From nobody Mon Jul 3 16:25:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B481812955F for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fCzCxSubfkQf for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8829131769 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id k67so240231351wrc.2 for ; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 16:25:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1juSREXyPb6JxriOAi4/hpB4NGmOqiGa06g+SBvub7A=; b=mbmoYOLgPqAZcA8du5BUVU0FCgo8/Xw76SY87Jx1BfXSg+3TpNavd8L0Rpg12qp3eL acTHgRzZyPMwWzJIfOHjsEj505oRbDcEAYz4X5RmWf4WK1y8od7k8qckj1tbwlOJMBQ+ RnH7PNiFctXAECHTwmd3etdtKZybPEDN1SwXIggCgH5244cilyEE1G7YnKnsJvqjXJdy ABSnH91r1loaHwqYX0ODSt1wEgnE2yXwlgVdI3Vn7msQ3CoW6XQx8h0EVH+dJTZE+96s xjEC21YH7OIhCGGMOM9f6kGriH6YZ7sUN4fVHpcgZZcZphVN2vmEPBXxtw+VWlxZvftl DoRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1juSREXyPb6JxriOAi4/hpB4NGmOqiGa06g+SBvub7A=; b=uTnER2VlrltrqUnyJboTuUi/0QGWHvMbmS+1R2YWItm6+qvwPF66xNVWMaIFx0iTqk 37cAy0/ElahXlzhk7pWVmyc3sOOx5EMSsKVbPTPm33YDLIiUzHhboVKWHMATpnKC/Rhf 8bzoWTCvpFA7mAO+tlacSwnqZDwFIfc1XPCLtSlzcvQIoR6T0KHbAg9tBtGfeFFNNXsK ea1rYn47CteTZ4hiZB6m0i7uanqGTiCIl1ighE1qSFQ4xv20916ue1sczGvOeCkAmBwU +8lMxPtha1LyzZcWJfbu5ylRlV959ee/0dsipMNbkrB4MuW0ojoxtpvYKG7XozBiVMEF UJpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOzZeGor+LJ6pgapPgOl885m9qySzxqlHvJUnTX52f9MJPEtxgdH C5QzNQD1l/QahKR9bH7CyMNrypbZV1hB X-Received: by 10.223.176.119 with SMTP id g52mr34643598wra.26.1499124309156; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 16:25:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.152 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:25:08 -0700 (PDT) From: tjw ietf Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 19:25:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="001a113cae76ec03f10553721394" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Draft Agenda for IETF99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 23:25:13 -0000 --001a113cae76ec03f10553721394 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113cae76ec03ee0553721392" --001a113cae76ec03ee0553721392 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi We've uploaded the initial agenda for IETF99. Please take a look and make sure we didn't miss any requests. We'll flesh this out over the coming days. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-99-ideas/ thanks and we look forward to some interesting discussions your chairs, Tim Wicinski Brian Haberman --001a113cae76ec03ee0553721392 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi

We've uploaded the in= itial agenda for IETF99. Please take a look and make sure we didn't mis= s any requests. We'll flesh this out over the coming days.=C2=A0
<= div>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-99-ideas/<= /div>

thanks and we look forward to some interesting dis= cussions

your chairs,

Tim= Wicinski
Brian Haberman
--001a113cae76ec03ee0553721392-- --001a113cae76ec03f10553721394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; name="ideas-ietf99-agenda.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ideas-ietf99-agenda.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_j4orvyiu0 IyMgSURlbnRpdHkgRW5hYmxlZCBOZXR3b3JrcyAoSURFQXMpIEJvRgojIElFVEYgOTksIFByYWd1 ZQoKIyMjIERhdGU6IDE5IEp1bHkgMjAxNwojIyMgVGltZTogMTM6MzAtMTU6MDAgQ0VTVAojIyMg Um9vbTogQ29uZ3Jlc3MgSGFsbCBJSQojIyMgQ2hhaXJzOiBUaW0gV2ljaW5za2kgPHRqdy5pZXRm QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4KIyMjIENoYWlyczogQnJpYW4gSGFiZXJtYW4gPGJyaWFuQGlubm92YXRpb25z bGFiLm5ldD4KCklFU0cgT3ZlcmxvcmQ6ICBBbHZhcm8gUmV0YW5hIDxhcmV0YW5hQGNpc2NvLmNv bT4KCltEYXRhVHJhY2tlcl0oaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy93Zy9pZGVhcy9k b2N1bWVudHMvKQoKLS0tCiMgQWdlbmRhCiMjICBBZ2VuZGEgQmFzaGluZywgQmx1ZSBTaGVldHMs IGV0YywgIDEwIG1pbgoKIyMgV2h5IEFyZSBXZSBIZXJlPywgMTAgbWluCgojIyBkcmFmdC1wYWRt YS1pZGVhcy1wcm9ibGVtLXN0YXRlbWVudCwgUGlsbGF5LUVzbmF1bHQgMTUgbWluCmh0dHBzOi8v ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LXBhZG1hLWlkZWFzLXByb2JsZW0tc3RhdGVt ZW50LwoKIyMgIElkZW50aXRpZXMgYW5kIElkZW50aWZpZXJzIGZvciBJT04gYW5kIHRoZSBJRVRG LCBNb3Nrb3dpdHosIDVtaW4KCiMjIEhvc3QgSWRlbnRpdHkgUHJvdG9jb2xzIG9uIElkZW50aXR5 IGFuZCBNQVBpbmcsIE1vc2tvd2l0eiwgMTBtaW4KCiMjIGRyYWZ0LXh5ei1pZGVhcy1nYXAtYW5h bHlzaXMsIDE1bWluCmh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LXh5ei1p ZGVhcy1nYXAtYW5hbHlzaXMvCgojIyBOZXh0IFN0ZXBzLCAzMCBtaW51dGVzCgojIyMgQ2hhcnRl cj8KCg== --001a113cae76ec03f10553721394-- From nobody Tue Jul 4 13:48:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC5131834 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KazZ1Si9juGm for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08C3F131821 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.26] ([95.174.184.130]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue005 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LaYSx-1e8NbM2fs7-00mMnX for ; Tue, 04 Jul 2017 22:48:40 +0200 From: "Dirk Kutscher" To: ideas@ietf.org Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 22:48:31 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.6r5347) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:9cX47JHY6QPfZAOFZkLae1jUWK2n4S20DRMods0mvXMoiMQotok vPZX05jM5c/8JZgyPJBDWpOYzY6n/9yyFqdhQMmvLWxoKPJdFQCXeslMBJx4/ATqRXpflGX uTQ4fqsbBJ+7txDnEilvGZea25gf4kFe/63ihJFd66qut70hFjhtCqvohSm/acnqtA1au1k YKmZrylP9mbBvm+334Ukg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:vaZL100s9D4=:kjFBAveyjhnwJTrC3MVtpc EnGNgEuujD+Tghm7wrPRC1XWU5183lLqq3HxzcABxuSIwNolT9MZYAIudnYp4+Rjz2cIyhys8 XuJ0uwJzqxlVMMCkIy123z7hF1PfM9ja/TCTijsqRkorud9tY6ZbGYRG9vrXZukBZNVbi1UWa If5/RwT5HGXhhSPwphGUcn71Z30HRa78IMeW2p8KsfqTaT03H2Afm+mjPF7uwbX1zc68fKv8x DizfPJZoQrMR1WgzaEH4LDs5I1OfrQqLxfp8fznXHzyBS7xgRxsEjP6AJ6kKBO1l0VJU+6CGh BMourpJDi7w7kAQ5hqp6V9dFsHdTfhFSNqsEQ13sJIWEsvQgDjKX6VUYdqSAomFLgu2peMn6l KC3KItj3gskuarDqWSdS3gbHtOKmtjTKMPy0A3BFiLJwc20YPijLV2qLh82zZTD82BZJrNFas TPiXb47Z11iG5/0j4+UidlD4EWFlRu6clJPbVAb8iQMjbViicuZoNTZAgock0OWpKiK7p8zw2 El5i6CyfJpo7zZQVlukDxkoPzqazuL5i8J1dsRM+OtYytBcevzaB2clW9mmVvecU03F4xObtm +ld5jVjwTT7ozf3EdDPJlyQ40dTO7/kije6qe2RVRLH9kx7zKOHNNFCuWRopt59R8QWpZ4AcJ n1Y+XKihdUJ+Fzm23wXhhWdNVLqBRznwyWoB0euUsSfcghjbFpDWviGcCI7SyCwIg8rN1gqBS 4d+c7MQwcGF9MBBA Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Side meeting on Distributed Internet Infrastructure at IETF-99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 20:48:44 -0000 [This might be related to some of the ideas in IDEAS — apologies if you receive it more than once] Hi all, we are holding another side meeting on Distributed Internet Infrastructure at IETF-99. We had some good discussions with interested folks in and outside the IRTF in the past months and thought that it might be a good time now to try to start a more structured activity in the IRTF. The scope would be “Distributed Internet Infrastructure”, I.e., applying distributed ledger technologies (such as blockchain, but not limited to it) to Internet technologies, for example to decentralized name registries, identity management, decentralized web etc. We have some people looking at the topic from different angles, i.e., IoT, decentralized web, Internet architecture and think that there is an interesting and potentially very productive scope we could work in the IRTF. The meeting to discuss this will be a side meeting on Monday, July 17, 18:50 to 20:50 in the Tyrolka room of the Hilton hotel (meeting hotel). The agenda (as of current planning): 1) Background and Purpose 2) Selected Use Cases and Related Efforts - Decentralized OAuth - IoT - COALA.global 3) Ledger Technology 4) Next steps, RG Formation We’ll post agenda details, updated etc. on https://trac.ietf.org/trac/irtf/wiki/blockchain-federation Let us know in case you have any question or are interested to get involved! Best regards, Dirk (on behalf of co-organizers) From nobody Wed Jul 5 06:36:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190AE131D0A for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 06:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BysXQUky8tuI for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 06:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F4CB131D11 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 06:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4DE615D8 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:36:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7p6TzvnpMRC0 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A9EB16093E for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:36:03 -0400 (EDT) To: ideas@ietf.org From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:35:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:36:15 -0000 Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane". We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data modeling of what is intended to be stored/available. Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools. It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap analysis, and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO is focus now. So I propose two work items: Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in YANG). Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP comparision. Bob From nobody Wed Jul 5 07:02:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286EF128CF0 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:02:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ijyXd9J0ruUx for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50D2B128AB0 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id c73so130269352pfk.2 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:02:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=S16n1UeD8sbD7CeE9ZwyewmErEB8JVbEgsEw+xOLRho=; b=UvxxlZ/XdCZFW3cjyjSrOvT8vxh4QaRYWSchGrDjCHFsnn3Gn0MKuw7PXYlbibcO7w fQnEYBmMc18WMiR6BTOkHcgaGZvQ8+DYlJxceJP86Z3sT2GPUcA0nkaDJ7thtjFmNjS5 VebeLvxkg/IXEJOVXJHKdl9e2Hxhbh2Eeq60dgX4RGGfI/SpIcgIqpIrPEehY7vV0pkh pQ2smwF6gzM2jz7VlsLkHw+bPMDHXAiHeiIhU3zQG3UimvYluPCDehp3XpTa9nX1Bd+z 7ClvLbmDkr4alBT5q39BJD+zS5PO4KIbIQFeQjz9AyWp/XPv9lfPl+l7rFPrr6wOHxud L+fw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=S16n1UeD8sbD7CeE9ZwyewmErEB8JVbEgsEw+xOLRho=; b=S8NZL8vf30MxUApPkUUlcO3lnW3/dkQdv63QNvGd53FN7ssYy6f5T6AHnsYnQ1vCm/ +AT20gb1Iu14IY2QK142/FSDJglPVuIyCaUO6567RrKygj88sdZ5PvskVRFDr2s+S+df KukTixMbd8qPRDphE6cXHLWe1gpTTDo0ZQQPLK5WEDrAo/hTMd+WtLXf6SAqK/2g2WZr VimWBApr4A3WEzly9wgcGpWqF7BMZNCQOhbvaNdE9tYEiJdNANuCUwaHsKVtN0rOtUgc GJpXLkZM9I81jGGckrUJcKf2C6Y3uo21LMqyC6PPLb4lBOw6j2IfG8LKuU/dp15PC/vM n72A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110FIg3sN5xDq4uu5fwUoYTMF+k/z5KDy96aqH18NOH7XboWunGT Qr5fgIKogagrQutWjf8= X-Received: by 10.99.114.19 with SMTP id n19mr21001628pgc.81.1499263369427; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-73-70-190-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.70.190.41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 68sm51566485pfi.69.2017.07.05.07.02.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14F89) In-Reply-To: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:02:47 -0700 Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0F5AA781-C551-4311-BCE3-01A117614FC2@gmail.com> References: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> To: Robert Moskowitz Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:02:52 -0000 Hi Bob Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 5, 2017, at 06:35, Robert Moskowitz wrot= e: >=20 > Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed= in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", no= t "Common Control Plane". See contributors section. >=20 > We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. On= e of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data modelin= g of what is intended to be stored/available. >=20 Agree > Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT= LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with LDA= P as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are ver= y mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools. >=20 > It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap analysis= , and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO is focus n= ow. >=20 > So I propose two work items: >=20 > Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it i= n YANG). > Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP comp= arision. >=20 So we will need some volunteers to work on this Padma > Bob >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Wed Jul 5 07:05:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3D513208D for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:05:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SLnrodugZnyc for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x231.google.com (mail-wr0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5157913208B for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 77so263756786wrb.1 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:05:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2nhDopJVYllRw7IbiDFhPXQlbJtJkUgwpCdgHG6Fmxo=; b=kLOTZFPQYgLO6NbPIOn4Z9+EPJcbCwBZgU9p/6HPOoZSaa0VNjAP1unEKu1iznmrjR bJOwRdanZqcHJiOD9U+Q9RepZAg8E5HNmyh26MCgXZdirR0NOqjCJalE5Nik84iTe8DF 9tq3OLfGYWVgLyXL8Bfam3pFldL4j1VtB+IL+S2fk3wyPBmL7QBSWtCpMpxO5jRue+1i B6Qu/m95MONowxKb8IhZimU4i4GoFDDkolgWBftwAL2jLFxJkCJ0QkQTvxYDlWTVmXqb PZGQOilGSUWNfHyCUk7KM8g4Ruy1tvD95L1498gXjWVilm+/WcPifNfDfRq7pIEaEYUh r0kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2nhDopJVYllRw7IbiDFhPXQlbJtJkUgwpCdgHG6Fmxo=; b=tmM4XthW6rIm0oIj2jZVx/NPr1tGr0I/Fr3vraTQ99Dlurt0o7vgQEU1pn+tvG3CYU h/Cq+p3lXfWY9nZ1LMe0Hgk9zildOdUr9j8FMioRIb95fzJpnlimtBPLiBvVnD5q+2XM h0Qd9G/GMUdKH8SGMGo0kIaza+Zzb/rbN3lkO3HGOWLnzgXmL0C/xynVfMDMqVeKPY+J nGPo25aQOGQ66ULjNNwQVVrikZ0jI+WPv2Mvz5n5f7VzplGWlfXA9nlwvXJ/E1UqrS9r 5JxafEMGTIoYdYCdeH4/mzqVbgrjT4sxqVCJMzJMwtIR8MXHvrFN+ZRTMZKa4NgHZNng oFnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOwXmk6IwEkl7zlMYYmC9Dds0+JSbRSesq6za5eG0olSsX7pSvf9 sViWIwgLCzRyZoDvGPNNF1m75JtC7g== X-Received: by 10.223.151.44 with SMTP id r41mr38399186wrb.6.1499263530832; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:05:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.152 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:05:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> References: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> From: tjw ietf Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:05:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045f576e2e1d4a0553927e7f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:05:35 -0000 --f403045f576e2e1d4a0553927e7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Bob! Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we wanted to hear some of the discussions during the session. And that's what they pay us the big bucks for! But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give some guidance: - work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest larger cycles of time on them. - requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from turning them into published documents as they will change over time - some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has gotten quite mature. tim On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed > in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", > not "Common Control Plane". > > > We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. > One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data > modeling of what is intended to be stored/available. > > Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT > LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with > LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are > very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools. > > It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap > analysis, and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO > is focus now. > > So I propose two work items: > > Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it > in YANG). > Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP > comparision. > > Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --f403045f576e2e1d4a0553927e7f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob!

Brian and I had chatted briefly ab= out charter direction and we wanted to hear some of the discussions during = the session. And that's what they pay us the big bucks for!
<= br>
But I have to agree with your plan of attack.=C2=A0 If we cou= ld give some guidance:=C2=A0

- work on the pro= blem statement and gap analysis but don't invest larger cycles of time = on them. =C2=A0

- requirements are good to capture= , but we will shy away from turning them into published documents as they w= ill change over time

- some discussion on LDAP is = very necessary as the code base has gotten quite mature.

tim

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz <= ;rgm-ietf@htt= -consult.com> wrote:
Discla= imer:=C2=A0 I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed i= n the Ack section.=C2=A0 In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastruc= ture", not "Common Control Plane".


We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata.=C2= =A0 One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data = modeling of what is intended to be stored/available.

Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA?=C2=A0 :) ) on why= NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol.=C2=A0 I star= t with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementati= ons are very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools.=

It is time to start thinking charter.=C2=A0 The problem statement, gap anal= ysis, and use cases is barely a start.=C2=A0 What the group is going to DO = is focus now.

So I propose two work items:

Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in= YANG).
Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP compa= rision.

Bob


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--f403045f576e2e1d4a0553927e7f-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 07:16:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC57129B37 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:16:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7S1qDAS1BvM for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB225131609 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 07:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4610620B9; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:16:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 8eJLwYd0cSqV; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CEEA862067; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:16:08 -0400 (EDT) To: tjw ietf References: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> Cc: ideas@ietf.org From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <1788bf20-2ee5-c2fd-0108-ff4b2b779848@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:16:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C4FD8A562DF2B074A8DBEDC8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:16:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C4FD8A562DF2B074A8DBEDC8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement. I missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. Thanks Padma. I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and distributed data support! (was it actually 20 years ago that I worked on this stuff? yikes!) Bob On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote: > Bob! > > Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we wanted > to hear some of the discussions during the session. And that's what > they pay us the big bucks for! > > But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give some > guidance: > > - work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest > larger cycles of time on them. > > - requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from turning > them into published documents as they will change over time > > - some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has > gotten quite mature. > > tim > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz > > wrote: > > Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not > listed in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common > Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane". > > > We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and > metadata. One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) > needs to be data modeling of what is intended to be stored/available. > > Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on > why NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. > I start with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various > server implementations are very mature with good, secure, backends > and data replication tools. > > It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap > analysis, and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going > to DO is focus now. > > So I propose two work items: > > Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can > do it in YANG). > Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on > LDAP comparision. > > Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --------------C4FD8A562DF2B074A8DBEDC8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim,

Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement. I missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. Thanks Padma.

I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and distributed data support! (was it actually 20 years ago that I worked on this stuff? yikes!)

Bob

On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote:
Bob!

Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we wanted to hear some of the discussions during the session. And that's what they pay us the big bucks for!

But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give some guidance:

- work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest larger cycles of time on them.

- requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from turning them into published documents as they will change over time

- some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has gotten quite mature.

tim

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com> wrote:
Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane".


We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data modeling of what is intended to be stored/available.

Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools.

It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap analysis, and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO is focus now.

So I propose two work items:

Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in YANG).
Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP comparision.

Bob


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas



_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--------------C4FD8A562DF2B074A8DBEDC8-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 08:46:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D7F131D56 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B-IB9ounNfID for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB2B213164D for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id c11so265437854wrc.3 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 08:46:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=9jL567SHn5Qgzp5vIbMGigzhDIIyjHkqi4nre4Z9A4E=; b=dFPnJ9NXSZ7wByp27MLyP3ewKLuym3SIWA38OiyobFQLzHvx9t3nn87C9SSiNchalt 66+PwWshnsPwfN1bc9diSMkJ8xr9x7X436akpglpha7ppO8jxVRhtYaICU51Vgygfwiq ZAfiHWdKoHpf93dq8p6z2TElNXQPbDyKhzW4XfI7KmoEbP7kUUlRGRUZrgc4waTkfHPX OJ/JrS5Eg0/UN3vp+CKmDCFL4Jtz8cZQOl2aTejLqsageniWAxjgbFvdoE8kprMDhJuw nkcrtWvUvhLX4FTmREwCwVmn+SsnyB1ZjTx1yN1Al3bKD6MhD2KjTNu2mYNJ+gn0sxYS eQNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=9jL567SHn5Qgzp5vIbMGigzhDIIyjHkqi4nre4Z9A4E=; b=NUDWTRVu4TSbTOD7w1LfGrWRnLup3RO2nrzKJXKb1HjKcleVyy5Hu7Ws93NSrmbmm7 O/Bf1rin1pOX4U0JfoPAEyz5O5B0tfHQ6tvbx/mM3/7EKbhU11a5SGNxH3YHlT8PZMqZ D0Oky2qWoYotGzeSbYthNzH938UkUYANHKdUYzLCcwbg0KR4R0LvwPbFw3ikfI1kM9Zm WXE97bo03G24WgF67bWAXE4eMVwy2HFRHsmi9qMrJe8H+wq4A9T3dYc43DIVkaKsV0Cx OjR1Fz1K7e7CnZanXgXScKNK9SqqWP2tDHeNtmAkKt1DaOpilUVjK8oOs2dtOJvULQ86 /GCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOwb3vqArj505kk90BtRPYsUNK6KDzGDPqt6aedF6WnXLpOVmEAy 3K07Kccw/Z1J+QexbU14Qk4lXZ8TRA== X-Received: by 10.223.177.129 with SMTP id q1mr39689790wra.82.1499269564297; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 08:46:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.8 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <149911647393.22848.9693360578120873017.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <149911647393.22848.9693360578120873017.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e7c7acd798f055393e511" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement-03.txt X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 15:46:08 -0000 --f403045e7c7acd798f055393e511 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" FYI ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:14 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement-03.txt To: Axel Nennker , Padma Pillay-Esnault < padma.ietf@gmail.com>, Mohamed Boucadair , Giuseppe Fioccola , Christian Jacquenet A new version of I-D, draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Padma Pillay-Esnault and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement Revision: 03 Title: Problem Statement for Identity Enabled Networks Document date: 2017-07-03 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-padma-ideas- problem-statement-03.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-padma-ideas-problem- statement/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-padma-ideas-problem- statement-03 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-padma-ideas- problem-statement-03 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-padma-ideas- problem-statement-03 Abstract: This problem statement examines how existing protocols that separate identifiers from their location may benefit from the concept of identity. The proposal laid out herein advocates for a standardized identity/identifier network infrastructure that provides a framework to support identity services in addition to enhancing existing identifier/location mapping and resolution services. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --f403045e7c7acd798f055393e511 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FYI

--------= -- Forwarded message ----------
From: = <internet= -drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:14 PM
Sub= ject: New Version Notification for draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement-03.t= xt
To: Axel Nennker <axel.= nennker@telekom.de>, Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com= >, Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>, Christian Jacquenet <= christian.jacquenet@orang= e.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Padma Pillay-Esnault and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A003
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Problem Statement for Identity Ena= bled Networks
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-07-03
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 12
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pa= dma-ideas-problem-statement-03.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-padma-ideas-problem= -statement/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement= -03
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement-03
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-padma-id= eas-problem-statement-03

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This problem statement examines how existing protocols that se= parate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identifiers from their location may benefit from the concept o= f
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identity.=C2=A0 The proposal laid out herein advocates for a s= tandardized
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identity/identifier network infrastructure that provides a fra= mework
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to support identity services in addition to enhancing existing=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier/location mapping and resolution services.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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for draft-padma-ideas-req-grids-01.txt Thread-Index: AdL1s6+vStGOhM6WSg+HE9L9z3rZnQ== Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 17:25:36 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0C05B3@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.121] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0C05B3SJCEML702CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.595D2115.011A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.142, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 56a4b9962e308365e2ad6294fb008799 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] FYI: New Version Notification for draft-padma-ideas-req-grids-01.txt X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and 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draft-xyz-ideas-gap-analysis-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHS9EIgyBpdvPvnA0iVzlCe9THmQKJF0aJA Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 22:31:39 +0000 Message-ID: <594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B4F52CE@dfweml501-mbx> References: <149911678911.22832.9296909802984879490.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149911678911.22832.9296909802984879490.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.595D68CF.01B1, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: de6b2abcf35fd73fa07bd61c48d2b6d2 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xyz-ideas-gap-analysis-00.txt X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 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Wed, 5 Jul 2017 15:58:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kcsgtnAuJHez for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 15:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D822129AAD for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 15:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DJV01514; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 22:58:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 23:58:49 +0100 Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.142]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 15:58:43 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Robert Moskowitz , tjw ietf CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" Thread-Index: AQHS9ZPE963S1drr902KkhfKflevlaJFubYAgAAC9gCAABhC4A== Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 22:58:42 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> <1788bf20-2ee5-c2fd-0108-ff4b2b779848@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: <1788bf20-2ee5-c2fd-0108-ff4b2b779848@htt-consult.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.54] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929SJCEML702CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.595D6F2B.0146, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.142, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: a9c7c8d0e79e69d1888db5d6c56bb68a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 22:58:57 -0000 --_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929SJCEML702CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, > I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDA= P'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. > Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control a= nd distributed data support! I am not sure if this would be LDAP or something else. I presume the contex= t is entities authentication and subsequent operations to indicate policy. = Is this correct? If Yes, I have couple of thoughts: 1. We ought to focus on category of entities (low power/regular nodes= /routers) and see what suits best. Perhaps one of the EAP methods suitable = to the environments (minimal RTTs, mutual authentication if needed in some = cases)? 2. Regarding policy - I see your point of "richer policy" but we may = have to start with much more simpler policy (say white list/black list on I= dentifiers) as some of it has to be distributed/shared across without any p= rivacy concerns 3. Regarding distribution of public parts of policy and other informa= tion with Identifiers, we ought to see if we have to use any existing mappi= ng servers (DDT, DHT, Blockchain or some simplified/selective pull based "n= ew" protocol among each providers Identifiers). May be we might have to discuss problems and requirements bit deeper to has= h out the above. -- Uma C. From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:16 AM To: tjw ietf Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infras= tructure" Tim, Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement. I= missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. Thanks P= adma. I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'= . Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and= distributed data support! (was it actually 20 years ago that I worked on = this stuff? yikes!) Bob On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote: Bob! Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we wanted to he= ar some of the discussions during the session. And that's what they pay us = the big bucks for! But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give some guidan= ce: - work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest larger cy= cles of time on them. - requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from turning them = into published documents as they will change over time - some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has gotten qui= te mature. tim On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz > wrote: Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed = in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", no= t "Common Control Plane". We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. One= of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data modelin= g of what is intended to be stored/available. Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT = LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with LDA= P as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are ve= ry mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools. It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap analysis,= and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO is focus n= ow. So I propose two work items: Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in= YANG). Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP compa= rision. Bob _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929SJCEML702CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Bob,

 

> I said 'requirements' to = soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'.  Plus the data mod= el to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

> Of course we could always go with DAP instead f= or richer policy control and distributed data support! 

 

I am not sure if this would be LDAP o= r something else. I presume the context is entities authentication and subs= equent operations to indicate policy. Is this correct?

 

If Yes, I have couple of thoughts:

 

1.   = ;    We ought to focus on category= of entities (low power/regular nodes/routers) and see what suits best. Per= haps one of the EAP methods suitable to the environments (minimal RTTs, mutual authentication if needed in some cases)= ?

2.   = ;    Regarding policy – I se= e your point of “richer policy” but we may have to start with m= uch more simpler policy (say white list/black list on Identifiers) as some of it has to be distributed/shared across without any privacy conc= erns

3.   = ;    Regarding distribution of pub= lic parts of policy and other information with Identifiers, we ought to see= if we have to use any existing mapping servers (DDT, DHT, Blockchain or some simplified/selective pull based “new&#= 8221; protocol among each providers Identifiers).

 

May be we might have to discuss probl= ems and requirements bit deeper to hash out the above.

--

Uma C.<= /span>

 

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:16 AM
To: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "C= ommon Infrastructure"

 

Tim,

Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement.&nb= sp; I missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. = ; Thanks Padma.

I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'= .  Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and= distributed data support!  (was it actually 20 years ago that I worke= d on this stuff? yikes!)

Bob

On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote:

Bob!

 

Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direct= ion and we wanted to hear some of the discussions during the session. And t= hat's what they pay us the big bucks for!

 

But I have to agree with your plan of attack.  = If we could give some guidance: 

 

- work on the problem statement and gap analysis but= don't invest larger cycles of time on them.  

 

- requirements are good to capture, but we will shy = away from turning them into published documents as they will change over ti= me

 

- some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the c= ode base has gotten quite mature.

 

tim

 

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz <= ;rgm-ietf@htt= -consult.com> wrote:

Disclaimer:  I had a hand in edits to this vers= ion, though I am not listed in the Ack section.  In particular I pushe= d for "Common Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane&quo= t;.


We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. = ; One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data mo= deling of what is intended to be stored/available.

Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA?  :) ) on why= NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol.  I star= t with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementati= ons are very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools.

It is time to start thinking charter.  The problem statement, gap anal= ysis, and use cases is barely a start.  What the group is going to DO = is focus now.

So I propose two work items:

Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in= YANG).
Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP compa= rision.

Bob


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 




_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 

--_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929SJCEML702CHMchi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 16:06:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4372E126B6E for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:06:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uPwC-9Q-iVQ1 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D18A0120227 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A1F62161; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:06:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id bqAWpeBM0XXA; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8A0A62171; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:06:13 -0400 (EDT) To: Uma Chunduri , tjw ietf References: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> <1788bf20-2ee5-c2fd-0108-ff4b2b779848@htt-consult.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:06:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------35BEAA23B00EB352D22A3FC2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 23:06:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------35BEAA23B00EB352D22A3FC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Uma, In your list below, DHT is something (that is flat name space) that LDAP does poorly. But LDAP IS a mapping system that has been around for lots of years. And it has authentication in terms of who can add/update and who can inquire on what. And EAP is NOT minimal RTT! It is often yet another wrapper to have some common wrapper. In this case, it would be PANA delivering EAP. So we will discuss this all. Bob On 07/05/2017 06:58 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > > I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT > LDAP'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. > > > Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy > control and distributed data support! > > I am not sure if this would be LDAP or something else. I presume the > context is entities authentication and subsequent operations to > indicate policy. Is this correct? > > If Yes, I have couple of thoughts: > > 1.We ought to focus on category of entities (low power/regular > nodes/routers) and see what suits best. Perhaps one of the EAP methods > suitable to the environments (minimal RTTs, mutual authentication if > needed in some cases)? > > 2.Regarding policy I see your point of richer policy but we may > have to start with much more simpler policy (say white list/black list > on Identifiers) as some of it has to be distributed/shared across > without any privacy concerns > > 3.Regarding distribution of public parts of policy and other > information with Identifiers, we ought to see if we have to use any > existing mapping servers (DDT, DHT, Blockchain or some > simplified/selective pull based new protocol among each providers > Identifiers). > > May be we might have to discuss problems and requirements bit deeper > to hash out the above. > > -- > > Uma C. > > *From:*Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert > Moskowitz > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:16 AM > *To:* tjw ietf > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common > Infrastructure" > > Tim, > > Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem > statement. I missed that in the last go around hours before the draft > cutoff. Thanks Padma. > > I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT > LDAP'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. > > Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy > control and distributed data support! (was it actually 20 years ago > that I worked on this stuff? yikes!) > > Bob > > On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote: > > Bob! > > Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we > wanted to hear some of the discussions during the session. And > that's what they pay us the big bucks for! > > But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give > some guidance: > > - work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest > larger cycles of time on them. > > - requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from > turning them into published documents as they will change over time > > - some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has > gotten quite mature. > > tim > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz > > wrote: > > Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I > am not listed in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for > "Common Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane". > > > We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and > metadata. One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter > item) needs to be data modeling of what is intended to be > stored/available. > > Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) > ) on why NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access > protocol. I start with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and > the various server implementations are very mature with good, > secure, backends and data replication tools. > > It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, > gap analysis, and use cases is barely a start. What the group > is going to DO is focus now. > > So I propose two work items: > > Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me > can do it in YANG). > Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection > on LDAP comparision. > > Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ideas mailing list > > Ideas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --------------35BEAA23B00EB352D22A3FC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Uma,

In your list below, DHT is something (that is flat name space) that LDAP does poorly. But LDAP IS a mapping system that has been around for lots of years.

