From nobody Wed Jan 2 12:49:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F36130F06 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 12:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=HaVVQWzx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=pk2IOupa Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bqOAs-QudLRN for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 12:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DF3D1274D0 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 12:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F9813F1; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 02 Jan 2019 15:49:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=G Ic0lfhBPZUgs8wdYyZbGphm72E36QVqfEDVbj7OENQ=; b=HaVVQWzxRzEVnwW+Y xDI0ViVD+bbLrdX9WjTtUERL3jPbL9XXUh3TLVgSmnI8GAIdONqa57NNV1OxUh1Q iQnk7g9GQzS9Y/+5PjF85nU15ow4nK3S41OoJFKolbf2VMBc+ZWkMymFNwj1yM52 uNnFbjUE1mzgG0X1IVKVYLrXpQZkUFx1LBwLInFiflnHGJNwNgEH38iDZIfSdKB4 E3QgdG5QVcw5/b+sLpe2v2Xl/rNjKhJs6W3TH+1cclgDG4swSG19IiExqE83kaiU VoojEEuYVdicc0n61snkr1Ikni5dgVP2DMhcyqU6XHwBjnlh4fJ6HPSxRAXmEase 6JEyg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=GIc0lfhBPZUgs8wdYyZbGphm72E36QVqfEDVbj7OE NQ=; b=pk2IOupat7LwZZA9V1TlWj+lZtCkDW1BmZ+Isw3TCO0/e2Rvv42AgbhBk 5DpLTSYO+nJRskMYUB5R0o/2r+59S4TkH+pBHctIZ30S/tl5lla6zA/O7Ne5QcU/ FqMSmhf5ugztX6sbrkD5U1WI1fWEVlE2rRXFTn5MpL3FwdlBYtzDt9/LcdPyZcIv 3DkU7xzxfesc6mrMh0saT0YUaIXkx/YR8Aqbyjzg8N5ej6zBKw3lR8rMiEnADAEM yNEaIjyLOkywW8BJdiGm2C6Z1Qzpw2mRqyNBGzzd3a/dUI+MIriCiHfqf1XHMQiv EoU/jzo6i4SgB17aH0dt8zHGiSnIw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledrudeigddufeeiucdltddurdegtdekrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhht necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhi shhsrgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomh grihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdejieenucfrrghr rghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.76]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 80CF510107; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:49:15 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:49:13 -0500 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 20:49:19 -0000 Thanks to Martin for writing text and to everyone for your feedback. = Looks like this had settled pretty well before the holidays, so I have = stuck it in the datatracker: = . I=E2=80=99ll = initiate the IESG review to kick off the chartering process next week = unless I hear objections on this list. Note: I named this mailing list as the WG mailing list. But if people = would prefer to maintain a separate mailing list for the WG and use this = one for more general discussion (?), please say so and I can change it. Thanks, happy new year, Alissa= From nobody Wed Jan 2 13:31:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC2E1274D0 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 13:30:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJ2dY1h_RdxG for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 13:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x135.google.com (mail-it1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9522C126C01 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 13:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x135.google.com with SMTP id w18so42843158ite.1 for ; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 13:30:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=21ZtR+Ixuqa+28KXfjkFMYirR1N3wuXElsnDZaCDdns=; b=OS3lrfjiy/JDYeTVln7RWc14gp2mKAZfu6FOQRLzZA86AgRKh/CAg2QUggJ7fQLDN1 FsAueFNF2GUBnG56td6gnR3HTl+krbSDGgGVFaGgBHWDB8MgiPOp7VRqV9XIXEbnhgfT CKBKbaRtJ371bF5RpzrS+0UTvQsNNxgHWxUje5DTmJQt3zyD11RaPqOJqg9bceW/USLh SEqkZlOjjJYf9UoW90h74bnjxOzhkTAWXWaZI1XcaN95QdyYiVOyZVv+jy2Q9YaJYQUF p2ZIrKWvvZRpm5xmKAbg3inAETKfWsmqnrHAhrbUk2RHPffcpUhYdoSkKjxT/6FM6MFH Xojg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=21ZtR+Ixuqa+28KXfjkFMYirR1N3wuXElsnDZaCDdns=; b=DE0YbQCadaXZvZErmBzDYbFCBxqDLDVZBK24fHSL9SPyKt2ldf4j1FoRxZP+7QIOH8 IwtVjUMhTM06SEuyysi1UADpkZvAjNZZRdLiujSHCZVhN45x89Dj+lzC/a/AnRQfGSuQ JqMg7xPIkEXg6SW3MQBxQFSzAw0xfGgMVgTMpRf3TwxfcM6VQGXp1VYKu48czhrB6lNU YrLEQBI0C3ffLfjuJ1HLihy32Y+hY9qpfNMWBTo79Bl9prSsk4MyMIMlljYk7zpsLoye yklXaUYnzmaZ7pEi1mCHa1HSeynNt3/vdFMk8U7kMjYpSMr8dlHYhFIsN0LznbOgoyE/ I0XQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukepnpf8MmPSFnAmINXUVaGmcXlqtRya/DHUAin3e2iN2gd+nB2T d71DI8zrPeTuwAVitFEODpA5Kc+w X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7rRie5PBZBkeR2mfCV2aJKDR8VO4PUesnV9TKts82pDcFJKhyYafh60hhE0U9W25jG7kYFqg== X-Received: by 2002:a24:de87:: with SMTP id d129mr29583763itg.110.1546464650984; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 13:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.255.50] ([216.194.115.4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q16sm23931753ioi.66.2019.01.02.13.30.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Jan 2019 13:30:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_10FC2EEC-E4BD-45CF-B9FF-17B99A562600" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 14:30:47 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:30:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_10FC2EEC-E4BD-45CF-B9FF-17B99A562600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Martin, I really appreciate your comments and the manner and way you responded = to my concerns. I can go along with this, but I will try and keep = beating the drum of "ease of use" and "easy to follow/understand what is = going on". =20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Dec 30, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Martin Thomson = wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: >> Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait=20= >=20 > Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens = when they do. >=20 >> until a published draft is released to comment and then they are = told,=20 >> =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the = Github pull/ >> issue methods=E2=80=9D.=20 >=20 > That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra = context of those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I = would say that once that context has been assimilated, the working group = needs to be responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is = a new argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. >=20 > Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the = list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that = this will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. >=20 >> An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the=20= >> GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as = an=20 >> early draft we have some number of people say that it should have = been=20 >> Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved = to=20 >> do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then = they=20 >> may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for = Y.=20 >> We just need to be careful.=20 >=20 > One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on = documents as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues = that we've consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work = product is always open for changes. If the working group worked through = a contentious topic (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be = both well-documented and not made available for discussion, but most of = the rest is considered open. >=20 > That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a = discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I = think that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in = these cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if = there is new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" = might be the most polite approach. >=20 > This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an = aid to chairs. >=20 >> I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier = UI=20 >> for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples=20 >> suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other=20 >> suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration = of=20 >> prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We = just=20 >> need to be mindful of this, and be careful. >=20 > The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a = good amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without = installing git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just = suggests a business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing = that from happening. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_10FC2EEC-E4BD-45CF-B9FF-17B99A562600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Martin,

