From nobody Wed Aug 2 00:05:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89DB1317B1 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8YSL-4yvaDd for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com (mail-qk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B137124C27 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id d136so21911401qkg.3 for ; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 00:05:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ubztlrL+QfXoLc3Eav3+Cex4PgywAfu2k3SJP8SO7gg=; b=OII/g2HRCpgUD7LcLG6lnnrGKT+bsIvgb00pRRVxm03FIBncr/XKK8rIG8Ekoxw/rn hxA23Svjv+54g1g1EldWrSIc01R3YokQmwaesoQOhOPy4t9FcBjckDeQIDDU7YMW1IFG u8F6RTzkBggycptsbCPSpzgpZdwd1TpsMBwyjLgnS1FkjRzs2in5fJyV9PnOPQQZoJxx fm4zguWiOM/BBOKC2lvrQuWg6KpFLWPI537RjJNiB+5UNchKWJ50JLb5TrRHI0BaSfFB Cuzx/lPT975aJRix9ILImZnRFwLrXfAKahajYXZPPzY7oNhPJJMqGPr3NxkQsCrsXazy XCOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ubztlrL+QfXoLc3Eav3+Cex4PgywAfu2k3SJP8SO7gg=; b=FTc1kqp1ti7WlHA28qF4+0e+7Q8t+CRz1rVhyatggbMBVai3oX8tA4xo7C2jrFNJMk mUruEO3oaly3U5KvmAveJM4eCbazn5Lfjfsf8c2bckqCpUGMP0Qrw4e7umuzIzJiCVvX UuE8EbpTTnW9V0xqFkfif0khFEmfTLhkODnxFy+705BkTG2XrF0WI8AI4u7XILVLgC/L MompNrOzWPdmt8pzOXE7J+ukaZOEWdkU/3MaTpTLlURAmWwDz7cnmB++s32AT5+Wa1ma 9kUuLEnHHYORmAYA5CwopafgshDOkMwnQiJ1pn8rJHoYj5h8ALp1AanTV7ESklfrE4Dz zMxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113//fjD9WXJwyLJqFMZYjuFBj29N78H294BwKU240IL2ysizq9Q OekX0z4SWM/ZcJUEDH7ldgZ032vJtRNS X-Received: by 10.55.16.161 with SMTP id 33mr29886703qkq.312.1501657513075; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 00:05:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:05:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:05:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113b0b78a426860555bfe265" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 07:05:16 -0000 --001a113b0b78a426860555bfe265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ideas Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from our BOF chairs and AD. Your input and support greatly appreciated. Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D Proposed Charter Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier split. This split enables networks provide communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular point in time. Examples of the problem space are: - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped location). Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control over who can look up the identifier-locator binding information for example. - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing services for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols. Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the framework: -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers. -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..) -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming...) -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. WG deliverables include: Generic Identity Services Framework WG sustaining/informational documents may include: These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: -Problem statement -Use cases -Requirements - Applications of the architecture for use cases Milestones March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG --001a113b0b78a426860555bfe265 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ideas

<= font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Please find below the updated ch= arter that includes some feedback from our BOF chairs and AD.=C2=A0<= /div>

Your input and support greatly= appreciated.
Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias.

=

IDEAS: = =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed= Charter

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network = solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobili= ty and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover t= he network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2=A0However, additi= onal infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapp= ing of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. =C2=A0In addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier spli= t. This split enables networks provide communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular point in tim= e.


Examples= of the problem space are:

- Privac= y: =C2=A0The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody = to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining th= eir identity and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices = to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

- Access= control : An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped location). Therefore, it is desirable t= o have a certain degree of control over who can look up the identifier-locato= r binding information for example.

=C2=A0

- Common= infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and consistent basic networking polic= ies that can apply at the level of entity reduces operational complexity associ= ated with managing services for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services= and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-loca= tor mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.=

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is=C2=A0chartered=C2=A0to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and prov= ides services to address those requirements. We refer to the framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0

The work= ing group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework an= d identifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specific= ally, the IDEAS WG is=C2=A0chartered=C2=A0to work on these areas for the framewor= k:

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

-Registr= ation and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

-Identit= y authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..) =

-Identif= ier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming...)

-Definit= ion and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, pe= rmit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80= =A6)

-Identit= y and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)

-Definit= ion of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

-Managem= ent aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

=C2=A0

The IDEA= S WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already devel= oped when appropriate.

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework=C2=A0

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:=C2=A0

These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draf= t form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

-Problem statement=C2=A0

-Use cases

-Require= ments

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Mileston= es=C2=A0

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework=

August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework

December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0
--001a113b0b78a426860555bfe265-- From nobody Wed Aug 2 00:32:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D52212EC3F for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cacX9E0zGTfj for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (mx04.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2A76124234 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 00:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hsi-kbw-078-043-213-241.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [78.43.213.241]) by mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA4431DBC5 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:32:16 +0200 (CEST) To: ideas@ietf.org References: From: Michael Menth Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:32:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 07:32:22 -0000 Hi Padma, all, Am 02.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Padma Pillay-Esnault: > Dear Ideas > > Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from > our BOF chairs and AD. > > Your input and support greatly appreciated. > Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. > > > IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS” > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to > address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery > service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In > addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of > identity-identifier split. This split enables networks provide > communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular > identifier used at any particular point in time. > > > Examples of the problem space are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > while retaining their identity and associated policies. This indirection > should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network > information of end devices to eavesdroppers. The last paragraph is not fully clear. > > > > - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped > location). Not fully clear. Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of > control over who can look up the identifier-locator binding information > for example. > > > > - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of > entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing services > for individual endpoints. This is not a full sentence. Meaning? Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings > reduces operational and deployment complexity. Is that the suggestion to have one mapping system for both loc-id and idy-idf mapping? > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). The term Generic Identity Services may be a bit misleading. I perceived that GRIDS stands primarily for the idy-idf mapping system but I understand by the expansion of the acronym services based on idy. There is some potential for mistake. > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > > > -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > associated identifiers. > > -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming...) > > -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability > to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…) > > -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols > > -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. - Access restriction for lookup of identity-identifier information That is probably the hardest part if scalability and privacy are expected. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when > appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained > in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > Best wishes, Michael > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Wed Aug 2 09:46:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99011317C1 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 229ySvWlN54i for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x233.google.com (mail-wr0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 950CF126E64 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x233.google.com with SMTP id 12so20988402wrb.1 for ; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 09:46:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VJAxYig5E82aOnHwLcvPPPfQhBrScPJzD/oyapz3aAg=; b=jeKFeOkimtep5WhPfCRk7200E5pdgdY3hvBD+oG1Oiz6yxcMPUtvE60NQqvi1vp1Pu RBnlRFNGOm4ZivGGQeyc9HVri/SjwC2wWv3ZLqEm/q89lY7pueBf1GyO3gibcnGuYtwa DQxlFhUyBeVHqsT8VgE4DCfIw+GbW7IhwJCuoOajpaxYfOpKc4qM4pu8JNlr6uxzWPEi S4fz59Dnrx9Ue8xBgN3O3K8/b+ZWdraR892qSbm0pNq8vfew4g4FBIzB4snSlU0xQRH4 kxYmkyVu4b2vrkNOlvmaj1NqsJwaqHlWp+3bDiwUAir9peGB/C9emeXUeiuZ0v1yczw2 zuQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VJAxYig5E82aOnHwLcvPPPfQhBrScPJzD/oyapz3aAg=; b=T9M0uDhpzlmpOV+zq2rUNul1zx8Jttnd2QTn+upQSjv3ND0reapL2d+fUaB1Ey8w49 hyx0cYdm5dkJ1Di12maZdo9aDzqOdzeYaltITdZDyHZ2YOOMIifNFKAw2aoVOeIYNXWp bfeutOs2Il09mDaf7MqGUHzx8u2vUOkPEKkhhtgnFluh2ZH3slyZHxRdcf2xLxuCCc6t MWAeU0TdA4Nlf2jD6yR6ox+UrLhZ20OR8sx86PxoZZwVFe89LPbTmJn6RGR6CSli3EVt voEFbsSv4yi1jk6LlznIoQykyo582LFfPCPWhh+wis1DrefZ6z/r+ElTjFvFNCOXX9gE Zi8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1124yehFO7bw2/uzZWheZWApazIXgyi8vucwKs+YDq/Y8f3CfUkk MsIy5ePWEGTfCnTcHxxXTdVDjNv1B6uE X-Received: by 10.223.150.200 with SMTP id u66mr21187927wrb.216.1501692377824; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 09:46:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:46:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:46:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 16:46:22 -0000 On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:05 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Dear Ideas > > Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from ou= r > BOF chairs and AD. > > Your input and support greatly appreciated. > Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. > > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation a= re > increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologi= cal > location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. This is true, but there is currently no common IETF protocol to do this. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. My understanding is that developing such a protocol would be the goal of the WG, if so it should be explicitly stated here in the charter. > However, additional > infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new > requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition, > identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier > split. This split enables networks provide communication services for > endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular > point in time. > This seems weak to me. Identifier/locator protocols have already been successfully deployed without the concept of identity. I don't see that where lack of the identity has prevented networks to provide communication services (although I'm not sure what the scope of "communication services" is). I think a clearer rationalization is needed for identity. > > Examples of the problem space are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. This indirection should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of > end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped location= ). > Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control over who c= an > look up the identifier-locator binding information for example. > > > > - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of entit= y > reduces operational complexity associated with managing services for > individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that > apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduc= es > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op > a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides > services to address those requirements. We refer to the framework providi= ng > the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). The use of terms identifier and identity seems a little haphazard here and elsewhere. For instance, if the working group is chartered to "chartered to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols" then should the WG group be Identifier Enabled Networks and the services be Generic Identifier Services? I realize this is only nomenclature, but I think if the implication is that this creates a required dependency on identity for existing identifier/locator protocols this could meet resistance. Tom > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > > > -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated > identifiers. > > -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, upd= ate > of information for identifiers..) > > -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming...) > > -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particu= lar > endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split > protocols > > -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n a > draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the effort= s > of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Wed Aug 2 15:57:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E750129B40 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 15:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z6jCytcLvzVS for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 15:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E076129B35 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 15:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLV36666; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 22:57:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 23:57:04 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 15:57:01 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxqY4A Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 22:57:01 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.77] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6DSJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.598258C2.0074, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 98abfae448e060692dd463358253cba2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JTZY53eH9FZX for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42FCE131C89 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSP45615; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 23:09:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 00:09:58 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:09:53 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert , Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxvFWA///petA= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 23:09:52 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.77] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.59825BC7.011B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 01874c2f14a2d2d979a2a83dc1fb3673 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 23:10:05 -0000 SGkgVG9tLA0KDQpPbmUgcmVzcG9uc2UgdG8geW91ciBzZWNvbmQgY29tbWVudCwgaW5saW5lLCA8 QUxFWD4NCg0KVGhhbmtzDQotLS0gQWxleA0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0K RnJvbTogSWRlYXMgW21haWx0bzppZGVhcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2Yg VG9tIEhlcmJlcnQNClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgQXVndXN0IDAyLCAyMDE3IDk6NDYgQU0NClRv OiBQYWRtYSBQaWxsYXktRXNuYXVsdCA8cGFkbWEuaWV0ZkBnbWFpbC5jb20+DQpDYzogaWRlYXNA aWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSWRlYXNdIFlvdXIgaW5wdXQgbmVlZGVkOiBDaGFydGVy IFByb3Bvc2FsDQoNCk9uIFdlZCwgQXVnIDIsIDIwMTcgYXQgMTI6MDUgQU0sIFBhZG1hIFBpbGxh eS1Fc25hdWx0IDxwYWRtYS5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IERlYXIgSWRlYXMNCj4N Cj4gUGxlYXNlIGZpbmQgYmVsb3cgdGhlIHVwZGF0ZWQgY2hhcnRlciB0aGF0IGluY2x1ZGVzIHNv bWUgZmVlZGJhY2sgZnJvbSANCj4gb3VyIEJPRiBjaGFpcnMgYW5kIEFELg0KPg0KPiBZb3VyIGlu cHV0IGFuZCBzdXBwb3J0IGdyZWF0bHkgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZWQuDQo+IFBsZWFzZSBzZW5kIHlvdXIg 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X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KSWRlYXMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpJZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZGVhcw0K From nobody Wed Aug 2 16:22:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33241294A2 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:22:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pt_wMjWE_0Jv for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 006891241FC for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSP46618; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 23:22:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 00:22:21 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:22:17 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Tom Herbert , Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+0+n6iz69UEiIGWbG5Kn8mKJxvFWA///4QfA= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 23:22:17 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A389F4@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.59825EAE.0133, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 01874c2f14a2d2d979a2a83dc1fb3673 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 23:22:26 -0000 CT4NCgk+IFByb3Bvc2VkIENoYXJ0ZXINCgk+DQoJPg0KCT4NCgk+IE5ldHdvcmsgc29sdXRpb25z IGJhc2VkIG9uIHRoZSBjb25jZXB0IG9mIElkZW50aWZpZXItTG9jYXRvciANCgk+IHNlcGFyYXRp b24gYXJlIGluY3JlYXNpbmdseSBjb25zaWRlcmVkIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgbW9iaWxpdHkgYW5kIA0K CT4gbXVsdGktaG9taW5nIGFjcm9zcyBoZXRlcm9nZW5lb3VzIGFjY2VzcyBuZXR3b3Jrcy4gSWRl bnRpZmllci1sb2NhdG9yIA0KCT4gc2VwYXJhdGlvbiBwcm90b2NvbHMgcmVxdWlyZSBpbmZyYXN0 cnVjdHVyZSB0aGF0IGFsbG93cyBub2RlcyB0byANCgk+IGRpc2NvdmVyIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIHRv cG9sb2dpY2FsDQoJPiBsb2NhdGlvbihzKSBvZiBpdHMgcGVlcihzKSBmb3IgcGFja2V0IGRlbGl2 ZXJ5Lg0KDQoJVGhpcyBpcyB0cnVlLCBidXQgdGhlcmUgaXMgY3VycmVudGx5IG5vIGNvbW1vbiBJ RVRGIHByb3RvY29sIHRvIGRvIHRoaXMuIEEgY29tbW9uIGluZnJhc3RydWN0dXJlIGFuZCBwcm90 b2NvbCBjb3VsZCBiZSB1c2VkIGJ5IGlkZW50aWZpZXIvbG9jYXRvciBwcm90b2NvbHMgYXMgd2Vs bCBhcyBuZXR3b3JrIHZpcnR1YWxpemF0aW9uLiANCglNeSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIGlzIHRoYXQg ZGV2ZWxvcGluZyBzdWNoIGEgcHJvdG9jb2wgd291bGQgYmUgdGhlIGdvYWwgb2YgdGhlIFdHLCBp ZiBzbyBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgZXhwbGljaXRseSBzdGF0ZWQgaGVyZSBpbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlci4N Cg0KW1VtYV06IEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGlzLiAgVGhpcyBzaG91bGQgYmUgc3RhdGVkIGluIHRo ZSBkZWxpdmVyYWJsZXMgOW9yZGVyIGNhbiB2YXJ5KS4NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgVGhpcyBpcyBh bHNvIHJlZmVycmVkICBhcyBpbnRlci1ncmlkcyBwcm90b2NvbCBkZWZpbml0aW9uIGluIHRoZSBw cm9ibGVtIHN0YXRlbWVudCBzbGlkZXMgQElFVEY5OS4gDQoNCi0tDQpVbWEgQy4NCg0K From nobody Wed Aug 2 16:28:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192261321A9 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:28:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fBZKM3UYvuCa for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9E8C1241FC for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSP46565; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 23:21:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 00:21:46 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 16:21:30 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: william manning , Tom Herbert CC: Uma Chunduri , "ideas@ietf.org" , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Michael Menth Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? Thread-Index: AQHTB0wCgrudF1hEI06Ny+YHLnWD/6JpDoqAgAC/9AD//6LO0IAA0kwAgAFH74CAADm/AIAF9zZA Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 23:21:29 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBFB5@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A37DD3@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.77] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBFB5SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.59825E8C.002F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 2f403d5686c8c21db4edc3b48edc6500 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Aug 2017 16:39:44 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Michael Menth , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+0+n6iz69UEiIGWbG5Kn8mKJxIaAAgACUYrA= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 23:39:43 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A38A15@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.598262C8.0129, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 98abfae448e060692dd463358253cba2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 23:39:59 -0000 Hi Michael, Some comments/responses in-line [Uma]: -- Uma C. -----Original Message----- From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:33 AM To: ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Hi Padma, all, Am 02.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Padma Pillay-Esnault: > Dear Ideas >=20 > Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from=20 > our BOF chairs and AD. >=20 > Your input and support greatly appreciated. > Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. >=20 >=20 > IDEAS: "IDentity EnAbled networkS" >=20 > =20 >=20 > Proposed Charter >=20 > =20 >=20 > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator=20 > separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and=20 > multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator=20 > separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to=20 > discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet=20 > delivery. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol=20 > extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond=20 > the traditional discovery service and mapping of=20 > identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition,=20 > identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier=20 > split. This split enables networks provide communication services for=20 > endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular = point in time. >=20 >=20 > Examples of the problem space are: >=20 > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be=20 > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as=20 > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without=20 > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier=20 > while retaining their identity and associated policies. This=20 > indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal=20 > sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. The last paragraph is not fully clear. >=20 > =20 >=20 > - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the=20 > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped=20 > location). Not fully clear. Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of > control over who can look up the identifier-locator binding=20 > information for example. >=20 > =20 >=20 > - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and=20 > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of=20 > entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing=20 > services for individual endpoints. This is not a full sentence. Meaning? Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator=20 > mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. Is that the suggestion to have one mapping system for both loc-id and idy-i= df mapping? [Uma]: Having one mapping-system (at least deployed that way) for both IDf= /Loc and IDy/IDf has advantages w.r.t latency for lot of use cases.=20 Remember, there is a relevant operation for example, during location resolu= tion, if the sender identifier is verified against IDy/IDf to see if this= is allowed or not (or sender group). For this to happen having both (IDy/= IDf and IDf/Loc) together is definitely an advantage.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to=20 > develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and=20 > provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the=20 > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services=20 > (GRIDS). The term Generic Identity Services may be a bit misleading. I perceived tha= t GRIDS stands primarily for the idy-idf mapping system but I understand by= the expansion of the acronym services based on idy. There is some potentia= l for mistake. [Uma]: Michael, not sure what's the mistake here. The services alluded her= e are envisioned to be defined on the entity's stable Identity but not on = the Identifier (which is not associated all the time to the entity, relativ= ely). To be defined Identity services *can be* used by any IDentifier/Loc protoco= l. But it is not necessary to use all of these, by a particular Identifier= /Loc protocol. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on=20 > changes needed for interactions between the framework and=20 > identifier-enabled protocols. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: >=20 > =20 >=20 > -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their=20 > associated identifiers. >=20 > -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework,=20 > update of information for identifiers..) >=20 > -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming...) >=20 > -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability=20 > to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for=20 > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis...) >=20 > -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) >=20 > -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location=20 > split protocols >=20 > -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. - Access restriction for lookup of identity-identifier information That is probably the hardest part if scalability and privacy are expected. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure=20 > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when=20 > appropriate. >=20 > =20 >=20 > WG deliverables include: >=20 > Generic Identity Services Framework >=20 > =20 >=20 > WG sustaining/informational documents may include:=20 >=20 > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be=20 > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to=20 > support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: >=20 > -Problem statement >=20 > -Use cases >=20 > -Requirements >=20 > - Applications of the architecture for use cases >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Milestones >=20 > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework >=20 > August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework >=20 > December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG >=20 Best wishes, Michael > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Wed Aug 2 17:38:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1791275FD for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FQ7TlOshxCiB for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x230.google.com (mail-wr0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6078126C7A for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x230.google.com with SMTP id y43so2417313wrd.3 for ; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 17:38:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=USCa8DpMZVSW2JT2ydavhSM1Z5LEpEORC82q2HIIhYc=; b=BDixhk2Q1oi4m+G34nQrD0DuoSPOH9WHXbtv2Y4RxBJ44JX3B2+atiStizxSYzYJaV /FWdC4F5H5wDPMgr6DGI4u1cSxkTPGe+n+ZnnoJwdIs2ullrLcBUKKz6nxJSe196HP0q 2I5Ge1GNVn2hJx09FWXYc0/uSuiRDoye9FuIgNoolwzX1A0y11u0oOf8W5hiip9ohwag uhSvJQ8/G0kywwISOMBvYjcbmeMKsHh6iePGPLxyvLpuL6aWrm81QfHkSISLBc6fk3YM JGn+1awEzOpVzOJguqqNnMD8qbBOzEiWbdQ/gZLgRxAUsUE1PNNvzXizjDu/9etfkQLt NHRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=USCa8DpMZVSW2JT2ydavhSM1Z5LEpEORC82q2HIIhYc=; b=Z4JfPBQmi1sIqYk1ieBGQRb7GB8hJAdO+AvMTJcOu6njbVEDIp72ZtqM7ijg5z6pm+ RfoH2YS3xxFdsg05aU3WkGm1UW9J4BMje8PhLbXHqxTt/Dgfcx0diVd9daOvAf0YZ6xA wriA9UUesEvNF28R6dDj6e+f6NVmcPNqW4Hf8czM8nKpmP+gpEx3qyCX7IT4eVYswIwv 9GXd4B1CGY9dQI1ADu3RK3nijjylUb/X9Matn7fo7AfN58r9uie1pIvmQ3OBWyOPj8Jy u7oijRz9BEavxBj5TxDRWFzAkuiPoE+o0eyY/cpd5Q61xkacFrhGedN+9A4AfjBL2KY5 /eVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112OmTsR2KxtiXC2a3cjKXEzyVCqTN40+z5WYb641kRsJyEEaww1 HjophBJsQnok3ucUjFmimOZOjTSAfAiq X-Received: by 10.223.142.139 with SMTP id q11mr18871174wrb.184.1501720734299; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 17:38:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:38:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:38:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 00:38:59 -0000 On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi Tom, > > One response to your second comment, inline, > > Thanks > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:46 AM > To: Padma Pillay-Esnault > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:05 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: >> Dear Ideas >> >> Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from >> our BOF chairs and AD. >> >> Your input and support greatly appreciated. >> Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. >> >> >> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> Proposed Charter >> >> >> >> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator >> separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and >> multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator >> separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to >> discover the network topological >> location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. > > This is true, but there is currently no common IETF protocol to do this. = A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator pr= otocols as well as network virtualization. My understanding is that develop= ing such a protocol would be the goal of the WG, if so it should be explici= tly stated here in the charter. > >> However, additional >> infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new >> requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and >> mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition, >> identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier >> split. This split enables networks provide communication services for >> endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any >> particular point in time. >> > This seems weak to me. Identifier/locator protocols have already been suc= cessfully deployed without the concept of identity. I don't see that where = lack of the identity has prevented networks to provide communication servic= es (although I'm not sure what the scope of "communication services" is). I= think a clearer rationalization is needed for identity. > > > A few examples are given in the identity use cases document (https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-ccm-ideas-identity-use-cases-01). > > For example: Communication and firewall policies aim at specifying rules= which endpoint should be blocked from sending traffic to another endpoint.= Policies that are articulated based on locators are going to be insuffien= t, given that the rule will apply to an endpoint as identified by an identi= fier, irrespective of its locator (which is subject to change, and which sh= ould not require an update to policies and firewall rules whenever the loca= tor changes). Now, as discussed, there is a clear case to potentially chan= ge identifiers frequently when communicating, i.e. to use an ephemeral iden= tifier (from a pool, or assigned dynamically, etc). In such a case, how wo= uld policies, firewall rules etc be applied? Updating those rules dynamica= lly becomes a significant management challenge (and may be impossible in ca= se of "fresh" ephemeral identifiers). On the other hand, there is still a = desire for security and a legitimate case to be made for firewalls and comm= unication policies. It should not have to be a choice between either provi= ding security for a receiver (through those rules), or privacy for the send= er (through ephemeral identifiers); instead a system should be able to prov= ide both. This is what the identity/identifier split enables. > If the only intent of this is merely to make management simpler then identity might be the wrong term. Maybe this should be something like identifier group. Regardless, my fundamental question still remains, what does it mean when this information is compromised by the network? (note this is "when" not "if") Suppose for instance that my host connects to another host that is behind a firewall. If I want to frequently change my local address because it's a long lived connection then a remote (stateful) firewall needs to participate have knowledge of the end host identity and would participate in an identity protocol. But from the host perspective this seems to create a privacy issue. I have no reason to trust and remote network or firewall and frankly only trust my local network out of necessity (local networks already have identities of users). If IDEAS would purposely share identifying information for users outside of their local network I think this is a potential issue. Btw, for changing identifiers on long lived connections the possibility that MPTCP and MPT (recently proposal in int-area) are possibly relevant and should be considered to see if they could solve the problem. Tom > > > >> >> Examples of the problem space are: >> >> - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be >> desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as >> well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without >> restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. >> The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier >> while retaining their identity and associated policies. This >> indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal >> sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. >> >> >> >> - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the >> end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped locatio= n). >> Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control over >> who can look up the identifier-locator binding information for example. >> >> >> >> - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and >> consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of >> entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing >> services for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and >> infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as >> identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexit= y. >> >> >> >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to >> develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and >> provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the >> framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GR= IDS). > > The use of terms identifier and identity seems a little haphazard here an= d elsewhere. For instance, if the working group is chartered to "chartered = to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols" then= should the WG group be Identifier Enabled Networks and the services be Gen= eric Identifier Services? I realize this is only nomenclature, but I think = if the implication is that this creates a required dependency on identity f= or existing identifier/locator protocols this could meet resistance. > > Tom > > > >> >> >> The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on >> changes needed for interactions between the framework and >> identifier-enabled protocols. >> >> >> >> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the >> framework: >> >> >> >> -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their >> associated identifiers. >> >> -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, >> update of information for identifiers..) >> >> -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, >> multihoming...) >> >> -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability >> to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for >> particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) >> >> -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) >> >> -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location >> split protocols >> >> -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. >> >> >> >> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure >> interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. >> Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when ap= propriate. >> >> >> >> WG deliverables include: >> >> Generic Identity Services Framework >> >> >> >> WG sustaining/informational documents may include: >> >> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be >> maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to >> support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: >> >> -Problem statement >> >> -Use cases >> >> -Requirements >> >> - Applications of the architecture for use cases >> >> >> >> >> >> Milestones >> >> March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework >> >> August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework >> >> December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Wed Aug 2 17:39:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F14129AAD for ; 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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 17:39:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:39:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:39:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Menth Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141045a979a240555ce9b10" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 00:39:16 -0000 --001a1141045a979a240555ce9b10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Michael Thank you for your comments. See below for suggestions. Please feel free to propose alternate text. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Michael Menth wrote: > Hi Padma, all, > > Am 02.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Padma Pillay-Esnault: > > Dear Ideas > > > > Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from > > our BOF chairs and AD. > > > > Your input and support greatly appreciated. > > Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. > > > > > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > > additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to > > address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery > > service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In > > addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of > > identity-identifier split. This split enables networks provide > > communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular > > identifier used at any particular point in time. > > > > > > Examples of the problem space are: > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > > while retaining their identity and associated policies. This indirectio= n > > should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network > > information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > The last paragraph is not fully clear. > How about just removing it? > > > > > > > > > - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped > > location). > Not fully clear. > Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of > > control over who can look up the identifier-locator binding information > > for example. > > Propose the following Access control : Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules. > > > > > - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and > > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of > > entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing services > > for individual endpoints. > This is not a full sentence. Meaning? Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mapping= s > > reduces operational and deployment complexity. > Is that the suggestion to have one mapping system for both loc-id and > idy-idf mapping? > > Propose the following Common infrastructure and Primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networking policies. Regarding your question - colocation is a plus IMHO. > > > > > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > > develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > > provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the > > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > > (GRIDS). > The term Generic Identity Services may be a bit misleading. I perceived > that GRIDS stands primarily for the idy-idf mapping system but I > understand by the expansion of the acronym services based on idy. There > is some potential for mistake. > > Clarifications? > > > > > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on change= s > > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > > protocols. > > > > > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > > framework: > > > > > > > > -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > > associated identifiers. > > > > -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > > update of information for identifiers..) > > > > -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > > multihoming...) > > > > -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability > > to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > > > -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > > > -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > > split protocols > > > > -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > - Access restriction for lookup of identity-identifier information > > That is probably the hardest part if scalability and privacy are expected= . > > > > > > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > > Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when > > appropriate. > > > > > > > > WG deliverables include: > > > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained > > in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > > > -Problem statement > > > > -Use cases > > > > -Requirements > > > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > > > > > > > > > Milestones > > > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > > > August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > > > December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > Best wishes, > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ideas mailing list > > Ideas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > > > -- > Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth > University of Tuebingen > Faculty of Science > Department of Computer Science > Chair of Communication Networks > Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany > phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 > fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 > mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de > http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --001a1141045a979a240555ce9b10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Michael=C2=A0

Thank you for your c= omments.=C2=A0

See below <PPE> for suggestio= ns.=C2=A0
Please feel free to propose alternate text.

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at = 12:32 AM, Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:=
Hi Padma, all,
Am 02.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Padma Pillay-Esnault:
> Dear Ideas
>
> Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from=
> our BOF chairs and AD.
>
> Your input and support greatly appreciated.
> Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias.
>
>
> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Proposed Charter
>
>
>
> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separatio= n
> are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing acros= s
> heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols=
> require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network
> topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to > address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery=
> service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2= =A0 In
> addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of
> identity-identifier split. This split enables networks provide
> communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular
> identifier used at any particular point in time.
>
>
> Examples of the problem space are:
>
> - Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without<= br> > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier<= br> > while retaining their identity and associated policies. This indirecti= on
> should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network=
> information of end devices to eavesdroppers.
The last paragraph is not fully clear.
<Padma>
How about just removing it?

>
>
>
> - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped
> location).
Not fully clear.

Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of
> control over who can look up the identifier-locator binding informatio= n
> for example.


<Padma> Propose the follo= wing=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Access control : Unrestricted look up on an ide= ntifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today,= there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user def= ined policy or finer grain rules.=C2=A0

>
>
> - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and<= br> > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of > entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing service= s
> for individual endpoints.
This is not a full sentence. Meaning?=C2=A0


Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure
> that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappin= gs
> reduces operational and deployment complexity.
Is that the suggestion to have one mapping system for both loc-id an= d
idy-idf mapping?


<Padma> Propose the= following =C2=A0
Common infrastructure and Primitives: The l= ack of a common infrastructure is a =C2=A0barrier for =C2=A0the application= of common and=C2=A0consistent basic networking policies.
Regarding your question - colocation is a plus IMHO.
>
>
>
> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and=
> provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the
> framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS).
The term Generic Identity Services may be a bit misleading. I percei= ved
that GRIDS stands primarily for the idy-idf mapping system but I
understand by the expansion of the acronym services based on idy. There
is some potential for mistake.

<Padma>
Clarifications?<= /div>
=C2=A0
>
>
>
> The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on chang= es
> needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols.
>
>
>
> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the=
> framework:
>
>
>
> -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their
> associated identifiers.
>
> -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework,<= br> > update of information for identifiers..)
>
> -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming...)
>
> -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability=
> to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)
>
> -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)
>
> -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols
>
> -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

- Access restriction for lookup of identity-identifier information
That is probably the hardest part if scalability and privacy are expected.<= br>
>
>
>
> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure
> interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work.
> Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when<= br> > appropriate.
>
>
>
> WG deliverables include:
>
> Generic Identity Services Framework
>
>
>
> WG sustaining/informational documents may include:
>
> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintaine= d
> in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support th= e
> efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:
>
> -Problem statement
>
> -Use cases
>
> -Requirements
>
> - Applications of the architecture for use cases
>
>
>
>
>
> Milestones
>
> March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework
>
> August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework
>
> December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG
>

Best wishes,

Michael

>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas=
>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@un= i-tuebingen.de
http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--001a1141045a979a240555ce9b10-- From nobody Wed Aug 2 17:57:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E7412EB2B for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XjCvrMy4oNnG for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com (mail-qt0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE5FF129B4C for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id t37so36698300qtg.5 for ; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 17:57:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qBPt/BeY6Yg+QRVc7hA7hIbQCGLDMKlNV1L4GOz/Jvg=; b=bCPuM6MDfgtFFrfnec8bubYmssrvFDs8bLbz6UIhL/FzJ+Mja81Qt/5QEbgfdU5aJS Lx6vn4so1sO8hKTL7tBz9G/mp1KWP8a5gr8WuZO2r6oJx/ghurmzQvcqRe3t3DFyJre9 J8g3kczlYfbXXICEUyO+1Z/03kjz3xccDXrngtYtpKgqbfhmyEA/gNV8EyQfocvrWA7R MGmOtNRl1d+PfoB80MzOKamTqE49zwo25exy0tg84o3gHEhMckdU1CK5VoUvlOYPFM/i pjsgEots5WHjlsf4vchf0mAnwpoGGiJ3E7Krb+qNdRtuGGzqFtaLrPMZKkqd/SPrGPBU IZFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qBPt/BeY6Yg+QRVc7hA7hIbQCGLDMKlNV1L4GOz/Jvg=; b=i8RRy6dYdIRz4pGokC8fMmVM4ajvYSeyFrT/rnBmJ/+N8XCmV8LqxYKZRKFUyUNdkv ZS66QazJt80zVIPkgjZ/3xgY7jxB7ZjAVwL/VW8iuB9m+UMUN6D+dZcMGt5KdCjYzsmg P5Uw0isCZSPcuCGJiYM+Wx0emb3W++donx5BmqmP6hNFU7v/3dOKKKwwDpH0YbPhjmkG bqGeESTBpijOY8fordKaiFdTzOJJPCBAOC1OjfoEof9USigmASWA+RBJJc3viRyMJjgn TJ1GyyHUJ+YWsDhRVSezzyzicwEcU6SH2KCRlPP0InsQr/TLffrb/jpp61jUmiac4F5N bxlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113CWqsGx1JKLo+bu/yomYjDchcFbeZXpPdOCVku+UHi5doC18UE slnCd3OjV9ORJ7nG+Y9fG1YOXlqKVA== X-Received: by 10.237.62.105 with SMTP id m38mr36215908qtf.179.1501721854718; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 17:57:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:57:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:57:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113a060cb3b6bd0555cedd12" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 00:57:38 -0000 --001a113a060cb3b6bd0555cedd12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex Thank you for your comments. Please see below On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi, > > > > I have a couple of comments and questions, which I put inline, . > > > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:05 AM > *To:* ideas@ietf.org > *Cc:* Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal > > > > Dear Ideas > > > > Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from ou= r > BOF chairs and AD. > > > > Your input and support greatly appreciated. > > Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. > > > > > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to addre= ss > new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service an= d > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition, > identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier > split. This split enables networks provide communication services for > endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular > point in time. > > Not sure why the following text from the previous version was > struck =E2=80=93 IMHO it would make sense to keep it: > > =E2=80=9CAt the same time, end users require greater privacy for their ne= tworking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > In order to address those challenges, identity-enabled networks introduce > the concept of identity-identifier split. This split lets networks provid= e > communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular > identifier used at any particular point in time. This requires a set of > services, referred to as Generic Identity Services. Those services allow > to: (1) manage the lifecycle of identities and identifiers, (2) manage > mappings between identities and identifiers in addition to mappings betwe= en > identifiers and locators, and (3) access to a range of value-added servic= es > such as the articulation of basic communication policies that are based o= n > the concept of identity.=E2=80=9D > > > > Privacy, operational efficiency, control of endpoints over their > networking data feature prominently in our use cases and problem > statement. I don=E2=80=99t intend to engage in circular arguments but I = am not > quite clear why those aspects were removed =E2=80=93 it would seem to me = they > should be featured as part of the motivation. > > > > > One of the feedback we got on this section is as follows: *"The overall structure of the charter should be crisp in describingthe problem space rather than talking nebulously about privacy,protection, and efficiency"* So took a stab at cutting down on this part. > > > > Examples of the problem space are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. This indirection should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of > end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped location= ). > Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control over who c= an > look up the identifier-locator binding information for example. > > > > - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of entit= y > reduces operational complexity associated with managing services for > individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that > apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduc= es > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the framewor= k > providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated > identifiers. > > -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming...) > > -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split > protocols > > -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > Earlier revision did not include the last 3 items: metadata, > primitives for interworking, management aspects. I believe those will be > required for a complete system so on those grounds don=E2=80=99t object t= o > including them; however, I do have concerns regarding if the scope become= s > too large. IMHO we should consider removing them, in the interest of > sharper focus (which is still large); we can always add stuff later. > > > This was part of the original version and I add them back here. > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > We have heard mixed messages regarding the use of the term > =E2=80=9Cframework=E2=80=9D in the context of IETF. Can we include defin= ition of the > framework as part of our deliverables, or would a framework be something > that might be specified as background information to provide context, wit= h > the actual deliverable consisting instead of service interfaces, data > models, and possibly protocols and protocol extensions? (Perhaps Alvaro c= an > provide direction here?) > > > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n > a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > --001a113a060cb3b6bd0555cedd12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex

Thank you for your comments.