And it has authentication in terms of who can add/update and who can inquire on what.

And EAP is NOT minimal RTT! It is often yet another wrapper to have some common wrapper. In this case, it would be PANA delivering EAP. So we will discuss this all.

Bob

On 07/05/2017 06:58 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote:

Hi Bob,

> I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

> Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and distributed data support!

I am not sure if this would be LDAP or something else. I presume the context is entities authentication and subsequent operations to indicate policy. Is this correct?

If Yes, I have couple of thoughts:

1. We ought to focus on category of entities (low power/regular nodes/routers) and see what suits best. Perhaps one of the EAP methods suitable to the environments (minimal RTTs, mutual authentication if needed in some cases)?

2. Regarding policy I see your point of richer policy but we may have to start with much more simpler policy (say white list/black list on Identifiers) as some of it has to be distributed/shared across without any privacy concerns

3. Regarding distribution of public parts of policy and other information with Identifiers, we ought to see if we have to use any existing mapping servers (DDT, DHT, Blockchain or some simplified/selective pull based new protocol among each providers Identifiers).

May be we might have to discuss problems and requirements bit deeper to hash out the above.

--

Uma C.

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:16 AM
To: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure"

Tim,

Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement. I missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. Thanks Padma.

I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and distributed data support! (was it actually 20 years ago that I worked on this stuff? yikes!)

Bob

On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote:

Bob!

Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we wanted to hear some of the discussions during the session. And that's what they pay us the big bucks for!

But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give some guidance:

- work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest larger cycles of time on them.

- requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from turning them into published documents as they will change over time

- some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has gotten quite mature.

tim

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com> wrote:

Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane".


We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data modeling of what is intended to be stored/available.

Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools.

It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap analysis, and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO is focus now.

So I propose two work items:

Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in YANG).
Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP comparision.

Bob


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas




_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas



_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--------------35BEAA23B00EB352D22A3FC2-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 16:40:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA71131463 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:40:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZu-5ik0Q-9S for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD98A129AAD for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DJV04830; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 23:40:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 00:40:34 +0100 Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.142]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:40:29 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Robert Moskowitz , tjw ietf CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" Thread-Index: AQHS9ZPE963S1drr902KkhfKflevlaJFubYAgAAC9gCAABhC4IAAe9cA//+RvFA= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 23:40:28 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2956@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <9084360a-160e-944a-96aa-0b33379ccdb8@htt-consult.com> <1788bf20-2ee5-c2fd-0108-ff4b2b779848@htt-consult.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2929@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.54] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2956SJCEML702CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.595D78F4.0073, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.142, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: a9c7c8d0e79e69d1888db5d6c56bb68a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infrastructure" X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 23:40:41 -0000 --_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2956SJCEML702CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, In-line [Uma]: -- Uma C. From: Robert Moskowitz [mailto:rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 4:06 PM To: Uma Chunduri ; tjw ietf Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infras= tructure" Uma, In your list below, DHT is something (that is flat name space) that LDAP do= es poorly. [Uma]: Thx for clarifying that. But flat space or not is completely a diffe= rent discussion.. (and has to be discussed too) But LDAP IS a mapping system that has been around for lots of years. And it has authentication in terms of who can add/update and who can inquir= e on what. And EAP is NOT minimal RTT! [Uma]: You are right of course. We may not need minimal RTT in some cases = and mutual AUTH (can be debatable). I see, 40+ EAP methods give the spectr= um of all choices. It is often yet another wrapper to have some common wrapper. In this case,= it would be PANA delivering EAP. [Uma]: Indeed, some lower layer is required to carry EAP. As PS talks about= we need a private channel for AUTH and policy updates. So we will discuss this all. [Uma]: Yes, we need to discuss a bit on this. Bob On 07/05/2017 06:58 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote: Hi Bob, > I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDA= P'. Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. > Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control a= nd distributed data support! I am not sure if this would be LDAP or something else. I presume the contex= t is entities authentication and subsequent operations to indicate policy. = Is this correct? If Yes, I have couple of thoughts: 1. We ought to focus on category of entities (low power/regular nodes/= routers) and see what suits best. Perhaps one of the EAP methods suitable t= o the environments (minimal RTTs, mutual authentication if needed in some c= ases)? 2. Regarding policy - I see your point of "richer policy" but we may h= ave to start with much more simpler policy (say white list/black list on Id= entifiers) as some of it has to be distributed/shared across without any pr= ivacy concerns 3. Regarding distribution of public parts of policy and other informat= ion with Identifiers, we ought to see if we have to use any existing mappin= g servers (DDT, DHT, Blockchain or some simplified/selective pull based "ne= w" protocol among each providers Identifiers). May be we might have to discuss problems and requirements bit deeper to has= h out the above. -- Uma C. From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:16 AM To: tjw ietf Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "Common Infras= tructure" Tim, Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement. I= missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. Thanks P= adma. I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'= . Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema. Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and= distributed data support! (was it actually 20 years ago that I worked on = this stuff? yikes!) Bob On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote: Bob! Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direction and we wanted to he= ar some of the discussions during the session. And that's what they pay us = the big bucks for! But I have to agree with your plan of attack. If we could give some guidan= ce: - work on the problem statement and gap analysis but don't invest larger cy= cles of time on them. - requirements are good to capture, but we will shy away from turning them = into published documents as they will change over time - some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the code base has gotten qui= te mature. tim On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz > wrote: Disclaimer: I had a hand in edits to this version, though I am not listed = in the Ack section. In particular I pushed for "Common Infrastructure", no= t "Common Control Plane". We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. One= of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data modelin= g of what is intended to be stored/available. Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA? :) ) on why NOT = LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol. I start with LDA= P as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementations are ve= ry mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools. It is time to start thinking charter. The problem statement, gap analysis,= and use cases is barely a start. What the group is going to DO is focus n= ow. So I propose two work items: Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in= YANG). Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP compa= rision. Bob _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2956SJCEML702CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bob,=

 

In-line [Uma]:

 

--

Uma C.<= /span>

 

From: Robert Moskowitz [mailto:rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 4:06 PM
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>; tjw ietf <tjw.i= etf@gmail.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "C= ommon Infrastructure"

 

Uma,

In your list below, DHT is something (that is flat name space) that LDAP do= es poorly.

[Uma]:= Thx for clarifying that. But flat space or not is completely a different d= iscussion.. (and has to be discussed too)

  But LDAP IS a = mapping system that has been around for lots of years.

And it has authentica= tion in terms of who can add/update and who can inquire on what.

And EAP is NOT minima= l RTT! 

[Uma]:=  You are right of course. We may not need minimal RTT in some cases a= nd mutual AUTH (can be debatable). I see,  40+ EAP methods give the spectrum of all choices.

It is often yet anoth= er wrapper to have some common wrapper.  In this case, it would be PAN= A delivering EAP. 

[Uma]:= Indeed, some lower layer is required to carry EAP. As PS talks about we ne= ed a private channel for AUTH and policy updates.

So we will discuss th= is all.

[Uma]:= Yes, we need to discuss a bit on this.



Bob

On 07/05/2017 06:58 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote:

Hi Bob,

 

> I said 'requirements' to = soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'.  Plus the data mod= el to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

> Of course we could always go with DAP instead f= or richer policy control and distributed data support! 

 

I am not sure if this would be LDAP o= r something else. I presume the context is entities authentication and subs= equent operations to indicate policy. Is this correct?

 

If Yes, I have couple of thoughts:

 

1.      We ought to focus on category of ent= ities (low power/regular nodes/routers) and see what suits best. Perhaps on= e of the EAP methods suitable to the environments (minimal RTTs, mutual authentication if needed in some cases)?=

2.      Regarding policy – I see your = point of “richer policy” but we may have to start with much mor= e simpler policy (say white list/black list on Identifiers) as some of it has to be distributed/shared across without any privacy concern= s

3.      Regarding distribution of public par= ts of policy and other information with Identifiers, we ought to see if we = have to use any existing mapping servers (DDT, DHT, Blockchain or some simplified/selective pull based “new” = protocol among each providers Identifiers).

 

May be we might have to discuss probl= ems and requirements bit deeper to hash out the above.

--

Uma C.

 

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:16 AM
To: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmai= l.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] draft-padma-ideas-problem-statement and "C= ommon Infrastructure"

 

Tim,

Well it seems I got an upgrade to contributing to the problem statement.&nb= sp; I missed that in the last go around hours before the draft cutoff. = ; Thanks Padma.

I said 'requirements' to soften the blow, so to speak, about 'why NOT LDAP'= .  Plus the data model to see if it can fit into an LDAP schema.

Of course we could always go with DAP instead for richer policy control and= distributed data support!  (was it actually 20 years ago that I worke= d on this stuff? yikes!)

Bob

On 07/05/2017 10:05 AM, tjw ietf wrote:


Bob!

 

Brian and I had chatted briefly about charter direct= ion and we wanted to hear some of the discussions during the session. And t= hat's what they pay us the big bucks for!

 

But I have to agree with your plan of attack.  = If we could give some guidance: 

 

- work on the problem statement and gap analysis but= don't invest larger cycles of time on them.  

 

- requirements are good to capture, but we will shy = away from turning them into published documents as they will change over ti= me

 

- some discussion on LDAP is very necessary as the c= ode base has gotten quite mature.

 

tim

 

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Robert Moskowitz <= ;rgm-ietf@htt= -consult.com> wrote:

Disclaimer:  I had a hand in edits to this vers= ion, though I am not listed in the Ack section.  In particular I pushe= d for "Common Infrastructure", not "Common Control Plane&quo= t;.


We have been talking a lot about Identity and Identifier and metadata. = ; One of the tasks of this workgroup (and charter item) needs to be data mo= deling of what is intended to be stored/available.

Further there needs to be Yet Another Gap Analysis (YAGA?  :) ) on why= NOT LDAP or some other mature xyz data store access protocol.  I star= t with LDAP as there is actually a fit, and the various server implementati= ons are very mature with good, secure, backends and data replication tools.

It is time to start thinking charter.  The problem statement, gap anal= ysis, and use cases is barely a start.  What the group is going to DO = is focus now.

So I propose two work items:

Common Infrastructure data modeling (and someone other than me can do it in= YANG).
Common Infrastructure protocol requirements with a subsection on LDAP compa= rision.

Bob


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 





_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 




_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 

--_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854019E2956SJCEML702CHMchi_-- From nobody Sun Jul 16 06:34:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048AF128DE5; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 06:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9EkHVha8RcTB; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 06:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F03A1200FC; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 06:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 62so55325512wmw.1; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 06:34:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ymgO2wRdm1P5qM9wIStW83Vpw5Vo9UeUtD1pD8o9Zec=; b=aqsLlQ2xOeoztxmc2kmRBpMNtztJkXBJTNv9n6ynSxG+5o+n26g6cia7qEgsGVrLn1 ziepFu7eTw/eFeVLhjTxCQFYZzH7Rt58j/4WJniW4Kd3TSI1LlgYfT4uYYalgC1Pjxp8 VnXocOxDyWOSa0P3KGy7+1Isx/mmHrDOWnvrCyQHDHm95QogJ6Zh5NDyI+rZ9NDjje5I sJrAsGTwc0NCEbWfGOWSgcWsc1ZHuvemkQXmSO+redvzeVEGXsLQC5wsJ5m46OXarv4S zPbZUXHaLPdDe+F34pTS4lMT/UkNlOYxLkzCGeTLR7jLyMpdW5Ggq3UynBHqAr4MdMO9 Ku4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ymgO2wRdm1P5qM9wIStW83Vpw5Vo9UeUtD1pD8o9Zec=; b=j2+WKLrVr8Y/FUPzp9QvQ1Frv1ORLmedtTYps2BbrdHeHiY7ZWT6pbU0zyFEsETUPJ ZYj6z+Sj6rG8KsFitO0c0yf+9b/3twbVaYZAOEzFy/JzcGC0YOnnMk3Bdg4v/OlAyv+3 JjUJq0LRt3m8iOw1FIUVsklDTK5Gq5CowdTXy0I8hc8kC7kLoe9H/Buvi3ekt9gQvloy 2NNkNB5XQ2rcdGv2en0ZH2m+3lLBYZYFUYP8marrGAapzTxVZ55C92lLhDmKc9iPHjuO NJikYqoArvCFQg+u4JEwMlLu9u/NNy0Se1bvLPHrJiQCGM70WWrAVq+E0rzJcL0IvXHN szyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110pcuzeSuY1NSCMbcdjDuxMtGmmTF+Vy5qXZOl+akYylZoe1iN0 6h8NEx3+M+G2nYh6ExAJ5klxmbEagA== X-Received: by 10.28.153.81 with SMTP id b78mr1444830wme.85.1500212088695; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 06:34:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.152.139 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 06:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: tjw ietf Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 09:34:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Cc: ideas-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b2f38a2737105546f5814" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Need Minute takes and jabber scribe X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:34:52 -0000 --001a114b2f38a2737105546f5814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi We will need minute takers and a jabber scribe for the BoF on Wednesday. Since there will be a free flowing conversation at the end, perhaps 2 minute takers would be great. Drop the chairs a note if you can help. thanks tim --001a114b2f38a2737105546f5814 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

We will need minute t= akers and a jabber scribe for the BoF on Wednesday.=C2=A0 Since there will = be a free flowing conversation at the end, perhaps 2 minute takers would be= great.=C2=A0

Drop the chairs a note if you can he= lp.

thanks

tim
=
--001a114b2f38a2737105546f5814-- From nobody Sun Jul 16 07:42:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DBE127342; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JkOYB8Kdg5Fs; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 07:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C8B61200C1; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 07:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0BC58C4B6; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 16:41:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id F2642B0C5C1; Sun, 16 Jul 2017 16:41:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 16:41:51 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: ideas-chairs@ietf.org Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Uma Chunduri , ideas@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170716144151.GE3889@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Need Minute takes and jabber scribe X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:41:59 -0000 I volunteer as minute taker. On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 03:57:46PM +0200, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > FYI > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: tjw ietf > Date: Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 3:34 PM > Subject: [Ideas] Need Minute takes and jabber scribe > To: ideas@ietf.org > Cc: ideas-chairs@ietf.org > > > > Hi > > We will need minute takers and a jabber scribe for the BoF on Wednesday. > Since there will be a free flowing conversation at the end, perhaps 2 > minute takers would be great. > > Drop the chairs a note if you can help. > > thanks > > tim > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Mon Jul 17 02:32:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA21129468; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:32:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YmM5vjPIYDqC; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40C30127337; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id q4so28284004oif.1; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:32:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=i8myX8c0nHlblby/mN/lOV1f/OWRh3uqfIKo956bYOg=; b=P4HoDQ51pmXlDROUBv2kWl1C8gfH1E99/BoHQezfvThP/Q1QDA8hw4p6+DMxHP3cTB wc1XH5SK8nM9e4IlLZBPSj574df1dfXELwB3xEnEO9i9KjaLZDyiEzxZVOnIvDwQ3j0j u6LQphb47YANNSQvp+jUBv3qysGPGJf7AQZe5/UcHus+eeSNkQDo46V6UKMWiDwVrBZC S92kX+qUaxbP/xiJmatCkKAihztk+D6QtPZAocyxst9kNI6MAyFvAL6i6CL21+eWKc0X tg9ulNYpLPYrjoyIJmErinp4h1Qqwrh7FRln8Ab0xe/z6eZZ8IWI8Ll2TeSIhBu48mwX iBVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=i8myX8c0nHlblby/mN/lOV1f/OWRh3uqfIKo956bYOg=; b=jxLkSEhSzyfRFxtibdAGnVHPknYUu5zcIJxQ5rUPeNLakD9KPEvu4eFvZqaTfyMfNm dkrmRLzBMZW+oaVNeLeYWFDQCf3kqY6MuJuSuXw6EARR7Zbmms85pX6EmKqUItsycAsN lwTQ3xpSIZ033bDIE8RBjHZeQYaDjQoE7dTlWq3060WqEpd1J5gzB1tfyWPZmw3NMEj2 4dg7H9Efh+GO1S4U/8M4mfmOoR23E8nFENXHk25vKEMCt3kx3gwqWdEbE6yLooPGv/VB v3SumeACnCgYhVVERMyVsdIuNtulxr4ve8JtL04v62G7sMqz/89rSyYBO11lskfkc5ki gleQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111/6HbTFnJMOddaor5/mts9j1PMILzmn0fPQEedBmBqUuylEYf+ e8mVBfkdYXpEYyZh+AS103w1WF4l7A== X-Received: by 10.202.222.139 with SMTP id v133mr11886351oig.42.1500283936567; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:32:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.27.4 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:31:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170716144151.GE3889@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20170716144151.GE3889@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Amreesh Phokeer Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:31:36 +0200 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: ideas-chairs@ietf.org, Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org, Uma Chunduri Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d625019f8bc05548013ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Need Minute takes and jabber scribe X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:32:19 -0000 --001a113d625019f8bc05548013ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, I also volunteer. Regards, Amreesh On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > I volunteer as minute taker. > > On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 03:57:46PM +0200, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > > FYI > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: tjw ietf > > Date: Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 3:34 PM > > Subject: [Ideas] Need Minute takes and jabber scribe > > To: ideas@ietf.org > > Cc: ideas-chairs@ietf.org > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > We will need minute takers and a jabber scribe for the BoF on Wednesday. > > Since there will be a free flowing conversation at the end, perhaps 2 > > minute takers would be great. > > > > Drop the chairs a note if you can help. > > > > thanks > > > > tim > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ideas mailing list > > Ideas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Amreesh Phokeer --001a113d625019f8bc05548013ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

I also volunteer.
Regards,
Amreesh

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Toerless = Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
= I volunteer as minute taker.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 03:57:46PM +0200, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote:
> FYI
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmai= l.com>
> Date: Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 3:34 PM
> Subject: [Ideas] Need Minute takes and jabber scribe
> To: ideas@ietf.org
> Cc: ideas-chairs@ietf.org=
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> We will need minute takers and a jabber scribe for the BoF on Wednesda= y.
> Since there will be a free flowing conversation at the end, perhaps 2<= br> > minute takers would be great.
>
> Drop the chairs a note if you can help.
>
> thanks
>
> tim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas=

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas



--
Amreesh Phokeer
=
--001a113d625019f8bc05548013ae-- From nobody Tue Jul 18 02:52:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F389D131DD1 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tQtHzTo5XvA2 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DBA9126E3A for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DKT60443; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:52:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.144) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 10:51:48 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.184]) by dggemi406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.144]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 17:51:39 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A BnB Demo on Generic Identity Service (Proof of Concept) Thread-Index: AdL/qw6XprWZla9tT1SwPOQGvoTEcQ== Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:51:39 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.70.33] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A16776DGGEMI506MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.596DDA68.00A4, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: f412340250aa95fd689875c2eae3cd25 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] A BnB Demo on Generic Identity Service (Proof of Concept) X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:52:44 -0000 --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A16776DGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, We'd like to have your attention on the Bits-N-Bites, where we will showcas= e a preliminary proof-of-concept on Generic Identity Service (GRIDS). We wi= ll demo the following use cases: * Identity-based access control policies and metadata * Mobility * Interworking with ID/LOC protocols: LISP and HIP You can find the full description at http://ietf.org/meeting/99/bits-n-bite= s.html Be sure to check it out! Best, Bingyang Liu (for the team) --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A16776DGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

We’d like to have your at= tention on the Bits-N-Bites, where we will showcase a preliminary proof-of-= concept on Generic Identity Service (GRIDS). We will demo the following use= cases:

• Identity-based access control policies and metadata=

• Mobility

• Interworking with ID/LOC protocols: LISP and HIP

 

You can find the full descripti= on at http://ietf.org/meeting/99/bits-n-bites.html Be sure to check it out! <= o:p>

 

Best,

Bingyang Liu (for the team)

--_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A16776DGGEMI506MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 19 08:11:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C475F131D9F for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:11:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.688 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fUUOprxWevZI for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73F2013192B for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id w126so1794223wme.0 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f8JCmUwlfB+0CJ81lWOTKvrIsFLmCFqkzybztnMpbp0=; b=HqCDnDVwSVC9ZPI/UCYWLBb5iZJC2V3KwdjuaSkfA6p46dP3qXDCIik6rZhKylYGY3 1YorsI8lfgDj0IOdj1Jbj6pazKqff/l3HDHgaTLZ9VJJgRmSVv65/V8IjXHtBKH5ls4w GkuFQUrdMaZMLu8i36ARD9b7m1dPSTPhpKkRzcdzl0R6sjuR2f2A+C7q2PU7XuGAMACC 8aWI57UBLe7naxvDtA/+SVU38u3Myim9ofLyODMoRsattpMIHqJQ8+gRYnD/c5O7U4pq VIHqqQ1SASZy2xFaFAhmfuXUt9UDRgcMT0hIK/pQexAdIf0bmOWDyEnV6kzpAC7YbOka 1yzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f8JCmUwlfB+0CJ81lWOTKvrIsFLmCFqkzybztnMpbp0=; b=OxiO7FdPmQqAXkGnqxGGGMZsYbFc76CshBECqApgbZghEt8/a/svA8dHZ8OBlYNVUJ jYi98e6evCtTjzW5qGh57TW6GNb8cpVfEDKr9xSdHAj1p9pmnQi0V+D/cRQoFvPRVxT8 7qC7Hmsz3F1Zp7Nlytdir0Dfprstap/SunIdxylIlC61zJpSLG/TsG4AqIiUcp6oMFpQ Ib4jyGRoby26ggtmHEAD0FZDfVxKnJcxhdBk0TJlWlrRDv7KQkCKiAHP4ptCrx5WOOvc ltGEGZsflMt7ijWLzGjHZiUil9F1hfC4KtpskPJCaKRWFjYUgFJ148UbJf7Vzo76tD6f VB/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1125LV3mrCwaQaycKmdabmsL0JuFtU3WO6/jjliLAquXrEcQB9xG 6b8D0Qr+U2JDLjLcQrCa4e7nCpgo8A== X-Received: by 10.28.147.200 with SMTP id v191mr213422wmd.95.1500477063801; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.8 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:11:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="001a114714b06349d60554ad0afa" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Fwd: Slides and Charter X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 15:11:08 -0000 --001a114714b06349d60554ad0afa Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114714b06349d20554ad0af8" --001a114714b06349d20554ad0af8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Everyone Here is the charter version that was finalized before the BOF. We would like to have your feedback on it. Thanks Padma and IDEAS Design team ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Slides and Charter To: tjw ietf , Brian Haberman Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault Hello Here is the updated slide deck and charter. Your comments welcome! Thanks Padma --001a114714b06349d20554ad0af8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone=C2=A0

Here is the charte= r version that was finalized before the BOF.=C2=A0

We would like to have your feedback on it.=C2=A0

= Thanks
Padma and IDEAS Design team=C2=A0

<= br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Fr= om: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com><= /span>
Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Slides and Ch= arter
To: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gm= ail.com>, Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>


=
Hello

Here is the updated slide deck an= d charter.
Your comments welcome!

Thanks=
Padma

<= /div>
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP////////////// /wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAD+//// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AQD+/wMKAAD/ ////BgkCAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARiAAAABNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCA5Ny0yMDAzIERvY3VtZW50AAoA AABNU1dvcmREb2MAEAAAAFdvcmQuRG9jdW1lbnQuOAD0ObJxAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --001a114714b06349d60554ad0afa-- From nobody Wed Jul 19 09:14:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8F512F3CB for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ukUZwZaDQd1 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3FCE1287A5 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id w126so3370539wme.0 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:14:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tqMF7Uexcdo80ugm7xwOyuUj5B1mTqrGNl6LPxoWL8Y=; b=jIl28bJgjjCAUcw2HkOQIBQk/5dckqL4//EOZevB22TaAlKsimWDRb8crRI7ZSGksn BDICpr4ovCY45QHkJdyIWO6y6AUn4wA51LqqwhG6FIQFV/TyO7o7WlW6PoEV1NoErDai x2hBtSZeGiiwmQaQjMEJ2mAQSsWxXWCPhYoyeYzUQy/XP2m+y1snMlh/o6vMiRVAw03X tONf3mg7P2lzTWMxL0vgT2bKbvHW012+UOVdTukADYj/scugZIOEV3kELyNvCLZjDlFs yEMuHqimEclasJT5fyc0UCol6h/xh2Xvy/KVqQw6PAGRaCC1+c0Xxld7TF4GrORUEZEe 4d9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tqMF7Uexcdo80ugm7xwOyuUj5B1mTqrGNl6LPxoWL8Y=; b=UInFmiMymM3SdUQj9qycOk6ATF8tjka7Em8x5Eu3w+c/FdNveyORTAGnIwpUp0D9tn vZQ+IajUfagbTFc2Wh/2fLQtQ49omrKvVUEWHyV/ee47Tw8rMjvZzk/RCTmQoiGq0eOY RFKibDorOJH+JfLQvxBabdWaOC402lIWdLqq1SlmUzHh1461bB206qx2uhbhYBzlXEEw zIkotZ5fFSAFdwq2g6xyDF2G5W02bd1r52KtHkrxGvUPC4fUXtw86rIiGW7j0C9AtSl7 sUnEw+Diju3Mk63UGraQZC+NXvobYiJ7zJGYBY6Ts5GRDPM2SQc6NsA36AFMcRoULWhq D6LQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110Pjg0HQq38MbuU85XhkcQ6M4v0OA9fGmGIr5TORee2aZHhlmVR SFRcqLPUg1uhpmIEfX2YTPwQiC1uig== X-Received: by 10.28.234.145 with SMTP id g17mr377437wmi.144.1500480842496; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:14:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.152.139 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:14:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: tjw ietf Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:14:02 +0200 Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114705109c00fd0554adebf6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Slides and Charter X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:14:05 -0000 --001a114705109c00fd0554adebf6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All I updated the github repo that Padma pointed me to - that may be a better place for folks to wordsmith https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Hello Everyone > > Here is the charter version that was finalized before the BOF. > > We would like to have your feedback on it. > > Thanks > Padma and IDEAS Design team > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Padma Pillay-Esnault > Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM > Subject: Re: Slides and Charter > To: tjw ietf , Brian Haberman < > brian@innovationslab.net> > Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > Hello > > Here is the updated slide deck and charter. > Your comments welcome! > > Thanks > Padma > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a114705109c00fd0554adebf6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All

I updated the github repo that Padm= a pointed me to - that may be a better place for folks to wordsmith=C2=A0



On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault <padm= a.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everyone=C2=A0

Here is the charter = version that was finalized before the BOF.=C2=A0

W= e would like to have your feedback on it.=C2=A0

Th= anks
Padma and IDEAS Design team=C2=A0
<= br>

---------- Forwarded message -= ---------
From: Padma Pillay-Esnault <= span dir=3D"ltr"><padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:08= PM
Subject: Re: Slides and Charter
To: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>, Brian H= aberman <b= rian@innovationslab.net>
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>=


Hello

Here is the updated s= lide deck and charter.
Your comments welcome!

Thanks
Padma

<= /div>

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a114705109c00fd0554adebf6-- From nobody Wed Jul 19 22:51:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE16E124D85 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:51:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Alpn0nxhjRue for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03F3F124217 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f21so9675625wrf.5 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:51:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ChDWOUqkyxMcBz8p1DSkpQuug2TiLNCzAiZuvMPHkO0=; b=HrozzrIAQzrZZ9etMkqxsPvxt7ta5O419ehmGGWuXGCIgpRtNZlOWiQv0nH07wN35s GP2kk1xCx++0AOQuUv2tpu/MSbTwcTW0XXaTMAyVWIIB4YTdTlvf1+9uduQe7vFrG2/L P49sGzAd5nXfS9obc+thWDIN+vY7uud3B2UBJ/9B+pkLb0IwNdS0rJJR9+NgIGW+K9Lb 9dWF9KNuDg1wkumxYaDssYfnshIN4kBd9ZgeQcX5wof6/Zc2wRJ9lbzDToEV8aUIyaEH M0lj/eiCzGACvwVeL3xzP2crYSEiszeq2i/nA4mtfFefzctU9896OlYdwtCf68e7oc4R BPBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ChDWOUqkyxMcBz8p1DSkpQuug2TiLNCzAiZuvMPHkO0=; b=kYf/8GRj5lhKjfJXYxqtljB3R1kchcalXJh0pR7odOJuduzfMUlH//145c6dLzDEeX 1HdjWLLntg4Xk9o6EyPxIOcx6LZm6nlFetsbF1sMYaa3c9pwnUrZ/M53comRG6I4qNHe Fo/MY3fwwnCubVq670b+GQUK7giVikgx74QDcdpMonWf4+5GVQbLZYOPazD/cKlyjolP 4eeieZ7mFxN7azqru1wjHaeR+vkeQQoj/IOHTicOlLzjRBCCk/QEOS6vCKhBzjtPNkMc c2snaM5OaGBhylCLm97J3rUhYNHTJzVXQl17o/8lfZjcnnIkIs5idGlZZOYfWTcFu7+x 3Obw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110a9Yxl0VFjZLT5hXlBeT9riHceR26GcxsTcVgT8OzBVcJhn4HD LcIRbkGy8+m/nNU3dEM5X0S6nBYjHA== X-Received: by 10.223.135.181 with SMTP id b50mr2440272wrb.261.1500529863481; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:51:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.8 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:51:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:51:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: tjw ietf Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114748027ce2630554b95524" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Slides and Charter X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:51:07 -0000 --001a114748027ce2630554b95524 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Tim! If anyone need access please drop me a line Thanks Padma On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:14 PM, tjw ietf wrote: > All > > I updated the github repo that Padma pointed me to - that may be a better > place for folks to wordsmith > > https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal > > > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault < > padma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello Everyone >> >> Here is the charter version that was finalized before the BOF. >> >> We would like to have your feedback on it. >> >> Thanks >> Padma and IDEAS Design team >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault >> Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM >> Subject: Re: Slides and Charter >> To: tjw ietf , Brian Haberman < >> brian@innovationslab.net> >> Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault >> >> >> Hello >> >> Here is the updated slide deck and charter. >> Your comments welcome! >> >> Thanks >> Padma >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> >> > --001a114748027ce2630554b95524 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Tim!

If anyone need access pleas= e drop me a line=C2=A0

Thanks
Padma=C2= =A0

On= Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:14 PM, tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
All

I updated the github repo that Padma pointed me to - that may be a = better place for folks to wordsmith=C2=A0


=


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Padma Pillay-Es= nault <padma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Eve= ryone=C2=A0

Here is the charter version that was finaliz= ed before the BOF.=C2=A0

We would like to have you= r feedback on it.=C2=A0

Thanks
Padma and= IDEAS Design team=C2=A0


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Slides and Char= ter
To: tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>, Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
= Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>


Hello<= div>
Here is the updated slide deck and charter.
Yo= ur comments welcome!

