From nobody Tue Jan 26 08:37:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9CD1B30B1; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:37:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.13.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160126163708.21148.46881.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:37:08 -0800 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:37:57 -0800 Subject: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:37:08 -0000 A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. List address: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=ietf-and-github To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github Purpose: GitHub is being used by more IETF Working Groups for proposing and tracking changes to WG Internet-Drafts. Using GitHub for normal WG processes requires some training, and edge cases in its usage abound. This list will be used for answering questions of individual WG participants and for creating IETF-wide documentation on how to use GitHub effectively in WG processes. For additional information, please contact the list administrators. From nobody Tue Jan 26 08:38:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AEE1B30B2; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:37:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.13.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160126163708.16360.99010.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:37:08 -0800 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:37:57 -0800 Subject: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:37:09 -0000 A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. List address: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=ietf-and-github To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github Purpose: GitHub is being used by more IETF Working Groups for proposing and tracking changes to WG Internet-Drafts. Using GitHub for normal WG processes requires some training, and edge cases in its usage abound. This list will be used for answering questions of individual WG participants and for creating IETF-wide documentation on how to use GitHub effectively in WG processes. For additional information, please contact the list administrators. From nobody Fri Jan 29 08:28:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3911A036F for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s3l_fEwPG7DJ for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x231.google.com (mail-yk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B57841A0AF1 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id z7so1674298yka.3 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:28:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=queuefull.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=RPZIdxOU1qJz3yL48fSll+VzBXKPbSNHvc9ZwjBgzqg=; b=Q21935G/COVNWIupE3R+vWTe5u8jQExTqaeMrc7vNGCGizDOhfwEs5jRSV1b3etD9w 4HdcXH3Xqo2ntruoveBrT8YAizv64OeMaTVqFaaXgO91webeIxW7Woi5ij31jhZjaw7R C8SuH/lxGQpdVbNTjoxDFcxW7iDvm74T3Da5o= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RPZIdxOU1qJz3yL48fSll+VzBXKPbSNHvc9ZwjBgzqg=; b=iLR4lnFuKXdJ6lPQPflgUkftjvrHQ9TlBiGbcv72KAjMhE1rSJM2yvZYYQgCC0RN7k ykhhJlKj3dyv3elFBfnynTmqREJvX+XwKeEaxRa/kfhndivicjw77CsuufXuhE0FqII4 cupA+ZsPH67Ibx8PIf2XZ0YYDLZ5dJi8DXhXMlojph4IZjusUBS8I4ibbVgdUnPabRbB rHOEbtEWX+rvEfsmse9cEZPJ/PtMzZXDDJVyoIyOQTu0WaFdf7n99+5lJU9s/wYDk71E gjaRnYagUvYpkCotOSpYIAf7uSEOd0yoN1bP085yB7IcgYC4kwFEM+/W7P31VcuxRSrn aPJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORdJL2rE7DDK6Pxk3eCjP2YhbEHcv3KWSURTqd0ceYwJRMCEoLPPCyJu+pTdTs3G1tSSJQ/yjuI6PncWw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.37.99.84 with SMTP id x81mr5258853ybb.96.1454084909907; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.129.136.133 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:28:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20160126163708.16360.99010.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <24B33939-0042-408C-B551-9AA6EE7C7A2E@live555.com> <732E14FE-1934-4E66-A230-8FBC4E29F999@vpnc.org> <56A7F848.3020308@gmail.com> <44B6FF40-EB15-49FE-A0EF-E455922CF7D5@piuha.net> <56AA0FD1.4040604@cisco.com> <56AB7326.2090808@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:28:29 -0500 Message-ID: From: Benson Schliesser To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Benson Schliesser Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c14b50877df9052a7b86cb Archived-At: Cc: John C Klensin , "Andrew G. Malis" , Bob Hinden , Dave Crocker , Eliot Lear Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 16:28:33 -0000 --001a11c14b50877df9052a7b86cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've changed the To: to point to the ietf-and-github@ mailing list for this discussion, and moved the ietf@ list to a BCC: header for this message. I think it's more appropriate for talking about this specific issue... -Benson On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote= : > The IETF=E2=80=99s primary collaborative tool is email. Right now it=E2= =80=99s very easy > to find the email archive for any WG, and to come up to speed on the WG > discussion. This would be much more difficult if WGs used github or other > third party tools for discussions that might otherwise have used the WG= =E2=80=99s > email list. Any public discussions regarding WG business should remain on > the current email lists unless and until they are formally replaced or > augmented so that people still only have to go to one place to stay curre= nt > with WG discussions. I don=E2=80=99t mind an eventual replacement of emai= l lists > for WG business, as long as the change is formal, supported, and consiste= nt > across all WGs. > > And stay off of my lawn! > > Curmudgeonly yours, > Andy > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Hi Bob, >> >> All the way down... >> >> On 1/28/16 6:02 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >> > Eliot, >> > >> >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> >> >> Jari, >> >> >> >> I have no conceptual problem with github being used for draft >> >> development or being integrated in our tools process for state change= s, >> >> or archiving of discussions, but I would maintain strong objections t= o >> >> any approach that would lead to bifurcation of discussion on a topic. >> >> That is- the technology and our relationships with those providing th= e >> >> service should be conducive to a single integrated conversation on a >> topic. >> > To say this another way, using github (or other collaboration tools) i= s >> great for authors or a design team to work together to develop an Intern= et >> draft. I do this myself. I think the dividing line is that drafts shou= ld >> continue to be submitted via the datatracker as they are now and working >> groups be using the datatracker to do their work. I would be very >> concerned if working groups started to do their work outside of the >> datatracker. >> > >> >> Yes, and. Discussion of technical issues should remain normatively >> within a single platform. If we want that to be github, okay. But today >> it's email. Doing both would at first glance sound like reaching out to >> people who prefer different modes of communications, but at the end of >> the day proves quite difficult for those who are actually trying to keep >> track of multiple threads in a conversation. Also, any platform should >> be able to support our processes, particular those that help us address >> abuse. >> >> Eliot >> >> >> > --001a11c14b50877df9052a7b86cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've changed the To: to point to the ietf-and-github@ = mailing list for this discussion, and moved the ietf@ list to a BCC: header= for this message. I think it's more appropriate for talking about this= specific issue...
-Benson


