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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Initial JSON Web Token Best Current Practices Draft
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Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 13:15:05 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/IlADQ0wdmjvjTv3kLmQvt1ZPRlE>
Subject: [Id-event] FW: Initial JSON Web Token Best Current Practices Draft
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[Sent as an FYI.  Please send responses to oauth@ietf.org.]

From: OAuth [mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jones
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 6:13 AM
To: oauth@ietf.org
Subject: [OAUTH-WG] Initial JSON Web Token Best Current Practices Draft

JSON Web Tokens (JWTs) and the JSON Object Signing and Encryption (JOSE) fu=
nctions underlying them are now being widely used in diverse sets of applic=
ations.  During IETF 98 in Chicago<https://ietf.org/meeting/98/>, we discus=
sed reports of people implementing and using JOSE and JWTs insecurely, the =
causes of these problems, and ways to address them.  Part of this discussio=
n was an invited JOSE/JWT Security Update<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/=
98/slides/slides-98-oauth-sessb-jwt-security-update-00.pdf> presentation th=
at I gave to two working groups, which included links to problem reports an=
d describes mitigations.  Citing the widespread use of JWTs in new IETF app=
lications, Security Area Director Kathleen Moriarty suggested during these =
discussions that a Best Current Practices (BCP) document be written for JSO=
N Web Tokens (JWTs).

I'm happy to report that Yaron Sheffer, Dick Hardt, and myself have produce=
d an initial draft of a JWT BCP.  Its abstract is:
JSON Web Tokens, also known as JWTs [RFC7519<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf=
c7519>], are URL-safe JSON-based security tokens that contain a set of clai=
ms that can be signed and/or encrypted. JWTs are being widely used and depl=
oyed as a simple security token format in numerous protocols and applicatio=
ns, both in the area of digital identity, and in other application areas. T=
he goal of this Best Current Practices document is to provide actionable gu=
idance leading to secure implementation and deployment of JWTs.

In Section 2, we describe threats and vulnerabilities.  In Section 3, we de=
scribe best practices addressing those threats and vulnerabilities.  We bel=
ieve that the best practices in Sections 3.1 through 3.8 are ready to apply=
 today.  Section 3.9 (Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for Different=
 Kinds of JWTs) describes several possible best practices on that topic to =
serve as a starting point for a discussion on which of them we want to reco=
mmend under what circumstances.

We invite input from the OAuth Working Group and other interested parties o=
n what best practices for JSON Web Tokens and the JOSE functions underlying=
 them should be.  We look forward to hearing your thoughts and working on t=
his specification together.

The specification is available at:

  *   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sheffer-oauth-jwt-bcp-00

An HTML-formatted version is also available at:

  *   http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-sheffer-oauth-jwt-bcp-00.html

                                                       -- Mike

P.S. This notice was also posted at http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 and a=
s @selfissued<https://twitter.com/selfissued>.

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ol
	{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
	{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">[Sent as an FYI.&nbsp;=
 Please send responses to oauth@ietf.org.]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#00=
2060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> OAuth [mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org] <=
b>On Behalf Of
</b>Mike Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 4, 2017 6:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> oauth@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OAUTH-WG] Initial JSON Web Token Best Current Practices Dr=
aft<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">JSON Web Tokens (JWTs) and the JSON Object Signing a=
nd Encryption (JOSE) functions underlying them are now being widely used in=
 diverse sets of applications.&nbsp; During
<a href=3D"https://ietf.org/meeting/98/">IETF 98 in Chicago</a>, we discuss=
ed reports of people implementing and using JOSE and JWTs insecurely, the c=
auses of these problems, and ways to address them.&nbsp; Part of this discu=
ssion was an invited
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-oauth-sessb=
-jwt-security-update-00.pdf">
JOSE/JWT Security Update</a> presentation that I gave to two working groups=
, which included links to problem reports and describes mitigations.&nbsp; =
Citing the widespread use of JWTs in new IETF applications, Security Area D=
irector Kathleen Moriarty suggested during
 these discussions that a Best Current Practices (BCP) document be written =
for JSON Web Tokens (JWTs).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m happy to report that Yaron Sheffer, Dick H=
ardt, and myself have produced an initial draft of a JWT BCP.&nbsp; Its abs=
tract is:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">JSON Web Tokens, also kno=
wn as JWTs [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519">RFC7519</a>], a=
re URL-safe JSON-based security tokens that contain a set of claims that ca=
n be signed and/or encrypted. JWTs are
 being widely used and deployed as a simple security token format in numero=
us protocols and applications, both in the area of digital identity, and in=
 other application areas. The goal of this Best Current Practices document =
is to provide actionable guidance
 leading to secure implementation and deployment of JWTs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Section 2, we describe threats and vulnerabilitie=
s.&nbsp; In Section 3, we describe best practices addressing those threats =
and vulnerabilities.&nbsp; We believe that the best practices in Sections 3=
.1 through 3.8 are ready to apply today.&nbsp; Section
 3.9 (Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for Different Kinds of JWTs) =
describes several possible best practices on that topic to serve as a start=
ing point for a discussion on which of them we want to recommend under what=
 circumstances.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We invite input from the OAuth Working Group and oth=
er interested parties on what best practices for JSON Web Tokens and the JO=
SE functions underlying them should be.&nbsp; We look forward to hearing yo=
ur thoughts and working on this specification
 together.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The specification is available at:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><=
a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sheffer-oauth-jwt-bcp-00">https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sheffer-oauth-jwt-bcp-00</a><o:p></o:p></li></=
ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An HTML-formatted version is also available at:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><=
a href=3D"http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-sheffer-oauth-jwt-bcp-00.html"=
>http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-sheffer-oauth-jwt-bcp-00.html</a><o:p><=
/o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P.S. This notice was also posted at <a href=3D"http:=
//self-issued.info/?p=3D1690">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a> and as <a href=3D"https://twitter.com=
/selfissued">
@selfissued</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CY4PR21MB0504A1A40A14747787EA8D93F5F50CY4PR21MB0504namp_--


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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 18:28:16 -0700
Message-ID: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id Tokens
and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not confuse
one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.

There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some cases
must be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending
SETs to an IdP.

With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
- both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
- "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
- "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in the same
SET
- "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the
disambiguation), please note "should" and not "must"

This solution also allows different profiles that define event types to
define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no
collisions or ambiguity.

Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud" claim.
This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
having the same claim name having different syntax in different token types
could lead to confusion.

And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that defines
a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also is not
solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is something the
JWT group should seriously consider.

Thoughts?

Marius

--001a1147e2a4704e0e05517ce3e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SET=
s from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations=
 will not confuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.<d=
iv><br></div><div>There is also another important requirement: the SET issu=
er in some cases must be different from the &quot;sub&quot; issuer. This is=
 the case of an RP sending SETs to an IdP.</div><div><br></div><div>With th=
ese requirements in mind I propose the following:</div><div>- both &quot;su=
b&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event level</div><div>- &q=
uot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can be different</div><di=
v>- &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different acr=
oss events in the same SET</div><div>- &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be presen=
t at the top SET level (this solves the disambiguation), please note &quot;=
should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>This solutio=
n also allows different profiles that define event types to define addition=
al claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and since all these c=
laims will be at the event level there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Another proposal (which I supported) was to define=
 a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving the requirement for=
 a distinct =C2=A0SET issuer. Also, having the same claim name having diffe=
rent syntax in different token types could lead to confusion.</div><div><br=
></div><div>And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs =
that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not practical in the short term, a=
nd it also is not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this=
 is something the JWT group should seriously consider.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Thoughts?</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signatu=
re" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
</div></div>

--001a1147e2a4704e0e05517ce3e1--


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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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+1

Phil

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote=
:
>=20
> There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id Tokens=
 and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not confuse=
 one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.
>=20
> There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some cases m=
ust be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SE=
Ts to an IdP.
>=20
> With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
> - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
> - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
> - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in the sam=
e SET
> - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the disamb=
iguation), please note "should" and not "must"
>=20
> This solution also allows different profiles that define event types to de=
fine additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and since=
 all these claims will be at the event level there will be no collisions or a=
mbiguity.
>=20
> Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud" claim=
. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also, havi=
ng the same claim name having different syntax in different token types coul=
d lead to confusion.
>=20
> And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that define=
s a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also is not solv=
ing the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is something the JWT g=
roup should seriously consider.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Marius
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
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=20


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From: "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:56:09 +0900
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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+1 especially for "type"

2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>:

> +1
>
> Phil
>
> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id
> Tokens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not
> confuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.
> >
> > There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some
> cases must be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP
> sending SETs to an IdP.
> >
> > With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
> > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
> > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
> > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in the
> same SET
> > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the
> disambiguation), please note "should" and not "must"
> >
> > This solution also allows different profiles that define event types to
> define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
> since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no
> collisions or ambiguity.
> >
> > Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud"
> claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer.
> Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in different token
> types could lead to confusion.
> >
> > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that
> defines a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also is
> not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is something
> the JWT group should seriously consider.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Marius
> > _______________________________________________
> > Id-event mailing list
> > Id-event@ietf.org
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 especially for &quot;type&quot;</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hun=
t (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">+1<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id To=
kens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not co=
nfuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some ca=
ses must be different from the &quot;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of =
an RP sending SETs to an IdP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the following:<br>
&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event =
level<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can be different=
<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different =
across events in the same SET<br>
&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET level (this sol=
ves the disambiguation), please note &quot;should&quot; and not &quot;must&=
quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that define event types t=
o define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and =
since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no collisio=
ns or ambiguity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite &quot;a=
ud&quot; claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SE=
T issuer. Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in diffe=
rent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that de=
fines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not practical in the short term, and it a=
lso is not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is som=
ething the JWT group should seriously consider.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Marius<br>
</div></div>&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Id-event mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
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<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
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><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 04:02:00 +0000
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens but I
now think this is a better plan.

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp> wrote:

> +1 especially for "type"
>
> 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id
>> Tokens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will n=
ot
>> confuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.
>> >
>> > There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some
>> cases must be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP
>> sending SETs to an IdP.
>> >
>> > With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
>> > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
>> > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
>> > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in the
>> same SET
>> > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the
>> disambiguation), please note "should" and not "must"
>> >
>> > This solution also allows different profiles that define event types t=
o
>> define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>> since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no
>> collisions or ambiguity.
>> >
>> > Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud"
>> claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer.
>> Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in different to=
ken
>> types could lead to confusion.
>> >
>> > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that
>> defines a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also i=
s
>> not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is somethi=
ng
>> the JWT group should seriously consider.
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Marius
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Id-event mailing list
>> > Id-event@ietf.org
>> >
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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>> Id-event@ietf.org
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
--=20
Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410

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<div><div dir=3D"auto">I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very sim=
ilar to id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.=C2=A0</div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>+1 especially for &quot;type&quot;</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">+1<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<div><div class=3D"m_-13076827127312175h5"><br>
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id To=
kens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not co=
nfuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some ca=
ses must be different from the &quot;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of =
an RP sending SETs to an IdP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the following:<br>
&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event =
level<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can be different=
<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different =
across events in the same SET<br>
&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET level (this sol=
ves the disambiguation), please note &quot;should&quot; and not &quot;must&=
quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that define event types t=
o define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and =
since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no collisio=
ns or ambiguity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite &quot;a=
ud&quot; claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SE=
T issuer. Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in diffe=
rent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that de=
fines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not practical in the short term, and it a=
lso is not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is som=
ething the JWT group should seriously consider.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Marius<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Id-event mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ=
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qXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div data-smartmail=
=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"line-height:1.5em;paddi=
ng-top:10px;margin-top:10px;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;bor=
der-color:rgb(213,15,37);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">Adam Dawes=C2=A0|<=
/span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-col=
or:rgb(51,105,232);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Sr. Product Manage=
r=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;b=
order-color:rgb(0,153,57);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</s=
pan><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color=
:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0+1 650-214-2410</spa=
n></div><br></div></div>

--001a11439efac8dcc505517f0862--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 04:59:30 +0000
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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--001a114064663d006905517fd6b0
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Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com> wrote:

> I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens but
> I now think this is a better plan.
>
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp> wrote:
>
>> +1 especially for "type"
>>
>> 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id
>>> Tokens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will =
not
>>> confuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.
>>> >
>>> > There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some
>>> cases must be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an R=
P
>>> sending SETs to an IdP.
>>> >
>>> > With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
>>> > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
>>> > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
>>> > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in th=
e
>>> same SET
>>> > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the
>>> disambiguation), please note "should" and not "must"
>>> >
>>> > This solution also allows different profiles that define event types
>>> to define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number)=
 and
>>> since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no
>>> collisions or ambiguity.
>>> >
>>> > Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud"
>>> claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer.
>>> Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in different t=
oken
>>> types could lead to confusion.
>>> >
>>> > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that
>>> defines a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also =
is
>>> not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is someth=
ing
>>> the JWT group should seriously consider.
>>> >
>>> > Thoughts?
>>> >
>>> > Marius
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Id-event mailing list
>>> > Id-event@ietf.org
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74=
AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhx=
WI&e=3D
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
> --
> Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--001a114064663d006905517fd6b0
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<div>Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
p://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a></div>=
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Ada=
m Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>I was initially a =
fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.=C2=A0</div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>O=
n Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.=
jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div>+1 especially for &quot;type&quot;</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil=
 Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>+1<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<div><div class=3D"m_2323378669772171350m_-13076827127312175h5"><br>
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id To=
kens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not co=
nfuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some ca=
ses must be different from the &quot;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of =
an RP sending SETs to an IdP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the following:<br>
&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event =
level<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can be different=
<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different =
across events in the same SET<br>
&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET level (this sol=
ves the disambiguation), please note &quot;should&quot; and not &quot;must&=
quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that define event types t=
o define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and =
since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no collisio=
ns or ambiguity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite &quot;a=
ud&quot; claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SE=
T issuer. Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in diffe=
rent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that de=
fines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not practical in the short term, and it a=
lso is not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is som=
ething the JWT group should seriously consider.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Marius<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Id-event mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ=
6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx=
BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp=
;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwV=
qXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div><div style=3D"line-height:1.5em;padding-top:10px;margin-top:10=
px;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=
=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37)=
;padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">Adam Dawes=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"bor=
der-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);paddi=
ng-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Sr. Product Manager=C2=A0|</span><span sty=
le=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57=
);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"borde=
r-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:15:37 -0700
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)

The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the mitigation is
in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for Different Kinds of
JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of required claims...", "Use
different keys for different kinds of JWTs." and "Use different issuers for
different kinds of JWTs.".

I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and safety.

Marius

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
> http://self-issued.info/?p=1690
>
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com> wrote:
>
>> I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens but
>> I now think this is a better plan.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 especially for "type"
>>>
>>> 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>:
>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id
>>>> Tokens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not
>>>> confuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.
>>>> >
>>>> > There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some
>>>> cases must be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP
>>>> sending SETs to an IdP.
>>>> >
>>>> > With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
>>>> > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
>>>> > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
>>>> > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in
>>>> the same SET
>>>> > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the
>>>> disambiguation), please note "should" and not "must"
>>>> >
>>>> > This solution also allows different profiles that define event types
>>>> to define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>>> since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no
>>>> collisions or ambiguity.
>>>> >
>>>> > Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud"
>>>> claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer.
>>>> Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in different token
>>>> types could lead to confusion.
>>>> >
>>>> > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that
>>>> defines a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also is
>>>> not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is something
>>>> the JWT group should seriously consider.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thoughts?
>>>> >
>>>> > Marius
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Id-event mailing list
>>>> > Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
>>>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=
>>>> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
>>>> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_
>>>> jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>> --
>> Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410
>> <(650)%20214-2410>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<div><br>=
</div><div>The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot; a=
nd the mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules =
for Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use different sets of=
 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for different kinds of =
JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.&qu=
ot;.</div><div><br></div><div>I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim w=
ould bring a lot of clarity and safety.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"=
gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div>Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690" target=3D"_blank">http://self-issued=
.info/?<wbr>p=3D1690</a></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>I was initially a fan =
of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens but I now think this is a b=
etter plan.=C2=A0</div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Th=
u, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" =
target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div>+1 especially for &quot;type&quot;</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil H=
unt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">+=
1<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<div><div class=3D"m_7518034514081663769m_2323378669772171350m_-13076827127=
312175h5"><br>
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id To=
kens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not co=
nfuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some ca=
ses must be different from the &quot;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of =
an RP sending SETs to an IdP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the following:<br>
&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event =
level<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can be different=
<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different =
across events in the same SET<br>
&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET level (this sol=
ves the disambiguation), please note &quot;should&quot; and not &quot;must&=
quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that define event types t=
o define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and =
since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no collisio=
ns or ambiguity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite &quot;a=
ud&quot; claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SE=
T issuer. Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in diffe=
rent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that de=
fines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not practical in the short term, and it a=
lso is not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is som=
ething the JWT group should seriously consider.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Marius<br>
</div></div>&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Id-event mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ=
6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr=
>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<wbr>jvg=
Xzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d0mxPQFJ=
LhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div><div style=3D"line-height:1.5em;padding-top:10px;margin-top:10=
px;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=
=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37)=
;padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">Adam Dawes=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"bor=
der-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);paddi=
ng-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Sr. Product Manager=C2=A0|</span><span sty=
le=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57=
);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"borde=
r-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding=
-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:(650)%20214-2410" value=3D"+1=
6502142410" target=3D"_blank"><wbr>+1 650-214-2410</a></span></div><br></di=
v></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
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r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div></div></div><div dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on=
!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113fc3eed91b640551caa988--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:18:43 -0700
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
3.9.

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
> The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the mitigation is
> in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for Different Kinds of
> JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of required claims...", "Use
> different keys for different kinds of JWTs." and "Use different issuers for
> different kinds of JWTs.".
>
> I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and safety.
>
> Marius
>
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>> http://self-issued.info/?p=1690
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens
>>> but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp> wrote:
>>>
>>>> +1 especially for "type"
>>>>
>>>> 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id
>>>>> Tokens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not
>>>>> confuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some
>>>>> cases must be different from the "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP
>>>>> sending SETs to an IdP.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > With these requirements in mind I propose the following:
>>>>> > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event level
>>>>> > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can be different
>>>>> > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different across events in
>>>>> the same SET
>>>>> > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET level (this solves the
>>>>> disambiguation), please note "should" and not "must"
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This solution also allows different profiles that define event types
>>>>> to define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>>>> since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no
>>>>> collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite "aud"
>>>>> claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer.
>>>>> Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in different token
>>>>> types could lead to confusion.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that
>>>>> defines a "type". This is not practical in the short term, and it also is
>>>>> not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is something
>>>>> the JWT group should seriously consider.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thoughts?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Marius
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Id-event mailing list
>>>>> > Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iet
>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
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>>>>> g&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410
>>> <(650)%20214-2410>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>
>


-- 
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on wha=
t should be in 3.9.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@=
google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<div><br></div><d=
iv>The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot; and the m=
itigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for Diff=
erent Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use different sets of require=
d claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for different kinds of JWTs.&qu=
ot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.&quot;.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bri=
ng a lot of clarity and safety.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span=
 class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=
=3D"m_-5146950719019161365gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatur=
e">Marius</div></div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div>Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690" target=3D"_blank">http://self-issued=
.info/?p<wbr>=3D1690</a></div><div><div class=3D"m_-5146950719019161365h5">=
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Ada=
m Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@g=
oogle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v>I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to id tokens but=
 I now think this is a better plan.=C2=A0</div></div><div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>+1 especially for &quot;type&quo=
t;</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-0=
9 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">+1<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<div><div class=3D"m_-5146950719019161365m_7518034514081663769m_23233786697=
72171350m_-13076827127312175h5"><br>
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to distinguish SETs from Id To=
kens and Access Tokens in such a way that naive implementations will not co=
nfuse one for the other and open up security vulnerabilities.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the SET issuer in some ca=
ses must be different from the &quot;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of =
an RP sending SETs to an IdP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the following:<br>
&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event =
level<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can be different=
<br>
&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different =
across events in the same SET<br>
&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET level (this sol=
ves the disambiguation), please note &quot;should&quot; and not &quot;must&=
quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that define event types t=
o define additional claims related to sub (like email or phone_number) and =
since all these claims will be at the event level there will be no collisio=
ns or ambiguity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to define a composite &quot;a=
ud&quot; claim. This is not solving the requirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SE=
T issuer. Also, having the same claim name having different syntax in diffe=
rent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new claim for JWTs that de=
fines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not practical in the short term, and it a=
lso is not solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think this is som=
ething the JWT group should seriously consider.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Marius<br>
</div></div>&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Id-event mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ=
6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<=
wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;<wbr>r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJ=
xPEivz<wbr>jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp<wbr>74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiH=
qWgfxqm<wbr>g&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88<wbr>YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;=
e=3D</a><br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div><div style=3D"line-height:1.5em;padding-top:10px;margin-top:10=
px;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=
=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37)=
;padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">Adam Dawes=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"bor=
der-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);paddi=
ng-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Sr. Product Manager=C2=A0|</span><span sty=
le=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57=
);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"borde=
r-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding=
-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:(650)%20214-2410" value=3D"+1=
6502142410" target=3D"_blank"><wbr>+1 650-214-2410</a></span></div><br></di=
v></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div></div></div><div dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on=
!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 23:01:44 +0000
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References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From nobody Tue Jun 13 02:15:53 2017
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:09:52 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Hello,

quick question.

Are you thinking about a more traditional content-type or an 
information-type as can be found in:

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mile-rolie-07#section-7.1.2

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
> 
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
> 
> ·We can’t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually 
> exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing 
> this requires a “fail on an unrecognized claim” approach to ensure that 
> JWTs from some future spec can’t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
> 
> ·It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the “different 
> keys for different kinds of JWTs” rule. Whether mandated by the spec or 
> not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier 
> than managing N different keys.
> 
> ·Ditto for “aud” and “iss” claims.
> 
> +1 for a “type” or “usage” claim/header parameter.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> 
> Identity Services
> 
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt 
> <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID 
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" 
> <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and 
> distinct SET issuer
> 
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 
> 3.9.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
> 
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
> 
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
> 
> 
>     Marius
> 
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=1690
> 
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
> 
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
> 
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
> 
>                 +1 especially for "type"
> 
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
> 
>                     +1
> 
>                     Phil
> 
> 
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
> 
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
> 
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> 
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> 
>             -- 
> 
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
> 
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> 
>         -- 
> 
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to
>         learn about projects I am working on!
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn 
> about projects I am working on!
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> 


From nobody Tue Jun 13 02:18:49 2017
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Message-ID: <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:11:28 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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And a 2nd question.

What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via 
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?

Henk

On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
> 
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
> 
> ·We can’t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually 
> exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing 
> this requires a “fail on an unrecognized claim” approach to ensure that 
> JWTs from some future spec can’t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
> 
> ·It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the “different 
> keys for different kinds of JWTs” rule. Whether mandated by the spec or 
> not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier 
> than managing N different keys.
> 
> ·Ditto for “aud” and “iss” claims.
> 
> +1 for a “type” or “usage” claim/header parameter.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> 
> Identity Services
> 
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt 
> <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID 
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" 
> <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and 
> distinct SET issuer
> 
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 
> 3.9.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
> 
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
> 
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
> 
> 
>     Marius
> 
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=1690
> 
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
> 
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
> 
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
> 
>                 +1 especially for "type"
> 
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
> 
>                     +1
> 
>                     Phil
> 
> 
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
> 
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
> 
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> 
>                 _______________________________________________
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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Yes and no. We have an event type uri attribute that indicates content. It d=
efines the type of event and enables a payload json object to be attached.=20=


IOW, SET's type Works  differently.=20


Phil

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.d=
e> wrote:
>=20
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend=
", "audience", and "scope"?
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>> Thanks for putting this together!
>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing th=
is requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from=
 a current spec.
>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated b=
y the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.
>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>> --=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID E=
vents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.=
com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dist=
inct SET issuer
>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3=
.9.
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>    Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>    The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>    mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>>    Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>    required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>    JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>>    I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>>    safety.
>>    Marius
>>    On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>        Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>        https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D24GdxYmg1CIzVq_K__5ina=
EWYG6ZrWzxu2Gu6_gAJ-0&s=3DTmPWehBYcEv9H3-5mfe8VNG0PBvicrwhiIHAjmjxXPk&e=3D  =
       On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>        <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>            I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>>            id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>            On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>>            <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>                +1 especially for "type"
>>                2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>>                    +1
>>                    Phil
>>                     > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>                    <mscurtescu@google.com
>>                    <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>                     >
>>                     > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>                    distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>>                    such a way that naive implementations will not
>>                    confuse one for the other and open up security
>>                    vulnerabilities.
>>                     >
>>                     > There is also another important requirement: the
>>                    SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>>                    "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>>                    to an IdP.
>>                     >
>>                     > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>                    following:
>>                     > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>>                    level
>>                     > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>>                    be different
>>                     > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>>                    across events in the same SET
>>                     > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>                    level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>>                    "should" and not "must"
>>                     >
>>                     > This solution also allows different profiles that
>>                    define event types to define additional claims
>>                    related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>                    since all these claims will be at the event level
>>                    there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>                     >
>>                     > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>                    define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>>                    the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>>                    having the same claim name having different syntax
>>                    in different token types could lead to confusion.
>>                     >
>>                     > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>>                    claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>                    practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>                    solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>>                    this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>                    consider.
>>                     >
>>                     > Thoughts?
>>                     >
>>                     > Marius
>>                     > _______________________________________________
>>                     > Id-event mailing list
>>                     > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                     >
>>                    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
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>>                    _______________________________________________
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siWdesV5yKZNS_Y&e=3D                 _______________________________________=
________
>>                Id-event mailing list
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>>                https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www=
.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQc=
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desV5yKZNS_Y&e=3D             --             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manage=
r |adawes@google.com
>>            <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>            <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>>            _______________________________________________
>>            Id-event mailing list
>>            Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>            https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
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g1CIzVq_K__5inaEWYG6ZrWzxu2Gu6_gAJ-0&s=3DfA3RYdeEvTH-Q-h8EvUi4V7WR6ZfsiWdesV=
5yKZNS_Y&e=3D         --         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <https://urldefe=
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_w_nM1IYCgx_YdFa43z1GxgdiJNE&e=3D > mail list to
>>        learn about projects I am working on!
>> --=20
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:05:15 -0700
Message-ID: <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?


"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
(access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security
event?)

"scope" is not used by SET.

I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?



>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>
>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>
>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutu=
ally exclusive
>> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this require=
s a
>> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that =
JWTs from some
>> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>
>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=
=9Cdifferent
>> keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the =
spec or
>> not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier th=
an
>> managing N different keys.
>>
>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>>
>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
>> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
>> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
>> 3.9.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>
>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>>
>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>>     safety.
>>
>>
>>     Marius
>>
>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>>
>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>
>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>
>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>
>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>>
>>                     +1
>>
>>                     Phil
>>
>>
>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>                      >
>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>                      >
>>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>>                     to an IdP.
>>                      >
>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>                     following:
>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>>                     level
>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>>                     be different
>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>>                     across events in the same SET
>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>                      >
>>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>>                     define event types to define additional claims
>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>                      >
>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>>                      >
>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>                     consider.
>>                      >
>>                      > Thoughts?
>>                      >
>>                      > Marius
>>
>>                      > _______________________________________________
>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                      >
>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
>> com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev
>> ent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&
>> r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp
>> 74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88
>> YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>             --
>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Id-event mailing list
>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>         --
>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to
>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?</blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target cli=
ent, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access =
or SET to communicate a security event?)</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;sco=
pe&quot; is not used by SET.</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t know what=
 do you mean by &quot;intend&quot; (or intent)?</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs fro=
m a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br></span><span class=3D"">
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br></span>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matak=
e.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Phil=
 Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br></span><span class=3D"">
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gma=
il.com</a><br></span><span class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://self-issued.inf=
o/?p=3D169<wbr>0</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adaw=
es@google.com</a><br></span><span class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">nov@matake.jp</a><br></span><span class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<span class=3D""=
><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
mscurtescu@google.com</a><br></span><div><div class=3D"h5">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<br></div></div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
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ank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
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br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ad=
awes@google.com</a><br></span><span class=3D"">
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"http:=
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--001a113ee31e4324a80551db48f0--


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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 00:33:27 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/igrwwt6Z-zqWGsoaJmoIDF4__PQ>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 20:16:42 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/_R3NKfAJ9gBBb4dLgcN8tr5nZD8>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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+1

Phil

> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.c=
om> wrote:
>=20
> Mike,
> =20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effe=
cts of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue=
. As a result, I see several issues with it:
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be ce=
rtain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the c=
aller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this probl=
em again.
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile tha=
t cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.
> =20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both=
 things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive me=
asure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution a=
ctually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9C=
usage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT pro=
file, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing L=
ist <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=80=
=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessima=
tion=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex,=
 without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
> =20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that the=
re=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s already b=
een established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an=
 ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/curre=
nt/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible with sp=
ecific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide s=
pecifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering cho=
ices on our part.
> =20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make p=
reviously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then=
 different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsin=
g code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more u=
nwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just creat=
e their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Sta=
ndards are only useful if they are actually used.
> =20
>                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard Bac=
kman, Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz=
@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=
=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Us=
age extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of=
 the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to acce=
pt a JWT being presented to it in some context.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu <=
mscurtescu@google.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.de> wrote:
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend=
", "audience", and "scope"?
> =20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (=
access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security e=
vent?)
> =20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
> =20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutual=
ly exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ens=
ure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a=
 current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cd=
ifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is e=
asier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header pa=
rameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick=
.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and disti=
nct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3=
.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D=
JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YK=
OCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>         --=20
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to
>         learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn abou=
t projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j=
746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=3D=
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utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>+1</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"=
><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 14, 2017=
, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amaz=
on.com">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effect=
s of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. A=
s a result, I see several issues
 with it:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1=
 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
Calibri"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri">The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be c=
ertain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the c=
aller passes the ID Token off to has
 no way to verify its provenance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1=
 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
Calibri"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri">Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this prob=
lem again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1=
 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><span st=
yle=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri">No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<=
/span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1=
 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><span st=
yle=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri">This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile t=
hat cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem=
.</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both t=
hings that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive meas=
ure against these risks. You brought up JWT
 libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common librar=
ies for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handl=
e disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each profi=
le would require unique logic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">From:=
 </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behal=
f of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">You=
=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=
=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessima=
tion=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex,=
 without data showing
 there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">Man=
datory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=
=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already b=
een established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused
 for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg0=
0428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10=
&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr=
5Xow&amp;e=3D">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</a>.&nb=
sp; If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of=
 Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so t=
hat we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">The=
 proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make pre=
viously simple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result
 is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custo=
m parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbs=
p; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are t=
o just create their own data structures.&nbsp;
 Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful i=
f they are actually used.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;c=
olor:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibr=
i">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> Id-=
event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:id-event-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkhol=
z@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">i=
d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9C=
intend=E2=80=9D?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usag=
e extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of t=
he JWT, and that a recipient may
 refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in s=
ome context.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">From:=
 </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behal=
f of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtesc=
u@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">i=
d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend",=
 "audience", and "scope"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not=
 the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to com=
municate a security event?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)=
?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually=
 exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this r=
equires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure=
 that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdif=
ferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by t=
he spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is ea=
sier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header para=
meter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">=
adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp=
" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9=
.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules=
 for<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds o=
f<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.=
".<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity=
 and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for J=
WT<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da=
7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a><b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping S=
ETS to be very similar to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is a=
 better plan.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM mat=
ake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.j=
p</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@m=
atake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "t=
ype"<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT=
+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br>=

<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distin=
guish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a=
 way that naive implementations will not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confus=
e one for the other and open up security<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulner=
abilities.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET is=
suer in some cases must be different from the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" i=
ssuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an I=
dP.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; follow=
ing:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be dif=
ferent<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across=
 events in the same SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (=
this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "shoul=
d" and not "must"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 event types to define additional claims<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relate=
d to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since a=
ll these claims will be at the event level<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there w=
ill be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the re=
quirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having=
 the same claim name having different syntax<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in dif=
ferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim f=
or JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; practi=
cal in the short term, and it also is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solvin=
g the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this i=
s something the JWT group should seriously<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consid=
er.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto=
:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D=
JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn=
88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_=
listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
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Cd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ______=
_________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-eve=
nt mailing list<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ____________________=
___________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing lis=
t<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Id=
-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://u=
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<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |=
<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawe=
s@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2=
B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank">+1 650-214-2410</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"tel:(650)%20214-241=
0">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; __________________________________=
_____________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:09:48 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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+1 to what Annabelle said.

Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to
an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.

Marius

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> +1
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-
> 2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_
> jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
=3D
>
>                     _______________________________________________
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>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWW=
s&e=3D>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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s&e=3D>
>
>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <(650)%20214-2410>>
>
>             _______________________________________________
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>
>         --
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
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>

--001a114495b6ae744a055202bd75
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 to what Annabelle said.<div><br></div><div>Also, Mike y=
ou are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The=
 iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.</div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>+1</div><div id=3D"m_90940892396685703=
12AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSi=
gnature">Phil</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25=
 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div>









<div class=3D"m_9094089239668570312WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>Mike,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effe=
cts of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issu=
e. As a result, I see several issues
 with it:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">T=
he caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that =
a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller pass=
es the ID Token off to has
 no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">A=
ny future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Calibri"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">N=
o other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Calibri"><span>4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">T=
his is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares ab=
out disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.</span><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both=
 things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive m=
easure against these risks. You brought up JWT
 libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common libra=
ries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could han=
dle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each pr=
ofile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">F=
rom: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.=
org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@s=
it.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">Yo=
u=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pes=
simation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple com=
plex, without data showing
 there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">Ma=
ndatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that there=
=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s alrea=
dy been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused
 for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_ms=
g00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPK=
HshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lg=
c6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.h=
tml</a>.=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with speci=
fic kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide sp=
ecifics, so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">Th=
e proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make=
 previously simple things unnecessarily complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result
 is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that cust=
om parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.=
=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers=
 are to just create their own data structures.=C2=A0
 Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful =
if they are actually used.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;=
color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calib=
ri">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> I=
d-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mai=
lto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=
=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Us=
age extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose o=
f the JWT, and that a recipient may
 refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in=
 some context.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"=
>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">F=
rom: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.=
org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@=
google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target clie=
nt, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access o=
r SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&qu=
ot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:n=
ov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing Li=
st &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake=
.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google=
.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"mail=
to:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVq=
XoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP=
EivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<wbr>jvgXzua6mi=
RiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d0mxPQFJLhxWI&a=
mp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
ent mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9u=
gLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing li=
st<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JP=
KHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oM=
U7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</=
a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adaw=
es@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:=
%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank">+1 650-214-2410</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"tel:(650)%20214-24=
10" target=3D"_blank">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
r>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id=
-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwM=
GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3=
zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt; mail list to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehY=
vlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://hardtw=
are.com/</a>&gt; mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"h5"><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span>=
<br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br></div></div><sp=
an><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ie=
tf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKF=
ZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_lis=
tinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlN=
Ke4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>00Y_3zRoai115c&am=
p;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a> </=
span><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114495b6ae744a055202bd75--


From nobody Thu Jun 15 12:08:47 2017
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:08:26 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com> <1EE56A12-E2A2-400D-A561-8C6818C8BAA9@amazon.com> <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/fISRD1yH44fPL4aMTlp6jTJkXAY>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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+1 to this as well.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>=20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> +1
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> Mike,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side =
effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve =
this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>=20
>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.
>>=20
>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.
>>=20
>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>>=20
>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are =
both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>=20
>> Identity Services
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  =
I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems =
that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s=
 already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, =
would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then =
the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this =
is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                 -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 =
Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>=20
>> Identity Services
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> And a 2nd question.
>>=20
>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended =
usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Henk
>>=20
>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>=20
>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>=20
>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>=20
>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>=20
>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>=20
>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>>=20
>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>>=20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>=20
>> Identity Services
>>=20
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, =
"matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>=20
>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be =
in 3.9.
>>=20
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com> =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>=20
>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>=20
>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules =
for
>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>>=20
>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity =
and
>>     safety.
>>=20
>>=20
>>     Marius
>>=20
>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>=20
>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>>=20
>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar =
to
>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>=20
>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>>=20
>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>=20
>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>=20
>>                     +1
>>=20
>>                     Phil
>>=20
>>=20
>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>                      >
>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens =
in
>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>                      >
>>                      > There is also another important requirement: =
the
>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from =
the
>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending =
SETs
>>                     to an IdP.
>>                      >
>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>                     following:
>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event
>>                     level
>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level =
can
>>                     be different
>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>>                     across events in the same SET
>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note
>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>                      >
>>                      > This solution also allows different profiles =
that
>>                     define event types to define additional claims
>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>                      >
>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>>                     having the same claim name having different =
syntax
>>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>>                      >
>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a =
new
>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I =
think
>>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>                     consider.
>>                      >
>>                      > Thoughts?
>>                      >
>>                      > Marius
>>=20
>>                      > =
_______________________________________________
>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>=20
>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>                      >
>>                     =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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xWI&e=3D>
>>=20
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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>>=20
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>=20
>>             --=20
>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 =
650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:(650)%20214-2410>>
>>=20
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Id-event mailing list
>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
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>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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WWs&e=3D>
>>=20
>>         --=20
>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
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>> _______________________________________________
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--Apple-Mail=_6D77A46C-DE33-4312-A31D-06BEF9418500
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">+1 to this as well.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle said.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, Mike you are =
missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The =
iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 =
PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">+1</div><div =
id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">









<div class=3D"m_9094089239668570312WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">Mike,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues
 with it:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has
 no way to verify its provenance.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span class=3D"">3.<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span class=3D"">4.<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">We know from experience that naming collisions and replay =
attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a =
simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT
 libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common =
libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library =
could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status =
quo each profile would require unique logic.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" class=3D"">From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D"">=

<b class=3D"">To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve =
heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d =
characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature =
pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing
 there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">Mandatory =
solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99=
s no evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already =
been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused
 for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr =
class=3D"">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr =
class=3D"">msg00428.html</a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">The proposed =
=E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make =
previously simple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the =
result
 is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that =
custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT =
parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely =
developers are to just create their own data structures.&nbsp;
 Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only =
useful if they are actually used.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""> Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr class=3D"">org</a>]
<b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">Echoing =
Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the =
X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the =
intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may
 refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it =
in some context.</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" class=3D"">From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>=

</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"aud" (audience) specifies the =
target client, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize =
resource access or SET to communicate a security event?)<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"scope" is not used by SET.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don't know what do you mean by =
"intend" (or intent)?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Henk<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this =
together!<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Identity Services<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in =
3.9.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and =
the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation =
Rules for<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets =
of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different =
kinds of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of =
JWTs.".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of =
clarity and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID =
for JWT<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr class=3D"">1690</a><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of =
keeping SETS to be very similar to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this =
is a better plan.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM =
matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially =
for "type"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 =
GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr class=3D"">:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
+1<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Phil<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
such a way that naive implementations will not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
confuse one for the other and open up security<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br class=3D"">=

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
"sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to =
an IdP.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
following:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
level<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be =
different<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
across events in the same SET<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
level (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
"should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
define event types to define additional claims<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
related to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
since all these claims will be at the event level<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
the requirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
having the same claim name having different syntax<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in =
different token types could lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
practical in the short term, and it also is not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
this is something the JWT group should seriously<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
consider.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; ______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">
Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 23:45:06 +0300
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:

Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for 
"sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.

Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) 
that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.

Did I miss anything?

By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the 
SET document before it is published.

Thanks,

     Yaron


On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
> +1 to this as well.
>
>  — Justin
>
>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>>
>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send 
>> events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this 
>> case.
>>
>> Marius
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) 
>> <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     +1
>>
>>     Phil
>>
>>     On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>     Mike,
>>>
>>>     Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon
>>>     side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not
>>>     designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues
>>>     with it:
>>>
>>>     1.The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
>>>     certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any
>>>     party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to
>>>     verify its provenance.
>>>
>>>     2.Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
>>>     problem again.
>>>
>>>     3.No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce” claim.
>>>
>>>     4.This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
>>>     that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution
>>>     to the problem.
>>>
>>>     We know from experience that naming collisions and replay
>>>     attacks are both things that happen. What’s being proposed is a
>>>     simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought up
>>>     JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to
>>>     use common libraries for JWT parsing. A “usage-aware” JWT
>>>     library could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas
>>>     with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>
>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>
>>>     Identity Services
>>>
>>>     *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones
>>>     <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>     *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>     *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>     *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com
>>>     <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List
>>>     <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz
>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion
>>>     and distinct SET issuer
>>>
>>>     You’ve heard of “premature optimization”.  I’d characterize the
>>>     proposals in this thread as “premature pessimation” – making
>>>     things that can and should be simple complex, without data
>>>     showing there’s any need to do so.
>>>
>>>     Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to
>>>     problems that there’s no evidence that we actually even have. 
>>>     It’s already been established that it’s impossible for a SET to
>>>     be confused for an ID Token – see
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=eKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=>. 
>>>     If people have data showing that this is possible with specific
>>>     kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please
>>>     provide specifics, so that we can use that data to inform
>>>     appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>>
>>>     The proposed “solutions”, such as prohibiting the use of “sub”
>>>     in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make
>>>     previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the
>>>     result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of
>>>     this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather
>>>     than a standard JWT parser. The more unwieldy we make it to use
>>>     SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
>>>     data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption. 
>>>     Standards are only useful if they are actually used.
>>>
>>>                       -- Mike
>>>
>>>     *From:*Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard
>>>     Backman, Annabelle
>>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>     *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz
>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>     *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org
>>>     <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion
>>>     and distinct SET issuer
>>>
>>>     Echoing Marius’s question: can you explain what you mean by
>>>     “intend”?
>>>
>>>     To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the
>>>     X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares
>>>     the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer
>>>     to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to
>>>     it in some context.
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>
>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>
>>>     Identity Services
>>>
>>>     *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius
>>>     Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>     *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>     *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>     *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org
>>>     <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion
>>>     and distinct SET issuer
>>>
>>>     On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz
>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         And a 2nd question.
>>>
>>>         What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not
>>>         covered via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>
>>>     "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the
>>>     intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET
>>>     to communicate a security event?)
>>>
>>>     "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>
>>>     I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         Henk
>>>
>>>         On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>
>>>             Thanks for putting this together!
>>>
>>>             I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>
>>>             ·We can’t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a
>>>             mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header
>>>             parameters, and enforcing this requires a “fail on an
>>>             unrecognized claim” approach to ensure that JWTs from
>>>             some future spec can’t be mistaken for JWTs from a
>>>             current spec.
>>>
>>>             ·It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to
>>>             the “different keys for different kinds of JWTs” rule.
>>>             Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will
>>>             ignore this because managing one key is easier than
>>>             managing N different keys.
>>>
>>>             ·Ditto for “aud” and “iss” claims.
>>>
>>>             +1 for a “type” or “usage” claim/header parameter.
>>>
>>>             -- 
>>>
>>>             Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>
>>>             Identity Services
>>>
>>>             *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>             <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick
>>>             Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>             *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>             *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>             *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, nov"
>>>             <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events
>>>             Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org
>>>             <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)"
>>>             <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>             *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>             confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>
>>>             Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on
>>>             what should be in 3.9.
>>>
>>>             On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>>             <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com
>>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>
>>>                 The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion"
>>>             and the
>>>                 mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive
>>>             Validation Rules for
>>>                 Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use
>>>             different sets of
>>>                 required claims...", "Use different keys for
>>>             different kinds of
>>>                 JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different
>>>             kinds of JWTs.".
>>>
>>>                 I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot
>>>             of clarity and
>>>                 safety.
>>>
>>>
>>>                 Marius
>>>
>>>                 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt
>>>             <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>                 <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>>             <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>             http://self-issued.info/?p=1690
>>>             <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=>
>>>
>>>                     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes
>>>             <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>                     <mailto:adawes@google.com
>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                         I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be
>>>             very similar to
>>>                         id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>
>>>                         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov
>>>             <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>                         <mailto:nov@matake.jp
>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                             +1 especially for "type"
>>>
>>>                             2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>                             <phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>             <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>             <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>             <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>
>>>                                 +1
>>>
>>>                                 Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>                                  > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM,
>>>             Marius Scurtescu
>>>                                 <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>
>>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com
>>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>              >
>>>              > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>>             distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>>>                                 such a way that naive
>>>             implementations will not
>>>             confuse one for the other and open up security
>>>             vulnerabilities.
>>>              >
>>>              > There is also another important requirement: the
>>>                                 SET issuer in some cases must be
>>>             different from the
>>>             "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>>>                                 to an IdP.
>>>              >
>>>              > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>>             following:
>>>              > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>>>             level
>>>              > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>>>                                 be different
>>>              > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>>>             across events in the same SET
>>>              > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>>             level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>>>             "should" and not "must"
>>>              >
>>>              > This solution also allows different profiles that
>>>             define event types to define additional claims
>>>             related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>>             since all these claims will be at the event level
>>>             there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>              >
>>>              > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>>             define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>>>                                 the requirement for a distinct  SET
>>>             issuer. Also,
>>>             having the same claim name having different syntax
>>>                                 in different token types could lead
>>>             to confusion.
>>>              >
>>>              > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>>>             claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>>             practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>>             solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>>>                                 this is something the JWT group
>>>             should seriously
>>>             consider.
>>>              >
>>>              > Thoughts?
>>>              >
>>>              > Marius
>>>
>>>              > _______________________________________________
>>>              > Id-event mailing list
>>>
>>>                                > Id-event@ietf.org
>>>             <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org
>>>             <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>                                  >
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>>>
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>>>
>>>             _______________________________________________
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>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>             <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>             <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>
>>>                         --
>>>                         Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager
>>>             |adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>                         <mailto:adawes@google.com
>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 650-214-2410
>>>             <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>                         <tel:(650)%20214-2410
>>>             <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>                     --
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>>>
>>
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    <p>So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:</p>
    <p>Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific
      rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.</p>
    <p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is
      taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Did I miss anything?</p>
    <p>By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it
      in the SET document before it is published.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Thanks,</p>
    <p>    Yaron<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C39@mit.edu">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      +1 to this as well.
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""> — Justin</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
        <div>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div class="">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu
              &lt;<a href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=""
                moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class="">
              <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
                charset=utf-8" class="">
              <div dir="ltr" class="">+1 to what Annabelle said.
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Also, Mike you are missing the other
                  requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The
                  iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.</div>
              </div>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="" clear="all">
                <div class="">
                  <div class="gmail_signature"
                    data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Marius</div>
                </div>
                <br class="">
                <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33
                  PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir="ltr" class="">&lt;<a
                      href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target="_blank"
                      class="" moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br class="">
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="auto" class="">
                      <div class="">+1</div>
                      <div id="m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"
                        class=""><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div id="m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"
                        class="">Phil</div>
                      <div class="">
                        <div class="h5">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                            On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard
                            Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                              target="_blank" class=""
                              moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:<br class="">
                            <br class="">
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                            <div class="">
                              <div
                                class="m_9094089239668570312WordSection1">
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">Mike,</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">Your explanation for why
                                    this is a non-problem is dependent
                                    upon side effects of elements of
                                    OpenID Connect that were not
                                    designed to solve this issue. As a
                                    result, I see several issues with
                                    it:</span></p>
                                <p
                                  class="m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=""><span class="">1.<span
                                        style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times
                                        New Roman&quot;" class="">      
                                      </span></span></span><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">The caller of the Token
                                    Endpoint is the only party that can
                                    be certain that a nonce-less ID
                                    Token is really an ID Token. Any
                                    party that the caller passes the ID
                                    Token off to has no way to verify
                                    its provenance.</span></p>
                                <p
                                  class="m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=""><span class="">2.<span
                                        style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times
                                        New Roman&quot;" class="">      
                                      </span></span></span><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">Any future ID Token
                                    distribution method needs to solve
                                    this problem again.</span></p>
                                <p
                                  class="m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri" class=""><span
                                      class="">3.<span style="font:7.0pt
                                        &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"
                                        class="">     
                                      </span></span></span><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">No other profile of JWT can
                                    ever use the "nonce” claim.</span><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri" class=""></span></p>
                                <p
                                  class="m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri" class=""><span
                                      class="">4.<span style="font:7.0pt
                                        &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"
                                        class="">     
                                      </span></span></span><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">This is only a solution for
                                    ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
                                    that cares about disambiguation has
                                    to invent its own solution to the
                                    problem.</span><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri" class=""></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">We know from experience
                                    that naming collisions and replay
                                    attacks are both things that happen.
                                    What’s being proposed is a simple,
                                    defensive measure against these
                                    risks. You brought up JWT libraries:
                                    a general solution actually makes it
                                    easier to use common libraries for
                                    JWT parsing. A “usage-aware” JWT
                                    library could handle disambiguation
                                    for any JWT profile, whereas with
                                    the status quo each profile would
                                    require unique logic.</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Identity Services</p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                  #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                  0in" class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span
                                        style="font-family: Calibri;"
                                        class="">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style="font-family:
                                      Calibri;" class="">Id-event &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                      June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">To: </b>Marius
                                      Scurtescu &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">Cc: </b>"Richard
                                      Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                      ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                      Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr
                                          class="">de</a>&gt;<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class="">You’ve heard of “premature
                                    optimization”.  I’d characterize the
                                    proposals in this thread as
                                    “premature pessimation” – making
                                    things that can and should be simple
                                    complex, without data showing
                                    there’s any need to do so.</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class="">Mandatory solutions are
                                    being proposed in this thread to
                                    problems that there’s no evidence
                                    that we actually even have.  It’s
                                    already been established that it’s
                                    impossible for a SET to be confused
                                    for an ID Token – see <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=eKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e="
                                      target="_blank" class=""
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">
                                      https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr
                                        class="">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr
                                        class="">msg00428.html</a>.  If
                                    people have data showing that this
                                    is possible with specific kinds of
                                    Access Tokens or other real JWT
                                    deployments, please provide
                                    specifics, so that we can use that
                                    data to inform appropriate
                                    engineering choices on our part.</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class="">The proposed “solutions”,
                                    such as prohibiting the use of “sub”
                                    in the normal way, or requiring a
                                    type claim, would make previously
                                    simple things unnecessarily
                                    complex.  Yes, then the result is
                                    then different than a normal JWT but
                                    a consequence of this is that custom
                                    parsing code would have to be used,
                                    rather than a standard JWT parser. 
                                    The more unwieldy we make it to use
                                    SETs, the more likely developers are
                                    to just create their own data
                                    structures.  Keeping it simple is
                                    the key to adoption.  Standards are
                                    only useful if they are actually
                                    used.</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class="">                              <wbr
                                      class="">                  -- Mike</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#002060"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <div class="">
                                  <div
                                    style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                    #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                    0in" class="">
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class="">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=""> Id-event [<a
                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank" class=""
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr
                                            class="">org</a>]
                                        <b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Richard
                                        Backman, Annabelle<br class="">
                                        <b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday,
                                        June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br
                                          class="">
                                        <b class="">To:</b> Marius
                                        Scurtescu &lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                          target="_blank" class=""
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;;
                                        Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                          target="_blank" class=""
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr
                                            class="">de</a>&gt;<br
                                          class="">
                                        <b class="">Cc:</b> ID Events
                                        Mailing List &lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank" class=""
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br
                                          class="">
                                        <b class="">Subject:</b> Re:
                                        [Id-event] solution for
                                        Id/Access Token confusion and
                                        distinct SET issuer</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">Echoing Marius’s question:
                                    can you explain what you mean by
                                    “intend”?</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class="">To your first question, I
                                    think a better analogy would be the
                                    X.509 Key Usage extension: a
                                    multi-valued property that declares
                                    the intended purpose of the JWT, and
                                    that a recipient may refer to when
                                    determining whether to accept a JWT
                                    being presented to it in some
                                    context.</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Identity Services</p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"
                                    class=""> </span></p>
                                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                  #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                  0in" class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span
                                        style="font-family: Calibri;"
                                        class="">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style="font-family:
                                      Calibri;" class="">Id-event &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">Date: </b>Tuesday,
                                      June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">To: </b>Henk Birkholz
                                      &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr
                                          class="">de</a>&gt;<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">Cc: </b>ID Events
                                      Mailing List &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank" class=""
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br
                                        class="">
                                      <b class="">Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <div class="">
                                  <div class="">
                                    <div class="">
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun
                                        13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk
                                        Birkholz &lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                          target="_blank" class=""
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr
                                            class="">de</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
                                        class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">And a 2nd
                                          question.<br class="">
                                          <br class="">
                                          What semantics would "usage"
                                          provide that that are not
                                          covered via "intend",
                                          "audience", and "scope"?</p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">"aud"
                                          (audience) specifies the
                                          target client, but not the
                                          intended usage (access token
                                          to authorize resource access
                                          or SET to communicate a
                                          security event?)</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">"scope" is
                                          not used by SET.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">I don't
                                          know what do you mean by
                                          "intend" (or intent)?</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
                                        class="">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><br
                                            class="">
                                          <br class="">
                                          Henk<br class="">
                                          <br class="">
                                          On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM,
                                          Richard Backman, Annabelle
                                          wrote:</p>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                          #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                          0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
                                          class="">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks
                                            for putting this together!<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            I think the assumptions
                                            inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            ·We can’t guarantee that
                                            every type of JWT will have
                                            a mutually exclusive set of
                                            valid claims and/or header
                                            parameters, and enforcing
                                            this requires a “fail on an
                                            unrecognized claim” approach
                                            to ensure that JWTs from
                                            some future spec can’t be
                                            mistaken for JWTs from a
                                            current spec.<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            ·It is unrealistic to expect
                                            implementers to adhere to
                                            the “different keys for
                                            different kinds of JWTs”
                                            rule. Whether mandated by
                                            the spec or not,
                                            implementers will ignore
                                            this because managing one
                                            key is easier than managing
                                            N different keys.<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            ·Ditto for “aud” and “iss”
                                            claims.<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            +1 for a “type” or “usage”
                                            claim/header parameter.<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            -- <br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            Annabelle Richard Backman<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            Identity Services<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            *From: *Id-event &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                            on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a
href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br
                                              class="">
                                            *Date: *Monday, June 12,
                                            2017 at 3:18 PM<br class="">
                                            *To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br
                                              class="">
                                            *Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                            "matake, nov" &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;,
                                            ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                            "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br
                                              class="">
                                            *Subject: *Re: [Id-event]
                                            solution for Id/Access Token
                                            confusion and distinct SET
                                            issuer<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            Agreed. Note that there is
                                            still lots of discussion on
                                            what should be in 3.9.<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15
                                            PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a
                                              href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr
                                              class="">&gt; wrote:<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                Thanks for the pointer
                                            Dick, very good timing :-)<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                The issue is described
                                            by "2.7. Cross-JWT
                                            Confusion" and the<br
                                              class="">
                                                mitigation is in "3.9.
                                            Use Mutually Exclusive
                                            Validation Rules for<br
                                              class="">
                                                Different Kinds of
                                            JWTs", specifically "Use
                                            different sets of<br
                                              class="">
                                                required claims...",
                                            "Use different keys for
                                            different kinds of<br
                                              class="">
                                                JWTs." and "Use
                                            different issuers for
                                            different kinds of JWTs.".<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                I still think that a
                                            "type" claim would bring a
                                            lot of clarity and<br
                                              class="">
                                                safety.<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                Marius<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at
                                            9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br
                                              class="">
                                                &lt;mailto:<a
                                              href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                    Yaron, Mike and I
                                            just published an BCP ID for
                                            JWT<br class="">
                                                    <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e="
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">http://self-issued.info/?p=<wbr
                                                class="">1690</a><br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                    On Thu, Jun 8, 2017
                                            at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a
href="mailto:adawes@google.com" target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">adawes@google.com</a><br
                                              class="">
                                                    &lt;mailto:<a
                                              href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                        I was initially
                                            a fan of keeping SETS to be
                                            very similar to<br class="">
                                                        id tokens but I
                                            now think this is a better
                                            plan.<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                        On Thu, Jun 8,
                                            2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov
                                            &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">nov@matake.jp</a><br
                                              class="">
                                                        &lt;mailto:<a
                                              href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                            +1
                                            especially for "type"<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                            2017-06-09
                                            10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt
                                            (IDM)<br class="">
                                                            &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a
                                              href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr
                                              class="">:<br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                                +1<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                                Phil<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                                                 &gt; On
                                            Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM,
                                            Marius Scurtescu<br class="">
                                                                &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                              target="_blank" class=""
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a></p>
                                          <div class="">
                                            <div class="">
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">     
                                                             
                                                &lt;mailto:<a
                                                  href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  class=""
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr
                                                  class="">&gt; wrote:<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; There were a
                                                couple of proposals on
                                                how to<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                distinguish SETs from Id
                                                Tokens and Access Tokens
                                                in<br class="">
                                                                    such
                                                a way that naive
                                                implementations will not<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                confuse one for the
                                                other and open up
                                                security<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                vulnerabilities.<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; There is also
                                                another important
                                                requirement: the<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                    SET
                                                issuer in some cases
                                                must be different from
                                                the<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                "sub" issuer. This is
                                                the case of an RP
                                                sending SETs<br class="">
                                                                    to
                                                an IdP.<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; With these
                                                requirements in mind I
                                                propose the<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                following:<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; - both "sub" and
                                                "iss" to be defined at
                                                the event<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                level<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; - "iss" at event
                                                level and at top SET
                                                level can<br class="">
                                                                    be
                                                different<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; - "iss" and "sub"
                                                at event level can be
                                                different<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                across events in the
                                                same SET<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; - "sub" should NOT
                                                be present at the top
                                                SET<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                level (this solves the
                                                disambiguation), please
                                                note<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                "should" and not "must"<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; This solution also
                                                allows different
                                                profiles that<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                define event types to
                                                define additional claims<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                related to sub (like
                                                email or phone_number)
                                                and<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                since all these claims
                                                will be at the event
                                                level<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                there will be no
                                                collisions or ambiguity.<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; Another proposal
                                                (which I supported) was
                                                to<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                define a composite "aud"
                                                claim. This is not
                                                solving<br class="">
                                                                    the
                                                requirement for a
                                                distinct  SET issuer.
                                                Also,<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                having the same claim
                                                name having different
                                                syntax<br class="">
                                                                    in
                                                different token types
                                                could lead to confusion.<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; And yet another
                                                proposal was to
                                                introduce a new<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                claim for JWTs that
                                                defines a "type". This
                                                is not<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                practical in the short
                                                term, and it also is not<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                solving the distinct
                                                issuer requirement, but
                                                I think<br class="">
                                                                    this
                                                is something the JWT
                                                group should seriously<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                consider.<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; Thoughts?<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;<br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; Marius<br class="">
                                                <br class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt;
                                                ______________________________<wbr
                                                  class="">_________________<br
                                                  class="">
                                                                   
                                                 &gt; Id-event mailing
                                                list</p>
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                                                        -- <br class="">
                                                        Adam Dawes | Sr.
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 21:06:52 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/PuVUdhLarPr7NR7ugaL25pPGoMA>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Comments in line.=20

Phil

> On Jun 17, 2017, at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I h=
ave a lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply=
, because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and be=
lieve it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to a=
ct upon them.  Specifically:
> =20
> I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.  Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many o=
thers agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.htm=
l#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D c=
laim in the normal way.  Prohibiting this usage would be a completely unnece=
ssary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logo=
ut token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this thread.

Mike we disagree on this.=20

I and others voted against the OpenId decision to move to implementer status=
 of OpenId because of this issue and others. Chiefly that secevents had open=
 issues that would cause breaking changes. =20

You indicated at OpenId as secretary that breaking changes by secevents woul=
d NOT be an issue.=20

We also disagree on the scope of use in logout. Recently you indicated we sh=
ould define yet another logout.=20

> =20
> (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1.  No further =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)

It is still an issue that issuer of the subject vs issuer of the token are c=
onfused.=20

We have this issue in ietf and openid as far as I am concerned because we ha=
ve cases that will issue app logout notices that are fyi's to the idp. Eg ap=
p logout vs sso logout.=20

If an app logs out the OP needs to know that the old id token is no good.=20=


> =20
> It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be use=
d for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should n=
ot be mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning=
.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9CN=
o other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  Thi=
s reflects a misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the *value* of the nonce that s=
elf-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is p=
resent.  Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D wit=
hout any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secu=
re random number.
> =20
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d b=
e glad to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or a=
ny other claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes=
 about as much sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, t=
he Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the cl=
aim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.  Yes, it will completely differen=
tiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it w=
ould certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to i=
nteroperability.
> =20
> From: Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.c=
om>
> Cc: Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>=20
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "su=
b" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>=20
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) tha=
t should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>=20
> Did I miss anything?
>=20
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SE=
T document before it is published.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>     Yaron
>=20
> =20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
> +1 to this as well.
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> =20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
> =20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events t=
o an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr=
ote:
> +1
> =20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.c=
om> wrote:
>=20
> Mike,
> =20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effe=
cts of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue=
. As a result, I see several issues with it:
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be ce=
rtain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the c=
aller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this probl=
em again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile tha=
t cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.
>=20
> =20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both=
 things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive me=
asure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution a=
ctually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9C=
usage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT pro=
file, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing L=
ist <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=80=
=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessima=
tion=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex,=
 without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
> =20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that the=
re=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s already b=
een established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an=
 ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/curre=
nt/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible with sp=
ecific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide s=
pecifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering cho=
ices on our part.
> =20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make p=
reviously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then=
 different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsin=
g code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more u=
nwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just creat=
e their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Sta=
ndards are only useful if they are actually used.
> =20
>                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard Bac=
kman, Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz=
@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=
=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Us=
age extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of=
 the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to acce=
pt a JWT being presented to it in some context.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu <=
mscurtescu@google.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.de> wrote:
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend=
", "audience", and "scope"?
> =20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (=
access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security e=
vent?)
> =20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
> =20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutual=
ly exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ens=
ure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a=
 current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cd=
ifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is e=
asier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header pa=
rameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick=
.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and disti=
nct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3=
.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
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>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Comments in line.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil</d=
iv><div><br>On Jun 17, 2017, at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br=
></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorry to be=
 slow replying to some messages in this thread.&nbsp; I have a lot of other t=
hings on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because I wholehea=
rtedly disagree with some of the statements below
 and believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adopt=
ion to act upon them.&nbsp; Specifically:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in;mso-li=
st:l0 level1 lfo1">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D c=
laim. &nbsp;Claims usage needs to be up to the application.&nbsp; I know tha=
t many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group design=
ed the logout token in
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_=
specs_openid-2Dconnect-2Dbackchannel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrK=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DWPqIpmdKcdpKZXupMf-xibi5O-t0ZuRpl=
lAzZI6rgjQ&amp;s=3DBixvZyWpR90xFd3HEf4p1gK5ShH-dz-aF0cCU8bkGVg&amp;e=3D">
http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToken</=
a> (which is also used as an example in
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf=
.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DWPqIpmdKcdpKZXupMf-xibi5O-t0ZuRpllAzZI6r=
gjQ&amp;s=3DiW-7ReKFzOLCrA56Qs6EzS_Kxz5HajRyoz9KKhbXBOM&amp;e=3D">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2</a>) to use the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.&nbsp; Prohibiting this usage wou=
ld be a completely unnecessary breaking
 change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with a=
n ID Token, for reasons already cites in this thread.</li></ul></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div>Mike we disagree on this.&nbsp;<div><br></div><di=
v>I and others voted against the OpenId decision to move to implementer stat=
us of OpenId because of this issue and others. Chiefly that secevents had op=
en issues that would cause breaking changes. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div=
>You indicated at OpenId as secretary that breaking changes by secevents wou=
ld NOT be an issue.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We also disagree on the s=
cope of use in logout. Recently you indicated we should define yet another l=
ogout.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div cl=
ass=3D"WordSection1"><ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D=
"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1=
 lfo1"><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in;mso-li=
st:l0 level1 lfo1">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_=
draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP=
EivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DWPqIpmdKcdpKZXupMf-xibi5O-t0ZuRpllAzZI6rgjQ&amp;=
s=3DR_IQ8DO5CFRNqhCjHiHSirwvTHGlNTkxMJfLjfwtcvY&amp;e=3D">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1</a>.&nb=
sp; No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)</li></ul></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div>It is still an issue that issuer of the subject=
 vs issuer of the token are confused.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We have=
 this issue in ietf and openid as far as I am concerned because we have case=
s that will issue app logout notices that are fyi's to the idp. Eg app logou=
t vs sso logout.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>If an app logs out the OP ne=
eds to know that the old id token is no good.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"WordSection1"><ul style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0in" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#00=
2060;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in;mso-li=
st:l0 level1 lfo1">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used f=
or some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.&nbsp; Its use shoul=
d not be mandated in the SET spec.&nbsp; I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=
=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative m=
eaning.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in;mso-li=
st:l0 level1 lfo1">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<sp=
an style=3D"color:black">No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=
=9D claim.</span>=E2=80=9D&nbsp; This reflects a misunderstanding.&nbsp; It=E2=
=80=99s the *<b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 n=
ot that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D
 claim is present.&nbsp; Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cno=
nce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a crypto=
graphically secure random number.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you be at t=
he Cloud Identity Summit next week?&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-per=
son discussions about these topics there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --=
 Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.&nbsp; Food for tho=
ught:&nbsp; Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claim=
) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as much=
 sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile,
 the Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the c=
laim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; Yes, it will completely di=
fferentiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, b=
ut it would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT
 libraries and to interoperability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002=
060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b><=
span style=3D"color:windowtext"> Yaron Sheffer [<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com">mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.=
edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">m=
scurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.=
com">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.de</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p>So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "s=
ub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) th=
at should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the S=
ET document before it is published.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for=
 RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken i=
n this case.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Mike,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon sid=
e effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this=
 issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">1.<span style=3D"font-size=
:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certai=
n that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the calle=
r passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">2.<span style=3D"font-size=
:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem a=
gain.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">3.<span style=3D"font-size=
:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">4.<span style=3D"font-size=
:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that c=
ares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks ar=
e both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defens=
ive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common=
 libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library coul=
d handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo eac=
h profile would require unique logic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in t=
his thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making thing=
s that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions are being proposed=
 in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actuall=
y even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=
=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoa=
i115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</a>.&nb=
sp; If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of=
 Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so t=
hat we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D=
, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or=
 requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily
 complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but=
 a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, ra=
ther than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use S=
ETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key t=
o adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 K=
ey Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it=
 in some context.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend",=
 "audience", and "scope"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended u=
sage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secu=
rity event?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually=
 exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this r=
equires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure=
 that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdif=
ferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by t=
he spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is ea=
sier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header para=
meter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">=
adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp=
" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9=
.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules=
 for<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds o=
f<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.=
".<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity=
 and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for J=
WT<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da=
7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a><b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping S=
ETS to be very similar to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is a=
 better plan.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM mat=
ake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.j=
p</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@m=
atake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "t=
ype"<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT=
+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br>=

<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distin=
guish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a=
 way that naive implementations will not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confus=
e one for the other and open up security<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulner=
abilities.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET is=
suer in some cases must be different from the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" i=
ssuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an I=
dP.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; follow=
ing:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be dif=
ferent<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across=
 events in the same SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (=
this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "shoul=
d" and not "must"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 event types to define additional claims<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relate=
d to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since a=
ll these claims will be at the event level<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there w=
ill be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the re=
quirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having=
 the same claim name having different syntax<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in dif=
ferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim f=
or JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; practi=
cal in the short term, and it also is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solvin=
g the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this i=
s something the JWT group should seriously<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consid=
er.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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p;&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ______=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ____________________=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing lis=
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<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |=
<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawe=
s@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2=
B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank">+1 650-214-2410</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214=
-2410" target=3D"_blank">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; __________________________________=
_____________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>
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<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 11:57:43 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I=
 have a
> lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply,
> because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and
> believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoptio=
n
> to act upon them.  Specifically:
>
>
>
>    - I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim.
>    Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many othe=
rs
>    agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout
>    token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_
>    0-04.html#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2>)
>    to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting=
 this usage would be
>    a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s imp=
ossible to confuse a
>    logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this threa=
d.
>
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning
is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that
problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of
the sub, a top level sub is not possible.

And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is a
real concern and I think a solid solution is important.

The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind. I
agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems
necessary in this case.


>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1>=
.
>    No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
>
>
Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described
above.



>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to =
be used for some
>    profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should not b=
e
>    mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D
>    functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning.
>
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about
that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can you
please propose with examples how can typ be used?



>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of
>    JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  This reflects a
>    misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the **value** of the nonce that self-s=
ecures
>    the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is presen=
t.  Any and all JWTs can
>    simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflic=
t, since the nonce
>    value is a cryptographically secure random number.
>
>
For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not
passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim could
have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to the
confusion problem.


>
>    -
>
>
>
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d =
be glad
> to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or=
 any other claim)
> or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as muc=
h
> sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin wor=
d
> for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name in=
stead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.
> Yes, it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelli=
ng
> the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the u=
se
> of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>

If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard
location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is the
actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id
Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in
which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.




>
>
> *From:* Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.
> de>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-
> 2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_
> jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
=3D
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
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s&e=3D>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
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s&e=3D>
>
>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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s&e=3D>
>
>         --
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
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--001a114495b6fe5169055254b699
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorry to b=
e slow replying to some messages in this thread.=C2=A0 I have a lot of othe=
r things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because I whol=
eheartedly disagree with some of the statements below
 and believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adop=
tion to act upon them.=C2=A0 Specifically:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;=
margin-left:0in">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.=C2=A0 Claims usage needs to be up to the application.=C2=A0 I know =
that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group de=
signed the logout token in
<a href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#L=
ogoutToken" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
http://openid.net/specs/<wbr>openid-connect-backchannel-1_<wbr>0-04.html#Lo=
goutToken</a> (which is also used as an example in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section=
-2" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>dra=
ft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-2</a>) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D claim in the normal way.=C2=A0 Prohibiting this usage would be a comple=
tely unnecessary breaking
 change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with=
 an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this thread.</li></ul></div></di=
v></blockquote><div>Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem=
 I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we=
 solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different fro=
m the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not possible.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>And I don&#39;t want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think=
 it is a real concern and I think a solid solution is important.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without sece=
vent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to =
me it seems necessary in this case.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"=
purple"><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul style=3D"margi=
n-top:0in" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph=
" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in"><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;=
margin-left:0in">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-=
2.1</a>.=C2=A0 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)</li></ul=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Further iss ruies are absolut=
ely needed for the RP to IdP case described above.</div><div><br></div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"=
EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057Wo=
rdSection1"><ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"m_44417=
14448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in"><u>=
</u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;=
margin-left:0in">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used=
 for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.=C2=A0 Its use sh=
ould not be mandated in the SET spec.=C2=A0 I would oppose duplicating the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplic=
ative meaning.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div>If typ can be use and=
 no other claim is needed, then let&#39;s talk about that. I do think SET s=
hould mandate it. I don&#39;t understand why not. Can you please propose wi=
th examples how can typ be used?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blu=
e" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul st=
yle=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoL=
istParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in"><u></u><u></u></li></=
ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#002060;=
margin-left:0in">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<s=
pan style=3D"color:black">No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;no=
nce=E2=80=9D claim.</span>=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 This reflects a misunderstanding.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s the *<b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures the J=
WT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D
 claim is present.=C2=A0 Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cn=
once=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryp=
tographically secure random number.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That va=
lue is not passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the =
claim could have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak sol=
ution to the confusion problem.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purp=
le"><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul style=3D"margin-to=
p:0in" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" st=
yle=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in"><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you be at=
 the Cloud Identity Summit next week?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-=
person discussions about these topics there.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.=C2=A0 Food for th=
ought:=C2=A0 Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other cla=
im) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as m=
uch sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile,
 the Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the=
 claim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Yes, it will completely=
 differentiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this wa=
y, but it would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT
 libraries and to interoperability.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is=
 at a standard location, I don&#39;t see what the issue is. The impediment =
you mention is the actual solution. I don&#39;t think that a JWT library th=
at was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has =
to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at a=
ll.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"=
purple"><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4441714448721077057__MailEndCompose" cl=
ass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a=
></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:y=
aronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing Lis=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p>So to summarize what I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules f=
or &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;ty=
pe&quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use =
it in the SET document before it is published.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well. <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m=
scurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said. <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, fo=
r RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken=
 in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is de=
pendent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not desig=
ned to solve this issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">1.<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certa=
in that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the cal=
ler passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">2.<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem =
again.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">3.<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">4.<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that =
cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and r=
eplay attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is=
 a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use commo=
n libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library co=
uld handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo =
each profile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a=
>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard o=
f =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize =
the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions ar=
e being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidenc=
e that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.h=
tml</a>.=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with speci=
fic kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide sp=
ecifics, so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9C=
solutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in=
 the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple th=
ings unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-bounces@=
ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkho=
lz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain w=
hat you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better analogy wou=
ld be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares =
the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to i=
t in some context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>d=
e</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target clie=
nt, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access o=
r SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&qu=
ot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matak=
e.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gma=
il.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adaw=
es@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">nov@matake.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
mscurtescu@google.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVq=
XoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP=
EivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<wbr>jvgXzua6mi=
RiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d0mxPQFJLhxWI&a=
mp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
ent mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event=
@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9u=
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<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing li=
st<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JP=
KHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oM=
U7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ad=
awes@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adaw=
es@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;=
 |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">+1=
 650-214-2410</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%2021=
4-2410" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
r>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp=
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwM=
GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3=
zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt;
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehY=
vlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt;
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<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c=
&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dht=
tps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&a=
mp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>J=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9=
uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pr=
e>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">Id-event@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event=
</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114495b6fe5169055254b699--


From nobody Mon Jun 19 12:11:51 2017
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Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com> <1EE56A12-E2A2-400D-A561-8C6818C8BAA9@amazon.com> <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com> <6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C39@mit.edu> <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB05044F0DB071245AE3D4C05EF5C60@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAGdjJpJJKHLtXX1U5ja_dK4Uxc9GZ0Ssm4K06AOVWU+0eXC8sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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[Editor Hat]
Just a side note. It would be good to get a resolution on this sometime =
this week. Based on the consensus reached, I would like to update the =
SET document next week in order to meet the publication timelines for =
Prague.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 19, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread. =
 I have a lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now =
to reply, because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements =
below and believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and =
its adoption to act upon them.  Specifically:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D claim.  Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that =
many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group =
designed the logout token =
inhttp://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutTok=
en =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_specs_op=
enid-2Dconnect-2Dbackchannel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DF4o5yq8KJK6TchrRbj43SITOywEvWvZ-FKc1IbHpuV8&s=3DRXcr=
1ezsCvls3BIH27OWoxQwcpuL2dQnk3hIansGFQI&e=3D> (which is also used as an =
example in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwl=
NKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DF4o5yq8KJK6TchrRbj43SITOywEvWvZ-FKc1IbHpuV8&s=3DEiKIBUchCA=
7-J3brQaI5Y_tNOwPHw3OcL6chYjWEzzY&e=3D>) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting this usage would be a completely =
unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to =
confuse a logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in =
this thread.
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep =
mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we =
solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different =
from the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>=20
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it =
is a real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>=20
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in =
mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it =
seems necessary in this case.
> =20
> =20
>=20
> (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DF4o5yq8KJK6TchrRbj43SITOywEvWvZ-FKc1IbHpuV8&s=3DggQoMZ_y=
yFlCRsKPr9WGirxEZ3-vegx_E-fNpEG2OGw&e=3D>.  No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 rules are needed.)
>=20
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case =
described above.
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be =
used for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use =
should not be mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a =
duplicative meaning.
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about =
that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can =
you please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C=
No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D =
 This reflects a misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the *value* of the =
nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=
=9D claim is present.  Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =
=E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a cryptographically secure random number.
>=20
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not =
passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim =
could have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak =
solution to the confusion problem.
> =20
> =20
>=20
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d=
 be glad to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                        -- Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
(or any other claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard =
location makes about as much sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a =
particular profile, the Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D=
 must be used as the claim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.  Yes, =
it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelling =
the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the =
use of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>=20
>=20
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a =
standard location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you =
mention is the actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that =
was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has =
to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue =
at all.
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>; Marius =
Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>; Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>=20
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>=20
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for =
"sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>=20
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) =
that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>=20
> Did I miss anything?
>=20
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in =
the SET document before it is published.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>     Yaron
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>=20
> +1 to this as well.=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>=20
> +1
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Mike,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side =
effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve =
this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>=20
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile =
that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the =
problem.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are =
both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  =
I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that =
there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s =
already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, =
would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then =
the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this =
is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                 -- Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 =
Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>=20
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended =
usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)
>=20
> =20
>=20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, =
"matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be =
in 3.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com> =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> =
wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar =
to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens =
in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: =
the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from =
the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending =
SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles =
that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I =
think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>=20
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                      >
>                     =
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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ULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhx=
WI&e=3D =
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an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLh=
xWI&e=3D>
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 =
650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>         --=20
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
kITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=3D>> mail list to
>         learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
kITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=3D>> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
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Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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rRbj43SITOywEvWvZ-FKc1IbHpuV8&s=3DxyQQ7D6EchoHthYPpTNHzy4vYat2_FkHJ0tBj1ld=
LRI&e=3D>
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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LRI&e=3D>
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
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--Apple-Mail=_258ED39A-506D-41D2-9810-9C7E713BA0A8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">[Editor Hat]<div class=3D"">Just a side note. It would be =
good to get a resolution on this sometime this week. Based on the =
consensus reached, I would like to update the SET document next week in =
order to meet the publication timelines for Prague.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 19, 2017, at 11:57 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, =
Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in =
this thread.&nbsp; I have a lot of other things on my plate, but I will =
take the time now to reply, because I wholeheartedly disagree with some =
of the statements below and believe it would be severely harmful to the =
specification and its adoption to act upon them.&nbsp; Specifically:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); margin-left: 0in;">I disagree that =
specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim.&nbsp; =
Claims usage needs to be up to the application.&nbsp; I know that many =
others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed =
the logout token in<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_s=
pecs_openid-2Dconnect-2Dbackchannel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&amp;d=3D=
DwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DF4o5yq8KJK6TchrRbj43SITOywEvW=
vZ-FKc1IbHpuV8&amp;s=3DRXcr1ezsCvls3BIH27OWoxQwcpuL2dQnk3hIansGFQI&amp;e=3D=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://openid.net/specs/<wbr =
class=3D"">openid-connect-backchannel-1_<wbr =
class=3D"">0-04.html#LogoutToken</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(which is also used as an =
example in<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DF4o5yq8KJK6TchrRbj43SITOywEvWvZ-FKc=
1IbHpuV8&amp;s=3DEiKIBUchCA7-J3brQaI5Y_tNOwPHw3OcL6chYjWEzzY&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr class=3D"">section-2</a>) =
to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.&nbsp; =
Prohibiting this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =
=E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an =
ID Token, for reasons already cites in this =
thread.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">Solving the =
confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning is SETs =
issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that problem =
Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of the =
sub, a top level sub is not possible.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And I don't want to downplay the =
confusion problem either. I think it is a real concern and I think a =
solid solution is important.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The OpenID Working Group designed =
logout tokens without secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly =
break compatibility, but to me it seems necessary in this =
case.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96); margin-left: 0in;"><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); margin-left: 0in;">(I agree with the =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DF4o5yq8KJK6TchrRbj43SITOywEvWvZ-F=
Kc1IbHpuV8&amp;s=3DggQoMZ_yyFlCRsKPr9WGirxEZ3-vegx_E-fNpEG2OGw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr =
class=3D"">section-2.1</a>.&nbsp; No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules =
are needed.)</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Further iss ruies are absolutely needed =
for the RP to IdP case described above.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"white" =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96); margin-left: 0in;"><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); margin-left: 0in;">It=E2=80=99s fine for =
the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used for some profiles =
to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.&nbsp; Its use should not be =
mandated in the SET spec.&nbsp; I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Cty=
p=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative =
meaning.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">If typ can be =
use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about that. I do think =
SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can you please =
propose with examples how can typ be used?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"white" =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96); margin-left: 0in;"><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); margin-left: 0in;">I=E2=80=99ll also =
respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.</span>=E2=80=9D&nbsp; This reflects a misunderstanding.&nbsp; =
It=E2=80=99s the *<b class=3D"">value</b>* of the nonce that =
self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D =
claim is present.&nbsp; Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =
=E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a cryptographically secure random =
number.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For SETs I cannot see how the nonce =
value is useful. That value is not passed back and it cannot be =
verified. Only the presence of the claim could have some use, hinting at =
the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to the confusion =
problem.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"white" =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96); margin-left: 0in;"><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity =
Summit next week?&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-person =
discussions about these topics there.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">P.S.&nbsp; Food for thought:&nbsp; =
Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claim) or =
forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as much =
sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin =
word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim =
name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; Yes, it will completely =
differentiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this =
way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT =
libraries and to =
interoperability.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we define that sub must be at the =
event level then it is at a standard location, I don't see what the =
issue is. The impediment you mention is the actual solution. I don't =
think that a JWT library that was written for Id Tokens should be used =
to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the event =
level iss+sub is not an issue at all.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"m_4441714448721077057WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a =
name=3D"m_4441714448721077057__MailEndCompose" class=3D"cremed"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></a></p><span class=3D""></span><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron =
Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Saturday, June 17, 2017 =
1:45 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;; =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span></p><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for =
Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">So to summarize what I'm seeing on this =
thread:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">Everybody =
agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "sub" and =
"iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term =
"usage" claim ("type" is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. =
in the JWT BCP.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">Did =
I miss anything?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">By =
the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SET =
document before it is published.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p=
 class=3D"">Thanks,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 =
22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as =
well.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at =
1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle =
said.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, =
Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to an =
IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
id=3D"m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
id=3D"m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br =
class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is =
dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not =
designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with =
it:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">1.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>The caller of the =
Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that a nonce-less =
ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes the ID =
Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">2.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Any future ID Token =
distribution method needs to solve this problem again.<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">3.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>No other profile of =
JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">4.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>This is only a =
solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares about =
disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from =
experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both things =
that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general =
solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT =
parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle =
Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, =
2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =
=E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize =
the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex, without =
data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96);" class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this =
thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually =
even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s =
impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr =
class=3D"">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr =
class=3D"">msg00428.html</a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The proposed =
=E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make =
previously simple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the =
result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is =
that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard =
JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.&nbsp; =
Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only =
useful if they are actually used.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr =
class=3D"">org</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Richard Backman, =
Annabelle<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for =
Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing =
Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better analogy =
would be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that =
declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer =
to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in =
some context.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 =
at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 =
at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd =
question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What semantics would "usage" =
provide that that are not covered via "intend", "audience", and =
"scope"?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"aud" =
(audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage =
(access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"scope" =
is not used by SET.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don't =
know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this =
together!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the assumptions inherent =
in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t =
guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually exclusive set of =
valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires a =
=E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that =
JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a =
current spec.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is unrealistic to =
expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for =
different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec or =
not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier =
than managing N different keys.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto =
for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusag=
e=E2=80=9D claim/header parameter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Identity=
 Services<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">*From: *Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Date: =
*Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: *Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam =
Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject: =
*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. Note that there is still =
lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks for the pointer =
Dick, very good timing :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The issue is =
described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mitigation is =
in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Different Kinds =
of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>required =
claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>JWTs." and "Use different =
issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I still think =
that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>safety.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 =
PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron, Mike and I just =
published an BCP ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr class=3D"">1690</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 =
PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I was initially a fan of =
keeping SETS to be very similar to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>id =
tokens but I now think this is a better plan.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 =
PM matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>+1 especially for "type"<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2017-06-09=
 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr class=3D"">:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>+1<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at =
6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There were a =
couple of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>distinguish SETs from Id =
Tokens and Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>such a way that naive =
implementations will not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>confuse one for the other =
and open up security<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>vulnerabilities.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There is also =
another important requirement: the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>SET issuer in some cases =
must be different from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub" issuer. This is the =
case of an RP sending SETs<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>to an IdP.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; With these =
requirements in mind I propose the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>following:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>level<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>be =
different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>across events in the same =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>level (this solves the =
disambiguation), please note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"should" and not "must"<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also =
allows different profiles that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>define event types to =
define additional claims<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>related to sub (like email =
or phone_number) and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>since all these claims will =
be at the event level<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>there will be no collisions =
or ambiguity.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>define a composite "aud" =
claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the requirement for a =
distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>having the same claim name =
having different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in different token types =
could lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>claim =
for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>practical in the short =
term, and it also is not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>solving the distinct issuer =
requirement, but I think<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>this is something the JWT =
group should seriously<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>consider.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Marius<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>_____________________________=
_<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event mailing list<br =
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class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>_____________________________=
_<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event mailing list<br =
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class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span =
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href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Adam Dawes | Sr. Product =
Manager |<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a =
href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">+1 =
650-214-2410</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214-2410" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>_____________________________=
_<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event mailing list<br =
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class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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class=3D"">listinfo/id-event</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
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From nobody Mon Jun 19 14:27:23 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:27:10 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/o9A_a3_N4Rbks85trezzX8KOufo>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org
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List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." <id-event.ietf.org>
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Mike

Cc: openid connect list=20

[personal hat]
I believe that your position severely limits the value of having a SET spec.=
=20

If logout has different parsing rules than the other specs, interop is compr=
omised due to different handling for different security components.=20

As I said before, within the context of OpenId, I feel backchannel logout is=
 too narrowly defined and many other logout and session events will be neede=
d that are user triggered depending on scenario.=20

Marius's point is important.=20

For example we want to let the IDP know a subject has logged out of a specif=
ic RP. This is different from a logout command which signals single-logout /=
 SLO at the OP to all RPs.  In this case the SET is issued by the RP and not=
 the OP/IDP.=20

Phil

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or=
 other profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,=
 without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use, a=
nd you=E2=80=99re golden.
> =20
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the re=
quirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that can u=
se claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be complex w=
ill have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec, which wouldn=E2=
=80=99t be good for anyone.
> =20
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a s=
ign of success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>=
; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hu=
nt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I h=
ave a lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply=
, because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and be=
lieve it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to a=
ct upon them.  Specifically:
> =20
> I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.  Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many o=
thers agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.htm=
l#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D c=
laim in the normal way.  Prohibiting this usage would be a completely unnece=
ssary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logo=
ut token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this thread.
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning i=
s SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that problem=
 Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of the sub, a=
 top level sub is not possible.
> =20
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is a=
 real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
> =20
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind. I=
 agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems nece=
ssary in this case.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1.  No further =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
> =20
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described a=
bove.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be use=
d for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should n=
ot be mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning=
.
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about that=
. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can you plea=
se propose with examples how can typ be used?
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9CN=
o other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  Thi=
s reflects a misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the *value* of the nonce that s=
elf-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is p=
resent.  Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D wit=
hout any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secu=
re random number.
> =20
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not pas=
sed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim could hav=
e some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to the con=
fusion problem.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d b=
e glad to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or a=
ny other claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes=
 about as much sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, t=
he Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the cl=
aim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.  Yes, it will completely differen=
tiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it w=
ould certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to i=
nteroperability.
> =20
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard l=
ocation, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is the ac=
tual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id Toke=
ns should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which c=
ase the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.c=
om>
> Cc: Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>=20
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "su=
b" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>=20
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) tha=
t should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>=20
> Did I miss anything?
>=20
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SE=
T document before it is published.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>     Yaron
>=20
> =20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
> +1 to this as well.
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> =20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
> =20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events t=
o an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr=
ote:
> +1
> =20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.c=
om> wrote:
>=20
> Mike,
> =20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effe=
cts of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue=
. As a result, I see several issues with it:
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be ce=
rtain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the c=
aller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this probl=
em again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile tha=
t cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.
>=20
> =20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both=
 things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive me=
asure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution a=
ctually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9C=
usage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT pro=
file, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing L=
ist <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=80=
=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessima=
tion=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex,=
 without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
> =20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that the=
re=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s already b=
een established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an=
 ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/curre=
nt/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible with sp=
ecific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide s=
pecifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering cho=
ices on our part.
> =20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make p=
reviously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then=
 different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsin=
g code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more u=
nwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just creat=
e their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Sta=
ndards are only useful if they are actually used.
> =20
>                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard Bac=
kman, Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz=
@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=
=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Us=
age extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of=
 the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to acce=
pt a JWT being presented to it in some context.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu <=
mscurtescu@google.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.de> wrote:
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend=
", "audience", and "scope"?
> =20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (=
access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security e=
vent?)
> =20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
> =20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutual=
ly exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ens=
ure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a=
 current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cd=
ifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is e=
asier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header pa=
rameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick=
.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and disti=
nct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3=
.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D=
JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YK=
OCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>         --=20
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to
>         learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn abou=
t projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j=
746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=3D=

> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> =20

--Apple-Mail-20CF37DD-4206-4EB1-ACC8-A3BA4326DF80
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e">Mike</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
gnature">Cc: openid connect list&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><=
br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">[personal hat]</div><div id=3D"Apple=
MailSignature">I believe that your position severely limits the value of hav=
ing a SET spec.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature">If logout has different parsing rules than the other sp=
ecs, interop is compromised due to different handling for different security=
 components.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"=
AppleMailSignature">As I said before, within the context of OpenId, I feel b=
ackchannel logout is too narrowly defined and many other logout and session e=
vents will be needed that are user triggered depending on scenario.&nbsp;</d=
iv><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">M=
arius's point is important.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></=
div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">For example we want to let the IDP know a=
 subject has logged out of a specific RP. This is different from a logout co=
mmand which signals single-logout / SLO at the OP to all RPs. &nbsp;In this c=
ase the SET is issued by the RP and not the OP/IDP.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, there=E2=80=99s=
 nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) from def=
ining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without any changes to t=
he SET spec.&nbsp; Specify the claims you want
 to use, and you=E2=80=99re golden.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But it would be counter=
productive to require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your specif=
ic profile.&nbsp; There are simpler use cases that can use claims in simpler=
 ways.&nbsp; Trying to make the simple use
 cases be complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the s=
pec, which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If successful, SETs wil=
l have many different profiles.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=80=
=93 not a sign of weakness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --=
 Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002=
060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com">yaronf=
.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu=
">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
richanna@amazon.com">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>=
&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying t=
o some messages in this thread.&nbsp; I have a lot of other things on my pla=
te, but I will take the time now to reply, because
 I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it w=
ould be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upon t=
hem.&nbsp; Specifically:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo1">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D c=
laim.&nbsp; Claims usage needs to be up to the application.&nbsp; I know tha=
t many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group design=
ed the logout token in
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_=
specs_openid-2Dconnect-2Dbackchannel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrK=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dv4DwjKKsJwoRsAumAL_W7MPPBf0cjsWUW=
5s3v4G5rhw&amp;s=3D7YlB_wNqqc7lzygZd9r7hqifDZUcfRnqW1B2G_5kPMY&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToken</=
a> (which is also used as an example in
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf=
.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dv4DwjKKsJwoRsAumAL_W7MPPBf0cjsWUW5s3v4G5=
rhw&amp;s=3DjAo4XYpHvjqtcw_X9zoqtNYhcKfLva43hLyF2ft25Lc&amp;e=3D" target=3D"=
_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2</a>) to u=
se the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.&nbsp; Prohibiting this=
 usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=
=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, for
 reasons already cites in this thread.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Solving the confusion is one problem. The other probl=
em I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are w=
e solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different fro=
m the iss of the sub, a top level
 sub is not possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem ei=
ther. I think it is a real concern and I think a solid solution is important=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens witho=
ut secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, b=
ut to me it seems necessary in this case.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo2">
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_=
draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP=
EivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dv4DwjKKsJwoRsAumAL_W7MPPBf0cjsWUW5s3v4G5rhw&amp;=
s=3DbusSJi2UnR0TRU8fJ_vAofGykXA6SwiIwqyKMp7lIt8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1</a>.&nb=
sp; No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<o:p></o:p></li></ul>=

</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to=
 IdP case described above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4">
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used f=
or some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.&nbsp; Its use shoul=
d not be mandated in the SET spec.&nbsp; I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=
=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative m=
eaning.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then l=
et's talk about that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand w=
hy not. Can you please propose with examples how can typ be used?<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo6">
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<sp=
an style=3D"color:black">No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=
=9D claim.</span>=E2=80=9D&nbsp; This reflects a misunderstanding.&nbsp; It=E2=
=80=99s the *<b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 n=
ot that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D
 claim is present.&nbsp; Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cno=
nce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a crypto=
graphically secure random number.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. T=
hat value is not passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of=
 the claim could have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak=
 solution to the confusion problem.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you be at the Cloud Ident=
ity Summit next week?&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-person discussion=
s about these topics there.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.&nbsp; Food for thought:&nbsp; Pro=
hibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claim) or forcing it=
 to be located in a non-standard location makes about as much
 sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word f=
or subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name instea=
d of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; Yes, it will completely differentiate this=
 profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it
 would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and t=
o interoperability.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we define that sub must be at the event level then=
 it is at a standard location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment=
 you mention is the actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that w=
as written for Id Tokens should
 be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the e=
vent level iss+sub is not an issue at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><a name=3D"m_4441714448721077057__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"col=
or:#002060">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_b=
lank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurt=
escu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.=
com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "s=
ub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) th=
at should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the S=
ET document before it is published.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">+1 to this as well.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send ev=
ents to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">+1<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Mike,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon sid=
e effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this=
 issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">1.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certai=
n that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the calle=
r passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">2.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem a=
gain.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">3.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">4.<spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that c=
ares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks ar=
e both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defens=
ive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common=
 libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library coul=
d handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo eac=
h profile would require unique logic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in t=
his thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making thing=
s that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions are being proposed=
 in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actuall=
y even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=
=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoa=
i115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</a>.&nb=
sp; If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of=
 Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so t=
hat we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D=
, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or=
 requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily
 complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but=
 a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, ra=
ther than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use S=
ETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key t=
o adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 K=
ey Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it=
 in some context.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend",=
 "audience", and "scope"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended u=
sage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secu=
rity event?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually=
 exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this r=
equires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure=
 that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdif=
ferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by t=
he spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is ea=
sier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header para=
meter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">=
adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp=
" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9=
.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules=
 for<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds o=
f<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.=
".<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity=
 and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for J=
WT<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da=
7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a><b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping S=
ETS to be very similar to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is a=
 better plan.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM mat=
ake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.j=
p</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@m=
atake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "t=
ype"<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT=
+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br>=

<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distin=
guish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a=
 way that naive implementations will not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confus=
e one for the other and open up security<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulner=
abilities.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET is=
suer in some cases must be different from the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" i=
ssuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an I=
dP.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; follow=
ing:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be dif=
ferent<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across=
 events in the same SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (=
this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "shoul=
d" and not "must"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 event types to define additional claims<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relate=
d to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since a=
ll these claims will be at the event level<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there w=
ill be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the re=
quirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having=
 the same claim name having different syntax<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in dif=
ferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim f=
or JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; practi=
cal in the short term, and it also is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solvin=
g the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this i=
s something the JWT group should seriously<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consid=
er.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D=
JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn=
88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214=
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Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
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_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssK=
FZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2D=
event&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp=
;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j=
746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs=
&amp;e=3D</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3Dv4DwjKKsJwoRsAumAL_W7MPPBf0cjsWUW5s3v4G5rhw&amp;s=3DliaCb6cm5JZnJOCt7U=
DHOqHgigErF0T-BysT-EdAHSk&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.or=
g</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLI=
Gk&amp;m=3Dv4DwjKKsJwoRsAumAL_W7MPPBf0cjsWUW5s3v4G5rhw&amp;s=3DliaCb6cm5JZnJ=
OCt7UDHOqHgigErF0T-BysT-EdAHSk&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/96txRp919j0IOGaMX4O6vENx7x4>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 14:55:06 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not
work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and may
not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP.

Marius

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group o=
r other
> profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,
> without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use,
> and you=E2=80=99re golden.
>
>
>
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the
> requirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that
> can use claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be
> complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec,
> which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.
>
>
>
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a =
sign of
> success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk
> Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I=
 have a
> lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply,
> because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and
> believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoptio=
n
> to act upon them.  Specifically:
>
>
>
>    - I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim.
>    Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many othe=
rs
>    agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout
>    token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_
>    0-04.html#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2>)
>    to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting=
 this usage would be
>    a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s imp=
ossible to confuse a
>    logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this threa=
d.
>
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning
> is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that
> problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of
> the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>
>
>
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is =
a
> real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>
>
>
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind.
> I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems
> necessary in this case.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1>=
.
>    No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
>
>
>
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described
> above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to =
be used for some
>    profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should not b=
e
>    mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D
>    functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning.
>
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about
> that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can y=
ou
> please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of
>    JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  This reflects a
>    misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the **value** of the nonce that self-s=
ecures
>    the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is presen=
t.  Any and all JWTs can
>    simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflic=
t, since the nonce
>    value is a cryptographically secure random number.
>
>
>
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not
> passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim cou=
ld
> have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to t=
he
> confusion problem.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d =
be glad
> to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or=
 any other claim)
> or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as muc=
h
> sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin wor=
d
> for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name in=
stead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.
> Yes, it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelli=
ng
> the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the u=
se
> of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>
>
>
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard
> location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is th=
e
> actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id
> Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in
> which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.
> de>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-
> 2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_
> jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
=3D
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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s&e=3D>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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s&e=3D>
>
>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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>
>         --
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
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--94eb2c1fcbbc59d54b0552573163
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that=
 they will not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working fo=
r RISC, and may not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initia=
ted from an RP.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div><=
/div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_4639718898647749668WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, there=E2=80=99=
s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) from d=
efining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without any changes t=
o the SET spec.=C2=A0 Specify the claims you want
 to use, and you=E2=80=99re golden.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But it would be counte=
rproductive to require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your spec=
ific profile.=C2=A0 There are simpler use cases that can use claims in simp=
ler ways.=C2=A0 Trying to make the simple use
 cases be complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the=
 spec, which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If successful, SETs wi=
ll have many different profiles.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=
=80=93 not a sign of weakness.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4639718898647749668__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Richard Ba=
ckman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<w=
br>de</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<=
/p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorry to b=
e slow replying to some messages in this thread.=C2=A0 I have a lot of othe=
r things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because
 I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it=
 would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upo=
n them.=C2=A0 Specifically:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.=C2=A0 Claims usage needs to be up to the application.=C2=A0 I know =
that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group de=
signed the logout token in
<a href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#L=
ogoutToken" target=3D"_blank">
http://openid.net/specs/<wbr>openid-connect-backchannel-1_<wbr>0-04.html#Lo=
goutToken</a> (which is also used as an example in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section=
-2" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-=
2</a>) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.=C2=A0 Proh=
ibiting this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=
=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, =
for
 reasons already cites in this thread.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Solving the confusion is one problem. The other prob=
lem I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are=
 we solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different =
from the iss of the sub, a top level
 sub is not possible.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And I don&#39;t want to downplay the confusion probl=
em either. I think it is a real concern and I think a solid solution is imp=
ortant.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens with=
out secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility,=
 but to me it seems necessary in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-=
2.1</a>.=C2=A0 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<u></u><u=
></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP t=
o IdP case described above.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used=
 for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.=C2=A0 Its use sh=
ould not be mandated in the SET spec.=C2=A0 I would oppose duplicating the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplic=
ative meaning.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then=
 let&#39;s talk about that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don&#39;t u=
nderstand why not. Can you please propose with examples how can typ be used=
?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<s=
pan style=3D"color:black">No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;no=
nce=E2=80=9D claim.</span>=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 This reflects a misunderstanding.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s the *<b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures the J=
WT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D
 claim is present.=C2=A0 Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cn=
once=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryp=
tographically secure random number.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful.=
 That value is not passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence=
 of the claim could have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very =
weak solution to the confusion problem.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you be at=
 the Cloud Identity Summit next week?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-=
person discussions about these topics there.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.=C2=A0 Food for th=
ought:=C2=A0 Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other cla=
im) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as m=
uch
 sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word=
 for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name ins=
tead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Yes, it will completely differentiate =
this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it
 would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and =
to interoperability.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we define that sub must be at the event level the=
n it is at a standard location, I don&#39;t see what the issue is. The impe=
diment you mention is the actual solution. I don&#39;t think that a JWT lib=
rary that was written for Id Tokens should
 be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the =
event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4639718898647749668_m_44417144487210770=
57__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt=
;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hun=
t@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>So to summarize what I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules f=
or &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;ty=
pe&quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use =
it in the SET document before it is published.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, fo=
r RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken=
 in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_4639718898647749668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312A=
ppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_4639718898647749668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312A=
ppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is de=
pendent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not desig=
ned to solve this issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph">1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certa=
in that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the cal=
ler passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph">2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem =
again.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph">3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph">4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that =
cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and r=
eplay attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is=
 a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use commo=
n libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library co=
uld handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo =
each profile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@s=
it.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard o=
f =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize =
the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions ar=
e being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidenc=
e that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.h=
tml</a>.=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with speci=
fic kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide sp=
ecifics, so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9C=
solutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in=
 the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple th=
ings unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain w=
hat you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better analogy wou=
ld be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares =
the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to i=
t in some context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target clie=
nt, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access o=
r SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&qu=
ot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:n=
ov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing Li=
st &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake=
.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google=
.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
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ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<w=
br>00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGM=
SWWs&amp;e=3D</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pr=
e>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u=
></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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	charset=utf-8

FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim =
usage would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.

Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very difficult (if not impossible) =
to retract. In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad =
adoption.=20

Mark

> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will =
not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, =
and may not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated =
from an RP.
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working =
group or other profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs =
to IdPs now, without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims =
you want to use, and you=E2=80=99re golden.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet =
the requirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases =
that can use claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use =
cases be complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of =
the spec, which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s =
a sign of success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                        -- Mike
>=20
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>]=20
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>; Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>=20
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread. =
 I have a lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now =
to reply, because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements =
below and believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and =
its adoption to act upon them.  Specifically:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D claim.  Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that =
many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group =
designed the logout token in =
http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToken=
 =
<http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToke=
n> (which is also used as an example =
inhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2>) to =
use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting this =
usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as =
it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, for =
reasons already cites in this thread.
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep =
mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we =
solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different =
from the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it =
is a real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in =
mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it =
seems necessary in this case.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1>.  =
No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
> =20
>=20
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case =
described above.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be =
used for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use =
should not be mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a =
duplicative meaning.
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about =
that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can =
you please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C=
No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D =
 This reflects a misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the *value* of the =
nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=
=9D claim is present.  Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =
=E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a cryptographically secure random number.
> =20
>=20
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not =
passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim =
could have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak =
solution to the confusion problem.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d=
 be glad to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                        -- Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
(or any other claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard =
location makes about as much sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a =
particular profile, the Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D=
 must be used as the claim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.  Yes, =
it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelling =
the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the =
use of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a =
standard location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you =
mention is the actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that =
was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has =
to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue =
at all.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>; Marius =
Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>; Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>=20
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>=20
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for =
"sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>=20
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) =
that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>=20
> Did I miss anything?
>=20
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in =
the SET document before it is published.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>     Yaron
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>=20
> +1 to this as well.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>=20
> +1
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Mike,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side =
effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve =
this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>=20
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile =
that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the =
problem.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are =
both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  =
I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that =
there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s =
already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 =
seehttps://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, =
would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then =
the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this =
is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                 -- Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 =
Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>=20
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended =
usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)
>=20
> =20
>=20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, =
"matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be =
in 3.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com> =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> =
wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar =
to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens =
in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: =
the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from =
the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending =
SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles =
that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I =
think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>=20
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                      >
>                     =
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ULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhx=
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xWI&e=3D>
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 =
650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>         --=20
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
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5c&s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=3D>> mail list to
>         learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
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learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> =20
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> _______________________________________________
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> =20
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> _______________________________________________
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> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
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> =20
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> _______________________________________________
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> =20
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> =20
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> _______________________________________________
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--Apple-Mail=_FA12085D-D0D4-476E-AD67-AD2B77042A92
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Source Sans Pro', Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, 'Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro', Meiryo, 'Hiragino Sans GB =
W3', 'Noto Naskh Arabic', 'Droid Arabic Naskh', 'Geeza Pro', 'Simplified =
Arabic', 'Noto Sans Thai', Thonburi, Dokchampa, 'Droid Sans Thai', =
'Droid Sans Fallback', -apple-system, '.SFNSDisplay-Regular', 'Heiti =
SC', 'Microsoft Yahei', 'Segoe UI'; font-size: 15px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; white-space: pre-line; =
widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">FWIW - I =
agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim usage would =
unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.</span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Source Sans Pro, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, Hiragino Kaku =
Gothic Pro, Meiryo, Hiragino Sans GB W3, Noto Naskh Arabic, Droid Arabic =
Naskh, Geeza Pro, Simplified Arabic, Noto Sans Thai, Thonburi, =
Dokchampa, Droid Sans Thai, Droid Sans Fallback, -apple-system, =
.SFNSDisplay-Regular, Heiti SC, Microsoft Yahei, Segoe UI" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-line; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></div><div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-line;" =
class=3D"">Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-line;" =
class=3D"">difficult&nbsp;(if not impossible) to retract. In this =
regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad =
adoption.&nbsp;</span></span></div><div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-line;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></span></div><div style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px; white-space: =
pre-line;" class=3D"">Mark</span></span></div><div style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D""><font color=3D"rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85098)" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-line;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></span></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that =
they will not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working =
for RISC, and may not work for logout either if you allow logout to be =
initiated from an RP.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 =
PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_4639718898647749668WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">Marius, =
there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other =
profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, =
without any changes to the SET spec.&nbsp; Specify the claims you want
 to use, and you=E2=80=99re golden.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">But it would be counterproductive to =
require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your specific =
profile.&nbsp; There are simpler use cases that can use claims in =
simpler ways.&nbsp; Trying to make the simple use
 cases be complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of =
the spec, which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">If successful, SETs will have many =
different profiles.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=80=93 not =
a sign of weakness.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; -- Mike<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4639718898647749668__MailEndCompose" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></a></p>
<span class=3D""></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> =
Marius Scurtescu [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;; ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</p><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"h5"><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in =
this thread.&nbsp; I have a lot of other things on my plate, but I will =
take the time now to reply, because
 I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe =
it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to =
act upon them.&nbsp; Specifically:</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.&nbsp; Claims usage needs to be up to the application.&nbsp; I =
know that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working =
group designed the logout token in
<a =
href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#Log=
outToken" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
http://openid.net/specs/<wbr class=3D"">openid-connect-backchannel-1_<wbr =
class=3D"">0-04.html#LogoutToken</a> (which is also used as an example =
in
<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr class=3D"">section-2</a>) =
to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.&nbsp; =
Prohibiting this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =
=E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an =
ID Token, for
 reasons already cites in this thread.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Solving the confusion is one =
problem. The other problem I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to =
be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that problem Mike? In this case =
the top level iss is different from the iss of the sub, a top level
 sub is not possible.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And I don't want to downplay the =
confusion problem either. I think it is a real concern and I think a =
solid solution is important.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The OpenID Working Group designed =
logout tokens without secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly =
break compatibility, but to me it seems necessary in this case.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></li></ul><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2=
.1" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr =
class=3D"">section-2.1</a>.&nbsp; No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules =
are needed.)<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Further iss ruies are absolutely =
needed for the RP to IdP case described above.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></li></ul><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be =
used for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.&nbsp; Its =
use should not be mandated in the SET spec.&nbsp; I would oppose =
duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another =
claim with a duplicative meaning.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If typ can be use and no other =
claim is needed, then let's talk about that. I do think SET should =
mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can you please propose with =
examples how can typ be used?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></li></ul><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<=
span style=3D"" class=3D"">No other profile of JWT can ever use the =
"nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span>=E2=80=9D&nbsp; This reflects a =
misunderstanding.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s the *<b class=3D"">value</b>* of =
the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=
=80=9D
 claim is present.&nbsp; Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =
=E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a cryptographically secure random number.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">For SETs I cannot see how the =
nonce value is useful. That value is not passed back and it cannot be =
verified. Only the presence of the claim could have some use, hinting at =
the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to the confusion problem.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></li></ul><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">Will some =
of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d be =
glad to have in-person discussions about these topics there.</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">P.S.&nbsp; =
Food for thought:&nbsp; Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or =
any other claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location =
makes about as much
 sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin =
word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim =
name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; Yes, it will completely =
differentiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this =
way, but it
 would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries =
and to interoperability.</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we define that sub must be at =
the event level then it is at a standard location, I don't see what the =
issue is. The impediment you mention is the actual solution. I don't =
think that a JWT library that was written for Id Tokens should
 be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which case =
the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a =
name=3D"m_4639718898647749668_m_4441714448721077057__MailEndCompose" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> =
Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">So to summarize what I'm seeing on this =
thread:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">Everybody =
agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "sub" and =
"iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term =
"usage" claim ("type" is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. =
in the JWT BCP.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">Did =
I miss anything?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"">By =
the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SET =
document before it is published.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p=
 class=3D"">Thanks,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well.
<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the =
other requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at =
the top level is broken in this case.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">
<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, =
Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div =
id=3D"m_4639718898647749668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312Apple=
MailSignature" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div =
id=3D"m_4639718898647749668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312Apple=
MailSignature" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br =
class=3D"">
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this =
is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID =
Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see =
several
 issues with it:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msol=
istparagraph">1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,serif" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be =
certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that =
the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msol=
istparagraph">2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,serif" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msol=
istparagraph">3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,serif" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msol=
istparagraph">4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,serif" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile =
that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the =
problem.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and =
replay attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being =
proposed is a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use =
common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT =
library could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with =
the status quo each profile would require unique logic.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D"">=

<b class=3D"">To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature =
optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in =
this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making =
things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do =
so.</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">Mandatory =
solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99=
s no evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already =
been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =
=E2=80=93 see <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr =
class=3D"">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr =
class=3D"">msg00428.html</a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">The =
proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, =
would make previously simple things unnecessarily
 complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT =
but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be =
used, rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make =
it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the =
key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful if they are actually =
used.</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> =
Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr class=3D"">org</a>]
<b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s =
question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your =
first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usage =
extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of =
the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented =
to it in some context.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>=

</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"aud" (audience) specifies the =
target client, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize =
resource access or SET to communicate a security event?)<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"scope" is not used by SET.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don't know what do you mean by =
"intend" (or intent)?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Henk<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this =
together!<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Identity Services<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in =
3.9.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and =
the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation =
Rules for<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets =
of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different =
kinds of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of =
JWTs.".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of =
clarity and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID =
for JWT<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr class=3D"">1690</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of =
keeping SETS to be very similar to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this =
is a better plan.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM =
matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially =
for "type"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 =
GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr class=3D"">:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
+1<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Phil<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
such a way that naive implementations will not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
confuse one for the other and open up security<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br class=3D"">=

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
"sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to =
an IdP.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
following:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
level<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be =
different<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
across events in the same SET<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
level (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
"should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
define event types to define additional claims<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
related to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
since all these claims will be at the event level<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
the requirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
having the same claim name having different syntax<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in =
different token types could lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
practical in the short term, and it also is not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
this is something the JWT group should seriously<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
consider.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; ______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
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<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product =
Manager |<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">+1 650-214-2410</a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214-2410" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 11:53:08 -0700
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To: "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com=
>
wrote:

> FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim
> usage would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.
>

sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we are not adding any
restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at
the event level?



> Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very difficult (if not impossible)
> to retract.
>

I agree. I don't think anything is retracted.

Again, see:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2

Last sentence of 4.1.2 states "Use of this claim is OPTIONAL."



> In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.
>
> Mark
>
> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote:
>
> Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not
> work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and m=
ay
> not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP=
.
>
> Marius
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group =
or other
>> profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,
>> without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use=
,
>> and you=E2=80=99re golden.
>>
>>
>>
>> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the
>> requirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that
>> can use claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be
>> complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec,
>> which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.
>>
>>
>>
>> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a=
 sign of
>> success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <
>> jricher@mit.edu>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk
>> Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
>> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  =
I have a
>> lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply,
>> because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and
>> believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adopti=
on
>> to act upon them.  Specifically:
>>
>>
>>
>>    - I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim.
>>    Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many oth=
ers
>>    agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the =
logout
>>    token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.
>>    html#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in
>>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2
>>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2>)
>>    to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibitin=
g this usage would be
>>    a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s im=
possible to confuse a
>>    logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this thre=
ad.
>>
>> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentionin=
g
>> is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that
>> problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss o=
f
>> the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is
>> a real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>>
>>
>>
>> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind=
.
>> I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems
>> necessary in this case.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>
>>
>>    - (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
>>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1
>>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1=
>.
>>    No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described
>> above.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>
>>
>>    - It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to=
 be used for some
>>    profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should not =
be
>>    mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Cty=
p=E2=80=9D
>>    functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning.
>>
>> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about
>> that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can =
you
>> please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>
>>
>>    - I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile
>>    of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  This reflect=
s a
>>    misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the **value** of the nonce that self-=
secures
>>    the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is prese=
nt.  Any and all JWTs can
>>    simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of confli=
ct, since the nonce
>>    value is a cryptographically secure random number.
>>
>>
>>
>> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not
>> passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim co=
uld
>> have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to =
the
>> confusion problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>
>>
>> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d=
 be glad
>> to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (o=
r any other
>> claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes abou=
t
>> as much sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the
>> Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the c=
laim name instead
>> of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.  Yes, it will completely differentiate this pr=
ofile from others
>> not spelling the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an
>> impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standar=
d
>> location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is t=
he
>> actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for I=
d
>> Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in
>> which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
>> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <
>> mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
>> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>>
>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>
>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
>> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>
>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
>> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>
>> Did I miss anything?
>>
>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
>> SET document before it is published.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>     Yaron
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>
>> +1 to this as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
>> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>>
>>
>> Marius
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>>
>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
>> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve th=
is
>> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>
>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
>> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
>> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenanc=
e.
>>
>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
>> problem again.
>>
>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>>
>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
>> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are
>> both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defe=
nsive
>> measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general
>> solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsin=
g.
>> A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation =
for any JWT
>> profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique
>> logic.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
>> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>>
>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
>> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 maki=
ng things that can and
>> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need =
to do so.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
>> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s al=
ready been
>> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an=
 ID Token =E2=80=93
>> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn=
90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
>> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
>> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, s=
o
>> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on o=
ur
>> part.
>>
>>
>>
>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of=
 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
>> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thin=
gs
>> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
>> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would h=
ave
>> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we mak=
e
>> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
>> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards a=
re
>> only useful if they are actually used.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                 -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>>
>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>
>>
>>
>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
>> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purp=
ose
>> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether t=
o
>> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
>> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>
>> And a 2nd question.
>>
>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
>> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>
>>
>>
>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
>> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secur=
ity
>> event?)
>>
>>
>>
>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>
>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>
>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutu=
ally exclusive
>> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this require=
s a
>> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that =
JWTs from some
>> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>
>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=
=9Cdifferent
>> keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the =
spec or
>> not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier th=
an
>> managing N different keys.
>>
>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>>
>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
>> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
>> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
>> 3.9.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>
>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>>
>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>>     safety.
>>
>>
>>     Marius
>>
>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.inf=
o_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>
>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>
>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>
>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>
>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>>
>>                     +1
>>
>>                     Phil
>>
>>
>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>
>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>                      >
>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>                      >
>>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>>                     to an IdP.
>>                      >
>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>                     following:
>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>>                     level
>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>>                     be different
>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>>                     across events in the same SET
>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>                      >
>>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>>                     define event types to define additional claims
>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>                      >
>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>>                      >
>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>                     consider.
>>                      >
>>                      > Thoughts?
>>                      >
>>                      > Marius
>>
>>                      > _______________________________________________
>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>
>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                      >
>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
>> com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev
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>> r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp
>> 74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88
>> YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     Id-event mailing list
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>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
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Ws&e=3D>
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
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Ws&e=3D>
>>
>>             --
>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Id-event mailing list
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>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
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>>
>>         --
>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
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mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
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>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_
>> 3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=3D
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--001a113ee31e4e700905527ce2b7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, M.Lizar@OCG <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-creme=
d gmail-cremed cremed">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap=
:break-word"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Source Sans Pro&quot;,Helveti=
ca,Arial,sans-serif,&quot;Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro&quot;,Meiryo,&quot;Hirag=
ino Sans GB W3&quot;,&quot;Noto Naskh Arabic&quot;,&quot;Droid Arabic Naskh=
&quot;,&quot;Geeza Pro&quot;,&quot;Simplified Arabic&quot;,&quot;Noto Sans =
Thai&quot;,Thonburi,Dokchampa,&quot;Droid Sans Thai&quot;,&quot;Droid Sans =
Fallback&quot;,-apple-system,&quot;.SFNSDisplay-Regular&quot;,&quot;Heiti S=
C&quot;,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;;font-size:15px;fon=
t-variant-ligatures:normal;white-space:pre-line;background-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255)">FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the &quot;sub=
&quot; claim usage would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.<=
/span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>sub is defined as optional in =
JWT, so technically we are not adding any restrictions. Do you have example=
s of use cases that cannot handle sub at the event level?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div st=
yle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><font face=3D"Source Sans Pro, Helve=
tica, Arial, sans-serif, Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro, Meiryo, Hiragino Sans GB=
 W3, Noto Naskh Arabic, Droid Arabic Naskh, Geeza Pro, Simplified Arabic, N=
oto Sans Thai, Thonburi, Dokchampa, Droid Sans Thai, Droid Sans Fallback, -=
apple-system, .SFNSDisplay-Regular, Heiti SC, Microsoft Yahei, Segoe UI"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:15px;white-space:pre-line;background-color:rgb(255,2=
55,255)"><br></span></font></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255)"><span style=3D"font-size:15px;white-space:pre-line">Its a lot =
easier to add to a spec and very=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:15px;=
white-space:pre-line">difficult=C2=A0(if not impossible) to retract.</span>=
</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree. I don&#3=
9;t think anything is retracted.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, see:</div>=
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
Last sentence of 4.1.2 states &quot;Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.&quot;</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><span style=3D"bac=
kground-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style=3D"font-size:15px;white-space:p=
re-line"> In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.=
=C2=A0</span></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)"><span style=3D"font-size:15px;white-space:pre-line"><br></span></span=
></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style=
=3D"font-size:15px;white-space:pre-line">Mark</span></span></div><div><div =
class=3D"gmail-h5"><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><=
font color=3D"rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85098)"><span style=3D"font-size:15px;white-s=
pace:pre-line"><br></span></font></span></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div>On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cr=
emed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"gmail-m_213078=
3988945246535Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Mike, are you=
 suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not work for RISC? =
A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and may not work for l=
ogout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP.</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_213078398894=
5246535gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749668WordSection1"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius, there=E2=
=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) =
from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without any cha=
nges to the SET spec.=C2=A0 Specify the claims you want
 to use, and you=E2=80=99re golden.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">But it would be co=
unterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your =
specific profile.=C2=A0 There are simpler use cases that can use claims in =
simpler ways.=C2=A0 Trying to make the simple use
 cases be complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the=
 spec, which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.<u></u><u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">If s=
uccessful, SETs will have many different profiles.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a s=
ign of success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><a name=3D"m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749668__MailEndComp=
ose" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cr=
emed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;; Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;;=
 Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">richanna@amazon.co=
m</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cre=
med cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed crem=
ed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</p><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_213078398894=
5246535h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><br class=3D"gmail-m_21307=
83988945246535webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_21=
30783988945246535h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I=E2=80=99m =
sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.=C2=A0 I have a l=
ot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, beca=
use
 I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it=
 would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upo=
n them.=C2=A0 Specifically:</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.=C2=A0 Claims usage needs to be up to the application.=C2=A0 I know =
that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group de=
signed the logout token in
<a href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#L=
ogoutToken" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">
http://openid.net/specs/openid<wbr>-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.<wbr>html#Lo=
goutToken</a> (which is also used as an example in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section=
-2" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-secevent-token-01#sec<wbr>tion-=
2</a>) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.=C2=A0 Proh=
ibiting this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=
=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, =
for
 reasons already cites in this thread.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Solving the confusion is one problem. The other=
 problem I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. Ho=
w are we solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is diffe=
rent from the iss of the sub, a top level
 sub is not possible.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And I don&#39;t want to downplay the confusion =
problem either. I think it is a real concern and I think a solid solution i=
s important.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens=
 without secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibi=
lity, but to me it seems necessary in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-secevent-token-01#sec<wbr>tion-=
2.1</a>.=C2=A0 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<u></u><u=
></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the=
 RP to IdP case described above.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used=
 for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.=C2=A0 Its use sh=
ould not be mandated in the SET spec.=C2=A0 I would oppose duplicating the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplic=
ative meaning.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If typ can be use and no other claim is needed,=
 then let&#39;s talk about that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don&#3=
9;t understand why not. Can you please propose with examples how can typ be=
 used?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9C<s=
pan>No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</s=
pan>=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 This reflects a misunderstanding.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s th=
e *<b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that =
any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D
 claim is present.=C2=A0 Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cn=
once=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryp=
tographically secure random number.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is us=
eful. That value is not passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the pre=
sence of the claim could have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a =
very weak solution to the confusion problem.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);margin-left:0in">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit=
 next week?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-person discussions about t=
hese topics there.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wb=
r>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --=
 Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">P.S.=C2=A0 Food for thought:=C2=A0 Prohibiting t=
he use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claim) or forcing it to be lo=
cated in a non-standard location makes about as much
 sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word=
 for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name ins=
tead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Yes, it will completely differentiate =
this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it
 would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and =
to interoperability.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we define that sub must be at the event leve=
l then it is at a standard location, I don&#39;t see what the issue is. The=
 impediment you mention is the actual solution. I don&#39;t think that a JW=
T library that was written for Id Tokens should
 be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the =
event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_2130783988945246535_m_463971889864=
7749668_m_4441714448721077057__MailEndCompose" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-=
cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">yaronf.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">richanna=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.bir=
kholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-crem=
ed cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p>So to summarize what=
 I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p><p>Everybody agrees with M=
arius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules for &quot;sub&quot; and &qu=
ot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.<u></u><u></u></p><p>Almos=
t everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;type&quot;=
 is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u></u><u>=
</u></p><p>Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></p><p>By the way, if we do ad=
d a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use it in the SET document bef=
ore it is published.<u></u><u></u></p><p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p><p>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">+1 to this as well.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmai=
l-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requiremen=
t, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is b=
roken in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM=
) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gm=
ail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749668m_44417144487210=
77057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749668m_44417144487210=
77057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-creme=
d cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why thi=
s is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Con=
nect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_=
4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph=
">1.<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certa=
in that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the cal=
ler passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749668m4441=
714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">2.<span style=3D"font-=
size:7pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem =
again.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898=
647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">3.<span =
style=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=
<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749=
668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">4.<span style=
=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that =
cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attack=
s are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, d=
efensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use commo=
n libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library co=
uld handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo =
each profile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identit=
y Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Michael=
.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed crem=
ed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed =
cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk=
.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-=
cremed cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">You=E2=80=
=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d =
characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=
=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thre=
ad to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-arch<wbr>ive/web/id-event/current/msg00<wbr>428.h=
tml</a>.=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with speci=
fic kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide sp=
ecifics, so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">The prop=
osed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previo=
usly simple things unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mailto:id-event-boun=
ces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">henk.=
birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=
=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better an=
alogy would be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that =
declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to i=
t in some context.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identit=
y Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@googl=
e.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurte=
scu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>=
de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target=
 client, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource acc=
ess or SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;inte=
nd&quot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">dick.hardt=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quo=
t;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events=
 Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cr=
emed">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscur=
tescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cre=
med cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D169<wbr>0</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed=
 gmail-cremed cremed">adawes@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">adawes@google=
.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"g=
mail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">nov@matake.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">nov=
@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-crem=
ed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cr=
emed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-creme=
d gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed crem=
ed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVq=
XoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed =
gmail-cremed cremed">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<=
wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;<wbr>r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz<=
wbr>jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp<wbr>74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqm=
<wbr>g&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88<wbr>YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a=
><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
ent mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gma=
il-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">I=
d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9u=
gLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed =
gmail-cremed cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing li=
st<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed crem=
ed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JP=
KHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oM=
U7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed c=
remed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-crem=
ed gmail-cremed cremed">adawes@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adaw=
es@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed"=
>adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">+1 650-214-2410</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%2021=
4-2410" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">tel:(6=
50)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
r>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@i=
etf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwM=
GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3=
zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">http://hardtware.=
com/</a>&gt;
 mail list to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehY=
vlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmai=
l-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt;
 mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-creme=
d gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cr=
emed gmail-cremed cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-eve=
nt</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-creme=
d gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cr=
emed gmail-cremed cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-eve=
nt</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-creme=
d gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRo=
ai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_=
id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&amp;<wbr>r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz<wbr>jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&=
amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKH<wbr>shmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_<wbr>3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZu=
GzssKFZYVITX<wbr>9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>___________=
______<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-creme=
d gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pr=
e>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-=
cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing li=
st<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail=
-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-crem=
ed gmail-cremed cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event=
</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><br></div></div>

--001a113ee31e4e700905527ce2b7--


From nobody Wed Jun 21 13:19:42 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
CC: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "Yaron Sheffer" <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>,  Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:19:33 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/kzecCMeZoJGothbFzeaOlJLk7rI>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/zG5dZ36YxCo__yeASsrZAsRmhUE>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Mike

It also includes how i think scim and logout should be structures.=20

How is consistency so that any party can issue complex?

If we stick with the currently narrow scoped backchannel logout draft we cre=
ate a lot of complexity for everyone else. Namely that backchannel will requ=
ire special handling.=20

If risc issues logouts they will be different.=20

Phil

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Marius, the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that canno=
t handle sub at the event level?=E2=80=9D is no more useful than the questio=
n =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=
=E2=80=99 spelled as the Latin word =E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D  Y=
es, applications could always work around the inconveniences introduced by a=
rbitrary claim renaming or repositioning, but they shouldn=E2=80=99t have to=
.  It just adds complexity and will hinder adoption.
> =20
> It seems to me that your motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 in the event payload, rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s ho=
w you think RISC events will be structured, and that you want *all* events t=
o also use the RISC event structuring.  To my way of thinking, if you really=
 believe that you should be asking the SET spec to be withdrawn from the IET=
F and only define RISC events in the RISC working group.  But in fact, requi=
ring all events to follow the RISC conventions makes no more sense than requ=
iring all JWTs to be ID Tokens.  That would have made JWTs useless for many u=
se cases.  Proposing to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise make them i=
napplicable for many non-RISC use cases.
> =20
> We have a potential success on our hands.  Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up b=
y making it unnecessarily complicated.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM
> To: M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <=
richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justi=
n Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events=
 Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.co=
m> wrote:
> FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim usag=
e would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.
> =20
> sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we are not adding any re=
strictions. Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at the e=
vent level?
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very difficult (if not impossible) t=
o retract.
> =20
> I agree. I don't think anything is retracted.
> =20
> Again, see:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2
> =20
> Last sentence of 4.1.2 states "Use of this claim is OPTIONAL."
> =20
> =20
> In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.=20
> =20
> Mark
> =20
> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote:
> =20
> Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not w=
ork for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and may n=
ot work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or=
 other profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,=
 without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use, a=
nd you=E2=80=99re golden.
> =20
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the re=
quirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that can u=
se claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be complex w=
ill have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec, which wouldn=E2=
=80=99t be good for anyone.
> =20
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a s=
ign of success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>=
; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hu=
nt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> =20
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I h=
ave a lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply=
, because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and be=
lieve it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to a=
ct upon them.  Specifically:
> =20
> I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.  Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many o=
thers agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.htm=
l#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D c=
laim in the normal way.  Prohibiting this usage would be a completely unnece=
ssary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logo=
ut token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this thread.
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning i=
s SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that problem=
 Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of the sub, a=
 top level sub is not possible.
> =20
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is a=
 real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
> =20
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind. I=
 agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems nece=
ssary in this case.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1.  No further =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
> =20
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described a=
bove.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be use=
d for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should n=
ot be mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning=
.
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about that=
. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can you plea=
se propose with examples how can typ be used?
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9CN=
o other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  Thi=
s reflects a misunderstanding.  It=E2=80=99s the *value* of the nonce that s=
elf-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is p=
resent.  Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D wit=
hout any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secu=
re random number.
> =20
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not pas=
sed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim could hav=
e some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to the con=
fusion problem.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d b=
e glad to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or a=
ny other claim) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes=
 about as much sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, t=
he Latin word for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the cl=
aim name instead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.  Yes, it will completely differen=
tiate this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it w=
ould certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to i=
nteroperability.
> =20
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard l=
ocation, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is the ac=
tual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id Toke=
ns should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which c=
ase the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.c=
om>
> Cc: Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>=20
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "su=
b" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>=20
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) tha=
t should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>=20
> Did I miss anything?
>=20
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SE=
T document before it is published.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>     Yaron
>=20
> =20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
> +1 to this as well.
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> =20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
> =20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events t=
o an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr=
ote:
> +1
> =20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.c=
om> wrote:
>=20
> Mike,
> =20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effe=
cts of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue=
. As a result, I see several issues with it:
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be ce=
rtain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the c=
aller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this probl=
em again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile tha=
t cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.
>=20
> =20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both=
 things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive me=
asure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution a=
ctually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9C=
usage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT pro=
file, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing L=
ist <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=80=
=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessima=
tion=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex,=
 without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
> =20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that the=
re=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s already b=
een established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an=
 ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/curre=
nt/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible with sp=
ecific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide s=
pecifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering cho=
ices on our part.
> =20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make p=
reviously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then=
 different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsin=
g code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more u=
nwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just creat=
e their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Sta=
ndards are only useful if they are actually used.
> =20
>                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard Bac=
kman, Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz=
@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=
=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Us=
age extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of=
 the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to acce=
pt a JWT being presented to it in some context.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu <=
mscurtescu@google.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer
> =20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.de> wrote:
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend=
", "audience", and "scope"?
> =20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (=
access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security e=
vent?)
> =20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
> =20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutual=
ly exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ens=
ure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a=
 current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cd=
ifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is e=
asier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header pa=
rameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick=
.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Ev=
ents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and disti=
nct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3=
.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D=
JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YK=
OCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>         --=20
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to
>         learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn abou=
t projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
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=20
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> _______________________________________________
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> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> =20
> =20
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Mike</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">It also includes how i think sci=
m and logout should be structures.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"=
><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">How is consistency so that any par=
ty can issue complex?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature">If we stick with the currently narrow scoped backchanne=
l logout draft we create a lot of complexity for everyone else. Namely that b=
ackchannel will require special handling.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">If risc issues logouts they=
 will be different.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div>=
<div><br>On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Micha=
el.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, the question =E2=
=80=9C</span>Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at the=
 event level?<span style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=9D is no more useful than t=
he question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that
 cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 spelled as the Latin word </span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D&nbsp; Yes, appl=
ications could always work around the inconveniences introduced by arbitrary=
 claim renaming or repositioning, but they shouldn=E2=80=99t have to.&nbsp; I=
t just adds
 complexity and will hinder adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that you=
r motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the event payload, r=
ather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think RISC events w=
ill be structured, and that you want *<b>all</b>* events
 to also use the RISC event structuring.&nbsp; To my way of thinking, if you=
 really believe that you should be asking the SET spec to be withdrawn from t=
he IETF and only define RISC events in the RISC working group.&nbsp; But in f=
act, requiring all events to follow the
 RISC conventions makes no more sense than requiring all JWTs to be ID Token=
s.&nbsp; That would have made JWTs useless for many use cases.&nbsp; Proposi=
ng to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise make them inapplicable for m=
any non-RISC use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We have a potential suc=
cess on our hands. &nbsp;Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up by making it unnecess=
arily complicated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --=
 Mike</span><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002=
060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> M.Lizar@OCG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com">m=
.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:richanna@amazon.com">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.de</a>&gt;; Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@=
mit.edu</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com">=
yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:M=
.Lizar@OCG">
M.Lizar@OCG</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" target=3D=
"_blank">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">FWIW - I agree with Mike that putt=
ing restrictions on the "sub" claim usage would unnecessarily complicate SET=
s for some use cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we a=
re not adding any restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that canno=
t handle sub at the event level?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">Its=
 a lot easier to add to a spec and very&nbsp;difficult&nbsp;(if not impossib=
le) to retract.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree. I don't think anything is retracted.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Again, see:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.2&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXE=
w&amp;s=3DWAv_oD-AGnfjcT0NInPG9PZasQCX_Dw5V38zPQh54ZI&amp;e=3D">https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Last sentence of 4.1.2 states "Use of this claim is O=
PTIONAL."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">In t=
his regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">Mar=
k</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way=
 that they will not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not workin=
g for RISC, and may not work for logout either if you allow logout to be ini=
tiated from an RP.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stoppi=
ng you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) from defining events th=
at can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without
 any changes to the SET spec.&nbsp; Specify the claims you want to use, and y=
ou=E2=80=99re golden.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But it would be counterproductive to r=
equire all other SETs to meet the requirements of your specific profile.&nbs=
p; There are simpler use cases that can
 use claims in simpler ways.&nbsp; Trying to make the simple use cases be co=
mplex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec, which w=
ouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If successful, SETs will have many dif=
ferent profiles.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=80=93 not a sign=
 of weakness.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><a name=3D"m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"><span style=3D"=
color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:</span><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@=
google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246=
535_m_4639718898647749">mscurtescu@google.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookm=
ark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-=
bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_46=
39718898647749">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmar=
k:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bo=
okmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_46397=
18898647749">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_21307=
83988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_=
2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&gt;;
 Justin Richer &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blan=
k"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">jri=
cher@mit.edu</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_46397=
18898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_=
4639718898647749">&gt;;
 Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639=
718898647749">richanna@amazon.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_213078=
3988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2=
130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_46397=
18898647749">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span><span style=3D"mso-bookma=
rk:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-b=
ookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898=
647749">id-event@ietf.org</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_21307839889452=
46535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_213078398=
8945246535_m_4639718898647749">&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m=
_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246=
535_m_4639718898647749">&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4=
639718898647749"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4=
639718898647749"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:M=
ichael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_=
2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span><s=
pan style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span><=
/a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&gt=
;
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to som=
e messages in this thread.&nbsp; I have a lot of other
 things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because I wholeh=
eartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it would be s=
everely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upon them.&nbsp=
; Specifically:</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">I disa=
gree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim.=
&nbsp; Claims usage needs to be up to the application.&nbsp; I know that man=
y others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working
 group designed the logout token in </span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_specs_openid-2Dconnect-2Dbackchan=
nel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLI=
Gk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3DV4bNzT8chRJyN=
92Pg_XsPzUfrOOoyt5hVgu1TvOH10Y&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"ms=
o-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">http://openid.net/specs=
/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToken</span><span style=3D"mso=
-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D=
"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">
 (which is also used as an example in </span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dseceve=
nt-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQc=
xBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp=
;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3Dq9BxR1zqadSVOU5cAWa=
QrdhR7PWHoaH7yXZ1ZXegvmo&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-book=
mark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_21=
30783988945246535_m_4639718898647749"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark=
:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">)
 to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.&nbsp; Prohibiting=
 this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as i=
t=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, for reaso=
ns already cites in this thread.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning i=
s SETs issued by an RP to be sent
 to an IdP. How are we solving that problem Mike? In this case the top level=
 iss is different from the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not possible.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is a=
 real concern and I think a solid solution
 is important.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind. I=
 agree we should not recklessly break
 compatibility, but to me it seems necessary in this case.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo3">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">(I agr=
ee with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__too=
ls.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrK=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb=
2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3DygqO_3Tdt1Ca6tQHnanwAfVQ5TCXIYjaNuZ0ujffjK4&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_463971889=
8647749">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.=
1</span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"></span></a><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_46397188986=
47749">.&nbsp;
 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<o:p></o:p></span></li><=
/ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described a=
bove.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo4">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">It=E2=80=
=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used for some=
 profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.&nbsp; Its use should not b=
e mandated in the SET spec.&nbsp; I would oppose duplicating the
 =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplic=
ative meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about that=
. I do think SET should mandate it.
 I don't understand why not. Can you please propose with examples how can ty=
p be used?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo7">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">I=E2=80=
=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9CNo other p=
rofile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D&nbsp; This re=
flects a misunderstanding.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s the *<b>value</b>* of the nonc=
e that self-secures
 the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.&nb=
sp; Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without a=
ny risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secure ran=
dom number.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not pas=
sed back and it cannot be verified.
 Only the presence of the claim could have some use, hinting at the usage of=
 the JWT, a very weak solution to the confusion problem.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo8">
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749">&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Su=
mmit next week?&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d be glad to have
 in-person discussions about these topics there.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.&nbsp; Food for thought:&nbsp; Prohibiti=
ng the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claim) or forcing
 it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as much sense as ar=
bitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word for subject =E2=
=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name instead of =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; Yes, it will completely differentiate this
 profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it would cert=
ainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to interoper=
ability.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard l=
ocation, I don't see what the issue
 is. The impediment you mention is the actual solution. I don't think that a=
 JWT library that was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse SETs. Th=
e library has to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+sub is not a=
n issue at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:m_2130783988945246535_m_4639718898647749=
"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_b=
lank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurt=
escu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.=
com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "s=
ub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) th=
at should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the S=
ET document before it is published.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">+1 to this as well.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send ev=
ents to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">+1<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749668m_444171444872107=
7057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_4639718898647749668m_444171444872107=
7057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Mike,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon sid=
e effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this=
 issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m2130783988945246535m4639718898647749668m44417144487210770=
57m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that a=
 nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes=
 the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m2130783988945246535m4639718898647749668m44417144487210770=
57m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m2130783988945246535m4639718898647749668m44417144487210770=
57m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m2130783988945246535m4639718898647749668m44417144487210770=
57m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares ab=
out disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks ar=
e both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defens=
ive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common=
 libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library coul=
d handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo eac=
h profile would require unique logic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in t=
his thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making thing=
s that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions are being proposed=
 in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actuall=
y even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=
=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoa=
i115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</a>.&nb=
sp; If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of=
 Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so t=
hat we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D=
, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or=
 requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily
 complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but=
 a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, ra=
ther than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use S=
ETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key t=
o adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 K=
ey Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it=
 in some context.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Identity Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend",=
 "audience", and "scope"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended u=
sage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secu=
rity event?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually=
 exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this r=
equires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure=
 that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdif=
ferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by t=
he spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is ea=
sier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header para=
meter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">=
adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp=
" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9=
.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules=
 for<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds o=
f<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.=
".<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity=
 and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for J=
WT<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da=
7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a><b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping S=
ETS to be very similar to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is a=
 better plan.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM mat=
ake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.j=
p</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@m=
atake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "t=
ype"<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT=
+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br>=

<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distin=
guish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a=
 way that naive implementations will not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confus=
e one for the other and open up security<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulner=
abilities.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET is=
suer in some cases must be different from the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" i=
ssuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an I=
dP.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; follow=
ing:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be dif=
ferent<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across=
 events in the same SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (=
this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "shoul=
d" and not "must"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 event types to define additional claims<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relate=
d to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since a=
ll these claims will be at the event level<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there w=
ill be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the re=
quirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having=
 the same claim name having different syntax<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in dif=
ferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim f=
or JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; practi=
cal in the short term, and it also is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solvin=
g the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this i=
s something the JWT group should seriously<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consid=
er.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
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JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn=
88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_=
listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
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Bx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKO=
Cd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ______=
_________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-eve=
nt mailing list<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D=
Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4E=
Kb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ____________________=
___________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing lis=
t<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Id=
-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_=
id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmG=
MSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |=
<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawe=
s@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2=
B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank">+1 650-214-2410</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214=
-2410" target=3D"_blank">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; __________________________________=
_____________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-e=
vent@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proo=
fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp=
;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5=
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-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https:=
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FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoa=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; learn about projects I am working on!<br>
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-- <br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIG=
k&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpI=
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_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssK=
FZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2D=
event&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp=
;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j=
746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs=
&amp;e=3D</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3D9UokTYqV-86RKyE-t7=
os9NKKugLyEPazX22ZXERWg2k&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.or=
g</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLI=
Gk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3D9UokTYqV-86RK=
yE-t7os9NKKugLyEPazX22ZXERWg2k&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3D9UokTYqV-86RKyE-t7=
os9NKKugLyEPazX22ZXERWg2k&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>


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In-Reply-To: <04C1DB58-C70A-4B5D-8E17-D2D017CCBE5E@oracle.com>
From: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:37:54 +0000
Message-ID: <CABzCy2C=6ZdjMjFWLrtiKMY80ZxzrnXKRL8bkanGn+R0X-jv8w@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>,  Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/GkIYGN2ZLlYsKnyaPLaMaBS79ok>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Inferring the message type by the presence of a parameter is a bad
practice. We should use "typ" header parameter to express it explicitly,
e.g., "typ":"sevent+jwt" which is an abbreviation of
"application/sevent+jwt". We should not put restrictions on "sub" or any
other claims.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:34 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Mike
>
> It also includes how i think scim and logout should be structures.
>
> How is consistency so that any party can issue complex?
>
> If we stick with the currently narrow scoped backchannel logout draft we
> create a lot of complexity for everyone else. Namely that backchannel wil=
l
> require special handling.
>
> If risc issues logouts they will be different.
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marius, the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that cann=
ot
> handle sub at the event level?=E2=80=9D is no more useful than the questi=
on =E2=80=9CDo
> you have examples of use cases that cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 s=
pelled as the
> Latin word =E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D  Yes, applications could=
 always work around the
> inconveniences introduced by arbitrary claim renaming or repositioning, b=
ut
> they shouldn=E2=80=99t have to.  It just adds complexity and will hinder =
adoption.
>
>
>
> It seems to me that your motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D in the event
> payload, rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think=
 RISC
> events will be structured, and that you want **all** events to also use
> the RISC event structuring.  To my way of thinking, if you really believe
> that you should be asking the SET spec to be withdrawn from the IETF and
> only define RISC events in the RISC working group.  But in fact, requirin=
g
> all events to follow the RISC conventions makes no more sense than
> requiring all JWTs to be ID Tokens.  That would have made JWTs useless fo=
r
> many use cases.  Proposing to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise
> make them inapplicable for many non-RISC use cases.
>
>
>
> We have a potential success on our hands.  Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up =
by making
> it unnecessarily complicated.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com
> <mscurtescu@google.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Richard Backman,
> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron
> Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.or=
g>;
> Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, M.Lizar@OCG <
> m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim
> usage would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.
>
>
>
> sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we are not adding any
> restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at
> the event level?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very difficult (if not impossible)
> to retract.
>
>
>
> I agree. I don't think anything is retracted.
>
>
>
> Again, see:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.2&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbZvbjqZ8Wv=
jieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&s=3DWAv_oD-AGnfjcT0NInPG9PZasQCX_Dw5V38zP=
Qh54ZI&e=3D>
>
>
>
> Last sentence of 4.1.2 states "Use of this claim is OPTIONAL."
>
>
>
>
>
> In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not
> work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and m=
ay
> not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP=
.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group o=
r other
> profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,
> without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use,
> and you=E2=80=99re golden.
>
>
>
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the
> requirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that
> can use claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be
> complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec,
> which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.
>
>
>
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a =
sign of
> success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk
> Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I=
 have a
> lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply,
> because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and
> believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoptio=
n
> to act upon them.  Specifically:
>
>
>
>    - I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim.
>    Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many othe=
rs
>    agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout
>    token in
>    http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutT=
oken
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_spec=
s_openid-2Dconnect-2Dbackchannel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&d=3DDwMGaQ=
&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJ=
xPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&s=3DV=
4bNzT8chRJyN92Pg_XsPzUfrOOoyt5hVgu1TvOH10Y&e=3D>
>    (which is also used as an example in
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&s=3Dq9BxR1zqa=
dSVOU5cAWaQrdhR7PWHoaH7yXZ1ZXegvmo&e=3D>)
>    to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting=
 this usage would be
>    a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s imp=
ossible to confuse a
>    logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this threa=
d.
>
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning
> is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that
> problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of
> the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>
>
>
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is =
a
> real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>
>
>
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind.
> I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems
> necessary in this case.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1
>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&s=3DygqO_3T=
dt1Ca6tQHnanwAfVQ5TCXIYjaNuZ0ujffjK4&e=3D>.
>    No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
>
>
>
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described
> above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to =
be used for some
>    profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should not b=
e
>    mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D
>    functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning.
>
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about
> that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can y=
ou
> please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of
>    JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  This reflects a =
misunderstanding.
>    It=E2=80=99s the **value** of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=
=80=93 not that
>    any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.  Any and all JWTs can si=
multaneously use
>    =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a
>    cryptographically secure random number.
>
>
>
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not
> passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim cou=
ld
> have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to t=
he
> confusion problem.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d =
be glad
> to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or=
 any other claim)
> or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as muc=
h
> sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin wor=
d
> for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name in=
stead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.
> Yes, it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelli=
ng
> the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the u=
se
> of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>
>
>
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard
> location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is th=
e
> actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id
> Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in
> which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>
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>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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>
>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>
>             _______________________________________________
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>
>         --
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
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--=20

Nat Sakimura

Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation

--001a114a728855860d05527e585e
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Inferring the message type by the presence of a parameter =
is a bad practice. We should use &quot;typ&quot; header parameter to expres=
s it explicitly, e.g., &quot;typ&quot;:&quot;sevent+jwt&quot; which is an a=
bbreviation of &quot;application/sevent+jwt&quot;. We should not put restri=
ctions on &quot;sub&quot; or any other claims.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:34 AM Phil Hunt (I=
DM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Mik=
e</div><div id=3D"m_7165540287873991571AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div i=
d=3D"m_7165540287873991571AppleMailSignature">It also includes how i think =
scim and logout should be structures.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_7165540287873=
991571AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_7165540287873991571AppleMa=
ilSignature">How is consistency so that any party can issue complex?</div><=
div id=3D"m_7165540287873991571AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_7=
165540287873991571AppleMailSignature">If we stick with the currently narrow=
 scoped backchannel logout draft we create a lot of complexity for everyone=
 else. Namely that backchannel will require special handling.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv id=3D"m_7165540287873991571AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_71=
65540287873991571AppleMailSignature">If risc issues logouts they will be di=
fferent.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_7165540287873991571AppleMailSignature"><br=
>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>







<div class=3D"m_7165540287873991571WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, the question =
=E2=80=9C</span>Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at=
 the event level?<span style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=9D is no more useful =
than the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that
 cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 spelled as the Latin word </span><span=
 style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Yes, a=
pplications could always work around the inconveniences introduced by arbit=
rary claim renaming or repositioning, but they shouldn=E2=80=99t have to.=
=C2=A0 It just adds
 complexity and will hinder adoption.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that yo=
ur motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the event payload,=
 rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think RISC even=
ts will be structured, and that you want *<b>all</b>* events
 to also use the RISC event structuring.=C2=A0 To my way of thinking, if yo=
u really believe that you should be asking the SET spec to be withdrawn fro=
m the IETF and only define RISC events in the RISC working group.=C2=A0 But=
 in fact, requiring all events to follow the
 RISC conventions makes no more sense than requiring all JWTs to be ID Toke=
ns.=C2=A0 That would have made JWTs useless for many use cases.=C2=A0 Propo=
sing to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise make them inapplicable fo=
r many non-RISC use cases.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We have a potential su=
ccess on our hands.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up by making it unnece=
ssarily complicated.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 -- Mike</span><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_7165540287873991571__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_7165540287873991571WordSect=
ion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a=
>]
<br>
</p></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div class=3D"m_7165540287873991571WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> M.Lizar@OCG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annab=
elle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@=
amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jriche=
r@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</p></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_7165540287873991571WordS=
ection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_716554028787399157=
1WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:=
M.Lizar@OCG" target=3D"_blank">
M.Lizar@OCG</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" target=
=3D"_blank">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">FWIW - I agree with Mike that pu=
tting restrictions on the &quot;sub&quot; claim usage would unnecessarily c=
omplicate SETs for some use cases.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we=
 are not adding any restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that ca=
nnot handle sub at the event level?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">It=
s a lot easier to add to a spec and very=C2=A0difficult=C2=A0(if not imposs=
ible) to retract.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree. I don&#39;t think anything is retracted.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Again, see:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.2&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
kITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNz=
pbXEw&amp;s=3DWAv_oD-AGnfjcT0NInPG9PZasQCX_Dw5V38zPQh54ZI&amp;e=3D" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2</a><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Last sentence of 4.1.2 states &quot;Use of this clai=
m is OPTIONAL.&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">In=
 this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.=C2=A0</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">Ma=
rk</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a wa=
y that they will not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not work=
ing for RISC, and may not work for logout either if you allow logout to be =
initiated from an RP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, there=E2=80=99=
s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) from d=
efining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without
 any changes to the SET spec.=C2=A0 Specify the claims you want to use, and=
 you=E2=80=99re golden.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But it would be counte=
rproductive to require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your spec=
ific profile.=C2=A0 There are simpler use cases that can
 use claims in simpler ways.=C2=A0 Trying to make the simple use cases be c=
omplex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec, whic=
h wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If successful, SETs wi=
ll have many different profiles.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=
=80=93 not a sign of weakness.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_7165540287873991571_m_21307839889452465=
35_m_4639718898647749"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:</span><=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span>mscurtescu@=
google.com</span><span></span></a><span>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com" target=3D"_blank"><span>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span><span></span=
></a><span>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank"><span>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span><span></span></a><spa=
n>&gt;;
 Justin Richer &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span>jricher@mit.edu</span><span></span></a><span>&gt;;
 Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.co=
m" target=3D"_blank"><span>richanna@amazon.com</span><span></span></a><span=
>&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de=
" target=3D"_blank"><span>henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span><span></spa=
n></a><span>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span>id-event@ietf.org</span><span></span></a><span>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span>phil.hunt@oracle.com</span><span></span></a><span>&gt;<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &l=
t;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><=
span>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span><span></span></a><span>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorr=
y to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.=C2=A0 I have a lot o=
f other
 things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because I whole=
heartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it would b=
e severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upon them.=
=C2=A0 Specifically:</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D claim.=C2=A0 Claims usage needs to be up to the application.=C2=A0 I=
 know that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working
 group designed the logout token in </span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_specs_openid-2Dconnect-2Dbackch=
annel-2D1-5F0-2D04.html-23LogoutToken&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C=
_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3DV4bNzT8c=
hRJyN92Pg_XsPzUfrOOoyt5hVgu1TvOH10Y&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span>http:=
//openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToken</span=
><span></span></a><span>
 (which is also used as an example in </span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsece=
vent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3Dq9BxR1zqadSVOU=
5cAWaQrdhR7PWHoaH7yXZ1ZXegvmo&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span>https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2</span><span></span>=
</a><span>)
 to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.=C2=A0 Prohibitin=
g this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as=
 it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, for re=
asons already cites in this thread.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Solving the confusion is one problem. The othe=
r problem I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent
 to an IdP. How are we solving that problem Mike? In this case the top leve=
l iss is different from the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not possible=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>And I don&#39;t want to downplay the confusion=
 problem either. I think it is a real concern and I think a solid solution
 is important.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>The OpenID Working Group designed logout token=
s without secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break
 compatibility, but to me it seems necessary in this case.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__to=
ols.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;=
d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5=
biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E=
39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3DygqO_3Tdt1Ca6tQHnanwAfVQ5TCXIYjaNuZ0ujffjK4&amp;e=
=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-seceven=
t-token-01#section-2.1</span><span></span></a><span>.=C2=A0
 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<u></u><u></u></span></=
li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for th=
e RP to IdP case described above.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to b=
e used for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.=C2=A0 Its =
use should not be mandated in the SET spec.=C2=A0 I would oppose duplicatin=
g the
 =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a dupli=
cative meaning.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>If typ can be use and no other claim is needed=
, then let&#39;s talk about that. I do think SET should mandate it.
 I don&#39;t understand why not. Can you please propose with examples how c=
an typ be used?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=
=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 This reflects a misunderstanding.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s the *<=
b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures
 the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.=
=C2=A0 Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D with=
out any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secu=
re random number.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is u=
seful. That value is not passed back and it cannot be verified.
 Only the presence of the claim could have some use, hinting at the usage o=
f the JWT, a very weak solution to the confusion problem.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you=
 be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be glad to ha=
ve
 in-person discussions about these topics there.</span><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.=C2=A0 Food =
for thought:=C2=A0 Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any oth=
er claim) or forcing
 it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as much sense as a=
rbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word for subjec=
t =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name instead of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Yes, it will completely differentiate this
 profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it would cer=
tainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to interop=
erability.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>If we define that sub must be at the event lev=
el then it is at a standard location, I don&#39;t see what the issue
 is. The impediment you mention is the actual solution. I don&#39;t think t=
hat a JWT library that was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse SE=
Ts. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+sub =
is not an issue at all.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hun=
t@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>So to summarize what I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules f=
or &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;ty=
pe&quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use =
it in the SET document before it is published.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, fo=
r RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken=
 in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_7165540287873991571gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_46397188986477=
49668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_7165540287873991571gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_46397188986477=
49668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is de=
pendent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not desig=
ned to solve this issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_7165540287873991571gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that=
 a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller pas=
ses the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"m_7165540287873991571gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_7165540287873991571gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_7165540287873991571gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares a=
bout disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and r=
eplay attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is=
 a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use commo=
n libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library co=
uld handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo =
each profile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@s=
it.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard o=
f =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize =
the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions ar=
e being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidenc=
e that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</a>.=
=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kind=
s of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics,=
 so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9C=
solutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in=
 the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple th=
ings unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain w=
hat you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better analogy wou=
ld be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares =
the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to i=
t in some context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target clie=
nt, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access o=
r SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&qu=
ot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:n=
ov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing Li=
st &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a> &lt;mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake=
.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google=
.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-even=
t@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVq=
XoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman=
_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJm=
uutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn8=
8YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
__________________________________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
ent mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9u=
gLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
____________________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing li=
st<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JP=
KHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oM=
U7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</=
a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adaw=
es@google.com" target=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:=
%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank">+1 650-214-2410</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%2021=
4-2410" target=3D"_blank">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _________________________________=
______________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id=
-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwM=
GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3=
zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt;
 mail list to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehY=
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are.com/</a>&gt;
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<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c=
&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9u=
gLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3D9UokTYqV-86RKy=
E-t7os9NKKugLyEPazX22ZXERWg2k&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3D9UokTYqV-=
86RKyE-t7os9NKKugLyEPazX22ZXERWg2k&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DbZvbjqZ8WvjieTDo0RDVO7lra4E39zntb2VoNzpbXEw&amp;s=3D9UokTYqV-86RKy=
E-t7os9NKKugLyEPazX22ZXERWg2k&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div>____________________________________________=
___<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gma=
il_signature"><p dir=3D"ltr">Nat Sakimura</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation</p>
</div>

--001a114a728855860d05527e585e--


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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 15:39:32 -0500
In-Reply-To: <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>,  Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com> <1EE56A12-E2A2-400D-A561-8C6818C8BAA9@amazon.com> <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com> <6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C39@mit.edu> <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20

Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better =
but we can agree on a convention.

Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.

If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and =
confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using =
the typ parameter based on the existing spec.

In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually =
gets you into trouble.

I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a =
good idea. =20

It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.

If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for =
things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.

I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is =
scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not =
be required for all event types.

I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub =
issue.

Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.

John B.

> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>=20
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for =
"sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>=20
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) =
that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
> Did I miss anything?
>=20
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in =
the SET document before it is published.
> Thanks,
>=20
>     Yaron
>=20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>> +1 to this as well.
>>=20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>>>=20
>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>>>=20
>>> Marius
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>> +1
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Mike,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon =
side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to =
solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that =
can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any =
party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify =
its provenance.
>>>>=20
>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve =
this problem again.
>>>>=20
>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>>>>=20
>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks =
are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>=20
>>>> Identity Services
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  =
I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems =
that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s=
 already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the =
use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type =
claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, =
then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of =
this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 =
Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>=20
>>>> Identity Services
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>=20
>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended =
usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Henk
>>>>=20
>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>=20
>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>=20
>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>=20
>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>>>>=20
>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>=20
>>>> Identity Services
>>>>=20
>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, =
"matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>=20
>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should =
be in 3.9.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com> =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>=20
>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules =
for
>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of =
JWTs.".
>>>>=20
>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity =
and
>>>>     safety.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>     Marius
>>>>=20
>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes =
<adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very =
similar to
>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>=20
>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
<nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>=20
>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>>=20
>>>>                     +1
>>>>=20
>>>>                     Phil
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access =
Tokens in
>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > There is also another important requirement: =
the
>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from =
the
>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending =
SETs
>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose =
the
>>>>                     following:
>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event
>>>>                     level
>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level =
can
>>>>                     be different
>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note
>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > This solution also allows different profiles =
that
>>>>                     define event types to define additional claims
>>>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the event =
level
>>>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. =
Also,
>>>>                     having the same claim name having different =
syntax
>>>>                     in different token types could lead to =
confusion.
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a =
new
>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is =
not
>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I =
think
>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should =
seriously
>>>>                     consider.
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>                      >
>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>=20
>>>>                      > =
_______________________________________________
>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>                      >
>>>>                     =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74A=
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WI&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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xWI&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>>             --=20
>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> =
|+1 650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>>=20
>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>>         --=20
>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
kITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=3D>> mail list to
>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
kITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=3D>> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--Apple-Mail=_29D70A81-1E2C-41D0-901B-C8E65BA02BAC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">In the envelope typ is a media/mime type. &nbsp;Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =
&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Using the cty =
is also possible. &nbsp; I need to think about what is better but we can =
agree on a convention.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Not everything is going to be a set =
token like not every JWS is a JWT.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we are going to define processing =
rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for different =
purposes, we should just start using the typ parameter based on the =
existing spec.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am not convinced that forcing there =
to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is not the way we =
should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If sub is not allowed at =
the top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject is =
scoped to the iss of the token.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the =
event for cases where the sub is scoped differently from the issuer of =
the token is fine, but should not be required for all event =
types.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub =
issue.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sorry I =
am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><p class=3D"">So =
to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:</p><p class=3D"">Everybody =
agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific
      rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET =
spec.</p><p class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" =
claim ("type" is
      taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<br =
class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">Did I miss anything?</p><p class=3D"">By the way, =
if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it
      in the SET document before it is published.<br class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">Thanks,</p><p class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Yaron<br class=3D"">
    </p>
    <br class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer =
wrote:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C39@mit.edu" class=3D"">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
      +1 to this as well.
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        <div class=3D"">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
            <div class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu
              &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class=3D"">
              <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;
                charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
              <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle said.
                <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
                </div>
                <div class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other
                  requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The
                  iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.</div>
              </div>
              <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D"" clear=3D"all">
                <div class=3D"">
                  <div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div>
                </div>
                <br class=3D"">
                <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33
                  PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br class=3D"">
                  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
                      <div class=3D"">+1</div>
                      <div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">
                      </div>
                      <div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">Phil</div>
                      <div class=3D"">
                        <div class=3D"h5">
                          <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
                            On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard
                            Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                            <br class=3D"">
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
                            <div class=3D"">
                              <div =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">Mike,</span></p><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">Your =
explanation for why
                                    this is a non-problem is dependent
                                    upon side effects of elements of
                                    OpenID Connect that were not
                                    designed to solve this issue. As a
                                    result, I see several issues with
                                    it:</span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times
                                        New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">The caller of =
the Token
                                    Endpoint is the only party that can
                                    be certain that a nonce-less ID
                                    Token is really an ID Token. Any
                                    party that the caller passes the ID
                                    Token off to has no way to verify
                                    its provenance.</span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times
                                        New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">Any future ID =
Token
                                    distribution method needs to solve
                                    this problem again.</span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span class=3D"">3.<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt
                                        &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">No other =
profile of JWT can
                                    ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""></span></p><p =
class=3D"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""><span class=3D"">4.<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt
                                        &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">This is only a =
solution for
                                    ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
                                    that cares about disambiguation has
                                    to invent its own solution to the
                                    problem.</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""></span></p><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">We know from =
experience
                                    that naming collisions and replay
                                    attacks are both things that happen.
                                    What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a =
simple,
                                    defensive measure against these
                                    risks. You brought up JWT libraries:
                                    a general solution actually makes it
                                    easier to use common libraries for
                                    JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=
=80=9D JWT
                                    library could handle disambiguation
                                    for any JWT profile, whereas with
                                    the status quo each profile would
                                    require unique logic.</span></p><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services</p>
                                </div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid=

                                  #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                  0in" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" =
class=3D"">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style=3D"font-family:
                                      Calibri;" class=3D"">Id-event =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                      June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br =
class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">To: </b>Marius
                                      Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Cc: </b>"Richard
                                      Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                      ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                      Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve =
heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature
                                    optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99=
d characterize the
                                    proposals in this thread as
                                    =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=93 making
                                    things that can and should be simple
                                    complex, without data showing
                                    there=E2=80=99s any need to do =
so.</span></p><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">Mandatory =
solutions are
                                    being proposed in this thread to
                                    problems that there=E2=80=99s no =
evidence
                                    that we actually even have.&nbsp; =
It=E2=80=99s
                                    already been established that it=E2=80=
=99s
                                    impossible for a SET to be confused
                                    for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
                                      https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr =
class=3D"">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr =
class=3D"">msg00428.html</a>.&nbsp; If
                                    people have data showing that this
                                    is possible with specific kinds of
                                    Access Tokens or other real JWT
                                    deployments, please provide
                                    specifics, so that we can use that
                                    data to inform appropriate
                                    engineering choices on our =
part.</span></p><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">The proposed =
=E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D,
                                    such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
                                    in the normal way, or requiring a
                                    type claim, would make previously
                                    simple things unnecessarily
                                    complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result =
is
                                    then different than a normal JWT but
                                    a consequence of this is that custom
                                    parsing code would have to be used,
                                    rather than a standard JWT =
parser.&nbsp;
                                    The more unwieldy we make it to use
                                    SETs, the more likely developers are
                                    to just create their own data
                                    structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple =
is
                                    the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards =
are
                                    only useful if they are actually
                                    used.</span></p><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span></p><div =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div class=3D"">
                                  <div =
style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid
                                    #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                    0in" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""> Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr =
class=3D"">org</a>]
                                        <b class=3D"">On Behalf Of =
</b>Richard
                                        Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D"">
                                        <b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Tuesday,
                                        June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br =
class=3D"">
                                        <b class=3D"">To:</b> Marius
                                        Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;;
                                        Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                        <b class=3D"">Cc:</b> ID Events
                                        Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                        <b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re:
                                        [Id-event] solution for
                                        Id/Access Token confusion and
                                        distinct SET issuer</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">Echoing =
Marius=E2=80=99s question:
                                    can you explain what you mean by
                                    =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span></p><d=
iv class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">To your first question, I
                                    think a better analogy would be the
                                    X.509 Key Usage extension: a
                                    multi-valued property that declares
                                    the intended purpose of the JWT, and
                                    that a recipient may refer to when
                                    determining whether to accept a JWT
                                    being presented to it in some
                                    context.</span></p><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nbsp;</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services</p>
                                </div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid=

                                  #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                  0in" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" =
class=3D"">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style=3D"font-family:
                                      Calibri;" class=3D"">Id-event =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Date: </b>Tuesday,
                                      June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br =
class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">To: </b>Henk =
Birkholz
                                      &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Cc: </b>ID Events
                                      Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                </div>
                                <div class=3D"">
                                  <div class=3D"">
                                    <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun
                                        13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk
                                        Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                      <blockquote =
style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
=
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd
                                          question.<br class=3D"">
                                          <br class=3D"">
                                          What semantics would "usage"
                                          provide that that are not
                                          covered via "intend",
                                          "audience", and "scope"?</p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">"aud"
                                          (audience) specifies the
                                          target client, but not the
                                          intended usage (access token
                                          to authorize resource access
                                          or SET to communicate a
                                          security event?)</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">"scope" is
                                          not used by SET.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">I don't
                                          know what do you mean by
                                          "intend" (or intent)?</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote =
style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
=
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
                                          <br class=3D"">
                                          Henk<br class=3D"">
                                          <br class=3D"">
                                          On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM,
                                          Richard Backman, Annabelle
                                          wrote:</p>
                                        <blockquote =
style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid
                                          #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                          0in
=
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks
                                            for putting this =
together!<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            I think the assumptions
                                            inherent in 3.9 are =
flawed:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t =
guarantee that
                                            every type of JWT will have
                                            a mutually exclusive set of
                                            valid claims and/or header
                                            parameters, and enforcing
                                            this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail =
on an
                                            unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach
                                            to ensure that JWTs from
                                            some future spec can=E2=80=99t=
 be
                                            mistaken for JWTs from a
                                            current spec.<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            =C2=B7It is unrealistic to =
expect
                                            implementers to adhere to
                                            the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys =
for
                                            different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D=

                                            rule. Whether mandated by
                                            the spec or not,
                                            implementers will ignore
                                            this because managing one
                                            key is easier than managing
                                            N different keys.<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
                                            claims.<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D=
 or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D
                                            claim/header parameter.<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            -- <br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            Annabelle Richard Backman<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            Identity Services<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            *From: *Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                            on behalf of Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                            *Date: *Monday, June 12,
                                            2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">=

                                            *To: *Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                            *Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                            "matake, nov" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;,
                                            ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                            "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                            *Subject: *Re: [Id-event]
                                            solution for Id/Access Token
                                            confusion and distinct SET
                                            issuer<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            Agreed. Note that there is
                                            still lots of discussion on
                                            what should be in 3.9.<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15
                                            PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the =
pointer
                                            Dick, very good timing =
:-)<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is =
described
                                            by "2.7. Cross-JWT
                                            Confusion" and the<br =
class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is =
in "3.9.
                                            Use Mutually Exclusive
                                            Validation Rules for<br =
class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; Different =
Kinds of
                                            JWTs", specifically "Use
                                            different sets of<br =
class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; required =
claims...",
                                            "Use different keys for
                                            different kinds of<br =
class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and =
"Use
                                            different issuers for
                                            different kinds of =
JWTs.".<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; I still think =
that a
                                            "type" claim would bring a
                                            lot of clarity and<br =
class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, =
2017 at
                                            9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Yaron, Mike and I
                                            just published an BCP ID for
                                            JWT<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">1690</a><br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
On Thu, Jun 8, 2017
                                            at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially
                                            a fan of keeping SETS to be
                                            very similar to<br class=3D"">=

                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I
                                            now think this is a better
                                            plan.<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8,
                                            2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov
                                            &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">nov@matake.jp</a><br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1
                                            especially for "type"<br =
class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09
                                            10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt
                                            (IDM)<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr =
class=3D"">:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On
                                            Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM,
                                            Marius Scurtescu<br =
class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a></p>
                                          <div class=3D"">
                                            <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; There were a
                                                couple of proposals on
                                                how to<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                distinguish SETs from Id
                                                Tokens and Access Tokens
                                                in<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such
                                                a way that naive
                                                implementations will =
not<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                confuse one for the
                                                other and open up
                                                security<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                vulnerabilities.<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; There is also
                                                another important
                                                requirement: the<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET
                                                issuer in some cases
                                                must be different from
                                                the<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                "sub" issuer. This is
                                                the case of an RP
                                                sending SETs<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to
                                                an IdP.<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; With these
                                                requirements in mind I
                                                propose the<br class=3D"">=

                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                following:<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" =
and
                                                "iss" to be defined at
                                                the event<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                level<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at =
event
                                                level and at top SET
                                                level can<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be
                                                different<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and =
"sub"
                                                at event level can be
                                                different<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                across events in the
                                                same SET<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" =
should NOT
                                                be present at the top
                                                SET<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                level (this solves the
                                                disambiguation), please
                                                note<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                "should" and not =
"must"<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; This solution =
also
                                                allows different
                                                profiles that<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                define event types to
                                                define additional =
claims<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                related to sub (like
                                                email or phone_number)
                                                and<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                since all these claims
                                                will be at the event
                                                level<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                there will be no
                                                collisions or =
ambiguity.<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Another =
proposal
                                                (which I supported) was
                                                to<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                define a composite "aud"
                                                claim. This is not
                                                solving<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the
                                                requirement for a
                                                distinct&nbsp; SET =
issuer.
                                                Also,<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                having the same claim
                                                name having different
                                                syntax<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in
                                                different token types
                                                could lead to =
confusion.<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; And yet =
another
                                                proposal was to
                                                introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                claim for JWTs that
                                                defines a "type". This
                                                is not<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                practical in the short
                                                term, and it also is =
not<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                solving the distinct
                                                issuer requirement, but
                                                I think<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this
                                                is something the JWT
                                                group should =
seriously<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                consider.<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Marius<br =
class=3D"">
                                                <br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;
                                                =
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Id-event =
mailing
                                                list</p>
                                            </div>
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                            =
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
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                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; -- <br class=3D"">
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class=3D"">listinfo/id-event</a></p>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <div class=3D"">
                                          <div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">
                                              Id-event mailing list<br =
class=3D"">
                                              <a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
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                                              <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/id-event</a></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
                        <div class=3D"">
                          <div class=3D"">
                            <div class=3D"h5"><span =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________</span><br class=3D"">
                              <span class=3D"">Id-event mailing =
list</span><br class=3D"">
                              <span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br class=3D"">
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
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moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr =
class=3D"">2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr =
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class=3D"">TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr =
class=3D"">wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr =
class=3D"">00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr =
class=3D"">7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a> </span><br class=3D"">
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br class=3D"">
              </div>
              _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">
              Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">
              <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br class=3D"">
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <br class=3D"">
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br class=3D"">
      <pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br class=3D"">
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>,  Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
Thread-Index: AQHS4L+9LvfopeZFDkirzZrO/XTOmqIbvu8AgAAGsYCAACMqAIAAEBEAgAXYe4CAAADegP//lqwAgAEftACAAJUjgP//9x6AgAG/8QD//9AlgAAO8LsAACLOTQAABCSqAABn9XkAAMj4pQD//468gA==
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:54:09 +0000
Message-ID: <B93EF6E6-4D6F-4A18-A6EE-9EF28FC21C1B@amazon.com>
References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com> <1EE56A12-E2A2-400D-A561-8C6818C8BAA9@amazon.com> <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com> <6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C39@mit.edu> <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com> <6A2C250A-D2E3-4868-950F-DFAFBDF3C394@ve7jtb.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/visCSqMHRWcjegA8NhNDRHKDIDU>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 15:58:49 -0500
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Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>
References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com> <1EE56A12-E2A2-400D-A561-8C6818C8BAA9@amazon.com> <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com> <6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C39@mit.edu> <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com> <6A2C250A-D2E3-4868-950F-DFAFBDF3C394@ve7jtb.com> <B93EF6E6-4D6F-4A18-A6EE-9EF28FC21C1B@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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	charset=utf-8

I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the =
same family that agree on top level claims.

Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a =
alternative format to JWT in some ways.

John B.

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub =
problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is =
probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
> =20
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate =
conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, =
Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=
=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then =
they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap =
seems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling =
SET.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil =
Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
> =20
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better =
but we can agree on a convention.
> =20
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
> =20
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and =
confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using =
the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
> =20
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.
> =20
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is =
a good idea. =20
> =20
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
> =20
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for =
things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
> =20
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub =
is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should =
not be required for all event types.
> =20
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub =
issue.
> =20
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules =
for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is =
taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>> Did I miss anything?
>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in =
the SET document before it is published.
>> Thanks,
>>     Yaron
>> =20
>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>> +1 to this as well.=20
>>> =20
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>> =20
>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>>>>=20
>>>> Marius
>>>> =20
>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>> +1
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon =
side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to =
solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that =
can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any =
party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify =
its provenance.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve =
this problem again.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks =
are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D. =
 I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematu=
re pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems =
that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s=
 already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the =
use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type =
claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, =
then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of =
this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean =
by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the =
X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the =
intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when =
determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some =
context.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered =
via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the =
intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to =
communicate a security event?)
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will =
have a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, =
and enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=
=9D approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what =
should be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and =
the
>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation =
Rules for
>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets =
of
>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different =
kinds of
>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of =
JWTs.".
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of =
clarity and
>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes =
<adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very =
similar to
>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
<nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how =
to
>>>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access =
Tokens in
>>>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations will =
not
>>>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up =
security
>>>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > There is also another important =
requirement: the
>>>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different =
from the
>>>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP =
sending SETs
>>>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I =
propose the
>>>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at =
the event
>>>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET =
level can
>>>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>>>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET
>>>>>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), =
please note
>>>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different =
profiles that
>>>>>>>>                     define event types to define additional =
claims
>>>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) =
and
>>>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the event =
level
>>>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was =
to
>>>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>>>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. =
Also,
>>>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having different =
syntax
>>>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to =
confusion.
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to =
introduce a new
>>>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This =
is not
>>>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is =
not
>>>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, =
but I think
>>>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should =
seriously
>>>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                      > =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>                     =
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xWI&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                     =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>                     =
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> =20


--Apple-Mail=_B42977B3-3AD8-4F53-A7BA-6EF19036D151
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages =
form the same family that agree on top level claims.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Otherwise there can be no top level =
claims and we are really defining a alternative format to JWT in some =
ways.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John =
B.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub =
problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is =
probably not the right setting to discuss the former.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">My concern with the sub claim is that two =
profiles may dictate conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99=
s a phone number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If =
these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject =
of their events, then they cannot be present within the same token. This =
incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily missed by =
groups profiling SET.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">John Bradley =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, =
2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Annabelle Richard &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the envelope typ is a media/mime type. =
&nbsp;Registering application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured =
name sufix. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Using the cty is also possible. &nbsp; I need to =
think about what is better but we can agree on a convention.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Not everything is going to be a set token like not =
every JWS is a JWT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">If we are going to define processing rules to stop =
collisions and confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should =
just start using the typ parameter based on the existing spec.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In general content sniffing if there is =
more than one option eventually gets you into trouble.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I am not convinced that forcing there to =
be no sub at the top level is a good idea. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It is not the way we should differentiate =
between SET and id_tokens.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do =
non SET JWT for things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the =
token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the event for =
cases where the sub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token =
is fine, but should not be required for all event types.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think we should solve the confusion =
issue separately from the sub issue.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">So to summarize what =
I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term =
solution, specific rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the =
SET spec.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" =
is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Did =
I miss anything?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use =
it in the SET document before it is published.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 15/06/17 22:08, =
Justin Richer wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">+1 to this as =
well.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle =
said.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other =
requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the =
top level is broken in this case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Mike,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with =
it:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><p =
class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">No=
 other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We=
 know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both =
things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general =
solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT =
parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, =
2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,=
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature =
optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in =
this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making =
things that can and should be simple complex, without data showing =
there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are =
being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no =
evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been =
established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428=
.html</a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that this is possible with =
specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please =
provide specifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate =
engineering choices on our part.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The proposed =
=E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make =
previously simple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the =
result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is =
that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard =
JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.&nbsp; =
Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only =
useful if they are actually used.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
-- Mike</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Richard =
Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for =
Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s =
question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span=
><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To=
 your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key =
Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some =
context.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 =
at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 =
at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">And a 2nd =
question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What semantics would "usage" =
provide that that are not covered via "intend", "audience", and =
"scope"?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not =
the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to =
communicate a security event?)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">"scope" is not used =
by SET.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or =
intent)?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thanks for putting =
this together!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the assumptions =
inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7We =
can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually =
exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing =
this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach =
to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for =
JWTs from a current spec.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is =
unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent =
keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the =
spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is =
easier than managing N different keys.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header parameter.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Identity Services<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">*From: =
*Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Date: *Monday, =
June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam Dawes =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject: *Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. Note that there is still =
lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing =
:-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by =
"2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use =
different sets of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use =
different keys for different kinds of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." =
and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" =
claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
safety.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at =
9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published =
an BCP ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM =
Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a =
fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is a better =
plan.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "type"<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There were a couple of proposals =
on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens =
in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; such a way that naive implementations will not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; confuse one for the other and open up security<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; to an IdP.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; following:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and =
"iss" to be defined at the event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level =
can<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and =
"sub" at event level can be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across events in the =
same SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles =
that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define event types to define additional claims<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; related to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; since all these claims will be at the event level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Another proposal =
(which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define a composite "aud" =
claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the requirement for a =
distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having the same claim =
name having different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in different token types could =
lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; practical in the short term, and it also is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; this is something the JWT group should seriously<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; consider.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9=
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 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
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class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
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class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
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purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |<a =
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purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br =
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_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
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href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
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class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
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class=3D""><a =
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VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></=
div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssK=
FZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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--94eb2c059e14a81e5a05527ea277--


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Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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There are several problems that moving sub is w to. Note some of these may b=
e somewhat conflicting but i wanted to get the out on the table...

1. Typing: Since there is no strong typing, moving sub from top level ensure=
s the existing code should reject SETs. Yes we can also use the typing propo=
sal in the header. The concern seems to be that existing implementations wil=
l ignore.=20

2. Hard differentiator: Since sub's common usage is not globally unique, it o=
ften needs to be bound to an issuer for sub. The current draft works well if=
 set issuer and sub issuer happen to be the same. But as far as I can tell r=
eviewing the use cases this is only true for the current logout spec.

3. Consistency for Events: Having varying rules per spec at the top level me=
ans lack of interop. Many implementers expect to process provisioning, risk,=
 and session management events through the same systems. To get around this d=
eployers would have to deploy many more streams with specific logic generati=
ng potentially big pile of spaghetti architecture.=20

4. Common usage practice: Should sub be used for other purposes?  Eg a secur=
ity event about an ipaddress? Is it better to encourage profilers to avoid r=
e-using sub at the top level and use a domain specific claim like ipaddresss=
?  Do we profile any use of sub at the top level to be globally unique and s=
elf defining?
Eg. "Sub":"urn:ietf:params:set:ipaddress:1.2.3.4"

Did I miss any?

Phil

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:39 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>=20
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jwt=
 if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
>=20
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better but=
 we can agree on a convention.
>=20
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>=20
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusio=
n around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ para=
meter based on the existing spec.
>=20
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually ge=
ts you into trouble.
>=20
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a g=
ood idea. =20
>=20
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>=20
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for thin=
gs where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>=20
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is sc=
oped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be req=
uired for all event types.
>=20
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.=

>=20
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>=20
> John B.
>=20
>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:=

>>=20
>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>=20
>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "s=
ub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>=20
>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) th=
at should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>> Did I miss anything?
>>=20
>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the S=
ET document before it is published.
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>>     Yaron
>>=20
>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>> +1 to this as well.
>>>=20
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>=20
>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>=20
>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>>>>=20
>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send event=
s to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>>>>=20
>>>> Marius
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com=
> wrote:
>>>>> +1
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amaz=
on.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side=
 effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this i=
ssue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can b=
e certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that t=
he caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this p=
roblem again.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D clai=
m.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profil=
e that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the prob=
lem.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are=
 both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensi=
ve measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solu=
tion actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=
=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any J=
WT profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique lo=
gic.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <M=
ichael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mai=
ling List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.d=
e>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pess=
imation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple compl=
ex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems tha=
t there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alre=
ady been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused f=
or an ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/=
current/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible wi=
th specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please pro=
vide specifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineeri=
ng choices on our part.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use=
 of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, woul=
d make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result=
 is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custo=
m parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  Th=
e more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to ju=
st create their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adopti=
on.  Standards are only useful if they are actually used.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richar=
d                                         Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.bir=
kholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 K=
ey Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to=
 accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius Scurte=
scu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "i=
ntend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended us=
age (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secur=
ity event?)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a m=
utually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcin=
g this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach t=
o ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs f=
rom a current spec.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=
=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandate=
d by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key=
 is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claim=
s.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/head=
er parameter.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <=
dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>,                                =
             "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event=
@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be=
 in 3.9.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.=
com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT                        =
                     Confusion" and the
>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules fo=
r
>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity an=
d
>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar t=
o
>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp=

>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:=

>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens=
 in
>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > There is also another important requirement: t=
he
>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from t=
he
>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending S=
ETs
>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the ev=
ent
>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level ca=
n
>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be differ=
ent
>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please no=
te
>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different profiles t=
hat
>>>>>>                     define event types to define additional claims
>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the event level=

>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solvi=
ng
>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,=

>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having different synta=
x
>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.=

>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a ne=
w
>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not=

>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I th=
ink
>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                      > ______________________________________________=
_
>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIG=
k&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoV=
pn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list t=
o
>>>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn=
 about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkK=
Y057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWW=
s&e=3D=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20

--Apple-Mail-57E11D16-9513-4881-8DD3-1B1D8AEC42B0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>There are several problems that moving=
 sub is w to. Note some of these may be somewhat conflicting but i wanted to=
 get the out on the table...</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><=
div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">1. Typing: Since there is no strong typing, mo=
ving sub from top level ensures the existing code should reject SETs. Yes we=
 can also use the typing proposal in the header. The concern seems to be tha=
t existing implementations will ignore.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">2. Hard differentiator: Since=
 sub's common usage is not globally unique, it often needs to be bound to an=
 issuer for sub. The current draft works well if set issuer and sub issuer h=
appen to be the same. But as far as I can tell reviewing the use cases this i=
s only true for the current logout spec.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"=
><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">3. Consistency for Events: Having v=
arying rules per spec at the top level means lack of interop. Many implement=
ers expect to process provisioning, risk, and session management events thro=
ugh the same systems. To get around this deployers would have to deploy many=
 more streams with specific logic generating potentially big pile of spaghet=
ti architecture.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=
=3D"AppleMailSignature">4. Common usage practice: Should sub be used for oth=
er purposes? &nbsp;Eg a security event about an ipaddress? Is it better to e=
ncourage profilers to avoid re-using sub at the top level and use a domain s=
pecific claim like ipaddresss? &nbsp;Do we profile any use of sub at the top=
 level to be globally unique and self defining?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSig=
nature">Eg. "Sub":"urn:ietf:params:set:ipaddress:1.2.3.4"<br><br>Did I miss a=
ny?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 21, 20=
17, at 1:39 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com">ve7jtb=
@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html cha=
rset=3Dutf-8">In the envelope typ is a media/mime type. &nbsp;Registering ap=
plication/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. &nbsp;<div c=
lass=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Using the cty is also possibl=
e. &nbsp; I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a convent=
ion.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D=
"">Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.</d=
iv><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we are going to d=
efine processing rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for diffe=
rent purposes, we should just start using the typ parameter based on the exi=
sting spec.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In gen=
eral content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually gets you i=
nto trouble.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am n=
ot convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a good idea=
. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is not=
 the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<br class=3D""><d=
iv class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If sub is not allowed at t=
he top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject is scop=
ed to the iss of the token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div c=
lass=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the s=
ub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should no=
t be required for all event types.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div=
><div class=3D"">I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from=
 the sub issue.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So=
rry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.</div><div class=3D""><br cla=
ss=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3=
:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"=
">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
 class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><p class=3D"">So to s=
ummarize what I'm seeing on this thread:</p><p class=3D"">Everybody agrees w=
ith Marius's short-term solution, specific
      rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.</p><p c=
lass=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is
      taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<br class=
=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">Did I miss anything?</p><p class=3D"">By the way, if w=
e do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it
      in the SET document before it is published.<br class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">Thanks,</p><p class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<br c=
lass=3D"">
    </p>
    <br class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<b=
r class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:6AC4267E-287D-470D-9762-E00C56CB0C=
39@mit.edu" class=3D"">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-=
8" class=3D"">
      +1 to this as well.
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        <div class=3D"">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
            <div class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu
              &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"" moz-do=
-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class=3D"">
              <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;
                charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
              <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle said.
                <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
                </div>
                <div class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other
                  requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The
                  iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.</div=
>
              </div>
              <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D"" clear=3D"all">
                <div class=3D"">
                  <div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sig=
nature">Marius</div>
                </div>
                <br class=3D"">
                <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33
                  PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-s=
end=3D"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br class=3D"">
                  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
                      <div class=3D"">+1</div>
                      <div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" cl=
ass=3D""><br class=3D"">
                      </div>
                      <div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" cl=
ass=3D"">Phil</div>
                      <div class=3D"">
                        <div class=3D"h5">
                          <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
                            On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard
                            Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richann=
a@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                            <br class=3D"">
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
                            <div class=3D"">
                              <div class=3D"m_9094089239668570312WordSection=
1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibr=
i" class=3D"">Mike,</span></p><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-pla=
ceholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:Calibri" class=3D"">Your explanation for why
                                    this is a non-problem is dependent
                                    upon side effects of elements of
                                    OpenID Connect that were not
                                    designed to solve this issue. As a
                                    result, I see several issues with
                                    it:</span></p><p class=3D"m_909408923966=
8570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri=
" class=3D""><span class=3D"">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times
                                        New Roman&quot;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">The caller of the Token
                                    Endpoint is the only party that can
                                    be certain that a nonce-less ID
                                    Token is really an ID Token. Any
                                    party that the caller passes the ID
                                    Token off to has no way to verify
                                    its provenance.</span></p><p class=3D"m_=
9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri" class=3D""><span class=3D"">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;=
Times
                                        New Roman&quot;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">Any future ID Token
                                    distribution method needs to solve
                                    this problem again.</span></p><p class=3D=
"m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri" c=
lass=3D""><span class=3D"">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt
                                        &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">No other profile of JWT can
                                    ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=3D""></span></p><p class=3D"m_90=
94089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri" class=
=3D""><span class=3D"">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt
                                        &quot;Times New Roman&quot;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">This is only a solution for
                                    ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
                                    that cares about disambiguation has
                                    to invent its own solution to the
                                    problem.</span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Calibri" class=3D""></span></p><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-=
placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri" class=3D"">We know from experience
                                    that naming collisions and replay
                                    attacks are both things that happen.
                                    What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simpl=
e,
                                    defensive measure against these
                                    risks. You brought up JWT libraries:
                                    a general solution actually makes it
                                    easier to use common libraries for
                                    JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=
=9D JWT
                                    library could handle disambiguation
                                    for any JWT profile, whereas with
                                    the status quo each profile would
                                    require unique logic.</span></p><div cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbs=
p;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nb=
sp;</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identi=
ty Services</p>
                                </div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-b=
lock-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placehold=
er"></div>
                                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid
                                  #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                  0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b c=
lass=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" class=3D"">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style=3D"font-family:
                                      Calibri;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do=
-not-send=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not=
-send=3D"true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                      June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""=
>
                                      <b class=3D"">To: </b>Marius
                                      Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurt=
escu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscur=
tescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Cc: </b>"Richard
                                      Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"tru=
e">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                      ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                      Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:he=
nk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""=
>
                                      <b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br cl=
ass=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=
=9Cpremature
                                    optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d=
 characterize the
                                    proposals in this thread as
                                    =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 making
                                    things that can and should be simple
                                    complex, without data showing
                                    there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span=
></p><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=
=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">Mand=
atory solutions are
                                    being proposed in this thread to
                                    problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidenc=
e
                                    that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=
=99s
                                    already been established that it=E2=80=99=
s
                                    impossible for a SET to be confused
                                    for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see <a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2D=
archive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwl=
NKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLT=
QPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
                                      https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr class=3D=
"">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr class=3D"">msg00428.html</a>.&nbsp; If
                                    people have data showing that this
                                    is possible with specific kinds of
                                    Access Tokens or other real JWT
                                    deployments, please provide
                                    specifics, so that we can use that
                                    data to inform appropriate
                                    engineering choices on our part.</span><=
/p><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">The pro=
posed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D,
                                    such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D
                                    in the normal way, or requiring a
                                    type claim, would make previously
                                    simple things unnecessarily
                                    complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is
                                    then different than a normal JWT but
                                    a consequence of this is that custom
                                    parsing code would have to be used,
                                    rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp;=

                                    The more unwieldy we make it to use
                                    SETs, the more likely developers are
                                    to just create their own data
                                    structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is
                                    the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are=

                                    only useful if they are actually
                                    used.</span></p><div class=3D""><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D=
"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span></p><div class=3D""><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#002060" class=3D"">&nbsp=
;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div class=3D"">
                                  <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid=

                                    #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                    0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D""=
>From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D=
""> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr class=
=3D"">org</a>]
                                        <b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>Richa=
rd
                                        Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D"">
                                        <b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Tuesday,
                                        June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D"">=

                                        <b class=3D"">To:</b> Marius
                                        Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;;
                                        Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-sen=
d=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D=
"">
                                        <b class=3D"">Cc:</b> ID Events
                                        Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-e=
vent@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                        <b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re:
                                        [Id-event] solution for
                                        Id/Access Token confusion and
                                        distinct SET issuer</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"web=
kit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question:
                                    can you explain what you mean by
                                    =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span></p><div=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">=
&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">To your=
 first question, I
                                    think a better analogy would be the
                                    X.509 Key Usage extension: a
                                    multi-valued property that declares
                                    the intended purpose of the JWT, and
                                    that a recipient may refer to when
                                    determining whether to accept a JWT
                                    being presented to it in some
                                    context.</span></p><div class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br c=
lass=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--&nb=
sp;</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identi=
ty Services</p>
                                </div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-b=
lock-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:Calibri" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placehold=
er"></div>
                                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid
                                  #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
                                  0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b c=
lass=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri;" class=3D"">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style=3D"font-family:
                                      Calibri;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do=
-not-send=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not=
-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Date: </b>Tuesday,
                                      June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D"=
">
                                      <b class=3D"">To: </b>Henk Birkholz
                                      &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.=
birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Cc: </b>ID Events
                                      Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                      <b class=3D"">Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br cl=
ass=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                </div>
                                <div class=3D"">
                                  <div class=3D"">
                                    <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">O=
n Tue, Jun
                                        13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk
                                        Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.=
birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"=
true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"border:none;borde=
r-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0p=
t" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd
                                          question.<br class=3D"">
                                          <br class=3D"">
                                          What semantics would "usage"
                                          provide that that are not
                                          covered via "intend",
                                          "audience", and "scope"?</p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>"aud"
                                          (audience) specifies the
                                          target client, but not the
                                          intended usage (access token
                                          to authorize resource access
                                          or SET to communicate a
                                          security event?)</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>"scope" is
                                          not used by SET.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>I don't
                                          know what do you mean by
                                          "intend" (or intent)?</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"border:none;borde=
r-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0p=
t" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
                                          <br class=3D"">
                                          Henk<br class=3D"">
                                          <br class=3D"">
                                          On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM,
                                          Richard Backman, Annabelle
                                          wrote:</p>
                                        <blockquote style=3D"border:none;bor=
der-left:solid
                                          #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                          0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0p=
t" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks
                                            for putting this together!<br cl=
ass=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            I think the assumptions
                                            inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee=
 that
                                            every type of JWT will have
                                            a mutually exclusive set of
                                            valid claims and/or header
                                            parameters, and enforcing
                                            this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on=
 an
                                            unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D appr=
oach
                                            to ensure that JWTs from
                                            some future spec can=E2=80=99t b=
e
                                            mistaken for JWTs from a
                                            current spec.<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expec=
t
                                            implementers to adhere to
                                            the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for
                                            different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D=

                                            rule. Whether mandated by
                                            the spec or not,
                                            implementers will ignore
                                            this because managing one
                                            key is easier than managing
                                            N different keys.<br class=3D"">=

                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
                                            claims.<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D o=
r =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D
                                            claim/header parameter.<br class=
=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            -- <br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            Annabelle Richard Backman<br cla=
ss=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            Identity Services<br class=3D"">=

                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            *From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-se=
nd=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                            on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-=
send=3D"true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                            *Date: *Monday, June 12,
                                            2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">
                                            *To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-=
send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                            *Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                            "matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">nov=
@matake.jp</a>&gt;,
                                            ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=
=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                            "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                            *Subject: *Re: [Id-event]
                                            solution for Id/Access Token
                                            confusion and distinct SET
                                            issuer<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            Agreed. Note that there is
                                            still lots of discussion on
                                            what should be in 3.9.<br class=3D=
"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15
                                            PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-se=
nd=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ms=
curtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the poi=
nter
                                            Dick, very good timing :-)<br cl=
ass=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is descr=
ibed
                                            by "2.7. Cross-JWT
                                            Confusion" and the<br class=3D""=
>
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "=
3.9.
                                            Use Mutually Exclusive
                                            Validation Rules for<br class=3D=
"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of=

                                            JWTs", specifically "Use
                                            different sets of<br class=3D"">=

                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...=
",
                                            "Use different keys for
                                            different kinds of<br class=3D""=
>
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use
                                            different issuers for
                                            different kinds of JWTs.".<br cl=
ass=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that=
 a
                                            "type" claim would bring a
                                            lot of clarity and<br class=3D""=
>
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D=
"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D=
"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 201=
7 at
                                            9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-sen=
d=3D"true">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaro=
n, Mike and I
                                            just published an BCP ID for
                                            JWT<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.i=
nfo_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7J=
PKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsD=
kITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">h=
ttp://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr class=3D"">1690</a><br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On T=
hu, Jun 8, 2017
                                            at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz=
-do-not-send=3D"true">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; I was initially
                                            a fan of keeping SETS to be
                                            very similar to<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; id tokens but I
                                            now think this is a better
                                            plan.<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8,
                                            2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov
                                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake=
.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">nov@matake.jp</a>=
<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1
                                            especially for "type"<br class=3D=
"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09
                                            10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt
                                            (IDM)<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phi=
l.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phi=
l.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr class=3D"">:<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On
                                            Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM,
                                            Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@googl=
e.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@goog=
le.com</a></p>
                                          <div class=3D"">
                                            <div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true=
">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; There were a
                                                couple of proposals on
                                                how to<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                distinguish SETs from Id
                                                Tokens and Access Tokens
                                                in<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such
                                                a way that naive
                                                implementations will not<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                confuse one for the
                                                other and open up
                                                security<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                vulnerabilities.<br class=3D=
"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; There is also
                                                another important
                                                requirement: the<br class=3D=
"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET
                                                issuer in some cases
                                                must be different from
                                                the<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                "sub" issuer. This is
                                                the case of an RP
                                                sending SETs<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to
                                                an IdP.<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; With these
                                                requirements in mind I
                                                propose the<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                following:<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and
                                                "iss" to be defined at
                                                the event<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                level<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event
                                                level and at top SET
                                                level can<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be
                                                different<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and "sub"=

                                                at event level can be
                                                different<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                across events in the
                                                same SET<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NO=
T
                                                be present at the top
                                                SET<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                level (this solves the
                                                disambiguation), please
                                                note<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                "should" and not "must"<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; This solution als=
o
                                                allows different
                                                profiles that<br class=3D"">=

                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                define event types to
                                                define additional claims<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                related to sub (like
                                                email or phone_number)
                                                and<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                since all these claims
                                                will be at the event
                                                level<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                there will be no
                                                collisions or ambiguity.<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Another proposal
                                                (which I supported) was
                                                to<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                define a composite "aud"
                                                claim. This is not
                                                solving<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the
                                                requirement for a
                                                distinct&nbsp; SET issuer.
                                                Also,<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                having the same claim
                                                name having different
                                                syntax<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in
                                                different token types
                                                could lead to confusion.<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; And yet another
                                                proposal was to
                                                introduce a new<br class=3D"=
">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                claim for JWTs that
                                                defines a "type". This
                                                is not<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                practical in the short
                                                term, and it also is not<br c=
lass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                solving the distinct
                                                issuer requirement, but
                                                I think<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this
                                                is something the JWT
                                                group should seriously<br cl=
ass=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                consider.<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br clas=
s=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D=
"">
                                                <br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt;
                                                ____________________________=
__<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
                                                &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                &nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing
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                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                            ______________________________<w=
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                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; -- <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr.
                                            Product Manager |<a href=3D"mail=
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adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">
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                                            |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2=
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                                            <br class=3D"">
                                            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
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      <pre wrap=3D"" class=3D"">____________________________________________=
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Id-event mailing list
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To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current backcha=
nnel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own duplicate=
 definitions and meanings.=20

That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.

Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators w=
e had tried to make was an assumption that user initiated events would be pa=
rt of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calculatio=
ns like password reset.=20

There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not comm=
ands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single sign o=
ut not expected.=20

Phil

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>=20
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same f=
amily that agree on top level claims.
>=20
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a al=
ternative format to JWT in some ways.
>=20
> John B.
>=20
>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.=
com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub pro=
blem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably no=
t the right setting to discuss the former.
>> =20
>> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflictin=
g semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B says=
 it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an a=
lternate way to declare subject of their events, then they cannot be present=
 within the same token. This incompatibility trap seems like something that c=
ould be easily missed by groups profiling SET.
>> =20
>> --=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.=
com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id=
-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer
>> =20
>> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jw=
t if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
>> =20
>> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better bu=
t we can agree on a convention.
>> =20
>> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>> =20
>> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusi=
on around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ par=
ameter based on the existing spec.
>> =20
>> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually g=
ets you into trouble.
>> =20
>> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a g=
ood idea. =20
>> =20
>> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>> =20
>> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for thi=
ngs where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>> =20
>> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is s=
coped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be re=
quired for all event types.
>> =20
>> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue=
.
>> =20
>> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>> =20
>> John B.
>> =20
>>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>> =20
>>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "=
sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) t=
hat should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>> Did I miss anything?
>>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the S=
ET document before it is published.
>>> Thanks,
>>>     Yaron
>>> =20
>>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>> +1 to this as well.=20
>>>> =20
>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>> =20
>>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send even=
ts to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Marius
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m> wrote:
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@am=
azon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon sid=
e effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this=
 issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can=
 be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that=
 the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this=
 problem again.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D cla=
im.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profi=
le that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the pro=
blem.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks ar=
e both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defens=
ive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general sol=
ution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=
=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any J=
WT profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique lo=
gic.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Ma=
iling List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=
=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature p=
essimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple co=
mplex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems th=
at there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused f=
or an ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/=
current/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible wi=
th specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please pro=
vide specifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineeri=
ng choices on our part.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the us=
e of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, wou=
ld make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the resul=
t is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that cust=
om parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  T=
he more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to j=
ust create their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adopt=
ion.  Standards are only useful if they are actually used.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richa=
rd Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 K=
ey Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to=
 accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius Scurt=
escu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "=
intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended u=
sage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secu=
rity event?)
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a=
 mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforc=
ing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach=
 to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWT=
s from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=
=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mand=
ated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one k=
ey is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D cl=
aims.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/h=
eader parameter.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Har=
dt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp=
>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@=
oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion a=
nd distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should=
 be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@goog=
le.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules=
 for
>>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds o=
f
>>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.=
".
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity=
 and
>>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om
>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.c=
om
>>>>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very simil=
ar to
>>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake=
.jp
>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>=
>:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtesc=
u
>>>>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>>>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tok=
ens in
>>>>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not=

>>>>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security=

>>>>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > There is also another important requirement=
: the
>>>>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different fro=
m the
>>>>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sendin=
g SETs
>>>>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose t=
he
>>>>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the=
 event
>>>>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level=
 can
>>>>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be dif=
ferent
>>>>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SE=
T
>>>>>>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please=
 note
>>>>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different profile=
s that
>>>>>>>>>                     define event types to define additional claims=

>>>>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) an=
d
>>>>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the event le=
vel
>>>>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to=

>>>>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not so=
lving
>>>>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Al=
so,
>>>>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having different sy=
ntax
>>>>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to confusi=
on.
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a=
 new
>>>>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is n=
ot
>>>>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is no=
t
>>>>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I=
 think
>>>>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should serious=
ly
>>>>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                      > ___________________________________________=
____
>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org=
>
>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVq=
XoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                     ______________________________________________=
_
>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event=

>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>>>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail li=
st to
>>>>>>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to le=
arn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHs=
hmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

--Apple-Mail-26D6E8F3-8E40-4EDD-BF22-8B061F88C3F6
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Separate or combined may be evolving. M=
ike wants to keep the current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He su=
ggested risc define its own duplicate definitions and meanings.&nbsp;</div><=
div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">That l=
eads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.</div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Session cancel=
lation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators we had tried t=
o make was an assumption that user initiated events would be part of connect=
. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like passw=
ord reset.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature">There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. T=
hese are not commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled.=
 IOW single sign out not expected.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"=
><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D=
"text/html charset=3Dutf-8">I thought we decided that we are only allowing s=
et messages form the same family that agree on top level claims.<div class=3D=
""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Otherwise there can be no top level c=
laims and we are really defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.</=
div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.</div><div c=
lass=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div clas=
s=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</=
div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"Wo=
rdSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1=
2px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; let=
ter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: no=
ne; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; b=
ackground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt=
; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agr=
ee with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub problem can=
 and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably not the ri=
ght setting to discuss the former.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Ro=
man', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibr=
i, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Rom=
an', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles=
 may dictate conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone=
 number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles do=
n=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, the=
n they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap se=
ems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-si=
ze: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; f=
ont-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle=
 Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in=
 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" clas=
s=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" cl=
ass=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0=
in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: soli=
d none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); pa=
dding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font=
-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve=
7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=
=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday,=
 June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaro=
nf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin=
 Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a=
>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D=
"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Annabelle Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,=
 Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D""=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkhol=
z &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"">henk.bir=
kholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for I=
d/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span=
></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-si=
ze: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""=
>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 1=
2pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the envelope typ i=
s a media/mime type. &nbsp;Registering application/idt+jwt if we register jw=
t as a structured name sufix. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D=
""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><=
div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Using the cty is also possibl=
e. &nbsp; I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a convent=
ion.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New R=
oman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=
=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: '=
Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Not everything is going to be a set tok=
en like not every JWS is a JWT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D=
""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><=
div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If we are going to define pro=
cessing rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for different purp=
oses, we should just start using the typ parameter based on the existing spe=
c.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cla=
ss=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D=
"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', s=
erif;" class=3D"">In general content sniffing if there is more than one opti=
on eventually gets you into trouble.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div c=
lass=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fami=
ly: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>=
</div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12p=
t; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I am not convinced tha=
t forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. &nbsp;<o:p cla=
ss=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.00=
01pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o=
:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0=
in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cl=
ass=3D"">It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens=
.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0=
.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""=
><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margi=
n: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;=
" class=3D"">If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET J=
WT for things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.<o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001=
pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cla=
ss=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub=
 is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not b=
e required for all event types.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D=
""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><=
div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think we should solve the c=
onfusion issue separately from the sub issue.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></d=
iv><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; f=
ont-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:=
p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-s=
ize: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Sorry I am at C=
IS so trying to catch up on lists.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div cla=
ss=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family=
: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></=
div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;=
 font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p class=3D""><=
/o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; fon=
t-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; m=
argin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"m=
argin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', se=
rif;" class=3D"">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underl=
ine;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p><=
/div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fam=
ily: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div=
><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; fon=
t-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">So to summa=
rize what I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D=
"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', s=
erif;" class=3D"">Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specif=
ic rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a l=
ong-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e=
.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in=
 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
"">Did I miss anything?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in=
 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" clas=
s=3D"">By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in t=
he SET document before it is published.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n', serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"marg=
in: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif=
;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=
=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman=
', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New=
 Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom=
: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; fon=
t-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">+1 to this a=
s well.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:=
 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&n=
bsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt=
; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=
=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman=
', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"ci=
te"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;=
 font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09=
 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"=
color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0=
in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div st=
yle=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Ro=
man', serif;" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle said.<span class=3D"Apple-conv=
erted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New R=
oman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=
=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: '=
Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other re=
quirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top lev=
el is broken in this case.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=
=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: '=
Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0=
in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
"">Marius<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0=
in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0=
in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cl=
ass=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-dec=
oration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; b=
order-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0=
in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"=
><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; fon=
t-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div></div><div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fa=
mily: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></di=
v></div><div id=3D"m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New R=
oman', serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D=
""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0=
in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br cl=
ass=3D""></p>On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple;=
 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p><p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; marg=
in-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><d=
iv style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times N=
ew Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mike,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fa=
mily: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; fon=
t-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11=
pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Your explanation for why t=
his is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Co=
nnect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see several=
 issues with it:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><p class=3D"m909408923966=
8570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-=
size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">1.</span><span style=3D=
"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The caller of the Token End=
point is the only party that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is re=
ally an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has n=
o way to verify its provenance.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"=
m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-lef=
t: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2.</span>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Any future ID=
 Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.</span><o:p cla=
ss=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D=
"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times N=
ew Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">No othe=
r profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></p><p class=3D"m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"marg=
in-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Ro=
man', serif;"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">4=
.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is only=
 a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares about disambig=
uation has to invent its own solution to the problem.</span><o:p class=3D"">=
</o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:=
 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We know from=
 experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both things that h=
appen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive measure against t=
hese risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes i=
t easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=
=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas wit=
h the status quo each profile would require unique logic.</span><o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span=
><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in=
 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" clas=
s=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A=
nnabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cla=
ss=3D"">Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><=
div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times N=
ew Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></d=
iv><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; f=
ont-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top=
-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" cl=
ass=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-famil=
y: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple=
; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt=
;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"=
">To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"col=
or: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a=
>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@=
amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: under=
line;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple;=
 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Bir=
kholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blan=
k" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id=
/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p>=
</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0=
.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""=
><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.&n=
bsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be sim=
ple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><=
span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" clas=
s=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cl=
ass=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 9=
6);" class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to pro=
blems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=
=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to b=
e confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrK=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_=
3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</a>.=
&nbsp; If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds=
 of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, s=
o that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our=
 part.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margi=
n: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;=
" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 3=
2, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; colo=
r: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, suc=
h as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requ=
iring a type claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily comple=
x.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a cons=
equence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather th=
an a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, th=
e more likely developers are to just create their own data structures.&nbsp;=
 Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful i=
f they are actually used.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"">=
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times=
 New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p><=
/div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fam=
ily: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fa=
mily: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</=
span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-=
style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 22=
5, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><=
b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:i=
d-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 P=
M<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.b=
irkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-de=
coration: underline;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br c=
lass=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">=
id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Acce=
ss Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div=
></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-si=
ze: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 1=
2pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=
=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</s=
pan><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0=
in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key U=
sage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose o=
f the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to acc=
ept a JWT being presented to it in some context.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p=
></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12=
pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; f=
ont-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle=
 Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div styl=
e=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fa=
mily: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-widt=
h: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D=
""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" c=
lass=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-=
event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text=
-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D=
""><b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b=
>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: pur=
ple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de=
</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;=
" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solutio=
n for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D"=
"></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cla=
ss=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div c=
lass=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:=
 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 13, 20=
17 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline=
;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D"">=
</o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-=
left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in=
 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"mar=
gin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', seri=
f;" class=3D"">And a 2nd question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What semanti=
cs would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend", "audience",=
 and "scope"?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div c=
lass=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fami=
ly: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>=
</div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-siz=
e: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">"aud" (audience)=
 specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (access token to au=
thorize resource access or SET to communicate a security event?)<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0=
in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New R=
oman', serif;" class=3D"">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p class=3D""></o:p><=
/div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&=
nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"m=
argin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', se=
rif;" class=3D"">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', ser=
if;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D"=
"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; f=
ont-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:=
p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid;=
 border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in=
 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div styl=
e=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br c=
lass=3D"">On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; b=
order-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0=
in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D=
"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', s=
erif;" class=3D"">Thanks for putting this together!<br class=3D""><br class=3D=
"">I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D""><br cla=
ss=3D"">=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a m=
utually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcin=
g this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach t=
o ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs f=
rom a current spec.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is unrealistic to e=
xpect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different ki=
nds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers=
 will ignore this because managing one key is easier than managing N differe=
nt keys.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D a=
nd =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =E2=80=
=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header parameter.<br class=
=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b=
r class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br clas=
s=3D"">Identity Services<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">*From: *Id-event &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color=
: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 a=
t 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam=
 Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"c=
olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a>&=
gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" st=
yle=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp<=
/a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.h=
unt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject: *=
Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issue=
r<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. Note that there is still lots of disc=
ussion on what should be in 3.9.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12=
, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.=
com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" c=
lass=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underl=
ine;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br c=
lass=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cro=
ss-JWT Confusion" and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9.=
 Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Dif=
ferent Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<br class=3D"">&nb=
sp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of<b=
r class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different k=
inds of JWTs.".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think tha=
t a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; safety.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<b=
r class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=
=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.=
com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underl=
ine;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br c=
lass=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BC=
P ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D=
a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">http://self-issu=
ed.info/?p=3D1690</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@go=
ogle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underli=
ne;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D=
"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a=
>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to<br c=
lass=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now thin=
k this is a better plan.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decora=
tion: underline;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""=
>nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "type"<br class=
=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"=
 class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underl=
ine;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br class=3D""><br class=3D=
"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;=
 On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decora=
tion: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p>=
</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt=
; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: pu=
rple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There were a couple of prop=
osals on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in=
<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; such a way that naive implementations will not<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confuse one f=
or the other and open up security<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;=
<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br clas=
s=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" issuer. T=
his is the case of an RP sending SETs<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an IdP.<br class=3D"">&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<=
br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br class=3D=
"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fol=
lowing:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event=
<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; level<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET leve=
l can<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event leve=
l can be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across events in the same SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; -=
 "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (this solves the d=
isambiguation), please note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&g=
t;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br c=
lass=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; define event types to define additional claims<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; related to sub (l=
ike email or phone_number) and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since all these claims will be at the=
 event level<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br class=3D"">=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br class=
=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d=
efine a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the requirement f=
or a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having the same claim name hav=
ing different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in different token types could lead to confusio=
n.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to int=
roduce a new<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br cla=
ss=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; practical in the short term, and it also is not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solving the distin=
ct issuer requirement, but I think<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this is something the JWT group s=
hould seriously<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consider.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Thoug=
hts?<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D=
"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp;&gt; _______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; I=
d-event mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times N=
ew Roman', serif;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple;=
 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span class=3D=
"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underlin=
e;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;=
d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5b=
iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua=
6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" clas=
s=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBK=
CX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D=
JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn=
88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; _____________________=
__________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D=
"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"co=
lor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_list=
info_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7J=
PKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oM=
U7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decorati=
on: underline;" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a=
><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<b=
r class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" c=
lass=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id=
-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&=
amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQ=
l7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: und=
erline;" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br cl=
ass=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |<a href=3D"mailto:=
adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration=
: underline;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">adawes@google.com</a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">+1 6=
50-214-2410</a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;=
<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214-2410" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purpl=
e; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br c=
lass=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; _________=
______________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; tex=
t-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"App=
le-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" c=
lass=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D=
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oration: underline;" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-eve=
nt</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpo=
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___________________<br class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a hre=
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""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">__________________________=
_____________________<br class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><=
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 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/id-event</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><d=
iv class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-=
family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
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=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div clas=
s=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001p=
t; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">_____=
__________________________________________<br class=3D"">Id-event mailing li=
st<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.or=
g</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0=
.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:19:36 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Marius, the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that cann=
ot
> handle sub at the event level?=E2=80=9D is no more useful than the questi=
on =E2=80=9CDo
> you have examples of use cases that cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 s=
pelled as the
> Latin word =E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D
>

I disagree. If sub at the event level is an issue then let's be concrete
about it.



>   Yes, applications could always work around the inconveniences introduce=
d
> by arbitrary claim renaming or repositioning,
>

This is not an arbitrary repositioning, the reasons a very clear.


but they shouldn=E2=80=99t have to.  It just adds complexity and will hinde=
r
> adoption.
>

Minor complexity added, if at all. The only downside is the slightly larger
size of SETs.


>
>
> It seems to me that your motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D in the event
> payload, rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think=
 RISC
> events will be structured, and that you want **all** events to also use
> the RISC event structuring.
>

This has absolutely nothing to do with RISC in particular. Both the
confusion problem and the RP issued SETs are generic SET problems that need
to be solved.

BTW, you never offered a solution to the RP issued SETs problem MIke. Can
you please do that?



>   To my way of thinking, if you really believe that you should be asking
> the SET spec to be withdrawn from the IETF and only define RISC events in
> the RISC working group.  But in fact, requiring all events to follow the
> RISC conventions makes no more sense than requiring all JWTs to be ID
> Tokens.  That would have made JWTs useless for many use cases.  Proposing
> to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise make them inapplicable for
> many non-RISC use cases.
>
>
>
> We have a potential success on our hands.  Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up =
by making
> it unnecessarily complicated.
>

Sure, let's solve all open issues first.