Thanks
Padma

<= /div>

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas



--001a114748027ce2630554b95524-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 00:35:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9018C126CD6 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:35:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rLx09XS2jL7E for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37C8812ECCB for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.137.43] (dhcp-892b.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v6K7ZOgX017855 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:35:26 -0700 To: ideas@ietf.org From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:35:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVYPFGgtZgBVTyQJqF+kNSi9h3DkeM6vgqzvh1JS5rWjyMdCnm2abAmA515vE6BOywG2+NhgH0+S0Q006RszP3ci X-Sonic-ID: C;ZAYy/h1t5xGjgvsKk0eh0A== M;Vi2Q/x1t5xGjgvsKk0eh0A== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:35:30 -0000 I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear identifiers. But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means that the transport sessions would break. Seems like a tricky tradeoff. What are the thoughts in this area? Thanks, Erik From nobody Thu Jul 20 01:04:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FD1129562 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:04:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nw_uCHALzsCs for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C61E126B72 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DRP25443; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:04:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.177) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:04:47 +0100 Received: from DFWEML501-MBB.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.179]) by DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.177]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:04:42 -0700 From: Yingzhen Qu To: Erik Nordmark , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity Thread-Index: AQHTASrPl62Mp/1wpkeSqPEEd0TQ+KJcVszA Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:04:41 +0000 Message-ID: <594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B51F3D8@dfweml501-mbb> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.247.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.59706421.001B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 9afd507c2267693d18d03a33458f99a2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:04:53 -0000 Hi Erik, I may not get your question right, but let me give it a try. Yes, identifiers are used on data plane for the transport connection, but a= n identifier used in one tcp session is not going to change during the sess= ion. If you're asking about initiating a session using a new identifier, it's di= fferent based on whether it's the sender or the receiver using a new identi= fier. But the bottom line is an entity will query the mapping system about = the idf/loc information, and since the MS has the info of identity and iden= tifiers mappings it can make the right resolution. The exact control messag= es needed will be defined by the WG later. Thanks, Yingzhen -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Nordmark Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:35 AM To: ideas@ietf.org Subject: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a longer-live= d identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear identifiers. But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection identificat= ion, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means that the tr= ansport sessions would break. Seems like a tricky tradeoff. What are the thoughts in this area? Thanks, Erik _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 20 01:37:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D291A13157A for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oq5D3FnnVikC for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1D23129B7F for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DKX11556; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:37:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:36:59 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:36:49 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Yingzhen Qu , Erik Nordmark , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity Thread-Index: AQHTASrQA8hT40Pa70+th+iH95tXXqJc0LCA//+PqrA= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:36:48 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A31635@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B51F3D8@dfweml501-mbb> In-Reply-To: <594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B51F3D8@dfweml501-mbb> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.77.24] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.59706BCA.004C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 50d608f62ee62fccf5ec10041abf919e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:37:34 -0000 Hi Erik, > But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection identific= ation, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means that the = transport sessions would break. I second below response. 2 quick things: 1. If an entity intends to use ephemeral identifiers in the data plane for = any reason (including for anonymity for outside observers), the frequency o= f use (one or more sessions) can be determined either by entity or through = MS. =20 I don't see why during a session it has to be changed, especially as it w= ill break the session as you suggested. 2. IDEAS doesn't intend to provide any mechanism how anonymous Identifiers = can be defined in a particular protocol. For example LISP has a mechanism f= or EID anonymity "draft-farinacci-lisp-eid-anonymity-02". However IDEAS can provide simple policy at GRIDS and can provide mecha= nisms how sender/receiver can wish to anonymize (for example frequency) the= ir communication, if needed. -- Uma C. -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Yingzhen Qu Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:05 AM To: Erik Nordmark ; ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity Hi Erik, I may not get your question right, but let me give it a try. Yes, identifiers are used on data plane for the transport connection, but a= n identifier used in one tcp session is not going to change during the sess= ion. If you're asking about initiating a session using a new identifier, it's di= fferent based on whether it's the sender or the receiver using a new identi= fier. But the bottom line is an entity will query the mapping system about = the idf/loc information, and since the MS has the info of identity and iden= tifiers mappings it can make the right resolution. The exact control messag= es needed will be defined by the WG later. Thanks, Yingzhen -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Nordmark Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:35 AM To: ideas@ietf.org Subject: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a longer-live= d identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear identifiers. But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection identificat= ion, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means that the tr= ansport sessions would break. Seems like a tricky tradeoff. What are the thoughts in this area? Thanks, Erik _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 20 01:51:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A4713157A for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83i9xlFd9ZTy for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x233.google.com (mail-wr0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D8A8126B72 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x233.google.com with SMTP id k71so14360386wrc.2 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=HSn01Rczoc8uc6wXbRkcdRB3ry0qi53Sn4f2HaRkdUs=; b=CY6cxaQz+GjHzREv/dI2e/8kljzY76DAmQR2bg0uWTgzcmE71TNu136txpygs8UGK8 fl8ndgRcQMaounHXTxMnIhJ506PZEw8xW672BiwiZgpoXjO+wJKrQaWt4JtUWggzBB6j cUwctDMcJfImXed+9jLJqPwVu7+p+Ma1zA0sWb7PCremRDrsOIiVqwn9mvC6xQwH2p/n 7m/MKYKnzIDm3F041/86XdA2N/qiMIG6XW8OCEmN6b2dsaiBOxGPnUDEM3UX6cpSm5Sm e0urPW5Ckpym6zCSxn/l5v6ujBe1HFLG2SV+fdvvSDfj6Ok2rr9S0rVKqtL3YL6yGXMT aT6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=HSn01Rczoc8uc6wXbRkcdRB3ry0qi53Sn4f2HaRkdUs=; b=tyML1cCY2+uce3G04ZFQ9igeCn5qsOuw8kNh99xWYZ7sywIcVXU8sOv8yZ4UEne4JJ 5Rxjxnb9UuW4GNsWrXfWv+qpZqUaFK3IMdmr2EJKvZWZiEpWs2HZJompd+rVKqmF1Z5L xrrIW5MvVUsFm3r9e4KANQmwZDQQYuvFpJPyKssIvJATs6HLpA8oJ2YXzA0HrCdJxUex LD6Qu0BNQsdQmF/NX/61S9ZjSzIHD0gZ8OCiPtYL6jANXZg0MXbZVZWfg+MsLc2cNl/3 kNq012n0Bm8+XnM/gBgyq1pC8qtppxWkeqTOtkVylex0YW08KCnCSroR2LCvL9vE8QpT EwVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110ZK3QT6R7felTdXhUVWDAEXIujKYLfJyQUQGXEKOL1vZYSSokM tQBxoLYQexfgbg== X-Received: by 10.223.183.40 with SMTP id l40mr6586736wre.154.1500540655047; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:ed58:c3ea:de7e:8f3f? ([2001:67c:1232:144:ed58:c3ea:de7e:8f3f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p13sm2241051wma.8.2017.07.20.01.50.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:50:55 -0700 Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> To: Erik Nordmark X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:50:58 -0000 > I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a = longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear = identifiers. >=20 > But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection = identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way = means that the transport sessions would break. >=20 > Seems like a tricky tradeoff. I believe we can have it both ways.=20 If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport = connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs = stay assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the = encapsulated packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You can = get privacy either way. Also note, in LISP, one can use ephemeral-EIDs and still get = crypto-based authentication using a crypto-EID for the sole purpose of = sending Map-Registers and Map-Requests and not for transport = connections. Dino From nobody Thu Jul 20 02:14:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23A712FB9C for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yNBTZf1w5VlN for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 346DC126B72 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w126so18878241wme.0 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=ak7bV1/xkG/YvIA0dU2zMpiNE7fNYfX+D8+FZ89gy34=; b=LtcZCEhfDWImzHniQ90bEZr8Q09+Z6L8AgP8w1v88fDJPk8am/HfCPP2f9BOtAdBqb JCtlFIu1MTLZ1wRn0IzbfceHbBpqbiaoNfW5nVLtgxiRvLNP8lBFbPr2paoyVqQHY0/4 DekMzqUQ0uhVWnQD3GhhQjLz2L+jAfzgC8tniN6/6pay3VHP6x7K62ECQYnyb0Cq2ljT Rmsn8aOvJXhQ9HX8N05ZVHCYgEhmTyGzqGlHyBmmHO/yKC24YpF4D5UmtpAKKqdMXtIc cRioeuxzREXm7D1m9WIBOQXCHS7BY32XHKFTZsQTQzxZ+ZRrNVH3Oc84STPvAFoMTpw8 hHQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=ak7bV1/xkG/YvIA0dU2zMpiNE7fNYfX+D8+FZ89gy34=; b=I93O+tii9pG9AcmXQx57ObiNOHombWitQBVj08dDSfbQuntE5addf0/VEfLdidbVSN yznD2Ib7c6WNQxD7QrljgNNSc2VSgMGcCKLzOr22YgepyUnBua5VGWv0MxkBIUV0Xy3X MQhBnZqNZdln013ITucPih406X6Q948Zxw+mqXM1Tx5hMqDhOI3y3ZlfpZCwwv9VU8eH /yE0Ry/rw3dS87YIRcl1YlgIIOlNhGCWqZipEZEbqmVqOJj1d6CBJT6an0ITsS0rfgW/ 3VGTPstzyDsHMi54bJwSccTU+ph4k+6Q2N6xWWG78kCw8ZOHamnqSbK5ni3YxYD4+M5h kPkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111Dwyht6gqfLFlTkytDsDpDz7v2jm7BLjeZZekXSSKYebEruweC TU/9kW+ybpbPIrgAMbk= X-Received: by 10.28.0.19 with SMTP id 19mr1719839wma.168.1500542054550; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:ed58:c3ea:de7e:8f3f? ([2001:67c:1232:144:ed58:c3ea:de7e:8f3f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k76sm2354810wmg.38.2017.07.20.02.14.13 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Dino Farinacci Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:14:12 -0700 To: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:14:18 -0000 As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the IDEAs = effort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I think = all overlay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based database. = And since security has to be a number 1 priority requirement, we have to = create something new. When I say =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D, I mean to create an operational = infrastructure where the loc/id split control protocols can be deployed = at scale. We have an application level database, it is called DNS. We = need a network-layer database. I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can provide, = but how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer database = infrastructure for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and ILNP *already* = provide. Dino From nobody Thu Jul 20 02:53:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509F8127735 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qQWxc5Tqm0nm for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (mx04.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A82AC131A81 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 02:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.146.37] (dhcp-9225.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.146.37]) by mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D03F13E457 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:53:17 +0200 (CEST) To: "ideas@ietf.org" From: Michael Menth Message-ID: <946e8ec2-a6c8-658e-cdf3-60b855dcaeb1@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:53:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] related work X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:53:29 -0000 Hi all, here is a pointer to the paper David Oran mentioned during the BoF. It relates to ideas insofar as it addresses the tussle between privacy and accontability. http://www.sigcomm.org/node/3643 To my understanding it is more about accountability and less about loc/id split. Though, we should know about it. Thanks David! Best wishes, Michael -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Thu Jul 20 03:18:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D654131C03 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 03:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AdguZK83pSik for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 03:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88A8E131BFA for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 03:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DKY07860; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:18:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([10.201.109.53]) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com ([10.201.108.43]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:18:37 +0100 From: Georgios Karagiannis To: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: topic on the use of a permanent Identity in IDEAS concept Thread-Index: AdMBQZD3kPqZxxVoTEmvvsVXmjxyZQ== Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:18:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.73.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C5034E44CD620A44971BAAEB372655DC2DCFB8A9lhreml502mbs_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.59708380.0009, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e3bb9adfa906773a80a310bd090f7b72 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] topic on the use of a permanent Identity in IDEAS concept X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:18:43 -0000 --_000_C5034E44CD620A44971BAAEB372655DC2DCFB8A9lhreml502mbs_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, During the IDEAS BOF, Jari Arkko mentioned that it is arguable to adopt a = concept that requires the use of a permanent Identity; I hope that during the BOF was satisfactorily clarified that the IDEAS conc= ept is not requiring the use of a permanent Identity; Best regards, Georgios --_000_C5034E44CD620A44971BAAEB372655DC2DCFB8A9lhreml502mbs_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

During the IDEAS BOF, Jari Arkko  mentioned tha= t it is arguable to adopt a concept that requires the use of a permanent Id= entity;

 

I hope that during the BOF was satisfactorily clarif= ied that the IDEAS concept is not requiring the use of a permanent Identity= ;

 

 

Best regards,

Georgios

 

--_000_C5034E44CD620A44971BAAEB372655DC2DCFB8A9lhreml502mbs_-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 05:18:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A293131BF9 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:18:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZ5yXr6nkIYI for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65841300BB for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F0262192; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:18:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tS-7Y2lvwXrS; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (dhcp-831f.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.131.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E21B662180; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:18:26 -0400 (EDT) To: Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" References: <946e8ec2-a6c8-658e-cdf3-60b855dcaeb1@uni-tuebingen.de> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <5077d2a2-882a-79f3-c8c4-28c087c73c90@htt-consult.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:18:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <946e8ec2-a6c8-658e-cdf3-60b855dcaeb1@uni-tuebingen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] related work X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:18:44 -0000 Oops, I have an appology, I thought David said PIP, which was Paul's IP and one of the IPng competitors that had some neat features to handle the EID challenge. But was considered non-implementable back in that day. Shows the age of some of my information... Bob On 07/20/2017 11:53 AM, Michael Menth wrote: > Hi all, > > here is a pointer to the paper David Oran mentioned during the BoF. It > relates to ideas insofar as it addresses the tussle between privacy and > accontability. > http://www.sigcomm.org/node/3643 > To my understanding it is more about accountability and less about > loc/id split. Though, we should know about it. Thanks David! > > Best wishes, > > Michael > From nobody Thu Jul 20 07:50:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87636131CDA for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bub2jg0YAbIc for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6679E131CF8 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2C46227F for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:50:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 9AKv9M-oXHE2 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (dhcp-831f.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.131.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 88BF96221F for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:50:00 -0400 (EDT) To: "ideas@ietf.org" From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <2f38d70f-6526-3d7b-5a42-69ac94f9f3cf@htt-consult.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:49:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Are Identities permanent or have a life cycle? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:50:14 -0000 This is to Jari's question. What is the nature of Indentity to Entity relationship. What IS Identity and how is it presented. After working on this for over 20 years, this is HARD!!! And we may need to scope out what is meant or punt. If I buy a notebook on ebay, does its Identity change as the meta data associated with the notebook most likely will change? I tried to use 'the language used to communication knowledge of Identity' or some such wording. Meaning that the language is mutable and has a lifecycle itself. So if there is a claim that a x.509 cert represents the Identity, can it change? Well in IEEE 802.1AR the iDevID is immutable and never changes for the usable life of the Entity. It is the lDevID that changes. But in use, it is the lDevID that the system operates with! I feel this is an important position for the workgroup to develop concensus around. Identity, IMHO, is NOT the 'DNA' of the Entity (work on clip power analysis to create such a DNA record). I believe there is Lasic (sp?) surgery that can change eye color... :) I do not hold that this needs to be nailed down in the Charter before the workgroup. This is one of the workgroup items: Defining Identity and how it is managed and discovered. I am willing to put my stake in the ground that Identity is mutable and inevitably changes through the life of the Entity. Further that an Entity (ignoring hypervisor/virtual machine scenarios) may have multiple Identities at any time, yielding different Identifiers that may all map to the same location. I know others disagree. I will work with the group position. Bob From nobody Thu Jul 20 08:11:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17A9131CDF for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:11:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h4YDuAdMvP4O for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms.etri.re.kr (mscreen.etri.re.kr [129.254.9.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EA51252BA for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO smtpeg.etri.re.kr) (129.254.27.142) by 129.254.9.16 with ESMTP; 21 Jul 2017 00:10:50 +0900 X-Original-SENDERIP: 129.254.27.142 X-Original-MAILFROM: jhong@etri.re.kr X-Original-RCPTTO: ideas@ietf.org, farinacci@gmail.com Received: from SMTP2.etri.info (129.254.28.72) by SMTPEG2.etri.info (129.254.27.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 00:10:59 +0900 Received: from SMTP1.etri.info ([169.254.1.17]) by SMTP2.etri.info ([10.2.6.31]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 00:10:58 +0900 From: Jungha Hong To: Dino Farinacci , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP Thread-Index: AQHTATiUpRc6YiR4ikCW7lFjGgxadKJcyxQr Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:10:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> Accept-Language: ko-KR, en-US Content-Language: ko-KR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-new-displayname: SnVuZ2hhIEhvbmc= x-originating-ip: [129.254.28.44] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F8EFC212DF9A004DA18AA8FB011E4233A8EC4686SMTP1etriinfo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:12:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CnosgDInNcE1 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9C19131CE3 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.137.43] (dhcp-892b.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v6KFC6Dq023702 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:12:07 -0700 To: Dino Farinacci , Erik Nordmark Cc: ideas@ietf.org References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:12:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVbfrWRdAD7XUfEo4ztiU91kl0svNWd7NjdmHl4kSPxYYI0ulddyJZUXVI+LxY0CF6RpW3rXOOuj/9Eija3lDZrc X-Sonic-ID: C;/PXoyl1t5xGGk/sKk0eh0A== M;Dnviy11t5xGGk/sKk0eh0A== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:12:13 -0000 On 07/20/2017 10:50 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >> I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear identifiers. >> >> But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means that the transport sessions would break. >> >> Seems like a tricky tradeoff. > > I believe we can have it both ways. > > If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs stay assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the encapsulated packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You can get privacy either way. Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived connections and short-lived connections using different identifiers that might provide the ability for an observer to link the different identifiers together. A resourceful observer with the ability to observe on many links and networks than then build up the collection of identifiers which have been used by a single identity. (Unlinkability is defined in rfc6973) One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and other things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same time as the locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a new network/link, but that will break the long-lived connections that are active when the change happens. Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting everything but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only the locators are needed for packet delivery. Erik > > Also note, in LISP, one can use ephemeral-EIDs and still get crypto-based authentication using a crypto-EID for the sole purpose of sending Map-Registers and Map-Requests and not for transport connections. > > Dino > > From nobody Thu Jul 20 08:13:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78941252BA for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CIv4eVCT9Gse for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F8B11317CC for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id w191so29923999wmw.1 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SMzY+me9FifH64CU3UKBSpW7+L6aYVWRsL04Kyb42V8=; b=FhsvEUL7ou99x05dD4sEsfMcr+GkO4ahWLQusOHeLZlhyTYZ7/+xsa47XIqCvmSg0z fMPA+mBbGF8SJqFz8r0QSjuQNzpDIqkVXG1imDlm4SS9im6pVszGCZEI5UFUyvnEymZG MM0eB55vKqEy1iYFIUaltNltJLDkXEcZZe1R6MwawBGnDMMcm0UJAFRdVb4K4dQTae/Q 6fRIYgw/CgNuaNlK4R10HwmUMC7VWtiFVp+0Ap+bhOlI6NlVYAiheWCHKBexjSzEAEA5 yzXTln4UjNUlkFFGvEmPSvkUXTwm0BGvVtuBm/8X7Hqidk8ybyPlRJsbvmHsAuaIxHtA gMaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SMzY+me9FifH64CU3UKBSpW7+L6aYVWRsL04Kyb42V8=; b=qU9sgnfS7ujfj1UJqtOGYGXMov8JPkhEE7+lIFZ24SH3J96xhgVRKYY7PSpBMomTmH cEPL4vF1+U4VaetlkAqREMFA5tPrdxtju0xn03W9z5sbVA4Ryrj3QnAIHWd6xKd/MjGl MtOxlUgUx8YLiBP+kQYmSBbTTFvlYj/GhLjD9DRT7waEm5Z8LHxMVVFpqIrL5gzZnmJx A7XD86mcRafzTtIHn2mbl9wsRp9F9h32fl3yVNQvmXZMb4UKAyECLy2rA7gSfQBryn4s 1NqUUnvt3v/Y2zg1sr/h+7FeP4wZoNJf1u9ywdz0vMUcZm058eWDH1/CCt/Fs+Zv/kJd iF/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110veGd9laR8/XgXBjYc2hdqDK5SzK9afi+VPVXumjyj8lZu3+T1 OAuLNXE4v3NBCCnN+Yg= X-Received: by 10.28.27.67 with SMTP id b64mr2745840wmb.11.1500563610897; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:d5:3018:803f:4b22? ([2001:67c:370:128:d5:3018:803f:4b22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u30sm3668399wru.88.2017.07.20.08.13.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:13:29 -0700 Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22F6CC93-CB03-4A5E-AD8C-B69864E98FA4@gmail.com> References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> To: Jungha Hong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:13:34 -0000 > Actually, in my project, we have desined and implemented a mapping = system between ID and locator(s) especially for supporting a flat typed = ID efficiently. It was designed as a network-layer database. Jungha, if you can share, it would be nice to hear some detailed = properties of the database. I=E2=80=99m particulary interested on your = pubsub scalability. Thanks, Dino From nobody Thu Jul 20 08:14:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFCE131B5B for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:14:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0MZUP7Lvmxd for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A62511317CC for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.137.43] (dhcp-892b.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v6KFEU0O026257 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:14:32 -0700 References: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> To: ideas@ietf.org From: Erik Nordmark X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:14:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZxoK3u9+d+XJGxGoNdDFEYPlz2LRe55GKI+CeXJKzBclg7cZ6OScOq9kjv6nJikD6TA/7BdCYHz0oJ6h7ml1Iq X-Sonic-ID: C;oJSqIF5t5xGU+PsKk0eh0A== M;kmetIV5t5xGU+PsKk0eh0A== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:14:35 -0000 On 07/20/2017 10:50 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >> I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear identifiers. >> >> But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means that the transport sessions would break. >> >> Seems like a tricky tradeoff. > > I believe we can have it both ways. > > If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs stay assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the encapsulated packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You can get privacy either way. Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived connections and short-lived connections using different identifiers that might provide the ability for an observer to link the different identifiers together. A resourceful observer with the ability to observe on many links and networks than then build up the collection of identifiers which have been used by a single identity. (Unlinkability is defined in rfc6973) One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and other things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same time as the locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a new network/link, but that will break the long-lived connections that are active when the change happens. Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting everything but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only the locators are needed for packet delivery. Erik > > Also note, in LISP, one can use ephemeral-EIDs and still get crypto-based authentication using a crypto-EID for the sole purpose of sending Map-Registers and Map-Requests and not for transport connections. > > Dino > > From nobody Thu Jul 20 08:26:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7D1131D10 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:26:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0k2UQX20Txae for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB6BB131D14 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.137.43] (dhcp-892b.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v6KFQdjL004978 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:26:40 -0700 To: Robert Moskowitz , "ideas@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko References: <2f38d70f-6526-3d7b-5a42-69ac94f9f3cf@htt-consult.com> From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:26:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2f38d70f-6526-3d7b-5a42-69ac94f9f3cf@htt-consult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVbCRXRRFPL+n9k6uuKs0mXDMmI/+eMWUyRPEtvci0lulq4l1wtwnf4mCpLHwTvDpDxSJOFQWdK7pqyjkSfTQn0i X-Sonic-ID: C;2O4s019t5xGLqPsKk0eh0A== M;3qgl1F9t5xGLqPsKk0eh0A== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Are Identities permanent or have a life cycle? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:26:53 -0000 On 07/20/2017 04:49 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > This is to Jari's question. I'll le Jari speak for himself, but there might be a concern about the privacy considerations for long-lived identities/identifiers which we have seen in the last for instance when including the IEEE MAC address in auto-generated IPv6 addresses. Such a concern is unrelated to the nature and definition of identity. The IETF and the large community clearly has significant privacy concerns when such a number is disclosed everywhere as was the case with those IPv6 addresses. But in the case of the identity in IDEAS I think the idea is that it wouldn't be widely exposed; not carried in datapackets etc. From my perspective I think that is fine. In many cases I expect devices to have a hardware root of trust with manufacturing certificates, owner certificates, etc which can be used as part of secure/trusted boot with remote attestation etc. BUT such identifying information should only be disclosed on a need-to-know basis. For instance, the owner of an endpoint might have an inventory management system which tracks their endpoints and their secure boot state. But I don't think we've had discussion about this in the IETF context, and it would be broader than IDEAS. Erik > > What is the nature of Indentity to Entity relationship. What IS > Identity and how is it presented. > > After working on this for over 20 years, this is HARD!!! And we may > need to scope out what is meant or punt. > > If I buy a notebook on ebay, does its Identity change as the meta data > associated with the notebook most likely will change? > > I tried to use 'the language used to communication knowledge of > Identity' or some such wording. Meaning that the language is mutable > and has a lifecycle itself. So if there is a claim that a x.509 cert > represents the Identity, can it change? Well in IEEE 802.1AR the iDevID > is immutable and never changes for the usable life of the Entity. It is > the lDevID that changes. But in use, it is the lDevID that the system > operates with! > > I feel this is an important position for the workgroup to develop > concensus around. Identity, IMHO, is NOT the 'DNA' of the Entity (work > on clip power analysis to create such a DNA record). I believe there is > Lasic (sp?) surgery that can change eye color... :) > > I do not hold that this needs to be nailed down in the Charter before > the workgroup. This is one of the workgroup items: Defining Identity > and how it is managed and discovered. > > I am willing to put my stake in the ground that Identity is mutable and > inevitably changes through the life of the Entity. Further that an > Entity (ignoring hypervisor/virtual machine scenarios) may have multiple > Identities at any time, yielding different Identifiers that may all map > to the same location. > > I know others disagree. I will work with the group position. > > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Thu Jul 20 08:42:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465D612EC46 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:42:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agQW3vzh1fU6 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms.etri.re.kr (mscreen.etri.re.kr [129.254.9.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A37C126CB6 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO smtpeg.etri.re.kr) (129.254.27.141) by 129.254.9.16 with ESMTP; 21 Jul 2017 00:42:18 +0900 X-Original-SENDERIP: 129.254.27.141 X-Original-MAILFROM: jhong@etri.re.kr X-Original-RCPTTO: ideas@ietf.org, farinacci@gmail.com Received: from SMTP3.etri.info (129.254.28.73) by SMTPEG1.etri.info (129.254.27.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 00:42:23 +0900 Received: from SMTP1.etri.info ([169.254.1.17]) by SMTP3.etri.info ([10.2.6.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 00:42:24 +0900 From: Jungha Hong To: Dino Farinacci CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP Thread-Index: AQHTATiUpRc6YiR4ikCW7lFjGgxadKJcyxQr//9xF4CAAJvlng== Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:42:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> , <22F6CC93-CB03-4A5E-AD8C-B69864E98FA4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <22F6CC93-CB03-4A5E-AD8C-B69864E98FA4@gmail.com> Accept-Language: ko-KR, en-US Content-Language: ko-KR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-new-displayname: SnVuZ2hhIEhvbmc= x-originating-ip: [129.254.28.44] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F8EFC212DF9A004DA18AA8FB011E4233A8EC46DESMTP1etriinfo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:56:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.66 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:56:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 08:56:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Erik Nordmark Cc: Dino Farinacci , Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:57:00 -0000 On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:12 AM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > On 07/20/2017 10:50 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >>> >>> I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a >>> longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear >>> identifiers. >>> >>> But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection >>> identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means >>> that the transport sessions would break. >>> >>> Seems like a tricky tradeoff. >> >> >> I believe we can have it both ways. >> >> If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport >> connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs stay >> assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the encapsulated >> packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You can get privacy either >> way. > > > Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived connections and > short-lived connections using different identifiers that might provide the > ability for an observer to link the different identifiers together. A > resourceful observer with the ability to observe on many links and networks > than then build up the collection of identifiers which have been used by a > single identity. (Unlinkability is defined in rfc6973) > > One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and other > things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same time as the > locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a new network/link, > but that will break the long-lived connections that are active when the > change happens. > > Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting everything > but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only the locators are > needed for packet delivery. > Right, that would have to include the transport headers since it would be easy to correlate packets for the same flow by looking at sequence and ack numbers. Also changing addresses of an existing TCP connection will wreak havoc on stateful middleboxes like firewalls. Maybe the goal should be to prevent correlation of identity between flows. Tom > Erik > > >> >> Also note, in LISP, one can use ephemeral-EIDs and still get crypto-based >> authentication using a crypto-EID for the sole purpose of sending >> Map-Registers and Map-Requests and not for transport connections. >> >> Dino >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 20 10:34:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10E5131D18 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MjzdNJbXq3ao for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15085131CEB for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id g127so33247282wmd.0 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=9K5TOJ/b4CMJ9+Av0tr2vdQzvEhgfKqgQh3Qz459JUA=; b=AMYOWuyMdgXPSfHFumUqfe9qLdR7WjZywYBhFpQqLFRbkYU4FgHZiKlZWWKVB8hRyA +m837g2/IbHOJz0IySom8G5pZrm46/MPUBLgpARcDMcAVcLultfwEpDroqpC52a54C+0 fH51RdWWDY+MmUuLW4dbcgZsm9XYpKmonAfRc2m7uuowB597teR9qhlAT4UEYEoKk1er u2VsgXpGYwoTbw5dpXJIw5mIvvs927A3jLO/lWCiJGcq2K6UH99rJBqrHzjYDzu7+cgX X/aKjG8qVXfgufmozvczJ89myzNBjwG/PDw41OVYMbHg+60doKrvSGDimYW2zVz/K+Mb 127w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=9K5TOJ/b4CMJ9+Av0tr2vdQzvEhgfKqgQh3Qz459JUA=; b=sQDWthnkSZZRD1/8XNj6MurTR+v5+EF/EaB4iCWNZR2Lkthr8jxEt4USHBqLQWiD0B 5xxAbcYLj7XLxISyf+2cgTlXIgeVXMm1567KqYooxW/nspiNuW/Y9qAsPVqkWK9EWHSt 1vpvJna340lsVcO1PwyyF2/MS0htt1lxHaCT3CiV7VmGv45QzHhm2tw+x90s6/s0Rcvg cLATFyGyJSHskOstYwh6/DjesScuI59ny2QNmQge3bgn52EOaESKBjoe0qZ2thQckVMy liq12uWv8eoz0zTKzgRaj0+7H78FUVzTYa4bKCUAu33vBG1EpWHTlkfcYwsKqCCslFGs 8ACQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112yI2799T+Fb7ktIrviWgN4/weIqLZFA7svLJeueLEcjOVv8IEt 9Ka1hc2xdymvnA== X-Received: by 10.28.29.72 with SMTP id d69mr2802536wmd.9.1500572061577; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:2838:ce19:51ee:18eb? ([2001:67c:1232:144:2838:ce19:51ee:18eb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p27sm2924772wmf.23.2017.07.20.10.34.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:34:19 -0700 Cc: Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> To: Erik Nordmark X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:34:25 -0000 > Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived = connections and short-lived connections using different identifiers that = might provide the ability for an observer to link the different = identifiers together. A resourceful observer with the ability to observe = on many links and networks than then build up the collection of = identifiers which have been used by a single identity. (Unlinkability is = defined in rfc6973) If an the xTR has multiple RLOCs, it can use different ones for = encapsulated traffic for both long-lived and short-lived sessions and = EIDs, while EIDs are encrypted. It will be harder to associate when multiple addresses are BOTH = encrypted and changing. Note, changing RLOCs does not change the path = packets arrive to these EIDs. However, on egress, uRPF issues may be = created. So one will need to have multiple PA addresses for each link = connected to different providers. > One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and = other things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same time = as the locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a new = network/link, but that will break the long-lived connections that are = active when the change happens. There is no reason on a point-to-point link that a source MAC cannot be = 00:00:00:00:00:00. That is pretty good obfuscation if you believe it is = needed. > Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting = everything but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only the = locators are needed for packet delivery. Yes, "everthing should be encrypted . . . always=E2=80=9D (tm). ;-) Dino From nobody Thu Jul 20 10:37:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8342E131D1C for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.059, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.437, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kphEeOuDjXHn for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60325131CEB for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id g127so33305444wmd.0 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=hut92sorRqvFYbagjqbYfEpLf3zlScPaXuTh+3KGfkU=; b=oilX416/ocoRx4Wx+wCWyENnN+I+B2PULBVb8IZ6Lx2EByLq3/HBIhYqsr8eiZLL7P wppLvkxRd1d6l+/0sQEKTEeyObwZBJqPQYGS7qJiqIpPKmSS1H8MgntSXZSwtgjP47w6 IeOd4bGNOe58qqqksIr5aJkdqXvHxslWAOcobUiBbkQbpR0YRY2mEcz5WaVVkd2RMccd dKdP1sD8xMOiN14rRP2y1/iAIjgc928kCbyCkEo5ZR55k/gbRTxCB9y9hOVx2xtuCetw 3DLPceoXLSOoB2s8YPtA4LBqdd6mgIx9IJskmg4EHg3f3G6q2J+AoiwLQtz0VcLwyO3g OIAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=hut92sorRqvFYbagjqbYfEpLf3zlScPaXuTh+3KGfkU=; b=t+ZZa58dUuSQYDygZvbWi4WHJBGh8TYwvy2CzuXRBBhR2P+vIYfYqMrsw2vNukF0us 8qrP10Vl9ikHOgEAh+FHk63hEIdJtrZXXCl3HKE1R6WerJYHi4c4OTwCxEilQsMkfNEw Z0QXfdsIHbyiqYg5FnfiTCJu2k3YhSGaNpGsmpRpxC63OAPYzewDlvSaYpcfLXzmO3zf C73g+Rkdb0HeTY85eSBdcMtjGpZbdw6+CIGKA/qs+xJyvnx8vUqh8Ytx4hEQfdGlYuhA LqhJY+vmEHJ9ZWwAjnwYLCS0ZAAZLJumr15ggT/eLX479R/knb0AYXQiKhXIQo1ib+K4 X/AQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112VWtk4WnSmDab2vxTWLxYd4vMCTq1/15lggeKPxkXJwLmSYXa9 EEIDjQ7VHACZ+A== X-Received: by 10.28.95.214 with SMTP id t205mr3073486wmb.181.1500572236881; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:2838:ce19:51ee:18eb? ([2001:67c:1232:144:2838:ce19:51ee:18eb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 92sm5868376wro.68.2017.07.20.10.37.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Dino Farinacci Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2AA5396C-DE02-4A10-A69D-53FF721B4F7F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:37:13 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Erik Nordmark , Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org To: Tom Herbert References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:37:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2AA5396C-DE02-4A10-A69D-53FF721B4F7F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Right, that would have to include the transport headers since it would > be easy to correlate packets for the same flow by looking at sequence > and ack numbers. Also changing addresses of an existing TCP connection > will wreak havoc on stateful middleboxes like firewalls. Maybe the > goal should be to prevent correlation of identity between flows. In lisp-crypto (RFC8061), everything after the LISP header is encrypted. = The LISP header must be in the clear so we can use multiple keys (see KK = bits below). Dino --Apple-Mail=_2AA5396C-DE02-4A10-A69D-53FF721B4F7F Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_89A2B98E-89F2-412E-A0CF-3E87C6D13770" --Apple-Mail=_89A2B98E-89F2-412E-A0CF-3E87C6D13770 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Right, that would have to include the transport headers since = it would
be easy to correlate packets for the same flow by looking at = sequence
and ack numbers. Also changing addresses of an = existing TCP connection
will wreak havoc on stateful = middleboxes like firewalls. Maybe the
goal should be to = prevent correlation of identity between flows.