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:44 AM, A= ndrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:
The IETF=E2=80=99s primary collaborative t= ool is email. Right now it=E2=80=99s very easy to find the email archive fo= r any WG, and to come up to speed on the WG discussion. This would be much = more difficult if WGs used github or other third party tools for discussion= s that might otherwise have used the WG=E2=80=99s email list. Any public di= scussions regarding WG business should remain on the current email lists un= less and until they are formally replaced or augmented so that people still= only have to go to one place to stay current with WG discussions. I don=E2= =80=99t mind an eventual replacement of email lists for WG business, as lon= g as the change is formal, supported, and consistent across all WGs.
And stay off of my lawn!

Curmudgeonly y= ours,
Andy

On Fri, Jan 29= , 2016 at 9:11 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Bob,

All the way down...

On 1/28/16 6:02 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
> Eliot,
>
>> On Jan 28, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jari,
>>
>> I have no conceptual problem with github being used for draft
>> development or being integrated in our tools process for state cha= nges,
>> or archiving of discussions, but I would maintain strong objection= s to
>> any approach that would lead to bifurcation of discussion on a top= ic.
>> That is- the technology and our relationships with those providing= the
>> service should be conducive to a single integrated conversation on= a topic.
> To say this another way, using github (or other collaboration tools) i= s great for authors or a design team to work together to develop an Interne= t draft.=C2=A0 I do this myself.=C2=A0 I think the dividing line is that dr= afts should continue to be submitted via the datatracker as they are now an= d working groups be using the datatracker to do their work.=C2=A0 I would b= e very concerned if working groups started to do their work outside of the = datatracker.
>

Yes, and. Discussion of technical issues should remain normatively within a single platform.=C2=A0 If we want that to be github, okay. But tod= ay
it's email.=C2=A0 Doing both would at first glance sound like reaching = out to
people who prefer different modes of communications, but at the end of
the day proves quite difficult for those who are actually trying to keep track of multiple threads in a conversation.=C2=A0 Also, any platform shoul= d
be able to support our processes, particular those that help us address
abuse.

Eliot




--001a11c14b50877df9052a7b86cb-- From nobody Fri Jan 29 08:31:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DA61A0AF1 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:31:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b8JoJelWfeQz for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22a.google.com (mail-yk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ED7C1A014C for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id k129so75123371yke.0 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:31:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=queuefull.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=AXwrBKHJ2MK9LJimpBA1xXmbHenPAdR3He0eSqv7OPI=; b=aLTdFFrqvoNwDAsMZLdLogSfGg3kQ7+3xcRwTIg31ro4nsnIjdgHsgOdQx5+nOyuVi yd1djNdxKzBKfHGPXKaPDthSIPaZUZWI8flM5Tn6/Lcu3WCxtw10ruRL2H/2UM8o7hj3 2FePxrKfLpLI5zbq67uhJoxUqwRdQO+E4JySE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=AXwrBKHJ2MK9LJimpBA1xXmbHenPAdR3He0eSqv7OPI=; b=Nz5Cas84/3/MHxmih1U2lmjkSvnfnmBopz77dmDXQk98GWEKmSKU9aspF040Dfpw6R uR4SoU7GCjQjbjke7CZw3GnWx/KmqtvgCcE234OqVqm2MJ/Ijye4rujmsLLuMZA5sPvP +Pn7Ae6YvPW1d5cdtUNrl1PSEp28hb6mjrx2pg6+vNZSjaKqCQHEuDu3ZQwSFgnYjIXq AQG7zxTn8CtBmZ41+B8XTL7ziKpyacitV1ACdqtvTkJwumUiRk4/PzXx2fZlYn70mfZW A92Y82OLyQfdASZ+3DB6gVQcMSN3k/r/8CvtAL0WFybT2hlkDp0e7Gny79hoQhToDsS1 XrAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOS7E080jnu9aOV8kzw9EkVPLHz6BQoWkfRD1NHZQ7Re7wEMXK/OUOkYVKd1jA041mG+bwL5eVUoRAjfFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.146.137 with SMTP id j131mr1355874ywg.19.1454085086110; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.129.136.133 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:31:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20160126163708.16360.99010.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <24B33939-0042-408C-B551-9AA6EE7C7A2E@live555.com> <732E14FE-1934-4E66-A230-8FBC4E29F999@vpnc.org> <56A7F848.3020308@gmail.com> <44B6FF40-EB15-49FE-A0EF-E455922CF7D5@piuha.net> <56AA0FD1.4040604@cisco.com> <56AB7326.2090808@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:31:25 -0500 Message-ID: From: Benson Schliesser To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c065ffc082a67052a7b910c Archived-At: Cc: John C Klensin , "Andrew G. Malis" , Bob Hinden , Dave Crocker , Eliot Lear Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 16:31:29 -0000 --94eb2c065ffc082a67052a7b910c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use Github, but not in any extensive way. In my experience, it seems to me that some of the open source projects out there are fairly successful at connecting Github and email lists... For example by having emails sent for certain events that happen via git, and so forth. Can somebody more experienced in this area provide insight on what we can do, how, etc, and what gaps may exist? Thanks, -Benson On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Benson Schliesser wrote: > I've changed the To: to point to the ietf-and-github@ mailing list for > this discussion, and moved the ietf@ list to a BCC: header for this > message. I think it's more appropriate for talking about this specific > issue... > -Benson > > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Andrew G. Malis > wrote: > >> The IETF=E2=80=99s primary collaborative tool is email. Right now it=E2= =80=99s very easy >> to find the email archive for any WG, and to come up to speed on the WG >> discussion. This would be much more difficult if WGs used github or othe= r >> third party tools for discussions that might otherwise have used the WG= =E2=80=99s >> email list. Any public discussions regarding WG business should remain o= n >> the current email lists unless and until they are formally replaced or >> augmented so that people still only have to go to one place to stay curr= ent >> with WG discussions. I don=E2=80=99t mind an eventual replacement of ema= il lists >> for WG business, as long as the change is formal, supported, and consist= ent >> across all WGs. >> >> And stay off of my lawn! >> >> Curmudgeonly yours, >> Andy >> >> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >>> Hi Bob, >>> >>> All the way down... >>> >>> On 1/28/16 6:02 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>> > Eliot, >>> > >>> >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Jari, >>> >> >>> >> I have no conceptual problem with github being used for draft >>> >> development or being integrated in our tools process for state >>> changes, >>> >> or archiving of discussions, but I would maintain strong objections = to >>> >> any approach that would lead to bifurcation of discussion on a topic= . >>> >> That is- the technology and our relationships with those providing t= he >>> >> service should be conducive to a single integrated conversation on a >>> topic. >>> > To say this another way, using github (or other collaboration tools) >>> is great for authors or a design team to work together to develop an >>> Internet draft. I do this myself. I think the dividing line is that >>> drafts should continue to be submitted via the datatracker as they are = now >>> and working groups be using the datatracker to do their work. I would = be >>> very concerned if working groups started to do their work outside of th= e >>> datatracker. >>> > >>> >>> Yes, and. Discussion of technical issues should remain normatively >>> within a single platform. If we want that to be github, okay. But toda= y >>> it's email. Doing both would at first glance sound like reaching out t= o >>> people who prefer different modes of communications, but at the end of >>> the day proves quite difficult for those who are actually trying to kee= p >>> track of multiple threads in a conversation. Also, any platform should >>> be able to support our processes, particular those that help us address >>> abuse. >>> >>> Eliot >>> >>> >>> >> > --94eb2c065ffc082a67052a7b910c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I use Github, but not in any extensive way.=C2=A0

