From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 1 01:07:36 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA22048 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 01:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 03:46:22 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 03:46:18 +0100 Received: from cnpsm.condenast.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 03:46:25 +0100 Received: from swoon.condenast.com (swoon [206.136.72.12]) by cnpsm.condenast.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA24399; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:48:44 -0400 (EDT) From: EmilyAlan@angelfire.com Received: from angelfire.com by swoon.condenast.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA03298; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:58:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:58:50 -0400 Message-Id: <200009010258.WAA03298@swoon.condenast.com> Reply-To: EmilyAlan@angelfire.com To: EmilyAlan@angelfire.com Subject: Call Worldwide at NO COST* Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk To take advantage of the New Internet Age, you need to communicate WORLDWIDE! 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Please remember to include the addresses you want removed. From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 1 18:31:01 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA22042 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 18:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:55:49 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:55:45 +0100 Received: from masstransit.ior.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:55:48 +0100 Received: (qmail 27999 invoked by uid 80); 1 Sep 2000 19:55:40 -0000 Received: from pmd-45.ior.com (HELO Recruiter2) (@206.107.145.237) by mail.spkol.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2000 19:55:40 -0000 Message-ID: <010701c0144d$fe3509e0$770105c0@Spokane> From: Thane Meads To: idmr Subject: My greetings to you... Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:51:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FE_01C01413.4ED3A040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FE_01C01413.4ED3A040 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00FF_01C01413.4ED3A040" ------=_NextPart_001_00FF_01C01413.4ED3A040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- 720 West Boone, Suite 104 Spokane, WA 99201 (800) 848-8531 (509) 462-2109 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- My Dear Colleague:=20 My name is Thane L. Meads I am a Recruiter for the Manpower Professional = office in Spokane, WA, USA. We recruit scientists, engineers, clinicians = and other technical specialists in a wide variety of disciplines and for = clients in virtually any industry. I want to make you aware of our = company in case you or your organization needs to hire technical staff = and I also want to ask you for referrals of any of your colleagues who = you know of who might be interested in new opportunities. Current = openings include, but are not limited to...=20 MPLS, Diffserv., QoS, IP routing software guru (High speed switching)=20 Senior ASIC Engineer (High speed Internet development)=20 Seasoned Hardware Engineer with embedded, digital/analog, and PCB = experience I welcome you or any of your colleagues to learn more about our company, = our services or these and other positions. For additional information = simply write back. Thank you, Thane Meads ------=_NextPart_001_00FF_01C01413.4ED3A040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
3D""
720 West Boone, Suite = 104
Spokane, WA = 99201
(800) = 848-8531
(509) = 462-2109
 
 

My Dear Colleague:

My name is Thane L. Meads I am a Recruiter for the Manpower = Professional=20 office in Spokane, WA, USA. We recruit scientists, engineers, clinicians = and=20 other technical specialists in a wide variety of disciplines and for = clients in=20 virtually any industry. I want to make you aware of our company in case = you or=20 your organization needs to hire technical staff and I also want to ask = you for=20 referrals of any of your colleagues who you know of who might be = interested in=20 new opportunities. Current openings include, but are not limited to... =

MPLS, Diffserv., QoS, IP routing software guru (High speed switching) =

Senior ASIC Engineer (High speed Internet development)

Seasoned Hardware Engineer with embedded, digital/analog, and PCB=20 experience

I welcome you or any of your colleagues to learn more about our = company, our=20 services or these and other positions. For additional information simply = write=20 back.

Thank you,

Thane Meads

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To remove yourself from this mailing list click here: From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Mon Sep 11 23:15:47 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA13098 for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:58:46 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:58:26 +0100 Received: from sdn-ar-002mnminnP321.dialsprint.net by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:58:11 +0100 From: ybol Subject: ADV: Stock Profile - Your Bank Online Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:22:37 Message-Id: <514.498634.240195@www.fasttrec.com> Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Apparently-To: idmr-pp Hello, to be removed from out mailing list, please visit http://www.stockprofile2000.net/remove.html STOCK PROFILE 2000 SEPTEMBER STOCK PROFILE YourBankOnline - Listed on the OTC Bulletin Board Trading Symbol: YBOL Recent Share Price: $1.38 52 Week Range: $0.56-$6 Shares Outstanding: 12 Mil For full company information please visit http://www.stockprofile2000.net **** News Flash **** YourBankOnline Declares Dividend SEATTLE, Aug. 14 -- YourBankOnline (OTC Bulletin Board: YBOL) announced today that effective September 15, 2000 all share holders of record will receive a dividend representing a proportionate number of shares in the company's wholly owned subsidiary, Contractors Directory, Inc. 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Once again, for full company information please visit http://www.stockprofile2000.net Disclaimer: This material is being provided by StockProfile2000, an electronic newsletter paid by the issuer for publishing the information contained in this report. Morse Financial has paid a consideration of 10,000 free trading shares of common stock of Your Bank Online to StockProfile2000 as payment for the publication of the information contained in this report. StockProfile2000 and its affiliates have agreed not to sell the common stock received as payment for its services until September 12, 2000, which date is 15 days from the initial dissemination of this report. After such date, StockProfile2000 may sell such shares in spite of any historical, current or future report or information conveyed about such securities. Because StockProfile2000 is paid for its services, there is an inherent conflict of interest in StockProfile2000's statements and opinions and such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only, and not to be construed as an offer to sell or solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Please be advised that Your Bank Online is not offering securities for sale to persons in California or Minnesota. StockProfile2000 makes no representation or warranty relating to the validity of the facts presented nor does StockProfile2000 represent or warrant that all material facts necessary to make an investment decision are presented above. All statements of opinions are those of StockProfile2000. 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Investment in the companies reviewed is speculative and extremely high-risk and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in Your Bank Online Projections of future financial results are provided solely by Your Bank Online No assurances are given that Your Bank Online will achieve said projections. This publication contains forward-looking statements that are subject to risk and uncertainties that could cause results to differ materially from those set forth in the forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements represent the judgment of Your Bank Online as of the date of this publication. The Company disclaims any intent or obligation to update these forward-looking statements. From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 14 08:35:05 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA09763 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:12:46 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:12:41 +0100 Received: from smtp1.cluster.oleane.net by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:12:51 +0100 Received: from oleane (dyn-1-1-077.Vin.dialup.oleane.fr [195.25.4.77]) by smtp1.cluster.oleane.net with SMTP id LAA41411 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:13:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004401c01e2b$dc973d20$0401a8c0@oleane.com> From: Peter Lewis To: idmr Subject: IP over DWDM 2000 international conference Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:12:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C01E3C.9FDCE9A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C01E3C.9FDCE9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IP over DWDM 2000 international conference, Paris 27-30 November : This event aims at presenting an up-to-date state of the art in the = design of new Internet network architectures. It will be a unique = opportunity for researchers, network operators and service providers = from both the IP world and the optical networking world to discuss the = potentialities of all these promising perspectives.=20 http://www.upperside.fr/badwdm.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C01E3C.9FDCE9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IP over DWDM 2000 international conference, Paris 27-30 November = :
 
This event aims at presenting an up-to-date state of the art in the = design=20 of new Internet network architectures. It will be a unique opportunity = for=20 researchers, network operators and service providers from both the IP = world and=20 the optical networking world to discuss the potentialities of all these=20 promising perspectives.
 
