From nobody Thu Jun 1 01:34:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02982127136 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:34:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8KDnNW8ySkGv for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2478712706D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DHR87667; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:33:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMI415-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.86.210.48) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:33:54 +0100 Received: from SZXEMI508-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.10.154]) by SZXEMI415-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.86.210.48]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:33:46 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Uma Chunduri CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHS2jZ2e/PNFODRoUWJ3h66M6A23qIOP72AgAASxgCAAVm9IA== Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:33:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018BC2AF@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE0104F6C8SZXEMI508MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.592FD174.0114, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.10.154, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 370d666a4272636a82bd0ea4cd42a1a8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:34:02 -0000 --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE0104F6C8SZXEMI508MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGFkbWEsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHdlbGwgZWRpdGVkIGRyYWZ0LiBJIGhhdmUgYSBw cm9ibGVtIHdpdGggdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBzZW50ZW5jZToNCj4+IFRoZSBJZGVudGl0eSBFbmFi bGVkIE5ldHdvcmtzIChJREVBUykgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBpcyBjaGFydGVyZWQgdG8gZGV2ZWxv cCBhIGZyYW1ld29yayB0aGF0IHByb3ZpZGVzIHNlcnZpY2VzIHRoYXQgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8g YWRkcmVzcyB0aG9zZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgYW5kIHRoYXQgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgd2l0aCBhbnkg aWRlbnRpdHktYmFzZWQgcHJvdG9jb2wuDQoNCkRvZXMgaXQgbWVhbiB0aGF0IHRoZSBJREVBUyBm cmFtZXdvcmsgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgYnkgQUxMIEVYSVNUSU5HIElELWJhc2VkIHByb3RvY29scywg YXMgd2VsbCBhcyBBTEwgRlVUVVJFIElELWJhc2UgcHJvdG9jb2xzPyBJZiBhbnlib2R5IGRlc2ln bnMgYSBuZXcgSUQgcHJvdG9jb2wgaW4gSUVURiBpbiB0aGUgZnV0dXJlLCB0aGUgcHJvdG9jb2wg 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<644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0DFAE47B@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:29:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045f562eb5dcd80550e7b316" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 15:29:31 -0000 --f403045f562eb5dcd80550e7b316 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex Note taken. Padma On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Alexander Clemm < alexander.clemm@huawei.com> wrote: > Overall this looks fine to me. However, the deliverables section should > probably be a bit more specific, in particular given the scope of the > charter. In addition to =E2=80=9Coverall architecture=E2=80=9D, there wi= ll need to be > deliverables for the other points as well, specifically interfaces for ea= ch > of the distinct services that are taken into the charter and the data > exchanged across these interfaces. > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Saturday, May 13, 2017 5:08 PM > *To:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter > Proposal > > > > Hello IDEAS > > > > The deadline for a request for a BOF for IETF99 in July is 6/02/2017 and > just a few weeks away. > > > > Please see below a tentative charter proposal. We would like to have inpu= t > from the list regarding the charter. We would like to hear from you > regarding the scope of work and your interests. > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group focuses on the > framework to implement a common control plane for identifier=E2=80=93loc= ation > separation protocols. > > > > The identifier-enabled solutions and applications are increasingly being > considered to support mobility solutions across heterogeneous access > networks, Internet of Things, Machine to Machine (M2M), context aware > applications and security. Due to the diverse nature of devices and > applications, it may not be possible to deploy a single protocol end to > end. A common control plane will address siloes in discovery and > communications. Moreover, a common control plane will address the > technical and operational hurdle to deployment and interoperability of > solutions. > > > > The working group will specify an overall architecture for a common > control plane and services for identity-enabled technology. More > specifically these services will include: > > =C2=B7 registration and lifecycle management of identities and assoc= iated > identifiers > > =C2=B7 identifier binding to location(s), > > =C2=B7 support for grouping, > > =C2=B7 definition and enforcement of policies > > =C2=B7 support for metadata. > > Additionally, the control plane interface and protocol extensions that > allow clients to communicate with that infrastructure will be covered. > > > > The abstraction provided by a secured identity will give a new level of > control for confidentiality, accountability, security and access-control. > The working group will cover these aspects and balance them with the > minimized storage of data and privacy considerations. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas: > > > > Overall architecture: This work covers the control plane, management, > policy control, and security aspects. > > > > Manageability of the architecture: The working group will cover the > management aspects of IDEAS architectural components and the services tha= t > they provide. > > > > Interface to the architecture: This work will cover interface interaction= s > between the framework and identifier-enabled protocol. > > > > Where appropriate, the IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Group= s > to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Overall architecture > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki > > to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > ..... > > > > > > Milestones > > TBD > --f403045f562eb5dcd80550e7b316 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex

Note taken.

Padma

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Alexander Clemm &= lt;alexande= r.clemm@huawei.com> wrote:

Overall this looks fine to me.=C2=A0 = However, the deliverables section should probably be a bit more specific, i= n particular given the scope of the charter.=C2=A0 In addition to =E2=80=9Coverall architecture=E2=80=9D, there will need to be deliverab= les for the other points as well, specifically interfaces for each of the d= istinct services that are taken into the charter and the data exchanged acr= oss these interfaces.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 5:08 PM
To: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Subject: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Chart= er Proposal

=C2=A0

Hello IDEAS

=C2=A0

The deadline for a request for a BOF for IETF99 in J= uly is 6/02/2017 and just a few weeks away.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Please see below a tentative charter proposal. We wo= uld like to have input from the list regarding the charter. We would like t= o hear from you regarding the scope of work and your interests.

=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group = focuses on the framework =C2=A0to implement a common control plane for iden= tifier=E2=80=93location separation protocols.

=C2=A0

The identifier-enabled solutions and applications ar= e increasingly being considered to support mobility solutions across hetero= geneous access networks, Internet of Things, Machine to Machine (M2M), context aware applications and security.=C2=A0 Due to th= e diverse nature of devices and applications, it may not be possible to dep= loy a single protocol end to end. A common control plane will address siloe= s in discovery and communications.=C2=A0 Moreover, a common control plane will address the technical and operational hurdle t= o deployment and interoperability of solutions.

=C2=A0

The working group will specify an overall architectu= re for=C2=A0 a common control plane and services for identity-enabled techn= ology.=C2=A0 More specifically these services will include:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 registration and lifecycle management of identities and associated i= dentifiers

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 identifier binding to location(s),

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 support for grouping,

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition and enforcement of policies

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 support for metadata.=C2=A0

Additionally, the control plane interface and protoc= ol extensions that allow clients to communicate with that infrastructure wi= ll be covered.

=C2=A0

The abstraction provided by a secured identity will = give a new level of control for confidentiality, accountability, security a= nd access-control. The working group will cover these aspects and balance them with the minimized storage of data and privacy co= nsiderations.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on t= hese areas:

=C2=A0

Overall architecture: This work covers the control p= lane, management, policy control, and security aspects.

=C2=A0

Manageability of the architecture: The working group= will cover the management aspects of IDEAS architectural components and th= e services that they provide.

=C2=A0

Interface to the architecture: This work will cover = interface interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protoco= l.

=C2=A0

Where appropriate, the IDEAS WG will collaborate wit= h other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and o= ther relevant work.

=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Overall architecture

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

=C2=A0

These documents may not necessarily be published, bu= t may be

maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Wor= king Group wiki

to support the efforts of the Working Group and help= new comers:

-Problem statement

-Use cases

-Requirements

.....

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Milestones=C2=A0

TBD


--f403045f562eb5dcd80550e7b316-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 08:30:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B236A1294FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:30:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVy46YswbD9g for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D04212953F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id b84so163210141wmh.0 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:30:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VPeuMC562yk8D/D0KycYp/C1YqHdd3bk8fE/+f228lc=; b=YSOpYUaV3Mm1PNqJx6FTUpiB+7YEJ2t96Nbi890ITZJj4UWuUJWy0/KPfXtp718G+9 wx/giGchPs696nfP0D59m65Di7ZP9fEmgNll/J/DbPAZ1MaGaR0cTqtE0CJf8Nw+g+X8 IKf92OXDxeHMvaa9n1ETKxhevFsB4r/QkFDubRp9zfbvkAPhWWkJTVH48xcGWX0DxRzW cXqffgd+P3K5dmUmigBdU84yXm4a7JlPUGfSWRsi3cdljLOy7PFyPfLpPd2xnGowTAmh egchXt05dx5yC6v3cD3E0C7DMFJiSFiTe7INwUulTQBOphqchsg+RW2kHtaezsEIqWQS Tbcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VPeuMC562yk8D/D0KycYp/C1YqHdd3bk8fE/+f228lc=; b=MCRrQENA+9oUtl/pDwyUQl256QMFAgfi9XpgFr7iyvYiH2X6OaETUNkbi7PM0PFxTO CUafQbKd8F5Q/UxoyyFoPqZDhPpdqWQhJKvvVpb7RThvDTTDmdCRd08DKc9FXxPpfSvs QdBvqbn661YjDsCbQBZX5M7m9/IXOp5JKNUO3HH4KhdLaowFCXql+c9GEZBb1kI9YQqt H1kOE8YOdrLTllVbHK9cKd0WN7oajK3YRiTkiC0pQX/hEBBHsMlfP8/N+cKejTsy9waa OhXxciAFaroStcBE5kwKd+2pS/kFuLTPC8r6xUJ1wNibZunzSmNXmQJ6mQVqitz6ebCP aNxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAySIiwc5V6+gnrwG1ixdbLtWOtWSDwfo3T1eB8vBO/a8a7TWH8 8xNM9GyJYxdMShUmkUrs45AZMI0g0w== X-Received: by 10.223.139.81 with SMTP id v17mr2005211wra.70.1496331004434; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:30:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.73 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018BC2AF@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:30:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" Cc: Uma Chunduri , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e982afc66450550e7b578" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 15:30:11 -0000 --f403045e982afc66450550e7b578 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bingyang On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: > Hi Padma, > > > > Thanks for the well edited draft. I have a problem with the following > sentence: > > >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address > those requirements and that can be used with *any* identity-based protoco= l > . > > > > Does it mean that the IDEAS framework can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-base= d > protocols, as well as ALL FUTURE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a > new ID protocol in IETF in the future, the protocol should follow the > framework? Maybe IDEAS should have a more conservative goal than that. > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM > *To:* Uma Chunduri > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hi Uma > > > > Thanks for your review! > > > > Agree with your comments - will update > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Uma Chunduri > wrote: > > Thanks for more refined version, which does reflect lot of discussion in > the mailing-list on the charter. > > Have few comments in-line below [Uma]: > > > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM > *To:* ideas@ietf.org > *Cc:* Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hello IDEAS > > > > Thank you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal. > > This version aims to capture your suggestions and comments. > > Please note that the document went through editorial changes for > consistency, clarity and balance. > > > > I have also posted a version of it on GITHUB > > https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal/blob/master/ > IDEAS%20Charter%20Proposal > > > > Your comments and feedback welcome. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Identity-enabled solutions and applications are increasingly being > considered to support mobility solutions and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), > Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G services, as well as context aware > applications all can take advantage of discovery, stricter privacy and > security functions. > > > > Identifier-locator separation protocols are examples of technology that > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure is needed to address new requirements that go > well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of > identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > > Examples of such requirements are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well= . > Indeed, the identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restrictio= n > and flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > > [Uma]: The above depicts the gap in current identifier-location protocols > rather than requirement. May be you might want to add something similar > to=E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public ident= ifiers and also > for anonymizing the communication without being pinned by > man-in-the-middle=E2=80=9D. > > - Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users > may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and network elements > may wish to have a certain degree of control over this information to > define who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communications > should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity > and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage > unsolicited traffic or conceal their sensitive information to > eavesdroppers. > > - Interoperability across id-locator infrastructures: > > [Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-locator (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can = be used for both > Identity and Identifier at this point) > > In IoT, often technology specific solutions drive different naming and > addressing scheme leading to deploying disjoint systems. However, several > IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are > able to interoperate and exchange information when deployed over differen= t > administrative domains. > > - Low Latency: The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency > for mission critical applications as well as quality user experience > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address > those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol. > > [Uma]: identity-based protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-based protocol?? > > The framework includes the identifier-locator infrastructure and a common > control plane for identifier related services and identifier=E2=80=93loca= tion > separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate th= e > dynamic discovery of the various naming/addressing schemes and the > communication between these heterogeneous environments > > Such communication may also imply some negotiation capabilities, e.g., > when several Mapping Systems are managed by different entities. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > > > Features and properties: > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities associated > identifiers. > > - Definition of policies related to identities (e.g. access control to > discovery) > > - Anonymization support (e.g. identifier anonymity to eavesdroppers) > > - Authenticated identity (access to framework, update of information for > identifiers) > > - Definition and enforcement of policies (e.g. ability to look up an > identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic, =E2=80=A6) > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming..) > > - Metadata support (e.g. entity or endpoint attributes and properties). > > - Endpoint grouping support (e.g. negotiation to join, leave and > communicate) > > - Robustness of the system against DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access= , > rate limiting) > > > > The scope of system should be flexible and allow for different scopes suc= h > as local(private) or global(public). The scope of the mappings and their > relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking o= f > information. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private t= o > global systems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and > minimizing latency. > > > > The working group will balance the requirements for performance of the > framework to provide secured, trustworthy, and robust communication > services with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations. > > The method for updating, caching and dissemination or leaking of > information will be covered to ensure that state consistency and efficien= cy. > > [Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe method for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new Protocol= or an existing > Protocol extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > > The working group will cover the management aspects of IDEAS architectura= l > components and the services that they provide. The working group will > identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface > interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work . Furthermor= e, > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Overall Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki > > to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > Aug 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > > > --f403045e982afc66450550e7b578 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bingyang



On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33= AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubingyang@huawei.com> wrote= :

Hi Padma,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the well edited draft. I = have a problem with the following sentence:

>>= ; The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op a framework that provides services that can be used to address those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol.

=C2=A0

Does it mean that the IDEAS f= ramework can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-based protocols, as well as ALL FUT= URE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a new ID protocol in IETF in the future, the protocol should follow the framework? Maybe IDE= AS should have a more conservative goal than that.

=C2=A0

Bingyang (Bryan)

=C2=A0

From: = Ideas [mailto:i= deas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>


Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hi Uma

=C2=A0

Thanks for your review!<= u>

=C2=A0

Agree with your comments - will= update

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 A= M, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:

Thanks for more refine= d version, which does reflect lot of discussion in the mailing-list on the charter.<= /a>

Have few comments in-l= ine below [Uma]:<= /u>

=C2=A0

--

Uma C.

=C2=A0

From: = Ideas [mailto:ideas-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM
To: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hello= IDEAS

=C2= =A0

Thank= you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal.

This = version aims to capture your suggestions and comments.

Pleas= e note that the document went through editorial changes for consistency, cl= arity and balance.

=C2= =A0

I hav= e also posted a version of it on GITHUB =C2=A0<= u>

=C2= =A0

Your = comments and feedback welcome.

=C2= =A0

Thank= s

Padma=

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

Propo= sed Charter=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Identity-enabled solutions and = applications are increasingly being considered to support mobility solution= s and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G servic= es, as well as context aware applications all can take advantage of discove= ry, stricter privacy and security functions.

=C2=A0

Identifier-locator separation p= rotocols are examples of technology that require infrastructure that allows= nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2=A0 However, additional infrastructu= re is needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditiona= l discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delive= ry.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Examples of such requirements a= re:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Privacy: =C2=A0Th= e use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up = a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, the identifier-lo= cation pairs can be looked up without restriction and flows can be pinned by anyb= ody to specific end systems.

[Uma]: The above depic= ts the gap in current identifier-location protocols rather than requirement. May be you might want to add =C2=A0something similar to=E2=80= =93 =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public identifiers and= also for anonymizing the communication without being pinned by man-in-the-= middle=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and net= work elements may wish to have a certain degree of control over this inform= ation to define who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communicati= ons should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. This in= direction should help discourage unsolicited traffic or conceal their sensi= tive information to eavesdroppers.

-=C2=A0 Interoperability across= id-locator infrastructures:

[Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-loca= tor (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can be used for both Identity and Identifier at this point)

In IoT, often technology specif= ic solutions drive different naming and addressing scheme leading to deploy= ing disjoint systems. However, several IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are able to interoperate a= nd exchange information when deployed over different administrative domains= .=C2=A0

=C2=A0-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Low Latency= : The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency for mission criti= cal applications as well as quality user experience

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (= IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a framework that provides serv= ices that can be used to address those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol.

[Uma]: identity-based = protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-base= d protocol??

The framework includes the iden= tifier-locator infrastructure and a common control plane for identifier rel= ated services and identifier=E2=80=93location separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate the dynamic discovery of = the various naming/addressing schemes and the communication between these h= eterogeneous environments

Such communication may also imp= ly some negotiation capabilities, e.g., when several Mapping Systems are ma= naged by different entities.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is c= hartered to work on these areas for the framework:

=C2=A0

Features and properties:=

- Registration and lifecycle ma= nagement of identities associated identifiers.