Please see <Padma> below

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Ale= xander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I have a couple of comments and questions, w= hich I put inline, <ALEX>.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:05 AM
To: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal

=C2=A0

Dear Id= eas

=C2=A0

Please = find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from our BOF cha= irs and AD.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Your in= put and support greatly appreciated.

Please = send your comments and proposed changes on the alias.<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

IDEAS: = =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Propose= d Charter

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network= solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increa= singly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protoc= ols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topolo= gical location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2=A0However, additio= nal infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional= discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet deliver= y.=C2=A0 In addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of id= entity-identifier split. This split enables networks provide communication services for endpoints regardless of the pa= rticular identifier used at any particular point in time.<= /u>

<ALEX&= gt; Not sure why the following text from the previous version was struck = =E2=80=93 IMHO it would make sense to keep it:

=E2=80=9CAt the = same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking informati= on and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater oper= ational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree = of privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled wi= th greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks.

=C2=A0=

In order to addr= ess those challenges, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of id= entity-identifier split. This split lets networks provide communication ser= vices for endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular point in time. This requires a set of se= rvices, referred to as Generic Identity Services. Those services allow to: = (1) manage the lifecycle of identities and identifiers, (2) manage mappings= between identities and identifiers in addition to mappings between identifiers and locators, and (3) access t= o a range of value-added services such as the articulation of basic communi= cation policies that are based on the concept of identity.=E2=80=9D<= u>

=C2=A0=

Privacy, operati= onal efficiency, control of endpoints over their networking data feature pr= ominently in our use cases and problem statement.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t int= end to engage in circular arguments but I am not quite clear why those aspects were removed =E2=80=93 it would seem to me they sh= ould be featured as part of the motivation.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

</ALEX>


<Padma> On= e of the feedback we got on this section is as follows:
"The = overall structure of the charter should be crisp in describing
the probl= em space=C2=A0rather than talking nebulously about privacy,
protection, = and efficiency"

So took a s= tab at cutting down on this part. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Example= s of the problem space are:

- Priva= cy: =C2=A0The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for= looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without rest= riction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The = endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while ret= aining their identity and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and co= nceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0<= /span>

- Acces= s control : An identifier may reveal information to which the end-users may= not want to be associated with (for example mapped location). Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control = over who can look up the identifier-locator binding information for example= .

=C2=A0<= /span>

- Commo= n infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and consistent b= asic networking policies that can apply at the level of entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing services= for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure th= at apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings redu= ces operational and deployment complexity.

=C2=A0<= /span>

The Ide= ntity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is=C2=A0chartered=C2=A0to deve= lop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the frame= work providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0<= /span>

The wor= king group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed fo= r interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Specifi= cally, the IDEAS WG is=C2=A0chartered=C2=A0to work on these areas for the f= ramework:

-Regist= ration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifi= ers.

-Identi= ty authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of in= formation for identifiers..)

-Identi= fier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming..= .)

-Defini= tion and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up = an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

-Identi= ty and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)

-Defini= tion of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocol= s

-Manage= ment aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

=C2=A0<ALEX> Earlier revision did not include t= he last 3 items: metadata, primitives for interworking, management aspects.= =C2=A0 I believe those will be required for a complete system so on those grounds= don=E2=80=99t object to including them; however, I do have concerns regard= ing if the scope becomes too large.=C2=A0 IMHO we should consider removing = them, in the interest of sharper focus (which is still large); we can always add stuff later.

</ALEX>

=
<Padma> This was part of the original version and I ad= d them back here.


=C2=A0

The IDE= AS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability= with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deli= verables include:

Generic= Identity Services Framework=C2=A0

<ALEX> We have heard mixed messages regarding t= he use of the term =E2=80=9Cframework=E2=80=9D in the context of IETF.=C2= =A0 Can we include definition of the framework as part of our deliverables, or would a framew= ork be something that might be specified as background information to provi= de context, with the actual deliverable consisting instead of service inter= faces, data models, and possibly protocols and protocol extensions? (Perhaps Alvaro can provide direction h= ere?)

</ALEX>

=C2=A0<= /span>

WG sust= aining/informational documents may include:=C2=A0

These d= ocuments may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft= form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

-Proble= m statement=C2=A0

-Use ca= ses

-Requir= ements

- Appli= cations of the architecture for use cases

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

Milesto= nes=C2=A0

March 2= 018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework=

August = 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework

Decembe= r 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>


--001a113a060cb3b6bd0555cedd12-- From nobody Wed Aug 2 18:11:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AF1131B79 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 18:11:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ijb7YXF1bgVB for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C99128BC8 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id a77so36602959qkb.0 for ; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 18:11:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zzZkwkb3nuWwrI23iCo/R1vMocc1yrAVccyclMqm/b0=; b=Spu0U09sJ7EVUUBo7kvoiaeakxWnugG9AfBDEw8rn9IHDf0XNJYQp6cGngLXkXOAxW VkOPF2mGrEJlhSzZry9LiV4xKJUVebA0zg8KHJOXoOpiv7YxhwvKjToW5dlEE20zOj/G jNNW8mXQwKbJrwtAyBKr+czVKqoK/R8nsU/T29aKjA1oXCBUjI/GDh4BvOvhOyODTawK UitxCY4RdnirZQYkaTNyoszyvfKTTqTvUUTYpQBax2JrQ4JVpYo4n3AIRtlZqblNhaP7 LEUPBfU6QlzEz+dDyje/RCG77b7l91XZs+0yE56iZFKM10/I8+qgrIjRuj/txiwn29Zw tTXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zzZkwkb3nuWwrI23iCo/R1vMocc1yrAVccyclMqm/b0=; b=X0rnqGT0d7eEpQQ9ZEKkJZnre64IXKmQAEhC61e3YcdIYRd2FdHComycOfZM0h3lFV /C8ljtM+gefY8T4VU1Kvu5tAfgcmdJLPh8Y/CIVdvzBd9s2zQV1N22GZFHBNWtrAM9Em lpxyRNkmKIYL1du5sBdklRDOjV166rrTqkgekB2BhRslrYi/uN2EhvdcHRZGPp70yG8h vUJqVKbZJgAocU27xMSqVOe+28XHt+bEFqR3/OxkNiHWFyrS+2LwK/+B09PErHm91V8z gB2YS4XXiVd+7bHACQiYjATU0CQMPYGQhHFppdTNFhFz8X13m3pFM6p9bbLSiMI32qjQ ybjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5heoVBWdX/WxpgIbxjGXfkw5cZc1BkUCDelKWgSiq5wM3MwgoB3 QnIHV2KF1A2IN1CDsiWHcMljVs1VbA== X-Received: by 10.55.2.193 with SMTP id v62mr208645qkg.231.1501722662135; Wed, 02 Aug 2017 18:11:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 18:11:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 18:11:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Alexander Clemm , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11455506d3ecf00555cf0dd2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 01:11:06 -0000 --001a11455506d3ecf00555cf0dd2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Alexander Clemm > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > One response to your second comment, inline, > > > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:46 AM > > To: Padma Pillay-Esnault > > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:05 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault < > padma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Ideas > >> > >> Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from > >> our BOF chairs and AD. > >> > >> Your input and support greatly appreciated. > >> Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. > >> > >> > >> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > >> > >> > >> > >> Proposed Charter > >> > >> > >> > >> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator > >> separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and > >> multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator > >> separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to > >> discover the network topological > >> location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. > > > > This is true, but there is currently no common IETF protocol to do this= . > A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator > protocols as well as network virtualization. My understanding is that > developing such a protocol would be the goal of the WG, if so it should b= e > explicitly stated here in the charter. > > > >> However, additional > >> infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new > >> requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and > >> mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition, > >> identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier > >> split. This split enables networks provide communication services for > >> endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any > >> particular point in time. > >> > > This seems weak to me. Identifier/locator protocols have already been > successfully deployed without the concept of identity. I don't see that > where lack of the identity has prevented networks to provide communicatio= n > services (although I'm not sure what the scope of "communication services= " > is). I think a clearer rationalization is needed for identity. > > > > > > A few examples are given in the identity use cases document ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ccm-ideas-identity-use-cases-01). > > > > For example: Communication and firewall policies aim at specifying > rules which endpoint should be blocked from sending traffic to another > endpoint. Policies that are articulated based on locators are going to b= e > insuffient, given that the rule will apply to an endpoint as identified b= y > an identifier, irrespective of its locator (which is subject to change, a= nd > which should not require an update to policies and firewall rules wheneve= r > the locator changes). Now, as discussed, there is a clear case to > potentially change identifiers frequently when communicating, i.e. to use > an ephemeral identifier (from a pool, or assigned dynamically, etc). In > such a case, how would policies, firewall rules etc be applied? Updating > those rules dynamically becomes a significant management challenge (and m= ay > be impossible in case of "fresh" ephemeral identifiers). On the other > hand, there is still a desire for security and a legitimate case to be ma= de > for firewalls and communication policies. It should not have to be a > choice between either providing security for a receiver (through those > rules), or privacy for the sender (through ephemeral identifiers); instea= d > a system should be able to provide both. This is what the > identity/identifier split enables. > > > If the only intent of this is merely to make management simpler then > identity might be the wrong term. Maybe this should be something like > identifier group. Regardless, my fundamental question still remains, > what does it mean when this information is compromised by the network? > (note this is "when" not "if") > > No it is not a group .. this is another convoluted word as you can belong to many groups with other entities. You raise an interesting question, well it is dependent on what type of information you tie to it or not. > Suppose for instance that my host connects to another host that is > behind a firewall. If I want to frequently change my local address > because it's a long lived connection then a remote (stateful) firewall > needs to participate have knowledge of the end host identity and would > participate in an identity protocol. But from the host perspective > this seems to create a privacy issue. I have no reason to trust and > remote network or firewall and frankly only trust my local network out > of necessity (local networks already have identities of users). If > IDEAS would purposely share identifying information for users outside > of their local network I think this is a potential issue. > let say today I put myself on a do not call list? Whether I put myself there or not does not create more issues regarding my phone# as it was already possible to scan all numbers anyway. But would I put sensitive info no ... In short, you can determine what you want to share or not share ... > > Btw, for changing identifiers on long lived connections the > possibility that MPTCP and MPT (recently proposal in int-area) are > possibly relevant and should be considered to see if they could solve > the problem. > > Tom > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Examples of the problem space are: > >> > >> - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > >> desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > >> well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > >> restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > >> The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > >> while retaining their identity and associated policies. This > >> indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal > >> sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > >> > >> > >> > >> - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > >> end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped > location). > >> Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control over > >> who can look up the identifier-locator binding information for example= . > >> > >> > >> > >> - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and > >> consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of > >> entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing > >> services for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and > >> infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as > >> identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment > complexity. > >> > >> > >> > >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > >> develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > >> provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the > >> framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The use of terms identifier and identity seems a little haphazard here > and elsewhere. For instance, if the working group is chartered to > "chartered to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based > protocols" then should the WG group be Identifier Enabled Networks and th= e > services be Generic Identifier Services? I realize this is only > nomenclature, but I think if the implication is that this creates a > required dependency on identity for existing identifier/locator protocols > this could meet resistance. > > > > Tom > > > > > > >> > >> > >> The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on > >> changes needed for interactions between the framework and > >> identifier-enabled protocols. > >> > >> > >> > >> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > >> framework: > >> > >> > >> > >> -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > >> associated identifiers. > >> > >> -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > >> update of information for identifiers..) > >> > >> -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > >> multihoming...) > >> > >> -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability > >> to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > >> particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > >> > >> -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > >> > >> -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > >> split protocols > >> > >> -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > >> > >> > >> > >> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > >> interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > >> Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when > appropriate. > >> > >> > >> > >> WG deliverables include: > >> > >> Generic Identity Services Framework > >> > >> > >> > >> WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > >> > >> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > >> maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to > >> support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > >> > >> -Problem statement > >> > >> -Use cases > >> > >> -Requirements > >> > >> - Applications of the architecture for use cases > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Milestones > >> > >> March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > >> > >> August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > >> > >> December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ideas mailing list > >> Ideas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ideas mailing list > > Ideas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --001a11455506d3ecf00555cf0dd2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com= > wrote:
=
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Alexander Clemm
<alexander.clemm@huawei.co= m> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> One response to your second comment, inline, <ALEX>
>
> Thanks
> --- Alex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bo= unces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert
> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:46 AM
> To: Padma Pillay-Esnault <p= adma.ietf@gmail.com>
> Cc: ideas@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:05 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Ideas
>>
>> Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback = from
>> our BOF chairs and AD.
>>
>> Your input and support greatly appreciated.
>> Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias.
>>
>>
>> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> Proposed Charter
>>
>>
>>
>> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator
>> separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and
>> multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-loca= tor
>> separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to >> discover the network topological
>> location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.
>
> This is true, but there is currently no common IETF protocol to do thi= s. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator= protocols as well as network virtualization. My understanding is that deve= loping such a protocol would be the goal of the WG, if so it should be expl= icitly stated here in the charter.
>
>> However, additional
>> infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address n= ew
>> requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service= and
>> mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0 In ad= dition,
>> identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identi= fier
>> split. This split enables networks provide communication services = for
>> endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any
>> particular point in time.
>>
> This seems weak to me. Identifier/locator protocols have already been = successfully deployed without the concept of identity. I don't see that= where lack of the identity has prevented networks to provide communication= services (although I'm not sure what the scope of "communication = services" is). I think a clearer rationalization is needed for identit= y.
>
> <ALEX>
> A few examples are given in the identity use cases document (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cc= m-ideas-identity-use-cases-01).
>
> For example:=C2=A0 Communication and firewall policies aim at specifyi= ng rules which endpoint should be blocked from sending traffic to another e= ndpoint.=C2=A0 Policies that are articulated based on locators are going to= be insuffient, given that the rule will apply to an endpoint as identified= by an identifier, irrespective of its locator (which is subject to change,= and which should not require an update to policies and firewall rules when= ever the locator changes).=C2=A0 Now, as discussed, there is a clear case t= o potentially change identifiers frequently when communicating, i.e. to use= an ephemeral identifier (from a pool, or assigned dynamically, etc).=C2=A0= In such a case, how would policies, firewall rules etc be applied?=C2=A0 U= pdating those rules dynamically becomes a significant management challenge = (and may be impossible in case of "fresh" ephemeral identifiers).= =C2=A0 On the other hand, there is still a desire for security and a legiti= mate case to be made for firewalls and communication policies.=C2=A0 It sho= uld not have to be a choice between either providing security for a receive= r (through those rules), or privacy for the sender (through ephemeral ident= ifiers); instead a system should be able to provide both.=C2=A0 This is wha= t the identity/identifier split enables.
>
If the only intent of this is merely to make management simpler= then
identity might be the wrong term. Maybe this should be something like
identifier group. Regardless, my fundamental question still remains,
what does it mean when this information is compromised by the network?
(note this is "when" not "if")


<Padma> No it is not a group .. = this is another convoluted word as you can belong to many groups with other= entities.
You raise an interesting question, well it is dependen= t on what type of information you tie to it or not.

=C2=A0
Suppose for instance that my host connects to another host that is
behind a firewall. If I want to frequently change my local address
because it's a long lived connection then a remote (stateful) firewall<= br> needs to participate have knowledge of the end host identity and would
participate in an identity protocol. But from the host perspective
this seems to create a privacy issue. I have no reason to trust and
remote network or firewall and frankly only trust my local network out
of necessity (local networks already have identities of users). If
IDEAS would purposely share identifying information for users outside
of their local network I think this is a potential issue.
<= div>
<Padma> let say today I put myself on a do not cal= l list? Whether I put myself there or not does not create more issues regar= ding my phone# as it was already possible to scan all numbers anyway. But w= ould I put sensitive info no ...=C2=A0 In short, you can determine what you= want to share or not share ...

Btw, for changing identifiers on long lived connections the
possibility that MPTCP and MPT (recently proposal in int-area) are
possibly relevant and should be considered to see if they could solve
the problem.

Tom


> </ALEX>
>
>
>>
>> Examples of the problem space are:
>>
>> - Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may = be
>> desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues = as
>> well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up with= out
>> restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end system= s.
>> The endpoint communications should be able to change their identif= ier
>> while retaining their identity and associated policies. This
>> indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal >> sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which t= he
>> end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped l= ocation).
>> Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control ove= r
>> who can look up the identifier-locator binding information for exa= mple.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common = and
>> consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level o= f
>> entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing
>> services for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and<= br> >> infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as
>> identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment com= plexity.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered t= o
>> develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols= and
>> provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the >> framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Servic= es (GRIDS).
>
> The use of terms identifier and identity seems a little haphazard here= and elsewhere. For instance, if the working group is chartered to "ch= artered to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protoco= ls" then should the WG group be Identifier Enabled Networks and the se= rvices be Generic Identifier Services? I realize this is only nomenclature,= but I think if the implication is that this creates a required dependency = on identity for existing identifier/locator protocols this could meet resis= tance.
>
> Tom
>
>=C2=A0 >
>>
>>
>> The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on >> changes needed for interactions between the framework and
>> identifier-enabled protocols.
>>
>>
>>
>> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for= the
>> framework:
>>
>>
>>
>> -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their
>> associated identifiers.
>>
>> -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framewo= rk,
>> update of information for identifiers..)
>>
>> -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/su= b,
>> multihoming...)
>>
>> -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. abi= lity
>> to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic f= or
>> particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)
>>
>> -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)
>>
>> -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-locatio= n
>> split protocols
>>
>> -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure<= br> >> interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work.
>> Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed w= hen appropriate.
>>
>>
>>
>> WG deliverables include:
>>
>> Generic Identity Services Framework
>>
>>
>>
>> WG sustaining/informational documents may include:
>>
>> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be
>> maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wik= i to
>> support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:
>>
>> -Problem statement
>>
>> -Use cases
>>
>> -Requirements
>>
>> - Applications of the architecture for use cases
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Milestones
>>
>> March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework
>>
>> August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework
>>
>> December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ideas mailing list
>> Ideas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas=
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ideas mailing list
> Ideas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas=

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[73.70.190.41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e131sm58725705pgc.64.2017.08.02.18.44.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Aug 2017 18:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2C076366-15E6-49B7-859D-5D378A13F714 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 18:44:22 -0700 Cc: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm , "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , Uma Chunduri , Michael Menth Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <970C5281-B97A-4FCE-BE6B-8BE8F8D76613@gmail.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAE21@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EAEA0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EB240@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A37DD3@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> To: william manning Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Can identity directly link with IP address? X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 01:44:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2C076366-15E6-49B7-859D-5D378A13F714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear William Absolutely. Do you have pointers to documents you can share with us? Thanks Padma=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2017, at 14:11, william manning wro= te: >=20 > Isn't part of the problem that we are still agreeing to be bound to the lo= cator/identifier split (as outlined in the ilnp and lisp work) and harkening= back to the ideas documented by Saltzer in 1982 and published as RFC 1498. = not to add a new wrinkle at this stage, but it seems that when all you hav= e is a locator and an identifier, we won't get very far. A few years back,= I proposed adding an additional element as the tie breaker. =20 > Would there be interest in talking about that idea at this time? >=20 > /Wm >=20 >> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Tom Herbert wrote= : >> Uma, >>=20 >> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Uma Chunduri w= rote: >> >> Identity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple iden= tifiers with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply anonymi= zation schemes such as was mentioned by Dino), >> >> and so it is easier to administer the overall system (such as, firewal= l rules, which would be nice if you could avoid having to update them every t= ime an endpoint's IP address changes). >> > >> Yes, this makes it easier to manage the system, but also makes it >> potentially easier to attack. If someone were to consider enabling a >> new general possibly, global identity in my the network then the first >> question I'd ask is what are the ramifications if the users' >> identities are compromised. >>=20 >> > +1 >> > >> > Just to add a bit more: >> > >> > 1. Identity is entry point to the system (GRIDS) and mainly for authent= ication (mutual authentication perhaps) >> > - we can choose multiple AUTH methods (not necessarily restrict= ed X.509) which suits for the entity (low-power/high-power IOT, vehicular n= ode etc..) >>=20 >> Who needs to authenticate whom? Updating the mapping system would >> obviously require strong credentials so security is needing there, but >> that is part of the control protocol between the mapping system and >> the network manager (e.g. MME probably in 3gpp). Devices already have >> identities at layer 2 that are used when joining the network (e.g. EAP >> in Ethernet, SIM). >>=20 >> > 2. Identity is not in the data plane and peer wouldn't know. Peer knows= only one of the (long-lived) identifier like EID/HIT and the same would be u= sed to LOC resolution. >>=20 >> Yes, that's the essence of identifier/locator protocols. The fact that >> identity is not part of the existing identifier/locator protocols is a >> good property. >>=20 >> > 3. Identity will have life cycle (can be changed with overhead of movin= g the rules) >> > >> That's complexity that needs to be justified by the value we get from >> introducing identity in IP networking. >>=20 >> Tom >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --Apple-Mail-2C076366-15E6-49B7-859D-5D378A13F714 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear William

Absolutely.
Do you have pointers to documents you can share with= us?

Thanks
Padma 

Sent fro= m my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2017, at 14:11, william manning <chinese.apricot@gmail.com> w= rote:

Isn't par= t of the problem that we are still agreeing to be bound to the locator/ident= ifier split (as outlined in the ilnp and lisp work) and harkening back to th= e ideas documented by Saltzer in 1982 and published as RFC 1498. not to add a new wrinkle a= t this stage, but it seems that when all you have is a locator and an identi= fier, we won't get very far. A few years back, I proposed adding an additi= onal element as the tie breaker.
Would there be interest in talking about that idea a= t this time?

/Wm

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Tom Herbert = <tom@herbertland= .com> wrote:
Uma,

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:
>> Identity is needed so that you can e.g. easily associate multiple i= dentifiers with the same endpoint (for example, so you can easier apply anon= ymization schemes such as was mentioned by Dino),
>> and so it is easier to administer the overall system (such as, fire= wall rules, which would be nice if you could avoid having to update them eve= ry time an endpoint's IP address changes).
>
Yes, this makes it easier to manage the system, but also makes it
= potentially easier to attack. If someone were to consider enabling a
new general possibly, global identity in my the network then the first
question I'd ask is what are the ramifications if the users'
identities are compromised.

> +1
>
> Just to add a bit more:
>
> 1. Identity is entry point to the system (GRIDS) and mainly for authent= ication (mutual authentication perhaps)
>         - we can choose multiple AUTH methods (= not necessarily restricted X.509) which suits for the entity (low-power/high= -power  IOT, vehicular node etc..)

Who needs to authenticate whom? Updating the mapping system would
= obviously require strong credentials so security is needing there, but
that is part of the control protocol between the mapping system and
the network manager (e.g. MME probably in 3gpp). Devices already have
identities at layer 2 that are used when joining the network (e.g. EAP
in Ethernet, SIM).

> 2. Identity is not in the data plane and peer wouldn't know. Peer knows= only one of the (long-lived) identifier like EID/HIT and the same would be u= sed to LOC resolution.

Yes, that's the essence of identifier/locator protocols. The fact tha= t
identity is not part of the existing identifier/locator protocols is a
good property.

> 3. Identity will have life cycle (can be changed with overhead of movin= g the rules)
>
That's complexity that needs to be justified by the value we get from=
introducing identity in IP networking.

Tom

_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

____________________= ___________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ideas
= --Apple-Mail-2C076366-15E6-49B7-859D-5D378A13F714-- From nobody Thu Aug 3 00:01:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44E9126557 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 00:01:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AY5lxaoWHFZf for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 00:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66AFF131C97 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 00:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSP95400; Thu, 03 Aug 2017 07:01:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([10.201.109.53]) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com ([10.201.108.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 08:01:17 +0100 From: Georgios Karagiannis To: Alexander Clemm , Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC13EKdh27uIFU0ahkjytuPWYtKJxnc6AgACWKNA= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 07:01:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.221.62.36] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C5034E44CD620A44971BAAEB372655DC2DD01E2Dlhreml502mbs_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.5982CA48.0115, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 01874c2f14a2d2d979a2a83dc1fb3673 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9402D131C3B for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agOA8sxJUuuM for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F79F126C2F for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLX13304; Thu, 03 Aug 2017 23:16:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 00:16:23 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:16:11 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxvFWA///petCAAJqRgIABAWSw Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 23:16:11 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.223] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.5983AEC9.013F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 98abfae448e060692dd463358253cba2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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X19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gSWRlYXMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IElkZWFzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWRlYXMNCg== From nobody Thu Aug 3 16:40:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BB131F19 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8r-oVx44NPO for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0DF0131EBC for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLX15217; Thu, 03 Aug 2017 23:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 00:40:48 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:40:45 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxqY4AgACcCgCAAQDJkA== Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 23:40:44 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9D4@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF6D@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.223] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9D4SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.5983B482.0049, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 98abfae448e060692dd463358253cba2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 23:40:58 -0000 --_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9D4SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUGFkbWEsDQoNClNvbWUgcmVzcG9uc2VzLCBpbmxpbmUsIDxBTEVYMj4NCg0KLS0tIEFsZXgN Cg0KRnJvbTogUGFkbWEgUGlsbGF5LUVzbmF1bHQgW21haWx0bzpwYWRtYS5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNv bV0NClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgQXVndXN0IDAyLCAyMDE3IDU6NTggUE0NClRvOiBBbGV4YW5k ZXIgQ2xlbW0gPGFsZXhhbmRlci5jbGVtbUBodWF3ZWkuY29tPg0KQ2M6IGlkZWFzQGlldGYub3Jn DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0lkZWFzXSBZb3VyIGlucHV0IG5lZWRlZDogQ2hhcnRlciBQcm9wb3Nh bA0KDQpIaSBBbGV4DQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBjb21tZW50cy4NCg0KUGxlYXNlIHNl ZSA8UGFkbWE+IGJlbG93DQoNCk9uIFdlZCwgQXVnIDIsIDIwMTcgYXQgMzo1NyBQTSwgQWxleGFu ZGVyIENsZW1tIDxhbGV4YW5kZXIuY2xlbW1AaHVhd2VpLmNvbTxtYWlsdG86YWxleGFuZGVyLmNs ZW1tQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+PiB3cm90ZToNCkhpLA0KDQpJIGhhdmUgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgY29tbWVu 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114744b6b90da40555e6f79c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2017 05:42:55 -0000 --001a114744b6b90da40555e6f79c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex See On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi Padma, > > > > Some responses, inline, > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 02, 2017 5:58 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal > > > > Hi Alex > > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > Please see below > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Alexander Clemm < > alexander.clemm@huawei.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a couple of comments and questions, which I put inline, . > > > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:05 AM > *To:* ideas@ietf.org > *Cc:* Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal > > > > Dear Ideas > > > > Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from ou= r > BOF chairs and AD. > > > > Your input and support greatly appreciated. > > Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias. > > > > > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. However, > additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to addre= ss > new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service an= d > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. In addition, > identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity-identifier > split. This split enables networks provide communication services for > endpoints regardless of the particular identifier used at any particular > point in time. > > Not sure why the following text from the previous version was > struck =E2=80=93 IMHO it would make sense to keep it: > > =E2=80=9CAt the same time, end users require greater privacy for their ne= tworking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > In order to address those challenges, identity-enabled networks introduce > the concept of identity-identifier split. This split lets networks provid= e > communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular > identifier used at any particular point in time. This requires a set of > services, referred to as Generic Identity Services. Those services allow > to: (1) manage the lifecycle of identities and identifiers, (2) manage > mappings between identities and identifiers in addition to mappings betwe= en > identifiers and locators, and (3) access to a range of value-added servic= es > such as the articulation of basic communication policies that are based o= n > the concept of identity.=E2=80=9D > > > > Privacy, operational efficiency, control of endpoints over their > networking data feature prominently in our use cases and problem > statement. I don=E2=80=99t intend to engage in circular arguments but I = am not > quite clear why those aspects were removed =E2=80=93 it would seem to me = they > should be featured as part of the motivation. > > > > > > > > One of the feedback we got on this section is as follows: > > > > *"The overall structure of the charter should be crisp in describing the > problem space rather than talking nebulously about privacy, protection, a= nd > efficiency"* > > > > So took a stab at cutting down on this part. > > > > Is the issue that it is not crisp enough or that it is not > something to focus on? > It was not crisp enough but it does not mean that we should not focus on it as the problem space clearly mention privacy. IMHO, efficiency and not creating more security risks are must in all work in IETF hence the feedback. Personally, I still find this to be an important problem that I have not > seen addressed elsewhere, and something we could play a role in, so I wou= ld > have preferred to rephrase it e.g. as follows > > (note that making it clearer makes it unfortunately longer): > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. To this end,= the > working group shall define mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically chan= ge > identifiers to, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while > preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that > information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on= a > need-to-know basis. > I will see how to integrate this and will send an update version tomorrow. > However, given it=E2=80=99s removed, my assumption is this should not be = in > charter at all? > I see what you mean. How about integrating the proposed the text above?That should be satisfactory cover this aspect or we can add it in the list of areas covered in framework. > > > > > > > Examples of the problem space are: > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. This indirection should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of > end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > - Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the > end-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped location= ). > Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control over who c= an > look up the identifier-locator binding information for example. > > > > - Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and > consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of entit= y > reduces operational complexity associated with managing services for > individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that > apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduc= es > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the framewor= k > providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > framework: > > -Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated > identifiers. > > -Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > -Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming...) > > -Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > -Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > -Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split > protocols > > -Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > Earlier revision did not include the last 3 items: metadata, > primitives for interworking, management aspects. I believe those will be > required for a complete system so on those grounds don=E2=80=99t object t= o > including them; however, I do have concerns regarding if the scope become= s > too large. IMHO we should consider removing them, in the interest of > sharper focus (which is still large); we can always add stuff later. > > > > > > This was part of the original version and I add them back here. > > > > > > As deliverables,I would still cut down (i.e. delete) these items in the > interest of keeping the scope small. It is straightforward to add them > later. If the goal is to deliver a framework, sure, all those items will > have placeholders and be addressed in the framework. > I think we are in agreement here. The version here is under the assumption that the deliverable is the framework. Therefore these areas should be considered for the framework. > > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > We have heard mixed messages regarding the use of the term > =E2=80=9Cframework=E2=80=9D in the context of IETF. Can we include defin= ition of the > framework as part of our deliverables, or would a framework be something > that might be specified as background information to provide context, wit= h > the actual deliverable consisting instead of service interfaces, data > models, and possibly protocols and protocol extensions? (Perhaps Alvaro c= an > provide direction here?) > > > > Please refer to Georgios email. I believe we need guidance on > this as a working group, to avoid going down too far one path. Personall= y, > I am in favor of defining a framework as a deliverable, which will be > needed for context for any subsequent specific interfaces/protocols/data > models etc. > > > > Personally, defining a framework as a deliverable looks to be a reasonable and workable objective for a new wg. I am ccing here Alvaro for guidance regarding this specific question both you and Georgios raised. > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n > a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > -Problem statement > > -Use cases > > -Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > > > --001a114744b6b90da40555e6f79c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex

See <Padma2>

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 4= :40 PM, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Padma,

=C2=A0

Some responses, inline, <ALEX2>

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">padma.ietf@gmail.c= om]
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 5:58 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal

=C2=A0

Hi Alex

=C2=A0

Thank you for your comments.

=C2=A0

Please see <Padma> below

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Alexander Clemm <= alexander.c= lemm@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I have a couple of comments and quest= ions, which I put inline, <ALEX>.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 12:05 AM
To: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal

=C2=A0

Dear Ideas

=C2=A0

Please find below the updated charter that includes some feedback from= our BOF chairs and AD.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Your input and support greatly appreciated.

Please send your comments and proposed changes on the alias.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separatio= n are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protoc= ols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topolo= gical location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2=A0However, additio= nal infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional= discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet deliver= y.=C2=A0 In addition, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of id= entity-identifier split. This split enables networks provide communication services for endpoints regardless of the pa= rticular identifier used at any particular point in time.<= /u>

<ALEX> Not sure = why the following text from the previous version was struck =E2=80=93 IMHO = it would make sense to keep it:

=E2=80=9CAt the same t= ime, end users require greater privacy for their networking information and= protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking= applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and contro= l of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent s= ecurity than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks.

=C2=A0

In order to address th= ose challenges, identity-enabled networks introduce the concept of identity= -identifier split. This split lets networks provide communication services for endpoints regardless of the particular identifi= er used at any particular point in time. This requires a set of services, r= eferred to as Generic Identity Services. Those services allow to: (1) manag= e the lifecycle of identities and identifiers, (2) manage mappings between identities and identifiers in add= ition to mappings between identifiers and locators, and (3) access to a ran= ge of value-added services such as the articulation of basic communication = policies that are based on the concept of identity.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Privacy, operational e= fficiency, control of endpoints over their networking data feature prominen= tly in our use cases and problem statement.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t intend to engage in circular arguments but I am not quite clear why those = aspects were removed =E2=80=93 it would seem to me they should be featured = as part of the motivation.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

</ALEX>

=C2=A0

<Padma> One of the feedback we got on this sec= tion is as follows:

"= The overall structure of the charter should be crisp in describing
the problem space=C2=A0rather than talking nebulously about privacy,
protection, and efficiency"

=C2=A0

So took a stab at cutting down on this part. =C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

<ALEX2> Is the issue that it is= not crisp enough or that it is not something to focus on?=C2=A0


<Padma2> It was not crisp enough but it does not mean that we should= not focus on it as the problem space clearly mention privacy.=C2=A0
<= div>
IMHO, efficiency and not creating more security risks ar= e must in all work in IETF hence the feedback.

<= div class=3D"m_-1658522999726127074WordSection1">
<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Personally, I still find this to be an= important problem that I have not seen addressed elsewhere, and something we could play a role in, so I = would have preferred to rephrase it e.g. as follows

(note that making it clearer makes it= unfortunately longer):

At the same time, end = users require greater privacy for their networking information and protecti= on from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking= applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and contro= l of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent s= ecurity than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. To this end, the working group shall define mechanisms that let = endpoints dynamically change identifiers to, for example, facilitate anonym= ity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result fr= om abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-kn= ow basis.=C2=A0


<Padma2> I will see how to integrate this a= nd will send an update version tomorrow.
=C2=A0

However, given it=E2=80=99s removed, my assumption is this sho= uld not be in charter at all?=C2=A0

<Padma2> I see what you mean. How abou= t integrating the proposed the text above?That should be satisfactory cover= this aspect or we can add it in the list of areas covered in framework.
=C2=A0

</ALEX2>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Examples of the problem space are:

- Privacy: =C2=A0The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be d= esirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without rest= riction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The = endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while ret= aining their identity and associated policies. This indirection should help discourage undesired traffic and co= nceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

- Access control : An identifier may reveal information to which the e= nd-users may not want to be associated with (for example mapped location). Therefore, it is desirable to have a certain degree of control = over who can look up the identifier-locator binding information for example= .