In = lisp-crypto (RFC8061), everything after the LISP header is encrypted. = The LISP header must be in the clear so we can use multiple keys (see KK = bits below).

Dino



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([2001:67c:1232:144:2838:ce19:51ee:18eb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v8sm160900wrv.16.2017.07.20.10.40.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:40:41 -0700 Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> <22F6CC93-CB03-4A5E-AD8C-B69864E98FA4@gmail.com> To: Jungha Hong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:40:46 -0000 > For scalability, we had to take the tree structure for the mapping = system like DNS. Like the LISP WG did for LISP-DDT (RFC8111). > But our contribution was how to update/lookup (pub/sub) the locator(s) = by a flat typed ID which is registered in somewhere on the mapping = system. My pubsub related questions is this. If something else publishes an = entry, and I look it up, cache it, will the mapping system notify me = when the mapping changes? > I would like to introduce our mapping system as one of the solutions = for a flat typed ID in the IDEAS meeting when it is possible. That would be great. Thanks for sharing. Dino From nobody Thu Jul 20 11:29:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DE6131B39 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RjJjqAXiRPUb for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D86613191D for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v105so43913963wrb.0 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wFiSV6f959Q5AkwX49+FeY0MVSOSSfleq4rkxZAgJKc=; b=X0VABwhkhldASf25HFRpGgUPu2XpN4RFL5PSb6/1rL/rbWLYx3ZxVc9xkO1N752NNz 6TU9YaMVEx9iUWghc+3OCapylQEXURcNKz4IGl8n40UrxrnaiRzfOtv9erbx6jjf03Gs Bu8eBEmudzkeFX8zQgKH3bgpPPxffOT74myKFXkQwT0iTlSif/moB5lbBYtV64BoyXAe yScSarH3Fe+RqNRP4v8hZtVQKIu/SYHrekDnOtLzwH1F5sXqgHa9Xyn9X5iPeMp1yYet 4nsh4HKVJgc+0urqf6EraYp61Mm25KhhqgYPrvGNzZMFGKlPfZc9YIurmiWnmKZqSENv 9eKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wFiSV6f959Q5AkwX49+FeY0MVSOSSfleq4rkxZAgJKc=; b=Y/6LoEOJLU6cinTru8pSxww0V6k8u/2WTEt1F3rlP+dVqeEze4Brbqqunm889aIVBr kiVC/JUmNhtnBhMx8KZi3Yptsv9T1e7Q8JcWLOs8cKYVn6scjhIuUWOIHntxOKHnhAhn 5s1VCahlOPtpTwblvEI94lt9nMsDUTxUTpwX7YDM0MDNKRb6xKksJBnIp/gRCzl5MKCA soU6hhqgCrVwOgOgvJdjK7ZwO09VqcqV26tF2YjbU2ezUVx+FI6CUQGZ4mzoHTBOThns gFKbXrHuMB9Ct95707egc7XzDtGXr++YNTM/59wYMRE1zSI2ZQpIG2VWj5fOSAByu11W Du6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112ag6BQcxYNR9Sn5mYtSBQ85NZiRkczoWhSvcPnrgu3lTAZFPLR fZDL5rorpzrETBsGDd5+51euLGIH4/t1 X-Received: by 10.223.135.249 with SMTP id c54mr7951996wrc.98.1500575370666; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.66 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] GRIDs and ILA X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:29:34 -0000 As I mentioned oin int-area list, our intent is that GRIDs will provide the control plane for ILA. We don't want to define an ILA specific mapping system. IMO, ILA and other protocols that are either performed identifier/locator mapping or virtual address to physical address mapping such as in nvo3 are best served by a common system. The system solves than just the point problems of the given protocol but includes a path to scalability a well thought out security model. Tom From nobody Thu Jul 20 12:07:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DEA131822 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.404, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_06=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NlpPRqEZx3eZ for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com (mail-wr0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82921124E15 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id y43so74341938wrd.3 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hbQHJWxAofJsGhppxoBhCGCaUtHnZDWGwNcRiNm1I5U=; b=HD8H7aA6DvSDki/Scw2WZVgjUaPQwr8VOVQehcwFGTdpl1VNtRHS+yUiCOeidrqp2l KfQINSGQ0fd4MdZYU1HLMJQ+NF7zXmuU2pgcc7/ROX2CQ2xoxVJOI6Yz2Ptc1aUAO7N9 AdNUPt9GJmvvIQf43WWiwxo2WP5P8HDYYXLhzy4z9KU5MgqjZBNC3yBxlllWa6Z50SiZ OBWP5yFd+oHJNx3LPe4gCT6IKPF3O87lTyHKJboEU48pc4clbWikXx6jCBWB2uqLPd00 KLn5FdNkPsCnz4zsg2TKvmVaxE7E1zH224+n623vHV0zLXHqhQUUitGHZiVfQNwRT64m 6eMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hbQHJWxAofJsGhppxoBhCGCaUtHnZDWGwNcRiNm1I5U=; b=I318G0bQYgOJjOULhch/RRVsONJ9hJcptmGQN3N1b8ASac/LrBtPggXEnylr5Nz8G1 ygSWR4MeirIlNpZhMNh4ySjpCI1B3bVvlRVUriwzRMHtMLKUAXqqjEkgtLMcpdUVn73H wPcjkViMrcXx6vscbJ/SwdkRfrETXgKHVYMECcKFBusb5r3jd8ahXC0Bsv2LP81qUPc3 5bghbPpy6OUr0zriPB8VI8ByN0weeMoOeAaOcOY3LpdOWsJ7ayxBOUmQZ8hjdCODKkG2 y/PuhAEc/aW4OMz2d7IlCKu7+n+LLRUwTJuIROtb4KNuad9s/dvDXI4nFt4rM+8plLMk Pvog== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111sFvSjMOM+c0F3i/lJgsZ3VWPU9MCIWrzvdFc5NXq8/TjHX6Yk Y0VqsC8gCv/s7Ca0DvRyuDbC/vDm67yU X-Received: by 10.223.169.2 with SMTP id u2mr3647135wrc.288.1500577629933; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.66 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:07:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dino Farinacci Cc: Erik Nordmark , Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="f403045cf2669763e20554c4743b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:07:14 -0000 --f403045cf2669763e20554c4743b Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045cf2669763df0554c4743a" --f403045cf2669763df0554c4743a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: > Right, that would have to include the transport headers since it would > > be easy to correlate packets for the same flow by looking at sequence > and ack numbers. Also changing addresses of an existing TCP connection > will wreak havoc on stateful middleboxes like firewalls. Maybe the > goal should be to prevent correlation of identity between flows. > > > In lisp-crypto (RFC8061), everything after the LISP header is encrypted. > The LISP header must be in the clear so we can use multiple keys (see KK > bits below). > Very nice. One could also use IPsec in tunnel mode, transport mode if the receiver knows how to map addresses to original source address. In that case the SPI would need to change for every address change. Even with all of this though, I'm still skeptical that this will ever achieve something we can call real security for identity protection of a long lived flow. Packets need to be routable in the Internet so there's only so much of the addresses that can be obfuscated and analysis of communication patterns can yields information even for encrypted flows. In practice it's probably far simpler to just not use long lived connections if identity is a concern there, applications already need to handle restarts for connection failures anyway so it's not a big deal to reestablish a connection (NAT state timeouts have already necessitated this model for several years). Tom > > Dino > > > > --f403045cf2669763df0554c4743a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Dino Farinacci <= farinacci@gmail.co= m> wrote:
Right, that w= ould have to include the transport headers since it would
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">be easy to correlate packets for the same flow by = looking at sequence
and ack numbers. Also changing addresses of an exist= ing TCP connection
will wreak havoc on stateful middleboxes like firewal= ls. Maybe the
goal should be to prevent correlation of identity between = flows.

In lisp-crypto (RFC8061), ever= ything after the LISP header is encrypted. The LISP header must be in the c= lear so we can use multiple keys (see KK bits below).
Very nice.

One could also use IPsec i= n tunnel mode, transport mode if the receiver knows how to map addresses to= original source address. In that case the SPI would need to change for eve= ry address change.

Even with all of this though, I= 'm still skeptical that this will ever achieve something we can call re= al security for identity protection of a long lived flow. Packets need to b= e routable in the Internet so there's only so much of the addresses tha= t can be obfuscated and analysis of communication patterns can yields infor= mation even for encrypted flows. In practice it's probably far simpler = to just not use long lived connections if identity is a concern there, appl= ications already need to handle restarts for connection failures anyway so = it's not a big deal to reestablish a connection (NAT state timeouts hav= e already necessitated this model for several years).

<= div>Tom
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Dino




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[31.133.158.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v16sm8560341wrc.65.2017.07.20.12.13.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14F89) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:13:52 +0200 Cc: Erik Nordmark , Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> To: Tom Herbert Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:13:58 -0000 > On Jul 20, 2017, at 9:07 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >=20 > Even with all of this though, I'm still skeptical that this will ever achi= eve something we can call real security for identity protection of a long li= ved flow. Packets need to be routable in the Internet so there's only so muc= h of the addresses that can be obfuscated and analysis of communication patt= erns can yields information even for encrypted flows. In practice it's proba= bly far simpler to just not use long lived connections if identity is a conc= ern there, applications already need to handle restarts for connection failu= res anyway so it's not a big deal to reestablish a connection (NAT state tim= eouts have already necessitated this model for several years). Only true when EIDs need to interwork with non-EIDs. Which I think will be n= ecessary for a long transition period. But for use in VPNs where each VPN si= te talks only to each other, you can have data-plane crypto all the time. An= d for container networking and IoT device to cloud app, this will also be th= e case.=20 Dino= From nobody Thu Jul 20 12:23:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894E61267BB for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id re-T6TuP0CVF for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x235.google.com (mail-qt0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58598129B61 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x235.google.com with SMTP id b40so30246359qtb.2 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:23:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4oSh15XJUdJBROcyluTx75wJJVeJfSpcaZV51qeak5o=; b=GHrgRXksG7XYOPdEQl/IG7bbgVqV1IahxLUzdMKK3uopx4yU0ofhfrUfmCaFR1ZB5h lyuoobbqRYAzuwvoDp3Lb0V+Z0C432SZujLCiu+R8pmGvBomlKHYx4DPkxUphbcDFl5r SjmEOvYQyPnU9aPwJyiZ0UaIN69QDS9K/I+d0OoiLIc7JGXTwVqgAHRKtbjZfIVlO65o dWsbeRBQ+bbQeDj9EXhlrAD+L7Cv3vOJaoSPlAG9vR+ZkiSuYr1ct+qcVxTKA63YImSo QNridIiVVhX+jLh1wWv6tPbum45CG4Hg39ySzEOFow+aazGPhezhLEjm66OkB3N8TaPV M/9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4oSh15XJUdJBROcyluTx75wJJVeJfSpcaZV51qeak5o=; b=da3AXGfk5sD55XjLbypOK4cd0RPKl93aq8k1oOm3x9qIyhK8XI1KTc6cPMhCVINQ7b R6Z4+zNLKKaa6090wXxtIFqW0C1ikSSf1PKo+wh2wfsabUuB9JcaCUZTbU27HBypfeon MWpO8aV8vk54qOOkB9LQYkDwQ/9raZBdtDZYXjDzopwjH1/ignaejYZmnPiV9rzSEW9G 8sd4hHahPj2qbQmbdzqtwaCKjD94WYYFzeI/VXwdAwzcR7I/5LqiCrFPZGa/lz6JuTZ3 8XAsiMcTchTrtCp+57EGLGiGWRiFnQZaVJv6Mstz1CPefAzTV15sIe8hH00L6Wj1yT9/ bR1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1128n+mN+tOCBC10zSkZXSyX50LR4nCHHEa8QtACnvkfG5gUptCs 6+IqOgAE/UyAimkUyyW0KnqM/fspcis9 X-Received: by 10.200.10.202 with SMTP id g10mr6124892qti.227.1500578631477; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.104.14 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5077d2a2-882a-79f3-c8c4-28c087c73c90@htt-consult.com> References: <946e8ec2-a6c8-658e-cdf3-60b855dcaeb1@uni-tuebingen.de> <5077d2a2-882a-79f3-c8c4-28c087c73c90@htt-consult.com> From: Albert Cabellos Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:23:51 +0200 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz Cc: Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e0822b528496d3c0554c4b0e7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] related work X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:23:57 -0000 --089e0822b528496d3c0554c4b0e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for pointing to this great paper. I agree, another difference is that the paper does not seek defining mechanisms for user-defied policies for privacy. On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > Oops, I have an appology, I thought David said PIP, which was Paul's IP > and one of the IPng competitors that had some neat features to handle the > EID challenge. But was considered non-implementable back in that day. > > Shows the age of some of my information... > > Bob > > On 07/20/2017 11:53 AM, Michael Menth wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> here is a pointer to the paper David Oran mentioned during the BoF. It >> relates to ideas insofar as it addresses the tussle between privacy and >> accontability. >> http://www.sigcomm.org/node/3643 >> To my understanding it is more about accountability and less about >> loc/id split. Though, we should know about it. Thanks David! >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Michael >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --089e0822b528496d3c0554c4b0e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for pointing to this great paper.

I agree, another difference is that the paper does not seek defining mech= anisms for user-defied policies for privacy.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 2:18 PM,= Robert Moskowitz <rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com> wrote:
Oops,=C2=A0 I have an appology, I thought = David said PIP, which was Paul's IP and one of the IPng competitors tha= t had some neat features to handle the EID challenge.=C2=A0 But was conside= red non-implementable back in that day.

Shows the age of some of my information...

Bob

On 07/20/2017 11:53 AM, Michael Menth wrote:
Hi all,

here is a pointer to the paper David Oran mentioned during the BoF. It
relates to ideas insofar as it addresses the tussle between privacy and
accontability.
http://www.sigcomm.org/node/3643
To my understanding it is more about accountability and less about
loc/id split. Though, we should know about it. Thanks David!

Best wishes,

Michael


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--089e0822b528496d3c0554c4b0e7-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 13:40:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407FE131468 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:40:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gTXyiUFgcTA2 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F2F612420B for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DRQ91453; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:40:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:40:35 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:40:31 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Dino Farinacci , Tom Herbert CC: Erik Nordmark , "ideas@ietf.org" , Erik Nordmark Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity Thread-Index: AQHTASrQA8hT40Pa70+th+iH95tXXqJc3ZuAgABqfgCAAAx+AIAAHBCAgAAZIACAAAHhAP//n1fA Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:40:30 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A32A37@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.79.77] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.59711544.01AC, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 9afd507c2267693d18d03a33458f99a2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:40:41 -0000 Couple of questions: 1. Not really fully sure what's the need for full encryption (if need is on= ly obfuscation of identifiers) of the packet, if obfuscation is done throug= h ephemeral identifiers. =20 2. Sure, If #1 is needed and packet is encrypted (above IP) with whether L= ISP encryption or IPSec tunnel mode, what is the privacy concern for long l= ived flow. What useful information observer would get in that case? And also=20 - there is a high possibility for double encryption (if ubiquitous enc= ryption is there at application layer), if we propose to "encrypt all" is t= he rule, even if the need is only obfuscation. - there could be late binding cases in the network and for that identif= iers has to be consulted - but we will have an issue if we ought to do ful= l encryption just for obfuscation. -- Uma C. -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dino Farinacci Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:14 PM To: Tom Herbert Cc: Erik Nordmark ; ideas@ietf.org; Erik Nordmark Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity > On Jul 20, 2017, at 9:07 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >=20 > Even with all of this though, I'm still skeptical that this will ever ach= ieve something we can call real security for identity protection of a long = lived flow. Packets need to be routable in the Internet so there's only so = much of the addresses that can be obfuscated and analysis of communication = patterns can yields information even for encrypted flows. In practice it's = probably far simpler to just not use long lived connections if identity is = a concern there, applications already need to handle restarts for connectio= n failures anyway so it's not a big deal to reestablish a connection (NAT s= tate timeouts have already necessitated this model for several years). Only true when EIDs need to interwork with non-EIDs. Which I think will be = necessary for a long transition period. But for use in VPNs where each VPN = site talks only to each other, you can have data-plane crypto all the time.= And for container networking and IoT device to cloud app, this will also b= e the case.=20 Dino _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 20 14:06:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1B212ECB7 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V-gPEUxZMi63 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x234.google.com (mail-wr0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 340D01201F2 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f21so18914090wrf.5 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6+wg/Hn/k62el7In5jxezyE4VLGM5WIYIkpxfFThhPg=; b=SijeL5uYib7jGEfbMfrAMNnBaribc+7RiyO9CVNmKbKEebOKAX2IgNcf5rdpsayEGK JORVDYoRVXOP+MPdeuv7mA8syl9cZlNeesH6RNDuo2LCc82KlLsi5x4u2oS59XcZM4WD DD22rmvPqilNOdYaWtqQLR/WathTsU1MxrEiyA+gIRm4OJAv+N2+NeK88ndKQTEBAMJL LplTWHoCZ1ScvzIk95lpoqTJmX+XmfmCubSQWH6crNRtEAYoZFgwZEX0viOo21HmDPZd r7S6Rig3CJaIbLB2IEnNrN/twSkkaVBM6nXMsGcw33GU370S6jR0xkHNpOcDkIBYg+Y4 W8lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6+wg/Hn/k62el7In5jxezyE4VLGM5WIYIkpxfFThhPg=; b=OgQPh74JL4BVUlmLtbHFzlX/Bllya1PFgw+a9qfREmWpqHV2DU3lwreN3pETSjz+fB qH1wbXlin9OiRM5HcDFSg5BDfFKDbQqMfQX/ZcdzAkymSx4VV33QK7ABINExqlwLmlFE yc35c0wI0d90omLyp2iYZbl0zdy0Qt2NyQW+dfytt7k4v0eCb5J+4dnutF5pJ0/X1S7G VfMqyIfXv+MuM4eIFn9lZEgz+NdAJqScnJK+aQTCk2Ohw2EdEshnEvw5YobG8FLB2rc0 nSIGgEjqgxAac0AzE4BM+4mCLnvBrclE6IJsjZ4eMmK4ALOzgk9Dam/NsGlDb6g88t6w zN6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1126rRNQqSWxJL/t1xE107LhCtq/5wDaZ92z4ChIDwR/kuXAlb/5 nAw7IUJ7jKOmIqto2izMDRyHKGsfo0Fg X-Received: by 10.223.135.249 with SMTP id c54mr8273884wrc.98.1500584812666; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.66 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A32A37@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A32A37@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:06:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Uma Chunduri Cc: Dino Farinacci , Erik Nordmark , "ideas@ietf.org" , Erik Nordmark Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:06:56 -0000 On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Uma Chunduri wro= te: > > > Couple of questions: > > 1. Not really fully sure what's the need for full encryption (if need is = only obfuscation of identifiers) of the packet, if obfuscation is done thro= ugh ephemeral identifiers. > The "need" would be to obfuscate other parts of the packet that contain information that could be used to discern that two packets are part the same flow even if they have different IP addresses. The most obvious data that comes to mind for would be port numbers and TCP sequence numbers and acknowlgements . > 2. Sure, If #1 is needed and packet is encrypted (above IP) with whether = LISP encryption or IPSec tunnel mode, what is the privacy concern for long= lived flow. What useful information observer would get in that case? > They would get a lot less information, but as I pointed out an observer can still infer some information based on communications pattern, packet sizes, etc. > And also > > - there is a high possibility for double encryption (if ubiquitous e= ncryption is there at application layer), if we propose to "encrypt all" is= the rule, even if the need is only obfuscation. > - there could be late binding cases in the network and for that ident= ifiers has to be consulted - but we will have an issue if we ought to do f= ull encryption just for obfuscation. > Full encryption would help this case and be beneficial for other aspects of security, however in the Internet we are no where near ubiquitous full packet encryption. Even TLS is not completely deployed yet. I would say it's a nice to have, but it can't be a requirement set by IDEAS, at best it's a MAY. Tom > -- > Uma C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dino Farinacci > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:14 PM > To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Erik Nordmark ; ideas@ietf.org; Erik Nordmark > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity > >> On Jul 20, 2017, at 9:07 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> Even with all of this though, I'm still skeptical that this will ever ac= hieve something we can call real security for identity protection of a long= lived flow. Packets need to be routable in the Internet so there's only so= much of the addresses that can be obfuscated and analysis of communication= patterns can yields information even for encrypted flows. In practice it's= probably far simpler to just not use long lived connections if identity is= a concern there, applications already need to handle restarts for connecti= on failures anyway so it's not a big deal to reestablish a connection (NAT = state timeouts have already necessitated this model for several years). > > Only true when EIDs need to interwork with non-EIDs. Which I think will b= e necessary for a long transition period. But for use in VPNs where each VP= N site talks only to each other, you can have data-plane crypto all the tim= e. And for container networking and IoT device to cloud app, this will also= be the case. > > Dino > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 20 14:25:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B67F126DC2 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:25:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pynMVyybiulL for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16494126C3D for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DRQ95294; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:25:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 22:25:19 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:25:17 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Tom Herbert CC: Dino Farinacci , Erik Nordmark , "ideas@ietf.org" , Erik Nordmark Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity Thread-Index: AQHTASrQA8hT40Pa70+th+iH95tXXqJc3ZuAgABqfgCAAAx+AIAAHBCAgAAZIACAAAHhAP//n1fAgACAOoD//428EA== Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:25:16 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A32A80@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A32A37@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.79.77] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.59711FC0.01C3, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 9afd507c2267693d18d03a33458f99a2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:25:24 -0000 SGkgVG9tLA0KDQoJPg0KCT4gMS4gTm90IHJlYWxseSBmdWxseSBzdXJlIHdoYXQncyB0aGUgbmVl ZCBmb3IgZnVsbCBlbmNyeXB0aW9uIChpZiBuZWVkIGlzIG9ubHkgb2JmdXNjYXRpb24gb2YgaWRl bnRpZmllcnMpIG9mIHRoZSBwYWNrZXQsIGlmIG9iZnVzY2F0aW9uIGlzIGRvbmUgdGhyb3VnaCBl cGhlbWVyYWwgaWRlbnRpZmllcnMuDQoJPg0KCVRoZSAibmVlZCIgd291bGQgYmUgdG8gb2JmdXNj YXRlIG90aGVyIHBhcnRzIG9mIHRoZSBwYWNrZXQgdGhhdCBjb250YWluIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHRo YXQgY291bGQgYmUgdXNlZCB0byBkaXNjZXJuIHRoYXQgdHdvIHBhY2tldHMgYXJlIHBhcnQgdGhl IHNhbWUgZmxvdyBldmVuIGlmIHRoZXkgaGF2ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgSVAgYWRkcmVzc2VzLiANCiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICBUaGUgbW9zdCBvYnZpb3VzIGRhdGEgdGhhdCBjb21lcyB0byBtaW5kIGZv ciB3b3VsZCBiZSBwb3J0IG51bWJlcnMgYW5kIFRDUCBzZXF1ZW5jZSBudW1iZXJzIGFuZCBhY2tu b3dsZ2VtZW50cyAuDQoNClllcywgdGhhdOKAmXMgcG9zc2libGUuIFNvIHdoYXQgaXMgdGhlIHNl Y3VyaXR5IGlzc3VlIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgYXMgeW91IHNhaWQgaWYgSVAgYWRkcmVzc2VzIGFyZSBj aGFuZ2luZy4gWWVzIGFuIG9ic2VydmVyIGlkZW50aWZ5IHRoZSBsb25nIGxpdmVkIGZsb3cgYmV0 d2VlbiB0d28gb2JmdXNjYXRlZCBvbmUgdGltZSAgaWRlbnRpZmllcnMuIEkgYW0gbWlzc2luZyBz b21lIHRoaW5nLg0KDQoNCgk+IDIuIFN1cmUsIElmICMxIGlzIG5lZWRlZCBhbmQgcGFja2V0IGlz IGVuY3J5cHRlZCAoYWJvdmUgSVApIHdpdGggd2hldGhlciAgTElTUCBlbmNyeXB0aW9uIG9yIElQ U2VjIHR1bm5lbCBtb2RlLCB3aGF0IGlzIHRoZSBwcml2YWN5IGNvbmNlcm4gZm9yIGxvbmcgbGl2 ZWQgZmxvdy4gV2hhdCB1c2VmdWwgIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIG9ic2VydmVyIHdvdWxkIGdldCBpbiB0 aGF0IGNhc2U/DQoJPg0KCVRoZXkgd291bGQgZ2V0IGEgbG90IGxlc3MgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24sIGJ1 dCBhcyBJIHBvaW50ZWQgb3V0IGFuIG9ic2VydmVyIGNhbiBzdGlsbCBpbmZlciBzb21lIGluZm9y bWF0aW9uIGJhc2VkIG9uIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb25zIHBhdHRlcm4sIHBhY2tldCBzaXplcywgZXRj Lg0KDQpSZW1lbWJlciBwYWRkaW5nIGZpZWxkIGluIElQU0VDICBFU1AgaGVhZGVyLCB0aGlzIGlz IHByZWNpc2VseSB0aGVyZSB0byBtYXNrIHBhY2tldCBzaXplcy4NCg0KDQoJPiBBbmQgYWxzbw0K CT4NCgk+ICAgICAtIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgaGlnaCBwb3NzaWJpbGl0eSBmb3IgZG91YmxlIGVuY3J5 cHRpb24gKGlmICB1YmlxdWl0b3VzIGVuY3J5cHRpb24gaXMgdGhlcmUgYXQgYXBwbGljYXRpb24g bGF5ZXIpLCBpZiB3ZSBwcm9wb3NlIHRvICJlbmNyeXB0IGFsbCIgaXMgdGhlIHJ1bGUsIGV2ZW4g aWYgdGhlIG5lZWQgaXMgb25seSBvYmZ1c2NhdGlvbi4NCgk+ICAgICAtIHRoZXJlIGNvdWxkIGJl IGxhdGUgYmluZGluZyBjYXNlcyBpbiB0aGUgbmV0d29yayBhbmQgZm9yIHRoYXQgaWRlbnRpZmll cnMgaGFzIHRvIGJlIGNvbnN1bHRlZCAtIGJ1dCB3ZSB3aWxsICBoYXZlIGFuIGlzc3VlIGlmIHdl IG91Z2h0IHRvIGRvIGZ1bGwgZW5jcnlwdGlvbiBqdXN0IGZvciBvYmZ1c2NhdGlvbi4NCgk+DQoJ RnVsbCBlbmNyeXB0aW9uIHdvdWxkIGhlbHAgdGhpcyBjYXNlIGFuZCBiZSBiZW5lZmljaWFsIGZv ciBvdGhlciBhc3BlY3RzIG9mIHNlY3VyaXR5LCBob3dldmVyIGluIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCB3ZSBh cmUgbm8gd2hlcmUgbmVhciB1YmlxdWl0b3VzIGZ1bGwgcGFja2V0IGVuY3J5cHRpb24uIEV2ZW4g VExTIGlzIG5vdCBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IGRlcGxveWVkIHlldC4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJIHdv dWxkIHNheSBpdCdzIGEgbmljZSB0byBoYXZlLCBidXQgaXQgY2FuJ3QgYmUgYSByZXF1aXJlbWVu dCBzZXQgYnkgSURFQVMsIGF0IGJlc3QgaXQncyBhIE1BWS4NCg0KQWdyZWUsIHRoYXQgaXMgd2hh dCBJIGZlZWwgYW5kIGRvbid0IHNlZSBJREVBUyBtYW5kYXRlZCBmdWxsIGVuY3J5cHRpb24sIHJh dGhlciBvcHBvc2l0ZSBhbmQgYWxsb3cgaWRlbnRpZmllcnMgb3V0c2lkZSAod2l0aCBvYmZ1c2Nh dGlvbiwgZXZlbiBpZiByZXN0IG9mIHRoZSBwYWNrZXQgaXMgZW5jcnlwdGVkKSB0byBoZWxwIGxh dGUgYmluZGluZyBhbmQgbGFzdCBRb1MgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gYmFzZWQgb24gSWRlbnRpZmllcnMg aWYgbmVlZGVkLg0KDQpUaHghDQoNCi0tDQpVbWEgQy4NCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Jul 21 02:29:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0DA131B5F for ; 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Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:28:58 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 02:28:51 -0700 From: Hesham ElBakoury To: Dino Farinacci , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP Thread-Index: AQHTATifpc0wSeXhA0q0z7k98084GqJeBMuA Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 09:28:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.210.166.206] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.5971C95F.00E8, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: dc537fef5197ad0f3fa70eaba470962a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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([2001:67c:370:128:e4ea:97e4:34f2:c6e1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c34sm8801144wra.80.2017.07.21.02.43.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Jul 2017 02:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14F89) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:43:26 +0200 Cc: Dino Farinacci , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <969B6680-CBFE-42DC-A3E5-514BB3B0D2D7@gmail.com> References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> To: Hesham ElBakoury Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 09:43:31 -0000 Hi Hesham Please check slides of PS that will give you better perspective. Thanks Padma Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 21, 2017, at 11:28, Hesham ElBakoury w= rote: >=20 > Hi Dino, >=20 > Are you suggesting to use LISP/HIP control protocol for IDEAS ? >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Hesham >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dino Farinacci > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 2:14 AM > To: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP >=20 > As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the IDEAs eff= ort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I think all over= lay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based database. And since se= curity has to be a number 1 priority requirement, we have to create somethin= g new. >=20 > When I say =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D, I mean to create an operational infrastr= ucture where the loc/id split control protocols can be deployed at scale. We= have an application level database, it is called DNS. We need a network-lay= er database. >=20 > I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can provide, bu= t how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer database infrastru= cture for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and ILNP *already* provide. >=20 > Dino >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Fri Jul 21 03:39:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE32129B7F for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dYyRA4L8pNyW for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBAA1127337 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DRR87815; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:39:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:39:38 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:39:32 -0700 From: Hesham ElBakoury To: Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" , Dino Farinacci Thread-Topic: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP Thread-Index: AQHTATifpc0wSeXhA0q0z7k98084GqJeBMuAgAB5tgD//5oa4A== Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:39:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> <969B6680-CBFE-42DC-A3E5-514BB3B0D2D7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <969B6680-CBFE-42DC-A3E5-514BB3B0D2D7@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.210.166.206] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0203.5971D9EB.003E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 5050f42d8c7ab5068952218a8deb1ae8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:39:42 -0000 VGhhbmtzIFBhZG1hLA0KDQpJIGxvb2tlZCBhdCB0aGUgUFMgc2xpZGVzIGFuZCBub3cgSSBoYXZl IGJldHRlciB1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBQUyBhbmQgSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBhcHBy b2FjaCB3ZSB3aWxsIGJlIHVzaW5nIHRvIGFkZHJlc3MgDQpJREVBUyBjb250cm9sIHByb3RvY29s Lg0KDQpIZXNoYW0NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IElkZWFzIFtt YWlsdG86aWRlYXMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFBhZG1hIFBpbGxheS1F c25hdWx0DQpTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIEp1bHkgMjEsIDIwMTcgMjo0MyBBTQ0KVG86IEhlc2hhbSBF bEJha291cnkNCkNjOiBpZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgRGlubyBGYXJpbmFjY2kNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJl OiBbSWRlYXNdIEdSSURzIGlzIGEgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IHVzZS1jYXNlIGZvciBMSVNQIGFuZCBISVAN Cg0KSGkgSGVzaGFtDQoNClBsZWFzZSBjaGVjayBzbGlkZXMgb2YgUFMgdGhhdCB3aWxsIGdpdmUg eW91IGJldHRlciBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZS4NCg0KVGhhbmtzDQpQYWRtYQ0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkg aVBob25lDQoNCj4gT24gSnVsIDIxLCAyMDE3LCBhdCAxMToyOCwgSGVzaGFtIEVsQmFrb3VyeSA8 SGVzaGFtLkVsQmFrb3VyeUBodWF3ZWkuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IEhpIERpbm8sDQo+IA0K PiBBcmUgeW91IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgdG8gdXNlIExJU1AvSElQIGNvbnRyb2wgcHJvdG9jb2wgZm9y IElERUFTID8NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcw0KPiANCj4gSGVzaGFtDQo+IA0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFs IE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBJZGVhcyBbbWFpbHRvOmlkZWFzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5v cmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBEaW5vIEZhcmluYWNjaQ0KPiBTZW50OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgSnVseSAy MCwgMjAxNyAyOjE0IEFNDQo+IFRvOiBpZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbSWRlYXNd IEdSSURzIGlzIGEgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IHVzZS1jYXNlIGZvciBMSVNQIGFuZCBISVANCj4gDQo+IEFz IG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgb3JpZ2luYWwgY29hdXRob3JzIG9mIExJU1AsIEkganVzdCB3YW50IHRvIHNh eSB0aGUgSURFQXMgZWZmb3J0IHdpbGwgYmUgd2VsbCBzZXJ2ZWQgZm9yIHRoZSBsb2NhdG9yL2lk IHNwbGl0IHByb3RvY29scy4gSSB0aGluayBhbGwgb3ZlcmxheSBwcm90b2NvbHMgY2FuIG1ha2Ug dXNlIG9mIGEgKm5ldHdvcmstbGF5ZXIqIGJhc2VkIGRhdGFiYXNlLiBBbmQgc2luY2Ugc2VjdXJp dHkgaGFzIHRvIGJlIGEgbnVtYmVyIDEgcHJpb3JpdHkgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnQsIHdlIGhhdmUgdG8g Y3JlYXRlIHNvbWV0aGluZyBuZXcuDQo+IA0KPiBXaGVuIEkgc2F5IOKAnG5ld+KAnSwgSSBtZWFu IHRvIGNyZWF0ZSBhbiBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBpbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZSB3aGVyZSB0aGUgbG9jL2lk IHNwbGl0IGNvbnRyb2wgcHJvdG9jb2xzIGNhbiBiZSBkZXBsb3llZCBhdCBzY2FsZS4gV2UgaGF2 ZSBhbiBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBsZXZlbCBkYXRhYmFzZSwgaXQgaXMgY2FsbGVkIEROUy4gV2UgbmVl ZCBhIG5ldHdvcmstbGF5ZXIgZGF0YWJhc2UuDQo+IA0KPiBJIHRoaW5rIHBlb3BsZSBzaG91bGQg dmlldyBHUklEcyBub3QgZm9yIHdoYXQgdXNlLWNhc2VzIGl0IGNhbiBwcm92aWRlLCBidXQgaG93 IHRvIGRlZmluZSBhIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgc3RyYXRlZ3kgZm9yIGEgbmV0d29yay1sYXllciBkYXRh YmFzZSBpbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZSBmb3IgdGhlIHVzZS1jYXNlcyB0aGF0IExJU1AsIEhJUCwgSUxB LCBhbmQgSUxOUCAqYWxyZWFkeSogcHJvdmlkZS4NCj4gDQo+IERpbm8NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBJZGVhcyBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gSWRlYXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9pZGVhcw0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBJZGVhcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gSWRlYXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZGVhcw0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KSWRlYXMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpJ ZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZGVh cw0K From Parviz.Yegani@huawei.com Fri Jul 21 03:43:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8348912EB5D for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:43:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnfSyCtnd_id for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 598B9127337 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DRR88409; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:43:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:43:33 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:43:22 -0700 From: Parviz Yegani To: "Ideas@ietf.org" CC: Parviz Yegani Thread-Topic: This week's IDEAS BOF session Thread-Index: AdMCDinnVOIK9fnGTxOV2ETII2IXvQ== Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:43:22 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.247.73] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E360DEA4EB89C849AB315545F0663F43021EC196SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.5971DAD6.0135, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 81fa8f170f2205c480fb33d35d508346 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] This week's IDEAS BOF session X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:46:15 -0000 --_000_E360DEA4EB89C849AB315545F0663F43021EC196SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, This is to clarify the comments I made during the IDEAS BOF session on Wedn= esday. After talking to many people and having a chance to read through th= e problem statement draft and other related material I fully support the fo= rmation of the IDEAS WG. The goal of this working group should be primarily= to focus on formulating a framework to provide ID-based services for all I= D/LOC separation protocols. Numerous use cases are documented that are used= to clearly demonstrate the value of the protocols specified by this WG. Ag= ain, formation of such WG is highly recommended. Thank you Parviz ------- PARVIZ YEGANI, PhD Chief SDN/NFV Architect CTO Office, Cloud Network Solutions FutureWei Technologies, Inc. 2330 Central Express Way Santa Clara, CA 95050, USA Phone: +1 (408) 330-4668 Mobile : +1 (408) 759-1973 Parviz.Yegani@huawei.com --_000_E360DEA4EB89C849AB315545F0663F43021EC196SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