- Definition of policies relate= d to identities (e.g. access control to discovery)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Anonymization support (e.g. i= dentifier anonymity to eavesdroppers)

- Authenticated identity (acces= s to framework, update of information for identifiers)

- Definition and enforcement of= policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwa= rding traffic, =E2=80=A6)

- Identifier/locator mapping an= d resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming..)<= /p>

- Metadata support (e.g. entity= or endpoint attributes and properties).

- Endpoint grouping support (e.= g. negotiation to join, leave and communicate)

- Robustness of the system agai= nst DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access, rate limiting)

=C2=A0

The scope of system should be f= lexible and allow for different scopes such as local(private) or global(pub= lic). The scope of the mappings and their relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking of informati= on. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private to global sy= stems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and minimizing lat= ency.

=C2=A0

The working group will balance = the requirements for performance of the framework to provide secured, trust= worthy, and robust communication services with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations.

The method for updating, cachin= g and dissemination or leaking of information will be covered to ensure tha= t state consistency and efficiency.

[Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe me= thod for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new = Protocol or an existing Protocol=C2=A0extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D

The working group will cover th= e management aspects of IDEAS architectural components and the services tha= t they provide. The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface interactions betw= een the framework and identifier-enabled protocols

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate w= ith other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and= other relevant work . Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:=

Overall Identity Services Frame= work

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational doc= uments may include:

=C2=A0

These documents may not necessa= rily be published, but may be

maintained in a draft form or o= n a collaborative Working Group wiki

to support the efforts of the W= orking Group and help new comers:

-Problem statement

-Use cases=

-Requirements

- Applications of the architect= ure for use cases

=C2=A0

Milestones

Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the= Identity Services framework

May 2018 WGLC for the Identity = Services framework

Aug 2018 Send Identity Services= framework draft to the IESG

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--f403045e982afc66450550e7b578-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 08:32:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B720C12ECC3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXammpLYEIPD for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DB2F129549 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id n195so37219363wmg.1 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:32:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T2tfdGi9l95wuz7hW1NvHUo8EY8pPTX1FEBDvj7gOM0=; b=Rpvmq0YbzDcsKLw/jEEgCIyavZuf3HhFzWGk9yPjl2YoqkgnTl2wBoXOTx5Piw+smG 0OQIRHjzfX3KpNY2FgHkRi5BfZCKvFmqAcdPo52Th9heNUfUY10ChYl1PrXXP4TkhiGV 6PqweV1yLcRW4m/m8J491v2ZkBsaqh5jN/OOaQukAj5kI4Rj5yop1sLxP+Os+lFgmCYV 6wAQ/7mlGKx9eKMCoNVmm4xYP+A5mgJ9WL7eZa3sb5/qlmMP536N9aqz4MKKVvTXEaqY lS8UmcCzypHK5dml/rqJAegbEr4c0hyDqczfWdOJIdsgazeAjUuSOIIJsaEhKEIbCIek Apug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T2tfdGi9l95wuz7hW1NvHUo8EY8pPTX1FEBDvj7gOM0=; b=DZHHBM+bd5nVWXRZFVOo1ACUkP0Zf2cTeg5jzcWLNWr30SjaHNBsOoS1YU6IEmSiTB Ta+VhOElD8D4mLzgfQZTj1oArNK4qQSKix+Pi+5dpP9lNDoABkm/8xcZfDMhk2q+fEOj 1AUjTbTcN9GHF/n8HivMz3MpnbBi6vv6JL764ufTGsQ+QWVPjkjFYbN3QGtXCkgZa7h6 rsgUFBU+wd+qEDi5KGZgCUaqPdTuNweE/od0dcj2SzLuGK/rk+9DRB6DxDSoLOqpQEEB H3NX3OJE9Fa8wV1UBHN0BAJ4r/1NPG1iH+Dae29Xj8D5uRKrsV1ZZF+Zerj/pkjqHW8N E7PA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBlTmEic2vzCjXSY64q/7oaCDYKtahrEKia3DpPeHMLgZTtgMhL ZrIHjfMSX5nl70em3O5aBwyf6KCddQ== X-Received: by 10.28.38.68 with SMTP id m65mr2326569wmm.25.1496331144047; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.73 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:32:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018BC2AF@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:32:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" Cc: Uma Chunduri , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c03fc364eb6b80550e7be14" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 15:32:30 -0000 --94eb2c03fc364eb6b80550e7be14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bingyang On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: > Hi Padma, > > > > Thanks for the well edited draft. I have a problem with the following > sentence: > > >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address > those requirements and that can be used with *any* identity-based protoco= l > . > > > > Does it mean that the IDEAS framework can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-base= d > protocols, as well as ALL FUTURE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a > new ID protocol in IETF in the future, the protocol should follow the > framework? Maybe IDEAS should have a more conservative goal than that. > > > How about change "with any" to "by"? I think this should clarify that protocols could use this framework should they wish to do so. Thanks Padma > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM > *To:* Uma Chunduri > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hi Uma > > > > Thanks for your review! > > > > Agree with your comments - will update > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Uma Chunduri > wrote: > > Thanks for more refined version, which does reflect lot of discussion in > the mailing-list on the charter. > > Have few comments in-line below [Uma]: > > > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM > *To:* ideas@ietf.org > *Cc:* Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hello IDEAS > > > > Thank you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal. > > This version aims to capture your suggestions and comments. > > Please note that the document went through editorial changes for > consistency, clarity and balance. > > > > I have also posted a version of it on GITHUB > > https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal/blob/master/ > IDEAS%20Charter%20Proposal > > > > Your comments and feedback welcome. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Identity-enabled solutions and applications are increasingly being > considered to support mobility solutions and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), > Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G services, as well as context aware > applications all can take advantage of discovery, stricter privacy and > security functions. > > > > Identifier-locator separation protocols are examples of technology that > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure is needed to address new requirements that go > well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of > identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > > Examples of such requirements are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well= . > Indeed, the identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restrictio= n > and flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > > [Uma]: The above depicts the gap in current identifier-location protocols > rather than requirement. May be you might want to add something similar > to=E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public ident= ifiers and also > for anonymizing the communication without being pinned by > man-in-the-middle=E2=80=9D. > > - Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users > may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and network elements > may wish to have a certain degree of control over this information to > define who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communications > should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity > and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage > unsolicited traffic or conceal their sensitive information to > eavesdroppers. > > - Interoperability across id-locator infrastructures: > > [Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-locator (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can = be used for both > Identity and Identifier at this point) > > In IoT, often technology specific solutions drive different naming and > addressing scheme leading to deploying disjoint systems. However, several > IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are > able to interoperate and exchange information when deployed over differen= t > administrative domains. > > - Low Latency: The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency > for mission critical applications as well as quality user experience > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address > those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol. > > [Uma]: identity-based protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-based protocol?? > > The framework includes the identifier-locator infrastructure and a common > control plane for identifier related services and identifier=E2=80=93loca= tion > separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate th= e > dynamic discovery of the various naming/addressing schemes and the > communication between these heterogeneous environments > > Such communication may also imply some negotiation capabilities, e.g., > when several Mapping Systems are managed by different entities. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > > > Features and properties: > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities associated > identifiers. > > - Definition of policies related to identities (e.g. access control to > discovery) > > - Anonymization support (e.g. identifier anonymity to eavesdroppers) > > - Authenticated identity (access to framework, update of information for > identifiers) > > - Definition and enforcement of policies (e.g. ability to look up an > identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic, =E2=80=A6) > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming..) > > - Metadata support (e.g. entity or endpoint attributes and properties). > > - Endpoint grouping support (e.g. negotiation to join, leave and > communicate) > > - Robustness of the system against DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access= , > rate limiting) > > > > The scope of system should be flexible and allow for different scopes suc= h > as local(private) or global(public). The scope of the mappings and their > relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking o= f > information. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private t= o > global systems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and > minimizing latency. > > > > The working group will balance the requirements for performance of the > framework to provide secured, trustworthy, and robust communication > services with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations. > > The method for updating, caching and dissemination or leaking of > information will be covered to ensure that state consistency and efficien= cy. > > [Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe method for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new Protocol= or an existing > Protocol extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > > The working group will cover the management aspects of IDEAS architectura= l > components and the services that they provide. The working group will > identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface > interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work . Furthermor= e, > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Overall Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki > > to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > Aug 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > > > --94eb2c03fc364eb6b80550e7be14 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bingyang

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubi= ngyang@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Padma,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the well edited draft. I = have a problem with the following sentence:

>>= ; The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op a framework that provides services that can be used to address those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol.

=C2=A0

Does it mean that the IDEAS f= ramework can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-based protocols, as well as ALL FUT= URE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a new ID protocol in IETF in the future, the protocol should follow the framework? Maybe IDE= AS should have a more conservative goal than that.

=C2=A0

=

How about change "with any" to &= quot;by"?
I think this should clarify that protocols could u= se this framework should they wish to do so.

Thank= s
Padma
=C2=A0

<= /p>

Bingyang (Bryan)

=C2=A0

From: = Ideas [mailto:i= deas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>


Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hi Uma

=C2=A0

Thanks for your review!<= u>

=C2=A0

Agree with your comments - will= update

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 A= M, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:

Thanks for more refine= d version, which does reflect lot of discussion in the mailing-list on the charter.<= /a>

Have few comments in-l= ine below [Uma]:<= /u>

=C2=A0

--

Uma C.

=C2=A0

From: = Ideas [mailto:ideas-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM
To: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hello= IDEAS

=C2= =A0

Thank= you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal.

This = version aims to capture your suggestions and comments.

Pleas= e note that the document went through editorial changes for consistency, cl= arity and balance.

=C2= =A0

I hav= e also posted a version of it on GITHUB =C2=A0<= u>

=C2= =A0

Your = comments and feedback welcome.

=C2= =A0

Thank= s

Padma=

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

Propo= sed Charter=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Identity-enabled solutions and = applications are increasingly being considered to support mobility solution= s and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G servic= es, as well as context aware applications all can take advantage of discove= ry, stricter privacy and security functions.

=C2=A0

Identifier-locator separation p= rotocols are examples of technology that require infrastructure that allows= nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2=A0 However, additional infrastructu= re is needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditiona= l discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delive= ry.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Examples of such requirements a= re:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Privacy: =C2=A0Th= e use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up = a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, the identifier-lo= cation pairs can be looked up without restriction and flows can be pinned by anyb= ody to specific end systems.

[Uma]: The above depic= ts the gap in current identifier-location protocols rather than requirement. May be you might want to add =C2=A0something similar to=E2=80= =93 =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public identifiers and= also for anonymizing the communication without being pinned by man-in-the-= middle=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and net= work elements may wish to have a certain degree of control over this inform= ation to define who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communicati= ons should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. This in= direction should help discourage unsolicited traffic or conceal their sensi= tive information to eavesdroppers.

-=C2=A0 Interoperability across= id-locator infrastructures:

[Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-loca= tor (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can be used for both Identity and Identifier at this point)

In IoT, often technology specif= ic solutions drive different naming and addressing scheme leading to deploy= ing disjoint systems. However, several IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are able to interoperate a= nd exchange information when deployed over different administrative domains= .=C2=A0

=C2=A0-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Low Latency= : The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency for mission criti= cal applications as well as quality user experience

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (= IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a framework that provides serv= ices that can be used to address those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol.

[Uma]: identity-based = protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-base= d protocol??

The framework includes the iden= tifier-locator infrastructure and a common control plane for identifier rel= ated services and identifier=E2=80=93location separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate the dynamic discovery of = the various naming/addressing schemes and the communication between these h= eterogeneous environments

Such communication may also imp= ly some negotiation capabilities, e.g., when several Mapping Systems are ma= naged by different entities.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is c= hartered to work on these areas for the framework:

=C2=A0

Features and properties:=

- Registration and lifecycle ma= nagement of identities associated identifiers.

- Definition of policies relate= d to identities (e.g. access control to discovery)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Anonymization support (e.g. i= dentifier anonymity to eavesdroppers)

- Authenticated identity (acces= s to framework, update of information for identifiers)

- Definition and enforcement of= policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwa= rding traffic, =E2=80=A6)

- Identifier/locator mapping an= d resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming..)<= /p>

- Metadata support (e.g. entity= or endpoint attributes and properties).

- Endpoint grouping support (e.= g. negotiation to join, leave and communicate)

- Robustness of the system agai= nst DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access, rate limiting)

=C2=A0

The scope of system should be f= lexible and allow for different scopes such as local(private) or global(pub= lic). The scope of the mappings and their relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking of informati= on. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private to global sy= stems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and minimizing lat= ency.

=C2=A0

The working group will balance = the requirements for performance of the framework to provide secured, trust= worthy, and robust communication services with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations.

The method for updating, cachin= g and dissemination or leaking of information will be covered to ensure tha= t state consistency and efficiency.

[Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe me= thod for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new = Protocol or an existing Protocol=C2=A0extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D

The working group will cover th= e management aspects of IDEAS architectural components and the services tha= t they provide. The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface interactions betw= een the framework and identifier-enabled protocols

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate w= ith other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and= other relevant work . Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:=

Overall Identity Services Frame= work

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational doc= uments may include:

=C2=A0

These documents may not necessa= rily be published, but may be

maintained in a draft form or o= n a collaborative Working Group wiki

to support the efforts of the W= orking Group and help new comers:

-Problem statement

-Use cases=

-Requirements

- Applications of the architect= ure for use cases

=C2=A0

Milestones

Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the= Identity Services framework

May 2018 WGLC for the Identity = Services framework

Aug 2018 Send Identity Services= framework draft to the IESG

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--94eb2c03fc364eb6b80550e7be14-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 18:17:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CD7129B91 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8uNc2ADJ0vI for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D724B129B7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DHT06566; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 01:17:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMI414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.86.210.49) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 02:17:04 +0100 Received: from SZXEMI508-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.10.154]) by SZXEMI414-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.86.210.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:16:52 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: Uma Chunduri , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHS2jZ2e/PNFODRoUWJ3h66M6A23qIOP72AgAASxgCAAVm9IP//8b6AgAEnnwA= Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 01:16:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018BC2AF@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE0104F82ASZXEMI508MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090206.5930BC92.01C7, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.10.154, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 370d666a4272636a82bd0ea4cd42a1a8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0DSL-5cu0zLg for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22d.google.com (mail-wr0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4E481289B0 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id v104so9786558wrb.0 for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 09:42:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wY+ZMFnmTxM/A/OEtO92pavFFWF52Q3+3X/oY5zRuCY=; b=W4gtRu0f91fVdRnWs62N2flCSLzHLlyWPQqGUuUflUNdsmvrw6kdHgY9qjekw9MSV7 0Nu5wMQ6m4f90d7FWLkozuhP0VaufWCwTxO5cfQvHwzO1QrC0oHGALOM4a0t+ZwJW9y5 1UP18yLzusrEnJuCO+zahRLzRH3zwb4R7jN1ewnzuswGu3R9AI+ujuhWx9T8GNoY6B8q 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with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:42:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018BC2AF@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:42:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" , Uma Chunduri , Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e982a18f16c0550fcd738" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:42:45 -0000 --f403045e982a18f16c0550fcd738 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bingyang On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: > Yes, I also think the protocols should use the framework as their will. > Absolutely. > Another question is whether future ID protocols must be compatible with > the framework, but I think we can defer answering the question to the > framework RFC. > > > IMHO it is premature at this point to discuss this. Padma > Bingyang > > > > *From:* Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:32 PM > *To:* Liubingyang (Bryan) > *Cc:* Uma Chunduri ; ideas@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hi Bingyang > > > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) < > liubingyang@huawei.com> wrote: > > Hi Padma, > > > > Thanks for the well edited draft. I have a problem with the following > sentence: > > >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address > those requirements and that can be used with *any* identity-based protoco= l > . > > > > Does it mean that the IDEAS framework can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-base= d > protocols, as well as ALL FUTURE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a > new ID protocol in IETF in the future, the protocol should follow the > framework? Maybe IDEAS should have a more conservative goal than that. > > > > > > How about change "with any" to "by"? > > I think this should clarify that protocols could use this framework shoul= d > they wish to do so. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM > *To:* Uma Chunduri > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hi Uma > > > > Thanks for your review! > > > > Agree with your comments - will update > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Uma Chunduri > wrote: > > Thanks for more refined version, which does reflect lot of discussion in > the mailing-list on the charter. > > Have few comments in-line below [Uma]: > > > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM > *To:* ideas@ietf.org > *Cc:* Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a > Charter Proposal > > > > Hello IDEAS > > > > Thank you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal. > > This version aims to capture your suggestions and comments. > > Please note that the document went through editorial changes for > consistency, clarity and balance. > > > > I have also posted a version of it on GITHUB > > https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal/blob/master/ > IDEAS%20Charter%20Proposal > > > > Your comments and feedback welcome. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Identity-enabled solutions and applications are increasingly being > considered to support mobility solutions and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), > Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G services, as well as context aware > applications all can take advantage of discovery, stricter privacy and > security functions. > > > > Identifier-locator separation protocols are examples of technology that > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure is needed to address new requirements that go > well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of > identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > > Examples of such requirements are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well= . > Indeed, the identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restrictio= n > and flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > > [Uma]: The above depicts the gap in current identifier-location protocols > rather than requirement. May be you might want to add something similar > to=E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public ident= ifiers and also > for anonymizing the communication without being pinned by > man-in-the-middle=E2=80=9D. > > - Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users > may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and network elements > may wish to have a certain degree of control over this information to > define who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communications > should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity > and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage > unsolicited traffic or conceal their sensitive information to > eavesdroppers. > > - Interoperability across id-locator infrastructures: > > [Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-locator (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can = be used for both > Identity and Identifier at this point) > > In IoT, often technology specific solutions drive different naming and > addressing scheme leading to deploying disjoint systems. However, several > IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are > able to interoperate and exchange information when deployed over differen= t > administrative domains. > > - Low Latency: The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency > for mission critical applications as well as quality user experience > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address > those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol. > > [Uma]: identity-based protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-based protocol?? > > The framework includes the identifier-locator infrastructure and a common > control plane for identifier related services and identifier=E2=80=93loca= tion > separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate th= e > dynamic discovery of the various naming/addressing schemes and the > communication between these heterogeneous environments > > Such communication may also imply some negotiation capabilities, e.g., > when several Mapping Systems are managed by different entities. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > > > Features and properties: > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities associated > identifiers. > > - Definition of policies related to identities (e.g. access control to > discovery) > > - Anonymization support (e.g. identifier anonymity to eavesdroppers) > > - Authenticated identity (access to framework, update of information for > identifiers) > > - Definition and enforcement of policies (e.g. ability to look up an > identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic, =E2=80=A6) > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming..) > > - Metadata support (e.g. entity or endpoint attributes and properties). > > - Endpoint grouping support (e.g. negotiation to join, leave and > communicate) > > - Robustness of the system against DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access= , > rate limiting) > > > > The scope of system should be flexible and allow for different scopes suc= h > as local(private) or global(public). The scope of the mappings and their > relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking o= f > information. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private t= o > global systems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and > minimizing latency. > > > > The working group will balance the requirements for performance of the > framework to provide secured, trustworthy, and robust communication > services with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations. > > The method for updating, caching and dissemination or leaking of > information will be covered to ensure that state consistency and efficien= cy. > > [Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe method for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new Protocol= or an existing > Protocol extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > > The working group will cover the management aspects of IDEAS architectura= l > components and the services that they provide. The working group will > identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface > interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work . Furthermor= e, > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Overall Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki > > to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > Aug 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --f403045e982a18f16c0550fcd738 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bingyang


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Liubingyang (Brya= n) <liubingyang@huawei.com> wrote:

Yes, I also think the protocols shou= ld use the framework as their will.