http://www.upperside.fr/badwd= m.htm
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C01E3C.9FDCE9A0-- From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 14 11:56:33 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA17665 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:21:02 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:20:54 +0100 Received: from mail.eunet.ch by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:20:50 +0100 Received: from oettinger.davidoff.ch ([195.49.110.243]) by mail.kpnqwest.ch (8.9.3/1.34) via ESMTP id NAA16064 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:20:44 GMT env-from (sfsddfd@sun10.kaposvar.pate.hu) Received: from mail.mindspring.com by oettinger.davidoff.ch via SMTP id smtp\t9eegp31.in; 14 Sep 2000 14:52:00 +0200 From: sfsddfd To: idmr Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:17:45 Message-Id: <316.867225.36608@mail.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GET YOUR OWN 100 MEG WEBSITE FOR ONLY $11.95 PER MONTH TODAY! STOP PAYING $19.95 or more TODAY for your web site, WHEN YOU CAN GET ONE FOR ONLY $11.95 PER MONTH! DO YOU ALREADY HAVE A WEBSITE? ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TRANSFER THE DOMAIN TO OUR SERVERS AND UPLOAD YOUR DATA AND YOU ARE READY TO GO! YOUR NEW WEB SPACE CAN BE CREATED INSTANTLY WITH JUST A SIMPLE PHONE CALL TO OUR OFFICE. YOU CAN CHANGE THE DESIGN OF YOUR SITE AS MUCH AS YOU WANT with no extra charge! UNLIMITED TRAFFIC -- no extra charge! FRONT PAGE EXTENSIONS are FULLY SUPPORTED. A SET UP FEE OF $40.00 APPLIES for FIRST TIME CUSTOMERS. ALL FEES PREPAID IN ADVANCE FOR THE YEAR PLUS A $40.00 SET UP CHARGE. FOR DETAILS CALL 1 888 248 0765 Webhosting International From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Tue Sep 19 14:57:40 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk ([128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA22683 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:05:59 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:05:55 +0100 Received: from masstransit.ior.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:06:01 +0100 Received: (qmail 12432 invoked by uid 80); 19 Sep 2000 16:05:56 -0000 Received: from pmd-03.ior.com (HELO Recruiter2) (@206.107.145.195) by mail.spkol.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 2000 16:05:56 -0000 Message-ID: <010801c02253$a3f2c440$770105c0@Spokane> From: Thane Meads To: idmr Subject: Hearing back Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:06:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0104_01C02218.F6769560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01C02218.F6769560 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0105_01C02218.F6769560" ------=_NextPart_001_0105_01C02218.F6769560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- 720 West Boone, Suite 104 Spokane, WA 99201 (800) 848-8531 (509) 462-2109 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Kwangil, I have several openings that I am currently working with. The best bet = would be for you to send your CV or resume to me and I can see what = position(s) that you are most qualified for and then send you = information on those openings. I am looking forward to hearing back from you, Thane ------=_NextPart_001_0105_01C02218.F6769560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
3D""
720 West Boone, Suite = 104
Spokane, WA = 99201
(800) = 848-8531
(509) = 462-2109
 
 
Kwangil,
 
I have several openings that I am currently working with.  The = best=20 bet would be for you to send your CV or resume to me and I can see what=20 position(s) that you are most qualified for and then send you = information on=20 those openings.
 