=C2=A0

- Common infrastructure and Primitives: The application of common and = consistent basic networking policies that can apply at the level of entity reduces operational complexity associated with managing services= for individual endpoints. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure th= at apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings redu= ces operational and deployment complexity.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is=C2=A0chartered= =C2=A0to develop a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address those requirements. We refer to the frame= work providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on chang= es needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is=C2=A0chartered=C2=A0to work on these are= as for the framework:

-Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associa= ted identifiers.

-Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, = update of information for identifiers..)

-Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, m= ultihoming...)

-Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability= to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

-Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)

-Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location sp= lit protocols

-Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

=C2=A0<ALEX> Earlier revision did not include th= e last 3 items: metadata, primitives for interworking, management aspects.= =C2=A0 I believe those will be required for a complete system so on those grounds= don=E2=80=99t object to including them; however, I do have concerns regard= ing if the scope becomes too large.=C2=A0 IMHO we should consider removing = them, in the interest of sharper focus (which is still large); we can always add stuff later.

</ALEX>

=C2=A0

<Padma> This was part of the original version = and I add them back here.

=C2=A0

<ALEX2>

As deliverables,I woul= d still cut down (i.e. delete) these items in the interest of keeping the s= cope small.=C2=A0 It is straightforward to add them later.=C2=A0 If the goa= l is to deliver a framework, sure, all those items will have placeholders and be addressed in the framework. =C2=A0=C2=A0


<Padma2> I think we are in agreement here. The version here is= under the assumption that the deliverable is the framework. Therefore thes= e areas should be considered for the framework.

= =C2=A0
<= div>

=

</ALEX2>

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure inte= roperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework=C2=A0

<ALEX> We have heard mixed messages regarding th= e use of the term =E2=80=9Cframework=E2=80=9D in the context of IETF.=C2=A0= Can we include definition of the framework as part of our deliverables, or would a framew= ork be something that might be specified as background information to provi= de context, with the actual deliverable consisting instead of service inter= faces, data models, and possibly protocols and protocol extensions? (Perhaps Alvaro can provide direction h= ere?)

</ALEX>

<ALEX2> Please refer to = Georgios email.=C2=A0 I believe we need guidance on this as a working group= , to avoid going down too far one path.=C2=A0 Personally, I am in favor of defi= ning a framework as a deliverable, which will be needed for context for any= subsequent specific interfaces/protocols/data models etc.=C2=A0

</ALEX2>

=
<Padma2>
Personally, defining a framework as a= deliverable looks to be a reasonable and workable objective for a new wg.= =C2=A0

I am ccing here Alvaro for guidance reg= arding this specific question both you and Georgios raised. =C2=A0


=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:=C2=A0=

These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintaine= d in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

-Problem statement=C2=A0

-Use cases

-Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Milestones=C2=A0

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Identity Services framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Identity Services framework<= /u>

December 2018 Send Identity Services framework draft to the IESG

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--001a114744b6b90da40555e6f79c-- From nobody Fri Aug 4 09:06:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A611321CB for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9l4qtAF_gb0a for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x235.google.com (mail-wr0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24AEF1321B6 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x235.google.com with SMTP id y43so18434435wrd.3 for ; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 09:06:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=24lp8lYuRuQsO7LXpSBD6QI0bd8Zf6jI5bPmSTPAm88=; b=JdZTc67BVzUFk3t0XF5r41nTIr9tV6tLABJ8XsAEGSi49uX3pY6p8XlkoKQodwAzvB FLWT7/kA0TsGC+Evr4kLpV0YBshpDciUtP1j/ZPzIphTMjM9Kq+WOLMv88xSfqPgMscm MEH1rwDFngDpZ6cLbLdRoN+Bnl6/0EJ4AjD0J8CNkFtonQLJfSzibkSNQcJeQKJ2QVZ9 Du2hrrNzQODGp7fO1pJ3MFWfnr/2n8kVyTXUQ8tJs5OxfSWaEr2Aw4sy9iBbuz7dhGFb xKzl0c4FffnyBqTbp6tBfZrvYN/XULxXgKLHdmYiItWmHm/H9RNYQy+RDNmMfDx287ph dD0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=24lp8lYuRuQsO7LXpSBD6QI0bd8Zf6jI5bPmSTPAm88=; b=QXiBs/V4EQ60ojlsDFql4P2OTuZ9h7EWXCBJWLjPF6k1P4cS3jicyXj1DANSofRl2e uzpBN0WqrhAus74OQvY6idzpmuZpi8cM3UkT0EeMzTrEwY/W19WPAnzPJT0sZqTWae8+ kVK1R4fCl7SbsgI1pFKNtLYDyXstEOSrJGYfFqdx+KuSDZ4dqEHVpPflZZkpqht8FKqX Cm/S8twcDknUVns8/jNYkmjCW6CjwL5RgsZBk1FMPpQMmBPey3o/UZuYRcouD+goaGOs m1tz4sXCo1PuRVVNPvo98NSk4JnMaBmC/1a/apy6Pj5je6ybf89qkmU4jYFuQh6nkQ5D zjJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1129BC7AKtsks+MDGNq+Zo/UVRlxPbgHNhLy0Ij2d+kCcEWsd9B8 JucLPQIguk/H14THuTGSaOIFbizMo/yq X-Received: by 10.223.152.147 with SMTP id w19mr2012101wrb.118.1501862764570; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 09:06:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:06:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:06:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2017 16:06:08 -0000 > If the only intent of this is merely to make management simpler then iden= tity might be the wrong term. Maybe this should be something like identifie= r group. Regardless, my fundamental question still remains, what does it me= an when this information is compromised by the network? > (note this is "when" not "if") > > It may not be the only intent, but I would view it as an importan= t one. Not sure identifier group captures it. Of course, you can say that= ultimately there is a group of identifiers associated with an identity, bu= t the membership of that may change over time. > What information is compromised here? The entire group of all identifier= s? Then you would have defeated the purpose of this. This is why identity= should not be exposed. Yes, identity should not be exposed by a third party. But neither should credit card numbers, social card numbers, passport numbers, or voter registration-- and yet history is replete with incidents of this sort of sensitive information being exposed. It is impossible to build a system that can't be compromised, and even if we could build a perfectly secure system there is no way to enforce that all providers don't inadvertently or purposely expose the information. > > > Suppose for instance that my host connects to another host that is behind= a firewall. If I want to frequently change my local address because it's a= long lived connection then a remote (stateful) firewall needs to participa= te have knowledge of the end host identity and would participate in an iden= tity protocol. But from the host perspective this seems to create a privacy= issue. I have no reason to trust and remote network or firewall and frankl= y only trust my local network out of necessity (local networks already have= identities of users). If IDEAS would purposely share identifying informati= on for users outside of their local network I think this is a potential iss= ue. > > The assumption here is that you would be trusting your GRIDS prov= ider. (Which is a vast improvement over having to trust any hop on the Int= enet.) When you say "local" vs "remote" network, I assume you are talking = about inter-GRIDS scenarios. This is one of the questions, which informati= on can be shared / leaded between GRIDS providers. Probably not all inform= ation, but for this scenario, I would assume that yes, your identifiers (re= spectively the fact that they are tied to the same endpoint/identity) is in= formation that would be shared. Making "the fact that they are tied to the same endpoint/identity" visible is contrary to the need for anonymity and privacy. Even today a host can use different source addresses for different flows (consider that UEs are typically assign a /64 which gives a host plenty of address to choose from). The Internet works perfectly well with this model. Sorry, I'm just not seeing how adding identity to the Internet improves it or improves service to users. Tom From nobody Fri Aug 4 10:31:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEDA1323D3 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Dh55Fy7U67i for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 10:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F8D01323BC for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DLY44664; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 17:31:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 18:31:42 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 10:31:35 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxvFWA///petCAAJqRgIABAWSwgAGT/YD//5lKwA== Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 17:31:34 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB24@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.111] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.5984AF7F.0219, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 98abfae448e060692dd463358253cba2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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d24mr2212032wrb.33.1501870365633; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:12:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB24@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB24@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:12:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2017 18:12:49 -0000 On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi Tom, > > Please find my response at the bottom, > > Thanks > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 9:06 AM > To: Alexander Clemm > Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault ; ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal > >> If the only intent of this is merely to make management simpler then ide= ntity might be the wrong term. Maybe this should be something like identifi= er group. Regardless, my fundamental question still remains, what does it m= ean when this information is compromised by the network? >> (note this is "when" not "if") >> >> It may not be the only intent, but I would view it as an importa= nt one. Not sure identifier group captures it. Of course, you can say tha= t ultimately there is a group of identifiers associated with an identity, b= ut the membership of that may change over time. >> What information is compromised here? The entire group of all identifie= rs? Then you would have defeated the purpose of this. This is why identit= y should not be exposed. > > Yes, identity should not be exposed by a third party. But neither should = credit card numbers, social card numbers, passport numbers, or voter regist= ration-- and yet history is replete with incidents of this sort of sensitiv= e information being exposed. It is impossible to build a system that can't = be compromised, and even if we could build a perfectly secure system there = is no way to enforce that all providers don't inadvertently or purposely ex= pose the information. > >> >> >> Suppose for instance that my host connects to another host that is behin= d a firewall. If I want to frequently change my local address because it's = a long lived connection then a remote (stateful) firewall needs to particip= ate have knowledge of the end host identity and would participate in an ide= ntity protocol. But from the host perspective this seems to create a privac= y issue. I have no reason to trust and remote network or firewall and frank= ly only trust my local network out of necessity (local networks already hav= e identities of users). If IDEAS would purposely share identifying informat= ion for users outside of their local network I think this is a potential is= sue. >> >> The assumption here is that you would be trusting your GRIDS pro= vider. (Which is a vast improvement over having to trust any hop on the In= tenet.) When you say "local" vs "remote" network, I assume you are talking= about inter-GRIDS scenarios. This is one of the questions, which informat= ion can be shared / leaded between GRIDS providers. Probably not all infor= mation, but for this scenario, I would assume that yes, your identifiers (r= espectively the fact that they are tied to the same endpoint/identity) is i= nformation that would be shared. > > Making "the fact that they are tied to the same endpoint/identity" > visible is contrary to the need for anonymity and privacy. Even today a h= ost can use different source addresses for different flows (consider that U= Es are typically assign a /64 which gives a host plenty of address to choos= e from). The Internet works perfectly well with this model. Sorry, I'm just= not seeing how adding identity to the Internet improves it or improves ser= vice to users. > > > > Well, it depends on what you mean with "the Internet works perfectly well= with this model". It works perfectly well also for the mirai botnets, the= stalkers, the phishers, the outside parties (beyond your SP) who want to p= rofile your communications exchanges. I think we should try to do better t= han that. > > The aspect I've been trying to get across concerns that there is an issue= today with the desire of users to remain anonymous, while being protected = from threats, and while being able to control their own data (beyond person= al data of the application level also network level data such as their loca= tor). Some of these goals are contradictory - the ability to remain anonym= ous can be exploited by the botnet that launches an attack and wants to eva= de detection, etc. How do we strike the right balance? By that same argument encryption has the same problem. We want keep private communications secret, but allow law enforcement to able to read the terrorists plans. This was the intent of key escrow, but that failed pretty spectacularly. It failed in part because of the obvious privacy concerns and possibility of abuse by authority, but also failed because the database itself with all the keys cannot be adequately secured (like my previous point). > Presumably there is a good reason for firewalls It's arguable whether there is good reason for firewalls any more. In any case firewalls are not a necessary part of the Internet architecture, we should not be building Internet protocol based on their requirements, firewalls should be the ones adapt to Internet protocols. > - but in as far as firewall rules are locator/Ip-based (and possibly iden= tifier-based, but given identifiers can be ephemeral becoming impossible to= maintain), those mechanisms are too easy to defeat. Identity, to me, seem= s to be a reasonable mechanism to add to the networking arsenal to allow to= better strike that balance. > Please quantify: "but given identifiers can be ephemeral becoming impossible to maintain". Tom > > > > From nobody Fri Aug 4 11:45:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD45132001 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kl3Tds_jmXdt for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BA28131FF7 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSS76202; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 18:45:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 19:45:06 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 11:45:03 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxvFWA///petCAAJqRgIABAWSwgAGT/YD//5lKwIAAihsA//+Oq3A= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 18:45:03 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB95@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB24@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.111] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.5984C0B3.00A5, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 01874c2f14a2d2d979a2a83dc1fb3673 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FE41204DA for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 15:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y4znjZICwXmR for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 15:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 965271241F5 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 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bh=FaMLeKf5hVV+7vkEDLLR4OLrA98LxFpwztItjZTg3kM=; b=XSvSPNygauL7JV592bBvhB2ljXqE+gxphGf45KCY3lBlAqOAnNa4/W9vdf2grTW+4v t/aOnHs/8ngi9WiHaolfgaYy14vIRA7f70W5AP87UcJkcqxRi41BAOEghXf7l+PSa81K nJC0DUsm3lxlPJkv4sMBx2O0NAtr2hWWjDaDGEsS5Gj0yKg04aDGp9zCIrmPBHbuZX/8 C9sTu58Gliv9UYOT9IHPuYgbPp+WpVTJL4TXDRKQj2VBy0DJvIO4Wo4V1WFhg9QBRXJY HCH7O6knXc2Dvx1o0NGkzmohhwJ6vrJefkA5srZbmu7/aAs07fRQOoBpoXTA+zL/CRIa lMSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5iyfu4bsSDEcIFd4EFn5p3MZs8AkKf3TNuLkTv3LpUOi1EC/XDQ /i+qnXJOPMKlx0er1rMfRyjVRmzY0hiJ X-Received: by 10.28.65.138 with SMTP id o132mr2629314wma.81.1501885898831; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 15:31:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 15:31:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB95@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB24@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB95@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 15:31:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2017 22:31:43 -0000 > By that same argument encryption has the same problem. We want keep priva= te communications secret, but allow law enforcement to able to read the ter= rorists plans. This was the intent of key escrow, but that failed pretty sp= ectacularly. It failed in part because of the obvious privacy concerns and = possibility of abuse by authority, but also failed because the database its= elf with all the keys cannot be adequately secured (like my previous point)= . > > I would argue that the problems are not the same as with encrypti= on (and the state with regards to balance between choices there is arguably= better than what have in the rest of networking space), but yes, I agree t= here are clear analogies. I am not clear about your suggestion or your co= nclusion here. Are you saying we should just give up and accept having to = choose between security and privacy, and that the choice is in favor of pri= vacy over security, or really perhaps neither? My point is that if I want secure communications today I would encrypt the communications. If I want to obfuscate source I can get multiple addresses from my source provider and use different ones per my needs. There should be no reason for any node in the path to have to correlate that two source address really belong to the same entity. If the peer needs to do this it will use higher layer mechanisms to establish identity. The mapping system might have two identifiers sharing the same locator, but that should not imply any semantics or that they share any other properties. > > > >> Presumably there is a good reason for firewalls > > It's arguable whether there is good reason for firewalls any more. In any= case firewalls are not a necessary part of the Internet architecture, we s= hould not be building Internet protocol based on their requirements, firewa= lls should be the ones adapt to Internet protocols. > > True, but my point is that there are legitimate reasons why peopl= e have concerns about allowing just any uncontrolled communications/packets= anonymously on their network. It would be good if we could address those = concerns, not punting the problem and leaving it to someone else to solve i= t (or not). I think that there is an opportunity that the identity concep= t can play here. Such concerns are local issues not global. A network is free to apply whatever mechanisms it deems necessary to solve it's perceived problems, but this is not a problem for IETF to generically solve. > > >> - but in as far as firewall rules are locator/Ip-based (and possibly ide= ntifier-based, but given identifiers can be ephemeral becoming impossible t= o maintain), those mechanisms are too easy to defeat. Identity, to me, see= ms to be a reasonable mechanism to add to the networking arsenal to allow t= o better strike that balance. >> > Please quantify: "but given identifiers can be ephemeral becoming impossi= ble to maintain". > > How often do you expect ephemerals IDs to be used? Your manageme= nt overhead will be proportional to that rate. Whenever you have a new / p= reviously unknown identifier of an endpoint that you would like to subject = to a rule, you would have to make an update (to the rule, to a database som= ewhere, in one or possibly multiple places depending on your defense archit= ecture). > > I expect them to be used like any other IP addresses. We typically don't put rules for individual IP addresses in firewall rules so I would expect that individual identifiers would not be placed into the firewall either. If a site wishes they can structure identifiers to include some aggregation information and that can be used in firewall rules. This sort of aggregation is already being done in at least one case I know of where a small 8 bit prefix in the identifier indicates the department of an enterprise (not specifically identity of the end point). Tom From nobody Fri Aug 4 16:51:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5331D129AD1 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kGE1l06qcK2y for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14436129ADA for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DST00831; Fri, 04 Aug 2017 23:51:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Sat, 5 Aug 2017 00:51:50 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:51:42 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tom Herbert CC: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHTC12+AfiKolqSn0m2AlWfd+AfdqJxvFWA///petCAAJqRgIABAWSwgAGT/YD//5lKwIAAihsA//+Oq3AAFzVNgAANXZ3g Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 23:51:42 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECCFE@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EBF85@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0EC9A7@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB24@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ECB95@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.111] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.59850897.005D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 01874c2f14a2d2d979a2a83dc1fb3673 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your input needed: Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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YWxsIDggYml0IHByZWZpeCBpbiB0aGUgaWRlbnRpZmllciBpbmRpY2F0ZXMgdGhlIGRlcGFydG1l bnQgb2YgYW4gZW50ZXJwcmlzZSAobm90IHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSBpZGVudGl0eSBvZiB0aGUgZW5k IHBvaW50KS4NCg0KVG9tDQo= From nobody Sun Aug 6 22:20:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C62B128A32 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 22:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29jx53jAhAg6 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 22:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46EC31287A5 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 22:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id z18so34213995qka.4 for ; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 22:20:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LtSUT1WKj/2BvKaQGpZEYOv1/3csZHUWhXSxr7tK4WY=; b=egnPwmruaOyLRaDujOzvV/7Xzr5l1e5mO1ju6U+VMVpYY2xuMbBAy7I2z+c87yJ0W8 GFxZIxuvgLyW3kAqMxMfFsWcNLk3YO92DN0hgdPByRRxiyTEtL42z/x62Aawrkg2jAa8 mIELK6WAvVGgM1k9SkKMGzEhqcwdISfgQO9OBenXURnjTmuQu/CF2K8PRFkoqfY9ZAOE U94MRljIzc724GP5zqpBppOQVtU3KknevxhzhPqTO7So6yIBW9DEd5rhedkm6jFhy187 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22:20:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113b0b78c0549e055622ff52" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 05:20:06 -0000 --001a113b0b78c0549e055622ff52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IDEAS, Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list. This new version should address comments from: - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity. - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition. - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version. -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed. Please find the new version below: IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D Proposed Charter Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. To this end, the working group shall: - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization. - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis. Some examples of the problem space are: - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules. - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols. Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework: - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...) - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers. - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..) - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. WG deliverables include the definition: Generic Identity Services Framework WG sustaining/informational documents may include: These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: - Problem statement - Use cases - Requirements - Applications of the architecture for use cases Milestones March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG --001a113b0b78c0549e055622ff52 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear IDEAS,

Thanks to everyone who sent= their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list.
<= br>
This new version should address comments from:
- = =C2=A0Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address s= ome of your comments on clarity.
- Alex Clemm. Alex , please chim= e on the revision regarding your addition.=C2=A0
- Tom Herbert. T= om, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version.
-T= om and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is mo= dular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic i= dentifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity co= ncept and functionalities.
- Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri.= Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. T= his version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defini= ng the framework.=C2=A0
- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub referen= ce should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed.

= Please find the new version below:

IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D <= span>

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier= -Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protoco= ls require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologica= l location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensi= ons are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

At the same time, end users require greater privacy = for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks = aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree o= f privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:

- define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization.

=C2=A0

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-ide= ntifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is reve= aled only on a need-to-know basis.

=C2=A0

Some examples of the problem space are:=

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of = a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent ba= sic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that app= ly to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identif= ier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no= way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fi= ner grain rules.

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody = to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining th= eir identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and acce= ss control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group = is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-base= d protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to = the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS= ).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recomm= endations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-ena= bled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on t= hese areas for the modular framework:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. di= scovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identitie= s and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. ac= cess to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking pol= icies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traf= fic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow ch= anging)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropria= te.

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Gro= ups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthe= rmore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include the definition:=

Generic Identity Services Framework

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include: <= span>

These documents may not necessarily be published, bu= t may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to supp= ort the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

=C2=A0

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity S= ervices framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services f= ramework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framewo= rk draft to the IESG