Absolutely.
=C2=A0

Another question is whether future I= D protocols must be compatible with the framework, but I think we can defer= answering the question to the framework RFC.

=C2=A0

=
IMHO it is premature at this point to discuss this.
=

Padma=C2=A0

Bingyang

=C2=A0

From: = Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:32 PM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubingyang@huawei.com>
Cc: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>; ideas@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hi Bingyang

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM,= Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubingyang@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Padma,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the well edited draft. I = have a problem with the following sentence:

>> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working grou= p is chartered to develop a framework that provides services that can be us= ed to address those requirements and that can be used with any= identity-based protocol.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Does it mean that the IDEAS framewor= k can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-based protocols, as well as ALL FUTURE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a new ID protocol in IETF in = the future, the protocol should follow the framework? Maybe IDEAS should ha= ve a more conservative goal than that.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

How about change "with any= " to "by"?

I think this should clarify tha= t protocols could use this framework should they wish to do so.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

Bingyang (Bryan)

=C2=A0

From: = Ideas [mailto:ideas-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>=


Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hi Uma

=C2=A0

Thanks for your review!<= u>

=C2=A0

Agree with your comments - will= update

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 A= M, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:

Thanks for more refin= ed version, which does reflect lot of discussion in the mailing-list on the charter.<= /a>

Have few comments in-l= ine below [Uma]:<= /u>

=C2=A0

--

Uma C.

=C2=A0

From: = Ideas [mailto:ideas-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM
To: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a C= harter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hello= IDEAS

=C2= =A0

Thank= you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal.

This = version aims to capture your suggestions and comments.

Pleas= e note that the document went through editorial changes for consistency, cl= arity and balance.

=C2= =A0

I hav= e also posted a version of it on GITHUB =C2=A0<= u>

=C2= =A0

Your = comments and feedback welcome.

=C2= =A0

Thank= s

Padma=

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

Propo= sed Charter=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Identity-enabled solutions and = applications are increasingly being considered to support mobility solution= s and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G servic= es, as well as context aware applications all can take advantage of discove= ry, stricter privacy and security functions.

=C2=A0

Identifier-locator separation p= rotocols are examples of technology that require infrastructure that allows= nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2=A0 However, additional infrastructu= re is needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditiona= l discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delive= ry.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Examples of such requirements a= re:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Privacy: =C2=A0Th= e use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up = a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, the identifier-lo= cation pairs can be looked up without restriction and flows can be pinned by anyb= ody to specific end systems.

[Uma]: The above depic= ts the gap in current identifier-location protocols rather than requirement. May be you might want to add =C2=A0something similar to=E2=80= =93 =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public identifiers and= also for anonymizing the communication without being pinned by man-in-the-= middle=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and net= work elements may wish to have a certain degree of control over this inform= ation to define who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communicati= ons should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. This in= direction should help discourage unsolicited traffic or conceal their sensi= tive information to eavesdroppers.

-=C2=A0 Interoperability across= id-locator infrastructures:

[Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-loca= tor (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can be used for both Identity and Identifier at this point)

In IoT, often technology specif= ic solutions drive different naming and addressing scheme leading to deploy= ing disjoint systems. However, several IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are able to interoperate a= nd exchange information when deployed over different administrative domains= .=C2=A0

=C2=A0-=C2=A0=C2=A0 Low Latency= : The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency for mission criti= cal applications as well as quality user experience

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (= IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a framework that provides serv= ices that can be used to address those requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol.

[Uma]: identity-based = protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-base= d protocol??

The framework includes the iden= tifier-locator infrastructure and a common control plane for identifier rel= ated services and identifier=E2=80=93location separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate the dynamic discovery of = the various naming/addressing schemes and the communication between these h= eterogeneous environments

Such communication may also imp= ly some negotiation capabilities, e.g., when several Mapping Systems are ma= naged by different entities.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is c= hartered to work on these areas for the framework:

=C2=A0

Features and properties:=

- Registration and lifecycle ma= nagement of identities associated identifiers.

- Definition of policies relate= d to identities (e.g. access control to discovery)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Anonymization support (e.g. i= dentifier anonymity to eavesdroppers)

- Authenticated identity (acces= s to framework, update of information for identifiers)

- Definition and enforcement of= policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwa= rding traffic, =E2=80=A6)

- Identifier/locator mapping an= d resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming..)<= /p>

- Metadata support (e.g. entity= or endpoint attributes and properties).

- Endpoint grouping support (e.= g. negotiation to join, leave and communicate)

- Robustness of the system agai= nst DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access, rate limiting)

=C2=A0

The scope of system should be f= lexible and allow for different scopes such as local(private) or global(pub= lic). The scope of the mappings and their relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking of informati= on. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private to global sy= stems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and minimizing lat= ency.

=C2=A0

The working group will balance = the requirements for performance of the framework to provide secured, trust= worthy, and robust communication services with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations.

The method for updating, cachin= g and dissemination or leaking of information will be covered to ensure tha= t state consistency and efficiency.

[Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe me= thod for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new = Protocol or an existing Protocol=C2=A0extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D

The working group will cover th= e management aspects of IDEAS architectural components and the services tha= t they provide. The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface interactions betw= een the framework and identifier-enabled protocols

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate w= ith other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and= other relevant work . Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:=

Overall Identity Services Frame= work

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational doc= uments may include:

=C2=A0

These documents may not necessa= rily be published, but may be

maintained in a draft form or o= n a collaborative Working Group wiki

to support the efforts of the W= orking Group and help new comers:

-Problem statement

-Use cases=

-Requirements

- Applications of the architect= ure for use cases

=C2=A0

Milestones

Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the= Identity Services framework

May 2018 WGLC for the Identity = Services framework

Aug 2018 Send Identity Services= framework draft to the IESG

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--f403045e982a18f16c0550fcd738-- From nobody Fri Jun 2 09:58:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975501289B0 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7sEMxtXi8xx for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x235.google.com (mail-wr0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F11B1286B2 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x235.google.com with SMTP id g76so9969512wrd.1 for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+dXB0p4qO566jJQBeNiwOJhuXQL4YnkvwIrXCBH5SAo=; b=NyGXHdZYly/uhmjWrcrgKdfuMH/PcHmCOFIDTQjJmoQxGgx8G5fFdpLE11SaXURXF+ Ko1MTIxiIWWNFelY9nlSMxb+iI3bcZvX1x4b2BPcpXMGJ+LY2jjaEqknF7c71uyVeuUp lVCI2kDoUTJ5v9GiBYkG7cq0TLtJWuRHQkF/Vasl9WuZRnobEkAtEV017ZJA+WiucCZD sJnaqgHb2+k19rP+SHbxco/U7hWldZLKjsCjDSBDGGf0R8G6wxYX45EDEwg+XYG1zuWu NETJcaW3fey6mtFCR0p1M1H0FoMUwgQoe7VQsSbkX++fwnpW5G7GAkKQ5gqvD1wElJGP ijLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+dXB0p4qO566jJQBeNiwOJhuXQL4YnkvwIrXCBH5SAo=; b=ASMM3DperfL6u61JXL0g03ZgfgwRWSbfyq8jnSRy7hpD+ZKbgmq+L4eRktmYkzg2Dl UwOcrozENqd6sOk9YXUp07hDbSlj/7C9mOlU0swmor6o0wGrtVya6jLhaUpi2OTpb3l5 m7Gb03qzkq9XtoDfLvDQ7RXZRKeQkZSyKSwdlkvuBuz67Dx/2kxzxrWwAmTrXvEtNl/G nqJpkGgeNGO/CPiOS6FtfAa20VgpDxtvslMwFDAdPR72Lg+faBnFH0n3wrW2qKHQ1lgT m4VIUPNhMz8ffIiNONNZ6Drjm81iB5VBNrE4tdtNBaLVnyX3ggTM46c9jK5PIeJUoKN8 TmeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcCxtWJKwULdHlmG72SCoRiD+BEgSuoiCnK6QZAxmRaz5Gl9tpjQ yKsXen+mmgOCZZ5dzDSh3dJZbyqcZkJb X-Received: by 10.223.166.196 with SMTP id t62mr5425288wrc.52.1496422700731; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 09:58:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.132.135 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.132.135 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018BC2AF@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 09:58:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org, Uma Chunduri Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1147705082e60e0550fd0ff1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:58:25 -0000 --001a1147705082e60e0550fd0ff1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: > Yes, I also think the protocols should use the framework as their will. > It sounds like a nice to have but I don't think it can be a requirement. That would be the equivalent of saying that future versions of IP should be compatible with RIP. > Another question is whether future ID protocols must be compatible with the > framework, but I think we can defer answering the question to the framework > RFC. I think we should make sure its compatible with all know ID and virtualization protocols if possible. Probably enough there to get some confidence IDEAS is future proof. Tom > > > > Bingyang > > > > From: Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:32 PM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: Uma Chunduri ; ideas@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charte= r > Proposal > > > > Hi Bingyang > > > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) < liubingyang@huawei.com> > wrote: > > Hi Padma, > > > > Thanks for the well edited draft. I have a problem with the following > sentence: > >>> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to >>> develop a framework that provides services that can be used to address those >>> requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol. > > > > Does it mean that the IDEAS framework can be used by ALL EXISTING ID-base= d > protocols, as well as ALL FUTURE ID-base protocols? If anybody designs a new > ID protocol in IETF in the future, the protocol should follow the framework? > Maybe IDEAS should have a more conservative goal than that. > > > > > > How about change "with any" to "by"? > > I think this should clarify that protocols could use this framework shoul= d > they wish to do so. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma > Pillay-Esnault > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM > To: Uma Chunduri > Cc: ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charte= r > Proposal > > > > Hi Uma > > > > Thanks for your review! > > > > Agree with your comments - will update > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Uma Chunduri > wrote: > > Thanks for more refined version, which does reflect lot of discussion in the > mailing-list on the charter. > > Have few comments in-line below [Uma]: > > > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma > Pillay-Esnault > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM > To: ideas@ietf.org > Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charte= r > Proposal > > > > Hello IDEAS > > > > Thank you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal. > > This version aims to capture your suggestions and comments. > > Please note that the document went through editorial changes for > consistency, clarity and balance. > > > > I have also posted a version of it on GITHUB > > https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal/blob/master/IDEAS%20Charter%= 20Proposal > > > > Your comments and feedback welcome. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Identity-enabled solutions and applications are increasingly being > considered to support mobility solutions and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT), > Machine-to-Machine (M2M) and 5G services, as well as context aware > applications all can take advantage of discovery, stricter privacy and > security functions. > > > > Identifier-locator separation protocols are examples of technology that > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological > location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, additional > infrastructure is needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the > traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for > packet delivery. > > > > Examples of such requirements are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, the > identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction and flows can > be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > > [Uma]: The above depicts the gap in current identifier-location protocols > rather than requirement. May be you might want to add something similar to=E2=80=93 > =E2=80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public identifiers and a= lso for > anonymizing the communication without being pinned by man-in-the-middle= =E2=80=9D. > > - Security: An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users > may not want to be associated with. Therefore, users and network elements > may wish to have a certain degree of control over this information to define > who can read, write and delete it. The endpoint communications should be > able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and > associated policies. This indirection should help discourage unsolicited > traffic or conceal their sensitive information to eavesdroppers. > > - Interoperability across id-locator infrastructures: > > [Uma]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-locator (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can = be used for both > Identity and Identifier at this point) > > In IoT, often technology specific solutions drive different naming and > addressing scheme leading to deploying disjoint systems. However, several > IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastructures are > able to interoperate and exchange information when deployed over differen= t > administrative domains. > > - Low Latency: The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency > for mission critical applications as well as quality user experience > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop > a framework that provides services that can be used to address those > requirements and that can be used with any identity-based protocol. > > [Uma]: identity-based protocol =C3=A8 Identifier-based protocol?? > > The framework includes the identifier-locator infrastructure and a common > control plane for identifier related services and identifier=E2=80=93loca= tion > separation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate th= e > dynamic discovery of the various naming/addressing schemes and the > communication between these heterogeneous environments > > Such communication may also imply some negotiation capabilities, e.g., when > several Mapping Systems are managed by different entities. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > > > Features and properties: > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities associated > identifiers. > > - Definition of policies related to identities (e.g. access control to > discovery) > > - Anonymization support (e.g. identifier anonymity to eavesdroppers) > > - Authenticated identity (access to framework, update of information for > identifiers) > > - Definition and enforcement of policies (e.g. ability to look up an > identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic, =E2=80=A6) > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming..) > > - Metadata support (e.g. entity or endpoint attributes and properties). > > - Endpoint grouping support (e.g. negotiation to join, leave and > communicate) > > - Robustness of the system against DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for access= , > rate limiting) > > > > The scope of system should be flexible and allow for different scopes suc= h > as local(private) or global(public). The scope of the mappings and their > relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking o= f > information. The negotiation of leaking of information from the private t= o > global systems will be covered with the aim of minimal disruption and > minimizing latency. > > > > The working group will balance the requirements for performance of the > framework to provide secured, trustworthy, and robust communication services > with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations. > > The method for updating, caching and dissemination or leaking of information > will be covered to ensure that state consistency and efficiency. > > [Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe method for ..=E2=80=9D =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new Protocol= or an existing Protocol > extensions for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > > The working group will cover the management aspects of IDEAS architectura= l > components and the services that they provide. The working group will > identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interface > interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work . Furthermore, > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Overall Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki > > to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > Aug 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --001a1147705082e60e0550fd0ff1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Liubingyang (Brya= n) <liubingyang@huawei.com= > wrote:
> Yes, I also think the protocols should use the framewor= k as their will.
>
It sounds like a nice to have but I don't t= hink it can be a requirement. That would be the equivalent of saying that f= uture versions of IP should be compatible with RIP.

> Another que= stion is whether future ID protocols must be compatible with the
> fr= amework, but I think we can defer answering the question to the framework> RFC.

I think we should = make sure its compatible with all know ID and virtualization protocols if p= ossible. Probably enough there to get some confidence IDEAS is future proof= .