=
In my experience, it seems to me that some of the open source pr= ojects out there are fairly successful at connecting Github and email lists= ... For example by having emails sent for certain events that happen via gi= t, and so forth.=C2=A0

Can somebody more experienc= ed in this area provide insight on what we can do, how, etc, and what gaps = may exist?

Thanks,
-Benson


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at = 11:28 AM, Benson Schliesser <bensons@queuefull.net> wrot= e:
I've changed the = To: to point to the ietf-and-github@ mailing list for this discussion, and = moved the ietf@ list to a BCC: header for this message. I think it's mo= re appropriate for talking about this specific issue...
-Benson

<= /div>
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Andrew G. Mal= is <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:
The IETF=E2=80=99s primary collaborative tool is email= . Right now it=E2=80=99s very easy to find the email archive for any WG, an= d to come up to speed on the WG discussion. This would be much more difficu= lt if WGs used github or other third party tools for discussions that might= otherwise have used the WG=E2=80=99s email list. Any public discussions re= garding WG business should remain on the current email lists unless and unt= il they are formally replaced or augmented so that people still only have t= o go to one place to stay current with WG discussions. I don=E2=80=99t mind= an eventual replacement of email lists for WG business, as long as the cha= nge is formal, supported, and consistent across all WGs.

And stay off of my lawn!

Curmudgeonly yours,
<= div>Andy

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.co= m> wrote:
Hi Bob,

All the way down...

On 1/28/16 6:02 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
> Eliot,
>
>> On Jan 28, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jari,
>>
>> I have no conceptual problem with github being used for draft
>> development or being integrated in our tools process for state cha= nges,
>> or archiving of discussions, but I would maintain strong objection= s to
>> any approach that would lead to bifurcation of discussion on a top= ic.
>> That is- the technology and our relationships with those providing= the
>> service should be conducive to a single integrated conversation on= a topic.
> To say this another way, using github (or other collaboration tools) i= s great for authors or a design team to work together to develop an Interne= t draft.=C2=A0 I do this myself.=C2=A0 I think the dividing line is that dr= afts should continue to be submitted via the datatracker as they are now an= d working groups be using the datatracker to do their work.=C2=A0 I would b= e very concerned if working groups started to do their work outside of the = datatracker.
>

Yes, and. Discussion of technical issues should remain normatively within a single platform.=C2=A0 If we want that to be github, okay. But tod= ay
it's email.=C2=A0 Doing both would at first glance sound like reaching = out to
people who prefer different modes of communications, but at the end of
the day proves quite difficult for those who are actually trying to keep track of multiple threads in a conversation.=C2=A0 Also, any platform shoul= d
be able to support our processes, particular those that help us address
abuse.