I am looking forward to hearing back from you,
 
Thane
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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Dear Friend, This really works! Have the faith, don't miss this opportunity, get involved also, and it will work for you as it does for us!!!!! Thank you for your time and interest. This email contains the ENTIRE PLAN of how YOU can make $50,000 or more in the next 90 days simply sending email! Seem impossible? Just read on and see how easy this is.... Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting. You will understand once you try it yourself! ********* THE ENTIRE PLAN IS HERE BELOW ********* *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days, please read this program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY!! It does NOT require you to come into contact with people or make or take any telephone calls. Just follow the instructions, and you will make money. This simplified e-mail marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME! E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this virtually free method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello - My name is Johnathon Rourke, I'm from Rhode Island. The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. Two years ago, the corporation I worked for for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn´t seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life. I am writing toshare the experience in hopes that this could change your life FOREVER. FINANCIALLY$$$!!! In mid December, I received this program in my e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work. But as I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn´t send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly. I couldn´t believe my eyes! Here was a MONEY MAKING MACHINE I could start immediately without any debt. Like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL I decided "WHY NOT!?!??" Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don´t need any money for printing to send out the program, and because I also send the product (reports) by e-mail, my only expense is my time. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON´T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car! Please take your time to read this plan, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER$!!! Remember, it won´t work if you don´t try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won´t work and you´ll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! $$ Sincerely, Johnathon Rourke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn´t working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn´t me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don´t have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich." Inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have retired from the program after sending thousands and thousands of programs. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU!! NOW DO IT!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Before you delete this program from your in box, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. $$$ IT WORKS!!! $$$ Jody Jacobs Richmond, VA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HERE´S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$$$$!!!! This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making business. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we sell and deliver a product for EVERY dollar received. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the EASIEST marketing plan anywhere! It is simply order-filling by email! ******************************************************************* The product is informational and instructional material, keys to the secrets for everyone on how to open the doors to the magic world of E- COMMERCE, the information highway, the wave of the future! PLAN SUMMARY: (1) You order the 4 reports listed below ($5 US each.) They come to you by email. (2) Save a copy of this entire letter and put your name after Report #1 and move the other names down. (3) Via the internet, access Yahoo.com or any of the other major search engines to locate hundreds of bulk email service companies (search for "bulk email") and have them send 25,000 - 50,000 emails for you about $49+). (4) Orders will come to you by postal mail - simply email them the Report they ordered. Let me ask you - isn´t this about as easy as it gets? ************************************************************ By the way there are over 50 MILLION email addresses with millions more joining the internet each year so don´t worry about "running out" or "saturation". People are used to seeing and hearing the same advertisements every day on radio/TV. How many times have you received the same pizza flyers on your door? Then one day you are hungry for pizza and you order one. Same thing with this letter. I received this letter many times - then one day I decided it was time to try it. ************************************************************ YOU CAN START TODAY - JUST DO THESE EASY STEPS: STEP #1. ORDER THE FOUR REPORTS Order the four reports shown on the list below (you can´t sell them if you don´t order them). -- For each report, send $5.00 (US) CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! Within a few days you will receive, by e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so you can send them to the 1,000´s of people who will order them from you. STEP #2. ADD YOUR MAILING ADDRESS TO THIS LETTER a. Look below for the listing of the four reports. b. After you´ve ordered the four reports, delete the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you COPY ALL INFORMATION, every name and address, ACCURATELY! STEP #3. SAVE THIS LETTER Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to these instructions. Now you are ready to use this entire email to send by email to prospects. Report #1 will tell you how to download bulk email software and email addresses so you can send it out to thousands of people while you sleep! Remember that 50,000+ new people are joining the internet every month. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing; surely you can afford $20 (US) and initial bulk mailing cost. You obviously already have a computer and an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let´s say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we´ll assume you and all those involved email out only 2,000 programs each. Let´s also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. The response could be much better. Also, many people will email out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. (Why stop at 2000?). But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5% 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That´s 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2: PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let´s say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Look how this small number accumulates to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level--your first 10 send you $5..................................$50 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).............$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1000)........$5,000 4th level--10 members from those 1000 ($5 x 10,000)..$50,000 $$$$$$ THIS TOTALS ----------$55,550 $$$$$$ AMAZING ISN´T IT? Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100´s of participants and many will continue to work this program, sending out programs WITH YOUR NAME ON THEM for years! THINK ABOUT IT! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ People are going to get emails about this plan from you or somebody else and many will work this plan. The question is, don´t you want your name to be on the emails they will send out? * * * DON´T MISS OUT!!! * * * JUST TRY IT ONCE!!! * * * * * SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!! *** YOU´LL BE AMAZED!!!* * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can´t advertise until they receive the report! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ GET STARTED TODAY: PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THE FOUR REPORTS NOW. Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper write: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. REPORT #1 "The Insider´s Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Andrew Skidmore 9379 Alexander Rd Alexander, NY 14005 USA REPORT #2 "The Insider´s Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Lars Pedersen Skejbygaardsvej 7, 1, 10 8240 Risskov Denmark REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: John Cole Werner PO Box 3281 Lihue, HI 96766 REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Zac Majors 2242 E Woodchuck Way Sandy, UT 84093 ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. It is required for this to be a legal business and they need the reports to send out their letters (with your name on them!) -- ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. -- Be patient and persistent with this program - If you follow the instructions exactly - results WILL FOLLOW. $$$$ ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don´t receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2. If you don´t, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. To generate more income, simply send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program, please answer one question. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH YOUR PRESENT INCOME OR JOB? If the answer is no, then please look at the following facts about this super simple MLM program: 1. NO face to face selling, NO meetings, NO inventory! NO Telephone calls, NO big cost to start! NOthing to learn, NO skills needed! (Surely you know how to send email?) 2. No equipment to buy - you already have a computer and internet connection - so you have everything you need to fill orders! 3. You are selling a product which does NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE OR SHIP! (Emailing copies of the reports is FREE!) 4. All of your customers pay you in CA$H! This program will change your LIFE FOREVER!! Look at the potential for you to be able to quit your job and live a life of luxury you could only dream about! Imagine getting out of debt and buying the car and home of your dreams and being able to work a super-high paying leisurely easy business from home! $$$ FINALLY MAKE SOME DREAMS COME TRUE! $$$ ACT NOW! Take your first step toward achieving financial independence. Order the reports and follow the program outlined above-- SUCCESS will be your reward. Thank you for your time and consideration. PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal Agency) at 1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings are highly dependent on your activities and advertising. The information contained on this site and in the report constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this site or report constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The earnings amounts listed on this site and in the report are estimates only. If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington, DC. ================================================ Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Wed Sep 27 04:30:36 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA06582 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 04:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:43:55 +0100 Received: from haig.