Tom

>
>
>
> Bingyang
>
>
><= br>> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:= 32 PM
> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubingyang@huawei.com>
> Cc: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>; ideas@ietf.org
>
>
> Sub= ject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter
= > Proposal
>
>
>
> Hi Bingyang
>
>=
>
> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Liubingyang (Bryan) <= liubingyang@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Padma,
>
>
>
> Th= anks for the well edited draft. I have a problem with the following
>= sentence:
>
>>> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) wo= rking group is chartered to
>>> develop a framework that provid= es services that can be used to address those
>>> requirements = and that can be used with any identity-based protocol.
>
> >
> Does it mean that the IDEAS framework can be used by ALL EXIS= TING ID-based
> protocols, as well as ALL FUTURE ID-base protocols? I= f anybody designs a new
> ID protocol in IETF in the future, the prot= ocol should follow the framework?
> Maybe IDEAS should have a more co= nservative goal than that.
>
>
>
>
>
&= gt; How about change "with any" to "by"?
>
>= ; I think this should clarify that protocols could use this framework shoul= d
> they wish to do so.
>
>
>
> Thanks
&= gt;
> Padma
>
>
>
> Bingyang (Bryan)
>= ;
>
>
> From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma
> Pilla= y-Esnault
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 3:46 AM
> To: Uma Chu= nduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.co= m>
> Cc: ideas@ietf.org;= Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.iet= f@gmail.com>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Prep for B= OF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter
> Proposal
>
>= ;
>
> Hi Uma
>
>
>
> Thanks for you= r review!
>
>
>
> Agree with your comments - will= update
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Padma
&= gt;
>
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Uma Chundur= i <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for more refined version, which= does reflect lot of discussion in the
> mailing-list on the charter.=
>
> Have few comments in-line below [Uma]:
>
> >
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> = From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma
> Pillay-Esnault
> Sent: Wedn= esday, May 31, 2017 10:51 AM
> To: = ideas@ietf.org
> Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ide= as] Prep for BOF in July - Your input Needed on a Charter
> Proposal<= br>>
>
>
> Hello IDEAS
>
>
>
= > Thank you for the feedback and comments on the first Charter Proposal.=
>
> This version aims to capture your suggestions and comments= .
>
> Please note that the document went through editorial chan= ges for
> consistency, clarity and balance.
>
>
>=
> I have also posted a version of it on GITHUB
>
> https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal/blob/mas= ter/IDEAS%20Charter%20Proposal
>
>
>
> Your c= omments and feedback welcome.
>
>
>
> Thanks
&= gt;
> Padma
>
>
>
>
>
>
= >
> Proposed Charter
>
>
>
> Identity-en= abled solutions and applications are increasingly being
> considered = to support mobility solutions and multi-homing across
> heterogeneous= access networks. Likewise, Internet of Things (IOT),
> Machine-to-Ma= chine (M2M) and 5G services, as well as context aware
> applications = all can take advantage of discovery, stricter privacy and
> security = functions.
>
>
>
> Identifier-locator separation = protocols are examples of technology that
> require infrastructure th= at allows nodes to discover the network topological
> location(s) of = its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, additional
> infrastructur= e is needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the
> tra= ditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for
>= ; packet delivery.
>
>
>
> Examples of such requi= rements are:
>
> - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public= identifiers may be desirable
> for looking up a peer, however it cau= ses privacy issues as well. Indeed, the
> identifier-location pairs c= an be looked up without restriction and flows can
> be pinned by anyb= ody to specific end systems.
>
> [Uma]: The above depicts the g= ap in current identifier-location protocols
> rather than requirement= . May be you might want to add something similar to=E2=80=93
> =E2= =80=9CPrivacy aspect is needed for looking up public identifiers and also f= or
> anonymizing the communication without being pinned by man-in-the= -middle=E2=80=9D.
>
> - Security: An identifier may reveal in= formation to which the end-users
> may not want to be associated with= . Therefore, users and network elements
> may wish to have a certain = degree of control over this information to define
> who can read, wri= te and delete it. The endpoint communications should be
> able to cha= nge their identifier while retaining their identity and
> associated = policies. This indirection should help discourage unsolicited
> traff= ic or conceal their sensitive information to eavesdroppers.
>
>= - Interoperability across id-locator infrastructures:
>
> [Um= a]: id-locator =C3=A8 identifier-locator (as =E2=80=99id=E2=80=99 can be us= ed for both
> Identity and Identifier at this point)
>
> = In IoT, often technology specific solutions drive different naming and
&= gt; addressing scheme leading to deploying disjoint systems. However, sever= al
> IoT and 5G scenarios require that identifier-locator infrastruct= ures are
> able to interoperate and exchange information when deploye= d over different
> administrative domains.
>
> - Low L= atency: The infrastructures must strive to minimize the latency
> for= mission critical applications as well as quality user experience
>>
>
> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working grou= p is chartered to develop
> a framework that provides services that c= an be used to address those
> requirements and that can be used with = any identity-based protocol.
>
> [Uma]: identity-based protocol= =C3=A8 Identifier-based protocol??
>
> The framework includes = the identifier-locator infrastructure and a common
> control plane fo= r identifier related services and identifier=E2=80=93location
> separ= ation protocols. A common control plane is required to facilitate the
&g= t; dynamic discovery of the various naming/addressing schemes and the
&g= t; communication between these heterogeneous environments
>
> S= uch communication may also imply some negotiation capabilities, e.g., when<= br>> several Mapping Systems are managed by different entities.
><= br>>
>
> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work o= n these areas for the
> framework:
>
>
>
> = Features and properties:
>
> - Registration and lifecycle manag= ement of identities associated
> identifiers.
>
> - Defin= ition of policies related to identities (e.g. access control to
> dis= covery)
>
> - Anonymization support (e.g. identifier anon= ymity to eavesdroppers)
>
> - Authenticated identity (access to= framework, update of information for
> identifiers)
>
> = - Definition and enforcement of policies (e.g. ability to look up an
>= ; identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic, =E2=80=A6)
>> - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub,=
> multihoming..)
>
> - Metadata support (e.g. entity or = endpoint attributes and properties).
>
> - Endpoint grouping su= pport (e.g. negotiation to join, leave and
> communicate)
>
= > - Robustness of the system against DDoS attacks (e.g. policies for acc= ess,
> rate limiting)
>
>
>
> The scope of = system should be flexible and allow for different scopes such
> as lo= cal(private) or global(public). The scope of the mappings and their
>= relevance within the scope will be taken into consideration for leaking of=
> information. The negotiation of leaking of information from the pr= ivate to
> global systems will be covered with the aim of minimal dis= ruption and
> minimizing latency.
>
>
>
> T= he working group will balance the requirements for performance of the
&g= t; framework to provide secured, trustworthy, and robust communication serv= ices
> with the minimized storage of data and privacy considerations.=
>
> The method for updating, caching and dissemination or leak= ing of information
> will be covered to ensure that state consistency= and efficiency.
>
> [Uma]: =E2=80=9CThe method for ..=E2=80=9D= =C3=A8 =E2=80=9CA new Protocol or an existing Protocol
> extensions = for =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
>
> The working group will cover the man= agement aspects of IDEAS architectural
> components and the services = that they provide. The working group will
> identify gaps and make re= commendations on changes needed for interface
> interactions between = the framework and identifier-enabled protocols
>
>
>> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure
= > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work . Further= more,
> it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appr= opriate.
>
>
>
> WG deliverables include:
>=
> Overall Identity Services Framework
>
>
>
&= gt; WG sustaining/informational documents may include:
>
> >
> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be<= br>>
> maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Gr= oup wiki
>
> to support the efforts of the Working Group and he= lp new comers:
>
> -Problem statement
>
> -Use case= s
>
> -Requirements
>
> - Applications of the archi= tecture for use cases
>
>
>
> Milestones
><= br>> Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework
>=
> May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework
>
> = Aug 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG
>
>=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing= list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> = https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ideas
>
--001a1147705082e60e0550fd0ff1-- From nobody Wed Jun 7 08:41:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietf.org Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35503129456; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 08:41:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: aretana@cisco.com, ideas@ietf.org, cmorgan@amsl.com, ideas-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.53.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149685008512.2571.10414949927868896280.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 08:41:25 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] ideas - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:41:25 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Cindy Morgan, on behalf of the ideas working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IDentity Enabled Networks Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Cindy Morgan Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: rtgarea opsarea nvo3 hip netconf i2rs nmrg sfc anima People who must be present: Erik Nordmark Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jun 7 14:46:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10ADB127867 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 14:46:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZDQ16O3xw9V for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC8DB127180 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 14:46:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13944; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1496871971; x=1498081571; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=L2ZfbSWL6nIi0Iy3B8pP/HwNNdNDvH/eiVc38UKfkA8=; b=BXboBtVX7NHp5yZA7bsy0L485gwStD06umbtQAenNggIOiCbzClRjJyb pY4JWwD0Z0qNz4cafi+XbSQ/VStLQudwA0jrp1eZuLQDfwhxC15aGfyQh 5d8yv2mrRcYH3UUMSyR3GqzmIQTb1hWtvFYzCtb97bOpcEOMnxNbmq5ru s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C8AgCrczhZ/5NdJa1UChoBAQEBAgEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEIAQEBAYJvaWKBFINsrEiFOYIQhiQcgltBFgECAQEBAQEBAWsdC4VCTAoSAUo?= =?us-ascii?q?CBDAnBA4ZiTNkryeCJiuLVAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAR2GYYFgK4Fph?= =?us-ascii?q?U6DOjCCMQWXB4cyAopbiFuCBoU+ijyUZgElATGBCnQVRhIBhnWJaoENAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.39,311,1493683200"; d="scan'208,217";a="437236661" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Jun 2017 21:46:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v57LkAnh029934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jun 2017 21:46:10 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:46:10 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:46:10 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "ideas@ietf.org" CC: Erik Nordmark Thread-Topic: IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 Thread-Index: AQHS39d501yV03+L3U+9TQOEunhjgg== Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 21:46:10 +0000 Message-ID: <888CBBFE-F20A-4DC8-AD0B-019C8E6400FD@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_888CBBFEF20A4DC8AD0B019C8E6400FDciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 21:46:14 -0000 --_000_888CBBFEF20A4DC8AD0B019C8E6400FDciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBJREVBUyBsaXN0Og0KDQpUaGUgSUFCL0lFU0cgaGVsZCBvdXIgQm9GIENvb3JkaW5hdGlv biBDYWxsIHRvZGF5LCBhbmQgaXQgd2FzIGRlY2lkZWQgdG8gZ28gZm9yd2FyZCB3aXRoIGFuIElE RUFTIEJvRiBhdCBJRVRGIDk5LiAgQ29uZ3JhdHVsYXRpb25zIQ0KVGhlcmUgYXJlIGhvd2V2ZXIg c29tZSBjb25jZXJucyB0aGF0IHdlIG5lZWQgeW91IChwcm9wb25lbnRzL3BhcnRpY2lwYW50cy9h dXRob3JzKSB0byBhZGRyZXNzIGF0IHRoZSBCb0YuICBCYXNlZCBvbiB0aGF0LCB3ZSBzaG91bGQg aWRlYWxseSBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIHRha2Ugc29tZSBhY3Rpb24sIHdoaWNoIGNvdWxkIGluY2x1ZGUg Y2hhcnRlcmluZyBhIFdHKHMpLCBkZWNpZGluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSB3b3JrIGJlbG9uZ3MgaW4gZXhp c3RpbmcgV0dzLCBhIGNvbWJpbmF0aW9uLCBvciBldmVuIHRoZSBkZWNpc2lvbiBvZiBub3QgZG9p bmcgYW55dGhpbmcuICBGcm9tIG15IHBvaW50IG9mIHZpZXcsIHRoZSBzdWNjZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBC 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Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173E31274D2 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:37:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hk5Nw9i69ua7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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b=boURqkLUeRvNiP8FrZtmbkP9LTrM3IlLqbHLhw6ZMd2EHjjH5bK9E+UYlp3DoQwqum afG8xh1eg9J2aVUgsbSpNSvUaEokjJK57s5QaWIrMGnNOuHUrY1GSNj0CH4M1QAzZzBx DbCN7vnxYM06IRGXRyWT+ylW6RP/EkBbnjN8w8KnUHGT4ETfkOA/4eisg0O6UXB1RTqU r8RIsa+Ygia/5phD4NwbzXJvlwbbMX90ReIO0J1vVgnZyOm/ZnQD5RHBAnRJomgTzGXu UVbnU5HLQ6SA5u4zYHI96khW4cltYmIleIDdS8c11EAASWuJEMz1ec8aZE8mGKyDiNFZ JOZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcCC3/6G6nHBzFde0V9KlMGj/woCtrbbRf2GT+nxWo0hwF8FfIm4 NX+afqiPapf/+72rIlASYTc87G05hw== X-Received: by 10.28.103.193 with SMTP id b184mr2112344wmc.25.1496900267400; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 22:37:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.2 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:37:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <888CBBFE-F20A-4DC8-AD0B-019C8E6400FD@cisco.com> References: <888CBBFE-F20A-4DC8-AD0B-019C8E6400FD@cisco.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:37:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" , Erik Nordmark , Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b0598b3e5c805516c4004" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 05:37:52 -0000 --001a114b0598b3e5c805516c4004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alvaro and Erik On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > Dear IDEAS list: > > > > The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, and it was decided to > go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99. Congratulations! > There are however some concerns that we need you > (proponents/participants/authors) to address at the BoF. Based on that, > we should ideally be able to take some action, which could include > chartering a WG(s), deciding that the work belongs in existing WGs, a > combination, or even the decision of not doing anything. From my point o= f > view, the success of the BoF should be measured by whether we have the > necessary information to make the correct decision. > Noted. Will work towards this goal with everyone. > In summary, the general concerns are (in no particular order): > > - Portions of the existing drafts, and even the proposed Charter, sound > like marketing materials. The IETF, and this process in particular, are > not the place to do marketing =E2=80=93 we need you then to clean up the = existing > documentation and simply get to the technical point you=E2=80=99re trying= to make. > > - It is not completely clear from the current documents exactly what the > IETF can/should work on. We need a gap analysis that clearly and > explicitly spells out what is needed and a discussion of why current > protocols may not be appropriate (if a new protocol is required, for > example). > > - A question was brought up about current deployment of existing ID/Loc > protocols (lisp, ila, etc.) and whether a common framework is needed (as > proposed) or if the community would be better served by a new protocol=E2= =80=A6or > maybe both. IOW, we would like to see this discussion as part of the > problem description and justification for the work. > > - What about overlap with other SDOs? Why is the IETF the right place? > > > > We would of course not only want to see these points covered during the > BoF, but also documented in the appropriate drafts. Please keep the ID > submission cut-off date in mind (July/3). > > > Understood. Will work with everyone to address these concerns. > Erik Nordmark (cc=E2=80=99d) has stepped up to act as IAB Shepherd. He w= ill work > with you (the proponents/list) with an architectural point of view in > mind. I will continue to be the Responsible AD through the process. > Looking forward to working with Erik. > One of the process items we need to work on is the assignment of BoF > Chairs. Ideally, the BoF Chairs are not one of the proponents or authors= . > At this point we need someone to drive through the process more than > anything else =E2=80=93 reminder: being a BoF Chair doesn=E2=80=99t neces= sarily translate > into WG Chair (if one was to be chartered). If anyone has a suggestion, > please send me a private note. > > Once we identify BoF Chairs, I will work with them in defining the > Agenda. In general, we want to be able to answer the following questions > (we=E2=80=99ll refine them as we go): > > - Are the Problem Statement and Use Cases clear? Is the scope of the > problem well defined and understood? > > - Does the Gap Analysis reflect the requirements gleaned from the Problem > Statement/Use Cases? Are these the right deliverables? > > - Is the Charter text clear and understandable? Does it reflect the Gap > Analysis? [*] > > - Should the IETF do this work? > > - Who is willing to contribute (write, review, comment, etc.)? > > > > [*] Note: depending on what the Gap Analysis shows, we might not have a > Charter discussion =E2=80=93 maybe just a discussion about potential work= items > (which may belong to existing WGs, for example). Also, even if a Charter > is not discussed at the BoF, formation of a new WG (as needed) is not > precluded. > Thanks in advance Alvaro, Erik for your guidance. Will work with the list and proponents to address the above and prepare for the BOF. Regards Padma > > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a114b0598b3e5c805516c4004 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Alvaro and Erik

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana)= <aretana@cisco.com> wrote:

Dear IDEAS list:

=C2=A0

The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, a= nd it was decided to go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99.=C2=A0 Congrat= ulations! =C2=A0 =C2=A0

There are however some concerns that we need you (pr= oponents/participants/authors) to address at the BoF.=C2=A0 Based on t= hat, we should ideally be able to take some action, which could include cha= rtering a WG(s), deciding that the work belongs in existing WGs, a combination, or even the decision of not doing anything= .=C2=A0 From my point of view, the success of the BoF should be measured by= whether we have the necessary information to make the correct decision.


<PPE> Noted. Will work towards this goal with everyone.<= /span>
=C2=A0

In summary, the general concerns are (in no particul= ar order):

- Portions of the existing drafts, and even the prop= osed Charter, sound like marketing materials.=C2=A0 The IETF, and this proc= ess in particular, are not the place to do marketing =E2=80=93 we need you = then to clean up the existing documentation and simply get to the technical point you=E2=80=99re trying to make.=

- It is not completely clear from the current docume= nts exactly what the IETF can/should work on.=C2=A0 We need a gap analysis = that clearly and explicitly spells out what is needed and a discussion of w= hy current protocols may not be appropriate (if a new protocol is required, for example).

- A question was brought up about current deployment= of existing ID/Loc protocols (lisp, ila, etc.) and whether a common framew= ork is needed (as proposed) or if the community would be better served by a= new protocol=E2=80=A6or maybe both.=C2=A0 IOW, we would like to see this discussion as part of the problem description an= d justification for the work.