Eliot





--94eb2c065ffc082a67052a7b910c-- From nobody Fri Jan 29 09:19:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC5A1A87EF for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:00:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.809 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BIZ=0.288, HELO_MISMATCH_BIZ=0.443, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Atcg3ZG61jaH for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from newdragon.webhostserver.biz (unknown [69.25.136.247]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB4E11A87EB for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [::1] (port=39194) by newdragon.webhostserver.biz with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aPCPm-00080e-CZ for ietf-and-github@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 20:00:54 +0300 To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org From: Lou Berger X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:00:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - newdragon.webhostserver.biz X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: newdragon.webhostserver.biz: authenticated_id: lberger@blabn.com X-Authenticated-Sender: newdragon.webhostserver.biz: lberger@blabn.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:19:24 -0800 Subject: [Ietf-and-github] A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 17:00:57 -0000 Hello, Having an automated way of keeping a WG informed of issues being tracked on gitub seems like a pretty critical enabler. Perhaps just having each WG added as a 'watcher' would work (see https://help.github.com/articles/about-notifications/) This also has the benefit of getting issues into a more permanent and easily located WG 'record'. Does anyone have any experience with this feature? Any alternate thoughts/experiences? Thanks, Lou PS Is anyone out there? From nobody Fri Jan 29 10:29:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB2F1ACE5C for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:29:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LWT3HOj4h2vZ for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD4DF1ACE4C for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:29:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=997; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1454092162; x=1455301762; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=gFYtTYmVnRyuLVO/dBtXo2sGx7ZzYkvbXlniXTfymAM=; b=Aqtl7JRex1JyER6Ckt4c2FrkU9UHuS7wf2t0SPTrPtjwdScnKZmnjVbE vZz/qebdYtCQ3N9ehcEy1ZL7LCNXllsUT+dBsDgMywVvZsed3RC4KZEcY 0YsK+iajurAGjeUOToObrxtwQ+oHQJ6StpyOUD0emG2xxVjlzdTPwCp42 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AFAgABr6tW/4oNJK1egzpSbQaIUrE4A?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BYxgKhW0CgTQ4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoRCAQEEAQEBaxsCAQgOOCcLJQIEARKIGw7?= =?us-ascii?q?AQQEBAQEBAQEBAgEBAQEBAQEBARMEikSEMIQ8AQSNXIkSAYVGiASOcY48AR4BA?= =?us-ascii?q?UKCOIE0aogBfAEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.22,365,1449532800"; d="scan'208";a="232813027" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 29 Jan 2016 18:29:21 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (xch-aln-017.cisco.com [173.36.7.27]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u0TITLMn013245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:29:21 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (173.36.7.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:29:21 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:29:20 -0600 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Lou Berger , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? Thread-Index: AQHRWsL4JmeKGoQdr0enH16VNi9jQg== Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:29:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.0.151221 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.163.19] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:29:24 -0000 If you were to create a =B3team=B2 for an IETF working group, that team cou= ld watch the project, and all members of the team would get notifications. Cheers, Charles=20 On 1/29/16, 6:00 PM, "Ietf-and-github on behalf of Lou Berger" wrote: >Hello, > >Having an automated way of keeping a WG informed of issues being tracked >on gitub seems like a pretty critical enabler. > >Perhaps just having each WG added as a 'watcher' would work (see >https://help.github.com/articles/about-notifications/) > >This also has the benefit of getting issues into a more permanent and >easily located WG 'record'. > >Does anyone have any experience with this feature? Any alternate >thoughts/experiences? > >Thanks, >Lou > >PS Is anyone out there? > >_______________________________________________ >Ietf-and-github mailing list >Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Fri Jan 29 10:42:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74521B3164 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:42:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KmN1-m0-paNL for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F33681B3166 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:42:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12469; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1454092966; x=1455302566; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=2+OQw2mW8Z7cb/cH1APTFO20GBzv+lVNicg9RVtJOpA=; b=MTRDZcufgVa0+7o7s85hoLCbrDeLZmIbHBSsohs65Tmnk9clF+4UO4V9 Utfc698D946Ksz2tq4IhDJCXC0nyASfXrFdqqL/zyfN4JuIPSwRnVerE+ gqi8Q6vlXL4jCEJwT9IIvLb7/vkykMsRn3R76bcG+DRbAxGoDPfBZe37j w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A1BQCcsatW/5FdJa1egm5MgT8GiFKvJ?= =?us-ascii?q?YIhgWOGDwKBNDkTAQEBAQEBAYEKhEEBAQEEbgQHEAIBCBEDAQIBIwQHIREUCQg?= =?us-ascii?q?CBAENBYgGAxK8Kg2EFAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARWKRII3gUsRAT6EG?= =?us-ascii?q?gWNXIUPhAMBi1eBc45xhn2HPwEhAUCCOIE0aodNNHwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.22,365,1449532800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="71816941" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 29 Jan 2016 18:42:45 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u0TIgjfw012666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:42:45 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:42:44 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:42:44 -0600 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Benson Schliesser , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups Thread-Index: AQHRWFgATruPtwZqF0mzz+R1p60wup8OvkKAgAAKgwCAAAMfAIAADmgAgAJnRwCAAAi5gIAAROmAgAFirgCAABnngIAADEeAgAAA0YCAADVyAA== Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:42:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160126163708.16360.99010.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <24B33939-0042-408C-B551-9AA6EE7C7A2E@live555.com> <732E14FE-1934-4E66-A230-8FBC4E29F999@vpnc.org> <56A7F848.3020308@gmail.com> <44B6FF40-EB15-49FE-A0EF-E455922CF7D5@piuha.net> <56AA0FD1.4040604@cisco.com> <56AB7326.2090808@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.0.151221 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.163.19] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2D168AC62CB4eckelcuciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: John C Klensin , Bob Hinden , "Andrew G. Malis" , Dave Crocker , Eliot Lear Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:42:51 -0000 --_000_D2D168AC62CB4eckelcuciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When you create a project in github, you can set it up such that the IETF w= orking group mailing list is "watching" the project and receives email noti= fications of all activity, comments, etc. within the project. Cheers, Charles From: Ietf-and-github > on behalf of Benson Schliesser > Date: Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9:31 AM To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" > Cc: John C Klensin >, "Andrew G= . Malis" >, Bob Hinden >, Dave Crocker >, "lear@cisco.com" > Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- = Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Gro= ups I use Github, but not in any extensive way. In my experience, it seems to me that some of the open source projects out = there are fairly successful at connecting Github and email lists... For exa= mple by having emails sent for certain events that happen via git, and so f= orth. Can somebody more experienced in this area provide insight on what we can d= o, how, etc, and what gaps may exist? Thanks, -Benson On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Benson Schliesser > wrote: I've changed the To: to point to the ietf-and-github@ mailing list for this= discussion, and moved the ietf@ list to a BCC: header for this message. I = think it's more appropriate for talking about this specific issue... -Benson On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Andrew G. Malis > wrote: The IETF's primary collaborative tool is email. Right now it's very easy to= find the email archive for any WG, and to come up to speed on the WG discu= ssion. This would be much more difficult if WGs used github or other third = party tools for discussions that might otherwise have used the WG's email l= ist. Any public discussions regarding WG business should remain on the curr= ent email lists unless and until they are formally replaced or augmented so= that people still only have to go to one place to stay current with WG dis= cussions. I don't mind an eventual replacement of email lists for WG busine= ss, as long as the change is formal, supported, and consistent across all W= Gs. And stay off of my lawn! Curmudgeonly yours, Andy On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Eliot Lear > wrote: Hi Bob, All the way down... On 1/28/16 6:02 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Eliot, > >> On Jan 28, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Eliot Lear > wrote: >> >> Jari, >> >> I have no conceptual problem with github being used for draft >> development or being integrated in our tools process for state changes, >> or archiving of discussions, but I would maintain strong objections to >> any approach that would lead to bifurcation of discussion on a topic. >> That is- the technology and our relationships with those providing the >> service should be conducive to a single integrated conversation on a top= ic. > To say this another way, using github (or other collaboration tools) is g= reat for authors or a design team to work together to develop an Internet d= raft. I do this myself. I think the dividing line is that drafts should c= ontinue to be submitted via the datatracker as they are now and working gro= ups be using the datatracker to do their work. I would be very concerned i= f working groups started to do their work outside of the datatracker. > Yes, and. Discussion of technical issues should remain normatively within a single platform. If we want that to be github, okay. But today it's email. Doing both would at first glance sound like reaching out to people who prefer different modes of communications, but at the end of the day proves quite difficult for those who are actually trying to keep track of multiple threads in a conversation. Also, any platform should be able to support our processes, particular those that help us address abuse. Eliot --_000_D2D168AC62CB4eckelcuciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <98B0B502DC0ED34B8E9D893CDCBBF280@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When you create a project in github, you can set it up such that the I= ETF working group mailing list is “watching” the project and re= ceives email notifications of all activity, comments, etc. within the proje= ct.