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:43:51 +0100 Received: from sumomo.oiuw.oiu.ac.jp by haig.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:44:00 +0100 Received: from your (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sumomo.oiuw.oiu.ac.jp (8.9.2/3.7W99032317) with SMTP id OAA10997; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:36:02 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:36:02 +0900 (JST) From: webmaster7@mktgdir.zzn.com Message-Id: <200009270536.OAA10997@sumomo.oiuw.oiu.ac.jp> Reply-To: webmaster7@mktgdir.zzn.com To: webmaster7@mktgdir.zzn.com Subject: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Now Revealed! 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Thank you and have a nice day! ***************************************************** From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 28 06:13:01 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA15949 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:33:12 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:33:07 +0100 Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:33:18 +0100 Received: (qmail 9384 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2000 09:10:16 -0000 Received: from userev01.uk.uudial.com (HELO vaionote) (62.188.17.184) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 2000 09:10:16 -0000 Message-ID: <003f01c0292b$b7e8e540$7196bc3e@vaionote> Reply-To: Tony Ballardie From: Tony Ballardie To: idmr , mboned Cc: maddogs Subject: WAN multicast status Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:08:04 +0100 Organization: Next Generation Networking Ltd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why the idmr and mboned lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? Is it symptomatic of a trend away from WAN multicast (intra-ISP and inter-ISP) in favour of other solutions, or is deployment progress still being made? If not, what are the reasons? There may be many, but which are uppermost? No charging model? No application drivers? Lack of control? Lack of management? Content distribution networks (CDNs) and companies are emerging, together with content providers (the 1-many application driver has arrived). The CDN companies are building virtual topologies, but they seem to be bypassing IP multicast in their designs in favour of application level mcast and other solutions. Again, there may be valid reasons (e.g. explicit mgmt, and control) but what about the longer term, and scalability? So, what's the consensus of IP multicast's predicted role in the WAN? There seems to be very different views in the community on the WAN multicast issue, which ultimately only serves to generate even more inertia on the subject. These groups should be providing a clear message and direction. Tony From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 28 06:13:15 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA15960 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:20:31 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:20:22 +0100 Received: from tnt1a-150.newyork.corecomm.net by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:20:29 +0100 From: cheaprates1234 Subject: from:mark,you filled out a chance to win free phone service Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:10:29 Message-Id: <708.669483.224819@mx.boston.juno.com> Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Apparently-To: idmr-pp This is not a Spam ,I RECIEVEED YOUR EMAIL FROM A POSTED WEB SITE. I went to the web site in your country, I'm the Representative for all calls going to your country.I beleive I can save you alot of money.This letter is intended for people in your country only These rates can only be offered to people out side USA, the rate I give you is a special rate only for You.IF you want conformation about the rates email me and I Will confirm the rate for you. I promise ,I WILL CUT YOUR PHONE BILL IN 1/2 IF YOU JUST GIVE ME A CHANCE!! AT&T,SPRINT and MCI long distance carriers are getting rich off of You and ME ! Please take a look at my rates, I'm sure I will beat their price. There are no monthly or minimum fees or any other hidden costs. You just pay for the time your are on the phone. If your paying less,I will beat what your paying no matter what !!!!!! 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From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 28 11:47:25 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA24245 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:13:29 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:13:25 +0100 Received: from 202.101.38.219 by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:13:35 +0100 Received: from _[38.113.222.84]_by by baosoft.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAB23942; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:13:59 +0800 From: HotStocks@aba.com Message-Id: <200009281313.VAB23942@baosoft.com> Original-Received: from [202.115.118.15] by _[38.113.222.84]_by with SMTP id A6C28E2 Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:55:32 PDT PP-warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line To: idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Subject: Why So Much Smart Money Is So High on Read-Rite !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain, charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:12:49 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Link to article below: http://www.thestreet.com/comment/herbonthestreet/1096812.html Commentary: Herb on TheStreet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why So Much Smart Money Is So High on Read-Rite By Herb Greenberg Senior Columnist 9/26/00 6:30 AM ET Read-Rite(symbol= RDRT) Feeling benevolent, so let's get bullish: Reading right: As I've written in RealMoney.com's Columnist Conversation, the one stock quite a few of my smartest sources are yapping about is Read-Rite (RDRT:Nasdaq - news - boards), the (until very recently) long-forgotten maker of heads for disk drives. The only reason I take it seriously is because of the variety of investors in the stock (from seasoned and savvy traders to some of the most-dogged researchers I know). Most of the sizzle surrounding the company in recent weeks has been tied to the launch of a new division called Scion Photonics, which is developing optical wafers for use in the fiber-optic networks, and which was initially funded with $25 mil from Tyco Ventures and Roger McNamee's Integral Capital, which got a quarter of the company in return. But that's only part of the story: According to Scott Turkel of TCM Partners, who has had his share of hits and misses in this column, and who also happens to be the only on-the-record holder among my sources, the company without Scion is worth about where it trades today, $10.50, or around 1 times sales. "They're completely sold out in their core business in the fourth quarter," he says, "and for the first time, they have pricing power." (One reason is that disk drives are no longer sold mostly for PCs; they've become a staple in storage networks.) Scion, meanwhile, is currently valued at around $100 million (based on Tyco/Integral's 25% stake). "Chump change," says Turkel. That's because the valuation is without even having a marketable product; the first wafer isn't expected to hit the market until next year (which, I should point out, is why some skeptics are, uh, skeptical). But another very sharp manager I know, who is often short stocks, said he saw Read-Rite at several recent conferences, and "I thought the story got better between Salomon Smith Barney and Banc of America, both on the optics side and on their base business. They actually showed a slide of the optical wafer prototype they had made; they said they are sampling product with several customers. They said, Our customers have said, 'If you can make them, we'll buy them.' In other words, the move to optical is less theoretical than it was a month ago." What's more, according to this money manger, who is great at spotting nuances, "They went from saying, 'We'll be break-even cash flow in Q-4 from core businesses,' to saying, 'We are on allocation and we may actually make money in Q4' from the core business.' " Based on that, Turkel (who first bought the stock when it was $4 not long ago) thinks he now owns a $10 stock that is worth $25. P.S.: Read-Rite recently paid the first installment of interest on a convertible bond with cash, rather than stock, which was an alternative. (The cash came from the State of Wisconsin Investment Board, already a large Read-Rite investor.) Translation to some investors: The only reason the state paid with cash is because it thinks the stock is going higher. Or, put another way, Wisconsin, which already owns a 20% stake, wouldn't have sunk in even more cash if it didn't think it would make a decent return. (Did I really write something that glowing? Must be some kind of a market top!) (Voluntary Disclosure: Position- Long) Read-Rite CEO gets into growth By Janet Haney, CBS.MarketWatch.com Last Update: [Timestamp]NewsWatch Latest headlines SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Read-Rite Chief Executive Officer Alan Lowe waxed positive about the future growth prospects for the magnetic-recording-head supplier. Lowe told a crowd of investors and analysts during a presentation at the Banc of America Securities Investment Conference in San Francisco on Thursday that he expects huge unit growth potential for Read-Rite's (RDRT: news, msgs) December quarter, as well as the possibility of profitability. Lowe added that the company is hiring people as fast as it can for its wafer fabrication facility. For the September quarter, the CEO said Read-Rite has a "lot of product to ship in the last 10 days of the quarter." Additionally, Lowe talked about Read-Rite's recent formation of an independent fiber optic company called Scion Photonics which he said hopes to go public. Scion received funding from Tyco, which will make a presentation at the conference later Thursday. Janet Haney is a reporter for CBS.MarketWatch.com. From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Thu Sep 28 18:58:44 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA04523 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:42:31 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:42:28 +0100 Received: from sigma.cisco.