--001a113b0b78c0549e055622ff52-- From nobody Sun Aug 6 23:42:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61E5129461 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 23:42:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUo4-S_x9sHJ for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 23:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31593128BC8 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 23:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMC23912; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 06:42:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.177) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 07:42:17 +0100 Received: from DFWEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.178]) by DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.177]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Sun, 6 Aug 2017 23:42:11 -0700 From: Yingzhen Qu To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzf2Bbm06iBeES5JpgQTI43+6J4ayUw Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 06:42:11 +0000 Message-ID: <594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B53DA03@dfweml501-mbx> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.81] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B53DA03dfweml501mbx_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0202.59880BCB.002B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 568c37afbae3014cd6950539b3eda132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 06:42:25 -0000 --_000_594D005A3CB0724DB547CF3E9A9E810B53DA03dfweml501mbx_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGFkbWEsDQoNCkFib3V0IOKAnC0gSWRlbnRpdHkgYW5kIElkZW50aWZpZXIgTWV0YWRhdGEgKGZp eGVkIG9yIHNsb3cgY2hhbmdpbmcp4oCdLCBJIHJlbWVtYmVyIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMg d2UgZ290IGJlZm9yZSB3YXMgdG8gZnVydGhlciBsaW1pdCB0aGUgc2NvcGUgb2YgbWV0YWRhdGEg dG8ganVzdCBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBjYXRlZ29yaWVzLCBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSB0eXBlLg0KDQpUaGFu a3MsDQpZaW5nemhlbg0KDQpGcm9tOiBJZGVhcyBbbWFpbHRvOmlkZWFzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5v cmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBQYWRtYSBQaWxsYXktRXNuYXVsdA0KU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBBdWd1 c3QgMDYsIDIwMTcgMTA6MjAgUE0NClRvOiBpZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KQ2M6IFBhZG1hIFBpbGxh eS1Fc25hdWx0IDxwYWRtYS5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFtJZGVhc10gWW91ciBJ bnB1dCByZXF1ZXN0ZWQ6IENoYXJ0ZXIgUHJvcG9zYWwgTmV3IFZlcnNpb24NCg0KRGVhciBJREVB 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cfKCE045Ob2K for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 01:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (mx04.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A785C1288B8 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 01:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hsi-kbw-078-043-213-241.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [78.43.213.241]) by mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 56DA337EBA; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:19:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org References: From: Michael Menth Message-ID: <7771f455-8372-aae5-e04f-2991a5fa03d8@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:19:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 08:19:35 -0000 Hi Padma, clarity has improved. Thanks! Michael Am 07.08.2017 um 07:20 schrieb Padma Pillay-Esnault: > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list > and off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address > some of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition. > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework > is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the > basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new > identity concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough > to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids > aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS” > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common > infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator > protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional > infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new > requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of > privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled > with greater inherent security than provided by today’s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator > mapping system that provides a common solution for all > identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization. > > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and > new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These > new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through > obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, > ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is > revealed only on a need-to-know basis. > > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent > basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings > reduces operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way > to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or > finer grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of > temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information > of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based > protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer > to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic > Identity Services (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > associated identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability > to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when > appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained > in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Mon Aug 7 08:23:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7871324D4 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EEFWwDgBTf8E for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com (mail-wr0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C500132494 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id v105so3158420wrb.0 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 08:23:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0QUlGefqiwKcllCte35B0jQy193nYo/N8SQx9w5Bxog=; b=Jhx3cIOHunTE3mxY4oD3KjsCvM/w6IMUgVbwrKZvBOqHQy16NysVagc+SPIzPzFXXI 4QAE6EBbiYV0HSPOHXjzRqTBoowNQqoE0R7s9IMs99gxE/RI0CC4Ok6QSEvWZw+wp8dW z0GeFM6unaKfk274jzQlyqhq2RNs/rJK9Mxq2LtU+COAZdeBmHTY1UGBZjjJ9TP1nKDY H0sWvk6KTvAmq5N6iKfKd02IVE0rCdENz7ovZB26lw3XiEElYQI757VfZ2G++MC35wU/ mJlcqo5I59t6QA0ZfeOvnxclW7g2LD/UEL+uwhtyisyh3kgkRdtaRmGHYR8hZOtFmTem 2Fjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0QUlGefqiwKcllCte35B0jQy193nYo/N8SQx9w5Bxog=; b=SzecrMY0wLi8xle0WAF/Nxi9ccn8VGWEmrjiGqXyJq7NbvaRP5zZHlUZgzz7uZJ6aQ GT534KYToI8lEvb727qEdVzmonUiZ89CRK2e0odDhelCI6GlCuh9LrwN+QodjXh0iCpG GEv31LcUdSFdhypVKv8KXY3OZ0VLBYJJ/BPJiRp19WnOiD+wC3LX8jUPnzjBVc1LsmNL YpBtb62wThsh0dKSC2ASMgEce8JFdGedBPWkK97xHxnJwjBHyj4RoFfs3pC0qkTUWAKo egaKBhzvMqcjoSZ1cKeN2exhWr1PWYjNyeZRamQYjxE/QAAOB+6JaUFScjzgRB3aQQ66 3KUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gzh/Mykp02oGffxuyX9HF7fP9q/zN5mZd+LpLM3WtE6OvobeTH VwhUDPe0uuSGepWxw+gqhvnjGSn4MpFF X-Received: by 10.223.152.147 with SMTP id w19mr675786wrb.118.1502119381434; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 08:23:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:23:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:23:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 15:23:06 -0000 On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list = and > off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address so= me > of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s > modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic > identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity > concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o > accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids > aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation a= re > increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologi= cal > location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure a= nd > protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network > virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol > extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the > traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for > packet delivery. > > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping > protocols and network virtualization. > > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring t= hat > information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on= a > need-to-know basis. > Padma, I don't think this goes far enough in terms of protections for users against the potential abuse of something that might be able to individually and persistently identify them on the Internet. First, it's not clear what network layer identity means in this context. I hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of identifiers as opposed to the identity of individual users or devices. In any case maybe a definition of identity might be in order here. Secondly, I think it should be stated up front that identity cannot in any way be used to identify individual users, it cannot be used to create a global database of Internet users, in no way can it be used by networks or governments to track or block individuals, nor can it ever be required for communications. That implies network layer identities cannot contain PII (personally identifiable information) and cannot be permanently assigned to users or devices (in the same spirit that Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs because of privacy concerns). Thanks, Tom > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructu= re > is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networkin= g > policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to > identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers = and > access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op > a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t > protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particu= lar > endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n a > draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the effort= s > of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Mon Aug 7 08:57:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACE11323B2 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GEAVGnFJx7SD for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50109.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.109]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24A88131D19 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 08:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DB6PR0601MB2167.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.168.57.26) by DB6PR0601MB2168.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.168.57.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.1.1304.22; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 15:57:18 +0000 Received: from DB6PR0601MB2167.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::25:7eac:7ccc:f78d]) by DB6PR0601MB2167.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::25:7eac:7ccc:f78d%13]) with mapi id 15.01.1304.027; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 15:57:18 +0000 From: "Diego R. Lopez" To: Tom Herbert , Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzf0VnU7X7NZEetTe3DcOc6BqJ5A6EAgAArHIA= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 15:57:18 +0000 Message-ID: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.21.0.170403 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com; x-originating-ip: [83.49.234.105] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB6PR0601MB2168; 6:WRh0xhQE9+w335nuLVF/iDe/ZWXcC8huSQOf02xGZ+QtGaDR0S1HipXUH+m7HnitxhJtoEXLx3J8Sjsov9nLd5EQ+cMA04EbdFTMJV8U2OOXkyow+3galD4ejMm+EiY4iyV+dkWQ2ygURDVRhZk4E/82YAnsLbgcPEjo3GS3A4vIM3xoLIDkP1RV144uaCjpGpA+FONtHNqmzYGhkuetOCCGRXIVWg2XK/LzgSQJAOGT7jInTsHNYxlZ0xGy/oPr5olGK94WbmIQYs35Y+U5yihN7x+06mVF0OX2RO1CFF4NcvnxGmqGXGbEGTKKnADdbbpP3JvC3IJWKsK0+gorXw==; 5:u/FDxChN+YlPVhqATSujcXU/qQ0wEJRX+UEMNNr8g/bjrkLPn2zN8qVc8CWKr/LFaSpovDkp9E+mUJslxrNUJoe5tqHfaJeEB8FcWBlIVaZjZs+pxuElVnFjgow/5WsdBwPXsHkYKuw68pC1vsbrZQ==; 24:XGkYEm2PwSvB1zVVcf0Tx7D9xqRK+BNn++BzeU8lrwX/5j1al96POkQs3iig48+24E9rRIZocpNr0yj1os3bjV/R+KjkCNoYQYhna0nAST4=; 7:M69qDeygYa8eNq5uaqmabzYqjb+dzkTrxFn/dHrEj4WeGwuAYtSsass10Ih9nkppslDOyfSAezozyXBGgCewPP0wudNb94Z84O92EsjWz9+0C3XOYDjwGLMHJWz/4BSsOtlyfUu0pY1VTo7iiUzCEdz6hksMgLx5E4FOqAsRlcXvOZta3U/nTKPXs8HYF53+YNao9yDmPo52BUm7TObed6enR6hLlJHzVcifUHbzveQ= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6e2da776-b3e3-4878-aad9-08d4ddacfb73 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(300000500095)(300135000095)(300000501095)(300135300095)(22001)(300000502095)(300135100095)(2017030254152)(48565401081)(300000503095)(300135400095)(2017052603031)(201703131423075)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(300000504095)(300135200095)(300000505095)(300135600095)(300000506095)(300135500095); SRVR:DB6PR0601MB2168; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6PR0601MB2168: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(278428928389397)(192374486261705); x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(100000703101)(100105400095)(3002001)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(6055026)(6041248)(201703131423075)(201702281529075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123555025)(20161123558100)(20161123560025)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(6072148)(100000704101)(100105200095)(100000705101)(100105500095); SRVR:DB6PR0601MB2168; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000800101)(100110000095)(100000801101)(100110300095)(100000802101)(100110100095)(100000803101)(100110400095)(100000804101)(100110200095)(100000805101)(100110500095); SRVR:DB6PR0601MB2168; x-forefront-prvs: 0392679D18 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39840400002)(39850400002)(39450400003)(39400400002)(39860400002)(39410400002)(54164003)(189002)(199003)(24454002)(40134004)(377454003)(25724002)(4326008)(76176999)(105586002)(83506001)(3660700001)(101416001)(86362001)(38730400002)(3846002)(102836003)(3280700002)(5660300001)(6116002)(6246003)(82746002)(33656002)(106356001)(36756003)(97736004)(6306002)(81166006)(81156014)(53546010)(8676002)(6486002)(6512007)(2950100002)(68736007)(8936002)(6506006)(53936002)(229853002)(83716003)(2900100001)(5250100002)(39060400002)(14454004)(6436002)(66066001)(54356999)(50986999)(478600001)(25786009)(2906002)(4001350100001)(7736002)(189998001)(99286003)(305945005)(87944003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB6PR0601MB2168; H:DB6PR0601MB2167.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: telefonica.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Aug 2017 15:57:18.7763 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0601MB2168 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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([2600:380:857d:2312:dc4d:77f3:9261:864b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w82sm16150453pfa.39.2017.08.07.10.55.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Aug 2017 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) In-Reply-To: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 10:55:02 -0700 Cc: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <88A019FA-05EA-4623-9948-590CD87EAC6C@gmail.com> References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> To: "Diego R. Lopez" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 17:55:07 -0000 Hi Yingzhen=20 Thanks for pointing this out. Noted for next revision=20 Padma Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2017, at 08:57, Diego R. Lopez wr= ote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 >=20 > On 7/8/2017, 17:23, "Ideas on behalf of Tom Herbert" wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault > wrote: >> Dear IDEAS, >>=20 >> Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list a= nd >> off the list. >>=20 >> This new version should address comments from: >> - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address so= me >> of your comments on clarity. >> - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . >> - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this >> version. >> -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s >> modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic >> identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity= >> concept and functionalities. >> - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an >> ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o >> accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. >> - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids >> aspect if needed. >>=20 >> Please find the new version below: >>=20 >> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Proposed Charter >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation a= re >> increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across >> heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols >> require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologi= cal >> location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure a= nd >> protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network= >> virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol >> extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the= >> traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for >> packet delivery. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking >> information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand >> greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable >> networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y >> and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r >> inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> To this end, the working group shall: >>=20 >> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping= >> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping= >> protocols and network virtualization. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new= >> mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new >> functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity >> while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring t= hat >> information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on= a >> need-to-know basis. >>=20 > Padma, >=20 > I don't think this goes far enough in terms of protections for users > against the potential abuse of something that might be able to > individually and persistently identify them on the Internet. First, > it's not clear what network layer identity means in this context. I > hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of identifiers as opposed to > the identity of individual users or devices. In any case maybe a > definition of identity might be in order here. Secondly, I think it > should be stated up front that identity cannot in any way be used to > identify individual users, it cannot be used to create a global > database of Internet users, in no way can it be used by networks or > governments to track or block individuals, nor can it ever be required > for communications. That implies network layer identities cannot > contain PII (personally identifiable information) and cannot be > permanently assigned to users or devices (in the same spirit that > Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs because of privacy > concerns). >=20 > Thanks, > Tom >=20 > When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to have a l= ook at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within t= he ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) >=20 > Be goode, >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, p= uede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exc= lusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario i= ndicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3= n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legi= slaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que n= os lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a su destru= cci=C3=B3n. >=20 > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confident= ial information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named a= bove. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are h= ereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this commu= nication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in e= rror, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have r= eceived this communication in error and then delete it. >=20 > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=A1= rio, pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9 p= ara uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. 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Se rece= beu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente po= r esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o From nobody Mon Aug 7 11:11:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A379D132641 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iWnIkflxO1Ow for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x233.google.com (mail-pg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83D3B1325DD for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id y129so4523148pgy.4 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=yDqxwxyKnfFLtdhgVt5wZSTXzGGedYM7SUEPKFyTxEg=; b=NxHSKFLUJH1uc7kCCoX32PU66r5a2bvUX5Ib0cK1+wyes/6KPONfEdRe1WEiP/HFOK QvvHq4Gvd64MsqeV90JxH+dIvWnVLd3xJKeLXLvFJkXYVlWtO9Xl3Ykr7tPLsChgCEB6 vFL+peUzaImJvMyuAvyuyDVAOaFe8EVFSCt2MpGPvK4uJam+eTIE1Nxy/84NVnnuDvDC 8xDSBCAZG1Au7ZAPL9P0cy9otNbdffv19E+KPMQdmzL90JrirtA3MvrQ+SSfk4TUFOdG kIVt3oaWuq06HKQCbNMPPLbfo3zxP9Tuk2iH/04juUGJUnM3mND+0IGFLe/SNqzcjSeG DP0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=yDqxwxyKnfFLtdhgVt5wZSTXzGGedYM7SUEPKFyTxEg=; b=NUvq52r7qLhJ6muAioS3SGnti59vrt8tKyVHKA99mvumd8AkGNTctHbFh+HHvjAjO8 Fm31uKNKxvEtQy/6kPgzahG8yQeeyi+stH+2mZOqFOMinv9b3IzxaVBUWEcz74Anz2Rv SmBK0whcDIvWYDWg9VcvpJgl8Pm117/VhgWYCIupaE5jOcD5M24KEs0P8hwBSV9a0CDf 1qxFdAxl8BU6SKcSqYeX1YWYXeYnJAoU/yW/qTJwp6z1WOTdSA1PG0N9s8kUIrF9VnOS Li5BLLu6YvR/W93vYevS5+ZRBE1ucmNK8193qOQ2EcVRYEqhgaGV+m+2Wf6a/cbsMhf/ mRlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jkZAruyMhrEbw9VX3YK0F9UdYhByU9GGmMWotCBPCsEiLCSgCx +RX6wVkkGTJliS+d9PI= X-Received: by 10.98.149.215 with SMTP id c84mr1468356pfk.95.1502129506302; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:380:857d:2312:dc4d:77f3:9261:864b? ([2600:380:857d:2312:dc4d:77f3:9261:864b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r87sm16632432pfb.112.2017.08.07.11.11.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:11:44 -0700 Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <169E8D0E-62E6-4680-AB75-5F080BAC357F@gmail.com> References: To: Tom Herbert Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 18:11:50 -0000 Hi Tom Thanks for your comments. See below Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2017, at 08:23, Tom Herbert wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault > wrote: >> Dear IDEAS, >>=20 >> Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list a= nd >> off the list. >>=20 >> This new version should address comments from: >> - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address so= me >> of your comments on clarity. >> - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . >> - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this >> version. >> -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s >> modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic >> identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity= >> concept and functionalities. >> - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an >> ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o >> accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. >> - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids >> aspect if needed. >>=20 >> Please find the new version below: >>=20 >> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Proposed Charter >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation a= re >> increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across >> heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols >> require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologi= cal >> location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure a= nd >> protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network= >> virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol >> extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the= >> traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for >> packet delivery. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking >> information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand >> greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable >> networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y >> and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r >> inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> To this end, the working group shall: >>=20 >> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping= >> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping= >> protocols and network virtualization. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new= >> mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new >> functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity >> while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring t= hat >> information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on= a >> need-to-know basis. >>=20 > Padma, >=20 > I don't think this goes far enough in terms of protections for users > against the potential abuse of something that might be able to > individually and persistently identify them on the Internet. First, > it's not clear what network layer identity means in this context. I > hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of identifiers as opposed to > the identity of individual users or devices. In any case maybe a > definition of identity might be in order here. Good point! This portion needs more clarity. > Secondly, I think it > should be stated up front that identity cannot in any way be used to > identify individual users, it cannot be used to create a global > database of Internet users, in no way can it be used by networks or > governments to track or block individuals, nor can it ever be required > for communications. That implies network layer identities cannot > contain PII (personally identifiable information) and cannot be > permanently assigned to users or devices (in the same spirit that > Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs because of privacy > concerns). >=20 =20 The network identity does not equate to an individual user. A crisp definiti= on will greatly help clarify this. I am not sure we can state some of the requirements as is. Anything of this s= ort must be worded very carefully....=20 Padma=20 > Thanks, > Tom >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Some examples of the problem space are: >>=20 >> - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructu= re >> is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networkin= g >> policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to >> identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces >> operational and deployment complexity. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal >> information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way t= o >> prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er >> grain rules. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable= >> for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, >> when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s >> can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint >> communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining >> their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers a= nd >> access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and >> conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op >> a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and >> provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common >> framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services >> (GRIDS). >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes >> needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled >> protocols. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the >> modular framework: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t >> protocols >>=20 >> - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, >> multihoming, ...) >>=20 >> - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d >> identifiers. >>=20 >> - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, >> update of information for identifiers..) >>=20 >> - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o >> look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particu= lar >> endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) >>=20 >> - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) >>=20 >> - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure >> interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , >> it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> WG deliverables include the definition: >>=20 >> Generic Identity Services Framework >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> WG sustaining/informational documents may include: >>=20 >> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n a >> draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the effort= s >> of the Working Group and help new comers: >>=20 >> - Problem statement >>=20 >> - Use cases >>=20 >> - Requirements >>=20 >> - Applications of the architecture for use cases >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Milestones >>=20 >> March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework >>=20 >> August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework >>=20 >> December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >>=20 From nobody Mon Aug 7 11:24:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58752132369 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id be4dg0VByvCm for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com (mail-wr0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47C37131D6B for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id k71so4713031wrc.2 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P1iZqL76/8H2kBlaZU4krVubgfaG/A3KV+h0dDfovOg=; b=DLNNon89C46nOG7wfv0XFkOkrjY8UHZLtViRKGf09FA/J+wCpXMqdAaNqcADWnAr/Y mEcbE8DqLOxcKIGIPMrSkv5I/GHT7kfHwL/9OF+pdDRAQd3JKfCVbV55AWEZWB2F/vQU zGAtMkHpGQd07/ECVcfPn/+L/nKBI7B+rfcm/yiCpMR/TqLvi833GdfJVXh/TmAzEcPO /Gcu0Prfp54WqshYhHQmmVbUKj3tReD9OGNLIrQY55kz6bXdsRXgpSIJ2qUkRnIELlXY 9+K7SMcuLqRIrOumhdQBK3Z4nzIYnkksZSGoMQ5Ynt/6gRxfnYTaQzhJfaaPyzonDseE hRHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P1iZqL76/8H2kBlaZU4krVubgfaG/A3KV+h0dDfovOg=; b=XicXtDeppEC8J5PtbhNK5kDmhjkN6aUUIuEf9BP2vgUXoPnLkvbA2IejtkXovGoIAY Xa/cZO02Zb5U6I5K7Zsd6JZCIgUhIhrSOcmIRrfZwZbx3yjTQyPG4Jd1bIpAdYk4MKsI PKOeNRqhOVxgru2R7ReYASUJqS4iUWsjPIJ2QAKZzYfz/X/AGBblW9FbXTdXyGEDfflV P1q7GVEXA3Zi4IUp040tfGpTFhEEGm4iG02r+0W7hWzPXxwZHVcG44krU37efvAZubbf 4tOG8xKsMy0TMEeyzOo28KSfQrLlnUyunnQyp+ZzZmEQ3D02vii3ov2QWclFtMeI/6PO rOxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5ivKM6GaKnK5Ky24FTg8oIAfio9LqMCdMVAyP2FjjN2MC32c8My Y6jrl4qeLccirJNADKe4X/q40TZX6SIM X-Received: by 10.223.144.38 with SMTP id h35mr1156384wrh.114.1502130236620; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:23:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 18:24:07 -0000 On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list = and > off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address so= me > of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s > modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic > identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity > concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o > accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids > aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation a= re > increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologi= cal > location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure a= nd > protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network > virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol > extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the > traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for > packet delivery. > > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping > protocols and network virtualization. > Padma, I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses" Tom > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring t= hat > information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on= a > need-to-know basis. > > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructu= re > is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networkin= g > policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to > identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers = and > access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op > a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t > protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particu= lar > endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n a > draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the effort= s > of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Mon Aug 7 11:24:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B02813241D for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3dqArCEnh50 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com (mail-wr0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47C37131D6B for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id k71so4713031wrc.2 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P1iZqL76/8H2kBlaZU4krVubgfaG/A3KV+h0dDfovOg=; b=DLNNon89C46nOG7wfv0XFkOkrjY8UHZLtViRKGf09FA/J+wCpXMqdAaNqcADWnAr/Y mEcbE8DqLOxcKIGIPMrSkv5I/GHT7kfHwL/9OF+pdDRAQd3JKfCVbV55AWEZWB2F/vQU zGAtMkHpGQd07/ECVcfPn/+L/nKBI7B+rfcm/yiCpMR/TqLvi833GdfJVXh/TmAzEcPO /Gcu0Prfp54WqshYhHQmmVbUKj3tReD9OGNLIrQY55kz6bXdsRXgpSIJ2qUkRnIELlXY 9+K7SMcuLqRIrOumhdQBK3Z4nzIYnkksZSGoMQ5Ynt/6gRxfnYTaQzhJfaaPyzonDseE hRHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P1iZqL76/8H2kBlaZU4krVubgfaG/A3KV+h0dDfovOg=; b=XicXtDeppEC8J5PtbhNK5kDmhjkN6aUUIuEf9BP2vgUXoPnLkvbA2IejtkXovGoIAY Xa/cZO02Zb5U6I5K7Zsd6JZCIgUhIhrSOcmIRrfZwZbx3yjTQyPG4Jd1bIpAdYk4MKsI PKOeNRqhOVxgru2R7ReYASUJqS4iUWsjPIJ2QAKZzYfz/X/AGBblW9FbXTdXyGEDfflV P1q7GVEXA3Zi4IUp040tfGpTFhEEGm4iG02r+0W7hWzPXxwZHVcG44krU37efvAZubbf 4tOG8xKsMy0TMEeyzOo28KSfQrLlnUyunnQyp+ZzZmEQ3D02vii3ov2QWclFtMeI/6PO rOxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5ivKM6GaKnK5Ky24FTg8oIAfio9LqMCdMVAyP2FjjN2MC32c8My Y6jrl4qeLccirJNADKe4X/q40TZX6SIM X-Received: by 10.223.144.38 with SMTP id h35mr1156384wrh.114.1502130236620; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:23:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.156 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 11:23:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 18:24:08 -0000 On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list = and > off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address so= me > of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s > modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic > identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity > concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o > accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids > aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation a= re > increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologi= cal > location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure a= nd > protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network > virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol > extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the > traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for > packet delivery. > > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping > protocols and network virtualization. > Padma, I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses" Tom > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring t= hat > information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on= a > need-to-know basis. > > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructu= re > is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networkin= g > policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to > identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers = and > access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to devel= op > a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t > protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particu= lar > endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n a > draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the effort= s > of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > From nobody Mon Aug 7 13:24:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B77132355 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:24:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8lG6Qy-cS8wx for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 543C0132381 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id d145so9188079qkc.2 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:24:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z6O6R+NzHhyxwqN715589I8c0IjoAPEPdwWSe5SOGJw=; b=jAND33C+El7n2JP59CqmpecGfDsoKaGtVvf4+C6NEjRpTzGZkG5oSacL4xRvSvrLum hTEsTN+WjnsGSFDYep5KEeKyLJs+C1ff0hsYyaLZPlzKhIgy6Hn4Vq9HmMaYsdQ+SNWh EC6Twf6LZwNPxvlikOBA86ApSH0Jf80cW3tFP9Me7x2iIi3XN3mPN6syPfV/T8XhbjwM 0J4+yguOEDJDfvw9AwecPI0/gCE9bTHLj6GMFkfGQkWg4uB1PkNB+BXFBv5Ejan7Ph7e RzzkRRIzGCSZ3ThFbzkfNXUco6jQRPCThjpjv3mpxbopo+s8y3DL24Jnm/j4LKaNcGPE BcyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z6O6R+NzHhyxwqN715589I8c0IjoAPEPdwWSe5SOGJw=; b=o2FQ8EQO3vgx2QAItyVF41OaOX+YLxMHsR3bcVRjX120+ujmrnpnmjNaunVtN8DIsZ l5duyN/kwbIk0NWcb9olnxueLgAP3jmXjwf/H0xLhqjfCvhjK7/RVi5rpJw/N7YPwDiA v8sjHyQYYM2tzPYCXU8FZuBK49VEP4ie+KuNZKrJ0ITTl8nWSTNYnb7QS8TMRC51Mj2k QJrE4UJGQT2zMwNeAoO5sdPSksxtwAgRYy1cn2ZM4Z6LRu4ej7p40jdGWomlpidCSF6z DafoMoQ36F9YmYEhQr6ex622mHjUpNwmUNzn3ZYHUiMCaMMOPhAS1ZDX6615lcO7UWa/ zjvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5ikbzk8JR8OVI+AbYvNjuNW0YtlKt5yOsxGSig0nlNKTdK/omT/ IEFk1lUcsPx6ocZZYTCzQoqjyTVK8w== X-Received: by 10.55.162.210 with SMTP id l201mr2640195qke.180.1502137473370; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:24:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:24:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:24:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Diego R. Lopez" Cc: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 20:24:37 -0000 Hi Diego Thanks for the pointer. Padma Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2017, at 08:57, Diego R. Lopez w= rote: > > Hi, > > > On 7/8/2017, 17:23, "Ideas on behalf of Tom Herbert" wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault > wrote: >> Dear IDEAS, >> >> Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list= and >> off the list. >> >> This new version should address comments from: >> - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address s= ome >> of your comments on clarity. >> - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your additio= n. >> - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this >> version. >> -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework = is >> modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the ba= sic >> identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identit= y >> concept and functionalities. >> - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an >> ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough = to >> accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. >> - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids >> aspect if needed. >> >> Please find the new version below: >> >> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> Proposed Charter >> >> >> >> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation = are >> increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across >> heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols >> require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topolog= ical >> location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure = and >> protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as networ= k >> virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol >> extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond th= e >> traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for >> packet delivery. >> >> >> >> At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking >> information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand >> greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable >> networking applications and services that provide a high degree of priva= cy >> and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with great= er >> inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. >> >> >> >> To this end, the working group shall: >> >> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mappin= g >> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mappin= g >> protocols and network virtualization. >> >> >> >> - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and ne= w >> mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new >> functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity >> while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring = that >> information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only o= n a >> need-to-know basis. >> > Padma, > > I don't think this goes far enough in terms of protections for users > against the potential abuse of something that might be able to > individually and persistently identify them on the Internet. First, > it's not clear what network layer identity means in this context. I > hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of identifiers as opposed to > the identity of individual users or devices. In any case maybe a > definition of identity might be in order here. Secondly, I think it > should be stated up front that identity cannot in any way be used to > identify individual users, it cannot be used to create a global > database of Internet users, in no way can it be used by networks or > governments to track or block individuals, nor can it ever be required > for communications. That implies network layer identities cannot > contain PII (personally identifiable information) and cannot be > permanently assigned to users or devices (in the same spirit that > Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs because of privacy > concerns). > > Thanks, > Tom > > When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to have a = look at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within= the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) > > Be goode, > > > > ________________________________ > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, = puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso e= xclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatari= o indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci= =C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de = la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. 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Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imed= iatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o From nobody Mon Aug 7 13:27:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B047B131CC2 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:27:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e46iiGxty8WV for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5934131CB2 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id d145so9234224qkc.2 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:27:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NDejtSWHzrLylqCGb4KF5LzGyK0eXCMqfh9hFShcX5U=; b=suMdDRm1ddwPyzGGzxdSZbQzCXQSuoDx2TGdsqh8h5620lbjD81uBWhgZer4OjAHTv Bpz4fwkziIulxdMcqOHjsR051Vwc6uFxA477QKDR6hiKp23oYSO1nlbYzf8rwsbvtswS e5YUnj+GbJVjt+GJe0tE2+MDuH9YltW9YemQ4svFZz12KJkWo24p/zJmAxRZUoq6gAem MzuQwjye65EPKh0ztLLNOtcJcGikRxoK3QVI16VEDvclNRUi2nAaKDhyzVPOEldxn/Qs iD2/AJTwiJ1xHT2pYsAO2VDs35riAVF4P0FcGaROw+QatCKNQrte4iE/4+RmqcYOHF21 /wKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NDejtSWHzrLylqCGb4KF5LzGyK0eXCMqfh9hFShcX5U=; b=aFtQxHnYruBUpGdNw0Ad+scaglS0BHaA5YCs/SwRffGvqUvyBU/Zs3gjXYP60x113Z gOd4r668FN1htET4kVOa3KFm6SfcPhPKN1aVU1wl1P7G9tgFKcuoF4PYBUAqEVt+IzeH 3Zkk3pqsXx9j5KPTiHYH7RQRT48XHq3sykLXMS8FwzQPSMfUnFZArj5I86MIuLYVOCOY dgiswgC/MiKI8FMMbNM2VnYZkxPWCRwnKpPzICtZhWXAaOwlgQBFl/Ae0InjPGdGx4Sw 2wtxQt15rdJB8BT12BP/UKnPGTU+swrImAuQ5A6DpYTHU8TzLvAmGL7TzfQbxA1TS1Hw LCbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jMgnrCVMmzJcdl9AOzs1fp+whnGIoErD2UVBcKe/xtG/Q2w/3A Fh50zySLt+fpZp5Zkod5b7EzcOmtsA== X-Received: by 10.55.78.23 with SMTP id c23mr2245597qkb.323.1502137662907; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:27:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:27:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:27:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a680acd285205562fade6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 20:27:46 -0000 --001a114a680acd285205562fade6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tom > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping > > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping > > protocols and network virtualization. > > > Padma, > > I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common > mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about > something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control > plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for > identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well > as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical > addresses" > > Fine with me. Let's poll the list for consensus on this. Thanks Padma > Tom > > --001a114a680acd285205562fade6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tom


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
>
> To this end, the working group shall:
>
> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapp= ing
> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapp= ing
> protocols and network virtualization.
>
Padma,

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common
mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about
something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for
identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well
as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical
addresses"


Fine with me.

Let's pol= l the list for consensus on this.

Thanks
Padma
=C2=A0
Tom

--001a114a680acd285205562fade6-- From nobody Mon Aug 7 14:34:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07397124BE8 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 14:34:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDVgODdv_PLM for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 14:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 233CB1200F3 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 14:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMD56124; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 21:34:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 22:34:01 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 14:33:52 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Tom Herbert CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgUS7uPdtb6kawD7XMB3wLtKJ5q4cAgAAilQD//5w1UA== Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 21:33:51 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.112] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16FSJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.5988DCCB.0106, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 568c37afbae3014cd6950539b3eda132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:42:30 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault , Tom Herbert CC: "ideas@ietf.org" , Padma Pillay-Esnault Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgUS7uPdtb6kawD7XMB3wLtKJ5q4cAgAAilQD//5w1UIAAe0SAgADVykA= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 17:42:29 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.108] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0201.5989F815.003E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 018e6e1cce410ee72e0571540e9b9256 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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[127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBE61321B1 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yh6WWgl9TQyy for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A44CF132A04 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DSZ41365; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 20:16:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:16:52 +0100 Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:16:37 -0700 From: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault To: Alexander Clemm , Tom Herbert CC: "ideas@ietf.org" , Padma Pillay-Esnault Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgMTdLfPDqsEeAy5/b+sfLkaJ5q4cAgAAilQCAABJ7gP//jgiwgAHDqYD//7VtsA== Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 20:16:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.231] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FF77BSJCEML702CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.598A1C36.0041, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.153, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 018e6e1cce410ee72e0571540e9b9256 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Z2h0OjBpbjttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjUuMHB0Ij4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFu IGNsYXNzPSJob2VuemIiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojODg4ODg4Ij5Ub208L3NwYW4+PC9z cGFuPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rp dj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FF77BSJCEML702CHMchi_-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 21:35:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53D012702E for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dn2KkvDXwekS for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x232.google.com (mail-qt0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDFAE120227 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 16so30421744qtz.4 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 21:35:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DWNRYnxk9xLQLwyzar/eE3S4Tic4Sd6fwXqtC9CTTbs=; 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AHYfb5j/2GyR2GNJ7gxT9Wf8vX2bZscoa4WLvtpyxYKXdaGQfMdK9Fx3 YA9RlZ/bFmzjIQHGFtubwdHFMJUgtQ== X-Received: by 10.237.41.230 with SMTP id o93mr9172879qtd.27.1502253352024; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 21:35:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:35:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:35:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault Cc: Alexander Clemm , Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c124b8a68ffbf05564a9d52" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 04:35:56 -0000 --94eb2c124b8a68ffbf05564a9d52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17. Please send your comments and feedback on the list. IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D Proposed Charter Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. To this end, the working group shall: - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. The common mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis. Some examples of the problem space are: - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules. - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols. Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework: - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...) - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers. - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..) - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. type) - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. WG deliverables include: Generic Identity Services Framework WG sustaining/informational documents may include: These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: - Problem statement - Use cases - Requirements - Applications of the architecture for use cases Milestones March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault wrote: > Sure > > > > However, been wondering if it is best not to be so specific in the charte= r. > > Thoughts? > > > > Padma > > > > *From:* Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM > *To:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > OK. > > > > If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be > useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means= of > example, mappings between identifiers. > > > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm ; Tom Herbert < > tom@herbertland.com> > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > Alex > > > > My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for removing of identity concept= . > > He asked to make the section on common infrastructure clearer with this > sentence. > > > > I agree with you that the mappings should not be restricted to 1->n > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM > *To:* Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > I am not sure we should restrict ourselves to mapping between identifiers > and locators. > > > > I would at a minimum want to include mappings between identifiers, and > between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings of > identifiers. > > > > If we take out the identity concept, we should also rename the WG. > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM > *To:* Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > Hi Tom > > > > > > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mappi= ng > > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mappi= ng > > protocols and network virtualization. > > > > Padma, > > I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common > mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about > something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control > plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for > identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well > as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical > addresses" > > > > Fine with me. > > > > Let's poll the list for consensus on this. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > Tom > > > > --94eb2c124b8a68ffbf05564a9d52 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello All

Here is the latest version as= of 08/08/17.

Please send your comments and feedba= ck on the list.


IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D <= span>

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier= -Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protoco= ls require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologica= l location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensi= ons are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

At the same time, end users require greater privacy = for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks = aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree o= f privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:

- define and develop a common mapping system, contro= l plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator = protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

=C2=A0

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-ide= ntifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers.= The common mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These n= ew functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity wh= ile preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

=C2=A0

Some examples of the problem space are:=

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of = a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent ba= sic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that app= ly to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces opera= tional and deployment complexity.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identif= ier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no= way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fi= ner grain rules.

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody = to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining th= eir identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and acce= ss control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group = is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-base= d protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to = the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS= ).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework an= d identifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on t= hese areas for the modular framework:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. di= scovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identitie= s and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. ac= cess to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking pol= icies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traf= fic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or sl= ow changing, e.g. type)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropria= te.

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Gro= ups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appro= priate.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include: <= span>

These documents may not necessarily be published, bu= t may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to supp= ort the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity S= ervices framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services f= ramework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framewo= rk draft to the IESG


On Tu= e, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault <<= a href=3D"mailto:padma@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">padma@huawei.com&g= t; wrote:

Sure

=C2=A0

However, been wondering i= f it is best not to be so specific in the charter.

Thoughts?

=C2=A0

Padma

=C2=A0

From: Alexande= r Clemm
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM
To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault


Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

OK.<= /p>

=C2=A0

If we want to have a more= specific list of supported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of t= hose other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means of example, mappings between identifiers.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Padmad= evi Pillay Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Alex=

=C2=A0

My understanding is that = Tom did NOT ask for removing of identity concept.

He asked to make the sect= ion on common infrastructure clearer with this sentence.

=C2=A0

I agree with you that the= mappings should not be restricted to 1->n

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [<= a href=3D"mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:ideas-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

I am not sure we should r= estrict ourselves to mapping between identifiers and locators.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I would at a minimum want= to include mappings between identifiers, and between identifiers and (for = lack of a better term) groupings of identifiers.

=C2=A0

If we take out the identi= ty concept, we should also rename the WG. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Ideas = [mailto:ideas-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Hi Tom

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

>
> To this end, the working group shall:
>
> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapp= ing
> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapp= ing
> protocols and network virtualization.
>

Padma,

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common
mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about
something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for
identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well
as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical
addresses"

=C2=A0

Fine with me.

=C2=A0

Let's poll the list for consensus on this.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

Tom

=C2=A0


--94eb2c124b8a68ffbf05564a9d52-- From sam.sun.ietf@gmail.com Tue Aug 8 22:55:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCDC131DA2 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 22:55:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6-ocewkLo8o for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 22:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x243.google.com (mail-oi0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88A441320CC for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 22:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x243.google.com with SMTP id j194so4841434oib.4 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 22:55:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=GtaH2+GtsIjf47Ua4izrX8ETJRPjr/zbwc2f3RaU8MM=; b=Jx6G8jL8BhZoJJ+P4MoXjZ++neM4G3VUDPqS9OFmM3hE1utlOw2B2DXRmp5Q2D9P1F C0sx7jK0jaok5De09zu41N20P9B+WEGkSABTEQMooBk5lCZulDlA1Tp9gfD2Mhdtqjnv DiO62vSno9KFgTN8cjyIkA9n/nDrad5p8oJYzMQ4MIQGy/AX6Z/cG1TTwM55ozry/9ZU 5bMx2V6M3ETRwaitJ2RS0UCbg3AcsxZOhA/Rc5PVBErC6FFP2aJ+Jhumarp0A10TEx7F mfDYQrihdicLkjCwsCdqVZU/fZ9DfoG1VtSQsxfYYlExrgoWoSP8k3Vyzrwylvi6kONk DYyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=GtaH2+GtsIjf47Ua4izrX8ETJRPjr/zbwc2f3RaU8MM=; b=n0p6QajNFCa3lwLcFCRzo2t37XoDJ4niDEveNuB1UXtDDrrMHp1U2WPOqwUXbhuAek MdfVbok1+eqHAxF6YiZEjL6zq+9zjGnzwBAneZ5jPXPNzM7EwQEcenYo7p0WxcNzKNlD rd8sF5tRCL1HcIW9NXzaK/p1VZmh4hl9fEKtGn9iOu11endsselh4kV2FHcIgCouigNm CoJreB4qVQFuprPdgajqeTneZUYCiRYMnjp81n0MDn1lMhdoMqvaIcs1vfUY6cBxlfrn V/g/E7d/llInjXSlzX/ii0sjezfIFou9qZxo+i0q5tZhg7ND3O9Fh0nmCIfwpTAG2hKb vvOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5h7zzDXXEtb+6OPFbBiZqSBKUgf1r1lYLNnNyLUa7N6sPK+npAN YCeWKKj2kO7R/NfVPx8= X-Received: by 10.202.55.7 with SMTP id e7mr7546875oia.220.1502258128790; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 22:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssmac.local (ip68-100-96-187.dc.dc.cox.net. [68.100.96.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w134sm3477596oif.32.2017.08.08.22.55.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Aug 2017 22:55:28 -0700 (PDT) To: ideas@ietf.org References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Sam Sun Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 01:55:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------227D57DD9FD45ED147E1378B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 05:56:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------227D57DD9FD45ED147E1378B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Padma, The latest version looks good! Thanks for putting it all together. A couple of questions need a bit clarification: 1) in the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols"? 2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? For example, Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS). All the best, Sam On 8/9/17 12:35 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Hello All > > Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17. > > Please send your comments and feedback on the list. > > > IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS” > > Proposed Charter > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator > separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and > multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator > separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to > discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet > delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by > identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. > However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are > needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional > discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet > delivery. > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their > networking information and protection from outside threats, while > operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled > networks aim to enable networking applications and services that > provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their > networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided > by today’s networks. > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and > related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator > protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping > combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols > that map virtual to physical addresses > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and > new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. The > common mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. > These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity > through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result > from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their > location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis. > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and > consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and > infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as > identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no > way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined > policy or finer grain rules. > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of > temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information > of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based > protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We > refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic > Identity Services (GRIDS). > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on > changes needed for interactions between the framework and > identifier-enabled protocols. > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > associated identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. > ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding > traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. > type) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when > appropriate. > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to > support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > > wrote: > > Sure > > However, been wondering if it is best not to be so specific in the > charter. > > Thoughts? > > Padma > > *From:*Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM > *To:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org ; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New > Version > > OK. > > If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it > may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well – by > means of example, mappings between identifiers. > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > *From:*Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm >; Tom Herbert > > > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org ; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New > Version > > Alex > > My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for removing of identity > concept. > > He asked to make the section on common infrastructure clearer with > this sentence. > > I agree with you that the mappings should not be restricted to 1->n > > Thanks > > Padma > > *From:*Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM > *To:* Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New > Version > > I am not sure we should restrict ourselves to mapping between > identifiers and locators. > > I would at a minimum want to include mappings between identifiers, > and between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings > of identifiers. > > If we take out the identity concept, we should also rename the WG. > > --- Alex > > *From:*Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Padma > Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM > *To:* Tom Herbert > > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New > Version > > Hi Tom > > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > > > - define a framework for the development of an > identifier/locator mapping > > system that provides a common solution for all > identifier/locator mapping > > protocols and network virtualization. > > > > Padma, > > I think this statement could be stronger and express that the > common > mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How > about > something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, > control > plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for > identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, > as well > as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical > addresses" > > Fine with me. > > Let's poll the list for consensus on this. > > Thanks > > Padma > > Tom > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --------------227D57DD9FD45ED147E1378B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Padma,

The latest version looks good! Thanks for putting it all together.

A couple of questions need a bit clarification:

1) in the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols"?

2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? For example,

   Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution

   Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS).


All the best,
Sam


On 8/9/17 12:35 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote:
Hello All

Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17.

Please send your comments and feedback on the list.


IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS”

  

Proposed Charter

                 

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. 

 

At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today’s networks.  

 

To this end, the working group shall:

- define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

 

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. The common mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

 

Some examples of the problem space are:

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

 

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules.

 

- Privacy:  The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.  The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

 

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

 

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

 

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework:

                 

- Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. type)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

 

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

                 

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework

 

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

 

 

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG


On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault <padma@huawei.com> wrote:

Sure

 

However, been wondering if it is best not to be so specific in the charter.

Thoughts?

 

Padma

 

From: Alexander Clemm
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM
To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault


Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

 

OK.

 

If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well – by means of example, mappings between identifiers. 

 

Thanks

--- Alex

 

From: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

 

Alex

 

My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for removing of identity concept.

He asked to make the section on common infrastructure clearer with this sentence.

 

I agree with you that the mappings should not be restricted to 1->n

 

Thanks

Padma

 

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

 

I am not sure we should restrict ourselves to mapping between identifiers and locators. 

 

I would at a minimum want to include mappings between identifiers, and between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings of identifiers.

 

If we take out the identity concept, we should also rename the WG.  

 

--- Alex

 

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

 

Hi Tom

 

 

>
> To this end, the working group shall:
>
> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping
> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping
> protocols and network virtualization.
>

Padma,

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common
mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about
something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control
plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for
identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well
as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical
addresses"

 

Fine with me.

 

Let's poll the list for consensus on this.

 

Thanks

Padma

 

Tom

 