This is to clarify the comments I made during the ID= EAS BOF session on Wednesday.  After talking to many people and having= a chance to read through the problem statement draft and other related mat= erial I fully support the formation of the IDEAS WG. The goal of this working group should be primarily to focus = on formulating a framework to provide ID-based services for all ID/LOC sepa= ration protocols. Numerous use cases are documented that are used to clearl= y demonstrate the value of the protocols specified by this WG. Again, formation of such WG is highly recommended.

 

Thank you

Parviz

 

-------

PARVIZ YEGANI, PhD =
Chief SDN/NFV Architect

CTO Office, Cloud Network S= olutions

 

FutureWei Technologies, = Inc.

2330 Central Express Way

Santa Clara, CA 95050, USA<= o:p>

Phone: +1 (408) 33= 0-4668

Mobile : +1 (408) 759-1= 973

Parviz.Yegani@huawei.com=

 

 

 

--_000_E360DEA4EB89C849AB315545F0663F43021EC196SJCEML703CHMchi_-- From nobody Fri Jul 21 18:13:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E481A126B71 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:12:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5sVsBPfV8nI for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x244.google.com (mail-pg0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A36E1242F7 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x244.google.com with SMTP id v190so6521262pgv.1 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:12:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=jcOuN79BSVBVrE/VhbSwhv4anoJj8ljl9Q7+SLZ2bIs=; b=vUGxy1iWppugY78gwk/WFZS5ECt/WJZuEtxtCzEX+CmX8GZiauVIWHTDN1X6H5loJw 3TmahJZViOKI8auWr8EqC75QmsDVNJQiJ4cJ/MzQ+iAiIiU/cFyHNZ8VrA/aFxeHiGzv GpeHEof8p58Dq8WDiZk0F/8NfRoqj4ZJG97nTphngMLvFcn6FunTxRnbOFtFvXXD5PB6 GO94uIhFHOr8Kt1rW5oSOqUnkJjIm1qLYaeiyGRQ7h+5IXoBtys7zA/j966KUuiRlC7t tQLQhFEKO5sHfgBFqxGS8iGuPfzyc479p8/dt0Pn8b0At6Goo8kvKPdgFSKLMiAsg3zJ WXFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=jcOuN79BSVBVrE/VhbSwhv4anoJj8ljl9Q7+SLZ2bIs=; b=gEQqA22sUAO8At0rfdXHwBIwvIApx8WgfdLycvCLPBzXeBc0UCgQNNd0k5E5nRxcrV duUDv1exivm5e5VRIc9vpiga8f6qkxL69xcSxu+2IFJU7grmbPqFXC9vLC/lezCRTYvE oDi9+9vxyNvGwDfENlNaFzqL/9Y3yy816efnY5LBXQFVCQf1p2cbuAzRDq5L5R0WYRJT /DzuCO2koljiaWjaE8VWDbOPvyKaPss6LhzLIf8jwId5Xbt0E6TOU9W41IDXykeEwjVw 2VH+UKGQBUG6agsNk5ArLn++Yf5K+lWehX/a/ZNB6miLkoekh7tVZKOC05BD5T1CHaM2 ArAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1104xeT7ZTbiqaogo55+KWLFVU1D8sLiCZVJvLaKmRBvz9V0lJkq 5xsMQdO8aUfl8ilmmvo= X-Received: by 10.84.217.19 with SMTP id o19mr10181082pli.394.1500685977642; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:380:465f:c7d0:8d29:f94:1ad:7600? ([2600:380:465f:c7d0:8d29:f94:1ad:7600]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24sm11289816pfk.43.2017.07.21.18.12.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dino Farinacci Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:04:52 +0100 Message-Id: <91D46758-C591-45E0-8A87-213137758934@gmail.com> References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: Hesham ElBakoury X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14F89) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 01:12:59 -0000 > Are you suggesting to use LISP/HIP control protocol for IDEAS ? Well as a mature candidate, it should be considered. Dino From nobody Tue Jul 25 06:34:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7978D129A96 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2rpuFnLE9em5 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DF68131CBB for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C586214A; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:34:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id M2pwdYqqcHWj; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F3ED621BB; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:33:47 -0400 (EDT) To: Jungha Hong , Dino Farinacci , "ideas@ietf.org" References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:33:46 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8306814C405C91CF455A69C0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:34:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8306814C405C91CF455A69C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am just starting to go through the mails since the BOF. It will take a couple days, so please bare wtih me here. I both agree and disagree. There are three values we need to 'track' and have access via any of them: Identity: This is a higher layer value that generally tags an Entity but is not what is used in actual communication protocols. It is a label that generally defines the Entity and MAY be human understandable, or only machine understandable. There needs to be extensive policy control on who/what can see an Identity and gain access to the Identities meta data (like what services provided). Identifier: This is a communications label. It needs to be represented in a manner that aligns with communication protocols, but is not of necessity a part of every communication packet. Tight format is desirable and something that is 'well understood' by applications in working with communications. This is why I view a major Identifier format that of an IPv6 address. There is still policy around Identifier; primarily rights to query and Identifier and learn its Location, Identity, and meta data. Expect to see Identifiers embedded in protocols like FTP PASV and HTTP Redirects; thus the need of the Identifer to Identity and Location lookup. This retrieval should be quick, but not needs to be network speed. Location: This is an IP address of an Entity's Interface. It is how packets physically reach an Entity. the Identifier/Location is the portion that operates at the network and needs network performance optimization. But there can still be policy here; just because a packet is trageted to an Identifier does not give the Source automatic privileges to its Location. The lookup is fast, but gated. The Location/Identity pairing is again informational, not directly used in communications. All told, all query types need to work well and be policy gated. The Identifier to Location needs to be fast. All needs security and policy. We will get to working on the requirements for the system and well delineating the roles and such. Bob On 07/20/2017 11:10 AM, Jungha Hong wrote: > > Dear all, > > > I attended in the BoF yesterday and I agree with the Dino's comment > that we need a network-layer database. > > > Actually, in my project, we have desined and implemented a mapping > system between ID and locator(s) especially for supporting a flat > typed ID efficiently. It was designed as a network-layer database. > > > Thanks, > > Jungha Hong > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *보낸 사람 : *"Dino Farinacci" > *보낸 날짜 : *2017-07-20 18:14:24 ( +09:00 ) > *받는 사람 : *ideas@ietf.org > *참조 : * > *제목 : *[Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP > > As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the IDEAs > effort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I think > all overlay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based > database. And since security has to be a number 1 priority > requirement, we have to create something new. > > When I say “new”, I mean to create an operational infrastructure where > the loc/id split control protocols can be deployed at scale. We have > an application level database, it is called DNS. We need a > network-layer database. > > I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can > provide, but how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer > database infrastructure for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and > ILNP *already* provide. > > Dino > > _______________________________________________ > > Ideas mailing list > > Ideas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --------------8306814C405C91CF455A69C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am just starting to go through the mails since the BOF.  It will take a couple days, so please bare wtih me here.

I both agree and disagree.

There are three values we need to 'track' and have access via any of them:

Identity:  This is a higher layer value that generally tags an Entity but is not what is used in actual communication protocols.  It is a label that generally defines the Entity and MAY be human understandable, or only machine understandable.  There needs to be extensive policy control on who/what can see an Identity and gain access to the Identities meta data (like what services provided).

Identifier:  This is a communications label.  It needs to be represented in a manner that aligns with communication protocols, but is not of necessity a part of every communication packet.  Tight format is desirable and something that is 'well understood' by applications in working with communications.  This is why I view a major Identifier format that of an IPv6 address.  There is still policy around Identifier; primarily rights to query and Identifier and learn its Location, Identity, and meta data.  Expect to see Identifiers embedded in protocols like FTP PASV and HTTP Redirects; thus the need of the Identifer to Identity and Location lookup.  This retrieval should be quick, but not needs to be network speed.

Location:  This is an IP address of an Entity's Interface.  It is how packets physically reach an Entity.  the Identifier/Location is the portion that operates at the network and needs network performance optimization.  But there can still be policy here; just because a packet is trageted to an Identifier does not give the Source automatic privileges to its Location.  The lookup is fast, but gated.  The Location/Identity pairing is again informational, not directly used in communications.

All told, all query types need to work well and be policy gated.  The Identifier to Location needs to be fast.  All needs security and policy.

We will get to working on the requirements for the system and well delineating the roles and such.

Bob


On 07/20/2017 11:10 AM, Jungha Hong wrote:

Dear all,


I attended in the BoF yesterday and I agree with the Dino's comment that we need a network-layer database.


Actually, in my project, we have desined and implemented a mapping system between ID and locator(s) especially for supporting a flat typed ID efficiently. It was designed as a network-layer database.


Thanks,

Jungha Hong


 

 

보낸 사람 : "Dino Farinacci" <farinacci@gmail.com>
보낸 날짜 : 2017-07-20 18:14:24 ( +09:00 )
참조 :
제목 : [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP

 

As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the IDEAs effort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I think all overlay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based database. And since security has to be a number 1 priority requirement, we have to create something new.

 

 

When I say “new”, I mean to create an operational infrastructure where the loc/id split control protocols can be deployed at scale. We have an application level database, it is called DNS. We need a network-layer database.

 

 

I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can provide, but how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer database infrastructure for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and ILNP *already* provide.

 

 

Dino

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

 

Ideas mailing list

 

Ideas@ietf.org

 

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 



_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--------------8306814C405C91CF455A69C0-- From nobody Tue Jul 25 06:40:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15266127869 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eZzVITvV63V4 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38F3A131C33 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431866215F; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:40:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id T+s020OeIdRf; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 351396215B; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:40:20 -0400 (EDT) To: Erik Nordmark , Dino Farinacci , Erik Nordmark References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> Cc: ideas@ietf.org From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <64c23c4e-b8c9-288c-d733-54a940e838b7@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:40:19 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:40:30 -0000 On 07/20/2017 11:12 AM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > On 07/20/2017 10:50 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >>> I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a >>> longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the >>> clear identifiers. >>> >>> But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection >>> identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way >>> means that the transport sessions would break. >>> >>> Seems like a tricky tradeoff. >> >> I believe we can have it both ways. >> >> If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport >> connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs >> stay assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the >> encapsulated packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You can >> get privacy either way. > > Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived > connections and short-lived connections using different identifiers > that might provide the ability for an observer to link the different > identifiers together. A resourceful observer with the ability to > observe on many links and networks than then build up the collection > of identifiers which have been used by a single identity. > (Unlinkability is defined in rfc6973) > > One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and > other things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same > time as the locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a > new network/link, but that will break the long-lived connections that > are active when the change happens. > > Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting > everything but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only the > locators are needed for packet delivery. Here be lots of dragons. The performance cost of such an approach needs careful consideration. I am very interested in long-lived associations. The privacy implications of these are important and a way to link and change them will need to be worked out. In part, this is orthogonal to the basic mapping requirements. For example, I can define a chain of Identifiers such that the Endpoints understand the relationship, but not the eavesdropper. I prefer this to total encryption. Total encryption means total decryption before any decisions; a wonder target to attack. This is yet another reason to rethink HIT construction. I will attempt to do this in the next version of the Hierarchical HIT draft. Bob > > Erik > >> >> Also note, in LISP, one can use ephemeral-EIDs and still get >> crypto-based authentication using a crypto-EID for the sole purpose >> of sending Map-Registers and Map-Requests and not for transport >> connections. >> >> Dino >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Tue Jul 25 08:57:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78220131D0E for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5dN4MCj5poiE for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB05127058 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v105so90722501wrb.0 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AiHgsNA0xfU9qjc21NcFrbnzKb+M1RiMedAc4djnvqQ=; b=tyFnDg7j9nJsNeKIktvAda7NGqhX3rNhsAeHLuXgKdsIcGu6U/RKXYMQt/Mfpq2ucg rskYKw7+F2X319fbSwXTNlNIOurFK2oi7rQjObzBJl3uvuYupLHMNvY9YC62DKcJtg+2 YsnGGoaVhNMcZGaL7/N3jGFt4O0HPqUrhRMpN5ZFIy4fulpFCzilzcH/uSlJOXiOXQaG lJykRtz1lI9z52H902SbcVwNAhPoAA9RnenzDB3V40daEk1++n6O0u6A6fS/LHkFytjv xLMpkEvTB0V4h4RhVwoZrY06ive9tNMThbIqdiexA2BfyJZyQGa6zrF2CSkpIEIOq+GU f1jQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AiHgsNA0xfU9qjc21NcFrbnzKb+M1RiMedAc4djnvqQ=; b=HBj9RsCY4TksOqdELOb9OHYQmbyzEZ/fOHWjeVDqt3om7sosSUWmAkPhSJmbpFBPPT /YtubAULhJYg9GRB4EKrbIaEcZDQjFqLzIKrRT157uXF8fznCQfqq8n5vYN0UVV0gBzD 91nmP0Lg6q3L5G990OlmzNd2ULG03BuWSeWPJrrHBe5n/8GJqFoR9Y1YsS2EruBmuFJF afVdOSTLWhu5UBHL5mxhXZnzHa7UW/1SdcWR4CTiBEECk8chLlCj6LhGxMGBMp0Bxi+f GwTfDMSY74GjcvYl9OkicbXtbl5/pdhl1XTefSZQv/o2FtzmDJSea+K/oR0W+BRhGhra st+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113IxZUBJQ/CIdSdXhpv+vX33HoMh665JspvdscK6VxXWuaxwd3t wxoRLau+0BllMAEPJqXO5yDUOeC6sA== X-Received: by 10.223.138.232 with SMTP id z37mr19630367wrz.66.1500998216637; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:56:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.10 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:56:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:56:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz Cc: Jungha Hong , Dino Farinacci , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141247e82e33305552661e8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:57:01 -0000 --001a1141247e82e33305552661e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > I am just starting to go through the mails since the BOF. It will take a > couple days, so please bare wtih me here. > > I will be going through a similar exercise this week to ensure we have much of the BOF information on the list. > I both agree and disagree. > > There are three values we need to 'track' and have access via any of them= : > > Identity: This is a higher layer value that generally tags an Entity but > is not what is used in actual communication protocols. It is a label tha= t > generally defines the Entity and MAY be human understandable, or only > machine understandable. There needs to be extensive policy control on > who/what can see an Identity and gain access to the Identities meta data > (like what services provided). > I would also add that this information should be protected if exchanged on the wire. > > Identifier: This is a communications label. It needs to be represented > in a manner that aligns with communication protocols, but is not of > necessity a part of every communication packet. Tight format is desirabl= e > and something that is 'well understood' by applications in working with > communications. This is why I view a major Identifier format that of an > IPv6 address. There is still policy around Identifier; primarily rights = to > query and Identifier and learn its Location, Identity, and meta data. > Expect to see Identifiers embedded in protocols like FTP PASV and HTTP > Redirects; thus the need of the Identifer to Identity and Location lookup= . > This retrieval should be quick, but not needs to be network speed. > > It should be clarified that it is possible to have policies and metadata tied to identity and identifier independently. We have not specifically discussed whether the identity policy applies or is inherited naturally to all its identifiers but that is a thought. > Location: This is an IP address of an Entity's Interface. It is how > packets physically reach an Entity. the Identifier/Location is the porti= on > that operates at the network and needs network performance optimization. > But there can still be policy here; just because a packet is trageted to = an > Identifier does not give the Source automatic privileges to its Location. > The lookup is fast, but gated. The Location/Identity pairing is again > informational, not directly used in communications. > > Isn't this policy just plain IP policies as we know it today? Would be preferable tp distinguish this from policy per se by calling it access control on look up .. There is a subtle difference between policy and the way lookup are gated or respond "unknown". It would be wise if the response is indistinguishable from "does not exist". > All told, all query types need to work well and be policy gated. The > Identifier to Location needs to be fast. All needs security and policy. > > agree > We will get to working on the requirements for the system and well > delineating the roles and such. > > Have you checked the requirements document yet? Thanks Padma > Bob > > > > On 07/20/2017 11:10 AM, Jungha Hong wrote: > > Dear all, > > > I attended in the BoF yesterday and I agree with the Dino's comment that > we need a network-layer database. > > > Actually, in my project, we have desined and implemented a mapping system > between ID and locator(s) especially for supporting a flat typed ID > efficiently. It was designed as a network-layer database. > > > Thanks, > > Jungha Hong > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : *"Dino Farinacci" > *=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EB=82=A0=EC=A7=9C : *2017-07-20 18:14:24 ( +09:00 ) > *=EB=B0=9B=EB=8A=94 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : *ideas@ietf.org = > *=EC=B0=B8=EC=A1=B0 : * > *=EC=A0=9C=EB=AA=A9 : *[Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and= HIP > > > As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the IDEAs > effort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I think al= l > overlay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based database. And > since security has to be a number 1 priority requirement, we have to crea= te > something new. > > > > > When I say =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D, I mean to create an operational infrast= ructure where the > loc/id split control protocols can be deployed at scale. We have an > application level database, it is called DNS. We need a network-layer > database. > > > > > I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can provide, > but how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer database > infrastructure for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and ILNP *already* > provide. > > > > > Dino > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ideas mailing list > > > Ideas@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing listIdeas@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ide= as > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a1141247e82e33305552661e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert



On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Rob= ert Moskowitz <rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
I am just starting to go through the mails since the BOF.=C2=A0 It will take a couple days, so please bare wtih me here.


I will be going through a si= milar exercise this week to ensure we have much of the BOF information on t= he list.
=C2=A0
I both agree and disagree.

There are three values we need to 'track' and have access via a= ny of them:

Identity:=C2=A0 This is a higher layer value that generally tags an Entity but is not what is used in actual communication protocols.=C2=A0 It is a label that generally defines the Entity and MAY be human understandable, or only machine understandable.=C2=A0 There needs to be extensive policy control on who/what can see an Identity and gain access to the Identities meta data (like what services provided).

I would also add that this information= should be protected if exchanged on the wire.
=C2=A0

Identifier:=C2=A0 This is a communications label.=C2=A0 It needs to be represented in a manner that aligns with communication protocols, but is not of necessity a part of every communication packet.=C2=A0 Tig= ht format is desirable and something that is 'well understood' by applications in working with communications.=C2=A0 This is why I view a major Identifier format that of an IPv6 address.=C2=A0 There is still policy around Identifier; primarily rights to query and Identifier and learn its Location, Identity, and meta data.=C2=A0 Expect to see Identifiers embedded in protocols like FTP PASV and HTTP Redirects; thus the need of the Identifer to Identity and Location lookup.=C2=A0 This retrieval should be quick, but not needs to be network speed.


It should be clarified that = it is possible to have policies and metadata tied to identity and identifie= r independently. We have not specifically discussed whether the identity po= licy applies or is inherited naturally to all its identifiers but that is a= thought.

=C2=A0
Location:=C2=A0 This is an IP address of an Entity's Interface.=C2= =A0 It is how packets physically reach an Entity.=C2=A0 the Identifier/Location i= s the portion that operates at the network and needs network performance optimization.=C2=A0 But there can still be policy here; jus= t because a packet is trageted to an Identifier does not give the Source automatic privileges to its Location.=C2=A0 The lookup is fast, but gated.=C2=A0 The Location/Identity pairing is again informational, not directly used in communications.


Isn't this policy just p= lain IP policies as we know it today?

Would be pre= ferable tp distinguish this from policy per se by calling it access control= on look up .. There is a subtle difference between policy and the way look= up are gated or respond "unknown". It would be wise if the respon= se is indistinguishable from "does not exist".

=C2=A0
All told, all query types need to work well and be policy gated.=C2=A0 The Identifier to Location needs to be fast.=C2=A0 All needs security a= nd policy.


agree
=C2=A0
=
We will get to working on the requirements for the system and well delineating the roles and such.


Have you checked the require= ments document yet?=C2=A0

Thanks
Padma= =C2=A0
Bob



On 07/20/2017 11:1= 0 AM, Jungha Hong wrote:
=20

Dear all,


I attended in the=C2=A0BoF yesterday and=C2=A0I=C2=A0agree with the=C2= =A0Dino's comment that we need a network-layer database.


Actually, in my project, we=C2=A0have desined and implemented a mappi= ng system between ID and locator(s) especially for supporting a=C2=A0flat typed ID efficiently. It was designe= d as a network-layer database.


Thanks,

Jungha Hong


=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : "D= ino Farinacci" <farinacci@gmail.c= om>
=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EB=82=A0=EC=A7=9C : 2017-07= -20 18:14:24 ( +09:00 )
=EB=B0=9B=EB=8A=94 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : ideas@ietf.org <ideas@ietf.org>=
=EC=B0=B8=EC=A1=B0 :
=EC=A0=9C=EB=AA=A9 : [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessa= ry use-case for LISP and HIP

=C2=A0

As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the IDEAs effort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I think all overlay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based database. And since security has to be a number 1 priority requirement, we have to create something new.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

When I say =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D, I mean to create an opera= tional infrastructure where the loc/id split control protocols can be deployed at scale. We have an application level database, it is called DNS. We need a network-layer database.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can provide, but how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer database infrastructure for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and ILNP *already* provide.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Dino