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:42:39 +0100 Received: from localhost (jzwiebel@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28845; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200009281941.MAA28845@cisco.com> To: Tony Ballardie cc: idmr , mboned , maddogs , jzwiebel@cisco.com Subject: Re: WAN multicast status In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:08:04 BST." <003f01c0292b$b7e8e540$7196bc3e@vaionote> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:41:12 -0700 From: "John M. Zwiebel" Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk ^ ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why the idmr and mboned ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? Mostly I believe that now is a time for deployment. All the talking is done and folks are actually doing it. The "major" problem though is still the lack of compelling content which can reach a very large audience. Some of the road-blocks are: --DSL -- last hop can't do multicast (ie DSLAM can't replicate a Single packet over different links); --DOCSIS model for cable -- they want access control at layer-2 and there isn't a clear winner at layer-3 or above; --ISP provider topologies -- for example AOL has tunnels across other ISPs and so (like the DSLAM) multicast replication doesn't happen at the last hop; --alternate technologies that don't have anything to do with multicast but which may preclude deployment of multicast in the near term because they are incompatable; --failure of Real and Microsoft to provide an open internet broadcast standard, combined with their need to maintain control over the content to the last hop to be able to realize a profit from sales of their technology. --the knowledge that MSDP can only be a stop-gap protocol for interdomain multicast combined with the lack of progress on BGMP which is viewed as being too complicated. --No way of determining the BW of the link requesting a multicast stream and therefore no way of insuring the link doesn't get overwhelmed. --The perception that video over the internet is never going to be any better than the 2" window you see over Real The "good news" is that there is progress being made in each of these areas, the bad news is that its still going to take too long to get it done, since (for me at least) it should have happened years ago. ^ ^ Content distribution networks (CDNs) and companies are emerging, together ^ with content providers (the 1-many application driver has arrived). The CDN ^ companies are building virtual topologies, but they seem to be bypassing IP ^ multicast in their designs in favour of application level mcast and other ^ solutions. IMHO, these networks provide the layer-4 and above control over the content that a "Republicrat" would require to maintain control over the content distribution. The model of "free TV" doesn't translate that well to an internet that can't put content in every home so advertisers don't know the size of the potential market. The CDN network provides better feedback. However even CDN can and will recognize benefits from multicast and so will deploy it and use it. It would appear to me that they are using what they know now to gain market position. They know about multicast but they don't know that it really works because of all the roadblocks listed above. I like to think of this as a free-speech issue though. :-) layer-3 multicast is for the "masses" where everyone can be their own TV station (50,000 channels and nothing on). Republicrat multicast for the elite who want to control what the masses see. (1984) :^) FWIW, enterprise multicast is doing great. Where do we have to go from here? Well, SSM, being made possible via IGMPv3 is going to be a huge driver for interdomain multicast. It "would be nice" if the web page that advertises the SSM session could be enhanced to record the participants in the group so that it could act as an RP rather than having to depend on the RP to be located in the network. Once that is accomplished, then it "would be nice" if that same RP process could be used to set up an interdomain bi-dir group. Since in bidir PIM the RP can be anywhere, it just becomes a vector end-point. If you could have a "ip pim rp-address 0.0.0.0 bidir" (a very gross generalization of what would be needed) any one sending to a multicast group served by the default RP would send out a "vector" that receivers would join to. All vectors must eventually merge at infinity. Both of these solutions remove the need for MSDP and BGMP, they do present other challenges though that may be more difficult to solve, but they wouldn't have to be solved in the network. Finally, I'd like to see the model change for sending to a multicast group. Allowing a source to dump traffic on to a network and expecting the network to just deal with it does not work in large scale and especially interdomain multicast. For years at every IETF, the beer sessions have always devolved to requiring an RTS/CTS multicast sender capability. No one wants to do it because it doesn't fit the model proposed by Deering. Well, ethernet connectors don't have slide-locks any longer (at least no one buys ones that do) so its time to change the sender model or at least have some kind of an alternative to the current model where anything can get dumped out and it has to be "taken care of". 2 cents. Not reflecting anyone's reality but my own. I'm lost in a lost world of hopes and dreams of interdomain multicast becoming a reality so I can go to the beach. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Zwiebel Phone: 408-526-5303 Cisco Systems Inc. IP Multicast Group From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 19:32:43 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA08194 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:41:02 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:40:42 +0100 Received: from 202.109.244.131 by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:40:37 +0100 Received: from from jaifece. ([274.45.30.4]) by rs5s2.dadacenttera.chua.caimty.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11875 ([192.101.102.137]) by edi.xmec.com.cn (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.1 (Intl)) with SMTP id 2000093003573655:1198 ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:57:36 +0800 Message-ID: <000003194956$00002435$000071b0@from jaifece. 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(International Distributors are Welcome) ================================================== Double click on link below to be excluded from further communication. mailto:exclude6680@uole.com?subject=delete ================================================== From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 19:32:48 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA08205 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:01:42 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:01:37 +0100 Received: from dgesmtp01.wcom.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:01:48 +0100 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42260) id <0G1O0020127M6W@firewall.mcit.com> for idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dgismtp02.wcomnet.com ([166.38.58.142]) by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42260) with ESMTP id <0G1O0019F27MFA@firewall.mcit.com>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by dgismtp02.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42263) id <0G1O00D0127MP4@dgismtp02.wcomnet.com>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dgismtp02.wcomnet.com by dgismtp02.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42263) with SMTP id <0G1O00D0127CI4@dgismtp02.wcomnet.com>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from C25776A ([166.44.58.153]) by dgismtp02.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42263) with SMTP id <0G1O007NS1UYHJ@dgismtp02.wcomnet.com>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:57:10 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:56:20 +0100 From: Henry Sinnreich Subject: RE: WAN multicast status In-reply-to: <200009281941.MAA28845@cisco.com> To: "John M. Zwiebel" , Tony Ballardie Cc: idmr , mboned , maddogs Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why the idmr and mboned ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? A personal opinion in hindsight: The multicast community did not develop and standardize the AAA and payments issues related to multicast. ISPs had no business model to justify the investment in multicast... Don't blame Real and Microsoft. Having this explanation, right or wrong, am now trying to get SIP folks to worry about AAA and payments for SIP services. If we don't learn from history, we will have to repeat it... Forgive my comments. Henry Henry Sinnreich MCI WorldCom 400 International Parkway Richardson, Texas 75081 USA >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu >[mailto:owner-mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu]On >Behalf Of John M. >Zwiebel >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:41 PM >To: Tony Ballardie >Cc: idmr; mboned; maddogs; jzwiebel@cisco.com >Subject: Re: WAN multicast status > > > > > ^ > ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why >the idmr and mboned > ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? > >Mostly I believe that now is a time for deployment. >All the talking >is done and folks are actually doing it. > >The "major" problem though is still the lack of >compelling content >which can reach a very large audience. Some of the road-blocks >are: > --DSL -- last hop can't do multicast (ie DSLAM can't replicate > a Single packet over different links); > --DOCSIS model for cable -- they want access control >at layer-2 and > there isn't a clear winner at layer-3 or above; > --ISP provider topologies -- for example AOL has >tunnels across > other ISPs and so (like the DSLAM) multicast >replication doesn't happen > at the last hop; > --alternate technologies that don't have anything to >do with multicast > but which may preclude deployment of multicast in >the near term because > they are incompatable; > --failure of Real and Microsoft to provide an open >internet broadcast > standard, combined with their need to maintain >control over the content > to the last hop to be able to realize a profit from >sales of > their technology. > --the knowledge that MSDP can only be a stop-gap >protocol for interdomain > multicast combined with the lack of progress on >BGMP which is viewed > as being too complicated. > --No way of determining the BW of the link requesting >a multicast > stream and therefore no way of insuring the link >doesn't get overwhelmed. > --The perception that video over the internet is >never going to be any > better than the 2" window you see over Real > >The "good news" is that there is progress being made >in each of these >areas, the bad news is that its still going to take >too long to get it >done, since (for me at least) it should have happened >years ago. > > ^ > ^ Content distribution networks (CDNs) and companies >are emerging, together > ^ with content providers (the 1-many application >driver has arrived). The CDN > ^ companies are building virtual topologies, but they >seem to be bypassing IP > ^ multicast in their designs in favour of application >level mcast and other > ^ solutions. > >IMHO, these networks provide the layer-4 and above >control over the >content that a "Republicrat" would require to maintain >control over the >content distribution. The model of "free TV" doesn't >translate that well >to an internet that can't put content in every home so >advertisers don't >know the size of the potential market. The CDN >network provides better >feedback. > >However even CDN can and will recognize benefits from >multicast and so >will deploy it and use it. It would appear to me that >they are using >what they know now to gain market position. They know >about multicast >but they don't know that it really works because of >all the roadblocks >listed above. > >I like to think of this as a free-speech issue though. > :-) layer-3 >multicast is for the "masses" where everyone can be >their own TV station >(50,000 channels and nothing on). Republicrat >multicast for the elite >who want to control what the masses see. (1984) :^) > >FWIW, enterprise multicast is doing great. > >Where do we have to go from here? > >Well, SSM, being made possible via IGMPv3 is going to be a >huge driver for interdomain multicast. It "would be >nice" if the web >page that advertises the SSM session could be enhanced >to record the >participants in the group so that it could act as an >RP rather than >having to depend on the RP to be located in the network. > >Once