_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas

--------------227D57DD9FD45ED147E1378B-- From nobody Wed Aug 9 11:15:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B437132476 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bczabUWjEhzK for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E410132474 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DTB29790; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:15:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:15:11 +0100 Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:15:04 -0700 From: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault To: Sam Sun , "ideas@ietf.org" CC: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgMTdLfPDqsEeAy5/b+sfLkaJ5q4cAgAAilQCAABJ7gP//jgiwgAHDqYD//7VtsIABAR+AgAAWPYCAAFcBgA== Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 18:15:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.53] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EC7A99B9A59C1B4695037EEB5036666B026FFB36SJCEML702CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.598B5132.01FB, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.153, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 018e6e1cce410ee72e0571540e9b9256 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:49:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rVZ4dbVE0Ct for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FB37132195 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMH25829; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:49:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 22:49:39 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:49:29 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Padmadevi Pillay Esnault CC: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgUS7uPdtb6kawD7XMB3wLtKJ5q4cAgAAilQD//5w1UIAAe0SAgADVykCAAKH5gIAAi3yAgACrVyA= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 21:49:29 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED79A@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.107] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED79ASJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.598B8375.0184, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 568c37afbae3014cd6950539b3eda132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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pFD5WiIFntMJ for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E567132021 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMH28746; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 22:25:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:25:27 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:25:13 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Padmadevi Pillay Esnault CC: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgNVx45kpBtkOBA2pvgY37Y6J5q4cAgAAilQCAABJ7gIAABP6AgAFMs4CAACsQgIAAi3yAgACypHA= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 22:25:13 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A220@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.246.1] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A220SJCEML703CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090206.598B8BDA.0056, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 568c37afbae3014cd6950539b3eda132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 22:25:36 -0000 --_000_25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A220SJCEML703CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U29tZSBjb21tZW50cyBpbi1saW5lIFtVbWFdOg0KDQpCUiwNCg0KLS0NClVtYSBDLg0KDQpGcm9t OiBJZGVhcyBbbWFpbHRvOmlkZWFzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBQYWRt YSBQaWxsYXktRXNuYXVsdA0KU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgQXVndXN0IDA4LCAyMDE3IDk6MzYgUE0N ClRvOiBQYWRtYWRldmkgUGlsbGF5IEVzbmF1bHQgPHBhZG1hQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+DQpDYzogVG9t IEhlcmJlcnQgPHRvbUBoZXJiZXJ0bGFuZC5jb20+OyBpZGVhc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgQWxleGFuZGVy IENsZW1tIDxhbGV4YW5kZXIuY2xlbW1AaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSWRlYXNd IFlvdXIgSW5wdXQgcmVxdWVzdGVkOiBDaGFydGVyIFByb3Bvc2FsIE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uDQoNCkhl bGxvIEFsbA0KDQpIZXJlIGlzIHRoZSBsYXRlc3QgdmVyc2lvbiBhcyBvZiAwOC8wOC8xNy4NCg0K UGxlYXNlIHNlbmQgeW91ciBjb21tZW50cyBhbmQgZmVlZGJhY2sgb24gdGhlIGxpc3QuDQoNCg0K 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nANzyNx5HTkO for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 111BE13228D for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DTB54081; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 22:30:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:30:21 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:30:13 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: "Diego R. Lopez" , Tom Herbert , Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgNVx45kpBtkOBA2pvgY37Y6J5ePoAgAAJlQCAAxvyUA== Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 22:30:12 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A234@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> In-Reply-To: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.246.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.598B8CFF.0076, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 018e6e1cce410ee72e0571540e9b9256 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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Lopez" To: Uma Chunduri , Tom Herbert , Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzf0VnU7X7NZEetTe3DcOc6BqJ5A6EAgAArHICAA3DqAIAAKVSA Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 22:58:08 +0000 Message-ID: <16A0829F-78E9-4E8C-B719-B25431603939@telefonica.com> References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A234@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A234@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.21.0.170403 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com; x-originating-ip: [83.49.234.105] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB6PR0601MB2168; 6:JAceZtg2QfgiMQ2kL0P5ZVxp8SsOFEiX1Nj4lnO43+x563M5BxnQSWPF4sW/KhDE9UMPNUSuF1B6mj8cblvZuVtCn2ISXXW2S6pGbcyP6eeG8Rym2cKV25S5GD0rH7tJ+zqiNYG/tyyR2fCYMmjiPD1SC+IxnisNf9WoTpjP+p0EmUIJHtRRb7JRYoqtzBZx0KIDUyUjLqZE5UHcndg3930usdlpneCPsfTH8rFtWA/Q84bFfwxB9iZRIzTECdD8jhtCoWHRs58RUEmI/bo+tD660V4AiX/Ap7n6oI3OWqTmfCzHM3+xb4g9+pwmVYWwaryQHeqe9KUsLLImpjDSkQ==; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Aug 2017 22:58:08.2439 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0601MB2168 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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ZWRhIGEgc3VhIGRlc3RydWnDp8Ojbw0K From nobody Wed Aug 9 16:27:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECB11270AC for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 16:27:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wV-unRm45EmT for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 16:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC001127077 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 16:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DTB59088; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 23:27:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 00:27:03 +0100 Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.240]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 16:26:57 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: "Diego R. Lopez" , Tom Herbert , Padma Pillay-Esnault CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgNVx45kpBtkOBA2pvgY37Y6J5ePoAgAAJlQCAAxvyUIAAfkwA//+P/oA= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:26:55 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A265@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A234@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <16A0829F-78E9-4E8C-B719-B25431603939@telefonica.com> In-Reply-To: <16A0829F-78E9-4E8C-B719-B25431603939@telefonica.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.246.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.598B9A49.0019, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.5.240, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 018e6e1cce410ee72e0571540e9b9256 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 23:27:09 -0000 SGkgRGllZ28sDQoNCkluLWxpbmUgW1VtYTFdOg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0t LQ0KRnJvbTogRGllZ28gUi4gTG9wZXogW21haWx0bzpkaWVnby5yLmxvcGV6QHRlbGVmb25pY2Eu Y29tXSANClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgQXVndXN0IDA5LCAyMDE3IDM6NTggUE0NClRvOiBVbWEg Q2h1bmR1cmkgPHVtYS5jaHVuZHVyaUBodWF3ZWkuY29tPjsgVG9tIEhlcmJlcnQgPHRvbUBoZXJi ZXJ0bGFuZC5jb20+OyBQYWRtYSBQaWxsYXktRXNuYXVsdCA8cGFkbWEuaWV0ZkBnbWFpbC5jb20+ DQpDYzogaWRlYXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSWRlYXNdIFlvdXIgSW5wdXQgcmVx dWVzdGVkOiBDaGFydGVyIFByb3Bvc2FsIE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uDQoNCkhpIFVtYSwNCg0KT24gMTAv OC8yMDE3LCAyNDozMCAsICJVbWEgQ2h1bmR1cmkiIDx1bWEuY2h1bmR1cmlAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4g d3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICAgICAgPiAtIGluIGFkZGl0aW9uLCBpbnRyb2R1Y2UgdGhlIGNvbmNlcHQg b2YgaWRlbnRpdHktaWRlbnRpZmllciBzcGxpdCBhbmQgbmV3DQogICAgICAgID4gbWVjaGFuaXNt cyB0aGF0IGxldCBlbmRwb2ludHMgZHluYW1pY2FsbHkgY2hhbmdlIGlkZW50aWZpZXJzLiBUaGVz ZSBuZXcNCiAgICAgICAgPiBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXRpZXMgbWF5LCBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgZmFjaWxp dGF0ZSBhbm9ueW1pdHkgdGhyb3VnaCBvYnNjdXJpdHkNCiAgICAgICAgPiB3aGlsZSBwcmV2ZW50 aW5nIHNlY3VyaXR5IGlzc3VlcyB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IHJlc3VsdCBmcm9tIGFidXNlLCBlbnN1cmlu ZyB0aGF0DQogICAgICAgID4gaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQgYWN0dWFsIGVuZHBvaW50cyBhbmQg dGhlaXIgbG9jYXRpb24gaXMgcmV2ZWFsZWQgb25seSBvbiBhDQogICAgICAgID4gbmVlZC10by1r bm93IGJhc2lzLg0KICAgICAgICA+DQogICAgICAgIFBhZG1hLA0KDQogICAgICAgIEkgZG9uJ3Qg dGhpbmsgdGhpcyBnb2VzIGZhciBlbm91Z2ggaW4gdGVybXMgb2YgcHJvdGVjdGlvbnMgZm9yIHVz ZXJzDQogICAgICAgIGFnYWluc3QgdGhlIHBvdGVudGlhbCBhYnVzZSBvZiBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhh dCBtaWdodCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvDQogICAgICAgIGluZGl2aWR1YWxseSBhbmQgcGVyc2lzdGVudGx5 IGlkZW50aWZ5IHRoZW0gb24gdGhlIEludGVybmV0LiBGaXJzdCwNCiAgICAgICAgaXQncyBub3Qg Y2xlYXIgd2hhdCBuZXR3b3JrIGxheWVyIGlkZW50aXR5IG1lYW5zIGluIHRoaXMgY29udGV4dC4g SQ0KICAgICAgICBob3BlIGl0IHJlZmVycyB0byBhbiBhZCBob2MgY29sbGVjdGlvbiBvZiBpZGVu dGlmaWVycyBhcyBvcHBvc2VkIHRvDQogICAgICAgIHRoZSBpZGVudGl0eSBvZiBpbmRpdmlkdWFs IHVzZXJzIG9yIGRldmljZXMuIEluIGFueSBjYXNlIG1heWJlIGENCiAgICAgICAgZGVmaW5pdGlv biBvZiBpZGVudGl0eSBtaWdodCBiZSBpbiBvcmRlciBoZXJlLiBTZWNvbmRseSwgSSB0aGluayBp dA0KICAgICAgICBzaG91bGQgYmUgc3RhdGVkIHVwIGZyb250IHRoYXQgaWRlbnRpdHkgY2Fubm90 IGluIGFueSB3YXkgYmUgdXNlZCB0bw0KICAgICAgICBpZGVudGlmeSBpbmRpdmlkdWFsIHVzZXJz LCBpdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgdXNlZCB0byBjcmVhdGUgYSBnbG9iYWwNCiAgICAgICAgZGF0YWJhc2Ug b2YgSW50ZXJuZXQgdXNlcnMsIGluIG5vIHdheSBjYW4gaXQgYmUgdXNlZCBieSBuZXR3b3JrcyBv cg0KICAgICAgICBnb3Zlcm5tZW50cyB0byB0cmFjayBvciBibG9jayBpbmRpdmlkdWFscywgbm9y IGNhbiBpdCBldmVyIGJlIHJlcXVpcmVkDQogICAgICAgIGZvciBjb21tdW5pY2F0aW9ucy4gVGhh dCBpbXBsaWVzIG5ldHdvcmsgbGF5ZXIgaWRlbnRpdGllcyBjYW5ub3QNCiAgICAgICAgY29udGFp biBQSUkgKHBlcnNvbmFsbHkgaWRlbnRpZmlhYmxlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uKSBhbmQgY2Fubm90IGJl DQogICAgICAgIHBlcm1hbmVudGx5IGFzc2lnbmVkIHRvIHVzZXJzIG9yIGRldmljZXMgKGluIHRo ZSBzYW1lIHNwaXJpdCB0aGF0DQogICAgICAgIEV0aGVybmV0IGFkZHJlc3NlcyB3ZXJlIHJlbW92 ZWQgZnJvbSBJSURzIGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgcHJpdmFjeQ0KICAgICAgICBjb25jZXJucykuDQoNCiAg ICAgICAgVGhhbmtzLA0KICAgICAgICBUb20NCg0KICAgIFdoZW4gaXQgY29tZXMgdG8gdGhlc2Ug Y29uY2VybnMgSeKAmWQgc3Ryb25nbHkgcmVjb21tZW5kIHRvIGhhdmUgYSBsb29rIGF0IGhvdyBp ZGVudGl0eSBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIHdlcmUgZXhjaGFuZ2VkIGFuZCB0cnVzdCBlc3RhYmxpc2hlZCB3 aXRoaW4gdGhlIEFCRkFCIGZyYW1ld29yayAoaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy93Zy9hYmZh Yi8pDQoNCiAgICBbVW1hXTogVGhvdWdoICB0aGlzIGlzIG5vdCBhYm91dCBTU09zIG9yIGFwcGxp Y2F0aW9uIHN0dWZmLCB0aGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBwb2ludGVyLg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICBJIGFsd2F5cyBiZWxpZXZlZCBFQVAgaGFzIGEgcm9sZSB0byBwbGF5IGZvciBJRHkgYXV0aCBw cm9jZWR1cmVzIGFuZCBsb3Qgb2YgY29uY2VybnMgYnJvdWdodCBvdXQgaGVyZSAoZXNwZWNpYWxs eSByZWxhdGVkIHRvIElkZW50aXR5LXByaXZhY3kpIGFyZSBlZmZlY3RpdmVseSB0YWtlbiBjYXJl IHdpdGggZXhpc3RpbmcgbWVjaGFuaXNtcy4NCg0KQUJGQUIgd2FzIG5vdCBhYm91dCBTU08sIGJ1 dCBhYm91dCB1c2luZyB1c2VyIGlkZW50aXRpZXMgdG8gYWxsb3cgdGhlaXIgYWNjZXNzIHRvIG5l dHdvcmsgc2VydmljZXMgd2hpbGUgcHJvdGVjdGluZyB1c2VyIHByaXZhY3kuIEFuZCBhbW9uZyB0 aG9zZSBzZXJ2aWNlcyB5b3UgY291bGQgY29uc2lkZXIgYW55IGtpbmQgb2YgYXBwbGljYXRpb24g b3IgY29ubmVjdGl2aXR5IHNlcnZpY2XigKYNCg0KW1VtYTFdOiBUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBjb3Jy ZWN0aW9uLiAgWWVzLCB3aGF0IGlzIG5lZWRlZCBmb3IgSURFQVMgaXMgdG8gYWNjZXNzIEFVVEgg dG8gR1JJRFMgYnkgZW50aXR5IGFuZCBhbHNvIHNpbXBsZSBwb2xpY3kgIGF0IElkZW50aXR5IChy ZWZlcnJpbmcgSWRlbnRpdHkgdGhyb3VnaCBJZGVudGlmaWVyIGluIHRoZSBwYWNrZXQgcmVnYXJk bGVzcyBvZiB3aGljaCBJZGVudGlmaWVyIG9mIHRoZSBlbnRpdHkgaXMgdXNlZCkuIA0KICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgU3VyZSwgd2Ugb3VnaHQgdG8gcmUtdXNlIGFueSBleGlzdGluZyBhbmQgd2Vs bCBkZWZpbmVkIG1lY2hhbmlzbXMgZm9yIHRoaXMgcHVycG9zZS4gDQo= From nobody Wed Aug 9 18:31:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FBD1324F9 for ; 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Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:31:41 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail-pf0-f181.google.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.263.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09909F6E9 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:31:26 +0800 (CST) X-RL-SENDER: langao@cdi.cn X-FST-TO: ideas@ietf.org X-SENDER-IP: 209.85.192.181 X-LOGIN-NAME: langao@cdi.cn X-UNIQUE-TAG: <917750cdeedcf0cc4a3331456eeb5b9e> X-ATTACHMENT-NUM: 0 X-SENDER: langao@cdi.cn X-DNS-TYPE: 0 Received: from mail-pf0-f181.google.com (unknown [209.85.192.181]) by smtp.263.net (Postfix) whith ESMTP id 113876RQFKY; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:31:27 +0800 (CST) Received: by mail-pf0-f181.google.com with SMTP id o86so34748651pfj.1 for ; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:31:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5iktfCo1wifAPZzM9MfXrMPZbGt/fLM8BiYeXbU0+fYNbR6cEik x/HNqTUYoEkvEj57ihWZg1I4c27veA== X-Received: by 10.84.231.131 with SMTP id g3mr11031771plk.283.1502328683373; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:31:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.160.76 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 18:31:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A265@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A234@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <16A0829F-78E9-4E8C-B719-B25431603939@telefonica.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A265@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Lan Gao Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:31:22 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045fdf9a822a5f05565c27f5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 01:31:50 -0000 --f403045fdf9a822a5f05565c27f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services Framework. Regards, Lan Gao On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Uma Chunduri wrote: > Hi Diego, > > In-line [Uma1]: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 3:58 PM > To: Uma Chunduri ; Tom Herbert < > tom@herbertland.com>; Padma Pillay-Esnault > Cc: ideas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > Hi Uma, > > On 10/8/2017, 24:30 , "Uma Chunduri" wrote: > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier > split and new > > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. > These new > > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through > obscurity > > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, > ensuring that > > information about actual endpoints and their location is > revealed only on a > > need-to-know basis. > > > Padma, > > I don't think this goes far enough in terms of protections for > users > against the potential abuse of something that might be able to > individually and persistently identify them on the Internet. Firs= t, > it's not clear what network layer identity means in this context.= I > hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of identifiers as opposed = to > the identity of individual users or devices. In any case maybe a > definition of identity might be in order here. Secondly, I think = it > should be stated up front that identity cannot in any way be used > to > identify individual users, it cannot be used to create a global > database of Internet users, in no way can it be used by networks = or > governments to track or block individuals, nor can it ever be > required > for communications. That implies network layer identities cannot > contain PII (personally identifiable information) and cannot be > permanently assigned to users or devices (in the same spirit that > Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs because of privacy > concerns). > > Thanks, > Tom > > When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to hav= e a look > at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within th= e > ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) > > [Uma]: Though this is not about SSOs or application stuff, thanks fo= r > the pointer. > I always believed EAP has a role to play for IDy auth > procedures and lot of concerns brought out here (especially related to > Identity-privacy) are effectively taken care with existing mechanisms. > > ABFAB was not about SSO, but about using user identities to allow their > access to network services while protecting user privacy. And among those > services you could consider any kind of application or connectivity servi= ce=E2=80=A6 > > [Uma1]: Thanks for the correction. Yes, what is needed for IDEAS is to > access AUTH to GRIDS by entity and also simple policy at Identity > (referring Identity through Identifier in the packet regardless of which > Identifier of the entity is used). > Sure, we ought to re-use any existing and well defined > mechanisms for this purpose. > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > --f403045fdf9a822a5f05565c27f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a state= ment referencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as= the current document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Ide= ntity Services Framework.=C2=A0

Regards,

Lan Gao

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Uma Chunduri <u= ma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi Diego,

In-line [Uma1]:

-----Original Message-----
From: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 3:58 PM
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chundur= i@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

Hi Uma,

On 10/8/2017, 24:30 , "Uma Chunduri" <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - in addition, introduce the concept of id= entity-identifier split and new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically = change identifiers. These new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > functionalities may, for example, facilita= te anonymity through obscurity
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > while preventing security issues that migh= t result from abuse, ensuring that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > information about actual endpoints and the= ir location is revealed only on a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > need-to-know basis.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Padma,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't think this goes far enough in terms= of protections for users
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 against the potential abuse of something that m= ight be able to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 individually and persistently identify them on = the Internet. First,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it's not clear what network layer identity = means in this context. I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of ident= ifiers as opposed to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the identity of individual users or devices. In= any case maybe a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition of identity might be in order here. = Secondly, I think it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be stated up front that identity cannot = in any way be used to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 identify individual users, it cannot be used to= create a global
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 database of Internet users, in no way can it be= used by networks or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 governments to track or block individuals, nor = can it ever be required
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for communications. That implies network layer = identities cannot
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 contain PII (personally identifiable informatio= n) and cannot be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 permanently assigned to users or devices (in th= e same spirit that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs becau= se of privacy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 concerns).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tom

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommen= d to have a look at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust establ= ished within the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abf= ab/)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Uma]: Though=C2=A0 this is not about SSOs or application stu= ff, thanks for the pointer.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I alw= ays believed EAP has a role to play for IDy auth procedures and lot of conc= erns brought out here (especially related to Identity-privacy) are effectiv= ely taken care with existing mechanisms.

ABFAB was not about SSO, but about using user identities to allow their acc= ess to network services while protecting user privacy. And among those serv= ices you could consider any kind of application or connectivity service=E2= =80=A6

[Uma1]: Thanks for the correction.=C2=A0 Yes, what is needed fo= r IDEAS is to access AUTH to GRIDS by entity and also simple policy=C2=A0 a= t Identity (referring Identity through Identifier in the packet regardless = of which Identifier of the entity is used).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sure, we oug= ht to re-use any existing and well defined mechanisms for this purpose.
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--f403045fdf9a822a5f05565c27f5-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 10:18:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5558713234E for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id acx2SW6EhEW6 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x233.google.com (mail-qt0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 648F51321C8 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x233.google.com with SMTP id a18so8302033qta.0 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Q0imWXAug11TwIZTBBxO39x3CLdZ5EqbCT2vipv5Spw=; b=Y1IXYmw9SgGjMLlOewu6spKaS6NL0e89eIv6P+3p2/kPbOt+tIN8AKGxsok+TeFs2T GaIfFS2v9trWJrK92fS+sGk6pXm7ooKp6XoGV4kUZqqRkMjB9MHVLIwsW+U3jSl20IO3 9s9qyjWPu9Mj3sZE5dv9M5k63s1sWyYrKgvndSytsaOLg8bvvbj4+FLf9UjsRVrKGyyv daU8vYvqtCKappAgp4r4Mhc4WR17c1aYiIIfaYQ5ZDAdIjsxZZSx+pscdm0nCbn6J7Yw QvvuBuSZ4HrxNRsXu3AYXDi5up/D70bO/GlHPHTzMsxEjM8QU6GD2criEPicV/O8uCTM 66iw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q0imWXAug11TwIZTBBxO39x3CLdZ5EqbCT2vipv5Spw=; b=jqnbbjdCnZv1+OjQarPALlg/OYA3ZCrBCUBdxR9H57ypJ+119WegeFxP0rxUWDHcGq PoZmNLa80N70FoegOnMbAS6DvEztdpVC3vFZHu+FwX4lV6xFlhguDwFM1ZezeaJ2HAcR Ps/ECOXw62TvYkejdKTrh6H3ZEXwZEsCWHPcVfQGL20IlEqD0r2Wfn+JQfRePqC7Gilx fHEaLctzaYQvh8mpZxb6QUgZXUsAct/YLTxYcYujI68Vqonp5aUzKWX+0K9gJB5yAwzm SxI2sU9E7+Il7xTaoCR87a+ccnk6CoDjdrFsobtW8+EGnoB1lIueLQZZN1e88ZKxdmQY +cRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hQyc9yBTPfb6HWgfwjP8AR3sYgzssI+wRPZi3X4ayCmahUr0xR f6QxGjg2eo+KGKMXPlZtgtAUdkCErQ== X-Received: by 10.200.40.197 with SMTP id j5mr16597023qtj.100.1502385484075; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <83622B5F-A2D0-40A4-BD75-BC6222754059@telefonica.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A234@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <16A0829F-78E9-4E8C-B719-B25431603939@telefonica.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685401A3A265@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:18:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lan Gao Cc: "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114069a418164a0556696182" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:18:09 -0000 --001a114069a418164a0556696182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Lan Gao Thanks for your review. Will take this input. Thanks Padma On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Lan Gao wrote: > I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the > chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current docume= nt > only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services > Framework. > > Regards, > > Lan Gao > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Uma Chunduri > wrote: > >> Hi Diego, >> >> In-line [Uma1]: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 3:58 PM >> To: Uma Chunduri ; Tom Herbert < >> tom@herbertland.com>; Padma Pillay-Esnault >> Cc: ideas@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version >> >> Hi Uma, >> >> On 10/8/2017, 24:30 , "Uma Chunduri" wrote: >> >> > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier >> split and new >> > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. >> These new >> > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through >> obscurity >> > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, >> ensuring that >> > information about actual endpoints and their location is >> revealed only on a >> > need-to-know basis. >> > >> Padma, >> >> I don't think this goes far enough in terms of protections for >> users >> against the potential abuse of something that might be able to >> individually and persistently identify them on the Internet. >> First, >> it's not clear what network layer identity means in this context= . >> I >> hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of identifiers as opposed >> to >> the identity of individual users or devices. In any case maybe a >> definition of identity might be in order here. Secondly, I think >> it >> should be stated up front that identity cannot in any way be use= d >> to >> identify individual users, it cannot be used to create a global >> database of Internet users, in no way can it be used by networks >> or >> governments to track or block individuals, nor can it ever be >> required >> for communications. That implies network layer identities cannot >> contain PII (personally identifiable information) and cannot be >> permanently assigned to users or devices (in the same spirit tha= t >> Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs because of privacy >> concerns). >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to ha= ve a look >> at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within t= he >> ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) >> >> [Uma]: Though this is not about SSOs or application stuff, thanks >> for the pointer. >> I always believed EAP has a role to play for IDy aut= h >> procedures and lot of concerns brought out here (especially related to >> Identity-privacy) are effectively taken care with existing mechanisms. >> >> ABFAB was not about SSO, but about using user identities to allow their >> access to network services while protecting user privacy. And among thos= e >> services you could consider any kind of application or connectivity serv= ice=E2=80=A6 >> >> [Uma1]: Thanks for the correction. Yes, what is needed for IDEAS is to >> access AUTH to GRIDS by entity and also simple policy at Identity >> (referring Identity through Identifier in the packet regardless of which >> Identifier of the entity is used). >> Sure, we ought to re-use any existing and well defined >> mechanisms for this purpose. >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a114069a418164a0556696182 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Lan Gao

Thanks for your review. Wi= ll take this input.

Thanks
Padma



On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Lan Gao <langa= o@cdi.cn> wrote:
I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement ref= erencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the cur= rent document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Se= rvices Framework.=C2=A0

Regards,

Lan Gao

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Uma Chund= uri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi Diego,

In-line [Uma1]:

-----Original Message-----
From: Diego R. Lopez [mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 3:58 PM
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>; Padma Pi= llay-Esnault <= padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

Hi Uma,

On 10/8/2017, 24:30 , "Uma Chunduri" <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> wrote:=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - in addition, introduce the concept of id= entity-identifier split and new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically = change identifiers. These new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > functionalities may, for example, facilita= te anonymity through obscurity
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > while preventing security issues that migh= t result from abuse, ensuring that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > information about actual endpoints and the= ir location is revealed only on a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > need-to-know basis.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Padma,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't think this goes far enough in terms= of protections for users
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 against the potential abuse of something that m= ight be able to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 individually and persistently identify them on = the Internet. First,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it's not clear what network layer identity = means in this context. I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hope it refers to an ad hoc collection of ident= ifiers as opposed to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the identity of individual users or devices. In= any case maybe a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition of identity might be in order here. = Secondly, I think it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be stated up front that identity cannot = in any way be used to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 identify individual users, it cannot be used to= create a global
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 database of Internet users, in no way can it be= used by networks or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 governments to track or block individuals, nor = can it ever be required
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for communications. That implies network layer = identities cannot
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 contain PII (personally identifiable informatio= n) and cannot be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 permanently assigned to users or devices (in th= e same spirit that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet addresses were removed from IIDs becau= se of privacy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 concerns).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tom

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommen= d to have a look at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust establ= ished within the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abf= ab/)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Uma]: Though=C2=A0 this is not about SSOs or application stu= ff, thanks for the pointer.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I alw= ays believed EAP has a role to play for IDy auth procedures and lot of conc= erns brought out here (especially related to Identity-privacy) are effectiv= ely taken care with existing mechanisms.

ABFAB was not about SSO, but about using user identities to allow their acc= ess to network services while protecting user privacy. And among those serv= ices you could consider any kind of application or connectivity service=E2= =80=A6

[Uma1]: Thanks for the correction.=C2=A0 Yes, what is needed fo= r IDEAS is to access AUTH to GRIDS by entity and also simple policy=C2=A0 a= t Identity (referring Identity through Identifier in the packet regardless = of which Identifier of the entity is used).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sure, we oug= ht to re-use any existing and well defined mechanisms for this purpose.
__________________________________= _____________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a114069a418164a0556696182-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 13:24:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB5A128A32 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I-Q_0dIUDjuq for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5566132448 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BA1622B0; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:24:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id kyCwtI+6rLo0; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:24:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87CA7622AE; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:24:27 -0400 (EDT) To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org References: From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <49cf40d7-9c32-5b22-2955-18ea85405edc@htt-consult.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:24:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8E8C877A632FB97BC923EC37" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:24:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8E8C877A632FB97BC923EC37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit About time I weighed in on this. Basically I am comfortable with the charter content. It has to be a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it. Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some goals tacked to the wall. If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say). But to put my fork in it: "At the same time" ?? what time? The 1st para really does not define a time. Just drop it and start with "End users ..." "and operators demand" Don't make them competitative requirements. They just are. "Identity-enabled networks aim to enable' They do? Just drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block. Bob On 08/07/2017 01:20 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the > list and off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address > some of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your > addition. > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the > framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been > reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure > first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still > an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible > enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the > inter-grids aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS” > > Proposed Charter > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator > separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and > multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator > separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to > discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet > delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by > identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. > However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are > needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional > discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet > delivery. > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their > networking information and protection from outside threats, while > operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled > networks aim to enable networking applications and services that > provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their > networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided > by today’s networks. > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator > mapping system that provides a common solution for all > identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization. > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and > new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. > These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity > through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result > from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their > location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis. > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and > consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and > infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as > identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no > way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined > policy or finer grain rules. > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of > temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information > of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based > protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We > refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic > Identity Services (GRIDS). > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on > changes needed for interactions between the framework and > identifier-enabled protocols. > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > associated identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. > ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding > traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. > Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when > appropriate. > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to > support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --------------8E8C877A632FB97BC923EC37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit About time I weighed in on this.

Basically I am comfortable with the charter content.  It has to be a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it.  Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some goals tacked to the wall.

If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say).  But to put my fork in it:

"At the same time"  ?? what time?  The 1st para really does not define a time.  Just drop it and start with "End users ..."

"and operators demand"  Don't make them competitative requirements.  They just are.

"Identity-enabled networks aim to enable'  They do?  Just drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement.

For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block.

Bob

On 08/07/2017 01:20 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote:
Dear IDEAS,

Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list.

This new version should address comments from:
-  Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity.
- Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition. 
- Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version.
-Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functionalities.
- Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. 
- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed.

Please find the new version below:

IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS”

  

Proposed Charter

                 

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. 

 

At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today’s networks.  

 

To this end, the working group shall:

- define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization.

 

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

 

Some examples of the problem space are:

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

 

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules.

 

- Privacy:  The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.  The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

 

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

 

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

 

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework:

                 

- Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

 

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

                 

WG deliverables include the definition:

Generic Identity Services Framework

 

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

 

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG



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--------------8E8C877A632FB97BC923EC37-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 21:11:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C12132021 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PxJGtH3_glDt for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x244.google.com (mail-pf0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDE78131D1D for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x244.google.com with SMTP id t86so2431939pfe.1 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uInAXt7/T36r18CQk+G6dfMVfuAm194LWFPPvv9CiEo=; b=KM+2WzasYQOPXLWQ2nsCS2kZ9fa/zSI2yoxzp7mqvhO6SvflATryTErPW1UeyCUtt7 NHvCh1AKPaxAI1ThbLoCQXwlwy40EF6DUVkUmHUoG9cx3VVtgL4PMCvn7rC8TWvsQQtE YJT5bbXQj6P5zjsxtRTZhH5gtl9NagLTG0Iv0aeSfwqY4ug6RJl4/Xs8LfodCYrmgUoj ihCYR7h0we6Z1VKex6CS6BCgUvSla8ylvyoQa2nF/le14Vf8RDl7SNEJ/9T/mx+vIsMj VrMOzBU0UBfQhCAo1AFM0zy0MCIvVYA24NU1BlmBgg0SFpACiGuSRh6R7NzxLkgkrsYP 67mA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uInAXt7/T36r18CQk+G6dfMVfuAm194LWFPPvv9CiEo=; b=LHcgf2jq60sJ+Ur/5UP/7x3+53BAt9F87GGTOk+bCg2a0oHbJkg0BSd7Afu+gpM8Gy AGFeoBlesNob6gV/y8wuGJposZKrWsSThj+7T8wIJC577Gy9PLqi0ET+hN3uIAQ/W8Gx ka3zod8DLa4IazWQ7gsWvzQr7H6DLTsG0xPqgTmwIL3AH6Mav+y/XNQ3x73gjeEuEiYr qEaUDscScUPTLD+vv/3q5P3jt4DyvmhYCqX4FV65MIQAG6xrnCw82Qc3/l4+w0H0xhz/ UWWaFggWStQjZDR8pYwCYI2JUiBPl30V2CyArfXPaVgRFPmhgAho5qPGibqb8sWL3CmU rVVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gmED5woHARBLDyMoCIBC/knTV+mxMPOvXSTqaLybclgPbrRfDp uOHkFv1Ck3EwXw== X-Received: by 10.98.76.201 with SMTP id e70mr15046298pfj.262.1502424700483; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.18.198] ([64.65.188.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g79sm13543655pfd.163.2017.08.10.21.11.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:11:38 -0700 Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5CDA80D6-C463-4E5E-891D-2BE29251A705@gmail.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> To: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 04:11:42 -0000 > Please send your comments and feedback on the list. Enclosed are my brief comments. Sorry for the delay but I=E2=80=99m on = vacation. > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their = networking information and protection from outside threats, while = operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled = networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide = a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking = data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99= s networks. =20 I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their identity = address, location address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. > To this end, the working group shall: >=20 > - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and = related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator = protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping = combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that = map virtual to physical addresses I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80=9D= appears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate = existing locator/ID split protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefine and = deploy a mapping system=E2=80=9D. And the existing locator/ID split protocols have their respective = control-planes optimized for the tradeoffs they set out to design. = Having something that works for all of them, to attempt interoperation, = not only doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, but will make them run = inefficiently and probably make them not useful. > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the = modular framework: >=20 > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location = split protocols This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP = host solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP = host has an IPv4 EID?=20 This will cause a misinterpretation of the usefulness of locator/id = split. I believe this should not be in the charter. > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, = multihoming, ...) >=20 > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their = associated identifiers. >=20 > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, = update of information for identifiers..)=20 >=20 > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. = ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic = for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) >=20 > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. = type) >=20 > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. The above items are all useful and need to be defined and more = importantly deployed, so we can experiment with the solutions that meet = the requirements of this working group. > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure = interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. = Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when = appropriate. I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make sure = their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. = But not to make them interoperate. Dino From nobody Fri Aug 11 08:57:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDB31320B5 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:57:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=winlab-rutgers-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5oDCgAQgkZ-b for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 282A3129D9D for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id o86so17467885pfj.1 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=winlab-rutgers-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MAHX4Z8DOU/xSiWHWUS9gJHWdEocL/oi7hsCEyZ8ZXo=; b=yH7umnIsGmiZXNscjh4cnWL2SP5UAb7xUPwIv+TMClZKRAe2Tmy4hj+WOzW5PLIGqI L2K+F8VbP2dLpxSeg7JyWzqeCTA7E8xJohqa5ESyfaihKcs0phihOAcU9H+p9x2MFg24 vf0lYBjm8y3PSZOGOOqo5cs6Xa0NjIyUsaBjkEShHQdprTdbTDSsyImJHfmfJqSPtn0J AFnIvABxTXXxYS8uI9GbxKGTxi0b3YGlVGZ9KM0nNnA0uxdYe1gcFYxT0TECQOX2BggU lOH6kqEnXmC2FnPLkm8zsIg9R3JgubXbwtNA3qb6b/tL7JJrp6zRhB1n0xRa3sxOJeFn LSsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MAHX4Z8DOU/xSiWHWUS9gJHWdEocL/oi7hsCEyZ8ZXo=; b=etP/GPSooecVmKp6v0gx4+KWKWRPkCtm7Gvr0vCYsSFsYpHWV80GDkY55SZn4u4kJY C988+OHlGaAsljHTYNoVv6udEWfaVuOzeQQrDpJ5ZcRjdl//P480fCpDOVsR234wY08x UDEfaFaf1z/uOIbE3oh9gHsme2CGtPQOZXewpAoAGnNdmx6/vIqoxHAgV95J8aeku5MZ sjRoLNdl6Ahfi3pX6e8QFkOFaMGIu0tsYoVgLm1rBayk8tdPpEx2rrzTgvvJad1MziJo TjA65K1bAPEMcsmBXCTMabCdsr1iw5/pPLdhNqvZfM/tUGeJD552FgWIrfXYMky1mcYp FPTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5j/xwPeK+ROJxJ2WOdZV37G0JM7uh+J91mmg/Ex037xLOs0/NE6 SMMu6BQnIPb9VEb/8bMrRxDi3fzBBAhfqd4= X-Received: by 10.99.126.86 with SMTP id o22mr15593001pgn.385.1502467051956; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:57:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.138.13 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:57:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Shreyasee Mukherjee Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:57:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1b6344eb3f0205567c5e77" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:57:37 -0000 --94eb2c1b6344eb3f0205567c5e77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Padma, This version reads well. Professor Ray and we at WINLAB had a few minor comments. We agree with Alex's previous comment on including some notion that the mapping system should have the flexibility of mapping not just identifiers to locators but also allow mapping identifiers to other identifiers. This is a powerful tool and we have looked into how such recursive mapping of identifiers allows newer network services to be enabled such as context-aware multicast. This can also be extended to support privacy concerns wherein an identifier could map into a whitelist or blacklist of identifiers for lookup queries. In that regard, our comments to the charter proposal are provided inline. Thank you, Shreyasee > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Alexander Clemm > To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > > Cc: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 21:49:29 +0000 > Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > This version sounds fine to me. > > > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2017 9:36 PM > *To:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > *Cc:* Alexander Clemm ; Tom Herbert < > tom@herbertland.com>; ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > Hello All > > > > Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17. > > > > Please send your comments and feedback on the list. > > > > > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. Identifier-lo= cator > protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic > association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynam= ic > multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries. > > A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator > protocols as well as for network virtualization. However, additional > infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new > requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related > protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols > that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations a= s > needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to > physical addresses > > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. The common > mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring > that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed on= ly > on a need-to-know basis. > - In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier can be mapped to multiple identifiers , , =E2=80=A6. This is useful for incorporating hierarchies associated w= ith the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as well as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier to large numbers of network addresses. > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent > basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings > reduces operational and deployment complexity. The API should be > sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including > identifier to network address =C3=A0 , identifier to multiple > network addresses =C3=A0 , , =E2=80=A6, and identifi= er to one or > more identifiers =C3=A0 , , =E2=80=A6. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers > and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic an= d > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols > and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the comm= on > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t > protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. typ= e) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework =E2=80=93 should this be defined furt= her in > terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update > protocol, etc.? > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n > a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > wrote: > > Sure > > > > However, been wondering if it is best not to be so specific in the charte= r. > > Thoughts? > > > > Padma > > > > *From:* Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM > *To:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > OK. > > > > If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be > useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means= of > example, mappings between identifiers. > > > > Thanks > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm ; Tom Herbert < > tom@herbertland.com> > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > Alex > > > > My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for removing of identity concept= . > > He asked to make the section on common infrastructure clearer with this > sentence. > > > > I agree with you that the mappings should not be restricted to 1->n > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM > *To:* Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > I am not sure we should restrict ourselves to mapping between identifiers > and locators. > > > > I would at a minimum want to include mappings between identifiers, and > between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings of > identifiers. > > > > If we take out the identity concept, we should also rename the WG. > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Padma Pillay-Esnault > *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM > *To:* Tom Herbert > *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version > > > > Hi Tom > > > > > > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mappi= ng > > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mappi= ng > > protocols and network virtualization. > > > > Padma, > > I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common > mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about > something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control > plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for > identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well > as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical > addresses" > > > > Fine with me. > > > > Let's poll the list for consensus on this. > > > > Thanks > > Padma > > > > Tom > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --94eb2c1b6344eb3f0205567c5e77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Padma,=C2=A0

This version re= ads well. Professor Ray and we at WINLAB had a few minor comments. We agree= with Alex's=C2=A0previous comment on including some notion that the ma= pping system should have the flexibility of mapping not just identifiers to= locators but also allow mapping identifiers to other identifiers. This is = a powerful tool and we=C2=A0have looked into how such recursive mapping of = identifiers allows newer network services to be enabled such as context-awa= re multicast. This can also be extended to support privacy concerns wherein= an identifier could map into a whitelist or blacklist of identifiers for l= ookup queries. In that regard, our comments to the charter proposal are pro= vided inline.

Thank you,
Shreyasee

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2= =A0Alexander Clemm <alexan= der.clemm@huawei.com>
To:=C2=A0Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>, Padmadevi Pi= llay Esnault <padma@huawei.com&g= t;
Cc:=C2=A0Tom Herbert <tom@h= erbertland.com>, "ideas@ietf.= org" <ideas@ietf.org><= br>Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Wed, 9 Aug 2017 21:49:29 +0000
Subject:=C2= =A0Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version

This version sounds fine to me.