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________

=C2=A0

Ideas mailing list

=C2=A0

Ideas@ietf.org

=C2=A0

https:= //www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/ideas


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a1141247e82e33305552661e8-- From nobody Tue Jul 25 10:16:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682A1131E2A for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YWm6YPuC64iD for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x231.google.com (mail-pg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C340131E25 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id y129so72694578pgy.4 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GJV2o4Y1gMnUDYyFqlse1YNBCUKkhESt2bYJ/2LbXIA=; b=BoXuRf2uxGreTBBZpJUWudqkiX/VSDt/25BoRskLCoH+MRMH4VJX6flnrlcJQVs6CE pW39TcjzjPQ97Rrinsio0BiWFmTCv9UZe+D40nsCboZ7El5Emh7gFwIPN3D7KxgS/xOV MbdnRJ3lvIEN1Hq6OR41sH6AgU3J29ozFWDJ5dF73sKOn9rfVBGExr4slAHVr0MIoYzY ubdS7Op1EbEQcFucq+qkjjmLjppc3VjCWXzTWJ+OoL3nim4/N6mliCVkhfVZJyP4EOEL U6os4gar8Z0NU4fNZJuVccoWM3bG+gPac1LIrDjypdm1jiyohkg868RRl1f8C3jGoCkF aGpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GJV2o4Y1gMnUDYyFqlse1YNBCUKkhESt2bYJ/2LbXIA=; b=Z5RQOi1IilxP1NYQYtbnWdzyeMnVx2hIbiXPzhCYjhH5sXzZYgdi7E4/4cYpb3o3T2 +KKPhHAk6KRr4sK+lNMRGXL7IhLSsprIfsxg44vKBQTOAuHN+kgwxUnJvyx84AxSfeWK LJ9jktDprEq/pt5MEXWCuNED9iSwZuLcH68heKw3y6jo66QX5nsMFNLRjbj4X3ZDYxn5 XSNkFdtpd0LEl4YBvAY8mBCtxcbAhprHOh8cS38QKqUpfKsUi7S6c3WtlRAwl80ryU0e uHjh5ZdoFPodSTlx8I3x6W/544xtoTfb/qT9vxBZiqSlk/nhyajF2ViSMgBT1Kha4vGP VuiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110gZizQshEcKsqgEaTkvOcoq1Q4xp15TlZBW8jL4Sauu1E/hVHb x5P00EvOw1+82g== X-Received: by 10.99.3.149 with SMTP id 143mr10468098pgd.99.1501002998713; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.197.31.157] (173-11-119-245-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [173.11.119.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm4653807pgo.39.2017.07.25.10.16.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:16:37 -0700 Cc: Jungha Hong , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <09C20ABD-4367-49B9-9B94-E8FADD022B66@gmail.com> To: Robert Moskowitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP and HIP X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:16:41 -0000 Bob, I can go along with your definition but with one reservation, the = statement "but is not of necessity a part of every communication = packet=E2=80=9D. I think the language may be too strong.=20 Because if this is not necessary then what would go in an IPv6 header, = regardless if there were one or two headers in the packet (i.e. = considering no encap versus encap, respectively).=20 You might be saying that if locators are placed in the IPv6 header, then = what identifies a transport connection can be something in the transport = header (TP4 had T-selector, HIP could use API, etc). Is this what your = getitng at? Dino > On Jul 25, 2017, at 6:33 AM, Robert Moskowitz = wrote: >=20 > I am just starting to go through the mails since the BOF. It will = take a couple days, so please bare wtih me here. >=20 > I both agree and disagree. >=20 > There are three values we need to 'track' and have access via any of = them: >=20 > Identity: This is a higher layer value that generally tags an Entity = but is not what is used in actual communication protocols. It is a = label that generally defines the Entity and MAY be human understandable, = or only machine understandable. There needs to be extensive policy = control on who/what can see an Identity and gain access to the = Identities meta data (like what services provided). >=20 > Identifier: This is a communications label. It needs to be = represented in a manner that aligns with communication protocols, but is = not of necessity a part of every communication packet. Tight format is = desirable and something that is 'well understood' by applications in = working with communications. This is why I view a major Identifier = format that of an IPv6 address. There is still policy around = Identifier; primarily rights to query and Identifier and learn its = Location, Identity, and meta data. Expect to see Identifiers embedded = in protocols like FTP PASV and HTTP Redirects; thus the need of the = Identifer to Identity and Location lookup. This retrieval should be = quick, but not needs to be network speed. >=20 > Location: This is an IP address of an Entity's Interface. It is how = packets physically reach an Entity. the Identifier/Location is the = portion that operates at the network and needs network performance = optimization. But there can still be policy here; just because a packet = is trageted to an Identifier does not give the Source automatic = privileges to its Location. The lookup is fast, but gated. The = Location/Identity pairing is again informational, not directly used in = communications. >=20 > All told, all query types need to work well and be policy gated. The = Identifier to Location needs to be fast. All needs security and policy. >=20 > We will get to working on the requirements for the system and well = delineating the roles and such. >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 > On 07/20/2017 11:10 AM, Jungha Hong wrote: >> Dear all, >>=20 >> I attended in the BoF yesterday and I agree with the Dino's comment = that we need a network-layer database. >>=20 >> Actually, in my project, we have desined and implemented a mapping = system between ID and locator(s) especially for supporting a flat typed = ID efficiently. It was designed as a network-layer database. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Jungha Hong >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : "Dino Farinacci" = >> =EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EB=82=A0=EC=A7=9C : 2017-07-20 18:14:24 ( +09:00 = ) >> =EB=B0=9B=EB=8A=94 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : ideas@ietf.org = >> =EC=B0=B8=EC=A1=B0 : >> =EC=A0=9C=EB=AA=A9 : [Ideas] GRIDs is a necessary use-case for LISP = and HIP >> =20 >> As one of the original coauthors of LISP, I just want to say the = IDEAs effort will be well served for the locator/id split protocols. I = think all overlay protocols can make use of a *network-layer* based = database. And since security has to be a number 1 priority requirement, = we have to create something new. >> =20 >> =20 >> When I say =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D, I mean to create an operational = infrastructure where the loc/id split control protocols can be deployed = at scale. We have an application level database, it is called DNS. We = need a network-layer database. >> =20 >> =20 >> I think people should view GRIDs not for what use-cases it can = provide, but how to define a deployment strategy for a network-layer = database infrastructure for the use-cases that LISP, HIP, ILA, and ILNP = *already* provide. >> =20 >> =20 >> Dino >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> =20 >> Ideas mailing list >> =20 >> Ideas@ietf.org >> =20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >>=20 >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 25 10:25:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85915131CB1 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYJ5TpsZ3WQX for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x242.google.com (mail-pf0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 316AF129AC4 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x242.google.com with SMTP id 1so5283008pfi.3 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=IvRMcC4JRw+yS5lYhQnD0qLaSvLksaq2EtLwSzQtOzA=; b=vC1REvZP3d1WTy6F9a/DbpmCMktJP8YOKsWGTwtdNr5ee19kEcb4DN3eVmGdXExlp1 D3BVqE3LK0xRCssndJylN7qiOc1sqi+sYcbmzYRC33cMx1rI9xeEJ+RbCA/nzxQe6Ksn kkALhi0oNIuMgqObRqyBnd6EqhpfpvjXgq6MBFCJNX/s8aVC2ljEO8UOdEd7gI0KbDey oLPf/Dz5h0PpkCyJqTTqcP2ChrMBO/DTFIHCf5iIVnjO9vzFdEcAgHJsBBY66FuIqn53 Y3zMqHby/kVlqEP5m0tMJpUcE5zvlnosy43or7jLLcvXwF3X+BDSHDD1aqEIoTgIB52g aP5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=IvRMcC4JRw+yS5lYhQnD0qLaSvLksaq2EtLwSzQtOzA=; b=oJflHk++ux3IZtL3gF9WTurBBjv5SGhcE07+hpPaug2dnIQb7HSa2VfEMLOIsub56J yXwmCdTYCJkc7CxWkiDrzCP+br5xJDyMW5YR5CMLTFnVR7C7bUtmATaWXFfQSHM2Hb2z KwR1m2/l+uSlcFo8kdg5jKHktYM6OuFjpi6nMFP4tpWlXd7Jc+jUNt21MyLD7tqEfODE OX6hj2UvCA/5F1FnQAYhmGoyHH905kQxfpe0OEnB6cgZY1kTTLR0pDGEcRDjiTqloO5f qLhEeEJcoG/VWX0etAVuNo78SoXDKz5UPUzwWAtd7JeEEltoniiz9EiFO1hwwG4l96aY mtvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110z/w9chsJ+uYnTbrO9cz2tqujRFUkdJchb3f3s813ZTqhD732y rCBfjZ/s/L1Bsw== X-Received: by 10.84.171.132 with SMTP id l4mr22679299plb.175.1501003502884; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.197.31.157] (173-11-119-245-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [173.11.119.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm23574940pfi.115.2017.07.25.10.25.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <64c23c4e-b8c9-288c-d733-54a940e838b7@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:25:00 -0700 Cc: Erik Nordmark , Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> <64c23c4e-b8c9-288c-d733-54a940e838b7@htt-consult.com> To: Robert Moskowitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:25:05 -0000 > I am very interested in long-lived associations. =20 But with possible re-key occuring during the association? > For example, I can define a chain of Identifiers such that the = Endpoints understand the relationship, but not the eavesdropper. I = prefer this to total encryption. =20 This is interesting Bob. Is the chain stored but not accessible by = anyone but the endpoints that use the chain? Does the chain need to be = encrypted while it is at rest? > Total encryption means total decryption before any decisions; a wonder = target to attack. Very good point. Dino From nobody Tue Jul 25 11:23:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F6C131463 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yDjTa27LI9Ip for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com (mail-wm0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B75D8129B2A for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c184so59316178wmd.0 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=alC5tYjVwLU/+/GxrikNvMcfRy0PxephjjNOoXsQSzw=; b=dGNzFwYGIkChgnGDqCq3TblT4VkX7GMeVhKi5qhSQ1jZ7JSS4XGG8j8DNXLVmaC7uJ JO7rkslB58MKoFCrQS8OUYcgKbUnYWwvMqOR/FRHL/FnuS00tYy6kpZT27gXs8uVO8bp 1g5nP5nLFsuuES04/scg4qaP4m4/cXDgwhuEarUufD+EtxNcyuPneYyZENT/yiu8kT4D 8THz17hR3FNBndYAmIxO0/Ujp20/3WgKFUNCa4njTTCxTTwTfkd52yB90RwJQ9MTWzY+ 6SLnR5TenT6RmcaxNrZysvt04nUSbGBGzsQh2DsFADv9mrIbUgh5gCyMaZwgrKs5Jy+3 jFag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=alC5tYjVwLU/+/GxrikNvMcfRy0PxephjjNOoXsQSzw=; b=I6d5iB4dachI4jeXc/Q4D7gEgC64SVQJwzcBY2eGxOqHXi9dP0YHL00117pICIsLAv z7709nPdi9p+4rOsuFM3EWwEqBKZpt+DaKWl9rSCDVH1IcFMIF7ozHeJ+rIHBvZvtOJb kILMtKM6Iqc7KHHl+BMFUqaN+meTo3AOHf8l/+uedQ1vYlFl1M+6RBcIqxgq3L6obclx hDVg8D8TaVFzJZO1E3ZAbrK8MjoAuFG8o+YdAUQKcq2GhEokDalInJ3Bz7jdKq6uDEI/ DGU42uhvUiY/7A5rb1ctk6223l7z/9ULFowIFanDbQYlpJ4wCgR5q8z/AKED+awhY+p0 NmNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111cktwgBpC0QR3XP1A+hawxj6+kpn+yTNtnzL8HXO2BOOvViIsq 9W/42krytOC5zqffFPnZKI+9/Zdg2gIn X-Received: by 10.28.109.146 with SMTP id b18mr9127918wmi.34.1501007024114; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.128.66 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <64c23c4e-b8c9-288c-d733-54a940e838b7@htt-consult.com> References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> <64c23c4e-b8c9-288c-d733-54a940e838b7@htt-consult.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 11:23:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz Cc: Erik Nordmark , Dino Farinacci , Erik Nordmark , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 18:23:48 -0000 On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > > > On 07/20/2017 11:12 AM, Erik Nordmark wrote: >> >> On 07/20/2017 10:50 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >>>> >>>> I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a >>>> longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the clear >>>> identifiers. >>>> >>>> But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection >>>> identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable way means >>>> that the transport sessions would break. >>>> >>>> Seems like a tricky tradeoff. >>> >>> >>> I believe we can have it both ways. >>> >>> If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport >>> connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs stay >>> assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the encapsulated >>> packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You can get privacy either >>> way. >> >> >> Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived connections >> and short-lived connections using different identifiers that might provide >> the ability for an observer to link the different identifiers together. A >> resourceful observer with the ability to observe on many links and networks >> than then build up the collection of identifiers which have been used by a >> single identity. (Unlinkability is defined in rfc6973) >> >> One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and other >> things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same time as the >> locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a new network/link, >> but that will break the long-lived connections that are active when the >> change happens. >> >> Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting everything >> but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only the locators are >> needed for packet delivery. > > > Here be lots of dragons. The performance cost of such an approach needs > careful consideration. > > I am very interested in long-lived associations. The privacy implications > of these are important and a way to link and change them will need to be > worked out. In part, this is orthogonal to the basic mapping requirements. > For example, I can define a chain of Identifiers such that the Endpoints > understand the relationship, but not the eavesdropper. I prefer this to But, again that doesn't solve the problem that there could be things in plain text that are easily used to match packets to the same flow even if IP addresses change on every packet for the flow. If the goal is to prevent associations between packets for long lived flows then all the methods by which and attacker could make associations need to be considered. If we don't consider that then all the work to dynamically change addresses for a flow could be for naught. Tom From nobody Tue Jul 25 17:55:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C19F132190 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:55:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98WFBlbwlVVb for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F08F13218E for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 17:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLH51037; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:54:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.142) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 01:54:56 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.184]) by dggemi404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 08:54:49 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Tom Herbert , Robert Moskowitz CC: Erik Nordmark , "ideas@ietf.org" , Erik Nordmark , Dino Farinacci Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity Thread-Index: AQHTASrPbmmgv53xoECk50q5dEY1b6Jb4iaAgABqfgCAB8IGgIAATy6AgADzCiA= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:54:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3e7d1bda-0847-36d6-b6e2-a98de1f8bf04@acm.org> <747af64c-87e9-f338-1448-3f461c6e8e21@sonic.net> <64c23c4e-b8c9-288c-d733-54a940e838b7@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.5977E861.0078, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 50d608f62ee62fccf5ec10041abf919e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:55:03 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:24 AM > To: Robert Moskowitz > Cc: Erik Nordmark ; ideas@ietf.org; Erik Nordmark > ; Dino Farinacci > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Identity/identifier and session continuity >=20 > On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Robert Moskowitz > wrote: > > > > > > On 07/20/2017 11:12 AM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > >> > >> On 07/20/2017 10:50 AM, Dino Farinacci wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I understand the desire to provide good privacy by decoupling a > >>>> longer-lived identity from shorter lived and potentially in the > >>>> clear identifiers. > >>>> > >>>> But since the identifiers are used for the transport connection > >>>> identification, changing the identifier(s) used in an unlinkable > >>>> way means that the transport sessions would break. > >>>> > >>>> Seems like a tricky tradeoff. > >>> > >>> > >>> I believe we can have it both ways. > >>> > >>> If one wants ephemeral-EIDs, they are used for short-lived transport > >>> connections. If there will be long-lived transport connections, EIDs > >>> stay assigned to the node for a longer period of time but the > >>> encapsulated packets are encrypted. You can have one or both. You > >>> can get privacy either way. > >> > >> > >> Yes, but when there is a potential combination of long-lived > >> connections and short-lived connections using different identifiers > >> that might provide the ability for an observer to link the different > >> identifiers together. A resourceful observer with the ability to > >> observe on many links and networks than then build up the collection > >> of identifiers which have been used by a single identity. > >> (Unlinkability is defined in rfc6973) > >> > >> One can avoid this linkability by changing all the identifiers (and > >> other things visible in the clear like MAC addresses) and the same > >> time as the locators are changing e.g. when the endpoint moves to a > >> new network/link, but that will break the long-lived connections that > >> are active when the change happens. > >> > >> Of course, one can encrypt the identifiers (e.g., by encrypting > >> everything but the outer IP header) in the data packets since only > >> the locators are needed for packet delivery. > > > > > > Here be lots of dragons. The performance cost of such an approach > > needs careful consideration. > > > > I am very interested in long-lived associations. The privacy > > implications of these are important and a way to link and change them > > will need to be worked out. In part, this is orthogonal to the basic m= apping > requirements. > > For example, I can define a chain of Identifiers such that the > > Endpoints understand the relationship, but not the eavesdropper. I > > prefer this to >=20 > But, again that doesn't solve the problem that there could be things in p= lain > text that are easily used to match packets to the same flow even if IP > addresses change on every packet for the flow. If the goal is to prevent > associations between packets for long lived flows then all the methods by > which and attacker could make associations need to be considered. If we d= on't > consider that then all the work to dynamically change addresses for a flo= w > could be for naught. Yes, but I don't think it is worse than today's IP.=20 Bingyang >=20 > Tom >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 27 02:44:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EE7131FB7 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 02:44:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qqPwWMQLZLSk for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 02:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8AF51200ED for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 02:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSD45396; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:44:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.136) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:44:44 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.184]) by dggemi403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:44:05 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AdMGvFKeZP1DJNf1R2+EIq8k2KkoEA== Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:44:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.105.248] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A18FE2DGGEMI506MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.5979B60D.0039, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 976df427484057fbcb125ef25ce420f5 Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:44:49 -0000 --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A18FE2DGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and identity = is bound with ID/Loc protocols. Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., identity---IP = address, and be applied to the "legacy" IPv4/IPv6 without identifiers as in= termediate? Bingyang (Bryan) --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A18FE2DGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

The current model seems like id= entity---identifier---locator, and identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols.

Do you think identity can direc= tly link to IP address, i.e., identity---IP address, and be applied to the = “legacy” IPv4/IPv6 without identifiers as intermediate?

 

Bingyang (Bryan)

--_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A18FE2DGGEMI506MBXchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 27 03:11:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EAC129B30 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 03:11:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2zLgf2iVlSm for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 03:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.uni-tuebingen.de (mx03.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.213]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CEB713191D for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 03:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [134.2.11.131] (chaos.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.131]) by mx03.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BCDA680C49; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:10:55 +0200 (CEST) To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" References: From: Michael Menth Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:11:11 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:11:01 -0000 Dear Bingyang, all, good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identity and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping system with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious layers identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special identifier. There may be use cases where identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices. This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. Regards, Michael Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): > Hi all, > > > > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and > identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. > > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., > identity---IP address, and be applied to the legacy IPv4/IPv6 without > identifiers as intermediate? > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Thu Jul 27 10:02:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC74131FEC for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgGz3EROK2cw for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0259E131CFE for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLK67495; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:02:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:02:26 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:02:13 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Michael Menth , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AdMGvFKeZP1DJNf1R2+EIq8k2KkoEAAPwWSAAACGzCA= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:02:12 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.112] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.597A1CA4.0266, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 1734ba477ae20b7c46dab7c8062861fb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:02:41 -0000 Yes, in principle possible. =20 The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, end= points will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would envi= sion that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public identifiers, b= ut not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GR= IDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed with flexibility for su= ch queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would be a requirement - ce= rtainly not initially. =20 I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a possibili= ty, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the realm o= f personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IMHO we may= want to stay clear of this. =20 --- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM To: Liubingyang (Bryan) Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Dear Bingyang, all, good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special identifier. There may be use cases where identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices. This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support I= D-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. Regards, Michael Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): > Hi all, >=20 > =20 >=20 > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and=20 > identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. >=20 > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e.,=20 > identity---IP address, and be applied to the "legacy" IPv4/IPv6=20 > without identifiers as intermediate? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Bingyang (Bryan) >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Thu Jul 27 10:40:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE29132072 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:40:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_QBWgUI-kzz for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 004A0132073 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSE19183; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:40:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.142) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:40:40 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.184]) by dggemi404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 01:40:28 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Alexander Clemm , Michael Menth CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AQHTBv9vspWTChBCFEir+TKtBwdZkg== Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:40:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A199FADGGEMI506MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.597A259A.007B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: bf4c800574e6ad87672f0e3d43c5c846 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:40:49 -0000 --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A199FADGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with iden= tity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu M: +86-15810795994 E: liubingyang@huawei.com 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs From: Alexander Clemm To: Michael Menth>;Li= ubingyang (Bryan)> Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 Yes, in principle possible. The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, end= points will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would envi= sion that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public identifiers, b= ut not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GR= IDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed with flexibility for su= ch queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would be a requirement - ce= rtainly not initially. I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a possibili= ty, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the realm o= f personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IMHO we may= want to stay clear of this. --- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM To: Liubingyang (Bryan) Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Dear Bingyang, all, good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special identifier. There may be use cases where identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices. This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support I= D-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. Regards, Michael Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): > Hi all, > > > > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and > identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. > > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., > identity---IP address, and be applied to the =1B$B!H=1B(Blegacy=1B$B!I=1B= (B IPv4/IPv6 > without identifiers as intermediate? > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A199FADGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex

Sorry I don't get it. Why what you = "know" should be what you link with=  identity? And what if I just "know= " your ip ?


----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu
M: +86-15810795994  
E: liubingyang@huawei.com
2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs

From: Alexander Clemm
Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address= ?
Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24

Yes, in principle possible. 

The question is only, who will actually know the identity.  In general= , endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other parties.  I = would envision that other parties may "know" other endpoints by p= ublic identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GRIDS).  So, while a mapping= system might be designed with flexibility for such queries in mind, I don'= t think supporting it would be a requirement - certainly not initially.&nbs= p;

I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities.  It's a poss= ibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the re= alm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities).  So, I= MHO we may want to stay clear of this. 

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubingyang@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?

Dear Bingyang, all,

good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible
identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special
identifier. There may be use cases where
identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its device= s.
This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to suppor= t ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split.

Regards,

Michael

Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan):
> Hi all,
>
> 
>
> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and
> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols.
>
> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e.,
> identity---IP address, and be applied to the =1B$B!H=1B(Blegacy=1B$B!I= =1B(B IPv4/IPv6
> without identifiers as intermediate?
>
> 
>
> Bingyang (Bryan)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas
>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de=
http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ideas
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[173.11.119.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h70sm13320819pfh.132.2017.07.27.11.22.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 11:22:12 -0700 Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:22:16 -0000 > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and = identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., = identity---IP address, and be applied to the =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D = IPv4/IPv6 without identifiers as intermediate? Yes, because an IP address in today=E2=80=99s Internet is a locator. Note, the LISP mapping system can support: identity -> EID identity -> RLOC identity -> identity EID -> RLOC EID -> replication-list of RLOCs (LCAF RLE) EID -> service-chain of EIDs or RLOCs (LCAF ELP) Where identity and EID can come in many different address forms = including JSON strings. Dino From nobody Thu Jul 27 12:02:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A68132161 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oKXFRuBEAB62 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA6B21320EB for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSE26702; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:01:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:01:39 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:01:26 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AdMGvFKeZP1DJNf1R2+EIq8k2KkoEAAPwWSAAACGzCAADyn2gAAMENtQ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:01:25 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: , <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.147] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.597A3895.0312, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 650425dff0f87bcb4c0d2406d2d6d8d3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:01:59 -0000 --_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bingyang, You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at le= ast one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don't need= to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use an analogy= , I can send you an email using your identifier liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don't need to know your birth certificate= and passport number to assert your identity, nor would I expect providing = those to send you email. Cheers --- Alex From: Liubingyang (Bryan) Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Hi Alex Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with iden= tity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu M: +86-15810795994 E: liubingyang@huawei.com 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs From: Alexander Clemm To: Michael Menth>;Li= ubingyang (Bryan)> Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 Yes, in principle possible. The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, end= points will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would envi= sion that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public identifiers, b= ut not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GR= IDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed with flexibility for su= ch queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would be a requirement - ce= rtainly not initially. I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a possibili= ty, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the realm o= f personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IMHO we may= want to stay clear of this. --- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Dear Bingyang, all, good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special identifier. There may be use cases where identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices. This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support I= D-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. Regards, Michael Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): > Hi all, > > > > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and > identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. > > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., > identity---IP address, and be applied to the "legacy" IPv4/IPv6 > without identifiers as intermediate? > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Bingyan= g,

 = ;

You need t= o be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at least one of= its identifiers in order to send it traffic.   But, I don’t need to know your identity (in the narrower sense= of IDEAS).  To use an analogy, I can send you an email using your ide= ntifier liubingyang@huawei.com, but I= don’t need to know your birth certificate and passport number to ass= ert your identity, nor would I expect providing those to send you email.&nb= sp;   

 = ;

Cheers

--- Alex

 = ;

From: Liubingyang (Bryan)
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Michael Ment= h <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?=

 

Hi Alex

Sorry I don't get it. Why what you = "know" should be what you link with=  identity? And what if I just "know= " your ip ?


----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu
M: +86-15810795994  
E: liubingyang@huawei.com
2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs

From: Alexander Clemm

Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity direct= ly link with IP address?

Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24<= /span>

 

Yes, in principle p= ossible. 

The question is only, who will actually know the identity.  In general= , endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other parties.  I = would envision that other parties may "know" other endpoints by p= ublic identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GRIDS).  So, while a mapping= system might be designed with flexibility for such queries in mind, I don'= t think supporting it would be a requirement - certainly not initially.&nbs= p;

I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities.  It's a poss= ibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the re= alm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities).  So, I= MHO we may want to stay clear of this. 

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubi= ngyang@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?

Dear Bingyang, all,

good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible
identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special
identifier. There may be use cases where
identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its device= s.
This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to suppor= t ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split.

Regards,

Michael

Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan):
> Hi all,
>
> 
>
> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and
> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols.
>
> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e.,
> identity---IP address, and be applied to the “legacy” IPv4= /IPv6
> without identifiers as intermediate?
>
> 
>
> Bingyang (Bryan)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas
>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de=
http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0SJCEML703CHMchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 27 12:08:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1483A12EC2B for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:08:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5eZSqI38Y1Yw for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D17131D04 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLK79557; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:08:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:08:05 +0100 Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:07:53 -0700 From: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault To: Alexander Clemm , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth CC: "ideas@ietf.org" , Padmadevi Pillay Esnault Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AdMGvFKeZP1DJNf1R2+EIq8k2KkoEAAPwWSAAACGzCAADyn2gAAMENtQABfRnQA= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:07:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.171.251] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FBA5BSJCEML702CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.597A3A16.02DC, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.153, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 1734ba477ae20b7c46dab7c8062861fb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:08:12 -0000 --_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FBA5BSJCEML702CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex and all Just a comment here ... These analogies tie to a person .... I would rather say something like you= r contract# perhaps. My 2 cts Padma From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 12:01 PM To: Liubingyang (Bryan); Michael Menth Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Hi Bingyang, You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at le= ast one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don't need= to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use an analogy= , I can send you an email using your identifier liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don't need to know your birth certificate= and passport number to assert your identity, nor would I expect providing = those to send you email. Cheers --- Alex From: Liubingyang (Bryan) Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Hi Alex Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with iden= tity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu M: +86-15810795994 E: liubingyang@huawei.com 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs From: Alexander Clemm To: Michael Menth>;Li= ubingyang (Bryan)> Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 Yes, in principle possible. The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, end= points will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would envi= sion that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public identifiers, b= ut not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GR= IDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed with flexibility for su= ch queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would be a requirement - ce= rtainly not initially. I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a possibili= ty, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the realm o= f personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IMHO we may= want to stay clear of this. --- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Dear Bingyang, all, good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special identifier. There may be use cases where identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices. This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support I= D-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. Regards, Michael Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): > Hi all, > > > > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and > identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. > > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., > identity---IP address, and be applied to the "legacy" IPv4/IPv6 > without identifiers as intermediate? > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FBA5BSJCEML702CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Alex and all

 <= /p>

Just a comment here ̷= 0;

These analogies tie to a = person ….  I would rather say something like your contract# perh= aps.

 <= /p>

My 2 cts

Padma

 <= /p>

From: Ideas [m= ailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 12:01 PM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan); Michael Menth
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?

 

Hi Bingyang,

 <= /p>

You need to be able to re= fer to another endpoint, so you need to know at least one of its identifier= s in order to send it traffic.   But, I don’t need to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS).  To use an analogy, I= can send you an email using your identifier liubingyang@huawei.com, but I= don’t need to know your birth certificate and passport number to ass= ert your identity, nor would I expect providing those to send you email.&nb= sp;   

 <= /p>

Cheers<= /p>

--- Alex

 <= /p>

From: Liubin= gyang (Bryan)
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Michael Ment= h <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?=

 

Hi Alex

Sorry I don't get it. Why what you = "know" should be what you link with=  identity? And what if I just "know= " your ip ?


----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu
M: +86-15810795994  
E: liubingyang@huawei.com
2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs

From: Alexander Clemm

Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity direct= ly link with IP address?

Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24<= /span>

 

Yes, in principle p= ossible. 

The question is only, who will actually know the identity.  In general= , endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other parties.  I = would envision that other parties may "know" other endpoints by p= ublic identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GRIDS).  So, while a mapping= system might be designed with flexibility for such queries in mind, I don'= t think supporting it would be a requirement - certainly not initially.&nbs= p;

I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities.  It's a poss= ibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the re= alm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities).  So, I= MHO we may want to stay clear of this. 

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubi= ngyang@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?

Dear Bingyang, all,

good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible
identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special
identifier. There may be use cases where
identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its device= s.
This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to suppor= t ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split.

Regards,

Michael

Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan):
> Hi all,
>
> 
>
> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and
> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols.
>
> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e.,
> identity---IP address, and be applied to the “= legacy” IPv4/IPv6
> without identifiers as intermediate?
>
> 
>
> Bingyang (Bryan)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas
>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de=
http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FBA5BSJCEML702CHMchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 27 13:01:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBC1131E5F for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gnaO8AJXUVzb for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x244.google.com (mail-wr0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FE77131E36 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x244.google.com with SMTP id o33so17622898wrb.1 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bQxVP+yOiwD7ksRvWwSKa+iwOTz7uGKdxuq+uZPMu5U=; b=ZIKo5XDeJooGC97tsP5rmGQW008Yinz9vv+2l3TYF2XU4mzfFLvZ/A+amsAQaxYb+L DE/c8it15qJuV/Fo8xaj/H5Zj10qZYl3zzmAcayrnGAV0sEMVzyapZWBlunc5f68c921 olYBOmCR0PsYy2cE8teYyP6bDfRc0pHpCGiXughuJuz4XN/hgEcxj+jZJVmvM7ewUITK luOPsdUZuWCF4odig7fbZE2/qdt7g/LdOh+xpaAJCaSpTYTYxLh0YsnuUptj3tGKAekt EH57btvwhWblS3w7aIMAzwVexUjDt+Gfl/jDtTpr9dOqUNmSkQ9QtmeCCBagzoVZaLYG t3jQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bQxVP+yOiwD7ksRvWwSKa+iwOTz7uGKdxuq+uZPMu5U=; b=lR8roYWXUYa8BW+zA8BrVHR/khP0f7V4qIc1i1weZKXBQvCKBXkm8I7liRwyNJl/dn iKD6bq9lwVz6c6MNJnsex1zp3Rt0n1hjnDLjWG6vlggQ2JQQ2TMt96rsqORuH8MBtnCu dljnnkW1GK6rzhy49FEeBffSmukE5nxc01KtAdvYrqklOVoXCdzL7fqlztQ3EmBxgiZl MoTjVhjAHg5ABWFAvT5rqbQazhQLoWmu8Fs3lYmcFrwU7+TpjyQVGe92GnfZ0vJU42bY x60sfo5n97M8rWdzFRYazinDfFEJpG8ayC5X/hcRLKuqSL2tCfo5pM120FZMg9y4surD n91Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110SkZYYAEgxK3QGuocfTQYUSGxLEVoLGFWRMAwH3QTKRXK3TVTS mOn02Lo/b8AbqkYIeNLh8L5VRjRn/fLK X-Received: by 10.223.169.2 with SMTP id u2mr4174657wrc.288.1501185698827; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.130.85 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:01:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault Cc: Alexander Clemm , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:01:43 -0000 On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault wrote: > Alex and all > > > > Just a comment here =E2=80=A6 > > These analogies tie to a person =E2=80=A6. I would rather say something = like your > contract# perhaps. > > > > My 2 cts > > Padma > > > > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 12:01 PM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan); Michael Menth > > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > > > Hi Bingyang, > > > > You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at > least one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don=E2= =80=99t > need to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use an > analogy, I can send you an email using your identifier > liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don=E2=80=99t need to know your birth certi= ficate and > passport number to assert your identity, nor would I expect providing tho= se > to send you email. > I think the email analogy is good, but it's more interesting to view this from the sender perspective. I can easily set up a random email account for the purposes of keeping my identify anonymous and yet allowing for communications if I were to use that at the the reply address. Similarly a host could be assigned a block of "random" IP addresses (identifiers) and use a different one for each new connection. The network just needs to know how to route these addresses to the proper destination. That's what the mapping system does in identifier->locator mapping. If the network wants to correlate identifiers together as referring to the same identity for the purposes of policy it can, but I don't see that being necessary to facilitate communications nor protect privacy of users. Tom > > > Cheers > > --- Alex > > > > From: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM > To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > > > Hi Alex > > Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with > identity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? > > > ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu > M: +86-15810795994 > E: liubingyang@huawei.com > 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs > > From: Alexander Clemm > > To: Michael Menth;Liubingyang > (Bryan) > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 > > > > Yes, in principle possible. > > The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, > endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would > envision that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public > identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by which they would be > authenticated to GRIDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed wi= th > flexibility for such queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would b= e a > requirement - certainly not initially. > > I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a > possibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into = the > realm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IM= HO > we may want to stay clear of this. > > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > Dear Bingyang, all, > > good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between ident= ity > and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping > system with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious > layers identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible > identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special > identifier. There may be use cases where > identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices= . > This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support > ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. > > Regards, > > Michael > > Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and >> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. >> >> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., >> identity---IP address, and be applied to the =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D IP= v4/IPv6 >> without identifiers as intermediate? >> >> >> >> Bingyang (Bryan) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Thu Jul 27 13:42:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF64712FEE2 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HEJ4sVA6W_d3 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x242.google.com (mail-pg0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24BAA13219E for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x242.google.com with SMTP id d193so21535627pgc.2 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=s79epe+s582tF67aLcm0mUcA2uPs0ei9tW2UKSNtGqE=; b=bcrOvX8/1w6hlcZwCUABFBX/w2H30DqkoE/VEUk/TyymGnDiSGtmR4Gv8MKyZsMIzk mHFzN4hOZQ2yMQmi6hN80Wk505VYvmfX2rWidpT+jLV+A51CObnxKZV/Ox1zctA5fk1y xtPHCagahQdSKwuQRr28LYD2NATWEkFjd8bZ983f4FiFWxc8gKQ1cs3bU2Y2GVsP3Q6Q 94qvo6jF7zehUpPoANJMaecht8M/9a2Y8r1ixtM7RiXvdIaF46p12C5Ql+rPHvr1KeVr EuISanXeA/IzRP3LeOHRoYAW/KSpf/tWjTYgtctk/gMZB3UZ5SurVO2GmC+pv4e//9Ss P8qQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=s79epe+s582tF67aLcm0mUcA2uPs0ei9tW2UKSNtGqE=; b=A1t0mehsPxviiq1R3rJtNNsFfC1xrNXjQPc87x1JhxqYb8gYgUGKn+RMRxJpI4T0Ub Cm6HwaaqXJPHhDuwky8KYan3sIDBDGdm+IiyNB5RDCqOXE0mZ8qL2L0aExSRsiQn8uzk DIH312Y6f9gCwKCjnUOhcnn54fI0IAUVU2asQpZaZhwBXJcWqCuiXf9BFllIcTDEhudn Yv1i2TWv0+n09WALo0K7smwLEIG/GPilLSQQLzeKFYrRiz/4gt525B7Tb++6CEFFJ5Am NOIvyd1LZPO1I/09Hbxxhid67RzQV0RrK/Oiil7vMah2z2eV8GApKFn58iepIPN5FdDs VJvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112W5hhzoz0NGGnKB3f2W/hEqkcYnVk177pmE/z+YJhyxIrma2om tqWOhINA1ER9sA== X-Received: by 10.98.147.74 with SMTP id b71mr4112923pfe.283.1501188172802; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.254.148] ([38.108.181.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y2sm32448996pgy.60.2017.07.27.13.42.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:42:51 -0700 Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <966AF92C-9086-4F17-825F-40EF38B65877@gmail.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> To: Tom Herbert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:42:55 -0000 > I think the email analogy is good, but it's more interesting to view > this from the sender perspective. I can easily set up a random email > account for the purposes of keeping my identify anonymous and yet > allowing for communications if I were to use that at the the reply > address. Similarly a host could be assigned a block of "random" IP > addresses (identifiers) and use a different one for each new > connection. The network just needs to know how to route these > addresses to the proper destination. That's what the mapping system > does in identifier->locator mapping. If the network wants to correlate > identifiers together as referring to the same identity for the > purposes of policy it can, but I don't see that being necessary to > facilitate communications nor protect privacy of users. This is exactly what is described in: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farinacci-lisp-eid-anonymity/ Dino From nobody Thu Jul 27 18:45:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4818131EEB for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:45:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WAKcB_hjW2qU for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B35A3131EDE for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSE60150; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 01:45:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.134) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:45:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.184]) by dggemi401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.134]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:45:13 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Alexander Clemm , Michael Menth CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AQHTBv9vspWTChBCFEir+TKtBwdZkqJngWGAgAD08AA= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 01:45:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A19E6DDGGEMI506MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.597A9735.0047, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 650425dff0f87bcb4c0d2406d2d6d8d3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 01:45:29 -0000 --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A19E6DDGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now I get it. But maybe I just know your IP address (I don't want to mentio= n DNS here :)) and communicate with you. In this case, if identity is still= applicable, it may directly link with IP address, right? Bingyang From: Alexander Clemm Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:01 AM To: Liubingyang (Bryan) ; Michael Menth Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: RE: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Hi Bingyang, You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at le= ast one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don't need= to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use an analogy= , I can send you an email using your identifier liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don't need to know your birth certificate= and passport number to assert your identity, nor would I expect providing = those to send you email. Cheers --- Alex From: Liubingyang (Bryan) Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM To: Alexander Clemm >; Michael Menth > Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Hi Alex Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with iden= tity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu M: +86-15810795994 E: liubingyang@huawei.com 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs From: Alexander Clemm To: Michael Menth>;Li= ubingyang (Bryan)> Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 Yes, in principle possible. The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, end= points will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would envi= sion that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public identifiers, b= ut not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GR= IDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed with flexibility for su= ch queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would be a requirement - ce= rtainly not initially. I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a possibili= ty, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the realm o= f personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IMHO we may= want to stay clear of this. --- Alex -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Dear Bingyang, all, good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special identifier. There may be use cases where identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices. This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support I= D-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. Regards, Michael Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): > Hi all, > > > > The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and > identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. > > Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., > identity---IP address, and be applied to the "legacy" IPv4/IPv6 > without identifiers as intermediate? > > > > Bingyang (Bryan) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A19E6DDGGEMI506MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Now I get= it. But maybe I just know your IP address (I don’t want to mention D= NS here J) and communicate with you. In this case, if identity is still applicable, it may directly link with IP address, right?=

&nbs= p;

Bingyang<= o:p>

&nbs= p;

From:<= /span> Alexander Clemm
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:01 AM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubingyang@huawei.com>; Michael Ment= h <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?=

 

Hi Bingyang,

 

You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know = at least one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic.   But, I don’t need to know your identity (in = the narrower sense of IDEAS).  To use an analogy, I can send you an em= ail using your identifier liubingyang@huawei.com, but I= don’t need to know your birth certificate and passport number to ass= ert your identity, nor would I expect providing those to send you email.&nb= sp;   

 

Cheers

--- Alex

 

From: = Liubingyang (Bryan)
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?=

 

= Hi Alex

Sorry I don't get it. Why what you = "know" should be what you link with=  identity? And what if I just "know= " your ip ?