that is accomplished, then it "would be nice" if >that same RP >process could be used to set up an interdomain bi-dir >group. Since in >bidir PIM the RP can be anywhere, it just becomes a >vector end-point. >If you could have a "ip pim rp-address 0.0.0.0 bidir" >(a very gross >generalization of what would be needed) any one >sending to a multicast >group served by the default RP would send out a >"vector" that receivers >would join to. All vectors must eventually merge at infinity. > >Both of these solutions remove the need for MSDP and >BGMP, they do >present other challenges though that may be more >difficult to solve, >but they wouldn't have to be solved in the network. > >Finally, I'd like to see the model change for sending >to a multicast >group. Allowing a source to dump traffic on to a >network and expecting >the network to just deal with it does not work in >large scale and >especially interdomain multicast. For years at every >IETF, the beer >sessions have always devolved to requiring an RTS/CTS >multicast sender >capability. No one wants to do it because it doesn't >fit the model >proposed by Deering. Well, ethernet connectors don't >have slide-locks >any longer (at least no one buys ones that do) so its >time to change >the sender model or at least have some kind of an >alternative to the >current model where anything can get dumped out and it has to >be "taken care of". > >2 cents. Not reflecting anyone's reality but my own. >I'm lost in >a lost world of hopes and dreams of interdomain >multicast becoming a >reality so I can go to the beach. :-) > >------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------- > John Zwiebel Phone: 408-526-5303 > Cisco Systems Inc. > IP Multicast Group > From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 23:33:31 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA12562 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:15:30 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:15:25 +0100 Received: from mzdy17.allegro.net by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:15:36 +0100 Received: from eccmfw3.ford.com (unverified) by mzdy17.allegro.net (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:15:33 -0400 Message-Id: Received: by mailfw3.ford.com id VAA14236 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk); Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mailfw3.ford.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mailfw3.ford.com (Internal Mail Agent-0); Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Houdek, Stephen (S.W.)" To: "'Henry Sinnreich '" , "'John M. Zwiebel '" , "'Tony Ballardie '" Cc: "'idmr '" , "'mboned '" , "'maddogs '" Subject: RE: WAN multicast status Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:15:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk John is correct, there is a lot of activity in the enterprise space. As for the ISP's its a shame they don't get it. Content and demand is growing very rapidly. How does offering a multicast service break your current billing model? You use Multicast capability to attract new customers with the compelling content you can efficiently offer via multicast. Sorry Henry but to use the billing model as an excuse seems very weak, although not 100% inaccurate. John's comments seem much more on target relative the ISP DSLAM's not supporting Multicast. -----Original Message----- From: Henry Sinnreich To: John M. Zwiebel; Tony Ballardie Cc: idmr; mboned; maddogs Sent: 9/29/00 10:56 AM Subject: RE: WAN multicast status ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why the idmr and mboned ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? A personal opinion in hindsight: The multicast community did not develop and standardize the AAA and payments issues related to multicast. ISPs had no business model to justify the investment in multicast... Don't blame Real and Microsoft. Having this explanation, right or wrong, am now trying to get SIP folks to worry about AAA and payments for SIP services. If we don't learn from history, we will have to repeat it... Forgive my comments. Henry Henry Sinnreich MCI WorldCom 400 International Parkway Richardson, Texas 75081 USA >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu >[mailto:owner-mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu]On >Behalf Of John M. >Zwiebel >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:41 PM >To: Tony Ballardie >Cc: idmr; mboned; maddogs; jzwiebel@cisco.com >Subject: Re: WAN multicast status > > > > > ^ > ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why >the idmr and mboned > ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? > >Mostly I believe that now is a time for deployment. >All the talking >is done and folks are actually doing it. > >The "major" problem though is still the lack of >compelling content >which can reach a very large audience. Some of the road-blocks >are: > --DSL -- last hop can't do multicast (ie DSLAM can't replicate > a Single packet over different links); > --DOCSIS model for cable -- they want access control >at layer-2 and > there isn't a clear winner at layer-3 or above; > --ISP provider topologies -- for example AOL has >tunnels across > other ISPs and so (like the DSLAM) multicast >replication doesn't happen > at the last hop; > --alternate technologies that don't have anything to >do with multicast > but which may preclude deployment of multicast in >the near term because > they are incompatable; > --failure of Real and Microsoft to provide an open >internet broadcast > standard, combined with their need to maintain >control over the content > to the last hop to be able to realize a profit from >sales of > their technology. > --the knowledge that MSDP can only be a stop-gap >protocol for interdomain > multicast combined with the lack of progress on >BGMP which is viewed > as being too complicated. > --No way of determining the BW of the link requesting >a multicast > stream and therefore no way of insuring the link >doesn't get overwhelmed. > --The perception that video over the internet is >never going to be any > better than the 2" window you see over Real > >The "good news" is that there is progress being made >in each of these >areas, the bad news is that its still going to take >too long to get it >done, since (for me at least) it should have happened >years ago. > > ^ > ^ Content distribution networks (CDNs) and companies >are emerging, together > ^ with content providers (the 1-many application >driver has arrived). The CDN > ^ companies are building virtual topologies, but they >seem to be bypassing IP > ^ multicast in their designs in favour of application >level mcast and other > ^ solutions. > >IMHO, these networks provide the layer-4 and above >control over the >content that a "Republicrat" would require to maintain >control over the >content distribution. The model of "free TV" doesn't >translate that well >to an internet that can't put content in every home so >advertisers don't >know the size of the potential market. The CDN >network provides better >feedback. > >However even CDN can and will recognize benefits from >multicast and so >will deploy it and use it. It would appear to me that >they are using >what they know now to gain market position. They know >about multicast >but they don't know that it really works because of >all the roadblocks >listed above. > >I like to think of this as a free-speech issue though. > :-) layer-3 >multicast is for the "masses" where everyone can be >their own TV station >(50,000 channels and nothing on). Republicrat >multicast for the elite >who want to control what the masses see. (1984) :^) > >FWIW, enterprise multicast is doing great. > >Where do we have to go from here? > >Well, SSM, being made possible via IGMPv3 is going to be a >huge driver for interdomain multicast. It "would be >nice" if the web >page that advertises the SSM session could be enhanced >to record the >participants in the group so that it could act as an >RP rather than >having to depend on the RP to be located in the network. > >Once that is accomplished, then it "would be nice" if >that same RP >process could be used to set up an interdomain bi-dir >group. Since in >bidir PIM the RP can be anywhere, it just becomes a >vector end-point. >If you could have a "ip pim rp-address 0.0.0.0 bidir" >(a very gross >generalization of what would be needed) any one >sending to a multicast >group served by the default RP would send out a >"vector" that receivers >would join to. All vectors must eventually merge at infinity. > >Both of these solutions remove the need for MSDP and >BGMP, they do >present other challenges though that may be more >difficult to solve, >but they wouldn't have to be solved in the network. > >Finally, I'd like to see the model change for sending >to a multicast >group. Allowing a source to dump traffic on to a >network and expecting >the network to just deal with it does not work in >large scale and >especially interdomain multicast. For years at every >IETF, the beer >sessions have always devolved to requiring an RTS/CTS >multicast sender >capability. No one wants to do it because it doesn't >fit the model >proposed by Deering. Well, ethernet connectors don't >have slide-locks >any longer (at least no one buys ones that do) so its >time to change >the sender model or at least have some kind of an >alternative to the >current model where anything can get dumped out and it has to >be "taken care of". > >2 cents. Not reflecting anyone's reality but my own. >I'm lost in >a lost world of hopes and dreams of interdomain >multicast becoming a >reality so I can go to the beach. :-) > >------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------- > John Zwiebel Phone: 408-526-5303 > Cisco Systems Inc. > IP Multicast Group > From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 07:30:45 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA27391 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:25:25 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:25:20 +0100 Received: from 202.102.24.10 by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:25:31 +0100 Received: from _[181.117.105.144]_by by wwwdb. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA12261; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:29:30 +0800 From: HotStocks@aba.com Message-Id: <200009271529.XAA12261@wwwdb.> Original-Received: from [56.31.61.252] by _[181.117.105.144]_by with SMTP id A40C22E10 Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:13:42 PDT PP-warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line To: idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Subject: Why So Much Smart Money Is So High on Read-Rite !