I = really appreciate your comments and the manner and way you responded to = my concerns. I can go along with this, but I will try and keep beating = the drum of "ease of use" and "easy to follow/understand what is going = on".   

Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Dec 30, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> = wrote:

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote:
Yes, but it is a bit of = a turn-off for people when they have to wait

Nit: they don't *have* to wait, = we're just talking about what happens when they do.

until a published draft = is released to comment and then they are told,
=E2=80=9Cwe = already talked about this and discussed it using the Github pull/
issue methods=E2=80=9D.

That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the = extra context of those discussions, more than a counter-argument. =  However, I would say that once that context has been assimilated, = the working group needs to be responsive to the arguments presented. =  That is, if there is a new argument, which can be the case, that = needs to be considered.

Anything truly = contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the list, or - worst = case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that this will happen = with something where the positions are firmly held.

An example.  A = hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the
GitHub issue / pull process to do X.  Then when it gets = released as an
early draft we have some number of people = say that it should have been
Y.  But the decision = has been made and rough consensus was achieved to
do X. =  However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then they =
may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could = have been for Y.
We just need to be careful.

One thing we've settled on in = this is a mode where consensus on documents as a whole is left to WGLC. =  There might be individual issues that we've consensus on (to = varying degrees), but the entire work product is always open for = changes.  If the working group worked through a contentious topic = (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented = and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is = considered open.

That said, there's a = social contract that says that you don't reopen a discussion = frivolously, even if you were not originally involved.  I think = that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these = cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there is = new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be = the most polite approach.