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 9:36 PM
To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault <padma@huawei.com>
Cc: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>; ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Hello All

=C2=A0

Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17.=

=C2=A0

Please send your comments and feedback on the list.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier= -Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and mul= ti-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover = the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2= =A0Ide= ntifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic associa= tion of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, = cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0

A common infrastructure and protocol could be = used by identifier/locator protocols as well as for= network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed = to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery s= ervice and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

At the same time, end users require greater privacy = for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while= operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and servic= es that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over the= ir networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by= today=E2=80=99s networks. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:<= /p>

- define and develop a common mapping system, contro= l plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier= /locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtu= alization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

=C2=A0

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-ide= ntifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change iden= tifiers. The common mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These new functionalities may, for example, facili= tate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that migh= t result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and t= heir location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.
_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--94eb2c1b6344eb3f0205567c5e77-- From nobody Sun Aug 13 20:14:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9BB1204DA for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 20:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gwPDmouCTxQ4 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 20:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out20-87.mail.aliyun.com (out20-87.mail.aliyun.com [115.124.20.87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E811201F8 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 20:14:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Alimail-AntiSpam: AC=CONTINUE; BC=0.9244396|0.5194991; BR=01201311R251ec; FP=0|0|0|0|0|-1|-1|-1; HT=e02c03295; MF=madi@rpstir.net; NM=1; PH=DS; RN=2; RT=2; SR=0; TI=SMTPD_---.8fRpIOM_1502680470; Received: from 192.168.90.82(mailfrom:madi@rpstir.net ip:1.119.141.130) by smtp.aliyun-inc.com(10.147.40.233); Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:14:30 +0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Di Ma In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:14:34 +0800 Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 03:14:44 -0000 Dear Padma, I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people = fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via = identity/identifier separation.=20 Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet. Threat = model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of = future IDEAS security mechanisms.=20 I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables. Di Ma RPSTIR https://bgpsecurity.net > =D4=DA 2017=C4=EA8=D4=C27=C8=D5=A3=AC13:20=A3=ACPadma Pillay-Esnault = =D0=B4=B5=C0=A3=BA >=20 > Dear IDEAS, >=20 > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the = list and off the list. >=20 > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address = some of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your = addition.=20 > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this = version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the = framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered = to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and = then the new identity concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still = an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible = enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework.=20 > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the = inter-grids aspect if needed. >=20 > Please find the new version below: >=20 > IDEAS: =A1=B0IDentity EnAbled networkS=A1=B1 >=20 > =20 > Proposed Charter >=20 > =20 > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator = separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and = multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator = separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to = discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet = delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by = identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, = additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to = address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery = service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=20 >=20 > =20 > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their = networking information and protection from outside threats, while = operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled = networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide = a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking = data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=A1=AFs= networks. =20 >=20 > =20 > To this end, the working group shall: >=20 > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator = mapping system that provides a common solution for all = identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization. >=20 > =20 > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and = new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These = new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through = obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, = ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is = revealed only on a need-to-know basis. >=20 > =20 > Some examples of the problem space are: >=20 > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common = infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent = basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure = that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings = reduces operational and deployment complexity. >=20 > =20 > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal = information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or = finer grain rules. >=20 > =20 > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be = desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as = well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without = restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. = The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier = while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of = temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help = discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information = of end devices to eavesdroppers. >=20 > =20 > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to = develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based = protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer = to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic = Identity Services (GRIDS). >=20 > =20 > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on = changes needed for interactions between the framework and = identifier-enabled protocols. >=20 > =20 > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the = modular framework: >=20 > =20 > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location = split protocols >=20 > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, = multihoming, ...) >=20 > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their = associated identifiers. >=20 > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, = update of information for identifiers..) >=20 > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. = ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic = for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=A1=AD) >=20 > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) >=20 > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. >=20 > =20 > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure = interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. = Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when = appropriate. >=20 > =20 > WG deliverables include the definition: >=20 > Generic Identity Services Framework >=20 > =20 > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: >=20 > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be = maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to = support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: >=20 > - Problem statement >=20 > - Use cases >=20 > - Requirements >=20 > - Applications of the architecture for use cases >=20 > =20 > Milestones >=20 > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework >=20 > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework >=20 > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the = IESG >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Mon Aug 14 11:51:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A4B1323C0 for ; 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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:51:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:51:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49cf40d7-9c32-5b22-2955-18ea85405edc@htt-consult.com> References: <49cf40d7-9c32-5b22-2955-18ea85405edc@htt-consult.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:51:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz , Alexander Clemm Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11455506ba711f0556bb275d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 18:51:53 -0000 --001a11455506ba711f0556bb275d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bob On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > About time I weighed in on this. > > Basically I am comfortable with the charter content. It has to be a > amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with > it. Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some > goals tacked to the wall. > > Agree > If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general inf= o > which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say). But to pu= t > my fork in it: > > "At the same time" ?? what time? The 1st para really does not define a > time. Just drop it and start with "End users ..." > > "and operators demand" Don't make them competitative requirements. They > just are. > > I will let Alex respond to these comments as he proposed the above sentence. > "Identity-enabled networks aim to enable' They do? Just drop the "aim > to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. > Ok will change this > > For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block. > Good. Thanks for your review and input. Padma > > Bob > > > On 08/07/2017 01:20 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list > and off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address > some of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s > modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic > identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity > concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o > accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids > aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common > infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols > as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and > new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go we= ll > beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of > identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping > protocols and network virtualization. > > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring > that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed on= ly > on a need-to-know basis. > > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent > basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings > reduces operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers > and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic an= d > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols > and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the comm= on > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t > protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n > a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing listIdeas@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ide= as > > > --001a11455506ba711f0556bb275d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Bob=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Robert Moskow= itz <rgm-ietf@htt-consult.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
About time I weighed in on this.

Basically I am comfortable with the charter content.=C2=A0 It has to be= a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it.=C2=A0 Really that proof will be in the output; we have to star= t with some goals tacked to the wall.

Agree
=C2=A0
If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say).=C2=A0 But to put my fork in it:

"At the same time"=C2=A0 ?? what time?=C2=A0 The 1st para rea= lly does not define a time.=C2=A0 Just drop it and start with "End users ...&qu= ot;

"and operators demand"=C2=A0 Don't make them competitativ= e requirements.=C2=A0 They just are.

I will let Alex respond to these comments a= s he proposed the above sentence.
=C2=A0
"Identity-enabled networks aim to enable'=C2=A0 They do?=C2=A0= Just drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement.<= br>
Ok will change this =C2=A0

For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block.
<= /blockquote>

Good.

Thanks for y= our review and input.

Padma=C2=A0

Bob

On 08/07/2017 01:20 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote:
Dear IDEAS,

Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list.

This new version should address comments from:
- =C2=A0Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity.
- Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition.=C2=A0
- Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version.
-Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functionalities.
- Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework.=C2=A0
- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed.

Please find the new version below:

IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS= =E2=80=9D

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= /p>

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s netw= orks. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:

- define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization.

=C2=A0

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

=C2=A0

Some examples of the problem space are:

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules.

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= /p>

- Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= /p>

WG deliverables include the definition:

Generic Identity Services Framework =

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

=C2=A0

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG



_________________________________________=
______
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a11455506ba711f0556bb275d-- From nobody Mon Aug 14 11:56:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22671323D7 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JFA89zPTN1t for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22e.google.com (mail-qt0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AADC132399 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a18so56883283qta.0 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vwcDMR5ctDLNOMZR9cI2LNZO74JmBArBwgoN1nxiY5c=; b=WxIcWODUc3lJsPNjTLYMrMQk9A1+8Gvjs17XJMWl4mmZr2CRZKtlmD6cO2J1czrBA2 Eqd5EIRKaCC+6d1L1fsr0BVNg9UZgYdfc0dAPKta8JthxkG//b1VRIKt7e9s3MPaRU20 +RcboBQGsKXQZ/WOCxJ0vSGKEAEWHb7J5zjn6ROo0iHM9SXeStrAemr9ezrvEMT6o1ko YYt9SMqt1DlAjNSu3El2MhZXGttGD9ngg0g+haRO/tSFKygQAv5rXoK1V2VugldpypF8 fpT7GaWEQ1ADCMznHpzjWUUbrsRSuGxP6js54gEmi3pxVJyiIYy4L9d3Zfp8mWvj3ECL juYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vwcDMR5ctDLNOMZR9cI2LNZO74JmBArBwgoN1nxiY5c=; b=YwW6wFF+cMywGXJePjM4JDHP5qmtyLQCjqGjrbMUhr93nj4gEPChhbv2t7fus7Yes2 N8valAd79o9LMo6KvWALWaWshpVanZdNFBmTCZhCQfWhGbldAv4SaiWuMdbRYJ7X7u2n gk44o644RgDpdsxJxkBI/lW/U5MvXP9cvZrVvuteC2TuTyVI1uyoW/8NakADLFti6Ls5 4+GSeTUKgkbgePWkwL43NCEzDvvvyUfHG+jTY1QAI6rqJkSQgmtCpKlDfebTZQaE/Jia OllnxdqwBjYJwDxqhNMEPy6vG5XWDv37FYYi+mgOYUNbz4rpkl5y24VfBU3F6379Ob4f clrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gzoywyWEL8hrzym4FxyiLVQNUNshikILF95eahAX0hhCNrkd04 L48i1iO0gJ5dN1AiKoJMtInNDa2G6Q== X-Received: by 10.200.12.11 with SMTP id k11mr36098107qti.286.1502737012655; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5CDA80D6-C463-4E5E-891D-2BE29251A705@gmail.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <5CDA80D6-C463-4E5E-891D-2BE29251A705@gmail.com> From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:56:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dino Farinacci Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e0822fc0cd489120556bb39b7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 18:56:56 -0000 --089e0822fc0cd489120556bb39b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 9:11 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote= : > > Please send your comments and feedback on the list. > > Enclosed are my brief comments. Sorry for the delay but I=E2=80=99m on va= cation. > > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networkin= g > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their identity = address, location > address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. > OK I will massage this paragraph and also taking into account the comment from Bob regarding the first sentence. > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > > > - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and relate= d > protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols > that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations a= s > needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to > physical addresses > > I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80= =9D appears throughout. > The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate existing locator/ID > split protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefine and deploy a mapping syste= m=E2=80=9D. You are right. We are not trying to interoperate existing protocols but the common is from the infrastructure perspective. Noted your comment will go over this. > > And the existing locator/ID split protocols have their respective > control-planes optimized for the tradeoffs they set out to design. Having > something that works for all of them, to attempt interoperation, not only > doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, but will make them run inefficiently and prob= ably make > them not useful. > > See my above comment. > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols > > This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP hos= t solves > nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host has an IPv= 4 > EID? > > ok will explain this better, the interworking is protocol and infra not between protocols Will need to make this clearer int he text > This will cause a misinterpretation of the usefulness of locator/id split= . > I believe this should not be in the charter. > > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > associated identifiers. > > > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability > to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. > type) > > > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > The above items are all useful and need to be defined and more importantl= y > deployed, so we can experiment with the solutions that meet the > requirements of this working group. > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make sure > their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. Bu= t > not to make them interoperate. > > Sure we are in agreement will reword for clarity Thanks for your review and feedback Padma > Dino > > --089e0822fc0cd489120556bb39b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 9:11 PM, Dino Farinacci <<= a href=3D"mailto:farinacci@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">farinacci@gmail.com= > wrote:
&= gt; Please send your comments and feedback on the list.

Enclosed are my brief comments. Sorry for the delay but I=E2=80=99m = on vacation.

> At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networki= ng information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand = greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable net= working applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and= control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inh= erent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks.

I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their iden= tity address, location address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D.

OK I will massage this paragraph and als= o taking into account the comment from Bob regarding the first sentence.
=C2=A0

> To this end, the working group shall:
>
> - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and relat= ed protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols= that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as= needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to ph= ysical addresses

I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon= =E2=80=9D appears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to in= teroperate existing locator/ID split protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefi= ne and deploy a mapping system=E2=80=9D.

Yo= u are right. We are not trying to interoperate existing protocols but the c= ommon is from the infrastructure perspective. Noted your comment will go ov= er this.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> And the existing locator/ID split protocols have their respective control-p= lanes optimized for the tradeoffs they set out to design. Having something = that works for all of them, to attempt interoperation, not only doesn=E2=80= =99t make sense, but will make them run inefficiently and probably make the= m not useful.


See my above c= omment.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the= modular framework:
>
> - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location s= plit protocols

This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LIS= P host solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP hos= t has an IPv4 EID?

ok will explain this better, the interworking is prot= ocol and infra not between protocols
Will need to make this clear= er int he text
=C2=A0
This will cause a misinterpretation of the usefulness of locator/id split. = I believe this should not be in the charter.

> - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, = multihoming, ...)
>
> - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associ= ated identifiers.
>
> - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework,= update of information for identifiers..)
>
> - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. abilit= y to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for part= icular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)
>
> - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. = type)
>
> - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

The above items are all useful and need to be defined and more impor= tantly deployed, so we can experiment with the solutions that meet the requ= irements of this working group.

> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure inte= roperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore, it w= ill try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make s= ure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. = But not to make them interoperate.


Sure we are in agreement will reword for clarity

Thanks for your review and feedback

Padma=C2=A0
Dino


--089e0822fc0cd489120556bb39b7-- From nobody Mon Aug 14 11:59:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AE41323F9 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tKXE_GW6UGt9 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x243.google.com (mail-pg0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92459132399 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x243.google.com with SMTP id y192so11998239pgd.1 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vkOik4QBoDaQwJCBjCyN0c9vj5/S3TmakFrE5IAHK3c=; b=KBeXLc/x/r3YP0BkJOySEVLFG9SQ3uVreY5UpuYRgHtgbr7a8ceVLfF8IiV/MuhW1L 0x+3u93+7RzWJ0CdFJN87Jq0EBi5SPg1OH3dDWH+1RIw+HkOEIBGig0Vj6kPCSxjUKlt q2WeFUoPuT6SHDLJa91Yc0p/azxo5mGVezVVsmX429Eh+8rtiP9Une2aDYNCVwxfrs8p DwLlAiSaTsvS0skyHS0jPNVcfPBFUC7eMFLeN/Mbm7ZZffpj2JTjrfDHlhd55AhSQHDu R2bykwUcfjGnV/9mcegkvOICH/dkfpXot7CiaVSGB1+NE7n8BaRS5s6I+aHsD+GxCTrN He7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vkOik4QBoDaQwJCBjCyN0c9vj5/S3TmakFrE5IAHK3c=; b=ukDAh2Pl05Z23FPBJQCDgxnjrjrom1XZ5muk7KOfASer2c2X0EcsZrhuLmo2Chj+2l sbrp7HlvERvhP9F4asyCCo7dVSaHD/N34OEIbXy3NTPtPNyap/HGkymD53t5e0gjD0Ci PPG+9GBYJNMDpu7e20Zb+rFqmSRymUfNWFCmdPQKZVapd4TzB7iKyiYYwfALvv14kCfT 7XT200dy8sOcZDW9y+2guyADtdO/qYKFfrqee5gIu1Vsf4sp2n2npSxmOKMuo+GtrPlp 3GyhOTFhBNdVyfFQlI7Rl2k17hb+6jcndviGn3bL/QdjV38ApdY2JP71FwU2Fz3lwif9 KApQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5i5cIoQ92P2qapa2FOaGE6d3VVgMcFVHR++iJMtxIsm82RknHZv h7fv5LKohTI9Jw== X-Received: by 10.84.142.131 with SMTP id 3mr29113895plx.130.1502737172124; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.197.31.157] (173-11-119-245-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [173.11.119.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b7sm13680209pgr.11.2017.08.14.11.59.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:30 -0700 Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" , Alexander Clemm Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71A88EF7-E288-4931-967F-227DE273125A@gmail.com> References: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED16F@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0ED3A0@SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com> <5CDA80D6-C463-4E5E-891D-2BE29251A705@gmail.com> To: Padma Pillay-Esnault X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 18:59:41 -0000 Thanks Padma. As well as taking the lead on all this. Dino > On Aug 14, 2017, at 11:56 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 9:11 PM, Dino Farinacci = wrote: > > Please send your comments and feedback on the list. >=20 > Enclosed are my brief comments. Sorry for the delay but I=E2=80=99m on = vacation. >=20 > > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their = networking information and protection from outside threats, while = operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled = networks aim to enable networking applications and services that provide = a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their networking = data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99= s networks. >=20 > I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their = identity address, location address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D= . >=20 > OK I will massage this paragraph and also taking into account the = comment from Bob regarding the first sentence. > =20 >=20 > > To this end, the working group shall: > > > > - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and = related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator = protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping = combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that = map virtual to physical addresses >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80= =9D appears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to = interoperate existing locator/ID split protocols so I would say = =E2=80=9Cdefine and deploy a mapping system=E2=80=9D. >=20 > You are right. We are not trying to interoperate existing protocols = but the common is from the infrastructure perspective. Noted your = comment will go over this.=20 > =20 > And the existing locator/ID split protocols have their respective = control-planes optimized for the tradeoffs they set out to design. = Having something that works for all of them, to attempt interoperation, = not only doesn=E2=80=99t make sense, but will make them run = inefficiently and probably make them not useful. >=20 >=20 > See my above comment.=20 > =20 > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for = the modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location = split protocols >=20 > This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP = host solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP = host has an IPv4 EID? >=20 > ok will explain this better, the interworking is protocol and infra = not between protocols > Will need to make this clearer int he text > =20 > This will cause a misinterpretation of the usefulness of locator/id = split. I believe this should not be in the charter. >=20 > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, = pub/sub, multihoming, ...) > > > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their = associated identifiers. > > > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to = framework, update of information for identifiers..) > > > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. = ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic = for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, = e.g. type) > > > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. >=20 > The above items are all useful and need to be defined and more = importantly deployed, so we can experiment with the solutions that meet = the requirements of this working group. >=20 > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure = interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. = Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when = appropriate. >=20 > I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make = sure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from = IDEAS. But not to make them interoperate. >=20 >=20 > Sure we are in agreement will reword for clarity >=20 > Thanks for your review and feedback >=20 > Padma=20 > Dino >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Aug 14 12:02:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524F3132409 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E-rGwy3vICl3 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22a.google.com (mail-qt0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6201132408 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id a18so56966778qta.0 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=459E2PSVOvA7+rDBVRM1Qc+klGjx+dI3D5ZqMfyggWo=; b=Agyp7NKFNqhoFS2wbIC6z4sonK7Hac8mdz2IBi2NPuVMUNSAfKL6ImTpb6dq0ucKdM hdWJDZFHoP6BwTr65x9X8Txjb28U0xIT3Iz4I4fsvAww1eEXPQcDOSXb3hNeCQnBMLhZ NacxBC60L/BcvF2NTgsSU70h8bN/np5rwlq2oOQa/SwrZZCc25WWNwdXlIZa3WKVqaLn sBQwImgp/AlNUFo7J3YQabuqLSYdA8gHiBTgmkQVHWwWMtf5lO6pZKs02ErV2IwZZa1N LBS/qTl6KQFLfb6vS/mwQW1frZiivsB3spnhlbVKJesOwihDKev6e6leUoG3dHOrklVr dlww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=459E2PSVOvA7+rDBVRM1Qc+klGjx+dI3D5ZqMfyggWo=; b=sfWEicOwcSmpP4MGuWz9oKbhnhqL8oBUrp54qLtAQg+dlO7JuwRJi6bbIVJRhURtnp 3zYOC/nGXLFIUHZEh3jH6iWCKhpAVbbNIQEWjpts7l8J71BfY9CwsZyNaFKXsKwsBKu/ H+yeHjHsbPDW5J0RyEkD2KjgcY0zW52nLVjGW3fVRpeJ39wXGHxZ1nvpFtlUWeUIJ+sT EUQ3edxewXUvWW7kW83KUI0XZhdCqbqPUJpbI2SDhl3aInbGyvSCz8RxHGcGpMd2EGTm 0zLDZPXJ3ZzkGnTxJUGW1O0euXRY7b4BFBJrRHyWPTAEKmjtHbFPbUh08bBLagMYVuyw 3xOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jOAldEaBotBZ37KSufO/9qeChXLbA5h5c/LJU3nAfrzP1Et4PK 9IhN0lKAEdeUg10byvptRzAMn/Sx4A== X-Received: by 10.200.44.97 with SMTP id e30mr34871047qta.319.1502737319776; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:01:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Shreyasee Mukherjee Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114079ac22d9ff0556bb4c44" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 19:02:05 -0000 --001a114079ac22d9ff0556bb4c44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Shreyasee Thanks your for your review and suggested edits. See below On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Shreyasee Mukherjee < shreya@winlab.rutgers.edu> wrote: > > Dear Padma, > > This version reads well. Professor Ray and we at WINLAB had a few minor > comments. We agree with Alex's previous comment on including some notion > that the mapping system should have the flexibility of mapping not just > identifiers to locators but also allow mapping identifiers to other > identifiers. This is a powerful tool and we have looked into how such > recursive mapping of identifiers allows newer network services to be > enabled such as context-aware multicast. This can also be extended to > support privacy concerns wherein an identifier could map into a whitelist > or blacklist of identifiers for lookup queries. In that regard, our > comments to the charter proposal are provided inline. > > Thank you, > Shreyasee > >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Alexander Clemm >> To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Padmadevi Pillay >> Esnault >> Cc: Tom Herbert , "ideas@ietf.org" >> Bcc: >> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 21:49:29 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version >> >> This version sounds fine to me. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> --- Alex >> >> >> >> *From:* Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2017 9:36 PM >> *To:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault >> *Cc:* Alexander Clemm ; Tom Herbert < >> tom@herbertland.com>; ideas@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Versio= n >> >> >> >> Hello All >> >> >> >> Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17. >> >> >> >> Please send your comments and feedback on the list. >> >> >> >> >> >> IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> Proposed Charter >> >> >> >> Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation >> are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across >> heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols >> require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network >> topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. Identifier-l= ocator >> protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic >> association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dyna= mic >> multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries. >> > > ok will add > A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator >> protocols as well as for network virtualization. However, additional >> infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new >> requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and >> mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. >> >> >> >> At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking >> information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand >> greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable >> networking applications and services that provide a high degree of priva= cy >> and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with great= er >> inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. >> >> >> >> To this end, the working group shall: >> >> - define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related >> protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols >> that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations = as >> needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to >> physical addresses >> >> >> >> - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and ne= w >> mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. The common >> mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These new >> functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity >> while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring >> that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed o= nly >> on a need-to-know basis. >> > > - In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, > the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an > identifier can be mapped to multiple identifiers , , > =E2=80=A6. This is useful for incorporating hierarchies associated= with the > ontology tree of the information being accessed, as well as for scaling o= f > multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier to large > numbers of network addresses. > I did not hear of any objections on the list. Will add this in the latest version and will resent to the list. > > >> >> >> Some examples of the problem space are: >> >> - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common >> infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent >> basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure >> that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings >> reduces operational and deployment complexity. The API should be >> sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including >> identifier to network address =C3=A0 , identifier to multiple >> network addresses =C3=A0 , , =E2=80=A6, and identif= ier to one or >> more identifiers =C3=A0 , , =E2=80=A6. >> >> >> >> - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal >> information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way= to >> prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fi= ner >> grain rules. >> >> >> >> - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirabl= e >> for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, >> when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flo= ws >> can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint >> communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining >> their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers >> and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic a= nd >> conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. >> >> >> >> The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to >> develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocol= s >> and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the com= mon >> framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services >> (GRIDS). >> >> >> >> The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes >> needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled >> protocols. >> >> >> >> Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the >> modular framework: >> >> >> >> - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location >> split protocols >> >> - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, >> multihoming, ...) >> >> - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their >> associated identifiers. >> >> - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, >> update of information for identifiers..) >> >> - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability >> to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for >> particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) >> >> - Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or slow changing, e.g. >> type) >> >> - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. >> >> >> >> The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure >> interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermor= e, >> it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. >> >> >> >> WG deliverables include: >> >> Generic Identity Services Framework =E2=80=93 should this be defined fur= ther in >> terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update >> protocol, etc.? >> >> I woud defer to the list on this. The paragraph above also describes some of this. We could expand there Thanks Padma > >> >> WG sustaining/informational documents may include: >> >> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained >> in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the >> efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: >> >> - Problem statement >> >> - Use cases >> >> - Requirements >> >> - Applications of the architecture for use cases >> >> >> >> >> >> Milestones >> >> March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework >> >> August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework >> >> December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault < >> padma@huawei.com> wrote: >> >> Sure >> >> >> >> However, been wondering if it is best not to be so specific in the >> charter. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> >> >> Padma >> >> >> >> *From:* Alexander Clemm >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM >> *To:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert >> *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault >> >> >> *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Versio= n >> >> >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be >> useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by mean= s of >> example, mappings between identifiers. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> --- Alex >> >> >> >> *From:* Padmadevi Pillay Esnault >> *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM >> *To:* Alexander Clemm ; Tom Herbert < >> tom@herbertland.com> >> *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pillay-Esnault >> *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Versio= n >> >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for removing of identity >> concept. >> >> He asked to make the section on common infrastructure clearer with this >> sentence. >> >> >> >> I agree with you that the mappings should not be restricted to 1->n >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Padma >> >> >> >> *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *= On >> Behalf Of *Alexander Clemm >> *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM >> *To:* Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert >> *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Versio= n >> >> >> >> I am not sure we should restrict ourselves to mapping between identifier= s >> and locators. >> >> >> >> I would at a minimum want to include mappings between identifiers, and >> between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings of >> identifiers. >> >> >> >> If we take out the identity concept, we should also rename the WG. >> >> >> >> --- Alex >> >> >> >> *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *= On >> Behalf Of *Padma Pillay-Esnault >> *Sent:* Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM >> *To:* Tom Herbert >> *Cc:* ideas@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Versio= n >> >> >> >> Hi Tom >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > To this end, the working group shall: >> > >> > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator >> mapping >> > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator >> mapping >> > protocols and network virtualization. >> > >> >> Padma, >> >> I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common >> mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about >> something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control >> plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for >> identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well >> as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical >> addresses" >> >> >> >> Fine with me. >> >> >> >> Let's poll the list for consensus on this. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Padma >> >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ideas mailing list >> Ideas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a114079ac22d9ff0556bb4c44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Shreyasee

Thanks your for your rev= iew and suggested edits.

See below <Padma>

On Fri, Aug 1= 1, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Shreyasee Mukherjee <shreya@winlab.rutgers.edu= > wrote:
<= br>
Dear Padma,=C2=A0

This version reads well. Professo= r Ray and we at WINLAB had a few minor comments. We agree with Alex's= =C2=A0previous comment on including some notion that the mapping system sho= uld have the flexibility of mapping not just identifiers to locators but al= so allow mapping identifiers to other identifiers. This is a powerful tool = and we=C2=A0have looked into how such recursive mapping of identifiers allo= ws newer network services to be enabled such as context-aware multicast. Th= is can also be extended to support privacy concerns wherein an identifier c= ould map into a whitelist or blacklist of identifiers for lookup queries. I= n that regard, our comments to the charter proposal are provided inline.

Thank yo= u,
Shreyasee

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:= =C2=A0Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To:=C2=A0Padma Pillay-= Esnault <padma= .ietf@gmail.com>, Padmadevi Pillay Esnault <padma@huawei.com>
Cc:=C2=A0Tom H= erbert <tom@her= bertland.com>, "ideas@ietf.org" <ideas@ietf.org>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Wed, 9 Aug 2= 017 21:49:29 +0000
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Chart= er Proposal New Version

This version sounds fine to me.

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Padma Pillay-Esnault [mailto:padma.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 9:36 PM
To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault <padma@huawei.com>
Cc: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert = <tom@herbertlan= d.com>; ideas@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Hello All

=C2=A0

Here is the latest version as of 08/08/17.=

=C2=A0

Please send your comments and feedback on the list.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier= -Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and mul= ti-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover = the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery.=C2= =A0Ide= ntifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic associa= tion of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, = cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0
<Padma> ok w= ill add
=C2=A0

A common infrastructure and protocol could be used = by identifier/locator protocols as well as for network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed = to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery s= ervice and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

At the same time, end users require greater privacy = for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while= operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable networking applications and servic= es that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over the= ir networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by= today=E2=80=99s networks. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:<= u>

- define and develop a common mapping system, contro= l plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier= /locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtu= alization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

=C2=A0

- in addition, introduce the concept of ident= ity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically chan= ge identifiers. The common mapping system will include identity to identifier mappings. These new functionalities may, for example, facili= tate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that migh= t result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and t= heir location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.


-=C2=A0 In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier <IDf> can be mapped to multiple identifiers <IDf1>, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>.=C2=A0 This i= s useful for incorporating hierarchies associated with the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as wel= l as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier = to large numbers of network addresses.


<Padma>= I did not hear of any objections on the list.=C2=A0
Will add thi= s in the latest version and will resent to the list.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Some examples of the problem space are:

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The l= ack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common a= nd consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as i= dentifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.= =C2=A0The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including identifier to network address = <IDf> =C3=A0<= span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial"> <NA>, identifier to= multiple network addresses <IDf> =C3=A0 <NA1>, &= lt;NA2>, =E2=80=A6<NAn>, and identifier to one or more identifiers <IDf> =C3=A0 <IDf1= >, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identif= ier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, the= re is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules.

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public id= entifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy= issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to sp= ecific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to cha= nge their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies= . The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and con= ceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group = is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-b= ased protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of servic= es as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recomm= endations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and iden= tifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to wo= rk on these areas for the modular framework:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Definition of primitives for interworking with ide= ntifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (= e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identitie= s and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. ac= cess to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking pol= icies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwardin= g traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or sl= ow changing, e.g. type)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropria= te.

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Work= ing Groups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevan= t work. Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework=C2=A0<= /u>=E2=80=93 should this be defined further in terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update protocol, etc.= ?


<Padma> I woud defer t= o the list on this. The paragraph above also describes some of this. We cou= ld expand there=C2=A0

Thanks
Padma
=
=

= =C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

These documents may not necessarily be published, bu= t may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wik= i to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity S= ervices framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services f= ramework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framewo= rk draft to the IESG

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esn= ault <padma@huawei= .com> wrote:

Sure

=C2=A0

However, been wondering if it is best not to= be so specific in the charter.

Thoughts?

=C2=A0

Padma

=C2=A0

From: Alexander Clemm
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM
To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault


Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

OK.

=C2=A0

If we want to have a more specific list of s= upported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means of example, mappings betwe= en identifiers.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg; Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Alex

=C2=A0

My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for= removing of identity concept.

He asked to make the section on common infra= structure clearer with this sentence.

=C2=A0

I agree with you that the mappings should no= t be restricted to 1->n

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

I am not sure we should restrict ourselves t= o mapping between identifiers and locators.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I would at a minimum want to include mapping= s between identifiers, and between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings of identifiers.

=C2=A0

If we take out the identity concept, we shou= ld also rename the WG. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Hi Tom

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

>
> To this end, the working group shall:
>
 > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapp= ing
> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapp= ing
> protocols and network virtualization.
>

Padma,=

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common
mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about
something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control
plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for
 identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well
as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical
addresses"

=C2=A0

Fine with me.

=C2=A0

Let's poll the list for consensus on this.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

Tom

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas



_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a114079ac22d9ff0556bb4c44-- From nobody Mon Aug 14 12:07:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04E51323D7 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UunYBUZoO3D1 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC87B132399 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 16so56890410qtz.4 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a30iyu29AR4rAQfJovwX9bw2aBSl8uiiXZ5DI6JT1No=; b=ZBnU+Aa0jeA6jKA03YOWqycASeesGBuUklqiolOAc0G8YnG+GIhwi+chmuSvxz/KA/ q10cFkNki+atyt/wK0GIVp227tNlLsD6jzrAwGhiLwsm6BOOpOvCldZGPitRQfTtQGe7 1WmXn/7TtxJuNqrE4bJV6xnja8bsZUNtX+AplkEeAhsm6XB0/5AJXOASjPcKbE5iXkWw NjYGrUFktPEI5ZM9iDyg5fe06wMeTkCSVyEJwP4VD8fSCHbGfM0VcgVTtL+vevAyhqGb zEvY/optrisbt7Y97eb6EAPQe4/jKbyYYVpQpNGScbjWEV2P6hIaEG949FNQcbAqbkKH PrUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a30iyu29AR4rAQfJovwX9bw2aBSl8uiiXZ5DI6JT1No=; b=DxnPUlqVgm4eqfqs1h+FyuuYme9D3shZZjhK1OupUTaBYseteMx/bkQMLVkCSXycXe PwJLLUi0DgXJGfmYlLK00sXhG/6ieP8ydEH+16wpCmE6korwn00APH2oNm9znSaVzgXl QiKZl5A+RTF8n9PcegYMF42XJhs4rV41lq3+LBbu1WaPo/GX+/xUbLycCT0pVwlSJd61 wOn5O36GSj5OdyWk7swfYQE7x7gGkEVkkIg6UQBeSkbZNfNVjcEiE6ayG0lpAVXecTqz yg1/IzIo9OvQQZ7QbHYxaK2PWs+4ZHSumXO8BlfHo5+dwew/r4+M+dRidUakJ1wgtudW fakw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5j45yBH6NHWjyfZovTdiZAwo87C9pYTyg7bZvx+8cRMQN30ED1+ LrFEkL+c4xou0sv97+2EdolIDET0rg== X-Received: by 10.200.12.11 with SMTP id k11mr36147192qti.286.1502737665991; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.43.199 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:07:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Di Ma , ideas@ietf.org Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e0822fc0cc5a7a80556bb60ce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 19:07:49 -0000 --089e0822fc0cc5a7a80556bb60ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Di Ma, Thank you for your review and feedback, On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Di Ma wrote: > Dear Padma, > > I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people > fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via > identity/identifier separation. > > Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet. Threat > model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of > future IDEAS security mechanisms. > While I do not believe we are introducing new risks with the proper caution but we should certainly be careful not to inadvertently do so. IMHO, a threat model would be an interesting document for the wg. I would like to poll the wg to see what people think of this suggestion. Thanks Padma > > I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables. > > > Di Ma > RPSTIR > https://bgpsecurity.net > > --089e0822fc0cc5a7a80556bb60ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Di Ma,

Thank= you for your review and feedback,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Di Ma <madi@rpstir.n= et> wrote:
Dear Padma,

I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people fan= cy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via identity/= identifier separation.

Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet.=C2=A0 Threa= t model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of fut= ure IDEAS security mechanisms.

<Padm= a> While I do not believe we are introducing new risks with the proper c= aution but we should certainly be careful not to inadvertently do so.
=

IMHO, a threat model would be an interesting document f= or the wg.=C2=A0
I would like to poll the wg to see what people t= hink of this suggestion.


Thanks
Padma

I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables.


Di=C2=A0 Ma
RPSTIR
ht= tps://bgpsecurity.net

--089e0822fc0cc5a7a80556bb60ce-- From nobody Mon Aug 14 14:25:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC3113243C for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zdIOUdFKa5Pn for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E89E0132436 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMQ21815; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 21:25:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 22:25:25 +0100 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.191]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.62]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:25:20 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , Robert Moskowitz CC: "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AQHTDzzgUS7uPdtb6kawD7XMB3wLtKJ+hC4AgAYvdAD//7SqsA== Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 21:25:19 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0F5466@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <49cf40d7-9c32-5b22-2955-18ea85405edc@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.48.66] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0F5466SJCEML701CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.59921548.007B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.191, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 568c37afbae3014cd6950539b3eda132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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--_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0E0F5466SJCEML701CHMchi_-- From ray@winlab.rutgers.edu Wed Aug 16 10:12:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7886913235E for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:12:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=winlab-rutgers-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fY1JzkkjikqM for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76E4513234E for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id e124so42568833oig.2 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=winlab-rutgers-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:thread-index:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7mQ+D+NJAyQoIkXl7JbXgXwlavpM66SvCi5Q/rcPH64=; b=Kk2TMcotiVlx7aorvMa34uN9KgoQqsv4GJ+Y/p/5QFBKZJFkBGpJRlOTh79lv9Ckgp 3fkJdRag1LeSp2CGcCmBbZCZZh7KyaoZoOrF24zA/nWD+D7wQTWivZplz7hcbhai82Cf 45NHaxAYzKFisb73QqNHSeZEzKcVci3hVRhciCHKqt7tUNGuPL2PIIIwOHV1la/owgBu d+cqZdmeGXsn3CzaNpXiLBjrp84I8UFmB4yY4Dkh/yNft00kxhKz1BIh3uDjP8DS4n1c dR8WD+dV/GBZnxRFYll9nvpQKbHj1+p8DtzdT4HhvCLZ1puRGhMkIn3cTHyJsES7sMB7 4TFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: 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To: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113cc00c80b9540556e1fead" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 17:12:57 -0000 --001a113cc00c80b9540556e1fead Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start. My main comments are: (1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted =E2=80=9Cname certification service=E2=80=9D [cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst: = A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Ma= ppings in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS 2012] (2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc. We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creation. (3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec. (4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80=99s scope is intentional= ly limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure. Ray (D. Raychaudhuri) WINLAB, Rutgers University --001a113cc00c80b9540556e1fead Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start.=C2=A0 My= main comments are:

(1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, whic= h is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic chang= e of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted= =E2=80=9Cname certification service=E2=80=9D =C2=A0[cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityF= irst: A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future= Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator ma= pping/resolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dy= namic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS= 2012]

(2) = A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multipl= e types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), = identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifie= r to a list of locators, etc.=C2=A0 We have found the recursive identifier = resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creatio= n.=C2=A0

(3= ) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bi= t further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol defi= nitions to be included in the spec.=C2=A0

= (4) While I realize that the current charter= =E2=80=99s scope is intentionally limited to defining general-purpose contr= ol plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking= one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compa= tible with the IDEAS infrastructure.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ray

=C2=A0

(D. Raychaudhuri)

WINLAB, Rutgers University

--001a113cc00c80b9540556e1fead-- From nobody Wed Aug 16 12:58:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B09C132350 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 12:58:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHE41rad13sk for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 12:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 479C01326DD for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 12:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79917621AD; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:57:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id DkuzTaB45zMP; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1FF7C621AC; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:57:46 -0400 (EDT) To: Dipankar Raychaudhuri , ideas@ietf.org References: <175f533795012c49555543dda2f1f3a8@mail.gmail.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <61c9fd55-b7b7-e4b7-2f62-a1026a46ce0f@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:57:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <175f533795012c49555543dda2f1f3a8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------41CAB2B49C8264AB750ED9A8" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 19:58:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------41CAB2B49C8264AB750ED9A8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ray, On 08/16/2017 01:11 PM, Dipankar Raychaudhuri wrote: > > I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start. My > main comments are: > > (1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is > necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic > change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to > a trusted “name certification service” [cf. “MobilityFirst: A Robust > and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, > ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator > mapping/resolution service [cf. ”DMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for > Dynamic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet”, ICDCS > 2012] > > (2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to > support multiple types of resolution including identifier to > identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, > identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc. > We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be > very useful for scaling and new service creation. > > (3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled > in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update > protocol definitions to be included in the spec. > You really don't want a starting charter this specific. You can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a sore item in the IETF. Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and capablities, not APIs. Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup. > (4) While I realize that the current charter’s scope is intentionally > limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec > could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific > identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the > IDEAS infrastructure. > This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a charter revision. I need to talk to you separately about TAPS... > Ray > > Bob --------------41CAB2B49C8264AB750ED9A8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ray,

On 08/16/2017 01:11 PM, Dipankar Raychaudhuri wrote:

I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start.  My main comments are:

(1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted “name certification service”  [cf. “MobilityFirst: A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. ”DMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet”, ICDCS 2012]

(2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc.  We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creation. 