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain, charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:30:59 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Link to article below: http://www.thestreet.com/comment/herbonthestreet/1096812.html Commentary: Herb on TheStreet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why So Much Smart Money Is So High on Read-Rite By Herb Greenberg Senior Columnist 9/26/00 6:30 AM ET Read-Rite(symbol= RDRT) Feeling benevolent, so let's get bullish: Reading right: As I've written in RealMoney.com's Columnist Conversation, the one stock quite a few of my smartest sources are yapping about is Read-Rite (RDRT:Nasdaq - news - boards), the (until very recently) long-forgotten maker of heads for disk drives. The only reason I take it seriously is because of the variety of investors in the stock (from seasoned and savvy traders to some of the most-dogged researchers I know). Most of the sizzle surrounding the company in recent weeks has been tied to the launch of a new division called Scion Photonics, which is developing optical wafers for use in the fiber-optic networks, and which was initially funded with $25 mil from Tyco Ventures and Roger McNamee's Integral Capital, which got a quarter of the company in return. But that's only part of the story: According to Scott Turkel of TCM Partners, who has had his share of hits and misses in this column, and who also happens to be the only on-the-record holder among my sources, the company without Scion is worth about where it trades today, $10.50, or around 1 times sales. "They're completely sold out in their core business in the fourth quarter," he says, "and for the first time, they have pricing power." (One reason is that disk drives are no longer sold mostly for PCs; they've become a staple in storage networks.) Scion, meanwhile, is currently valued at around $100 million (based on Tyco/Integral's 25% stake). "Chump change," says Turkel. That's because the valuation is without even having a marketable product; the first wafer isn't expected to hit the market until next year (which, I should point out, is why some skeptics are, uh, skeptical). But another very sharp manager I know, who is often short stocks, said he saw Read-Rite at several recent conferences, and "I thought the story got better between Salomon Smith Barney and Banc of America, both on the optics side and on their base business. They actually showed a slide of the optical wafer prototype they had made; they said they are sampling product with several customers. They said, Our customers have said, 'If you can make them, we'll buy them.' In other words, the move to optical is less theoretical than it was a month ago." What's more, according to this money manger, who is great at spotting nuances, "They went from saying, 'We'll be break-even cash flow in Q-4 from core businesses,' to saying, 'We are on allocation and we may actually make money in Q4' from the core business.' " Based on that, Turkel (who first bought the stock when it was $4 not long ago) thinks he now owns a $10 stock that is worth $25. P.S.: Read-Rite recently paid the first installment of interest on a convertible bond with cash, rather than stock, which was an alternative. (The cash came from the State of Wisconsin Investment Board, already a large Read-Rite investor.) Translation to some investors: The only reason the state paid with cash is because it thinks the stock is going higher. Or, put another way, Wisconsin, which already owns a 20% stake, wouldn't have sunk in even more cash if it didn't think it would make a decent return. (Did I really write something that glowing? Must be some kind of a market top!) (Voluntary Disclosure: Position- Long) Read-Rite CEO gets into growth By Janet Haney, CBS.MarketWatch.com Last Update: [Timestamp]NewsWatch Latest headlines SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Read-Rite Chief Executive Officer Alan Lowe waxed positive about the future growth prospects for the magnetic-recording-head supplier. Lowe told a crowd of investors and analysts during a presentation at the Banc of America Securities Investment Conference in San Francisco on Thursday that he expects huge unit growth potential for Read-Rite's (RDRT: news, msgs) December quarter, as well as the possibility of profitability. Lowe added that the company is hiring people as fast as it can for its wafer fabrication facility. For the September quarter, the CEO said Read-Rite has a "lot of product to ship in the last 10 days of the quarter." Additionally, Lowe talked about Read-Rite's recent formation of an independent fiber optic company called Scion Photonics which he said hopes to go public. Scion received funding from Tyco, which will make a presentation at the conference later Thursday. Janet Haney is a reporter for CBS.MarketWatch.com. From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 07:31:19 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA27411 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:30:23 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:30:18 +0100 Received: from auemail2.lucent.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:30:29 +0100 Received: from auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20857 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-86-160-150.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20837 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:30:25 +0100 Message-ID: <976F7C55E3B2D111A0720008C728549C048772B5@en0060exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" To: "John M. Zwiebel" , Tony Ballardie , "'Henry Sinnreich'" Cc: idmr , mboned , maddogs Subject: RE: WAN multicast status Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:30:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Henry's analysis is quite right. Joining a multicast group today is not associated to any AAA... Until we don't have this defined, commercial uses of Multicast seem to be quite limited. (ditto was true for mobile IP) alessio > ---------- > From: Henry Sinnreich[SMTP:Henry.Sinnreich@WCom.com] > Sent: 29 September 2000 15:56 > To: John M. Zwiebel; Tony Ballardie > Cc: idmr; mboned; maddogs > Subject: RE: WAN multicast status > > ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why the idmr and > mboned > ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? > A personal opinion in hindsight: The multicast community did not > develop and standardize the AAA and payments issues related to > multicast. ISPs had no business model to justify the investment > in multicast... > Don't blame Real and Microsoft. > > Having this explanation, right or wrong, am now trying to get > SIP folks to worry about AAA and payments for SIP services. If > we don't learn from history, we will have to repeat it... > > Forgive my comments. > > Henry > > Henry Sinnreich > MCI WorldCom > 400 International Parkway > Richardson, Texas 75081 > USA > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu > >[mailto:owner-mboned@network-services.uoregon.edu]On > >Behalf Of John M. > >Zwiebel > >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:41 PM > >To: Tony Ballardie > >Cc: idmr; mboned; maddogs; jzwiebel@cisco.com > >Subject: Re: WAN multicast status > > > > > > > > > > ^ > > ^ I'd like to try and generate a discussion on why > >the idmr and mboned > > ^ lists have been so quiet for so long. Why is this? > > > >Mostly I believe that now is a time for deployment. > >All the talking > >is done and folks are actually doing it. > > > >The "major" problem though is still the lack of > >compelling content > >which can reach a very large audience. Some of the road-blocks > >are: > > --DSL -- last hop can't do multicast (ie DSLAM can't replicate > > a Single packet over different links); > > --DOCSIS model for cable -- they want access control > >at layer-2 and > > there isn't a clear winner at layer-3 or above; > > --ISP provider topologies -- for example AOL has > >tunnels across > > other ISPs and so (like the DSLAM) multicast > >replication doesn't happen > > at the last hop; > > --alternate technologies that don't have anything to > >do with multicast > > but which may preclude deployment of multicast in > >the near term because > > they are incompatable; > > --failure of Real and Microsoft to provide an open > >internet broadcast > > standard, combined with their need to maintain > >control over the content > > to the last hop to be able to realize a profit from > >sales of > > their technology. > > --the knowledge that MSDP can only be a stop-gap > >protocol for interdomain > > multicast combined with the lack of progress on > >BGMP which is viewed > > as being too complicated. > > --No way of determining the BW of the link requesting > >a multicast > > stream and therefore no way of insuring the link > >doesn't get overwhelmed. > > --The perception that video over the internet is > >never going to be any > > better than the 2" window you see over Real > > > >The "good news" is that there is progress being made > >in each of these > >areas, the bad news is that its still going to take > >too long to get it > >done, since (for me at least) it should have happened > >years ago. > > > > ^ > > ^ Content distribution networks (CDNs) and companies > >are emerging, together > > ^ with content providers (the 1-many application > >driver has arrived). The CDN > > ^ companies are building virtual topologies, but they > >seem to be bypassing IP > > ^ multicast in their designs in favour of application > >level mcast and other > > ^ solutions. > > > >IMHO, these networks provide the layer-4 and above > >control over the > >content that a "Republicrat" would require to maintain > >control over the > >content distribution. The model of "free TV" doesn't > >translate that well > >to an internet that can't put content in every home so > >advertisers don't > >know the size of the potential market. The CDN > >network provides better > >feedback. > > > >However even CDN can and will recognize benefits from > >multicast and so > >will deploy it and use it. It would appear to me that > >they are using > >what they know now to gain market position. They know > >about multicast > >but they don't know that it really works because of > >all the roadblocks > >listed above. > > > >I like to think of this as a free-speech issue though. > > :-) layer-3 > >multicast is for the "masses" where everyone can be > >their own TV station > >(50,000 channels and nothing on). Republicrat > >multicast for the elite > >who want to control what the masses see. (1984) :^) > > > >FWIW, enterprise multicast is doing great. > > > >Where do we have to go from here? > > > >Well, SSM, being made possible via IGMPv3 is going to be a > >huge driver for interdomain multicast. It "would be > >nice" if the web > >page that advertises the SSM session could be enhanced > >to record the > >participants in the group so that it could act as an > >RP rather than > >having to depend on the RP to be located in the network. > > > >Once that is accomplished, then it "would be nice" if > >that same RP > >process could be used to set up an interdomain bi-dir > >group. Since in > >bidir PIM the RP can be anywhere, it just becomes a > >vector end-point. > >If you could have a "ip pim rp-address 0.0.0.0 bidir" > >(a very gross > >generalization of what would be needed) any one > >sending to a multicast > >group served by the default RP would send out a > >"vector" that receivers > >would join to. All vectors must eventually merge at infinity. > > > >Both of these solutions remove the need for MSDP and > >BGMP, they do > >present other challenges though that may be more > >difficult to solve, > >but they wouldn't have to be solved in the network. > > > >Finally, I'd like to see the model change for sending > >to a multicast > >group. Allowing a source to dump traffic on to a > >network and expecting > >the network to just deal with it does not work in > >large scale and > >especially interdomain multicast. For years at every > >IETF, the beer > >sessions have always devolved to requiring an RTS/CTS > >multicast sender > >capability. No one wants to do it because it doesn't > >fit the model > >proposed by Deering. Well, ethernet connectors don't > >have slide-locks > >any longer (at least no one buys ones that do) so its > >time to change > >the sender model or at least have some kind of an > >alternative to the > >current model where anything can get dumped out and it has to > >be "taken care of". > > > >2 cents. Not reflecting anyone's reality but my own. > >I'm lost in > >a lost world of hopes and dreams of interdomain > >multicast becoming a > >reality so I can go to the beach. :-) > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >----------------------- > > John Zwiebel Phone: 408-526-5303 > > Cisco Systems Inc. > > IP Multicast Group > > > From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 17:35:58 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA01189 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:45:06 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:45:02 +0100 Received: from rip.psg.