Cheers,
Charles 

From: Ietf-and-github <ietf-and-github-bounces@ietf.o= rg> on behalf of Benson Schliesser <bensons@queuefull.net>
Date: Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9= :31 AM
To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>
Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, "Andrew G. Malis&q= uot; <agmalis@gmail.com>, Bo= b Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>, "lear@cisco.com" <= ;lear@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New = Non-WG Mailing List: Ietf-and-github -- Discussion of using GitHub in IETF = activities, particularly for Working Groups

I use Github, but not in any extensive way. 

In my experience, it seems to me that some of the open source projects= out there are fairly successful at connecting Github and email lists... Fo= r example by having emails sent for certain events that happen via git, and= so forth. 

Can somebody more experienced in this area provide insight on what we = can do, how, etc, and what gaps may exist?

Thanks,
-Benson


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Benson Schlies= ser <bensons@queu= efull.net> wrote:
I've changed the To: to point to the ietf-and-github@ mail= ing list for this discussion, and moved the ietf@ list to a BCC: header for= this message. I think it's more appropriate for talking about this specifi= c issue...
-Benson


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Andrew G. Mali= s <agmalis@gmail.co= m> wrote:
The IETF’s primary collaborative tool is email. Righ= t now it’s very easy to find the email archive for any WG, and to com= e up to speed on the WG discussion. This would be much more difficult if WG= s used github or other third party tools for discussions that might otherwise have used the WG’s email list. Any public discu= ssions regarding WG business should remain on the current email lists unles= s and until they are formally replaced or augmented so that people still on= ly have to go to one place to stay current with WG discussions. I don’t mind an eventual replacement of email l= ists for WG business, as long as the change is formal, supported, and consi= stent across all WGs.

And stay off of my lawn!

Curmudgeonly yours,
Andy

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:
Hi Bob,

All the way down...

On 1/28/16 6:02 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
> Eliot,
>
>> On Jan 28, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jari,
>>
>> I have no conceptual problem with github being used for draft
>> development or being integrated in our tools process for state cha= nges,
>> or archiving of discussions, but I would maintain strong objection= s to
>> any approach that would lead to bifurcation of discussion on a top= ic.
>> That is- the technology and our relationships with those providing= the
>> service should be conducive to a single integrated conversation on= a topic.
> To say this another way, using github (or other collaboration tools) i= s great for authors or a design team to work together to develop an Interne= t draft.  I do this myself.  I think the dividing line is that dr= afts should continue to be submitted via the datatracker as they are now and working groups be using the datatracker to= do their work.  I would be very concerned if working groups started t= o do their work outside of the datatracker.
>

Yes, and. Discussion of technical issues should remain normatively within a single platform.  If we want that to be github, okay. But tod= ay
it's email.  Doing both would at first glance sound like reaching out = to
people who prefer different modes of communications, but at the end of
the day proves quite difficult for those who are actually trying to keep track of multiple threads in a conversation.  Also, any platform shoul= d
be able to support our processes, particular those that help us address
abuse.