- What about overlap with other SDOs? Why is = the IETF the right place?

=C2=A0

We would of course not only want to see these points= covered during the BoF, but also documented in the appropriate drafts.=C2= =A0 Please keep the ID submission cut-off date in mind (July/3).<= /u>

=C2=A0

<PPE> Understood. Will work= with everyone to address these concerns.
=C2=A0

Erik Nordmark (cc=E2=80=99d) has stepped up to act a= s IAB Shepherd.=C2=A0 He will work with you (the proponents/list) with an a= rchitectural point of view in mind.=C2=A0 I will continue to be the Respons= ible AD through the process.=C2=A0

=
<PPE> Looking forward to working with Erik.
= =C2=A0

One of the process items we need to work on i= s the assignment of BoF Chairs.=C2=A0 Ideally, the BoF Chairs are not one o= f the proponents or authors.=C2=A0 At this point we need someone to drive t= hrough the process more than anything else =E2=80=93 reminder: being a BoF Chair doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily translate into WG Chair (if = one was to be chartered).=C2=A0 If anyone has a suggestion, please send me = a private note.

Once we identify BoF Chairs, I will work with them i= n defining the Agenda.=C2=A0 In general, we want to be able to answer the f= ollowing questions (we=E2=80=99ll refine them as we go):

- Are the Problem Statement and Use Cases clear?=C2= =A0 Is the scope of the problem well defined and understood?<= /p>

- Does the Gap Analysis reflect the requirements gle= aned from the Problem Statement/Use Cases?=C2=A0 Are these the right delive= rables?

- Is the Charter text clear and understandable?=C2= =A0 Does it reflect the Gap Analysis?=C2=A0 [*]

- Should the IETF do this work?

- Who is willing to contribute (write, review, comme= nt, etc.)?

=C2=A0

[*] Note: depending on what the Gap Analysis = shows, we might not have a Charter discussion =E2=80=93 maybe just a discus= sion about potential work items (which may belong to existing WGs, for exam= ple).=C2=A0 Also, even if a Charter is not discussed at the BoF, formation of a new WG (as needed) is not precluded.


<PPE>=C2=A0
Thanks=C2=A0in advance Alvaro, Erik for = your guidance.=C2=A0
Will work with the list and proponent= s to address the above and prepare for the BOF.

Regards
Padma=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks!

Alvaro.


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a114b0598b3e5c805516c4004-- From nobody Fri Jun 9 17:00:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056D0126557 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:00:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ALHRWYZKOF3x for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22d.google.com (mail-wr0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1AB21200FC for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id q97so47230278wrb.2 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:00:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZOuV1QS0CW+mfU42GCM/WXNuPtmC8hTKoFOyq0VmAWM=; b=lwOoX5uLcuwwcLCwL4HJNVHo94CvW/UUfmAjmtl9N0Lgzmg6Asabj7sKyC6kiNk6oA SUnOJwRbFBLuSNXpK4R47JJYphyJdlNRFs4z5simGPxMdQRjNT+PcnE9TneB+Sfl3mVy X3cI2o3Q3/Xzf2Czg+NZMYr9/wB3Ig+uoFry4VjEtpy8ZoFpoFLSnoDrHX+137fvkB6T cukBoiBUbZUHbJc/3hJA8EBAZag3aUlszDBqcPuNSJ+APuBH5+rbTDiOshxbMHFmjgmw ibnruGtQfwkcBM1LtMDOKMMCRChjBPwwcE+JBSQv8Um9f9vn3wRVxBMGqNw2lbPhJyGm R3OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZOuV1QS0CW+mfU42GCM/WXNuPtmC8hTKoFOyq0VmAWM=; b=fA6qusGGWsgygoEpAwgEwhq5vVk+V46LclqeYaWuf7TOZO0FviSwFTjEPBi6jXJRwN oB6g8bASQYStaJCByZaU4K7c+zD9FIFLFBT5OXSeghP8aS6HxdjnLBLdnK+L0VvO7uxp C+7t9iVO6VgPTMGrttfYdb//WQFzsTrDCDvttwmUNn1LvRxixJvdoGLGsOQLbLOSsVtL m7B8DOzUjUAk92vkT5VhUuxkOLzkfU77xOOPQ8ePRirlQICqest6sTCiNwwaiobQX3uo xoAAo0adg+iMS4Yc8HJIhNIfY7rAYuBhHoIfoMfr9Pnoqiid3yjcylJzwprATewIcOl7 Alow== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOympGYY7aPM03oLPqi5k408pfjb1fUpPZe1RBTttIiRigza/zcv d9VwwzCxjMW3nNkPaBxk5S0QTFtCjnoP X-Received: by 10.28.175.84 with SMTP id y81mr1478730wme.25.1497052849068; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:00:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.2 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114450da47625a05518fc7df" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 00:00:53 -0000 --001a114450da47625a05518fc7df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IDEAS Thank you all for your input and feedback! In order to prepare for our BOF, we have a lot of work ahead as highlighted by Alvaro's email. Therefore, we really need everyone to dedicate some time on their schedule. The *deadline for submission is July 3rd *for drafts. We have several documents that need to be Updated/Created specifically to address the concerns: - Charter - Problem Statement - Use Cases - Gap Analysis - Requirements 1. A complete review of all existing document to ensure we purge the documents and streamline them. We need volunteers for that. a. * Charter =E2=80=93 Padma, Suggest Michael M, Christian J + Please v= olunteer or ack on suggestion* b. *Problem Statement - Padma , Suggest Christian J, Axel, Guiseppe, Yingzhen, Kiran + Please volunteer or ack on suggestion* In particular we need to take this feedback in consideration. A question was brought up about current deployment of existing ID/Loc protocols (lisp, ila, etc.) and whether a common framework is needed (as proposed) or if the community would be better served by a new protocol=E2= =80=A6or maybe both. IOW, we would like to see this discussion as part of the problem description and justification for the work. What about overlap with other SDOs? Why is the IETF the right place? c. *Use Cases: Suggest Tom H., David L., Alex, Uma=E2=80=A6 + Please volunteer or ack on suggestion* Need to add use cases for Identity and reorder the use case to answer the general concerns. d. *New document =E2=80=93 Need volunteers on thisGap Analysis: Suggest Bingya= ng, Michael M., Albert C., Uma, Yingzhen + Please volunteer or ack on suggestion * The gap analysis that clearly and explicitly spells out what is needed and a discussion of why current protocols may not be appropriate (if a new protocol is required, for example). We have much of this material but this need to be concise and to the point for clarity. e. *Requirements =E2=80=93 Suggest Alex, Bingyang + Please Volunteer o= r ack on suggestion* Ensure we tie the Requirements document to the gap analysis and use case. 2. Logistics for planning meetings and offshoot meetings to close AIs if needed a. *USA and Overall if needed* =E2=80=93 *Pa**dma, Yingzhen* b. *Europe =E2=80=93** Please volunteer* c. *China =E2=80=93 Bingyang* 3. IETF Meeting Attendance a. Some folks have asked me for specific dates as they will join IETF later in the week. I have included this as a special request. b. *Please see the overlap with conflicting groups and please let me know so that we can add this asap to the request of the BOF meeting* *We need to be ready by June 30th to ensure we make the deadlines for the docs.* Looking forward to hearing from you and working towards a successful BOF. Thanks Padma --001a114450da47625a05518fc7df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear IDEAS


Thank you all for your input and feedback!


In order to prepare for our BOF, we h= ave a lot of work ahead as highlighted by Alvaro's email. Therefore, we= really need everyone to dedicate some time on their schedule.

The=C2= =A0deadline for submission is July 3rd=C2=A0for drafts.

=C2=A0

We have several documents that ne= ed to be Updated/Created specifically to address the concerns:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Charter=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0Proble= m Statement=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Use Cases

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-size:12.800000190734863px">-=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Gap Analysis

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Requirements=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A01.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0= A complet= e review of all existing document to ensure we purge the documents and stre= amline them. We need volunteers for that.


a. =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Charter =E2=80=93 Padma, Suggest Michael M, Christian J + Plea= se volunteer or ack on suggestion


b. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pr= oblem Statement =C2=A0- Padma , =C2=A0Suggest Christian J, Axel, Guiseppe, = Yingzhen, Kiran + Please volunteer or ack on suggestion

In particular we need to ta= ke this feedback in consideration.

A question was brought up about current deployme= nt of existing ID/Loc protocols (lisp, ila, etc.) and whether a common fram= ework is needed (as proposed) or if the community would be better served by= a new protocol=E2=80=A6or maybe both.=C2=A0 IOW, we would like to see this= discussion as part of the problem description and justification for the wo= rk.

What about overlap with other SDOs? Why is the IETF the right pla= ce?=C2=A0


c. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Use Cases: Suggest Tom H.,= =C2=A0David L., Alex, Uma=E2=80=A6 + Please volunteer or ack on suggestion=

Need to add use case= s for Identity and reorder the use case to answer the general concerns.


d. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0New docum= ent =E2=80=93 Need volunteers on this
Gap Analysis: Suggest Bingyang, Mi= chael M., Albert C., Uma, Yingzhen + Please volunteer or ack on suggestion<= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;color:rgb(192,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-se= rif">=C2=A0

The gap analysis= that clearly and explicitly spells out what is needed and a discussion of = why current protocols may not be appropriate (if a new protocol is required= , for example). We have much of this material but this need to be concise a= nd to the point for clarity.


e. =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Requirements =E2=80=93 Suggest Alex, Bingyang + Please Volunte= er or ack on suggestion

Ensure we tie the Requirements document to the gap analysis= and use case.

=C2=A0

= 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Logistics for planning meetings and = offshoot meetings to close AIs if needed

a. =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<= /span>USA =C2=A0and Overall if needed=C2=A0=E2=80=93 Padma, Yingzhen

b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0Europe =E2= =80=93=C2=A0Please volunteer
c. =C2=A0 =C2=A0China = =E2=80=93 Bingyang

=C2=A0

3. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Meeting Attendancea. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some folks have asked me for specific dates as the= y will join IETF later in the week. I have included this as a special reque= st.
b. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please see the overlap with conflicti= ng groups and please let me know so that we can add this asap to the reques= t of the BOF meeting

=C2=A0

We need to be ready by= June 30th=C2=A0to ensure we make the deadlines for the docs.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Looking fo= rward to hearing from you and working towards a successful BOF.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

--001a114450da47625a05518fc7df-- From nobody Sat Jun 10 01:31:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDCD127201 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 01:31:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVBtLgx7jcUZ for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 01:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (mx04.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1D2B127077 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 01:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (hsi-kbw-5-56-217-255.hsi17.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [5.56.217.255]) by mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A39227A1A; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:31:51 +0200 (CEST) To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org References: From: Michael Menth Message-ID: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:31:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 08:31:57 -0000 Dear Padma, all, I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system and may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows to look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This is the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobility (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic engineering and other flexibility aspects. The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communication partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time to implement a right to be forgotten. The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but should be brought together in a recommended fashion. Michael -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Sat Jun 10 12:47:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9081270AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id acmxD2ThYHKe for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x229.google.com (mail-wr0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08DBC1267BB for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v111so61197080wrc.3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LhL4cNUf8IV5/a8XGJ0G/UbJ5B+PlIKc8Fn/rDFt/Qw=; b=t0qwG1fAbfjnwutAdjHUyNSryhgpB/TDcYyn7MG0ig70grlAZtNrXlRIu2EEdzUq7G LxUkTpBjhN90v4bl+U/EuHmym6Gj0o95UZeneO9k09xBLzl4DB3x3G/KuURIu9Ojz9qJ 1+mfmiNE9/bfAJDrfqcm+crfZH9mQk3wWt7tqoTgJm6bV4WThCLPf0xRMxXfhtRupWXg Ed95wEeIPQp897vxwuKkr5/dmNCKJIqrAofoROy0VutOkHTOsURDH5HmLh1CI/04f4xO GmdtAW1yVVKKwNQY9BhcexXU0O9z5cZ0heHlm9uvLAMI1n3V65jku5R9JktyZa48shyq z75w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LhL4cNUf8IV5/a8XGJ0G/UbJ5B+PlIKc8Fn/rDFt/Qw=; b=S1kp9dy49NPAIOJEs9bs6r5r6r2kZUBTjJU0wsRMDYI3W+SJUKCMneeofxGLlA5SII En6dorE8V03ywixEjdulV75qqyFd33XSPJJaI7tFNjX138NTMFsAGunuEluzF6QnO7qp vCx18OsRWguB5GS4gi08ZEQo03bNzJpu2O89wxqP/t6o51zCqarCx+4zjNMQuYm6DOHk oIyG4PKANJ1T/1iV2btmQ4WCWqiw63ZErOw1OiBPeGPYZS8/Gf0F1mRTZRAV3a2otmrb JlxxJWa/f7n14EDhG1SWnsNwJ+8+CpGG1yUPeShImhsUjFwbqfI9GqGD3+HzOanZF3uU 9X+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOyitBcE3mh+7545cIN4OuNxWHC9ZB/pGP1ETPu2rjdggsNYHPh/ 23yHDz6CpNqOiifHQwA2OPyzNEj2lw== X-Received: by 10.28.211.203 with SMTP id k194mr3582072wmg.0.1497124053519; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.2 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:47:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Menth Cc: ideas@ietf.org, Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1146d994651aa00551a05be7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 19:47:38 -0000 --001a1146d994651aa00551a05be7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Michael On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth wrote: > Dear Padma, all, > > I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple > IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a > base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! > Thanks for this write up I think this is a good base Agree, we should be integrate the identity aspect in the problem statement, but also the use case and gap analysis documents more clearly. IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), > identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication > using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. > An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To > protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs > (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these > Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's > Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system and > may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. > > On the call yesterday we had a discussion about the clear definition of identity in the PB and this looks concise and to the point. > Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They > identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. > To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed > that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows to > look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This is > the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobility > (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic > engineering and other flexibility aspects. > > The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for > communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communication > partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid > being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly > changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access > to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time to > implement a right to be forgotten. > > The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in > communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being > tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is > needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to > avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is > needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other > aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but should > be brought together in a recommended fashion. > > Do you want to give a stab on the PB doc to integrate this. I think part of this would work well also in the charter. Thoughts? Padma > Michael > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > --001a1146d994651aa00551a05be7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Michael


=
On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth <= span dir=3D"ltr"><menth@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
Dear Padma, all,

I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a
base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects!
<= div>=C2=A0
Thanks for this write up

I th= ink this is a good base
Agree, we should be integrate the identit= y aspect in the problem statement, but also the use case and gap analysis d= ocuments more clearly.


IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys),
identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication
using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added.
=C2=A0
An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To
protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs
(TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these
Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system and may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys.

On the call yesterday we had a discussion about the c= lear definition of identity in the PB
and this looks concise and = to the point.
=C2=A0
Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They
identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed
that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows to look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This is the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobility (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic
engineering and other flexibility aspects.

The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for
communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communication partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid
being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly
changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access
to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time to implement a right to be forgotten.

The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in
communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being
tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is
needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to
avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is
needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other
aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but should be brought together in a recommended fashion.


Do you want to give a stab on the PB doc to integrat= e this.

I think part of this would work well also = in the charter.

Thoughts?