>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Richard Backman,
> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron
> Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.or=
g>;
> Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, M.Lizar@OCG <
> m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim
> usage would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.
>
>
>
> sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we are not adding any
> restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at
> the event level?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very difficult (if not impossible)
> to retract.
>
>
>
> I agree. I don't think anything is retracted.
>
>
>
> Again, see:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2
>
>
>
> Last sentence of 4.1.2 states "Use of this claim is OPTIONAL."
>
>
>
>
>
> In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not
> work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and m=
ay
> not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP=
.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group o=
r other
> profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,
> without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use,
> and you=E2=80=99re golden.
>
>
>
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the
> requirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that
> can use claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be
> complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec,
> which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.
>
>
>
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a =
sign of
> success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk
> Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I=
 have a
> lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply,
> because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and
> believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoptio=
n
> to act upon them.  Specifically:
>
>
>
>    - I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim.
>    Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many othe=
rs
>    agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout
>    token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_
>    0-04.html#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2>)
>    to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting=
 this usage would be
>    a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s imp=
ossible to confuse a
>    logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this threa=
d.
>
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning
> is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that
> problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of
> the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>
>
>
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is =
a
> real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>
>
>
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind.
> I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems
> necessary in this case.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1>=
.
>    No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
>
>
>
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described
> above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to =
be used for some
>    profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should not b=
e
>    mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D
>    functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning.
>
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about
> that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can y=
ou
> please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of
>    JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  This reflects a =
misunderstanding.
>    It=E2=80=99s the **value** of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=
=80=93 not that
>    any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.  Any and all JWTs can si=
multaneously use
>    =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a
>    cryptographically secure random number.
>
>
>
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not
> passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim cou=
ld
> have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to t=
he
> confusion problem.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d =
be glad
> to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or=
 any other claim)
> or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as muc=
h
> sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin wor=
d
> for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name in=
stead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.
> Yes, it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelli=
ng
> the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the u=
se
> of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>
>
>
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard
> location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is th=
e
> actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id
> Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in
> which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.
> de>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
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=3D
>
>                     _______________________________________________
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>
>                 _______________________________________________
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>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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>
>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>
>             _______________________________________________
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--001a113ee31e1bb45f05527eeebb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_2888317362668206745WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, the question =
=E2=80=9C</span>Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at=
 the event level?<span style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=9D is no more useful =
than the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that
 cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 spelled as the Latin word </span><span=
 style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D</span></p></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I disagree. If sub at the event =
level is an issue then let&#39;s be concrete about it.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D=
"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_2888317362668206745WordSection1"><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0 Yes, applications=
 could always work around the inconveniences introduced by arbitrary claim =
renaming or repositioning,</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>This is not an arbitrary repositioning, the reasons a very clear.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_28883173626682067=
45WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"> but t=
hey shouldn=E2=80=99t have to.=C2=A0 It just adds
 complexity and will hinder adoption.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>Minor complexity added, if at all. The only downside is t=
he slightly larger size of SETs.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D=
"m_2888317362668206745WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that yo=
ur motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the event payload,=
 rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think RISC even=
ts will be structured, and that you want *<b>all</b>* events
 to also use the RISC event structuring.</span></p></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>This has absolutely nothing to do with RISC in particu=
lar. Both the confusion problem and the RP issued SETs are generic SET prob=
lems that need to be solved.</div><div><br></div><div>BTW, you never offere=
d a solution to the RP issued SETs problem MIke. Can you please do that?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_2888317362668206=
745WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=
=A0 To my way of thinking, if you really believe that you should be asking =
the SET spec to be withdrawn from the IETF and only define RISC events in t=
he RISC working group.=C2=A0 But in fact, requiring all events to follow th=
e
 RISC conventions makes no more sense than requiring all JWTs to be ID Toke=
ns.=C2=A0 That would have made JWTs useless for many use cases.=C2=A0 Propo=
sing to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise make them inapplicable fo=
r many non-RISC use cases.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We have a potential su=
ccess on our hands.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up by making it unnece=
ssarily complicated.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>Sure, let&#39;s solve all open issues first.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">=
<div class=3D"m_2888317362668206745WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_2888317362668206745__MailEndCompose" cl=
ass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a=
></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D""><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> M.Lizar@OCG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Richa=
rd Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;; Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@=
mit.edu</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; ID Event=
s Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:=
M.Lizar@OCG" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
M.Lizar@OCG</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">FWIW - I agree with Mike that pu=
tting restrictions on the &quot;sub&quot; claim usage would unnecessarily c=
omplicate SETs for some use cases.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we=
 are not adding any restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that ca=
nnot handle sub at the event level?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">It=
s a lot easier to add to a spec and very=C2=A0difficult=C2=A0(if not imposs=
ible) to retract.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree. I don&#39;t think anything is retracted.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Again, see:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#secti=
on-4.1.2" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<w=
br>rfc7519#section-4.1.2</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Last sentence of 4.1.2 states &quot;Use of this clai=
m is OPTIONAL.&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">In=
 this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.=C2=A0</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">Ma=
rk</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a wa=
y that they will not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not work=
ing for RISC, and may not work for logout either if you allow logout to be =
initiated from an RP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, there=E2=80=99=
s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) from d=
efining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without
 any changes to the SET spec.=C2=A0 Specify the claims you want to use, and=
 you=E2=80=99re golden.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But it would be counte=
rproductive to require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your spec=
ific profile.=C2=A0 There are simpler use cases that can
 use claims in simpler ways.=C2=A0 Trying to make the simple use cases be c=
omplex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec, whic=
h wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If successful, SETs wi=
ll have many different profiles.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=
=80=93 not a sign of weakness.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_2888317362668206745_m_21307839889452465=
35_m_4639718898647749" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:</span><=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span>mscurtescu@google.com</span><span></span></a><span>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
span><span></span></a><span>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span><spa=
n></span></a><span>&gt;;
 Justin Richer &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed"><span>jricher@mit.edu</span><span></span></a><span>&gt=
;;
 Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span>richanna@amazon.com</span><span=
></span></a><span>&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span>henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wb=
r>de</span><span></span></a><span>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span>id-event@ietf.org</span><span></span>=
</a><span>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span>phil.hunt@oracle.com</span><span></span></a><sp=
an>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &l=
t;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed"><span>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span><span></span></a><s=
pan>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorr=
y to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.=C2=A0 I have a lot o=
f other
 things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because I whole=
heartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it would b=
e severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upon them.=
=C2=A0 Specifically:</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D claim.=C2=A0 Claims usage needs to be up to the application.=C2=A0 I=
 know that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working
 group designed the logout token in </span><a href=3D"http://openid.net/spe=
cs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#LogoutToken" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed"><span>http://openid.net/specs/<wbr>openid-connect-backchanne=
l-1_<wbr>0-04.html#LogoutToken</span><span></span></a><span>
 (which is also used as an example in </span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed"><span>https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-0=
1#<wbr>section-2</span><span></span></a><span>)
 to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.=C2=A0 Prohibitin=
g this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as=
 it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, for re=
asons already cites in this thread.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Solving the confusion is one problem. The othe=
r problem I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent
 to an IdP. How are we solving that problem Mike? In this case the top leve=
l iss is different from the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not possible=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>And I don&#39;t want to downplay the confusion=
 problem either. I think it is a real concern and I think a solid solution
 is important.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>The OpenID Working Group designed logout token=
s without secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break
 compatibility, but to me it seems necessary in this case.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#=
section-2.1" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span>https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-2.1</span><span></spa=
n></a><span>.=C2=A0
 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<u></u><u></u></span></=
li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for th=
e RP to IdP case described above.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to b=
e used for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.=C2=A0 Its =
use should not be mandated in the SET spec.=C2=A0 I would oppose duplicatin=
g the
 =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a dupli=
cative meaning.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>If typ can be use and no other claim is needed=
, then let&#39;s talk about that. I do think SET should mandate it.
 I don&#39;t understand why not. Can you please propose with examples how c=
an typ be used?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=
=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 This reflects a misunderstanding.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s the *<=
b>value</b>* of the nonce that self-secures
 the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.=
=C2=A0 Any and all JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D with=
out any risk of conflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secu=
re random number.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is u=
seful. That value is not passed back and it cannot be verified.
 Only the presence of the claim could have some use, hinting at the usage o=
f the JWT, a very weak solution to the confusion problem.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
<span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you=
 be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be glad to ha=
ve
 in-person discussions about these topics there.</span><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.=C2=A0 Food =
for thought:=C2=A0 Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any oth=
er claim) or forcing
 it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as much sense as a=
rbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word for subjec=
t =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name instead of =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Yes, it will completely differentiate this
 profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it would cer=
tainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and to interop=
erability.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>If we define that sub must be at the event lev=
el then it is at a standard location, I don&#39;t see what the issue
 is. The impediment you mention is the actual solution. I don&#39;t think t=
hat a JWT library that was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse SE=
Ts. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+sub =
is not an issue at all.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmai=
l.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>So to summarize what I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules f=
or &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;ty=
pe&quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use =
it in the SET document before it is published.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m=
scurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, fo=
r RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken=
 in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_2888317362668206745gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_46397188986477=
49668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_2888317362668206745gmail-m_2130783988945246535m_46397188986477=
49668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is de=
pendent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not desig=
ned to solve this issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2888317362668206745gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that=
 a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller pas=
ses the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"m_2888317362668206745gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2888317362668206745gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2888317362668206745gmail-m2130783988945246535m463971889864774=
9668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph">
4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares a=
bout disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and r=
eplay attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is=
 a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use commo=
n libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library co=
uld handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo =
each profile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a=
>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard o=
f =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize =
the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions ar=
e being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidenc=
e that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.h=
tml</a>.=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with speci=
fic kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide sp=
ecifics, so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9C=
solutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in=
 the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple th=
ings unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-bounces@=
ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkho=
lz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain w=
hat you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better analogy wou=
ld be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares =
the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to i=
t in some context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>d=
e</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target clie=
nt, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access o=
r SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&qu=
ot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matak=
e.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gma=
il.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adaw=
es@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">nov@matake.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
mscurtescu@google.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
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<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pr=
e>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
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blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event=
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</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
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</div>
</div>
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</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:35:30 -0700
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To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>,  Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:

> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jw=
t
> if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.
>
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better bu=
t
> we can agree on a convention.
>
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and
> confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using t=
he
> typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually
> gets you into trouble.
>
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a
> good idea.
>
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for
> things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is
> scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not b=
e
> required for all event types.
>

Allowing sub at the event level as optional sounds good to me. If sub is
present at the event level then it probably should not be at the top level.

But, this optional approach makes the spec more complicated if anything.
Same for SET libraries.

While not necessarily a problem, iss+sub at the event level has another
nice property. It allows transmitters to use different signing keys (and
iss) for SETs, in some deployments this could be critical.


> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue=
.
>

Sure, they don't have to have the same solution.



>
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>
> John B.
>
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
>> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve th=
is
>> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>
>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
>> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
>> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenanc=
e.
>>
>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
>> problem again.
>>
>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>>
>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
>> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
>> problem.
>>
>>
>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are
>> both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defe=
nsive
>> measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general
>> solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsin=
g.
>> A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation =
for any JWT
>> profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique
>> logic.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
>> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
>> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 maki=
ng things that can and
>> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need =
to do so.
>>
>>
>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
>> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s al=
ready been
>> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an=
 ID Token =E2=80=93
>> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn=
90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
>> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
>> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, s=
o
>> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on o=
ur
>> part.
>>
>>
>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of=
 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
>> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thin=
gs
>> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
>> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would h=
ave
>> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we mak=
e
>> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
>> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards a=
re
>> only useful if they are actually used.
>>
>>
>>                                                 -- Mike
>>
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>
>>
>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
>> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purp=
ose
>> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether t=
o
>> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
>> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>
>> And a 2nd question.
>>
>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
>> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>
>>
>>
>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
>> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a secur=
ity
>> event?)
>>
>>
>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>
>>
>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>
>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>
>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutu=
ally exclusive
>> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this require=
s a
>> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that =
JWTs from some
>> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>
>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=
=9Cdifferent
>> keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the =
spec or
>> not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier th=
an
>> managing N different keys.
>>
>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>>
>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Identity Services
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
>> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
>> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
>> distinct SET issuer
>>
>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
>> 3.9.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>
>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>>
>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>>     safety.
>>
>>
>>     Marius
>>
>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.inf=
o_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>
>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>
>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>
>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>
>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>>
>>                     +1
>>
>>                     Phil
>>
>>
>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>
>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>                      >
>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>                      >
>>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>>                     to an IdP.
>>                      >
>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>                     following:
>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>>                     level
>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>>                     be different
>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>>                     across events in the same SET
>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>                      >
>>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>>                     define event types to define additional claims
>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>                      >
>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>>                      >
>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>                     consider.
>>                      >
>>                      > Thoughts?
>>                      >
>>                      > Marius
>>
>>                      > _______________________________________________
>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>
>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                      >
>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.
>> com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev
>> ent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&
>> r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp
>> 74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88
>> YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
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>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
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mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D>
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D>
>>
>>             --
>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>> <%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
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>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
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lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
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Ws&e=3D>
>>
>>         --
>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
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lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
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Ws&e=3D>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
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lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
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mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
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>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
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>
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>

--001a1140f978f0405f05527f26e6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"w=
ord-wrap:break-word">In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.=C2=A0 Regist=
ering application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =
=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Using the cty is also possible. =C2=A0 I need to =
think about what is better but we can agree on a convention.</div><div><div=
><br></div><div>Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JW=
S is a JWT.</div><div><br></div><div>If we are going to define processing r=
ules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for different purposes, we=
 should just start using the typ parameter based on the existing spec.</div=
><div><br></div><div>In general content sniffing if there is more than one =
option eventually gets you into trouble.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not =
convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>It is not the way we should differentiate b=
etween SET and id_tokens.<br><div><br></div><div>If sub is not allowed at t=
he top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject is sco=
ped to the iss of the token.</div><div><br></div><div>I think defining sub =
to be part of the event for cases where the sub is scoped differently from =
the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be required for all event t=
ypes.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Allowing sub =
at the event level as optional sounds good to me. If sub is present at the =
event level then it probably should not be at the top level.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>But, this optional approach makes the spec more complicated if a=
nything. Same for SET libraries.</div><div><br></div><div>While not necessa=
rily a problem, iss+sub at the event level has another nice property. It al=
lows transmitters to use different signing keys (and iss) for SETs, in some=
 deployments this could be critical.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div>=
<div>I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub is=
sue.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure, they don=
&#39;t have to have the same solution.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>John B.</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br><div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266=
561Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>So to summarize what I&#39;m=
 seeing on this thread:</p><p>Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term=
 solution, specific
      rules for &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in =
the SET spec.</p><p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot=
; claim (&quot;type&quot; is
      taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<br>
    </p><p>Did I miss anything?</p><p>By the way, if we do add a &quot;usag=
e&quot; claim, we need to also use it
      in the SET document before it is published.<br>
    </p><p>Thanks,</p><p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_3393399402947266561moz-cite-prefix">On 15/06/17 22:08, =
Justin Richer wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      +1 to this as well.
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div>
      <div><br>
        <div>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div>On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu
              &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div>
             =20
              <div dir=3D"ltr">+1 to what Annabelle said.
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Also, Mike you are missing the other
                  requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The
                  iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.</di=
v>
              </div>
              <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
                <div>
                  <div class=3D"m_3393399402947266561gmail_signature" data-=
smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33
                  PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir=3D"auto">
                      <div>+1</div>
                      <div id=3D"m_3393399402947266561m_9094089239668570312=
AppleMailSignature"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div id=3D"m_3393399402947266561m_9094089239668570312=
AppleMailSignature">Phil</div>
                      <div>
                        <div class=3D"m_3393399402947266561h5">
                          <div><br>
                            On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard
                            Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richan=
na@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&g=
t;
                            wrote:<br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                            <div>
                              <div class=3D"m_3393399402947266561m_90940892=
39668570312WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Mike,</span></p><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561web=
kit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Your explanation for why
                                    this is a non-problem is dependent
                                    upon side effects of elements of
                                    OpenID Connect that were not
                                    designed to solve this issue. As a
                                    result, I see several issues with
                                    it:</span></p><p class=3D"m_33933994029=
47266561m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:Calibri"><span>1.<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">The caller of the Token
                                    Endpoint is the only party that can
                                    be certain that a nonce-less ID
                                    Token is really an ID Token. Any
                                    party that the caller passes the ID
                                    Token off to has no way to verify
                                    its provenance.</span></p><p class=3D"m=
_3393399402947266561m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"><span>2.<span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Any future ID Token
                                    distribution method needs to solve
                                    this problem again.</span></p><p class=
=3D"m_3393399402947266561m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">No other profile of JWT can
                                    ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim=
.</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"></span></p><p class=3D"m_339339=
9402947266561m_9094089239668570312MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Calibri"><span>4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                      </span></span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">This is only a solution for
                                    ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
                                    that cares about disambiguation has
                                    to invent its own solution to the
                                    problem.</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Calibri"></span></p><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placehold=
er"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri">We know from experience
                                    that naming collisions and replay
                                    attacks are both things that happen.
                                    What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simp=
le,
                                    defensive measure against these
                                    risks. You brought up JWT libraries:
                                    a general solution actually makes it
                                    easier to use common libraries for
                                    JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=
=80=9D JWT
                                    library could handle disambiguation
                                    for any JWT profile, whereas with
                                    the status quo each profile would
                                    require unique logic.</span></p><div><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=
=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ident=
ity Services</p>
                                </div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-=
block-placeholder"></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:C=
alibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placeho=
lder"></div>
                                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid =
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"=
>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                      June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
                                      <b>To: </b>Marius
                                      Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscur=
tescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard
                                      Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                      ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;,
                                      Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:h=
enk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.bir=
kholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339940294=
7266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremat=
ure
                                    optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99=
d characterize the
                                    proposals in this thread as
                                    =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=93 making
                                    things that can and should be simple
                                    complex, without data showing
                                    there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</spa=
n></p><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><=
br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">Mandatory =
solutions are
                                    being proposed in this thread to
                                    problems that there=E2=80=99s no eviden=
ce
                                    that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=
=80=99s
                                    already been established that it=E2=80=
=99s
                                    impossible for a SET to be confused
                                    for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">
                                      https://www.ietf.org/mail-arch<wbr>iv=
e/web/id-event/current/msg00<wbr>428.html</a>.=C2=A0 If
                                    people have data showing that this
                                    is possible with specific kinds of
                                    Access Tokens or other real JWT
                                    deployments, please provide
                                    specifics, so that we can use that
                                    data to inform appropriate
                                    engineering choices on our part.</span>=
</p><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><br=
 class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">The proposed =
=E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D,
                                    such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
                                    in the normal way, or requiring a
                                    type claim, would make previously
                                    simple things unnecessarily
                                    complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is
                                    then different than a normal JWT but
                                    a consequence of this is that custom
                                    parsing code would have to be used,
                                    rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=
=A0
                                    The more unwieldy we make it to use
                                    SETs, the more likely developers are
                                    to just create their own data
                                    structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is
                                    the key to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards ar=
e
                                    only useful if they are actually
                                    used.</span></p><div><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_339339940294726=
6561webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span></p><div><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399=
402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div>
                                  <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:soli=
d #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">From:</span></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri"> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-b=
ounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
                                        <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard
                                        Backman, Annabelle<br>
                                        <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday,
                                        June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
                                        <b>To:</b> Marius
                                        Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a>&gt;;
                                        Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.b=
irkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
                                        <b>Cc:</b> ID Events
                                        Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;<br>
                                        <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                        [Id-event] solution for
                                        Id/Access Token confusion and
                                        distinct SET issuer</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_33933994029=
47266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question=
:
                                    can you explain what you mean by
                                    =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span></p><di=
v><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span><br cla=
ss=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">To your first q=
uestion, I
                                    think a better analogy would be the
                                    X.509 Key Usage extension: a
                                    multi-valued property that declares
                                    the intended purpose of the JWT, and
                                    that a recipient may refer to when
                                    determining whether to accept a JWT
                                    being presented to it in some
                                    context.</span></p><div><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_339339940=
2947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard
                                    Backman</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ident=
ity Services</p>
                                </div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-=
block-placeholder"></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:C=
alibri">=C2=A0</span><br class=3D"m_3393399402947266561webkit-block-placeho=
lder"></div>
                                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid =
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri">From: </span>
                                    </b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"=
>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                      on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ms=
curtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Date: </b>Tuesday,
                                      June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
                                      <b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz
                                      &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@s=
it.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.frau=
nhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Cc: </b>ID Events
                                      Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<br>
                                      <b>Subject: </b>Re:
                                      [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                      Token confusion and distinct SET
                                      issuer</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339940294=
7266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun
                                        13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk
                                        Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk=
.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkho=
lz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"border:none;bord=
er-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;mar=
gin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
And a 2nd
                                          question.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          What semantics would &quot;usage&=
quot;
                                          provide that that are not
                                          covered via &quot;intend&quot;,
                                          &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;s=
cope&quot;?</p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339=
9402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud=
&quot;
                                          (audience) specifies the
                                          target client, but not the
                                          intended usage (access token
                                          to authorize resource access
                                          or SET to communicate a
                                          security event?)</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339=
9402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;sco=
pe&quot; is
                                          not used by SET.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339=
9402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39=
;t
                                          know what do you mean by
                                          &quot;intend&quot; (or intent)?</=
p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339=
9402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_339339=
9402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"border:none;bord=
er-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;mar=
gin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Henk<br>
                                          <br>
                                          On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM,
                                          Richard Backman, Annabelle
                                          wrote:</p>
                                        <blockquote style=3D"border:none;bo=
rder-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;m=
argin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">Thanks
                                            for putting this together!<br>
                                            <br>
                                            I think the assumptions
                                            inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarante=
e that
                                            every type of JWT will have
                                            a mutually exclusive set of
                                            valid claims and/or header
                                            parameters, and enforcing
                                            this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail o=
n an
                                            unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D app=
roach
                                            to ensure that JWTs from
                                            some future spec can=E2=80=99t =
be
                                            mistaken for JWTs from a
                                            current spec.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expe=
ct
                                            implementers to adhere to
                                            the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for
                                            different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=
=9D
                                            rule. Whether mandated by
                                            the spec or not,
                                            implementers will ignore
                                            this because managing one
                                            key is easier than managing
                                            N different keys.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
                                            claims.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D=
 or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D
                                            claim/header parameter.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            -- <br>
                                            <br>
                                            Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
                                            <br>
                                            Identity Services<br>
                                            <br>
                                            *From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-ev=
ent-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                            on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                            *Date: *Monday, June 12,
                                            2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
                                            *To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                            *Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google=
.com</a>&gt;,
                                            &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matake=
.jp</a>&gt;,
                                            ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-even=
t@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                            &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                            *Subject: *Re: [Id-event]
                                            solution for Id/Access Token
                                            confusion and distinct SET
                                            issuer<br>
                                            <br>
                                            Agreed. Note that there is
                                            still lots of discussion on
                                            what should be in 3.9.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15
                                            PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscur=
tescu@google.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ms=
curtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the po=
inter
                                            Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is desc=
ribed
                                            by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT
                                            Confusion&quot; and the<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in =
&quot;3.9.
                                            Use Mutually Exclusive
                                            Validation Rules for<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds o=
f
                                            JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;=
Use
                                            different sets of<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims..=
.&quot;,
                                            &quot;Use different keys for
                                            different kinds of<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &=
quot;Use
                                            different issuers for
                                            different kinds of JWTs.&quot;.=
<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think tha=
t a
                                            &quot;type&quot; claim would br=
ing a
                                            lot of clarity and<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 20=
17 at
                                            9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com</a><br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yar=
on, Mike and I
                                            just published an BCP ID for
                                            JWT<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued=
.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkK=
Y057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7=
GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBl=
BpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://self-is=
sued.info/?p=3D169<wbr>0</a><br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On =
Thu, Jun 8, 2017
                                            at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@g=
oogle.com</a><br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially
                                            a fan of keeping SETS to be
                                            very similar to<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I
                                            now think this is a better
                                            plan.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8,
                                            2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov
                                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matak=
e.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a><br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt;
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1
                                            especially for &quot;type&quot;=
<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09
                                            10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt
                                            (IDM)<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>
                                            &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On
                                            Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM,
                                            Marius Scurtescu<br>
                                            =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@goog=
le.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; There were a
                                                couple of proposals on
                                                how to<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                distinguish SETs from Id
                                                Tokens and Access Tokens
                                                in<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such
                                                a way that naive
                                                implementations will not<br=
>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                confuse one for the
                                                other and open up
                                                security<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                vulnerabilities.<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; There is also
                                                another important
                                                requirement: the<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET
                                                issuer in some cases
                                                must be different from
                                                the<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                &quot;sub&quot; issuer. Thi=
s is
                                                the case of an RP
                                                sending SETs<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to
                                                an IdP.<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; With these
                                                requirements in mind I
                                                propose the<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                following:<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub=
&quot; and
                                                &quot;iss&quot; to be defin=
ed at
                                                the event<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                level<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot=
; at event
                                                level and at top SET
                                                level can<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be
                                                different<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot=
; and &quot;sub&quot;
                                                at event level can be
                                                different<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                across events in the
                                                same SET<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot=
; should NOT
                                                be present at the top
                                                SET<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                level (this solves the
                                                disambiguation), please
                                                note<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                &quot;should&quot; and not =
&quot;must&quot;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; This solution al=
so
                                                allows different
                                                profiles that<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                define event types to
                                                define additional claims<br=
>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                related to sub (like
                                                email or phone_number)
                                                and<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                since all these claims
                                                will be at the event
                                                level<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                there will be no
                                                collisions or ambiguity.<br=
>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; Another proposal
                                                (which I supported) was
                                                to<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                define a composite &quot;au=
d&quot;
                                                claim. This is not
                                                solving<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the
                                                requirement for a
                                                distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer.
                                                Also,<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                having the same claim
                                                name having different
                                                syntax<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in
                                                different token types
                                                could lead to confusion.<br=
>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; And yet another
                                                proposal was to
                                                introduce a new<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                claim for JWTs that
                                                defines a &quot;type&quot;.=
 This
                                                is not<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                practical in the short
                                                term, and it also is not<br=
>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                solving the distinct
                                                issuer requirement, but
                                                I think<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this
                                                is something the JWT
                                                group should seriously<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                consider.<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt; Marius<br>
                                                <br>
                                                =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                =C2=A0&gt;
                                                ___________________________=
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roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent=
&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j7=
46XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a></p>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <div>
                                          <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                              Id-event mailing list<br>
                                              <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
                                              <a href=3D"https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Deve=
nt&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j7=
46XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div><div>=C2=A0<br class=3D"m_3393399=
402947266561webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div class=3D"m_3393399402947266561h5"><span>__=
____________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br>
                              <span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>
                              <span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwI=
CAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3=
zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/u=
rl?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=
=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;<wbr=
>r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz<wbr>jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKH<=
wbr>shmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_<wbr>3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX<wbr>9ugL=
D4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a> </span><br>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
              </div>
              ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              Id-event mailing list<br>
              <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
              <a class=3D"m_3393399402947266561moz-txt-link-freetext cremed=
" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"m_3393399402947266561mimeAttachmentHeader"></field=
set>
      <br>
      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Id-event mailing list
<a class=3D"m_3393399402947266561moz-txt-link-abbreviated cremed" href=3D"m=
ailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"m_3393399402947266561moz-txt-link-freetext cremed" href=3D"http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing li=
st<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/id-event" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1140f978f0405f05527f26e6--


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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
CC: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>
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References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <4BD645F0-F594-48C2-8601-4721B2289436@oracle.com> <CAHHppZ_UzjYgP4rQ9b1z0EKOxD6w1sMaO37NKbX4enGUTEzHsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAOJhRMYdJT9xEAUygQS6Es20LYGThdyJq7Xamd5FMKRz-z78=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-s8y+r2aa4NZHqgpY-eGjUJdLX3SDfQydU8fcY5=+HwFQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLH0nfnAr2xaRVGzX=QiCRxzNLFp1xAbvRkZH0rS_OMxQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD9ie-uG-a4U_h4gz=fpXRpWpJ6smrVfu9L8fOmK-UqSPxegbw@mail.gmail.com> <1EE56A12-E2A2-400D-A561-8C6818C8BAA9@amazon.com> <45396fbc-63b4-fce3-15be-a3280572dbb4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com> <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com> <6A2C250A-D2E3-4868-950F-DFAFBDF3C394@ve7jtb.com> <B93EF6E6-4D6F-4A18-A6EE-9EF28FC21C1B@amazon.com> <1915CB57-66AE-4C8B-AD1E-24123E9BE3FA@ve7jtb.com> <80510456-2187-401D-8BF9-8E3118435B3C@oracle.com> <370B5025-BD04-4B05-9FFD-D8850230BBBF@amazon.com>
From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:58:55 -0700
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To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/lGdRtK5kzs7e7kzEsrMBXeH7-0A>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled
(because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
1. "account-disabled"
2. "sessions-revoked"

Marius

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
richanna@amazon.com> wrote:

> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multipl=
e
> logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from diff=
erent
> profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
> backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), the=
n
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one=
 SET.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
> *To: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current
> backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own
> duplicate definitions and meanings.
>
>
>
> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>
>
>
> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the
> differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiate=
d
> events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive o=
ff
> of risk calculations like password reset.
>
>
>
> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not
> commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW singl=
e
> sign out not expected.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same
> family that agree on top level claims.
>
>
>
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a
> alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub
> problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is
> probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>
>
>
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflictin=
g
> semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B say=
s it=E2=80=99s an
> email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way =
to declare
> subject of their events, then they cannot be present within the same toke=
n.
> This incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily misse=
d
> by groups profiling SET.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> *To: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil
> Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jw=
t
> if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.
>
>
>
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better bu=
t
> we can agree on a convention.
>
>
>
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>
>
>
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and
> confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using t=
he
> typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>
>
>
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually
> gets you into trouble.
>
>
>
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a
> good idea.
>
>
>
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>
>
>
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for
> things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>
>
>
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is
> scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not b=
e
> required for all event types.
>
>
>
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue=
.
>
>
>
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_
> jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
=3D
>
>                     _______________________________________________
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>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWW=
s&e=3D>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWW=
s&e=3D>
>
>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWW=
s&e=3D>
>
>         --
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
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>
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>

--94eb2c11bde2aefd7805527f7ada
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP accou=
nt is disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:<div>1. =
&quot;account-disabled&quot;</div><div>2. &quot;sessions-revoked&quot;</div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Bac=
kman, Annabelle <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com=
" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be u=
sed to express multiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to ex=
press events from different profiles that correspond to
 the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a =
hypothetical RISC logout event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case th=
at leaves for multiple events in one SET.<u></u><u></u></span></p><span cla=
ss=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0=
pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM=
)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"=
_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkh=
olz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank=
">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Mari=
us Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.=
ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jo=
nes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to =
keep the current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc=
 define its own duplicate definitions and meanings.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That leads me to believe we will have multi-type eve=
nts in practice.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One=
 of the differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user in=
itiated events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that d=
rive off of risk calculations like
 password reset.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are also signout events at rp&#39;s to let the=
 OP know. These are not commands but notification that a resource session i=
s cancelled. IOW single sign out not expected.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7j=
tb.com" target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought we decided that we are only allowing set m=
essages form the same family that agree on top level claims.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we ar=
e really defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@a=
mazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">I agree with John that t=
he JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and should be dis=
cussed separately. The secevents WG is probably
 not the right setting to discuss the former.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">My concern with the sub =
claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile =
A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s
 an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate wa=
y to declare subject of their events, then they cannot be present within th=
e same token. This incompatibility trap seems like something that could be =
easily missed by groups profiling SET.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Annabelle Richard Backman=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Identity Services<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-462984256938515=
9988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jt=
b@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_bla=
nk">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Annabelle =
Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
 Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jon=
es@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID=
 Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk
 Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"=
_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dis=
tinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">In the envelope typ is a =
media/mime type.=C2=A0 Registering application/idt+jwt if we register jwt a=
s a structured name sufix. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Using the cty is also pos=
sible. =C2=A0 I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a co=
nvention.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Not everything is going t=
o be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">If we are going to define=
 processing rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for different=
 purposes, we should just start using the typ parameter based on the existi=
ng spec.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">In general content sniffi=
ng if there is more than one option eventually gets you into trouble.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I am not convinced that f=
orcing there to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. =C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">It is not the way we shou=
ld differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">If sub is not allowed at =
the top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject is sc=
oped to the iss of the token.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I think defining sub to b=
e part of the event for cases where the sub is scoped differently from the =
issuer of the token is fine, but should not be required for all event types=
.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I think we should solve t=
he confusion issue separately from the sub issue.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Sorry I am at CIS so tryi=
ng to catch up on lists.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 =
PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wro=
te:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">So to summarize what I&#3=
9;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Everybody agrees with Mar=
ius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules for &quot;sub&quot; and &quot=
;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Almost everybody agrees o=
n a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;type&quot; is taken) that shou=
ld be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Did I miss anything?<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">By the way, if we do add =
a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use it in the SET document befor=
e it is published.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin=
 Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">+1 to this as well.<span =
class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 =
PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">+1 to what Annabelle said=
.<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Also, Mike you are missin=
g the other requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair=
 at the top level is broken in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5=
:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt=
; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:2=
5 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span><=
/a>&gt;
 wrote: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Mike,</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Your explanation for why=
 this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID=
 Connect that were not designed to solve this issue.
 As a result, I see several issues with it:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The
 caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that a =
nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes=
 the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Any
 future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif">No
 other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif">This
 is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares about=
 disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">We know from experience =
that naming collisions and replay attacks are both things that happen. What=
=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive measure
 against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution actu=
ally makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cus=
age-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT prof=
ile, whereas with the status quo each profile would
 require unique logic.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Annabelle Richard Backman=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Identity Services<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-462984256938515=
9988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richan=
na@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amaz=
on.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-even=
t@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.or=
g</span></a>&gt;,
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr=
>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dis=
tinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=
=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize the p=
roposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=
=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Mandatory solutions are bei=
ng proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence tha=
t we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DD=
wMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrK=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y=
_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wb=
r>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.html</span></a>.=C2=A0
 If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of A=
ccess Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so th=
at we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our pa=
rt.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolut=
ions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the =
normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things =
unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span=
 class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span=
><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=
">Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span c=
lass=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Beh=
alf Of<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a=
>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofe=
r.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dist=
inct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s=
 question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">To your first question, =
I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-va=
lued property that declares the intended purpose
 of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to =
accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Annabelle Richard Backman=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Identity Services<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-462984256938515=
9988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span=
></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dis=
tinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2=
:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof=
er.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">&quot;aud&quot; (audience=
) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (access token to =
authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">&quot;scope&quot; is not =
used by SET.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I don&#39;t know what do =
you mean by &quot;intend&quot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Thanks for putting this t=
ogether!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
--<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
<br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&=
gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>=
&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&g=
t;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;matak=
e, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing
 List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtes=
cu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com<=
/span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt=
; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D=
a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</span></a>=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">adawes@google.com</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a=
>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</sp=
an></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phi=
l.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.co=
m</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscur=
tescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
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t;<span class=3D"m_-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
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pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ie=
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=A0&gt;<br>
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<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
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<span style=3D"color:purple">+1 650-214-2410</span></a><br>
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</span></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
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:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
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lor:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
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lor:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">_________________________=
_____<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2=
Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&a=
mp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQ=
l7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGM=
SWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_li=
stinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx=
BKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wl=
NKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>00Y_3zRoai115c&a=
mp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</span=
></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">_________________________=
_____<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/i=
d-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<pre style=3D"background:white">______________________________<wbr>________=
_________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white">Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u=
><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">_________________________=
_____<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c11bde2aefd7805527f7ada--


From nobody Wed Jun 21 15:03:50 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 22:03:38 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/NlbzdY182jvo6Rr4pYXhwYKknYo>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 15:32:11 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Marius, you wrote =E2=80=9CBTW, you never offered a solution to the RP is=
sued
> SETs problem MIke. Can you please do that?=E2=80=9D  I thought we already=
 had a
> well-understood solution to that, but I=E2=80=99ll repeat it here.  I=E2=
=80=99ll give the
> example assuming that the event is about an OpenID Connect account that i=
s
> named by an (=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) pair.
>
>
>
> If the RP is issuing the SET, it already must identify itself using the
> top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claim, per the SET spec.  The OpenID Conn=
ect account that
> is the subject of the event would contain the (=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D, =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) values in the
> event payload.  In fact, I=E2=80=99m assuming that that would be the case=
 for all
> RISC events (and possibly for some other event profiles too).  I=E2=80=99=
m
> completely supportive of that choice if made by a profile.
>
>
>
> But there will also be use cases =E2=80=93 possibly non-identity use case=
s, in
> which the thing being operated on doesn=E2=80=99t have any issuer value o=
r in which
> the event issuer is always the same as the issuer for the thing being
> operated on.  Trying to impose the choices made by one SET profile onto a=
ll
> others, though, assumes we know way more about their use cases than we
> actually do.  We need to leave their conventions up to them =E2=80=93 jus=
t like JWT
> left claims conventions up to profiles.  That=E2=80=99s why it=E2=80=99s =
general-purpose
> and being widely used.
>

Alright, so the solution is to optionally allow iss+sub at the event level
(in which case there is no sub at the top level)? Is this something
secevent defines or profiles would have to each define separately?

And again, I don't see the RP issued SET as a particular profile problem.

Also, speaking of general purpose solutions. To me sub at event level is
general purpose, guaranteed to not cause conflicts. sub at the top level on
the other hand will cause conflicts and force most (or all) oauth based
profiles to re-define how sub is used.

The only problem with sub only at event level that I am aware of is the
compatibly breakage for the logout profile. I agree that we should not take
breakages lightly.


>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:20 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>; Richard Backman,
> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron
> Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.or=
g>;
> Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marius, the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that cann=
ot
> handle sub at the event level?=E2=80=9D is no more useful than the questi=
on =E2=80=9CDo
> you have examples of use cases that cannot handle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 s=
pelled as the
> Latin word =E2=80=98subiectum=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I disagree. If sub at the event level is an issue then let's be concrete
> about it.
>
>
>
>
>
>   Yes, applications could always work around the inconveniences introduce=
d
> by arbitrary claim renaming or repositioning,
>
>
>
> This is not an arbitrary repositioning, the reasons a very clear.
>
>
>
>
>
> but they shouldn=E2=80=99t have to.  It just adds complexity and will hin=
der
> adoption.
>
>
>
> Minor complexity added, if at all. The only downside is the slightly
> larger size of SETs.
>
>
>
>
>
> It seems to me that your motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D in the event
> payload, rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think=
 RISC
> events will be structured, and that you want **all** events to also use
> the RISC event structuring.
>
>
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with RISC in particular. Both the
> confusion problem and the RP issued SETs are generic SET problems that ne=
ed
> to be solved.
>
>
>
> BTW, you never offered a solution to the RP issued SETs problem MIke. Can
> you please do that?
>
>
>
>
>
>   To my way of thinking, if you really believe that you should be asking
> the SET spec to be withdrawn from the IETF and only define RISC events in
> the RISC working group.  But in fact, requiring all events to follow the
> RISC conventions makes no more sense than requiring all JWTs to be ID
> Tokens.  That would have made JWTs useless for many use cases.  Proposing
> to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise make them inapplicable for
> many non-RISC use cases.
>
>
>
> We have a potential success on our hands.  Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up =
by making
> it unnecessarily complicated.
>
>
>
> Sure, let's solve all open issues first.
>
>
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* M.Lizar@OCG <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Richard Backman,
> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron
> Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.or=
g>;
> Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM, M.Lizar@OCG <
> m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW - I agree with Mike that putting restrictions on the "sub" claim
> usage would unnecessarily complicate SETs for some use cases.
>
>
>
> sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we are not adding any
> restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at
> the event level?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Its a lot easier to add to a spec and very difficult (if not impossible)
> to retract.
>
>
>
> I agree. I don't think anything is retracted.
>
>
>
> Again, see:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2
>
>
>
> Last sentence of 4.1.2 states "Use of this claim is OPTIONAL."
>
>
>
>
>
> In this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a way that they will not
> work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not working for RISC, and m=
ay
> not work for logout either if you allow logout to be initiated from an RP=
.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marius, there=E2=80=99s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group o=
r other
> profiles) from defining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now,
> without any changes to the SET spec.  Specify the claims you want to use,
> and you=E2=80=99re golden.
>
>
>
> But it would be counterproductive to require all other SETs to meet the
> requirements of your specific profile.  There are simpler use cases that
> can use claims in simpler ways.  Trying to make the simple use cases be
> complex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec,
> which wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.
>
>
>
> If successful, SETs will have many different profiles.  That=E2=80=99s a =
sign of
> success =E2=80=93 not a sign of weakness.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Justin Richer <
> jricher@mit.edu>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Henk
> Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m sorry to be slow replying to some messages in this thread.  I=
 have a
> lot of other things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply,
> because I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and
> believe it would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoptio=
n
> to act upon them.  Specifically:
>
>
>
>    - I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim.
>    Claims usage needs to be up to the application.  I know that many othe=
rs
>    agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group designed the l=
ogout
>    token in http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_
>    0-04.html#LogoutToken (which is also used as an example in
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2>)
>    to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.  Prohibiting=
 this usage would be
>    a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=93 as it=E2=80=99s imp=
ossible to confuse a
>    logout token with an ID Token, for reasons already cites in this threa=
d.
>
> Solving the confusion is one problem. The other problem I keep mentioning
> is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are we solving that
> problem Mike? In this case the top level iss is different from the iss of
> the sub, a top level sub is not possible.
>
>
>
> And I don't want to downplay the confusion problem either. I think it is =
a
> real concern and I think a solid solution is important.
>
>
>
> The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens without secevent in mind.
> I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility, but to me it seems
> necessary in this case.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - (I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1>=
.
>    No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)
>
>
>
> Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP to IdP case described
> above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to =
be used for some
>    profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.  Its use should not b=
e
>    mandated in the SET spec.  I would oppose duplicating the =E2=80=9Ctyp=
=E2=80=9D
>    functionality by defining another claim with a duplicative meaning.
>
> If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then let's talk about
> that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don't understand why not. Can y=
ou
> please propose with examples how can typ be used?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>    - I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=
=80=9CNo other profile of
>    JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D  This reflects a =
misunderstanding.
>    It=E2=80=99s the **value** of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=
=80=93 not that
>    any =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.  Any and all JWTs can si=
multaneously use
>    =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of conflict, since the nonce =
value is a
>    cryptographically secure random number.
>
>
>
> For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful. That value is not
> passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence of the claim cou=
ld
> have some use, hinting at the usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to t=
he
> confusion problem.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> Will some of you be at the Cloud Identity Summit next week?  I=E2=80=99d =
be glad
> to have in-person discussions about these topics there.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  Food for thought:  Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or=
 any other claim)
> or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as muc=
h
> sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin wor=
d
> for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name in=
stead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.
> Yes, it will completely differentiate this profile from others not spelli=
ng
> the claim name this way, but it would certainly be an impediment to the u=
se
> of standard JWT libraries and to interoperability.
>
>
>
> If we define that sub must be at the event level then it is at a standard
> location, I don't see what the issue is. The impediment you mention is th=
e
> actual solution. I don't think that a JWT library that was written for Id
> Tokens should be used to parse SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in
> which case the event level iss+sub is not an issue at all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Yaron Sheffer [mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM
> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.
> de>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
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=3D
>
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--001a113718b2ac06f205527ff178
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 21, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8436025389755731518WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, you wrote =E2=
=80=9C</span>BTW, you never offered a solution to the RP issued SETs proble=
m MIke. Can you please do that?<span style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=9D=C2=
=A0 I thought we already had a well-understood solution to that,
 but I=E2=80=99ll repeat it here.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll give the example assum=
ing that the event is about an OpenID Connect account that is named by an (=
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) pair.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If the RP is issuing t=
he SET, it already must identify itself using the top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D claim, per the SET spec.=C2=A0 The OpenID Connect account that is th=
e subject of the event would contain the (=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D) values
 in the event payload.=C2=A0 In fact, I=E2=80=99m assuming that that would =
be the case for all RISC events (and possibly for some other event profiles=
 too).=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m completely supportive of that choice if made by a =
profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But there will also be=
 use cases =E2=80=93 possibly non-identity use cases, in which the thing be=
ing operated on doesn=E2=80=99t have any issuer value or in which the event=
 issuer is always the same as the issuer for the thing
 being operated on.=C2=A0 Trying to impose the choices made by one SET prof=
ile onto all others, though, assumes we know way more about their use cases=
 than we actually do.=C2=A0 We need to leave their conventions up to them =
=E2=80=93 just like JWT left claims conventions up
 to profiles.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s why it=E2=80=99s general-purpose and bei=
ng widely used.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Alri=
ght, so the solution is to optionally allow iss+sub at the event level (in =
which case there is no sub at the top level)? Is this something secevent de=
fines or profiles would have to each define separately?</div><div><br></div=
><div>And again, I don&#39;t see the RP issued SET as a particular profile =
problem.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, speaking of general purpose solutio=
ns. To me sub at event level is general purpose, guaranteed to not cause co=
nflicts. sub at the top level on the other hand will cause conflicts and fo=
rce most (or all) oauth based profiles to re-define how sub is used.<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The only problem with sub only at event level that I=
 am aware of is the compatibly breakage for the logout profile. I agree tha=
t we should not take breakages lightly.</div><div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div cla=
ss=3D"m_8436025389755731518WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_8436025389755731518__MailEndCompose" cl=
ass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a=
></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D""><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> M.Lizar@OCG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt;<wbr=
>; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;; Justin Richer=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, the question =
=E2=80=9C</span>Do you have examples of use cases that cannot handle sub at=
 the event level?<span style=3D"color:#002060">=E2=80=9D is no more useful
 than the question =E2=80=9CDo you have examples of use cases that cannot h=
andle =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 spelled as the Latin word =E2=80=98subiectum=E2=
=80=99?=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I disagree. If sub at the event level is an issue th=
en let&#39;s be concrete about it.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0 Yes, applicatio=
ns could always work around the inconveniences introduced by arbitrary clai=
m renaming or repositioning,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is not an arbitrary repositioning, the reasons =
a very clear.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">but they shouldn=E2=80=
=99t have to.=C2=A0 It just adds complexity and will hinder adoption.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Minor complexity added, if at all. The only downside=
 is the slightly larger size of SETs.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that yo=
ur motivation for always having =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the event payload,=
 rather than a normal claim, is that that=E2=80=99s how you think RISC even=
ts
 will be structured, and that you want *<b>all</b>* events to also use the =
RISC event structuring.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This has absolutely nothing to do with RISC in parti=
cular. Both the confusion problem and the RP issued SETs are generic SET pr=
oblems that need to be solved.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">BTW, you never offered a solution to the RP issued S=
ETs problem MIke. Can you please do that?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0 To my way of th=
inking, if you really believe that you should be asking the SET spec to be =
withdrawn from the IETF and only define RISC events in the
 RISC working group.=C2=A0 But in fact, requiring all events to follow the =
RISC conventions makes no more sense than requiring all JWTs to be ID Token=
s.=C2=A0 That would have made JWTs useless for many use cases.=C2=A0 Propos=
ing to limit claims usage in SETs would likewise
 make them inapplicable for many non-RISC use cases.</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We have a potential su=
ccess on our hands.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s not screw it up by making it unnece=
ssarily complicated.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sure, let&#39;s solve all open issues first.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_8436025389755731518_m_28883173626682067=
45__MailEndCompose" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</=
span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@go=
ogle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:M.Lizar@OCG" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">M.Lizar@OCG</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Richa=
rd Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;;
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:46 AM,
<a href=3D"mailto:M.Lizar@OCG" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">M.Lizar@O=
CG</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">FWIW - I agree with Mike that pu=
tting restrictions on the &quot;sub&quot; claim usage would unnecessarily
 complicate SETs for some use cases.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">sub is defined as optional in JWT, so technically we=
 are not adding any restrictions. Do you have examples of use cases that ca=
nnot handle sub at the event level?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">It=
s a lot easier to add to a spec and very=C2=A0difficult=C2=A0(if not imposs=
ible) to retract.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree. I don&#39;t think anything is retracted.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Again, see:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#secti=
on-4.1.2" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<w=
br>rfc7519#section-4.1.2</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Last sentence of 4.1.2 states &quot;Use of this clai=
m is OPTIONAL.&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">In=
 this regard, keeping it simple is critical for broad adoption.=C2=A0</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;background:white">Ma=
rk</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:55, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting we define SETs in such a wa=
y that they will not work for RISC? A top level iss+sub is clearly not work=
ing for RISC, and may not work for logout either if
 you allow logout to be initiated from an RP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius, there=E2=80=99=
s nothing stopping you (or the RISC working group or other profiles) from d=
efining events that can be sent from RPs to IdPs now, without
 any changes to the SET spec.=C2=A0 Specify the claims you want to use, and=
 you=E2=80=99re golden.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But it would be counte=
rproductive to require all other SETs to meet the requirements of your spec=
ific profile.=C2=A0 There are simpler use cases that can
 use claims in simpler ways.=C2=A0 Trying to make the simple use cases be c=
omplex will have the side effect of limiting the adoption of the spec, whic=
h wouldn=E2=80=99t be good for anyone.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">If successful, SETs wi=
ll have many different profiles.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a sign of success =E2=
=80=93 not a sign of weakness.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_8436025389755731518_m_28883173626682067=
45_m_2130783988945246" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=
=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@go=
ogle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Justin Richer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">j=
richer@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</=
a>&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;;=
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m sorry to b=
e slow replying to some messages in this thread.=C2=A0 I have a lot of othe=
r things on my plate, but I will take the time now to reply, because
 I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the statements below and believe it=
 would be severely harmful to the specification and its adoption to act upo=
n them.=C2=A0 Specifically:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
I disagree that specific rules should be made for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim.=C2=A0 Claims usage needs to be up to the application.=C2=A0 I know =
that many others agree with me, because the OpenID Connect working group de=
signed the logout token in
<a href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-backchannel-1_0-04.html#L=
ogoutToken" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
http://openid.net/specs/<wbr>openid-connect-backchannel-1_<wbr>0-04.html#Lo=
goutToken</a> (which is also used as an example in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section=
-2" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-=
2</a>) to use the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the normal way.=C2=A0 Proh=
ibiting this usage would be a completely unnecessary breaking change =E2=80=
=93 as it=E2=80=99s impossible to confuse a logout token with an ID Token, =
for
 reasons already cites in this thread.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Solving the confusion is one problem. The other prob=
lem I keep mentioning is SETs issued by an RP to be sent to an IdP. How are=
 we solving that problem Mike? In this case the top
 level iss is different from the iss of the sub, a top level sub is not pos=
sible.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And I don&#39;t want to downplay the confusion probl=
em either. I think it is a real concern and I think a solid solution is imp=
ortant.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The OpenID Working Group designed logout tokens with=
out secevent in mind. I agree we should not recklessly break compatibility,=
 but to me it seems necessary in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
(I agree with the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules already in place at <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#<wbr>section-=
2.1</a>.=C2=A0 No further =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D rules are needed.)<u></u><u=
></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Further iss ruies are absolutely needed for the RP t=
o IdP case described above.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
It=E2=80=99s fine for the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter to be used=
 for some profiles to differentiate between kinds of JWTs.=C2=A0 Its use sh=
ould not be mandated in the SET spec.=C2=A0 I would oppose duplicating the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D functionality by defining another claim with a duplic=
ative meaning.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If typ can be use and no other claim is needed, then=
 let&#39;s talk about that. I do think SET should mandate it. I don&#39;t u=
nderstand why not. Can you please propose with examples how
 can typ be used?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
I=E2=80=99ll also respond to Annabelle=E2=80=99s assertion that =E2=80=9CNo=
 other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.=E2=80=9D=
=C2=A0 This reflects a misunderstanding.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s the *<b>value</=
b>* of the nonce that self-secures the JWT =E2=80=93 not that any =E2=80=9C=
nonce=E2=80=9D claim is present.=C2=A0 Any and all
 JWTs can simultaneously use =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D without any risk of co=
nflict, since the nonce value is a cryptographically secure random number.<=
u></u><u></u></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For SETs I cannot see how the nonce value is useful.=
 That value is not passed back and it cannot be verified. Only the presence=
 of the claim could have some use, hinting at the
 usage of the JWT, a very weak solution to the confusion problem.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#002060;margin-left:0in">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Will some of you be at=
 the Cloud Identity Summit next week?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d be glad to have in-=
person discussions about these topics there.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">P.S.=C2=A0 Food for th=
ought:=C2=A0 Prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other cla=
im) or forcing it to be located in a non-standard location makes about as m=
uch
 sense as arbitrarily saying that, for a particular profile, the Latin word=
 for subject =E2=80=9Csubiectum=E2=80=9D must be used as the claim name ins=
tead of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Yes, it will completely differentiate =
this profile from others not spelling the claim name this way, but it
 would certainly be an impediment to the use of standard JWT libraries and =
to interoperability.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we define that sub must be at the event level the=
n it is at a standard location, I don&#39;t see what the issue is. The impe=
diment you mention is the actual solution. I don&#39;t think
 that a JWT library that was written for Id Tokens should be used to parse =
SETs. The library has to be SET aware, in which case the event level iss+su=
b is not an issue at all.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmai=
l.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>So to summarize what I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules f=
or &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;ty=
pe&quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p>Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use =
it in the SET document before it is published.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to this as well.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">m=
scurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 to what Annabelle said.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, fo=
r RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken=
 in this case.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8436025389755731518m_2888317362668206745gmail-m_21307839889452=
46535m_4639718898647749668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMa=
ilSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8436025389755731518m_2888317362668206745gmail-m_21307839889452=
46535m_4639718898647749668m_4441714448721077057m_9094089239668570312AppleMa=
ilSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is de=
pendent upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not desig=
ned to solve this issue. As a result, I see several
 issues with it:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_8436025389755731518m2888317362668206745gmail-m213078398894524=
6535m4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistpara=
graph">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that=
 a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller pas=
ses the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"m_8436025389755731518m2888317362668206745gmail-m213078398894524=
6535m4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistpara=
graph">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_8436025389755731518m2888317362668206745gmail-m213078398894524=
6535m4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistpara=
graph">
3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
No other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_8436025389755731518m2888317362668206745gmail-m213078398894524=
6535m4639718898647749668m4441714448721077057m9094089239668570312msolistpara=
graph">
4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares a=
bout disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We know from experience that naming collisions and r=
eplay attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is=
 a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought
 up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use commo=
n libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library co=
uld handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo =
each profile would require unique logic.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a=
>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard o=
f =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize =
the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 making things that can and should
 be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Mandatory solutions ar=
e being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidenc=
e that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established
 that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=
=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.h=
tml</a>.=C2=A0 If people have data showing that this is possible with speci=
fic kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide sp=
ecifics, so that we can use that data to inform
 appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9C=
solutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in=
 the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple th=
ings unnecessarily
 complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT bu=
t a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to us=
e SETs, the more likely developers are to
 just create their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key =
to adoption.=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-bounces@=
ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkho=
lz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain w=
hat you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To your first question, I think a better analogy wou=
ld be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares =
the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient
 may refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to i=
t in some context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>d=
e</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target clie=
nt, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource access o=
r SET to communicate a security event?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&qu=
ot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matak=
e.jp</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gma=
il.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adaw=
es@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">nov@matake.jp</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">nov@matake.jp</a>&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;&gt;<wbr>:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
mscurtescu@google.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
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m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVq=
XoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCg=
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EivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<wbr>jvgXzua6mi=
RiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d0mxPQFJLhxWI&a=
mp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
ent mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event=
@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9u=
gLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing li=
st<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JP=
KHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oM=
U7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ad=
awes@google.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adaw=
es@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;=
 |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">+1=
 650-214-2410</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%2021=
4-2410" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">tel:(650)%20214-2410</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
r>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwM=
GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3=
zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt;
 mail list to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehY=
vlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">http://hardtware.com/</a>&gt;
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<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c=
&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dht=
tps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&a=
mp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>J=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9=
uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pr=
e>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">Id-event@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event=
</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113718b2ac06f205527ff178--


From nobody Wed Jun 21 15:38:18 2017
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Michael Jones" <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
Thread-Index: AQHS4L+9LvfopeZFDkirzZrO/XTOmqIbvu8AgAAGsYCAACMqAIAAEBEAgAXYe4CAAADegP//lqwAgAEftACAAJUjgP//9x6AgAG/8QD//9AlgAAO8LsAACLOTQAABCSqAABn9XkAAMj4pQD//468gIAAdqeAgAAD8ID//5ZlAIAAdnWA//+VmYA=
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 22:38:05 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/o8OuGxHL_nLHC1-vXs8c7kN7P5c>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:39:14 -0700
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Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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	charset=utf-8

So I understand what is being proposed is:

If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, =
and the issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, =
then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the =
subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims =
required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event =
payload.

For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
A SCIM resource URI of =
https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 might be =
identified in the event payload as: =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a24=
2bd3859c82c4=E2=80=9D

A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and =
depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND =
the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf =
of the OP.


Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a =
single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics =
up to the profiles.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley =
<ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =
Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, =
Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is =
disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
> 1. "account-disabled"
> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express =
multiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events =
from different profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. =
an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout =
event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple =
events in one SET.
>> =20
>> --=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
>> To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>=20
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>> =20
>> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current =
backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its =
own duplicate definitions and meanings.=20
>> =20
>> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>> =20
>> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the =
differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user =
initiated events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations =
that drive off of risk calculations like password reset.=20
>> =20
>> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are =
not commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW =
single sign out not expected.=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the =
same family that agree on top level claims.
>>> =20
>>> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really =
defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>>> =20
>>> John B.
>>> =20
>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET =
sub problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is =
probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>>>> =20
>>>> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate =
conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, =
Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=
=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then =
they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap =
seems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling =
SET.
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Identity Services
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>>>> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, =
Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, =
Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, =
Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>>> =20
>>>> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
>>>> =20
>>>> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is =
better but we can agree on a convention.
>>>> =20
>>>> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a =
JWT.
>>>> =20
>>>> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and =
confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using =
the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>>>> =20
>>>> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.
>>>> =20
>>>> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level =
is a good idea. =20
>>>> =20
>>>> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and =
id_tokens.
>>>> =20
>>>> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT =
for things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>>>> =20
>>>> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the =
sub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but =
should not be required for all event types.
>>>> =20
>>>> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub =
issue.
>>>> =20
>>>> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>>>> =20
>>>> John B.
>>>> =20
>>>>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>>>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules =
for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>>>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is =
taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>>>> Did I miss anything?
>>>>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it =
in the SET document before it is published.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>> =20
>>>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>> +1 to this as well.=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to =
send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in =
this case.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party =
that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. =
Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to =
verify its provenance.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to =
solve this problem again.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D=
 claim.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay =
attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a =
simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT =
libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common =
libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library =
could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status =
quo each profile would require unique logic.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D=
.  I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to =
problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  =
It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a =
SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting =
the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type =
claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, =
then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of =
this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you =
mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the =
X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the =
intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when =
determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some =
context.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not =
covered via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the =
intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to =
communicate a security event?)
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will =
have a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, =
and enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=
=9D approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to =
the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what =
should be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and =
the
>>>>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation =
Rules for
>>>>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different =
sets of
>>>>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different =
kinds of
>>>>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of =
JWTs.".
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of =
clarity and
>>>>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes =
<adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very =
similar to
>>>>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
<nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on =
how to
>>>>>>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and =
Access Tokens in
>>>>>>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations =
will not
>>>>>>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up =
security
>>>>>>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There is also another important =
requirement: the
>>>>>>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be =
different from the
>>>>>>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP =
sending SETs
>>>>>>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I =
propose the
>>>>>>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined =
at the event
>>>>>>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET =
level can
>>>>>>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can =
be different
>>>>>>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the =
top SET
>>>>>>>>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), =
please note
>>>>>>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different =
profiles that
>>>>>>>>>>>                     define event types to define additional =
claims
>>>>>>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or =
phone_number) and
>>>>>>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the =
event level
>>>>>>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or =
ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) =
was to
>>>>>>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is =
not solving
>>>>>>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET =
issuer. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having =
different syntax
>>>>>>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to =
confusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to =
introduce a new
>>>>>>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". =
This is not
>>>>>>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also =
is not
>>>>>>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, =
but I think
>>>>>>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should =
seriously
>>>>>>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>                     =
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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xWI&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                     =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                     =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>                 =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                 =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 =
<tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
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>>>>>>>>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
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>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>
>>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>
> =20


--Apple-Mail=_F15F2A85-E5AD-42D2-843C-94A5196D10A5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">So I understand what is being proposed =
is:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 to identify its subject, and the issuer of the subject is identical to =
the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the =
top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D)=
 and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be =
contained in the event payload.</font></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 =
might be represented in a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in =
the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"</div><div=
 class=3D"">A SCIM resource URI of <a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=
</a> might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"<=
a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4"=
 =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=
</a>=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depends =
on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the =
subject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of =
the OP.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles =
within a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub =
semantics up to the profiles.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, =
2017 at 2:58 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Phil=
 Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, =
Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Example for multiple =
events within same profile: IdP account is disabled (because of =
hijacking), this can lead to two events:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">1. =
"account-disabled"<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">2. "sessions-revoked"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The spec says that the =
events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple logical events. If =
it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from different profiles =
that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel =
logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), then I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one =
SET.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil Hunt =
(IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, =
2017 at 2:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Separate or combined may be evolving. =
Mike wants to keep the current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. =
He suggested risc define its own duplicate definitions and =
meanings.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">That leads me to believe we will have =
multi-type events in practice.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Session cancellation can occur for many =
reasons. One of the differentiators we had tried to make was an =
assumption that user initiated events would be part of connect. Risk =
would cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like password =
reset.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">There are also signout events at rp's to =
let the OP know. These are not commands but notification that a resource =
session is cancelled. IOW single sign out not expected.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I thought we decided that we are only =
allowing set messages form the same family that agree on top level =
claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Otherwise there can =
be no top level claims and we are really defining a alternative format =
to JWT in some ways.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree with John that the JWT type confusion =
problem and the SET sub problem can and should be discussed separately. =
The secevents WG is probably not the right setting to discuss the =
former.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">My concern with the sub claim is that two =
profiles may dictate conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99=
s a phone number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If =
these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject =
of their events, then they cannot be present within the same token. This =
incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily missed by =
groups profiling SET.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">John =
Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wedn=
esday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaro=
n Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Just=
in Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Annabelle Richard &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.&nbsp; Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Using the cty is also possible. =
&nbsp; I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a =
convention.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">Not everything =
is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">If we are going =
to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT =
for different purposes, we should just start using the typ parameter =
based on the existing spec.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">In general =
content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually gets you =
into trouble.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">I am not convinced that forcing =
there to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">It is not the =
way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">If sub is not =
allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the =
subject is scoped to the iss of the token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">I think defining =
sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is scoped =
differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be =
required for all event types.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">I think we =
should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">Sorry I am at =
CIS so trying to catch up on lists.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron =
Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Everybody agrees with Marius's =
short-term solution, specific rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be =
defined in the SET spec.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" =
is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Did I miss anything?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">By the way, if we do add a "usage" =
claim, we need to also use it in the SET document before it is =
published.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">On 15/06/17 =
22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">+1 to this as =
well.<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, =
at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle said.<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">Also, Mike you =
are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The =
iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Marius<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">+1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Mike,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Your explanation for =
why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements of =
OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result, =
I see several issues with it:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT =
profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution =
to the problem.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We know from =
experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both things =
that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general =
solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT =
parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wedn=
esday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mari=
us Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ric=
hard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature =
optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in =
this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making =
things that can and should be simple complex, without data showing =
there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in =
this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we =
actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established that =
it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93=
 see<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428=
.html</span></a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that this is =
possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, =
such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, =
or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things =
unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than =
a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would =
have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more =
unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just =
create their own data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key to =
adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful if they are actually =
used.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
-- Mike</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Rich=
ard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;; =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99=
s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</sp=
an><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">To your first question, I think a better analogy =
would be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that =
declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer =
to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in =
some context.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tues=
day, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Henk=
 Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">And a 2nd question.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not =
covered via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the =
intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to =
communicate a security event?)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">I don't know what do you mean by =
"intend" (or intent)?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, =
Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">Thanks for putting this =
together!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the assumptions inherent =
in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t =
guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually exclusive set of =
valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires a =
=E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that =
JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a =
current spec.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is unrealistic to =
expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for =
different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec or =
not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier =
than managing N different keys.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto =
for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusag=
e=E2=80=9D claim/header parameter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Identity Services<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">*From: =
*Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D"">*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: =
*Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam =
Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;, ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. =
Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, =
very good timing :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The =
issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive =
Validation Rules for<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of =
JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different =
kinds of JWTs.".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I still =
think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I =
just published an BCP ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</span></a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM =
Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I =
was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now =
think this is a better plan.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 =
especially for "type"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at =
6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There were a couple =
of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and =
Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a way that naive implementations will =
not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confuse one for the other and open up security<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; to an IdP.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; following:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and =
"iss" to be defined at the event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level =
can<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and =
"sub" at event level can be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across events in the =
same SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles =
that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define event types to define additional claims<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; related to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; since all these claims will be at the event level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Another proposal =
(which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define a composite "aud" =
claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the requirement for a =
distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having the same claim =
name having different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in different token types could =
lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; practical in the short term, and it also is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; this is something the JWT group should seriously<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; consider.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9=
NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6=
Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</span></a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
--<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. =
Product Manager |<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt; |<a =
href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">+1 650-214-2410</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214-2410" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">tel:(650)%20214-2410</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br =
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class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a =
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r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7=
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V80&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
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class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a =
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underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://hardtware.com/</span></a>&gt; mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssK=
FZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><=
div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: =
initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: =
initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Wed Jun 21 16:46:09 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
CC: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Justin Richer" <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
Thread-Index: AQHS4L+9wo/ttGOlNk21y94S0EHb26Ibvu8AgAAGsYCAACMqAIAAEBEAgAXYe4CAAADegIAADAUAgACqWwCAAJUjgIAAbHaAgAFJ8nCAAEYlgIAAAiwAgAEWcwCAACElAIADP6wAgAZHxQCAAAQVgIAAAU6AgAAD8YCAAAu+gIAAARyAgAAK8YCAABEWAIAAAeGL
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 23:45:57 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/Utyu9J9JaKr07lpGB0dbyOtHCtY>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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--_000_CY4PR21MB0504EB3DF824A845C282B4DDF5DA0CY4PR21MB0504namp_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
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The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as they =
are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which claims they=
 use and how they use them.

It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.

=96 Mike
From: Phil Hunt<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
To: Richard Backman, Annabelle<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: Marius Scurtescu<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley<mailto:ve7=
jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jus=
tin Richer<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com>; Mike Jones<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing Lis=
t<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

So I understand what is being proposed is:

If the event type uses =93sub=94 to identify its subject, and the issuer of=
 the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =93sub=94 may b=
e used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =93sub=94=
) and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be co=
ntained in the event payload.

For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =93ipaddres=
s=94 claim defined in the event payload. =93ipaddress=94:=941.2.3.4"
A SCIM resource URI of https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242=
bd3859c82c4 might be identified in the event payload as: =93sub=94:"https:/=
/scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=94

A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depends =
on =93iss=94 being the same for the event issuer AND the subject. This mean=
s that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.


Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com<http://www.independentid.com>
phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.co=
m<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:

Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a singl=
e SET, then I=92m less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to the prof=
iles.

--
Annabelle Richard Backman
Identity Services


From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>=
>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com<mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com>>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, =
John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>, Henk Birkholz <=
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, J=
ustin Richer <jricher@mit.edu<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Yaron Sheffer <yaro=
nf.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing L=
ist <id-event@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled (b=
ecause of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
1. "account-disabled"
2. "sessions-revoked"

Marius

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazo=
n.com<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple =
logical events. If it=92s also not used to express events from different pr=
ofiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel =
logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), then I=92m not su=
re what use case that leaves for multiple events in one SET.

--
Annabelle Richard Backman
Identity Services


From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>=
> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com>>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com<mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com>>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkhol=
z@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu<mailto:jricher@mit.ed=
u>>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>=
, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Mich=
ael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>=
, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>

Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current backch=
annel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own duplica=
te definitions and meanings.

That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.

Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators=
 we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiated events would be=
 part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calcul=
ations like password reset.

There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not com=
mands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single sig=
n out not expected.

Phil

On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com<mailto:ve7jtb@=
ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same f=
amily that agree on top level claims.

Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a alt=
ernative format to JWT in some ways.

John B.

On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.co=
m<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:

I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub probl=
em can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably not=
 the right setting to discuss the former.

My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting =
semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=92s a phone number, Profile B says it=92s=
 an email address). If these profiles don=92t provide an alternate way to d=
eclare subject of their events, then they cannot be present within the same=
 token. This incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily=
 missed by groups profiling SET.

--
Annabelle Richard Backman
Identity Services


From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtes=
cu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Annabelle Richard=
 <richanna@amazon.com<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@or=
acle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-ev=
ent@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.f=
raunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jwt =
if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.

Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better but =
we can agree on a convention.

Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.

If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusion=
 around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ para=
meter based on the existing spec.

In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually get=
s you into trouble.

I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a go=
od idea.

It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.

If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for thing=
s where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.

I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is sco=
ped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be req=
uired for all event types.

I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.

Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.

John B.

On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ya=
ronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:

So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "sub=
" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) that=
 should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
Did I miss anything?
By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SET=
 document before it is published.
Thanks,
    Yaron

On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
+1 to this as well.

 =97 Justin

On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:

+1 to what Annabelle said.

Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to=
 an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.

Marius

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
+1

Phil

On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.co=
m<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
Mike,

Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effec=
ts of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue=
. As a result, I see several issues with it:

1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be cer=
tain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the c=
aller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.

2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this proble=
m again.

3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=94 claim.

4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that=
 cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.


We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both =
things that happen. What=92s being proposed is a simple, defensive measure =
against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution actua=
lly makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =93usage-awa=
re=94 JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas =
with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.

--
Annabelle Richard Backman
Identity Services


From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>=
> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones=
@microsoft.com>>
Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com<mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org=
>>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit=
.fraunhofer.de>>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

You=92ve heard of =93premature optimization=94.  I=92d characterize the pro=
posals in this thread as =93premature pessimation=94 =96 making things that=
 can and should be simple complex, without data showing there=92s any need =
to do so.

Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that ther=
e=92s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=92s already been establis=
hed that it=92s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =96 see=
 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html<https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchi=
ve_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55=
UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that this is possib=
le with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, plea=
se provide specifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate en=
gineering choices on our part.

The proposed =93solutions=94, such as prohibiting the use of =93sub=94 in t=
he normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thin=
gs unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a no=
rmal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have t=
o be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it=
 to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own data =
structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only =
useful if they are actually used.

                                                -- Mike

From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard Back=
man, Annabelle
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>;=
 Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fr=
aunhofer.de>>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

Echoing Marius=92s question: can you explain what you mean by =93intend=94?

To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usa=
ge extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of=
 the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to acc=
ept a JWT being presented to it in some context.

--
Annabelle Richard Backman
Identity Services


From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>=
> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@go=
ogle.com>>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit=
.fraunhofer.de>>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofe=
r.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
And a 2nd question.

What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend"=
, "audience", and "scope"?

"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (a=
ccess token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security e=
vent?)

"scope" is not used by SET.

I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?




Henk

On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
Thanks for putting this together!

I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:

=B7We can=92t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually exclusi=
ve set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this require=
s a =93fail on an unrecognized claim=94 approach to ensure that JWTs from s=
ome future spec can=92t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.

=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =93different k=
eys for different kinds of JWTs=94 rule. Whether mandated by the spec or no=
t, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than ma=
naging N different keys.

=B7Ditto for =93aud=94 and =93iss=94 claims.

+1 for a =93type=94 or =93usage=94 claim/header parameter.

--

Annabelle Richard Backman

Identity Services

*From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.or=
g>> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om>>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
*To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>=
>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com<mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, no=
v" <nov@matake.jp<mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@=
ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer

Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<ma=
ilto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@=
google.com>>> wrote:

    Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)

    The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
    mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
    Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
    required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
    JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".

    I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
    safety.


    Marius

    On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com<mailto=
:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:

        Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
        http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vj=
faHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>

        On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com<mailto=
:adawes@google.com>
        <mailto:adawes@google.com<mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:

            I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
            id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.

            On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp<mailt=
o:nov@matake.jp>
            <mailto:nov@matake.jp<mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:

                +1 especially for "type"

                2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
                <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:

                    +1

                    Phil


                     > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
                    <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
                    <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.=
com>>> wrote:
                     >
                     > There were a couple of proposals on how to
                    distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
                    such a way that naive implementations will not
                    confuse one for the other and open up security
                    vulnerabilities.
                     >
                     > There is also another important requirement: the
                    SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
                    "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
                    to an IdP.
                     >
                     > With these requirements in mind I propose the
                    following:
                     > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
                    level
                     > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
                    be different
                     > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
                    across events in the same SET
                     > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
                    level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
                    "should" and not "must"
                     >
                     > This solution also allows different profiles that
                    define event types to define additional claims
                    related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
                    since all these claims will be at the event level
                    there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
                     >
                     > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
                    define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
                    the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
                    having the same claim name having different syntax
                    in different token types could lead to confusion.
                     >
                     > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
                    claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
                    practical in the short term, and it also is not
                    solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
                    this is something the JWT group should seriously
                    consider.
                     >
                     > Thoughts?
                     >
                     > Marius

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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most support is =
keeping things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to d=
efine which claims they use and how they use them.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use the langua=
ge below.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=96 Mike</p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E=
1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">Phil Hunt</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com">Richard Backman, Annabell=
e</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">Marius Scurtescu</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com">
John Bradley</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">Henk B=
irkholz</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">Justin Richer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com">
Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mike Jone=
s</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">
ID Events Mailing List</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"">So I understand what is being proposed is:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">If the event type use=
s =93sub=94 to identify its subject, and the issuer of the subject is ident=
ical to the issuer for the event, then =93sub=94 may be used at the top lev=
el. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =93sub=94)
 and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be con=
tained in the event payload.</font></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented =
in a =93ipaddress=94 claim defined in the event payload. =93ipaddress=94:=
=941.2.3.4&quot;</div>
<div class=3D"">A SCIM resource URI of <a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/=
users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" class=3D"">
https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4</a> might b=
e identified in the event payload as: =93sub=94:&quot;<a href=3D"https://sc=
im.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" class=3D"">https://s=
cim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4</a>=94</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub cl=
aim and depends on =93iss=94 being the same for the event issuer AND the su=
bject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP=
.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -=
webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Phil</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp;=
 Standards</div>
<div class=3D"">@independentid</div>
<div class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" class=3D"">www.ind=
ependentid.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:=
 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Helve=
tica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-=
weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px=
; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a si=
ngle SET, then I=92m less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to the p=
rofiles.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a=
>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>W=
ednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>&qu=
ot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.c=
om" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>&qu=
ot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=
=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7j=
tb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit=
.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mi=
t.edu</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" c=
lass=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&g=
t;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D""=
>id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></=
b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET is=
suer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled (b=
ecause of hijacking), this can lead to two events:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></d=
iv>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
1. &quot;account-disabled&quot;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
2. &quot;sessions-revoked&quot;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Marius<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-=
decoration: underline;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multip=
le logical events. If it=92s also not used to express events from different=
 profiles that correspond to the same
 logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypotheti=
cal RISC logout event), then I=92m not sure what use case that leaves for m=
ultiple events in one SET.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: pur=
ple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;
 on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: under=
line;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>W=
ednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Joh=
n Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=
=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.co=
m</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>&qu=
ot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.c=
om" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple;=
 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a=
>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" sty=
le=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.ed=
u</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=
=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
 Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">yaronf.i=
etf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: und=
erline;" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></=
b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET is=
suer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current backch=
annel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own duplica=
te definitions and meanings.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.<o:p cl=
ass=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators=
 we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiated events would be=
 part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calcul=
ations like password reset.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not com=
mands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single sig=
n out not expected.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
<br class=3D"">
On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7j=
tb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underlin=
e;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same f=
amily that agree on top level claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a alt=
ernative format to JWT in some ways.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-deco=
ration: underline;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub pr=
oblem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably =
not the right setting to discuss the
 former.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicti=
ng semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=92s a phone number, Profile B says it=
=92s an email address). If these profiles
 don=92t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then =
they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap see=
ms like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.</spa=
n><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
From:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">J=
ohn Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.c=
om</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" cl=
ass=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" targ=
et=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtes=
cu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
 Annabelle Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" cl=
ass=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
 Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-deco=
ration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusio=
n and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.&nbsp; Registering application/idt=
&#43;jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Using the cty is also possible. &nbsp; I need to think about what is better=
 but we can agree on a convention.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusion=
 around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ para=
meter based on the existing spec.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually get=
s you into trouble.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a go=
od idea. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<o:p cl=
ass=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for thing=
s where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p=
></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is sco=
ped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be req=
uired for all event types.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></di=
v>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: und=
erline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@g=
mail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for &quo=
t;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.<o:p cl=
ass=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;type&=
quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Did I miss anything?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use it =
in the SET document before it is published.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&#43;1 to this as well.<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;=97 Justin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu=
@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&#43;1 to what Annabelle said.<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to=
 an IdP. The iss&#43;sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Marius<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration=
: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hun=
t@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&#43;1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" c=
lass=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature" c=
lass=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-posi=
tion: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=
=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=
=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Mike,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side ef=
fects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this is=
sue. As a result, I see several issues
 with it:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<p class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initia=
l initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif;" class=3D"">The
 caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that a =
nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes=
 the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.</span><o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initia=
l initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif;" class=3D"">Any
 future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.</sp=
an><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initia=
l initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3.</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span c=
lass=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
No
 other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=94 claim.</span><o:p cla=
ss=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initia=
l initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">4.</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span c=
lass=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
This
 is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares about=
 disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.</span><o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bo=
th things that happen. What=92s being proposed is a simple, defensive measu=
re against these risks. You brought up
 JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common l=
ibraries for JWT parsing. A =93usage-aware=94 JWT library could handle disa=
mbiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each profile wo=
uld require unique logic.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
From:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
d-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=
=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.=
com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com=
</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-dec=
oration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">r=
ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><sp=
an style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, He=
nk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=
=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""=
><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<=
/span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusio=
n and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">You=92ve heard of =93premature optimization=94.&nbsp; I=92d charac=
terize the proposals in this thread as =93premature pessimation=94 =96 maki=
ng things that can and should be simple complex, without
 data showing there=92s any need to do so.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></di=
v>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems =
that there=92s no evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=92s already=
 been established that it=92s impossible for a
 SET to be confused for an ID Token =96 see<span class=3D"m-462984256938515=
9988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_c=
urrent_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55U=
ROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text=
-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D=
"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</sp=
an></a>.&nbsp;
 If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of A=
ccess Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so th=
at we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our pa=
rt.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">The proposed =93solutions=94, such as prohibiting the use of =93su=
b=94 in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously si=
mple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then
 the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this i=
s that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JW=
T parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely d=
evelopers are to just create their own
 data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Sta=
ndards are only useful if they are actually used.</span><o:p class=3D""></o=
:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" cl=
ass=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<=
/span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-=
converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"c=
olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;" class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span clas=
s=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D""=
>On
 Behalf Of<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.=
com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com=
</span></a>&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
"><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de=
</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline=
;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</=
span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusio=
n and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Echoing Marius=92s question: can you explain what you mean by =93intend=
=94?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key =
Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose=
 of the JWT, and that a recipient may
 refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in=
 some context.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=
From:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
d-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=
=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</sp=
an></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: unde=
rline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@=
sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline=
;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</=
span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusio=
n and distinct SET issuer</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.b=
irkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-d=
ecoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D""=
>henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p=
></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
And a 2nd question.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intende=
d usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
I don't know what do you mean by &quot;intend&quot; (or intent)?<o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Henk<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
Thanks for putting this together!<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=B7We can=92t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually exclusi=
ve set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this require=
s a =93fail on an unrecognized claim=94 approach to ensure that JWTs from s=
ome future spec can=92t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =93different k=
eys for different kinds of JWTs=94 rule. Whether mandated by the spec or no=
t, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than ma=
naging N different keys.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
=B7Ditto for =93aud=94 and =93iss=94 claims.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&#43;1 for a =93type=94 or =93usage=94 claim/header parameter.<br class=3D"=
">
<br class=3D"">
--<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><=
br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Identity Services<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><s=
pan style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a=
>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=
=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span>=
</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""=
><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>=
&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span styl=
e=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;mat=
ake, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=
=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"c=
olor: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><sp=
an style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, &q=
uot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
"><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>=
&gt;<br class=3D"">
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decorati=
on: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurt=
escu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" c=
lass=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</=
span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br class=3D=
"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-de=
coration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">=
dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><sp=
an style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da=
7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
color: purple;" class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</span></a><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purpl=
e; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" c=
lass=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span><=
/a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"c=
olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: under=
line;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</=
span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &#43;1 especially f=
or &quot;type&quot;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T&#43;09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-dec=
oration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;=
" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &#43;=
1<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<=
br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: p=
urple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple=
;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"c=
olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br cla=
ss=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulne=
rabilities.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an=
 IdP.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; follo=
wing:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the event=
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level=
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br class=3D=
"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be di=
fferent<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be different=
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; acros=
s events in the same SET<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the r=
equirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consi=
der.<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; Marius<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; _______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-posi=
tion: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: pu=
rple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;=
" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m-46298425693851599=
88apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: under=
line;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
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<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; _____=
__________________________________________<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-ev=
ent mailing list<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
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t-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=
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rg" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</spa=
n></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
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 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" cla=
ss=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br class=
=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ___________________=
____________________________<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing li=
st<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m-462=
9842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-ev=
ent@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: un=
derline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@iet=
f.org</span></a><span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span s=
tyle=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br clas=
s=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m-462=
9842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urld=
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<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m-46298425693851=
59988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: pur=
ple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;"=
 class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adaw=
es@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
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le.com</span></a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" target=3D"_blank=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span sty=
le=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">&#43;1
 650-214-2410</span></a><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%2021=
4-2410" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underlin=
e;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">tel:(650)%20214-24=
10</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; _________________________________=
______________<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m-46298425693851599=
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<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
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PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
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urple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple=
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ier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial init=
ial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Cour=
ier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial init=
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nderline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ie=
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ier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial init=
ial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_i=
d-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QD=
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: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">https://=
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e>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as the=
y
> are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which claims th=
ey
> use and how they use them.
>
>
>
> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>

I don't think this is acceptable Mike.

I'll summarize again.

We have two open problem to solve:
1. SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
particular).
2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the top level, the "sub"
related "iss" is different from the SET "iss". This is not specific to any
particular profile.

Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and a long term solution.
The important solution for secevent is the short term one.

Out of the above only the long term solution for problem 1 has some
promising resolution (using typ or cty).

So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to secevent is solved
basically.

Again, if your main concern is compatibility for the logout spec (which is
understandable) then let's talk about that and see if we can find a
solution for the two problems above with that constraint. Unfortunately I
cannot see such a solution.





>
>
> =E2=80=93 Mike
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
> *To: *Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley
> <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jus=
tin
> Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Mike
> Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List
> <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>
> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and=
 the issuer of
> the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D may be
> used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D) and
> any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be
> contained in the event payload.
>
> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a
> =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9C=
ipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
> A SCIM resource URI of https://scim.example.com/users/
> ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 might be identified in the event payload
> as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45c=
e9a242bd3859c82c4
> =E2=80=9D
>
> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depend=
s
> on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the subj=
ect. This means
> that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a
> single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics u=
p to the
> profiles.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *"Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <
> ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,
> Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled
> (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
> 1. "account-disabled"
> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multipl=
e
> logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from diff=
erent
> profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
> backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), the=
n
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one=
 SET.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
> *To: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current
> backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own
> duplicate definitions and meanings.
>
> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>
> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the
> differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiate=
d
> events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive o=
ff
> of risk calculations like password reset.
>
> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not
> commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW singl=
e
> sign out not expected.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same
> family that agree on top level claims.
>
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a
> alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>
> John B.
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub
> problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is
> probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflictin=
g
> semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B say=
s it=E2=80=99s an
> email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way =
to declare
> subject of their events, then they cannot be present within the same toke=
n.
> This incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily misse=
d
> by groups profiling SET.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> *To: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil
> Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jw=
t
> if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.
>
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better bu=
t
> we can agree on a convention.
>
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and
> confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using t=
he
> typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually
> gets you into trouble.
>
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a
> good idea.
>
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for
> things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is
> scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not b=
e
> required for all event types.
>
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue=
.
>
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>
> John B.
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
> Did I miss anything?
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
> Thanks,
>     Yaron
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
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--94eb2c11bde234f01d05528166ee
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">


<div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most support is =
keeping things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to d=
efine which claims they use and how they use them.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use the langua=
ge below.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think=
 this is acceptable Mike.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll summarize again=
.</div><div><br></div><div>We have two open problem to solve:</div><div>1. =
SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens and Access Tokens in parti=
cular).</div><div>2. In some cases there is an &quot;iss&quot; conflict at =
the top level, the &quot;sub&quot; related &quot;iss&quot; is different fro=
m the SET &quot;iss&quot;. This is not specific to any particular profile.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and=
 a long term solution. The important solution for secevent is the short ter=
m one.</div><div><br></div><div>Out of the above only the long term solutio=
n for problem 1 has some promising resolution (using typ or cty).</div><div=
><br></div><div>So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to secevent=
 is solved basically.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, if your main concern =
is compatibility for the logout spec (which is understandable) then let&#39=
;s talk about that and see if we can find a solution for the two problems a=
bove with that constraint. Unfortunately I cannot see such a solution.</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=93 Mike</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Phil =
Hunt</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">Richard Backman, Annabelle</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">Marius Scurtescu</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
John Bradley</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Henk Birkholz</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Justi=
n Richer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">
Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Mike Jones</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
ID Events Mailing List</a></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer</div></div><p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>So I understand what is being proposed is:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New">If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D to identify its subject, and the issuer of the subject is identical to =
the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top=
 level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D)
 and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be con=
tained in the event payload.</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =E2=80=
=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddres=
s=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4&quot;</div>
<div>A SCIM resource URI of <a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1fa=
ebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://scim.example.com/<wbr>users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr=
>c4</a> might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859=
c82c4" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.<wbr>com/use=
rs/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>=E2=80=9D</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and dep=
ends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the s=
ubject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the O=
P.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-c=
ollapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards<=
/div>
<div>@independentid</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cr=
emed">www.independentid.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@am=
azon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform=
:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)=
">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fair point. I=
f we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a single SET, then I=
=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to the profiles.<u=
></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google=
.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=
@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>&quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Br=
adley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.=
birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkhol=
z@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled (b=
ecause of hijacking), this can lead to two events:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
1. &quot;account-disabled&quot;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
2. &quot;sessions-revoked&quot;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Marius<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u><=
/u><u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.=
8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The spec says=
 that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple logical event=
s. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from different profiles =
that correspond to the same
 logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypotheti=
cal RISC logout event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves=
 for multiple events in one SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event=
-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
 on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb=
@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna=
@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.=
edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
 Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf=
.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">i=
d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current backch=
annel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own duplica=
te definitions and meanings.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.<u></u>=
<u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators=
 we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiated events would be=
 part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calcul=
ations like password reset.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
There are also signout events at rp&#39;s to let the OP know. These are not=
 commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single=
 sign out not expected.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
<br>
On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7j=
tb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same f=
amily that agree on top level claims.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a alt=
ernative format to JWT in some ways.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
John B.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><=
u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I agree with =
John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and sh=
ould be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably not the right se=
tting to discuss the
 former.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My concern wi=
th the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting semantics (e.=
g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s =
an email address). If these profiles
 don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events,=
 then they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility tr=
ap seems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET=
.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@=
gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.=
edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
 Annabelle Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">rich=
anna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
 Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token=
 confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.=C2=A0 Registering application/idt=
+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Using the cty is also possible. =C2=A0 I need to think about what is better=
 but we can agree on a convention.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<u></=
u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusion=
 around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ para=
meter based on the existing spec.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually get=
s you into trouble.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a go=
od idea. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<u></u>=
<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for thing=
s where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is sco=
ped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be req=
uired for all event types.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.<=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
John B.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</s=
pan></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
So to summarize what I&#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Everybody agrees with Marius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules for =
&quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.<u>=
</u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Almost everybody agrees on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;type&=
quot; is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u></=
u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
By the way, if we do add a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use it =
in the SET document before it is published.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Thanks,<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
+1 to this as well.<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988=
apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com=
</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
+1 to what Annabelle said.<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-462984256938=
5159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to=
 an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<u></u><u=
></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Marius<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in=
 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
+1<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312A=
ppleMailSignature">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312A=
ppleMailSignature">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Phil<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Jun 14, 2=
017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@=
amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span=
></a>&gt;
 wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike,</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your explanat=
ion for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of element=
s of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result=
, I see several issues
 with it:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background=
-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=
=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
The
 caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that a =
nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes=
 the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background=
-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2.</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=
=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Any
 future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background=
-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_49812728225174323=
0m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No
 other profile of JWT can ever use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background=
-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">4.</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_49812728225174323=
0m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This
 is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares about=
 disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We know from =
experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both things that h=
appen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive measure against=
 these risks. You brought up
 JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common l=
ibraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could=
 handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo eac=
h profile would require unique logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span>=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtesc=
u@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</=
span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">ric=
hanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token=
 confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">You=E2=80=
=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d =
characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=
=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex, wi=
thout
 data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mandatory=
 solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=
=99s no evidence that we actually even have.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s already bee=
n established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a
 SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span class=3D"m_498127282=
251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=
=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/cur=
rent/<wbr>msg00428.html</span></a>.=C2=A0
 If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of A=
ccess Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so th=
at we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our pa=
rt.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The propo=
sed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previou=
sly simple things unnecessarily complex.=C2=A0 Yes, then
 the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this i=
s that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JW=
T parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely d=
evelopers are to just create their own
 data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.=C2=A0 Sta=
ndards are only useful if they are actually used.</span><u></u><u></u></div=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u=
><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</spa=
n></b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span class=3D"m=
_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
><b>On
 Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtesc=
u@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</=
span></a>&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span=
></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</sp=
an></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token=
 confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Echoing Mariu=
s=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=
=80=9D?</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To your first=
 question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usage extension:=
 a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and=
 that a recipient may
 refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in=
 some context.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkhol=
z@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</sp=
an></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token=
 confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.b=
irkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkh=
olz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in=
 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
&quot;aud&quot; (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intende=
d usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
&quot;scope&quot; is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
I don&#39;t know what do you mean by &quot;intend&quot; (or intent)?<u></u>=
<u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in=
 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></di=
v>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in=
 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br>
--<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span><br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on be=
half of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Phil Hu=
nt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google=
.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
><span style=3D"color:purple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@=
gmail.com</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-46298425693=
85159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDw=
MGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKu=
gCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_=
3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690<=
/span></a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">a=
dawes@google.com</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&g=
t; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&g=
t;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@or=
acle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed"><span style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&g=
t;:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_498127=
282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">I<wbr>d-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span =
class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
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<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-ev=
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class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_49812728225174323=
0m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr=
>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
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></a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing li=
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127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-=
event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385=
159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-e=
vent@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a =
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underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://www.ietf.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_49812728225174=
3230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
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es@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</spa=
n></a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">+1
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class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">tel:(650)%20214-2410</span></=
a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wb=
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:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
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nverted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
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gt;<br>
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Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
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on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
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<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
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Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u>=
</u></div>
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</blockquote>
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<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYV=
ITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeG=
JxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>=
00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWW=
s&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDh=
mHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u>=
</u></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>___=
______________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=
=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5b=
iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_=
4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cla=
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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+1

Phil

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>=
 wrote:
>> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as the=
y are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which claims the=
y use and how they use them.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>>=20
>=20
> I don't think this is acceptable Mike.
>=20
> I'll summarize again.
>=20
> We have two open problem to solve:
> 1. SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens and Access Tokens in p=
articular).
> 2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the top level, the "sub" re=
lated "iss" is different from the SET "iss". This is not specific to any par=
ticular profile.
>=20
> Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and a long term solution. T=
he important solution for secevent is the short term one.
>=20
> Out of the above only the long term solution for problem 1 has some promis=
ing resolution (using typ or cty).
>=20
> So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to secevent is solved basi=
cally.
>=20
> Again, if your main concern is compatibility for the logout spec (which is=
 understandable) then let's talk about that and see if we can find a solutio=
n for the two problems above with that constraint. Unfortunately I cannot se=
e such a solution.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93 Mike
>>=20
>> From: Phil Hunt
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
>> To: Richard Backman, Annabelle
>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu; John Bradley; Henk Birkholz; Justin Richer; Yaron S=
heffer; Mike Jones; ID Events Mailing List
>>=20
>>=20
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer
>> =20
>>=20
>> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>>=20
>> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and=
 the issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of a=
n event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims required to unique=
ly identify the subject MUST be contained in the event payload.
>>=20
>> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =E2=80=9C=
ipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=
=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
>> A SCIM resource URI of https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a2=
42bd3859c82c4 might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depend=
s on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the subje=
ct. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon=
.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a si=
ngle SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to t=
he profiles.
>>> =20
>>> --=20
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> Identity Services
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
>>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
>>> Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jt=
b.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jric=
her@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and disti=
nct SET issuer
>>> =20
>>> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled=
 (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
>>> 1. "account-disabled"
>>> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>>>=20
>>> Marius
>>> =20
>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@a=
mazon.com> wrote:
>>>> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multi=
ple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from dif=
ferent profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC back=
channel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), then I=E2=80=
=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one SET.
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Identity Services
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM=
)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
>>>> To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <=
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Sc=
urtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mich=
ael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dist=
inct SET issuer
>>>> =20
>>>> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current ba=
ckchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own dupl=
icate definitions and meanings.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>>>> =20
>>>> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentia=
tors we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiated events would=
 be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calc=
ulations like password reset.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not=
 commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single s=
ign out not expected.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>>>>> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the s=
ame family that agree on top level claims.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a=
 alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> John B.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@ama=
zon.com> wrote:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub=
 problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probabl=
y not the right setting to discuss the former.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate confli=
cting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B s=
ays it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide a=
n alternate way to declare subject of their events, then they cannot be pres=
ent within the same token. This incompatibility trap seems like something th=
at could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>>>>>> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@goo=
gle.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@orac=
le.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List=
 <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/id=
t+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is bette=
r but we can agree on a convention.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT=
.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and con=
fusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ=
 parameter based on the existing spec.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventual=
ly gets you into trouble.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level i=
s a good idea. =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for=
 things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub i=
s scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be=
 required for all event types.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub i=
ssue.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>>>>>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules f=
or "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>>>>>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is take=
n) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>>>>>> Did I miss anything?
>>>>>>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in t=
he SET document before it is published.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>>> +1 to this as well.=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.c=
om> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send e=
vents to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richann=
a@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon=
 side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve t=
his issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that=
 can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party t=
hat the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenanc=
e.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve t=
his problem again.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D=
 claim.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT p=
rofile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the=
 problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attack=
s are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, de=
fensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general=
 solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A=
 =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for a=
ny JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require uniqu=
e logic.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jon=
es <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Event=
s Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion a=
nd distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D=
.  I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematu=
re pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simpl=
e complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problem=
s that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s=
 already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confu=
sed for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-e=
vent/current/msg00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possib=
le with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, pleas=
e provide specifics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engi=
neering choices on our part.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting th=
e use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim,=
 would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the r=
esult is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that c=
ustom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.=
  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are t=
o just create their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to ad=
option.  Standards are only useful if they are actually used.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
ichard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion a=
nd distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean=
 by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.=
509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended p=
urpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whethe=
r to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius S=
curtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion a=
nd distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@s=
it.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered v=
ia "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intend=
ed usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a s=
ecurity event?)
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will h=
ave a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and e=
nforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D app=
roach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken fo=
r JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to th=
e =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether=
 mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing=
 one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D cla=
im/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick=
 Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matak=
e.jp>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.h=
unt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusi=
on and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what sh=
ould be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@=
google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and t=
he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation R=
ules for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets=
 of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kin=
ds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of J=
WTs.".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of cla=
rity and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gma=
il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@goog=
le.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very s=
imilar to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@ma=
take.jp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scur=
tescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how=
 to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access=
 Tokens in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations will=
 not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up secu=
rity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There is also another important require=
ment: the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different=
 from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP se=
nding SETs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I propo=
se the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at=
 the event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET l=
evel can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be=
 different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the to=
p SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), pl=
ease note
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different pro=
files that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     define event types to define additional cl=
aims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number=
) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the even=
t level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) wa=
s to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is no=
t solving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer=
. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having differen=
t syntax
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to con=
fusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to introdu=
ce a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This=
 is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also i=
s not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, b=
ut I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should ser=
iously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > _______________________________________=
________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf=
.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NG=
DwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     __________________________________________=
_____
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.or=
g>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-e=
vent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 ______________________________________________=
_
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.co=
m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mai=
l list to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list t=
o learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5=
YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7J=
PKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7Tm=
GMSWWs&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>=20
>=20

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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>+1<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 21=
, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google=
.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">


<div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most support is k=
eeping things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to def=
ine which claims they use and how they use them.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use the languag=
e below.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think this i=
s acceptable Mike.</div><div><br></div><div>I'll summarize again.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>We have two open problem to solve:</div><div>1. SETs could be=
 confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens and Access Tokens in particular).</div><=
div>2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the top level, the "sub" r=
elated "iss" is different from the SET "iss". This is not specific to any pa=
rticular profile.</div><div><br></div><div>Further, problem 1 needs a short t=
erm solution and a long term solution. The important solution for secevent i=
s the short term one.</div><div><br></div><div>Out of the above only the lon=
g term solution for problem 1 has some promising resolution (using typ or ct=
y).</div><div><br></div><div>So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant=
 to secevent is solved basically.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, if your ma=
in concern is compatibility for the logout spec (which is understandable) th=
en let's talk about that and see if we can find a solution for the two probl=
ems above with that constraint. Unfortunately I cannot see such a solution.<=
/div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_498=
127282251743230WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=93 Mike</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Phil Hu=
nt</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">Richard Backman, Annabelle</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">Marius Scurtescu</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
John Bradley</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Henk Birkholz</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Justin=
 Richer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">
Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">Mike Jones</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
ID Events Mailing List</a></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer</div></div><p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>So I understand what is being proposed is:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New">If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 to identify its subject, and the issuer of the subject is identical to the i=
ssuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level=
. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D)
 and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be cont=
ained in the event payload.</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =E2=80=9C=
ipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=
=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"</div>
<div>A SCIM resource URI of <a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1fae=
bbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
https://scim.example.com/<wbr>users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>=
c4</a> might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"<=
a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.<wbr>com/users/<wbr>a=
c1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>=E2=80=9D</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depe=
nds on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the sub=
ject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co=
llapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</=
div>
<div>@independentid</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.in=
dependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DIPOgg6e8S=
sqiBFnOCsQrY6Oh1ppDIQl_YMP2jcBlR0w&amp;s=3D2Z6KTHoFGGCV0Rp37kqovm2jeptanbYHi=
Zpx0SvIo-8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.co=
m</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cr=
emed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amaz=
on.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:nor=
mal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fair point. If=
 we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a single SET, then I=E2=
=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to the profiles.<u></u=
><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<=
u></u></span></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<=
u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<=
u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscur=
tescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</=
a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></b>"Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@v=
e7jtb.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ya=
ronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled (be=
cause of hijacking), this can lead to two events:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
1. "account-disabled"<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
2. "sessions-revoked"<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Marius<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><=
u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8p=
t;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The spec says t=
hat the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple logical events. I=
f it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from different profiles that c=
orrespond to the same
 logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetic=
al RISC logout event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves f=
or multiple events in one SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-boun=
ces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
 on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></b>John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve=
7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:he=
nk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de<=
/a>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.ed=
u</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
 Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.i=
etf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct=
 SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current backcha=
nnel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own duplicate=
 definitions and meanings.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.<u></u><=
u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators w=
e had tried to make was an assumption that user initiated events would be pa=
rt of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calculatio=
ns like password reset.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not comm=
ands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single sign o=
ut not expected.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<br></p>
On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jt=
b.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same fa=
mily that agree on top level claims.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a alte=
rnative format to JWT in some ways.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
John B.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I agree with J=
ohn that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and shou=
ld be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably not the right setti=
ng to discuss the
 former.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My concern wit=
h the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting semantics (e.g.=
 Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an e=
mail address). If these profiles
 don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, t=
hen they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap s=
eems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
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<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">John Bradley &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gm=
ail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.ed=
u" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
 Annabelle Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
 Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token c=
onfusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.&nbsp; Registering application/idt+=
jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Using the cty is also possible. &nbsp; I need to think about what is better b=
ut we can agree on a convention.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<u></u=
><u></u></div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and confusion a=
round JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the typ paramet=
er based on the existing spec.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually gets=
 you into trouble.<u></u><u></u></div>
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</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a goo=
d idea. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<u></u><=
u></u></div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for things=
 where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is scop=
ed differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not be requi=
red for all event types.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.<u=
></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
John B.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf=
@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span=
></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "sub"=
 and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) that s=
hould be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Did I miss anything?<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the SET d=
ocument before it is published.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Thanks,<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
+1 to this as well.<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988a=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtes=
cu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</s=
pan></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
+1 to what Annabelle said.<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385=
159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to a=
n IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.<u></u><u></=
u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Marius<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.=
hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</=
span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5=
pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
+1<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312Ap=
pleMailSignature">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312Ap=
pleMailSignature">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Phil<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initia=
l initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Jun 14, 20=
17, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@am=
azon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a=
>&gt;
 wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike,</span><u=
></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your explanati=
on for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements o=
f OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result, I s=
ee several issues
 with it:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:i=
nitial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"=
m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
 caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be certain that a n=
once-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes t=
he ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:i=
nitial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2.</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"=
m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Any
 future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this problem again.</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:i=
nitial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:7pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m=
-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No
 other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:i=
nitial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">4.</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:7pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m=
-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This
 is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile that cares about d=
isambiguation has to invent its own solution to the problem.</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We know from e=
xperience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both things that hap=
pen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive measure against th=
ese risks. You brought up
 JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common li=
braries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could h=
andle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each p=
rofile would require unique logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@=
google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span=
></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.c=
om</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token c=
onfusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">You=E2=80=99=
ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d char=
acterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simple complex, without
 data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mandatory s=
olutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that there=E2=80=99s n=
o evidence that we actually even have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been estab=
lished that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a
 SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span class=3D"m_4981272822=
51743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Da=
rchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlN=
Ke4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQ=
PmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>m=
sg00428.html</span></a>.&nbsp;
 If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of Ac=
cess Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so that=
 we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.=
</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The propos=
ed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously s=
imple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then
 the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is=
 that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT p=
arser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely devel=
opers are to just create their own
 data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; Stan=
dards are only useful if they are actually used.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></=
u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,=
96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span=
></b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted=
-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;=
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span class=3D"m_49=
8127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>=
On
 Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conv=
erted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conv=
erted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@=
google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span=
></a>&gt;;
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conv=
erted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-ev=
ent@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span><=
/a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token c=
onfusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Echoing Marius=
=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D=
?</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To your first q=
uestion, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a m=
ulti-valued property that declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and that=
 a recipient may
 refer to when determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in s=
ome context.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>=

<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@=
sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-ev=
ent@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span><=
/a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token c=
onfusion and distinct SET issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz=
@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5=
pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend",=
 "audience", and "scope"?<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
"aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (ac=
cess token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security eve=
nt?)<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
"scope" is not used by SET.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5=
pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></div=
>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5=
pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
Thanks for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually=
 exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this r=
equires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure=
 that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdif=
ferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by t=
he spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is ea=
sier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header para=
meter.<br>
<br>
--<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br>
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behal=
f of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, "matake, nov" &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.=
jp</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)=
" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinc=
t SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9=
.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscu=
rtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com=
</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules=
 for<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds o=
f<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.=
".<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity=
 and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gma=
il.com</span></a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>=

<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for J=
WT<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-462984256938=
5159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoa=
i115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</span></=
a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adaw=
es@google.com</span></a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was initially a fan of keeping S=
ETS to be very similar to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now think this is a=
 better plan.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM mat=
ake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@m=
atake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 especially for "t=
ype"<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT=
+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br=
>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br>=

<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distin=
guish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a=
 way that naive implementations will not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confus=
e one for the other and open up security<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vulner=
abilities.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SET is=
suer in some cases must be different from the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" i=
ssuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to an I=
dP.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; follow=
ing:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be dif=
ferent<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across=
 events in the same SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (=
this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "shoul=
d" and not "must"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 event types to define additional claims<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relate=
d to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since a=
ll these claims will be at the event level<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there w=
ill be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define=
 a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the re=
quirement for a distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having=
 the same claim name having different syntax<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in dif=
ferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claim f=
or JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; practi=
cal in the short term, and it also is not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; solvin=
g the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this i=
s something the JWT group should seriously<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; consid=
er.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Thoughts?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Marius<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt; Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initia=
l initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">I<wbr>=
d-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__w=
ww.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C=
_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ=
6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://urldefense.<wbr>proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-<wbr>3A__www.i=
etf.org_mailman_<wbr>listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;<wbr>c=3D<wbr>Ro=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<wbr>jvg=
Xzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d0mxPQFJL=
hxWI&amp;e=3D</span></a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ______=
________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-eve=
nt mailing list<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629=
842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ie=
tf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__w=
ww.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C=
_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzss=
KFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://www.ietf.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ____________________=
__________<wbr>_________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing lis=
t<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-even=
t@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-462984256938515998=
8apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@i=
etf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></=
a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKC=
X5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D=
Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4E=
Kb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_498127282251743=
230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |=
<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">ad=
awes@google.com</span></a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawe=
s@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span><=
/a>&gt; |<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">+1
 <span id=3D"gc-number-17" class=3D"gc-cs-link" title=3D"Call with Google Vo=
ice">650-214-2410</span></span></a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"tel:%28650%29%20214=
-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">tel:(650)%20214-2410</span></a>&=
gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ______________________________<wbr=
>_________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230=
m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:I=
d-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</sp=
an></a><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230=
m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo=
_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHs=
hmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7Tm=
GMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/<=
wbr>mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-462984256=
9385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoa=
i115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
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<br>
--<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><br>
<br>
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE &lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIG=
k&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Di75Uw8aehYvlpI=
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 mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9=
ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
ps://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>00Y_3zRoai=
115c&amp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuR=
IB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initia=
l initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/u=
rl?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw=
&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuR=
IB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wb=
r>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif;background-color:white">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuR=
IB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wb=
r>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Subject: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC Token Draft
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We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.  I=E2=80=99d =
like to give some examples that we can compare.

Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in =
the next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.

Thanks!