----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu
M: +86-15810795994  
E: liubingyang@huawei.com
2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs

From: Alexander Clemm<= o:p>

Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can = identity directly link with IP address?

Time: 2017-07-28 01:02= :24

 

Yes,= in principle possible. 

The question is only, who will actually know the identity.  In general= , endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other parties.  I = would envision that other parties may "know" other endpoints by p= ublic identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by which they would be authenticated to GRIDS).  So, while a mapping= system might be designed with flexibility for such queries in mind, I don'= t think supporting it would be a requirement - certainly not initially.&nbs= p;

I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities.  It's a poss= ibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into the re= alm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities).  So, I= MHO we may want to stay clear of this. 

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM
To: Liubingyang (Bryan) <liubi= ngyang@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address?

Dear Bingyang, all,

good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between identit= y and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping sy= stem with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious laye= rs identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible
identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special
identifier. There may be use cases where
identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its device= s.
This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to suppor= t ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split.

Regards,

Michael

Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan):
> Hi all,
>
> 
>
> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and
> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols.
>
> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e.,
> identity---IP address, and be applied to the “legacy= 221; IPv4/IPv6
> without identifiers as intermediate?
>
> 
>
> Bingyang (Bryan)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas
>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de=
http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A19E6DDGGEMI506MBXchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 27 19:48:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCA41270AC for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7GHjY3abi_ca for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x244.google.com (mail-wm0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D11BE12706D for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x244.google.com with SMTP id t138so6920833wmt.4 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eq8onn1M6WmUMtRSjKSspzmUMyKqPwZKyQRrjJcWp5o=; b=vmB6pRAkcxhAiQPxmjes+10mz65tRICkCXaswmZJB8cZszyRA+ZjT/oUVwqWuhRJw/ Pk84ya4qn94/x+UCDjkjO94V2TnFaSlq81IFMja2/AIh7XqsYzLV7VUnTbrZavbsqy5X 3xxpjPHgadaIA/tccr5yTqDHr2S9CU1iRhzJDIlm7wHSUCwohef/+tUZGgrO7EwZ7WUQ fyob/+0jUQdWCw9AW0N7YUVqulwU1ePicaMywYwXtTEt3dkw1RA0mUUYkTgptAlMHx/6 9Uza7a/MfUrRkhvPesAhKTngPXmT4N3uzgm9Cgm0rafPtoEN8XrUENwkhnlXwnAakUzT a6dg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eq8onn1M6WmUMtRSjKSspzmUMyKqPwZKyQRrjJcWp5o=; b=fL3EW64YlkB6vwMBQHkFx2/WzB9c2weC78Zetn4oRmrtKm2bGAdsJPyfFmBfPGyv+L hfswoKBIXRhy+toYwIslHsoBl45AuoOKoOVCuJfIKOY0YpjlZz3cA40BUIjvzdBpKZ9J 6Yt3Lu3yeayfGctoKlnj9x/+mVl1La0MSA2n3BJmMJUgNnMF7sVaj9a7oa/bwG3YG7z5 izLD1s7duTMifh/WnetJypyPVoI3qjPg2Ok3wBgWA9FHkBRrDK7hIoIuxTA4pIEc1eqO 5brKeecvqTLhAqdu6SgIa91cHxldv3969fJqefZpyOO2HWTvTsV5vs4csBYox7jvwvAC yUdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113/G6TtG6+eZQhY8udgdqeOFym1KfHRBJO/KmT1bm+kKLtZXOul vWYi1zqIAz5vtzMqpfp+e4ImJnc6gHq4 X-Received: by 10.28.175.135 with SMTP id y129mr4333977wme.87.1501210097249; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.130.85 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 19:48:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" Cc: Alexander Clemm , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 02:48:21 -0000 On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: > Now I get it. But maybe I just know your IP address (I don=E2=80=99t want= to mention > DNS here J) and communicate with you. In this case, if identity is still > applicable, it may directly link with IP address, right? > This question confuses me which I suppose it to say the notion of identify related to IP addressing is still confusing. If two nodes are able so successfully communicate using IP address then where does identity come into play? If the applications need to verify whom they're talking they'll using a mechanism like x.509 or TLS and should never rely on IP addresses as having any security properties. Tom > > > Bingyang > > > > From: Alexander Clemm > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:01 AM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan) ; Michael Menth > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: RE: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > > > Hi Bingyang, > > > > You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at > least one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don=E2= =80=99t > need to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use an > analogy, I can send you an email using your identifier > liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don=E2=80=99t need to know your birth certi= ficate and > passport number to assert your identity, nor would I expect providing tho= se > to send you email. > > > > Cheers > > --- Alex > > > > From: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM > To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > > > Hi Alex > > Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with > identity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? > > > ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu > M: +86-15810795994 > E: liubingyang@huawei.com > 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs > > From: Alexander Clemm > > To: Michael Menth;Liubingyang > (Bryan) > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 > > > > Yes, in principle possible. > > The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In general, > endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other parties. I would > envision that other parties may "know" other endpoints by public > identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by which they would be > authenticated to GRIDS). So, while a mapping system might be designed wi= th > flexibility for such queries in mind, I don't think supporting it would b= e a > requirement - certainly not initially. > > I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a > possibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get into = the > realm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint identities). So, IM= HO > we may want to stay clear of this. > > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > Dear Bingyang, all, > > good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between ident= ity > and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the new mapping > system with access control is not limited to the currently three obvious > layers identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more flexible > identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special > identifier. There may be use cases where > identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devices= . > This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to support > ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. > > Regards, > > Michael > > Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and >> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. >> >> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., >> identity---IP address, and be applied to the =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D IP= v4/IPv6 >> without identifiers as intermediate? >> >> >> >> Bingyang (Bryan) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Thu Jul 27 20:45:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0C813220C for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:45:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Es9LOUfb2qI for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF59513220A for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 20:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSE72585; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:45:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.142) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 04:45:15 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.184]) by dggemi404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:45:04 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: "'Tom Herbert'" CC: Alexander Clemm , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AQHTB0v8kV3Mp3B2bUeKT1f7Kd4I6qJoicig Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 03:45:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.597AB34D.002F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 2f403d5686c8c21db4edc3b48edc6500 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? 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(PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:12:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" Cc: Alexander Clemm , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:12:09 -0000 On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I see what you mean. But I don't think your concern is specific to IP add= ress. Btw, I think certificate is just one way to bind identity with someth= ing, not the identity itself. > Bingyang, I think one difference is that certificate can be signed by a trusted third party whereas IP addresses aren't. The third party involvement is important since the signing authority is not in the data path for the communication which keeps a separation of functions and is stronger for privacy. In the case of a network provider it's both the authority and in the data path for IP addresses-- this is probably necessary but lessens the possibility of making IP addresses secure mechanisms. Tom > Bingyang > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 10:48 AM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth ; ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: >> Now I get it. But maybe I just know your IP address (I don=E2=80=99t wan= t to >> mention DNS here J) and communicate with you. In this case, if >> identity is still applicable, it may directly link with IP address, righ= t? >> > This question confuses me which I suppose it to say the notion of identif= y related to IP addressing is still confusing. If two nodes are able so suc= cessfully communicate using IP address then where does identity come into p= lay? If the applications need to verify whom they're talking they'll using = a mechanism like x.509 or TLS and should never rely on IP addresses as hav= ing any security properties. > > Tom > >> >> >> Bingyang >> >> >> >> From: Alexander Clemm >> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:01 AM >> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) ; Michael Menth >> >> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >> >> >> >> Hi Bingyang, >> >> >> >> You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know at >> least one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don= =E2=80=99t >> need to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use >> an analogy, I can send you an email using your identifier >> liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don=E2=80=99t need to know your birth >> certificate and passport number to assert your identity, nor would I >> expect providing those to send you email. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> --- Alex >> >> >> >> From: Liubingyang (Bryan) >> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM >> To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth >> >> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >> >> >> >> Hi Alex >> >> Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link with >> identity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu >> M: +86-15810795994 >> E: liubingyang@huawei.com >> 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs >> >> From: Alexander Clemm >> >> To: Michael Menth;Liubingyang >> (Bryan) >> >> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >> >> Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >> >> Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 >> >> >> >> Yes, in principle possible. >> >> The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In >> general, endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other >> parties. I would envision that other parties may "know" other >> endpoints by public identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by >> which they would be authenticated to GRIDS). So, while a mapping >> system might be designed with flexibility for such queries in mind, I >> don't think supporting it would be a requirement - certainly not initial= ly. >> >> I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a >> possibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get >> into the realm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint >> identities). So, IMHO we may want to stay clear of this. >> >> --- Alex >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth >> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM >> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) >> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >> >> Dear Bingyang, all, >> >> good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between >> identity and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the >> new mapping system with access control is not limited to the currently >> three obvious layers identity-identifier-locator, but follows a more >> flexible >> identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special >> identifier. There may be use cases where >> identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its device= s. >> This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to >> support ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. >> >> Regards, >> >> Michael >> >> Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and >>> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. >>> >>> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., >>> identity---IP address, and be applied to the =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D I= Pv4/IPv6 >>> without identifiers as intermediate? >>> >>> >>> >>> Bingyang (Bryan) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ideas mailing list >>> Ideas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>> >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >> University of Tuebingen >> Faculty of Science >> Department of Computer Science >> Chair of Communication Networks >> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> From nobody Fri Jul 28 09:45:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D07131CDC for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gx1Yu4Af0jpL for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 172DA131CE0 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLM25638; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:44:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:44:52 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:44:37 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" CC: Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AQHTB0wCgrudF1hEI06Ny+YHLnWD/6JpDoqAgAC/9AD//6LO0A== Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:44:37 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.65] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.597B6A05.00A1, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 1734ba477ae20b7c46dab7c8062861fb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? 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verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:56:16 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:56:15 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:56:15 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 Thread-Index: AQHTB8JsAqwNdWNTfEKqYGIxV7H2Vg== Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:56:15 +0000 Message-ID: <2D8B5CDE-ABFC-4BB5-849D-B1F6BD4D7B91@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.22.0.170515 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D8B5CDEABFC4BB5849DB1F6BD4D7B91ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zd5e8T5vSgNL for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com (mail-wr0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A798A131748 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 33so100843113wrz.4 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:06:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KBAnncxToLAKntep0H5C1uOTOncwrcjusZorRgqQc90=; b=ffQ7CXwBVAUv0OgQKU0yq6bx0ohj3xB7xsleT8+Lfcnmm4fz8G2GadEcgiHDCJz0pq 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PGrGzfrtFRUKMc217bq1dj0+Qzc/oW/2 X-Received: by 10.223.169.2 with SMTP id u2mr6298610wrc.288.1501261617045; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:06:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.130.85 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:06:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:06:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:07:01 -0000 On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:44 AM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Yes, exactly. > And likewise, GRIDS will not be in the data path. > To communicate successfully, a node will need to merely know the identifi= er of who it wants to talk to (and which can be resolved to a locator). Id= entity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple identifiers= with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply anonymization= schemes such as was mentioned by Dino), and so it is easier to administer = the overall system (such as, firewall rules, which would be nice if you cou= ld avoid having to update them every time an endpoint's IP address changes)= . Alex, I understand the administrative benefits for grouping together a set of related identifiers so that their common location can be moved in the mapping system in one step. But that doesn't affect the mapping system function, it's job is still to map identifiers to locators. Firewalls rules, however, are more invasive-- these would be on the datapath. If the intent is that firewall rules are now based on identity then this does introduce the notion of identity to be critical in the data path? Extrapolating further, if identity becomes essential to data path operations, then what will it mean if identity of a user is compromised? For example, if the network provider maintains identities of its users but their database is compromised would this put user at risk? Thanks, Tom > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 8:12 AM > To: Liubingyang (Bryan) > Cc: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth ; ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> >> I see what you mean. But I don't think your concern is specific to IP ad= dress. Btw, I think certificate is just one way to bind identity with somet= hing, not the identity itself. >> > Bingyang, > > I think one difference is that certificate can be signed by a trusted thi= rd party whereas IP addresses aren't. The third party involvement is import= ant since the signing authority is not in the data path for the communicati= on which keeps a separation of functions and is stronger for privacy. In th= e case of a network provider it's both the authority and in the data path f= or IP addresses-- this is probably necessary but lessens the possibility of= making IP addresses secure mechanisms. > > Tom > >> Bingyang >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 10:48 AM >> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) >> Cc: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth >> ; ideas@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >> >> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: >>> Now I get it. But maybe I just know your IP address (I don=E2=80=99t wa= nt to >>> mention DNS here J) and communicate with you. In this case, if >>> identity is still applicable, it may directly link with IP address, rig= ht? >>> >> This question confuses me which I suppose it to say the notion of identi= fy related to IP addressing is still confusing. If two nodes are able so su= ccessfully communicate using IP address then where does identity come into = play? If the applications need to verify whom they're talking they'll using= a mechanism like x.509 or TLS and should never rely on IP addresses as ha= ving any security properties. >> >> Tom >> >>> >>> >>> Bingyang >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alexander Clemm >>> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:01 AM >>> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) ; Michael Menth >>> >>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Bingyang, >>> >>> >>> >>> You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know a= t >>> least one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don= =E2=80=99t >>> need to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use >>> an analogy, I can send you an email using your identifier >>> liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don=E2=80=99t need to know your birth >>> certificate and passport number to assert your identity, nor would I >>> expect providing those to send you email. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> --- Alex >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Liubingyang (Bryan) >>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM >>> To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth >>> >>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Alex >>> >>> Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link >>> with identity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu >>> M: +86-15810795994 >>> E: liubingyang@huawei.com >>> 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs >>> >>> From: Alexander Clemm >>> >>> To: Michael Menth;Liubingyang >>> (Bryan) >>> >>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>> >>> Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>> >>> Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, in principle possible. >>> >>> The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In >>> general, endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other >>> parties. I would envision that other parties may "know" other >>> endpoints by public identifiers, but not by their actual identity (by >>> which they would be authenticated to GRIDS). So, while a mapping >>> system might be designed with flexibility for such queries in mind, I >>> don't think supporting it would be a requirement - certainly not initia= lly. >>> >>> I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a >>> possibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get >>> into the realm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint >>> identities). So, IMHO we may want to stay clear of this. >>> >>> --- Alex >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael >>> Menth >>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM >>> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) >>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>> >>> Dear Bingyang, all, >>> >>> good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between >>> identity and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the >>> new mapping system with access control is not limited to the >>> currently three obvious layers identity-identifier-locator, but >>> follows a more flexible >>> identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special >>> identifier. There may be use cases where >>> identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devic= es. >>> This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to >>> support ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and >>>> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. >>>> >>>> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., >>>> identity---IP address, and be applied to the =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D = IPv4/IPv6 >>>> without identifiers as intermediate? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bingyang (Bryan) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ideas mailing list >>>> Ideas@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >>> University of Tuebingen >>> Faculty of Science >>> Department of Computer Science >>> Chair of Communication Networks >>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ideas mailing list >>> Ideas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ideas mailing list >>> Ideas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>> From nobody Fri Jul 28 11:37:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F9113206D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GxClaUoYPeOw for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3AB1131D69 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id m85so28914604wma.0 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q7utKLRPYlCD0q4KE7Ct1WtElzStJlVtkAbKBytiW60=; b=E5f3aQwVXWCk08WqmVCWRml1PdKgytJNNvl9dPAUFBV9aAQ1nWSv3ILORVfKAuHz41 lrnyAa5ARFLweYDT5G9ep1f6mdEQRhZVcKeb1rDtNesgQlDGQJ5cODcA5RD6Jb6HQ1Yy b3wIWUddhnYYrzfUpfB4csUCPAW+K4XovVW7mCGH6Xdlq4/2sjnyinLL9hz9wALMBLXk /ZMsBs8c8VF1evvhARTy9E63enLJtLjxB/eHIGV3P9O5v09hrhgScq7J+XNdBPnpEKrL j06VniTidjwgjIW5Q4kJfj7/OEOGgP0+a/mripjx7YxdK1YSCxGSbJJTLtuuAQaHUZ5O KYLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q7utKLRPYlCD0q4KE7Ct1WtElzStJlVtkAbKBytiW60=; b=aTYcRbO9SKzXDOWju8bealLM5PhxLJo/E5rQAm5uF8lneqiO0xvwAKNDLr4RymJySD IduPd3gXpczhtPf2YPKsRrrhrZhHL3wG0jfwx45qrezpYKD68obVce2OVaEKiizfr3Tc 2k5xyFtKIE+KHEV8U+r98M974noL5w/c6TlFaat6UJEZaZV1c6AnIopZ6dclK9dNIZph I9YqsIFo65KB7Vltf1bFSa7UIXr6UUypqoCqDAegAJqMsjJF7gL28P4jeK5cJG62BAjl JLJae2ClReB/XyVSR4tP9Y7WjRU7d9VuUpbwuuGJJuPzSQC/4MxEYUT1sNjU6Rox46CU A3NA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113TblgfRN3gW4K5GtGRyDzgzMhYzldyKf6AgKQb7e+JYBaWRXOO 6eAP4N1QawDsdnDB7QUn5lddhBliVg== X-Received: by 10.28.146.209 with SMTP id u200mr6700480wmd.38.1501267022237; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.167.10 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2D8B5CDE-ABFC-4BB5-849D-B1F6BD4D7B91@cisco.com> References: <2D8B5CDE-ABFC-4BB5-849D-B1F6BD4D7B91@cisco.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:37:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11442a0292d75b055564f782" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:37:06 -0000 --001a11442a0292d75b055564f782 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alvaro and IDEAS The github was updated to have a separate file with a version of the first charter for your reference. Propose that updates to the version2 of charter be done to recapture the focus of version1 and share it here on the alias. Thanks Padma On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/7/17, 5:46 PM, "Ideas on behalf of Alvaro Retana (aretana)" < > ideas-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of aretana@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > Dear IDEAS list: > > > > First of all, I want to thank the proponents and everyone who participate= d > in last week=E2=80=99s BOF in Prague. Special thanks to the BOF Chairs! > > > > > The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, and it was decided > > > to go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99. Congratulations! > > > > > > There are however some concerns that we need you (proponents/ > > > participants/authors) to address at the BoF. Based on that, we should > > > ideally be able to take some action=E2=80=A6 From my point of view, the= success > > > of the BoF should be measured by whether we have the necessary > > > information to make the correct decision. > > > > The consensus among the Chairs and the IESG/IAB is that the materials > presented at the BOF resulted in the feeling that there is something to b= e > done here, but that =E2=80=9Csomething=E2=80=9D is not clear. In part, t= his impression > comes from the wide-ranging discussion =E2=80=93 in part from the fact th= at most of > the technical discussions have so far not been held on the list. To > paraphrase one of the participants: =E2=80=9CI know what I want, and I ki= nd of know > what others want=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 > > > > What are the next steps? I would like to see more discussions and > participation on the list, to reflect the interest in the room =E2=80=93 = some of > that is starting to happen already. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think that this effort would necessarily benefit from the= BOF > result being =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s try it again next time=E2=80=9D. Alt= ernatively, I am willing > to sponsor a focused WG proposal [*] to define a framework that reflects > consensus on what is expected from the mapping system, the questions arou= nd > identity persistence, privacy, etc. I note that the BOF proposal [1] > included precisely a framework as milestones=E2=80=A6 > > > > =3D=3D=3D > > Milestones > > Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > August 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > =3D=3D=3D > > > > =E2=80=A6but the current proposed charter [2] does not reflect that. > > > > If the group has the interest to follow this focused path, please start > the discussion around an updated proposed charter. If we settle on the > text quickly, we should be able to take a proposal through the process > (long) before the next IETF. I would hope for an aggressive timeline in > completing that piece of work. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > > > [*] Obviously, the normal approval process would be followed: > IESG/IAB/community review, etc. > > [1] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ > > [2] https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a11442a0292d75b055564f782 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Alvaro and IDEAS

Th= e github was updated to have a separate file with a version of the first ch= arter for your reference.

Propose that updates to = the version2 of charter be done to recapture the focus of version1 and shar= e it here on the alias.

Thanks
Padma


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana@ci= sco.com> wrote:

On 6/7/17, 5:46 PM, "Ideas on behalf of Alvaro Retana (aretana)= " <ideas-bounces= @ietf.org on behalf of aretana@cisco.c= om>= ; wrote:

=C2=A0

Dear IDEAS list:

=C2=A0

First of all, I want to thank the proponents and everyone who partic= ipated in last week=E2=80=99s BOF in Prague.=C2=A0 Special thanks to the BO= F Chairs!

=C2=A0

> The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, and it wa= s decided

> to go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99.=C2=A0 C= ongratulations!

>

>= There are however some concerns that we need you (proponents/

> participants/authors) to address at the BoF.=C2=A0 = Based on that, we should

> ideally be able to take some action=E2=80=A6 From m= y point of view, the success

> of the BoF should be measured by whether we have th= e necessary

> information to make the correct decision.=

=C2=A0=

The consensus among the Chairs and the IESG/IAB is that the material= s presented at the BOF resulted in the feeling that there is something to b= e done here, but that =E2=80=9Csomething=E2=80=9D is not clear.=C2=A0 In part, this impression comes from the wide-ranging discussion =E2=80=93 = in part from the fact that most of the technical discussions have so far no= t been held on the list.=C2=A0 To paraphrase one of the participants: =E2= =80=9CI know what I want, and I kind of know what others want=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

What are the next steps?=C2=A0 I would like to see more discussions = and participation on the list, to reflect the interest in the room =E2=80= =93 some of that is starting to happen already.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think that this effort would necessarily benefit fro= m the BOF result being =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s try it again next time=E2=80= =9D.=C2=A0 Alternatively, I am willing to sponsor a focused WG proposal [*]= to define a framework that reflects consensus on what is expected from the mapping s= ystem, the questions around identity persistence, privacy, etc.=C2=A0 I not= e that the BOF proposal [1] included precisely a framework as milestones=E2= =80=A6

=C2=A0

=3D=3D=3D

Milestones

Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework

May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework

August 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG

=3D=3D=3D

=C2=A0

=E2=80=A6but the current proposed charter [2] does not reflect that.=

=C2=A0

If the group has the interest to follow this focused path, please st= art the discussion around an updated proposed charter.=C2=A0 If we settle o= n the text quickly, we should be able to take a proposal through the process (long) before the next IETF.=C2=A0 I would hope for an= aggressive timeline in completing that piece of work.=

=C2=A0

Thanks!

=C2=A0

Alvaro.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[*] Obviously, the normal approval process would be followed: IESG/I= AB/community review, etc.