(3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec.


You really don't want a starting charter this specific.  You can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a sore item in the IETF.  Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and capablities, not APIs.  Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup.

(4) While I realize that the current charter’s scope is intentionally limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure. 


This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a charter revision.  I need to talk to you separately about TAPS...

 

Ray



Bob

--------------41CAB2B49C8264AB750ED9A8-- From nobody Wed Aug 16 16:30:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2447132335 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:30:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z2RT9iJa-bMp for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C352413235E for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DTO57906; Wed, 16 Aug 2017 23:30:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.135) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 00:30:15 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.174]) by dggemi402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.135]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:30:10 +0800 From: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" To: Dipankar Raychaudhuri , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Thread-Index: AdMWqYLgpUj993RLRk2klH7D5AtAjAAPeWCA Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 23:30:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <175f533795012c49555543dda2f1f3a8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <175f533795012c49555543dda2f1f3a8@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.168.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A2A5DCDGGEMI506MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.5994D589.00C9, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.174, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 018e6e1cce410ee72e0571540e9b9256 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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--_000_C1CE72EE84AF224E94DA21AE134209EE01A2A5DCDGGEMI506MBXchi_-- From nobody Thu Aug 17 08:51:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007081321D9 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 08:51:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=winlab-rutgers-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E3nmMJbDrAUt for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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AQLWEYE9qkDTc+1O4Je1xqy8x/mLjgKSyiPJoG4m2QA= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 11:51:29 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Liubingyang (Bryan)" , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141c25ef5fe780556f4fc29" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 15:51:43 -0000 --001a1141c25ef5fe780556f4fc29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Examples of identifier-based routing protocols are: HIP, LISP, MobilityFirst, NDN. *From:* Liubingyang (Bryan) [mailto:liubingyang@huawei.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:30 PM *To:* Dipankar Raychaudhuri; ideas@ietf.org *Subject:* RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version Ray, Could you please name a few such protocols you mentioned in (4) ? Thanks Bingyang *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org ] *On Behalf Of *Dipankar Raychaudhuri *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:12 AM *To:* ideas@ietf.org *Subject:* Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start. My main comments are: (1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted =E2=80=9Cname certification service=E2=80=9D [cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst: = A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Ma= ppings in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS 2012] (2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc. We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creation. (3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec. (4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80=99s scope is intentional= ly limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure. Ray (D. Raychaudhuri) WINLAB, Rutgers University --001a1141c25ef5fe780556f4fc29 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Examples of identifier-based routing protocols are: HIP, LISP, MobilityFir= st, NDN.

=C2= =A0

From: Liubingyang (Bryan) [mailto:liubingyang@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, Augu= st 16, 2017 7:30 PM
To: Dipankar Raychaudhuri; ideas@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Inpu= t requested: Charter Proposal New Version

=C2=A0

Ray,

= =C2=A0

Co= uld you please name a few such protocols you mentioned in (4) ?

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Thanks

Bingyang

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Dipankar Raychaudhuri
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2= 017 1:12 AM
To: ideas@ietf.org<= /a>
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal N= ew Version

=C2=A0

I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a go= od start.=C2=A0 My main comments are:

(1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is ne= cessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of id= entifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted =E2=80= =9Cname certification service=E2=80=9D =C2=A0[cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst: A= Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Intern= et, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/r= esolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic I= dentifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS 2012]<= /span>

(2) A key requirement for the mapping= service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including i= dentifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifier= s, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc.=C2= =A0 We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very= useful for scaling and new service creation.=C2=A0

(3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should= be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/up= date protocol definitions to be included in the spec.=C2=A0

(4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80= =99s scope is intentionally limited to defining general-purpose control pla= ne support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one o= r more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible = with the IDEAS infrastructure.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ray

=C2=A0

(D. Raychaudhuri)=

WINLAB, Rutgers University

--001a1141c25ef5fe780556f4fc29-- From nobody Thu Aug 17 22:59:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7CE1323D7 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmJdgDeRLQd7 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x236.google.com (mail-yw0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1DD213239E for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x236.google.com with SMTP id p68so53430832ywg.0 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=919agIFsV5ibUgwegGyK6m4T/gsjebovOSB94gRjPCA=; b=ATNspGIUXJCXYMftJmYcfv5qcJPlFRtR/laeN8tmZrdFGPZr65GB5GvFI9GVYCF4Re AvuJZAXh8woIvIC8+Rjy58ZI87o3MzzwiaK9WYPb/q/KkZlVfgP4QnBOhjWLfRaXJWYN lw19Tlyn4U3Zg49HpFRdB56q50FDomo1Y8jxcrpDWNhalJCqgCLXBFGk7M44Kfyrumy3 mJ+ifJYX3MplK3WXQ8U757KTqNIJk0y4DyvYknG27175iNDLKxA9tMZTKJnS7X8BpyvH t/O1MoWNtYesXttDmP9Y/RLuiJCHigdf/Sj1DbhA7b/a0mzpIZY1X+JuZk7ECJsSfNgu H15g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=919agIFsV5ibUgwegGyK6m4T/gsjebovOSB94gRjPCA=; b=nl7yxAh22W84h/BYrEuT40PUMKCLLK5HR+aasHewJr9aOWvjaANQ7VqT5l+mBkKmf0 oQC+w40Ev9S6RoWnS2ZOfQlPMmZJV/QMPSW0BpXkhAR7WQyICbArTj0A6CEIbvj2Gre1 UvZASJfATPqoZ6lAP0+R5+toZ7HkwJrw5vOTuhX8fus0/9AQWxPaASvaaDaFHd9mIPi3 OiRtjAg6AR7iApRiR7gW/cPso5/bQK8yS2rKaMzUq/H6x139nNzqwiOtvHl7I1zfJ68Q gMhESsu7JUFhXLOUVHZps9WofmzmjGgpkA4mh5xb5i6XR8dijQ3qQ9js4zkCwP85CJ5P jtlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jgb+I23UEq9uDzHWHGfJOWZuKWllKvPORIYadQmdhIROyRYEpW WUjBywOLrvKwzua5z2FKD8HEr2ShfQ== X-Received: by 10.37.35.150 with SMTP id j144mr6731171ybj.263.1503035993078; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.172.141 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Albert Cabellos Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 14:59:52 +0900 Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault Cc: ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d471e73da1f055700d614" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Version X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 05:59:57 -0000 --001a113d471e73da1f055700d614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you can find some comments inline: On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list > and off the list. > > This new version should address comments from: > - Michael Menth. Michael, please let us know if this revision address > some of your comments on clarity. > - Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition= . > - Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. > -Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework i= s > modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the bas= ic > identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity > concept and functionalities. > - Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o > accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > - Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids > aspect if needed. > > Please find the new version below: > > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > > > > Proposed Charter > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across > heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols > require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network > topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common > infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols > as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and > new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go we= ll > beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of > identifier-to-location for packet delivery. > > > I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a use-case. > At the same time, end users require greater privacy for their networking > information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand > greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks aim to enable > networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privac= y > and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greate= r > inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping > system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping > protocols and network virtualization. > specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead of develop, etc) 'for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be too generic and not realizable. > > > - in addition, introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring > that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed on= ly > on a need-to-know basis. > why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in addition'. > > > Some examples of the problem space are: > why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding below you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I suggest rewriting to "The problem space is:" > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent > basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings > reduces operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers > and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic an= d > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols > and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the comm= on > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location spli= t > protocols > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multihoming, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Groups to ensure > interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthermore= , > it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include the definition: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > > > WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n > a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a113d471e73da1f055700d614 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all

I agree -in general- with the ch= arter in its current form, below you can find some comments inline:

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017= at 2:20 PM, Padma Pillay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:
Dear IDEAS,

Thanks to everyone who sent their comments= and feedback both on the list and off the list.

T= his new version should address comments from:
- =C2=A0Michael Men= th. Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comme= nts on clarity.
- Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision= regarding your addition.=C2=A0
- Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your = suggestions are incorporated in this version.
-Tom and Alex, this= version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of= areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protoco= l common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functio= nalities.
- Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, t= here is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is fl= exible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework.= =C2=A0
- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover t= he inter-grids aspect if needed.

Please find the n= ew version below:

IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D <= span>

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier= -Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protoco= ls require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topologica= l location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensi= ons are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0

=C2=A0


I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualiza= tion as a use-case.
=C2=A0

At the same time, end users require greater privacy = for their networking information and protection from outside threats, while operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks = aim to enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree o= f privacy and control of end points over their networking data, coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:

- define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapping system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapping protocols and network virtualization.

<= /div>

specify instead of define? (same acro= ss the charter, specify instead of develop, etc)
'for *existi= ng* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be too gener= ic and not realizable.

=C2=A0

- in addition, introduce the concept of identity-ide= ntifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is reve= aled only on a need-to-know basis.


why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: &#= 39;in addition'.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Some examples of the problem space are:


why 'some examples'? This looks= very vague. From my understanding below you have a solid and complete defi= nition of the problem state. I suggest rewriting to "The problem space= is:"
=C2=A0

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of = a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and consistent ba= sic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that app= ly to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identif= ier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no= way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or fi= ner grain rules.

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody = to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining th= eir identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and acce= ss control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group = is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-base= d protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to = the common framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS= ).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recomm= endations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-ena= bled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on t= hese areas for the modular framework:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. di= scovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identitie= s and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. ac= cess to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking pol= icies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traf= fic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow ch= anging)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropria= te.

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Gro= ups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work. Furthe= rmore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include the definition:=

Generic Identity Services Framework

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include: <= span>

These documents may not necessarily be published, bu= t may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to supp= ort the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

=C2=A0

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity S= ervices framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services f= ramework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framewo= rk draft to the IESG


_______________________________________________
Ideas mailing list
Ideas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas


--001a113d471e73da1f055700d614-- From nobody Sun Aug 20 23:02:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A0E13209D for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1NWjnEKaw3mr for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC1F31241F5 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id z18so78006262qka.4 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/yP2CLgWUQm36IYasCfcTtTfX1+Jo4bsso46xbKQ5qQ=; b=L+C5K9kzAx1GbZ9koOaYh3dXOi5ehT/mc44NR5FOFVwzGSH7XMAS5tK/sv6cYrBIvk oo3hB1wC5YZ8ehd7V7m02aXACmxICtm0Wl+wi9kEmFeL6CNA9J8lGMGq6e3gRXazKUJw w/wxRRy7vOT1gRcoUXFz+fmB12xz+y352SJSvs9lEX7Z8H/Gids8V2L/YXColoooJGBP ThhFmT3KYctVaSD6Dhh587xjXTQd8bFsNyThN2iL0p4zRuzE4+SJI/BVDM6iISV8mPg2 v1VaBgB3iL7PUltlMOZPcbaLNfjQeLF8Hug4vXXAu8q31UoMFM7j2kawh8bjBd1xXDoL z3Xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/yP2CLgWUQm36IYasCfcTtTfX1+Jo4bsso46xbKQ5qQ=; b=kedoKwgWojYStq+Oh3HDj0zyurP2vC99jbOEj+e3HP8L6HAj97hW+raJZg5c57ARA7 nGEnp7kruj9TJ45uXJKCCGe2+NOEIp/FrtRebMfaRYr/TjvSDYrdwNDCUfTpnnt9LmBL isDwBqZXkXpQVfcri6R9Kot9n7Z5KUdjpum/KZcePQT5/3465ro3x43bL0oLuXrviEsq GsPcO0zH6kzi+mypa6SutWyOml+vG3gldUJyimJbccMH3lTrHKw6JFZo4JKerqSVk0cm WquIqaNFoedJpsIkIEfgUIPoOVpGnetTKeuGP+cDTNF7aoBrZ0K8wwXc38MvN5AX7TKt LK0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hWgIQVmynRsR2JqaYpjuDA8AvwxZ/2OkEormc5V2v19VIFy+e2 Dsv5XlN7+BWDEoQ63jTAYE6bLMj5nnYF X-Received: by 10.55.204.205 with SMTP id n74mr20961548qkl.31.1503295361378; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.63.40 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Padma Pillay-Esnault Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:02:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: ideas@ietf.org Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1147998201ef8b05573d3a10" Archived-At: Subject: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 06:02:47 -0000 --001a1147998201ef8b05573d3a10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IDEAS, Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list. The version below has integrated all the comments, inputs as well as discussions on the alias for the last 2 weeks. For your reference, a log of comments can be found at the end of this email. *Please send your comments by **Thursday 08/24/2017 latest for t**his final round for feedback.* *IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D* *Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter* Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay networking for virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries. End users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, and operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their identity address, location address, and data coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. To this end, the working group shall: - Specify and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that provide a solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses - Introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis. The problem space is: - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user-defined policy or finer grain rules. - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to specify a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols. Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework: - Specify a mapping system supporting the mapping combinations as needed - Definition of primitives for identifier-location split protocols to interact with the framework - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multi-homing, ...) - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers. - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..) - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing e.g. type) - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. The IDEAS WG will collaborate with LISP WG and HIP WG to extend their control planes if needed to meet the framework requirements. The WG will also collaborate with other WG for any other relevant work. Furthermore, the WG will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. WG deliverables include: Generic Identity Services Framework Other WG sustaining/informational documents may include: These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: - Problem statement - Use cases - Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution *- *Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS). - Applications of the architecture for use cases *- *Threat model document Milestones March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG *Modification Log and Comments* *Comments on the 08/08/2017 Version * *Sam Sun: * 1) In the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols"? *CLOSED* 2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? For example, - Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution *CLOSED* - Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS). *CLOSED* *Alex Clemm*: This version sounds fine to me. *Uma Chunduri*: Looks fine and the term=E2=80=9D control plane=E2=80=9D can be dropped fr= om the above sentence. #1 *CLOSED* This list doesn=E2=80=99t capture #1 in the earlier description and IMO tha= t should be listed too *CLOSED* *Lan Gao*: I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services Framework. *CLOSED* *Bob Moskowitz*: Basically I am comfortable with the charter content. It has to be a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it. Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some goals tacked to the wall. If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say). But to put my fork in it: "At the same time" ?? what time? The 1st para really does not define a time. Just drop it and start with "End users ..." "and operators demand" Don't make them competitative requirements. They just are. *CLOSED* "Identity-enabled networks aim to enable' They do? Just drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. *CLOSED* For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block. *Dino Farinacci*: I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their identity ad= dress, location address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. *CLOSED* I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80=9D= appears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate existing locator/ID split protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefine and deploy a mapping system=E2=80= =9D. *CLOSED* > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP host = solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host has an IPv4 EID? *CLOSED* I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make sure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. But not to make them interoperate. *CLOSED* *Shreyasee Mukherjee:* Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries. *CLOSED* - In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier can be mapped to multiple identifiers , , =E2=80=A6. This is useful for incorporating hierarchies associated w= ith the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as well as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier to large numbers of network addresses. *CLOSED* The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including identifier to network address =C3=A0 , ident= ifier to multiple network addresses =C3=A0 , , =E2=80=A6, an= d identifier to one or more identifiers =C3=A0, , =E2=80=A6. *RE= JECTED =E2=80=93 Email discussion -Too specific but this is implied by the addition above*. Generic Identity Services Framework =E2=80=93 should this be defined furthe= r in terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update protocol, etc.? *REJECTED per comments on alias* *Di Ma:* I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via identity/identifier separation. Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet. Threat model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of future IDEAS security mechanisms. I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables *CLOSED* *D. Raychaudhuri*: I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start. My main comments are: (1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted =E2=80=9Cname certification service=E2=80=9D [cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst: = A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Ma= ppings in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS 2012] (2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc. We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creation. *CLOSED* (3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec. *REJECTED by email discussion* *Bob M.*: You really don't want a starting charter this specific. You can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a sore item in the IETF. Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and capablities, not APIs. Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup. (4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80=99s scope is intentional= ly limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure. *Bob M.*:This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a charter revision. I need to talk to you separately about TAPS... *Albert Cabellos: * I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you can find some comments inline: I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a use-case. *CLOSED* specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead of develop, etc) 'for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be too generic and not realizable. *CLOSED* why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in addition'. *CLOSED* why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding below you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I suggest rewriting to "The problem space is:" *CLOSED* *Comments on the 08/06/2017 Version * *Yingzhen Qu:* About =E2=80=9C- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)= =E2=80=9D, I remember one of the comments we got before was to further limit the scope of metadata to just a couple of categories, for example type. *CLOSED* *Michael Menth* : Clarity has improved. *Tom Herbert/Diego Lopez*: When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to have a lo= ok at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) *CLOSED* - The charter now mentions to collaborate with other group for relevant work. *Tom Herbert*: I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses" *CLOSED with modifications from Albert, Dino, Uma* *Alex Clemm*: If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means o= f example, mappings between identifiers. *CLOSED* *Comments on the 08/02/201 Version * - *Michael Menth:* Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity. *CLOSED* - *Alex Clemm*. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition. *CLOSED* - *Tom Herbert*. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version. *CLOSED* -*Tom and Alex*, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. *CLOSED* - *Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri*. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. - *Uma Chundhuri*. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed.*CLOSED* --001a1147998201ef8b05573d3a10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear IDEAS,

=C2=A0

Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and= feedback both on the list and off the list.=C2=A0The version below has int= egrated all the comments, inputs as=C2=A0well as discussions on the alias f= or the last 2 weeks. For your reference, a log of comments can be found at = the end of this email.

<= br>

Please send your = comments by=C2=A0Thursday 08/24/2017 latest for this final=C2= =A0round for feedback.



<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D

Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility,=C2=A0overlay networking for virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for pa= cket delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address= new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapp= ing of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic associa= tion of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

End users require greater privacy for their networking information and protecti= on from outside threats,=C2=A0and=C2=A0operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points ov= er their identity address, location address, and data coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. =C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:

-=C2=A0Specify=C2=A0and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that provide a solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as w= ell other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

-=C2=A0Intr= oduce=C2=A0the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues tha= t might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints a= nd their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

=C2=A0

The=C2=A0problem space=C2=A0is:

=C2=A0

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure i= s a barrier for the application of consistent basic networking policies. Likewi= se, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as we= ll as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexit= y.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal informatio= n such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user-defined policy or finer grain rules= .=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirabl= e for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, wh= en identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can b= e pinned by anybody to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communication= s should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity an= d associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive netw= ork information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to specify=C2= =A0a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides servi= ces to address their requirements. We refer to the framework providing the set = of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0=

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed= for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework:=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Specify a mapping system supporting the mapping combinations as needed

-=C2=A0Definition of primitives=C2=A0for=C2=A0identifier-location split protocols=C2=A0= to interact with the framework

<= font face=3D"times new roman, serif">- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multi-h= oming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update= of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to lo= ok up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing e.g. type)

=C2=A0=

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with LISP=C2=A0WG and=C2=A0HIP=C2= =A0WG to extend their control planes if needed to meet the framework requirements= .=C2=A0=C2=A0The WG will also collaborate with other WG for any other relevant work.=C2=A0Fu= rthermore, the WG=C2=A0will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropria= te.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework

<= font face=3D"times new roman, serif">Other WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draf= t form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution

-= =C2=A0Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS).

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

-=C2=A0Threat model document=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Milestones

= March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework

Au= gust 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG

=C2= =A0


Modification Log and Comments

=C2=A0

= Comments on the 08/08/2017 Version= =C2=A0

Sam Sun:

1) In the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what= it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols&qu= ot;? CLOSED
2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? For example,
- Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution CLOSED<= span>

-=C2=A0Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS).=C2=A0CLOSED

=C2=A0

Alex Clemm:=C2=A0

This version sounds fine to me.

=C2=A0

Uma Chunduri<= /b>:=C2=A0

Looks fine and the term=E2=80=9D control plane=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=C2=A0 can be droppe= d from the above sentence.=C2=A0 #1 =C2=A0CLOSED

This list doesn=E2=80=99t capture #1 in the earlier description and IMO that sho= uld be listed too CLOSED

=C2=A0

Lan Gao:

I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services Framework.=C2=A0CLOSED

=C2=A0

Bob Moskowitz= :=C2=A0

Basically I am comfortable with the charter content.=C2=A0 It has to be a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it.=C2=A0 Re= ally that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some goals tacked t= o the wall.

If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say).=C2=A0 But to= put my fork in it:
"At the same time"=C2=A0 ?? what time?=C2=A0 The 1st para really = does not define a time.=C2=A0 Just drop it and start with "End users ...&qu= ot; "and operators demand"=C2=A0 Don't make them competitative requirements.=C2=A0 They just are. CLOSED

"Identity-enabled networks aim to enable'=C2=A0 They do?=C2=A0 Jus= t drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. = CLOSED

For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block.

Dino Farinacci:

I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their identity addr= ess, location address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. CLOSED

= =C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80=9D a= ppears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate existing locator/ID spl= it protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefine and deploy a mapping system=E2=80= =9D. CLOSED

=C2=A0

&g= t; - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols
This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP host = solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host has an IPv4 = EID? CLOSED

I think the IDEAS WG sh= ould work with these working groups to make sure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements fro= m IDEAS. But not to make them interoperate. CLOSED=

Shreyas= ee Mukherjee:=C2=A0

Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic associa= tion of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.=C2=A0 =C2=A0CLOSED<= /b>

=C2=A0

-=C2=A0 In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier <IDf> can be mapped to multiple identifiers <IDf1>, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>.=C2=A0 This is useful for incorporating= hierarchies associated with the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as wel= l as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier = to large numbers of network addresses. CLOSED

=C2=A0

= The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including identifier to network address <IDf>=C2=A0=C3=A0=C2=A0<NA= >, identifier to multiple network addresses <IDf>=C2=A0=C3=A0=C2=A0<N= A1>, <NA2>, =E2=80=A6<NAn>, and identifier to one or more identifier= s=C2=A0<IDf>=C2=A0=C3=A0<IDf1>, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>. REJECTED =E2=80=93 Email discussion -Too specific but this is implied by the addition above.

=C2=A0

Generic Identity Services Framework=C2=A0=E2=80=93 should this be defined further i= n terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update protocol, etc.= ? REJECTED per comments on alias

=C2=A0=

Di Ma:<= span>

I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via identity/identifier separation.

=C2=A0Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet.=C2=A0 Threat mo= del is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of future IDEA= S security mechanisms.

=C2=A0I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables CLOSED

=C2=A0

D. Raychaudhuri:=C2=A0

I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start.=C2=A0 My ma= in comments are:

(1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessar= y for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier= . Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted =E2=80=9Cname certificatio= n service=E2=80=9D =C2=A0[cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst: A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centri= c Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Sh= ared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet=E2= =80=9D, ICDCS 2012]

(2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multipl= e types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifie= r to a list of locators, etc.=C2=A0 We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creatio= n.=C2=A0 CLOSED

(3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec.=C2=A0

REJECTED by email discussion

Bob M.: You really don't want a starting charter this specific.=C2=A0 You can have wording about working on= an API, but APIs have always been a sore item in the IETF.=C2=A0 Also this is = why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and capablities, not APIs.=C2=A0 Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup.

=
(4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80=99s scope is intentional= ly limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of gre= ater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure.=C2=A0

Bob M.:This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a charter revision.=C2=A0 I need to talk to you separately about TAPS...

Albert Cabellos:=C2=A0

I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you can find some comments inline:

I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a use-case= . CLOSED

=C2=A0specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead of develop, et= c)

&= #39;for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be to= o generic and not realizable. CLOSED

=C2=A0why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in a= ddition'.=C2=A0CLOSED

=C2=A0why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding below= you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I suggest rewriting to "The problem space is:" CLOSED

=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Comments on the 08/06/2017 Version=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yingzhen Qu:

About =E2=80=9C- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)=E2=80= =9D, I remember one of the comments we got before was to further limit the scope of metadata to just a couple of categories, for example type. CLOSED

=C2=A0

Michael Menth :=C2=A0

Clarity has improved.

=C2=A0

Tom Herbert/Diego Lopez:

When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to have a look at= how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/)

CLOS= ED - The charter now mentions to collaborate with other group for relevant work.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Tom Herbert:

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and relate= d protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols th= at map identifiers to locators, as well as network virtualization protocols th= at map virtual to physical addresses" CLOSED with modifications from Albert, Dino, Uma

=C2=A0<= /span>

A= lex Clemm:=C2=A0

If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be usefu= l to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means of example,= mappings between identifiers.=C2=A0 CLOSED

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Comments on the 08/02/201 Version=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- =C2=A0Michael Menth: Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity. C= LOSED

- Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition.=C2=A0CLOSED

- Tom Herb= ert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version. CLOSED

-To= m and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be cove= red has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructu= re first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. CLOSED

- Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. Th= is version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining t= he framework.=C2=A0

- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-gri= ds aspect if needed.CLOSED

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0


=
--001a1147998201ef8b05573d3a10-- From nobody Mon Aug 21 01:43:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E929132953 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:43:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M4NUtEjOwfXt for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (mta135.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71882132944 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.69]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D799D20590; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.24]) by opfednr05.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AB4CD20066; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::9044:c5ee:4dd2:4f16%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:43:36 +0200 From: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round Thread-Index: AQHTGkMgnUPKvgVo3kuEMM9af5CMTqKOeWyQ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 08:43:35 +0000 Message-ID: <16181_1503305016_599A9D38_16181_425_1_88132E969123D14D9BD844E1CD516EDE146F9262@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_88132E969123D14D9BD844E1CD516EDE146F9262OPEXCLILMA3corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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[173.11.119.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z86sm13269092pff.160.2017.08.21.10.07.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <16181_1503305016_599A9D38_16181_425_1_88132E969123D14D9BD844E1CD516EDE146F9262@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:07:44 -0700 Cc: Padma Pillay-Esnault , "ideas@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71374583-8AC6-41E6-88DD-D332417F4E84@gmail.com> References: <16181_1503305016_599A9D38_16181_425_1_88132E969123D14D9BD844E1CD516EDE146F9262@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: JACQUENET Christian IMT/OLN X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:07:49 -0000 > Dear all, > =20 > Thanks to Padma for the editing effort. The updated charter looks good = to me and I hope this will lead to the chartering of the WG. A few = (minor) proposals and questions for clarification inline. Same here. Thanks for the big effort Padma. Dino > =20 > [snip] > =20 > IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D > Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter > =20 > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator = separation are increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay = networking for virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous = access networks. > [CJ] I would add =E2=80=9Cin particular=E2=80=9D at the end of the = above sentence. > Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that = allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its = peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could = be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network = virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol = extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond = the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location = for packet delivery. Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for = additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of = network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service = anycast and context-aware IoT queries. =20 > =20 > End users require greater privacy for their networking information and = protection from outside threats, and operators demand greater = operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking = applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and = control of end points over their identity address, location address, and = data coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99= s networks. =20 > =20 > To this end, the working group shall: > - Specify and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that = provide a solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map = identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as = needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to = physical addresses > [CJ] I=E2=80=99m not sure I would keep the last part of the sentence = about network virtualization protocols, as I don=E2=80=99t see why = network virtualization would suggest a specific protocol. > - Introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new = mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new = functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity = while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring = that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed = only on a need-to-know basis. > =20 > The problem space is: > =20 > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common = infrastructure is a barrier for the application of consistent basic = networking policies. > [CJ] Not sure about what lies beneath a basic networking policy, nor = the scope of enforcing such policy =E2=80=93 single/multi-domain? Thus, = I would suggest some elaboration about the actual scope covered by the = said common infrastructure, since a multi-domain/multi-party GRIDS-based = architecture is very likely to raise additional management complexity = (possibly as a function of business models that would infer brokering = services or P2P relationships with the deployment of several mapping = systems operated by different entities) that may not be covered by the = WG, at least not until the proposed framework effort is completed and WG = rechartering considerations appear accordingly. Maybe add =E2=80=9Cat = the scale of a domain=E2=80=9D at the end of the above sentence? > Cheers, > Christian. > =20 > =20 > =20 > = __________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________ >=20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les = messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, = deforme ou falsifie. Merci. >=20 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or = privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and = delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas From nobody Mon Aug 21 11:22:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9A5132A82 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 298_ipMVr4f5 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 11:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 920C51323C9 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 11:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DTW42415; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:22:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 19:22:40 +0100 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.191]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.62]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 11:22:35 -0700 From: Richard Li To: "ideas@ietf.org" CC: Dino Farinacci , JACQUENET Christian IMT/OLN , Padma Pillay-Esnault Thread-Topic: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round Thread-Index: AQHTGkMsAohTTrOIdEWkYyQ05ozjhaKO8/mAgACM2wD//5328A== Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:22:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16181_1503305016_599A9D38_16181_425_1_88132E969123D14D9BD844E1CD516EDE146F9262@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <71374583-8AC6-41E6-88DD-D332417F4E84@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <71374583-8AC6-41E6-88DD-D332417F4E84@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.65] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.599B24F2.0070, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.191, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: c04ad85c8e4c7d9d94030ecc6e65823e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." 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[132.151.7.91]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d1sm2791900qkf.6.2017.08.21.13.09.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org References: From: Sam Sun Message-ID: <56f471f2-4512-15ab-dcdd-b130998ee835@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 16:09:32 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4DF2E2D1CD9F3F9A7B09D63D" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 20:09:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4DF2E2D1CD9F3F9A7B09D63D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Padma, Thanks for putting everything together and the leadership to make this happen. The updated charter looks good! I suggest we put a closure on this after Thursday so that we can start moving forward with the WG. All the best, Sam On 8/21/17 2:02 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > > Dear IDEAS, > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the > list and off the list. The version below has integrated all the > comments, inputs as well as discussions on the alias for the last 2 > weeks. For your reference, a log of comments can be found at the end > of this email. > > > *Please send your comments by **Thursday 08/24/2017 latest for t**his > final round for feedback.* > > > > *IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS”* > > *Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter* > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator > separation are increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay > networking for virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous > access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require > infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological > location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common > infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator > protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional > infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new > requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet > delivery. Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional > services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network > addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and > context-aware IoT queries. > > End users require greater privacy for their networking information and > protection from outside threats, and operators demand greater > operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking > applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and > control of end points over their identity address, location address, > and data coupled with greater inherent security than provided by > today’s networks. > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - Specify and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that > provide a solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map > identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as > needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual > to physical addresses > > - Introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new > mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These > new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through > obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from > abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their > location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis. > > The problem space is: > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of consistent basic > networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure > that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator > mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity. > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no > way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user-defined > policy or finer grain rules. > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be > desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as > well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without > restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. > The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier > while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of > temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help > discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information > of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > specify a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the > framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services > (GRIDS). > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on > changes needed for interactions between the framework and > identifier-enabled protocols. > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > - Specify a mapping system supporting the mapping combinations as needed > > - Definition of primitives for identifier-location split > protocols*//*to interact with the framework > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multi-homing, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their > associated identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. > ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding > traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing e.g. type) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with LISP*//*WG and HIP WG to extend > their control planes if needed to meet the framework > requirements. The WG will also collaborate with other WG for any > other relevant work. Furthermore, the WG will try to reuse > technologies already developed when appropriate. > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > Other WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to > support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution > > */- /*Requirements for identity authentication and authorization > service (for GRIDS). > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > */- /*Threat model document > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > *Modification Log and Comments* > > *Comments on the 08/08/2017 Version * > > *Sam Sun: * > > 1) In the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", > what it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split > protocols"? *CLOSED* > 2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? > For example, > - Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution *CLOSED* > > - Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service > (for GRIDS). *CLOSED* > > *Alex Clemm*: > > This version sounds fine to me. > > ** > > *Uma Chunduri*: > > Looks fine and the term” control plane” can be dropped from the > above sentence. #1 *CLOSED* > > This list doesn’t capture #1 in the earlier description and IMO that > should be listed too *CLOSED* > > *Lan Gao*: > > I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing > the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current > document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity > Services Framework. *CLOSED* > > *Bob Moskowitz*: > > Basically I am comfortable with the charter content. It has to be a > amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board > with it. Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start > with some goals tacked to the wall. > > If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general > info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say). > But to put my fork in it: > "At the same time" ?? what time? The 1st para really does not define > a time. Just drop it and start with "End users ..." "and operators > demand" Don't make them competitative requirements. They just are. > *CLOSED* > > "Identity-enabled networks aim to enable' They do? Just drop the "aim > to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. *CLOSED* > > For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block. > > *Dino Farinacci*: > > I would add “… control of end points over their identity address, > location address, and data coupled with …”. *CLOSED* > > I don’t know why there the use of the word “common” appears > throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate > existing locator/ID split protocols so I would say “define and deploy > a mapping system”. *CLOSED* > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols > This isn’t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP host > solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host > has an IPv4 EID? *CLOSED* > > I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make > sure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from > IDEAS. But not to make them interoperate. *CLOSED* > > *Shreyasee Mukherjee:* > > Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services > involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses > - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and > context-aware IoT queries. *CLOSED* > > - In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network > addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive > mode in which an identifier can be mapped to multiple > identifiers , , …. This is useful for incorporating > hierarchies associated with the ontology tree of the information being > accessed, as well as for scaling of multicast services involving > mapping of a single identifier to large numbers of network addresses. > *CLOSED* > > The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of > resolution including identifier to network address à , > identifier to multiple network addresses à , , …, > and identifier to one or more identifiers à, , > …. *REJECTED – Email discussion -Too specific but this is > implied by the addition above*. > > Generic Identity Services Framework – should this be defined further > in terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service > query/response/update protocol, etc.? *REJECTED per comments on alias* > > *Di Ma:* > > I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since > people fancy anonymity in connecting to different network > environments, via identity/identifier separation. > > Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet. > Threat model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the > design of future IDEAS security mechanisms. > > I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables *CLOSED* > > *D. Raychaudhuri*: > > I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start. My > main comments are: > > (1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is > necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic > change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to > a trusted “name certification service” [cf. “MobilityFirst: A Robust > and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, > ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator > mapping/resolution service [cf. ”DMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for > Dynamic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet”, ICDCS > 2012] > > (2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to > support multiple types of resolution including identifier to > identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, > identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc. > We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be > very useful for scaling and new service creation. *CLOSED* > > (3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled > in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update > protocol definitions to be included in the spec. > > *REJECTED by email discussion* > > *Bob M.*: You really don't want a starting charter this specific. You > can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a > sore item in the IETF. Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces > and capablities, not APIs. Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, > not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup. > > > (4) While I realize that the current charter’s scope is intentionally > limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec > could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific > identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the > IDEAS infrastructure. > > *Bob M.*:This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do > a charter revision. I need to talk to you separately about TAPS... > > *Albert Cabellos: * > > I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you > can find some comments inline: > > I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a > use-case. *CLOSED* > > specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead > of develop, etc) > > 'for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be too > generic and not realizable. *CLOSED* > > why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in > addition'. *CLOSED* > > why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding > below you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I > suggest rewriting to "The problem space is:" *CLOSED* > > *Comments on the 08/06/2017 Version * > > ** > > *Yingzhen Qu:* > > About “- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)”, I > remember one of the comments we got before was to further limit the > scope of metadata to just a couple of categories, for example type. > *CLOSED* > > *Michael Menth* : > > Clarity has improved. > > *Tom Herbert/Diego Lopez*: > > When it comes to these concerns I’d strongly recommend to have a look > at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within > the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) > > *CLOSED* - The charter now mentions to collaborate with other group > for relevant work. > > *Tom Herbert*: > > I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common > mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about > something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control > plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for > identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well > as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical > addresses" *CLOSED with modifications from Albert, Dino, Uma* > > *Alex Clemm*: > > If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may > be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well – by means > of example, mappings between identifiers. *CLOSED* > > *Comments on the 08/02/201 Version * > > - *Michael Menth:* Michael, please let us know if this revision > address some of your comments on clarity. *CLOSED* > > - *Alex Clemm*. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your > addition. *CLOSED* > > - *Tom Herbert*. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in > this version. *CLOSED* > > -*Tom and Alex*, this version include specific working that the > framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been > reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure > first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. *CLOSED* > > - *Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri*. Georgios, Uma, there is still > an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible > enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > > - *Uma Chundhuri*. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the > inter-grids aspect if needed.*CLOSED* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas --------------4DF2E2D1CD9F3F9A7B09D63D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Padma,

Thanks for putting everything together and the leadership to make this happen. The updated charter looks good!