Three current draft examples:

1. A SCIM Event looks like:
> {=20
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com", =20
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>   ], =20
>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>   "events": {
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>   }
> }


2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>    {
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>       "sub": "248289761001",
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>       "jti": "bWJq",
>       "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>       "events": {
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>       }
>    }


3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
> {
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>    "events": {
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout": {
>        "sub": "248289761001",
>        "iss": "https://server.example.com=E2=80=9D,
>        "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>      }
>    }
> }


I believe the concerns here are:

Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent =
and moves around. =20
SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its =
own attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can =
redefine sub for their own purposes.  Is this good or bad?
Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing a =
SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully parse =
the entire object to determine if they are looking at structure 2 or 3.  =
IOW a lot of implementations have to always check for an embedded =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, =
should they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or =
complicate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an =
event with a localized extension that adds value without impacting =
inter-op.
=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the =
top-level. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes =
should be in the payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is =
correct?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss =
for identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This =
would exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that =
subject information is always in the payload. =20

B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object. =
Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects =
are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format =
might look something like:

{=20
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://security.example.com", =20
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
  ], =20
  "target":{
    "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
    "iss": "https://scim.example.com"
  },
  "events": {
    "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
  }
}

Here is an example modified logout=20
   {
      "iss": "https://server.example.com",
      "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
      "iat": 1471566154,
      "jti": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
      =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
        "sub": "248289761001",
        "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
      }
      "events": {
        "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
      }
   }

The above formats address the following:

* Consistent structures
* Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common =
attribute
* Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible (not =
sure if this is a plus or minus)
* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
* SET is substantially different such that existing access token and ID =
token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
* target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =
=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and =
so on.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

--Apple-Mail=_0F6D31CD-EB6B-4EC5-BEC4-80B2D4CE6FE4
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99=
d like to give some examples that we can compare.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Please add your comments. It would be =
good to reach some conclusion in the next few days if we are going to =
change the draft for Prague.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Three current draft =
examples:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. A =
SCIM Event looks like:</div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">{&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">jti</span>": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iat</span>": 1458496025,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://security.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://security.example.com</a>", &nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">aud</span>": [</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: =
11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
/div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; ], &nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "sub": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<=
/div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }</div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; }</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">}</div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">2. An OP issued =
Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:</div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;{</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com"=
 class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>",</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub": "248289761001",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline" class=3D"">aud</span>": "s6BhdRkqt3",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline" class=3D"">iat</span>": 1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline" class=3D"">jti</span>": "bWJq",</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline" class=3D"">sid</span>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "events": {</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout</a>": =
{}</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; }</div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3. An RP issued =
Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">{</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://rp.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://rp.example.com</a>",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">aud</span>": "s6BhdRkqt3",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iat</span>": 1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">jti</span>": "bWJq",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "events": {</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout</a>": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub": =
"248289761001",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>=E2=80=9D,</div></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: =
11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">sid</span>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"</div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; }</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; }</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">}</div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I believe the concerns here =
are:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D is inconsistent and moves around. &nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">SCIM =
could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its own =
attribute in the payload (introducing more variability). &nbsp;As long =
as =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can =
redefine sub for their own purposes. &nbsp;Is this good or bad?</li><li =
class=3D"">Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are =
parsing a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to =
fully parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at =
structure 2 or 3. &nbsp;IOW a lot of implementations have to always =
check for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the =
correct subject.</li><li class=3D"">A concern about the trade-offs if =
multiple event types are expressed, should they share a common top-level =
attribute. How does this improve or complicate multi-type events? =
&nbsp;In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized =
extension that adds value without impacting inter-op.</li><li =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in =
the top-level. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes =
should be in the payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is =
correct?</li></ul></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div=
><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A. &nbsp;We could =
say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss for =
identifying subjects) in the payload. &nbsp;See example 3 above. =
&nbsp;This would exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent =
that subject information is always in the payload. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">B. A new top-level =
attribute could be defined which is a JSON object. Inside the JSON =
object, profiling specs can define how their subjects are addressed. =
Let=E2=80=99s call it target. &nbsp;A new common SET format might look =
something like:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">{&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">jti</span>": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iat</span>": 1458496025,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://security.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://security.example.com</a>", &nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">aud</span>": [</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: =
11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
/div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; ], &nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<font color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D""> =
"target":{</font></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "sub": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<=
/font></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D""><font color=3D"#0433ff" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline" =
class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>"</font></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D"">&nbsp; },</font></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "events": {</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { =
}</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; }</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">}</div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Here is an example modified =
logout&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;{</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: =
11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>",</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">aud</span>": "s6BhdRkqt3",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iat</span>": =
1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jti</span>": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "sub": =
"248289761001",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">sid</span>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout</a>": =
{}</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The above formats =
address the following:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">* Consistent structures</div><div class=3D"">* Flexibility =
for profiles to target differently but using a common =
attribute</div><div class=3D"">* Multiple event types share a common =
target and must be compatible (not sure if this is a plus or =
minus)</div><div class=3D"">* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject =
issuer</div><div class=3D"">* SET is substantially different such that =
existing access token and ID token code will reject consistently =
(because sub is missing)</div><div class=3D"">* target could also have =
an attribute that indicates the target =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as =
SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and so on.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>
</div>

<br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.

The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy
across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) but it is
enforcing a single profile per SET.  As you mention, not sure if this is
good or bad.

Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot come
up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need something
along with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub" and other
right under "events"?

Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs between an email
provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "email" attribute
(or "phone_number"):
{
   "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
   "iat": 1471566154,
   "jti": "bWJq",
   "events": {
     "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled": {
       "reason": "hijacking",
       "email": "bob@example.com",
     }
   }
}





Marius

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
> in SET.  I=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can compare.
>
> Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in th=
e
> next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Three current draft examples:
>
> 1. A SCIM Event looks like:
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>   ],
>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>   "events": {
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>   }
> }
>
>
> 2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>
>    {
>
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>       "sub": "248289761001",
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>       "jti": "bWJq",
>       "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>       "events": {
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>       }
>    }
>
>
> 3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
>
> {
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>    "events": {
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout": {
>        "sub": "248289761001",
>        "iss": "https://server.example.com=E2=80=9D,
>
>        "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>
>      }
>    }
> }
>
>
> I believe the concerns here are:
>
>
>    - Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsiste=
nt and moves around.
>    - SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use i=
ts own attribute
>    in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D is valid
>    to use in SET than profiling specs can redefine sub for their own
>    purposes.  Is this good or bad?
>    - Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are
>    parsing a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to
>    fully parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at stru=
cture
>    2 or 3.  IOW a lot of implementations have to always check for an embe=
dded
>    =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
>    - A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are
>    expressed, should they share a common top-level attribute. How does th=
is
>    improve or complicate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Figu=
re 1
>    shows an event with a localized extension that adds value without impa=
cting
>    inter-op.
>    - =E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-=
level. We=E2=80=99ve
>    been discussing that additional attributes should be in the payload. I=
tem 3
>    shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss fo=
r
> identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This would
> exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that subject
> information is always in the payload.
>
> B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object.
> Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects are
> addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format might l=
ook
> something like:
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>   ],
>   "target":{
>     "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>     "iss": "https://scim.example.com"
>   },
>   "events": {
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>   }
> }
>
> Here is an example modified logout
>    {
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>       "jti": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
>       =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
>         "sub": "248289761001",
>         "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
>       }
>       "events": {
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>       }
>    }
>
> The above formats address the following:
>
> * Consistent structures
> * Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common
> attribute
> * Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible (not
> sure if this is a plus or minus)
> * No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
> * SET is substantially different such that existing access token and ID
> token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
> * target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =E2=80=9C=
type=E2=80=9D
> such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and so on.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>

--94eb2c03d38cde7cfa0552902af5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.<div><br></=
div><div>The top level &quot;target&quot; attribute is interesting, it redu=
ces redundancy across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) =
but it is enforcing a single profile per SET.=C2=A0 As you mention, not sur=
e if this is good or bad.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, not sure about the=
 name of the attribute, &quot;target&quot;, but I cannot come up with a bet=
ter name. &quot;target&quot; sounds like &quot;audience&quot;. We need some=
thing along with &quot;events subject&quot;. Maybe simply nest the &quot;is=
s&quot;, &quot;sub&quot; and other right under &quot;events&quot;?</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Here is one more example of a SET not using &quot;sub&quot=
;. SETs between an email provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC def=
ined &quot;email&quot; attribute (or &quot;phone_number&quot;):</div><div><=
div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">{</font></div><div><font face=3D"mo=
nospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://=
rp.example.com">https://rp.example.com</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&=
quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&q=
uot;iat&quot;: 1471566154,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monosp=
ace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;jti&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,</font></div><div><font=
 face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;events&quot;: {</font></d=
iv><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled">http://schema=
s.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled</a>&quot;: {</font></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;reason&qu=
ot;: &quot;hijacking&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monos=
pace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;email&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto=
:bob@example.com">bob@example.com</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D=
"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br></font></div><div><font fac=
e=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</font></div><div><font face=3D"mo=
nospace, monospace">}</font></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"=
><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Mar=
ius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">We=E2=80=99ve had a long standin=
g thread on how to handle use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D in SET.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can com=
pare.<div><br></div><div>Please add your comments. It would be good to reac=
h some conclusion in the next few days if we are going to change the draft =
for Prague.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!<br><div><br></div><div>Three c=
urrent draft examples:</div><div><br></div><div>1. A SCIM Event looks like:=
</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11p=
x;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">{=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;<spa=
n style=3D"text-decoration:underline">jti</span>&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf7=
97584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-siz=
e:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"t=
ext-decoration:underline">iat</span>&quot;: 1458496025,</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&quot;: &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://security.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://security.examp=
le.com</a>&quot;<wbr>, =C2=A0</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;=
line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-dec=
oration:underline">aud</span>&quot;: [</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-s=
ize:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>=
&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;fon=
t-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<=
wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 ], =C2=
=A0</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-fa=
mily:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.=
com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example=
.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>&quot;,</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=
 &quot;events&quot;: {</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-he=
ight:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:ev=
ent:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;: { }</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:1=
1px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 }</div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">}</div></block=
quote></div><div><div><br class=3D"m_8430301265627118124webkit-block-placeh=
older"></div><div>2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) look=
s like:</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Monaco"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:=
0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0{</d=
iv></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-siz=
e:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<s=
pan style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://server.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://server.example.com</a=
>&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;fo=
nt-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001&=
quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font=
-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:u=
nderline">aud</span>&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,</div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iat</span>&quot;: 14=
71566154,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;f=
ont-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoratio=
n:underline">jti</span>&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">sid</span>&quot;: &quot=
;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;l=
ine-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>event/backchannel-logout</a>&quot;: {}</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:M=
onaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;=
line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</div></blockquote></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (diffe=
rent issuer):</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0px;=
font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">{</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&quot;: &quot=
;<a href=3D"https://rp.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://rp.example.co=
m</a>&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:und=
erline">aud</span>&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iat</span>&quot;: 1471566154,<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family=
:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">jti</=
span>&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px=
;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family=
:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/eve=
nt/risc-logout" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>event/risc=
-logout</a>&quot;: {</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-heig=
ht:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &=
quot;248289761001&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-=
height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<span st=
yle=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//server.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://server.example.com</a>=E2=
=80=9D,</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">sid</span>&quot;:=
 &quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02&quot;</div></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height=
:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:=
Monaco">}</div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>I believe the concern=
s here are:</div><div><br></div><div><ul><li>Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D a=
nd =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent and moves around. =C2=A0</li><li>S=
CIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its own a=
ttribute in the payload (introducing more variability).=C2=A0 As long as =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can redef=
ine sub for their own purposes.=C2=A0 Is this good or bad?</li><li>Those wr=
iting parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing a SET they ne=
ed to know the role of the server OR they have to fully parse the entire ob=
ject to determine if they are looking at structure 2 or 3.=C2=A0 IOW a lot =
of implementations have to always check for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.</li><li>A concern about the t=
rade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, should they share a common=
 top-level attribute. How does this improve or complicate multi-type events=
?=C2=A0 In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized ex=
tension that adds value without impacting inter-op.</li><li>=E2=80=9Csid=E2=
=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-level. We=E2=80=99ve b=
een discussing that additional attributes should be in the payload. Item 3 =
shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?</li></ul></div><div><br></div><=
div>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div><b=
r></div><div>A.=C2=A0 We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if=
 they use iss for identifying subjects) in the payload.=C2=A0 See example 3=
 above.=C2=A0 This would exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consi=
stent that subject information is always in the payload. =C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON=
 object. Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subje=
cts are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.=C2=A0 A new common SET for=
mat might look something like:</div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">{=C2=A0</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco=
">=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">jti</span>&quot;: =
&quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iat</span>&quot;: 1458496025,<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family=
:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&=
quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://security.example.com" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://security.example.com</a>&quot;<wbr>, =C2=A0</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;<spa=
n style=3D"text-decoration:underline">aud</span>&quot;: [</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc87959=
3b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461=
fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;l=
ine-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https=
://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Mo=
naco">=C2=A0 ], =C2=A0</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-he=
ight:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0<font color=3D"#0433ff"> &quot;target=
&quot;:{</font></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:no=
rmal;font-family:Monaco"><font color=3D"#0433ff">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;sub&qu=
ot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e752=
1d9" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f6142df96=
bd6ab61e7521d9</a>&quot;,</font></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11=
px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco"><font color=3D"#0433ff">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&quot;: &q=
uot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.exa=
mple.com</a>&quot;</font></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line=
-height:normal;font-family:Monaco"><font color=3D"#0433ff">=C2=A0 },</font>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-famil=
y:Monaco">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-s=
ize:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;urn:iet=
f:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;: { }</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 }</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco=
">}</div></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;f=
ont-family:Monaco"><br></div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><span class=3D"m_8430301265627118124Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-c=
ollapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Here is an example modified logout=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;fon=
t-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0{</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11p=
x;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<s=
pan style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iss</span>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://server.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://server.example.com</a=
>&quot;,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;fo=
nt-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<span style=3D"text-decor=
ation:underline">aud</span>&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">iat</sp=
an>&quot;: 1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-he=
ight:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<span style=
=3D"text-decoration:underline">jti</span>&quot;: &quot;bWJq=E2=80=9D,</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Mona=
co">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{</div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001&quot;,</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">s=
id</span>&quot;: &quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:=
Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px=
;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;eve=
nts&quot;: {</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"htt=
p://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout" target=3D"_blank">http://s=
chemas.openid.net/<wbr>event/backchannel-logout</a>&quot;: {}</div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0}</div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-=
height:normal;font-family:Monaco">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</div></div></div><div=
><br></div><div>The above formats address the following:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>* Consistent structures</div><div>* Flexibility for profiles to targ=
et differently but using a common attribute</div><div>* Multiple event type=
s share a common target and must be compatible (not sure if this is a plus =
or minus)</div><div>* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer</div>=
<div>* SET is substantially different such that existing access token and I=
D token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)</div><div>* =
target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =E2=80=9Ctype=
=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and so on.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity=
 Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div>@independentid</div><di=
v><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independen=
tid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

<br></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC Token Draft
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Agreed to all your comments.  And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not =
the best name.  Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the moment.

Thanks for the additional example. =20

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.
>=20
> The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy =
across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) but it is =
enforcing a single profile per SET.  As you mention, not sure if this is =
good or bad.
>=20
> Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot =
come up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need =
something along with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", =
"sub" and other right under "events"?
>=20
> Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs between an =
email provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "email" =
attribute (or "phone_number"):
> {
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com <https://rp.example.com/>",
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>    "events": {
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
event_risc__account-2Ddisabled&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-=
HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DbZx_nhaRe7CCaR1Y0EIipxH8RqWCWDoB=
O4_mfvmfyEU&e=3D>": {
>        "reason": "hijacking",
>        "email": "bob@example.com <mailto:bob@example.com>",
>      }
>    }
> }
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.  I=E2=80=99d =
like to give some examples that we can compare.
>=20
> Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in =
the next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Three current draft examples:
>=20
> 1. A SCIM Event looks like:
>> {=20
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://security.example.com =
<https://security.example.com/>", =20
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>   ], =20
>>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9>",
>>   "events": {
>>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>>   }
>> }
>=20
>=20
> 2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>>    {
>>       "iss": "https://server.example.com =
<https://server.example.com/>",
>>       "sub": "248289761001",
>>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>       "iat": 1471566154,
>>       "jti": "bWJq",
>>       "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>>       "events": {
>>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
event_backchannel-2Dlogout&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjM=
iu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27=
P2dXoBQ&e=3D>": {}
>>       }
>>    }
>=20
>=20
> 3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
>> {
>>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com <https://rp.example.com/>",
>>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>    "iat": 1471566154,
>>    "jti": "bWJq",
>>    "events": {
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
event_risc-2Dlogout&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-=
Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DBzVN38xROsCs1SvZlBnTmxxBVq0Lh_ps97P5cYE7qX4=
&e=3D>": {
>>        "sub": "248289761001",
>>        "iss": "https://server.example.com =
<https://server.example.com/>=E2=80=9D,
>>        "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>      }
>>    }
>> }
>=20
>=20
> I believe the concerns here are:
>=20
> Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent =
and moves around. =20
> SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its =
own attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can =
redefine sub for their own purposes.  Is this good or bad?
> Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing =
a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully =
parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at structure 2 =
or 3.  IOW a lot of implementations have to always check for an embedded =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
> A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, =
should they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or =
complicate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an =
event with a localized extension that adds value without impacting =
inter-op.
> =E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the =
top-level. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes =
should be in the payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is =
correct?
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss =
for identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This =
would exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that =
subject information is always in the payload. =20
>=20
> B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object. =
Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects =
are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format =
might look something like:
>=20
> {=20
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com =
<https://security.example.com/>", =20
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>   ], =20
>   "target":{
>     "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9>",
>     "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>"
>   },
>   "events": {
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>   }
> }
>=20
> Here is an example modified logout=20
>    {
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com =
<https://server.example.com/>",
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>       "jti": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
>       =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
>         "sub": "248289761001",
>         "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
>       }
>       "events": {
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
event_backchannel-2Dlogout&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjM=
iu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27=
P2dXoBQ&e=3D>": {}
>       }
>    }
>=20
> The above formats address the following:
>=20
> * Consistent structures
> * Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common =
attribute
> * Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible =
(not sure if this is a plus or minus)
> * No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
> * SET is substantially different such that existing access token and =
ID token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
> * target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =
=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and =
so on.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8=
dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DVOv1b-76jbGOvpEGO_O-K9g1hDpBzM3wQkPtLKPaSVQ&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66=
Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3Dq5FKGtE3iGS4X-y8K6yth4An24cPZyVXpNNdMPA8=
rwU&e=3D>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Agreed to all your comments. &nbsp;And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=
=9D is not the best name. &nbsp;Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the =
moment.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for =
the additional example. &nbsp;<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The top level "target" =
attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy across events (when =
multiple events are present in one SET) but it is enforcing a single =
profile per SET.&nbsp; As you mention, not sure if this is good or =
bad.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, not =
sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot come up =
with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need something =
along with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub" and =
other right under "events"?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs =
between an email provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined =
"email" attribute (or "phone_number"):</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" =
class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://rp.example.com/" =
class=3D"">https://rp.example.com</a>",</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"monospace, monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"aud": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"iat": 1471566154,</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;"jti": "bWJq",</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"events": {</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_event_risc__account-2Ddisabled&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DbZx_n=
haRe7CCaR1Y0EIipxH8RqWCWDoBO4_mfvmfyEU&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled</a>": =
{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"reason": =
"hijacking",</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"email": "<a =
href=3D"mailto:bob@example.com" =
class=3D"">bob@example.com</a>",</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"monospace, monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}<br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;}</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"monospace, monospace" class=3D"">}</font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D"">We=E2=80=99ve had a long =
standing thread on how to handle use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d like to give some =
examples that we can compare.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some =
conclusion in the next few days if we are going to change the draft for =
Prague.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Three current draft examples:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. A SCIM Event looks like:</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">{&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jti</span>": "<wbr =
class=3D"">3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr class=3D"">30",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iat</span>": =
1458496025,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://security.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://security.example.com</a>"<wbr class=3D"">, =
&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">aud</span>": =
[</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">Feeds/<wbr class=3D"">98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">Feeds/<wbr class=3D"">5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>], &nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">Users/<wbr class=3D"">44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",</div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<=
wbr class=3D"">passwordReset": { }</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">}</div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_8430301265627118124webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div =
class=3D"">2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks =
like:</div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;{</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://server.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>",</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub": =
"248289761001",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">aud</span>": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iat</span>": =
1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jti</span>": =
"bWJq",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">sid</span>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr class=3D"">65a12843ea02",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_event_backchannel-2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DRgQwH23s5=
wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2dXoBQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr =
class=3D"">event/backchannel-logout</a>": {}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div></blockquote></div><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3. An RP issued =
Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">{</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://rp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://rp.example.com</a>",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">aud</span>": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iat</span>": =
1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jti</span>": =
"bWJq",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_event_risc-2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx=
BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&am=
p;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DBzVN38xROsCs1SvZ=
lBnTmxxBVq0Lh_ps97P5cYE7qX4&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr =
class=3D"">event/risc-logout</a>": {</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub": =
"248289761001",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://server.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>=E2=80=9D,</div></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: =
11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">sid</span>": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr =
class=3D"">65a12843ea02"</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">}</div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I believe the concerns here =
are:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D is inconsistent and moves around. &nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">SCIM =
could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its own =
attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).&nbsp; As long =
as =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can =
redefine sub for their own purposes.&nbsp; Is this good or bad?</li><li =
class=3D"">Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are =
parsing a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to =
fully parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at =
structure 2 or 3.&nbsp; IOW a lot of implementations have to always =
check for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the =
correct subject.</li><li class=3D"">A concern about the trade-offs if =
multiple event types are expressed, should they share a common top-level =
attribute. How does this improve or complicate multi-type events?&nbsp; =
In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized =
extension that adds value without impacting inter-op.</li><li =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in =
the top-level. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes =
should be in the payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is =
correct?</li></ul></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div=
><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A.&nbsp; We could =
say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss for =
identifying subjects) in the payload.&nbsp; See example 3 above.&nbsp; =
This would exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that =
subject information is always in the payload. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">B. A new top-level =
attribute could be defined which is a JSON object. Inside the JSON =
object, profiling specs can define how their subjects are addressed. =
Let=E2=80=99s call it target.&nbsp; A new common SET format might look =
something like:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">{&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jti</span>": "<wbr =
class=3D"">3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr class=3D"">30",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iat</span>": =
1458496025,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://security.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://security.example.com</a>"<wbr class=3D"">, =
&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">aud</span>": =
[</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">Feeds/<wbr class=3D"">98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">Feeds/<wbr class=3D"">5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>], &nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<font color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"target":{</font></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D""><font color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">Users/<wbr =
class=3D"">44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",</font></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D""><font color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>"</font></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#0433ff" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>},</font></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<=
wbr class=3D"">passwordReset": { }</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">}</div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m_8430301265627118124Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Here is an example modified =
logout&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;{</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: =
11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">iss</span>": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>",</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span =
style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">aud</span>": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">iat</span>": 1471566154,</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">jti</span>": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub": =
"248289761001",</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">sid</span>": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr =
class=3D"">65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"events": {</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Monaco;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_event_backchannel-2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DRgQwH23s5=
wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2dXoBQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr =
class=3D"">event/backchannel-logout</a>": {}</div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-family: Monaco;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</div></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The above formats address the =
following:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">* =
Consistent structures</div><div class=3D"">* Flexibility for profiles to =
target differently but using a common attribute</div><div class=3D"">* =
Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible (not =
sure if this is a plus or minus)</div><div class=3D"">* No conflict =
around SET issuer vs subject issuer</div><div class=3D"">* SET is =
substantially different such that existing access token and ID token =
code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)</div><div =
class=3D"">* target could also have an attribute that indicates the =
target =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, =
IPaddress, and so on.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; =
Standards</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMi=
u66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DVOv1b-76jbGOvpEGO_O-K9g1hDpBzM3wQ=
kPtLKPaSVQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div><br class=3D""></div></div></div><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3Dq5FKGtE3iGS4X=
-y8K6yth4An24cPZyVXpNNdMPA8rwU&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/id-event</a></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC Token Draft
Thread-Index: AQHS63m2mfqqQ9kkEEyBgFDpAXlpc6IxKfYAgAABXACAABuHIA==
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 19:45:14 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/9UgZDu6XNB8OeDsYiBDnhPA9p-U>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC Token Draft
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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From: Benjamin Kaduk <bkaduk@akamai.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/lKSIKUOLSPJD482KN1bro5cNFPI>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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A very abstract concern I would have is that if you have some entity
issuing SETs assuming one profile, how is it ensured that everything
consuming those SETs interpret it using the same profile?  I know there
are a lot of things deployed out there in the greater OAuth world that
use out-of-band agreements between participants, but maybe we want to
move away from that sort of thing.

-Ben

On 06/21/2017 07:25 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) wrote:
> +1
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Mike Jones
>> <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping
>>     things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to
>>     define which claims they use and how they use them.
>>
>>      
>>
>>     It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>>
>>
>> I don't think this is acceptable Mike.
>>
>> I'll summarize again.
>>
>> We have two open problem to solve:
>> 1. SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens and Access Tokens
>> in particular).
>> 2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the top level, the
>> "sub" related "iss" is different from the SET "iss". This is not
>> specific to any particular profile.
>>
>> Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and a long term
>> solution. The important solution for secevent is the short term one.
>>
>> Out of the above only the long term solution for problem 1 has some
>> promising resolution (using typ or cty).
>>
>> So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to secevent is solved
>> basically.
>>
>> Again, if your main concern is compatibility for the logout spec
>> (which is understandable) then let's talk about that and see if we
>> can find a solution for the two problems above with that constraint.
>> Unfortunately I cannot see such a solution.
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>      
>>
>>     – Mike
>>
>>     *From: *Phil Hunt <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>     *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
>>     *To: *Richard Backman, Annabelle <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>
>>     *Cc: *Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>; John
>>     Bradley <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz
>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer
>>     <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer
>>     <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Mike Jones
>>     <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List
>>     <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>>
>>
>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion
>>     and distinct SET issuer
>>
>>      
>>
>>     So I understand what is being proposed is:
>>
>>     If the event type uses “sub” to identify its subject, and the
>>     issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event,
>>     then “sub” may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject
>>     of an event (e.g. “sub”) and any other claims required to
>>     uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event payload.
>>
>>     For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a
>>     “ipaddress” claim defined in the event payload. “ipaddress”:”1.2.3.4"
>>     A SCIM resource URI of
>>     https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4
>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scim.example.com_users_ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=sssDLkeEEBWNIXmTsdpw8TZ3tAJx-Job4p1unc7rOhM&m=uqeXpbQbQPtc33ymleIRlveZPtHm9r9wqoWNP2zG0K4&s=97MbuduWH8BZWdttvVR0bSUjrtRvHpoKtfJ_1u6MiU4&e=>
>>     might be identified in the event payload as:
>>     “sub”:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4
>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scim.example.com_users_ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=sssDLkeEEBWNIXmTsdpw8TZ3tAJx-Job4p1unc7rOhM&m=uqeXpbQbQPtc33ymleIRlveZPtHm9r9wqoWNP2zG0K4&s=97MbuduWH8BZWdttvVR0bSUjrtRvHpoKtfJ_1u6MiU4&e=>”
>>
>>     A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim
>>     and depends on “iss” being the same for the event issuer AND the
>>     subject. This means that no party may issue logout events on
>>     behalf of the OP.
>>
>>
>>     Phil
>>
>>     Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>     @independentid
>>     www.independentid.com
>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=IPOgg6e8SsqiBFnOCsQrY6Oh1ppDIQl_YMP2jcBlR0w&s=2Z6KTHoFGGCV0Rp37kqovm2jeptanbYHiZpx0SvIo-8&e=>
>>     phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>>>     On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles
>>>     within a single SET, then I’m less concerned about leaving sub
>>>     semantics up to the profiles.
>>>      
>>>     -- 
>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>     Identity Services
>>>      
>>>      
>>>     *From: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>     *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
>>>     *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com
>>>     <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>>>     *Cc: *"Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>     <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com
>>>     <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>, Henk Birkholz
>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer
>>>     <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Yaron Sheffer
>>>     <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael
>>>     Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>     <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List
>>>     <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion
>>>     and distinct SET issuer
>>>      
>>>     Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is
>>>     disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
>>>     1. "account-disabled"
>>>     2. "sessions-revoked"
>>>
>>>     Marius
>>>      
>>>     On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>     The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to
>>>>     express multiple logical events. If it’s also not used to
>>>>     express events from different profiles that correspond to the
>>>>     same logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event
>>>>     alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), then I’m not sure
>>>>     what use case that leaves for multiple events in one SET.
>>>>      
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>     Identity Services
>>>>      
>>>>      
>>>>     *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
>>>>     (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>     *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
>>>>     *To: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>>>     *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com
>>>>     <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Henk Birkholz
>>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer
>>>>     <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>     <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Yaron
>>>>     Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>,
>>>>     Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>>     <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List
>>>>     <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>
>>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>>     confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>      
>>>>     Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the
>>>>     current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested
>>>>     risc define its own duplicate definitions and meanings. 
>>>>      
>>>>     That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in
>>>>     practice.
>>>>      
>>>>     Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the
>>>>     differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that
>>>>     user initiated events would be part of connect. Risk would
>>>>     cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like
>>>>     password reset. 
>>>>      
>>>>     There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These
>>>>     are not commands but notification that a resource session is
>>>>     cancelled. IOW single sign out not expected. 
>>>>
>>>>     Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com
>>>>     <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>>>>>     I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages
>>>>>     form the same family that agree on top level claims.
>>>>>      
>>>>>     Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really
>>>>>     defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>>>>>      
>>>>>     John B.
>>>>>      
>>>>>>     On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the
>>>>>>     SET sub problem can and should be discussed separately. The
>>>>>>     secevents WG is probably not the right setting to discuss the
>>>>>>     former.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may
>>>>>>     dictate conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it’s a
>>>>>>     phone number, Profile B says it’s an email address). If these
>>>>>>     profiles don’t provide an alternate way to declare subject of
>>>>>>     their events, then they cannot be present within the same
>>>>>>     token. This incompatibility trap seems like something that
>>>>>>     could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>     Identity Services
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     *From: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com
>>>>>>     <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>>>>>     *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>>>>>>     *To: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>     <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>     *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu
>>>>>>     <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>>>     <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>,
>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com
>>>>>>     <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Phil Hunt
>>>>>>     <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael
>>>>>>     Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>>>>     <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List
>>>>>>     <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz
>>>>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>>>>     confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering
>>>>>>     application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name
>>>>>>     sufix.  
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what
>>>>>>     is better but we can agree on a convention.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS
>>>>>>     is a JWT.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions
>>>>>>     and confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should
>>>>>>     just start using the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     In general content sniffing if there is more than one option
>>>>>>     eventually gets you into trouble.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top
>>>>>>     level is a good idea.  
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and
>>>>>>     id_tokens.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET
>>>>>>     JWT for things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the
>>>>>>     token.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where
>>>>>>     the sub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is
>>>>>>     fine, but should not be required for all event types.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from
>>>>>>     the sub issue.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>     John B.
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>     On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer
>>>>>>>     <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>     So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>>>>>>     Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific
>>>>>>>     rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>>>>>>     Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type"
>>>>>>>     is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>>>>>>     Did I miss anything?
>>>>>>>     By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also
>>>>>>>     use it in the SET document before it is published.
>>>>>>>     Thanks,
>>>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>     On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>>>     +1 to this as well. 
>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>      — Justin
>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>     On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>>     <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>     +1 to what Annabelle said. 
>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>     Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs
>>>>>>>>>     to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top
>>>>>>>>>     level is broken in this case.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>     On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>     <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>     +1
>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>     Phil
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>     Mike,
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is
>>>>>>>>>>>     dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID
>>>>>>>>>>>     Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a
>>>>>>>>>>>     result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>     party that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is
>>>>>>>>>>>     really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes the
>>>>>>>>>>>     ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs
>>>>>>>>>>>     to solve this problem again.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce”
>>>>>>>>>>>     claim.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every
>>>>>>>>>>>     other JWT profile that cares about disambiguation has to
>>>>>>>>>>>     invent its own solution to the problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     We know from experience that naming collisions and
>>>>>>>>>>>     replay attacks are both things that happen. What’s being
>>>>>>>>>>>     proposed is a simple, defensive measure against these
>>>>>>>>>>>     risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
>>>>>>>>>>>     actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>     parsing. A “usage-aware” JWT library could handle
>>>>>>>>>>>     disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the
>>>>>>>>>>>     status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>     Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>     Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>     <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>     Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>>>>>>>>>     confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     You’ve heard of “premature optimization”.  I’d
>>>>>>>>>>>     characterize the proposals in this thread as “premature
>>>>>>>>>>>     pessimation” – making things that can and should be
>>>>>>>>>>>     simple complex, without data showing there’s any need to
>>>>>>>>>>>     do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to
>>>>>>>>>>>     problems that there’s no evidence that we actually even
>>>>>>>>>>>     have.  It’s already been established that it’s
>>>>>>>>>>>     impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token –
>>>>>>>>>>>     see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=eKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=>. 
>>>>>>>>>>>     If people have data showing that this is possible with
>>>>>>>>>>>     specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>     deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can
>>>>>>>>>>>     use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices
>>>>>>>>>>>     on our part.
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     The proposed “solutions”, such as prohibiting the use of
>>>>>>>>>>>     “sub” in the normal way, or requiring a type claim,
>>>>>>>>>>>     would make previously simple things unnecessarily
>>>>>>>>>>>     complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
>>>>>>>>>>>     normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom
>>>>>>>>>>>     parsing code would have to be used, rather than a
>>>>>>>>>>>     standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to
>>>>>>>>>>>     use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create
>>>>>>>>>>>     their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key
>>>>>>>>>>>     to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are
>>>>>>>>>>>     actually used.
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>                                                     -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>     Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz
>>>>>>>>>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>>>>>>>>>     confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     Echoing Marius’s question: can you explain what you mean
>>>>>>>>>>>     by “intend”?
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     To your first question, I think a better analogy would
>>>>>>>>>>>     be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued
>>>>>>>>>>>     property that declares the intended purpose of the JWT,
>>>>>>>>>>>     and that a recipient may refer to when determining
>>>>>>>>>>>     whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some
>>>>>>>>>>>     context.
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>     Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>     Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>     *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>>>>>>>>>     confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz
>>>>>>>>>>>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>     And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>     covered via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>     the intended usage (access token to authorize resource
>>>>>>>>>>>     access or SET to communicate a security event?)
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ·We can’t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     parameters, and enforcing this requires a “fail on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     unrecognized claim” approach to ensure that JWTs from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     some future spec can’t be mistaken for JWTs from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     current spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ·It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the “different keys for different kinds of JWTs” rule.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ignore this because managing one key is easier than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ·Ditto for “aud” and “iss” claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     +1 for a “type” or “usage” claim/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, nov"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     what should be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Confusion" and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Validation Rules for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     different sets of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         required claims...", "Use different keys for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     different kinds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds of JWTs.".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         I still think that a "type" claim would bring a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     lot of clarity and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         safety.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             http://self-issued.info/?p=1690
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be very similar to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 id tokens but I now think this is a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     plan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 <mailto:nov@matake.jp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         +1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Marius Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > There were a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     proposals on how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         distinguish SETs from Id Tokens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and Access Tokens in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         such a way that naive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     implementations will not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         confuse one for the other and open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     up security
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > There is also another important
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     requirement: the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         SET issuer in some cases must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     different from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         "sub" issuer. This is the case of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     an RP sending SETs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > With these requirements in mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I propose the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > - both "sub" and "iss" to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     defined at the event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > - "iss" at event level and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     top SET level can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > - "iss" and "sub" at event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     level can be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > - "sub" should NOT be present
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at the top SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         level (this solves the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     disambiguation), please note
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > This solution also allows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     different profiles that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         define event types to define
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     additional claims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         related to sub (like email or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     phone_number) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         since all these claims will be at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the event level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         there will be no collisions or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > Another proposal (which I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     supported) was to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         define a composite "aud" claim.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     This is not solving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         the requirement for a distinct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     SET issuer. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         having the same claim name having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     different syntax
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         in different token types could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     lead to confusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > And yet another proposal was to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     introduce a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         claim for JWTs that defines a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "type". This is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         practical in the short term, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     it also is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         solving the distinct issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     requirement, but I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         this is something the JWT group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     should seriously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         consider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          > Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                          >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                        
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     |adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 <mailto:adawes@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 650-214-2410
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 <tel:(650)%20214-2410
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <http://hardtware.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__hardtware.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=i75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mail list to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__hardtware.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=i75Uw8aehYvlpIZNL7NxqGxhh1TOrQOUX2XMYBerV80&e=>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=
>>>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>>>>      
>>>>>      
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>      
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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    <tt>A very abstract concern I would have is that if you have some
      entity issuing SETs assuming one profile, how is it ensured that
      everything consuming those SETs interpret it using the same
      profile?  I know there are a lot of things deployed out there in
      the greater OAuth world that use out-of-band agreements between
      participants, but maybe we want to move away from that sort of
      thing.<br>
      <br>
      -Ben<br>
    </tt><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/21/2017 07:25 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:618AD3DC-778F-4C8F-B60A-92F5BDCB14F2@oracle.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div>+1<br>
        <br>
        Phil</div>
      <div><br>
        On Jun 21, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
          href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div class="gmail_extra">
              <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM,
                Mike Jones <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                    href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                    target="_blank" class="cremed"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span>
                wrote:<br>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                    <div class="m_498127282251743230WordSection1">
                      <p class="MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe
                        has the most support is keeping things as they
                        are, leaving it up to profiles and applications
                        to define which claims they use and how they use
                        them.</p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">It would be fine for some
                        profiles to use the language below.</p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>I don't think this is acceptable Mike.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>I'll summarize again.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>We have two open problem to solve:</div>
                <div>1. SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens
                  and Access Tokens in particular).</div>
                <div>2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the
                  top level, the "sub" related "iss" is different from
                  the SET "iss". This is not specific to any particular
                  profile.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and
                  a long term solution. The important solution for
                  secevent is the short term one.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Out of the above only the long term solution for
                  problem 1 has some promising resolution (using typ or
                  cty).</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to
                  secevent is solved basically.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Again, if your main concern is compatibility for
                  the logout spec (which is understandable) then let's
                  talk about that and see if we can find a solution for
                  the two problems above with that constraint.
                  Unfortunately I cannot see such a solution.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div> </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                    <div class="m_498127282251743230WordSection1">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">– Mike</p>
                      <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
                        1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a
                            href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Phil Hunt</a><br>
                          <b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
                          <b>To: </b><a
                            href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Richard Backman,
                            Annabelle</a><br>
                          <b>Cc: </b><a
                            href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Marius Scurtescu</a>;
                          <a href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">
                            John Bradley</a>; <a
                            href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Henk Birkholz</a>;
                          <a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Justin Richer</a>; <a
                            href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">
                            Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a
                            href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Mike Jones</a>; <a
                            href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" class="cremed"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">
                            ID Events Mailing List</a></p>
                        <div>
                          <div class="h5"><br>
                            <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for
                            Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET
                            issuer</div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div class="h5">
                        <div>
                          <div>So I understand what is being proposed
                            is:</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div><font face="Courier New">If the event
                              type uses “sub” to identify its subject,
                              and the issuer of the subject is identical
                              to the issuer for the event, then “sub”
                              may be used at the top level. Otherwise,
                              the subject of an event (e.g. “sub”) and
                              any other claims required to uniquely
                              identify the subject MUST be contained in
                              the event payload.</font></div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4
                            might be represented in a “ipaddress” claim
                            defined in the event payload.
                            “ipaddress”:”1.2.3.4"</div>
                          <div>A SCIM resource URI of <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scim.example.com_users_ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4&amp;d=DwMFaQ&amp;c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&amp;r=sssDLkeEEBWNIXmTsdpw8TZ3tAJx-Job4p1unc7rOhM&amp;m=uqeXpbQbQPtc33ymleIRlveZPtHm9r9wqoWNP2zG0K4&amp;s=97MbuduWH8BZWdttvVR0bSUjrtRvHpoKtfJ_1u6MiU4&amp;e="
                              target="_blank" class="cremed"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">
                              https://scim.example.com/<wbr>users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>
                            might be identified in the event payload as:
                            “sub”:"<a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scim.example.com_users_ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4&amp;d=DwMFaQ&amp;c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&amp;r=sssDLkeEEBWNIXmTsdpw8TZ3tAJx-Job4p1unc7rOhM&amp;m=uqeXpbQbQPtc33ymleIRlveZPtHm9r9wqoWNP2zG0K4&amp;s=97MbuduWH8BZWdttvVR0bSUjrtRvHpoKtfJ_1u6MiU4&amp;e="
                              target="_blank" class="cremed"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">https://scim.example.<wbr>com/users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>”</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>A Connect Logout event from an OP uses
                            the top level sub claim and depends on “iss”
                            being the same for the event issuer AND the
                            subject. This means that no party may issue
                            logout events on behalf of the OP.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                  <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                    <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                      <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                        <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                          <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                            <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                              <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                  <div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                    <div><span
                                                        class="m_498127282251743230Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                        <div
                                                          style="word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Phil</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independentid</div>
                                                          <div><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=DwMFaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=IPOgg6e8SsqiBFnOCsQrY6Oh1ppDIQl_YMP2jcBlR0w&amp;s=2Z6KTHoFGGCV0Rp37kqovm2jeptanbYHiZpx0SvIo-8&amp;e="
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </span><a
                                                        href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                                        target="_blank"
                                                        class="cremed"
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <div>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div>On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM,
                                  Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                    target="_blank" class="cremed"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</div>
                                <br
                                  class="m_498127282251743230Apple-interchange-newline">
                                <div>
                                  <div
                                    class="m_498127282251743230WordSection1"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
                                    <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span
                                        style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fair
                                        point. If we do not intend to
                                        support multiple profiles within
                                        a single SET, then I’m less
                                        concerned about leaving sub
                                        semantics up to the profiles.</span></div>
                                    <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span
                                        style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        -- </div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        Annabelle Richard Backman</div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        Identity Services</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span
                                        style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                    <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span
                                        style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                    <div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                      0in 0in">
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        <b><span
                                            style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span
class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                          <b>Date:<span
                                              class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday,
                                          June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br>
                                          <b>To:<span
                                              class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Richard
                                          Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                          <b>Cc:<span
                                              class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Phil
                                          Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                                          John Bradley &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,
                                          Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
                                          Justin Richer &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                          Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                                          Michael Jones &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                          ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                          <b>Subject:<span
                                              class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
                                          [Id-event] solution for
                                          Id/Access Token confusion and
                                          distinct SET issuer</span></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                         </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        Example for multiple events
                                        within same profile: IdP account
                                        is disabled (because of
                                        hijacking), this can lead to two
                                        events:</div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                          New Roman',serif">
                                          1. "account-disabled"</div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                          New Roman',serif">
                                          2. "sessions-revoked"</div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        <br clear="all">
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                            New Roman',serif">
                                            Marius</div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                         </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style="margin:0in 0in
                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                          New Roman',serif">
                                          On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54
                                          PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
                                          &lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                            class="cremed"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                          wrote:</div>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="border-style:none none
                                          none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
                                          0in 0in
                                          6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"
                                          type="cite">
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span
                                                  style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
                                                  spec says that the
                                                  events claim SHOULD
                                                  NOT be used to express
                                                  multiple logical
                                                  events. If it’s also
                                                  not used to express
                                                  events from different
                                                  profiles that
                                                  correspond to the same
                                                  logical event (e.g. an
                                                  OIDC backchannel
                                                  logout event alongside
                                                  a hypothetical RISC
                                                  logout event), then
                                                  I’m not sure what use
                                                  case that leaves for
                                                  multiple events in one
                                                  SET.</span></div>
                                              <div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span
                                                  style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div style="margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  -- </div>
                                                <div style="margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  Annabelle Richard
                                                  Backman</div>
                                                <div style="margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  Identity Services</div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span
                                                  style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                              <div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span
                                                  style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                              <div
                                                style="border-style:solid
                                                none
                                                none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                                0in 0in">
                                                <div style="margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  <b><span
                                                      style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span
class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                    on behalf of "Phil
                                                    Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Date:<span
                                                        class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday,
                                                    June 21, 2017 at
                                                    2:12 PM<br>
                                                    <b>To:<span
                                                        class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
                                                    Bradley &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Cc:<span
                                                        class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Richard
                                                    Backman, Annabelle"
                                                    &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                                      style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
                                                    Justin Richer &lt;<a
href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
                                                      style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                                    Marius Scurtescu
                                                    &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a
href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                                                      style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Michael Jones &lt;<a
href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                                                      style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    ID Events Mailing
                                                    List &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      <br>
                                                      <b>Subject:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
                                                      [Id-event]
                                                      solution for
                                                      Id/Access Token
                                                      confusion and
                                                      distinct SET
                                                      issuer</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                       </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      Separate or
                                                      combined may be
                                                      evolving. Mike
                                                      wants to keep the
                                                      current
                                                      backchannel logout
                                                      very narrowly
                                                      scoped. He
                                                      suggested risc
                                                      define its own
                                                      duplicate
                                                      definitions and
                                                      meanings. </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                       </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
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                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      That leads me to
                                                      believe we will
                                                      have multi-type
                                                      events in
                                                      practice.</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                       </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      Session
                                                      cancellation can
                                                      occur for many
                                                      reasons. One of
                                                      the
                                                      differentiators we
                                                      had tried to make
                                                      was an assumption
                                                      that user
                                                      initiated events
                                                      would be part of
                                                      connect. Risk
                                                      would cover
                                                      variations that
                                                      drive off of risk
                                                      calculations like
                                                      password reset. </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                       </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      There are also
                                                      signout events at
                                                      rp's to let the OP
                                                      know. These are
                                                      not commands but
                                                      notification that
                                                      a resource session
                                                      is cancelled. IOW
                                                      single sign out
                                                      not expected. </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div
                                                      style="margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      <br>
                                                      Phil</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                      style="margin:0in
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                                                      12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      <br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    On Jun 21, 2017, at
                                                    1:58 PM, John
                                                    Bradley &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                      class="cremed"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;
                                                    wrote:
                                                  </div>
                                                  <blockquote
                                                    style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
                                                    type="cite">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div
                                                        style="margin:0in
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                                                        New
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                                                        I thought we
                                                        decided that we
                                                        are only
                                                        allowing set
                                                        messages form
                                                        the same family
                                                        that agree on
                                                        top level
                                                        claims.</div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                           </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          Otherwise
                                                          there can be
                                                          no top level
                                                          claims and we
                                                          are really
                                                          defining a
                                                          alternative
                                                          format to JWT
                                                          in some ways.</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                           </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          John B.</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                           </div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
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                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          On Jun 21,
                                                          2017, at 3:54
                                                          PM, Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle &lt;<a
href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                           </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
                                                          agree with
                                                          John that the
                                                          JWT type
                                                          confusion
                                                          problem and
                                                          the SET sub
                                                          problem can
                                                          and should be
                                                          discussed
                                                          separately.
                                                          The secevents
                                                          WG is probably
                                                          not the right
                                                          setting to
                                                          discuss the
                                                          former.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My
                                                          concern with
                                                          the sub claim
                                                          is that two
                                                          profiles may
                                                          dictate
                                                          conflicting
                                                          semantics
                                                          (e.g. Profile
                                                          A says it’s a
                                                          phone number,
                                                          Profile B says
                                                          it’s an email
                                                          address). If
                                                          these profiles
                                                          don’t provide
                                                          an alternate
                                                          way to declare
                                                          subject of
                                                          their events,
                                                          then they
                                                          cannot be
                                                          present within
                                                          the same
                                                          token. This
                                                          incompatibility
                                                          trap seems
                                                          like something
                                                          that could be
                                                          easily missed
                                                          by groups
                                                          profiling SET.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          -- </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Identity
                                                          Services</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <b><span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">John Bradley &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday,
                                                          June 21, 2017
                                                          at 1:39 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Yaron
                                                          Sheffer &lt;<a
href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Justin
                                                          Richer &lt;<a
href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard &lt;<a
href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                                          Phil Hunt &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                                                          Michael Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          In the
                                                          envelope typ
                                                          is a
                                                          media/mime
                                                          type. 
                                                          Registering
                                                          application/idt+jwt
                                                          if we register
                                                          jwt as a
                                                          structured
                                                          name sufix.  </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          Using the cty
                                                          is also
                                                          possible.   I
                                                          need to think
                                                          about what is
                                                          better but we
                                                          can agree on a
                                                          convention.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Not everything
                                                          is going to be
                                                          a set token
                                                          like not every
                                                          JWS is a JWT.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          If we are
                                                          going to
                                                          define
                                                          processing
                                                          rules to stop
                                                          collisions and
                                                          confusion
                                                          around JWT for
                                                          different
                                                          purposes, we
                                                          should just
                                                          start using
                                                          the typ
                                                          parameter
                                                          based on the
                                                          existing spec.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          In general
                                                          content
                                                          sniffing if
                                                          there is more
                                                          than one
                                                          option
                                                          eventually
                                                          gets you into
                                                          trouble.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          I am not
                                                          convinced that
                                                          forcing there
                                                          to be no sub
                                                          at the top
                                                          level is a
                                                          good idea.  </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          It is not the
                                                          way we should
                                                          differentiate
                                                          between SET
                                                          and id_tokens.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          If sub is not
                                                          allowed at the
                                                          top level
                                                          people will do
                                                          non SET JWT
                                                          for things
                                                          where the
                                                          subject is
                                                          scoped to the
                                                          iss of the
                                                          token.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          I think
                                                          defining sub
                                                          to be part of
                                                          the event for
                                                          cases where
                                                          the sub is
                                                          scoped
                                                          differently
                                                          from the
                                                          issuer of the
                                                          token is fine,
                                                          but should not
                                                          be required
                                                          for all event
                                                          types.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          I think we
                                                          should solve
                                                          the confusion
                                                          issue
                                                          separately
                                                          from the sub
                                                          issue.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Sorry I am at
                                                          CIS so trying
                                                          to catch up on
                                                          lists.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          John B.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          On Jun 17,
                                                          2017, at 3:45
                                                          PM, Yaron
                                                          Sheffer &lt;<a
href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          So to
                                                          summarize what
                                                          I'm seeing on
                                                          this thread:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Everybody
                                                          agrees with
                                                          Marius's
                                                          short-term
                                                          solution,
                                                          specific rules
                                                          for "sub" and
                                                          "iss" that can
                                                          be defined in
                                                          the SET spec.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Almost
                                                          everybody
                                                          agrees on a
                                                          long-term
                                                          "usage" claim
                                                          ("type" is
                                                          taken) that
                                                          should be
                                                          defined
                                                          elsewhere,
                                                          e.g. in the
                                                          JWT BCP.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Did I miss
                                                          anything?</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          By the way, if
                                                          we do add a
                                                          "usage" claim,
                                                          we need to
                                                          also use it in
                                                          the SET
                                                          document
                                                          before it is
                                                          published.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Thanks,</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                              Yaron</div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          On 15/06/17
                                                          22:08, Justin
                                                          Richer wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          +1 to this as
                                                          well.<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                           — Justin</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          On Jun 15,
                                                          2017, at 1:09
                                                          PM, Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          +1 to what
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          said.<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          Also, Mike you
                                                          are missing
                                                          the other
                                                          requirement,
                                                          for RPs to
                                                          send events to
                                                          an IdP. The
                                                          iss+sub pair
                                                          at the top
                                                          level is
                                                          broken in this
                                                          case.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <br
                                                          clear="all">
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          <div
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                                                          Marius</div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                           </div>
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                                                          <div
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                                                          On Wed, Jun
                                                          14, 2017 at
                                                          5:33 PM, Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
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                                                          +1</div>
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                                                          <div
id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
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                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
id="m_498127282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          Phil</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
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initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                           </p>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                                                          Jun 14, 2017,
                                                          at 5:25 PM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle &lt;<a
href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike,</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your
                                                          explanation
                                                          for why this
                                                          is a
                                                          non-problem is
                                                          dependent upon
                                                          side effects
                                                          of elements of
                                                          OpenID Connect
                                                          that were not
                                                          designed to
                                                          solve this
                                                          issue. As a
                                                          result, I see
                                                          several issues
                                                          with it:</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
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initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.</span><span
style="font-size:7pt">      <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The caller of the
                                                          Token Endpoint
                                                          is the only
                                                          party that can
                                                          be certain
                                                          that a
                                                          nonce-less ID
                                                          Token is
                                                          really an ID
                                                          Token. Any
                                                          party that the
                                                          caller passes
                                                          the ID Token
                                                          off to has no
                                                          way to verify
                                                          its
                                                          provenance.</span></p>
                                                          <p
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2.</span><span
style="font-size:7pt">      <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Any future ID
                                                          Token
                                                          distribution
                                                          method needs
                                                          to solve this
                                                          problem again.</span></p>
                                                          <p
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.</span><span
style="font-size:7pt">     <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No other profile
                                                          of JWT can
                                                          ever use the
                                                          "nonce” claim.</span></p>
                                                          <p
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">4.</span><span
style="font-size:7pt">     <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This is only a
                                                          solution for
                                                          ID Tokens.
                                                          Every other
                                                          JWT profile
                                                          that cares
                                                          about
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          has to invent
                                                          its own
                                                          solution to
                                                          the problem.</span></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We
                                                          know from
                                                          experience
                                                          that naming
                                                          collisions and
                                                          replay attacks
                                                          are both
                                                          things that
                                                          happen. What’s
                                                          being proposed
                                                          is a simple,
                                                          defensive
                                                          measure
                                                          against these
                                                          risks. You
                                                          brought up JWT
                                                          libraries: a
                                                          general
                                                          solution
                                                          actually makes
                                                          it easier to
                                                          use common
                                                          libraries for
                                                          JWT parsing. A
                                                          “usage-aware”
                                                          JWT library
                                                          could handle
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          for any JWT
                                                          profile,
                                                          whereas with
                                                          the status quo
                                                          each profile
                                                          would require
                                                          unique logic.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          -- </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          Identity
                                                          Services</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <div
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                                                          <b><span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday,
                                                          June 14, 2017
                                                          at 1:16 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle"
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">You’ve
                                                          heard of
                                                          “premature
                                                          optimization”. 
                                                          I’d
                                                          characterize
                                                          the proposals
                                                          in this thread
                                                          as “premature
                                                          pessimation” –
                                                          making things
                                                          that can and
                                                          should be
                                                          simple
                                                          complex,
                                                          without data
                                                          showing
                                                          there’s any
                                                          need to do so.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mandatory
                                                          solutions are
                                                          being proposed
                                                          in this thread
                                                          to problems
                                                          that there’s
                                                          no evidence
                                                          that we
                                                          actually even
                                                          have.  It’s
                                                          already been
                                                          established
                                                          that it’s
                                                          impossible for
                                                          a SET to be
                                                          confused for
                                                          an ID Token –
                                                          see<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=eKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e="
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.html</span></a>. 
                                                          If people have
                                                          data showing
                                                          that this is
                                                          possible with
                                                          specific kinds
                                                          of Access
                                                          Tokens or
                                                          other real JWT
                                                          deployments,
                                                          please provide
                                                          specifics, so
                                                          that we can
                                                          use that data
                                                          to inform
                                                          appropriate
                                                          engineering
                                                          choices on our
                                                          part.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The
                                                          proposed
                                                          “solutions”,
                                                          such as
                                                          prohibiting
                                                          the use of
                                                          “sub” in the
                                                          normal way, or
                                                          requiring a
                                                          type claim,
                                                          would make
                                                          previously
                                                          simple things
                                                          unnecessarily
                                                          complex.  Yes,
                                                          then the
                                                          result is then
                                                          different than
                                                          a normal JWT
                                                          but a
                                                          consequence of
                                                          this is that
                                                          custom parsing
                                                          code would
                                                          have to be
                                                          used, rather
                                                          than a
                                                          standard JWT
                                                          parser.  The
                                                          more unwieldy
                                                          we make it to
                                                          use SETs, the
                                                          more likely
                                                          developers are
                                                          to just create
                                                          their own data
                                                          structures. 
                                                          Keeping it
                                                          simple is the
                                                          key to
                                                          adoption. 
                                                          Standards are
                                                          only useful if
                                                          they are
                                                          actually used.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">                              <wbr>                 
                                                          -- Mike</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          <b><span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event [<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
                                                          Behalf Of<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
                                                          June 13, 2017
                                                          5:33 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b><span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span>ID
                                                          Events Mailing
                                                          List &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Echoing
                                                          Marius’s
                                                          question: can
                                                          you explain
                                                          what you mean
                                                          by “intend”?</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To
                                                          your first
                                                          question, I
                                                          think a better
                                                          analogy would
                                                          be the X.509
                                                          Key Usage
                                                          extension: a
                                                          multi-valued
                                                          property that
                                                          declares the
                                                          intended
                                                          purpose of the
                                                          JWT, and that
                                                          a recipient
                                                          may refer to
                                                          when
                                                          determining
                                                          whether to
                                                          accept a JWT
                                                          being
                                                          presented to
                                                          it in some
                                                          context.</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          -- </div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman</div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          Identity
                                                          Services</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
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                                                          <b><span
                                                          style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday,
                                                          June 13, 2017
                                                          at 11:05 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a
href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>ID
                                                          Events Mailing
                                                          List &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          On Tue, Jun
                                                          13, 2017 at
                                                          2:11 AM, Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a
href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
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                                                          And a 2nd
                                                          question.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          What semantics
                                                          would "usage"
                                                          provide that
                                                          that are not
                                                          covered via
                                                          "intend",
                                                          "audience",
                                                          and "scope"?</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          "aud"
                                                          (audience)
                                                          specifies the
                                                          target client,
                                                          but not the
                                                          intended usage
                                                          (access token
                                                          to authorize
                                                          resource
                                                          access or SET
                                                          to communicate
                                                          a security
                                                          event?)</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
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                                                          <div>
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                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          "scope" is not
                                                          used by SET.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
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                                                          <div>
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                                                          style="margin:0in
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                                                          I don't know
                                                          what do you
                                                          mean by
                                                          "intend" (or
                                                          intent)?</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
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                                                          <div>
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                                                           </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
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                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Henk<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On 06/13/2017
                                                          01:01 AM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
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                                                          Thanks for
                                                          putting this
                                                          together!<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I think the
                                                          assumptions
                                                          inherent in
                                                          3.9 are
                                                          flawed:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          ·We can’t
                                                          guarantee that
                                                          every type of
                                                          JWT will have
                                                          a mutually
                                                          exclusive set
                                                          of valid
                                                          claims and/or
                                                          header
                                                          parameters,
                                                          and enforcing
                                                          this requires
                                                          a “fail on an
                                                          unrecognized
                                                          claim”
                                                          approach to
                                                          ensure that
                                                          JWTs from some
                                                          future spec
                                                          can’t be
                                                          mistaken for
                                                          JWTs from a
                                                          current spec.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          ·It is
                                                          unrealistic to
                                                          expect
                                                          implementers
                                                          to adhere to
                                                          the “different
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of JWTs”
                                                          rule. Whether
                                                          mandated by
                                                          the spec or
                                                          not,
                                                          implementers
                                                          will ignore
                                                          this because
                                                          managing one
                                                          key is easier
                                                          than managing
                                                          N different
                                                          keys.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          ·Ditto for
                                                          “aud” and
                                                          “iss” claims.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          +1 for a
                                                          “type” or
                                                          “usage”
                                                          claim/header
                                                          parameter.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          --<span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          *From:
                                                          *Id-event &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Date:
                                                          *Monday, June
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:18 PM<br>
                                                          *To: *Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Cc: *Adam
                                                          Dawes &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          "matake, nov"
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          "Phil Hunt
                                                          (IDM)" &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Subject: *Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Agreed. Note
                                                          that there is
                                                          still lots of
                                                          discussion on
                                                          what should be
                                                          in 3.9.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On Mon, Jun
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:15 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              Thanks for
                                                          the pointer
                                                          Dick, very
                                                          good timing
                                                          :-)<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              The issue
                                                          is described
                                                          by "2.7.
                                                          Cross-JWT
                                                          Confusion" and
                                                          the<br>
                                                              mitigation
                                                          is in "3.9.
                                                          Use Mutually
                                                          Exclusive
                                                          Validation
                                                          Rules for<br>
                                                              Different
                                                          Kinds of
                                                          JWTs",
                                                          specifically
                                                          "Use different
                                                          sets of<br>
                                                              required
                                                          claims...",
                                                          "Use different
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of<br>
                                                              JWTs." and
                                                          "Use different
                                                          issuers for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of
                                                          JWTs.".<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              I still
                                                          think that a
                                                          "type" claim
                                                          would bring a
                                                          lot of clarity
                                                          and<br>
                                                              safety.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              Marius<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                              On Thu,
                                                          Jun 8, 2017 at
                                                          9:59 PM, Dick
                                                          Hardt &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br>
                                                             
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                  Yaron,
                                                          Mike and I
                                                          just published
                                                          an BCP ID for
                                                          JWT<br>
                                                                 <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e="
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">http://self-issued.info/?p=<wbr>1690</span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                  On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 9:02
                                                          PM Adam Dawes
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a><br>
                                                                 
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                      I
                                                          was initially
                                                          a fan of
                                                          keeping SETS
                                                          to be very
                                                          similar to<br>
                                                                      id
                                                          tokens but I
                                                          now think this
                                                          is a better
                                                          plan.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                      On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 6:56
                                                          PM matake, nov
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
                                                                     
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                            +1
                                                          especially for
                                                          "type"<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                            2017-06-09
                                                          10:32
                                                          GMT+09:00 Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)<br>
                                                                       
                                                            &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                                +1<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                                Phil<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt; On
                                                          Jun 8, 2017,
                                                          at 6:28 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu<br>
                                                                       
                                                                &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white">
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          There were a
                                                          couple of
                                                          proposals on
                                                          how to<br>
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          distinguish
                                                          SETs from Id
                                                          Tokens and
                                                          Access Tokens
                                                          in<br>
                                                                       
                                                                such a
                                                          way that naive
implementations will not<br>
                                                                       
                                                                confuse
                                                          one for the
                                                          other and open
                                                          up security<br>
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          vulnerabilities.<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          There is also
                                                          another
                                                          important
                                                          requirement:
                                                          the<br>
                                                                       
                                                                SET
                                                          issuer in some
                                                          cases must be
                                                          different from
                                                          the<br>
                                                                       
                                                                "sub"
                                                          issuer. This
                                                          is the case of
                                                          an RP sending
                                                          SETs<br>
                                                                       
                                                                to an
                                                          IdP.<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          With these
                                                          requirements
                                                          in mind I
                                                          propose the<br>
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          following:<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt; -
                                                          both "sub" and
                                                          "iss" to be
                                                          defined at the
                                                          event<br>
                                                                       
                                                                level<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt; -
                                                          "iss" at event
                                                          level and at
                                                          top SET level
                                                          can<br>
                                                                       
                                                                be
                                                          different<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt; -
                                                          "iss" and
                                                          "sub" at event
                                                          level can be
                                                          different<br>
                                                                       
                                                                across
                                                          events in the
                                                          same SET<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt; -
                                                          "sub" should
                                                          NOT be present
                                                          at the top SET<br>
                                                                       
                                                                level
                                                          (this solves
                                                          the
                                                          disambiguation),
                                                          please note<br>
                                                                       
                                                                "should"
                                                          and not "must"<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          This solution
                                                          also allows
                                                          different
                                                          profiles that<br>
                                                                       
                                                                define
                                                          event types to
                                                          define
                                                          additional
                                                          claims<br>
                                                                       
                                                                related
                                                          to sub (like
                                                          email or
                                                          phone_number)
                                                          and<br>
                                                                       
                                                                since
                                                          all these
                                                          claims will be
                                                          at the event
                                                          level<br>
                                                                       
                                                                there
                                                          will be no
                                                          collisions or
                                                          ambiguity.<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          Another
                                                          proposal
                                                          (which I
                                                          supported) was
                                                          to<br>
                                                                       
                                                                define a
                                                          composite
                                                          "aud" claim.
                                                          This is not
                                                          solving<br>
                                                                       
                                                                the
                                                          requirement
                                                          for a
                                                          distinct  SET
                                                          issuer. Also,<br>
                                                                       
                                                                having
                                                          the same claim
                                                          name having
                                                          different
                                                          syntax<br>
                                                                       
                                                                in
                                                          different
                                                          token types
                                                          could lead to
                                                          confusion.<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          And yet
                                                          another
                                                          proposal was
                                                          to introduce a
                                                          new<br>
                                                                       
                                                                claim
                                                          for JWTs that
                                                          defines a
                                                          "type". This
                                                          is not<br>
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          practical in
                                                          the short
                                                          term, and it
                                                          also is not<br>
                                                                       
                                                                solving
                                                          the distinct
                                                          issuer
                                                          requirement,
                                                          but I think<br>
                                                                       
                                                                this is
                                                          something the
                                                          JWT group
                                                          should
                                                          seriously<br>
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          consider.<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          Thoughts?<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          Marius<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
                                                          Roman',serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">I<wbr>d-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                                 &gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                               <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e="
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                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                               
                                                          ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                                       
                                                                Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                                       
                                                               <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
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class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                                       
                                                               <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
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                                                          <br>
                                                                       
                                                           
                                                          ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                                       
                                                            Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                                       
                                                           <span
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                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
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href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
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                                                           <span
                                                          class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
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                                                          <br>
                                                                      --<span
class="m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                                                                     
                                                          Adam Dawes |
                                                          Sr. Product
                                                          Manager |<a
                                                          href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
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                                                          style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="cremed" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          |<a
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style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
                                                          class="cremed"
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                                                          &lt;<a
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                                                          class="cremed"
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                                                          <br>
                                                                     
                                                          ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                                     
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                                                          <br>
                                                                  --<span
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We agree on the objectives but we disagree on what defines simple and intero=
perable.=20

I foresee a lot of incompatibilities emerging based on the current draft.=20=


We have a lot of "if this" exception logic trying to permit the OpenId specs=
 to remain unchanged at the cost of clarity for general use.=20

In the general, the subject of events are often expressed as composites (mor=
e than one attribute).  The connect use of sub and iss is but one example.=20=


Re-using iss as the part of the subject causes confusion outside of Connect b=
ecause it appears inconsistent to those that cannot take the shortcut of dua=
l meaning use of iss. Within Connect causes inconsistency when RPs issue eve=
nts because they need two iss values. One for sub and one for the set issuer=
.=20

IMO the spec needs a lot of clarifying language or a more universal and cons=
istent way to express simple and composite subjects.=20

I am looking at a couple more options this aft for the groups consideration.=
=20

Phil

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>=20
> It seems to me that most of the discussions motiving the proposals being m=
ade have been implicitly assuming that SETs are about digital identities.  I=
n many of our use cases, they will be, which is great.  I fully support stru=
cting events for identity profiles to meet the needs of those use cases, inc=
luding often having a distinct SET issuer from the digital identity =E2=80=9C=
iss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the digital identity =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D be in the event structure, when needed.
> =20
> But just like JWTs are great for digital identities (consider ID Tokens) b=
ut are used in completely unrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID standard=
s), SETs should be great for digital identities (consider RISC and SCIM prof=
iles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.
> =20
> In some use cases there will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be very different from those we use for identities.  W=
e would be doing everyone a disservice to many use cases if we tried to forc=
e that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be present at the eve=
nt level, when those profiles don=E2=80=99t need it there.
> =20
> We shouldn=E2=80=99t make every SET use more complicated syntax that only m=
ore advanced use cases actually need.  Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D and other claims descriptions as they are.  Right now it=E2=80=
=99s general purpose and simple.  Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org]  On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC T=
oken Draft
> =20
> Agreed to all your comments.  And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not the=
 best name.  Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the moment.
> =20
> Thanks for the additional example. =20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wro=
te:
> =20
> Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.
> =20
> The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy acr=
oss events (when multiple events are present in one SET) but it is enforcing=
 a single profile per SET.  As you mention, not sure if this is good or bad.=

> =20
> Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot com=
e up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need something a=
long with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub" and other rig=
ht under "events"?
> =20
> Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs between an email p=
rovider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "email" attribute (or "=
phone_number"):
> {
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>    "events": {
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled": {
>        "reason": "hijacking",
>        "email": "bob@example.com",
>      }
>    }
> }
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
> We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.  I=E2=80=99d like to give som=
e examples that we can compare.
> =20
> Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in the=
 next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.
> =20
> Thanks!
> =20
> Three current draft examples:
> =20
> 1. A SCIM Event looks like:
> {=20
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com", =20
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>   ], =20
>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>   "events": {
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>   }
> }
> =20
> 2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>    {
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>       "sub": "248289761001",
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>       "jti": "bWJq",
>       "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>       "events": {
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>       }
>    }
> =20
> 3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
> {
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>    "events": {
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout": {
>        "sub": "248289761001",
>        "iss": "https://server.example.com=E2=80=9D,
>        "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>      }
>    }
> }
> =20
> I believe the concerns here are:
> =20
> Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent and=
 moves around. =20
> SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its own=
 attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can redefine sub=
 for their own purposes.  Is this good or bad?
> Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing a SE=
T they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully parse the e=
ntire object to determine if they are looking at structure 2 or 3.  IOW a lo=
t of implementations have to always check for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
> A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, shou=
ld they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or complic=
ate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an event with=
 a localized extension that adds value without impacting inter-op.
> =E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-level.=
 We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes should be in the p=
ayload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?
> =20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =20
> A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss for=
 identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This would exc=
lude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that subject informatio=
n is always in the payload. =20
> =20
> B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object. Insi=
de the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects are addres=
sed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format might look somet=
hing like:
> =20
> {=20
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com", =20
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>   ], =20
>   "target":{
>     "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>     "iss": "https://scim.example.com"
>   },
>   "events": {
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>   }
> }
> =20
> Here is an example modified logout=20
>    {
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>       "jti": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
>       =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
>         "sub": "248289761001",
>         "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
>       }
>       "events": {
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>       }
>    }
> =20
> The above formats address the following:
> =20
> * Consistent structures
> * Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common attrib=
ute
> * Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible (not s=
ure if this is a plus or minus)
> * No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
> * SET is substantially different such that existing access token and ID to=
ken code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
> * target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =E2=80=9Ct=
ype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and so on.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20

--Apple-Mail-3EB99A89-1C6F-4EA2-8450-C021040D4E93
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>We agree on the objectives but we disa=
gree on what defines simple and interoperable.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I foresee a lot of inc=
ompatibilities emerging based on the current draft.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">We have a lot of "=
if this" exception logic trying to permit the OpenId specs to remain unchang=
ed at the cost of clarity for general use.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
gnature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">In the general, the subjec=
t of events are often expressed as composites (more than one attribute). &nb=
sp;The connect use of sub and iss is but one example.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"=
AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Re-using iss as=
 the part of the subject causes confusion outside of Connect because it appe=
ars inconsistent to those that cannot take the shortcut of dual meaning use o=
f iss. Within Connect causes inconsistency when RPs issue events because the=
y need two iss values. One for sub and one for the set issuer.&nbsp;<br><br>=
IMO the spec needs a lot of clarifying language or a more universal and cons=
istent way to express simple and composite subjects.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"A=
ppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I am looking at a=
 couple more options this aft for the groups consideration.&nbsp;</div><div i=
d=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 22, 2017, at 12:45 PM=
, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that mos=
t of the discussions motiving the proposals being made have been implicitly a=
ssuming that SETs are about digital identities.&nbsp; In many of our use cas=
es, they will be, which is great.&nbsp; I
 fully support structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs of t=
hose use cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from the digita=
l identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the digital identit=
y =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the event structure, when needed.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But just like JWTs are g=
reat for digital identities (consider ID Tokens) but are used in completely u=
nrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID standards), SETs should be great fo=
r digital identities (consider
 RISC and SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">In some use cases there=
 will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be=
 very different from those we use for identities.&nbsp; We would be doing ev=
eryone a disservice to many use cases if we tried to force that =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D
 and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be present at the event level, when those profile=
s don=E2=80=99t need it there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We shouldn=E2=80=99t ma=
ke every SET use more complicated syntax that only more advanced use cases a=
ctually need. &nbsp;Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and=
 other claims descriptions as they are.&nbsp; Right now it=E2=80=99s general=

 purpose and simple.&nbsp; Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --=
 Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002=
060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Phil Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">i=
d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for=
 SEC Token Draft<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed to all your comments. &nbsp;And yes, =E2=80=9C=
target=E2=80=9D is not the best name. &nbsp;Just can=E2=80=99t think of one a=
t the moment.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the additional example. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Oracle Corporation, Ident=
ity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgnBphEerMr-ptkyBc7Ou0NhlYi-px3RhkAg-hvwr=
Zh8&amp;s=3DBvjnwv8WtZBIqCoRlY4mabqK24WWTwsCIu8Rg6HgX1s&amp;e=3D">www.indepe=
ndentid.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it r=
educes redundancy across events (when multiple events are present in one SET=
) but it is enforcing a single profile per
 SET.&nbsp; As you mention, not sure if this is good or bad.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "tar=
get", but I cannot come up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audienc=
e". We need something along with "events subject".
 Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub" and other right under "events"?<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". S=
ETs between an email provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "=
email" attribute (or "phone_number"):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">{</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://rp.example.com/">http=
s://rp.example.com</a>",</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp;"aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp;"iat": 1471566154,</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp;"jti": "bWJq",</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp;"events": {</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_risc__account-2Ddisabled&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJB=
m5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36=
X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DbZx_nhaRe7CCaR1Y0EIipxH8RqWCWDoBO4_mfvmfyEU&amp;e=3D=
">http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled</a>":
 {</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sa=
ns-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"reason": "hijacking",</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"email": "<a href=3D"mailto:bob@ex=
ample.com">bob@example.com</a>",</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">&nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Marius<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt<span cla=
ss=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@or=
acle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D"apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to h=
andle use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.&nbsp; I=
=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can compare.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Please add your comments. It would be good to reach s=
ome conclusion in the next few days if we are going to change the draft for P=
rague.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Three current draft examples:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">1. A SCIM Event looks like:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">{&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>jti</u>": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>iat</u>": 1458496025,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://security.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://security.example.com</a>", &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>aud</u>": [<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>"<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>=
",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>"<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>=
"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>], &=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"su=
b": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>=
",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"ev=
ents": {<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out)=
 looks like:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;{<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"<u>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" target=3D"=
_blank">https://server.example.com</a>",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"sub": "248289761001",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"<u>aud</u>": "s6BhdRkqt3",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"<u>iat</u>": 1471566154,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"<u>jti</u>": "bWJq",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"<u>sid</u>": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>"events": {<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_backchannel-2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP=
EivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;=
s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2dXoBQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout</a>":
 {}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (diffe=
rent issuer):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">{<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>"<u>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://rp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://rp.example.com</a>",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>"<u>aud</u>": "s6BhdRkqt3",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>"<u>iat</u>": 1471566154,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>"<u>jti</u>": "bWJq",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>"events": {<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span>"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__=
schemas.openid.net_event_risc-2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DBzVN38xROs=
Cs1SvZlBnTmxxBVq0Lh_ps97P5cYE7qX4&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas=
.openid.net/event/risc-logout</a>":
 {<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>"sub": "248289761001",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>"<u>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://server.example.com</a>=E2=80=9D,<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<u>sid</u>": "08a5019c-17e1-4977=
-8f42-65a12843ea02"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span>}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an>}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">I believe the concerns here are:<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"=
>Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent and m=
oves around. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l=
0 level1 lfo1">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"=
>SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its own a=
ttribute in the payload (introducing more variability).&nbsp; As long as =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can redefine s=
ub
 for their own purposes.&nbsp; Is this good or bad?<o:p></o:p></span></li><l=
i class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"=
>Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing a SET=
 they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully parse the en=
tire object to determine if they are looking
 at structure 2 or 3.&nbsp; IOW a lot of implementations have to always chec=
k for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct sub=
ject.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"=
>A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, shoul=
d they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or complica=
te multi-type events?&nbsp; In the draft, note
 that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized extension that adds value wit=
hout impacting inter-op.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-l=
ist:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"=
>=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-level. W=
e=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes should be in the pay=
load. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?<o:p></o:p></span></=
li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">A.&nbsp; We could say that all SETs must embed sub a=
nd iss (if they use iss for identifying subjects) in the payload.&nbsp; See e=
xample 3 above.&nbsp; This would exclude options 1 and 2
 and at least make it consistent that subject information is always in the p=
ayload. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which i=
s a JSON object. Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how thei=
r subjects are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.&nbsp;
 A new common SET format might look something like:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">{&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>jti</u>": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>iat</u>": 1458496025,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://security.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://security.example.com</a>", &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"<u=
>aud</u>": [<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>"<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>=
",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>"<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>=
"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>], &=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#0433FF">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"color:#0433FF">"target":{</=
span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif;color:#0433FF">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>"sub": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142d=
f96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142d=
f96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif;color:#0433FF">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>"<u>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>"</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.=
5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif;color:#0433FF">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>},</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&=
quot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"ev=
ents": {<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>}<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Here is an example modified logout&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;{<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u>iss</u>": "<a href=3D"https://=
server.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://server.example.com</a>",<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u>aud</u>": "s6BhdRkqt3",<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u>iat</u>": 1471566154,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u>jti</u>": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>=E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>"sub": "248289761001",<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u>sid</u>": "08a5019c-17e=
1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"events": {<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_backchannel-=
2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&=
amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg=
-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2dX=
oBQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-=
logout</a>":
 {}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mona=
co&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">The above formats address the following:<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">* Consistent structures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">* Flexibility for profiles to target differently but=
 using a common attribute<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">* Multiple event types share a common target and mus=
t be compatible (not sure if this is a plus or minus)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">* SET is substantially different such that existing a=
ccess token and ID token code will reject consistently (because sub is missi=
ng)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">* target could also have an attribute that indicates=
 the target =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddr=
ess, and so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architec=
t &amp; Standards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">@independentid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIG=
k&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DVOv1b-76jbGOvp=
EGO_O-K9g1hDpBzM3wQkPtLKPaSVQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.=
com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
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To: Benjamin Kaduk <bkaduk@akamai.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Ben,

Well the event type is supposed to inform the client how to interpret its ow=
n payload.=20

What we are discussing is whether SET should define subject addressing itsel=
f, partially, or not at all and leave it up to the event type profile.=20

I would like to see strong standardization and consistency in the outer leve=
l jwt object to improve the interop. If subject addressing is at the top lev=
el then SET should be clear about its use.=20

Phil

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <bkaduk@akamai.com> wrote:
>=20
> A very abstract concern I would have is that if you have some entity issui=
ng SETs assuming one profile, how is it ensured that everything consuming th=
ose SETs interpret it using the same profile?  I know there are a lot of thi=
ngs deployed out there in the greater OAuth world that use out-of-band agree=
ments between participants, but maybe we want to move away from that sort of=
 thing.
>=20
> -Ben
>=20
>> On 06/21/2017 07:25 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) wrote:
>> +1
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wro=
te:
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
> wrote:
>>>> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as t=
hey are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which claims t=
hey use and how they use them.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I don't think this is acceptable Mike.
>>>=20
>>> I'll summarize again.
>>>=20
>>> We have two open problem to solve:
>>> 1. SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens and Access Tokens in=
 particular).
>>> 2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the top level, the "sub" r=
elated "iss" is different from the SET "iss". This is not specific to any pa=
rticular profile.
>>>=20
>>> Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and a long term solution.=
 The important solution for secevent is the short term one.
>>>=20
>>> Out of the above only the long term solution for problem 1 has some prom=
ising resolution (using typ or cty).
>>>=20
>>> So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to secevent is solved ba=
sically.
>>>=20
>>> Again, if your main concern is compatibility for the logout spec (which i=
s understandable) then let's talk about that and see if we can find a soluti=
on for the two problems above with that constraint. Unfortunately I cannot s=
ee such a solution.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =E2=80=93 Mike
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Phil Hunt
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
>>>> To: Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu; John Bradley; Henk Birkholz; Justin Richer; Yaron=
 Sheffer; Mike Jones; ID Events Mailing List
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dist=
inct SET issuer
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>>>>=20
>>>> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, a=
nd the issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of a=
n event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims required to unique=
ly identify the subject MUST be contained in the event payload.
>>>>=20
>>>> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =E2=80=9C=
ipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=
=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
>>>> A SCIM resource URI of https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9=
a242bd3859c82c4 might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=E2=80=
=9D
>>>>=20
>>>> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depe=
nds on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the sub=
ject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amaz=
on.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a s=
ingle SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub                =
                         semantics up to the profiles.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
>>>>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>> Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7=
jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jr=
icher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Michael Jones <Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and dis=
tinct SET issuer
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabl=
ed (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
>>>>> 1. "account-disabled"
>>>>> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Marius
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express mul=
tiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from d=
ifferent profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC ba=
ckchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), then I=E2=
=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one SET.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (I=
DM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
>>>>>> To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz=
 <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius S=
curtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mic=
hael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@i=
etf.org>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and di=
stinct SET issuer
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current b=
ackchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own dup=
licate definitions and meanings.=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in           =
                                            practice.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of              =
                                         the differentiators we had tried to=
 make was an assumption that user initiated events would be part of connect.=
 Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like passwo=
rd reset.=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are n=
ot commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW singl=
e sign out not expected.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:=

>>>>>>> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the=
 same family that agree on top level claims.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really definin=
g a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@a=
mazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET s=
ub problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is proba=
bly not the right setting to discuss the former.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conf=
licting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B=
 says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provid=
e an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then they cannot be p=
resent within the same token. This incompatibility trap seems like something=
 that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@or=
acle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing Li=
st <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/=
idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is bet=
ter but we can agree on a convention.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a J=
WT.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and c=
onfusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using the t=
yp parameter based on the existing spec.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventu=
ally gets you into trouble.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level=
 is a good idea. =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens=
.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT f=
or things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the su=
b is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not=
 be required for all event                                                  =
         types.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub=
 issue.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>>>>>>>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules=
 for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>>>>>>>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim              =
                                             ("type" is taken) that should b=
e defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>>>>>>>> Did I miss anything?
>>>>>>>>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it i=
n the SET document before it is published.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> +1 to this as well.=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google=
.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to sen=
d events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case=
.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richa=
nna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent up=
on side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solv=
e this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party th=
at can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any part=
y that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its proven=
ance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solv=
e this problem again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D=
 claim.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT=
 profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to t=
he problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay atta=
cks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, d=
efensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a genera=
l solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing.=
 A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require uni=
que logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike J=
ones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Eve=
nts Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraun=
hofer.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion=
 and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D=
.  I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematu=
re pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be simpl=
e complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to probl=
ems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we                                =
                           actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s already been es=
tablished that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID To=
ken =E2=80=93 see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg=
00428.html.  If people have data showing that this is possible with specific=
 kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specif=
ics, so that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering         =
                                                  choices on our part.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting t=
he use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim=
, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the r=
esult is then                                                           diff=
erent than a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing cod=
e would have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwiel=
dy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create the=
ir own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.          =
                                                  Standards are only useful i=
f they are actually used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <h=
enk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion=
 and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you me=
an by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X=
.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended=
 purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whet=
her to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius=
 Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion=
 and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz=
@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covere=
d via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the inte=
nded usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a=
 security event?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will=
 have a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and=
 enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D a=
pproach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken f=
or JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to t=
he =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whethe=
r mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managin=
g one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D c=
laim/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Di=
ck Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@mat=
ake.jp>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil=
.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confu=
sion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what s=
hould be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtesc=
u@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and=
 the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different se=
ts of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different k=
inds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of=
 JWTs.".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of c=
larity and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@g=
mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@go=
ogle.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very=
 similar to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@=
matake.jp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Sc=
urtescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on h=
ow to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Acce=
ss Tokens in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations wi=
ll not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up se=
curity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There is also another important requi=
rement: the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be differe=
nt from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP s=
ending SETs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I pro=
pose the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined a=
t the event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET=
 level can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can b=
e different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the t=
op SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), =
                                                          please note
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different p=
rofiles that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     define event types to define additional c=
laims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or phone_numb=
er) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the ev=
ent level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity=
.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) w=
as to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is n=
ot solving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issu=
er. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having differ=
ent syntax
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to c=
onfusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to intro=
duce a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". Th=
is is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it also=
 is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement,=
 but I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should s=
eriously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > _____________________________________=
__________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlN=
Ke4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9=
NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     ________________________________________=
_______
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.=
org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id=
-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 ____________________________________________=
___
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-eve=
nt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.=
com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> m=
ail list to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list=
 to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKC=
X5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU=
7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7=
TmGMSWWs&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DBdig6jCQcXk91JEeOcs=
SzadVRk9IgwZ5HRkh8f0EjfA&s=3DPnOQEkjo50Ss_9xMzvLfAShD4e4QDhX6LsSMHSX0f8Q&e=3D=
=20

--Apple-Mail-2F1B01EC-E4B5-4B33-9550-E1DD6B15E7A6
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Ben,</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Well the event type is supposed t=
o inform the client how to interpret its own payload.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"=
AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">What we are dis=
cussing is whether SET should define subject addressing itself, partially, o=
r not at all and leave it up to the event type profile.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I would like t=
o see strong standardization and consistency in the outer level jwt object t=
o improve the interop. If subject addressing is at the top level then SET sh=
ould be clear about its use.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 22, 2017=
, at 12:58 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bkaduk@akamai.com">bkadu=
k@akamai.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    <tt>A very abstract concern I would have is that if you have some
      entity issuing SETs assuming one profile, how is it ensured that
      everything consuming those SETs interpret it using the same
      profile?&nbsp; I know there are a lot of things deployed out there in
      the greater OAuth world that use out-of-band agreements between
      participants, but maybe we want to move away from that sort of
      thing.<br>
      <br>
      -Ben<br>
    </tt><br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 06/21/2017 07:25 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:618AD3DC-778F-4C8F-B60A-92F5BDCB14=
F2@oracle.com">
     =20
      <div>+1<br>
        <br>
        Phil</div>
      <div><br>
        On Jun 21, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mscurtescu@google.com" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt=
;
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <div>
          <div dir=3D"ltr">
            <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
              <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM,
                Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span>
                wrote:<br>
                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
                    <div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSection1">
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe
                        has the most support is keeping things as they
                        are, leaving it up to profiles and applications
                        to define which claims they use and how they use
                        them.</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some
                        profiles to use the language below.</p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>I don't think this is acceptable Mike.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>I'll summarize again.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>We have two open problem to solve:</div>
                <div>1. SETs could be confused for other JWTs (Id Tokens
                  and Access Tokens in particular).</div>
                <div>2. In some cases there is an "iss" conflict at the
                  top level, the "sub" related "iss" is different from
                  the SET "iss". This is not specific to any particular
                  profile.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Further, problem 1 needs a short term solution and
                  a long term solution. The important solution for
                  secevent is the short term one.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Out of the above only the long term solution for
                  problem 1 has some promising resolution (using typ or
                  cty).</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>So, keeping things as they are nothing relevant to
                  secevent is solved basically.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Again, if your main concern is compatibility for
                  the logout spec (which is understandable) then let's
                  talk about that and see if we can find a solution for
                  the two problems above with that constraint.
                  Unfortunately I cannot see such a solution.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
                    <div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSection1">
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=93 Mike</p>
                      <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
                        1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:=
0in"><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Phil Hunt</a><br>
                          <b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
                          <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Richard Backman,
                            Annabelle</a><br>
                          <b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Marius Scurtes=
cu</a>;
                          <a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
                            John Bradley</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkhol=
z@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"t=
rue">Henk Birkholz</a>;
                          <a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Justin Richer</a>; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-s=
end=3D"true">
                            Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jon=
es@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true=
">Mike Jones</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
                            ID Events Mailing List</a></p>
                        <div>
                          <div class=3D"h5"><br>
                            <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for
                            Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET
                            issuer</div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div class=3D"h5">
                        <div>
                          <div>So I understand what is being proposed
                            is:</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div><font face=3D"Courier New">If the event
                              type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify it=
s subject,
                              and the issuer of the subject is identical
                              to the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D
                              may be used at the top level. Otherwise,
                              the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D) and
                              any other claims required to uniquely
                              identify the subject MUST be contained in
                              the event payload.</font></div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4
                            might be represented in a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=
=9D claim
                            defined in the event payload.
                            =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"</d=
iv>
                          <div>A SCIM resource URI of <a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__scim.example.com_users_ac1faebbf=
d3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&amp;r=3D=
sssDLkeEEBWNIXmTsdpw8TZ3tAJx-Job4p1unc7rOhM&amp;m=3DuqeXpbQbQPtc33ymleIRlveZ=
PtHm9r9wqoWNP2zG0K4&amp;s=3D97MbuduWH8BZWdttvVR0bSUjrtRvHpoKtfJ_1u6MiU4&amp;=
e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
                              https://scim.example.com/<wbr>users/<wbr>ac1fa=
ebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>
                            might be identified in the event payload as:
                            =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__scim.example.com_users_ac1faebbfd3c=
45ce9a242bd3859c82c4&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&amp;r=3Ds=
ssDLkeEEBWNIXmTsdpw8TZ3tAJx-Job4p1unc7rOhM&amp;m=3DuqeXpbQbQPtc33ymleIRlveZP=
tHm9r9wqoWNP2zG0K4&amp;s=3D97MbuduWH8BZWdttvVR0bSUjrtRvHpoKtfJ_1u6MiU4&amp;e=
=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://sci=
m.example.<wbr>com/users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>=E2=80=
=9D</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>A Connect Logout event from an OP uses
                            the top level sub claim and depends on =E2=80=9C=
iss=E2=80=9D
                            being the same for the event issuer AND the
                            subject. This means that no party may issue
                            logout events on behalf of the OP.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                  <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                    <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                      <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                        <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                          <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                            <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                              <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                  <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                    <div><span class=3D"m_49=
8127282251743230Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-hei=
ght:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                        <div style=3D"word-w=
rap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Phil</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independenti=
d</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&am=
p;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm=
5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DIPOgg6e8SsqiBFnOCsQrY6Oh1pp=
DIQl_YMP2jcBlR0w&amp;s=3D2Z6KTHoFGGCV0Rp37kqovm2jeptanbYHiZpx0SvIo-8&amp;e=3D=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">www.independen=
tid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </span><a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <div>
                              <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                <div>On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM,
                                  Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-se=
nd=3D"true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</div>
                                <br class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-inter=
change-newline">
                                <div>
                                  <div class=3D"m_498127282251743230WordSect=
ion1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;bac=
kground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'T=
imes
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">Fair
                                        point. If we do not intend to
                                        support multiple profiles within
                                        a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less
                                        concerned about leaving sub
                                        semantics up to the profiles.</span>=
</div>
                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'T=
imes
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        --&nbsp;</div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        Annabelle Richard Backman</div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        Identity Services</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'T=
imes
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'T=
imes
                                      New Roman',serif">
                                      <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                    <div style=3D"border-style:solid none
none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                      0in 0in">
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        <b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mari=
us Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                          <b>Date:<span class=3D"m_498127282=
251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday,
                                          June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br>
                                          <b>To:<span class=3D"m_49812728225=
1743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard
                                          Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-s=
end=3D"true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                          <b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_49812728225=
1743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Phil
                                          Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"=
true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                                          John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,
                                          Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do=
-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
                                          Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"tru=
e">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                          Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                                          Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not=
-send=3D"true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                          ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-=
send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                          <b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_498127=
282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re:
                                          [Id-event] solution for
                                          Id/Access Token confusion and
                                          distinct SET issuer</span></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        &nbsp;</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        Example for multiple events
                                        within same profile: IdP account
                                        is disabled (because of
                                        hijacking), this can lead to two
                                        events:</div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:'Times
                                          New Roman',serif">
                                          1. "account-disabled"</div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:'Times
                                          New Roman',serif">
                                          2. "sessions-revoked"</div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        <br clear=3D"all">
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                            0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:'Times
                                            New Roman',serif">
                                            Marius</div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        &nbsp;</div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                          0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:'Times
                                          New Roman',serif">
                                          On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54
                                          PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@ama=
zon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                          wrote:</div>
                                        <blockquote style=3D"border-style:no=
ne none
                                          none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
                                          0in 0in
                                          6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right=
:0in" type=3D"cite">
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
                                                  spec says that the
                                                  events claim SHOULD
                                                  NOT be used to express
                                                  multiple logical
                                                  events. If it=E2=80=99s al=
so
                                                  not used to express
                                                  events from different
                                                  profiles that
                                                  correspond to the same
                                                  logical event (e.g. an
                                                  OIDC backchannel
                                                  logout event alongside
                                                  a hypothetical RISC
                                                  logout event), then
                                                  I=E2=80=99m not sure what u=
se
                                                  case that leaves for
                                                  multiple events in one
                                                  SET.</span></div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div style=3D"margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  --&nbsp;</div>
                                                <div style=3D"margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  Annabelle Richard
                                                  Backman</div>
                                                <div style=3D"margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  Identity Services</div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                              <div style=3D"border-style:sol=
id
                                                none
                                                none;border-top-width:1pt;bo=
rder-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                                0in 0in">
                                                <div style=3D"margin:0in
                                                  0in
                                                  0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:'Times
                                                  New Roman',serif">
                                                  <b><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-=
do-not-send=3D"true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                    on behalf of "Phil
                                                    Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Date:<span class=3D"m=
_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday,
                                                    June 21, 2017 at
                                                    2:12 PM<br>
                                                    <b>To:<span class=3D"m_4=
98127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>John
                                                    Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_4=
98127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard
                                                    Backman, Annabelle"
                                                    &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&g=
t;,
                                                    Henk Birkholz &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true=
">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
                                                    Justin Richer &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">jricher@mit.ed=
u</a>&gt;,
                                                    Marius Scurtescu
                                                    &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ms=
curtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurtescu@google.com<=
/a>&gt;,
                                                    Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">yaronf.i=
etf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Michael Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    ID Events Mailing
                                                    List &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;</span></div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      <br>
                                                      <b>Subject:<span class=
=3D"m_498127282251743230Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re:
                                                      [Id-event]
                                                      solution for
                                                      Id/Access Token
                                                      confusion and
                                                      distinct SET
                                                      issuer</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      &nbsp;</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      Separate or
                                                      combined may be
                                                      evolving. Mike
                                                      wants to keep the
                                                      current
                                                      backchannel logout
                                                      very narrowly
                                                      scoped. He
                                                      suggested risc
                                                      define its own
                                                      duplicate
                                                      definitions and
                                                      meanings.&nbsp;</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      &nbsp;</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      That leads me to
                                                      believe we will
                                                      have multi-type
                                                      events in
                                                      practice.</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      &nbsp;</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      Session
                                                      cancellation can
                                                      occur for many
                                                      reasons. One of
                                                      the
                                                      differentiators we
                                                      had tried to make
                                                      was an assumption
                                                      that user
                                                      initiated events
                                                      would be part of
                                                      connect. Risk
                                                      would cover
                                                      variations that
                                                      drive off of risk
                                                      calculations like
                                                      password reset.&nbsp;<=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      &nbsp;</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      There are also
                                                      signout events at
                                                      rp's to let the OP
                                                      know. These are
                                                      not commands but
                                                      notification that
                                                      a resource session
                                                      is cancelled. IOW
                                                      single sign out
                                                      not expected.&nbsp;</d=
iv>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div id=3D"m_4981272822517=
43230m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in=

                                                      0in
                                                      0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      <br>
                                                      Phil</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in
                                                      0in
                                                      12pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:'Times
                                                      New Roman',serif">
                                                      <br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    On Jun 21, 2017, at
                                                    1:58 PM, John
                                                    Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com<=
/a>&gt;
                                                    wrote:
                                                  </div>
                                                  <blockquote style=3D"margi=
n-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div style=3D"margin:0=
in
                                                        0in
                                                        0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:'Times
                                                        New
                                                        Roman',serif">
                                                        I thought we
                                                        decided that we
                                                        are only
                                                        allowing set
                                                        messages form
                                                        the same family
                                                        that agree on
                                                        top level
                                                        claims.</div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div style=3D"margin=
:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div style=3D"margin=
:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          Otherwise
                                                          there can be
                                                          no top level
                                                          claims and we
                                                          are really
                                                          defining a
                                                          alternative
                                                          format to JWT
                                                          in some ways.</div=
>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div style=3D"margin=
:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div style=3D"margin=
:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          John B.</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div style=3D"margin=
:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          On Jun 21,
                                                          2017, at 3:54
                                                          PM, Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
                                                          agree with
                                                          John that the
                                                          JWT type
                                                          confusion
                                                          problem and
                                                          the SET sub
                                                          problem can
                                                          and should be
                                                          discussed
                                                          separately.
                                                          The secevents
                                                          WG is probably
                                                          not the right
                                                          setting to
                                                          discuss the
                                                          former.</span></di=
v>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My
                                                          concern with
                                                          the sub claim
                                                          is that two
                                                          profiles may
                                                          dictate
                                                          conflicting
                                                          semantics
                                                          (e.g. Profile
                                                          A says it=E2=80=99=
s a
                                                          phone number,
                                                          Profile B says
                                                          it=E2=80=99s an em=
ail
                                                          address). If
                                                          these profiles
                                                          don=E2=80=99t prov=
ide
                                                          an alternate
                                                          way to declare
                                                          subject of
                                                          their events,
                                                          then they
                                                          cannot be
                                                          present within
                                                          the same
                                                          token. This
                                                          incompatibility
                                                          trap seems
                                                          like something
                                                          that could be
                                                          easily missed
                                                          by groups
                                                          profiling SET.</sp=
an></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          --&nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bord=
er-style:solid
                                                          none
                                                          none;border-top-wi=
dth:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                                          0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <b><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-46=
29842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@v=
e7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span clas=
s=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Wednesday,
                                                          June 21, 2017
                                                          at 1:39 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>Yaron
                                                          Sheffer &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">yaronf.i=
etf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>Justin
                                                          Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">jricher@mit.edu=
</a>&gt;,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">mscurt=
escu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">richanna@a=
mazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                                          Phil Hunt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                                                          Michael Jones
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">id-event@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;=
<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          In the
                                                          envelope typ
                                                          is a
                                                          media/mime
                                                          type.&nbsp;
                                                          Registering
                                                          application/idt+jw=
t
                                                          if we register
                                                          jwt as a
                                                          structured
                                                          name sufix. &nbsp;=
</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Using the cty
                                                          is also
                                                          possible. &nbsp; I=

                                                          need to think
                                                          about what is
                                                          better but we
                                                          can agree on a
                                                          convention.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Not everything
                                                          is going to be
                                                          a set token
                                                          like not every
                                                          JWS is a JWT.</div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          If we are
                                                          going to
                                                          define
                                                          processing
                                                          rules to stop
                                                          collisions and
                                                          confusion
                                                          around JWT for
                                                          different
                                                          purposes, we
                                                          should just
                                                          start using
                                                          the typ
                                                          parameter
                                                          based on the
                                                          existing spec.</di=
v>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          In general
                                                          content
                                                          sniffing if
                                                          there is more
                                                          than one
                                                          option
                                                          eventually
                                                          gets you into
                                                          trouble.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          I am not
                                                          convinced that
                                                          forcing there
                                                          to be no sub
                                                          at the top
                                                          level is a
                                                          good idea. &nbsp;<=
/div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          It is not the
                                                          way we should
                                                          differentiate
                                                          between SET
                                                          and id_tokens.</di=
v>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          If sub is not
                                                          allowed at the
                                                          top level
                                                          people will do
                                                          non SET JWT
                                                          for things
                                                          where the
                                                          subject is
                                                          scoped to the
                                                          iss of the
                                                          token.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          I think
                                                          defining sub
                                                          to be part of
                                                          the event for
                                                          cases where
                                                          the sub is
                                                          scoped
                                                          differently
                                                          from the
                                                          issuer of the
                                                          token is fine,
                                                          but should not
                                                          be required
                                                          for all event
                                                          types.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          I think we
                                                          should solve
                                                          the confusion
                                                          issue
                                                          separately
                                                          from the sub
                                                          issue.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          Sorry I am at
                                                          CIS so trying
                                                          to catch up on
                                                          lists.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          John B.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          On Jun 17,
                                                          2017, at 3:45
                                                          PM, Yaron
                                                          Sheffer &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          So to
                                                          summarize what
                                                          I'm seeing on
                                                          this thread:</div>=

                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          Everybody
                                                          agrees with
                                                          Marius's
                                                          short-term
                                                          solution,
                                                          specific rules
                                                          for "sub" and
                                                          "iss" that can
                                                          be defined in
                                                          the SET spec.</div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
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round-color:white">
                                                          Almost
                                                          everybody
                                                          agrees on a
                                                          long-term
                                                          "usage" claim
                                                          ("type" is
                                                          taken) that
                                                          should be
                                                          defined
                                                          elsewhere,
                                                          e.g. in the
                                                          JWT BCP.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          Did I miss
                                                          anything?</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          By the way, if
                                                          we do add a
                                                          "usage" claim,
                                                          we need to
                                                          also use it in
                                                          the SET
                                                          document
                                                          before it is
                                                          published.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          Thanks,</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Yaron</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          On 15/06/17
                                                          22:08, Justin
                                                          Richer wrote:</div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
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round-color:white">
                                                          +1 to this as
                                                          well.<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;=E2=80=94 Ju=
stin</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          On Jun 15,
                                                          2017, at 1:09
                                                          PM, Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          +1 to what
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          said.<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Also, Mike you
                                                          are missing
                                                          the other
                                                          requirement,
                                                          for RPs to
                                                          send events to
                                                          an IdP. The
                                                          iss+sub pair
                                                          at the top
                                                          level is
                                                          broken in this
                                                          case.</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
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                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
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round-color:white">
                                                          <br clear=3D"all">=

                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Marius</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          On Wed, Jun
                                                          14, 2017 at
                                                          5:33 PM, Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none
                                                          none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          6pt;margin:5pt
                                                          0in 5pt 4.8pt" typ=
e=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          +1</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div id=3D"m_49812=
7282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">=

                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div id=3D"m_49812=
7282251743230m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">=

                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Phil</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          &nbsp;</p>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                                                          Jun 14, 2017,
                                                          at 5:25 PM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</span></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike,</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your
                                                          explanation
                                                          for why this
                                                          is a
                                                          non-problem is
                                                          dependent upon
                                                          side effects
                                                          of elements of
                                                          OpenID Connect
                                                          that were not
                                                          designed to
                                                          solve this
                                                          issue. As a
                                                          result, I see
                                                          several issues
                                                          with it:</span></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:7pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_4981272822517432=
30m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The caller of the
                                                          Token Endpoint
                                                          is the only
                                                          party that can
                                                          be certain
                                                          that a
                                                          nonce-less ID
                                                          Token is
                                                          really an ID
                                                          Token. Any
                                                          party that the
                                                          caller passes
                                                          the ID Token
                                                          off to has no
                                                          way to verify
                                                          its
                                                          provenance.</span>=
</p>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2.</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:7pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_4981272822517432=
30m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Any future ID
                                                          Token
                                                          distribution
                                                          method needs
                                                          to solve this
                                                          problem again.</sp=
an></p>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-46298425693851599=
88apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No other profile
                                                          of JWT can
                                                          ever use the
                                                          "nonce=E2=80=9D cl=
aim.</span></p>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_4981=
27282251743230m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-46298425693851599=
88apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This is only a
                                                          solution for
                                                          ID Tokens.
                                                          Every other
                                                          JWT profile
                                                          that cares
                                                          about
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          has to invent
                                                          its own
                                                          solution to
                                                          the problem.</span=
></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We
                                                          know from
                                                          experience
                                                          that naming
                                                          collisions and
                                                          replay attacks
                                                          are both
                                                          things that
                                                          happen. What=E2=80=
=99s
                                                          being proposed
                                                          is a simple,
                                                          defensive
                                                          measure
                                                          against these
                                                          risks. You
                                                          brought up JWT
                                                          libraries: a
                                                          general
                                                          solution
                                                          actually makes
                                                          it easier to
                                                          use common
                                                          libraries for
                                                          JWT parsing. A
                                                          =E2=80=9Cusage-awa=
re=E2=80=9D
                                                          JWT library
                                                          could handle
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          for any JWT
                                                          profile,
                                                          whereas with
                                                          the status quo
                                                          each profile
                                                          would require
                                                          unique logic.</spa=
n></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          --&nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bord=
er-style:solid
                                                          none
                                                          none;border-top-wi=
dth:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                                          0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <b><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-46=
29842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bou=
nces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span clas=
s=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Wednesday,
                                                          June 14, 2017
                                                          at 1:16 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>"Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle"
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br=
>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">You=E2=80=99ve
                                                          heard of
                                                          =E2=80=9Cpremature=

                                                          optimization=E2=80=
=9D.&nbsp;
                                                          I=E2=80=99d
                                                          characterize
                                                          the proposals
                                                          in this thread
                                                          as =E2=80=9Cpremat=
ure
                                                          pessimation=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=93
                                                          making things
                                                          that can and
                                                          should be
                                                          simple
                                                          complex,
                                                          without data
                                                          showing
                                                          there=E2=80=99s an=
y
                                                          need to do so.</sp=
an></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mandatory
                                                          solutions are
                                                          being proposed
                                                          in this thread
                                                          to problems
                                                          that there=E2=80=99=
s
                                                          no evidence
                                                          that we
                                                          actually even
                                                          have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=
=99s
                                                          already been
                                                          established
                                                          that it=E2=80=99s
                                                          impossible for
                                                          a SET to be
                                                          confused for
                                                          an ID Token =E2=80=
=93
                                                          see<span class=3D"=
m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeG=
JxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&a=
mp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-=
not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wb=
r>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.html</span></a>.&nbsp;
                                                          If people have
                                                          data showing
                                                          that this is
                                                          possible with
                                                          specific kinds
                                                          of Access
                                                          Tokens or
                                                          other real JWT
                                                          deployments,
                                                          please provide
                                                          specifics, so
                                                          that we can
                                                          use that data
                                                          to inform
                                                          appropriate
                                                          engineering
                                                          choices on our
                                                          part.</span></div>=

                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The
                                                          proposed
                                                          =E2=80=9Csolutions=
=E2=80=9D,
                                                          such as
                                                          prohibiting
                                                          the use of
                                                          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D in the
                                                          normal way, or
                                                          requiring a
                                                          type claim,
                                                          would make
                                                          previously
                                                          simple things
                                                          unnecessarily
                                                          complex.&nbsp; Yes=
,
                                                          then the
                                                          result is then
                                                          different than
                                                          a normal JWT
                                                          but a
                                                          consequence of
                                                          this is that
                                                          custom parsing
                                                          code would
                                                          have to be
                                                          used, rather
                                                          than a
                                                          standard JWT
                                                          parser.&nbsp; The
                                                          more unwieldy
                                                          we make it to
                                                          use SETs, the
                                                          more likely
                                                          developers are
                                                          to just create
                                                          their own data
                                                          structures.&nbsp;
                                                          Keeping it
                                                          simple is the
                                                          key to
                                                          adoption.&nbsp;
                                                          Standards are
                                                          only useful if
                                                          they are
                                                          actually used.</sp=
an></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                                                          -- Mike</span></di=
v>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span>=
</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bord=
er-style:solid
                                                          none
                                                          none;border-top-wi=
dth:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
                                                          0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event [<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span><b>On
                                                          Behalf Of<span cla=
ss=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span></b>Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>Tuesday,
                                                          June 13, 2017
                                                          5:33 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span cl=
ass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br=
>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b><span cl=
ass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>ID
                                                          Events Mailing
                                                          List &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><sp=
an class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Echoing
                                                          Marius=E2=80=99s
                                                          question: can
                                                          you explain
                                                          what you mean
                                                          by =E2=80=9Cintend=
=E2=80=9D?</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To
                                                          your first
                                                          question, I
                                                          think a better
                                                          analogy would
                                                          be the X.509
                                                          Key Usage
                                                          extension: a
                                                          multi-valued
                                                          property that
                                                          declares the
                                                          intended
                                                          purpose of the
                                                          JWT, and that
                                                          a recipient
                                                          may refer to
                                                          when
                                                          determining
                                                          whether to
                                                          accept a JWT
                                                          being
                                                          presented to
                                                          it in some
                                                          context.</span></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          --&nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bord=
er-style:solid
                                                          none
                                                          none;border-top-wi=
dth:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
                                                          0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <b><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-46=
29842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bou=
nces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span clas=
s=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Tuesday,
                                                          June 13, 2017
                                                          at 11:05 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"tru=
e"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span><=
/a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>ID
                                                          Events Mailing
                                                          List &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          On Tue, Jun
                                                          13, 2017 at
                                                          2:11 AM, Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"tru=
e"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span><=
/a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none
                                                          none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          6pt;margin:5pt
                                                          0in 5pt 4.8pt" typ=
e=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          And a 2nd
                                                          question.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          What semantics
                                                          would "usage"
                                                          provide that
                                                          that are not
                                                          covered via
                                                          "intend",
                                                          "audience",
                                                          and "scope"?</div>=

                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          "aud"
                                                          (audience)
                                                          specifies the
                                                          target client,
                                                          but not the
                                                          intended usage
                                                          (access token
                                                          to authorize
                                                          resource
                                                          access or SET
                                                          to communicate
                                                          a security
                                                          event?)</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          "scope" is not
                                                          used by SET.</div>=

                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          I don't know
                                                          what do you
                                                          mean by
                                                          "intend" (or
                                                          intent)?</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none
                                                          none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          6pt;margin:5pt
                                                          0in 5pt 4.8pt" typ=
e=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Henk<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On 06/13/2017
                                                          01:01 AM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none
                                                          none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          6pt;margin:5pt
                                                          0in 5pt 4.8pt" typ=
e=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          Thanks for
                                                          putting this
                                                          together!<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I think the
                                                          assumptions
                                                          inherent in
                                                          3.9 are
                                                          flawed:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=B7We can=E2=80=
=99t
                                                          guarantee that
                                                          every type of
                                                          JWT will have
                                                          a mutually
                                                          exclusive set
                                                          of valid
                                                          claims and/or
                                                          header
                                                          parameters,
                                                          and enforcing
                                                          this requires
                                                          a =E2=80=9Cfail on=
 an
                                                          unrecognized
                                                          claim=E2=80=9D
                                                          approach to
                                                          ensure that
                                                          JWTs from some
                                                          future spec
                                                          can=E2=80=99t be
                                                          mistaken for
                                                          JWTs from a
                                                          current spec.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=B7It is
                                                          unrealistic to
                                                          expect
                                                          implementers
                                                          to adhere to
                                                          the =E2=80=9Cdiffe=
rent
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of JWTs=E2=80=
=9D
                                                          rule. Whether
                                                          mandated by
                                                          the spec or
                                                          not,
                                                          implementers
                                                          will ignore
                                                          this because
                                                          managing one
                                                          key is easier
                                                          than managing
                                                          N different
                                                          keys.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=B7Ditto for
                                                          =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D and
                                                          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D claims.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          +1 for a
                                                          =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=
=9D or
                                                          =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=
=9D
                                                          claim/header
                                                          parameter.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          --<span class=3D"m=
_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=
<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          *From:
                                                          *Id-event &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Date:
                                                          *Monday, June
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:18 PM<br>
                                                          *To: *Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Cc: *Adam
                                                          Dawes &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          "matake, nov"
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          "Phil Hunt
                                                          (IDM)" &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Subject: *Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Agreed. Note
                                                          that there is
                                                          still lots of
                                                          discussion on
                                                          what should be
                                                          in 3.9.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On Mon, Jun
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:15 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D=
"color:purple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; Than=
ks for
                                                          the pointer
                                                          Dick, very
                                                          good timing
                                                          :-)<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; The i=
ssue
                                                          is described
                                                          by "2.7.
                                                          Cross-JWT
                                                          Confusion" and
                                                          the<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; miti=
gation
                                                          is in "3.9.
                                                          Use Mutually
                                                          Exclusive
                                                          Validation
                                                          Rules for<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; Diff=
erent
                                                          Kinds of
                                                          JWTs",
                                                          specifically
                                                          "Use different
                                                          sets of<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; requ=
ired
                                                          claims...",
                                                          "Use different
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs=
." and
                                                          "Use different
                                                          issuers for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of
                                                          JWTs.".<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; I st=
ill
                                                          think that a
                                                          "type" claim
                                                          would bring a
                                                          lot of clarity
                                                          and<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; safe=
ty.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; Mari=
us<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; On T=
hu,
                                                          Jun 8, 2017 at
                                                          9:59 PM, Dick
                                                          Hardt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; Yaron,
                                                          Mike and I
                                                          just published
                                                          an BCP ID for
                                                          JWT<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-conve=
rted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwl=
NKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7Xv=
Z5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D=
"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</=
span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 9:02
                                                          PM Adam Dawes
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a><br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I
                                                          was initially
                                                          a fan of
                                                          keeping SETS
                                                          to be very
                                                          similar to<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id
                                                          tokens but I
                                                          now think this
                                                          is a better
                                                          plan.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 6:56
                                                          PM matake, nov
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; +1
                                                          especially for
                                                          "type"<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; 2017-06-09
                                                          10:32
                                                          GMT+09:00 Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; +1<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; Phil<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt; On
                                                          Jun 8, 2017,
                                                          at 6:28 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"t=
rue"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          There were a
                                                          couple of
                                                          proposals on
                                                          how to<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          distinguish
                                                          SETs from Id
                                                          Tokens and
                                                          Access Tokens
                                                          in<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; such a
                                                          way that naive
implementations will not<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; confuse
                                                          one for the
                                                          other and open
                                                          up security<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          vulnerabilities.<b=
r>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          There is also
                                                          another
                                                          important
                                                          requirement:
                                                          the<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; SET
                                                          issuer in some
                                                          cases must be
                                                          different from
                                                          the<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; "sub"
                                                          issuer. This
                                                          is the case of
                                                          an RP sending
                                                          SETs<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; to an
                                                          IdP.<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          With these
                                                          requirements
                                                          in mind I
                                                          propose the<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          following:<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt; -
                                                          both "sub" and
                                                          "iss" to be
                                                          defined at the
                                                          event<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; level<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt; -
                                                          "iss" at event
                                                          level and at
                                                          top SET level
                                                          can<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; be
                                                          different<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt; -
                                                          "iss" and
                                                          "sub" at event
                                                          level can be
                                                          different<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; across
                                                          events in the
                                                          same SET<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt; -
                                                          "sub" should
                                                          NOT be present
                                                          at the top SET<br>=

                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; level
                                                          (this solves
                                                          the
                                                          disambiguation),
                                                          please note<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; "should"
                                                          and not "must"<br>=

                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          This solution
                                                          also allows
                                                          different
                                                          profiles that<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; define
                                                          event types to
                                                          define
                                                          additional
                                                          claims<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; related
                                                          to sub (like
                                                          email or
                                                          phone_number)
                                                          and<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; since
                                                          all these
                                                          claims will be
                                                          at the event
                                                          level<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; there
                                                          will be no
                                                          collisions or
                                                          ambiguity.<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          Another
                                                          proposal
                                                          (which I
                                                          supported) was
                                                          to<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; define a
                                                          composite
                                                          "aud" claim.
                                                          This is not
                                                          solving<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; the
                                                          requirement
                                                          for a
                                                          distinct&nbsp; SET=

                                                          issuer. Also,<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; having
                                                          the same claim
                                                          name having
                                                          different
                                                          syntax<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; in
                                                          different
                                                          token types
                                                          could lead to
                                                          confusion.<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          And yet
                                                          another
                                                          proposal was
                                                          to introduce a
                                                          new<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; claim
                                                          for JWTs that
                                                          defines a
                                                          "type". This
                                                          is not<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          practical in
                                                          the short
                                                          term, and it
                                                          also is not<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; solving
                                                          the distinct
                                                          issuer
                                                          requirement,
                                                          but I think<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; this is
                                                          something the
                                                          JWT group
                                                          should
                                                          seriously<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          consider.<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          Thoughts?<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          Marius<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          __________________=
____________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list</div>=

                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" mo=
z-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" m=
oz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">I<wbr>d-event@ietf.org<=
/span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dht=
tps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D=
5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-sen=
d=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://urldefense.<wbr>proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-<wbr>3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_<wbr>listinfo_id-2Devent&a=
mp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;<wbr>c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057S=
bK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<=
wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<wbr>jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6=
Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;
                                                          __________________=
____________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-se=
nd=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span c=
lass=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-=
send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>=
&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dht=
tps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D=
P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-sen=
d=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/<wbr>mailman/li=
stinfo/id-event</span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp;
                                                          __________________=
____________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp; Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp;<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_498127=
282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &nbsp;<span class=3D=
"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&=
amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVIT=
X9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/id-event<=
/span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385=
159988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          Adam Dawes |
                                                          Sr. Product
                                                          Manager |<a href=3D=
"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a><br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          |<a href=3D"tel:%2=
B1%20650-214-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">+1 <span id=3D"gc-number-17" class=3D"gc-cs-link" title=3D"Call with Goo=
gle Voice">650-214-2410</span></span></a><br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"tel=
:%28650%29%20214-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">tel:(650)%20214-2410</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          __________________=
____________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159=
988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event=
@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159=
988apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpo=
int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrK=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_=
3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.=
org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
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p; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_498127282251743230m-4629842569385159988apple-co=
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                                                          <a href=3D"mailto:=
Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:/=
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o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
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shmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7T=
mGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a></p>
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in:0in
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:12pt;font-family:'Times
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round-color:white">
                                                          <br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto:=
Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:/=
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o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
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shmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7T=
mGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a></div>
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                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto:=
Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          <a href=3D"https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKH=
shmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7T=
mGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<wbr>00Y=
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p;e=3D</span></a></div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
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                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto:=
Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8Q=
Dl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEY=
JhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;backgroun=
d-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial">______________________________<wbr>_________________</pre>
                                                          <pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;backgroun=
d-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial">Id-event mailing list</pre>
                                                          <pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;backgroun=
d-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true=
"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a></pre>
                                                          <pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;backgroun=
d-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqi=
TsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-=
event</span></a></pre>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto:=
Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8Q=
Dl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEY=
JhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"marg=
in:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif;backg=
round-color:white">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div style=3D"margin=
:0in
                                                          0in
                                                          0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:'Times
                                                          New
                                                          Roman',serif">
                                                          &nbsp;</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                  <blockquote style=3D"margi=
n-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div style=3D"margin:0=
in
                                                        0in
                                                        0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:'Times
                                                        New
                                                        Roman',serif">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                        Id-event mailing
                                                        list<br>
                                                        <a href=3D"mailto:Id=
-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
                                                        <a href=3D"https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_=
id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJh=
Lu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a></div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                      </div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times
                                        New Roman',serif">
                                        &nbsp;</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-e=
vent@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMDa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DBdig6jCQcXk91JEeOcsSzadVRk9IgwZ5HRkh8f=
0EjfA&amp;s=3DPnOQEkjo50Ss_9xMzvLfAShD4e4QDhX6LsSMHSX0f8Q&amp;e=3D">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><=
span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLI=
Gk&amp;m=3DBdig6jCQcXk91JEeOcsSzadVRk9IgwZ5HRkh8f0EjfA&amp;s=3DPnOQEkjo50Ss_=
9xMzvLfAShD4e4QDhX6LsSMHSX0f8Q&amp;e=3D">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DBdig6jCQcXk91JEeOcsSzadVRk9IgwZ5HRkh8f0E=
jfA&amp;s=3DPnOQEkjo50Ss_9xMzvLfAShD4e4QDhX6LsSMHSX0f8Q&amp;e=3D</a> </span>=
<br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:30:21 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC Token Draft
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Digital identities were an implicit assumption, definitely for me, and we
should make sure that SETs can be profiled for other use cases as well (for
example networking protocols). Thanks for clarifying this Mike.