Eliot





 --_000_D2D168AC62CB4eckelcuciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jan 29 12:51:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CBE1B33B6 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:51:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OKvgpencoVcj for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7CE1B33B7 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5907C6983 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:51:28 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MZ-1XQmYQQmA for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:51:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:1:64b0:9aed:daf1:9fd4] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:1:64b0:9aed:daf1:9fd4]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 68D217C6975 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:51:27 +0100 (CET) To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: <56ABD0CD.10205@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:51:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 20:51:32 -0000 In the W3C WEBRTC WG, we get notifications sent to the WG when issues are opened and when issues are closed. We considered sending all the updates too, but that would be overload - many Github issue comments are small, and assume that the reader has the rest of the conversation onscreen (Github notifications do not include context, but the Github conversation view does). On 01/29/2016 06:00 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > Hello, > > Having an automated way of keeping a WG informed of issues being tracked > on gitub seems like a pretty critical enabler. > > Perhaps just having each WG added as a 'watcher' would work (see > https://help.github.com/articles/about-notifications/) > > This also has the benefit of getting issues into a more permanent and > easily located WG 'record'. > > Does anyone have any experience with this feature? Any alternate > thoughts/experiences? > > Thanks, > Lou > > PS Is anyone out there? > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. 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([2406:e007:7d4b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x23sm26480159pfi.42.2016.01.29.18.57.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:57:03 -0800 (PST) To: Harald Alvestrand , ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> <56ABD0CD.10205@alvestrand.no> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56AC268B.8080201@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 15:57:15 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56ABD0CD.10205@alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 02:57:07 -0000 Harald, There could be cases, surely, where that would be problematic for the IETF. No problem if the issue is a spelling error. But suppose the issue is a choice between red and blue bytes, and the issue is settled as 'red' because somebody alleges that blue bytes are patented. That dialogue needs to be on the WG list. Also, we need counsel's opinion on how we ensure that IETF process rules apply to everything that happens on gh. Some of us have put some words in the readme for the repo. Is that enough? https://github.com/becarpenter/animaproto/blob/master/README.md Brian On 30/01/2016 09:51, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > In the W3C WEBRTC WG, we get notifications sent to the WG when issues > are opened and when issues are closed. > > We considered sending all the updates too, but that would be overload - > many Github issue comments are small, and assume that the reader has the > rest of the conversation onscreen (Github notifications do not include > context, but the Github conversation view does). > > > On 01/29/2016 06:00 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Having an automated way of keeping a WG informed of issues being tracked >> on gitub seems like a pretty critical enabler. >> >> Perhaps just having each WG added as a 'watcher' would work (see >> https://help.github.com/articles/about-notifications/) >> >> This also has the benefit of getting issues into a more permanent and >> easily located WG 'record'. >> >> Does anyone have any experience with this feature? Any alternate >> thoughts/experiences? >> >> Thanks, >> Lou >> >> PS Is anyone out there? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > From nobody Sun Jan 31 16:08:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14F11A6F64 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:08:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2af8-qqSZHYh for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EC121A6F63 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id g73so141235421ioe.3 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:08:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=TnTrZ++DgykTTwEHSWeZHAwAfPYZ6mjYk4ex9mLAGys=; b=hk9SnbSevoajArP5wskgEi7TijzchwhObRfdydA8/91TRLZFe3Krbz0mmA6nzXcDzG h06Ip2uZx2qPjwsnJhNdeUcJXUzVaHHqZKEWl0EAz03RD9g4ne4BUvD8gWo181QYwFeQ 15mLtiWT7fRHIZiNb9EmybsqHM7hA4X9mQK3M7bSfB4JUo4wXOYBr6wx0aMLMzieZPOx lObGg2renctys4lPrTOTaSFM+N/nxa+WPu+od0u5w9IdNupQu8V49Wd39adjCknbGul/ nmQDFdIbetYloOmkc21My6VyXkIoes1TsYHxwcjo8oWKYIVYF1keU1Ndoq492iOjqrHM 1OHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=TnTrZ++DgykTTwEHSWeZHAwAfPYZ6mjYk4ex9mLAGys=; b=X0+MOiRFkIe1+p76tFn6oJ9eBulZSFNtud+nUWOQ7zyDgZs+fxZTx7kNqBq3hXVmmu CWwVltR9dCzyt6ZI58c1TWFUFp3lIEahqih7w6n9RV9QnlMUxAF1aV6I9Nsh2ils+u0t 5Zrhbo7Sd/gfvC68Fa+8JlD4e7Gd/Q0j+TPBQAWotMRkavPdvNh8wpe3d2Gs0BSFB+LT V0Qh5W+Pr4Ncf3PdS7FJ+LTq6BZH31AWoDr6osV2LWlPUrZfxn6uubh18S7/qa3ra8EK 2wnv6FLYmpGL68BZT4bnYyxAXlOI8ekmac324VirJlkz6wgeU5tTr1T1LQCTJHWVmkh9 6OUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOTw1huSlco3B2y9SgrClTVzH23ZeWFQwnEpazn8E9vvJXesg1TgNuRrLXPnlZcTLRJsU89RrZrMd0NlyA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.33.14 with SMTP id h14mr18712192ioh.108.1454285304026; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.149.130 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:08:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56AC268B.8080201@gmail.com> References: <56AB9AC3.90107@labn.net> <56ABD0CD.10205@alvestrand.no> <56AC268B.8080201@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:08:23 +1100 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Brian E Carpenter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Harald Alvestrand , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 00:08:25 -0000 On 30 January 2016 at 13:57, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Also, we need counsel's opinion on how we ensure that IETF process > rules apply to everything that happens on gh. Some of us have > put some words in the readme for the repo. Is that enough? That's a good question, probably worthy of a new thread. This is what a lot of repos have in them: From nobody Sun Jan 31 16:09:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5241F1A6F64 