Padma
=C2=A0
Michael

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+4= 9)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de=
http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

--001a1146d994651aa00551a05be7-- From nobody Sat Jun 10 16:31:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879551275AB for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id woPqQVymhXxB for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22d.google.com (mail-wr0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A8B91286CA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id v104so63186193wrb.0 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=O9sVsZYpB03VgVwIpdD3jLjkZqGr4CS2y1T5c6cP4Nw=; b=mnXC+PlAmTQnEj5XGNRu9yQ47ITCCiKClSk/BwlFiWr75mv7SEiR4HIPQPhzjlAOQW 8cCjV2Cxgr2bBnkOJZCppxIE23xOe9ruaK4y8p6xd2LK7GLiwZTL872PyocZVmeogJ1i s3l0yU5lWbHx9OxPgMxHV9TOQcOZoSUlNItrNLVJ1O3WWmRCKOqV/+HCdMVr47PXe0yE +JRcGHzvIanzeDYM5Isng3ZpCZTICIGj6rbdh3EUEZtPuaJOKPuSMlk/pOpVRU+VZCMe xmvGYtVVgEtzK/nyAbdyQ+CRwecuq61Tv/jhAcWYPo9abnq5IXk9qJbESBFy4AGG38LQ qDSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=O9sVsZYpB03VgVwIpdD3jLjkZqGr4CS2y1T5c6cP4Nw=; b=ZuEWsnHPBpJbsc601LRLtFylK+1NPOGTR0pIQdPplXzt4uai6JA8KHEqF1nBvkf5AO p+roIeLIOIeLWwFq4PeOUPtpQqsPZMOTmsmUbQtJoGLog+T8OBoW0YyKEnh7aaP8brPx 6XOGubVVoNjJ5bKLlQVx/AlguPptqSwZAnvLsC4T8RvhRKoTzSGURNrbiBj+8+DV5Pd0 RwcJucheGQ+c5go9U5fGDXlBdsMhS5a4Ivu0z1aLBXGBEU44F6RY8qyUcr2FaliNjNKi aU9LjSUselAYulosduNfrYBeWMdXGJhJ0KvV8XMAHLoGfNejT1xWb4B+62SS8CIYoMff 947Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOxnrWqcXF4vSntiLAPOuQlyICVRh9ObNnMapRQcOdde2Q273wJk EsQtbdYVxXuMnQKjOkHzJV0CcpZaHB03 X-Received: by 10.28.229.144 with SMTP id c138mr3423107wmh.60.1497137503492; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.2 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:31:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Menth Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 23:31:48 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth wrote: > Dear Padma, all, > > I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple > IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a > base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! > > IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), > identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication > using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. > > An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To > protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs > (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these > Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's > Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system and > may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. > Hi Michael, I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of complexity to me. In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used-- so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to query. Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in the scenario I described? Tom > Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They > identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. > To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed > that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows to > look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This is > the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobility > (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic > engineering and other flexibility aspects. > > The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for > communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communication > partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid > being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly > changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access > to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time to > implement a right to be forgotten. > > The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in > communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being > tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is > needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to > avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is > needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other > aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but should > be brought together in a recommended fashion. > > Michael > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Sun Jun 11 02:19:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107AC127286 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 02:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYJf90enyFcn for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 02:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.uni-tuebingen.de (mx03.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.213]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D55DC120725 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 02:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (hsi-kbw-5-56-217-255.hsi17.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [5.56.217.255]) by mx03.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC75782A0A; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:19:22 +0200 (CEST) To: Tom Herbert References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org From: Michael Menth Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:19:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:19:28 -0000 Hi Tom, we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split. We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts. So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split. What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above mentioned context. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes trackable like in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions solved that problem. But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking to. So what's desirable is a permanent ID for an identity which can be mapped to various temporary IDs that are used for communication. A mapping system associates identities and identifiers but can be queried only by authorized identifiers. That means, communication becomes transparent to authorized users while protecting privacy against others. However, we need to explore how these objectives can be achieved with current protocols and what pieces and extensions are missing. That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to use a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a temporary ID for each communication, for certain time spans, or devices. Permanent IDs are not acceptable for privacy concerns in many use cases, e.g., automotive. As the temporary ID may be looked up by a provider, it may be possible to apply per-identiy policies to traffic. If an identifier is corrupt or gets attacked, of if a device gets lost or is exchanged, the corresponding identifier may be substituted by another. This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS. It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in various use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split. Best wishes, Michael Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth wrote: >> Dear Padma, all, >> >> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple >> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a >> base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! >> >> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), >> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication >> using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. >> >> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To >> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs >> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these >> Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's >> Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system and >> may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. >> > Hi Michael, > > I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor > what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of > complexity to me. > > In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The > management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a > unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers > to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care > what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple > identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system > shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the > mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used-- > so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. > Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need > tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to > query. > > Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in > the scenario I described? > > Tom > >> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They >> identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. >> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed >> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows to >> look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This is >> the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobility >> (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic >> engineering and other flexibility aspects. >> >> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for >> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communication >> partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid >> being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly >> changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access >> to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time to >> implement a right to be forgotten. >> >> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in >> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being >> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is >> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to >> avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is >> needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other >> aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but should >> be brought together in a recommended fashion. >> > >> Michael >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >> University of Tuebingen >> Faculty of Science >> Department of Computer Science >> Chair of Communication Networks >> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Sun Jun 11 09:59:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1102C129544 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wR0XqyJNZmr5 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com (mail-wr0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3003129541 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id g76so74199749wrd.1 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=D7Lg1Kq5iW4JTQJhufmSMZDA6munCyFJNuSwZQ/ely8=; b=jNdxH7BRyTYZbqkX54oDbU0YTzGA3+//lgtZWMQGaP2Fal9WWsQxjMwhVCNQyKSJ4u bNoJV0lKy1+nhO4uiYpLANNK5ffaPbCB0U80x0mgglAiXWeq+JcY4LMYRUchSPdAcMwM zUFLXt4ENY2Um6gR5ijmeOLuqGNp5Isnd0RKslQgh3xAw8BaQdWYQ1MHSTImjpuY/p9k Heu0AgoGIvqy4PlgnEh8abSdFubmRtIJspuFRZqSFTAhyDAMo2hL89Tofitsogx78/Ji OcJ5noBjmZqucQpYlizPqN70EY/lirK2kAKCshagRMeyD8hIrNcJsfYKlXixcRndy5lN lOPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D7Lg1Kq5iW4JTQJhufmSMZDA6munCyFJNuSwZQ/ely8=; b=JDaEF3swbg5KjrrZnK4XgBX1HehBQRwNmpWzv36y7AHuDsldAUsPPxq1wPDw6PZEH0 I6IEZUNx0hggh6TGMXzK2FgYPjkNxILH3VwnrMg8NYI4/RQbja+lU3h9dyasVP6dP+dN ZYih+l+MGaX9FVG/5ac9flpwF6xsuip2EZQ6GMcopjON/c/fKZJx680EHeQWmvkRoey0 vO90WgkI+Qew8IXetrsfeJYuZaE86rRXmJi854wdekf7aYCtUQ9Gzf237s2lhqQZsL8A BoBtPBmZh+/wWaf/A3KSf3/4OihJmDKPNfOl9lY1OI2Pwv1ugQjpnhiC+A2dNhC+hXaW HjAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOxmLy5ePguQjK1bS/fDdB0ngM1pEETqbWk4SIXYZaucd/QmGnoC 97Dw8n57E8DEtqOUx5QZCVrfYf1kxz9L X-Received: by 10.28.54.154 with SMTP id y26mr5484903wmh.53.1497200375914; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.2 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 09:59:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Menth Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 16:59:40 -0000 On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 2:19 AM, Michael Menth wrote: > Hi Tom, > > we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split. > We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts. > So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split. > > What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above mentioned > context. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes > trackable like in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions solved > that problem. But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking to. So > what's desirable is a permanent ID for an identity which can be mapped > to various temporary IDs that are used for communication. A mapping > system associates identities and identifiers but can be queried only by > authorized identifiers. That means, communication becomes transparent to > authorized users while protecting privacy against others. However, we > need to explore how these objectives can be achieved with current > protocols and what pieces and extensions are missing. > Michael, I think what you're describing is more address obfuscation than ID/loc split, or in this case it's the identifier being obfuscated. This is being implemented in IPwave for instance to mitigate the tracking problem. The need for obfuscation is independent of the ID/loc. Address obfuscation only works to the extent that there aren't other means to track nodes. For instance, even if we were to use different addresses for each packet of a TCP connection, the connection is trivial to track but just correlating port numbers, sequence and ack numbers sent in the clear. The only way to ensure privacy is encrypt everything possible. In ILA deployment, the intent is that protocol is not visible to public networks. For instance, in a carrier network ILA would only be used in the core (like GTP is only in the core today). The carrier network already knows location anyway, so we don't address obfuscation there. For packets going to the UE (over radio for instance) we do need address obfuscation there like IPwave is doing, but again that can be independent of id/loc. Anyway, if this is really needed, I suggest that it is defined to be an obfuscation layer separate from id/loc. And it should be optional and usable outside of id/loc as well. Tom > That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to > use a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a temporary > ID for each communication, for certain time spans, or devices. Permanent > IDs are not acceptable for privacy concerns in many use cases, e.g., > automotive. As the temporary ID may be looked up by a provider, it may > be possible to apply per-identiy policies to traffic. If an identifier > is corrupt or gets attacked, of if a device gets lost or is exchanged, > the corresponding identifier may be substituted by another. > > This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS. > It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in > various use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split. > > Best wishes, > > Michael > > > Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert: >> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth wrote: >>> Dear Padma, all, >>> >>> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple >>> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a >>> base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! >>> >>> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), >>> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication >>> using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. >>> >>> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To >>> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs >>> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these >>> Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's >>> Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system and >>> may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. >>> >> Hi Michael, >> >> I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor >> what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of >> complexity to me. >> >> In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The >> management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a >> unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers >> to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care >> what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple >> identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system >> shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the >> mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used-- >> so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. >> Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need >> tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to >> query. >> >> Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in >> the scenario I described? >> >> Tom >> >>> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They >>> identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. >>> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed >>> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows to >>> look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This is >>> the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobility >>> (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic >>> engineering and other flexibility aspects. >>> >>> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for >>> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communication >>> partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid >>> being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly >>> changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access >>> to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time to >>> implement a right to be forgotten. >>> >>> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in >>> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being >>> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is >>> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to >>> avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is >>> needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other >>> aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but should >>> be brought together in a recommended fashion. >>> >> >>> Michael >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >>> University of Tuebingen >>> Faculty of Science >>> Department of Computer Science >>> Chair of Communication Networks >>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ideas mailing list >>> Ideas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Sun Jun 11 20:38:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FC6129B8C for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oMaPgpaUOfxx for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x229.google.com (mail-wr0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A64A129B89 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g76so81533072wrd.1 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lnHcf7AplL0FMWlTo9Atxsf0Vc/Rsi+NGGcDcLo8LW4=; b=DbANb6mt+Yo6eZsnhG43ZzWCrA2dxzhqHyI+wk+Obh2oaKkuWk5GqlwIXHdiBsJbos 7CqpO488RgYKJmTZO080T4nqpKHshpinUGlK9F3ofLbJccX+uhfH7ousQMtHZ6K3biB7 RcrqJxpKUPs/r9nVDmrxtd8hhF3hgKGgUm2jhfvSF5F7Ivg1jK/yotxCoTlaazwct/b2 E0VU7MG0VAhjU4Lb8Lk0L70d+avFUzCyowCowwx9lSB2F8QOplmWMObMRkJ9LbD4m0W6 /0vpVBmSSjGIGYC/Q4B9DS2jyY1y8wX/RZPyL0OirNCZog3cx3V7MMQTyF97y0797vAY Shew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lnHcf7AplL0FMWlTo9Atxsf0Vc/Rsi+NGGcDcLo8LW4=; b=b5rxNNtqhHH/i85R9fH/AbY9TfRgr2MoQFpUxZh24NUbbqgg1rEiSZ7n75p5Za9qdZ ccbze1OEW+zAELG9E/bTaQYXcpXoCqIKiDJKGmLRmrolI7+2cCOYGRldUu/O7mUbpPF/ BHCTB6PSzYgW86Ey7dg0CQrcbiGXsoJI3zYZ84CW6kNDeGnZw0PpDxVnDQ9vRGjnBaTj 3+0p/V4YTYb9rvq6dbbDi1Yl2rmIf/BaYsMpGc8cNTxNU3f6kMRD/mqN5fuIRhUXtqQx GoicJqBMfVrgJ9PtMSzoWidJiZmVLC9NvXpMtoXQsqtoXfagmaq4Su+N5qVC9AaXg/Ag UAbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDzc2FVrO+tZZagjgljNLuOc9DQpotY4pDv85AersrUfncPKMEd Acu4IaFLQzEYSRAlZf0qG+pWpTcvAw== X-Received: by 10.28.103.193 with SMTP id b184mr6389650wmc.25.1497238700596; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.2 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:38:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Michael Menth , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b0598e4a3330551bb0c10" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 03:38:26 -0000 --001a114b0598e4a3330551bb0c10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tom See Below for my comments On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 2:19 AM, Michael Menth > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split. > > We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts. > > So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split. > > > > What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above mentioned > > context. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes > > trackable like in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions solved > > that problem. But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking to. So > > what's desirable is a permanent ID for an identity which can be mapped > > to various temporary IDs that are used for communication. A mapping > > system associates identities and identifiers but can be queried only by > > authorized identifiers. That means, communication becomes transparent to > > authorized users while protecting privacy against others. However, we > > need to explore how these objectives can be achieved with current > > protocols and what pieces and extensions are missing. > > > > Michael, > > I think what you're describing is more address obfuscation than ID/loc > split, or in this case it's the identifier being obfuscated. This is > being implemented in IPwave for instance to mitigate the tracking > problem. The need for obfuscation is independent of the ID/loc. > > Hi Tom Obfuscation is just an aspect of this. This is a bit different from the vehicular case. Address obfuscation only works to the extent that there aren't other > means to track nodes. For instance, even if we were to use different > addresses for each packet of a TCP connection, the connection is > trivial to track but just correlating port numbers, sequence and ack > numbers sent in the clear. The only way to ensure privacy is encrypt > everything possible. > > Yes this is true but you will need to do DPI in you want to act not his packet. I am specifically thinking of the case when you have packets in flight and you need to change the locator. If you want to avoid anchoring mechanism to do this and all is encrypted then you will need to decrypt to be able to do any processing. Another example would be ID context awareness which is difficult to achieve today as is and even more so if we start using anon identifiers that change all the time ... > In ILA deployment, the intent is that protocol is not visible to > public networks. For instance, in a carrier network ILA would only be > used in the core (like GTP is only in the core today). The carrier > network already knows location anyway, so we don't address obfuscation > there. For packets going to the UE (over radio for instance) we do > need address obfuscation there like IPwave is doing, but again that > can be independent of id/loc. > > I think we are talking of two different things here. You are right address obfuscation can be achieved by many ways. However, if you want to have an anonymous ID and yet have someone to discover you and initiate communication with you then there has to be some relationship between on what you can be looked up and the actual id you use. On the other hand there are other possible functionalities tied the identity that we do not have today such as access control or even policies. > Anyway, if this is really needed, I suggest that it is defined to be > an obfuscation layer separate from id/loc. And it should be optional > and usable outside of id/loc as well. > > Absolutely. The Identity Services in the framework are in separate modules from mapping resolution services. As per the requirements document, for interoperability the identity service module is not mandatory. Hope this clarifies. Padma Tom > > > That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to > > use a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a temporary > > ID for each communication, for certain time spans, or devices. Permanent > > IDs are not acceptable for privacy concerns in many use cases, e.g., > > automotive. As the temporary ID may be looked up by a provider, it may > > be possible to apply per-identiy policies to traffic. If an identifier > > is corrupt or gets attacked, of if a device gets lost or is exchanged, > > the corresponding identifier may be substituted by another. > > > > This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS. > > It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in > > various use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Michael > > > > > > Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert: > >> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth > wrote: > >>> Dear Padma, all, > >>> > >>> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple > >>> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a > >>> base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! > >>> > >>> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), > >>> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication > >>> using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. > >>> > >>> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To > >>> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs > >>> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these > >>> Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's > >>> Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system > and > >>> may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. > >>> > >> Hi Michael, > >> > >> I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor > >> what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of > >> complexity to me. > >> > >> In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The > >> management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a > >> unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers > >> to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care > >> what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple > >> identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system > >> shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the > >> mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used-- > >> so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. > >> Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need > >> tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to > >> query. > >> > >> Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in > >> the scenario I described? > >> > >> Tom > >> > >>> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They > >>> identify the communication partner but not her location on the > Internet. > >>> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed > >>> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows > to > >>> look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This > is > >>> the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved > mobility > >>> (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic > >>> engineering and other flexibility aspects. > >>> > >>> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for > >>> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized > communication > >>> partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoid > >>> being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly > >>> changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access > >>> to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time > to > >>> implement a right to be forgotten. > >>> > >>> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in > >>> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being > >>> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is > >>> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to > >>> avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is > >>> needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other > >>> aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but > should > >>> be brought together in a recommended fashion. > >>> > >> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > >>> University of Tuebingen > >>> Faculty of Science > >>> Department of Computer Science > >>> Chair of Communication Networks > >>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > >>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > >>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > >>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > >>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Ideas mailing list > >>> Ideas@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ideas mailing list > >> Ideas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > >> > > > > -- > > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > > University of Tuebingen > > Faculty of Science > > Department of Computer Science > > Chair of Communication Networks > > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > --001a114b0598e4a3330551bb0c10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tom=C2=A0

See Below for my com= ments

On Sun= , Jun 11, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 11= , 2017 at 2:19 AM, Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split.=
> We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts.
> So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split.
>
> What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above menti= oned
> context. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes > trackable like in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions solv= ed
> that problem. But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking to. = So
> what's desirable is a permanent ID for an identity which can be ma= pped
> to various temporary IDs that are used for communication. A mapping > system associates identities and identifiers but can be queried only b= y
> authorized identifiers. That means, communication becomes transparent = to
> authorized users while protecting privacy against others. However, we<= br> > need to explore how these objectives can be achieved with current
> protocols and what pieces and extensions are missing.
>

Michael,

I think what you're describing is more address obfuscation than ID/loc<= br> split, or in this case it's the identifier being obfuscated. This is being implemented in IPwave for instance to mitigate the tracking
problem. The need for obfuscation is independent of the ID/loc.

Hi Tom

Obfuscation is just a= n aspect of this. This is a bit different from the vehicular case.=C2=A0

Address obfuscation only works to the extent that there aren't other means to track nodes. For instance, even if we were to use different
addresses for each packet of a TCP connection, the connection is
trivial to track but just correlating port numbers, sequence and ack
numbers sent in the clear. The only way to ensure privacy is encrypt
everything possible.