At the same time, digital identities are the main driver of requirements
for security events, we have to make sure SETs are a good fit for them.
Having the SET spec on its own being both insecure (the confusion problem)
and not covering all uses cases (RP created SETs) does not sound right to
me. Asking each profile to address these issues is not reasonable in my
view.

The solutions proposed so far do not prevent in any way non-digital
identity profiles.

As Phil mentioned, I think the main disagreement is around the level of
complexity. Another smaller disagreement to me is considering digital
identity use cases as advanced or special. To me these are the main use
cases, I would like to see a solid solution for them.

All that being said, I think we made good progress on today's call and I am
sure that face to face meetings will help a lot. Looking forward to crack
these issues in Prague.

Marius


On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> It seems to me that most of the discussions motiving the proposals being
> made have been implicitly assuming that SETs are about digital identities=
.
> In many of our use cases, they will be, which is great.  I fully support
> structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs of those use
> cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from the digital
> identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the digital identi=
ty =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the
> event structure, when needed.
>
>
>
> But just like JWTs are great for digital identities (consider ID Tokens)
> but are used in completely unrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID
> standards), SETs should be great for digital identities (consider RISC an=
d
> SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.
>
>
>
> In some use cases there will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be very
> different from those we use for identities.  We would be doing everyone a
> disservice to many use cases if we tried to force that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be
> present at the event level, when those profiles don=E2=80=99t need it the=
re.
>
>
>
> We shouldn=E2=80=99t make every SET use more complicated syntax that only=
 more
> advanced use cases actually need.  Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D and
> other claims descriptions as they are.  Right now it=E2=80=99s general pu=
rpose and
> simple.  Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] * On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for
> SEC Token Draft
>
>
>
> Agreed to all your comments.  And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not th=
e best name.
> Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the moment.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the additional example.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.
>
>
>
> The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy
> across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) but it is
> enforcing a single profile per SET.  As you mention, not sure if this is
> good or bad.
>
>
>
> Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot
> come up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need
> something along with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub"
> and other right under "events"?
>
>
>
> Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs between an email
> provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "email" attribute
> (or "phone_number"):
>
> {
>
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
>
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>
>    "events": {
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_event_risc__account-2Ddisabled&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-H=
YjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DbZx_nhaRe7CCaR1Y0EIipxH8RqWCWDoBO4=
_mfvmfyEU&e=3D>":
> {
>
>        "reason": "hijacking",
>
>        "email": "bob@example.com",
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
> in SET.  I=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can compare.
>
>
>
> Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in th=
e
> next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Three current draft examples:
>
>
>
> 1. A SCIM Event looks like:
>
> {
>
>   "*jti*": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "*iat*": 1458496025,
>
>   "*iss*": "https://security.example.com",
>
>   "*aud*": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>   ],
>
>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>
>   "events": {
>
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> 2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>
>    {
>
>       "*iss*": "https://server.example.com",
>
>       "sub": "248289761001",
>
>       "*aud*": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>       "*iat*": 1471566154,
>
>       "*jti*": "bWJq",
>
>       "*sid*": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>
>       "events": {
>
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_event_backchannel-2Dlogout&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMi=
u66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2=
dXoBQ&e=3D>":
> {}
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
>
>
> 3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
>
> {
>
>    "*iss*": "https://rp.example.com",
>
>    "*aud*": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>    "*iat*": 1471566154,
>
>    "*jti*": "bWJq",
>
>    "events": {
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_event_risc-2Dlogout&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
bK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-F=
de1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DBzVN38xROsCs1SvZlBnTmxxBVq0Lh_ps97P5cYE7qX4&e=
=3D>":
> {
>
>        "sub": "248289761001",
>
>        "*iss*": "https://server.example.com=E2=80=9D,
>
>        "*sid*": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> I believe the concerns here are:
>
>
>
>    - Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsiste=
nt and moves around.
>    - SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use i=
ts own attribute
>    in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D is valid
>    to use in SET than profiling specs can redefine sub for their own
>    purposes.  Is this good or bad?
>    - Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are
>    parsing a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to
>    fully parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at stru=
cture
>    2 or 3.  IOW a lot of implementations have to always check for an embe=
dded
>    =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
>    - A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are
>    expressed, should they share a common top-level attribute. How does th=
is
>    improve or complicate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Figu=
re 1
>    shows an event with a localized extension that adds value without impa=
cting
>    inter-op.
>    - =E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-=
level. We=E2=80=99ve
>    been discussing that additional attributes should be in the payload. I=
tem 3
>    shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?
>
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
>
> A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss fo=
r
> identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This would
> exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that subject
> information is always in the payload.
>
>
>
> B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object.
> Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects are
> addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format might l=
ook
> something like:
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "*jti*": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "*iat*": 1458496025,
>
>   "*iss*": "https://security.example.com",
>
>   "*aud*": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>   ],
>
>   "target":{
>
>     "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>
>     "*iss*": "https://scim.example.com"
>
>   },
>
>   "events": {
>
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> Here is an example modified logout
>
>    {
>
>       "*iss*": "https://server.example.com",
>
>       "*aud*": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>       "*iat*": 1471566154,
>
>       "*jti*": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         "sub": "248289761001",
>
>         "*sid*": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
>
>       }
>
>       "events": {
>
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_event_backchannel-2Dlogout&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMi=
u66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2=
dXoBQ&e=3D>":
> {}
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
>
>
> The above formats address the following:
>
>
>
> * Consistent structures
>
> * Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common
> attribute
>
> * Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible (not
> sure if this is a plus or minus)
>
> * No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
>
> * SET is substantially different such that existing access token and ID
> token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
>
> * target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =E2=80=9C=
type=E2=80=9D
> such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and so on.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8d=
xJ7sSYyk&s=3DVOv1b-76jbGOvpEGO_O-K9g1hDpBzM3wQkPtLKPaSVQ&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
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>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Digi=
tal identities were an implicit assumption, definitely for me, and we shoul=
d make sure that SETs can be profiled for other use cases as well (for exam=
ple networking protocols). Thanks for clarifying this Mike.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">At the same time, dig=
ital identities are the main driver of requirements for security events, we=
 have to make sure SETs are a good fit for them. Having the SET spec on its=
 own being both insecure (the confusion problem) and not covering all uses =
cases (RP created SETs) does not sound right to me. Asking each profile to =
address these issues is not reasonable in my view.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">The solutions proposed so far =
do not prevent in any way non-digital identity profiles.</div><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">As Phil mentioned, I thi=
nk the main disagreement is around the level of complexity. Another smaller=
 disagreement to me is considering digital identity use cases as advanced o=
r special. To me these are the main use cases, I would like to see a solid =
solution for them.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">All that being said, I think we made good progress on today&#3=
9;s call and I am sure that face to face meetings will help a lot. Looking =
forward to crack these issues in Prague.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Marius</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_4515614974277853904WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that mo=
st of the discussions motiving the proposals being made have been implicitl=
y assuming that SETs are about digital identities.=C2=A0 In many of our use=
 cases, they will be, which is great.=C2=A0 I
 fully support structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs of =
those use cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from the digi=
tal identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the digital iden=
tity =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the event structure, when needed.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But just like JWTs are=
 great for digital identities (consider ID Tokens) but are used in complete=
ly unrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID standards), SETs should be gre=
at for digital identities (consider
 RISC and SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">In some use cases ther=
e will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may =
be very different from those we use for identities.=C2=A0 We would be doing=
 everyone a disservice to many use cases if we tried to force that =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be present at the event level, when those profil=
es don=E2=80=99t need it there.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We shouldn=E2=80=99t m=
ake every SET use more complicated syntax that only more advanced use cases=
 actually need.=C2=A0 Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
and other claims descriptions as they are.=C2=A0 Right now it=E2=80=99s gen=
eral
 purpose and simple.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4515614974277853904__MailEndCompose" cl=
ass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a=
></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@=
ietf.<wbr>org</a>] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Phil Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples fo=
r SEC Token Draft<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed to all your comments.=C2=A0 And yes, =E2=80=
=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not the best name.=C2=A0 Just can=E2=80=99t think of =
one at the moment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the additional example. =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Oracle Corporation, Iden=
tity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"http://www.in=
dependentid.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.h=
unt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">The top level &quot;target&quot; attribute is inte=
resting, it reduces redundancy across events (when multiple events are pres=
ent in one SET) but it is enforcing a single profile per
 SET.=C2=A0 As you mention, not sure if this is good or bad.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, &q=
uot;target&quot;, but I cannot come up with a better name. &quot;target&quo=
t; sounds like &quot;audience&quot;. We need something along with &quot;eve=
nts subject&quot;.
 Maybe simply nest the &quot;iss&quot;, &quot;sub&quot; and other right und=
er &quot;events&quot;?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Here is one more example of a SET not using &quot;=
sub&quot;. SETs between an email provider and an implicit RP would use the =
OIDC defined &quot;email&quot; attribute (or &quot;phone_number&quot;):<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">{</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://rp.e=
xample.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://rp.example.com</a>&=
quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quo=
t;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-seri=
f"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;iat&quot;: 1471566154,</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;jti&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;events&quot;: {</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_risc__account-2Ddi=
sabled&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&a=
mp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg=
-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DbZx_nhaRe7CCaR1Y0EIipxH8RqWCWDoBO4_mfvm=
fyEU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net=
/<wbr>event/risc//account-disabled</a>&quot;:
 {</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;reason&quot;: &quot;hijack=
ing&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica=
&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;email&quot;: &quot;<a href=
=3D"mailto:bob@example.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">bob@example.=
com</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Marius<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt<span c=
lass=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.h=
unt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to=
 handle use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.=C2=
=A0 I=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can compare.<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Please add your comments. It would be good to reac=
h some conclusion in the next few days if we are going to change the draft =
for Prague.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Three current draft examples:<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">1. A SCIM Event looks like:<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">{=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd=
0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://securi=
ty.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://security.exampl=
e.com</a>&quot;<wbr>, =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/=
98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.=
example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/=
5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.=
example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>], =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.=
com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">htt=
ps://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>&quot;,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordRe=
set&quot;: { }<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-ou=
t) looks like:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://server.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://ser=
ver.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001&quot;=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&=
quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 1471566154,<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>sid</u>&quot;: &quot;08a5019c-17=
e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_45156149742778=
53904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_backchannel-2=
Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&=
amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66J=
g-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZkadGp2-27P2=
dXoBQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.ne=
t/<wbr>event/backchannel-logout</a>&quot;:
 {}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (dif=
ferent issuer):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://=
rp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://rp.example.com<=
/a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 1471566154,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_risc-2Dlogout&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5b=
iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7=
TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DBzVN38xROsCs1SvZlBnTmxxBVq0Lh_ps97P5cYE7qX4&amp;e=
=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>even=
t/risc-logout</a>&quot;:
 {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_451561497427785=
3904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001=
&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_451561497427785=
3904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://server.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https=
://server.example.com</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<u>sid</u>&quot;: &quot;0=
8a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">I believe the concerns here are:<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent an=
d moves around. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its ow=
n attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).=C2=A0 As long as=
 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can rede=
fine sub
 for their own purposes.=C2=A0 Is this good or bad?<u></u><u></u></span></l=
i><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing a S=
ET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully parse the=
 entire object to determine if they are looking
 at structure 2 or 3.=C2=A0 IOW a lot of implementations have to always che=
ck for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct s=
ubject.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, sho=
uld they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or compl=
icate multi-type events?=C2=A0 In the draft, note
 that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized extension that adds value wi=
thout impacting inter-op.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-level=
. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes should be in the=
 payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?<u></u><u></u><=
/span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">A.=C2=A0 We could say that all SETs must embed sub=
 and iss (if they use iss for identifying subjects) in the payload.=C2=A0 S=
ee example 3 above.=C2=A0 This would exclude options 1 and 2
 and at least make it consistent that subject information is always in the =
payload. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">B. A new top-level attribute could be defined whic=
h is a JSON object. Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how =
their subjects are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.=C2=A0
 A new common SET format might look something like:<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">{=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd=
0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://securi=
ty.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://security.exampl=
e.com</a>&quot;<wbr>, =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/=
98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.=
example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/=
5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.=
example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>], =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space"><span style=3D"color:#0433ff">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"col=
or:#0433ff">&quot;target&quot;:{</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif;color:#0433ff">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_45156149742778=
53904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab=
61e7521d9</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Monaco&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif;color:#0433ff">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_45156149742778=
53904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https:=
//scim.example.com</a>&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif;color:#0433ff">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>},</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordRe=
set&quot;: { }<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Here is an example modified logout=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a=
 href=3D"https://server.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ht=
tps://server.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: &quot;s6=
BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 14715661=
54,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;bW=
Jq=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_45156149742778=
53904apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &quot;24828976100=
1&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>sid</u>&quot;: &=
quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4515614974277853904ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_event_back=
channel-2Dlogout&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-=
HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DRgQwH23s5wYp0sjLlASIdNXppuZka=
dGp2-27P2dXoBQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.=
openid.net/<wbr>event/backchannel-logout</a>&quot;:
 {}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">The above formats address the following:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* Consistent structures<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* Flexibility for profiles to target differently b=
ut using a common attribute<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* Multiple event types share a common target and m=
ust be compatible (not sure if this is a plus or minus)<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* SET is substantially different such that existin=
g access token and ID token code will reject consistently (because sub is m=
issing)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* target could also have an attribute that indicat=
es the target =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPa=
ddress, and so on.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archit=
ect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3DVOv1b-76j=
bGOvpEGO_O-K9g1hDpBzM3wQkPtLKPaSVQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">www.independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dg5E8l-HYjMiu66Jg-Fde1cBg36X7TuuHp8dxJ7sSYyk&amp;s=3Dq5FKGtE3iGS4X-=
y8K6yth4An24cPZyVXpNNdMPA8rwU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113718b25ef44c0552933214--


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To: Andrew Nash <andrew@confyrm.com>
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On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Nash <andrew@confyrm.com> wrote:

> Hey Folks,
>
> sorry to be inserted late - it appears that I have not been getting
> updates from the mail server
>

The mail server sent me a message earlier that I have to reactivate my
account because of bounces, not sure what's up with that.


>
> Looking over the 2 threads that appear to be related to this topic trying
> to catch up it seems that a lot of issues have been juxtaposed
>
> it seems to me that continued use of the top level subject name is
> reasonable as long as the SET/event level subject can be included as well
>

Yes, we could allow sub at both levels. Honestly not sure if that's a good
idea, flexibility leads to complexity.

Phil proposed to group all sub related attributes in one top level
attribute for now called "target" (which would be at the same level as
"events"). This brings sub higher up and gets rid of redundancy, but then
all events in one SET must belong to the same profile (which maybe is a
good thing).


> --Andrew
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
> wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that most of the discussions motiving the proposals being
>> made have been implicitly assuming that SETs are about digital identitie=
s.
>> In many of our use cases, they will be, which is great.  I fully support
>> structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs of those use
>> cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from the digital
>> identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the digital ident=
ity =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the
>> event structure, when needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> But just like JWTs are great for digital identities (consider ID Tokens)
>> but are used in completely unrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID
>> standards), SETs should be great for digital identities (consider RISC a=
nd
>> SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.
>>
>>
>>
>> In some use cases there will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be very
>> different from those we use for identities.  We would be doing everyone =
a
>> disservice to many use cases if we tried to force that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be
>> present at the event level, when those profiles don=E2=80=99t need it th=
ere.
>>
>>
>>
>> We shouldn=E2=80=99t make every SET use more complicated syntax that onl=
y more
>> advanced use cases actually need.  Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D and
>> other claims descriptions as they are.  Right now it=E2=80=99s general p=
urpose and
>> simple.  Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] * On Behalf Of *Phil
>> Hunt
>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM
>> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for
>> SEC Token Draft
>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed to all your comments.  And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not t=
he best name.
>> Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the additional example.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.
>>
>>
>>
>> The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy
>> across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) but it is
>> enforcing a single profile per SET.  As you mention, not sure if this is
>> good or bad.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot
>> come up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need
>> something along with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub=
"
>> and other right under "events"?
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs between an email
>> provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "email" attribute
>> (or "phone_number"):
>>
>> {
>>
>>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com",
>>
>>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>    "iat": 1471566154,
>>
>>    "jti": "bWJq",
>>
>>    "events": {
>>
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled": {
>>
>>        "reason": "hijacking",
>>
>>        "email": "bob@example.com",
>>
>>      }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Marius
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
>> in SET.  I=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can compare.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in
>> the next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Three current draft examples:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. A SCIM Event looks like:
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "*jti*": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "*iat*": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "*iss*": "https://security.example.com",
>>
>>   "*aud*": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>   ],
>>
>>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>
>>   "events": {
>>
>>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>>
>>   }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>>
>>    {
>>
>>       "*iss*": "https://server.example.com",
>>
>>       "sub": "248289761001",
>>
>>       "*aud*": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>       "*iat*": 1471566154,
>>
>>       "*jti*": "bWJq",
>>
>>       "*sid*": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>>
>>       "events": {
>>
>>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>>
>>       }
>>
>>    }
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
>>
>> {
>>
>>    "*iss*": "https://rp.example.com",
>>
>>    "*aud*": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>    "*iat*": 1471566154,
>>
>>    "*jti*": "bWJq",
>>
>>    "events": {
>>
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout": {
>>
>>        "sub": "248289761001",
>>
>>        "*iss*": "https://server.example.com=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>        "*sid*": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>
>>      }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe the concerns here are:
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsist=
ent and moves around.
>>    - SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use =
its own
>>    attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
>>    is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can redefine sub for thei=
r own
>>    purposes.  Is this good or bad?
>>    - Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are
>>    parsing a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have t=
o
>>    fully parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at str=
ucture
>>    2 or 3.  IOW a lot of implementations have to always check for an emb=
edded
>>    =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
>>    - A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are
>>    expressed, should they share a common top-level attribute. How does t=
his
>>    improve or complicate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Fig=
ure 1
>>    shows an event with a localized extension that adds value without imp=
acting
>>    inter-op.
>>    - =E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top=
-level. We=E2=80=99ve
>>    been discussing that additional attributes should be in the payload. =
Item 3
>>    shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?
>>
>>
>>
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss
>> for identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This wo=
uld
>> exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that subject
>> information is always in the payload.
>>
>>
>>
>> B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object.
>> Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects ar=
e
>> addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format might =
look
>> something like:
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "*jti*": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "*iat*": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "*iss*": "https://security.example.com",
>>
>>   "*aud*": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>   ],
>>
>>   "target":{
>>
>>     "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>
>>     "*iss*": "https://scim.example.com"
>>
>>   },
>>
>>   "events": {
>>
>>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>>
>>   }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is an example modified logout
>>
>>    {
>>
>>       "*iss*": "https://server.example.com",
>>
>>       "*aud*": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>       "*iat*": 1471566154,
>>
>>       "*jti*": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         "sub": "248289761001",
>>
>>         "*sid*": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
>>
>>       }
>>
>>       "events": {
>>
>>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout": {}
>>
>>       }
>>
>>    }
>>
>>
>>
>> The above formats address the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> * Consistent structures
>>
>> * Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common
>> attribute
>>
>> * Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible (not
>> sure if this is a plus or minus)
>>
>> * No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
>>
>> * SET is substantially different such that existing access token and ID
>> token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
>>
>> * target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =E2=80=
=9Ctype=E2=80=9D
>> such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and so on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>

--001a1140f9781a99cd0552935528
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Nash <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:andrew@confyrm.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">andrew@confyrm=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">Hey Folks,<div><br></div><div>sorry to be inserted late - it appears tha=
t I have not been getting updates from the mail server</div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>The mail server sent me a message earlier that I ha=
ve to reactivate my account because of bounces, not sure what&#39;s up with=
 that.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><br></div><div>Looking over the 2 threads that appear to be related =
to this topic trying to catch up it seems that a lot of issues have been ju=
xtaposed=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>it seems to me that continued use o=
f the top level subject name is reasonable as long as the SET/event level s=
ubject can be included as well=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Yes, we could allow sub at both levels. Honestly not sure if that&#39=
;s a good idea, flexibility leads to complexity.</div><div><br></div><div>P=
hil proposed to group all sub related attributes in one top level attribute=
 for now called &quot;target&quot; (which would be at the same level as &qu=
ot;events&quot;). This brings sub higher up and gets rid of redundancy, but=
 then all events in one SET must belong to the same profile (which maybe is=
 a good thing).</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div=
>--Andrew=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></font></span></div><div=
 class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It seems to me that mo=
st of the discussions motiving the proposals being made have been implicitl=
y assuming that SETs are about digital identities.=C2=A0 In many of our use=
 cases, they will be, which is great.=C2=A0 I
 fully support structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs of =
those use cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from the digi=
tal identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the digital iden=
tity =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the event structure, when needed.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">But just like JWTs are=
 great for digital identities (consider ID Tokens) but are used in complete=
ly unrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID standards), SETs should be gre=
at for digital identities (consider
 RISC and SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">In some use cases ther=
e will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may =
be very different from those we use for identities.=C2=A0 We would be doing=
 everyone a disservice to many use cases if we tried to force that =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be present at the event level, when those profil=
es don=E2=80=99t need it there.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">We shouldn=E2=80=99t m=
ake every SET use more complicated syntax that only more advanced use cases=
 actually need.=C2=A0 Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
and other claims descriptions as they are.=C2=A0 Right now it=E2=80=99s gen=
eral
 purpose and simple.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-4087663142099953871_m_4008466706979525=
098__MailEndCompose" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf=
</a>.<wbr>org] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Phil Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples fo=
r SEC Token Draft<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed to all your comments.=C2=A0 And yes, =E2=80=
=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not the best name.=C2=A0 Just can=E2=80=99t think of =
one at the moment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the additional example. =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Oracle Corporation, Iden=
tity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a class=3D"cremed">www.=
independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a class=3D"cremed">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<=
a class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">The top level &quot;target&quot; attribute is inte=
resting, it reduces redundancy across events (when multiple events are pres=
ent in one SET) but it is enforcing a single profile per
 SET.=C2=A0 As you mention, not sure if this is good or bad.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, &q=
uot;target&quot;, but I cannot come up with a better name. &quot;target&quo=
t; sounds like &quot;audience&quot;. We need something along with &quot;eve=
nts subject&quot;.
 Maybe simply nest the &quot;iss&quot;, &quot;sub&quot; and other right und=
er &quot;events&quot;?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Here is one more example of a SET not using &quot;=
sub&quot;. SETs between an email provider and an implicit RP would use the =
OIDC defined &quot;email&quot; attribute (or &quot;phone_number&quot;):<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">{</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a class=3D"cremed">htt=
ps://rp.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-seri=
f"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;iat&quot;: 1471566154,</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;jti&quot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;events&quot;: {</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a class=3D"cremed">http://schema=
s.openid.net/ev<wbr>ent/risc//account-disabled</a>&quot;:
 {</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;reason&quot;: &quot;hijack=
ing&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica=
&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;email&quot;: &quot;<a clas=
s=3D"cremed">bob@example.com</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Marius<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt<span c=
lass=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span clas=
s=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to=
 handle use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.=C2=
=A0 I=E2=80=99d like to give some examples that we can compare.<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Please add your comments. It would be good to reac=
h some conclusion in the next few days if we are going to change the draft =
for Prague.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Three current draft examples:<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">1. A SCIM Event looks like:<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">{=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;3d0=
c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 145849602=
5,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://security.example.com</a>&quot;<wbr>, =C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: [<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_400846=
6706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a class=3D"cremed">=
https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;<wbr=
>,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_400846=
6706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a class=3D"cremed">=
https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>], =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &quot;<a class=
=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</=
a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_400846=
6706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;urn:ietf:params:scim=
:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;: { }<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-ou=
t) looks like:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&qu=
ot;: &quot;<a class=3D"cremed">https://server.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quot;: &q=
uot;248289761001&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&qu=
ot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&qu=
ot;: 1471566154,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&qu=
ot;: &quot;bWJq&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>sid</u>&qu=
ot;: &quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02&quot;,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;:=
 {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099=
953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a cla=
ss=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/e<wbr>vent/backchannel-logout</a>&q=
uot;:
 {}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (dif=
ferent issuer):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &qu=
ot;<a class=3D"cremed">https://rp.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: &qu=
ot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 147=
1566154,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &qu=
ot;bWJq&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_=
4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a class=3D"cr=
emed">http://schemas.openid.net/e<wbr>vent/risc-logout</a>&quot;:
 {<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-40876631420999=
53871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&quo=
t;: &quot;248289761001&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-40876631420999=
53871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss<=
/u>&quot;: &quot;<a class=3D"cremed">https://server.example.com</a>=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<u>sid</u>&quot;: &quot;0=
8a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_=
4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466=
706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">I believe the concerns here are:<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent an=
d moves around. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its ow=
n attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).=C2=A0 As long as=
 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can rede=
fine sub
 for their own purposes.=C2=A0 Is this good or bad?<u></u><u></u></span></l=
i><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing a S=
ET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully parse the=
 entire object to determine if they are looking
 at structure 2 or 3.=C2=A0 IOW a lot of implementations have to always che=
ck for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct s=
ubject.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, sho=
uld they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or compl=
icate multi-type events?=C2=A0 In the draft, note
 that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized extension that adds value wi=
thout impacting inter-op.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the top-level=
. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes should be in the=
 payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is correct?<u></u><u></u><=
/span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">A.=C2=A0 We could say that all SETs must embed sub=
 and iss (if they use iss for identifying subjects) in the payload.=C2=A0 S=
ee example 3 above.=C2=A0 This would exclude options 1 and 2
 and at least make it consistent that subject information is always in the =
payload. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">B. A new top-level attribute could be defined whic=
h is a JSON object. Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how =
their subjects are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.=C2=A0
 A new common SET format might look something like:<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">{=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;3d0=
c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 145849602=
5,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://security.example.com</a>&quot;<wbr>, =C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: [<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_400846=
6706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a class=3D"cremed">=
https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;<wbr=
>,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_400846=
6706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<a class=3D"cremed">=
https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>], =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:#0433ff">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan><span style=3D"color:#0433ff">&quot;target&quot;:{</span><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif;color:#0433ff">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099=
953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&qu=
ot;: &quot;<a class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142d=
f96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif;color:#0433ff">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099=
953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;<u>iss=
</u>&quot;: &quot;<a class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif;color:#0433ff">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>},</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_400846=
6706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;urn:ietf:params:scim=
:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;: { }<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979=
525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Here is an example modified logout=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>iss</u>&quot;: &quot;<a=
 class=3D"cremed">https://server.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>aud</u>&quot;: &quot;s6=
BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>iat</u>&quot;: 14715661=
54,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>jti</u>&quot;: &quot;bW=
Jq=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=
=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099=
953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&quot;sub&qu=
ot;: &quot;248289761001&quot;,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<u>sid</u>&quot;: &=
quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m=
_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>}<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a class=3D"cremed"=
>http://schemas.openid.net/e<wbr>vent/backchannel-logout</a>&quot;:
 {}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Mon=
aco&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">The above formats address the following:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* Consistent structures<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* Flexibility for profiles to target differently b=
ut using a common attribute<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* Multiple event types share a common target and m=
ust be compatible (not sure if this is a plus or minus)<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* SET is substantially different such that existin=
g access token and ID token code will reject consistently (because sub is m=
issing)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">* target could also have an attribute that indicat=
es the target =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPa=
ddress, and so on.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archit=
ect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/</a>l<wbr>istinfo/id-event<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Andrew Nash <andrew@confyrm.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
References: <4AC644C3-4AF5-4059-9AC6-D90072FE09F1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJp+uz6wCoMWWazHY-WWX3rFWanbQp31gOmd7=c-3J_P_UA@mail.gmail.com> <5538EF8A-ADFF-4EB4-96DC-6932058627C5@oracle.com> <CY4PR21MB050453C8425C80321411AE3CF5DB0@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAACGEFdO+DG0nZX6uudWn9JMWV_8RF8F55B3OpwZvbRGWvJtKg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpLvRmPtyoyja9f19efyR=BKq=bnjYnH5ZzMDdBVABOTNw@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for SEC Token Draft
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I=E2=80=99ve been noticing a number of people are bouncing particularly =
on Google domains.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Nash <andrew@confyrm.com =
<mailto:andrew@confyrm.com>> wrote:
> Hey Folks,
>=20
> sorry to be inserted late - it appears that I have not been getting =
updates from the mail server
>=20
> The mail server sent me a message earlier that I have to reactivate my =
account because of bounces, not sure what's up with that.
> =20
>=20
> Looking over the 2 threads that appear to be related to this topic =
trying to catch up it seems that a lot of issues have been juxtaposed=20
>=20
> it seems to me that continued use of the top level subject name is =
reasonable as long as the SET/event level subject can be included as =
well=20
>=20
> Yes, we could allow sub at both levels. Honestly not sure if that's a =
good idea, flexibility leads to complexity.
>=20
> Phil proposed to group all sub related attributes in one top level =
attribute for now called "target" (which would be at the same level as =
"events"). This brings sub higher up and gets rid of redundancy, but =
then all events in one SET must belong to the same profile (which maybe =
is a good thing).
>=20
>=20
> --Andrew=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> It seems to me that most of the discussions motiving the proposals =
being made have been implicitly assuming that SETs are about digital =
identities.  In many of our use cases, they will be, which is great.  I =
fully support structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs =
of those use cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from =
the digital identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the =
digital identity =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the event structure, when =
needed.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> But just like JWTs are great for digital identities (consider ID =
Tokens) but are used in completely unrelated ways as well (such as =
Caller-ID standards), SETs should be great for digital identities =
(consider RISC and SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use =
cases.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> In some use cases there will be only one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be very different from those we use for =
identities.  We would be doing everyone a disservice to many use cases =
if we tried to force that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
be present at the event level, when those profiles don=E2=80=99t need it =
there.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We shouldn=E2=80=99t make every SET use more complicated syntax that =
only more advanced use cases actually need.  Therefore, we should leave =
the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and other claims descriptions as they are.  =
Right now it=E2=80=99s general purpose and simple.  Let=E2=80=99s not =
needlessly break that.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                        -- Mike
>=20
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf>.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative subject exammples for =
SEC Token Draft
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Agreed to all your comments.  And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not =
the best name.  Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the moment.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Thanks for the additional example. =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>=20
> @independentid
>=20
> www.independentid.com <>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <>
> =20
>=20
> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<>> wrote:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces redundancy =
across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) but it is =
enforcing a single profile per SET.  As you mention, not sure if this is =
good or bad.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but I cannot =
come up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We need =
something along with "events subject". Maybe simply nest the "iss", =
"sub" and other right under "events"?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs between an =
email provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined "email" =
attribute (or "phone_number"):
>=20
> {
>=20
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com <>",
>=20
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>=20
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>=20
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>=20
>    "events": {
>=20
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc//account-disabled <>": {
>=20
>        "reason": "hijacking",
>=20
>        "email": "bob@example.com <>",
>=20
>      }
>=20
>    }
>=20
> }
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <>> =
wrote:
>=20
> We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.  I=E2=80=99d =
like to give some examples that we can compare.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some conclusion in =
the next few days if we are going to change the draft for Prague.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Three current draft examples:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> 1. A SCIM Event looks like:
>=20
> {=20
>=20
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>=20
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>=20
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com <>", =20
>=20
>   "aud": [
>=20
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 <>",
>=20
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 <>"
>=20
>   ], =20
>=20
>   "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<>",
>=20
>   "events": {
>=20
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>=20
>   }
>=20
> }
>=20
> =20
>=20
> 2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks like:
>=20
>    {
>=20
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com <>",
>=20
>       "sub": "248289761001",
>=20
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>=20
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>=20
>       "jti": "bWJq",
>=20
>       "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02",
>=20
>       "events": {
>=20
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout <>": {}
>=20
>       }
>=20
>    }
>=20
> =20
>=20
> 3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different issuer):
>=20
> {
>=20
>    "iss": "https://rp.example.com <>",
>=20
>    "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>=20
>    "iat": 1471566154,
>=20
>    "jti": "bWJq",
>=20
>    "events": {
>=20
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/event/risc-logout <>": {
>=20
>        "sub": "248289761001",
>=20
>        "iss": "https://server.example.com <>=E2=80=9D,
>=20
>        "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>=20
>      }
>=20
>    }
>=20
> }
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I believe the concerns here are:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is inconsistent =
and moves around. =20
> SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it could use its =
own attribute in the payload (introducing more variability).  As long as =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in SET than profiling specs can =
redefine sub for their own purposes.  Is this good or bad?
> Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are parsing =
a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to fully =
parse the entire object to determine if they are looking at structure 2 =
or 3.  IOW a lot of implementations have to always check for an embedded =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the correct subject.
> A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are expressed, =
should they share a common top-level attribute. How does this improve or =
complicate multi-type events?  In the draft, note that Figure 1 shows an =
event with a localized extension that adds value without impacting =
inter-op.
> =E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in the =
top-level. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes =
should be in the payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is =
correct?
> =20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> =20
>=20
> A.  We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss (if they use iss =
for identifying subjects) in the payload.  See example 3 above.  This =
would exclude options 1 and 2 and at least make it consistent that =
subject information is always in the payload. =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON object. =
Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their subjects =
are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.  A new common SET format =
might look something like:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> {=20
>=20
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>=20
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>=20
>   "iss": "https://security.example.com <>", =20
>=20
>   "aud": [
>=20
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 <>",
>=20
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 <>"
>=20
>   ], =20
>=20
>   "target":{
>=20
>     "sub": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<>",
>=20
>     "iss": "https://scim.example.com <>"
>=20
>   },
>=20
>   "events": {
>=20
>     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset": { }
>=20
>   }
>=20
> }
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Here is an example modified logout=20
>=20
>    {
>=20
>       "iss": "https://server.example.com <>",
>=20
>       "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>=20
>       "iat": 1471566154,
>=20
>       "jti": "bWJq=E2=80=9D,
>=20
>       =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{
>=20
>         "sub": "248289761001",
>=20
>         "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D
>=20
>       }
>=20
>       "events": {
>=20
>         "http://schemas.openid.net/event/backchannel-logout <>": {}
>=20
>       }
>=20
>    }
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The above formats address the following:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> * Consistent structures
>=20
> * Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a common =
attribute
>=20
> * Multiple event types share a common target and must be compatible =
(not sure if this is a plus or minus)
>=20
> * No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer
>=20
> * SET is substantially different such that existing access token and =
ID token code will reject consistently (because sub is missing)
>=20
> * target could also have an attribute that indicates the target =
=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, IPaddress, and =
so on.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>=20
> @independentid
>=20
> www.independentid.com <>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <>
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event <>
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DzNO_hBLHPKbL4wzYqvJIK525mHeXlLkmr=
NJMS-1o6Lk&s=3DsHDaBcGGrzLOnn5ZitvEuoKL8Q4-jOH5ynzsF4Aj1Lk&e=3D>listinfo/i=
d-event
>=20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve been noticing a number of people are bouncing =
particularly on Google domains.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
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class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
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class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Jun 22, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Nash <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andrew@confyrm.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">andrew@confyrm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hey Folks,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">sorry to be inserted late - it appears that I have not been =
getting updates from the mail server</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The mail server sent me =
a message earlier that I have to reactivate my account because of =
bounces, not sure what's up with that.</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Looking =
over the 2 threads that appear to be related to this topic trying to =
catch up it seems that a lot of issues have been =
juxtaposed&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">it seems to me that continued use of the top level subject =
name is reasonable as long as the SET/event level subject can be =
included as well&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, we could allow sub at both levels. =
Honestly not sure if that's a good idea, flexibility leads to =
complexity.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Phil=
 proposed to group all sub related attributes in one top level attribute =
for now called "target" (which would be at the same level as "events"). =
This brings sub higher up and gets rid of redundancy, but then all =
events in one SET must belong to the same profile (which maybe is a good =
thing).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">--Andrew&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Mike Jones <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">It seems to =
me that most of the discussions motiving the proposals being made have =
been implicitly assuming that SETs are about digital identities.&nbsp; =
In many of our use cases, they will be, which is great.&nbsp; I
 fully support structing events for identity profiles to meet the needs =
of those use cases, including often having a distinct SET issuer from =
the digital identity =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value and having it and the =
digital identity =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be in the event structure, when =
needed.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">But just =
like JWTs are great for digital identities (consider ID Tokens) but are =
used in completely unrelated ways as well (such as Caller-ID standards), =
SETs should be great for digital identities (consider
 RISC and SCIM profiles) but also be great for unrelated use cases.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">In some use cases there will be only =
one =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be very =
different from those we use for identities.&nbsp; We would be doing =
everyone a disservice to many use cases if we tried to force that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be present at the event level, when those =
profiles don=E2=80=99t need it there.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">We shouldn=E2=80=99t make every SET =
use more complicated syntax that only more advanced use cases actually =
need.&nbsp; Therefore, we should leave the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =
other claims descriptions as they are.&nbsp; Right now it=E2=80=99s =
general
 purpose and simple.&nbsp; Let=E2=80=99s not needlessly break that.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; -- Mike<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><a =
name=3D"m_-4087663142099953871_m_4008466706979525098__MailEndCompose" =
class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></a></p>
<span class=3D""></span>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> =
Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf</a>.<wbr =
class=3D"">org] <b class=3D"">
On Behalf Of </b>Phil Hunt<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:58 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Current vs. alternative =
subject exammples for SEC Token Draft<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed to all your =
comments.&nbsp; And yes, =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D is not the best =
name.&nbsp; Just can=E2=80=99t think of one at the moment.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the additional =
example. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Thanks Phil, concrete examples are very useful.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The top level "target" attribute is interesting, it reduces =
redundancy across events (when multiple events are present in one SET) =
but it is enforcing a single profile per
 SET.&nbsp; As you mention, not sure if this is good or bad.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Also, not sure about the name of the attribute, "target", but =
I cannot come up with a better name. "target" sounds like "audience". We =
need something along with "events subject".
 Maybe simply nest the "iss", "sub" and other right under "events"?<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Here is one more example of a SET not using "sub". SETs =
between an email provider and an implicit RP would use the OIDC defined =
"email" attribute (or "phone_number"):<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">{</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"iss": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://rp.example.com</a>",</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"iat": 1471566154,</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"jti": "bWJq",</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"events": {</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a =
class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/ev<wbr =
class=3D"">ent/risc//account-disabled</a>":
 {</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"reason": "hijacking",</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"email": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">bob@example.com</a>",</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">}</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">
<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Marius<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>wr<wbr class=3D"">ote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">We=E2=80=99ve had a long standing thread on how to handle use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D in SET.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99=
d like to give some examples that we can compare.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Please add your comments. It would be good to reach some =
conclusion in the next few days if we are going to change the draft for =
Prague.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Thanks!<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Three current draft examples:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">1. A SCIM Event looks like:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">{&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">jti</u>": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr class=3D"">d30",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iat</u>": 1458496025,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://security.example.com</a>"<wbr class=3D"">, =
&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">aud</u>": [<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<a class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr =
class=3D"">eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>"<wbr class=3D"">,<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<a class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr =
class=3D"">eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>], &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"sub": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr =
class=3D"">s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"events": {<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr class=3D"">passwordReset": =
{ }<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">2. An OP issued Backchannel Logout (single-sign-out) looks =
like:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;{<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://server.example.com</a>",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"sub": "248289761001",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">aud</u>": "s6BhdRkqt3",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iat</u>": 1471566154,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">jti</u>": "bWJq",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">sid</u>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr class=3D"">843ea02",<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"events": {<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<a class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/e<wbr =
class=3D"">vent/backchannel-logout</a>":
 {}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">3. An RP issued Application Logout Looks like (different =
issuer):<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">{<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://rp.example.com</a>",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">aud</u>": "s6BhdRkqt3",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iat</u>": 1471566154,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">jti</u>": "bWJq",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"events": {<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<a class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/e<wbr =
class=3D"">vent/risc-logout</a>":
 {<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"sub": "248289761001",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://server.example.com</a>=E2=80=9D,<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<u class=3D"">sid</u>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr class=3D"">843ea02"<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">I believe the concerns here are:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<ul type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is =
inconsistent and moves around. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">SCIM could redefine =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a URI or it =
could use its own attribute in the payload (introducing more =
variability).&nbsp; As long as =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is valid to use in =
SET than profiling specs can redefine sub
 for their own purposes.&nbsp; Is this good or bad?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Those writing parsers have to be concerned that when they are =
parsing a SET they need to know the role of the server OR they have to =
fully parse the entire object to determine if they are looking
 at structure 2 or 3.&nbsp; IOW a lot of implementations have to always =
check for an embedded =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D to be sure they have the =
correct subject.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">A concern about the trade-offs if multiple event types are =
expressed, should they share a common top-level attribute. How does this =
improve or complicate multi-type events?&nbsp; In the draft, note
 that Figure 1 shows an event with a localized extension that adds value =
without impacting inter-op.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Csid=E2=80=9D in Figure 2 of the SET document is in =
the top-level. We=E2=80=99ve been discussing that additional attributes =
should be in the payload. Item 3 shows sid in the payload. Which is =
correct?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPossible Options=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">A.&nbsp; We could say that all SETs must embed sub and iss =
(if they use iss for identifying subjects) in the payload.&nbsp; See =
example 3 above.&nbsp; This would exclude options 1 and 2
 and at least make it consistent that subject information is always in =
the payload. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">B. A new top-level attribute could be defined which is a JSON =
object. Inside the JSON object, profiling specs can define how their =
subjects are addressed. Let=E2=80=99s call it target.&nbsp;
 A new common SET format might look something like:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">{&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">jti</u>": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr class=3D"">d30",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iat</u>": 1458496025,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://security.example.com</a>"<wbr class=3D"">, =
&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">aud</u>": [<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<a class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr =
class=3D"">eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>"<wbr class=3D"">,<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<a class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/Fe<wbr =
class=3D"">eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>], &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
><span style=3D"color:#0433ff" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"color:#0433ff" class=3D"">"target":{</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif;color:#0433f=
f" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"sub": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr =
class=3D"">s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif;color:#0433f=
f" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com</a>"</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif;color:#0433f=
f" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>},</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"events": {<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr class=3D"">passwordReset": =
{ }<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Here is an example modified logout&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;{<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u class=3D"">iss</u>": "<a =
class=3D"cremed">https://server.example.com</a>",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u class=3D"">aud</u>": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u class=3D"">iat</u>": =
1471566154,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u class=3D"">jti</u>": =
"bWJq=E2=80=9D,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D:{<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>"sub": "248289761001",<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<u class=3D"">sid</u>": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr class=3D"">843ea02=E2=80=9D<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-4087663142099953871m_4008466706979525098apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"events": {<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/e<wbr =
class=3D"">vent/backchannel-logout</a>":
 {}<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Monaco&quot;,serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The above formats address the following:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">* Consistent structures<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">* Flexibility for profiles to target differently but using a =
common attribute<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">* Multiple event types share a common target and must be =
compatible (not sure if this is a plus or minus)<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">* No conflict around SET issuer vs subject issuer<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">* SET is substantially different such that existing access =
token and ID token code will reject consistently (because sub is =
missing)<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">* target could also have an attribute that indicates the =
target =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D such as SCIM resource, OP subject, =
IPaddress, and so on.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
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Standards<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
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class=3D"">@independentid<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p>
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From nobody Fri Jun 23 17:09:54 2017
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Dear Yaron Sheffer,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

secevent Session 1 (2:00:00)
    Tuesday, Morning Session I 0930-1200
    Room Name: Karlin I/II size: 150
    ---------------------------------------------
    


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Security Events
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Yaron Sheffer

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: saag jsonbis httpbis dispatch oauth tokbind tls acme
 Second Priority: ipsecme sacm ace



People who must be present:
  Yaron Sheffer
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Dick Hardt

Resources Requested:

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  Please avoid cfrg.
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most support". 
Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the 
event payload only.

The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer of the 
SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is known by 
at the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn't true, 
and so far one exception case where it is, sometimes. We should not be 
writing this for the exception.

But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the body 
of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of 
the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global namespaces, no 
restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an opaque (to the SET 
standard) value in the domain of the issuer of the SET.

Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event 
itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in 
which the event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. 
Sometimes those are the same, more often (as we're seeing) we can't 
guarantee that. We should not depend on that and we should not treat the 
exceptional case as the usual, no matter what syntax another group has 
come up with.

So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be optional, 
and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should not places 
further constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-contained. 
I regret that we didn't make the registration object in RFC7591 more 
self-contained, as that's caused implementation and extension issues. I 
think events should always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the 
context of where the event is being consumed. We need to define what 
iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside the event object in this 
document, so that different events don't reinvent the same thing over 
and over. If a profile wants to leave that out because they don't need 
an identifier for the payload, then they can leave it out. If they want 
to leave it out because they want to assume there will "always" be an 
iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a problem with that. The 
issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have its own identifier which 
can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a global subject namespace 
or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludicrous 
and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people and 
objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic data 
structure that can be extended and used by all of the use cases that 
we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event, 
is going to just lead to things being broken and back-patched later on. 
But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside the event? They 
can still do that, but I think that's pretty daft.


In summary:

  * iss: issuer of the event
  * sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event
  * event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the event
  * event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the
    recipient of the event
  * event.aud: recipient of the event


  -- Justin


On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as 
> they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which 
> claims they use and how they use them.
>
> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>
>  Mike
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
> *To: *Richard Backman, Annabelle <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley 
> <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer 
> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer 
> <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Mike Jones 
> <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List 
> <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and 
> distinct SET issuer
>
> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>
> If the event type uses sub to identify its subject, and the issuer 
> of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then sub 
> may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. 
> sub) and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject 
> MUST be contained in the event payload.
>
> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a 
> ipaddress claim defined in the event payload. ipaddress:1.2.3.4"
> A SCIM resource URI of 
> https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 might 
> be identified in the event payload as: 
> sub:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4
>
> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and 
> depends on iss being the same for the event issuer AND the subject. 
> This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle 
>> <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a 
>> single SET, then Im less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to 
>> the profiles.
>> -- 
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>> *From:*Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>> *Date:*Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
>> *To:*"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com 
>> <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>> *Cc:*"Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com 
>> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com 
>> <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer 
>> <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Yaron Sheffer 
>> <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones 
>> <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, 
>> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and 
>> distinct SET issuer
>> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is 
>> disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
>> 1. "account-disabled"
>> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>>
>> Marius
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle 
>> <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express 
>>> multiple logical events. If its also not used to express events 
>>> from different profiles that correspond to the same logical event 
>>> (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC 
>>> logout event), then Im not sure what use case that leaves for 
>>> multiple events in one SET.
>>> -- 
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> Identity Services
>>> *From:*Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" 
>>> <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>> *Date:*Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
>>> *To:*John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>> *Cc:*"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com 
>>> <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Henk Birkholz 
>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer 
>>> <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu 
>>> <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Yaron 
>>> Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, 
>>> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com 
>>> <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List 
>>> <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and 
>>> distinct SET issuer
>>> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current 
>>> backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define 
>>> its own duplicate definitions and meanings.
>>> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>>> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the 
>>> differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user 
>>> initiated events would be part of connect. Risk would cover 
>>> variations that drive off of risk calculations like password reset.
>>> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are 
>>> not commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. 
>>> IOW single sign out not expected.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com 
>>> <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form 
>>>> the same family that agree on top level claims.
>>>> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really 
>>>> defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>>>> John B.
>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle 
>>>>> <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET 
>>>>> sub problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents 
>>>>> WG is probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>>>>> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate 
>>>>> conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says its a phone number, 
>>>>> Profile B says its an email address). If these profiles dont 
>>>>> provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then 
>>>>> they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility 
>>>>> trap seems like something that could be easily missed by groups 
>>>>> profiling SET.
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>> *From:*John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>>>> *Date:*Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>>>>> *To:*Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>>> *Cc:*Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, 
>>>>> Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Annabelle Richard 
>>>>> <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Phil Hunt 
>>>>> <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael 
>>>>> Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com 
>>>>> <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List 
>>>>> <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion 
>>>>> and distinct SET issuer
>>>>> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type. Registering 
>>>>> application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.
>>>>> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is 
>>>>> better but we can agree on a convention.
>>>>> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>>>>> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and 
>>>>> confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start 
>>>>> using the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>>>>> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option 
>>>>> eventually gets you into trouble.
>>>>> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top 
>>>>> level is a good idea.
>>>>> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>>>>> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT 
>>>>> for things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>>>>> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the 
>>>>> sub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, 
>>>>> but should not be required for all event types.
>>>>> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the 
>>>>> sub issue.
>>>>> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>>>>> John B.
>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>>>>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific 
>>>>>> rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>>>>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is 
>>>>>> taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>>>>> Did I miss anything?
>>>>>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it 
>>>>>> in the SET document before it is published.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>> +1 to this as well.
>>>>>>>   Justin
>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu 
>>>>>>>> <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>>>>>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to 
>>>>>>>> send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is 
>>>>>>>> broken in this case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) 
>>>>>>>> <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle 
>>>>>>>>> <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent 
>>>>>>>>>> upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not 
>>>>>>>>>> designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see several 
>>>>>>>>>> issues with it:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1.The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can 
>>>>>>>>>> be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. 
>>>>>>>>>> Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no 
>>>>>>>>>> way to verify its provenance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2.Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this 
>>>>>>>>>> problem again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3.No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce claim.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 4.This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT 
>>>>>>>>>> profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own 
>>>>>>>>>> solution to the problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay 
>>>>>>>>>> attacks are both things that happen. Whats being proposed is 
>>>>>>>>>> a simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought 
>>>>>>>>>> up JWT libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier 
>>>>>>>>>> to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A usage-aware JWT 
>>>>>>>>>> library could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, 
>>>>>>>>>> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique 
>>>>>>>>>> logic.
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones 
>>>>>>>>>> <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Date:*Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:*"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List 
>>>>>>>>>> <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>>>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token 
>>>>>>>>>> confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>> Youve heard of premature optimization. Id characterize 
>>>>>>>>>> the proposals in this thread as premature pessimation  
>>>>>>>>>> making things that can and should be simple complex, without 
>>>>>>>>>> data showing theres any need to do so.
>>>>>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to 
>>>>>>>>>> problems that theres no evidence that we actually even 
>>>>>>>>>> have.  Its already been established that its impossible for 
>>>>>>>>>> a SET to be confused for an ID Token  
>>>>>>>>>> seehttps://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html 
>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=eKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=>. 
>>>>>>>>>> If people have data showing that this is possible with 
>>>>>>>>>> specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT 
>>>>>>>>>> deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use 
>>>>>>>>>> that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>>>>>>>>> The proposed solutions, such as prohibiting the use of 
>>>>>>>>>> sub in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, would 
>>>>>>>>>> make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, 
>>>>>>>>>> then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a 
>>>>>>>>>> consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to 
>>>>>>>>>> be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more 
>>>>>>>>>> unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers 
>>>>>>>>>> are to just create their own data structures. Keeping it 
>>>>>>>>>> simple is the key to adoption. Standards are only useful if 
>>>>>>>>>> they are actually used.
>>>>>>>>>> -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org]*On Behalf 
>>>>>>>>>> Of*Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz 
>>>>>>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:*ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token 
>>>>>>>>>> confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>> Echoing Mariuss question: can you explain what you mean by 
>>>>>>>>>> intend?
>>>>>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the 
>>>>>>>>>> X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that 
>>>>>>>>>> declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a 
>>>>>>>>>> recipient may refer to when determining whether to accept a 
>>>>>>>>>> JWT being presented to it in some context.
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius 
>>>>>>>>>> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:*ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token 
>>>>>>>>>> confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>>>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not 
>>>>>>>>>>> covered via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the 
>>>>>>>>>> intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or 
>>>>>>>>>> SET to communicate a security event?)
>>>>>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We cant guarantee that every type of JWT will have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header 
>>>>>>>>>>>> parameters, and enforcing this requires a fail on an 
>>>>>>>>>>>> unrecognized claim approach to ensure that JWTs from some 
>>>>>>>>>>>> future spec cant be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> different keys for different kinds of JWTs rule. Whether 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this 
>>>>>>>>>>>> because managing one key is easier than managing N 
>>>>>>>>>>>> different keys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ditto for aud and iss claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for a type or usage claim/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing List 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt 
>>>>>>>>>>>> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token 
>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what 
>>>>>>>>>>>> should be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Validation Rules for
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different 
>>>>>>>>>>>> sets of
>>>>>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different 
>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds 
>>>>>>>>>>>> of JWTs.".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> clarity and
>>>>>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://self-issued.info/?p=1690 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>> very similar to
>>>>>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>>>>   <phil.hunt@oracle.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>       +1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>       Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>       <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>>>>>>>>>>>> distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>>>>>>>>>>>>       such a way that naive implementations will not
>>>>>>>>>>>>       confuse one for the other and open up security
>>>>>>>>>>>> vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > There is also another important requirement: the
>>>>>>>>>>>>       SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>       "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>>>>>>>>>>>>       to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>>>>>>>>>>>> following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>>>>>>>>>>>>       level
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>>>>>>>>>>>>       be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>       across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>       level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>>>>>>>>>>>>       "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > This solution also allows different profiles that
>>>>>>>>>>>>       define event types to define additional claims
>>>>>>>>>>>>       related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>       since all these claims will be at the event level
>>>>>>>>>>>>       there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>>>>>>>>>>>>       define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>>>>>>>>>>>>       the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>       having the same claim name having different syntax
>>>>>>>>>>>>       in different token types could lead to confusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>       claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>>>>>>>>>>>> practical in the short term, and it also is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>       solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>       this is something the JWT group should seriously
>>>>>>>>>>>> consider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>        > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org><mailto:Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&e=
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>       Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org><mailto:Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>   Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org><mailto:Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>             --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org><mailto:Id-event@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>         --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ 
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&e=
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwMGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&e=>
>


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    <p>Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most
      support". Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub"
      defined clearly in the event payload only.<br>
    </p>
    <p>The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer
      of the SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject
      is known by at the target of the SET. There are many cases where
      this isn't true, and so far one exception case where it is,
      sometimes. We should not be writing this for the exception.</p>
    <p>But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the
      body of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of
      the "iss" of the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global
      namespaces, no restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an
      opaque (to the SET standard) value in the domain of the issuer of
      the SET. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the
      event itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the
      context in which the event will be *received*, not in which it was
      *issued*. Sometimes those are the same, more often (as we're
      seeing) we can't guarantee that. We should not depend on that and
      we should not treat the exceptional case as the usual, no matter
      what syntax another group has come up with. <br>
    </p>
    <p>So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be
      optional, and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles
      should not places further constraints on that. Events themselves
      should be self-contained. I regret that we didn't make the
      registration object in RFC7591 more self-contained, as that's
      caused implementation and extension issues. I think events should
      always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the context of
      where the event is being consumed. We need to define what iss/sub
      mean (in a grand sense) inside the event object in this document,
      so that different events don't reinvent the same thing over and
      over. If a profile wants to leave that out because they don't need
      an identifier for the payload, then they can leave it out. If they
      want to leave it out because they want to assume there will
      "always" be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a
      problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does,
      have its own identifier which can't be assumed to be universal.
      Proposing a global subject namespace or format, as has been
      suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludicrous and will never fly
      as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people and objects has
      always worked. We should have a clear semantic data structure that
      can be extended and used by all of the use cases that we've
      adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event,
      is going to just lead to things being broken and back-patched
      later on. But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside
      the event? They can still do that, but I think that's pretty daft.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>In summary:</p>
    <ul>
      <li>iss: issuer of the event</li>
      <li>sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event</li>
      <li>event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of
        the event<br>
      </li>
      <li>event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by
        the recipient of the event</li>
      <li>event.aud: recipient of the event</li>
    </ul>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>-- Justin<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY4PR21MB0504EB3DF824A845C282B4DDF5DA0@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com">
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        <p class="MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most
          support is keeping things as they are, leaving it up to
          profiles and applications to define which claims they use and
          how they use them.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use
          the language below.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> Mike</p>
        <div
          style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid
          #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From:
            </b><a href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">Phil Hunt</a><br>
            <b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
            <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">Richard Backman, Annabelle</a><br>
            <b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">Marius Scurtescu</a>; <a
              href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
              John Bradley</a>; <a
              href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
              moz-do-not-send="true">Henk Birkholz</a>;
            <a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">Justin
              Richer</a>; <a href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">
              Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a
              href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">Mike Jones</a>; <a
              href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
              ID Events Mailing List</a><br>
            <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
            confusion and distinct SET issuer</p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div class="">So I understand what is being proposed is:</div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class=""><font class="" face="Courier New">If the event
            type uses sub to identify its subject, and the issuer of
            the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then
            sub may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject
            of an event (e.g. sub) and any other claims required to
            uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event
            payload.</font></div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be
          represented in a ipaddress claim defined in the event
          payload. ipaddress:1.2.3.4"</div>
        <div class="">A SCIM resource URI of <a
            href="https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4"
            class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4</a>
          might be identified in the event payload as: sub:"<a
            href="https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4"
            class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4</a></div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="">A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top
          level sub claim and depends on iss being the same for the
          event issuer AND the subject. This means that no party may
          issue logout events on behalf of the OP.</div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="">
          <div class="">
            <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
              text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
              white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;
              -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
              after-white-space;" class="">
              <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
                text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
                none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;
                -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
                after-white-space;" class="">
                <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
                  text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
                  none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                  -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;
                  -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
                  after-white-space;" class="">
                  <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                    normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                    text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                    word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                    word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                    -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
                    <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                      normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                      text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                      word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                      word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                      -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
                      <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                        normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                        text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                        0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                        space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
                        class="">
                        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                          normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                          space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
                          class="">
                          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
                            letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
                            text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                            white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                            -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                            break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
                            class="">
                            <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
                              letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
                              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                              white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                              break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
                              class="">
                              <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
                                letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
                                start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
                                none; white-space: normal; word-spacing:
                                0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                word-wrap: break-word;
                                -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
                                class="">
                                <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
                                  letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
                                  start; text-indent: 0px;
                                  text-transform: none; white-space:
                                  normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                                  -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                  word-wrap: break-word;
                                  -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                  -webkit-line-break:
                                  after-white-space;" class="">
                                  <div class=""><span
                                      class="Apple-style-span"
                                      style="border-collapse: separate;
                                      line-height: normal;
                                      border-spacing: 0px;">
                                      <div class="" style="word-wrap:
                                        break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                                        space; -webkit-line-break:
                                        after-white-space;">
                                        <div class="">
                                          <div class="">
                                            <div class="">Phil</div>
                                            <div class=""><br class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">Oracle
                                              Corporation, Identity
                                              Cloud Services Architect
                                              &amp; Standards</div>
                                            <div class="">@independentid</div>
                                            <div class=""><a
                                                href="http://www.independentid.com"
                                                class=""
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </span><a
                                      href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                      class="" style="orphans: 2;
                                      widows: 2;" moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br class="">
          <div>
            <blockquote type="cite" class="">
              <div class="">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard
                Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a
                  href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=""
                  moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:</div>
              <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
              <div class="">
                <div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
                  font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                  normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                  normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
                  text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                  normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                  0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                    font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">
                    <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
                      sans-serif;" class="">Fair point. If we do not
                      intend to support multiple profiles within a
                      single SET, then Im less concerned about leaving
                      sub semantics up to the profiles.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                    font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">
                    <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
                      sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                  <div class="">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      --<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      Identity Services<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                  </div>
                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                    font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">
                    <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
                      sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                    font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">
                    <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
                      sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                  <div style="border-style: solid none none;
                    border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181,
                    196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class="">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      <b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri,
                          sans-serif;" class="">From:<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"></span></span></b><span
                        style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
                        class="">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br
                          class="">
                        <b class="">Date:<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>Wednesday,
                        June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br class="">
                        <b class="">To:<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>"Richard
                        Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br
                          class="">
                        <b class="">Cc:<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>"Phil
                        Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                        John Bradley &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,
                        Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                          class="" moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;,
                        Justin Richer &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                        Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                        Michael Jones &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                          class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                        ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br
                          class="">
                        <b class="">Subject:<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>Re:
                        [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
                        confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      Example for multiple events within same profile:
                      IdP account is disabled (because of hijacking),
                      this can lead to two events:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">
                        1. "account-disabled"<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">
                        2. "sessions-revoked"<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      <br class="" clear="all">
                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                          class="">
                          Marius<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                      class="">
                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                    <div class="">
                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                        12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
                        class="">
                        On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard
                        Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                          target="_blank" style="color: purple;
                          text-decoration: underline;" class=""
                          moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                      <blockquote style="border-style: none none none
                        solid; border-left-width: 1pt;
                        border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding:
                        0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt;
                        margin-right: 0in;" class="" type="cite">
                        <div class="">
                          <div class="">
                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                              font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                              Roman', serif;" class="">
                              <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                                Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The spec
                                says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be
                                used to express multiple logical events.
                                If its also not used to express events
                                from different profiles that correspond
                                to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
                                backchannel logout event alongside a
                                hypothetical RISC logout event), then
                                Im not sure what use case that leaves
                                for multiple events in one SET.</span><o:p
                                class=""></o:p></div>
                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                              font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                              Roman', serif;" class="">
                              <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                                Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span><o:p
                                class=""></o:p></div>
                            <div class="">
                              <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                                Roman', serif;" class="">
                                --<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                              <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                                Roman', serif;" class="">
                                Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                              <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                                Roman', serif;" class="">
                                Identity Services<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                            </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                              font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                              Roman', serif;" class="">
                              <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                                Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span><o:p
                                class=""></o:p></div>
                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                              font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                              Roman', serif;" class="">
                              <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                                Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""></span><o:p
                                class=""></o:p></div>
                            <div style="border-style: solid none none;
                              border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color:
                              rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"
                              class="">
                              <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
                                Roman', serif;" class="">
                                <b class=""><span style="font-family:
                                    Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span
                                      class="Apple-converted-space"></span></span></b><span
                                  style="font-family: Calibri,
                                  sans-serif;" class="">Id-event &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                  on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br
                                    class="">
                                  <b class="">Date:<span
                                      class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>Wednesday,
                                  June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br class="">
                                  <b class="">To:<span
                                      class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>John
                                  Bradley &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br
                                    class="">
                                  <b class="">Cc:<span
                                      class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>"Richard
                                  Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                  Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;,
                                  Justin Richer &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                  Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                  Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                                  Michael Jones &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                  ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
                                    target="_blank" style="color:
                                    purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p
                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                              <div class="">
                                <div class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                    <b class="">Subject:<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"></span></b>Re:
                                    [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                    Token confusion and distinct SET
                                    issuer<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div class="">
                              <div class="">
                                <div class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    Separate or combined may be
                                    evolving. Mike wants to keep the
                                    current backchannel logout very
                                    narrowly scoped. He suggested risc
                                    define its own duplicate definitions
                                    and meanings.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    That leads me to believe we will
                                    have multi-type events in practice.<o:p
                                      class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    Session cancellation can occur for
                                    many reasons. One of the
                                    differentiators we had tried to make
                                    was an assumption that user
                                    initiated events would be part of
                                    connect. Risk would cover variations
                                    that drive off of risk calculations
                                    like password reset.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    There are also signout events at
                                    rp's to let the OP know. These are
                                    not commands but notification that a
                                    resource session is cancelled. IOW
                                    single sign out not expected.<o:p
                                      class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div
                                  id="m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature"
                                  class="">
                                  <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                    font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times
                                    New Roman', serif;" class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                    Phil<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                </div>
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:
                                    0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                    font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                    serif;">
                                    <br class="">
                                    On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John
                                    Bradley &lt;<a
                                      href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
                                      target="_blank" style="color:
                                      purple; text-decoration:
                                      underline;" class=""
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
                                  margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""
                                  type="cite">
                                  <div class="">
                                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                      0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                      font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                      serif;" class="">
                                      I thought we decided that we are
                                      only allowing set messages form
                                      the same family that agree on top
                                      level claims.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                    <div class="">
                                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                        font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                        serif;" class="">
                                        <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">
                                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                        font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                        serif;" class="">
                                        Otherwise there can be no top
                                        level claims and we are really
                                        defining a alternative format to
                                        JWT in some ways.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">
                                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                        font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                        serif;" class="">
                                        <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">
                                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                        font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                        serif;" class="">
                                        John B.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">
                                      <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                        0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                        font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                                        serif;" class="">
                                        <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                      <div class="">
                                        <blockquote style="margin-top:
                                          5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"
                                          class="" type="cite">
                                          <div class="">
                                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                              0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                              font-family: 'Times New
                                              Roman', serif;" class="">
                                              On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54
                                              PM, Richard Backman,
                                              Annabelle &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                style="color: purple;
                                                text-decoration:
                                                underline;" class=""
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                              wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                            0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                            font-family: 'Times New
                                            Roman', serif;" class="">
                                            <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                          <div class="">
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
                                                0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                                                12pt; font-family:
                                                'Times New Roman',
                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                <span style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif;"
                                                  class="">I agree with
                                                  John that the JWT type
                                                  confusion problem and
                                                  the SET sub problem
                                                  can and should be
                                                  discussed separately.
                                                  The secevents WG is
                                                  probably not the right
                                                  setting to discuss the
                                                  former.</span><o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
                                                0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                                                12pt; font-family:
                                                'Times New Roman',
                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                <span style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif;"
                                                  class=""></span><o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
                                                0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                                                12pt; font-family:
                                                'Times New Roman',
                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                <span style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif;"
                                                  class="">My concern
                                                  with the sub claim is
                                                  that two profiles may
                                                  dictate conflicting
                                                  semantics (e.g.
                                                  Profile A says its a
                                                  phone number, Profile
                                                  B says its an email
                                                  address). If these
                                                  profiles dont provide
                                                  an alternate way to
                                                  declare subject of
                                                  their events, then
                                                  they cannot be present
                                                  within the same token.
                                                  This incompatibility
                                                  trap seems like
                                                  something that could
                                                  be easily missed by
                                                  groups profiling SET.</span><o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
                                                0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                                                12pt; font-family:
                                                'Times New Roman',
                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                <span style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif;"
                                                  class=""></span><o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
                                                  0in 0.0001pt;
                                                  font-size: 12pt;
                                                  font-family: 'Times
                                                  New Roman', serif;
                                                  background-color:
                                                  white;" class="">
                                                  --<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
                                                  0in 0.0001pt;
                                                  font-size: 12pt;
                                                  font-family: 'Times
                                                  New Roman', serif;
                                                  background-color:
                                                  white;" class="">
                                                  Annabelle Richard
                                                  Backman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
                                                  0in 0.0001pt;
                                                  font-size: 12pt;
                                                  font-family: 'Times
                                                  New Roman', serif;
                                                  background-color:
                                                  white;" class="">
                                                  Identity Services<o:p
                                                    class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
                                                0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                                                12pt; font-family:
                                                'Times New Roman',
                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                <span style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif;"
                                                  class=""></span><o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
                                                0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                                                12pt; font-family:
                                                'Times New Roman',
                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                <span style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; font-family:
                                                  Calibri, sans-serif;"
                                                  class=""></span><o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style="border-style:
                                              solid none none;
                                              border-top-width: 1pt;
                                              border-top-color: rgb(181,
                                              196, 223); padding: 3pt
                                              0in 0in;" class="">
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
                                                  0in 0.0001pt;
                                                  font-size: 12pt;
                                                  font-family: 'Times
                                                  New Roman', serif;
                                                  background-color:
                                                  white;" class="">
                                                  <b class=""><span
                                                      style="font-family:
                                                      Calibri,
                                                      sans-serif;"
                                                      class="">From:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span></b><span
                                                    style="font-family:
                                                    Calibri,
                                                    sans-serif;"
                                                    class="">John
                                                    Bradley &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br
                                                      class="">
                                                    <b class="">Date:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Wednesday,
                                                    June 21, 2017 at
                                                    1:39 PM<br class="">
                                                    <b class="">To:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Yaron
                                                    Sheffer &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br
                                                      class="">
                                                    <b class="">Cc:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Justin
                                                    Richer &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                                    Marius Scurtescu
                                                    &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Annabelle Richard
                                                    &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Phil Hunt &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Michael Jones &lt;<a
href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    ID Events Mailing
                                                    List &lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                    Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      purple;
                                                      text-decoration:
                                                      underline;"
                                                      class=""
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br
                                                      class="">
                                                    <b class="">Subject:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Re:
                                                    [Id-event] solution
                                                    for Id/Access Token
                                                    confusion and
                                                    distinct SET issuer</span><o:p
                                                    class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
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                                                  New Roman', serif;
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                                                  <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div style="margin: 0in
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                                                serif; background-color:
                                                white;" class="">
                                                In the envelope typ is a
                                                media/mime type.
                                                Registering
                                                application/idt+jwt if
                                                we register jwt as a
                                                structured name sufix. <o:p
                                                  class=""></o:p></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
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                                                  New Roman', serif;
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                                                  <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div style="margin: 0in
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                                                  Using the cty is also
                                                  possible.  I need to
                                                  think about what is
                                                  better but we can
                                                  agree on a convention.<o:p
                                                    class=""></o:p></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    Not everything is
                                                    going to be a set
                                                    token like not every
                                                    JWS is a JWT.<o:p
                                                      class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    New Roman', serif;
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                                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    If we are going to
                                                    define processing
                                                    rules to stop
                                                    collisions and
                                                    confusion around JWT
                                                    for different
                                                    purposes, we should
                                                    just start using the
                                                    typ parameter based
                                                    on the existing
                                                    spec.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    In general content
                                                    sniffing if there is
                                                    more than one option
                                                    eventually gets you
                                                    into trouble.<o:p
                                                      class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    I am not convinced
                                                    that forcing there
                                                    to be no sub at the
                                                    top level is a good
                                                    idea. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    New Roman', serif;
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                                                    <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div style="margin:
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                                                    It is not the way we
                                                    should differentiate
                                                    between SET and
                                                    id_tokens.<o:p
                                                      class=""></o:p></div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      white;" class="">
                                                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      white;" class="">
                                                      If sub is not
                                                      allowed at the top
                                                      level people will
                                                      do non SET JWT for
                                                      things where the
                                                      subject is scoped
                                                      to the iss of the
                                                      token.<o:p
                                                        class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      'Times New Roman',
                                                      serif;
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                                                      white;" class="">
                                                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      I think defining
                                                      sub to be part of
                                                      the event for
                                                      cases where the
                                                      sub is scoped
                                                      differently from
                                                      the issuer of the
                                                      token is fine, but
                                                      should not be
                                                      required for all
                                                      event types.<o:p
                                                        class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      serif;
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                                                      white;" class="">
                                                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      I think we should
                                                      solve the
                                                      confusion issue
                                                      separately from
                                                      the sub issue.<o:p
                                                        class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      white;" class="">
                                                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      Sorry I am at CIS
                                                      so trying to catch
                                                      up on lists.<o:p
                                                        class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      serif;
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                                                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      white;" class="">
                                                      John B.<o:p
                                                        class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <div style="margin:
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                                                      <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div class="">
                                                    <blockquote
                                                      style="margin-top:
                                                      5pt;
                                                      margin-bottom:
                                                      5pt;" class=""
                                                      type="cite">
                                                      <div class="">
                                                        <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          On Jun 17,
                                                          2017, at 3:45
                                                          PM, Yaron
                                                          Sheffer &lt;<a
href="mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="">
                                                        <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="">
                                                        <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          So to
                                                          summarize what
                                                          I'm seeing on
                                                          this thread:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Everybody
                                                          agrees with
                                                          Marius's
                                                          short-term
                                                          solution,
                                                          specific rules
                                                          for "sub" and
                                                          "iss" that can
                                                          be defined in
                                                          the SET spec.<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Almost
                                                          everybody
                                                          agrees on a
                                                          long-term
                                                          "usage" claim
                                                          ("type" is
                                                          taken) that
                                                          should be
                                                          defined
                                                          elsewhere,
                                                          e.g. in the
                                                          JWT BCP.<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Did I miss
                                                          anything?<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          By the way, if
                                                          we do add a
                                                          "usage" claim,
                                                          we need to
                                                          also use it in
                                                          the SET
                                                          document
                                                          before it is
                                                          published.<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Thanks,<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                           Yaron<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          On 15/06/17
                                                          22:08, Justin
                                                          Richer wrote:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:
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                                                          margin-bottom:
                                                          5pt;" class=""
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          +1 to this as
                                                          well.<span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                           Justin<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:
                                                          5pt;
                                                          margin-bottom:
                                                          5pt;" class=""
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          On Jun 15,
                                                          2017, at 1:09
                                                          PM, Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          +1 to what
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          said.<span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Also, Mike you
                                                          are missing
                                                          the other
                                                          requirement,
                                                          for RPs to
                                                          send events to
                                                          an IdP. The
                                                          iss+sub pair
                                                          at the top
                                                          level is
                                                          broken in this
                                                          case.<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          <br class=""
                                                          clear="all">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
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                                                          Marius<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          On Wed, Jun
                                                          14, 2017 at
                                                          5:33 PM, Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border-style:
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                                                          class=""
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                                                          +1<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          id="m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"
                                                          class="">
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          id="m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature"
                                                          class="">
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                                                          Phil<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          <p
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                                                          <div
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          9pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">On
                                                          Jun 14, 2017,
                                                          at 5:25 PM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle &lt;<a
href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:
                                                          5pt;
                                                          margin-bottom:
                                                          5pt;" class=""
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
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                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">Mike,</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
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                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">Your
                                                          explanation
                                                          for why this
                                                          is a
                                                          non-problem is
                                                          dependent upon
                                                          side effects
                                                          of elements of
                                                          OpenID Connect
                                                          that were not
                                                          designed to
                                                          solve this
                                                          issue. As a
                                                          result, I see
                                                          several issues
                                                          with it:</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
                                                          font-family:
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                                                          initial;">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">1.</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""><span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The
                                                          caller of the
                                                          Token Endpoint
                                                          is the only
                                                          party that can
                                                          be certain
                                                          that a
                                                          nonce-less ID
                                                          Token is
                                                          really an ID
                                                          Token. Any
                                                          party that the
                                                          caller passes
                                                          the ID Token
                                                          off to has no
                                                          way to verify
                                                          its
                                                          provenance.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial;
                                                          background-repeat:
                                                          initial
                                                          initial;">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">2.</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""><span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Any
                                                          future ID
                                                          Token
                                                          distribution
                                                          method needs
                                                          to solve this
                                                          problem again.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial;
                                                          background-repeat:
                                                          initial
                                                          initial;">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">3.</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""><span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">No
                                                          other profile
                                                          of JWT can
                                                          ever use the
                                                          "nonce claim.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"
style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial;
                                                          background-repeat:
                                                          initial
                                                          initial;">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">4.</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""><span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">This
                                                          is only a
                                                          solution for
                                                          ID Tokens.
                                                          Every other
                                                          JWT profile
                                                          that cares
                                                          about
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          has to invent
                                                          its own
                                                          solution to
                                                          the problem.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></p>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">We
                                                          know from
                                                          experience
                                                          that naming
                                                          collisions and
                                                          replay attacks
                                                          are both
                                                          things that
                                                          happen. Whats
                                                          being proposed
                                                          is a simple,
                                                          defensive
                                                          measure
                                                          against these
                                                          risks. You
                                                          brought up JWT
                                                          libraries: a
                                                          general
                                                          solution
                                                          actually makes
                                                          it easier to
                                                          use common
                                                          libraries for
                                                          JWT parsing. A
                                                          usage-aware
                                                          JWT library
                                                          could handle
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          for any JWT
                                                          profile,
                                                          whereas with
                                                          the status quo
                                                          each profile
                                                          would require
                                                          unique logic.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
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                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          --<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
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                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border-style:
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                                                          none;
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                                                          223); padding:
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                                                          class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <b class=""><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span></b><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Id-event &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Date:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Wednesday,
                                                          June 14, 2017
                                                          at 1:16 PM<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">To:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Cc:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>"Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle"
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:richanna@amazon.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Subject:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class="">Youve
                                                          heard of
                                                          premature
                                                          optimization.
                                                          Id
                                                          characterize
                                                          the proposals
                                                          in this thread
                                                          as premature
                                                          pessimation 
                                                          making things
                                                          that can and
                                                          should be
                                                          simple
                                                          complex,
                                                          without data
                                                          showing
                                                          theres any
                                                          need to do so.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class="">Mandatory
                                                          solutions are
                                                          being proposed
                                                          in this thread
                                                          to problems
                                                          that theres
                                                          no evidence
                                                          that we
                                                          actually even
                                                          have. Its
                                                          already been
                                                          established
                                                          that its
                                                          impossible for
                                                          a SET to be
                                                          confused for
                                                          an ID Token 
                                                          see<span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=eKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e="
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html</span></a>.
                                                          If people have
                                                          data showing
                                                          that this is
                                                          possible with
                                                          specific kinds
                                                          of Access
                                                          Tokens or
                                                          other real JWT
                                                          deployments,
                                                          please provide
                                                          specifics, so
                                                          that we can
                                                          use that data
                                                          to inform
                                                          appropriate
                                                          engineering
                                                          choices on our
                                                          part.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class="">The
                                                          proposed
                                                          solutions,
                                                          such as
                                                          prohibiting
                                                          the use of
                                                          sub in the
                                                          normal way, or
                                                          requiring a
                                                          type claim,
                                                          would make
                                                          previously
                                                          simple things
                                                          unnecessarily
                                                          complex. Yes,
                                                          then the
                                                          result is then
                                                          different than
                                                          a normal JWT
                                                          but a
                                                          consequence of
                                                          this is that
                                                          custom parsing
                                                          code would
                                                          have to be
                                                          used, rather
                                                          than a
                                                          standard JWT
                                                          parser. The
                                                          more unwieldy
                                                          we make it to
                                                          use SETs, the
                                                          more likely
                                                          developers are
                                                          to just create
                                                          their own data
                                                          structures.
                                                          Keeping it
                                                          simple is the
                                                          key to
                                                          adoption.
                                                          Standards are
                                                          only useful if
                                                          they are
                                                          actually used.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
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                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          12pt;
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class="">
                                                          -- Mike</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;
                                                          color: rgb(0,
                                                          32, 96);"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border-style:
                                                          solid none
                                                          none;
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                                                          1pt;
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                                                          class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
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                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <b class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"><span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Id-event
                                                          [<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><b class="">On
                                                          Behalf Of<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>Tuesday, June
                                                          13, 2017 5:33
                                                          PM<br class="">
                                                          <b class="">To:</b><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Cc:</b><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">Echoing
                                                          Mariuss
                                                          question: can
                                                          you explain
                                                          what you mean
                                                          by intend?</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
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                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class="">To
                                                          your first
                                                          question, I
                                                          think a better
                                                          analogy would
                                                          be the X.509
                                                          Key Usage
                                                          extension: a
                                                          multi-valued
                                                          property that
                                                          declares the
                                                          intended
                                                          purpose of the
                                                          JWT, and that
                                                          a recipient
                                                          may refer to
                                                          when
                                                          determining
                                                          whether to
                                                          accept a JWT
                                                          being
                                                          presented to
                                                          it in some
                                                          context.</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          --<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          Calibri,
                                                          sans-serif;"
                                                          class=""></span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border-style:
                                                          solid none
                                                          none;
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                                                          1pt;
                                                          border-top-color:
                                                          rgb(181, 196,
                                                          223); padding:
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                                                          class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          'Times New
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <b class=""><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></span></b><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Id-event &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Date:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Tuesday,
                                                          June 13, 2017
                                                          at 11:05 AM<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">To:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a
href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank"
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Cc:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <b class="">Subject:<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          0.0001pt;
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                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          On Tue, Jun
                                                          13, 2017 at
                                                          2:11 AM, Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a
href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank"
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border-style:
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                                                          solid;
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                                                          rgb(204, 204,
                                                          204); padding:
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                                                          6pt; margin:
                                                          5pt 0in 5pt
                                                          4.8pt;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          12pt;
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          And a 2nd
                                                          question.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          What semantics
                                                          would "usage"
                                                          provide that
                                                          that are not
                                                          covered via
                                                          "intend",
                                                          "audience",
                                                          and "scope"?<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          "aud"
                                                          (audience)
                                                          specifies the
                                                          target client,
                                                          but not the
                                                          intended usage
                                                          (access token
                                                          to authorize
                                                          resource
                                                          access or SET
                                                          to communicate
                                                          a security
                                                          event?)<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          12pt;
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                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          "scope" is not
                                                          used by SET.<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
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                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          I don't know
                                                          what do you
                                                          mean by
                                                          "intend" (or
                                                          intent)?<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border-style:
                                                          none none none
                                                          solid;
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                                                          1pt;
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                                                          rgb(204, 204,
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                                                          4.8pt;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          type="cite">
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                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          Henk<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          On 06/13/2017
                                                          01:01 AM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          wrote:<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border-style:
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                                                          class=""
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          font-size:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          Thanks for
                                                          putting this
                                                          together!<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          I think the
                                                          assumptions
                                                          inherent in
                                                          3.9 are
                                                          flawed:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          We cant
                                                          guarantee that
                                                          every type of
                                                          JWT will have
                                                          a mutually
                                                          exclusive set
                                                          of valid
                                                          claims and/or
                                                          header
                                                          parameters,
                                                          and enforcing
                                                          this requires
                                                          a fail on an
                                                          unrecognized
                                                          claim
                                                          approach to
                                                          ensure that
                                                          JWTs from some
                                                          future spec
                                                          cant be
                                                          mistaken for
                                                          JWTs from a
                                                          current spec.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          It is
                                                          unrealistic to
                                                          expect
                                                          implementers
                                                          to adhere to
                                                          the different
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of JWTs
                                                          rule. Whether
                                                          mandated by
                                                          the spec or
                                                          not,
                                                          implementers
                                                          will ignore
                                                          this because
                                                          managing one
                                                          key is easier
                                                          than managing
                                                          N different
                                                          keys.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          Ditto for
                                                          aud and
                                                          iss claims.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          +1 for a
                                                          type or
                                                          usage
                                                          claim/header
                                                          parameter.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          --<span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          *From:
                                                          *Id-event &lt;<a
href="mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          *Date:
                                                          *Monday, June
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:18 PM<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          *To: *Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          *Cc: *Adam
                                                          Dawes &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          "matake, nov"
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          "Phil Hunt
                                                          (IDM)" &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          *Subject: *Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          Agreed. Note
                                                          that there is
                                                          still lots of
                                                          discussion on
                                                          what should be
                                                          in 3.9.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          On Mon, Jun
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:15 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                            Thanks for
                                                          the pointer
                                                          Dick, very
                                                          good timing
                                                          :-)<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                            The issue
                                                          is described
                                                          by "2.7.
                                                          Cross-JWT
                                                          Confusion" and
                                                          the<br
                                                          class="">
                                                            mitigation
                                                          is in "3.9.
                                                          Use Mutually
                                                          Exclusive
                                                          Validation
                                                          Rules for<br
                                                          class="">
                                                            Different
                                                          Kinds of
                                                          JWTs",
                                                          specifically
                                                          "Use different
                                                          sets of<br
                                                          class="">
                                                            required
                                                          claims...",
                                                          "Use different
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of<br
                                                          class="">
                                                            JWTs." and
                                                          "Use different
                                                          issuers for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of
                                                          JWTs.".<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                            I still
                                                          think that a
                                                          "type" claim
                                                          would bring a
                                                          lot of clarity
                                                          and<br
                                                          class="">
                                                            safety.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                            Marius<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                            On Thu,
                                                          Jun 8, 2017 at
                                                          9:59 PM, Dick
                                                          Hardt &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                           
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                              Yaron,
                                                          Mike and I
                                                          just published
                                                          an BCP ID for
                                                          JWT<br
                                                          class="">
                                                             <span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=a7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e="
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">http://self-issued.info/?p=1690</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                              On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 9:02
                                                          PM Adam Dawes
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:adawes@google.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">adawes@google.com</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                             
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:adawes@google.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                I
                                                          was initially
                                                          a fan of
                                                          keeping SETS
                                                          to be very
                                                          similar to<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                id
                                                          tokens but I
                                                          now think this
                                                          is a better
                                                          plan.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 6:56
                                                          PM matake, nov
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:nov@matake.jp"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                               
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:nov@matake.jp" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                           +1
                                                          especially for
                                                          "type"<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                           2017-06-09
                                                          10:32
                                                          GMT+09:00 Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                           &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                             +1<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                             Phil<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt; On
                                                          Jun 8, 2017,
                                                          at 6:28 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in
                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white;" class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target="_blank" style="color:
                                                          purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          There were a
                                                          couple of
                                                          proposals on
                                                          how to<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          distinguish
                                                          SETs from Id
                                                          Tokens and
                                                          Access Tokens
                                                          in<br class="">
                                                                
                                                             such a
                                                          way that naive
implementations will not<br class="">
                                                                
                                                             confuse
                                                          one for the
                                                          other and open
                                                          up security<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          vulnerabilities.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          There is also
                                                          another
                                                          important
                                                          requirement:
                                                          the<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             SET
                                                          issuer in some
                                                          cases must be
                                                          different from
                                                          the<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             "sub"
                                                          issuer. This
                                                          is the case of
                                                          an RP sending
                                                          SETs<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             to an
                                                          IdP.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          With these
                                                          requirements
                                                          in mind I
                                                          propose the<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          following:<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt; -
                                                          both "sub" and
                                                          "iss" to be
                                                          defined at the
                                                          event<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             level<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt; -
                                                          "iss" at event
                                                          level and at
                                                          top SET level
                                                          can<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             be
                                                          different<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt; -
                                                          "iss" and
                                                          "sub" at event
                                                          level can be
                                                          different<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             across
                                                          events in the
                                                          same SET<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt; -
                                                          "sub" should
                                                          NOT be present
                                                          at the top SET<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             level
                                                          (this solves
                                                          the
                                                          disambiguation),
                                                          please note<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             "should"
                                                          and not "must"<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          This solution
                                                          also allows
                                                          different
                                                          profiles that<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             define
                                                          event types to
                                                          define
                                                          additional
                                                          claims<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             related
                                                          to sub (like
                                                          email or
                                                          phone_number)
                                                          and<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             since
                                                          all these
                                                          claims will be
                                                          at the event
                                                          level<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             there
                                                          will be no
                                                          collisions or
                                                          ambiguity.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          Another
                                                          proposal
                                                          (which I
                                                          supported) was
                                                          to<br class="">
                                                                
                                                             define a
                                                          composite
                                                          "aud" claim.
                                                          This is not
                                                          solving<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             the
                                                          requirement
                                                          for a
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer. Also,<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             having
                                                          the same claim
                                                          name having
                                                          different
                                                          syntax<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             in
                                                          different
                                                          token types
                                                          could lead to
                                                          confusion.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          And yet
                                                          another
                                                          proposal was
                                                          to introduce a
                                                          new<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             claim
                                                          for JWTs that
                                                          defines a
                                                          "type". This
                                                          is not<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          practical in
                                                          the short
                                                          term, and it
                                                          also is not<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             solving
                                                          the distinct
                                                          issuer
                                                          requirement,
                                                          but I think<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             this is
                                                          something the
                                                          JWT group
                                                          should
                                                          seriously<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          consider.<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          Thoughts?<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          Marius<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          _______________________________________________<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0in 0in 12pt;
                                                          font-size:
                                                          12pt;
                                                          font-family:
                                                          'Times New
                                                          Roman', serif;
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial;
                                                          background-repeat:
                                                          initial
                                                          initial;">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
                                                          href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
                                                          underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             &gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            <span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e="
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                                
                                                            
                                                          _______________________________________________<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                             Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
                                                            <span
                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
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class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>&lt;mailto:<a
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                                                          text-decoration:
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                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br
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href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
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                                                          _______________________________________________<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
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                                                          mailing list<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
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                                                          class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
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                                                          class=""
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                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>&lt;mailto:<a
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                                                          style="color:
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                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                                
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                                                                --<span
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class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span>&lt;mailto:<a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple;
                                                          text-decoration:
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                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
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                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br
                                                          class="">
                                                               <span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
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                                                          class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                              --<span
class="m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"></span><br class="">
                                                             
                                                          Subscribe to
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                                                          Subscribe to
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                                                          style="color:
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                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br
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href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
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                                                          href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
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                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
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                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:
                                                          5pt;
                                                          margin-bottom:
                                                          5pt;" class=""
                                                          type="cite">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          font-size:
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background-color: white;" class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
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                                                          mailing list<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <a
                                                          href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
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                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          font-size:
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background-color: white;" class="">
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href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e="
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
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                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          </blockquote>
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                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          0.0001pt;
                                                          font-size:
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background-color: white;" class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
                                                          Id-event
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                                                          class="">
                                                          <a
                                                          href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
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href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e="
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
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                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
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                                                          style="margin:
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">_______________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
                                                          <pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Id-event mailing list<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
                                                          <pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color: purple;" class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
                                                          <pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color: purple;" class="">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          0.0001pt;
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                                                          12pt;
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background-color: white;" class="">
                                                          <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                                                        </div>
                                                        <div class="">
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background-color: white;" class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <a
                                                          href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          purple;"
                                                          class="">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br
                                                          class="">
                                                          <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwMGaQ&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=l-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e="
target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
                                                          class=""
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p
                                                          class=""></o:p></div>
                                                        </div>
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                                                  </div>
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                                                    <div style="margin:
                                                      0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                                                      font-size: 12pt;
                                                      font-family:
                                                      'Times New Roman',
                                                      serif;
                                                      background-color:
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:43:00 -0700
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it to an IdP, a
top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or maybe I
misunderstand.

We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. A top level
"sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the opaque "sub" as
issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique only when combined
with the IdP "iss".

Not sure why event.aud would be necessary?