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:09:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DH0FBzYluDJf for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F34DE1A6F63 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-x233.google.com with SMTP id ik10so24651824igb.1 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:09:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=2bRJahpn9nDn0QZbbrgZ/9XPDox/YCYV8gTr3ZgQ0vQ=; b=UQn/a+FfcFvuhTuTCEV2gRwl4JbVtN54V/xjwLko1v8FYR6svXkP0tmrKOlD/M9Qmp RbtWKnvJ1+AprlNdRcqR1rh8MxCwSoBN88lWFISsHWPmpm0KSZW9xru0brq4T9W7MU68 i/YKREi7lEMUWIprzViDaG6D2zgZDL8cMICpdHAUTL6oa8mGCY55T/c/Dn6rYqLCbIJY JK3Qg83E2cUVMtcw+Hm1rBPapIhDiWAVW0ckh2QikKyXxmVeZGO+ex3mojDocd/xk+Rx DilUpIPChVkzz8skYauySz3t+oADq8CtsQm9Xx/mQtUQ9I7tjtp2Ss/jurLOk8IPEbTb QJwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=2bRJahpn9nDn0QZbbrgZ/9XPDox/YCYV8gTr3ZgQ0vQ=; b=LQVLMfa7qFdz4rt6CJ4f4DoAFvsdVNTuznx2BtmZ3TEf2ackE69EFGCwiUfVCt0JZd ZmwarTfpeWc1+ARmG94BkQMbKlLKkZmmbeOhaSSD2H/g/R5UBZf2/uXP0jrEpenPSWuY jMGPJYEcDWHf1tnFzOAfveQJ3xEcTbdJER6ADwFglejLX9SDlNng2MrF7vc8cJuD+i16 gc1K74BOALtyj8Wj/xSpp3lHU0dVgFQUuj2uRmVEgOZgBYTAs70u37XrX/nw+IqPaovX 93D21dmcf1bhgu7tzvbUy7zadEkvG4MctmjHO4Lqr634llbDxoHVIOAxIVBBgDi0t/9+ IO1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOSoyOp+rEzAfpifstTSj51eF5DPwM7SuxGFUmq/imNWqFHwO5MFsib7CPgw9ejvH4JTZnilnPOgYq0ZRA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.13.102 with SMTP id g6mr8665588igc.77.1454285340449; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.149.130 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:09:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:09:00 +1100 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Brian E Carpenter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Harald Alvestrand , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 00:09:02 -0000 Now with fewer fat fingers. On 1 February 2016 at 11:08, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 30 January 2016 at 13:57, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> Also, we need counsel's opinion on how we ensure that IETF process >> rules apply to everything that happens on gh. Some of us have >> put some words in the readme for the repo. Is that enough? > > That's a good question, probably worthy of a new thread. > > This is what a lot of repos have in them: https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/master/template/CONTRIBUTING.md From nobody Sun Jan 31 16:54:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2AC91A870B for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:54:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R0OVj2pFyt26 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 778F11A870A for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 16:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [120.149.194.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 610DC22E1F4; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:54:48 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:54:45 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> References: To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 00:54:53 -0000 > On 1 Feb 2016, at 11:09 am, Martin Thomson = wrote: >=20 > Now with fewer fat fingers. >=20 > On 1 February 2016 at 11:08, Martin Thomson = wrote: >> On 30 January 2016 at 13:57, Brian E Carpenter >> wrote: >>> Also, we need counsel's opinion on how we ensure that IETF process >>> rules apply to everything that happens on gh. Some of us have >>> put some words in the readme for the repo. Is that enough? >>=20 >> That's a good question, probably worthy of a new thread. >>=20 >> This is what a lot of repos have in them: >=20 > = https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/master/template/CONTRIB= UTING.md For those who don't know - if a file named CONTRIBUTING.md is in a = github repo, a prominent link to it is created in a number of places = that allow people to interact with the repo; e.g., https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/new Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Jan 31 17:08:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC391A873C for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:08:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ys3Xkx92oDz2 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com [23.79.238.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE99E1A873B for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CDB3F401A; Mon, 1 Feb 2016 01:08:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF9E3F4017; Mon, 1 Feb 2016 01:08:06 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1454288886; bh=SgScLNybR7/0J1EInFFGEKWzB3TAkGRnnTQ513Wh//g=; l=139; h=From:To:CC:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=rPKvBjdGnAxR7dC2DxfxWGMBy1EZQsggjWd9ApNPPgFJfLeOCplDLCiz9MW/u4ib8 5Tbj+Qd9X3cwQk7hfflRhWDzP/2LnCn+d/YU8cLbMsf8UES23r/XJCsuRW4/cvK9DN tkukHR9/kFxjGts4EY1mqknK7OVn+b3BILaq1Fr4= Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com (ecp.msg.corp.akamai.com [172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E562026; Mon, 1 Feb 2016 01:08:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:08:05 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:08:05 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Mark Nottingham , Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? Thread-Index: AQHRXITD+Xl2fezlNU+YFFWV6coKip8WsRCA//+vxtA= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 01:08:05 +0000 Message-ID: <4b5a0253e772498daa51207f3652ab75@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.32.140] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 01:08:09 -0000 GitHub is wporking on support for CLA's. The IETF CLA could be as simple a= s "I acknowledge the note well" if we're interested in that. From nobody Sun Jan 31 18:24:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5DC1A887B for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:24:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rlqX6aJuQBfW for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2F441A8879 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x232.google.com with SMTP id yy13so73007002pab.3 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:24:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uIJJFcbPpfcCzV8ItSDkbk9JAcslAA1FMjRVCM5kF00=; b=BnRJ+E75JxM71r0/dGESsfD8VvAv4MYCPH443rz2PvaBCCCRKc9GY5rgegIBGpu27p i5xf4N4AI3Wc3VVaxnSXjkxQebs/bf9jl0kNQhoRbkL7idBUHMSHrKEwAPDHdrMGnpav svrMuMNHXFHQxRXIRJQW+15Mzs509b1qWlyXJGupFVsGd7SUo+Of25uKM3DOB4grMiHH cr1txd8a0iZStmh4Uy9PVBVmscT3FPMf8auBBmUVCgcRlsUNgo4UmQZhDAuStJIaAovl vBa2TiBofmNz7yTJia+sjOye2DAr1KYXkKV2sYG3K+JACnlPQekMW0i+06vxaCutDom/ SSIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uIJJFcbPpfcCzV8ItSDkbk9JAcslAA1FMjRVCM5kF00=; b=BVHOTgRZndjEkTnw3o3MHZkljJUS1EYZLqE5HTCDpRgys6ApGzzUwmLMzD5XuIWlrU VXJoGbjUIYAw/a+S5edNnD+pwWMKHUvDFF6R81VPZ8Yo5wHZzTpVzomO6OfCeKwMNqc8 c/cXoqSx1Nwd0vh/f3DmHg4dvl5lI1bVm5Kmw2IQOrt2u8UYNc3KY1W9RKkLlZpYfhxo /bU9LEvd4wqFr0XQCzln0w6DBtQ2IVmxLMaBq10/+JTdbrh0qG5Jo5m8ybk1buWnJTTz slsyukXCYA5jFwRGu5pfWJHuaEtKmr4V7tEqXlr+22RWQ05R0udxibW1fcoXcK/PrY2Y Vu+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORZhy/O3w36HhWz32JSVyAvNRW/J9IzwlgOIVSJzaNI09Z2aUnpmMcCbURk1zGVgA== X-Received: by 10.66.193.195 with SMTP id hq3mr34435163pac.38.1454293488460; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:48c4:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:48c4:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p66sm38688622pfi.34.2016.01.31.18.24.