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:45:13 +0100 Received: from randy by rip.psg.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13fOox-000Nzg-00; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:45:03 -0700 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" Cc: "John M. Zwiebel" , Tony Ballardie , "'Henry Sinnreich'" , idmr , mboned , maddogs Subject: RE: WAN multicast status References: <976F7C55E3B2D111A0720008C728549C048772B5@en0060exch001u.uk.lucent.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:45:03 -0700 Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Joining a multicast group today is not > associated to any AAA... sending unicast is not associated with any aaa. this explains why unicast is such a dismal failure. randy From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 17:36:05 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA01200 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:58:49 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:58:42 +0100 Received: from sonic.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:58:53 +0100 To: Randy Bush cc: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" , "John M. Zwiebel" , Tony Ballardie , "'Henry Sinnreich'" , idmr , mboned , maddogs , J.Crowcroft@cs.ucl.ac.uk Subject: Re: WAN multicast status In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:45:03 PDT." Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:58:53 +0100 Message-ID: <1491.970329533@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Jon Crowcroft Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk good point a couple of centsworth: imminent life of multicast predicted. 1/ cisco finally have somethign that works 2/ sprint and a couple of other BIG isps care coz 3/ customers realize that their SERVERs dont cost as much if they multicast and 4/ we have some custoemrs with enuff bandwidth (xDSL/cable) and are _always on_ (sort of critical to simulataneous delivery somehow:-) to want streamed media in numbers and 5/ we have several flavours of reliable multicast nearly "approved" by the "friends of TCP friendliness" officers which means 6/ lots of other quite useful stuff will also get multicast not just dubious video/audio what is not happening is a) multicast for dial up (the AAA comment may be relevant there though really it aint difficult to authenticate/filter/firewall IGMP for gods sakes) b) many-to-many coz we dont know how to do interdomain and we dont see the latent demand yet - however, that said, the number of cute devices (playstation 2, dreamcast etc) that will wanna do 10 or even 100 player games and not use a server are gonna be quite impressive even by todys phobile moan and matrix denizens expectations... In message , Randy Bush typed: >>> Joining a multicast group today is not >>> associated to any AAA... >> >>sending unicast is not associated with any aaa. this explains why unicast >>is such a dismal failure. >> >>randy cheers jon From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 17:36:13 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA01211 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:35:47 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:35:41 +0100 Received: from alemail1.lucent.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:35:37 +0100 Received: from alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16002 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-86-160-150.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15998 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:35:35 +0100 Message-ID: <976F7C55E3B2D111A0720008C728549C048772C0@en0060exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" To: "'Randy Bush'" Cc: "John M. Zwiebel" , Tony Ballardie , "'Henry Sinnreich'" , idmr , mboned , maddogs Subject: RE: WAN multicast status Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:35:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk It turns out that subscription based broadcasted info is normally scrambled/encrypted. Put it the way you want, to get access to info that has commercial value, you need to be authorized. Whether authorization is associated to authentication built in IGMP or not, that does not matter to me... I only notice that normally you get thru AAA to acquire a unicast address (i.e. network access). In fact, this seems not to be such a dismal failure... I would imagine to be quite similarly important from an ISP perspective allowing or denying access to multicast groups via AAA (if anything, not to add a leg from a PIM RP to a POP without a commercial benefit...). Note that unicast commercially valuable information is not sent to the unicast receiver unless it has some right to access it. more... > > Joining a multicast group today is not > > associated to any AAA... > > sending unicast is not associated with any aaa. this explains why unicast > is such a dismal failure. > I haven't seen many businesses set up to send unicast packets to black-holes... If I had the opportunity to send multicast content over a link I pay for (and using ISP resources I guess I would have to pay for), I would like the ISP to warn me that I'm sending traffic while nobody I would like to be on the receiving end is there (namely those that pay for the service). If nobody is there, then I would like the ISP to let me save their resources, and to make my bill lighter... Perhaps, at AA phase, some multicast session key may be distributed too (if no other more convenient ways to do that are available). So, while I don't claim to be a business-model strategist (you are certainly better than me in that), I would figure out some AAA for multicast would not be detrimental to its success... And certainly it would not be the reason for any possible dismal failure. alessio From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 17:36:22 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA01222 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:25:18 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:25:04 +0100 Received: from necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:25:16 +0100 From: Masataka Ohta Message-Id: <200009302002.FAA06057@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Received: by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp (8.6.11/TM2.1) id FAA06057; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 05:01:54 +0859 Subject: Re: WAN multicast status In-Reply-To: from Randy Bush at "Sep 30, 2000 08:45:03 am" To: Randy Bush Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 05:01:54 +0859 () CC: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" , "John M. Zwiebel" , Tony Ballardie , "'Henry Sinnreich'" , idmr , mboned , maddogs X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Randy; > > Joining a multicast group today is not > > associated to any AAA... > > sending unicast is not associated with any aaa. this explains why unicast > is such a dismal failure. Not a proper comparison, because multicast is essentially a resource reserved communication (you must reserve a routing table entry (resource much more precious than bandwidth) for each group). So, one can say: > sending resource reserved unicast is not associated with any aaa. > this explains why resource reserved unicast is such a dismal failure. and some AAA effort is certainly necessary to make multicast deployable. However, it, by no means, is a sufficient condition. It does not mean that current multicast protocols are usable if SIP and yet another complex protocol are piled up on it. It does not mean IETF is doing something meaningful for multicast or AAA, either. Masataka Ohta From owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Sat Sep 30 19:56:15 2000 Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk (pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.8.208]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA02226 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk via Local Delivery channel id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:00:12 +0100 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by pan2.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:00:07 +0100 Received: from sigma.cisco.com by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:00:17 +0100 Received: from localhost (jzwiebel@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00761; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200009302025.NAA00761@cisco.com> To: "'Henry Sinnreich '" , "'Tony Ballardie '" , "'idmr '" , "'mboned '" , "'maddogs '" Subject: Re: WAN multicast status In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:15:28 EDT." Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:25:46 -0700 From: "John M. Zwiebel" Sender: owner-idmr@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk ^ A personal opinion in hindsight: The multicast community did not ^ develop and standardize the AAA and payments issues related to ^ multicast. I agree, but I don't believe it matters. IMHO folks who want data replication in the network with very tight control over who sees it and pays for it are going to opt for layer-4-7 replication ala Microsoft and Real and others. I'm not saying that is bad, just a different option. (Well, it is "bad" if you want to get into free speech issues that may or may not have a place in this discussion. :-) ^ ISPs had no business model to justify the investment ^ in multicast... Many do. Not all. I wouldn't expect everyone to want to do it because it isn't always easy to deploy within the framework of how your ISP is designed. Some ISPs make a lot of money with it. Some think it costs them money. It all depends. It isn't up to me though to provide a way for someone to make money with it. ;-) I just to 'neat stuff'. ^ Don't blame Real and Microsoft. I didn't mean to sound as if I was blaming them. They have a certain model with which they can make money and they are going after it. Their model though is in conflict with my perception of making the internet available to "common folks who have something important to say." I don't really care that much about making money. ^ ^ Forgive my comments. No problem. You have good points that are valid from the perspective you have. I should also say I'm not against making money. :-) That would be as wrong as believing that I "blame" Microsoft and Real for multicast's failure to be used widely at this point. I could just as easily "blame" IP/TV (I do actually ;-) for not wanting to get into the interdomain market. And why would I blame IP/TV? Well, because if they were in the interdomain market, I think we'd see more multicast there and we'd sell more routers. (What was that I said about money? There must be some fault in my reasoning. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Zwiebel Phone: 408-526-5303 Cisco Systems Inc. IP Multicast Group