[1] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/

[2] https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a11442a0292d75b055564f782-- From nobody Fri Jul 28 14:30:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A721321A6 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-YWTl88bnyx for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7EAB1321A1 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSG06289; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:30:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:30:42 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:30:34 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert CC: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:03:48 -0000 On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I would certainly think that we would want firewall rules to not just be = based on locators. So, it will make sense to apply them on a per-identifie= r basis. > > Whether we would like to apply them on the basis of the underlying identi= ty is something that we as working group should discuss. It is possible, b= ut in that case the firewall would certainly have a dependency on the ident= ity services plane. In essence the firewall would need to be able to speci= fy a rule "apply this rule to the endpoint whose identity is tied to this i= dentifier", and then as one possibility have the firewall interact with the= identity services to apply the rules against other identifiers are associa= ted with the same endpoint/identity. I don't think identity should be carr= ied on the data path nor would that be necessary. > Agreed. Another question I would ask concerning introducing identity at the IP layer is how this will relate to other forms of identity that already exist. For instance, how would this relate to the subscriber identity of a mobile device (e.g. SIM). Would the IP layer identity be derived from these, or is IP identity somehow independent of these? Thinking about how mobility might play out in a mobile network, I think it's likely that the mobility manager will want to populate the identifier/locator mapping table with the proper entries. In the case that devices are get a set of addresses for obfuscation purposes, it makes sense that the addresses are group together so that the mobility manager can change the common locator for the set in one shot. That seems straightforward, but the question that I'm struggling with is whether the mapping system (or rest of network) should or must infer additional semantics on this grouping which I suppose constitutes an identity (of the device or subscriber in mobile case). Identity is obviously sensitive data especially if it is PII, so minimizing exposure and dissemination is important. Tom > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 10:07 AM > To: Alexander Clemm > Cc: Liubingyang (Bryan) ; Michael Menth ; ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:44 AM, Alexander Clemm wrote: >> Yes, exactly. >> And likewise, GRIDS will not be in the data path. >> To communicate successfully, a node will need to merely know the identif= ier of who it wants to talk to (and which can be resolved to a locator). I= dentity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple identifier= s with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply anonymizatio= n schemes such as was mentioned by Dino), and so it is easier to administer= the overall system (such as, firewall rules, which would be nice if you co= uld avoid having to update them every time an endpoint's IP address changes= ). > > Alex, > > I understand the administrative benefits for grouping together a set of r= elated identifiers so that their common location can be moved in the mappin= g system in one step. But that doesn't affect the mapping system function, = it's job is still to map identifiers to locators. > Firewalls rules, however, are more invasive-- these would be on the datap= ath. If the intent is that firewall rules are now based on identity then th= is does introduce the notion of identity to be critical in the data path? E= xtrapolating further, if identity becomes essential to data path operations= , then what will it mean if identity of a user is compromised? For example,= if the network provider maintains identities of its users but their databa= se is compromised would this put user at risk? > > Thanks, > Tom > >> --- Alex >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 8:12 AM >> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) >> Cc: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth >> ; ideas@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >> >> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> I see what you mean. But I don't think your concern is specific to IP a= ddress. Btw, I think certificate is just one way to bind identity with some= thing, not the identity itself. >>> >> Bingyang, >> >> I think one difference is that certificate can be signed by a trusted th= ird party whereas IP addresses aren't. The third party involvement is impor= tant since the signing authority is not in the data path for the communicat= ion which keeps a separation of functions and is stronger for privacy. In t= he case of a network provider it's both the authority and in the data path = for IP addresses-- this is probably necessary but lessens the possibility o= f making IP addresses secure mechanisms. >> >> Tom >> >>> Bingyang >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >>> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 10:48 AM >>> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) >>> Cc: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth >>> ; ideas@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Liubingyang (Bryan) wrote: >>>> Now I get it. But maybe I just know your IP address (I don=E2=80=99t w= ant to >>>> mention DNS here J) and communicate with you. In this case, if >>>> identity is still applicable, it may directly link with IP address, ri= ght? >>>> >>> This question confuses me which I suppose it to say the notion of ident= ify related to IP addressing is still confusing. If two nodes are able so s= uccessfully communicate using IP address then where does identity come into= play? If the applications need to verify whom they're talking they'll usin= g a mechanism like x.509 or TLS and should never rely on IP addresses as h= aving any security properties. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bingyang >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Alexander Clemm >>>> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 3:01 AM >>>> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) ; Michael Menth >>>> >>>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>>> Subject: RE: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Bingyang, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You need to be able to refer to another endpoint, so you need to know = at >>>> least one of its identifiers in order to send it traffic. But, I don= =E2=80=99t >>>> need to know your identity (in the narrower sense of IDEAS). To use >>>> an analogy, I can send you an email using your identifier >>>> liubingyang@huawei.com, but I don=E2=80=99t need to know your birth >>>> certificate and passport number to assert your identity, nor would I >>>> expect providing those to send you email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> --- Alex >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Liubingyang (Bryan) >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:40 AM >>>> To: Alexander Clemm ; Michael Menth >>>> >>>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Alex >>>> >>>> Sorry I don't get it. Why what you "know" should be what you link >>>> with identity? And what if I just "know" your ip ? >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------Bingyang Liu >>>> M: +86-15810795994 >>>> E: liubingyang@huawei.com >>>> 2012 Laboratories-NG IP Network Laboratory,2012Labs >>>> >>>> From: Alexander Clemm >>>> >>>> To: Michael Menth;Liubingyang >>>> (Bryan) >>>> >>>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>>> >>>> Time: 2017-07-28 01:02:24 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, in principle possible. >>>> >>>> The question is only, who will actually know the identity. In >>>> general, endpoints will be referred to by an identifier by other >>>> parties. I would envision that other parties may "know" other >>>> endpoints by public identifiers, but not by their actual identity >>>> (by which they would be authenticated to GRIDS). So, while a >>>> mapping system might be designed with flexibility for such queries >>>> in mind, I don't think supporting it would be a requirement - certainl= y not initially. >>>> >>>> I am not sure I would go to multiple tiers of identities. It's a >>>> possibility, but it would raise additional issues if we were to get >>>> into the realm of personal identities (as opposed to endpoint >>>> identities). So, IMHO we may want to stay clear of this. >>>> >>>> --- Alex >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael >>>> Menth >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:11 AM >>>> To: Liubingyang (Bryan) >>>> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? >>>> >>>> Dear Bingyang, all, >>>> >>>> good point! You essentially propose a more flexible mapping between >>>> identity and identifiers. I think it generally makes sense that the >>>> new mapping system with access control is not limited to the >>>> currently three obvious layers identity-identifier-locator, but >>>> follows a more flexible >>>> identifier->identifier mapping, whereby an identity is a special >>>> identifier. There may be use cases where >>>> identity->identity may make sense, e.g., mapping of a user to its devi= ces. >>>> This would also allow identity->locator which would be helpful to >>>> support ID-networking w/ legacy IPv4/v6 but w/o loc/ID split. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> Am 27.07.2017 um 11:44 schrieb Liubingyang (Bryan): >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The current model seems like identity---identifier---locator, and >>>>> identity is bound with ID/Loc protocols. >>>>> >>>>> Do you think identity can directly link to IP address, i.e., >>>>> identity---IP address, and be applied to the =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D= IPv4/IPv6 >>>>> without identifiers as intermediate? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bingyang (Bryan) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Ideas mailing list >>>>> Ideas@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth >>>> University of Tuebingen >>>> Faculty of Science >>>> Department of Computer Science >>>> Chair of Communication Networks >>>> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany >>>> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 >>>> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 >>>> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de >>>> http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ideas mailing list >>>> Ideas@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ideas mailing list >>>> Ideas@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>>> From nobody Fri Jul 28 15:17:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAEC131DA4 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5HwT1wqegxkd for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3947D13170E for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSG09382; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:11:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:11:25 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:11:13 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Alexander Clemm , Tom Herbert , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" CC: "ideas@ietf.org" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AdMGvFKeZP1DJNf1R2+EIq8k2KkoEAAPwWSAAACGzCAADyn2gAAMENtQAATdTIAAAjO2AAAB+66AABf+aQAAAzt2gAADf/dQ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:11:12 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A37DD3@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.597BB68E.00FB, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 2f403d5686c8c21db4edc3b48edc6500 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 08:57:08 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Tom Herbert CC: Alexander Clemm , Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AQHTB0v8kV3Mp3B2bUeKT1f7Kd4I6qJoiciggABJQQCAAShV8A== Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:57:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.597BDD71.00A2, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.184, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 1734ba477ae20b7c46dab7c8062861fb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:57:28 -0000 UlBLSSBpcyBmb3IgM3JkLXBhcnR5IGF1dGhvcml0eSB0byBjZXJ0aWZ5IHNvbWUgaWRlbnRpdHkg b3ducyBzb21lIElQIGFkZHJlc3Nlcy9wcmVmaXhlcy4gSSB0aGluayBjZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZXMgYXJl IGdlbmVyYWwgZW5vdWdoIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgYW55IEludGVybmV0IG51bWJlciByZXNvdXJjZXMg ZnJvbSB0aGUgdGVjaG5pY2FsIHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlLiBJdCBpcyBqdXN0IHRoYXQgZm9yIGVhY2gg Y2xhc3Mgb2YgcmVzb3VyY2VzIHRoZXJlIHNob3VsZCBiZSBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBhdXRob3Jp dGF0aXZlIHJvb3QuIA0KDQpCaW5neWFuZw0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0K RnJvbTogVG9tIEhlcmJlcnQgW21haWx0bzp0b21AaGVyYmVydGxhbmQuY29tXSANClNlbnQ6IEZy aWRheSwgSnVseSAyOCwgMjAxNyAxMToxMiBQTQ0KVG86IExpdWJpbmd5YW5nIChCcnlhbikgPGxp dWJpbmd5YW5nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+DQpDYzogQWxleGFuZGVyIENsZW1tIDxhbGV4YW5kZXIuY2xl bW1AaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IE1pY2hhZWwgTWVudGggPG1lbnRoQHVuaS10dWViaW5nZW4uZGU+OyBp ZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtJZGVhc10gQ2FuIGlkZW50aXR5IGRpcmVjdGx5 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PiBJZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9pZGVhcw0KPj4NCg== From nobody Sat Jul 29 10:02:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3A7131CBA for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 10:02:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GS4TyShfRpyc for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 10:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D12BB131D25 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 10:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LAPTOPR7T053C2 ([73.71.191.170]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M8Pa8-1dpA623AW2-00w0oz; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 19:01:57 +0200 From: "Alexander Clemm" To: "'Padma Pillay-Esnault'" , "'Alvaro Retana \(aretana\)'" Cc: References: <2D8B5CDE-ABFC-4BB5-849D-B1F6BD4D7B91@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 10:01:58 -0700 Message-ID: <001801d3088c$6470e400$2d52ac00$@clemm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01D30851.B81392A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHA/xm9utiFZZWTbgkJEjgWvOzkgQGeKdnyooIiwlA= Content-Language: en-us X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:lDOJqjMwH4wMlXtdvddb3gHI4Kkxg23wnn6LeybkU0Wi7EjzmnC FfQBlDpuH/mPvIE8Zqt6JERCTOMR+ioHEqRuSq5EkxjsDnRCeMyMRGLPxF562PK5UHdjl3U 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[Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:02:02 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01D30851.B81392A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Padma, Alvaro, =20 I looked at the charter version on the github. Charter-version1.txt = does not reflect the latest version that we had discussed in Prague. = The latest version had been pruned down significantly over that, in an = effort to try and create sharper focus. Of course, further work is = still required, but many of the earlier items, such as metadata support, = endpoint grouping support, DDoS considerations were already removed (but = show in Charter-version1.txt). =20 =20 Also posted on github is IDEAS-charter.txt; this is probably the version = that we should discuss. But it is not clear and I find it very = confusing what is supposed to be the most current version and the one = that we should be discussing updates on. If it is = =E2=80=9CIDEAS-charter.txt=E2=80=9D, I find = =E2=80=9CCharter-version1.txt=E2=80=9D a distraction; can we mark it as = historic or such, or remove it, just so we are all on the same page what = the current baseline is that we are discussing? =20 =20 What is the way forward here =E2=80=93 how will we refine the charter; = should we make edits on github or have the discussion on text snippets = here on the mailer? Who holds the editor=E2=80=99s pen? =20 Thanks --- Alex =20 =20 From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma = Pillay-Esnault Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 11:37 AM To: Alvaro Retana (aretana) Cc: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 =20 Dear Alvaro and IDEAS =20 The github was updated to have a separate file with a version of the = first charter for your reference. =20 Propose that updates to the version2 of charter be done to recapture the = focus of version1 and share it here on the alias. =20 Thanks Padma =20 =20 On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) = > wrote: On 6/7/17, 5:46 PM, "Ideas on behalf of Alvaro Retana (aretana)" = on behalf of = aretana@cisco.com > wrote: =20 Dear IDEAS list: =20 First of all, I want to thank the proponents and everyone who = participated in last week=E2=80=99s BOF in Prague. Special thanks to = the BOF Chairs! =20 > The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, and it was decided=20 > to go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99. Congratulations! >=20 > There are however some concerns that we need you (proponents/ > participants/authors) to address at the BoF. Based on that, we should = > ideally be able to take some action=E2=80=A6 From my point of view, = the success=20 > of the BoF should be measured by whether we have the necessary=20 > information to make the correct decision. =20 The consensus among the Chairs and the IESG/IAB is that the materials = presented at the BOF resulted in the feeling that there is something to = be done here, but that =E2=80=9Csomething=E2=80=9D is not clear. In = part, this impression comes from the wide-ranging discussion =E2=80=93 = in part from the fact that most of the technical discussions have so far = not been held on the list. To paraphrase one of the participants: = =E2=80=9CI know what I want, and I kind of know what others = want=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 =20 What are the next steps? I would like to see more discussions and = participation on the list, to reflect the interest in the room =E2=80=93 = some of that is starting to happen already. =20 I don=E2=80=99t think that this effort would necessarily benefit from = the BOF result being =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s try it again next = time=E2=80=9D. Alternatively, I am willing to sponsor a focused WG = proposal [*] to define a framework that reflects consensus on what is = expected from the mapping system, the questions around identity = persistence, privacy, etc. I note that the BOF proposal [1] included = precisely a framework as milestones=E2=80=A6 =20 =3D=3D=3D Milestones Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework August 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG =3D=3D=3D =20 =E2=80=A6but the current proposed charter [2] does not reflect that. =20 If the group has the interest to follow this focused path, please start = the discussion around an updated proposed charter. If we settle on the = text quickly, we should be able to take a proposal through the process = (long) before the next IETF. I would hope for an aggressive timeline in = completing that piece of work. =20 Thanks! =20 Alvaro. =20 =20 [*] Obviously, the normal approval process would be followed: = IESG/IAB/community review, etc. [1] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/=20 [2] https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal=20 _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01D30851.B81392A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Padma, = Alvaro,

 

I looked at the charter version on the github.=C2=A0 = Charter-version1.txt does not reflect the latest version that we had = discussed in Prague.=C2=A0 The latest version had been pruned down = significantly over that, in an effort to try and create sharper focus. = =C2=A0Of course, further work is still required, but many of the earlier = items, such as metadata support, endpoint grouping support, DDoS = considerations were already removed (but show in = Charter-version1.txt).=C2=A0

 

Also posted = on github is IDEAS-charter.txt; this is probably the version that we = should discuss.=C2=A0 But it is not clear and I find it very confusing = what is supposed to be the most current version and the one that we = should be discussing updates on.=C2=A0 If it is = =E2=80=9CIDEAS-charter.txt=E2=80=9D, I find = =E2=80=9CCharter-version1.txt=E2=80=9D a distraction; can we mark it as = historic or such, or remove it, just so we are all on the same page what = the current baseline is that we are discussing?=C2=A0

 

What is the = way forward here =E2=80=93 how will we refine the charter; should we = make edits on github or have the discussion on text snippets here on the = mailer?=C2=A0 Who holds the editor=E2=80=99s pen?

 

Thanks

--- = Alex

 

 

From: = Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma = Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 11:37 = AM
To: Alvaro Retana (aretana) = <aretana@cisco.com>
Cc: = ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF = 99

 

Dear Alvaro and IDEAS

 

The github was updated to have a separate file with a = version of the first charter for your = reference.

 

Propose that updates to the version2 of charter be = done to recapture the focus of version1 and share it here on the = alias.

 

Thanks

Padma

 

 

On Fri, = Jul 28, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana@cisco.com> = wrote:

On 6/7/17, = 5:46 PM, "Ideas on behalf of Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <ideas-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of aretana@cisco.com> wrote:

 <= /o:p>

Dear IDEAS = list:

 <= /o:p>

First of = all, I want to thank the proponents and everyone who participated in = last week=E2=80=99s BOF in Prague.  Special thanks to the BOF = Chairs!

 <= /o:p>

> The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, = and it was decided

> to go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF = 99.  Congratulations!

>

> There are however some concerns that we need = you (proponents/

> participants/authors) to address at the = BoF.  Based on that, we should

> ideally be able to take some action=E2=80=A6 = >From my point of view, the success

> of the BoF should be measured by whether we = have the necessary

> information to make the correct = decision.

 

The = consensus among the Chairs and the IESG/IAB is that the materials = presented at the BOF resulted in the feeling that there is something to = be done here, but that =E2=80=9Csomething=E2=80=9D is not clear.  = In part, this impression comes from the wide-ranging discussion = =E2=80=93 in part from the fact that most of the technical discussions = have so far not been held on the list.  To paraphrase one of the = participants: =E2=80=9CI know what I want, and I kind of know what = others want=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6

 <= /o:p>

What are = the next steps?  I would like to see more discussions and = participation on the list, to reflect the interest in the room =E2=80=93 = some of that is starting to happen already.

 <= /o:p>

I = don=E2=80=99t think that this effort would necessarily benefit from the = BOF result being =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s try it again next = time=E2=80=9D.  Alternatively, I am willing to sponsor a focused WG = proposal [*] to define a framework that reflects consensus on what is = expected from the mapping system, the questions around identity = persistence, privacy, etc.  I note that the BOF proposal [1] = included precisely a framework as milestones=E2=80=A6

 <= /o:p>

=3D=3D=3D

Milestones

Dec 2017 = Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework

May 2018 = WGLC for the Identity Services framework

August 2018 = Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG

=3D=3D=3D

 <= /o:p>

=E2=80=A6but= the current proposed charter [2] does not reflect = that.

 <= /o:p>

If the = group has the interest to follow this focused path, please start the = discussion around an updated proposed charter.  If we settle on the = text quickly, we should be able to take a proposal through the process = (long) before the next IETF.  I would hope for an aggressive = timeline in completing that piece of work.

 <= /o:p>

Thanks!=

 <= /o:p>

Alvaro.=

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

[*] = Obviously, the normal approval process would be followed: = IESG/IAB/community review, etc.

[1] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ =

[2] https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal =


______________________________________= _________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

 

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X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:45:00 -0000 Uma, On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote: >> Identity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple identifiers with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply anonymization schemes such as was mentioned by Dino), >> and so it is easier to administer the overall system (such as, firewall rules, which would be nice if you could avoid having to update them every time an endpoint's IP address changes). > Yes, this makes it easier to manage the system, but also makes it potentially easier to attack. If someone were to consider enabling a new general possibly, global identity in my the network then the first question I'd ask is what are the ramifications if the users' identities are compromised. > +1 > > Just to add a bit more: > > 1. Identity is entry point to the system (GRIDS) and mainly for authentication (mutual authentication perhaps) > - we can choose multiple AUTH methods (not necessarily restricted X.509) which suits for the entity (low-power/high-power IOT, vehicular node etc..) Who needs to authenticate whom? Updating the mapping system would obviously require strong credentials so security is needing there, but that is part of the control protocol between the mapping system and the network manager (e.g. MME probably in 3gpp). Devices already have identities at layer 2 that are used when joining the network (e.g. EAP in Ethernet, SIM). > 2. Identity is not in the data plane and peer wouldn't know. Peer knows only one of the (long-lived) identifier like EID/HIT and the same would be used to LOC resolution. Yes, that's the essence of identifier/locator protocols. The fact that identity is not part of the existing identifier/locator protocols is a good property. > 3. Identity will have life cycle (can be changed with overhead of moving the rules) > That's complexity that needs to be justified by the value we get from introducing identity in IP networking. Tom From nobody Sat Jul 29 14:11:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D11A0131E86 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gOzlYExY3sM6 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E229B1287A5 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l7so100490775iof.1 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8vCE7LUp6rGbT/3KfFmfDioS3bIJpdelSPDl2O80aF4=; b=ol5ZZq9ppG0JzMd4uhiXrUy3GlW6bXpNIvb7MHr6hFzGqH0hgZAKj7tnUcquRxUrEe pNJe8spZY+End+sWEcSf8Kga0nCS4EvXpFNaSOoXqycXDhWhvZ9J0hh34097czQRGLsy tQMQ7Rc4QT7nnmvEaBEmlfKDgX8eOZY0NrTMmzX6R1axKDpRwwTEDYgng/ZtQxGtg22K 7DXJPxm28rAiCuWj/txgvh5+QZEDolXw2z2XxPGt2MzAu3KNbpUxClKPhlpe+7gXtAtv wXwSzSDgvnmYDEeik3nsVpZcxZr6jAj+0PdYDNoXDmODG8BX0aKY0UnfY5QT3PCN4PwT y3tA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8vCE7LUp6rGbT/3KfFmfDioS3bIJpdelSPDl2O80aF4=; b=uoChV+SlBXEUaNHvJEKDi3bo4Us+3g8HCdePvHzhegx+e0CHdFSLWQUkFEM5AQ4oZd oBIMt5tXZSYMwRqxZokWwCFGnmKtdl0j0pEIieRQJ3M69VO112TUyG64DmsBhe/G78HE IJtSWewOLgbjN+xvkSHHOSEMHtWzJk2dT1ChqZaDNXFA0YVbBOysctSxQDBj1u5KOvdW ImAaVhhlZTjgu9Lt/zwF549b0dcBHUdZPH1l9cGeP9rEtdeyqG8EkTUfZ/fKHqCjNi7D VmuJoGPjACO3GUZxEORo/OXYb54BOKJhrFmqTr8oWb+Yb+LkJvQNJPUnZk9xRZSGTWte +gBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110mi17TCe9O/+dOTaIA8siChFkgExYLg/b9dQS3kj0pS4/jiRYl H+2O9qP7+Epxj+o1fQVUOIY/Ux0N6YyG X-Received: by 10.107.55.66 with SMTP id e63mr13062021ioa.118.1501362697257; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.59.9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A37DD3@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: william manning Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 14:11:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Uma Chunduri , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114accb23fc87305557b3ed5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:11:40 -0000 --001a114accb23fc87305557b3ed5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Isn't part of the problem that we are still agreeing to be bound to the locator/identifier split (as outlined in the ilnp and lisp work) and harkening back to the ideas documented by Saltzer in 1982 and published as RFC 1498. not to add a new wrinkle at this stage, but it seems that when all you have is a locator and an identifier, we won't get very far. A few years back, I proposed adding an additional element as the tie breaker. Would there be interest in talking about that idea at this time? /Wm On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Tom Herbert wrote: > Uma, > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Uma Chunduri > wrote: > >> Identity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple > identifiers with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply > anonymization schemes such as was mentioned by Dino), > >> and so it is easier to administer the overall system (such as, firewall > rules, which would be nice if you could avoid having to update them every > time an endpoint's IP address changes). > > > Yes, this makes it easier to manage the system, but also makes it > potentially easier to attack. If someone were to consider enabling a > new general possibly, global identity in my the network then the first > question I'd ask is what are the ramifications if the users' > identities are compromised. > > > +1 > > > > Just to add a bit more: > > > > 1. Identity is entry point to the system (GRIDS) and mainly for > authentication (mutual authentication perhaps) > > - we can choose multiple AUTH methods (not necessarily > restricted X.509) which suits for the entity (low-power/high-power IOT, > vehicular node etc..) > > Who needs to authenticate whom? Updating the mapping system would > obviously require strong credentials so security is needing there, but > that is part of the control protocol between the mapping system and > the network manager (e.g. MME probably in 3gpp). Devices already have > identities at layer 2 that are used when joining the network (e.g. EAP > in Ethernet, SIM). > > > 2. Identity is not in the data plane and peer wouldn't know. Peer knows > only one of the (long-lived) identifier like EID/HIT and the same would be > used to LOC resolution. > > Yes, that's the essence of identifier/locator protocols. The fact that > identity is not part of the existing identifier/locator protocols is a > good property. > > > 3. Identity will have life cycle (can be changed with overhead of moving > the rules) > > > That's complexity that needs to be justified by the value we get from > introducing identity in IP networking. > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --001a114accb23fc87305557b3ed5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Isn't part of the problem that we are still agreeing t= o be bound to the locator/identifier split (as outlined in the ilnp and lis= p work) and harkening back to the ideas documented by=C2=A0Saltzer in 1982 and published as RFC = 1498. not to add a new wrinkle at this stage, but it seems that when all = you have is a locator and an identifier, we won't get very far. A few= years back, I proposed adding an additional element as the tie breaker. <= /span>
Would ther= e be interest in talking about that idea at this time?

/Wm
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Sat, Jul 29, 20= 17 at 10:44 AM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
Uma,

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:
>> Identity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple = identifiers with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply an= onymization schemes such as was mentioned by Dino),
>> and so it is easier to administer the overall system (such as, fir= ewall rules, which would be nice if you could avoid having to update them e= very time an endpoint's IP address changes).
>
Yes, this makes it easier to manage the system, but also makes it potentially easier to attack. If someone were to consider enabling a
new general possibly, global identity in my the network then the first
question I'd ask is what are the ramifications if the users'
identities are compromised.

> +1
>
> Just to add a bit more:
>
> 1. Identity is entry point to the system (GRIDS) and mainly for authen= tication (mutual authentication perhaps)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- we can choose multiple AUTH methods= (not necessarily restricted X.509) which suits for the entity (low-power/h= igh-power=C2=A0 IOT, vehicular node etc..)

Who needs to authenticate whom? Updating the mapping system would obviously require strong credentials so security is needing there, but
that is part of the control protocol between the mapping system and
the network manager (e.g. MME probably in 3gpp). Devices already have
identities at layer 2 that are used when joining the network (e.g. EAP
in Ethernet, SIM).

> 2. Identity is not in the data plane and peer wouldn't know. Peer = knows only one of the (long-lived) identifier like EID/HIT and the same wou= ld be used to LOC resolution.

Yes, that's the essence of identifier/locator protocols. The fac= t that
identity is not part of the existing identifier/locator protocols is a
good property.

> 3. Identity will have life cycle (can be changed with overhead of movi= ng the rules)
>
That's complexity that needs to be justified by the value we get= from
introducing identity in IP networking.

Tom

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--001a114accb23fc87305557b3ed5-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 07:19:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51488132329 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r3NDnlDj2Kwc for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x243.google.com (mail-pg0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0580A13231F for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x243.google.com with SMTP id 125so17475451pgi.5 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BU3z4j4HvbZRnWqSYuXlU8u7IqpzGlXJ0D4NaKJg60E=; b=Don8Kxs9DK1ROsRUmSyZfThf98Kc2qCouWuhvPqEsGYU18D+ecuhrxL9XHTuJIJXPF vZ8s01F8dcbqQckl88ufu0DKMIbXP44ZlHN6tZiZ53ihFRtWt5irZWW+046C/kATAfqX dYvSGflyT84Lwk2Lym9D9azCCePR6REUBAtyBtIT+ROS9L0n5ahPT9vuO0YVZcSWWiW3 zUkNqCpaUhhm+xBqawzvLVR5cP2XKv1PdWg7w1VnDlS8JK0gNSEV7l1thUoj1VekkOp2 NzNP3xjQVx1uK+BewYHnDQKPawve6fCKswRmmlIbh3St3TQbMDf62/K5nF+K3nuN2LVe Besg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BU3z4j4HvbZRnWqSYuXlU8u7IqpzGlXJ0D4NaKJg60E=; b=K94qTmMpgd33gH0k4sv4hIsoHMqYYprWrVhfGCNPPgtuSPS3j/uRCXKb5hxKLUQ4CH OquBNVkaBFzdhblHeo+oXD6C+CZPZLFaI99aAWkNU9yLAR5TnDyqSLfq+fFpDlQpyAHc aIRx0gWHAP5ZMm9iyQQLj0AMF6GOLmnQThAoZ6NNhhP2Y/pjL4uxyZs6XQJhBk4qlSrS 8mU2xBDNuDZSC3yzBdxlKnMIVw9PFQlM6pmeTJLyrKbnhS4EcdGdGrne3TS+5WxLSX94 IfZob4bfaw75qQEe+KKyqBcPPg4symI2SrMfRDMW4LXcJ8+V1fBeR1DywSgAAdC3apwV gDtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111v44AKuq09DyuG3Ooa45T1TattlJozPLPvlEPhDTu0vKq+X3RJ At/cNZqy9XBHYA== X-Received: by 10.98.11.65 with SMTP id t62mr1371074pfi.119.1501510760534; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-73-70-190-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.70.190.41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t186sm54685137pgc.28.2017.07.31.07.19.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3D4083D5-1A6C-4D8B-8E2F-51414B434926 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) In-Reply-To: <001801d3088c$6470e400$2d52ac00$@clemm.org> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:19:18 -0700 Cc: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5D308F19-CD63-4C6F-966B-EA00F27189BB@gmail.com> References: <2D8B5CDE-ABFC-4BB5-849D-B1F6BD4D7B91@cisco.com> <001801d3088c$6470e400$2d52ac00$@clemm.org> To: Alexander Clemm Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:19:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3D4083D5-1A6C-4D8B-8E2F-51414B434926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2017, at 10:01, Alexander Clemm wrote: >=20 > Hi Padma, Alvaro, > =20 > I looked at the charter version on the github. Charter-version1.txt does n= ot reflect the latest version that we had discussed in Prague. The latest v= ersion had been pruned down significantly over that, in an effort to try and= create sharper focus. Of course, further work is still required, but many o= f the earlier items, such as metadata support, endpoint grouping support, DD= oS considerations were already removed (but show in Charter-version1.txt).=20= > =20 > Also posted on github is IDEAS-charter.txt; this is probably the version t= hat we should discuss. But it is not clear and I find it very confusing wha= t is supposed to be the most current version and the one that we should be d= iscussing updates on. If it is =E2=80=9CIDEAS-charter.txt=E2=80=9D, I find =E2= =80=9CCharter-version1.txt=E2=80=9D a distraction; can we mark it as histori= c or such, or remove it, just so we are all on the same page what the curren= t baseline is that we are discussing?=20 > =20 Alex can mark it but it has to be there. > What is the way forward here =E2=80=93 how will we refine the charter; sho= uld we make edits on github or have the discussion on text snippets here on t= he mailer? Who holds the editor=E2=80=99s pen? > =20 Edits on got hub fine but suggest we also send on alias.=20 Per Alvaro's email the changes should be to reflect delivery of the framewor= k. Padma > Thanks > --- Alex > =20 > =20 > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esna= ult > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 11:37 AM > To: Alvaro Retana (aretana) > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99 > =20 > Dear Alvaro and IDEAS > =20 > The github was updated to have a separate file with a version of the first= charter for your reference. > =20 > Propose that updates to the version2 of charter be done to recapture the f= ocus of version1 and share it here on the alias. > =20 > Thanks > Padma > =20 > =20 > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/7/17, 5:46 PM, "Ideas on behalf of Alvaro Retana (aretana)" wrote: > =20 > Dear IDEAS list: > =20 > First of all, I want to thank the proponents and everyone who participated= in last week=E2=80=99s BOF in Prague. Special thanks to the BOF Chairs! > =20 > > The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, and it was decided > > to go forward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99. Congratulations! > > > > There are however some concerns that we need you (proponents/ > > participants/authors) to address at the BoF. Based on that, we should > > ideally be able to take some action=E2=80=A6 =46rom my point of view, th= e success > > of the BoF should be measured by whether we have the necessary > > information to make the correct decision. > =20 > The consensus among the Chairs and the IESG/IAB is that the materials pres= ented at the BOF resulted in the feeling that there is something to be done h= ere, but that =E2=80=9Csomething=E2=80=9D is not clear. In part, this impre= ssion comes from the wide-ranging discussion =E2=80=93 in part from the fact= that most of the technical discussions have so far not been held on the lis= t. To paraphrase one of the participants: =E2=80=9CI know what I want, and I= kind of know what others want=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 > =20 > What are the next steps? I would like to see more discussions and partici= pation on the list, to reflect the interest in the room =E2=80=93 some of th= at is starting to happen already. > =20 > I don=E2=80=99t think that this effort would necessarily benefit from the B= OF result being =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s try it again next time=E2=80=9D. Alt= ernatively, I am willing to sponsor a focused WG proposal [*] to define a fr= amework that reflects consensus on what is expected from the mapping system,= the questions around identity persistence, privacy, etc. I note that the B= OF proposal [1] included precisely a framework as milestones=E2=80=A6 > =20 > =3D=3D=3D > Milestones > Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > August 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > =3D=3D=3D > =20 > =E2=80=A6but the current proposed charter [2] does not reflect that. > =20 > If the group has the interest to follow this focused path, please start th= e discussion around an updated proposed charter. If we settle on the text q= uickly, we should be able to take a proposal through the process (long) befo= re the next IETF. I would hope for an aggressive timeline in completing tha= t piece of work. > =20 > Thanks! > =20 > Alvaro. > =20 > =20 > [*] Obviously, the normal approval process would be followed: IESG/IAB/com= munity review, etc. > [1] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ > [2] https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-3D4083D5-1A6C-4D8B-8E2F-51414B434926 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2017, at 10:01, Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org> wrote:

Hi Padma, Alvaro,

 <= /o:p>

I looked at the charter version on the githu= b.  Charter-version1.txt does not reflect the latest version that we ha= d discussed in Prague.  The latest version had been pruned down signifi= cantly over that, in an effort to try and create sharper focus.  Of cou= rse, further work is still required, but many of the earlier items, such as m= etadata support, endpoint grouping support, DDoS considerations were already= removed (but show in Charter-version1.txt). 

 

Also posted on githu= b is IDEAS-charter.txt; this is probably the version that we should discuss.=   But it is not clear and I find it very confusing what is supposed to b= e the most current version and the one that we should be discussing updates o= n.  If it is =E2=80=9CIDEAS-charter.txt=E2=80=9D, I find =E2=80=9CChart= er-version1.txt=E2=80=9D a distraction; can we mark it as historic or such, o= r remove it, just so we are all on the same page what the current baseline i= s that we are discussing? 

&= nbsp;

Alex can mark it but it has to be th= ere.

What is the way forward here =E2=80=93 how will we refine= the charter; should we make edits on github or have the discussion on text s= nippets here on the mailer?  Who holds the editor=E2=80=99s pen?

 

Edits on got hub fine but suggest we also send on alias. 

Per Alvaro's email the changes should be to reflect delive= ry of the framework.

Padma

Thanks

--- Alex

 

 

From: Ideas [ma= ilto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-EsnaultSent: Friday, July 28, 2017 11:37 AM
To: Alvaro Retana (ar= etana) <aretana@cisco.com>Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subje= ct: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS BoF at IETF 99

 

Dear Alvaro and IDEA= S

 

The github was updated to have a separate file w= ith a version of the first charter for your reference.

<= div>

 

Propose that updates to the version2 of charter be done to recapture t= he focus of version1 and share it here on the alias.

 

Thanks

Padma<= /p>

 

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal"> 

On Fri= , Jul 28, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana@cisco.com> wrote:

On 6= /7/17, 5:46 PM, "Ideas on behalf of Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <ideas-bounces@ietf.org o= n behalf of aretana@c= isco.com> wrote:

 

Dear IDEAS list:

 

Firs= t of all, I want to thank the proponents and everyone who participated in la= st week=E2=80=99s BOF in Prague.  Special thanks to the BOF Chairs!

 

> The IAB/IESG held our BoF Coordination Call today, and it was deci= ded

> to go for= ward with an IDEAS BoF at IETF 99.  Congratulations!<= /p>

>

> There are however some concerns that we need you (proponents/

> participants/au= thors) to address at the BoF.  Based on that, we should

> ideally be able to take some= action=E2=80=A6 =46rom my point of view, the success

=

> of the BoF should be measured by wh= ether we have the necessary

> information to make the correct decision.

 <= o:p>

The consensus among the Chairs and the IESG/IAB is tha= t the materials presented at the BOF resulted in the feeling that there is s= omething to be done here, but that =E2=80=9Csomething=E2=80=9D is not clear.=   In part, this impression comes from the wide-ranging discussion =E2=80= =93 in part from the fact that most of the technical discussions have so far= not been held on the list.  To paraphrase one of the participants: =E2= =80=9CI know what I want, and I kind of know what others want=E2=80=9D=E2=80= =A6

 

What are the next steps= ?  I would like to see more discussions and participation on the list, t= o reflect the interest in the room =E2=80=93 some of that is starting to hap= pen already.

 

I don=E2=80=99= t think that this effort would necessarily benefit from the BOF result being= =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s try it again next time=E2=80=9D.  Alternatively= , I am willing to sponsor a focused WG proposal [*] to define a framework th= at reflects consensus on what is expected from the mapping system, the quest= ions around identity persistence, privacy, etc.  I note that the BOF pr= oposal [1] included precisely a framework as milestones=E2=80=A6<= /p>

 

=3D=3D=3D

Mile= stones

Dec 2017 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Servic= es framework

May 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services f= ramework

August 2018 Send Identity Services framework d= raft to the IESG

=3D=3D=3D

 = ;

=E2=80=A6but the current proposed charter [2] does n= ot reflect that.

 

If the g= roup has the interest to follow this focused path, please start the discussi= on around an updated proposed charter.  If we settle on the text quickl= y, we should be able to take a proposal through the process (long) before th= e next IETF.  I would hope for an aggressive timeline in completing tha= t piece of work.

 

Thanks!<= o:p>

 

Alvaro.

 

 

[*] Obviously,= the normal approval process would be followed: IESG/IAB/community review, e= tc.

[1] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ <= /p>

[2] https://github.com/IETF-IDEAS/Charter-Proposal


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