Yes this is true but you will need to = do DPI in you want to act not his packet.
I am specifically think= ing of the case when you have packets in flight and you need to change the = locator.
If you want to avoid anchoring mechanism to do this and = all is encrypted then you will need to decrypt to be able to do any process= ing.
Another example would be ID context awareness which is diffi= cult to achieve today as is and even more so if we start using anon identif= iers that change all the time ...
=C2=A0
In ILA deployment, the intent is that protocol is not visible to
public networks. For instance, in a carrier network ILA would only be
used in the core (like GTP is only in the core today). The carrier
network already knows location anyway, so we don't address obfuscation<= br> there. For packets going to the UE (over radio for instance) we do
need address obfuscation there like IPwave is doing, but again that
can be independent of id/loc.


I think we are talking of two differen= t things here.

You are right address obfuscation c= an be achieved by many ways.
However, if you want to have an anon= ymous ID and yet have someone to discover you and initiate communication wi= th you then there has to be some relationship between on what you can be lo= oked up and the actual id you use.

On the other ha= nd there are other possible functionalities tied the identity that we do no= t have today such as access control or even policies.
=C2=A0
Anyway, if this is really needed, I suggest that it is defined to be
an obfuscation layer separate from id/loc. And it should be optional
and usable outside of id/loc as well.


Absolutely.=C2=A0
The Identity Services in= the framework are in separate modules from mapping resolution services.
As per the requirements document, for interoperability the identity= service module is not mandatory.

Hope this clarif= ies.

Padma

Tom

> That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to=
> use a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a tempora= ry
> ID for each communication, for certain time spans, or devices. Permane= nt
> IDs are not acceptable for privacy concerns in many use cases, e.g., > automotive. As the temporary ID may be looked up by a provider, it may=
> be possible to apply per-identiy policies to traffic. If an identifier=
> is corrupt or gets attacked, of if a device gets lost or is exchanged,=
> the corresponding identifier may be substituted by another.
>
> This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS= .
> It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in > various use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Michael
>
>
> Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert:
>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>>> Dear Padma, all,
>>>
>>> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived fro= m multiple
>>> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This m= ay be a
>>> base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects!
>>>
>>> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Id= ys),
>>> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future commun= ication
>>> using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and = added.
>>>
>>> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity.= To
>>> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary= IDs
>>> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system ma= ps these
>>> Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up a= n Idf's
>>> Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping = system and
>>> may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys.
>>>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifi= ers nor
>> what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of=
>> complexity to me.
>>
>> In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The<= br> >> management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a=
>> unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifie= rs
>> to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don'= t care
>> what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple
>> identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping sys= tem
>> shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in th= e
>> mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used= --
>> so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. >> Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we nee= d
>> tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allow= ed to
>> query.
>>
>> Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better= in
>> the scenario I described?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communicatio= n. They
>>> identify the communication partner but not her location on the= Internet.
>>> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are = needed
>>> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system= allows to
>>> look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Id= f. This is
>>> the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improve= d mobility
>>> (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved t= raffic
>>> engineering and other flexibility aspects.
>>>
>>> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for=
>>> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized com= munication
>>> partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities = can avoid
>>> being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by reg= ularly
>>> changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restric= t access
>>> to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access ov= er time to
>>> implement a right to be forgotten.
>>>
>>> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding priva= cy in
>>> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid= being
>>> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restricti= on is
>>> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encry= pted to
>>> avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition ef= fort is
>>> needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mappin= g. Other
>>> aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces = but should
>>> be brought together in a recommended fashion.
>>>
>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> --
>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>> University of Tuebingen
>>> Faculty of Science
>>> Department of Computer Science
>>> Chair of Communication Networks
>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>> mailto:menth@uni-tue= bingen.de
>>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ideas mailing list
>>> Ideas@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i= deas
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ideas mailing list
>> Ideas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas=
>>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> University of Tuebingen
> Faculty of Science
> Department of Computer Science
> Chair of Communication Networks
> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.d= e
> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