I suggest we put a closure on this after Thursday so that we can start moving forward with the WG.

All the best,
Sam


On 8/21/17 2:02 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote:

Dear IDEAS,

 

Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list. The version below has integrated all the comments, inputs as well as discussions on the alias for the last 2 weeks. For your reference, a log of comments can be found at the end of this email.


Please send your comments by Thursday 08/24/2017 latest for this final round for feedback.



IDEAS: “IDentity EnAbled networkS”

Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter

                 

Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay networking for virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.   

 

End users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats, and operators demand greater operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their identity address, location address, and data coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today’s networks.  

 

To this end, the working group shall:

- Specify and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that provide a solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

- Introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

 

The problem space is:

 

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

 

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user-defined policy or finer grain rules. 

 

- Privacy:  The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.  The endpoint communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

 

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to specify a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

 

The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

 

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework:

                 

- Specify a mapping system supporting the mapping combinations as needed

- Definition of primitives for identifier-location split protocols to interact with the framework

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multi-homing, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis…)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing e.g. type)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.

 

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with LISP WG and HIP WG to extend their control planes if needed to meet the framework requirements.  The WG will also collaborate with other WG for any other relevant work. Furthermore, the WG will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

                 

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework

Other WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution

- Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS).

- Applications of the architecture for use cases

- Threat model document 

 

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG

 


Modification Log and Comments

 

Comments on the 08/08/2017 Version 

Sam Sun:

1) In the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols"? CLOSED
2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? For example,
- Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution CLOSED

- Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS). CLOSED

 

Alex Clemm: 

This version sounds fine to me.

 

Uma Chunduri: 

Looks fine and the term” control plane”   can be dropped from the above sentence.  #1  CLOSED

This list doesn’t capture #1 in the earlier description and IMO that should be listed too CLOSED

 

Lan Gao:

I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services Framework. CLOSED

 

Bob Moskowitz: 

Basically I am comfortable with the charter content.  It has to be a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it.  Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some goals tacked to the wall.

If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say).  But to put my fork in it:
"At the same time"  ?? what time?  The 1st para really does not define a time.  Just drop it and start with "End users ..." "and operators demand"  Don't make them competitative requirements.  They just are. CLOSED

"Identity-enabled networks aim to enable'  They do?  Just drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. CLOSED

For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block.

Dino Farinacci:

I would add “… control of end points over their identity address, location address, and data coupled with …”. CLOSED

 

I don’t know why there the use of the word “common” appears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate existing locator/ID split protocols so I would say “define and deploy a mapping system”. CLOSED

 

> - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols
This isn’t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP host solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host has an IPv4 EID? CLOSED

I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make sure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. But not to make them interoperate. CLOSED

Shreyasee Mukherjee: 

Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.   CLOSED

 

-  In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier <IDf> can be mapped to multiple identifiers <IDf1>, <IDf2>, …<IDfn>.  This is useful for incorporating hierarchies associated with the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as well as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier to large numbers of network addresses. CLOSED

 

The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including identifier to network address <IDf> à <NA>, identifier to multiple network addresses <IDf> à <NA1>, <NA2>, …<NAn>, and identifier to one or more identifiers <IDf> à<IDf1>, <IDf2>, …<IDfn>. REJECTED – Email discussion -Too specific but this is implied by the addition above.

 

Generic Identity Services Framework – should this be defined further in terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update protocol, etc.? REJECTED per comments on alias

 

Di Ma:

I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via identity/identifier separation.

 Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet.  Threat model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of future IDEAS security mechanisms.

 I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables CLOSED

 

D. Raychaudhuri: 

I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start.  My main comments are:

(1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted “name certification service”  [cf. “MobilityFirst: A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. ”DMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet”, ICDCS 2012]

(2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc.  We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creation.  CLOSED

(3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec. 

REJECTED by email discussion

Bob M.: You really don't want a starting charter this specific.  You can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a sore item in the IETF.  Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and capablities, not APIs.  Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup.


(4) While I realize that the current charter’s scope is intentionally limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure. 

Bob M.:This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a charter revision.  I need to talk to you separately about TAPS...

Albert Cabellos: 

I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you can find some comments inline:

I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a use-case. CLOSED

 specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead of develop, etc)

'for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be too generic and not realizable. CLOSED

 why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in addition'. CLOSED

 why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding below you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I suggest rewriting to "The problem space is:" CLOSED

 

 

Comments on the 08/06/2017 Version 

 

Yingzhen Qu:

About “- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)”, I remember one of the comments we got before was to further limit the scope of metadata to just a couple of categories, for example type. CLOSED

 

Michael Menth : 

Clarity has improved.

 

Tom Herbert/Diego Lopez:

When it comes to these concerns I’d strongly recommend to have a look at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/)

CLOSED - The charter now mentions to collaborate with other group for relevant work.

 

 

Tom Herbert:

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses" CLOSED with modifications from Albert, Dino, Uma

 

Alex Clemm: 

If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well – by means of example, mappings between identifiers.  CLOSED

 

 

 

Comments on the 08/02/201 Version 

 

-  Michael Menth: Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity. CLOSED

- Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition. CLOSED

- Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version. CLOSED

-Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. CLOSED

- Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. 

- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed.CLOSED

 

 




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--------------4DF2E2D1CD9F3F9A7B09D63D-- From nobody Mon Aug 21 17:38:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A766D1323A2 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_BL=0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_L3=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rgX7y7M6Juee for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky1.263xmail.com (lucky1.263xmail.com [211.157.147.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1FA1132153 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from langao?cdi.cn (unknown [192.168.165.141]) by lucky1.263xmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC9511D1 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:38:34 +0800 (CST) X-263anti-spam: KSV:0;BIG:0;Original-ABS:0; X-MAIL-GRAY: 0 X-MAIL-DELIVERY: 1 X-KSVirus-check: 0 X-ADDR-CHECKED: 0 X-ABS-CHECKED: 0 X-ANTISPAM-LEVEL: 2 Received: from smtp.263.net (va-smtp01.263.net [54.88.144.211]) by smtp.263.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431973DD for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:38:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail-oi0-f43.google.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.263.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27089F60F for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:38:27 +0800 (CST) X-RL-SENDER: langao@cdi.cn X-FST-TO: ideas@ietf.org X-SENDER-IP: 209.85.218.43 X-LOGIN-NAME: langao@cdi.cn X-UNIQUE-TAG: X-ATTACHMENT-NUM: 0 X-SENDER: langao@cdi.cn X-DNS-TYPE: 0 Received: from mail-oi0-f43.google.com (unknown [209.85.218.43]) by smtp.263.net (Postfix) whith ESMTP id 11292MKGU5O; Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:38:27 +0800 (CST) Received: by mail-oi0-f43.google.com with SMTP id f11so171144750oic.0 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5glO0aD1xgcNRCAmnio5J8kRaDV3yVto5Qw4E6LhTgy2EGrRDrs wlinkttRAVtPWW6bZvYM+0WL2WnDyg== X-Received: by 10.202.55.7 with SMTP id e7mr25773473oia.220.1503362304490; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:38:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.36.203 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 17:38:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56f471f2-4512-15ab-dcdd-b130998ee835@gmail.com> References: <56f471f2-4512-15ab-dcdd-b130998ee835@gmail.com> From: Lan Gao Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:38:24 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Padma Pillay-Esnault , ideas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113cea2620d0af05574cd0dc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ideas] IDEAS Proposed Charter 08/20/2017 Version - Final Round X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 00:38:45 -0000 --001a113cea2620d0af05574cd0dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Padma for hard work co-coordinating the revisions of the charter. This version of the Charter looks good. Everyone did a great job contributing revisions. Regards, Lan Gao On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:09 AM, Sam Sun wrote: > Padma, > > Thanks for putting everything together and the leadership to make this > happen. The updated charter looks good! > > I suggest we put a closure on this after Thursday so that we can start > moving forward with the WG. > > All the best, > Sam > > On 8/21/17 2:02 AM, Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote: > > Dear IDEAS, > > > > Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list > and off the list. The version below has integrated all the comments, inpu= ts > as well as discussions on the alias for the last 2 weeks. For your > reference, a log of comments can be found at the end of this email. > > > *Please send your comments by **Thursday 08/24/2017 latest for t**his > final round for feedback.* > > > > *IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D* > > *Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter* > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation > are increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay networking for > virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. > Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allow= s > nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for > packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by > identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, > additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to addre= ss > new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service an= d > mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery. Identifier-locator > protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic > association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynam= ic > multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries. > > > > End users require greater privacy for their networking information and > protection from outside threats, and operators demand greater operational > efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking applications and > services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points > over their identity address, location address, and data coupled with > greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks. > > > > To this end, the working group shall: > > - Specify and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that provide = a > solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers t= o > locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as > network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses > > - Introduce the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms > that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new > functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity > while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring > that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed on= ly > on a need-to-know basis. > > > > The problem space is: > > > > - Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common > infrastructure is a barrier for the application of consistent basic > networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that > apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduc= es > operational and deployment complexity. > > > > - Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal > information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way = to > prevent the look up of an identifier with some user-defined policy or fin= er > grain rules. > > > > - Privacy: The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable > for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, > when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flow= s > can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems. The endpoint > communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining > their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers > and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic an= d > conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers. > > > > The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to > specify a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and > provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the framewor= k > providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS). > > > > The working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes > needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled > protocols. > > > > Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the > modular framework: > > > > - Specify a mapping system supporting the mapping combinations as needed > > - Definition of primitives for identifier-location split protocols to > interact with the framework > > - Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, > multi-homing, ...) > > - Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associate= d > identifiers. > > - Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, > update of information for identifiers..) > > - Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability t= o > look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for > particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6) > > - Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing e.g. type) > > - Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate. > > > > The IDEAS WG will collaborate with LISP WG and HIP WG to extend their > control planes if needed to meet the framework requirements. The WG will > also collaborate with other WG for any other relevant work. Furthermore, > the WG will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate. > > > > WG deliverables include: > > Generic Identity Services Framework > > Other WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained i= n > a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the > efforts of the Working Group and help new comers: > > - Problem statement > > - Use cases > > - Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution > > *- *Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service > (for GRIDS). > > - Applications of the architecture for use cases > > *- *Threat model document > > > > Milestones > > March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework > > August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework > > December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG > > > > > *Modification Log and Comments* > > > > *Comments on the 08/08/2017 Version * > > *Sam Sun: * > > 1) In the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what i= t > means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols"? > *CLOSED* > 2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? Fo= r > example, > - Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution *CLOSED* > > - Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for > GRIDS). *CLOSED* > > > > *Alex Clemm*: > > This version sounds fine to me. > > > > *Uma Chunduri*: > > Looks fine and the term=E2=80=9D control plane=E2=80=9D can be dropped = from the above > sentence. #1 *CLOSED* > > This list doesn=E2=80=99t capture #1 in the earlier description and IMO t= hat > should be listed too *CLOSED* > > > > *Lan Gao*: > > I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the > chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current docume= nt > only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services > Framework. *CLOSED* > > > > *Bob Moskowitz*: > > Basically I am comfortable with the charter content. It has to be a > amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with > it. Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some > goals tacked to the wall. > > If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general inf= o > which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say). But to pu= t > my fork in it: > "At the same time" ?? what time? The 1st para really does not define a > time. Just drop it and start with "End users ..." "and operators demand" > Don't make them competitative requirements. They just are. *CLOSED* > > "Identity-enabled networks aim to enable' They do? Just drop the "aim > to" and I think it is a stronger, yet valid, statement. *CLOSED* > > For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block. > > *Dino Farinacci*: > > I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over their identity = address, location > address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. *CLOSED* > > > > I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80= =9D appears throughout. > The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate existing locator/ID > split protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefine and deploy a mapping syste= m=E2=80=9D. > *CLOSED* > > > > > - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location > split protocols > This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk to a LISP hos= t solves > nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host has an IPv= 4 > EID? *CLOSED* > > I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make sure > their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. Bu= t > not to make them interoperate. *CLOSED* > > *Shreyasee Mukherjee:* > > Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services > involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - > these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware > IoT queries. *CLOSED* > > > > - In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, > the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an > identifier can be mapped to multiple identifiers , , > =E2=80=A6. This is useful for incorporating hierarchies associated= with the > ontology tree of the information being accessed, as well as for scaling o= f > multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier to large > numbers of network addresses. *CLOSED* > > > > The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of > resolution including identifier to network address =C3=A0 , ide= ntifier > to multiple network addresses =C3=A0 , , =E2=80=A6, = and identifier > to one or more identifiers =C3=A0, , =E2=80=A6. *= REJECTED =E2=80=93 > Email discussion -Too specific but this is implied by the addition above*= . > > > > Generic Identity Services Framework =E2=80=93 should this be defined furt= her in > terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update > protocol, etc.? *REJECTED per comments on alias* > > > > *Di Ma:* > > I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people > fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via > identity/identifier separation. > > Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet. Threat > model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of > future IDEAS security mechanisms. > > I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables *CLOSED* > > > > *D. Raychaudhuri*: > > I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start. My mai= n > comments are: > > (1) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is > necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change o= f > identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted > =E2=80=9Cname certification service=E2=80=9D [cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst= : A Robust and Trustworthy > Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 201= 2] > in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. > =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator = Mappings > in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS 2012] > > (2) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support > multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. > recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single > locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc. We have found the > recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling > and new service creation. *CLOSED* > > (3) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in = a > bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol > definitions to be included in the spec. > > *REJECTED by email discussion* > > *Bob M.*: You really don't want a starting charter this specific. You > can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a sor= e > item in the IETF. Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and > capablities, not APIs. Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try > and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup. > > > (4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80=99s scope is intention= ally > limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could > be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific > identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS > infrastructure. > > *Bob M.*:This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a > charter revision. I need to talk to you separately about TAPS... > > *Albert Cabellos: * > > I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you can > find some comments inline: > > I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a > use-case. *CLOSED* > > specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead of > develop, etc) > > 'for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all' might be too generi= c > and not realizable. *CLOSED* > > why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in > addition'. *CLOSED* > > why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding below > you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I suggest > rewriting to "The problem space is:" *CLOSED* > > > > > > *Comments on the 08/06/2017 Version * > > > > *Yingzhen Qu:* > > About =E2=80=9C- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing= )=E2=80=9D, I > remember one of the comments we got before was to further limit the scope > of metadata to just a couple of categories, for example type. *CLOSED* > > > > *Michael Menth* : > > Clarity has improved. > > > > *Tom Herbert/Diego Lopez*: > > When it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend to have a = look at > how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within the > ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/abfab/) > > *CLOSED* - The charter now mentions to collaborate with other group for > relevant work. > > > > > > *Tom Herbert*: > > I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common > mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about > something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plan= e, > and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locato= r > protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well as network > virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses" *CLOSED > with modifications from Albert, Dino, Uma* > > > > *Alex Clemm*: > > If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be > useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means= of > example, mappings between identifiers. *CLOSED* > > > > > > > > *Comments on the 08/02/201 Version * > > > > - *Michael Menth:* Michael, please let us know if this revision address > some of your comments on clarity. *CLOSED* > > - *Alex Clemm*. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your > addition. *CLOSED* > > - *Tom Herbert*. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this > version. *CLOSED* > > -*Tom and Alex*, this version include specific working that the framework > is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the > basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new > identity concept and functionalities. *CLOSED* > > - *Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri*. Georgios, Uma, there is still an > ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough t= o > accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework. > > - *Uma Chundhuri*. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the > inter-grids aspect if needed.*CLOSED* > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing listIdeas@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ide= as > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > > --001a113cea2620d0af05574cd0dc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Padma for hard work co-coordinating the revisions o= f the charter. This version of the Charter looks good. Everyone did a great= job contributing revisions.

Regards,

Lan Gao

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:09 AM, Sam Sun <sam.sun.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Padma,

Thanks for putting everything together and the leadership to make this happen. The updated charter looks good!

I suggest we put a closure on this after Thursday so that we can start moving forward with the WG.

All the best,
Sam


On 8/21/17 2:02 AM,= Padma Pillay-Esnault wrote:

Dear IDEAS,

=C2=A0

Thanks to everyone who sent their comments and feedback both on the list and off the list.=C2=A0The version below has integrated all the comments, inputs as=C2=A0well as discussions on the alias f= or the last 2 weeks. For your reference, a log of comments can be found at the end of this email.


Please send your comments by=C2=A0Thursday 08/24/2017 latest for t<= /b>his final=C2=A0round for feedback.



IDEAS: =E2=80=9CIDentity EnAbled networkS=E2=80=9D<= /font>

Version 8/20/2017 - Proposed Charter

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Ne= twork solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are increasingly considered to support mobility,=C2=A0overlay networking for virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. Identifier-locator separation protocols require infrastructure that allows nodes to discover the network topological location(s) of its peer(s) for packet delivery. A common infrastructure and protocol could be used by identifier/locator protocols as well as network virtualization. However, additional infrastructure and new protocol extensions are needed to address new requirements that go well beyond the traditional discovery service and mapping of identifier-to-location for packet delivery.=C2=A0Identifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

En= d users require greater privacy for their networking information and protection from outside threats,=C2=A0and=C2=A0operators demand greate= r operational efficiency. Identity-enabled networks enable networking applications and services that provide a high degree of privacy and control of end points over their identity address, location address, and data coupled with greater inherent security than provided by today=E2=80=99s networks= . =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

To this end, the working group shall:

-= =C2=A0Specify=C2=A0and deploy a mapping system, and related protocol that provide a solution for existing identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators as well other new mapping combinations as needed, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses

-= =C2=A0Introduce=C2=A0the concept of identity-identifier split and new mechanisms that let endpoints dynamically change identifiers. These new functionalities may, for example, facilitate anonymity through obscurity while preventing security issues that might result from abuse, ensuring that information about actual endpoints and their location is revealed only on a need-to-know basis.

= =C2=A0

Th= e=C2=A0problem space=C2=A0is:

= =C2=A0

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of consistent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as identifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.

= =C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identifier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, there is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user-defined policy or finer grain rules.=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public identifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to specific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoi= nt communications should be able to change their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies. The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and conceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

= =C2=A0

Th= e Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group is chartered to specify=C2=A0a framework that can be used by identifier-based protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the framework providing the set of services as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).=

= =C2=A0

Th= e working group will identify gaps and make recommendations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and identifier-enabled protocols.

= =C2=A0

Sp= ecifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on these areas for the modular framework:

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Specify a mapping system supporting the mapping combinations as needed

-= =C2=A0Definition of primitives=C2=A0for=C2=A0identifier-location split = protocols=C2=A0to interact with the framework

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. discovery, pub/sub, multi-homing, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identities and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. access to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking policies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwarding traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing e.g. type)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropriate.=

= =C2=A0

Th= e IDEAS WG will collaborate with LISP=C2=A0WG and=C2=A0HIP=C2=A0WG to extend their control planes if needed to meet the framework requirements.=C2=A0=C2=A0The WG will also collaborate with other WG for any other relevant work.=C2=A0Furthermore, the WG=C2=A0will try to reuse technologies already develope= d when appropriate.

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Ge= neric Identity Services Framework

Ot= her WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

Th= ese documents may not necessarily be published, but may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution

-=C2=A0Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS).=

- Applications of the architecture for use cases=

-=C2=A0Threat model document=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Mi= lestones

Ma= rch 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity Services framework

Au= gust 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services framework=

De= cember 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framework draft to the IESG

=C2=A0


Modification Log and Comments

=C2=A0

Comments on the 08/08/2017 Version=C2=A0

Sam Sun:

1) In the first item in "the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on...", what it means by "... interworking with identifier-location split protocols"? CLOSED
2) In the deliverables, could we include some of chartered tasks here? For example,
- Requirements for identifier/locator mapping and resolution CLOSED

-= =C2=A0Requirements for identity authentication and authorization service (for GRIDS).=C2=A0CLOSED

=C2=A0

Alex Clemm:=C2=A0

Th= is version sounds fine to me.

=C2=A0

Uma Chunduri:=C2=A0

Lo= oks fine and the term=E2=80=9D control plane=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=C2= =A0 can be dropped from the above sentence.=C2=A0 #1 =C2=A0CLOSED<= /p>

Th= is list doesn=E2=80=99t capture #1 in the earlier description = and IMO that should be listed too CLOSED

=C2=A0

Lan Gao:

I agree with Sam. Specific chartered tasks or a statement referencing the chartered tasks should be added to the Deliverables as the current document only implies that they will be met by the Generic Identity Services Framework.=C2=A0CLOSED

=C2=A0

Bob Moskowitz:=C2=A0

Ba= sically I am comfortable with the charter content.=C2=A0 It has to = be a amalgam of different approaches so no one can be completely on board with it.=C2=A0 Really that proof will be in the output; we have to start with some goals tacked to the wall.

If I would change anything it is in the 2nd para, and that is general info which can be wordsmithed til the cows come home (as they say).=C2=A0 But to put my fork in it:
"At the same time"=C2=A0 ?? what time?=C2=A0 The = 1st para really does not define a time.=C2=A0 Just drop it and start with "= End users ..." "and operators demand"=C2=A0 Don't make them = competitative requirements.=C2=A0 They just are. CLOSED

"Identity-enabled networks aim to enable'=C2=A0 Th= ey do?=C2=A0 Just drop the "aim to" and I think it is a stronger, yet va= lid, statement. CLOSED

For me, the rest can stand to get us off the starting block.

Dino Farinacci:

I would add =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 control of end points over the= ir identity address, location address, and data coupled with =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. CLOSE= D

= =C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t know why there the use of the word =E2=80=9Cc= ommon=E2=80=9D appears throughout. The charter really shouldn't intend to interoperate existin= g locator/ID split protocols so I would say =E2=80=9Cdefine and deploy a mappi= ng system=E2=80=9D. CLOSED

= =C2=A0

> - Definition of primitives for interworking with identifier-location split protocols
This isn=E2=80=99t useful to anyone. Having a HIP host talk= to a LISP host solves nothing. It just creates complexity. And what if the LISP host has an IPv4 EID? CLOSED

I think the IDEAS WG should work with these working groups to make sure their control planes are extended to meet the requirements from IDEAS. But not to make them interoperate. CLOSED

Shreyasee Mukherjee:=C2=A0

Id= entifier-locator protocols are also useful for additional services involving dynamic association of a name to a set of network addresses - these include dynamic multicast, cloud service anycast and context-aware IoT queries.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0CLOSED

=C2=A0

-= =C2=A0 In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier <IDf> can be mapped to multiple identifiers <IDf1>, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>.=C2=A0 This is useful f= or incorporating hierarchies associated with the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as well as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier to large numbers of network addresses. CLOSED

=C2=A0

Th= e API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including identifier to network address <IDf>=C2=A0=C3=A0=C2=A0<NA>, identifier to multiple network addresses <IDf>=C2=A0=C3=A0=C2=A0<NA1>, <NA2>, =E2=80=A6<NAn>, and identifier to one or= more identifiers=C2=A0<IDf>=C2=A0=C3=A0<IDf1>, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>. REJECTED =E2=80=93 = Email discussion -Too specific but this is implied by the addition above.

=C2=A0

Ge= neric Identity Services Framework=C2=A0=E2=80=93 should this be d= efined further in terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update protocol, etc.? REJECTED per comments on alias

=C2=A0

Di Ma:

I think prospects described in IDEAS charter are promising since people fancy anonymity in connecting to different network environments, via identity/identifier separation.

= =C2=A0Yet by doing so, we would introduce new risk into the Internet.=C2=A0 Threat model is therefore indispensable to provide a basis for the design of future IDEAS security mechanisms.

= =C2=A0I suggest a threat model document as one of WG deliverables CLOSED

= =C2=A0

D. Raychaudhuri:=C2=A0

I reviewed the charter document and feel that it is a good start.=C2=A0 My main comments are:

(1= ) I agree with the concept of an identity-identifier split, which is necessary for an important set of applications requiring dynamic change of identifier. Realizing this will require something similar to a trusted =E2=80=9Cn= ame certification service=E2=80=9D =C2=A0[cf. =E2=80=9CMobilityFirst: A Robust and Trustworthy Mobility-Centric Architecture for the Future Internet, ACM MC2R, July 2012] in addition to a dynamic name-to-locator mapping/resolution service [cf. =E2=80=9DDMap: A Shared Hosting Scheme for Dynamic Identifier to Locator Mappings in the Global Internet=E2=80=9D, ICDCS 2012]

(2= ) A key requirement for the mapping service is the ability to support multiple types of resolution including identifier to identifier (i.e. recursive), identifier to group of identifiers, identifier to single locator, identifier to a list of locators, etc.=C2=A0 We have found the recursive identifier resolution capability to be very useful for scaling and new service creation.=C2=A0 CLOSED

(3= ) The final output of the WG at the end of the doc should be filled in a bit further in terms of specific APIs and query/response/update protocol definitions to be included in the spec.=C2=A0<= /font>

REJECTED by email discussion

Bob M.: You really don't want a starting charter this specific.=C2=A0 You can have wording about working on an API, but APIs have always been a sore item in the IETF.=C2= =A0 Also this is why I2NSF talks about Interfaces and capablities, not APIs.=C2= =A0 Leave the specitivity for the workgroup, not try and get the post-BOF to complete the work to start the workgroup.

(4) While I realize that the current charter=E2=80=99s scop= e is intentionally limited to defining general-purpose control plane support, the spec could be of greater value by defining or linking one or more specific identifier-based routing (data plane) protocols compatible with the IDEAS infrastructure.=C2=A0

Bob M.:This comes out in the workgroup, and if necessary then you do a charter revision.=C2=A0 I need to talk to you separately about TAPS...

Albert Cabellos:=C2=A0

I agree -in general- with the charter in its current form, below you can find some comments inline:

I suggest also mentioning overlay networking for virtualization as a use-case. CLOSED

= =C2=A0specify instead of define? (same across the charter, specify instead of develop, etc)

&#= 39;for *existing* identifier/locator mapping' --> 'all&= #39; might be too generic and not realizable. CLOSED

= =C2=A0why 'in addition'? The itemization already implicitly states: 'in addition'.=C2=A0CLOSED

= =C2=A0why 'some examples'? This looks very vague. From my understanding below you have a solid and complete definition of the problem state. I suggest rewriting to "The problem space is:" CLOSED

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Comments on the 08/06/2017 Version=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yingzhen Qu:

Ab= out =E2=80=9C- Identity and Identifier Metadata (fixed or slow changing)=E2=80=9D, I remember one of the comments we got before was to further limit the scope of metadata to just a couple of categories, for example type. CLOSED

=C2=A0

Michael Menth :=C2=A0

Cl= arity has improved.

=C2=A0

Tom Herbert/Diego Lopez:

Wh= en it comes to these concerns I=E2=80=99d strongly recommend t= o have a look at how identity attributes were exchanged and trust established within the ABFAB framework (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/<= wbr>abfab/)

CLOSED - The charter now mentions to collaborate with other group for relevant work.

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Tom Herbert:

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical addresses" CLOSED with modifications from Albert, Dino, Uma

=C2=A0

Alex Clemm:=C2=A0

If we want to have a more specific list of supported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by m= eans of example, mappings between identifiers.=C2=A0 CLOSED

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Comments on the 08/02/201 Version=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- =C2=A0Michael Menth: Michael, please let us know if this revision address some of your comments on clarity. CLOSED

- = Alex Clemm. Alex , please chime on the revision regarding your addition.=C2=A0CLOSED<= /span>

- = Tom Herbert. Tom, Some of your suggestions are incorporated in this version. CLOSED

-<= b>Tom and Alex, this version include specific working that the framework is modular. The set of areas to be covered has been reordered to put the basic identifier protocol common infrastructure first and then the new identity concept and functionalities. CLOSED

- = Georgios Karagiannis, Uma Chundhuri. Georgios, Uma, there is still an ongoing discussion about the framework. This version is flexible enough to accommodate the work to be done on defining the framework.=C2=A0

- Uma Chundhuri. Uma, the pub/sub reference should cover the inter-grids aspect if needed.CLOSED

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0




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-=C2=A0 In addition to resolving an identifier to a set of network addresses, the mapping system should be able to support a recursive mode in which an identifier <IDf> can be mapped to multiple identifiers <IDf1>, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>.=C2=A0 This i= s useful for incorporating hierarchies associated with the ontology tree of the information being accessed, as wel= l as for scaling of multicast services involving mapping of a single identifier = to large numbers of network addresses.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Some examples of the problem space are:

- Common infrastructure and primitives: The lack of = a common infrastructure is a barrier for the application of common and cons= istent basic networking policies. Likewise, mapping services and infrastructure that apply to identity-identifier as well as i= dentifier-locator mappings reduces operational and deployment complexity.= =C2=A0The API should be sufficiently general to enable various modes of resolution including identifier to network address = <IDf> =C3=A0<= span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial"> <NA>, identifier to= multiple network addresses <IDf> =C3=A0 <NA1>, &= lt;NA2>, =E2=80=A6<NAn>, and identifier to one or more identifiers <IDf> =C3=A0 <IDf1= >, <IDf2>, =E2=80=A6<IDfn>.

=C2=A0

- Access control: Unrestricted look up on an identif= ier may reveal information such as the locator to eavesdroppers. Today, the= re is no way to prevent the look up of an identifier with some user defined policy or finer grain rules.

=C2=A0

- Privacy:=C2=A0 The use of long-lived and public id= entifiers may be desirable for looking up a peer, however it causes privacy= issues as well. Indeed, when identifier-location pairs can be looked up without restriction, flows can be pinned by anybody to sp= ecific end systems.=C2=A0 The endpoint communications should be able to cha= nge their identifier while retaining their identity and associated policies= . The use of temporary identifiers and access control on lookups should help discourage undesired traffic and con= ceal sensitive network information of end devices to eavesdroppers.

=C2=A0

The Identity Enabled Networks (IDEAS) working group = is chartered to develop a common framework that can be used by identifier-b= ased protocols and provides services to address their requirements. We refer to the common framework providing the set of servic= es as Generic Identity Services (GRIDS).

=C2=A0

The working group will identify gaps and make recomm= endations on changes needed for interactions between the framework and iden= tifier-enabled protocols.

=C2=A0

Specifically, the IDEAS WG is chartered to work on t= hese areas for the modular framework:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

- Definition of primitives for interworking with ide= ntifier-location split protocols

- Identifier/locator mapping and resolution (e.g. di= scovery, pub/sub, multihoming, ...)

- Registration and lifecycle management of identitie= s and their associated identifiers.

- Identity authentication and authorization (e.g. ac= cess to framework, update of information for identifiers..)

- Definition and enforcement of basic networking pol= icies (e.g. ability to look up an identifier-locator pair, permit forwardin= g traffic for particular endpoints on a per-identity basis=E2=80=A6)

- Identity and Identifier Metadata (only fixed or sl= ow changing, e.g. type)

- Management aspects and Data Models where appropria= te.

=C2=A0

The IDEAS WG will collaborate with other Working Gro= ups to ensure interoperability with LISP, HIP, ILA and other relevant work.= Furthermore, it will try to reuse technologies already developed when appropriate.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

WG deliverables include:

Generic Identity Services Framework=C2=A0<= /u>=E2=80=93 should this be defined further in terms of API, syntax/semantics, mapping service query/response/update protocol, etc.= ?

=C2=A0

WG sustaining/informational documents may include:

These documents may not necessarily be published, bu= t may be maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wik= i to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:

- Problem statement

- Use cases

- Requirements

- Applications of the architecture for use cases<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Milestones

March 2018 Adopt WG draft for the Generic Identity S= ervices framework

August 2018 WGLC for the Generic Identity Services f= ramework

December 2018 Send Generic Identity Services framewo= rk draft to the IESG

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Padmadevi Pillay Esn= ault <padma@huawei.com> wrote= :

Sure

=C2=A0

However, been wondering if it is best not to= be so specific in the charter.

Thoughts?

=C2=A0

Padma

=C2=A0

From: Alexander Clemm
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 10:42 AM
To: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pill= ay-Esnault


Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

OK.

=C2=A0

If we want to have a more specific list of s= upported mappings, it may be useful to mention some of those other mappings as well =E2=80=93 by means of example, mappings betwe= en identifiers.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Padmadevi Pillay Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:52 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org; Padma Pill= ay-Esnault <padma.ietf@gmail.com= >
Subject: RE: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Alex

=C2=A0

My understanding is that Tom did NOT ask for= removing of identity concept.

He asked to make the section on common infra= structure clearer with this sentence.

=C2=A0

I agree with you that the mappings should no= t be restricted to 1->n

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:idea= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Padma Pillay-Esnault; Tom Herbert
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

I am not sure we should restrict ourselves t= o mapping between identifiers and locators.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I would at a minimum want to include mapping= s between identifiers, and between identifiers and (for lack of a better term) groupings of identifiers.

=C2=A0

If we take out the identity concept, we shou= ld also rename the WG. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Ideas [mailto:id= eas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Padma Pillay-Esnault
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:28 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbe= rtland.com>
Cc: ideas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Your Input requested: Charter Proposal New Vers= ion

=C2=A0

Hi Tom

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

>
> To this end, the working group shall:
>
> - define a framework for the development of an identifier/locator mapp= ing
> system that provides a common solution for all identifier/locator mapp= ing
> protocols and network virtualization.
>

Padma,

I think this statement could be stronger and express that the common
mapping system and protocols are expected output from WG. How about
something like: "Define and develop a common mapping system, control plane, and related protocol that provide a common solution for
identifier/locator protocols that map identifiers to locators, as well
as network virtualization protocols that map virtual to physical
addresses"

=C2=A0

Fine with me.

=C2=A0

Let's poll the list for consensus on this.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Padma

=C2=A0

Tom=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0