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:24:47 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Nottingham , Martin Thomson References: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56AEC1EC.1030706@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:24:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 02:24:50 -0000 On 01/02/2016 13:54, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 1 Feb 2016, at 11:09 am, Martin Thomson wrote: >> >> Now with fewer fat fingers. >> >> On 1 February 2016 at 11:08, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> On 30 January 2016 at 13:57, Brian E Carpenter >>> wrote: >>>> Also, we need counsel's opinion on how we ensure that IETF process >>>> rules apply to everything that happens on gh. Some of us have >>>> put some words in the readme for the repo. Is that enough? >>> >>> That's a good question, probably worthy of a new thread. >>> >>> This is what a lot of repos have in them: >> >> https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/master/template/CONTRIBUTING.md > > For those who don't know - if a file named CONTRIBUTING.md is in a github repo, a prominent link to it is created in a number of places that allow people to interact with the repo; e.g., > https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/new > IANAL, but my understanding is that it is generally better to point to the official rules than to generate copies in each place or to add explanatory material that might unintentionally modify the interpretation. So maybe we should create a short CONTRIBUTING.md and request the IETF counsel to check it. Brian From nobody Sun Jan 31 18:39:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85D11A8898 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:39:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vcsACdRlXdhL for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 821B01A88A3 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [120.149.194.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1CF622E1F4; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:39:31 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <56AEC1EC.1030706@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:39:28 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> <56AEC1EC.1030706@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Martin Thomson Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 02:39:41 -0000 > On 1 Feb 2016, at 1:24 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > IANAL, but my understanding is that it is generally better to point to = the official > rules than to generate copies in each place or to add explanatory = material > that might unintentionally modify the interpretation. So maybe we = should > create a short CONTRIBUTING.md and request the IETF counsel to check = it. I think that's the function of NOTE WELL, isn't it? Each WG might have additional information they want to add, so I don't = think we could have each one be exactly the same, but maybe what we need = is ( NOTE_WELL + ADDITIONAL_GITHUB_SPECIFICS? + WG_STUFF ). -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Jan 31 19:04:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9765F1A8907 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:04:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zQYpIvTUZGa for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB8711A8905 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n128so74651124pfn.3 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:04:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3uA5NqNAraK0LtA2f3ttTax3XuDyjvtQFQ9FXhXGjio=; b=JgbiQB8zspCQZNaV++aI07qBQ/icYn7d0wqPDUmUP1wn2noMNRDp86aUbOH4xX/8bp kA+WcvQupgvJYs9h/oDil4kPTheJO64WxruQtutm9jS/oL6ITWuhtAwrwX4bZVaHhBXE GrBgvlGGrHZxBgP9yyd6hVvnUHhvNqyDe8abNc301MKipy0mJIJdmnolo1P7ZlaUj4UT 4mFSJ+Q05ttxbIRn23U87O2r7EehasQpSsIUeMxb33LHfYlzfgrvBR5lMHy2PNYzPnwH JrbtLJ+JdwOzGHfhCng/uN0GvBZwURArRWaqzhil6RneqtVsg6H7/eh0KjMdvvh0/ior niwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3uA5NqNAraK0LtA2f3ttTax3XuDyjvtQFQ9FXhXGjio=; b=gJ1fg1A1mg13fA1nRakYZccySELqxCFp5jUo5QDO0dIG6GJ4GH54aNcn81AzJXiPPM Wv4J5RYlvrY/gstPPW+YMT93bJvwEClHdHl55J7YGk5EVnTN6FkjKLwLwPXSrjT9VfsC tzrKNMKYmhFvbkObUoUNE5YjfMrsuFyaBnuVmjmkB5RUXVZ32/5Dcr55l43e1TE7qukC 8YwEJXYkRSRzZOdd+q1h26o0zoLQzQIQr46ODDwbyVxwZjA63Hkgvgoeb1sY5dqwhUvt cfmbKGQyeJqCaXluNAbnPywT/s3Fs+0jMihYK0GumngU70qNQbik53Y5/Y4NXPvDEu+E YR+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQ9oEvUIrH9ukYI2ObjUZClgNl+FVwYXLE6c8AVlI5oZbdOP4MgkL1uzxyc8/4ikg== X-Received: by 10.98.70.80 with SMTP id t77mr13685794pfa.107.1454295888417; Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:48c4:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:48c4:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o4sm38764814pfa.85.2016.01.31.19.04.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:04:47 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Nottingham References: <700E78FA-C5ED-4597-97F3-25D4B67722A0@mnot.net> <56AEC1EC.1030706@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56AECB4C.6060402@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:04:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Martin Thomson Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Legal notices (was: Re: A possible way of keeping WG informed of github tracked issues? X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 03:04:50 -0000 On 01/02/2016 15:39, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 1 Feb 2016, at 1:24 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> IANAL, but my understanding is that it is generally better to point to the official >> rules than to generate copies in each place or to add explanatory material >> that might unintentionally modify the interpretation. So maybe we should >> create a short CONTRIBUTING.md and request the IETF counsel to check it. > > I think that's the function of NOTE WELL, isn't it? > > Each WG might have additional information they want to add, so I don't think we could have each one be exactly the same, but maybe what we need is ( NOTE_WELL + ADDITIONAL_GITHUB_SPECIFICS? + WG_STUFF ). Sure, but the NOTE WELL is not a universal constant, and may change from time to time, which is why I used: This repository is for an IETF effort and falls under IETF rules: see http://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html Brian