Marius

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most support". Instea=
d
> I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the event
> payload only.
>
> The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer of the
> SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is known by a=
t
> the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn't true, and so
> far one exception case where it is, sometimes. We should not be writing
> this for the exception.
>
> But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the body of
> a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of the
> SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global namespaces, no
> restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an opaque (to the SET standar=
d)
> value in the domain of the issuer of the SET.
>
> Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event
> itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in which
> the event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. Sometimes tho=
se
> are the same, more often (as we're seeing) we can't guarantee that. We
> should not depend on that and we should not treat the exceptional case as
> the usual, no matter what syntax another group has come up with.
>
> So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be optional, an=
d
> ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should not places furth=
er
> constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-contained. I regret
> that we didn't make the registration object in RFC7591 more self-containe=
d,
> as that's caused implementation and extension issues. I think events shou=
ld
> always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the context of where the
> event is being consumed. We need to define what iss/sub mean (in a grand
> sense) inside the event object in this document, so that different events
> don't reinvent the same thing over and over. If a profile wants to leave
> that out because they don't need an identifier for the payload, then they
> can leave it out. If they want to leave it out because they want to assum=
e
> there will "always" be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a
> problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have its
> own identifier which can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a global
> subject namespace or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list=
,
> is ludicrous and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing fo=
r
> people and objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic dat=
a
> structure that can be extended and used by all of the use cases that we'v=
e
> adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event, is goin=
g
> to just lead to things being broken and back-patched later on. But if one
> spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside the event? They can still do
> that, but I think that's pretty daft.
>
>
> In summary:
>
>    - iss: issuer of the event
>    - sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event
>    - event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the
>    event
>    - event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the
>    recipient of the event
>    - event.aud: recipient of the event
>
>
>  -- Justin
>
> On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as the=
y
> are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which claims th=
ey
> use and how they use them.
>
>
>
> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=93 Mike
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
> *To: *Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley
> <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jus=
tin
> Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Mike
> Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List
> <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>
> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and=
 the issuer of
> the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D may be
> used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D) and
> any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be
> contained in the event payload.
>
> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a
> =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9C=
ipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
> A SCIM resource URI of https://scim.example.com/users/
> ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 might be identified in the event payload
> as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45c=
e9a242bd3859c82c4
> =E2=80=9D
>
> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depend=
s
> on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the subj=
ect. This means
> that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a
> single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics u=
p to the
> profiles.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *"Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <
> ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,
> Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled
> (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
> 1. "account-disabled"
> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multipl=
e
> logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from diff=
erent
> profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
> backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), the=
n
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one=
 SET.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
> *To: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current
> backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own
> duplicate definitions and meanings.
>
> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>
> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the
> differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiate=
d
> events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive o=
ff
> of risk calculations like password reset.
>
> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not
> commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW singl=
e
> sign out not expected.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same
> family that agree on top level claims.
>
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a
> alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>
> John B.
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub
> problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is
> probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflictin=
g
> semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B say=
s it=E2=80=99s an
> email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way =
to declare
> subject of their events, then they cannot be present within the same toke=
n.
> This incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily misse=
d
> by groups profiling SET.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> *To: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil
> Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jw=
t
> if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.
>
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better bu=
t
> we can agree on a convention.
>
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and
> confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using t=
he
> typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually
> gets you into trouble.
>
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a
> good idea.
>
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for
> things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is
> scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not b=
e
> required for all event types.
>
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue=
.
>
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>
> John B.
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
> Did I miss anything?
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
> Thanks,
>     Yaron
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
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>                      >
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>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
> <%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send =
it to an IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or ma=
ybe I misunderstand.<div><br></div><div>We agree on &quot;iss&quot; I think=
, in this case it points to the RP. A top level &quot;sub&quot; though is p=
roblematic, The RP in many cases has the opaque &quot;sub&quot; as issued b=
y the IdP, but this value is globally unique only when combined with the Id=
P &quot;iss&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>Not sure why event.aud would be=
 necessary?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div=
></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Rich=
er <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blan=
k">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the &quot;most
      support&quot;. Instead I&#39;m seeing a lot of call for having &quot;=
sub&quot;
      defined clearly in the event payload only.<br>
    </p>
    <p>The &quot;sub&quot; of the main body is the subject as known by the =
issuer
      of the SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject
      is known by at the target of the SET. There are many cases where
      this isn&#39;t true, and so far one exception case where it is,
      sometimes. We should not be writing this for the exception.</p>
    <p>But I think there&#39;s a pretty clear path forward. The &quot;sub&q=
uot; in the
      body of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of
      the &quot;iss&quot; of the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No =
global
      namespaces, no restrictions on content, no formats -- it&#39;s an
      opaque (to the SET standard) value in the domain of the issuer of
      the SET. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the
      event itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the
      context in which the event will be *received*, not in which it was
      *issued*. Sometimes those are the same, more often (as we&#39;re
      seeing) we can&#39;t guarantee that. We should not depend on that and
      we should not treat the exceptional case as the usual, no matter
      what syntax another group has come up with. <br>
    </p>
    <p>So here&#39;s the thing. I think the &quot;sub&quot; of an event sho=
uld be
      optional, and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles
      should not places further constraints on that. Events themselves
      should be self-contained. I regret that we didn&#39;t make the
      registration object in RFC7591 more self-contained, as that&#39;s
      caused implementation and extension issues. I think events should
      always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the context of
      where the event is being consumed. We need to define what iss/sub
      mean (in a grand sense) inside the event object in this document,
      so that different events don&#39;t reinvent the same thing over and
      over. If a profile wants to leave that out because they don&#39;t nee=
d
      an identifier for the payload, then they can leave it out. If they
      want to leave it out because they want to assume there will
      &quot;always&quot; be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have =
a
      problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does,
      have its own identifier which can&#39;t be assumed to be universal.
      Proposing a global subject namespace or format, as has been
      suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludicrous and will never fly
      as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people and objects has
      always worked. We should have a clear semantic data structure that
      can be extended and used by all of the use cases that we&#39;ve
      adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event,
      is going to just lead to things being broken and back-patched
      later on. But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside
      the event? They can still do that, but I think that&#39;s pretty daft=
.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>In summary:</p>
    <ul>
      <li>iss: issuer of the event</li>
      <li>sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event</li=
>
      <li>event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of
        the event<br>
      </li>
      <li>event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by
        the recipient of the event</li>
      <li>event.aud: recipient of the event</li>
    </ul>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>=C2=A0-- Justin<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125moz-cite-prefix">On 6/21/2017 7:45 =
PM, Mike Jones wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
     =20
     =20
      <div class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most
          support is keeping things as they are, leaving it up to
          profiles and applications to define which claims they use and
          how they use them.</p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use
          the language below.</p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=93 Mike</p>
        <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From:
            </b><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">P=
hil Hunt</a><br>
            <b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
            <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Richard Backman, Annabelle</a><br>
            <b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_=
blank">Marius Scurtescu</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D=
"_blank">
              John Bradley</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de" target=3D"_blank">Henk Birkholz</a>;
            <a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">Justin
              Richer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">
              Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Mike Jones</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">
              ID Events Mailing List</a><br>
            <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
            confusion and distinct SET issuer</p>
        </div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div>So I understand what is being proposed is:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><font face=3D"Courier New">If the event
            type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and th=
e issuer of
            the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then
            =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, =
the subject
            of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims r=
equired to
            uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event
            payload.</font></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be
          represented in a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the=
 event
          payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4&quot;</div>
        <div>A SCIM resource URI of <a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/use=
rs/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" target=3D"_blank">
https://scim.example.com/<wbr>users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr=
>c4</a>
          might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd=
3859c82c4" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.<wbr>com/users/<wbr>ac1fa=
ebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>=E2=80=9D</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top
          level sub claim and depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the sa=
me for the
          event issuer AND the subject. This means that no party may
          issue logout events on behalf of the OP.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div>
            <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;word-wrap:break-word">
              <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                  <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                    <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                      <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                        <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                          <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                            <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                              <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                  <div><span class=3D"m_-665697294368534212=
5Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;bor=
der-spacing:0px">
                                      <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>Phil</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>Oracle
                                              Corporation, Identity
                                              Cloud Services Architect
                                              &amp; Standards</div>
                                            <div>@independentid</div>
                                            <div><a href=3D"http://www.inde=
pendentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
              <div>On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard
                Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:</div>
              <br class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-interchange-newline"=
>
              <div>
                <div class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125WordSection1" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-colo=
r:rgb(255,255,255)">
                  <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                    <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">Fair point. If we do not
                      intend to support multiple profiles within a
                      single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about lea=
ving
                      sub semantics up to the profiles.<u></u><u></u></span=
></div>
                  <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                    <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
                  <div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      --=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
                  </div>
                  <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                    <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
                  <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                    <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>
                  <div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-wid=
th:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      <b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fro=
m:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com</a>&gt;<br>
                        <b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday,
                        June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br>
                        <b>To:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard
                        Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rich=
anna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
                        <b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Phil
                        Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@or=
acle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                        John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,
                        Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@s=
it.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a=
>&gt;,
                        Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu=
" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                        Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                        Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                        ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                        <b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re:
                        [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token
                        confusion and distinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      <u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      Example for multiple events within same profile:
                      IdP account is disabled (because of hijacking),
                      this can lead to two events:<u></u><u></u></div>
                    <div>
                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                        1. &quot;account-disabled&quot;<u></u><u></u></div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                        2. &quot;sessions-revoked&quot;<u></u><u></u></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      <br clear=3D"all">
                      <u></u><u></u></div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                          Marius<u></u><u></u></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                      <u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
                    <div>
                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                        On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard
                        Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@a=
mazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
                      <blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none soli=
d;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in =
0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">The spec
                                says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be
                                used to express multiple logical events.
                                If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express ev=
ents
                                from different profiles that correspond
                                to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
                                backchannel logout event alongside a
                                hypothetical RISC logout event), then
                                I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that lea=
ves
                                for multiple events in one SET.</span><u></=
u><u></u></div>
                            <div>
                              <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                --=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                              <div>
                                Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></di=
v>
                              <div>
                                Identity Services<u></u><u></u></div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                            <div>
                              <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                            <div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;bord=
er-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                              <div>
                                <b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-even=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;
                                  on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                  <b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-665697294368534=
2125Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday,
                                  June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br>
                                  <b>To:<span class=3D"m_-66569729436853421=
25Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>John
                                  Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7j=
tb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">=
ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                  <b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-66569729436853421=
25Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard
                                  Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                  Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.=
birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,
                                  Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jrich=
er@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bla=
nk">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                  Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ms=
curtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                  Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaron=
f.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
                                  Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Micha=
el.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                  ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <br>
                                    <b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943=
685342125Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re:
                                    [Id-event] solution for Id/Access
                                    Token confusion and distinct SET
                                    issuer<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    Separate or combined may be
                                    evolving. Mike wants to keep the
                                    current backchannel logout very
                                    narrowly scoped. He suggested risc
                                    define its own duplicate definitions
                                    and meanings.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    That leads me to believe we will
                                    have multi-type events in practice.<u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    Session cancellation can occur for
                                    many reasons. One of the
                                    differentiators we had tried to make
                                    was an assumption that user
                                    initiated events would be part of
                                    connect. Risk would cover variations
                                    that drive off of risk calculations
                                    like password reset.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    There are also signout events at
                                    rp&#39;s to let the OP know. These are
                                    not commands but notification that a
                                    resource session is cancelled. IOW
                                    single sign out not expected.=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842=
569385159988AppleMailSignature">
                                  <div>
                                    <br>
                                    Phil<u></u><u></u></div>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                    <br>
                                    On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John
                                    Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve=
7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-=
bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                  <div>
                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                      I thought we decided that we are
                                      only allowing set messages form
                                      the same family that agree on top
                                      level claims.<u></u><u></u></div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                        =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                        Otherwise there can be no top
                                        level claims and we are really
                                        defining a alternative format to
                                        JWT in some ways.<u></u><u></u></di=
v>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                        =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                        John B.<u></u><u></u></div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                        =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                      <div>
                                        <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt=
;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54
                                              PM, Richard Backman,
                                              Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;
                                              wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I agree with
                                                  John that the JWT type
                                                  confusion problem and
                                                  the SET sub problem
                                                  can and should be
                                                  discussed separately.
                                                  The secevents WG is
                                                  probably not the right
                                                  setting to discuss the
                                                  former.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My concern
                                                  with the sub claim is
                                                  that two profiles may
                                                  dictate conflicting
                                                  semantics (e.g.
                                                  Profile A says it=E2=80=
=99s a
                                                  phone number, Profile
                                                  B says it=E2=80=99s an em=
ail
                                                  address). If these
                                                  profiles don=E2=80=99t pr=
ovide
                                                  an alternate way to
                                                  declare subject of
                                                  their events, then
                                                  they cannot be present
                                                  within the same token.
                                                  This incompatibility
                                                  trap seems like
                                                  something that could
                                                  be easily missed by
                                                  groups profiling SET.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  --=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  Annabelle Richard
                                                  Backman<u></u><u></u></di=
v>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  Identity Services<u></u><=
u></u></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                <span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style=3D"border-style:soli=
d none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:=
3pt 0in 0in">
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-462984=
2569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">John
                                                    Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Date:<span class=3D"=
m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></b>Wednesday,
                                                    June 21, 2017 at
                                                    1:39 PM<br>
                                                    <b>To:<span class=3D"m_=
-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>Yaron
                                                    Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_=
-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>Justin
                                                    Richer &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jricher@mit.edu" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;,
                                                    Marius Scurtescu
                                                    &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
scurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Annabelle Richard
                                                    &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ichanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    Michael Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;,
                                                    ID Events Mailing
                                                    List &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                    Henk Birkholz &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de<=
/a>&gt;<br>
                                                    <b>Subject:<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Re:
                                                    [Id-event] solution
                                                    for Id/Access Token
                                                    confusion and
                                                    distinct SET issuer</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;backgro=
und-color:white">
                                                In the envelope typ is a
                                                media/mime type.=C2=A0
                                                Registering
                                                application/idt+jwt if
                                                we register jwt as a
                                                structured name sufix. =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  Using the cty is also
                                                  possible. =C2=A0 I need t=
o
                                                  think about what is
                                                  better but we can
                                                  agree on a convention.<u>=
</u><u></u></div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    Not everything is
                                                    going to be a set
                                                    token like not every
                                                    JWS is a JWT.<u></u><u>=
</u></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    If we are going to
                                                    define processing
                                                    rules to stop
                                                    collisions and
                                                    confusion around JWT
                                                    for different
                                                    purposes, we should
                                                    just start using the
                                                    typ parameter based
                                                    on the existing
                                                    spec.<u></u><u></u></di=
v>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    In general content
                                                    sniffing if there is
                                                    more than one option
                                                    eventually gets you
                                                    into trouble.<u></u><u>=
</u></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    I am not convinced
                                                    that forcing there
                                                    to be no sub at the
                                                    top level is a good
                                                    idea. =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    It is not the way we
                                                    should differentiate
                                                    between SET and
                                                    id_tokens.<u></u><u></u=
></div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      If sub is not
                                                      allowed at the top
                                                      level people will
                                                      do non SET JWT for
                                                      things where the
                                                      subject is scoped
                                                      to the iss of the
                                                      token.<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      I think defining
                                                      sub to be part of
                                                      the event for
                                                      cases where the
                                                      sub is scoped
                                                      differently from
                                                      the issuer of the
                                                      token is fine, but
                                                      should not be
                                                      required for all
                                                      event types.<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      I think we should
                                                      solve the
                                                      confusion issue
                                                      separately from
                                                      the sub issue.<u></u>=
<u></u></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      Sorry I am at CIS
                                                      so trying to catch
                                                      up on lists.<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      John B.<u></u><u></u>=
</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <blockquote style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          On Jun 17,
                                                          2017, at 3:45
                                                          PM, Yaron
                                                          Sheffer &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          So to
                                                          summarize what
                                                          I&#39;m seeing on
                                                          this thread:<u></=
u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Everybody
                                                          agrees with
                                                          Marius&#39;s
                                                          short-term
                                                          solution,
                                                          specific rules
                                                          for &quot;sub&quo=
t; and
                                                          &quot;iss&quot; t=
hat can
                                                          be defined in
                                                          the SET spec.<u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Almost
                                                          everybody
                                                          agrees on a
                                                          long-term
                                                          &quot;usage&quot;=
 claim
                                                          (&quot;type&quot;=
 is
                                                          taken) that
                                                          should be
                                                          defined
                                                          elsewhere,
                                                          e.g. in the
                                                          JWT BCP.<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Did I miss
                                                          anything?<u></u><=
u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          By the way, if
                                                          we do add a
                                                          &quot;usage&quot;=
 claim,
                                                          we need to
                                                          also use it in
                                                          the SET
                                                          document
                                                          before it is
                                                          published.<u></u>=
<u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Thanks,<u></u><u>=
</u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          On 15/06/17
                                                          22:08, Justin
                                                          Richer wrote:<u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          +1 to this as
                                                          well.<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0=E2=80=94 J=
ustin<u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          On Jun 15,
                                                          2017, at 1:09
                                                          PM, Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          +1 to what
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          said.<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Also, Mike you
                                                          are missing
                                                          the other
                                                          requirement,
                                                          for RPs to
                                                          send events to
                                                          an IdP. The
                                                          iss+sub pair
                                                          at the top
                                                          level is
                                                          broken in this
                                                          case.<u></u><u></=
u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <br clear=3D"all"=
>
                                                          <u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Marius<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          On Wed, Jun
                                                          14, 2017 at
                                                          5:33 PM, Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span>=
</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=
=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          +1<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div id=3D"m_-665=
6972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignatu=
re">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div id=3D"m_-665=
6972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignatu=
re">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Phil<u></u><u></u=
></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                                                          Jun 14, 2017,
                                                          at 5:25 PM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.co=
m</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike,</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your
                                                          explanation
                                                          for why this
                                                          is a
                                                          non-problem is
                                                          dependent upon
                                                          side effects
                                                          of elements of
                                                          OpenID Connect
                                                          that were not
                                                          designed to
                                                          solve this
                                                          issue. As a
                                                          result, I see
                                                          several issues
                                                          with it:</span><u=
></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_-66=
56972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"=
>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-665697294368=
5342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
                                                          caller of the
                                                          Token Endpoint
                                                          is the only
                                                          party that can
                                                          be certain
                                                          that a
                                                          nonce-less ID
                                                          Token is
                                                          really an ID
                                                          Token. Any
                                                          party that the
                                                          caller passes
                                                          the ID Token
                                                          off to has no
                                                          way to verify
                                                          its
                                                          provenance.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_-66=
56972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"=
>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-665697294368=
5342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Any
                                                          future ID
                                                          Token
                                                          distribution
                                                          method needs
                                                          to solve this
                                                          problem again.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_-66=
56972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"=
>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-462984256938=
5159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No
                                                          other profile
                                                          of JWT can
                                                          ever use the
                                                          &quot;nonce=E2=80=
=9D claim.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                                                          <p class=3D"m_-66=
56972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph"=
>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-462984256938=
5159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This
                                                          is only a
                                                          solution for
                                                          ID Tokens.
                                                          Every other
                                                          JWT profile
                                                          that cares
                                                          about
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          has to invent
                                                          its own
                                                          solution to
                                                          the problem.</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We
                                                          know from
                                                          experience
                                                          that naming
                                                          collisions and
                                                          replay attacks
                                                          are both
                                                          things that
                                                          happen. What=E2=
=80=99s
                                                          being proposed
                                                          is a simple,
                                                          defensive
                                                          measure
                                                          against these
                                                          risks. You
                                                          brought up JWT
                                                          libraries: a
                                                          general
                                                          solution
                                                          actually makes
                                                          it easier to
                                                          use common
                                                          libraries for
                                                          JWT parsing. A
                                                          =E2=80=9Cusage-aw=
are=E2=80=9D
                                                          JWT library
                                                          could handle
                                                          disambiguation
                                                          for any JWT
                                                          profile,
                                                          whereas with
                                                          the status quo
                                                          each profile
                                                          would require
                                                          unique logic.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          --=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<u></u><u>=
</u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bor=
der-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196=
,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125=
m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span=
></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Wednesday,
                                                          June 14, 2017
                                                          at 1:16 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle&quot;
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></=
a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&g=
t;,
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">You=E2=80=99ve
                                                          heard of
                                                          =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e
                                                          optimization=E2=
=80=9D.=C2=A0
                                                          I=E2=80=99d
                                                          characterize
                                                          the proposals
                                                          in this thread
                                                          as =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture
                                                          pessimation=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=93
                                                          making things
                                                          that can and
                                                          should be
                                                          simple
                                                          complex,
                                                          without data
                                                          showing
                                                          there=E2=80=99s a=
ny
                                                          need to do so.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u=
></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mandatory
                                                          solutions are
                                                          being proposed
                                                          in this thread
                                                          to problems
                                                          that there=E2=80=
=99s
                                                          no evidence
                                                          that we
                                                          actually even
                                                          have.=C2=A0 It=E2=
=80=99s
                                                          already been
                                                          established
                                                          that it=E2=80=99s
                                                          impossible for
                                                          a SET to be
                                                          confused for
                                                          an ID Token =E2=
=80=93
                                                          see<span class=3D=
"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRo=
ai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/curre=
nt/<wbr>msg00428.html</span></a>.=C2=A0
                                                          If people have
                                                          data showing
                                                          that this is
                                                          possible with
                                                          specific kinds
                                                          of Access
                                                          Tokens or
                                                          other real JWT
                                                          deployments,
                                                          please provide
                                                          specifics, so
                                                          that we can
                                                          use that data
                                                          to inform
                                                          appropriate
                                                          engineering
                                                          choices on our
                                                          part.</span><u></=
u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u=
></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">The
                                                          proposed
                                                          =E2=80=9Csolution=
s=E2=80=9D,
                                                          such as
                                                          prohibiting
                                                          the use of
                                                          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D in the
                                                          normal way, or
                                                          requiring a
                                                          type claim,
                                                          would make
                                                          previously
                                                          simple things
                                                          unnecessarily
                                                          complex.=C2=A0 Ye=
s,
                                                          then the
                                                          result is then
                                                          different than
                                                          a normal JWT
                                                          but a
                                                          consequence of
                                                          this is that
                                                          custom parsing
                                                          code would
                                                          have to be
                                                          used, rather
                                                          than a
                                                          standard JWT
                                                          parser.=C2=A0 The
                                                          more unwieldy
                                                          we make it to
                                                          use SETs, the
                                                          more likely
                                                          developers are
                                                          to just create
                                                          their own data
                                                          structures.=C2=A0
                                                          Keeping it
                                                          simple is the
                                                          key to
                                                          adoption.=C2=A0
                                                          Standards are
                                                          only useful if
                                                          they are
                                                          actually used.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u=
></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
                                                          -- Mike</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bor=
der-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225=
,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <b><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></spa=
n><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event
                                                          [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@i=
etf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-462984256938=
5159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On
                                                          Behalf Of<span cl=
ass=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span=
 class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, June
                                                          13, 2017 5:33
                                                          PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span c=
lass=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;;
                                                          Henk Birkholz
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b><span c=
lass=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&g=
t;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><s=
pan class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Echoing
                                                          Marius=E2=80=99s
                                                          question: can
                                                          you explain
                                                          what you mean
                                                          by =E2=80=9Cinten=
d=E2=80=9D?</span><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To
                                                          your first
                                                          question, I
                                                          think a better
                                                          analogy would
                                                          be the X.509
                                                          Key Usage
                                                          extension: a
                                                          multi-valued
                                                          property that
                                                          declares the
                                                          intended
                                                          purpose of the
                                                          JWT, and that
                                                          a recipient
                                                          may refer to
                                                          when
                                                          determining
                                                          whether to
                                                          accept a JWT
                                                          being
                                                          presented to
                                                          it in some
                                                          context.</span><u=
></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          --=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<u></u><u>=
</u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style=3D"bor=
der-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196=
,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125=
m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span=
></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date:<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Tuesday,
                                                          June 13, 2017
                                                          at 11:05 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:<span class=
=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&g=
t;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          On Tue, Jun
                                                          13, 2017 at
                                                          2:11 AM, Henk
                                                          Birkholz &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=
=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          And a 2nd
                                                          question.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          What semantics
                                                          would &quot;usage=
&quot;
                                                          provide that
                                                          that are not
                                                          covered via
                                                          &quot;intend&quot=
;,
                                                          &quot;audience&qu=
ot;,
                                                          and &quot;scope&q=
uot;?<u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          &quot;aud&quot;
                                                          (audience)
                                                          specifies the
                                                          target client,
                                                          but not the
                                                          intended usage
                                                          (access token
                                                          to authorize
                                                          resource
                                                          access or SET
                                                          to communicate
                                                          a security
                                                          event?)<u></u><u>=
</u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          &quot;scope&quot;=
 is not
                                                          used by SET.<u></=
u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          I don&#39;t know
                                                          what do you
                                                          mean by
                                                          &quot;intend&quot=
; (or
                                                          intent)?<u></u><u=
></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=
=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Henk<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On 06/13/2017
                                                          01:01 AM,
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman,
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=
=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          Thanks for
                                                          putting this
                                                          together!<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I think the
                                                          assumptions
                                                          inherent in
                                                          3.9 are
                                                          flawed:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=B7We can=E2=
=80=99t
                                                          guarantee that
                                                          every type of
                                                          JWT will have
                                                          a mutually
                                                          exclusive set
                                                          of valid
                                                          claims and/or
                                                          header
                                                          parameters,
                                                          and enforcing
                                                          this requires
                                                          a =E2=80=9Cfail o=
n an
                                                          unrecognized
                                                          claim=E2=80=9D
                                                          approach to
                                                          ensure that
                                                          JWTs from some
                                                          future spec
                                                          can=E2=80=99t be
                                                          mistaken for
                                                          JWTs from a
                                                          current spec.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=B7It is
                                                          unrealistic to
                                                          expect
                                                          implementers
                                                          to adhere to
                                                          the =E2=80=9Cdiff=
erent
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of JWTs=E2=
=80=9D
                                                          rule. Whether
                                                          mandated by
                                                          the spec or
                                                          not,
                                                          implementers
                                                          will ignore
                                                          this because
                                                          managing one
                                                          key is easier
                                                          than managing
                                                          N different
                                                          keys.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=B7Ditto for
                                                          =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D and
                                                          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D claims.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          +1 for a
                                                          =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=
=80=9D or
                                                          =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=
=80=9D
                                                          claim/header
                                                          parameter.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          --<span class=3D"=
m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Annabelle
                                                          Richard
                                                          Backman<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Identity
                                                          Services<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          *From:
                                                          *Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bou=
nces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span>=
</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Date:
                                                          *Monday, June
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:18 PM<br>
                                                          *To: *Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Cc: *Adam
                                                          Dawes &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span>=
</a>&gt;,
                                                          &quot;matake, nov=
&quot;
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;,
                                                          ID Events
                                                          Mailing List
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&g=
t;,
                                                          &quot;Phil Hunt
                                                          (IDM)&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          *Subject: *Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          solution for
                                                          Id/Access
                                                          Token
                                                          confusion and
                                                          distinct SET
                                                          issuer<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Agreed. Note
                                                          that there is
                                                          still lots of
                                                          discussion on
                                                          what should be
                                                          in 3.9.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On Mon, Jun
                                                          12, 2017 at
                                                          3:15 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tha=
nks for
                                                          the pointer
                                                          Dick, very
                                                          good timing
                                                          :-)<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The=
 issue
                                                          is described
                                                          by &quot;2.7.
                                                          Cross-JWT
                                                          Confusion&quot; a=
nd
                                                          the<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mit=
igation
                                                          is in &quot;3.9.
                                                          Use Mutually
                                                          Exclusive
                                                          Validation
                                                          Rules for<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dif=
ferent
                                                          Kinds of
                                                          JWTs&quot;,
                                                          specifically
                                                          &quot;Use differe=
nt
                                                          sets of<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 req=
uired
                                                          claims...&quot;,
                                                          &quot;Use differe=
nt
                                                          keys for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWT=
s.&quot; and
                                                          &quot;Use differe=
nt
                                                          issuers for
                                                          different
                                                          kinds of
                                                          JWTs.&quot;.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I s=
till
                                                          think that a
                                                          &quot;type&quot; =
claim
                                                          would bring a
                                                          lot of clarity
                                                          and<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 saf=
ety.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mar=
ius<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On =
Thu,
                                                          Jun 8, 2017 at
                                                          9:59 PM, Dick
                                                          Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/span></a><br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com=
</span></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron,
                                                          Mike and I
                                                          just published
                                                          an BCP ID for
                                                          JWT<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE=
ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;=
s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 9:02
                                                          PM Adam Dawes
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a><b=
r>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span=
></a>&gt;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I
                                                          was initially
                                                          a fan of
                                                          keeping SETS
                                                          to be very
                                                          similar to<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id
                                                          tokens but I
                                                          now think this
                                                          is a better
                                                          plan.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On
                                                          Thu, Jun 8,
                                                          2017 at 6:56
                                                          PM matake, nov
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt=
;&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 +1
                                                          especially for
                                                          &quot;type&quot;<=
br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 2017-06-09
                                                          10:32
                                                          GMT+09:00 Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM)<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 +1<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Phil<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On
                                                          Jun 8, 2017,
                                                          at 6:28 PM,
                                                          Marius
                                                          Scurtescu<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscur=
tescu@google.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          &lt;mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</span></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt;
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          There were a
                                                          couple of
                                                          proposals on
                                                          how to<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          distinguish
                                                          SETs from Id
                                                          Tokens and
                                                          Access Tokens
                                                          in<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 such a
                                                          way that naive
implementations will not<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 confuse
                                                          one for the
                                                          other and open
                                                          up security<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          vulnerabilities.<=
br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          There is also
                                                          another
                                                          important
                                                          requirement:
                                                          the<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 SET
                                                          issuer in some
                                                          cases must be
                                                          different from
                                                          the<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;sub&quot;
                                                          issuer. This
                                                          is the case of
                                                          an RP sending
                                                          SETs<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 to an
                                                          IdP.<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          With these
                                                          requirements
                                                          in mind I
                                                          propose the<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          following:<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt; -
                                                          both &quot;sub&qu=
ot; and
                                                          &quot;iss&quot; t=
o be
                                                          defined at the
                                                          event<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 level<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt; -
                                                          &quot;iss&quot; a=
t event
                                                          level and at
                                                          top SET level
                                                          can<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 be
                                                          different<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt; -
                                                          &quot;iss&quot; a=
nd
                                                          &quot;sub&quot; a=
t event
                                                          level can be
                                                          different<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 across
                                                          events in the
                                                          same SET<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt; -
                                                          &quot;sub&quot; s=
hould
                                                          NOT be present
                                                          at the top SET<br=
>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 level
                                                          (this solves
                                                          the
                                                          disambiguation),
                                                          please note<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;should&quot;
                                                          and not &quot;mus=
t&quot;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          This solution
                                                          also allows
                                                          different
                                                          profiles that<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 define
                                                          event types to
                                                          define
                                                          additional
                                                          claims<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 related
                                                          to sub (like
                                                          email or
                                                          phone_number)
                                                          and<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 since
                                                          all these
                                                          claims will be
                                                          at the event
                                                          level<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 there
                                                          will be no
                                                          collisions or
                                                          ambiguity.<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          Another
                                                          proposal
                                                          (which I
                                                          supported) was
                                                          to<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 define a
                                                          composite
                                                          &quot;aud&quot; c=
laim.
                                                          This is not
                                                          solving<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 the
                                                          requirement
                                                          for a
                                                          distinct=C2=A0 SE=
T
                                                          issuer. Also,<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 having
                                                          the same claim
                                                          name having
                                                          different
                                                          syntax<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 in
                                                          different
                                                          token types
                                                          could lead to
                                                          confusion.<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          And yet
                                                          another
                                                          proposal was
                                                          to introduce a
                                                          new<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 claim
                                                          for JWTs that
                                                          defines a
                                                          &quot;type&quot;.=
 This
                                                          is not<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          practical in
                                                          the short
                                                          term, and it
                                                          also is not<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 solving
                                                          the distinct
                                                          issuer
                                                          requirement,
                                                          but I think<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 this is
                                                          something the
                                                          JWT group
                                                          should
                                                          seriously<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          consider.<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          Thoughts?<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          Marius<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          _________________=
_____________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<u></=
u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_-66569729436=
85342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">I<wbr>d-event@ie=
tf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg=
&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">https://urldefense.<wbr>proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-<wbr>3A__w=
ww.ietf.org_mailman_<wbr>listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;<wbr>c=3D<w=
br>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKu=
gCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>JmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_<=
wbr>jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D<wbr>5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOC<wbr>d=
0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</span></a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0
                                                          _________________=
_____________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
                                                          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0<span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-462=
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_____________<wbr>_________________<br>
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t@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-462984256938515=
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nt@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bl=
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                                                          Adam Dawes |
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ine" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span=
></a>&gt;
                                                          |<a href=3D"tel:%=
2B1%20650-214-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">+1
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n></a><br>
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l:%28650%29%20214-2410" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
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_____________<wbr>_________________<br>
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5159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.=
org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_-665=
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t;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-=
event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
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                                                          Subscribe to
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pan><br>
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                                                          Subscribe to
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DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00=
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7SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7=
JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7=
oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<w=
br>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
                                                          </blockquote>
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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                                                          <a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listi=
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JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7=
oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<w=
br>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
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                                                          <div>
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                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
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                                                          <blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
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                                                          <a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listi=
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JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7=
oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<=
wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2De=
vent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY05=
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GzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></=
u></div>
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                                                          </blockquote>
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                                                          </blockquote>
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                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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                                                          <a href=3D"mailto=
:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listi=
nfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI=
-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C72=
9-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<w=
br>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <u></u><u></u></p=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>_________________<u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
                                                          <pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial">Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
                                                          <pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
                                                          <pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw=
&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u><=
/u><u></u></pre>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                                          Id-event
                                                          mailing list<br>
                                                          <a href=3D"mailto=
:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listi=
nfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI=
-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C72=
9-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></=
u><u></u></div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;b=
ackground-color:white">
                                                      =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                      </div>
                                      <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
                                        =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-=
bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite">
                                  <div>
                                    <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                      Id-event mailing list<br>
                                      <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
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Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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I would prefer a rule where sub and iss are *always* in the same =
location.

If we have to have all these if-then exceptions that limits use and =
increase complexities.

IMO - =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level was designed for a specific =
domain of use.  While some SET usage can align, that=E2=80=99s not =
necessarily a good thing. The alignment further serves to make it harder =
to distinguish SETs for access and ID Tokens.

I keep coming back to consistency for all SETs as being less complex and =
open to wider usage.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 26, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it to an =
IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or maybe I =
misunderstand.
>=20
> We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. A top =
level "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the opaque =
"sub" as issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique only when =
combined with the IdP "iss".
>=20
> Not sure why event.aud would be necessary?
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most support". =
Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the =
event payload only.
>=20
> The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer of =
the SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is known =
by at the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn't true, =
and so far one exception case where it is, sometimes. We should not be =
writing this for the exception.
>=20
> But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the body =
of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of =
the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global namespaces, no =
restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an opaque (to the SET =
standard) value in the domain of the issuer of the SET.=20
>=20
> Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event =
itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in =
which the event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. =
Sometimes those are the same, more often (as we're seeing) we can't =
guarantee that. We should not depend on that and we should not treat the =
exceptional case as the usual, no matter what syntax another group has =
come up with.=20
>=20
> So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be optional, =
and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should not places =
further constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-contained. =
I regret that we didn't make the registration object in RFC7591 more =
self-contained, as that's caused implementation and extension issues. I =
think events should always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the =
context of where the event is being consumed. We need to define what =
iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside the event object in this =
document, so that different events don't reinvent the same thing over =
and over. If a profile wants to leave that out because they don't need =
an identifier for the payload, then they can leave it out. If they want =
to leave it out because they want to assume there will "always" be an =
iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a problem with that. The =
issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have its own identifier which =
can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a global subject namespace =
or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludicrous =
and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people and =
objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic data =
structure that can be extended and used by all of the use cases that =
we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event, =
is going to just lead to things being broken and back-patched later on. =
But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside the event? They =
can still do that, but I think that's pretty daft.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> In summary:
>=20
> iss: issuer of the event
> sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event
> event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the event
> event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the =
recipient of the event
> event.aud: recipient of the event
>=20
>=20
>  -- Justin
>=20
>=20
> On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
>> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as =
they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which =
claims they use and how they use them.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=93 Mike
>>=20
>> From: Phil Hunt <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
>> To: Richard Backman, Annabelle <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>
>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; =
Mike Jones <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>>=20
>> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, =
and the issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, =
then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the =
subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims =
required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event =
payload.
>>=20
>> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
>> A SCIM resource URI of =
https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 =
<https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4> might =
be identified in the event payload as: =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a24=
2bd3859c82c4 =
<https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4>=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and =
depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND =
the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf =
of the OP.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D5nEWLHNlT6T5AGTIYqLOHQWDsyMU6aBF12=
pECG2xhHM&s=3DUhoAQmpJ0QMVgVUkW1TR6-lhKLkJfFa_81Mk-_nllOc&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within =
a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub =
semantics up to the profiles.
>>> =20
>>> --=20
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> Identity Services
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
>>> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>>> Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>> =20
>>> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is =
disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
>>> 1. "account-disabled"
>>> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>>>=20
>>> Marius
>>> =20
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express =
multiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events =
from different profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. =
an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout =
event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple =
events in one SET.
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Identity Services
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
>>>> To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>>>> =20
>>>> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the =
current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc =
define its own duplicate definitions and meanings.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in =
practice.
>>>> =20
>>>> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the =
differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user =
initiated events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations =
that drive off of risk calculations like password reset.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are =
not commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW =
single sign out not expected.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form =
the same family that agree on top level claims.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really =
defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> John B.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET =
sub problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is =
probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate =
conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, =
Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=
=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then =
they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap =
seems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling =
SET.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
>>>>>> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, =
Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, =
Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, =
Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is =
better but we can agree on a convention.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a =
JWT.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and =
confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using =
the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top =
level is a good idea. =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and =
id_tokens.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT =
for things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the =
sub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but =
should not be required for all event types.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the =
sub issue.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>>>>>>> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific =
rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>>>>>>> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is =
taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>>>>>>> Did I miss anything?
>>>>>>> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it =
in the SET document before it is published.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>>> +1 to this as well.=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to =
send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in =
this case.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party =
that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. =
Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to =
verify its provenance.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to =
solve this problem again.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D=
 claim.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other =
JWT profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own =
solution to the problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay =
attacks are both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a =
simple, defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT =
libraries: a general solution actually makes it easier to use common =
libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library =
could handle disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status =
quo each profile would require unique logic.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D=
.  I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprema=
ture pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to =
problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  =
It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a =
SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as =
prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or =
requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things =
unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a =
normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would =
have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy =
we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create =
their own data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  =
Standards are only useful if they are actually used.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>                                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you =
mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be =
the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the =
intended purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when =
determining whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some =
context.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> And a 2nd question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not =
covered via "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the =
intended usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to =
communicate a security event?)
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> "scope" is not used by SET.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for putting this together!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT =
will have a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header =
parameters, and enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an =
unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that JWTs from some =
future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere =
to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D =
rule. Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on =
what should be in 3.9.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" =
and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive =
Validation Rules for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different =
sets of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different =
kinds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds =
of JWTs.".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of =
clarity and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     safety.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes =
<adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         <mailto:adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be =
very similar to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             id tokens but I now think this is a better =
plan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
<nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 +1 especially for "type"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     +1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There were a couple of proposals on =
how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and =
Access Tokens in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     such a way that naive implementations =
will not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     confuse one for the other and open up =
security
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     vulnerabilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > There is also another important =
requirement: the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     SET issuer in some cases must be =
different from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an =
RP sending SETs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     to an IdP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > With these requirements in mind I =
propose the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be =
defined at the event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top =
SET level can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level =
can be different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     across events in the same SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at =
the top SET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     level (this solves the =
disambiguation), please note
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     "should" and not "must"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > This solution also allows different =
profiles that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     define event types to define =
additional claims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     related to sub (like email or =
phone_number) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     since all these claims will be at the =
event level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     there will be no collisions or =
ambiguity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Another proposal (which I =
supported) was to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This =
is not solving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET =
issuer. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     having the same claim name having =
different syntax
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     in different token types could lead to =
confusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > And yet another proposal was to =
introduce a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". =
This is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     practical in the short term, and it =
also is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     solving the distinct issuer =
requirement, but I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     this is something the JWT group should =
seriously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     consider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      > Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     =
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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xWI&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                     =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
|adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <mailto:adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 =
<tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             =
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>         learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshm=
Ql7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSW=
Ws&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl=
2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu=
5SQ&e=3D>
>>> =20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D5nEWLHNlT6T5AGT=
IYqLOHQWDsyMU6aBF12pECG2xhHM&s=3DG9H4qR9aSCbjpURD9Ear_fgjhUkH_n-3V1CZMkIOc=
_8&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D5nEWLHNlT6T5AG=
TIYqLOHQWDsyMU6aBF12pECG2xhHM&s=3DG9H4qR9aSCbjpURD9Ear_fgjhUkH_n-3V1CZMkIO=
c_8&e=3D>

--Apple-Mail=_47FDDAA3-506B-4430-BD42-7FE010FEB577
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I would prefer a rule where sub and iss are *always* in the =
same location.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we =
have to have all these if-then exceptions that limits use and increase =
complexities.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">IMO - =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level was designed for =
a specific domain of use. &nbsp;While some SET usage can align, that=E2=80=
=99s not necessarily a good thing. The alignment further serves to make =
it harder to distinguish SETs for access and ID Tokens.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I keep coming back to =
consistency for all SETs as being less complex and open to wider =
usage.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 26, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it =
to an IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or =
maybe I misunderstand.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. =
A top level "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the =
opaque "sub" as issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique =
only when combined with the IdP "iss".</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Not sure why event.aud would be =
necessary?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin =
Richer<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><p class=3D"">Mike, this =
is not at all what I see for having the "most support". Instead I'm =
seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the event =
payload only.<br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"">The "sub" of the main body =
is the subject as known by the issuer of the SET itself. This might be =
the same subject that the subject is known by at the target of the SET. =
There are many cases where this isn't true, and so far one exception =
case where it is, sometimes. We should not be writing this for the =
exception.</p><p class=3D"">But I think there's a pretty clear path =
forward. The "sub" in the body of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* =
in the context of the "iss" of the SET. Always, full stop, no =
exceptions. No global namespaces, no restrictions on content, no formats =
-- it's an opaque (to the SET standard) value in the domain of the =
issuer of the SET.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></p><p class=3D"">Event payloads, defined in profiles, =
describe a subject of the event itself. Importantly, this is the subject =
as known by the context in which the event will be *received*, not in =
which it was *issued*. Sometimes those are the same, more often (as =
we're seeing) we can't guarantee that. We should not depend on that and =
we should not treat the exceptional case as the usual, no matter what =
syntax another group has come up with.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></p><p =
class=3D"">So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be =
optional, and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should =
not places further constraints on that. Events themselves should be =
self-contained. I regret that we didn't make the registration object in =
RFC7591 more self-contained, as that's caused implementation and =
extension issues. I think events should always have an internal =
subject/issuer pair, in the context of where the event is being =
consumed. We need to define what iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside =
the event object in this document, so that different events don't =
reinvent the same thing over and over. If a profile wants to leave that =
out because they don't need an identifier for the payload, then they can =
leave it out. If they want to leave it out because they want to assume =
there will "always" be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a =
problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have =
its own identifier which can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a =
global subject namespace or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on =
this list, is ludicrous and will never fly as it goes against how JWT =
namespacing for people and objects has always worked. We should have a =
clear semantic data structure that can be extended and used by all of =
the use cases that we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially =
based on one event, is going to just lead to things being broken and =
back-patched later on. But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub =
inside the event? They can still do that, but I think that's pretty =
daft.<br class=3D""></p><p class=3D""><br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"">In =
summary:</p><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">iss: issuer of the =
event</li><li class=3D"">sub: subject of the event as known by the =
issuer of the event</li><li class=3D"">event.sub: subject of the event =
as known by the recipient of the event<br class=3D""></li><li =
class=3D"">event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by =
the recipient of the event</li><li class=3D"">event.aud: recipient of =
the event</li></ul><p class=3D""><br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"">&nbsp;--=
 Justin<br class=3D""></p><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125moz-cite-prefix">On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, =
Mike Jones wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most support is =
keeping things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications =
to define which claims they use and how they use them.</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use the =
language below.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=93 Mike</p><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border: none; padding: 0in;"><b =
class=3D"">From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Phil =
Hunt</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, =
2017 6:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Richard =
Backman, Annabelle</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Marius =
Scurtescu</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">John =
Bradley</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Henk Birkholz</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Justin =
Richer</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Yaron =
Sheffer</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Mike Jones</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">ID Events =
Mailing List</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">So I understand =
what is being proposed is:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">If the event type uses =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and the issuer of the =
subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims required to uniquely =
identify the subject MUST be contained in the event =
payload.</font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in =
a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"</div><div class=3D"">A =
SCIM resource URI of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/<wbr =
class=3D"">users/<wbr class=3D"">ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr =
class=3D"">c4</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>might =
be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://scim.example.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/users/<wbr class=3D"">ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr =
class=3D"">c4</a>=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub =
claim and depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event =
issuer AND the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events =
on behalf of the OP.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:=
 separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D5nEWLHNlT6T=
5AGTIYqLOHQWDsyMU6aBF12pECG2xhHM&amp;s=3DUhoAQmpJ0QMVgVUkW1TR6-lhKLkJfFa_8=
1Mk-_nllOc&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun =
21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125WordSection1" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Fair point. If we do not =
intend to support multiple profiles within a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m =
less concerned about leaving sub semantics up to the profiles.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Identity Services<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wed=
nesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ri=
chard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ph=
il Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;, =
Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re:=
 [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Example for multiple events within same =
profile: IdP account is disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead =
to two events:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">1. =
"account-disabled"<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">2. =
"sessions-revoked"<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Marius<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT =
be used to express multiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not =
used to express events from different profiles that correspond to the =
same logical event (e.g. an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a =
hypothetical RISC logout event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case =
that leaves for multiple events in one SET.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D"">Identity Services<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil Hunt =
(IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wed=
nesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Joh=
n Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ri=
chard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;, =
Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re:=
 [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the =
current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc =
define its own duplicate definitions and meanings.&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">That leads me to believe we will have =
multi-type events in practice.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Session cancellation can occur for many =
reasons. One of the differentiators we had tried to make was an =
assumption that user initiated events would be part of connect. Risk =
would cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like password =
reset.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">There are also signout events at rp's to let =
the OP know. These are not commands but notification that a resource =
session is cancelled. IOW single sign out not expected.&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same =
family that agree on top level claims.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Otherwise there can =
be no top level claims and we are really defining a alternative format =
to JWT in some ways.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun =
21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree with John =
that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and =
should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is probably not the =
right setting to discuss the former.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My=
 concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting =
semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B =
says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t =
provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then they =
cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap seems =
like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling =
SET.</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;, Annabelle Richard &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">In the envelope typ is a =
media/mime type.&nbsp; Registering application/idt+jwt if we register =
jwt as a structured name sufix. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Using the cty is also possible. &nbsp; I need to think about =
what is better but we can agree on a convention.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS =
is a JWT.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions =
and confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start =
using the typ parameter based on the existing spec.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top =
level is a good idea. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and =
id_tokens.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">If sub is not =
allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the =
subject is scoped to the iss of the token.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where =
the sub is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but =
should not be required for all event types.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from =
the sub issue.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">Sorry I am at =
CIS so trying to catch up on lists.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">John B.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 17, =
2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">So to =
summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Everybody =
agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for "sub" and =
"iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Almost =
everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) that =
should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Did I miss =
anything?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we =
need to also use it in the SET document before it is published.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">+1 to this as well.<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">+1 to what =
Annabelle said.<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to =
send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in =
this case.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Marius<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">+1<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312App=
leMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312App=
leMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mike,</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><p =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The caller of the Token Endpoint is the =
only party that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an =
ID Token. Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no =
way to verify its provenance.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Any future ID Token distribution method =
needs to solve this problem again.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">No other profile of JWT can ever use =
the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312ms=
olistparagraph"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is only a solution for ID Tokens. =
Every other JWT profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent =
its own solution to the problem.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We=
 know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both =
things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general =
solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT =
parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature =
optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in =
this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making =
things that can and should be simple complex, without data showing =
there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to =
problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even =
have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s =
impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr =
class=3D"">archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr =
class=3D"">msg00428.html</span></a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing =
that this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real =
JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data =
to inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, =
such as prohibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, =
or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple things =
unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; Yes, then the result is then different than =
a normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would =
have to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more =
unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just =
create their own data structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key to =
adoption.&nbsp; Standards are only useful if they are actually =
used.</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr =
class=3D"">org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you =
mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To=
 your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key =
Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Identity =
Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Tue, Jun =
13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr =
class=3D"">de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">And a 2nd =
question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What semantics would "usage" =
provide that that are not covered via "intend", "audience", and =
"scope"?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">"aud" (audience) specifies =
the target client, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize =
resource access or SET to communicate a security event?)<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">"scope" is not used by SET.<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or =
intent)?<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thanks =
for putting this together!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the =
assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7=
We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutually =
exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing =
this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach =
to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for =
JWTs from a current spec.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is =
unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent =
keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the =
spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is =
easier than managing N different keys.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header parameter.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Identity Services<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">*From: *Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D"">*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: =
*Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam =
Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;, ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. =
Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D""><wbr =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks for the pointer =
Dick, very good timing :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The issue is =
described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mitigation is =
in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Different Kinds =
of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>required =
claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>JWTs." and "Use different =
issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I still think =
that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>safety.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 =
PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron, Mike and I just =
published an BCP ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr class=3D"">1690</span></a><br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 =
PM Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I was initially a fan of =
keeping SETS to be very similar to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>id =
tokens but I now think this is a better plan.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 =
PM matake, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>+1 especially for "type"<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2017-06-09=
 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">p<wbr =
class=3D"">hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>+1<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<wbr =
class=3D"">&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>distinguish SETs from Id =
Tokens and Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>such a way that naive =
implementations will not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>confuse one for the other =
and open up security<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>vulnerabilities.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There is also =
another important requirement: the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>SET issuer in some cases =
must be different from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"sub" issuer. This is the =
case of an RP sending SETs<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>to an IdP.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; With these =
requirements in mind I propose the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>following:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>level<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>be =
different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>across events in the same =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>level (this solves the =
disambiguation), please note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"should" and not "must"<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also =
allows different profiles that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>define event types to =
define additional claims<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>related to sub (like email =
or phone_number) and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>since all these claims will =
be at the event level<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>there will be no collisions =
or ambiguity.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>define a composite "aud" =
claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the requirement for a =
distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>having the same claim name =
having different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in different token types =
could lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>claim =
for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>practical in the short =
term, and it also is not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>solving the distinct issuer =
requirement, but I think<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>this is something the JWT =
group should seriously<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>consider.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Marius<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">I<wbr =
class=3D"">d-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><a =
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class=3D"">3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_<wbr =
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 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
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class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
References: <CAGdjJpK2wD+rWp4XdykjrL8qpTif=CpjnPTtov6sa9TNDXDrqQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJpJcv_5E395uev30FF_UCtYU0DTdkxK1Rrhx3Q+SjYygRg@mail.gmail.com> <0A8214E9-5FF7-4898-9D3C-F518A9A31DC2@amazon.com> <CY4PR21MB0504FCB283E5305B0316C279F5C30@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <D3FA82F3-E63E-4C0B-88C4-18477FDA730A@amazon.com> <3202DFD2-5156-41C4-AC05-94F9BDCDADB1@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJDZ2nZO6RjVqJfJVJF2eifHCoR--1tRwCwSAZqtns3_g@mail.gmail.com> <1629046b-2447-aef6-8f2e-2333fb1f3ee3@gmail.com> <6A2C250A-D2E3-4868-950F-DFAFBDF3C394@ve7jtb.com> <B93EF6E6-4D6F-4A18-A6EE-9EF28FC21C1B@amazon.com> <1915CB57-66AE-4C8B-AD1E-24123E9BE3FA@ve7jtb.com> <80510456-2187-401D-8BF9-8E3118435B3C@oracle.com> <370B5025-BD04-4B05-9FFD-D8850230BBBF@amazon.com> <CAGdjJpJV+4vat-systRvLLNnNDhVDcxxY58kdxVYyva+LmKuOg@mail.gmail.com> <E967B191-C08B-4C96-927E-8A22E0673AF9@amazon.com> <00C1EE28-F966-4C29-A5D1-DD54C103FF0D@oracle.com> <CY4PR21MB0504EB3DF824A845C282B4DDF5DA0@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <6d9e7ad9-8096-09e9-1759-2ae0f9481a83@mit.edu> <CAGdjJpJNHYH+QYe9-o9s3D70DkSbNjOCSG0R7=Ypm-rHyM_+JQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB05045836B0610DDAD95B0039F5DF0@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 26, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Justin,
> =20
> The rules you=E2=80=99re proposing may be fine for a SET profile for a =
particular kind of application.  I encourage you to join the RISC =
working group and work on them there.  But they would limit the use =
cases that SETs could be used for, which would be unfortunate and =
unnecessary.
> =20
> An analogy with JWT is illustrative.  JWT is intentionally =
general-purpose, leaving it up to application profiles what claims to =
use and what their semantics are.  This enables JWTs to be used for ID =
Tokens =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_specs_op=
enid-2Dconnect-2Dcore-2D1-5F0.html-23IDToken&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&m=3DajIy8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&s=3DJg-KrA7IAdxpWgSftv=
WiHha8MWrn0_dNNpT0if4N8TM&e=3D> and also for completely unrelated uses, =
such as SIP =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc8055&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DajIy8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWn=
bTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&s=3DegsNQiqQHe0R8Lnw8i5vbvQ8flXk4pOLliLiOoeEHEE&e=3D> =
and Caller ID =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dstir-2Dpassport-2D11&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D=
ajIy8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&s=3DAshRSt1zrJ8y99eqNshYuE73oD=
BO8PA7AT7SjxDnkdk&e=3D>.  There is no expectation of interoperability =
between these different JWT applications.  Indeed =E2=80=93 both the =
syntax *and the semantics*, such has how to determine what keys are =
valid, are different.  It=E2=80=99s this flexibility that makes JWTs =
general-purpose.
> =20
> Likewise, SET as currently specified is similarly general-purpose.  =
Application profiles define what SET claims to use and their semantics.  =
There is no expectation of interoperability between different SET =
profiles, nor should there be, as their applications are different.  =
Trying to make SETs require choices appropriate to a particular profile =
will necessarily make them a poor or impossible fit for others.  This =
would be a very bad thing.

-1 is not a strong enough expression here.

The whole point of this WG is to have a comment message and transfer =
format.  Each profile can define events of different meaning but to have =
JWT processing that is dramatically different and complex would be a =
negative outcome that kills the value of this working group.

If people find the need to extend messaging protocols (e.g. to introduce =
things like complex error signalling). They are not doing events right.

If this is truly the WG decision, we are back to RISC specific, SCIM =
specific, Session specific, OAuth specific event protocols and formats.  =
Yet many participants will all have these systems interconnected to our =
security systems which are all evolving over time.  Having 5 or 6 =
connectors coupled with inconsistent implementation leads us no-way. It =
means we will not be communicating with each other to help our customers =
unless we pay the high costs of custom connectors and cross-license each =
silo=E2=80=99s proprietary API.

The whole point of a standard is to make this possible, not to create a =
barrier to security.

Lack of common inter-op between systems and silos is a HUGE loss.

This is also the lesson learned from TAXII.  They did not have a strong =
standard and it failed because there is no implementable common =
platform.

> =20
> Ironically, =E2=80=9Clocking down=E2=80=9D SET to require choices =
motivated by a particular profile wouldn=E2=80=99t help that profile at =
all, as it would work the same whether SET was =E2=80=9Clocked down=E2=80=9D=
 or not.  But it would unnecessarily preclude use of SETs in other =
contexts that they are currently a great fit for.
> =20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 9:43 AM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com>; John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it to an =
IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or maybe I =
misunderstand.
> =20
> We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. A top =
level "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the opaque =
"sub" as issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique only when =
combined with the IdP "iss".
> =20
> Not sure why event.aud would be necessary?
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most support". =
Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the =
event payload only.
>=20
> The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer of =
the SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is known =
by at the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn't true, =
and so far one exception case where it is, sometimes. We should not be =
writing this for the exception.
>=20
> But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the body =
of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of =
the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global namespaces, no =
restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an opaque (to the SET =
standard) value in the domain of the issuer of the SET.=20
>=20
> Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event =
itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in =
which the event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. =
Sometimes those are the same, more often (as we're seeing) we can't =
guarantee that. We should not depend on that and we should not treat the =
exceptional case as the usual, no matter what syntax another group has =
come up with.
>=20
> So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be optional, =
and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should not places =
further constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-contained. =
I regret that we didn't make the registration object in RFC7591 more =
self-contained, as that's caused implementation and extension issues. I =
think events should always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the =
context of where the event is being consumed. We need to define what =
iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside the event object in this =
document, so that different events don't reinvent the same thing over =
and over. If a profile wants to leave that out because they don't need =
an identifier for the payload, then they can leave it out. If they want =
to leave it out because they want to assume there will "always" be an =
iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a problem with that. The =
issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have its own identifier which =
can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a global subject namespace =
or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludicrous =
and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people and =
objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic data =
structure that can be extended and used by all of the use cases that =
we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event, =
is going to just lead to things being broken and back-patched later on. =
But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside the event? They =
can still do that, but I think that's pretty daft.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> In summary:
>=20
> iss: issuer of the event
> sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event
> event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the event
> event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the =
recipient of the event
> event.aud: recipient of the event
> =20
>=20
>  -- Justin
>=20
> =20
> On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as =
they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which =
claims they use and how they use them.
> =20
> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
> =20
> =E2=80=93 Mike
> From: Phil Hunt <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
> To: Richard Backman, Annabelle <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; =
Mike Jones <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> So I understand what is being proposed is:
> =20
> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, =
and the issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, =
then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the =
subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims =
required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event =
payload.
> =20
> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
> A SCIM resource URI of =
https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 =
<https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4> might =
be identified in the event payload as: =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a24=
2bd3859c82c4 =
<https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4>=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and =
depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND =
the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf =
of the OP.
> =20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DajIy8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC=
3rsUdOAzQ&s=3DwRI9Y9NKt4D_bL4YdOM07k4s-fiDla80uUkW2fyAUms&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a =
single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics =
up to the profiles.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
> Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is =
disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
> 1. "account-disabled"
> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express =
multiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events =
from different profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. =
an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout =
event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple =
events in one SET.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
> To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current =
backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its =
own duplicate definitions and meanings.=20
> =20
> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
> =20
> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the =
differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user =
initiated events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations =
that drive off of risk calculations like password reset.=20
> =20
> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are =
not commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW =
single sign out not expected.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the =
same family that agree on top level claims.
> =20
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining =
a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub =
problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is =
probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
> =20
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate =
conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, =
Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=
=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then =
they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap =
seems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling =
SET.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius =
Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, =
Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, =
Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
> =20
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better =
but we can agree on a convention.
> =20
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
> =20
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and =
confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using =
the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
> =20
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.
> =20
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is =
a good idea. =20
> =20
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
> =20
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for =
things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
> =20
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub =
is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should =
not be required for all event types.
> =20
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub =
issue.
> =20
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
> =20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for =
"sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) =
that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
> Did I miss anything?
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in =
the SET document before it is published.
> Thanks,
>     Yaron
> =20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
> +1 to this as well.=20
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> =20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> =20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
> =20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> +1
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> Mike,
> =20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side =
effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve =
this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile =
that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the =
problem.
>=20
> =20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are =
both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  =
I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
> =20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that =
there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s =
already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.  If people have data showing that =
this is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
> =20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, =
would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then =
the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this =
is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
> =20
>                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 =
Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?
> =20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended =
usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)
> =20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
> =20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, =
"matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be =
in 3.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> =
wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar =
to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens =
in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: =
the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from =
the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending =
SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles =
that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I =
think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                      >
>                     =
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xWI&e=3D>
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 =
650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>         --=20
>         Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0F=
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>         learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/ =
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>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
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class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
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letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
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class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 26, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Justin,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The rules =
you=E2=80=99re proposing may be fine for a SET profile for a particular =
kind of application.&nbsp; I encourage you to join the RISC working =
group and work on them there.&nbsp; But they would limit the use cases =
that SETs could be used for, which would be unfortunate and =
unnecessary.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">An analogy =
with JWT is illustrative.&nbsp; JWT is intentionally general-purpose, =
leaving it up to application profiles what claims to use and what their =
semantics are.&nbsp; This enables JWTs to be used for<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__openid.net_s=
pecs_openid-2Dconnect-2Dcore-2D1-5F0.html-23IDToken&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJ=
xPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DajIy8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&=
amp;s=3DJg-KrA7IAdxpWgSftvWiHha8MWrn0_dNNpT0if4N8TM&amp;e=3D" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ID =
Tokens</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and also =
for completely unrelated uses, such as<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc8055&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkK=
Y057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DajIy=
8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&amp;s=3DegsNQiqQHe0R8Lnw8i5vbvQ8fl=
Xk4pOLliLiOoeEHEE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">SIP</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dstir-2Dpassport-2D11&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DajIy8Fp7TzNHe30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&amp;s=3D=
AshRSt1zrJ8y99eqNshYuE73oDBO8PA7AT7SjxDnkdk&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Caller ID</a>.&nbsp; =
There is no expectation of interoperability between these different JWT =
applications.&nbsp; Indeed =E2=80=93 both the syntax *<b class=3D"">and =
the semantics</b>*, such has how to determine what keys are valid, are =
different.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s this flexibility that makes JWTs =
general-purpose.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Likewise, =
SET as currently specified is similarly general-purpose.&nbsp; =
Application profiles define what SET claims to use and their =
semantics.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">There is no expectation of interoperability between different =
SET profiles, nor should there be</b>, as their applications are =
different.&nbsp; Trying to make SETs require choices appropriate to a =
particular profile will necessarily make them a poor or impossible fit =
for others.&nbsp; This would be a very bad =
thing.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>-1 =
is not a strong enough expression here.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The whole point of this WG is to have a comment =
message and transfer format. &nbsp;Each profile can define events of =
different meaning but to have JWT processing that is dramatically =
different and complex would be a negative outcome that kills the value =
of this working group.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If people =
find the need to extend messaging protocols (e.g. to introduce things =
like complex error signalling). They are not doing events =
right.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If this is truly the WG =
decision, we are back to RISC specific, SCIM specific, Session specific, =
OAuth specific event protocols and formats. &nbsp;Yet many participants =
will all have these systems interconnected to our security systems which =
are all evolving over time. &nbsp;Having 5 or 6 connectors coupled with =
inconsistent implementation leads us no-way. It means we will not be =
communicating with each other to help our customers unless we pay the =
high costs of custom connectors and cross-license each silo=E2=80=99s =
proprietary API.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The whole point of =
a standard is to make this possible, not to create a barrier to =
security.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Lack of common inter-op =
between systems and silos is a HUGE loss.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This is also the lesson learned from TAXII. =
&nbsp;They did not have a strong standard and it failed because there is =
no implementable common platform.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Ironically, =
=E2=80=9Clocking down=E2=80=9D SET to require choices motivated by a =
particular profile wouldn=E2=80=99t help that profile at all, as it =
would work the same whether SET was =E2=80=9Clocked down=E2=80=9D or =
not.&nbsp; But it would unnecessarily preclude use of SETs in other =
contexts that they are currently a great fit for.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, June 26, 2017 9:43 =
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;; =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for =
Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it =
to an IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or =
maybe I misunderstand.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. =
A top level "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the =
opaque "sub" as issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique =
only when combined with the IdP "iss".<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Not sure why event.aud would be =
necessary?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"">Mike, this is not at all what I =
see for having the "most support". Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for =
having "sub" defined clearly in the event payload only.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">The "sub" of the main body is the =
subject as known by the issuer of the SET itself. This might be the same =
subject that the subject is known by at the target of the SET. There are =
many cases where this isn't true, and so far one exception case where it =
is, sometimes. We should not be writing this for the exception.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">But I think there's a pretty clear =
path forward. The "sub" in the body of a SET, if it is included, is =
*ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of the SET. Always, full stop, no =
exceptions. No global namespaces, no restrictions on content, no formats =
-- it's an opaque (to the SET standard) value in the domain of the =
issuer of the SET.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">Event payloads, defined in profiles, =
describe a subject of the event itself. Importantly, this is the subject =
as known by the context in which the event will be *received*, not in =
which it was *issued*. Sometimes those are the same, more often (as =
we're seeing) we can't guarantee that. We should not depend on that and =
we should not treat the exceptional case as the usual, no matter what =
syntax another group has come up with.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"">So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be =
optional, and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should =
not places further constraints on that. Events themselves should be =
self-contained. I regret that we didn't make the registration object in =
RFC7591 more self-contained, as that's caused implementation and =
extension issues. I think events should always have an internal =
subject/issuer pair, in the context of where the event is being =
consumed. We need to define what iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside =
the event object in this document, so that different events don't =
reinvent the same thing over and over. If a profile wants to leave that =
out because they don't need an identifier for the payload, then they can =
leave it out. If they want to leave it out because they want to assume =
there will "always" be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a =
problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have =
its own identifier which can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a =
global subject namespace or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on =
this list, is ludicrous and will never fly as it goes against how JWT =
namespacing for people and objects has always worked. We should have a =
clear semantic data structure that can be extended and used by all of =
the use cases that we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially =
based on one event, is going to just lead to things being broken and =
back-patched later on. But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub =
inside the event? They can still do that, but I think that's pretty =
daft.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"">In summary:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">iss: issuer of the =
event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the =
event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient =
of the event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">event.iss: context for the subject of the event as =
known by the recipient of the event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">event.aud: recipient of the event<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><p class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping =
things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define =
which claims they use and how they use them.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It would =
be fine for some profiles to use the language below.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93 =
Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, =
2017 6:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Richard Backman, =
Annabelle</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Marius =
Scurtescu</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">John Bradley</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Henk =
Birkholz</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Justin Richer</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Yaron Sheffer</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Mike =
Jones</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ID Events Mailing =
List</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So I understand what is being proposed =
is:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to =
identify its subject, and the issuer of the subject is identical to the =
issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top =
level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) =
and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be =
contained in the event payload.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 =
might be represented in a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in =
the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">A SCIM resource URI of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=
</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>might be =
identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=
</a>=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub =
claim and depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event =
issuer AND the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events =
on behalf of the OP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; =
Standards<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DajIy8Fp7TzN=
He30cIwl2AR6GEWnbTZ7BrC3rsUdOAzQ&amp;s=3DwRI9Y9NKt4D_bL4YdOM07k4s-fiDla80u=
UkW2fyAUms&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 =
PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles =
within a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub =
semantics up to the profiles.<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wedn=
esday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ric=
hard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Phi=
l Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,=
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, =
Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Example for multiple events within same =
profile: IdP account is disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead =
to two events:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">1. "account-disabled"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">2. "sessions-revoked"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">The spec says =
that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple logical =
events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from different =
profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC =
backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), =
then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events =
in one SET.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard =
Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil =
Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wedn=
esday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>John=
 Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ric=
hard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;, Justin Richer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</span></a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Separate or combined may be evolving. =
Mike wants to keep the current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. =
He suggested risc define its own duplicate definitions and =
meanings.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That leads me to believe we will have =
multi-type events in practice.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Session cancellation can occur for =
many reasons. One of the differentiators we had tried to make was an =
assumption that user initiated events would be part of connect. Risk =
would cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like password =
reset.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are also signout events at rp's =
to let the OP know. These are not commands but notification that a =
resource session is cancelled. IOW single sign out not =
expected.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, =
John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I thought we decided that we are only =
allowing set messages form the same family that agree on top level =
claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Otherwise there can be no top level claims =
and we are really defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">I agree with John that the JWT type =
confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and should be discussed =
separately. The secevents WG is probably not the right setting to =
discuss the former.<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">My =
concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting =
semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B =
says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t =
provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then they =
cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap seems =
like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">John =
Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</span></a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;, Annabelle =
Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the envelope typ is a media/mime =
type.&nbsp; Registering application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a =
structured name sufix. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Using the cty is also possible. =
&nbsp; I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a =
convention.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Not everything is going =
to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If we are going to define processing =
rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for different =
purposes, we should just start using the typ parameter based on the =
existing spec.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In general content sniffing if there =
is more than one option eventually gets you into trouble.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I am not convinced that forcing there =
to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is not the way we should =
differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If sub is not allowed at the top level =
people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject is scoped to the =
iss of the token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the =
event for cases where the sub is scoped differently from the issuer of =
the token is fine, but should not be required for all event types.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think we should solve the confusion =
issue separately from the sub issue.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up =
on lists.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 =
PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So to summarize what I'm =
seeing on this thread:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Everybody agrees with Marius's =
short-term solution, specific rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be =
defined in the SET spec.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" =
claim ("type" is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the =
JWT BCP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Did I miss anything?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we =
need to also use it in the SET document before it is published.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to this as well.<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 =
PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle =
said.<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other =
requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the =
top level is broken in this case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312App=
leMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312App=
leMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 =
PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">Mike,<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">1.<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party =
that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. =
Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to =
verify its provenance.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">2.<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to =
solve this problem again.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">3.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D=
 claim.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">4.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other =
JWT profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own =
solution to the problem.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">We =
know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both =
things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general =
solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT =
parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature =
optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in =
this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making =
things that can and should be simple complex, without data showing =
there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to =
problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even =
have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s =
impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428=
.html</span></a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that this is =
possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting =
the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type =
claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; =
Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a =
consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to =
use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own data =
structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; =
Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
-- Mike</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you =
mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">To =
your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key =
Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">And a 2nd question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What =
semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend", =
"audience", and "scope"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"aud" (audience) specifies the target =
client, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource =
access or SET to communicate a security event?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don't know what do you mean by =
"intend" (or intent)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks for putting this together!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every =
type of JWT will have a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or =
header parameters, and enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an =
unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that JWTs from some =
future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers =
to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=
=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore =
this because managing one key is easier than managing N different =
keys.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =
=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Identity Services<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">*From: *Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D"">*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: =
*Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam =
Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;, ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. =
Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, =
very good timing :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The =
issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive =
Validation Rules for<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of =
JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different =
kinds of JWTs.".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I still =
think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I =
just published an BCP ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</span></a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM =
Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I =
was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now =
think this is a better plan.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 =
especially for "type"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at =
6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There were a couple =
of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and =
Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a way that naive implementations will =
not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confuse one for the other and open up security<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; to an IdP.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; following:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and =
"iss" to be defined at the event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level =
can<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and =
"sub" at event level can be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across events in the =
same SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles =
that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define event types to define additional claims<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; related to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; since all these claims will be at the event level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Another proposal =
(which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define a composite "aud" =
claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the requirement for a =
distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having the same claim =
name having different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in different token types could =
lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; practical in the short term, and it also is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; this is something the JWT group should seriously<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; consider.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9=
NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&amp;s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6=
Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhxWI&amp;e=3D</span></a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZY=
VITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
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--<span =
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&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
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background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
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purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
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class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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IGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssK=
FZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMSWWs&amp;e=3D</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></block=
quote></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
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purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a></span=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blo=
ckquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Jun 26 10:14:16 2017
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 10:13:46 -0700
Message-ID: <CAGdjJp+s4igQuFjSy1t=tKDfpMmrVcL0RgLFna=qqtbte+A_Fg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/kUR3TfB1A4lD1Mn2aHmHfIbs1vU>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Limit use cases, in what ways?

The format is a bit more complex, yes, but that is not limiting anything.
By defining a simpler base SET and then requiring the most important
profiles to make it more complex anyhow is not helping at all IMO. As Phil
mentioned, I think consistency is more important.

But again, if use cases are indeed limited then please clarify how.

Marius


On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Justin,
>
>
>
> The rules you=E2=80=99re proposing may be fine for a SET profile for a pa=
rticular
> kind of application.  I encourage you to join the RISC working group and
> work on them there.  But they would limit the use cases that SETs could b=
e
> used for, which would be unfortunate and unnecessary.
>
>
>
> An analogy with JWT is illustrative.  JWT is intentionally
> general-purpose, leaving it up to application profiles what claims to use
> and what their semantics are.  This enables JWTs to be used for ID Tokens
> <http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#IDToken> and also
> for completely unrelated uses, such as SIP
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8055> and Caller ID
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-11>.  There is no
> expectation of interoperability between these different JWT applications.
> Indeed =E2=80=93 both the syntax **and the semantics**, such has how to d=
etermine
> what keys are valid, are different.  It=E2=80=99s this flexibility that m=
akes JWTs
> general-purpose.
>
>
>
> Likewise, SET as currently specified is similarly general-purpose.
> Application profiles define what SET claims to use and their semantics.  =
*There
> is no expectation of interoperability between different SET profiles, nor
> should there be*, as their applications are different.  Trying to make
> SETs require choices appropriate to a particular profile will necessarily
> make them a poor or impossible fit for others.  This would be a very bad
> thing.
>
>
>
> Ironically, =E2=80=9Clocking down=E2=80=9D SET to require choices motivat=
ed by a
> particular profile wouldn=E2=80=99t help that profile at all, as it would=
 work the
> same whether SET was =E2=80=9Clocked down=E2=80=9D or not.  But it would =
unnecessarily
> preclude use of SETs in other contexts that they are currently a great fi=
t
> for.
>
>
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 9:43 AM
> *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Phil Hunt <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>;
> John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>;
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it to an IdP, a
> top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or maybe I
> misunderstand.
>
>
>
> We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. A top level
> "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the opaque "sub" as
> issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique only when combined
> with the IdP "iss".
>
>
>
> Not sure why event.aud would be necessary?
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most support". Instea=
d
> I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the event
> payload only.
>
> The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer of the
> SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is known by a=
t
> the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn't true, and so
> far one exception case where it is, sometimes. We should not be writing
> this for the exception.
>
> But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the body of
> a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of the
> SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global namespaces, no
> restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an opaque (to the SET standar=
d)
> value in the domain of the issuer of the SET.
>
> Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event
> itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in which
> the event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. Sometimes tho=
se
> are the same, more often (as we're seeing) we can't guarantee that. We
> should not depend on that and we should not treat the exceptional case as
> the usual, no matter what syntax another group has come up with.
>
> So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be optional, an=
d
> ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should not places furth=
er
> constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-contained. I regret
> that we didn't make the registration object in RFC7591 more self-containe=
d,
> as that's caused implementation and extension issues. I think events shou=
ld
> always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the context of where the
> event is being consumed. We need to define what iss/sub mean (in a grand
> sense) inside the event object in this document, so that different events
> don't reinvent the same thing over and over. If a profile wants to leave
> that out because they don't need an identifier for the payload, then they
> can leave it out. If they want to leave it out because they want to assum=
e
> there will "always" be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a
> problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have its
> own identifier which can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a global
> subject namespace or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list=
,
> is ludicrous and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing fo=
r
> people and objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic dat=
a
> structure that can be extended and used by all of the use cases that we'v=
e
> adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event, is goin=
g
> to just lead to things being broken and back-patched later on. But if one
> spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside the event? They can still do
> that, but I think that's pretty daft.
>
>
>
> In summary:
>
>    - iss: issuer of the event
>    - sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event
>    - event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the
>    event
>    - event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the
>    recipient of the event
>    - event.aud: recipient of the event
>
>
>
>  -- Justin
>
>
>
> On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as the=
y
> are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which claims th=
ey
> use and how they use them.
>
>
>
> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=93 Mike
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
> *To: *Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley
> <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jus=
tin
> Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Mike
> Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List
> <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> So I understand what is being proposed is:
>
>
>
> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and=
 the issuer of
> the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D may be
> used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D) and
> any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be
> contained in the event payload.
>
>
>
> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a
> =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =E2=80=9C=
ipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
>
> A SCIM resource URI of https://scim.example.com/users/
> ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 might be identified in the event payload
> as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45c=
e9a242bd3859c82c4
> =E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and depend=
s
> on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND the subj=
ect. This means
> that no party may issue logout events on behalf of the OP.
>
>
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a
> single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics u=
p to the
> profiles.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc: *"Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, John Bradley <
> ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,
> Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is disabled
> (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
>
> 1. "account-disabled"
>
> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multipl=
e
> logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from diff=
erent
> profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
> backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), the=
n
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one=
 SET.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
> *To: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,
> Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
> id-event@ietf.org>
>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current
> backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its own
> duplicate definitions and meanings.
>
>
>
> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
>
>
>
> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the
> differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user initiate=
d
> events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive o=
ff
> of risk calculations like password reset.
>
>
>
> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are not
> commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW singl=
e
> sign out not expected.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the same
> family that agree on top level claims.
>
>
>
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining a
> alternative format to JWT in some ways.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub
> problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is
> probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
>
>
>
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflictin=
g
> semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B say=
s it=E2=80=99s an
> email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate way =
to declare
> subject of their events, then they cannot be present within the same toke=
n.
> This incompatibility trap seems like something that could be easily misse=
d
> by groups profiling SET.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> *To: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Marius Scurtescu <
> mscurtescu@google.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Phil
> Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering application/idt+jw=
t
> if we register jwt as a structured name sufix.
>
>
>
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better bu=
t
> we can agree on a convention.
>
>
>
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
>
>
>
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and
> confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using t=
he
> typ parameter based on the existing spec.
>
>
>
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option eventually
> gets you into trouble.
>
>
>
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a
> good idea.
>
>
>
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
>
>
>
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for
> things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
>
>
>
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub is
> scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should not b=
e
> required for all event types.
>
>
>
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue=
.
>
>
>
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
>
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for
> "sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
>
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken)
> that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in the
> SET document before it is published.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> +1 to this as well.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 to what Annabelle said.
>
>
>
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send events
> to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this case.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side
> effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve thi=
s
> issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
>
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be
> certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party that
> the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its provenance=
.
>
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this
> problem again.
>
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D claim.
>
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile
> that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the
> problem.
>
>
>
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are bot=
h
> things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure
> against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
> actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A
> =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for=
 any JWT profile,
> whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique logic.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=
=80=99d characterize the proposals
> in this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 makin=
g things that can and
> should be simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need t=
o do so.
>
>
>
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that
> there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s alr=
eady been
> established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be confused for an =
ID Token =E2=80=93
> see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn9=
0SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>.
> If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of
> Access Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so
> that we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on ou=
r
> part.
>
>
>
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use of =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the
> normal way, or requiring a type claim, would make previously simple thing=
s
> unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then the result is then different than a
> normal JWT but a consequence of this is that custom parsing code would ha=
ve
> to be used, rather than a standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make
> it to use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own
> data structures.  Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards ar=
e
> only useful if they are actually used.
>
>
>
>                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Richard Backman, Annabelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> *To:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=
=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key
> Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended purpo=
se
> of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining whether to
> accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> *To: *Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz <
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
> And a 2nd question.
>
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via
> "intend", "audience", and "scope"?
>
>
>
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage
> (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a securi=
ty
> event?)
>
>
>
> "scope" is not used by SET.
>
>
>
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Henk
>
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
>
> Thanks for putting this together!
>
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutua=
lly exclusive
> set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing this requires=
 a
> =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that J=
WTs from some
> future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9C=
different keys
> for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec o=
r not,
> implementers will ignore this because managing one key is easier than
> managing N different keys.
>
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.
>
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header p=
arameter.
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>, "matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp>, ID
> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <
> phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and
> distinct SET issuer
>
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in
> 3.9.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
> <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>
>
>     Marius
>
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info=
_-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XC=
sDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp>> wrote:
>
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>
>                     +1
>
>                     Phil
>
>
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com
>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct  SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>                      >
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>             --
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com> |+1 650-214-2410
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <%28650%29%20214-2410>>
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57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2=
Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5S=
Q&e=3D>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Limit use cases, in what ways?<div><br></div><div>The form=
at is a bit more complex, yes, but that is not limiting anything. By defini=
ng a simpler base SET and then requiring the most important profiles to mak=
e it more complex anyhow is not helping at all IMO. As Phil mentioned, I th=
ink consistency is more important.</div><div><br></div><div>But again, if u=
se cases are indeed limited then please clarify how.<br><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmai=
l=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
 Jun 26, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8401716528131129878WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Justin,<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">The rules you=E2=80=99=
re proposing may be fine for a SET profile for a particular kind of applica=
tion.=C2=A0 I encourage you to join the RISC working group and work on them=
 there.=C2=A0 But they would limit the use cases that
 SETs could be used for, which would be unfortunate and unnecessary.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">An analogy with JWT is=
 illustrative.=C2=A0 JWT is intentionally general-purpose, leaving it up to=
 application profiles what claims to use and what their semantics are.=C2=
=A0 This enables JWTs to be used for
<a href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#IDToken" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ID Tokens</a> and also for completely unre=
lated uses, such as
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8055" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">SIP</a> and <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-=
passport-11" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
Caller ID</a>.=C2=A0 There is no expectation of interoperability between th=
ese different JWT applications.=C2=A0 Indeed =E2=80=93 both the syntax *<b>=
and the semantics</b>*, such has how to determine what keys are valid, are =
different.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s this flexibility that makes JWTs
 general-purpose.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Likewise, SET as curre=
ntly specified is similarly general-purpose.=C2=A0 Application profiles def=
ine what SET claims to use and their semantics.=C2=A0
<b>There is no expectation of interoperability between different SET profil=
es, nor should there be</b>, as their applications are different.=C2=A0 Try=
ing to make SETs require choices appropriate to a particular profile will n=
ecessarily make them a poor or impossible
 fit for others.=C2=A0 This would be a very bad thing.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Ironically, =E2=80=9Cl=
ocking down=E2=80=9D SET to require choices motivated by a particular profi=
le wouldn=E2=80=99t help that profile at all, as it would work the same whe=
ther SET was =E2=80=9Clocked down=E2=80=9D or not.=C2=A0 But it would unnec=
essarily
 preclude use of SETs in other contexts that they are currently a great fit=
 for.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mik=
e<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marius Scurtescu [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@go=
ogle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 26, 2017 9:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Phil =
Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt;; John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;; Henk Birkho=
lz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheff=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</p><div><div class=3D"h5=
"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to=
 send it to an IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible.=
 Or maybe I misunderstand.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We agree on &quot;iss&quot; I think, in this case it=
 points to the RP. A top level &quot;sub&quot; though is problematic, The R=
P in many cases has the opaque &quot;sub&quot; as issued by the IdP, but th=
is value is globally unique only when combined with the IdP &quot;iss&quot;=
.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not sure why event.aud would be necessary?<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">jriche=
r@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0p=
t;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p>Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the &quot;most support&qu=
ot;. Instead I&#39;m seeing a lot of call for having &quot;sub&quot; define=
d clearly in the event payload only.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The &quot;sub&quot; of the main body is the subject as known by the issu=
er of the SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is kn=
own by at the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn&#39;t =
true, and so far one exception case where it is,
 sometimes. We should not be writing this for the exception.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p>But I think there&#39;s a pretty clear path forward. The &quot;sub&quot;=
 in the body of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the=
 &quot;iss&quot; of the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global na=
mespaces, no restrictions on content, no formats -- it&#39;s
 an opaque (to the SET standard) value in the domain of the issuer of the S=
ET. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p>Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event its=
elf. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in which the =
event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. Sometimes those are=
 the same, more often (as we&#39;re
 seeing) we can&#39;t guarantee that. We should not depend on that and we s=
hould not treat the exceptional case as the usual, no matter what syntax an=
other group has come up with.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>So here&#39;s the thing. I think the &quot;sub&quot; of an event should =
be optional, and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should n=
ot places further constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-con=
tained. I regret that we didn&#39;t make the registration
 object in RFC7591 more self-contained, as that&#39;s caused implementation=
 and extension issues. I think events should always have an internal subjec=
t/issuer pair, in the context of where the event is being consumed. We need=
 to define what iss/sub mean (in a grand
 sense) inside the event object in this document, so that different events =
don&#39;t reinvent the same thing over and over. If a profile wants to leav=
e that out because they don&#39;t need an identifier for the payload, then =
they can leave it out. If they want to leave
 it out because they want to assume there will &quot;always&quot; be an iss=
/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a problem with that. The issuer of=
 the SET can, and probably does, have its own identifier which can&#39;t be=
 assumed to be universal. Proposing a global subject
 namespace or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludi=
crous and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people =
and objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic data structu=
re that can be extended and used
 by all of the use cases that we&#39;ve adopted. Optimizing at this stage, =
especially based on one event, is going to just lead to things being broken=
 and back-patched later on. But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub =
inside the event? They can still do
 that, but I think that&#39;s pretty daft.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p>In summary:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
iss: issuer of the event<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:0in">
sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event<u></u><u></u>=
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the event<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the recipient o=
f the event<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">
event.aud: recipient of the event<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0-- Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div=
><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal that I believe has the most support is =
keeping things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to d=
efine which claims they use and how they use them.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be fine for some profiles to use the langua=
ge below.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=93 Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">Phil Hunt</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">Richard Backman, Annabelle</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">Marius Scurtescu</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Joh=
n Bradley</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
Henk Birkholz</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">Justin Richer</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>Yaron Sheffer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">
Mike Jones</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">ID Events Mailing List</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and d=
istinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So I understand what is being proposed is:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, and t=
he issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, then =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the subject of =
an
 event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims required to unique=
ly identify the subject MUST be contained in the event payload.</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be repre=
sented in a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload.=
 =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A SCIM resource URI of <a href=3D"https://scim.examp=
le.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">
https://scim.example.com/<wbr>users/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr=
>c4</a> might be identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859=
c82c4" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.<wbr>com/use=
rs/<wbr>ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82<wbr>c4</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level=
 sub claim and depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the even=
t issuer AND the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events =
on behalf of the OP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Oracle Corporation, Iden=
tity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"http://www.in=
dependentid.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.h=
unt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div></div><div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div></div><div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Fair point. If we do not =
intend to support multiple profiles within a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m l=
ess concerned about leaving sub semantics up to the profiles.<span style=3D=
"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Annabelle Richard Bac=
kman<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Identity Services<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richa=
nna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt;,=
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;,
 Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Ma=
iling List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Toke=
n confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Example for multiple =
events within same profile: IdP account is disabled (because of hijacking),=
 this can lead to two events:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">1. &quot;account-disa=
bled&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">2. &quot;sessions-rev=
oked&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Marius<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 =
at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazo=
n.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">rich=
anna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0p=
t;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right=
:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">The spec says that the ev=
ents claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple logical events. If it=E2=
=80=99s also not used to express events from different profiles that corres=
pond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC
 backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), then=
 I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events in one =
SET.<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-s=
erif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Annabelle Richard Backm=
an<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Identity Services<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt"=
>Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</=
span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jt=
b.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">ve7j=
tb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wb=
r>de</span></a>&gt;,
 Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">jricher@mit.edu</span></a>&gt;, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</s=
pan></a>&gt;, Yaron
 Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>=
&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com</span></a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</sp=
an></a>&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Toke=
n confusion and distinct SET issuer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Separate or combined ma=
y be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current backchannel logout very narro=
wly scoped. He suggested risc define its own duplicate
 definitions and meanings.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">That leads me to believ=
e we will have multi-type events in practice.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Session cancellation ca=
n occur for many reasons. One of the differentiators we had tried to make w=
as an assumption that user initiated events would
 be part of connect. Risk would cover variations that drive off of risk cal=
culations like password reset.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">There are also signout =
events at rp&#39;s to let the OP know. These are not commands but notificat=
ion that a resource session is cancelled. IOW single
 sign out not expected.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=
<br>
On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7j=
tb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">ve7=
jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">I thought we decided =
that we are only allowing set messages form the same family that agree on t=
op level claims.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Otherwise there can b=
e no top level claims and we are really defining a alternative format to JW=
T in some ways.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">John B.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:5=
4 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@a=
mazon.com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I agree with John that th=
e JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and should be disc=
ussed separately. The secevents WG is probably not the right setting to dis=
cuss the former.<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">My concern with the sub c=
laim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A=
 says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email add=
ress). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t provide an alternate
 way to declare subject of their events, then they cannot be present within=
 the same token. This incompatibility trap seems like something that could =
be easily missed by groups profiling SET.<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Annabelle Richard Backm=
an<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Identity Services<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4=
629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9.0pt">John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">ve7jtb@ve7=
jtb.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298425=
69385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017=
 at 1:39 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569=
385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span =
style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569=
385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">jricher@mit.edu</span></a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;,
 Annabelle Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</spa=
n></a>&gt;, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a>&gt;,
 Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple=
">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;,
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298=
42569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] soluti=
on for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">In the envelope typ i=
s a media/mime type.=C2=A0 Registering application/idt+jwt if we register j=
wt as a structured name sufix. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Using the cty is also p=
ossible. =C2=A0 I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a =
convention.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Not everything is going=
 to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">If we are going to defi=
ne processing rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for differe=
nt purposes, we should just start using the typ
 parameter based on the existing spec.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In general content snif=
fing if there is more than one option eventually gets you into trouble.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">I am not convinced that=
 forcing there to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. =C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">It is not the way we sh=
ould differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">If sub is not allowed=
 at the top level people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject i=
s scoped to the iss of the token.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">I think defining sub =
to be part of the event for cases where the sub is scoped differently from =
the issuer of the token is fine, but should not
 be required for all event types.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">I think we should sol=
ve the confusion issue separately from the sub issue.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Sorry I am at CIS so =
trying to catch up on lists.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">John B.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:4=
5 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">So to summarize what I&=
#39;m seeing on this thread:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Everybody agrees with M=
arius&#39;s short-term solution, specific rules for &quot;sub&quot; and &qu=
ot;iss&quot; that can be defined in the SET spec.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Almost everybody agrees=
 on a long-term &quot;usage&quot; claim (&quot;type&quot; is taken) that sh=
ould be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Did I miss anything?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">By the way, if we do ad=
d a &quot;usage&quot; claim, we need to also use it in the SET document bef=
ore it is published.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaro=
n<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On 15/06/17 22:08, Just=
in Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div=
><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">+1 to this as well.<spa=
n class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988a=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:0=
9 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google=
.com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">+1 to what Annabelle sa=
id.<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385=
159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Also, Mike you are miss=
ing the other requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pa=
ir at the top level is broken in this case.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Marius<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at=
 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0p=
t;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right=
:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">+1<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_8401716528131129878m_-6656972943685342125m_-462984256938515998=
8m_9094089239668570312AppleMailSignature">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:2=
5 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@a=
mazon.com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Mike,<span style=3D"font-=
size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Your explanation for why =
this is a non-problem is dependent upon side effects of elements of OpenID =
Connect that were not designed to solve this issue. As a result, I see seve=
ral issues with it:<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helveti=
ca&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988=
m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"background:white">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-ser=
if">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_840171652813112987=
8m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can be c=
ertain that a nonce-less ID
 Token is really an ID Token. Any party that the caller passes the ID Token=
 off to has no way to verify its provenance.<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988=
m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"background:white">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-ser=
if">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_840171652813112987=
8m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this prob=
lem again.<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988=
m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<s=
pan class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-462984256938515998=
8apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>No other profile of JWT can eve=
r use the &quot;nonce=E2=80=9D claim.<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988=
m9094089239668570312msolistparagraph" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<s=
pan class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-462984256938515998=
8apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>This is only a solution for ID =
Tokens. Every other JWT
 profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to =
the problem.<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot=
;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">We know from experience t=
hat naming collisions and replay attacks are both things that happen. What=
=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive measure against these risk=
s. You brought up JWT libraries: a general solution
 actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT parsing. A =E2=80=
=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle disambiguation for any JWT=
 profile, whereas with the status quo each profile would require unique log=
ic.<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Annabelle Richard Backm=
an<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Identity Services<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4=
629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9.0pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-eve=
nt-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298425=
69385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017=
 at 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569=
385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569=
385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;Richard Backman, Ann=
abelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>=
&gt;, ID Events Mailing
 List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, Henk =
Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.frau=
nhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298=
42569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] soluti=
on for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimizatio=
n=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =
=E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can an=
d should be simple complex,
 without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread =
to problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.=C2=
=A0 It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible
 for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span class=3D"m_840=
1716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&=
amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746X=
CsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&am=
p;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00428.html=
</span></a>.=C2=A0
 If people have data showing that this is possible with specific kinds of A=
ccess Tokens or other real JWT deployments, please provide specifics, so th=
at we can use that data to inform appropriate engineering choices on our pa=
rt.</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as proh=
ibiting the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a =
type claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.=C2=
=A0
 Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence=
 of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a s=
tandard JWT parser.=C2=A0 The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the mor=
e likely developers are to just create
 their own data structures.=C2=A0 Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.=
=C2=A0 Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#002=
060">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"></p><div><div class=3D"h5=
"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46=
29842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"m=
ailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<spa=
n class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988a=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On
 Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-462984=
2569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Richard Backman, Annab=
elle<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629=
842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5=
:33 PM<br>
</div></div><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-665697294368534=
2125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Marius Scurtes=
cu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;; =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit=
.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-462984=
2569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span class=3D""=
><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4=
629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] soluti=
on for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></span><p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s =
question: can you explain what you mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">To your first question, I=
 think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key Usage extension: a multi-val=
ued property that declares the intended purpose of the JWT, and that a reci=
pient may refer to when determining
 whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.<span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Annabelle Richard Backm=
an<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Identity Services<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4=
629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9.0pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-eve=
nt-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;
 on behalf of Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu=
@google.com</span></a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298425=
69385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 a=
t 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569=
385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span=
></a>&gt;<br>
</span><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-462=
9842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>ID Events Mailing L=
ist &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span cla=
ss=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298=
42569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] soluti=
on for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at=
 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.=
de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">And a 2nd question.<br>
<br>
What semantics would &quot;usage&quot; provide that that are not covered vi=
a &quot;intend&quot;, &quot;audience&quot;, and &quot;scope&quot;?<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&quot;aud&quot; (audien=
ce) specifies the target client, but not the intended usage (access token t=
o authorize resource access or SET to communicate a security
 event?)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&quot;scope&quot; is no=
t used by SET.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">I don&#39;t know what d=
o you mean by &quot;intend&quot; (or intent)?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;=
margin-bottom:5.0pt"><span class=3D"">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</span><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;=
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><span class=3D"">Thanks=
 for putting this together!<br>
<br>
I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br>
<br>
=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a mutuall=
y exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and enforcing thi=
s requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to en=
sure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs
 from a current spec.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdi=
fferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. Whether mandated by=
 the spec or not, implementers will ignore this because managing one key is=
 easier than managing N different keys.<br>
<br>
=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br>
<br>
+1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header par=
ameter.<br>
<br></span><span class=3D"">
--<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943685342125m-46298425693851=
59988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>
<br>
Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
Identity Services<br>
<br></span></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
*From: *Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@iet=
f.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.har=
dt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br>
*To: *Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google=
.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Cc: *Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a>=
&gt;, &quot;matake, nov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</sp=
an></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing
 List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, &quot=
;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</span></a>&gt;<br>
*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distin=
ct SET issuer<br>
<br>
Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.=
9.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscur=
tescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple"><wbr>mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The issue is described by &quot;2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion&quot=
; and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation is in &quot;3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation=
 Rules for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different Kinds of JWTs&quot;, specifically &quot;Use differe=
nt sets of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required claims...&quot;, &quot;Use different keys for differ=
ent kinds of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JWTs.&quot; and &quot;Use different issuers for different kin=
ds of JWTs.&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I still think that a &quot;type&quot; claim would bring a lot=
 of clarity and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 safety.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for =
JWT<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_8401716528131129878m-6656972943=
685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.inf=
o_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057=
SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7J=
PKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpds=
DkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1690</span></a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">adawes@google.com</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">adawes@goo=
gle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I was initially a fan of keeping =
SETS to be very similar to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 id tokens but I now think this is=
 a better plan.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM ma=
take, nov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@=
matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1 especially for &=
quot;type&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-06-09 10:32 GM=
T+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"></span></p><div><div cl=
ass=3D"h5">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span=
></a>&gt;<wbr>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There were a couple of proposals on how to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disti=
nguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 such =
a way that naive implementations will not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 confu=
se one for the other and open up security<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vulne=
rabilities.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SET i=
ssuer in some cases must be different from the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;sub&quot; issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to an=
 IdP.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 follo=
wing:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - both &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;iss&quot; to be defined at the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; at event level and at top SET level can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be di=
fferent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; at event level can be differe=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 acros=
s events in the same SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; - &quot;sub&quot; should NOT be present at the top SET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 level=
 (this solves the disambiguation), please note<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot=
;should&quot; and not &quot;must&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; This solution also allows different profiles that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e event types to define additional claims<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 relat=
ed to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 since=
 all these claims will be at the event level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there=
 will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Another proposal (which I supported) was to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defin=
e a composite &quot;aud&quot; claim. This is not solving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the r=
equirement for a distinct=C2=A0 SET issuer. Also,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 havin=
g the same claim name having different syntax<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in di=
fferent token types could lead to confusion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim=
 for JWTs that defines a &quot;type&quot;. This is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pract=
ical in the short term, and it also is not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solvi=
ng the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =
is something the JWT group should seriously<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consi=
der.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Thoughts?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&gt; Marius<br>
<br></div></div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ___________________=
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager =
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<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________=
_______<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id=
-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10=
&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7Tm=
GMSWWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>Uslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-<w=
br>00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3D<wbr>P7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg<wbr>7oMU7TmGM=
SWWs&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________=
_______<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDh=
mHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-=
event</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<pre style=3D"background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>_____________=
____<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</spa=
n></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgrou=
nd-repeat:initial initial"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZ=
sOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDhmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div></div></blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________=
_______<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDh=
mHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-=
event</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><div><div class=3D"h5">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">_____________________=
_________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsDh=
mHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-=
event</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a113ee86e2267890552e0143d--


From nobody Mon Jun 26 10:19:35 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Yaron Sheffer" <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 17:19:24 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/0qPhtwqlbruE6jTTEY8rnLxUSDg>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer
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Mike,

I disagree with that assessment and think you=E2=80=99re drawing a false =
equivalence. SET *should* be limited to a semantically related set of =
items. Otherwise, what=E2=80=99s the point of a standard? It would just =
be =E2=80=9Coh just everyone use JWTs for different things=E2=80=9D.=20

It sounds like what you want from this group is to declare an =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D top-level claim and then get out of the way. I =
don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s useful on its own, nor is it the best =
we can do.=20