--001a114b0598e4a3330551bb0c10-- From nobody Mon Jun 12 12:20:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FE11296C9 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbW6Sa674QhQ for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 031451296B0 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DOY68612; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:20:51 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.102]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:20:42 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Michael Menth , Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQUtWuhlPu7rEKIIO+qUnKjRKIfNT4AgACkN4CAAb4wMA== Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:20:41 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBB7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.152] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.593EE994.0195, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.102, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 030c5a3a23b831f56d4878662200075f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:20:57 -0000 Hi Michael, Very good and crisp summary. I agree with most of it and would add identity= would also provide benefits providers with various value added services yo= u hinted below. -- Uma C. -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:19 AM To: Tom Herbert Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault ; ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Hi Tom, we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split. We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts. So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split. What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above mentioned cont= ext. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes trackable l= ike in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions solved that problem.= But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking to. So what's desirable is= a permanent ID for an identity which can be mapped to various temporary ID= s that are used for communication. A mapping system associates identities a= nd identifiers but can be queried only by authorized identifiers. That mean= s, communication becomes transparent to authorized users while protecting p= rivacy against others. However, we need to explore how these objectives can= be achieved with current protocols and what pieces and extensions are miss= ing. That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to use = a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a temporary ID for= each communication, for certain time spans, or devices. Permanent IDs are = not acceptable for privacy concerns in many use cases, e.g., automotive. As= the temporary ID may be looked up by a provider, it may be possible to app= ly per-identiy policies to traffic. If an identifier is corrupt or gets att= acked, of if a device gets lost or is exchanged, the corresponding identifi= er may be substituted by another. This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS. It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in variou= s use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split. Best wishes, Michael Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth w= rote: >> Dear Padma, all, >> >> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple=20 >> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a=20 >> base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! >> >> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys),=20 >> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication=20 >> using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. >> >> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To=20 >> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs >> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps=20 >> these Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an=20 >> Idf's Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping=20 >> system and may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. >> > Hi Michael, >=20 > I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor=20 > what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of=20 > complexity to me. >=20 > In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The=20 > management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a=20 > unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers=20 > to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care=20 > what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple=20 > identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system=20 > shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the=20 > mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used--=20 > so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. > Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need=20 > tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to=20 > query. >=20 > Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in=20 > the scenario I described? >=20 > Tom >=20 >> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They=20 >> identify the communication partner but not her location on the Internet. >> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed=20 >> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows=20 >> to look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf.=20 >> This is the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as=20 >> improved mobility (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN,=20 >> improved traffic engineering and other flexibility aspects. >> >> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for=20 >> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized=20 >> communication partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind.=20 >> Entities can avoid being tracked on the Internet by using multiple=20 >> Idfs or by regularly changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf=20 >> mappings can restrict access to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and=20 >> also limit that access over time to implement a right to be forgotten. >> >> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in=20 >> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being=20 >> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is=20 >> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to=20 >> avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is=20 >> needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping.=20 >> Other aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces=20 >> but should be brought together in a recommended fashion. >> >=20 >> Michael >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >> University of Tuebingen >> Faculty of Science >> Department of Computer Science >> Chair of Communication Networks >> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Mon Jun 12 12:26:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD36128DF6 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:25:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3VBvrDQP-hsn for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3EB4128C81 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DOY68483; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:19:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:19:17 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.102]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.162]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:19:14 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Tom Herbert CC: "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQUtWuhlPu7rEKIIO+qUnKjRKIfNT4AgACkN4CAAICQgIAAsncAgACKwtA= Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:19:13 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.152] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAASJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.593EE938.003C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.102, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 030c5a3a23b831f56d4878662200075f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DIJ50500; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:28:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:28:00 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.102]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.162]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:27:56 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert , Michael Menth CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQUMK5vDu+/jkOVvgl6VpgKwqIfNT4AgACkN4CAAICQgIABRPZg Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:27:55 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0DFBD09B@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:28:10 -0000 Hi Michael, I agree with your summary, which I think is very crisp. =20 Hi Tom, obfuscation is one aspect, but I do think there is a little more th= an that because you don't want to just obfuscate, you also want aspects lik= e metadata and policy to still work. In other words, the overall picture i= s more differentiated - while you want to obfuscate identifiers to the outs= ide, but you don't necessarily want your identity to be obfuscated. With p= ure obfuscation of identifiers, you would lose all that. =20 --- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 10:00 AM To: Michael Menth Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault ; ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 2:19 AM, Michael Menth wro= te: > Hi Tom, > > we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split. > We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts. > So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split. > > What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above mentioned=20 > context. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes=20 > trackable like in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions=20 > solved that problem. But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking=20 > to. So what's desirable is a permanent ID for an identity which can be=20 > mapped to various temporary IDs that are used for communication. A=20 > mapping system associates identities and identifiers but can be=20 > queried only by authorized identifiers. That means, communication=20 > becomes transparent to authorized users while protecting privacy=20 > against others. However, we need to explore how these objectives can=20 > be achieved with current protocols and what pieces and extensions are mis= sing. > Michael, I think what you're describing is more address obfuscation than ID/loc spli= t, or in this case it's the identifier being obfuscated. This is being impl= emented in IPwave for instance to mitigate the tracking problem. The need f= or obfuscation is independent of the ID/loc. Address obfuscation only works to the extent that there aren't other means = to track nodes. For instance, even if we were to use different addresses fo= r each packet of a TCP connection, the connection is trivial to track but j= ust correlating port numbers, sequence and ack numbers sent in the clear. T= he only way to ensure privacy is encrypt everything possible. In ILA deployment, the intent is that protocol is not visible to public net= works. For instance, in a carrier network ILA would only be used in the cor= e (like GTP is only in the core today). The carrier network already knows l= ocation anyway, so we don't address obfuscation there. For packets going to= the UE (over radio for instance) we do need address obfuscation there like= IPwave is doing, but again that can be independent of id/loc. Anyway, if this is really needed, I suggest that it is defined to be an obf= uscation layer separate from id/loc. And it should be optional and usable o= utside of id/loc as well. Tom > That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to=20 > use a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a=20 > temporary ID for each communication, for certain time spans, or=20 > devices. Permanent IDs are not acceptable for privacy concerns in many=20 > use cases, e.g., automotive. As the temporary ID may be looked up by a=20 > provider, it may be possible to apply per-identiy policies to traffic.=20 > If an identifier is corrupt or gets attacked, of if a device gets lost=20 > or is exchanged, the corresponding identifier may be substituted by anoth= er. > > This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS. > It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in=20 > various use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split. > > Best wishes, > > Michael > > > Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert: >> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth = wrote: >>> Dear Padma, all, >>> >>> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple=20 >>> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be=20 >>> a base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! >>> >>> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys),=20 >>> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future=20 >>> communication using existing protocols. Missing features are identified= and added. >>> >>> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To=20 >>> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs >>> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps=20 >>> these Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up=20 >>> an Idf's Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the=20 >>> mapping system and may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. >>> >> Hi Michael, >> >> I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor=20 >> what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of=20 >> complexity to me. >> >> In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The=20 >> management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a=20 >> unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers=20 >> to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care=20 >> what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple=20 >> identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system=20 >> shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the=20 >> mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used--=20 >> so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. >> Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need=20 >> tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to=20 >> query. >> >> Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in=20 >> the scenario I described? >> >> Tom >> >>> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication.=20 >>> They identify the communication partner but not her location on the Int= ernet. >>> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed=20 >>> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system=20 >>> allows to look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the=20 >>> Idy/Idf. This is the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such=20 >>> as improved mobility (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale=20 >>> SDN, improved traffic engineering and other flexibility aspects. >>> >>> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for=20 >>> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized=20 >>> communication partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind.=20 >>> Entities can avoid being tracked on the Internet by using multiple=20 >>> Idfs or by regularly changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf=20 >>> mappings can restrict access to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and=20 >>> also limit that access over time to implement a right to be forgotten. >>> >>> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in=20 >>> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being=20 >>> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is=20 >>> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted=20 >>> to avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition=20 >>> effort is needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy=20 >>> mapping. Other aspects of this concept can be assembled from=20 >>> existing pieces but should be brought together in a recommended fashion= . >>> >> >>> Michael >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >>> University of Tuebingen >>> Faculty of Science >>> Department of Computer Science >>> Chair of Communication Networks >>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ideas mailing list >>> Ideas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Mon Jun 12 13:40:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F13129AA0 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mtOvsMnY3ojy for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x242.google.com (mail-wr0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7F31293E8 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x242.google.com with SMTP id g76so24662018wrd.2 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:39:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yZPyjr6M2N3KqO+1W0xic6LInAX/YFv16hGVJEVpzlI=; b=wVlgADQ+74TQSCczkkXxFTTewDNIi5k1ZsxZ8vZMfuagI7qK8scA2tLm+apFwrvtBN vNRHIMRndeXpioHmCPyzbccW5AyhhPs67xZAVMCYIzan4+jnQ7KAolIEElSMiW33WvTr 8m+gfnUhPLElW/PwCJQTDU5ii1a/3deGDrQoXoJKk2b5iFv65txIswzN1Vxxk6exCEBs jfeGA5HYLVAiD7NzX0ZOVkKD+gEX+A0z2nsfIiIe+Sk0O/Dlfxp0NhpWkAE/4ZCsXUkQ OnJ93qD9lqWQJoJKAC+tHuKkAXxoMvanUIap24Eh8jxteePiLz/A+QT6/bg3RAsjjJOO ZQNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yZPyjr6M2N3KqO+1W0xic6LInAX/YFv16hGVJEVpzlI=; b=TUvLkreWcrhtu7wCgwjsfGLBY301Hfdz7cr7lUEJVO9t9kjO1X0OvUA6O3a8QufDkb u7smWuAkmfi3s5hFi20oWouA9qaeZUJHHS4pDJqlxwTKyEiazGvBQB1mNy6CxdT2J5Dx NVJE/d1ZP/asF5gbne/TO4/PgDUtiCVVnHRtNKizLs0oFVInmF2STOux/rXnXAISLisA uMvpV7IsqXV5KIy4MwDauqOrBVRlIji/MlX25xDLDNN+p3rUkJ81/pHvsPHXCuzjs/mH Doweuo89UhlZoNTuvbSSlTJx2MFmFUXyk/7w661I5R+lDEtuPhp+GS9BHqkYLFCR/+w6 9nZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOyIjKz4Nymuz3kvJkNfFGy+7pU+zikwbfh6a/AkKMYZ/8XNxD1d doec+BYOH2BAGUx03wU9MyUVW04ypae+ X-Received: by 10.223.183.32 with SMTP id l32mr427671wre.115.1497299998022; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:39:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.2 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:39:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Uma Chunduri Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:40:04 -0000 On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Uma Chunduri wr= ote: > Hi Tom, > > > > Just want to add 2 specific points on top of what Padma said below =E2=80= =93 > > > >>I think what you're describing is more address obfuscation than ID/loc >> split, or in this case it's the identifier being obfuscated. This is bei= ng >> implemented in IPwave for instance to mitigate the tracking problem. The >> need for obfuscation is independent of the ID/loc. > >>Address obfuscation only works to the extent that there aren't other mean= s >> to track nodes. For instance, even if we were to use different addresses= for >> each packet of a TCP connection, the connection is trivial to track but = just >> correlating port numbers, > >>sequence and ack numbers sent in the clear. The only way to ensure privac= y >> is encrypt everything possible. > > > > Encryption for obfuscation of identifiers is a too much of a stretch. > Encryption has its own place and I see it is orthogonal to Identifier > obfuscation. While in an unencrypted and obfuscated identifiers, one can > see some aspects of TCP connection, what cannot be done by the eavesdropp= er > is identifying 2 independent communications related to a particular enti= ty. > I see this is truly network layer anonymous communication, if we have th= e > ability to change communication identifiers at will (while maintaining th= e > same identifier for entire session for mobility reasons). > > To achieve this a manageable entity called =E2=80=98Identity=E2=80=99 for= an entity at a > central place is needed, where mapping and other identity related servic= es > can be provided as hinted in GRIDS-REQs document. > Uma, I understand the intent, but I am still dubious 'Identity' is actually required and should be in the core architecture for IDEAS. This is not a concept in any of the identifier locator protocols. Also, a host can obfuscate addresses today just by choosing a different address from the block they are assigned for each communication. In id/loc the same affect could accomplished by the host getting however many identifiers it needs to use. > > > > >>In ILA deployment, the intent is that protocol is not visible to public >> networks. For instance, in a carrier network ILA would only be used in t= he >> core (like GTP is only in the core today). The carrier network already k= nows >> location anyway, so we don't address obfuscation there. For packets goin= g to >> the UE (over radio for > >>instance) we do need address obfuscation there like IPwave is doing, but >> again that can be independent of id/loc. > > > > Obfuscation at radio layer is not in our scope (it=E2=80=99s 3GPP stuff) = and they > defined =E2=80=98some provisions=E2=80=99 as you stated above. But we are= talking about > obfuscation generically though various ID/LOC protocols in the internet a= nd > beyond managed transport network in 3GPP. > > > >>Anyway, if this is really needed, I suggest that it is defined to be an >> obfuscation layer separate from id/loc. And it should be optional and us= able >> outside of id/loc as well. > > > > I see obfuscation provided through Identity and this is indeed separate > layer (above Identifier-location mapping) at the mapping system, where > Identity to Identifiers can be mapped with certain policies associated to > Identity. > > IMO, this has lot of potential for providers to bring in new revenues (of > course if it is done correct). > That's a poor rationalization for creating a new complex protocol. Tom > -- > > Uma C. > > > > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma > Pillay-Esnault > Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 8:38 PM > To: Tom Herbert > Cc: ideas@ietf.org; Michael Menth > Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement > > > > > > Hi Tom > > > > See Below for my comments > > > > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 2:19 AM, Michael Menth > wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> >> we have alreaday LISP, ILA, and ILNP for implentation of Loc/ID split. >> We have DNS and DDT as mapping systems used in these contexts. >> So, there is already quite some support for basic Loc/ID split. >> >> What's missing is an adequate protection of IDs in the above mentioned >> context. When communicating with a unique ID, communication becomes >> trackable like in the early days of IPv6. IPv6 privacy extensions solved >> that problem. But with IPv6 we don't know whom we are talking to. So >> what's desirable is a permanent ID for an identity which can be mapped >> to various temporary IDs that are used for communication. A mapping >> system associates identities and identifiers but can be queried only by >> authorized identifiers. That means, communication becomes transparent to >> authorized users while protecting privacy against others. However, we >> need to explore how these objectives can be achieved with current >> protocols and what pieces and extensions are missing. >> > > Michael, > > I think what you're describing is more address obfuscation than ID/loc > split, or in this case it's the identifier being obfuscated. This is > being implemented in IPwave for instance to mitigate the tracking > problem. The need for obfuscation is independent of the ID/loc. > > Hi Tom > > > > Obfuscation is just an aspect of this. This is a bit different from the > vehicular case. > > > > Address obfuscation only works to the extent that there aren't other > means to track nodes. For instance, even if we were to use different > addresses for each packet of a TCP connection, the connection is > trivial to track but just correlating port numbers, sequence and ack > numbers sent in the clear. The only way to ensure privacy is encrypt > everything possible. > > > > Yes this is true but you will need to do DPI in you want to act not his > packet. > > I am specifically thinking of the case when you have packets in flight an= d > you need to change the locator. > > If you want to avoid anchoring mechanism to do this and all is encrypted > then you will need to decrypt to be able to do any processing. > > Another example would be ID context awareness which is difficult to achie= ve > today as is and even more so if we start using anon identifiers that chan= ge > all the time ... > > > > In ILA deployment, the intent is that protocol is not visible to > public networks. For instance, in a carrier network ILA would only be > used in the core (like GTP is only in the core today). The carrier > network already knows location anyway, so we don't address obfuscation > there. For packets going to the UE (over radio for instance) we do > need address obfuscation there like IPwave is doing, but again that > can be independent of id/loc. > > > > I think we are talking of two different things here. > > > > You are right address obfuscation can be achieved by many ways. > > However, if you want to have an anonymous ID and yet have someone to > discover you and initiate communication with you then there has to be som= e > relationship between on what you can be looked up and the actual id you u= se. > > > > On the other hand there are other possible functionalities tied the ident= ity > that we do not have today such as access control or even policies. > > > > Anyway, if this is really needed, I suggest that it is defined to be > an obfuscation layer separate from id/loc. And it should be optional > and usable outside of id/loc as well. > > > > Absolutely. > > The Identity Services in the framework are in separate modules from mappi= ng > resolution services. > > As per the requirements document, for interoperability the identity servi= ce > module is not mandatory. > > > > Hope this clarifies. > > > > Padma > > > > Tom > > >> That mechanism may be an enabler for true Loc/ID split as it allows to >> use a permanent ID for identity (think of user contract) and a temporary >> ID for each communication, for certain time spans, or devices. Permanent >> IDs are not acceptable for privacy concerns in many use cases, e.g., >> automotive. As the temporary ID may be looked up by a provider, it may >> be possible to apply per-identiy policies to traffic. If an identifier >> is corrupt or gets attacked, of if a device gets lost or is exchanged, >> the corresponding identifier may be substituted by another. >> >> This is the filtered result of several telcos with proponents of IDEAS. >> It requires some effort to clearly outline the potential of IDEAS in >> various use cases as we're looking really beyond Loc/ID split. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Michael >> >> >> Am 11.06.2017 um 01:31 schrieb Tom Herbert: >>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Michael Menth >>> wrote: >>>> Dear Padma, all, >>>> >>>> I've tried to condense the essence of what I perceived from multiple >>>> IDEAS brainstormings, documents, and email discussions. This may be a >>>> base for a problem statement. Please add missing aspects! >>>> >>>> IDentity-EnAbled networkS (IDEAS) describes how identities (Idys), >>>> identifiers (Idfs), and locators may be used for future communication >>>> using existing protocols. Missing features are identified and added. >>>> >>>> An Idy is a permanent ID (PID) to uniquely identify an entity. To >>>> protect its privacy, an entity may choose additional temporary IDs >>>> (TIDs) for communications, so-called Idfs. A mapping system maps these >>>> Idfs to their Idy so that communication partners may look up an Idf's >>>> Idy. To preserve its privacy, the entity controls the mapping system a= nd >>>> may restrict access to it for certain Idfs or Idys. >>>> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> I'm not following we need to have both identities and identifiers nor >>> what the operational difference would be. This seems like a lot of >>> complexity to me. >>> >>> In ILA for instance, there are just identifiers and locators. The >>> management plane creates identifiers on request (every task gets a >>> unique identifier for instance). The mapping system maps identifiers >>> to locators. Identifiers identify something but we really don't care >>> what they identify. The same object could be assigned multiple >>> identifiers for privacy as you describe below, but the mapping system >>> shouldn't care about that. Identifiers can be registered in the >>> mapping system, and then unregistered when they are no longer used-- >>> so there's no concept of permanent or temporary identifiers. >>> Uniqueness of identifiers is a key attribute. For security, we need >>> tight control over who can modify the mappings and who's allowed to >>> query. >>> >>> Can you maybe elaborate on how identities would make things better in >>> the scenario I described? >>> >>> Tom >>> >>>> Both Idys and preferentially Idfs may be used for communication. They >>>> identify the communication partner but not her location on the Interne= t. >>>> To denote the location of an entity, one or more locators are needed >>>> that describe how the Idy/Idf can be reached. A mapping system allows = to >>>> look up the locators so that traffic can be sent to the Idy/Idf. This = is >>>> the well-known Loc/ID split providing benefits such as improved mobili= ty >>>> (e.g. for VMs in a datacenter), Internet-scale SDN, improved traffic >>>> engineering and other flexibility aspects. >>>> >>>> The advantage of that system is that entities may use Idfs for >>>> communication to better protect their Idy. Only authorized communicati= on >>>> partners can find out the corresponding Idys behind. Entities can avoi= d >>>> being tracked on the Internet by using multiple Idfs or by regularly >>>> changing Idfs. The control of the Idy/Idf mappings can restrict access >>>> to selected requesting Idys/Idfs and also limit that access over time = to >>>> implement a right to be forgotten. >>>> >>>> The concept improves the current LISP protocol by adding privacy in >>>> communication in a similar way as IPv6 privacy extension avoid being >>>> tracked by a stable MAC address. To that end, access restriction is >>>> needed for mapping system requests which also need to be encrypted to >>>> avoid eavesdropping. Therefore, a major protocol definition effort is >>>> needed for the mapping system that provides the Idf/Idy mapping. Other >>>> aspects of this concept can be assembled from existing pieces but shou= ld >>>> be brought together in a recommended fashion. >>>> >>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >>>> University of Tuebingen >>>> Faculty of Science >>>> Department of Computer Science >>>> Chair of Communication Networks >>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >>>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ideas mailing list >>>> Ideas@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ideas mailing list >>> Ideas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>> >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >> University of Tuebingen >> Faculty of Science >> Department of Computer Science >> Chair of Communication Networks >> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > > From nobody Mon Jun 12 14:12:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AFB12025C for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V5pi85vDtJ_5 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A79581296CF for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DIJ58754; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:06:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 22:06:02 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.102]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:05:57 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQUtWuhlPu7rEKIIO+qUnKjRKIfNT4AgACkN4CAAICQgIAAsncAgACKwtCAAJKtgP//jZ4A Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:05:57 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEC59@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.152] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.593F023D.0074, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.102, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 06ed1da8402859dd023d3530cbaf7c4a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Tue, 13 Jun 2017 02:15:32 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.135) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 09:15:18 +0800 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.218]) by dggemi402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.135]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 09:15:10 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Uma Chunduri , Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQR7noYz6KCuk2UPDHXAfzSE6IeOckAgACkN4CAAICQgIAAsncAgAEG4YCAABaOgIAAB0SAgADGNKA= Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 01:15:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEC59@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEC59@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: text/plain; 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([169.254.4.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 22:16:45 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQUtWuhlPu7rEKIIO+qUnKjRKIfNT4AgACkN4CAAICQgIAAsncAgACKwtCAAJKtgP//jZ4AgAC/RoD//8uv0A== Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 05:16:44 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CFD9B@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEC59@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.247.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.593F754C.004E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.102, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 06ed1da8402859dd023d3530cbaf7c4a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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From nobody Mon Jun 12 23:10:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1006B129B47 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 23:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZuxheuhELSH for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 23:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0082E129541 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 23:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DOZ31779; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 06:10:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 07:10:48 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.142) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 14:10:37 +0800 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.218]) by dggemi404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 14:10:29 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Uma Chunduri , Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement Thread-Index: AQHS4cQR7noYz6KCuk2UPDHXAfzSE6IeOckAgACkN4CAAICQgIAAsncAgAEG4YCAABaOgIAAB0SAgADGNKD//8LsAIAAlQGg Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 06:10:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <69375c9a-d184-03db-9b44-6be8de8a9b6f@uni-tuebingen.de> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEBAA@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CEC59@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CFD9B@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854018CFD9B@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.593F81EA.0005, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.218, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 030c5a3a23b831f56d4878662200075f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] BOF @IETF 99 Preparation - problem statement X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 06:10:56 -0000 VmVyeSBjbGVhciwgdGhhbmsgeW91IFVtYS4gDQoNClRoYW5rcw0KQmluZ3lhbmcgKEJyeWFuKQ0K DQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogVW1hIENodW5kdXJpIA0KU2VudDog VHVlc2RheSwgSnVuZSAxMywgMjAxNyAxOjE3IFBNDQpUbzogTGl1YmluZ3lhbmcgKEJyeWFuKSA8 bGl1YmluZ3lhbmdAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IFRvbSBIZXJiZXJ0IDx0b21AaGVyYmVydGxhbmQuY29t Pg0KQ2M6IFBhZG1hIFBpbGxheS1Fc25hdWx0IDxwYWRtYS5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IGlkZWFz QGlldGYub3JnOyBNaWNoYWVsIE1lbnRoIDxtZW50aEB1bmktdHVlYmluZ2VuLmRlPg0KU3ViamVj dDogUkU6IFtJZGVhc10gQk9GIEBJRVRGIDk5IFByZXBhcmF0aW9uIC0gcHJvYmxlbSBzdGF0ZW1l bnQNCg0KSGkgQmluZ3lhbmcsDQoNClZlcnkgZ29vZCBzdW1tYXJ5LiANClNlZSBteSByZXBsaWVz IGJlbG93IFtVbWFdOg0KDQotLQ0KVW1hIEMuDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0t DQpGcm9tOiBMaXViaW5neWFuZyAoQnJ5YW4pDQpTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEp1bmUgMTIsIDIwMTcg NjoxNSBQTQ0KVG86IFVtYSBDaHVuZHVyaSA8dW1hLmNodW5kdXJpQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+OyBUb20g 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ideas-chairs@ietf.org, smccammon@amsl.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.54.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149736757175.7611.13983885513248704906.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 08:26:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] ideas - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 15:26:12 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Stephanie McCammon, on behalf of the ideas working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IDentity Enabled Networks Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Stephanie McCammon Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: rtgarea opsarea nvo3 hip netconf i2rs nmrg sfc anima lisp dprive intarea dnsop People who must be present: Erik Nordmark Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Jun 15 08:37:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D40129A99 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 08:37:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YbDTSMVaqepw for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46DF612EA24 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5946; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1497541034; x=1498750634; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=8skW9kTW8g7O8HBYIfzCdvggfGnkwHGDSWgQgyEbSoY=; b=eht3Jk83IBxQgGJZuLuHUtHW6o2D5TUqtUMwvz0+0DxjNpbGhElxPvWc XzbqF1/CskWy6aageQtLnthtNBW9vK96tDT5kA2se4retMgK5/6Mn89RU e6Du4irZ7v/D6ls6y7JY5X4fhDZfN1TmhrKrbcpwPBH7X8o3Sh0ERWdEK U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A4AQCNqEJZ/5ldJa1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgm9pYoENB4NvihiRd4griCKFOoIRhiQcgkY/GAECAQEBAQEBAWsdC4U?= =?us-ascii?q?ZAQQBI1YFDQEIPwMCBB8RFBMEDgWJSEwDDQiqYoImK4cKDYQAAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBHYZigguCd4JYhSQwgjEFlw6HADsCjmyEZ5ILi1GJLQEfOIE?= =?us-ascii?q?KdBVbAYZ8dohFgQ0BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.39,343,1493683200"; d="scan'208,217";a="256083912" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Jun 2017 15:37:13 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v5FFbDSf031420 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:37:13 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:37:12 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:37:12 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "ideas@ietf.org" CC: Erik Nordmark , Tim Wicinski , Brian Haberman Thread-Topic: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 Thread-Index: AQHS5e1Ct5EYLoKLCUaM9c2lP3LG4A== Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:37:12 +0000 Message-ID: <484373A1-72C3-4B0E-8E4F-9A2DC64E8D3C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.66.78] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_484373A172C34B0E8E4F9A2DC64E8D3Cciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 00:07:04 -0000 Dear Cindy Morgan, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. ideas Session 1 (1:30:00) Wednesday, Afternoon Session I 1330-1500 Room Name: Congress Hall II size: 350 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IDentity Enabled Networks Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Cindy Morgan Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: lisp anima sfc nmrg i2rs netconf hip nvo3 opsarea rtgarea dprive intarea dnsop People who must be present: Erik Nordmark Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jun 30 02:31:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7375B129B37; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 02:31:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZgDWhbbqmz_f; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 02:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABBD6128B8E; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 02:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 70so4746267wmo.1; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 02:31:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dtN7AB+hZgqRIjqxc4SPhtIy0IIUq4VyY8biZCzImnw=; b=gBga46WXIy5NHzf+tdw3GjAYm199FdFbFmWiSk9gb8ogt0UyLTyng8d8COpPkeOhI5 ZFatf9zF4UGIIUx0hIs+hBcIJ83TBOR6XDakqTMmMvywUfkaNh3JabzkNFeGFWfXltCK ygN0MG8x7bucT3Bx+MNJ0jaBf195Y01MKDnRnZsjyP+R+7s/IlkOODOXX7dDcUxCFaK8 q88MjNiRLddBiwS6mrLNPY/Jdn8hSa1WMdUoFiTB/l7T8B+8ukXZBhbu4RB1vLZYL0LH 7rjDq/EvM1b1ZWjnNqDTU55+y5hoF/ohuSICRD3aPrlS1WJNEDBFdEx+fk3Ikarye+ad Zbag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dtN7AB+hZgqRIjqxc4SPhtIy0IIUq4VyY8biZCzImnw=; b=smxb0uUtxXPSNuCjOb/mxfKkdTnwtJI7tPBQGCnkpn/MXj6YaDni3MmhvlTsWyu3iN 6owr5nsyAHiqR6iiPAe8gtiPkqJY4VeTgbnkfiu0TlWR4Tbuvec1+UM+F5uoCZmBbwnT WvFtuwPD1hPyv/13KCd2Vgiae10zLfjGh+0joJtVVXRBM8VTJ1k1UmRrbTTSNkmPx+sm o9Z2P1DnBfSscG2dXpAYarKj7uQtQShUF/Y4lXctDPglrkNKNfd/1SYJUn7xSWdVMyNp I8mwsfy2dzAw/aKrzhHN5W/etqANi4H17ij9ZFNwWB6vVSo0CBPs6u1NMEfjUNilT61k lOwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOz/s38+/K+Lvtn0J2Ic04BFKQ7AwxYZ/UoNf8tADbaglUnwsivl qT+Ve0Se7GPfP3UPehUTCno7UDoCqg== X-Received: by 10.28.35.201 with SMTP id j192mr5383409wmj.103.1498815093027; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 02:31:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.152 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 02:31:32 -0700 (PDT) From: tjw ietf Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:31:32 +0200 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Cc: ideas-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113eab42343ae705532a15bf" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Call for Presentation for IDEAs BoF X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:31:36 -0000 --001a113eab42343ae705532a15bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Greetings, As your co-chair, I wanted to say hello and if you are interested in presenting in the BoF please drop the chairs an email. Please also state if you need to do a remote presentation. The last portion of the meeting we're going to set aside for an open discussion of if their is enough work to proceed into a group. Thanks tim --001a113eab42343ae705532a15bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings,

As your co-ch= air, I wanted to say hello and if you are interested in presenting in the B= oF please drop the chairs an email. =C2=A0 Please also state if you need to= do a remote presentation.

The last portion of the= meeting we're going to set aside for an open discussion of if their is= enough work to proceed into a group.=C2=A0

Thanks=
tim

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