I think the rules I laid out are applicable to all of the use cases that =
have been brought up here so far. RISC isn=E2=80=99t the right place to =
have this discussion =E2=80=94 this list is.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Justin,
> =20
> The rules you=E2=80=99re proposing may be fine for a SET profile for a =
particular kind of application.  I encourage you to join the RISC =
working group and work on them there.  But they would limit the use =
cases that SETs could be used for, which would be unfortunate and =
unnecessary.
> =20
> An analogy with JWT is illustrative.  JWT is intentionally =
general-purpose, leaving it up to application profiles what claims to =
use and what their semantics are.  This enables JWTs to be used for ID =
Tokens <http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#IDToken> =
and also for completely unrelated uses, such as SIP =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8055> and Caller ID =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-11>.  There is no =
expectation of interoperability between these different JWT =
applications.  Indeed =E2=80=93 both the syntax *and the semantics*, =
such has how to determine what keys are valid, are different.  It=E2=80=99=
s this flexibility that makes JWTs general-purpose.
> =20
> Likewise, SET as currently specified is similarly general-purpose.  =
Application profiles define what SET claims to use and their semantics.  =
There is no expectation of interoperability between different SET =
profiles, nor should there be, as their applications are different.  =
Trying to make SETs require choices appropriate to a particular profile =
will necessarily make them a poor or impossible fit for others.  This =
would be a very bad thing.
> =20
> Ironically, =E2=80=9Clocking down=E2=80=9D SET to require choices =
motivated by a particular profile wouldn=E2=80=99t help that profile at =
all, as it would work the same whether SET was =E2=80=9Clocked down=E2=80=9D=
 or not.  But it would unnecessarily preclude use of SETs in other =
contexts that they are currently a great fit for.
> =20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 9:43 AM
> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com>; John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it to an =
IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or maybe I =
misunderstand.
> =20
> We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. A top =
level "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the opaque =
"sub" as issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique only when =
combined with the IdP "iss".
> =20
> Not sure why event.aud would be necessary?
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:
> Mike, this is not at all what I see for having the "most support". =
Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for having "sub" defined clearly in the =
event payload only.
>=20
> The "sub" of the main body is the subject as known by the issuer of =
the SET itself. This might be the same subject that the subject is known =
by at the target of the SET. There are many cases where this isn't true, =
and so far one exception case where it is, sometimes. We should not be =
writing this for the exception.
>=20
> But I think there's a pretty clear path forward. The "sub" in the body =
of a SET, if it is included, is *ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of =
the SET. Always, full stop, no exceptions. No global namespaces, no =
restrictions on content, no formats -- it's an opaque (to the SET =
standard) value in the domain of the issuer of the SET.=20
>=20
> Event payloads, defined in profiles, describe a subject of the event =
itself. Importantly, this is the subject as known by the context in =
which the event will be *received*, not in which it was *issued*. =
Sometimes those are the same, more often (as we're seeing) we can't =
guarantee that. We should not depend on that and we should not treat the =
exceptional case as the usual, no matter what syntax another group has =
come up with.
>=20
> So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be optional, =
and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should not places =
further constraints on that. Events themselves should be self-contained. =
I regret that we didn't make the registration object in RFC7591 more =
self-contained, as that's caused implementation and extension issues. I =
think events should always have an internal subject/issuer pair, in the =
context of where the event is being consumed. We need to define what =
iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside the event object in this =
document, so that different events don't reinvent the same thing over =
and over. If a profile wants to leave that out because they don't need =
an identifier for the payload, then they can leave it out. If they want =
to leave it out because they want to assume there will "always" be an =
iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a problem with that. The =
issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have its own identifier which =
can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a global subject namespace =
or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on this list, is ludicrous =
and will never fly as it goes against how JWT namespacing for people and =
objects has always worked. We should have a clear semantic data =
structure that can be extended and used by all of the use cases that =
we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially based on one event, =
is going to just lead to things being broken and back-patched later on. =
But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub inside the event? They =
can still do that, but I think that's pretty daft.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> In summary:
>=20
> iss: issuer of the event
> sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the event
> event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient of the event
> event.iss: context for the subject of the event as known by the =
recipient of the event
> event.aud: recipient of the event
> =20
>=20
>  -- Justin
>=20
> =20
> On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
> The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping things as =
they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define which =
claims they use and how they use them.
> =20
> It would be fine for some profiles to use the language below.
> =20
> =E2=80=93 Mike
> From: Phil Hunt <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:39 PM
> To: Richard Backman, Annabelle <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>
> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>; John Bradley =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; Henk Birkholz =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Justin Richer =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>; Yaron Sheffer <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; =
Mike Jones <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> So I understand what is being proposed is:
> =20
> If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to identify its subject, =
and the issuer of the subject is identical to the issuer for the event, =
then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top level. Otherwise, the =
subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) and any other claims =
required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be contained in the event =
payload.
> =20
> For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 might be represented in a =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in the event payload. =
=E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"
> A SCIM resource URI of =
https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4 =
<https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4> might =
be identified in the event payload as: =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a24=
2bd3859c82c4 =
<https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4>=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub claim and =
depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event issuer AND =
the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events on behalf =
of the OP.
> =20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles within a =
single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub semantics =
up to the profiles.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM
> To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
> Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Example for multiple events within same profile: IdP account is =
disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead to two events:
> 1. "account-disabled"
> 2. "sessions-revoked"
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> The spec says that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express =
multiple logical events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events =
from different profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. =
an OIDC backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout =
event), then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple =
events in one SET.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM
> To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Michael Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Separate or combined may be evolving. Mike wants to keep the current =
backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. He suggested risc define its =
own duplicate definitions and meanings.=20
> =20
> That leads me to believe we will have multi-type events in practice.
> =20
> Session cancellation can occur for many reasons. One of the =
differentiators we had tried to make was an assumption that user =
initiated events would be part of connect. Risk would cover variations =
that drive off of risk calculations like password reset.=20
> =20
> There are also signout events at rp's to let the OP know. These are =
not commands but notification that a resource session is cancelled. IOW =
single sign out not expected.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I thought we decided that we are only allowing set messages form the =
same family that agree on top level claims.
> =20
> Otherwise there can be no top level claims and we are really defining =
a alternative format to JWT in some ways.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I agree with John that the JWT type confusion problem and the SET sub =
problem can and should be discussed separately. The secevents WG is =
probably not the right setting to discuss the former.
> =20
> My concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate =
conflicting semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, =
Profile B says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=
=99t provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then =
they cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap =
seems like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling =
SET.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM
> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>
> Cc: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>, Marius =
Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, =
Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, =
Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, Michael =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> In the envelope typ is a media/mime type.  Registering =
application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a structured name sufix. =20
> =20
> Using the cty is also possible.   I need to think about what is better =
but we can agree on a convention.
> =20
> Not everything is going to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.
> =20
> If we are going to define processing rules to stop collisions and =
confusion around JWT for different purposes, we should just start using =
the typ parameter based on the existing spec.
> =20
> In general content sniffing if there is more than one option =
eventually gets you into trouble.
> =20
> I am not convinced that forcing there to be no sub at the top level is =
a good idea. =20
> =20
> It is not the way we should differentiate between SET and id_tokens.
> =20
> If sub is not allowed at the top level people will do non SET JWT for =
things where the subject is scoped to the iss of the token.
> =20
> I think defining sub to be part of the event for cases where the sub =
is scoped differently from the issuer of the token is fine, but should =
not be required for all event types.
> =20
> I think we should solve the confusion issue separately from the sub =
issue.
> =20
> Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up on lists.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
> =20
> So to summarize what I'm seeing on this thread:
> Everybody agrees with Marius's short-term solution, specific rules for =
"sub" and "iss" that can be defined in the SET spec.
> Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" claim ("type" is taken) =
that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the JWT BCP.
> Did I miss anything?
> By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we need to also use it in =
the SET document before it is published.
> Thanks,
>     Yaron
> =20
> On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer wrote:
> +1 to this as well.=20
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> =20
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> =20
> +1 to what Annabelle said.=20
> =20
> Also, Mike you are missing the other requirement, for RPs to send =
events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the top level is broken in this =
case.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> +1
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> Mike,
> =20
> Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent upon side =
effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed to solve =
this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:
> 1.       The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party that can =
be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. Any party =
that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to verify its =
provenance.
>=20
> 2.       Any future ID Token distribution method needs to solve this =
problem again.
>=20
> 3.      No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>=20
> 4.      This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other JWT profile =
that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own solution to the =
problem.
>=20
> =20
> We know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are =
both things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, =
defensive measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a =
general solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for =
JWT parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature optimization=E2=80=9D.  =
I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in this thread as =E2=80=9Cprematur=
e pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making things that can and should be =
simple complex, without data showing there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.
> =20
> Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to problems that =
there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even have.  It=E2=80=99s =
already been established that it=E2=80=99s impossible for a SET to be =
confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDb=
n90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&e=3D>. If people have data showing that this =
is possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.
> =20
> The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting the use =
of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type claim, =
would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.  Yes, then =
the result is then different than a normal JWT but a consequence of this =
is that custom parsing code would have to be used, rather than a =
standard JWT parser.  The more unwieldy we make it to use SETs, the more =
likely developers are to just create their own data structures.  Keeping =
it simple is the key to adoption.  Standards are only useful if they are =
actually used.
> =20
>                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Richard Backman, =
Annabelle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you mean by =
=E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> To your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 =
Key Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
> =20
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> And a 2nd question.
>=20
> What semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via =
"intend", "audience", and "scope"?
> =20
> "aud" (audience) specifies the target client, but not the intended =
usage (access token to authorize resource access or SET to communicate a =
security event?)
> =20
> "scope" is not used by SET.
> =20
> I don't know what do you mean by "intend" (or intent)?
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together!
>=20
> I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:
>=20
> =C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every type of JWT will have a =
mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or header parameters, and =
enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D =
approach to ensure that JWTs from some future spec can=E2=80=99t be =
mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.
>=20
> =C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers to adhere to the =
=E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=9D rule. =
Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore this =
because managing one key is easier than managing N different keys.
>=20
> =C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
claims.
>=20
> +1 for a =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D =
claim/header parameter.
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Identity Services
>=20
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> *Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
> *To: *Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
> *Cc: *Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>, =
"matake, nov" <nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer
>=20
> Agreed. Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be =
in 3.9.
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com><mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>     Thanks for the pointer Dick, very good timing :-)
>=20
>     The issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the
>     mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive Validation Rules for
>     Different Kinds of JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of
>     required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of
>     JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different kinds of JWTs.".
>=20
>     I still think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and
>     safety.
>=20
>=20
>     Marius
>=20
>     On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> =
wrote:
>=20
>         Yaron, Mike and I just published an BCP ID for JWT
>         http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissued.info_=
-3Fp-3D1690&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsD=
ft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOpSBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&e=3D>
>=20
>         On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>         <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>             I was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar =
to
>             id tokens but I now think this is a better plan.
>=20
>             On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov <nov@matake.jp =
<mailto:nov@matake.jp>
>             <mailto:nov@matake.jp <mailto:nov@matake.jp>>> wrote:
>=20
>                 +1 especially for "type"
>=20
>                 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt (IDM)
>                 <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com><mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>>:
>=20
>                     +1
>=20
>                     Phil
>=20
>=20
>                      > On Jun 8, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>                     <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
>                     <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>> wrote:
>                      >
>                      > There were a couple of proposals on how to
>                     distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and Access Tokens =
in
>                     such a way that naive implementations will not
>                     confuse one for the other and open up security
>                     vulnerabilities.
>                      >
>                      > There is also another important requirement: =
the
>                     SET issuer in some cases must be different from =
the
>                     "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending =
SETs
>                     to an IdP.
>                      >
>                      > With these requirements in mind I propose the
>                     following:
>                      > - both "sub" and "iss" to be defined at the =
event
>                     level
>                      > - "iss" at event level and at top SET level can
>                     be different
>                      > - "iss" and "sub" at event level can be =
different
>                     across events in the same SET
>                      > - "sub" should NOT be present at the top SET
>                     level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note
>                     "should" and not "must"
>                      >
>                      > This solution also allows different profiles =
that
>                     define event types to define additional claims
>                     related to sub (like email or phone_number) and
>                     since all these claims will be at the event level
>                     there will be no collisions or ambiguity.
>                      >
>                      > Another proposal (which I supported) was to
>                     define a composite "aud" claim. This is not =
solving
>                     the requirement for a distinct SET issuer. Also,
>                     having the same claim name having different syntax
>                     in different token types could lead to confusion.
>                      >
>                      > And yet another proposal was to introduce a new
>                     claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not
>                     practical in the short term, and it also is not
>                     solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I =
think
>                     this is something the JWT group should seriously
>                     consider.
>                      >
>                      > Thoughts?
>                      >
>                      > Marius
>=20
>                      > _______________________________________________
>                      > Id-event mailing list
>                      > Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                      >
>                     =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74A=
ULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLhx=
WI&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJmuutBx4DAPp74=
AULcx2I_jvgXzua6miRiHqWgfxqmg&s=3D5xQqvBiXZ6Ij9NGDwVqXoVpn88YKOCd0mxPQFJLh=
xWI&e=3D>
>=20
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Id-event mailing list
>                     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Id-event mailing list
>                 Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>             --=20
>             Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com =
<mailto:adawes@google.com>
>             <mailto:adawes@google.com <mailto:adawes@google.com>> |+1 =
650-214-2410 <tel:%2B1%20650-214-2410>
>             <tel:(650)%20214-2410 <tel:%28650%29%20214-2410>>
>=20
>             _______________________________________________
>             Id-event mailing list
>             Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHsh=
mQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&s=3DP7mZuGzssKFZYVITX9ugLD4EKb9uyg7oMU7TmGMS=
WWs&e=3D>
>=20
>         --=20
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--Apple-Mail=_25A110D7-5E24-4523-BFE5-2BB04161A6EC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Mike,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
disagree with that assessment and think you=E2=80=99re drawing a false =
equivalence. SET *should* be limited to a semantically related set of =
items. Otherwise, what=E2=80=99s the point of a standard? It would just =
be =E2=80=9Coh just everyone use JWTs for different =
things=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It sounds like what you want from this group is to declare an =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D top-level claim and then get out of the way. I =
don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s useful on its own, nor is it the best =
we can do.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think the rules I laid out are applicable to all of the use =
cases that have been brought up here so far. RISC isn=E2=80=99t the =
right place to have this discussion =E2=80=94 this list is.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Justin,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The rules =
you=E2=80=99re proposing may be fine for a SET profile for a particular =
kind of application.&nbsp; I encourage you to join the RISC working =
group and work on them there.&nbsp; But they would limit the use cases =
that SETs could be used for, which would be unfortunate and =
unnecessary.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">An analogy =
with JWT is illustrative.&nbsp; JWT is intentionally general-purpose, =
leaving it up to application profiles what claims to use and what their =
semantics are.&nbsp; This enables JWTs to be used for<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#IDToken" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ID =
Tokens</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and also =
for completely unrelated uses, such as<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8055" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">SIP</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-11" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Caller =
ID</a>.&nbsp; There is no expectation of interoperability between these =
different JWT applications.&nbsp; Indeed =E2=80=93 both the syntax *<b =
class=3D"">and the semantics</b>*, such has how to determine what keys =
are valid, are different.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s this flexibility that makes =
JWTs general-purpose.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Likewise, =
SET as currently specified is similarly general-purpose.&nbsp; =
Application profiles define what SET claims to use and their =
semantics.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">There is no expectation of interoperability between different =
SET profiles, nor should there be</b>, as their applications are =
different.&nbsp; Trying to make SETs require choices appropriate to a =
particular profile will necessarily make them a poor or impossible fit =
for others.&nbsp; This would be a very bad thing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Ironically, =
=E2=80=9Clocking down=E2=80=9D SET to require choices motivated by a =
particular profile wouldn=E2=80=99t help that profile at all, as it =
would work the same whether SET was =E2=80=9Clocked down=E2=80=9D or =
not.&nbsp; But it would unnecessarily preclude use of SETs in other =
contexts that they are currently a great fit for.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, June 26, 2017 9:43 =
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;; =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for =
Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Justin, in the case when an RP is issuing the SET to send it =
to an IdP, a top level sub as you describe it may not be possible. Or =
maybe I misunderstand.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We agree on "iss" I think, in this case it points to the RP. =
A top level "sub" though is problematic, The RP in many cases has the =
opaque "sub" as issued by the IdP, but this value is globally unique =
only when combined with the IdP "iss".<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Not sure why event.aud would be =
necessary?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Justin =
Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"">Mike, this is not at all what I =
see for having the "most support". Instead I'm seeing a lot of call for =
having "sub" defined clearly in the event payload only.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">The "sub" of the main body is the =
subject as known by the issuer of the SET itself. This might be the same =
subject that the subject is known by at the target of the SET. There are =
many cases where this isn't true, and so far one exception case where it =
is, sometimes. We should not be writing this for the exception.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">But I think there's a pretty clear =
path forward. The "sub" in the body of a SET, if it is included, is =
*ALWAYS* in the context of the "iss" of the SET. Always, full stop, no =
exceptions. No global namespaces, no restrictions on content, no formats =
-- it's an opaque (to the SET standard) value in the domain of the =
issuer of the SET.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">Event payloads, defined in profiles, =
describe a subject of the event itself. Importantly, this is the subject =
as known by the context in which the event will be *received*, not in =
which it was *issued*. Sometimes those are the same, more often (as =
we're seeing) we can't guarantee that. We should not depend on that and =
we should not treat the exceptional case as the usual, no matter what =
syntax another group has come up with.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"">So here's the thing. I think the "sub" of an event should be =
optional, and ALWAYS in the context of the issuer, and profiles should =
not places further constraints on that. Events themselves should be =
self-contained. I regret that we didn't make the registration object in =
RFC7591 more self-contained, as that's caused implementation and =
extension issues. I think events should always have an internal =
subject/issuer pair, in the context of where the event is being =
consumed. We need to define what iss/sub mean (in a grand sense) inside =
the event object in this document, so that different events don't =
reinvent the same thing over and over. If a profile wants to leave that =
out because they don't need an identifier for the payload, then they can =
leave it out. If they want to leave it out because they want to assume =
there will "always" be an iss/sub in the root of the SET, then I have a =
problem with that. The issuer of the SET can, and probably does, have =
its own identifier which can't be assumed to be universal. Proposing a =
global subject namespace or format, as has been suggested elsewhere on =
this list, is ludicrous and will never fly as it goes against how JWT =
namespacing for people and objects has always worked. We should have a =
clear semantic data structure that can be extended and used by all of =
the use cases that we've adopted. Optimizing at this stage, especially =
based on one event, is going to just lead to things being broken and =
back-patched later on. But if one spec wants to leave out the iss/sub =
inside the event? They can still do that, but I think that's pretty =
daft.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"">In summary:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">iss: issuer of the =
event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">sub: subject of the event as known by the issuer of the =
event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">event.sub: subject of the event as known by the recipient =
of the event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">event.iss: context for the subject of the event as =
known by the recipient of the event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">event.aud: recipient of the event<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><p class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On 6/21/2017 7:45 PM, Mike Jones wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The proposal that I believe has the most support is keeping =
things as they are, leaving it up to profiles and applications to define =
which claims they use and how they use them.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It would =
be fine for some profiles to use the language below.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93 =
Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, =
2017 6:39 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Richard Backman, =
Annabelle</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Marius =
Scurtescu</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">John Bradley</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Henk =
Birkholz</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Justin Richer</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Yaron Sheffer</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Mike =
Jones</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ID Events Mailing =
List</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution =
for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So I understand what is being proposed =
is:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">If the event type uses =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to =
identify its subject, and the issuer of the subject is identical to the =
issuer for the event, then =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D may be used at the top =
level. Otherwise, the subject of an event (e.g. =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D) =
and any other claims required to uniquely identify the subject MUST be =
contained in the event payload.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For example, an ip address of 1.2.3.4 =
might be represented in a =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D claim defined in =
the event payload. =E2=80=9Cipaddress=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D1.2.3.4"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">A SCIM resource URI of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=
</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>might be =
identified in the event payload as: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/users/ac1faebbfd3c45ce9a242bd3859c82c4=
</a>=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">A Connect Logout event from an OP uses the top level sub =
claim and depends on =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D being the same for the event =
issuer AND the subject. This means that no party may issue logout events =
on behalf of the OP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; =
Standards<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:38 =
PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Fair point. If we do not intend to support multiple profiles =
within a single SET, then I=E2=80=99m less concerned about leaving sub =
semantics up to the profiles.<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wedn=
esday, June 21, 2017 at 2:58 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ric=
hard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Phi=
l Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;,=
 Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;, =
Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Example for multiple events within same =
profile: IdP account is disabled (because of hijacking), this can lead =
to two events:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">1. "account-disabled"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">2. "sessions-revoked"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">The spec says =
that the events claim SHOULD NOT be used to express multiple logical =
events. If it=E2=80=99s also not used to express events from different =
profiles that correspond to the same logical event (e.g. an OIDC =
backchannel logout event alongside a hypothetical RISC logout event), =
then I=E2=80=99m not sure what use case that leaves for multiple events =
in one SET.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard =
Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil =
Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wedn=
esday, June 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>John=
 Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Ric=
hard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;, Justin Richer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</span></a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Michael Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and distinct SET =
issuer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Separate or combined may be evolving. =
Mike wants to keep the current backchannel logout very narrowly scoped. =
He suggested risc define its own duplicate definitions and =
meanings.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That leads me to believe we will have =
multi-type events in practice.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Session cancellation can occur for =
many reasons. One of the differentiators we had tried to make was an =
assumption that user initiated events would be part of connect. Risk =
would cover variations that drive off of risk calculations like password =
reset.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are also signout events at rp's =
to let the OP know. These are not commands but notification that a =
resource session is cancelled. IOW single sign out not =
expected.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 1:58 PM, =
John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I thought we decided that we are only =
allowing set messages form the same family that agree on top level =
claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Otherwise there can be no top level claims =
and we are really defining a alternative format to JWT in some ways.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">I agree with John that the JWT type =
confusion problem and the SET sub problem can and should be discussed =
separately. The secevents WG is probably not the right setting to =
discuss the former.<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">My =
concern with the sub claim is that two profiles may dictate conflicting =
semantics (e.g. Profile A says it=E2=80=99s a phone number, Profile B =
says it=E2=80=99s an email address). If these profiles don=E2=80=99t =
provide an alternate way to declare subject of their events, then they =
cannot be present within the same token. This incompatibility trap seems =
like something that could be easily missed by groups profiling SET.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">John =
Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 1:39 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</span></a>&gt;, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;, Annabelle =
Richard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Michael Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the envelope typ is a media/mime =
type.&nbsp; Registering application/idt+jwt if we register jwt as a =
structured name sufix. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Using the cty is also possible. =
&nbsp; I need to think about what is better but we can agree on a =
convention.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Not everything is going =
to be a set token like not every JWS is a JWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If we are going to define processing =
rules to stop collisions and confusion around JWT for different =
purposes, we should just start using the typ parameter based on the =
existing spec.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In general content sniffing if there =
is more than one option eventually gets you into trouble.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I am not convinced that forcing there =
to be no sub at the top level is a good idea. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is not the way we should =
differentiate between SET and id_tokens.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If sub is not allowed at the top level =
people will do non SET JWT for things where the subject is scoped to the =
iss of the token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think defining sub to be part of the =
event for cases where the sub is scoped differently from the issuer of =
the token is fine, but should not be required for all event types.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think we should solve the confusion =
issue separately from the sub issue.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Sorry I am at CIS so trying to catch up =
on lists.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 17, 2017, at 3:45 =
PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So to summarize what I'm =
seeing on this thread:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Everybody agrees with Marius's =
short-term solution, specific rules for "sub" and "iss" that can be =
defined in the SET spec.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Almost everybody agrees on a long-term "usage" =
claim ("type" is taken) that should be defined elsewhere, e.g. in the =
JWT BCP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Did I miss anything?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">By the way, if we do add a "usage" claim, we =
need to also use it in the SET document before it is published.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On 15/06/17 22:08, Justin Richer =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to this as well.<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:09 =
PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to what Annabelle =
said.<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Also, Mike you are missing the other =
requirement, for RPs to send events to an IdP. The iss+sub pair at the =
top level is broken in this case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312App=
leMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 =
id=3D"m_-6656972943685342125m_-4629842569385159988m_9094089239668570312App=
leMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:25 =
PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">Mike,<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Your explanation for why this is a non-problem is dependent =
upon side effects of elements of OpenID Connect that were not designed =
to solve this issue. As a result, I see several issues with it:<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">1.<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>The caller of the Token Endpoint is the only party =
that can be certain that a nonce-less ID Token is really an ID Token. =
Any party that the caller passes the ID Token off to has no way to =
verify its provenance.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">2.<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>Any future ID Token distribution method needs to =
solve this problem again.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">3.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>No other profile of JWT can ever use the "nonce=E2=80=9D=
 claim.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988m9094089239668570312mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">4.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span>This is only a solution for ID Tokens. Every other =
JWT profile that cares about disambiguation has to invent its own =
solution to the problem.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">We =
know from experience that naming collisions and replay attacks are both =
things that happen. What=E2=80=99s being proposed is a simple, defensive =
measure against these risks. You brought up JWT libraries: a general =
solution actually makes it easier to use common libraries for JWT =
parsing. A =E2=80=9Cusage-aware=E2=80=9D JWT library could handle =
disambiguation for any JWT profile, whereas with the status quo each =
profile would require unique logic.<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve heard of =E2=80=9Cpremature =
optimization=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99d characterize the proposals in =
this thread as =E2=80=9Cpremature pessimation=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 making =
things that can and should be simple complex, without data showing =
there=E2=80=99s any need to do so.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Mandatory solutions are being proposed in this thread to =
problems that there=E2=80=99s no evidence that we actually even =
have.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s already been established that it=E2=80=99s =
impossible for a SET to be confused for an ID Token =E2=80=93 see<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00428.html&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITS=
eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUslj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai11=
5c&amp;s=3DeKLTQPmYrV3ThfDbn90SCs55UROTPin_lgc6Rdr5Xow&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00428=
.html</span></a>.&nbsp; If people have data showing that this is =
possible with specific kinds of Access Tokens or other real JWT =
deployments, please provide specifics, so that we can use that data to =
inform appropriate engineering choices on our part.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">The proposed =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D, such as prohibiting =
the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the normal way, or requiring a type =
claim, would make previously simple things unnecessarily complex.&nbsp; =
Yes, then the result is then different than a normal JWT but a =
consequence of this is that custom parsing code would have to be used, =
rather than a standard JWT parser.&nbsp; The more unwieldy we make it to =
use SETs, the more likely developers are to just create their own data =
structures.&nbsp; Keeping it simple is the key to adoption.&nbsp; =
Standards are only useful if they are actually used.</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
-- Mike</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Richard Backman, Annabelle<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:33 PM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion and =
distinct SET issuer<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">Echoing Marius=E2=80=99s question: can you explain what you =
mean by =E2=80=9Cintend=E2=80=9D?<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">To =
your first question, I think a better analogy would be the X.509 Key =
Usage extension: a multi-valued property that declares the intended =
purpose of the JWT, and that a recipient may refer to when determining =
whether to accept a JWT being presented to it in some context.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" =
class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:05 AM<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token confusion =
and distinct SET issuer</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">And a 2nd question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What =
semantics would "usage" provide that that are not covered via "intend", =
"audience", and "scope"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"aud" (audience) specifies the target =
client, but not the intended usage (access token to authorize resource =
access or SET to communicate a security event?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"scope" is not used by SET.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don't know what do you mean by =
"intend" (or intent)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 06/13/2017 01:01 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks for putting this together!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I think the assumptions inherent in 3.9 are flawed:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7We can=E2=80=99t guarantee that every =
type of JWT will have a mutually exclusive set of valid claims and/or =
header parameters, and enforcing this requires a =E2=80=9Cfail on an =
unrecognized claim=E2=80=9D approach to ensure that JWTs from some =
future spec can=E2=80=99t be mistaken for JWTs from a current spec.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7It is unrealistic to expect implementers =
to adhere to the =E2=80=9Cdifferent keys for different kinds of JWTs=E2=80=
=9D rule. Whether mandated by the spec or not, implementers will ignore =
this because managing one key is easier than managing N different =
keys.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=C2=B7Ditto for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">+1 for a =
=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D claim/header =
parameter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Identity Services<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">*From: *Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; on behalf of Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D"">*Date: *Monday, June 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM<br class=3D"">*To: =
*Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc: *Adam =
Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"matake, nov" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;, ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">*Subject: *Re: [Id-event] solution for Id/Access Token =
confusion and distinct SET issuer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed. =
Note that there is still lots of discussion on what should be in 3.9.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for the pointer Dick, =
very good timing :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The =
issue is described by "2.7. Cross-JWT Confusion" and the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mitigation is in "3.9. Use Mutually Exclusive =
Validation Rules for<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Different Kinds of =
JWTs", specifically "Use different sets of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
required claims...", "Use different keys for different kinds of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; JWTs." and "Use different issuers for different =
kinds of JWTs.".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I still =
think that a "type" claim would bring a lot of clarity and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; safety.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron, Mike and I =
just published an BCP ID for JWT<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__self-2Dissue=
d.info_-3Fp-3D1690&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUs=
lj7GU7JPKHshmQl7j746XCsDft-00Y_3zRoai115c&amp;s=3Da7XvZ5jTbtA2vjfaHIMbvEOp=
SBBlBpdsDkITZMcUIUQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1690</span></a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:02 PM =
Adam Dawes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">adawes@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I =
was initially a fan of keeping SETS to be very similar to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; id tokens but I now =
think this is a better plan.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:56 PM matake, nov =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nov@matake.jp" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">nov@matake.jp</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1 =
especially for "type"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2017-06-09 10:32 GMT+09:00 Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phil<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; On Jun 8, 2017, at =
6:28 PM, Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; There were a couple =
of proposals on how to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distinguish SETs from Id Tokens and =
Access Tokens in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; such a way that naive implementations will =
not<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; confuse one for the other and open up security<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; vulnerabilities.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; There is also another important requirement: the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; SET issuer in some cases must be different from the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; "sub" issuer. This is the case of an RP sending SETs<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; to an IdP.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; With these requirements in mind I propose the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; following:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - both "sub" and =
"iss" to be defined at the event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" at event level and at top SET level =
can<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "iss" and =
"sub" at event level can be different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; across events in the =
same SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; - "sub" should NOT be present at the top =
SET<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; level (this solves the disambiguation), please =
note<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "should" and not "must"<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; This solution also allows different profiles =
that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define event types to define additional claims<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; related to sub (like email or phone_number) and<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; since all these claims will be at the event level<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; there will be no collisions or ambiguity.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Another proposal =
(which I supported) was to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define a composite "aud" =
claim. This is not solving<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the requirement for a =
distinct&nbsp; SET issuer. Also,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; having the same claim =
name having different syntax<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in different token types could =
lead to confusion.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; And yet another proposal was to introduce a new<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; claim for JWTs that defines a "type". This is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; practical in the short term, and it also is not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; solving the distinct issuer requirement, but I think<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; this is something the JWT group should seriously<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; consider.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Thoughts?<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Marius<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&gt; Id-event mailing list<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
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class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
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class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6656972943685342125m-4629842569385159988apple-converted-space">=
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&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; _______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
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--<span =
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&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
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&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a =
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purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
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_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
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quote></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
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purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
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class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
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class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
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sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
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initial;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
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initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D""><a =
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g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dl-O82NLI-b8QDl2Q9TkpVobQz3h_4TyBGAq5pfZsOcw&amp;s=3D0LWRlGTIqiTsD=
hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
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Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
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class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
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white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
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class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
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 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
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class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
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white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
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uote></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
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g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
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hmHuRIB5-RRft82C729-PEYJhLu5SQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 00:08:23 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/uefP_11okHcz7X1wVZtXJihMxiM>
Subject: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Hi folks,

I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current e=
ditor's draft before they are published.

The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requirin=
g that SETs not include a top-level "exp" claim when ID Tokens could also b=
e generated by the same issuer.  Because "exp" is a required ID Token claim=
, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  N=
ote that this solution is already recommended in the specification.  The ed=
itor's draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicag=
o and that has been the subject of much discussion since.

The second adds the following new section:

Requirements for SET Profiles<file:///C:/mbj/DSG/JSON%20Specs/draft-ietf-se=
cevent-token.html#Profiles>

Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs con=
forming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax=
 defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and event payload=
 values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.

Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile i=
s equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures use=
d to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issue=
r that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing =
the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving=
 the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as its input.

Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a=
 SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both s=
yntactically and semantically valid.

It's included to inform profile writers about what they must do to be able =
to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has been abo=
ut syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considered by profil=
e writers and deployers.

I believe that the new section contains only statements that are already fa=
ctually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The edito=
r's draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on how to make these=
 requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.

                                                                Best wishes=
,
                                                                -- Mike


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec u=
pdates in the current editor&#8217;s draft before they are published.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confus=
ion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level &#8220;exp&#8221=
; claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; Be=
cause &#8220;exp&#8221; is a required ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The edit=
or&#8217;s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides =
a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><a href=3D"file:///C:/mbj/DSG/JSON%20Specs/draft-i=
etf-secevent-token.html#Profiles"><span style=3D"color:black;text-decoratio=
n:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax =
and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validati=
ng those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SET=
s utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is de=
fining the procedures used to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's key=
s that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courie=
r New&quot;;color:black">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"> claim value as=
 its input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:24.0pt;=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the st=
eps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to valida=
te that the SET is both syntactically and semantically
 valid. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It&#8217;s included to inform profile writers about =
what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of the =
discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important=
, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only stateme=
nts that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previous=
ly unstated.&nbsp; The editor&#8217;s draft makes these requirements explic=
it.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "ID
Token" confusion concern.

By making the "exp" claim that is already
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1> NOT
RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens
and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of
JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for
its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which
other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to
do

The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss"
partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way
that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability
goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.


On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
>
>
> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current
> editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>
>
>
> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim w=
hen ID Tokens
> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID
> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in the
> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution man=
datory.
> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to
> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
> discussion since.
>
>
>
> The second adds the following new section:
>
>
>
> Requirements for SET Profiles
>
>
>
> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs
> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The
> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and event
> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>
>
>
> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile
> is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures
> used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the
> issuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT
> representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm
> for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as its
> input.
>
>
>
> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of
> a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is bot=
h
> syntactically and semantically valid.
>
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do t=
o be able
> to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has been
> about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considered by
> profile writers and deployers.
>
>
>
> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are already
> factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The
> editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on ho=
w to make
> these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>
>
>
>                                                                 Best
> wishes,
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>

--94eb2c08b82c7d723b05530e5364
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you Mike for working on this. I&#39;m very happ=
y with the change regarding the &quot;exp&quot; claim, and believe it is th=
e best resolution to the &quot;ID Token&quot; confusion concern.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>By making the &quot;exp&quot; claim that is <a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1">already</a=
> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID To=
kens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types=
 of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows &quot;sub&quot; =
to be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modific=
ation, which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed a=
n interest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the community will ga=
in from the SET standard overall is a standard way to express events that w=
on&#39;t conflict with ID Token (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioning required).=
 With Mike&#39;s changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the ori=
ginal simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not re=
defining any of JWT&#39;s standard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at=
 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec u=
pdates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confus=
ion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.=C2=
=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The edit=
or=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provide=
s a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><a><span style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none=
">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax =
and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validati=
ng those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SET=
s utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is de=
fining the procedures used to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s=
 keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courie=
r New&quot;;color:black">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"> claim value as=
 its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the st=
eps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to valida=
te that the SET is both syntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers abou=
t what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much of th=
e discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally importa=
nt, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only stateme=
nts that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previous=
ly unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements expl=
icit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c08b82c7d723b05530e5364--


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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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I agree on the exp part.=20

Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20

For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if diff=
erent set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20

Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption with=
out consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key management m=
ight be better tied up in how the streams are manages because the network re=
lationship may define the requirements rather than the data.=20

My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid inte=
rpretation.=20

If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20

I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20

Thanks!

Phil

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change regardi=
ng the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" c=
onfusion concern.
>=20
> By making the "exp" claim that is already NOT RECOMMENDED in the current d=
raft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee t=
hat is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a common is=
suer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended purpose (as defined=
 by RFC7519) without modification, which other working groups that wish to p=
rofile SET have expressed an interest to do
>=20
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a sta=
ndard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" part=
itioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way that r=
etains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of S=
ET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>=
 wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current=
 editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requir=
ing that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID To=
kens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existi=
ng ID Token validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended=
 in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solutio=
n mandatory.  This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we a=
greed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much d=
iscussion since.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The second adds the following new section:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs c=
onforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The synta=
x defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and event payload=
 values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>> =20
>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile=
 is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures us=
ed to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issue=
r that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing t=
he SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving t=
he SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as its input.
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of=
 a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both s=
yntactically and semantically valid.
>> =20
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do t=
o be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has=
 been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considered b=
y profile writers and deployers.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are already f=
actually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The edito=
r=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on how to mak=
e these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                                 Best wish=
es,
>>=20
>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree on the exp part.&nbsp;</div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Regard=
ing the second part. I would like to see more discussion.&nbsp;</div><div id=
=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">For example=
, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set p=
rofiles cannot be sent over the same stream.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMail=
Signature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Such profiles should avo=
id things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration regard=
ing how they are transferred. &nbsp;Also key management might be better tied=
 up in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may defi=
ne the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">My initial reaction is, the=
 profiles should stick to the data and valid interpretation.&nbsp;<br><br>If=
 the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.&nbsp;</div=
><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I c=
an merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.&nbsp;</div=
><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Tha=
nks!</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Jun 28, 2=
017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com">=
wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy w=
ith the change regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolut=
ion to the "ID Token" confusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making t=
he "exp" claim that is <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23sect=
ion-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10=
&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-=
CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2q=
fUWs&amp;e=3D">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, w=
e can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, al=
lowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also al=
lows "sub" to be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) witho=
ut modification, which other working groups that wish to profile SET have ex=
pressed an interest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the community=
 will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard way to express events=
 that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" partitioning required). With Mi=
ke's changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original simplic=
ity, extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any o=
f JWT's standard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec up=
dates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusi=
on problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; B=
ecause =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note that=
 this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The editor=
=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a=
 simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discus=
sion since.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black"><a><span style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none">=
Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax an=
d semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating t=
hose SETs. The syntax defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by SE=
Ts utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs u=
tilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defini=
ng the procedures used to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for c=
ryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, s=
ome profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys th=
at uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:black">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"> claim value as it=
s input.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the step=
s that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate t=
hat the SET is both syntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about=
 what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of the d=
iscussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, a=
nd must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statemen=
ts that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previously=
 unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explici=
t.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><=
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<br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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	charset=utf-8

I agree on exp.

I think defining trust relationships should be in the profiles as they =
may be quite different.

That is why mixing events in the same message will be a problem.  I =
thought we agreed on that.

Trying to define a fixed trust relationship for the transport is likely =
going to cause people to roll there own.

Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see diffrences in =
registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS and other =
regulations.

One size fits all is great if you are the one size. =20

I do think we should encourage people to use JWKS URI discovers from =
issuer meta-data based on the issuers well-known as a pattern that has =
proven to be repeatable.=20

It would be nice if we had those specs done in the IETF:)

John B.


> On Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I agree on the exp part.=20
>=20
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
>=20
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues =
if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
>=20
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are =
manages because the network relationship may define the requirements =
rather than the data.=20
>=20
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and =
valid interpretation.=20
>=20
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20
>=20
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
>>=20
>> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
>>=20
>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is =
a standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The second adds the following new section:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Requirements for SET Profiles <>
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>> =20
>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>>=20
>>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I agree on exp.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think defining trust relationships should be in the =
profiles as they may be quite different.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is why mixing events in the same =
message will be a problem. &nbsp;I thought we agreed on that.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Trying to define a fixed =
trust relationship for the transport is likely going to cause people to =
roll there own.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see =
diffrences in registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS =
and other regulations.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">One size fits all is great if you are the one size. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I do =
think we should encourage people to use JWKS URI discovers from issuer =
meta-data based on the issuers well-known as a pattern that has proven =
to be repeatable.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It would be nice if we had those specs done in the =
IETF:)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John =
B.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I =
agree on the exp part.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Regarding the second part. I =
would like to see more discussion.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">For example, in the the use =
cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles =
cannot be sent over the same stream.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Such profiles should avoid =
things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration =
regarding how they are transferred. &nbsp;Also key management might be =
better tied up in how the streams are manages because the network =
relationship may define the requirements rather than the =
data.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">My =
initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid =
interpretation.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the group agrees I =
will merge the exp and post over the weekend.&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I can merge the second part =
if there is a strong agreement to do so.&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Thanks!</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Phil</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Jun 28, =
2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the =
change regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution =
to the "ID Token" confusion concern.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">By making the "exp" claim that is<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">already</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the =
current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET =
uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs =
to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for =
its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which =
other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest =
to do</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a =
standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi =
folks,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I =
wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current =
editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential =
ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a =
top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be =
generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a =
required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID =
Token validation code.&nbsp; Note that this solution is already =
recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft =
update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a simple and =
durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago =
and that has been the subject of much discussion since.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The =
second adds the following new section:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 24pt; =
margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Requirements=
 for SET Profiles</span></a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: =
24pt; margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right: 24pt; margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define =
the syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and =
rules for validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling =
specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by =
SETs utilizing the profile.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: =
24pt; margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right: 24pt; margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Defining the semantics of the SET =
contents for SETs utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly =
most important is defining the procedures used to validate the SET =
issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used =
for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For =
instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET =
issuer's keys that uses the<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>claim value as its input.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right: 24pt; margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: =
24pt; margin-left: 24pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=
=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do to be =
able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of the discussion as of late =
has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section =
contains only statements that are already factually accurate =
requirements but that were previously unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s=
 draft makes these requirements explicit.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make =
these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">Id-event mailing list</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
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class=3D""></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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+1=20

Thanks for you work on this and support both these changes.=20

- Mark

> On 29 Jun 2017, at 01:24, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
>=20
> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2.1> =
NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID =
Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two =
types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to =
be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without =
modification, which other working groups that wish to profile SET have =
expressed an interest to do
>=20
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a =
standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> Hi folks,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The second adds the following new section:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Requirements for SET Profiles <>
> =20
> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
> =20
> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
> =20
> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient =
of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is =
both syntactically and semantically valid.
> =20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>=20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--Apple-Mail=_DD529526-2B01-4A71-B7D4-A91568728528
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">+1&nbsp;<div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for you work on this and support =
both these changes.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">- Mark</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 29 Jun 2017, at 01:24, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thank you Mike for working on =
this. I'm very happy with the change regarding the "exp" claim, and =
believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" confusion =
concern.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">By =
making the "exp" claim that is <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-01#section-2=
.1" class=3D"">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST =
NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is =
desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a common =
issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended purpose (as =
defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other working groups =
that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The benefit the =
community will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard way to =
express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" partitioning =
required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way that =
retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability =
goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, =
Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec =
updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are =
published.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET =
confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by =
the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID =
Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note =
that this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; =
The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; =
This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much =
discussion since.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a class=3D""><span style=3D"text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define the =
syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules =
for validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used =
by SETs utilizing the profile.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for =
SETs utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important =
is defining the procedures used to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used =
for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For =
instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET =
issuer's keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""> claim value as its =
input.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the =
steps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to =
validate that the SET is both syntactically and semantically
 valid. <u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers =
about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While =
much of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is =
equally important, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only =
statements that are already factually accurate requirements but that =
were previously unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these =
requirements explicit.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:50:58 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/higSvZICAVMtp5QA3NGtTIYTp6w>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:02:33 -0700
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To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>,  Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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+1 for exp

If we allow only one profile per SET then maybe we need a profile URI and
this URI should be present as a top level claim? Or even adding the profile
URI to the JWT header?

Having to fully parse the SET to infer the profile based on event types
only to very the signature does not sound right. Also, mapping from event
type URIs to profiles is not clear. Imagine a receiver that accepts events
(it must validate at least syntax and signatures) then further distributes
them based on either audience or event type. You don't want to update this
receiver every single time a profile adds a new event type.

Another potential solution for key location is to have the transmitter
explicitly publish it, as mentioned in another email thread.

We still have one open issue: SET issuer vs sub context issuer. Asking
profiles to deal with this does not sound safe nor enough to me.

Marius

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:

> I agree on exp.
>
> I think defining trust relationships should be in the profiles as they ma=
y
> be quite different.
>
> That is why mixing events in the same message will be a problem.  I
> thought we agreed on that.
>
> Trying to define a fixed trust relationship for the transport is likely
> going to cause people to roll there own.
>
> Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see diffrences in
> registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS and other
> regulations.
>
> One size fits all is great if you are the one size.
>
> I do think we should encourage people to use JWKS URI discovers from
> issuer meta-data based on the issuers well-known as a pattern that has
> proven to be repeatable.
>
> It would be nice if we had those specs done in the IETF:)
>
> John B.
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>
> I agree on the exp part.
>
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if
> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption
> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages because
> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the data=
.
>
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid
> interpretation.
>
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "=
ID
> Token" confusion concern.
>
> By making the "exp" claim that is already
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_evk=
lX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>  NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two
> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to =
be
> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificatio=
n,
> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
> interest to do
>
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss=
"
> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way
> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability
> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the curren=
t
>> editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>
>>
>>
>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens
>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID
>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in the
>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution ma=
ndatory.
>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to
>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>> discussion since.
>>
>>
>>
>> The second adds the following new section:
>>
>>
>>
>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>
>>
>>
>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs
>> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The
>> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and even=
t
>> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>
>>
>>
>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profil=
e
>> is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures
>> used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the
>> issuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT
>> representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorith=
m
>> for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as
>> its input.
>>
>>
>>
>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient o=
f
>> a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is bo=
th
>> syntactically and semantically valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do =
to be
>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has
>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considere=
d
>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are already
>> factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The
>> editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on h=
ow to make
>> these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                 Best
>> wishes,
>>
>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
>
>
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>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 for exp<div><br></div><div>If we allow only one profile=
 per SET then maybe we need a profile URI and this URI should be present as=
 a top level claim? Or even adding the profile URI to the JWT header?</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Having to fully parse the SET to infer the profile base=
d on event types only to very the signature does not sound right. Also, map=
ping from event type URIs to profiles is not clear. Imagine a receiver that=
 accepts events (it must validate at least syntax and signatures) then furt=
her distributes them based on either audience or event type. You don&#39;t =
want to update this receiver every single time a profile adds a new event t=
ype.</div><div><br></div><div>Another potential solution for key location i=
s to have the transmitter explicitly publish it, as mentioned in another em=
ail thread.</div><div><br></div><div>We still have one open issue: SET issu=
er vs sub context issuer. Asking profiles to deal with this does not sound =
safe nor enough to me.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"a=
ll"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">=
Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, John Bradl=
ey <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I agree on exp.<div><br></div><div>=
I think defining trust relationships should be in the profiles as they may =
be quite different.</div><div><br></div><div>That is why mixing events in t=
he same message will be a problem.=C2=A0 I thought we agreed on that.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Trying to define a fixed trust relationship for the tra=
nsport is likely going to cause people to roll there own.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see diffrenc=
es in registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS and other re=
gulations.</div><div><br></div><div>One size fits all is great if you are t=
he one size. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I do think we should encourage=
 people to use JWKS URI discovers from issuer meta-data based on the issuer=
s well-known as a pattern that has proven to be repeatable.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>It would be nice if we had those specs done in the IETF:)</=
div><div><br></div><div>John B.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, P=
hil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-5609549406417505=
50Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I agre=
e on the exp part.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Regarding the second part. I would =
like to see more discussion.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">For example, in the the u=
se cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles canno=
t be sent over the same stream.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform=
:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fon=
t-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Such profiles should a=
void things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration reg=
arding how they are transferred.=C2=A0 Also key management might be better =
tied up in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may=
 define the requirements rather than the data.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norma=
l;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">My init=
ial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid interpreta=
tion.=C2=A0<br><br>If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over t=
he weekend.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;f=
ont-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I can merge the second part if there is a =
strong agreement to do so.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Thanks!</div><div style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>Phil</div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">=
<br>On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wden=
niss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><b=
r></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:=
12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you Mike for =
working on this. I&#39;m very happy with the change regarding the &quot;exp=
&quot; claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the &quot;ID Token&q=
uot; confusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the &quot;exp&qu=
ot; claim that is<span class=3D"m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2=
.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStq=
OQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">already</a><span class=3D"m_-56095494064175055=
0Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a=
 MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that i=
s desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer=
. This also allows &quot;sub&quot; to be used for its intended purpose (as =
defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other working groups that w=
ish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do</div><div><br></div><di=
v>The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a st=
andard way to express events that won&#39;t conflict with ID Token (no &quo=
t;iss&quot; partitioning required). With Mike&#39;s changes we achieve that=
, and in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and gene=
ralizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT&#39;s standard claim=
s.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones<span class=3D"m_-56=
0954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jon=
es@<wbr>microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_-560954940641750550App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style=
:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN=
-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_-560954940641750550=
m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u>=
<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the cur=
rent editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u></u><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The firs=
t solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring that S=
ETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens coul=
d also be generated by the same issuer.=C2=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D=
 is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing=
 ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note that this solution is already recomme=
nded in the specification.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes th=
is solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provides a simple and durable solution to=
 the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the=
 subject of much discussion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the followin=
g new section:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;marg=
in-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:V=
erdana,sans-serif"><a><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for=
 SET Profiles</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;marg=
in-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Profile Specifications for SETs define =
the syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules f=
or validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling specifications in=
cludes what claims and event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the =
profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-rig=
ht:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D=
"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;marg=
in-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:V=
erdana,sans-serif">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs util=
izing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining=
 the procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys cont=
rolled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in th=
e JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algor=
ithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s keys that uses the<span class=3D"m=
_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">iss</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"=
><span class=3D"m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>cl=
aim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;marg=
in-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Profile Specifications MUST clearly spe=
cify the steps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perfor=
m to validate that the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.<sp=
an class=3D"m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what t=
hey must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much of the discus=
sion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and =
must be considered by profile writers and deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe =
that the new section contains only statements that are already factually ac=
curate requirements but that were previously unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=
=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to m=
ake these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-sty=
le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px"><div><span>______________________________<wbr>_____________=
____</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailt=
o:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><spa=
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_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUxKQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefe=
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e4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_<wbr>AeS-<wbr>CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp=
;<wbr>s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_<wbr>pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-<wbr>nFaqUxKQ&amp;e=3D</a=
><span class=3D"m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></=
span><br></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:=
12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">__________=
____________________<wbr>_________________</span><br style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!i=
mportant">Id-event mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
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-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
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listinfo/id-event</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>_________=
_____________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
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><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113f8e7e1dbf4f05531d1ccf--


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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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A SET Profile is just a data message that describes something that =
occurred.  Nothing more.

IMO The trust relationship should not be part of the data profile.

Maybe the trust profile is a separate document?  But right now it seems =
better suited to the Stream systems assuming there are a relatively =
limited number of trust relationships.

The composition that you propose I believe leads us down the road to a =
combinations and permutations problem that will be un-implementable in =
practice because every implementer has to implement every trust profile, =
every set token format and every transfer method.

I think this issue is foundational.  Going the wrong way completely =
undermines the value of having SETEVENTs.  We might as well each go our =
own way using JWT only.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:50 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks, John.
> =20
> The good news about key metadata in the IETF is that we=E2=80=99re =
nearly done with standardizing the jwks_uri pattern in the IETF, per =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-discovery-06#section-2 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Ddiscovery-2D06-23section-2D2&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D71IomwJu9KQH3fBWBt8nHYVE3hpaH3anjMx9qFoBNTg&s=3DzKoyTqrkK=
rUrPYiKYVikjBwu5wlXy5un9Tsw-iSwQpI&e=3D>.  (It=E2=80=99s currently =
waiting for the AD write-up from EKR.)
> =20
> Phil, I believe that all the statements in the new =E2=80=9CRequirements=
 for SET Profiles=E2=80=9D section are demonstrably true and add no new =
requirements.  They are there to make requirements that were already =
implicit explicit.  Phil, if you believe that any of the sentences in =
the section are false, please call them out explicitly and say why =
they=E2=80=99re false.  If one or more of them are false, I=E2=80=99ll =
obviously clarify or redact those, while leaving the rest in place as =
guidance to users of the spec.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ll point out that even if a profile decided to delegate its =
key management to a transport, as you=E2=80=99re advocating, Phil, the =
profile would still need to explicitly say that.  It wouldn=E2=80=99t be =
a complete or usable profile if it didn=E2=80=99t define how to retrieve =
the keys used to validate the JWT.  So your proposal is one way of a =
profile satisfying the requirement =E2=80=9CPossibly most important is =
defining the procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain =
the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic =
operations used in the JWT representing the SET.=E2=80=9D  Given that =
your proposal is a way to satisfy this requirement, I don=E2=80=99t see =
any grounds for you to oppose it.  In fact, I believe it argues that you =
should support it.
> =20
> Saying nothing about the semantic requirements is doing no one any =
favors.
> =20
>                                                                 Thanks =
all,
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> From: John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:37 AM
> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
> =20
> I agree on exp.
> =20
> I think defining trust relationships should be in the profiles as they =
may be quite different.
> =20
> That is why mixing events in the same message will be a problem.  I =
thought we agreed on that.
> =20
> Trying to define a fixed trust relationship for the transport is =
likely going to cause people to roll there own.
> =20
> Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see diffrences =
in registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS and other =
regulations.
> =20
> One size fits all is great if you are the one size. =20
> =20
> I do think we should encourage people to use JWKS URI discovers from =
issuer meta-data based on the issuers well-known as a pattern that has =
proven to be repeatable.=20
> =20
> It would be nice if we had those specs done in the IETF:)
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> =20
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I agree on the exp part.=20
> =20
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
> =20
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues =
if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
> =20
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are =
manages because the network relationship may define the requirements =
rather than the data.=20
> =20
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and =
valid interpretation.=20
>=20
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20
> =20
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

> =20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
> =20
> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
> =20
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a =
standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> Hi folks,
> =20
> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
> =20
> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
> =20
> The second adds the following new section:
> =20
> Requirements for SET Profiles
> =20
> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
> =20
> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
> =20
> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient =
of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is =
both syntactically and semantically valid.=20
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
> =20
> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
> =20
>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">A SET Profile is just a data message that describes something =
that occurred. &nbsp;Nothing more.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">IMO The trust relationship should not =
be part of the data profile.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Maybe the trust profile is a separate =
document? &nbsp;But right now it seems better suited to the Stream =
systems assuming there are a relatively limited number of trust =
relationships.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The composition that you propose I believe leads us down the =
road to a combinations and permutations problem that will be =
un-implementable in practice because every implementer has to implement =
every trust profile, every set token format and every transfer =
method.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think this issue is foundational. &nbsp;Going the wrong way completely =
undermines the value of having SETEVENTs. &nbsp;We might as well each go =
our own way using JWT only.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:50 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks, =
John.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The good =
news about key metadata in the IETF is that we=E2=80=99re nearly done =
with standardizing the jwks_uri pattern in the IETF, per<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Ddiscovery-2D06-23section-2D2&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugC=
H0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D71IomwJu9KQH3fBWBt8nHYVE3hpaH3anjM=
x9qFoBNTg&amp;s=3DzKoyTqrkKrUrPYiKYVikjBwu5wlXy5un9Tsw-iSwQpI&amp;e=3D" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-discovery-06#secti=
on-2</a>.&nbsp; (It=E2=80=99s currently waiting for the AD write-up from =
EKR.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Phil, I =
believe that all the statements in the new =E2=80=9CRequirements for SET =
Profiles=E2=80=9D section are demonstrably true and add no new =
requirements.&nbsp; They are there to make requirements that were =
already implicit explicit.&nbsp; Phil, if you believe that any of the =
sentences in the section are false, please call them out explicitly and =
say why they=E2=80=99re false.&nbsp; If one or more of them are false, =
I=E2=80=99ll obviously clarify or redact those, while leaving the rest =
in place as guidance to users of the spec.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll =
point out that even if a profile decided to delegate its key management =
to a transport, as you=E2=80=99re advocating, Phil, the profile would =
still need to explicitly say that. &nbsp;It wouldn=E2=80=99t be a =
complete or usable profile if it didn=E2=80=99t define how to retrieve =
the keys used to validate the JWT.&nbsp; So your proposal is one way of =
a profile satisfying the requirement =E2=80=9C</span><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Possibly most important is defining the procedures used to =
validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer =
that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing =
the SET.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D=
&nbsp; Given that your proposal is a way to satisfy this requirement, I =
don=E2=80=99t see any grounds for you to oppose it.&nbsp; In fact, I =
believe it argues that you should support it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Saying =
nothing about the semantic requirements is doing no one any favors.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>John Bradley [<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, June 29, 2017 =
10:37 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Heads-up =
about SET spec updates<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree on exp.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think defining trust relationships =
should be in the profiles as they may be quite different.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That is why mixing events in the same =
message will be a problem. &nbsp;I thought we agreed on that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Trying to define a fixed trust =
relationship for the transport is likely going to cause people to roll =
there own.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see =
diffrences in registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS =
and other regulations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">One size fits all is great if you are the one size. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I do think we should encourage people to use JWKS URI =
discovers from issuer meta-data based on the issuers well-known as a =
pattern that has proven to be repeatable.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It would be nice if we had those specs =
done in the IETF:)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 =
PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree on the exp =
part.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regarding the second =
part. I would like to see more discussion.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For example, in the the =
use cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles =
cannot be sent over the same stream.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Such profiles should =
avoid things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration =
regarding how they are transferred. &nbsp;Also key management might be =
better tied up in how the streams are manages because the network =
relationship may define the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My initial reaction is, =
the profiles should stick to the data and valid interpretation.&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the group agrees I will merge the exp and =
post over the weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I can merge the second =
part if there is a strong agreement to do so.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, =
William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; text-align: start; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very =
happy with the change regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the =
best resolution to the "ID Token" confusion concern.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">By making the "exp" =
claim that is<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">already</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the =
current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET =
uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs =
to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for =
its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which =
other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest =
to do<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The benefit the =
community will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard way to =
express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" partitioning =
required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way that =
retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability =
goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi folks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current =
editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET =
confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by =
the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID =
Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token =
validation code.&nbsp; Note that this solution is already recommended in =
the specification.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this =
solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a simple and durable solution to =
the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been =
the subject of much discussion since.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The second adds the following new section:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Requirements for SET =
Profiles</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define =
the syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and =
rules for validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling =
specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by =
SETs utilizing the profile.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Defining the =
semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is equally =
important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used to =
validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer =
that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing =
the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for =
retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">iss</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">claim value as its =
input.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly =
specify the steps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST =
perform to validate that the SET is both syntactically and semantically =
valid.<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s included to =
inform profile writers about what they must do to be able to use SETs =
securely.&nbsp; While much of the discussion as of late has been about =
syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considered by =
profile writers and deployers.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 believe that the new section contains only statements that are already =
factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.&nbsp; =
The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.&nbsp; =
Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; =
text-align: start; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 12:25:07 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Hi Phil

wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on
behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of
discussion going on now would you not agree?

I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a clear
reference point for discussion there and then.

Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am
I missing something?

Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus when
you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?



On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> I agree on the exp part.
>
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if
> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption
> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages because
> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the data=
.
>
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid
> interpretation.
>
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "=
ID
> Token" confusion concern.
>
> By making the "exp" claim that is already
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_evk=
lX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two
> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to =
be
> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificatio=
n,
> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
> interest to do
>
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss=
"
> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way
> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability
> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the curren=
t
>> editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>
>>
>>
>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens
>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID
>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in the
>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution ma=
ndatory.
>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to
>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>> discussion since.
>>
>>
>>
>> The second adds the following new section:
>>
>>
>>
>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>
>>
>>
>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs
>> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The
>> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and even=
t
>> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>
>>
>>
>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profil=
e
>> is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures
>> used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the
>> issuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT
>> representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorith=
m
>> for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as
>> its input.
>>
>>
>>
>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient o=
f
>> a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is bo=
th
>> syntactically and semantically valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do =
to be
>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has
>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considere=
d
>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are already
>> factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The
>> editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on h=
ow to make
>> these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                 Best
>> wishes,
>>
>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-
> CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-
> nFaqUxKQ&e=3D
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>


--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
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--f403045e8e566aa2f105531e4394
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>wrt asking for more discussion,=
 I appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It does se=
em there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on now would you not ag=
ree?</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d like to get the doc updated in time f=
or Prague so that we have a clear reference point for discussion there and =
then.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Unclear why you would post a change whe=
n it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing something?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consens=
us when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?</di=
v><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree on the exp part.=C2=A0</div><div id=
=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-24679=
99192159738290AppleMailSignature">Regarding the second part. I would like t=
o see more discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMai=
lSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">=
For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if dif=
ferent set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=C2=A0</div><div id=
=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-24679=
99192159738290AppleMailSignature">Such profiles should avoid things like re=
quiring signing and encryption without consideration regarding how they are=
 transferred.=C2=A0 Also key management might be better tied up in how the =
streams are manages because the network relationship may define the require=
ments rather than the data.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290App=
leMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignat=
ure">My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and vali=
d interpretation.=C2=A0<br><br>If the group agrees I will merge the exp and=
 post over the weekend.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"=
>I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=C2=A0=
</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div i=
d=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_-2=
467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"h5">=
<div><br>On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you=
 Mike for working on this. I&#39;m very happy with the change regarding the=
 &quot;exp&quot; claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the &quot;=
ID Token&quot; confusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the &q=
uot;exp&quot; claim that is <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01=
-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994=
zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6f=
Zc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in t=
he current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniquenes=
s guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used wi=
th a common issuer. This also allows &quot;sub&quot; to be used for its int=
ended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other wor=
king groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do</div>=
<div><br></div><div>The benefit the community will gain from the SET standa=
rd overall is a standard way to express events that won&#39;t conflict with=
 ID Token (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioning required). With Mike&#39;s chang=
es we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original simplicity, exte=
nsibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT&#3=
9;s standard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-2467999192159738290m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec u=
pdates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confus=
ion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.=C2=
=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The edit=
or=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provide=
s a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><a><span style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none=
">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax =
and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validati=
ng those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SET=
s utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is de=
fining the procedures used to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s=
 keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courie=
r New&quot;;color:black">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"> claim value as=
 its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:black">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the st=
eps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to valida=
te that the SET is both syntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers abou=
t what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much of th=
e discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally importa=
nt, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only stateme=
nts that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previous=
ly unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements expl=
icit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>_______=
_______________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Id-event mail=
ing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
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vWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-<wbr>nFaqUxKQ&amp;e=3D</a> </span><br></div></blockquote>=
</div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
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><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"htt=
p://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn abou=
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Dick,

The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been any =
(or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It =
certainly came to me as a surprise.

I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not =
belong here at all.

Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Phil
>=20
> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion =
on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of =
discussion going on now would you not agree?
>=20
> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a =
clear reference point for discussion there and then.
>=20
> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this =
work. Am I missing something?
>=20
> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus =
when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> I agree on the exp part.=20
>=20
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
>=20
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues =
if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
>=20
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are =
manages because the network relationship may define the requirements =
rather than the data.=20
>=20
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and =
valid interpretation.=20
>=20
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20
>=20
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
>>=20
>> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
>>=20
>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is =
a standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The second adds the following new section:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Requirements for SET Profiles <>
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>> =20
>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.
>> =20
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>>=20
>>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> =
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>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Dick,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The section is a brand new section. It =
seems to me that has not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant =
putting it in the document. &nbsp;It certainly came to me as a =
surprise.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed. &nbsp;It may not =
belong here at all.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Please advise. &nbsp;Do you want it posted in spite of =
consensus?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hi Phil<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">wrt=
 asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on =
behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of =
discussion going on now would you not agree?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'd like to get the doc updated in time =
for Prague so that we have a clear reference point for discussion there =
and then.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did =
this work. Am I missing something?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Mike: would you update the doc with =
what you think is rough consensus when you have time so that we can have =
a crisp discussion in Prague?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I agree on the exp part.&nbsp;</div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">Regarding the second part. I would like to see more =
discussion.&nbsp;</div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility =
issues if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same =
stream.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">Such profiles =
should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption without =
consideration regarding how they are transferred.&nbsp; Also key =
management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages =
because the network relationship may define the requirements rather than =
the data.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">My initial =
reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid =
interpretation.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the group agrees I =
will merge the exp and post over the weekend.&nbsp;</div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to =
do so.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">Thanks!</div><div =
id=3D"m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thank you Mike for working on =
this. I'm very happy with the change regarding the "exp" claim, and =
believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" confusion =
concern.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">By =
making the "exp" claim that is <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to =
do</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The benefit =
the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard way =
to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" =
partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a =
way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_-2467999192159738290m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec =
updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are =
published.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET =
confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by =
the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID =
Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note =
that this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; =
The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; =
This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much =
discussion since.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a class=3D""><span style=3D"text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define the =
syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules =
for validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used =
by SETs utilizing the profile.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for =
SETs utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most important =
is defining the procedures used to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used =
for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For =
instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET =
issuer's keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""> claim value as its =
input.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the =
steps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to =
validate that the SET is both syntactically and semantically
 valid. <u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers =
about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While =
much of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is =
equally important, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only =
statements that are already factually accurate requirements but that =
were previously unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these =
requirements explicit.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 20:51:00 +0000
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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>,  "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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I understand it is new and that there is contention.

We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think having
it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive at
consensus or an alternative.

So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Dick,
>
> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been any
> (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It
> certainly came to me as a surprise.
>
> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not belon=
g
> here at all.
>
> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil
>
> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on
> behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of
> discussion going on now would you not agree?
>
> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a clea=
r
> reference point for discussion there and then.
>
> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work.
> Am I missing something?
>
> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus whe=
n
> you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I agree on the exp part.
>>
>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>>
>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if
>> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>>
>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption
>> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
>> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages becaus=
e
>> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the dat=
a.
>>
>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid
>> interpretation.
>>
>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>>
>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
>> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID
>> Token" confusion concern.
>>
>> By making the "exp" claim that is already
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_ev=
klX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
>> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two
>> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to=
 be
>> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificati=
on,
>> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
>> interest to do
>>
>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
>> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "is=
s"
>> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a wa=
y
>> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability
>> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the
>>> current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim=
 when ID Tokens
>>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID
>>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in the
>>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution m=
andatory.
>>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to
>>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>>> discussion since.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs
>>> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The
>>> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and eve=
nt
>>> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the
>>> profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the
>>> procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys
>>> controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations us=
ed
>>> in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define=
 an
>>> algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim
>>> value as its input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient
>>> of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET i=
s
>>> both syntactically and semantically valid.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do=
 to be
>>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has
>>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be consider=
ed
>>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are alread=
y
>>> factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The
>>> editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on =
how to make
>>> these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                                 Best
>>> wishes,
>>>
>>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-=
CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUxK=
Q&e=3D
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZ=
tYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgBN=
GE&e=3D>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
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--94eb2c05df90e6dd5005531f7570
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand it is new and that there is contention.=
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We clearly want c=
onsensus for us to be done with the draft. I think having it in the next dr=
aft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive at consensus or an =
alternative.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So ye=
s, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div=
>Dick,</div><div><br></div><div>The section is a brand new section. It seem=
s to me that has not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it=
 in the document.=C2=A0 It certainly came to me as a surprise.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.=C2=A0 =
It may not belong here at all.</div><div><br></div><div>Please advise.=C2=
=A0 Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?</div><div><br></div><div><=
/div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde=
nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-w=
ord"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;wor=
d-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span cla=
ss=3D"m_-728612727579820142Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separ=
ate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identi=
ty Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div>@independentid</div><=
div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independ=
entid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-728612727579820142Apple-interchange-newline"></=
blockquote></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>wrt asking f=
or more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the=
 chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on n=
ow would you not agree?</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d like to get the do=
c updated in time for Prague so that we have a clear reference point for di=
scussion there and then.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Unclear why you woul=
d post a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing something=
?</div><div><br></div><div>Mike: would you update the doc with what you thi=
nk is rough consensus when you have time so that we can have a crisp discus=
sion in Prague?</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:3=
8 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree on the exp part.=C2=A0</div=
><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">=
<br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSi=
gnature">Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=C2=
=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290App=
leMailSignature">For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibil=
ity issues if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=
=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMail=
Signature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290=
AppleMailSignature">Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signin=
g and encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.=
=C2=A0 Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are m=
anages because the network relationship may define the requirements rather =
than the data.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-24679991921597=
38290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-24679=
99192159738290AppleMailSignature">My initial reaction is, the profiles shou=
ld stick to the data and valid interpretation.=C2=A0<br><br>If the group ag=
rees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"=
m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">I c=
an merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=C2=A0</di=
v><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"=
><br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailS=
ignature">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-24679991921597382=
90AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_-72861272757982014=
2h5"><div><br>On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>Thank you Mike f=
or working on this. I&#39;m very happy with the change regarding the &quot;=
exp&quot; claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the &quot;ID Toke=
n&quot; confusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the &quot;exp=
&quot; claim that is <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23sec=
tion-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_A=
eS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJI=
XL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the cur=
rent draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guar=
antee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a c=
ommon issuer. This also allows &quot;sub&quot; to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other working g=
roups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do</div><div><=
br></div><div>The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard ove=
rall is a standard way to express events that won&#39;t conflict with ID To=
ken (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioning required). With Mike&#39;s changes we =
achieve that, and in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibil=
ity and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT&#39;s st=
andard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <span>&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael=
.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290m_-101469310277019=
2708WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to =
give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=
=99s draft before they are published.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the pote=
ntial ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a=
 top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generat=
ed by the same issuer.=C2=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID=
 Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The edit=
or=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provide=
s a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
a><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span>=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:2=
4.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs conf=
orming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax =
defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">D=
efining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is=
 equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used=
 to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s=
 keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Ve=
rdana,sans-serif"> claim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left=
:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a =
SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both sy=
ntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers=
 about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much =
of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally im=
portant, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statem=
ents that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previou=
sly unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements exp=
licit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Agenda request for IETF 99 Prague
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/eGYuBkAUnWGQ8FG38S5DwtW0y_Q>
Subject: [Id-event] Agenda request for IETF 99 Prague
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Dear chairs,

I'd like 20-30 minutes to discuss the status of draft-ietf-secevent-token a=
nd next steps for it.

                                                                Thanks,
                                                                -- Mike


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear chairs,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;d like 20-30 minutes to discuss the status o=
f draft-ietf-secevent-token and next steps for it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Ok.=20

I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision over=
 the weekend.=20

Phil

> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I understand it is new and that there is contention.=20
>=20
> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think having=
 it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive at=
 consensus or an alternative.=20
>=20
> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=20
>=20
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>> Dick,
>>=20
>> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been any (=
or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It certainly c=
ame to me as a surprise.
>>=20
>> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not belon=
g here at all.
>>=20
>> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>=20
>>> Hi Phil
>>>=20
>>> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion o=
n behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of discuss=
ion going on now would you not agree?
>>>=20
>>> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a cle=
ar reference point for discussion there and then.
>>>=20
>>> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work.=
 Am I missing something?
>>>=20
>>> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus wh=
en you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>=
 wrote:
>>>> I agree on the exp part.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if=
 different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption=
 without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key managem=
ent might be better tied up in how the streams are manages because the netwo=
rk relationship may define the requirements rather than the data.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid=
 interpretation.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wro=
te:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change reg=
arding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Tok=
en" confusion concern.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> By making the "exp" claim that is already NOT RECOMMENDED in the curre=
nt draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarant=
ee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a commo=
n issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended purpose (as def=
ined by RFC7519) without modification, which other working groups that wish t=
o profile SET have expressed an interest to do
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a=
 standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" p=
artitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way tha=
t retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals o=
f SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the cur=
rent editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by re=
quiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when I=
D Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by exi=
sting ID Token validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommen=
ded in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solu=
tion mandatory.  This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem w=
e agreed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of muc=
h discussion since.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SE=
Ts conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The s=
yntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and event pay=
load values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the pro=
file is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedure=
s used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the i=
ssuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT representi=
ng the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrievi=
ng the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as its input.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipien=
t of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is b=
oth syntactically and semantically valid.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must d=
o to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late h=
as been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considered=
 by profile writers and deployers.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are alre=
ady factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The e=
ditor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on how to=
 make these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                                                                 Best w=
ishes,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                                                                 -- Mi=
ke
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
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&e=3D=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am workin=
g on!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>=20
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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=3D=20
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am working o=
n!

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I spoke with Mike and he wi=
ll post his changes to SET in a new revision over the weekend.&nbsp;</div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Phil</=
div><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
ick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand it is new and t=
hat there is contention.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think ha=
ving it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arriv=
e at consensus or an alternative.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.&nbsp;</=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phi=
l Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div>Dick,</div><div><br></div><div>The section is a brand new sect=
ion. It seems to me that has not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant=
 putting it in the document.&nbsp; It certainly came to me as a surprise.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>I think the issue of trust model needs to be discusse=
d.&nbsp; It may not belong here at all.</div><div><br></div><div>Please advi=
se.&nbsp; Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?</div><div><br></div><=
div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-=
word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-72861272757=
9820142Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:norma=
l;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phi=
l</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archi=
tect &amp; Standards</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DD=
wMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKu=
gCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_=
VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:</div><br class=3D"m_-728612727579820142Apple-interchange-newline"></bloc=
kquote></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>wrt asking for mor=
e discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs=
. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on now would=
 you not agree?</div><div><br></div><div>I'd like to get the doc updated in t=
ime for Prague so that we have a clear reference point for discussion there a=
nd then.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Unclear why you would post a change w=
hen it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing something?</div><div><br></=
div><div>Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consens=
us when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?</div=
><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <s=
pan>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@=
oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div>I agree on the exp part.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820=
142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-7286127=
27579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Regarding the second pa=
rt. I would like to see more discussion.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-7286127275=
79820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-72=
8612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">For example, in th=
e the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles=
 cannot be sent over the same stream.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-7286127275798=
20142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-72861=
2727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Such profiles should a=
void things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration rega=
rding how they are transferred.&nbsp; Also key management might be better ti=
ed up in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may de=
fine the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-7286127=
27579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_=
-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">My initial reac=
tion is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid interpretation.&nbs=
p;<br><br>If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend=
.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMail=
Signature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290A=
ppleMailSignature">I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreemen=
t to do so.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-246799919215973829=
0AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192=
159738290AppleMailSignature">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_=
-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_-=
728612727579820142h5"><div><br>On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>Tha=
nk you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change regarding th=
e "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" confu=
sion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the "exp" claim that is <a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH=
0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can pr=
ovide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing t=
hese two types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "su=
b" to be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modif=
ication, which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed a=
n interest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the community will gai=
n from the SET standard overall is a standard way to express events that won=
't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" partitioning required). With Mike's chan=
ges we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original simplicity, exte=
nsibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's s=
tandard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <span>&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290m_-1014693102770192=
708WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give y=
ou a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s dra=
ft before they are published.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID T=
oken / SET confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=
=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same i=
ssuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SET=
s would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note that=
 this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The editor=
=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a=
 simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discus=
sion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bo=
ttom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a=
><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0=
pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24=
.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pr=
ofile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs confor=
ming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax def=
ined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by SE=
Ts utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom=
:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24=
.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">De=
fining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is e=
qually important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used to=
 validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for c=
ryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, s=
ome profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys th=
at uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">=
iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans=
-serif"> claim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24=
.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pr=
ofile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a SE=
T utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both synta=
ctically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers a=
bout what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of t=
he discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally importa=
nt, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statemen=
ts that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previously=
 unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explici=
t.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>________=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use case document
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I just submitted the RISC use cases at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00

It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make sure that there is at
least a basic version submitted before the deadline.

I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.

Let me know if anyone else would like to be an author.

Marius


Marius

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in the same document.
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Marius,
>>
>> Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in a
>> separate draft.
>>
>> Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg document.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Here is an initial use case document, for now it has only the RISC use
>> cases we discussed so far. When Phil gets back I will coordinate with hi=
m
>> to add SCIM use cases to this same I-D. I will get this into a decent sh=
ape
>> for the IETF meeting.
>>
>> Marius
>>
>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Whatever works for you - and that's the whole point of *individual*
>>> I-Ds.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>     Yaron
>>>
>>> On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>
>>> Do we need one document for all use cases (all profiles) or one for eac=
h
>>> profiles?
>>>
>>> I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC (if one per
>>> profile).
>>>
>>> Marius
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My strong preference would be an individual I-D that (as Justin says)
>>>> will NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D at all? Because this is what IET=
F
>>>> folks are used to, and it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes=
.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>     Yaron
>>>>
>>>> On 04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to ask that we *not* push a use cases docum=
ent
>>>> toward RFC. Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding develop=
ment,
>>>> but should be discarded as artifacts of that process once said process=
 is
>>>> completed (or even well on its way).
>>>>
>>>> As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything referenced from the list an=
d
>>>> easily findable works.
>>>>
>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>
>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As the more experienced chair, I will defer to Yaron for guidance.
>>>>
>>>> So far no one has expected it to be adopted as an RFC
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>>
>>>>> Depends on what the WG wants.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email cases,
>>>>> Github posted document,
>>>>> Individual IDs posted to the working group, or
>>>>> an ID that gets adopted as a WG draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE has
>>>>> RFC7165, and SCIM itself had RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases-03
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.or=
g_html_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640u=
MNo_o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&e=3D>
>>>>> ).
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us know what form and what format.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can also use one for OpenID Backchannel Logout.  This is
>>>>> particularly important because it will be triggered by (or is related=
 to)
>>>>> SCIM and by RISC events such as account resets, authentication factor
>>>>> changes etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
tid.com_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm=
5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS=
6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=3D5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA&e=3D>
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> per
>>>>>
>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKe
>>>>> q2OjEBjCZ9cBcI
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.i=
etf.org_arch_msg_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=3DebhqgdwBfm=
clFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>> you offered to put them in a WG doc (see quate below). Would that not
>>>>> be an ID. Also, as I read over the document, it is hard to follow wha=
t the
>>>>> use cases are as it is very verbose.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> <p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com&gt>; wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > All,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is the=
 SCIM
>>>>> > case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr
>>>>> ote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding was you wanted informal cases not IDs. The SCIM
>>>>>> cases have been posted to the mailing list. I believe Marius is clos=
e on
>>>>>> the RISC cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independe=
ntid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm=
5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF=
4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=3DnBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&e=3D>
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil / Marius
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the Chicago meeting, the two of you agreed to work on a document
>>>>>> containing use cases you considered to be relevant for secevent so t=
hat the
>>>>>> WG could decide which ones were in scope and which ones were out of =
scope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Checking in on the status of the use case document. Would you provid=
e
>>>>>> an update when you have a chance?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DHWdy4Q9fHAYB3f-DZ2GWUJnaZDGcZQRaMexC2oHuR7g
>>>>>> &s=3DJTwCxbXPzY_A62IiywTMIjRB-XsMY8UPafBs4oPwOTc&e=3D
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_=
&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8=
BOy4Q&s=3DuVstd9R0_1UCdJ6s_rcX7xhYo6fyGuk22APkiwL0vpI&e=3D>
>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q
>>>>> &s=3DfzkXYKa7l9vPc2VrpDeaBZo7bH9cDrk9wUethVbuCS8&e=3D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&=
d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugC=
H0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yD=
o0vk&s=3DvljaqeEQFcDwsi_zNO5R2uecLv2B3VE8QvdEVBRHIGI&e=3D>
>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr=
86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=3Dt5e3IvZ_e-KRHUBVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-6Okkg=
mSjo&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.txt>
>>
>> <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.pdf>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0v
>> k&s=3Dt5e3IvZ_e-KRHUBVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-6OkkgmSjo&e=3D
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>

--001a114495b6ff45e8055321daee
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I just submitted the RISC use cases at:<div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00">https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00</a><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make su=
re that there is at least a basic version submitted before the deadline.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Let me know if anyone else would like to be an author=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Marius</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smar=
tmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in =
the same document.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><span class=3D"">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><div><div class=3D"=
h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Marius,</div><div=
 id=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSignature"><br></=
div><div id=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSignature=
">Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in a =
separate draft.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-12813169398763=
95491AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-128131=
6939876395491AppleMailSignature">Afaik there is no plan to have this he a s=
ingle wg document.=C2=A0<br><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_640669497799=
861768h5"><div><br>On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Here is an initial use case document, for now it has only the RISC use cas=
es we discussed so far. When Phil gets back I will coordinate with him to a=
dd SCIM use cases to this same I-D. I will get this into a decent shape for=
 the IETF meeting.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><=
div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491gmail_signature" dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheff=
er <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Whatever works for you - and that&#39;s the whole point of
      *individual* I-Ds. </p>
    <p>Thanks,</p>
    <p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<br>
    </p><div><div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491h5">
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626=
933606moz-cite-prefix">On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Do we need one document for all use cases (all
        profiles) or one for each profiles?
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC
          (if one per profile).</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
        <div>
          <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288=
484626933606gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div=
>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron
          Sheffer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
              <p>My strong preference would be an individual I-D that
                (as Justin says) will NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D
                at all? Because this is what IETF folks are used to, and
                it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.</p>
              <p>Thanks,</p>
              <p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<br>
              </p>
              <div>
                <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4=
432288484626933606h5"> <br>
                  <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m=
_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237moz-cite-prefix">On
                    04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type=3D"cite"> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to =
ask
                    that we *not* push a use cases document toward RFC.
                    Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding
                    development, but should be discarded as artifacts of
                    that process once said process is completed (or even
                    well on its way).
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything
                      referenced from the list and easily findable
                      works.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div>
                    <div><br>
                      <div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                          <div>On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt
                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:</div>
                          <br class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876=
395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-interchange-newline">
                          <div>
                            <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">As
                              the more experienced chair, I will defer
                              to Yaron for guidance.
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So far no one has expected it to be
                                adopted as an RFC</div>
                            </div>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
                              <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 3,
                                2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt<span class=3D"m_=
640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910217210=
6198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt=
;</span><span class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44322884=
84626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>=
ote:<br>
                                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
                                    <div>Depends on what the WG wants.</div=
>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Email cases,</div>
                                    <div>Github posted document,</div>
                                    <div>Individual IDs posted to the
                                      working group, or</div>
                                    <div>an ID that gets adopted as a WG
                                      draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE
                                      has RFC7165, and SCIM itself had
                                      RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft<span cl=
ass=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96=
9102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf=
-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx=
BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp=
;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640=
uMNo_o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/h<wbr>tml/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases<wbr>-03</a>).</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Let us know what form and what
                                      format.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>We can also use one for OpenID
                                      Backchannel Logout.=C2=A0 This is
                                      particularly important because it
                                      will be triggered by (or is
                                      related to) SCIM and by RISC
                                      events such as account resets,
                                      authentication factor changes etc.</d=
iv>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><span>
                                        <div>
                                          <div style=3D"letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                            <div style=3D"letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                              <div style=3D"letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                <div style=3D"letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                  <div style=3D"letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                    <div style=3D"letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                      <div style=3D"letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                        <div style=3D"lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div><span class=
=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910=
2172106198237m_1390506685430850822Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collaps=
e:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                          <div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Phil</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independent=
id</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com_=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWn=
R-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3D5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <br>
                                      </span>
                                      <div>
                                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                          <div>
                                            <div class=3D"m_640669497799861=
768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237h5">
                                              <div>On May 3, 2017, at
                                                4:31 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;
                                                wrote:</div>
                                              <br class=3D"m_64066949779986=
1768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237m_13905=
06685430850822Apple-interchange-newline">
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div class=3D"m_6406694977998=
61768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237h5">
                                                <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>per=C2=A0</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><a href=3D"https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.ietf.org_arch_msg=
_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3Debhqgd=
wBfmclFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://m=
ailarchive.ietf.org/a<wbr>rch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKe<wbr>q2OjEBjCZ9cBcI=
</a><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>you offered to
                                                    put them in a WG doc
                                                    (see quate below).
                                                    Would that not be an
                                                    ID. Also, as I read
                                                    over the document,
                                                    it is hard to follow
                                                    what the use cases
                                                    are as it is very
                                                    verbose.</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <pre class=3D"m_6406694=
97799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237=
m_1390506685430850822gmail-wordwrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;overflo=
w:auto;font-family:menlo,monaco,consolas,&#39;courier new&#39;,monospace;fo=
nt-size:13px;padding:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:1.42=
857;word-break:normal;word-wrap:normal;color:rgb(51,51,51);border:0px none =
black;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-=
right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;white-space:pre-wrap">On Tue=
, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com&amp;gt" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;c=
olor:rgb(51,122,183)" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt;</a>; wrote=
:

&gt; All,
&gt;
&gt; Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is the SC=
IM
&gt; case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.</pre>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br>
                                                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">On
                                                    Wed, May 3, 2017 at
                                                    4:16 PM, Phil Hunt<span=
 class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_=
-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-12813169398763954=
91m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span>wr<wbr>ote:<br>
                                                    <blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                      <div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word">My
                                                        understanding
                                                        was you wanted
                                                        informal cases
                                                        not IDs. The
                                                        SCIM cases have
                                                        been posted to
                                                        the mailing
                                                        list. I believe
                                                        Marius is close
                                                        on the RISC
                                                        cases.
                                                        <div><br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>Phil</div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_640=
669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910217210619=
8237m_1390506685430850822m_8393468895938290301Apple-style-span" style=3D"bo=
rder-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                          <div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independent=
id</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&=
amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM=
36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3DnBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&am=
p;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote type=
=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div class=3D"m_6=
40669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106=
198237m_1390506685430850822h5">
                                                          <div>On May 3,
                                                          2017, at 3:56
                                                          PM, Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          <br class=3D"m_64=
0669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-9691021721061=
98237m_1390506685430850822m_8393468895938290301Apple-interchange-newline">
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div class=3D"m_6=
40669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106=
198237m_1390506685430850822h5">
                                                          <div dir=3D"ltr">=
Phil
                                                          / Marius
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>At the
                                                          Chicago
                                                          meeting, the
                                                          two of you
                                                          agreed to work
                                                          on a document
                                                          containing use
                                                          cases you
                                                          considered to
                                                          be relevant
                                                          for secevent
                                                          so that the WG
                                                          could decide
                                                          which ones
                                                          were in scope
                                                          and which ones
                                                          were out of
                                                          scope.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Checking
                                                          in on the
                                                          status of the
                                                          use case
                                                          document.
                                                          Would you
                                                          provide an
                                                          update when
                                                          you have a
                                                          chance?</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>/Dick<br cle=
ar=3D"all">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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68m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-con=
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                                                  <br clear=3D"all">
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  --<span class=3D"m_640669=
497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910217210619823=
7Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>
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                              --<span class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-12813=
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From: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 00:01:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim
requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.
Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the
existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would like
to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.

Nat

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Ok.
>
> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision
> over the weekend.
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I understand it is new and that there is contention.
>
> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think havin=
g
> it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive =
at
> consensus or an alternative.
>
> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Dick,
>>
>> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been any
>> (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It
>> certainly came to me as a surprise.
>>
>> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not
>> belong here at all.
>>
>> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_=
VGJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Phil
>>
>> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion o=
n
>> behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of
>> discussion going on now would you not agree?
>>
>> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a
>> clear reference point for discussion there and then.
>>
>> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work.
>> Am I missing something?
>>
>> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus
>> when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree on the exp part.
>>>
>>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>>>
>>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if
>>> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>>>
>>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption
>>> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
>>> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages becau=
se
>>> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the da=
ta.
>>>
>>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid
>>> interpretation.
>>>
>>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>>>
>>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
>>> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the=
 "ID
>>> Token" confusion concern.
>>>
>>> By making the "exp" claim that is already
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_=
html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>>> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
>>> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two
>>> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" t=
o be
>>> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificat=
ion,
>>> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
>>> interest to do
>>>
>>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
>>> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "i=
ss"
>>> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a w=
ay
>>> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizabilit=
y
>>> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the
>>>> current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>>>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D clai=
m when ID Tokens
>>>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D is a required ID
>>>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>>>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in th=
e
>>>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution =
mandatory.
>>>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed t=
o
>>>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>>>> discussion since.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SET=
s
>>>> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. Th=
e
>>>> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and ev=
ent
>>>> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the
>>>> profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the
>>>> procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys
>>>> controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations u=
sed
>>>> in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may defin=
e an
>>>> algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim
>>>> value as its input.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient
>>>> of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET =
is
>>>> both syntactically and semantically valid.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must d=
o to be
>>>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late ha=
s
>>>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be conside=
red
>>>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are
>>>> already factually accurate requirements but that were previously unsta=
ted.
>>>> The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedbac=
k on how to
>>>> make these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                                                                 Best
>>>> wishes,
>>>>
>>>>                                                                 -- Mik=
e
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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--=20

Nat Sakimura

Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation

--001a1144dfa04646d90553221e9c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Sorry for a tardy reply, but=C2=A0+1 for the both changes.=
 &#39;exp&#39; claim requirement is a good practical step with a backward c=
ompatibility.=C2=A0<div>Having said that, I believe inferring message types=
 from the existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I w=
ould like to see an explicit typing through &quot;typ&quot; claim added as =
well.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Nat</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok.=C2=A0=
</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=
=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature">I spoke with Mike and he will =
post his changes to SET in a new revision over the weekend.=C2=A0</div></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><br=
></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature">Phil</div></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D=
"auto">I understand it is new and that there is contention.=C2=A0</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We clearly want consensus for us =
to be done with the draft. I think having it in the next draft anchors the =
discussion so we can discuss and arrive at consensus or an alternative.=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So yes, is like a ne=
w draft posted so we can discuss.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div>On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv>Dick,</div><div><br></div><div>The section is a brand new section. It se=
ems to me that has not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting =
it in the document.=C2=A0 It certainly came to me as a surprise.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.=C2=
=A0 It may not belong here at all.</div><div><br></div><div>Please advise.=
=C2=A0 Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?</div><div><br></div><di=
v></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform=
:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span =
class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div st=
yle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>O=
racle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><=
div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNK=
e4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvF=
sEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.inde=
pendentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt=
@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142Apple-in=
terchange-newline"></blockquote></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>Hi Phil<div><br></=
div><div>wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the sugges=
tion on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of =
discussion going on now would you not agree?</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39=
;d like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a clear r=
eference point for discussion there and then.</div><div><br></div><div><div=
>Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work. A=
m I missing something?</div><div><br></div><div>Mike: would you update the =
doc with what you think is rough consensus when you have time so that we ca=
n have a crisp discussion in Prague?</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.h=
unt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree on the e=
xp part.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_=
-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_581589963660=
2158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Regar=
ding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=C2=A0</div><div =
id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290Apple=
MailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820=
142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">For example, in the the use ca=
ses, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles cannot be =
sent over the same stream.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-72=
8612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=
=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMa=
ilSignature">Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and e=
ncryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.=C2=A0 A=
lso key management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages b=
ecause the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the=
 data.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2=
467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_58158996366021=
58904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">My init=
ial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid interpreta=
tion.=C2=A0<br><br>If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over t=
he weekend.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-72861272757982014=
2m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_581589963=
6602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">I =
can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738=
290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-7286127=
27579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Thanks!</div><div id=
=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-72861=
2727579820142h5"><div><br>On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>Than=
k you Mike for working on this. I&#39;m very happy with the change regardin=
g the &quot;exp&quot; claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the &=
quot;ID Token&quot; confusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making t=
he &quot;exp&quot; claim that is <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken=
-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_=
XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5=
bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED=
 in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniq=
ueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be us=
ed with a common issuer. This also allows &quot;sub&quot; to be used for it=
s intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which othe=
r working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do<=
/div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the community will gain from the SET s=
tandard overall is a standard way to express events that won&#39;t conflict=
 with ID Token (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioning required). With Mike&#39;s =
changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original simplicity,=
 extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of J=
WT&#39;s standard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jo=
nes <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738=
290m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u><=
/u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u></u><u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The f=
irst solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring tha=
t SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens c=
ould also be generated by the same issuer.=C2=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The edit=
or=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provide=
s a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
a><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span>=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:2=
4.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs conf=
orming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax =
defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">D=
efining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is=
 equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used=
 to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s=
 keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Ve=
rdana,sans-serif"> claim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left=
:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a =
SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both sy=
ntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers=
 about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much =
of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally im=
portant, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statem=
ents that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previou=
sly unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements exp=
licit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>_______=
________________________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing l=
ist</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpo=
int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=
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To: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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<individual hat?

+1 to typ claim.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim
> requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.
> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the
> existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would lik=
e
> to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.
>
> Nat
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ok.
>>
>> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision
>> over the weekend.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understand it is new and that there is contention.
>>
>> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think
>> having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and
>> arrive at consensus or an alternative.
>>
>> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dick,
>>>
>>> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been an=
y
>>> (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It
>>> certainly came to me as a surprise.
>>>
>>> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not
>>> belong here at all.
>>>
>>> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5bi=
RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-=
_VGJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil
>>>
>>> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion
>>> on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of
>>> discussion going on now would you not agree?
>>>
>>> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a
>>> clear reference point for discussion there and then.
>>>
>>> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work=
.
>>> Am I missing something?
>>>
>>> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus
>>> when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree on the exp part.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>>>>
>>>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues i=
f
>>>> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>>>>
>>>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryptio=
n
>>>> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
>>>> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages beca=
use
>>>> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the d=
ata.
>>>>
>>>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and vali=
d
>>>> interpretation.
>>>>
>>>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>>>>
>>>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
>>>> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to th=
e "ID
>>>> Token" confusion concern.
>>>>
>>>> By making the "exp" claim that is already
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_=
evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>>>> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
>>>> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these tw=
o
>>>> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" =
to be
>>>> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modifica=
tion,
>>>> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
>>>> interest to do
>>>>
>>>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
>>>> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "=
iss"
>>>> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a =
way
>>>> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizabili=
ty
>>>> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the
>>>>> current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>>>>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D cla=
im when ID Tokens
>>>>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D is a required ID
>>>>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>>>>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in t=
he
>>>>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution=
 mandatory.
>>>>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed =
to
>>>>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>>>>> discussion since.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of
>>>>> SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SE=
Ts.
>>>>> The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims a=
nd
>>>>> event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the
>>>>> profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the
>>>>> procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys
>>>>> controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used
>>>>> in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may defi=
ne an
>>>>> algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss
>>>>> claim value as its input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipien=
t
>>>>> of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET=
 is
>>>>> both syntactically and semantically valid.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be
>>>>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late h=
as
>>>>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be consid=
ered
>>>>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are
>>>>> already factually accurate requirements but that were previously unst=
ated.
>>>>> The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedba=
ck on how to
>>>>> make these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 Best
>>>>> wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 --
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>> nFaqUxKQ&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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> --
>
> Nat Sakimura
>
> Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation
>



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<div dir=3D"ltr">&lt;individual hat?<div><br></div><div>+1 to typ claim.</d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Jun 29, 2017 at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:sakimura@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Sorry for a tardy=
 reply, but=C2=A0+1 for the both changes. &#39;exp&#39; claim requirement i=
s a good practical step with a backward compatibility.=C2=A0<div>Having sai=
d that, I believe inferring message types from the existence/absence of a c=
laim is not a good security practice. I would like to see an explicit typin=
g through &quot;typ&quot; claim added as well.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Nat</div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>=
Ok.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904AppleM=
ailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158=
904AppleMailSignature">I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SE=
T in a new revision over the weekend.=C2=A0</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><d=
iv id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><br=
></div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSigna=
ture">Phil</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 P=
M, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand it is new and that there is conte=
ntion.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We clearly =
want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think having it in the n=
ext draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive at consensus =
or an alternative.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=C2=A0</div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word"><div>Dick,</div><div><br></div><div>The section is a bra=
nd new section. It seems to me that has not been any (or limited) discussio=
n to warrant putting it in the document.=C2=A0 It certainly came to me as a=
 surprise.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the issue of trust model needs =
to be discussed.=C2=A0 It may not belong here at all.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Please advise.=C2=A0 Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?</div>=
<div><br></div><div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><d=
iv><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-=
wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break=
-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-72=
8612727579820142Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-he=
ight:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><d=
iv><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Se=
rvices Architect &amp; Standards</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp=
;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1Up=
CO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0=
LA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div><=
/div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-7286=
12727579820142Apple-interchange-newline"></blockquote></div></div></div><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
div>Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate=
 you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a=
 reasonable amount of discussion going on now would you not agree?</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I&#39;d like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so =
that we have a clear reference point for discussion there and then.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><div>Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike=
 that did this work. Am I missing something?</div><div><br></div><div>Mike:=
 would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus when you h=
ave time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?</div><div><br></=
div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"=
><div>I agree on the exp part.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671=
m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSi=
gnature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_=
-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Regarding the =
second part. I would like to see more discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-=
6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-24679991921=
59738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_58=
15899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignat=
ure">For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues i=
f different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_=
-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-68755404682=
12958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290App=
leMailSignature">Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing a=
nd encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.=C2=
=A0 Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are mana=
ges because the network relationship may define the requirements rather tha=
n the data.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_58158996366021589=
04m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div>=
<div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142=
m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">My initial reaction is, the profi=
les should stick to the data and valid interpretation.=C2=A0<br><br>If the =
group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=C2=A0</div><di=
v id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-=
2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-687554046821=
2958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290Appl=
eMailSignature">I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement =
to do so.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904=
m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_=
-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_-68755404=
68212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290=
AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_-6875540468212958671=
m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142h5"><div><br>On Jun 28, 2017, at =
5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div><div><div>Thank you Mike for working on this. I&#39;m very =
happy with the change regarding the &quot;exp&quot; claim, and believe it i=
s the best resolution to the &quot;ID Token&quot; confusion concern.</div><=
div><br></div><div>By making the &quot;exp&quot; claim that is <a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_d=
raft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&am=
p;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blan=
k">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can prov=
ide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing th=
ese two types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows &qu=
ot;sub&quot; to be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) wi=
thout modification, which other working groups that wish to profile SET hav=
e expressed an interest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the comm=
unity will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard way to express =
events that won&#39;t conflict with ID Token (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioni=
ng required). With Mike&#39;s changes we achieve that, and in a way that re=
tains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of =
SET by not redefining any of JWT&#39;s standard claims.</div><div><br></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Ju=
n 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones=
@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-6875540468212958671m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820=
142m_-2467999192159738290m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SE=
T spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are publis=
hed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion pr=
oblem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D =
claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.=C2=A0 Beca=
use =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The edit=
or=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provide=
s a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
a><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span>=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:2=
4.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs conf=
orming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax =
defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">D=
efining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is=
 equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used=
 to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s=
 keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Ve=
rdana,sans-serif"> claim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left=
:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a =
SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both sy=
ntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers=
 about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much =
of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally im=
portant, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statem=
ents that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previou=
sly unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements exp=
licit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best w=
ishes,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>_______=
_______________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Id-event mail=
ing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing li=
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prGHSPRgxZMhEZ<wbr>uIqTkLTfgBNGE&amp;e=3D</a> <br></div></blockquote></div>=
<br></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div=
 data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfK=
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</div></blockquote></div>______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div></div></div><div data-smar=
tmail=3D"gmail_signature"><p dir=3D"ltr">Nat Sakimura</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation</p>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a114574f41f720a0553222db9--


From nobody Thu Jun 29 17:17:36 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use case document
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/Gn2jWG67-tDiVwIpvi9XzZSJCEQ>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use case document
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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:17:57 -0700
Cc: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
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To: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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+1 to typ claim.=20

Phil

> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim requirem=
ent is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.=20
> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the existence/abs=
ence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would like to see an expl=
icit typing through "typ" claim added as well.=20
>=20
> Nat
>=20
>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr=
ote:
>> Ok.=20
>>=20
>> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision o=
ver the weekend.=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I understand it is new and that there is contention.=20
>>>=20
>>> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think havi=
ng it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive a=
t consensus or an alternative.=20
>>>=20
>>> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>> Dick,
>>>>=20
>>>> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been an=
y (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It certain=
ly came to me as a surprise.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not bel=
ong here at all.
>>>>=20
>>>> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:=

>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion=
 on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of discu=
ssion going on now would you not agree?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a c=
lear reference point for discussion there and then.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this wor=
k. Am I missing something?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus w=
hen you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree on the exp part.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues i=
f different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encrypti=
on without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key manag=
ement might be better tied up in how the streams are manages because the net=
work relationship may define the requirements rather than the data.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and val=
id interpretation.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20=

>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change r=
egarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "ID T=
oken" confusion concern.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> By making the "exp" claim that is already NOT RECOMMENDED in the cur=
rent draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guara=
ntee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a com=
mon issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended purpose (as d=
efined by RFC7519) without modification, which other working groups that wis=
h to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is=
 a standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss=
" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way t=
hat retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goal=
s of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the c=
urrent editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by r=
equiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when I=
D Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by exi=
sting ID Token validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommen=
ded in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solu=
tion mandatory.  This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem w=
e agreed to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of muc=
h discussion since.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of S=
ETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The s=
yntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and event pay=
load values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the p=
rofile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedu=
res used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the=
 issuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT represen=
ting the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrie=
ving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as its input.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipi=
ent of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is=
 both syntactically and semantically  valid.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they mus=
t do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of la=
te has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be consid=
ered by profile writers and deployers.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are al=
ready factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  Th=
e editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on how=
 to make these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                                                                 Bes=
t wishes,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                                                                 -- M=
ike
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
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KQ&e=3D=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am work=
ing on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZt=
YUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgBNGE=
&e=3D=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am workin=
g on!
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> --=20
> Nat Sakimura
>=20
> Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>+1 to typ claim.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil</di=
v><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
akimura@gmail.com">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Sorry for a tardy reply, but&nbsp;+1 f=
or the both changes. 'exp' claim requirement is a good practical step with a=
 backward compatibility.&nbsp;<div>Having said that, I believe inferring mes=
sage types from the existence/absence of a claim is not a good security prac=
tice. I would like to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as we=
ll.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Nat</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok.&nbsp;</div><=
div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_58=
15899636602158904AppleMailSignature">I spoke with Mike and he will post his c=
hanges to SET in a new revision over the weekend.&nbsp;</div></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=
=3D"m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature">Phil</div></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">I understan=
d it is new and that there is contention.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the d=
raft. I think having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can d=
iscuss and arrive at consensus or an alternative.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can d=
iscuss.&nbsp;</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 a=
t 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_=
blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Dick,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been any (=
or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.&nbsp; It certa=
inly came to me as a surprise.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the issue of=
 trust model needs to be discussed.&nbsp; It may not belong here at all.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Please advise.&nbsp; Do you want it posted in spite of=
 consensus?</div><div><br></div><div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div><span class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</=
div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwl=
NKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVv=
FsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.inde=
pendentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:</div><br class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142Apple-interc=
hange-newline"></blockquote></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>Hi Phil<div><br></div><d=
iv>wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on=
 behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of discussi=
on going on now would you not agree?</div><div><br></div><div>I'd like to ge=
t the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a clear reference point=
 for discussion there and then.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Unclear why yo=
u would post a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing some=
thing?</div><div><br></div><div>Mike: would you update the doc with what you=
 think is rough consensus when you have time so that we can have a crisp dis=
cussion in Prague?</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38=
 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree on the exp part.&nbsp;</div><div=
 id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290Apple=
MailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-7286127275798201=
42m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Regarding the second part. I wou=
ld like to see more discussion.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m=
_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290Apple=
MailSignature">For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility=
 issues if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.&nbsp;=
</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-24679991921597=
38290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612=
727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Such profiles should a=
void things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration rega=
rding how they are transferred.&nbsp; Also key management might be better ti=
ed up in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may de=
fine the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_58158996=
36602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><b=
r></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-246799919215=
9738290AppleMailSignature">My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick=
 to the data and valid interpretation.&nbsp;<br><br>If the group agrees I wi=
ll merge the exp and post over the weekend.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_58158996=
36602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><b=
r></div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-246799919215=
9738290AppleMailSignature">I can merge the second part if there is a strong a=
greement to do so.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-72861272757=
9820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5815=
899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature=
">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-24679=
99192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_5815899=
636602158904m_-728612727579820142h5"><div><br>On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, W=
illiam Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">=
wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div><div>Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the cha=
nge regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "=
ID Token" confusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the "exp" cl=
aim that is <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJB=
m5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQp=
sdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D=
" target=3D"_blank">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST N=
OT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desire=
d, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This al=
so allows "sub" to be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) w=
ithout modification, which other working groups that wish to profile SET hav=
e expressed an interest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the commu=
nity will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard way to express ev=
ents that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" partitioning required). Wit=
h Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original sim=
plicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining a=
ny of JWT's standard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike J=
ones <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-24679991921597382=
90m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u=
><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the curr=
ent editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first s=
olves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring that SETs n=
ot include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also=
 be generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a r=
equired ID Token claim, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note that=
 this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The editor=
=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a=
 simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discus=
sion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bo=
ttom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a=
><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0=
pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24=
.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pr=
ofile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs confor=
ming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax def=
ined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by SE=
Ts utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom=
:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24=
.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">De=
fining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is e=
qually important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used to=
 validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for c=
ryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, s=
ome profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys th=
at uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">=
iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans=
-serif"> claim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24=
.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pr=
ofile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a SE=
T utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both synta=
ctically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers a=
bout what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of t=
he discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally importa=
nt, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statemen=
ts that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previously=
 unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explici=
t.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>________=
_______________________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing lis=
t</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-=
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use case document
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Marius

Thanks!

I plan to publish the SCIM cases as well soon.=20

Phil

> On Jun 29, 2017, at 4:42 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> I just submitted the RISC use cases at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00
>=20
> It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make sure that there is at le=
ast a basic version submitted before the deadline.
>=20
> I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.
>=20
> Let me know if anyone else would like to be an author.
>=20
> Marius
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
>> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:=

>> Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in the same document.
>>=20
>>> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>>=20
>>> Marius,
>>>=20
>>> Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in a=
 separate draft.=20
>>>=20
>>> Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg document.=20
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>>> On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Here is an initial use case document, for now it has only the RISC use c=
ases we discussed so far. When Phil gets back I will coordinate with him to a=
dd SCIM use cases to this same I-D. I will get this into a decent shape for t=
he IETF meeting.
>>>>=20
>>>> Marius
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>>>>> Whatever works for you - and that's the whole point of *individual* I-=
Ds.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>>>> Do we need one document for all use cases (all profiles) or one for e=
ach profiles?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC (if one per=
 profile).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>> My strong preference would be an individual I-D that (as Justin says=
) will NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D at all? Because this is what IETF fo=
lks are used to, and it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On 04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>>> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to ask that we *not* push a use cases do=
cument toward RFC. Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding develo=
pment, but should be discarded as artifacts of that process once said proces=
s is completed (or even well on its way).
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything referenced from the list=
 and easily findable                       works.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> As the more experienced chair, I will defer to Yaron for guidance.=

>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> So far no one has expected it to be adopted as an RFC
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on what the WG wants.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Email cases,
>>>>>>>>>> Github posted document,
>>>>>>>>>> Individual IDs posted to the working group, or
>>>>>>>>>> an ID that gets adopted as a WG draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE=
 has RFC7165, and SCIM itself had RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases-03).
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Let us know what form and what format.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> We can also use one for OpenID Backchannel Logout.  This is parti=
cularly important because it will be triggered by (or is related to) SCIM an=
d by RISC events such as account resets, authentication factor changes etc.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards=

>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> per=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2Oj=
EBjCZ9cBcI
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> you offered to put them in a WG doc (see quate below). Would tha=
t not be an ID. Also, as I read over the document, it is hard to follow what=
 the use cases are as it is very verbose.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m>; wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> > All,
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here i=
s the SCIM
>>>>>>>>>>> > case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document=
.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> My understanding was you wanted informal cases not IDs. The SCI=
M cases have been posted to the mailing list. I believe Marius is close on t=
he RISC cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standar=
ds
>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil / Marius
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the Chicago meeting, the two of you agreed to work on a doc=
ument containing use cases you considered to be relevant for secevent so tha=
t the WG could decide which ones were in scope and which ones were out of sc=
ope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checking in on the status of the use case document. Would you p=
rovide an update when you have a chance?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKC=
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s4oPwOTc&e=3D=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I a=
m working on!
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5=
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VbuCS8&e=3D=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am w=
orking on!
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.txt>
>>>> <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.pdf>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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e=3D=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am working=
 on!
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Marius</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignat=
ure"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"AppleM=
ailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I plan to publish the=
 SCIM cases as well soon.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil=
</div><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 4:42 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I just submitted the RIS=
C use cases at:<div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Drisc-2Duse-2Dca=
ses-2D00&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&=
amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DtjsYXq_mrcdpu3SY=
0cMGnrJ8mP9mJFWP4FmuuQquso8&amp;s=3D9y2RyAg9C03RYJyE_OynfRfi055mtkWrZ5_DXXT7=
7iM&amp;e=3D">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-=
cases-00</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>It is very basic right now, I just=
 wanted to make sure that there is at least a basic version submitted before=
 the deadline.</div><div><br></div><div>I will expand the descriptions and a=
dd diagrams.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me know if anyone else would like t=
o be an author.</div><div><br></div><div>Marius</div><div><br></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signatur=
e" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr">Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in the s=
ame document.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><span class=3D"">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Marius,</div><div id=3D"m_64=
0669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D=
"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSignature">Go ahead an s=
ubmit as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in a separate draft.&=
nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491Apple=
MailSignature">Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg document.&=
nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_640669497799861768h5"><div><br>O=
n May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtesc=
u@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Here is an initial use=
 case document, for now it has only the RISC use cases we discussed so far. W=
hen Phil gets back I will coordinate with him to add SCIM use cases to this s=
ame I-D. I will get this into a decent shape for the IETF meeting.</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_64066949779986=
1768m_-1281316939876395491gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature=
">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffe=
r <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Whatever works for you - and that's the whole point of
      *individual* I-Ds. </p>
    <p>Thanks,</p>
    <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<br>
    </p><div><div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491h5">
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44322884846269=
33606moz-cite-prefix">On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Do we need one document for all use cases (all
        profiles) or one for each profiles?
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC
          (if one per profile).</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
        <div>
          <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44322884=
84626933606gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron
          Sheffer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
              <p>My strong preference would be an individual I-D that
                (as Justin says) will NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D
                at all? Because this is what IETF folks are used to, and
                it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.</p>
              <p>Thanks,</p>
              <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<br>
              </p>
              <div>
                <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44=
32288484626933606h5"> <br>
                  <div class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_=
4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237moz-cite-prefix">On
                    04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type=3D"cite"> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to a=
sk
                    that we *not* push a use cases document toward RFC.
                    Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding
                    development, but should be discarded as artifacts of
                    that process once said process is completed (or even
                    well on its way).
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything
                      referenced from the list and easily findable
                      works.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div>
                    <div><br>
                      <div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                          <div>On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt
                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:</div>
                          <br class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-12813169398763=
95491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-interchange-newline">
                          <div>
                            <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;=
font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">As
                              the more experienced chair, I will defer
                              to Yaron for guidance.
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So far no one has expected it to be
                                adopted as an RFC</div>
                            </div>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
                              <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 3,
                                2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt<span class=3D"m_6=
40669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-9691021721061=
98237Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan><span class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626=
933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wr<wbr>ote:<b=
r>
                                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
                                    <div>Depends on what the WG wants.</div>=

                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Email cases,</div>
                                    <div>Github posted document,</div>
                                    <div>Individual IDs posted to the
                                      working group, or</div>
                                    <div>an ID that gets adopted as a WG
                                      draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE
                                      has RFC7165, and SCIM itself had
                                      RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft<span cla=
ss=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-9691=
02172106198237Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Do=
auth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5=
YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dg=
wGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640uMNo_o5=
BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/h<wbr>=
tml/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases<wbr>-03</a>).</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Let us know what form and what
                                      format.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>We can also use one for OpenID
                                      Backchannel Logout.&nbsp; This is
                                      particularly important because it
                                      will be triggered by (or is
                                      related to) SCIM and by RISC
                                      events such as account resets,
                                      authentication factor changes etc.</di=
v>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><span>
                                        <div>
                                          <div style=3D"letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                            <div style=3D"letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                              <div style=3D"letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                <div style=3D"letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                  <div style=3D"letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                    <div style=3D"letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                      <div style=3D"letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                        <div style=3D"letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div><span class=3D=
"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172=
106198237m_1390506685430850822Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:sep=
arate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                          <div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Phil</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independenti=
d</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com_&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJB=
m5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrc=
rcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3D5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA&amp;e=3D=
" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span><a href=3D"=
mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <br>
                                      </span>
                                      <div>
                                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                          <div>
                                            <div class=3D"m_6406694977998617=
68m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237h5">
                                              <div>On May 3, 2017, at
                                                4:31 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;
                                                wrote:</div>
                                              <br class=3D"m_640669497799861=
768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237m_1390506=
685430850822Apple-interchange-newline">
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div class=3D"m_64066949779986=
1768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237h5">
                                                <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>per&nbsp;</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.ietf.org_arch_msg_i=
d-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3DebhqgdwBfmc=
lFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarc=
hive.ietf.org/a<wbr>rch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKe<wbr>q2OjEBjCZ9cBcI</a><br=
>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>you offered to
                                                    put them in a WG doc
                                                    (see quate below).
                                                    Would that not be an
                                                    ID. Also, as I read
                                                    over the document,
                                                    it is hard to follow
                                                    what the use cases
                                                    are as it is very
                                                    verbose.</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <pre class=3D"m_64066949=
7799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237m_=
1390506685430850822gmail-wordwrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;overflow:a=
uto;font-family:menlo,monaco,consolas,'courier new',monospace;font-size:13px=
;padding:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:1.42857;word-brea=
k:normal;word-wrap:normal;color:rgb(51,51,51);border:0px none black;border-t=
op-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4p=
x;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;white-space:pre-wrap">On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 a=
t 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com&amp;gt" sty=
le=3D"box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,18=
3)" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt;</a>; wrote:

&gt; All,
&gt;
&gt; Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is the SCI=
M
&gt; case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.</pre>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br>
                                                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On
                                                    Wed, May 3, 2017 at
                                                    4:16 PM, Phil Hunt<span c=
lass=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96=
9102172106198237Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44=
32288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wr=
<wbr>ote:<br>
                                                    <blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-lef=
t-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                      <div style=3D"word-wra=
p:break-word">My
                                                        understanding
                                                        was you wanted
                                                        informal cases
                                                        not IDs. The
                                                        SCIM cases have
                                                        been posted to
                                                        the mailing
                                                        list. I believe
                                                        Marius is close
                                                        on the RISC
                                                        cases.
                                                        <div><br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>Phil</div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_640669=
497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237=
m_1390506685430850822m_8393468895938290301Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-=
collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                          <div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independenti=
d</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&am=
p;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm=
5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dg=
AhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3DnBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&amp;e=3D=
" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span><a href=3D"=
mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div=
>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote type=3D=
"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div class=3D"m_64=
0669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910217210619=
8237m_1390506685430850822h5">
                                                          <div>On May 3,
                                                          2017, at 3:56
                                                          PM, Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          <br class=3D"m_640=
669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198=
237m_1390506685430850822m_8393468895938290301Apple-interchange-newline">
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div class=3D"m_64=
0669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910217210619=
8237m_1390506685430850822h5">
                                                          <div dir=3D"ltr">P=
hil
                                                          / Marius
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>At the
                                                          Chicago
                                                          meeting, the
                                                          two of you
                                                          agreed to work
                                                          on a document
                                                          containing use
                                                          cases you
                                                          considered to
                                                          be relevant
                                                          for secevent
                                                          so that the WG
                                                          could decide
                                                          which ones
                                                          were in scope
                                                          and which ones
                                                          were out of
                                                          scope.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Checking
                                                          in on the
                                                          status of the
                                                          use case
                                                          document.
                                                          Would you
                                                          provide an
                                                          update when
                                                          you have a
                                                          chance?</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>/Dick<br clea=
r=3D"all">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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                                                    </blockquote>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <br>
                                                  <br clear=3D"all">
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  --<span class=3D"m_6406694=
97799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
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                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                      </div>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                              <br clear=3D"all">
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              --<span class=3D"m_640669497799861768m_-128131=
6939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><br>
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          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>&lt;draft-scur=
tescu-secevent-use-<wbr>cases.txt&gt;</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div>&lt;draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-<wbr>cases.pdf&gt;</div></blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span><span>____________________________=
__<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org<=
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eGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk=
&amp;s=3Dt5e3IvZ_e-KRHUBVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-6OkkgmSjo&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr=
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z<wbr>jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr<wbr>86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0=
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> </span><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><d=
iv class=3D"h5"><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_=
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:20:57 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>,  "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use case document
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Wearing my secevent chair hat.

We asked secevent participants to provide use cases. Marius was writing
them for RISC. As I recall, Phil was going to write them for SCIM.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Wearing my OpenID member hat =E2=80=93 why isn=E2=80=99t this a RISC work=
ing group
> document, rather than an SECEVENT working group document?
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] * On Behalf Of *Mariu=
s
> Scurtescu
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2017 4:42 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>=
;
> Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use case document
>
>
>
> I just submitted the RISC use cases at:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00
>
>
>
> It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make sure that there is at
> least a basic version submitted before the deadline.
>
>
>
> I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.
>
>
>
> Let me know if anyone else would like to be an author.
>
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in the same document.
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> Marius,
>
>
>
> Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in a
> separate draft.
>
>
>
> Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg document.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> Here is an initial use case document, for now it has only the RISC use
> cases we discussed so far. When Phil gets back I will coordinate with him
> to add SCIM use cases to this same I-D. I will get this into a decent sha=
pe
> for the IETF meeting.
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Whatever works for you - and that's the whole point of *individual* I-Ds.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>
> Do we need one document for all use cases (all profiles) or one for each
> profiles?
>
>
>
> I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC (if one per
> profile).
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> My strong preference would be an individual I-D that (as Justin says) wil=
l
> NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D at all? Because this is what IETF folks
> are used to, and it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Yaron
>
>
>
> On 04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to ask that we *not* push a use cases document=
 toward
> RFC. Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding development, but
> should be discarded as artifacts of that process once said process is
> completed (or even well on its way).
>
>
>
> As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything referenced from the list and
> easily findable works.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> As the more experienced chair, I will defer to Yaron for guidance.
>
>
>
> So far no one has expected it to be adopted as an RFC
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Depends on what the WG wants.
>
>
>
> Email cases,
>
> Github posted document,
>
> Individual IDs posted to the working group, or
>
> an ID that gets adopted as a WG draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE has
> RFC7165, and SCIM itself had RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases-03
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&=
m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640uMNo_=
o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&e=3D>
> ).
>
>
>
> Let us know what form and what format.
>
>
>
> We can also use one for OpenID Backchannel Logout.  This is particularly
> important because it will be triggered by (or is related to) SCIM and by
> RISC events such as account resets, authentication factor changes etc.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1=
w14yDo0vk&s=3D5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On May 3, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Phil
>
>
>
> per
>
>
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBc=
I
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.ietf.=
org_arch_msg_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=3DebhqgdwBfmclFp=
Vn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&e=3D>
>
>
>
> you offered to put them in a WG doc (see quate below). Would that not be
> an ID. Also, as I read over the document, it is hard to follow what the u=
se
> cases are as it is very verbose.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> <phil.=
hunt@oracle.com&gt>; wrote:
>
>
>
> > All,
>
> >
>
> > Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is the SCI=
M
>
> > case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> My understanding was you wanted informal cases not IDs. The SCIM cases
> have been posted to the mailing list. I believe Marius is close on the RI=
SC
> cases.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbW=
xW8BOy4Q&s=3DnBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On May 3, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Phil / Marius
>
>
>
> At the Chicago meeting, the two of you agreed to work on a document
> containing use cases you considered to be relevant for secevent so that t=
he
> WG could decide which ones were in scope and which ones were out of scope=
.
>
>
>
> Checking in on the status of the use case document. Would you provide an
> update when you have a chance?
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Wearing my secevent chair hat.<div><br></div><div>We asked=
 secevent participants to provide use cases. Marius was writing them for RI=
SC. As I recall, Phil was going to write them for SCIM.</div></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5=
:17 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Wearing my OpenID memb=
er hat =E2=80=93 why isn=E2=80=99t this a RISC working group document, rath=
er than an SECEVENT working group document?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-8038284202097055477__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>=
] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Marius Scurtescu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 29, 2017 4:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; SecEvent &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Justin Rich=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu=
</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use case document<u></u><u></u></p><div><div=
 class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I just submitted the RISC use cases at:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtes=
cu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/<wbr>draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-<wbr>use-cases-00</a><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make su=
re that there is at least a basic version submitted before the deadline.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let me know if anyone else would like to be an autho=
r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in t=
he same document.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491=
AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491=
AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will su=
bmit scim cases in a separate draft.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491=
AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491=
AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg d=
ocument.=C2=A0<br>
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here is an initial use case document, for now it has=
 only the RISC use cases we discussed so far. When Phil gets back I will co=
ordinate with him to add SCIM use cases to this same I-D. I will get this i=
nto a decent shape for the IETF meeting.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>Whatever works for you - and that&#39;s the whole point of *individual* =
I-Ds. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu wrote:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we need one document for all use cases (all profi=
les) or one for each profiles?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am happy to create the one document or the one for=
 RISC (if one per profile).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>My strong preference would be an individual I-D that (as Justin says) wi=
ll NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D at all? Because this is what IETF folks=
 are used to, and it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to ask that we *not* push=
 a use cases document toward RFC. Use case documents are wonderful tools fo=
r guiding development, but should be discarded as artifacts of that process=
 once said process is completed (or even well
 on its way). <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything reference=
d from the list and easily findable works.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">As the more experienced chair, I will defer to Yar=
on for guidance.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">So far no one has expected it to be adopted as an =
RFC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-1281316939876395491m443228=
8484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m</a>&gt;<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-12813169=
39876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Depends on what the WG wants.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Email cases,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Github posted document,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Individual IDs posted to the working group, or<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">an ID that gets adopted as a WG draft to end up as=
 RFC (e.g. JOSE has RFC7165, and SCIM itself had RFC7642, Oauth had a WG dr=
aft<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-12813169398763=
95491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__too=
ls.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0=
vk&amp;s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640uMNo_o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&amp;e=3D" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-ietf-oauth-use-<wbr>cases-03=
</a>).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Let us know what form and what format.<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">We can also use one for OpenID Backchannel Logout.=
=C2=A0 This is particularly important because it will be triggered by (or i=
s related to) SCIM and by RISC events such as account
 resets, authentication factor changes etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archit=
ect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C=
_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3D5rKXnv7G=
YvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.indepen=
dentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On May 3, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Phil
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">per=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.ietf.org_arch_msg_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjE=
BjCZ9cBcI&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkI=
tfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3DebhqgdwBfmclFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3=
XXk91Es&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/<wbr>arch/=
msg/id-event/<wbr>FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">you offered to put them in a WG doc (see quate bel=
ow). Would that not be an ID. Also, as I read over the document, it is hard=
 to follow what the use cases are as it is very
 verbose.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt;box-sizing:border-box;word-wrap:normal;bo=
rder-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-ra=
dius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;white-space:pre-wrap;overflow:auto">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#333333">On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at =
11:27 AM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com&amp;gt" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#337ab7">phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt;</span>=
</a>; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:#333333"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:#333333">&gt; All,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:#333333">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:#333333">&gt; Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.=C2=
=A0 Here is the SCIM<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:#333333">&gt; case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group docum=
ent.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Phil Hunt<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-1281316939876395491m443228=
8484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m</a>&gt;<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-12813169=
39876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">My understanding was you wanted informal cases not=
 IDs. The SCIM cases have been posted to the mailing list. I believe Marius=
 is close on the RISC cases.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archit=
ect &amp; Standards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3DnBNO3_d_M=
w4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independ=
entid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On May 3, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil / Marius
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">At the Chicago meeting, the two of you agreed to w=
ork on a document containing use cases you considered to be relevant for se=
cevent so that the WG could decide which ones
 were in scope and which ones were out of scope.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Checking in on the status of the use case document=
. Would you provide an update when you have a chance?<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">/Dick<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DHWdy4Q9fHAYB3f-DZ2GWUJnaZDGcZQRaMexC2oHuR7g&amp;s=3DJTwCxbXPzY_A62=
IiywTMIjRB-XsMY8UPafBs4oPwOTc&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listin=
fo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4=
C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>HWdy4Q9fHAYB3f-<wbr>DZ2GWUJnaZDGcZQRaMexC2oHuR7g&amp;<=
wbr>s=3DJTwCxbXPzY_A62IiywTMIjRB-<wbr>XsMY8UPafBs4oPwOTc&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-1281316939876395491m443=
2288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m6406694977=
99861768m-1281316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055=
477m640669497799861768m-1281316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-9691021721=
06198237apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=
=3DuVstd9R0_1UCdJ6s_rcX7xhYo6fyGuk22APkiwL0vpI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-1281=
316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-spac=
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</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy=
4Q&amp;s=3DfzkXYKa7l9vPc2VrpDeaBZo7bH9cDrk9wUethVbuCS8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"=
_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wb=
r>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>bAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAh=
F<wbr>4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3D<wbr>fzkXYKa7l9vPc2VrpDeaBZo7bH9cDr<wbr>k9wUeth=
VbuCS8&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768=
m-1281316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m6406694977=
99861768m-1281316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055=
477m640669497799861768m-1281316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-9691021721=
06198237apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=
=3DvljaqeEQFcDwsi_zNO5R2uecLv2B3VE8QvdEVBRHIGI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-8038284202097055477m640669497799861768m-1281=
316939876395491m4432288484626933606m-969102172106198237apple-converted-spac=
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 list to learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event@=
ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helveti=
ca&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4=
C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3Dt5e3IvZ=
_e-KRHUBVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-6OkkgmSjo&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-<wbr>cases.txt&gt;<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-<wbr>cases.pdf&gt;<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3Dt5e3IvZ_e-KRHU=
BVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-6OkkgmSjo&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listin=
fo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4=
C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>gwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-<wbr>LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=
=3D<wbr>t5e3IvZ_e-<wbr>KRHUBVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-<wbr>6OkkgmSjo&amp;e=3D</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a114574f4617fe605532265c1--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:21:28 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-vnNG=yj=bba6r06ea_t031Dxd20F8GY8TjY8qkHn-Yyg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use case document
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Thanks Phil!

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Marius
>
> Thanks!
>
> I plan to publish the SCIM cases as well soon.
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 4:42 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> I just submitted the RISC use cases at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Drisc-2Duse-2Dcases-2D00&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DtjsYXq_mrcdpu3SY0cMGnrJ8mP9mJFWP4FmuuQquso8&s=3D9y2RyAg9=
C03RYJyE_OynfRfi055mtkWrZ5_DXXT77iM&e=3D>
>
> It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make sure that there is at
> least a basic version submitted before the deadline.
>
> I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.
>
> Let me know if anyone else would like to be an author.
>
> Marius
>
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in the same document.
>>
>> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Marius,
>>>
>>> Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in =
a
>>> separate draft.
>>>
>>> Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg document.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is an initial use case document, for now it has only the RISC use
>>> cases we discussed so far. When Phil gets back I will coordinate with h=
im
>>> to add SCIM use cases to this same I-D. I will get this into a decent s=
hape
>>> for the IETF meeting.
>>>
>>> Marius
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whatever works for you - and that's the whole point of *individual*
>>>> I-Ds.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>     Yaron
>>>>
>>>> On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Do we need one document for all use cases (all profiles) or one for
>>>> each profiles?
>>>>
>>>> I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC (if one per
>>>> profile).
>>>>
>>>> Marius
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My strong preference would be an individual I-D that (as Justin says)
>>>>> will NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D at all? Because this is what IE=
TF
>>>>> folks are used to, and it is referenced from the WG agenda and minute=
s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Yaron
>>>>>
>>>>> On 04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to ask that we *not* push a use cases docu=
ment
>>>>> toward RFC. Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding develo=
pment,
>>>>> but should be discarded as artifacts of that process once said proces=
s is
>>>>> completed (or even well on its way).
>>>>>
>>>>> As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything referenced from the list
>>>>> and easily findable works.
>>>>>
>>>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As the more experienced chair, I will defer to Yaron for guidance.
>>>>>
>>>>> So far no one has expected it to be adopted as an RFC
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr
>>>>> ote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on what the WG wants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email cases,
>>>>>> Github posted document,
>>>>>> Individual IDs posted to the working group, or
>>>>>> an ID that gets adopted as a WG draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE ha=
s
>>>>>> RFC7165, and SCIM itself had RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft
>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases-03
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.o=
rg_html_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640=
uMNo_o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&e=3D>
>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let us know what form and what format.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can also use one for OpenID Backchannel Logout.  This is
>>>>>> particularly important because it will be triggered by (or is relate=
d to)
>>>>>> SCIM and by RISC events such as account resets, authentication facto=
r
>>>>>> changes etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independe=
ntid.com_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJB=
m5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcT=
S6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=3D5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA&e=3D>
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> per
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKe
>>>>>> q2OjEBjCZ9cBcI
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.=
ietf.org_arch_msg_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=3DebhqgdwBf=
mclFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&e=3D>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you offered to put them in a WG doc (see quate below). Would that no=
t
>>>>>> be an ID. Also, as I read over the document, it is hard to follow wh=
at the
>>>>>> use cases are as it is very verbose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> <=
phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt>; wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > All,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is th=
e SCIM
>>>>>> > case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr
>>>>>> ote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My understanding was you wanted informal cases not IDs. The SCIM
>>>>>>> cases have been posted to the mailing list. I believe Marius is clo=
se on
>>>>>>> the RISC cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJB=
m5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAh=
F4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=3DnBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&e=3D>
>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 3, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phil / Marius
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the Chicago meeting, the two of you agreed to work on a document
>>>>>>> containing use cases you considered to be relevant for secevent so =
that the
>>>>>>> WG could decide which ones were in scope and which ones were out of=
 scope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Checking in on the status of the use case document. Would you
>>>>>>> provide an update when you have a chance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DHWdy4Q9fHAYB3f-DZ2GWUJnaZDGcZQRaMexC2oHuR7g
>>>>>>> &s=3DJTwCxbXPzY_A62IiywTMIjRB-XsMY8UPafBs4oPwOTc&e=3D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com=
_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKu=
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>>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q
>>>>>> &s=3DfzkXYKa7l9vPc2VrpDeaBZo7bH9cDrk9wUethVbuCS8&e=3D
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_=
&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
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>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
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gmSjo&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.txt>
>>>
>>> <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.pdf>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk
>>> &s=3Dt5e3IvZ_e-KRHUBVMfjtwKEs74yLZva4z-6OkkgmSjo&e=3D
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
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>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>
>
>


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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Phil!</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phi=
l.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"auto"><div>Marius</div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837AppleMai=
lSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837AppleMailSignature">=
Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837AppleMailSignature"><br></div=
><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837AppleMailSignature">I plan to publish the=
 SCIM cases as well soon.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div=
></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 4:42 PM,=
 Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I just submitted the RISC use cases at:<div><a=
 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Drisc-2Duse-2Dcases-2D00&amp;d=3DDwM=
FaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DtjsYXq_mrcdpu3SY0cMGnrJ8mP9mJFWP4F=
muuQquso8&amp;s=3D9y2RyAg9C03RYJyE_OynfRfi055mtkWrZ5_DXXT77iM&amp;e=3D" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-scurtescu-secevent-ri=
sc-<wbr>use-cases-00</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>It is very basic righ=
t now, I just wanted to make sure that there is at least a basic version su=
bmitted before the deadline.</div><div><br></div><div>I will expand the des=
criptions and add diagrams.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me know if anyone =
else would like to be an author.</div><div><br></div><div>Marius</div><div>=
<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div clas=
s=3D"m_-5577730685693034837gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatu=
re">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in =
the same document.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><span>On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hun=
t@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><div><div class=3D"m_-55777306=
85693034837h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Marius=
,</div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-128131693987=
6395491AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640=
669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSignature">Go ahead an submit=
 as an individual draft. I will submit scim cases in a separate draft.=C2=
=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939=
876395491AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_6=
40669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491AppleMailSignature">Afaik there is n=
o plan to have this he a single wg document.=C2=A0<br><br>Phil</div><div><d=
iv class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768h5"><div><br>On May 3=
1, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@goog=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Here is an initial use cas=
e document, for now it has only the RISC use cases we discussed so far. Whe=
n Phil gets back I will coordinate with him to add SCIM use cases to this s=
ame I-D. I will get this into a decent shape for the IETF meeting.</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_-55777306856=
93034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491gmail_signature" data-sma=
rtmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheff=
er <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Whatever works for you - and that&#39;s the whole point of
      *individual* I-Ds. </p>
    <p>Thanks,</p>
    <p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<br>
    </p><div><div class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-128=
1316939876395491h5">
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-128131693987=
6395491m_4432288484626933606moz-cite-prefix">On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scur=
tescu
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Do we need one document for all use cases (all
        profiles) or one for each profiles?
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I am happy to create the one document or the one for RISC
          (if one per profile).</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
        <div>
          <div class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-128131=
6939876395491m_4432288484626933606gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_=
signature">Marius</div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron
          Sheffer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
              <p>My strong preference would be an individual I-D that
                (as Justin says) will NOT be pushed to RFC. Why an I-D
                at all? Because this is what IETF folks are used to, and
                it is referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.</p>
              <p>Thanks,</p>
              <p>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<br>
              </p>
              <div>
                <div class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-=
1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606h5"> <br>
                  <div class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m=
_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237moz-cite-pre=
fix">On
                    04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type=3D"cite"> In fact, I=E2=80=99m going to =
ask
                    that we *not* push a use cases document toward RFC.
                    Use case documents are wonderful tools for guiding
                    development, but should be discarded as artifacts of
                    that process once said process is completed (or even
                    well on its way).
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything
                      referenced from the list and easily findable
                      works.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div>
                    <div><br>
                      <div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                          <div>On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt
                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:</div>
                          <br class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799=
861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple=
-interchange-newline">
                          <div>
                            <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">As
                              the more experienced chair, I will defer
                              to Yaron for guidance.
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So far no one has expected it to be
                                adopted as an RFC</div>
                            </div>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
                              <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 3,
                                2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil Hunt<span class=3D"m_=
-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44322884846=
26933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_64066=
9497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-9691021721061982=
37Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<br>
                                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
                                    <div>Depends on what the WG wants.</div=
>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Email cases,</div>
                                    <div>Github posted document,</div>
                                    <div>Individual IDs posted to the
                                      working group, or</div>
                                    <div>an ID that gets adopted as a WG
                                      draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE
                                      has RFC7165, and SCIM itself had
                                      RFC7642, Oauth had a WG draft<span cl=
ass=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44=
32288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf=
.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE=
ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;=
s=3D_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640uMNo_o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/h<wbr>tml/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases<wbr>-03</a>).<=
/div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Let us know what form and what
                                      format.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>We can also use one for OpenID
                                      Backchannel Logout.=C2=A0 This is
                                      particularly important because it
                                      will be triggered by (or is
                                      related to) SCIM and by RISC
                                      events such as account resets,
                                      authentication factor changes etc.</d=
iv>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><span>
                                        <div>
                                          <div style=3D"letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                            <div style=3D"letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                              <div style=3D"letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                <div style=3D"letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                  <div style=3D"letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                    <div style=3D"letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                      <div style=3D"letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                        <div style=3D"lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div><span class=
=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44322=
88484626933606m_-969102172106198237m_1390506685430850822Apple-style-span" s=
tyle=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
                                                          <div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Phil</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independent=
id</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com_=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DgwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWn=
R-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&amp;s=3D5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <br>
                                      </span>
                                      <div>
                                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                          <div>
                                            <div class=3D"m_-55777306856930=
34837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-9691=
02172106198237h5">
                                              <div>On May 3, 2017, at
                                                4:31 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;
                                                wrote:</div>
                                              <br class=3D"m_-5577730685693=
034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-969=
102172106198237m_1390506685430850822Apple-interchange-newline">
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div class=3D"m_-557773068569=
3034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96=
9102172106198237h5">
                                                <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>per=C2=A0</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><a href=3D"https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__mailarchive.ietf.org_arch_msg=
_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3Debhqgd=
wBfmclFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://m=
ailarchive.ietf.org/a<wbr>rch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKe<wbr>q2OjEBjCZ9cBcI=
</a><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>you offered to
                                                    put them in a WG doc
                                                    (see quate below).
                                                    Would that not be an
                                                    ID. Also, as I read
                                                    over the document,
                                                    it is hard to follow
                                                    what the use cases
                                                    are as it is very
                                                    verbose.</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <pre class=3D"m_-557773=
0685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_443228848462693360=
6m_-969102172106198237m_1390506685430850822gmail-wordwrap" style=3D"box-siz=
ing:border-box;overflow:auto;font-family:menlo,monaco,consolas,&#39;courier=
 new&#39;,monospace;font-size:13px;padding:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:10px;line-height:1.42857;word-break:normal;word-wrap:normal;color:rgb(51,5=
1,51);border:0px none black;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-rad=
ius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com&amp;gt" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;backgrou=
nd-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183)" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com&gt;</a>; wrote:

&gt; All,
&gt;
&gt; Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is the SC=
IM
&gt; case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.</pre>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br>
                                                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">On
                                                    Wed, May 3, 2017 at
                                                    4:16 PM, Phil Hunt<span=
 class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m=
_4432288484626933606m_-969102172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_=
blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_-557773068569303=
4837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626933606m_-96910=
2172106198237Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<br>
                                                    <blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                      <div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word">My
                                                        understanding
                                                        was you wanted
                                                        informal cases
                                                        not IDs. The
                                                        SCIM cases have
                                                        been posted to
                                                        the mailing
                                                        list. I believe
                                                        Marius is close
                                                        on the RISC
                                                        cases.
                                                        <div><br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>Phil</div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div style=3D"let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_-55=
77730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_44322884846269=
33606m_-969102172106198237m_1390506685430850822m_8393468895938290301Apple-s=
tyle-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spac=
ing:0px">
                                                          <div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Oracle
                                                          Corporation,
                                                          Identity Cloud
                                                          Services
                                                          Architect
                                                          &amp;
                                                          Standards</div>
                                                          <div>@independent=
id</div>
                                                          <div><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&=
amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DbAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM=
36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&amp;s=3DnBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&am=
p;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </span><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></d=
iv>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote type=
=3D"cite">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div class=3D"m_-=
5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_443228848462=
6933606m_-969102172106198237m_1390506685430850822h5">
                                                          <div>On May 3,
                                                          2017, at 3:56
                                                          PM, Dick Hardt
                                                          &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          <br class=3D"m_-5=
577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_4432288484626=
933606m_-969102172106198237m_1390506685430850822m_8393468895938290301Apple-=
interchange-newline">
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div class=3D"m_-=
5577730685693034837m_640669497799861768m_-1281316939876395491m_443228848462=
6933606m_-969102172106198237m_1390506685430850822h5">
                                                          <div dir=3D"ltr">=
Phil
                                                          / Marius
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>At the
                                                          Chicago
                                                          meeting, the
                                                          two of you
                                                          agreed to work
                                                          on a document
                                                          containing use
                                                          cases you
                                                          considered to
                                                          be relevant
                                                          for secevent
                                                          so that the WG
                                                          could decide
                                                          which ones
                                                          were in scope
                                                          and which ones
                                                          were out of
                                                          scope.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Checking
                                                          in on the
                                                          status of the
                                                          use case
                                                          document.
                                                          Would you
                                                          provide an
                                                          update when
                                                          you have a
                                                          chance?</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>/Dick<br cle=
ar=3D"all">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
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                                                  --<span class=3D"m_-55777=
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                              --<span class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837m_6406=
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          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>&lt;draft-scu=
rtescu-secevent-use-<wbr>cases.txt&gt;</div></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div>&lt;draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-<wbr>cases.pdf&gt;</div></b=
lockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span><span>______________________=
________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span>=
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></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_-5577730685693034837h5"><br><br clear=3D"=
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--94eb2c07684a411fa3055322673b--


From nobody Thu Jun 29 18:28:25 2017
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Subject: [Id-event] Time slots for secevents
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Chairs

I would like to request time slots to discuss the following documents. As I c=
annot make it, I am listing the proposed speakers:

* SET Token - Mike to cover issues since Chicago
* SET Delivery - Marius, new individual draft proposal (to be posted shortly=
) covering push and poll delivery
* Secevent usecases SCIM - Tony to present the scim use cases draft (to be p=
osted shortly)
* Secevent usecases RISC - Marius to present the RISC use cases draft

Thanks to all the co-authors: Marius, Mike, Tony, Annabelle and Morteza thes=
e past few weeks for helping to get these documents finished in time for the=
 group to review for Prague. I recognize everyone has had a lot of limited t=
ime this quarter and appreciate the time.  As a result, I think the drafts a=
nd our proposal has really improved.=20

Thanks and sorry I can't be there!

Phil=


From nobody Thu Jun 29 20:36:52 2017
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 20:36:27 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Dick Hardt <dick@amazon.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Hi Phil

Sorry you won't make it there. I think we had already anticipated these
items in our agenda. Thanks for double checking.

/Dick

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Chairs
>
> I would like to request time slots to discuss the following documents. As
> I cannot make it, I am listing the proposed speakers:
>
> * SET Token - Mike to cover issues since Chicago
> * SET Delivery - Marius, new individual draft proposal (to be posted
> shortly) covering push and poll delivery
> * Secevent usecases SCIM - Tony to present the scim use cases draft (to be
> posted shortly)
> * Secevent usecases RISC - Marius to present the RISC use cases draft
>
> Thanks to all the co-authors: Marius, Mike, Tony, Annabelle and Morteza
> these past few weeks for helping to get these documents finished in time
> for the group to review for Prague. I recognize everyone has had a lot of
> limited time this quarter and appreciate the time.  As a result, I think
> the drafts and our proposal has really improved.
>
> Thanks and sorry I can't be there!
>
> Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>



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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>Sorry you won&#39;t make it the=
re. I think we had already anticipated these items in our agenda. Thanks fo=
r double checking.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 6:28 PM=
, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">Chairs<br>
<br>
I would like to request time slots to discuss the following documents. As I=
 cannot make it, I am listing the proposed speakers:<br>
<br>
* SET Token - Mike to cover issues since Chicago<br>
* SET Delivery - Marius, new individual draft proposal (to be posted shortl=
y) covering push and poll delivery<br>
* Secevent usecases SCIM - Tony to present the scim use cases draft (to be =
posted shortly)<br>
* Secevent usecases RISC - Marius to present the RISC use cases draft<br>
<br>
Thanks to all the co-authors: Marius, Mike, Tony, Annabelle and Morteza the=
se past few weeks for helping to get these documents finished in time for t=
he group to review for Prague. I recognize everyone has had a lot of limite=
d time this quarter and appreciate the time.=C2=A0 As a result, I think the=
 drafts and our proposal has really improved.<br>
<br>
Thanks and sorry I can&#39;t be there!<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

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Subject: [Id-event] Bouncing emails and membership suspensions
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--Apple-Mail=_6CD21774-B9C4-4536-9E89-9B148D417FE2
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	charset=us-ascii

Just so everyone knows, as the id-events mailing list admin, I have been =
receiving a number of bounced emails from several domains such as =
gmail.com, google.com, and paypal which after a number of repeats can =
result in suspensions from the list, The cause seems to be messages =
posted from microsoft.com and a possible DMARC policy problem.

I have escalated the issue to the ietf action list and hopefully there =
is a solution.

Note:  if you are aware of colleagues not getting this email (because =
the bouncing has caused them to be suspended), please let them know.

Thanks,

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Just so everyone knows, as the id-events mailing list admin, =
I have been receiving a number of bounced emails from several domains =
such as <a href=3D"http://gmail.com" class=3D"">gmail.com</a>, <a =
href=3D"http://google.com" class=3D"">google.com</a>, and paypal which =
after a number of repeats can result in suspensions from the list, The =
cause seems to be messages posted from <a href=3D"http://microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">microsoft.com</a> and a possible DMARC policy problem.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have escalated the =
issue to the ietf action list and hopefully there is a =
solution.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Note: &nbsp;if you are aware of colleagues not getting this =
email (because the bouncing has caused them to be suspended), please let =
them know.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>

<br class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Yaron Sheffer <yaron_sheffer@intuit.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/s0mz_Fr0wLsQUeLqvXHQpV3_Qdk>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Bouncing emails and membership suspensions
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FYI, Tony's membership has been suspended and he can=92t rejoin.

=96 Mike

From: Phil Hunt<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:42 PM
To: ID Events Mailing List<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Bouncing emails and membership suspensions

Just so everyone knows, as the id-events mailing list admin, I have been re=
ceiving a number of bounced emails from several domains such as gmail.com<h=
ttp://gmail.com>, google.com<http://google.com>, and paypal which after a n=
umber of repeats can result in suspensions from the list, The cause seems t=
o be messages posted from microsoft.com<http://microsoft.com> and a possibl=
e DMARC policy problem.

I have escalated the issue to the ietf action list and hopefully there is a=
 solution.

Note:  if you are aware of colleagues not getting this email (because the b=
ouncing has caused them to be suspended), please let them know.

Thanks,

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com<http://www.independentid.com>
phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">FYI, Tony's membership has been suspended and he can=
=92t rejoin.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=96 Mike</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">Phil Hunt</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:42 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">ID Events Mailing List</a><=
br>
<b>Subject: </b>Bouncing emails and membership suspensions</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>Just so everyone knows, as the id-events mailing list admin, I have be=
en receiving a number of bounced emails from several domains such as
<a href=3D"http://gmail.com" class=3D"">gmail.com</a>, <a href=3D"http://go=
ogle.com" class=3D"">
google.com</a>, and paypal which after a number of repeats can result in su=
spensions from the list, The cause seems to be messages posted from
<a href=3D"http://microsoft.com" class=3D"">microsoft.com</a> and a possibl=
e DMARC policy problem.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I have escalated the issue to the ietf action list and hope=
fully there is a solution.</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Note: &nbsp;if you are aware of colleagues not getting this=
 email (because the bouncing has caused them to be suspended), please let t=
hem know.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Thanks,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
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t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
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t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
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t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
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t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
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<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -=
webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Phil</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp;=
 Standards</div>
<div class=3D"">@independentid</div>
<div class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" class=3D"">www.ind=
ependentid.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:=
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<br class=3D"">
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Bouncing emails and membership suspensions
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Mike,

Thanks.  I have re-added Tony. =20

All:  Please let me know of any colleagues who are having issues.

I have reset all the suspensions I have found as well. =20

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:51 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> FYI, Tony's membership has been suspended and he can=E2=80=99t rejoin.
> =20
> =E2=80=93 Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:42 PM
> To: ID Events Mailing List <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Bouncing emails and membership suspensions
> =20
> Just so everyone knows, as the id-events mailing list admin, I have =
been receiving a number of bounced emails from several domains such as =
gmail.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__gmail.com&d=3DDwMF-=
g&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
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=3DN1uIC8_kaVCtTlaoFDj12B2raju2j-h9YHjjvXhIEug&e=3D>, and paypal which =
after a number of repeats can result in suspensions from the list, The =
cause seems to be messages posted from microsoft.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__microsoft.com&d=3DD=
wMF-g&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DwvMzgsjQoY9EeMU1-V6igXCJRHjrwHjXtwdqRj5i-R=
k&s=3DO0SHa43zqaqXLDz3z2Ku-43lP8WVqsZzMgb2bbeETSI&e=3D> and a possible =
DMARC policy problem.
>=20
> I have escalated the issue to the ietf action list and hopefully there =
is a solution.
>=20
> Note:  if you are aware of colleagues not getting this email (because =
the bouncing has caused them to be suspended), please let them know.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMF-g&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DwvMzgsjQoY9EeMU1-V6igXCJRHjrwHjXtw=
dqRj5i-Rk&s=3Dw-agSjDXZmfSh0D2jdKcXXQbqql9Ir3-wjeqNRCQ56U&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

--Apple-Mail=_B6B5102B-D0B7-4D22-B11F-7C8F4FBD37C7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Mike,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks. &nbsp;I have re-added Tony. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">All: &nbsp;Please let me =
know of any colleagues who are having issues.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have reset all the suspensions I have =
found as well. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">=

<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:51 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">FYI, Tony's membership has been suspended and he can=E2=80=99t =
rejoin.</div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=93 =
Mike</div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; border: =
none; padding: 0in;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Thursday, June 29, 2017 =
10:42 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ID Events Mailing List</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Bouncing emails and =
membership suspensions</div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Just so everyone knows, as the id-events mailing list admin, =
I have been receiving a number of bounced emails from several domains =
such as<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__gmail.com&am=
p;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DwvMzgsjQoY9EeMU1-V6igXC=
JRHjrwHjXtwdqRj5i-Rk&amp;s=3Dz2pJJFQ092ehUYYZAxVrATzgsc-5JIRm7ZfL4TkAsTA&a=
mp;e=3D" class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">gmail.com</a>,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__google.com&a=
mp;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DwvMzgsjQoY9EeMU1-V6igX=
CJRHjrwHjXtwdqRj5i-Rk&amp;s=3DN1uIC8_kaVCtTlaoFDj12B2raju2j-h9YHjjvXhIEug&=
amp;e=3D" class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">google.com</a>, and paypal which after a number of repeats =
can result in suspensions from the list, The cause seems to be messages =
posted from<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__microsoft.co=
m&amp;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DwvMzgsjQoY9EeMU1-V6=
igXCJRHjrwHjXtwdqRj5i-Rk&amp;s=3DO0SHa43zqaqXLDz3z2Ku-43lP8WVqsZzMgb2bbeET=
SI&amp;e=3D" class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;">microsoft.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and a possible DMARC policy =
problem.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have =
escalated the issue to the ietf action list and hopefully there is a =
solution.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Note: &nbsp;if you are aware of colleagues not getting this =
email (because the bouncing has caused them to be suspended), please let =
them know.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DwvMzgsjQoY9=
EeMU1-V6igXCJRHjrwHjXtwdqRj5i-Rk&amp;s=3Dw-agSjDXZmfSh0D2jdKcXXQbqql9Ir3-w=
jeqNRCQ56U&amp;e=3D" class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: =
underline;">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114); text-decoration: underline; orphans: 2; widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_B6B5102B-D0B7-4D22-B11F-7C8F4FBD37C7--


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Message-ID: <CAGdjJpKhn6N-H2-RCSAL+ffNp_99tZOQaapc4ig0ybLsqCD0pQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Phillip Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: [Id-event] Management API for SET Event Streams
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Earlier today I submitted the "Management API for SET Event Streams" I-D:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-simple-control-plane-00

The purpose is to compare a plain REST approach (provided by this I-D) with
a SCIM based approach in order to help select the best solution.

Marius

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Earlier today I submitted the &quot;Management API for SET=
 Event Streams&quot; I-D:<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
scurtescu-secevent-simple-control-plane-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-scurtescu-secevent-simple-control-plane-00</a></div><div><br></div><div>=
The purpose is to compare a plain REST approach (provided by this I-D) with=
 a SCIM based approach in order to help select the best solution.</div><div=
><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
</div></div>

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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 23:26:11 -0700
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Dick Hardt <dick@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Time slots for secevents
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Can we also get a time slot for "Management API for SET Event Streams"?
This is the plain REST control plane.

Either Annabelle or myself could present. Since Annabelle contributed a lot
to this I-D and since I am presenting two other documents, I think it would
be best if she could present.

Thanks,
Marius


Marius

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Phil
>
> Sorry you won't make it there. I think we had already anticipated these
> items in our agenda. Thanks for double checking.
>
> /Dick
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Chairs
>>
>> I would like to request time slots to discuss the following documents. As
>> I cannot make it, I am listing the proposed speakers:
>>
>> * SET Token - Mike to cover issues since Chicago
>> * SET Delivery - Marius, new individual draft proposal (to be posted
>> shortly) covering push and poll delivery
>> * Secevent usecases SCIM - Tony to present the scim use cases draft (to
>> be posted shortly)
>> * Secevent usecases RISC - Marius to present the RISC use cases draft
>>
>> Thanks to all the co-authors: Marius, Mike, Tony, Annabelle and Morteza
>> these past few weeks for helping to get these documents finished in time
>> for the group to review for Prague. I recognize everyone has had a lot of
>> limited time this quarter and appreciate the time.  As a result, I think
>> the drafts and our proposal has really improved.
>>
>> Thanks and sorry I can't be there!
>>
>> Phil
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Can we also get a time slot for &quot;Management API for S=
ET Event Streams&quot;? This is the plain REST control plane.<div><br></div=
><div>Either Annabelle or myself could present. Since Annabelle contributed=
 a lot to this I-D and since I am presenting two other documents, I think i=
t would be best if she could present.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div=
><div>Marius</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signat=
ure">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>Sorry you won&#39;t make=
 it there. I think we had already anticipated these items in our agenda. Th=
anks for double checking.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Chairs<br>
<br>
I would like to request time slots to discuss the following documents. As I=
 cannot make it, I am listing the proposed speakers:<br>
<br>
* SET Token - Mike to cover issues since Chicago<br>
* SET Delivery - Marius, new individual draft proposal (to be posted shortl=
y) covering push and poll delivery<br>
* Secevent usecases SCIM - Tony to present the scim use cases draft (to be =
posted shortly)<br>
* Secevent usecases RISC - Marius to present the RISC use cases draft<br>
<br>
Thanks to all the co-authors: Marius, Mike, Tony, Annabelle and Morteza the=
se past few weeks for helping to get these documents finished in time for t=
he group to review for Prague. I recognize everyone has had a lot of limite=
d time this quarter and appreciate the time.=C2=A0 As a result, I think the=
 drafts and our proposal has really improved.<br>
<br>
Thanks and sorry I can&#39;t be there!<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div></div><span c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div class=3D"m_-80408203367=
61418928gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"h=
ttp://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn ab=
out projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></span></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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+1 to typ.

So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> +1 to typ claim.
>
> Phil
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim
> requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.
> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the
> existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would lik=
e
> to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.
>
> Nat
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ok.
>>
>> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision
>> over the weekend.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understand it is new and that there is contention.
>>
>> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think
>> having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and
>> arrive at consensus or an alternative.
>>
>> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dick,
>>>
>>> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been an=
y
>>> (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It
>>> certainly came to me as a surprise.
>>>
>>> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not
>>> belong here at all.
>>>
>>> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5bi=
RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-=
_VGJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil
>>>
>>> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion
>>> on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of
>>> discussion going on now would you not agree?
>>>
>>> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a
>>> clear reference point for discussion there and then.
>>>
>>> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work=
.
>>> Am I missing something?
>>>
>>> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus
>>> when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree on the exp part.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>>>>
>>>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues i=
f
>>>> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>>>>
>>>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryptio=
n
>>>> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
>>>> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages beca=
use
>>>> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the d=
ata.
>>>>
>>>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and vali=
d
>>>> interpretation.
>>>>
>>>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>>>>
>>>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
>>>> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to th=
e "ID
>>>> Token" confusion concern.
>>>>
>>>> By making the "exp" claim that is already
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_=
evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>>>> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
>>>> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these tw=
o
>>>> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" =
to be
>>>> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modifica=
tion,
>>>> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
>>>> interest to do
>>>>
>>>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
>>>> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "=
iss"
>>>> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a =
way
>>>> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizabili=
ty
>>>> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the
>>>>> current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>>>>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D cla=
im when ID Tokens
>>>>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D is a required ID
>>>>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>>>>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in t=
he
>>>>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution=
 mandatory.
>>>>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed =
to
>>>>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>>>>> discussion since.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of
>>>>> SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SE=
Ts.
>>>>> The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims a=
nd
>>>>> event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the
>>>>> profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the
>>>>> procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys
>>>>> controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used
>>>>> in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may defi=
ne an
>>>>> algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss
>>>>> claim value as its input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipien=
t
>>>>> of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET=
 is
>>>>> both syntactically and semantically valid.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be
>>>>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late h=
as
>>>>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be consid=
ered
>>>>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are
>>>>> already factually accurate requirements but that were previously unst=
ated.
>>>>> The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedba=
ck on how to
>>>>> make these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 Best
>>>>> wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 --
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>>>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH
>>>> 0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUxKQ&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQf=
YZtYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfg=
BNGE&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZtYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45o=
XGQ&s=3D3Ud1v2pGXDw45g9FkmIwtWo45zdFG_NSgcjcf6kHnEw&e=3D>
>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZtYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-
>>> 02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgBNGE&e=3D
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3E=
ACg&s=3DfK8RXn01aixoYsClkkudgJGExH0ddv6Cv3KXFY4PtC0&e=3D>
>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DlFi9x3XzhB1OHw=
hVnmH2aridW1-w1TTcHB2HmekcrjM&s=3Dld0li4dqaj6S8muGsxpBcHBcY1PlyLBLJ-TcyErqz=
08&e=3D>
>>
> --
>
> Nat Sakimura
>
> Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 to typ.<div><br></div><div>So &quot;typ&quot;: &quot;se=
t&quot; or &quot;typ&quot;: &quot;event&quot;?</div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hu=
nt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>+1 to typ claim.=C2=A0<span class=3D=
"m_2092703807093064510HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>Phil</font></=
span></div><div><div class=3D"m_2092703807093064510h5"><div><br>On Jun 29, =
2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Sorry for a tardy reply, but=C2=A0+1 fo=
r the both changes. &#39;exp&#39; claim requirement is a good practical ste=
p with a backward compatibility.=C2=A0<div>Having said that, I believe infe=
rring message types from the existence/absence of a claim is not a good sec=
urity practice. I would like to see an explicit typing through &quot;typ&qu=
ot; claim added as well.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Nat</div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM=
 Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510=
m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Ap=
pleMailSignature">I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in =
a new revision over the weekend.=C2=A0</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div id=
=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-37922912116013894=
37m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature">Phil</div></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">I underst=
and it is new and that there is contention.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">We clearly want consensus for us to be done with =
the draft. I think having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we=
 can discuss and arrive at consensus or an alternative.=C2=A0</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So yes, is like a new draft posted so=
 we can discuss.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Jun=
 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Dick,</div><di=
v><br></div><div>The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that ha=
s not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the documen=
t.=C2=A0 It certainly came to me as a surprise.</div><div><br></div><div>I =
think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.=C2=A0 It may not belo=
ng here at all.</div><div><br></div><div>Please advise.=C2=A0 Do you want i=
t posted in spite of consensus?</div><div><br></div><div></div></div><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break=
-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;w=
ord-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_2092703=
807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-72861272757982014=
2Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;bor=
der-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architec=
t &amp; Standards</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKu=
gCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-=
_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_58158=
99636602158904m_-728612727579820142Apple-interchange-newline"></blockquote>=
</div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div><div>Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>wrt asking for more dis=
cussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It=
 does seem there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on now would yo=
u not agree?</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d like to get the doc updated i=
n time for Prague so that we have a clear reference point for discussion th=
ere and then.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Unclear why you would post a ch=
ange when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing something?</div><div=
><br></div><div>Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough=
 consensus when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Pra=
gue?</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hu=
nt (IDM) <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>I agree on the exp part.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m=
_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727=
579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_2=
092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-72861272757=
9820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature">Regarding the second part.=
 I would like to see more discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093=
064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-24=
67999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_209270380709306=
4510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467=
999192159738290AppleMailSignature">For example, in the the use cases, there=
 may be compatibility issues if different set profiles cannot be sent over =
the same stream.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-379229121160=
1389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290Appl=
eMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-37922912116013=
89437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleM=
ailSignature">Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.=C2=A0 =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages =
because the network relationship may define the requirements rather than th=
e data.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_=
5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSign=
ature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_58=
15899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignat=
ure">My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and vali=
d interpretation.=C2=A0<br><br>If the group agrees I will merge the exp and=
 post over the weekend.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-37922=
91211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738=
290AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291=
211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-246799919215973829=
0AppleMailSignature">I can merge the second part if there is a strong agree=
ment to do so.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-37922912116013=
89437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleM=
ailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389=
437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMai=
lSignature">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-379229121160138=
9437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-37922=
91211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142h5"><div><br>On Jun=
 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@googl=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>Thank you Mike for working on this. =
I&#39;m very happy with the change regarding the &quot;exp&quot; claim, and=
 believe it is the best resolution to the &quot;ID Token&quot; confusion co=
ncern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the &quot;exp&quot; claim that is=
 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKu=
gCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">already</a> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT=
, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired=
, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This al=
so allows &quot;sub&quot; to be used for its intended purpose (as defined b=
y RFC7519) without modification, which other working groups that wish to pr=
ofile SET have expressed an interest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The ben=
efit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a standard wa=
y to express events that won&#39;t conflict with ID Token (no &quot;iss&quo=
t; partitioning required). With Mike&#39;s changes we achieve that, and in =
a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizabil=
ity goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT&#39;s standard claims.</div><=
div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158=
904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290m_-1014693102770192708WordSec=
tion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a =
heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft b=
efore they are published.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID T=
oken / SET confusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level=
 =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the =
same issuer.=C2=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token cla=
im, SETs would
 therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The edit=
or=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provide=
s a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed
 to solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discu=
ssion since.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The second adds the following new section:<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
a><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span>=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:2=
4.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs conf=
orming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax =
defined by profiling
 specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by S=
ETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">D=
efining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is=
 equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures used=
 to validate the SET
 issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for =
cryptographic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance=
, some profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s=
 keys that uses the
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Ve=
rdana,sans-serif"> claim value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left=
:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
24.0pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:24.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">P=
rofile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of a =
SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is both sy=
ntactically and semantically
 valid. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers=
 about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much =
of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is equally im=
portant, and must be considered by profile writers and
 deployers.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statem=
ents that are already factually accurate requirements but that were previou=
sly unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements exp=
licit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements
 even more clear, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best w=
ishes,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>_______=
_______________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Id-event mail=
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-72=
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing li=
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/div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div data=
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</blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gma=
il_signature"><p dir=3D"ltr">Nat Sakimura</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation</p>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c0ca4eaf9548505532ffa93--


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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
Thread-Index: AdLwa3VhxmOh1ap9Sxqj4ofmRP4gvAAApZIAAACBMYAAJ1aBgAABJWgAAAHadAAAApHigAAEEu8AAACVdYAAIhDoAAAAmlLg
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/DTQvQpAhPK2SdxDt0ITvrmYWnVQ>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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From nobody Fri Jun 30 13:35:38 2017
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Subject: [Id-event] I-D Action: draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Security Events of the IETF.

        Title           : Security Event Token (SET)
        Authors         : Phil Hunt
                          William Denniss
                          Morteza Ansari
                          Michael B. Jones
	Filename        : draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2017-06-30

Abstract:
   This specification defines the Security Event Token, which may be
   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
   (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be
   optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
   fact from the perspective of an issuer that it intends to share with
   one or more receivers.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-secevent-token-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Jun 30 13:40:22 2017
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Thread-Topic: Security Event Token (SET) specification preventing token confusion
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/8nSrlr1i81_uXUeDnU6aUY2qAas>
Subject: [Id-event] Security Event Token (SET) specification preventing token confusion
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A new version of the Security Event Token (SET) specification has been publ=
ished containing measures that prevent any possibility of confusion between=
 ID Tokens and SETs.  Preventing confusion between SETs, access tokens, and=
 other kinds of JWTs is also covered.  Changes were:

  *   Added the Requirements for SET Profiles section.
  *   Expanded the Security Considerations section to describe how to preve=
nt confusion of SETs with ID Tokens, access tokens, and other kinds of JWTs=
.
  *   Registered the application/secevent+jwt media type and defined how to=
 use it for explicit typing of SETs.
  *   Clarified the misleading statement that used to say that a SET convey=
s a single security event.
  *   Added a note explicitly acknowledging that some SET profiles may choo=
se to convey event subject information in the event payload.
  *   Corrected an encoded claims set example.
  *   Applied grammar corrections.

This draft is intended to provide solutions to the issues that had been dis=
cussed in IETF 98 in Chicago and subsequently on the working group mailing =
list.  Thanks for all the great discussions that informed this draft!

The specification is available at:

  *   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02

An HTML-formatted version is also available at:

  *   http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.html

                                                                -- Mike

P.S.  This announcement was also posted at http://self-issued.info/?p=3D170=
9 and as @selfissued<https://twitter.com/selfissued>.

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A new version of the Security Event Token (SET) spec=
ification has been published containing measures that prevent any possibili=
ty of confusion between ID Tokens and SETs.&nbsp; Preventing confusion betw=
een SETs, access tokens, and other kinds
 of JWTs is also covered.&nbsp; Changes were:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2">Added the Requirements for SET Profiles section.<o:p></o:p></li><li c=
lass=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"=
>Expanded the Security Considerations section to describe how to prevent co=
nfusion of SETs with ID Tokens, access tokens, and other kinds of JWTs.<o:p=
></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">Registered the
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">application/secevent&#4=
3;jwt</span> media type and defined how to use it for explicit typing of SE=
Ts.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">Clarified the misleading statement that used to sa=
y that a SET conveys a single security event.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"M=
soListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">Added a =
note explicitly acknowledging that some SET profiles may choose to convey e=
vent subject information in the event payload.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"=
MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">Correct=
ed an encoded claims set example.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagr=
aph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">Applied grammar corr=
ections.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft is intended to provide solutions to the i=
ssues that had been discussed in IETF 98 in Chicago and subsequently on the=
 working group mailing list.&nbsp; Thanks for all the great discussions tha=
t informed this draft!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The specification is available at:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02">=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02</a><o:p></o:p></li=
></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An HTML-formatted version is also available at:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3"><a href=3D"http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.=
html">http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.html</a><o:=
p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P.S.&nbsp; This announcement was also posted at <a h=
ref=3D"http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1709">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1709</a> and as <a href=3D"https://twitter.com=
/selfissued">
@selfissued</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:48:54 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Security Event Token (SET) specification preventing token confusion
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Thank you Mike. It's good to see the SET - ID Token issue resolved, and the
other positive changes.

It would be good to publish SET soon, so the working groups that will be
profiling it can get going. With that in mind, should we initiate the WGLC?

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> A new version of the Security Event Token (SET) specification has been
> published containing measures that prevent any possibility of confusion
> between ID Tokens and SETs.  Preventing confusion between SETs, access
> tokens, and other kinds of JWTs is also covered.  Changes were:
>
>    - Added the Requirements for SET Profiles section.
>    - Expanded the Security Considerations section to describe how to
>    prevent confusion of SETs with ID Tokens, access tokens, and other kinds of
>    JWTs.
>    - Registered the application/secevent+jwt media type and defined how
>    to use it for explicit typing of SETs.
>    - Clarified the misleading statement that used to say that a SET
>    conveys a single security event.
>    - Added a note explicitly acknowledging that some SET profiles may
>    choose to convey event subject information in the event payload.
>    - Corrected an encoded claims set example.
>    - Applied grammar corrections.
>
>
>
> This draft is intended to provide solutions to the issues that had been
> discussed in IETF 98 in Chicago and subsequently on the working group
> mailing list.  Thanks for all the great discussions that informed this
> draft!
>
>
>
> The specification is available at:
>
>    - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
>
>
>
> An HTML-formatted version is also available at:
>
>    - http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.html
>
>
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  This announcement was also posted at http://self-issued.info/?p=1709
> and as @selfissued <https://twitter.com/selfissued>.
>

--001a114c46f4d96a590553338c88
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you Mike. It&#39;s good to see the SET - ID Token is=
sue resolved, and the other positive changes.<div><br></div><div>It would b=
e good to publish SET soon, so the working groups that will be profiling it=
 can get going. With that in mind, should we initiate the WGLC?</div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 30, 2=
017 at 1:40 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A new version of the Security Event Token (SET) spec=
ification has been published containing measures that prevent any possibili=
ty of confusion between ID Tokens and SETs.=C2=A0 Preventing confusion betw=
een SETs, access tokens, and other kinds
 of JWTs is also covered.=C2=A0 Changes were:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0=
in">Added the Requirements for SET Profiles section.<u></u><u></u></li><li =
class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">=
Expanded the Security Considerations section to describe how to prevent con=
fusion of SETs with ID Tokens, access tokens, and other kinds of JWTs.<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D=
"margin-left:0in">Registered the
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">application/secevent+jw=
t</span> media type and defined how to use it for explicit typing of SETs.<=
u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:0in">Clarified the misleading statement that used to say t=
hat a SET conveys a single security event.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m=
_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Added a no=
te explicitly acknowledging that some SET profiles may choose to convey eve=
nt subject information in the event payload.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D=
"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Correcte=
d an encoded claims set example.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-37138782=
17464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Applied grammar corr=
ections.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft is intended to provide solutions to the i=
ssues that had been discussed in IETF 98 in Chicago and subsequently on the=
 working group mailing list.=C2=A0 Thanks for all the great discussions tha=
t informed this draft!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The specification is available at:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0=
in"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent-token-=
02</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An HTML-formatted version is also available at:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0=
in"><a href=3D"http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.ht=
ml" target=3D"_blank">http://self-issued.info/docs/<wbr>draft-ietf-secevent=
-token-02.<wbr>html</a><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></=
u><u></u></font></span></li></ul><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888=
888">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
</font></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P.S.=C2=A0 This announcement was also posted at <a h=
ref=3D"http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1709" target=3D"_blank">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr>1709</a> and as <a href=3D"https://twitte=
r.com/selfissued" target=3D"_blank">
@selfissued</a>.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114c46f4d96a590553338c88--


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Cc: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for security events other than JWT, =
wouldn=E2=80=99t application/secevent suffice?

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> There had already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT =
BCP context, that if we were going to use a type identifier, we would =
use the existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not create a =
new claim.  This is a MIME type, with the ability to omit =
=E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if desired.
> =20
> Since there appears to be broad interest in having the ability to use =
explicit typing of the SET, I will plan to define the =
=E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft =
before publishing.  SETs could then include the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=80=9D header parameter =
value to provide explicit typing.  Unless I hear objections soon, I will =
proceed on this basis.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: William Denniss [mailto:wdenniss@google.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 AM
> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>; Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; =
id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
> =20
> +1 to typ.
> =20
> So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?
> =20
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> +1 to typ claim.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com =
<mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim =
requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.=20
> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the =
existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would =
like to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.=20
> =20
> Nat
> =20
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> Ok.=20
> =20
> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new =
revision over the weekend.=20
> =20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I understand it is new and that there is contention.=20
> =20
> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think =
having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and =
arrive at consensus or an alternative.=20
> =20
> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=20
> =20
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> Dick,
> =20
> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been =
any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It =
certainly came to me as a surprise.
> =20
> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not =
belong here at all.
> =20
> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_=
VGJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Phil
> =20
> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion =
on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of =
discussion going on now would you not agree?
> =20
> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a =
clear reference point for discussion there and then.
> =20
> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this =
work. Am I missing something?
> =20
> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus =
when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
> =20
> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> I agree on the exp part.=20
> =20
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
> =20
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues =
if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
> =20
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are =
manages because the network relationship may define the requirements =
rather than the data.=20
> =20
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and =
valid interpretation.=20
>=20
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20
> =20
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

> =20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
> =20
> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
> =20
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a =
standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> Hi folks,
> =20
> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
> =20
> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
> =20
> The second adds the following new section:
> =20
> Requirements for SET Profiles
> =20
> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
> =20
> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
> =20
> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient =
of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is =
both syntactically and semantically valid.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
> =20
> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
> =20
>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-=
CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUx=
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>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
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tYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgB=
NGE&e=3D>
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
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NGE&e=3D>
> =20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DlFi9x3XzhB1OHw=
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z08&e=3D>
> --=20
> Nat Sakimura
>=20
> Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--Apple-Mail=_567935BA-B9E5-4392-BE49-F6363BCD0FDC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for security events other =
than JWT, wouldn=E2=80=99t application/secevent suffice?<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 =
Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There had =
already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT BCP context, =
that if we were going to use a type identifier, we would use the =
existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not create a new =
claim.&nbsp; This is a MIME type, with the ability to omit =
=E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if desired.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Since there =
appears to be broad interest in having the ability to use explicit =
typing of the SET, I will plan to define the =
=E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft =
before publishing.&nbsp; SETs could then include the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=80=9D header parameter =
value to provide explicit typing.&nbsp; Unless I hear objections soon, I =
will proceed on this basis.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span =
class=3D""></span><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>William Denniss [<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:wdenniss@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 =
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Nat =
Sakimura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Heads-up =
about SET spec updates<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to typ.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">+1 to typ claim.&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: rgb(136, 136, =
136);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m2092703807093064510hoenzb">Phil</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On =
Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sorry for a tardy reply, but&nbsp;+1 =
for the both changes. 'exp' claim requirement is a good practical step =
with a backward compatibility.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Having said that, I =
believe inferring message types from the existence/absence of a claim is =
not a good security practice. I would like to see an explicit typing =
through "typ" claim added as well.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Nat<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at =
7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ok.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I spoke =
with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision over the =
weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at =
1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I understand it is new and =
that there is contention.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I =
think having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can =
discuss and arrive at consensus or an alternative.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So yes, is like a new draft posted so =
we can discuss.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, =
Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Dick,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has =
not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the =
document.&nbsp; It certainly came to me as a surprise.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think the issue of trust model needs =
to be discussed.&nbsp; It may not belong here at all.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Please advise.&nbsp; Do you want it =
posted in spite of consensus?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; =
Standards<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhz=
syQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56=
Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 =
PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">wrt asking for more discussion, I =
appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It does =
seem there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on now would you =
not agree?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we =
have a clear reference point for discussion there and then.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Unclear why you would post =
a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing =
something?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough =
consensus when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in =
Prague?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at =
5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 agree on the exp part.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regarding the second part. I would like =
to see more discussion.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For example, in the the use cases, =
there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles cannot be =
sent over the same stream.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Such profiles should avoid things like =
requiring signing and encryption without consideration regarding how =
they are transferred.&nbsp; Also key management might be better tied up =
in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may =
define the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My initial reaction is, the profiles =
should stick to the data and valid interpretation.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the =
weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I can merge the second part if there is =
a strong agreement to do so.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On =
Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thank you Mike for working =
on this. I'm very happy with the change regarding the "exp" claim, and =
believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" confusion =
concern.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">By making the "exp" claim that is<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">already</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the =
current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET =
uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs =
to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for =
its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which =
other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest =
to do<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard =
overall is a standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID =
Token (no "iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve =
that, and in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility =
and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's =
standard claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at =
5:08 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi folks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in =
the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The first =
solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring that =
SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens =
could also be generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by =
existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note that this solution is =
already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s =
draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The =
second adds the following new section:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Requirements for SET =
Profiles</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and =
semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for =
validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling specifications =
includes what claims and event payload values are used by SETs utilizing =
the profile.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing =
the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining =
the procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses =
the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>claim value as its =
input.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99=
s included to inform profile writers about what they must do to be able =
to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of the discussion as of late has =
been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I believe =
that the new section contains only statements that are already factually =
accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.&nbsp; The =
editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.&nbsp; Feedback =
on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of course, =
welcomed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
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0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
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0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
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0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
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class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
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class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"">Nat =
Sakimura<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">Chairman of the Board, =
OpenID Foundation<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
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inline !important;" =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/THf0431HG5JYD8slAl7pVTj1H3Q>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 14:07:41 -0700
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To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>,  Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Is application/secevent+jwt this following the RFC3023 pattern? i.e.
indicating that it's a secevent primarily, but also a JWT?

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for security events other than JWT, wo=
uldn=E2=80=99t
> application/secevent suffice?
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> There had already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT BCP
> context, that if we were going to use a type identifier, we would use the
> existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not create a new clai=
m.  This is a MIME
> type, with the ability to omit =E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space r=
easons, if desired.
>
> Since there appears to be broad interest in having the ability to use
> explicit typing of the SET, I will plan to define the
> =E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft bef=
ore publishing.
> SETs could then include the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=
=E2=80=9D header parameter value to
> provide explicit typing.  Unless I hear objections soon, I will proceed o=
n
> this basis.
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* William Denniss [mailto:wdenniss@google.com <wdenniss@google.com>=
]
>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 AM
> *To:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Cc:* Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
>;
> Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
>
> +1 to typ.
>
> So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1 to typ claim.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim
> requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.
> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the
> existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would lik=
e
> to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.
>
> Nat
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ok.
>
> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision
> over the weekend.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I understand it is new and that there is contention.
>
> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think havin=
g
> it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive =
at
> consensus or an alternative.
>
> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Dick,
>
> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been any
> (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It
> certainly came to me as a surprise.
>
> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not belon=
g
> here at all.
>
> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_V=
GJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Phil
>
> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion on
> behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of
> discussion going on now would you not agree?
>
> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a clea=
r
> reference point for discussion there and then.
>
> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this work.
> Am I missing something?
>
> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus whe=
n
> you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
> I agree on the exp part.
>
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if
> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption
> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages because
> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the data=
.
>
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid
> interpretation.
>
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "=
ID
> Token" confusion concern.
>
> By making the "exp" claim that is already
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_evk=
lX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>  NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two
> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to =
be
> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificatio=
n,
> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
> interest to do
>
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss=
"
> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way
> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability
> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current
> editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>
> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim w=
hen ID Tokens
> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID
> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in the
> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution man=
datory.
> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to
> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
> discussion since.
>
> The second adds the following new section:
>
> Requirements for SET Profiles
>
> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs
> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The
> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and event
> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>
> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile
> is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the procedures
> used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys controlled by the
> issuer that were used for cryptographic operations used in the JWT
> representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define an algorithm
> for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim value as its
> input.
>
> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient of
> a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is bot=
h
> syntactically and semantically valid.
>
> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do t=
o be able
> to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has been
> about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be considered by
> profile writers and deployers.
>
> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are already
> factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The
> editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on ho=
w to make
> these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>
>                                                                 Best
> wishes,
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
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> CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-
> nFaqUxKQ&e=3D
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZt=
YUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgBNG=
E&e=3D>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
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>
>
>
> --
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>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Id-event@ietf.org
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>
> --
>
> Nat Sakimura
>
> Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>

--001a1138eb9a05b4d8055333d042
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Is application/secevent+j=
wt this following the RFC3023 pattern? i.e. indicating that it&#39;s a sece=
vent primarily, but also a JWT?</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Justin Rich=
er <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blan=
k">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for =
security events other than JWT, wouldn=E2=80=99t application/secevent suffi=
ce?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0=E2=80=94 Justin</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br><div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876=
Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876WordSec=
tion1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font=
-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There had already been discu=
ssions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT BCP context, that if we were going =
to use a type identifier, we would use the existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D h=
eader parameter and not create a new claim.=C2=A0 This is a MIME type, with=
 the ability to omit =E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if d=
esired.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">Since there appears to be broad interest in having the ability to us=
e explicit typing of the SET, I will plan to define the =E2=80=9Capplicatio=
n/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft before publishing.=C2=A0=
 SETs could then include the =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=
=80=9D header parameter value to provide explicit typing.=C2=A0 Unless I he=
ar objections soon, I will proceed on this basis.<u></u><u></u></span></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_-5902027253=
108218876__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></a></div><span></span><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m=
_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>William Denniss [<=
a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:wdenniss@goo=
gle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span>Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 AM<br><b>To:</b><span cl=
ass=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt =
(IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Nat Sakimura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sakimur=
a@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Dick Hardt &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><=
span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re:=
 [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates<u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">+1 to typ.<u></u><u></u></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">So &quot;typ&quot=
;: &quot;set&quot; or &quot;typ&quot;: &quot;event&quot;?<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Thu, Jun=
 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"=
border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">+1 to typ claim.=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136=
,136)"><br><br><span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m2092703807093064510hoe=
nzb">Phil</span></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:sakimura@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Sorry for a tardy reply, but=C2=A0+1 for the both changes. &#39;exp&#39; cl=
aim requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Having said that, I believe inferring=
 message types from the existence/absence of a claim is not a good security=
 practice. I would like to see an explicit typing through &quot;typ&quot; c=
laim added as well.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Nat<u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Fri, Jun 30, 201=
7 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@=
oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"bor=
der-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(=
204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">Ok.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-59020272=
53108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904=
AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_=
-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636=
602158904AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I spoke with Mike and he will post h=
is changes to SET in a new revision over the weekend.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510=
m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_20927038=
07093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904AppleMailSignature"><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><br>On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.=
hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockq=
uote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
I understand it is new and that there is contention.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We c=
learly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think having it i=
n the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and arrive at con=
sensus or an alternative.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">So yes, is like a new draft pos=
ted so we can discuss.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil H=
unt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none =
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in =
0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dick,<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not =
been any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.=C2=
=A0 It certainly came to me as a surprise.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the issue of=
 trust model needs to be discussed.=C2=A0 It may not belong here at all.<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Please advise.=C2=A0 Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Phil<u></u><u></u></span></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standar=
ds<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>@independentid<u></=
u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJ=
C3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independe=
ntid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><div><bl=
ockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi =
Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the sugg=
estion on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount o=
f discussion going on now would you not agree?<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I&#39;d like to =
get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a clear reference po=
int for discussion there and then.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unclear why you would p=
ost a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing something?<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough cons=
ensus when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none=
 solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I agre=
e on the exp part.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-59020272531=
08218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-=
728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093=
064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-24=
67999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Regarding the second part. I=
 would like to see more discussion.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div id=
=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815=
899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignatur=
e"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218=
876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-72861=
2727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">For exampl=
e, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set=
 profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-379229121160138=
9437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMa=
ilSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-590202=
7253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_58158996366021589=
04m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption wit=
hout consideration regarding how they are transferred.=C2=A0 Also key manag=
ement might be better tied up in how the streams are manages because the ne=
twork relationship may define the requirements rather than the data.=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_209270380709306=
4510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467=
999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></di=
v><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389=
437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMai=
lSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to =
the data and valid interpretation.=C2=A0<br><br>If the group agrees I will =
merge the exp and post over the weekend.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_=
5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSign=
ature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-590202725310=
8218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I can =
merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_=
-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192=
159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
 id=3D"m_-5902027253108218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5=
815899636602158904m_-728612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSigna=
ture"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></div></div><div id=3D"m_-590202725310=
8218876m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature"><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>Ph=
il<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>On J=
un 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@goo=
gle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"=
>wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank you M=
ike for working on this. I&#39;m very happy with the change regarding the &=
quot;exp&quot; claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the &quot;ID=
 Token&quot; confusion concern.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">By making the &quot;exp&quot; c=
laim that is<span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaV=
QpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp=
;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">a=
lready</a><span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide t=
he ID Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these t=
wo types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows &quot;su=
b&quot; to be used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without=
 modification, which other working groups that wish to profile SET have exp=
ressed an interest to do<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The benefit the community will gain fr=
om the SET standard overall is a standard way to express events that won&#3=
9;t conflict with ID Token (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioning required). With=
 Mike&#39;s changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original=
 simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefin=
ing any of JWT&#39;s standard claims.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid=
;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0=
in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi folks,<u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I wanted to =
give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=
=99s draft before they are published.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET c=
onfusion problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cex=
p=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.=
=C2=A0 Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs wou=
ld therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note t=
hat this solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The ed=
itor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provi=
des a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF=
 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.<u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The second add=
s the following new section:<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 24pt 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:V=
erdana,sans-serif">Requirements for SET Profiles</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 24pt 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 24pt 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN" sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Profile Specifications=
 for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to that SET pr=
ofile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling =
specifications includes what claims and event payload values are used by SE=
Ts utilizing the profile.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 24pt 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">=C2=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 24pt 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Defining the semantics of the SET contents =
for SETs utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibly most importan=
t is defining the procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain =
the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operatio=
ns used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may de=
fine an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s keys that uses the<sp=
an class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana=
,sans-serif"><span class=3D"m_-5902027253108218876Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>claim value as its input.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 24pt 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 24pt 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font=
-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Profile Specifications MUST clea=
rly specify the steps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST=
 perform to validate that the SET is both syntactically and semantically va=
lid.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do t=
o be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 While much of the discussion as of la=
te has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be consi=
dered by profile writers and deployers.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I believe that the new section contains only =
statements that are already factually accurate requirements but that were p=
reviously unstated.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requiremen=
ts explicit.=C2=A0 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more cle=
ar, is of course, welcomed.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin=
-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
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--001a1138eb9a05b4d8055333d042--


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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
CC: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/akatM6-mPqWi72iaPZYhcAcMsU8>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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From nobody Fri Jun 30 14:12:01 2017
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Cc: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Eugh.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Jun 30, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> There may be a SAML encoding in the works.
> =20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> From: Justin Richer [mailto:jricher@mit.edu]=20
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 2:05 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>; Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>; =
id-event@ietf.org; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
> =20
> Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for security events other than JWT, =
wouldn=E2=80=99t application/secevent suffice?
> =20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
> =20
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> =20
> There had already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT =
BCP context, that if we were going to use a type identifier, we would =
use the existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not create a =
new claim.  This is a MIME type, with the ability to omit =
=E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if desired.
> =20
> Since there appears to be broad interest in having the ability to use =
explicit typing of the SET, I will plan to define the =
=E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft =
before publishing.  SETs could then include the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=80=9D header parameter =
value to provide explicit typing.  Unless I hear objections soon, I will =
proceed on this basis.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: William Denniss [mailto:wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>]=20
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 AM
> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Cc: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>>; =
Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>; Mike =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
> =20
> +1 to typ.
> =20
> So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?
> =20
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> +1 to typ claim.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com =
<mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim =
requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.=20
> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the =
existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would =
like to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.=20
> =20
> Nat
> =20
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> Ok.=20
> =20
> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new =
revision over the weekend.=20
> =20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I understand it is new and that there is contention.=20
> =20
> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think =
having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and =
arrive at consensus or an alternative.=20
> =20
> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=20
> =20
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> Dick,
> =20
> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been =
any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It =
certainly came to me as a surprise.
> =20
> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not =
belong here at all.
> =20
> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_=
VGJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Phil
> =20
> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the suggestion =
on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable amount of =
discussion going on now would you not agree?
> =20
> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a =
clear reference point for discussion there and then.
> =20
> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this =
work. Am I missing something?
> =20
> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus =
when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
> =20
> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> I agree on the exp part.=20
> =20
> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
> =20
> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues =
if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
> =20
> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are =
manages because the network relationship may define the requirements =
rather than the data.=20
> =20
> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and =
valid interpretation.=20
>=20
> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20
> =20
> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

> =20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
> =20
> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
> =20
> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a =
standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> Hi folks,
> =20
> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
> =20
> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
> =20
> The second adds the following new section:
> =20
> Requirements for SET Profiles
> =20
> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
> =20
> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
> =20
> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient =
of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET is =
both syntactically and semantically valid.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
> =20
> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
> =20
>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> =20
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>=20
>=20
> =20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Eugh.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jun 30, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There may =
be a SAML encoding in the works.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Justin Richer [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">mailto:jricher@mit.edu</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, June 30, 2017 2:05 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Nat Sakimura &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;; =
<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>; =
Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Heads-up =
about SET spec updates<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for =
security events other than JWT, wouldn=E2=80=99t application/secevent =
suffice?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 =
PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">There had already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in =
the JWT BCP context, that if we were going to use a type identifier, we =
would use the existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not =
create a new claim.&nbsp; This is a MIME type, with the ability to omit =
=E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if desired.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Since there appears to be broad interest in =
having the ability to use explicit typing of the SET, I will plan to =
define the =E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the =
SET draft before publishing.&nbsp; SETs could then include the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=80=9D header parameter =
value to provide explicit typing.&nbsp; Unless I hear objections soon, I =
will proceed on this basis.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><span class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>William Denniss [<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:wdenniss@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 =
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Nat Sakimura &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Heads-up =
about SET spec updates<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to typ.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to typ claim.&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m2092703807093064510hoenzb">Phil</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On =
Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sorry for a tardy reply, =
but&nbsp;+1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim requirement is a good =
practical step with a backward compatibility.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Having said that, I believe inferring =
message types from the existence/absence of a claim is not a good =
security practice. I would like to see an explicit typing through "typ" =
claim added as well.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Nat<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at =
7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ok.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision =
over the weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
understand it is new and that there is contention.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We clearly want consensus for us to be =
done with the draft. I think having it in the next draft anchors the =
discussion so we can discuss and arrive at consensus or an =
alternative.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So yes, is like a new draft posted so =
we can discuss.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at =
12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Dick,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The section is a brand new section. It =
seems to me that has not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant =
putting it in the document.&nbsp; It certainly came to me as a =
surprise.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think the issue of trust model needs =
to be discussed.&nbsp; It may not belong here at all.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Please advise.&nbsp; Do you want it =
posted in spite of consensus?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhz=
syQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56=
Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun =
29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">wrt asking for more discussion, I =
appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It does =
seem there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on now would you =
not agree?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I'd like to get the doc updated in time =
for Prague so that we have a clear reference point for discussion there =
and then.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Unclear why you would post =
a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing =
something?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mike: would you update the doc with =
what you think is rough consensus when you have time so that we can have =
a crisp discussion in Prague?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree on the exp part.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regarding the second part. =
I would like to see more discussion.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For example, in the the =
use cases, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles =
cannot be sent over the same stream.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Such profiles should avoid =
things like requiring signing and encryption without consideration =
regarding how they are transferred.&nbsp; Also key management might be =
better tied up in how the streams are manages because the network =
relationship may define the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My initial reaction is, =
the profiles should stick to the data and valid interpretation.&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the group agrees I will merge the exp and =
post over the weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I can merge the second =
part if there is a strong agreement to do so.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On =
Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thank you =
Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change regarding the =
"exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" =
confusion concern.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">By making the "exp" claim that is<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">already</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the =
current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET =
uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs =
to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for =
its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which =
other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest =
to do<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The benefit the community will gain =
from the SET standard overall is a standard way to express events that =
won't conflict with ID Token (no "iss" partitioning required). With =
Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the original =
simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not =
redefining any of JWT's standard claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi folks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I wanted to give you a heads-up about =
two SET spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they =
are published.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion =
problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D=
 claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; =
Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would =
therefore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note =
that this solution is already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; =
The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; =
This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to =
solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much =
discussion since.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The second adds the following new section:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 24pt; margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Requirements for SET =
Profiles</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 24pt; margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 24pt; =
margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and =
semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for =
validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling specifications =
includes what claims and event payload values are used by SETs utilizing =
the profile.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 24pt; margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 24pt; =
margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing =
the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining =
the procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses =
the<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">iss</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">claim value as its =
input.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
24pt; margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 24pt; =
margin-right: 24pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile =
writers about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.&nbsp; =
While much of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics =
is equally important, and must be considered by profile writers and =
deployers.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I believe that the new section contains only statements that =
are already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements =
explicit.&nbsp; Feedback on how to make these requirements even more =
clear, is of course, welcomed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
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Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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AFAIK, sub-profiles of a content format use the + notation as Mike =
indicates.

application/secevent+jwt makes sense. =20

I am about to publish a delivery draft contribution.  I will update it =
to use application/secevent+jwt instead of application/jwt.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> Unless there=E2=80=99s an encoding for security events other than JWT, =
wouldn=E2=80=99t application/secevent suffice?
>=20
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>> On Jun 30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> There had already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT =
BCP context, that if we were going to use a type identifier, we would =
use the existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not create a =
new claim.  This is a MIME type, with the ability to omit =
=E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if desired.
>> =20
>> Since there appears to be broad interest in having the ability to use =
explicit typing of the SET, I will plan to define the =
=E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft =
before publishing.  SETs could then include the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=80=9D header parameter =
value to provide explicit typing.  Unless I hear objections soon, I will =
proceed on this basis.
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: William Denniss [mailto:wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>]=20
>> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 AM
>> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> Cc: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>>; =
Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>; Mike =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
>> =20
>> +1 to typ.
>> =20
>> So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?
>> =20
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> +1 to typ claim.=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com =
<mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Sorry for a tardy reply, but +1 for the both changes. 'exp' claim =
requirement is a good practical step with a backward compatibility.=20
>> Having said that, I believe inferring message types from the =
existence/absence of a claim is not a good security practice. I would =
like to see an explicit typing through "typ" claim added as well.=20
>> =20
>> Nat
>> =20
>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> Ok.=20
>> =20
>> I spoke with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new =
revision over the weekend.=20
>> =20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> I understand it is new and that there is contention.=20
>> =20
>> We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I think =
having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can discuss and =
arrive at consensus or an alternative.=20
>> =20
>> So yes, is like a new draft posted so we can discuss.=20
>> =20
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> Dick,
>> =20
>> The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has not been =
any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the document.  It =
certainly came to me as a surprise.
>> =20
>> I think the issue of trust model needs to be discussed.  It may not =
belong here at all.
>> =20
>> Please advise.  Do you want it posted in spite of consensus?
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DDzhv_1aTAhzsyQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_=
VGJC3EACg&s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56Wabw24G0LA&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> Hi Phil
>> =20
>> wrt asking for more discussion, I appreciate you making the =
suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It does seem there is a reasonable =
amount of discussion going on now would you not agree?
>> =20
>> I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we have a =
clear reference point for discussion there and then.
>> =20
>> Unclear why you would post a change when it was Mike that did this =
work. Am I missing something?
>> =20
>> Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough consensus =
when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in Prague?
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> I agree on the exp part.=20
>> =20
>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.=20
>> =20
>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues =
if different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.=20
>> =20
>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and =
encryption without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  =
Also key management might be better tied up in how the streams are =
manages because the network relationship may define the requirements =
rather than the data.=20
>> =20
>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and =
valid interpretation.=20
>>=20
>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.=20=

>> =20
>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.=20=

>> =20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com =
<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change =
regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID Token" confusion concern.
>> =20
>> By making the "exp" claim that is already =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_e=
vklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D> NOT RECOMMENDED in the current =
draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET uniqueness =
guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs to be used =
with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for its intended =
purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which other =
working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest to do
>> =20
>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is =
a standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no =
"iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and =
in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and =
generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard =
claims.
>> =20
>> =20
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>> =20
>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the =
current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>> =20
>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by =
requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim =
when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore =
be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.  Note that this =
solution is already recommended in the specification.  The editor=E2=80=99=
s draft update makes this solution mandatory.  This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.
>> =20
>> The second adds the following new section:
>> =20
>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of =
SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. =
The syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and =
event payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>> =20
>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the =
profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the =
procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the =
iss claim value as its input.
>> =20
>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.
>> =20
>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must =
do to be able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of =
late has been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.
>> =20
>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are =
already factually accurate requirements but that were previously =
unstated.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit. =
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of =
course, welcomed.
>> =20
>>                                                                 Best =
wishes,
>>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>> =20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-=
CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUx=
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57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS=
-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqU=
xKQ&e=3D>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZ=
tYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgB=
NGE&e=3D>
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> --=20
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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NGE&e=3D>
>> =20
>> --=20
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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hVnmH2aridW1-w1TTcHB2HmekcrjM&s=3Dld0li4dqaj6S8muGsxpBcHBcY1PlyLBLJ-TcyErq=
z08&e=3D>
>> --=20
>> Nat Sakimura
>>=20
>> Chairman of the Board, OpenID Foundation
>>=20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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--Apple-Mail=_72578930-FC70-4F2D-96F4-670B51CFBBCB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">AFAIK, sub-profiles of a content format use the + notation as =
Mike indicates.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">application/secevent+jwt makes sense. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am about to publish a =
delivery draft contribution. &nbsp;I will update it to use =
application/secevent+jwt instead of application/jwt.<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 30, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Unless there=E2=80=99s =
an encoding for security events other than JWT, wouldn=E2=80=99t =
application/secevent suffice?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun =
30, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There had =
already been discussions, both in Chicago, and in the JWT BCP context, =
that if we were going to use a type identifier, we would use the =
existing =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D header parameter and not create a new =
claim.&nbsp; This is a MIME type, with the ability to omit =
=E2=80=9Capplication/=E2=80=9D for space reasons, if desired.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Since there =
appears to be broad interest in having the ability to use explicit =
typing of the SET, I will plan to define the =
=E2=80=9Capplication/secevent+jwt=E2=80=9D MIME type in the SET draft =
before publishing.&nbsp; SETs could then include the =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9Csecevent+jwt=E2=80=9D header parameter =
value to provide explicit typing.&nbsp; Unless I hear objections soon, I =
will proceed on this basis.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span =
class=3D""></span><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>William Denniss [<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:wdenniss@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, June 30, 2017 9:33 =
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Nat =
Sakimura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Heads-up =
about SET spec updates<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 to typ.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So "typ": "set" or "typ": "event"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">+1 to typ claim.&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: rgb(136, 136, =
136);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m2092703807093064510hoenzb">Phil</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On =
Jun 29, 2017, at 5:01 PM, Nat Sakimura &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sakimura@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">sakimura@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sorry for a tardy reply, but&nbsp;+1 =
for the both changes. 'exp' claim requirement is a good practical step =
with a backward compatibility.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Having said that, I =
believe inferring message types from the existence/absence of a claim is =
not a good security practice. I would like to see an explicit typing =
through "typ" claim added as well.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Nat<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at =
7:04 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ok.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I spoke =
with Mike and he will post his changes to SET in a new revision over the =
weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at =
1:51 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I understand it is new and =
that there is contention.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We clearly want consensus for us to be done with the draft. I =
think having it in the next draft anchors the discussion so we can =
discuss and arrive at consensus or an alternative.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So yes, is like a new draft posted so =
we can discuss.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, =
Jun 29, 2017 at 12:58 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Dick,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The section is a brand new section. It seems to me that has =
not been any (or limited) discussion to warrant putting it in the =
document.&nbsp; It certainly came to me as a surprise.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think the issue of trust model needs =
to be discussed.&nbsp; It may not belong here at all.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Please advise.&nbsp; Do you want it =
posted in spite of consensus?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; =
Standards<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DDzhv_1aTAhz=
syQq1UpCO7qiWxzAHJX8y-_VGJC3EACg&amp;s=3DfEVvFsEqkTmCpY6sIa_GV_S3Gy1gxhG56=
Wabw24G0LA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:25 =
PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">wrt asking for more discussion, I =
appreciate you making the suggestion on behalf of the chairs. It does =
seem there is a reasonable amount of discussion going on now would you =
not agree?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I'd like to get the doc updated in time for Prague so that we =
have a clear reference point for discussion there and then.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Unclear why you would post =
a change when it was Mike that did this work. Am I missing =
something?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Mike: would you update the doc with what you think is rough =
consensus when you have time so that we can have a crisp discussion in =
Prague?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at =
5:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 agree on the exp part.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regarding the second part. I would like =
to see more discussion.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For example, in the the use cases, =
there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles cannot be =
sent over the same stream.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Such profiles should avoid things like =
requiring signing and encryption without consideration regarding how =
they are transferred.&nbsp; Also key management might be better tied up =
in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may =
define the requirements rather than the data.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My initial reaction is, the profiles =
should stick to the data and valid interpretation.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the =
weekend.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I can merge the second part if there is =
a strong agreement to do so.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_2092703807093064510m_-3792291211601389437m_5815899636602158904m_-7=
28612727579820142m_-2467999192159738290AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On =
Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thank you Mike for working =
on this. I'm very happy with the change regarding the "exp" claim, and =
believe it is the best resolution to the "ID Token" confusion =
concern.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">By making the "exp" claim that is<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKug=
CH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfB=
y35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">already</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>NOT RECOMMENDED in the =
current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens and SET =
uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of JWTs =
to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to be used for =
its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modification, which =
other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an interest =
to do<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard =
overall is a standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID =
Token (no "iss" partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve =
that, and in a way that retains the original simplicity, extensibility =
and generalizability goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's =
standard claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at =
5:08 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi folks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in =
the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The first =
solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by requiring that =
SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim when ID Tokens =
could also be generated by the same issuer.&nbsp; Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by =
existing ID Token validation code.&nbsp; Note that this solution is =
already recommended in the specification.&nbsp; The editor=E2=80=99s =
draft update makes this solution mandatory.&nbsp; This provides a simple =
and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The =
second adds the following new section:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Requirements for SET =
Profiles</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and =
semantics of SETs conforming to that SET profile and rules for =
validating those SETs. The syntax defined by profiling specifications =
includes what claims and event payload values are used by SETs utilizing =
the profile.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
24pt 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing =
the profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining =
the procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys =
controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations =
used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may =
define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses =
the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>claim value as its =
input.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 24pt 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a =
recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that =
the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99=
s included to inform profile writers about what they must do to be able =
to use SETs securely.&nbsp; While much of the discussion as of late has =
been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be =
considered by profile writers and deployers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I believe =
that the new section contains only statements that are already factually =
accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.&nbsp; The =
editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.&nbsp; Feedback =
on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of course, =
welcomed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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&amp;m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D3s1GCc-3g2KU_=
pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUxKQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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KU_pN6HvWVHgWBJXs6OGPY8K-nFaqUxKQ&amp;e=3D</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DETbGIxRZLcQfYZtYUVk6T7HkwYGfXx-02wy3p45oXGQ&amp;s=3DlMSowbDnjUeXE=
7zLprGHSPRgxZMhEZuIqTkLTfgBNGE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Subscribe to the<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 18:17:12 -0400
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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Having the sender publish the key location or key directly in the message
has even more trust issues.

It is great for attackers if the receiver doesn't verify the key belongs to
the claimed issuer.

John B.


On Jun 29, 2017 2:02 PM, "Marius Scurtescu" <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote:

> +1 for exp
>
> If we allow only one profile per SET then maybe we need a profile URI and
> this URI should be present as a top level claim? Or even adding the profi=
le
> URI to the JWT header?
>
> Having to fully parse the SET to infer the profile based on event types
> only to very the signature does not sound right. Also, mapping from event
> type URIs to profiles is not clear. Imagine a receiver that accepts event=
s
> (it must validate at least syntax and signatures) then further distribute=
s
> them based on either audience or event type. You don't want to update thi=
s
> receiver every single time a profile adds a new event type.
>
> Another potential solution for key location is to have the transmitter
> explicitly publish it, as mentioned in another email thread.
>
> We still have one open issue: SET issuer vs sub context issuer. Asking
> profiles to deal with this does not sound safe nor enough to me.
>
> Marius
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree on exp.
>>
>> I think defining trust relationships should be in the profiles as they
>> may be quite different.
>>
>> That is why mixing events in the same message will be a problem.  I
>> thought we agreed on that.
>>
>> Trying to define a fixed trust relationship for the transport is likely
>> going to cause people to roll there own.
>>
>> Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see diffrences in
>> registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS and other
>> regulations.
>>
>> One size fits all is great if you are the one size.
>>
>> I do think we should encourage people to use JWKS URI discovers from
>> issuer meta-data based on the issuers well-known as a pattern that has
>> proven to be repeatable.
>>
>> It would be nice if we had those specs done in the IETF:)
>>
>> John B.
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I agree on the exp part.
>>
>> Regarding the second part. I would like to see more discussion.
>>
>> For example, in the the use cases, there may be compatibility issues if
>> different set profiles cannot be sent over the same stream.
>>
>> Such profiles should avoid things like requiring signing and encryption
>> without consideration regarding how they are transferred.  Also key
>> management might be better tied up in how the streams are manages becaus=
e
>> the network relationship may define the requirements rather than the dat=
a.
>>
>> My initial reaction is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid
>> interpretation.
>>
>> If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weekend.
>>
>> I can merge the second part if there is a strong agreement to do so.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Thank you Mike for working on this. I'm very happy with the change
>> regarding the "exp" claim, and believe it is the best resolution to the =
"ID
>> Token" confusion concern.
>>
>> By making the "exp" claim that is already
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01-23section-2D2.1&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D_XF994zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&s=3D5L9qqH_ev=
klX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6fZc3kJIXL2qfUWs&e=3D>
>>  NOT RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID
>> Tokens and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two
>> types of JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows "sub" to=
 be
>> used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificati=
on,
>> which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an
>> interest to do
>>
>> The benefit the community will gain from the SET standard overall is a
>> standard way to express events that won't conflict with ID Token (no "is=
s"
>> partitioning required). With Mike's changes we achieve that, and in a wa=
y
>> that retains the original simplicity, extensibility and generalizability
>> goals of SET by not redefining any of JWT's standard claims.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wanted to give you a heads-up about two SET spec updates in the
>>> current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are published.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion problem by
>>> requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D claim=
 when ID Tokens
>>> could also be generated by the same issuer.  Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D is a required ID
>>> Token claim, SETs would therefore be rejected by existing ID Token
>>> validation code.  Note that this solution is already recommended in the
>>> specification.  The editor=E2=80=99s draft update makes this solution m=
andatory.
>>> This provides a simple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to
>>> solve at IETF 98 in Chicago and that has been the subject of much
>>> discussion since.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The second adds the following new section:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Requirements for SET Profiles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Profile Specifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs
>>> conforming to that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The
>>> syntax defined by profiling specifications includes what claims and eve=
nt
>>> payload values are used by SETs utilizing the profile.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Defining the semantics of the SET contents for SETs utilizing the
>>> profile is equally important. Possibly most important is defining the
>>> procedures used to validate the SET issuer and to obtain the keys
>>> controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptographic operations us=
ed
>>> in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some profiles may define=
 an
>>> algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer's keys that uses the iss claim
>>> value as its input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Profile Specifications MUST clearly specify the steps that a recipient
>>> of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perform to validate that the SET i=
s
>>> both syntactically and semantically valid.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s included to inform profile writers about what they must do=
 to be
>>> able to use SETs securely.  While much of the discussion as of late has
>>> been about syntax, semantics is equally important, and must be consider=
ed
>>> by profile writers and deployers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the new section contains only statements that are alread=
y
>>> factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated.  The
>>> editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.  Feedback on =
how to make
>>> these requirements even more clear, is of course, welcomed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                                 Best
>>> wishes,
>>>
>>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>

--94eb2c0ca4ea6d716b055334c7ff
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto">Having the sender publish the key location or key directl=
y in the message has even more trust issues. =C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">It is great for attackers if the receiver doesn&#39;t=
 verify the key belongs to the claimed issuer. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">John B. =C2=A0<br><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On J=
un 29, 2017 2:02 PM, &quot;Marius Scurtescu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msc=
urtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribu=
tion"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">+1 for exp<div><br></=
div><div>If we allow only one profile per SET then maybe we need a profile =
URI and this URI should be present as a top level claim? Or even adding the=
 profile URI to the JWT header?</div><div><br></div><div>Having to fully pa=
rse the SET to infer the profile based on event types only to very the sign=
ature does not sound right. Also, mapping from event type URIs to profiles =
is not clear. Imagine a receiver that accepts events (it must validate at l=
east syntax and signatures) then further distributes them based on either a=
udience or event type. You don&#39;t want to update this receiver every sin=
gle time a profile adds a new event type.</div><div><br></div><div>Another =
potential solution for key location is to have the transmitter explicitly p=
ublish it, as mentioned in another email thread.</div><div><br></div><div>W=
e still have one open issue: SET issuer vs sub context issuer. Asking profi=
les to deal with this does not sound safe nor enough to me.</div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_-136582728395=
5356224gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></di=
v>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, John Bradl=
ey <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I agree on exp.<div><br></div><div>=
I think defining trust relationships should be in the profiles as they may =
be quite different.</div><div><br></div><div>That is why mixing events in t=
he same message will be a problem.=C2=A0 I thought we agreed on that.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Trying to define a fixed trust relationship for the tra=
nsport is likely going to cause people to roll there own.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Even in Connect for specific verticals like finance we see diffrenc=
es in registration etc to reflect the need to accommodate eIDS and other re=
gulations.</div><div><br></div><div>One size fits all is great if you are t=
he one size. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I do think we should encourage=
 people to use JWKS URI discovers from issuer meta-data based on the issuer=
s well-known as a pattern that has proven to be repeatable.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>It would be nice if we had those specs done in the IETF:)</=
div><div><br></div><div>John B.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224h5"><div>On Jun 2=
8, 2017, at 8:38 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=
=3D"m_-1365827283955356224m_-560954940641750550Apple-interchange-newline"><=
/div></div><div><div><div class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224h5"><div style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I agree on the=
 exp part.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Regarding the second part. I would like to =
see more discussion.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">For example, in the the use cases=
, there may be compatibility issues if different set profiles cannot be sen=
t over the same stream.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight=
:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Such profiles should avoid thi=
ngs like requiring signing and encryption without consideration regarding h=
ow they are transferred.=C2=A0 Also key management might be better tied up =
in how the streams are manages because the network relationship may define =
the requirements rather than the data.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">My initial reac=
tion is, the profiles should stick to the data and valid interpretation.=C2=
=A0<br><br>If the group agrees I will merge the exp and post over the weeke=
nd.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px">I can merge the second part if there is a strong a=
greement to do so.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Thanks!</div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fon=
t-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>Phil</div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>On J=
un 28, 2017, at 5:24 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you Mike for working =
on this. I&#39;m very happy with the change regarding the &quot;exp&quot; c=
laim, and believe it is the best resolution to the &quot;ID Token&quot; con=
fusion concern.</div><div><br></div><div>By making the &quot;exp&quot; clai=
m that is<span class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224m_-560954940641750550Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D01=
-23section-2D2.1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D_XF994=
zVn1_AeS-CzStqOQaVQpsdjjvfBy35S0o7tH0&amp;s=3D5L9qqH_evklX-HjDF8KkZ2e5bNa6f=
Zc3kJIXL2qfUWs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">already</a><span class=3D"m_-136=
5827283955356224m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>NO=
T RECOMMENDED in the current draft a MUST NOT, we can provide the ID Tokens=
 and SET uniqueness guarantee that is desired, allowing these two types of =
JWTs to be used with a common issuer. This also allows &quot;sub&quot; to b=
e used for its intended purpose (as defined by RFC7519) without modificatio=
n, which other working groups that wish to profile SET have expressed an in=
terest to do</div><div><br></div><div>The benefit the community will gain f=
rom the SET standard overall is a standard way to express events that won&#=
39;t conflict with ID Token (no &quot;iss&quot; partitioning required). Wit=
h Mike&#39;s changes we achieve that, and in a way that retains the origina=
l simplicity, extensibility and generalizability goals of SET by not redefi=
ning any of JWT&#39;s standard claims.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:0=
8 PM, Mike Jones<span class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224m_-560954940641750550A=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft<wbr>=
.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224m_-5609549406417505=
50Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-=
style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_-136582728395=
5356224m_-560954940641750550m_-1014693102770192708WordSection1"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wanted to give you a heads-up about two=
 SET spec updates in the current editor=E2=80=99s draft before they are pub=
lished.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The first solves the potential ID Token / SET confusion=
 problem by requiring that SETs not include a top-level =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D claim when ID Tokens could also be generated by the same issuer.=C2=A0 =
Because =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D is a required ID Token claim, SETs would ther=
efore be rejected by existing ID Token validation code.=C2=A0 Note that thi=
s solution is already recommended in the specification.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=
=80=99s draft update makes this solution mandatory.=C2=A0 This provides a s=
imple and durable solution to the problem we agreed to solve at IETF 98 in =
Chicago and that has been the subject of much discussion since.<u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>The second adds the following new section:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-rig=
ht:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D=
"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a><span style=3D"text-deco=
ration:none">Requirements for SET Profiles</span></a><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margi=
n-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Ve=
rdana,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Profile Spe=
cifications for SETs define the syntax and semantics of SETs conforming to =
that SET profile and rules for validating those SETs. The syntax defined by=
 profiling specifications includes what claims and event payload values are=
 used by SETs utilizing the profile.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt=
"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-righ=
t:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"=
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Defining the semantics of th=
e SET contents for SETs utilizing the profile is equally important. Possibl=
y most important is defining the procedures used to validate the SET issuer=
 and to obtain the keys controlled by the issuer that were used for cryptog=
raphic operations used in the JWT representing the SET. For instance, some =
profiles may define an algorithm for retrieving the SET issuer&#39;s keys t=
hat uses the<span class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224m_-560954940641750550Apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">iss</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><span class=3D"m_-136582=
7283955356224m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>claim=
 value as its input.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-right:24pt;margin-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:24pt;marg=
in-left:24pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Profile Specifications MUST clearly spe=
cify the steps that a recipient of a SET utilizing that profile MUST perfor=
m to validate that the SET is both syntactically and semantically valid.<sp=
an class=3D"m_-1365827283955356224m_-560954940641750550Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s included to inform profil=
e writers about what they must do to be able to use SETs securely.=C2=A0 Wh=
ile much of the discussion as of late has been about syntax, semantics is e=
qually important, and must be considered by profile writers and deployers.<=
u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">I believe that the new section contains only statements that ar=
e already factually accurate requirements but that were previously unstated=
.=C2=A0 The editor=E2=80=99s draft makes these requirements explicit.=C2=A0=
 Feedback on how to make these requirements even more clear, is of course, =
welcomed.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></di=
v></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fon=
t-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;w=
hite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><span>____________________________=
__<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br><s=
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From: Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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On 2017-07-01 00:17, John Bradley wrote:
> Having the sender publish the key location or key directly in the
> message has even more trust issues.  
> 
> It is great for attackers if the receiver doesn't verify the key belongs
> to the claimed issuer.  

key location essentially ties you to the webpki for trust... we've been
here before


From nobody Fri Jun 30 16:24:27 2017
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Security Event Token (SET) specification preventing token confusion
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+1=20

Appears useful and stable enough now to initiate the WGLC.

- Mark

> On 30 Jun 2017, at 21:48, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Mike. It's good to see the SET - ID Token issue resolved, =
and the other positive changes.
>=20
> It would be good to publish SET soon, so the working groups that will =
be profiling it can get going. With that in mind, should we initiate the =
WGLC?
>=20
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
> A new version of the Security Event Token (SET) specification has been =
published containing measures that prevent any possibility of confusion =
between ID Tokens and SETs.  Preventing confusion between SETs, access =
tokens, and other kinds of JWTs is also covered.  Changes were:
>=20
> Added the Requirements for SET Profiles section.
> Expanded the Security Considerations section to describe how to =
prevent confusion of SETs with ID Tokens, access tokens, and other kinds =
of JWTs.
> Registered the application/secevent+jwt media type and defined how to =
use it for explicit typing of SETs.
> Clarified the misleading statement that used to say that a SET conveys =
a single security event.
> Added a note explicitly acknowledging that some SET profiles may =
choose to convey event subject information in the event payload.
> Corrected an encoded claims set example.
> Applied grammar corrections.
> =20
>=20
> This draft is intended to provide solutions to the issues that had =
been discussed in IETF 98 in Chicago and subsequently on the working =
group mailing list.  Thanks for all the great discussions that informed =
this draft!
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The specification is available at:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02>
> =20
>=20
> An HTML-formatted version is also available at:
>=20
> http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.html =
<http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.html>
> =20
>=20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
> P.S.  This announcement was also posted at =
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1709 <http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1709> =
and as @selfissued <https://twitter.com/selfissued>.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">+1&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; line-height: =
normal;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#002060" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">Appears useful&nbsp;and stable enough now to&nbsp;initiate =
the WGLC.</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; line-height: =
normal;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D"">- =
Mark</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; line-height: normal;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 30 Jun 2017, at 21:48, William Denniss &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Thank you Mike. It's good to see the SET - ID =
Token issue resolved, and the other positive changes.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It would be good to publish SET soon, =
so the working groups that will be profiling it can get going. With that =
in mind, should we initiate the WGLC?</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, =
Jun 30, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">A=
 new version of the Security Event Token (SET) specification has been =
published containing measures that prevent any possibility of confusion =
between ID Tokens and SETs.&nbsp; Preventing confusion between SETs, =
access tokens, and other kinds
 of JWTs is also covered.&nbsp; Changes were:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Added the Requirements for SET Profiles =
section.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li><li =
class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Expanded the Security Considerations section =
to describe how to prevent confusion of SETs with ID Tokens, access =
tokens, and other kinds of JWTs.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Registered the
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" =
class=3D"">application/secevent+jwt</span> media type and defined how to =
use it for explicit typing of SETs.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Clarified the misleading statement that used =
to say that a SET conveys a single security event.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Added a note explicitly acknowledging that =
some SET profiles may choose to convey event subject information in the =
event payload.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li><li =
class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Corrected an encoded claims set example.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li><li =
class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in">Applied grammar corrections.<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This =
draft is intended to provide solutions to the issues that had been =
discussed in IETF 98 in Chicago and subsequently on the working group =
mailing list.&nbsp; Thanks for all the great discussions that informed =
this draft!<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The specification is available at:<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in"><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-secevent-token-02</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u=
 class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">An HTML-formatted version is =
also available at:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"m_-3713878217464806824MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:0in"><a =
href=3D"http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.html" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://self-issued.info/docs/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-secevent-token-02.<wbr class=3D"">html</a><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></font></span></li></ul><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</font></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">P.S.&nbsp; This announcement =
was also posted at <a href=3D"http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1709" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
http://self-issued.info/?p=3D<wbr class=3D"">1709</a> and as <a =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/selfissued" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">
@selfissued</a>.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Heads-up about SET spec updates
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I=E2=80=99m not sure where this fork in the thread came from.  So, I=E2=80=
=99m not exactly sure I=E2=80=99m responding to the right thing.

If this is related to my comment, I was concerned that trust bindings =
should not be part of SET profiles as this might create major =
incompatibilities for cases with SETs from multiple Event Families need =
to be distributed as part of a common stream.=20

My thinking is that the Trust relationship is part of the Stream more =
than it is a particular type or set of SETS.

It=E2=80=99s not that somebody can=E2=80=99t do something highly =
specific. I just don=E2=80=99t think they should unless their intention =
really is to limit usability.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se> wrote:
>=20
> On 2017-07-01 00:17, John Bradley wrote:
>> Having the sender publish the key location or key directly in the
>> message has even more trust issues. =20
>>=20
>> It is great for attackers if the receiver doesn't verify the key =
belongs
>> to the claimed issuer. =20
>=20
> key location essentially ties you to the webpki for trust... we've =
been
> here before
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure where this fork in the thread came from. =
&nbsp;So, I=E2=80=99m not exactly sure I=E2=80=99m responding to the =
right thing.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If this =
is related to my comment, I was concerned that trust bindings should not =
be part of SET profiles as this might create major incompatibilities for =
cases with SETs from multiple Event Families need to be distributed as =
part of a common stream.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My thinking is that the Trust =
relationship is part of the Stream more than it is a particular type or =
set of SETS.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s not that somebody can=E2=80=99t do something =
highly specific. I just don=E2=80=99t think they should unless their =
intention really is to limit usability.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 30, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Leif Johansson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leifj@sunet.se" class=3D"">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 2017-07-01 00:17, John Bradley wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Having the sender =
publish the key location or key directly in the<br class=3D"">message =
has even more trust issues. &nbsp;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is =
great for attackers if the receiver doesn't verify the key belongs<br =
class=3D"">to the claimed issuer. &nbsp;<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">key location essentially ties you to the webpki for trust... =
we've been<br class=3D"">here before<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
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1xdZeH4rZPTR0ZBhPia27R_gUgszBulmc&amp;e=3D <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 22:35:32 -0400
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We were replying to the post by Marius in the thred.  Look at my reply.
Leif over snipped.

John B.

On Jun 30, 2017 7:26 PM, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m not sure where this fork in the thread came from.  So, I=E2=80=
=99m not exactly
sure I=E2=80=99m responding to the right thing.

If this is related to my comment, I was concerned that trust bindings
should not be part of SET profiles as this might create major
incompatibilities for cases with SETs from multiple Event Families need to
be distributed as part of a common stream.

My thinking is that the Trust relationship is part of the Stream more than
it is a particular type or set of SETS.

It=E2=80=99s not that somebody can=E2=80=99t do something highly specific. =
I just don=E2=80=99t
think they should unless their intention really is to limit usability.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect & Standards
@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com

On Jun 30, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se> wrote:

On 2017-07-01 00:17, John Bradley wrote:

Having the sender publish the key location or key directly in the
message has even more trust issues.

It is great for attackers if the receiver doesn't verify the key belongs
to the claimed issuer.


key location essentially ties you to the webpki for trust... we've been
here before

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>We were replying to the post by Marius in the thred.=
=C2=A0 Look at my reply.=C2=A0 Leif over snipped.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">John B.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jun 30, 201=
7 7:26 PM, &quot;Phil Hunt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I=E2=80=99m not sure where =
this fork in the thread came from.=C2=A0 So, I=E2=80=99m not exactly sure I=
=E2=80=99m responding to the right thing.<div><br></div><div>If this is rel=
ated to my comment, I was concerned that trust bindings should not be part =
of SET profiles as this might create major incompatibilities for cases with=
 SETs from multiple Event Families need to be distributed as part of a comm=
on stream.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>My thinking is that the Trust rel=
ationship is part of the Stream more than it is a particular type or set of=
 SETS.</div><div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s not that somebody can=E2=80=99=
t do something highly specific. I just don=E2=80=99t think they should unle=
ss their intention really is to limit usability.</div><div><div class=3D"qu=
oted-text"><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div><span class=3D"m_-4809360847069284973Apple-style-span" style=3D"bo=
rder-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D=
"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect &amp; Standards</div><div>@i=
ndependentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_=
blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"m=
ailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"elided-text"><div>On=
 Jun 30, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Leif Johansson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leifj@sunet=
.se" target=3D"_blank">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-4=
809360847069284973Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div><div><div class=3D"=
elided-text">On 2017-07-01 00:17, John Bradley wrote:<br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite">Having the sender publish the key location or key directly in the=
<br>message has even more trust issues. =C2=A0<br><br>It is great for attac=
kers if the receiver doesn&#39;t verify the key belongs<br>to the claimed i=
ssuer. =C2=A0<br></blockquote><br>key location essentially ties you to the =
webpki for trust... we&#39;ve been<br>here before<br><br>__________________=
____________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"m=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <340e0d5f-03c5-efbd-f2ba-2725530da424@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 20:59:48 -0700
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/mHBlDCaaVNTPF5ARYV0rbGDIylc>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use case document
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Hi Mike,

I think the abstract explains it very clearly: "This document describes 
the RISC use cases for security events and helps with defining the 
requirements for token format and event distribution."

This is a useful document in the secevent context (though not a working 
group document). In addition, Marius is free of course to republish his 
document in RISC or elsewhere.

Thanks,

     Yaron


On 29/06/17 17:17, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> Wearing my OpenID member hat – why isn’t this a RISC working group 
> document, rather than an SECEVENT working group document?
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *Marius Scurtescu
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2017 4:42 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; SecEvent 
> <id-event@ietf.org>; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>; Phil Hunt (IDM) 
> <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use case document
>
> I just submitted the RISC use cases at:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-risc-use-cases-00
>
> It is very basic right now, I just wanted to make sure that there is 
> at least a basic version submitted before the deadline.
>
> I will expand the descriptions and add diagrams.
>
> Let me know if anyone else would like to be an author.
>
> Marius
>
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com 
> <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Agreed. There is no requirement for these to be in the same document.
>
>     On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)
>     <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
>         Marius,
>
>         Go ahead an submit as an individual draft. I will submit scim
>         cases in a separate draft.
>
>         Afaik there is no plan to have this he a single wg document.
>
>         Phil
>
>
>         On May 31, 2017, at 9:22 PM, Marius Scurtescu
>         <mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>
>             Here is an initial use case document, for now it has only
>             the RISC use cases we discussed so far. When Phil gets
>             back I will coordinate with him to add SCIM use cases to
>             this same I-D. I will get this into a decent shape for the
>             IETF meeting.
>
>
>             Marius
>
>             On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer
>             <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                 Whatever works for you - and that's the whole point of
>                 *individual* I-Ds.
>
>                 Thanks,
>
>                     Yaron
>
>                 On 04/05/17 18:25, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>
>                     Do we need one document for all use cases (all
>                     profiles) or one for each profiles?
>
>                     I am happy to create the one document or the one
>                     for RISC (if one per profile).
>
>
>                     Marius
>
>                     On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:36 AM, Yaron Sheffer
>                     <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com
>                     <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                         My strong preference would be an individual
>                         I-D that (as Justin says) will NOT be pushed
>                         to RFC. Why an I-D at all? Because this is
>                         what IETF folks are used to, and it is
>                         referenced from the WG agenda and minutes.
>
>                         Thanks,
>
>                             Yaron
>
>                         On 04/05/17 07:57, Justin Richer wrote:
>
>                             In fact, I’m going to ask that we *not*
>                             push a use cases document toward RFC. Use
>                             case documents are wonderful tools for
>                             guiding development, but should be
>                             discarded as artifacts of that process
>                             once said process is completed (or even
>                             well on its way).
>
>                             As such, RFC, wiki, blog post, or anything
>                             referenced from the list and easily
>                             findable works.
>
>                              — Justin
>
>                                 On May 3, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Dick Hardt
>                                 <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>                                 <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                                 As the more experienced chair, I will
>                                 defer to Yaron for guidance.
>
>                                 So far no one has expected it to be
>                                 adopted as an RFC
>
>                                 On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Phil
>                                 Hunt<phil.hunt@oracle.com
>                                 <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>wrote:
>
>                                     Depends on what the WG wants.
>
>                                     Email cases,
>
>                                     Github posted document,
>
>                                     Individual IDs posted to the
>                                     working group, or
>
>                                     an ID that gets adopted as a WG
>                                     draft to end up as RFC (e.g. JOSE
>                                     has RFC7165, and SCIM itself had
>                                     RFC7642, Oauth had a WG
>                                     drafthttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-use-cases-03
>                                     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Doauth-2Duse-2Dcases-2D03&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=gwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=_t4GRDPaCMns1jW640uMNo_o5BHH8kJCCQXUTLi9Qak&e=>).
>
>                                     Let us know what form and what format.
>
>                                     We can also use one for OpenID
>                                     Backchannel Logout.  This is
>                                     particularly important because it
>                                     will be triggered by (or is
>                                     related to) SCIM and by RISC
>                                     events such as account resets,
>                                     authentication factor changes etc.
>
>                                     Phil
>
>                                     Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud
>                                     Services Architect & Standards
>
>                                     @independentid
>
>                                     www.independentid.com
>                                     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=gwGItrqQynlr86zXGtWnR-LWrcrcTS6Ly1w14yDo0vk&s=5rKXnv7GYvvsJ5huPmoGI3PpP85fUnQZrrKByzbbmYA&e=>
>
>                                     phil.hunt@oracle.com
>                                     <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>                                         On May 3, 2017, at 4:31 PM,
>                                         Dick Hardt
>                                         <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>                                         <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>                                         wrote:
>
>                                         Hi Phil
>
>                                         per
>
>                                         https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI
>                                         <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mailarchive.ietf.org_arch_msg_id-2Devent_FGuz9IsUMKqKeq2OjEBjCZ9cBcI&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=bAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=ebhqgdwBfmclFpVn-cScD6uoiYqkmZVlRpC3XXk91Es&e=>
>
>                                         you offered to put them in a
>                                         WG doc (see quate below).
>                                         Would that not be an ID. Also,
>                                         as I read over the document,
>                                         it is hard to follow what the
>                                         use cases are as it is very
>                                         verbose.
>
>                                         On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:27
>                                         AM, Phil Hunt
>                                         <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>                                         <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt>;
>                                         wrote:
>
>                                         > All,
>
>                                         >
>
>                                         > Dick asked me if I would enumerate the SCIM use cases.  Here is the SCIM
>
>                                         > case. Happy to put these somewhere in a working group document.
>
>                                         On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:16
>                                         PM, Phil
>                                         Hunt<phil.hunt@oracle.com
>                                         <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>wrote:
>
>                                             My understanding was you
>                                             wanted informal cases not
>                                             IDs. The SCIM cases have
>                                             been posted to the mailing
>                                             list. I believe Marius is
>                                             close on the RISC cases.
>
>                                             Phil
>
>                                             Oracle Corporation,
>                                             Identity Cloud Services
>                                             Architect & Standards
>
>                                             @independentid
>
>                                             www.independentid.com
>                                             <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=bAI2H661a1QkItfplrd3RIM36dgAhF4WdbWxW8BOy4Q&s=nBNO3_d_Mw4enpU54VxuTcoqCJSXkSSzg8LnXIkI5bg&e=>
>
>                                             phil.hunt@oracle.com
>                                             <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>                                                 On May 3, 2017, at
>                                                 3:56 PM, Dick Hardt
>                                                 <dick.hardt@gmail.com
>                                                 <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>                                                 wrote:
>
>                                                 Phil / Marius
>
>                                                 At the Chicago
>                                                 meeting, the two of
>                                                 you agreed to work on
>                                                 a document containing
>                                                 use cases you
>                                                 considered to be
>                                                 relevant for secevent
>                                                 so that the WG could
>                                                 decide which ones were
>                                                 in scope and which
>                                                 ones were out of scope.
>
>                                                 Checking in on the
>                                                 status of the use case
>                                                 document. Would you
>                                                 provide an update when
>                                                 you have a chance?
>
>                                                 /Dick
>
>                                                 _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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>             <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.txt>
>
>             <draft-scurtescu-secevent-use-cases.pdf>
>
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