This area is = probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid to = chairs.

I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of = easier UI
for people to comment and make suggestions, and = see other peoples
suggestions and comment and then = suggest on top of those other
suggestions.  Github = is generally bad at this and true collaboration of
prose = text kind of requires this.  But I do not have a solution. We just =
need to be mindful of this, and be careful.

The GitHub tools could stand to = be improved here, but you can do a good amount of the commenting and = suggesting you describe without installing git.  The UI is perhaps = not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a business opportunity: = there's nothing inherently preventing that from happening.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github

= --Apple-Mail=_10FC2EEC-E4BD-45CF-B9FF-17B99A562600-- From nobody Wed Jan 2 15:41:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13D9129A87 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p2S29jTPV83F for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACB87124BE5 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id i20so28115153otl.0 for ; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jN0M3E65Cjj5eKn/7yihxOQi4RMfSp3xyVtvIF4sfjA=; b=c1fSpJwIcg88PLFhD8mMYFqouzvLnsXBEowrhFnoU0WLTguHTt2p7eLQjQsRkdOIW/ aGur0Dx4FLIMm4KGOszJxMUthhiPWRHXyaRU8EDXD8rE6UVFRAU9A4h3imLwjwamd8Ia bp4grfr99zce5wIdwcezJACRV6J2TCC5uWTIKh9ytwLZZ6A+NsxVe1kU8Gj+Yz4hgoj4 CSl9JVlzJSt2Dw880W5V0AWDWA7jOnIR06y74xxePmL++v9AAGnWzGB/QuR4LjVLVxjh Qok3fQ+BfpgZ2A2c/0THF/doyd1SXXu4MCwuIJxAvHJGGnNji9X3nRVf7r9cBooSm2zq FYMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jN0M3E65Cjj5eKn/7yihxOQi4RMfSp3xyVtvIF4sfjA=; b=ihD3U9ClLtS51eAw1BO6rOfBE4NGZGTIKZIKowt2QZIw84mT6txSKfC4JDyFslXZnp IvJgzr7gJ+FF57GdRnMOsmhvzgI4EtFQ+qFfMWabuzfwuZ5r207a8Yc0cRpXwWkqiH5M HUzBU72D0dqniaG+Vs8sxo/YXE66j90egI7EjW6/edFIY3uWJ8L06Z/fj+qtfKJMWN1T z/5LYl5oK+xIQ9MesRjUHBC7F0Q1pAiz3dqefmyGu37z63KlPczk74foxcWlcVDtMWuy wa9cS+CkdnuN6Q+Q/mzhnzFFiwrU/bvDvtjZqi+6HgRvV9SCmF5U9dzeus6n0YalkgC+ E/ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeuhW5aLDTjP/JIXqi7F5uqoP4NbHZLQnGb56gMMVq/Y+9kNCZV MIXJDKnnKPavNrONhtzhoZILw1eoRQiUrP2oY0jeLg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7RKLM00nwB0jGtrYP/aOvq6Wl143HXvmj8DUfXcCftVXss7ZOt4WAw9NuyREPrEX33Vj40uOhnpT/oEwbWAOE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7c86:: with SMTP id q6mr34134548otn.257.1546472491004; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Thomson Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:41:20 +1100 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 23:41:33 -0000 On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 7:49 AM Alissa Cooper wrote: > Note: I named this mailing list as the WG mailing list. But if people would prefer to maintain a separate mailing list for the WG and use this one for more general discussion (?), please say so and I can change it. This list is good. Thanks for getting this started. From nobody Thu Jan 3 22:06:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66072130F65 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 22:06:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DUFgXq2XpiD0 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 22:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E89C124D68 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 22:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x85-v6so31601191ljb.2 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 22:06:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9blDO/mH4OTJahII65du4JI6Lv3CRRajYPKM+Vp+aos=; b=c72+vJWm+0eqGdF3QfipJasuaUrTDfXp980AREdkva2NDUQoyPnhccfnP2nigCCljp FTxXGaF7xE+XGbdAEyrKdmFbMZJ0JAdsb1kFc4+FUoStUEEIIV+/jPR2cdg482koR8Kg riro6OI2ljsf9iIxXt3vEEeIAkJbl+1F8Jy0AaniSCUtYMbiEmmcIYamgnw4OJqg0sRR r/+oDmLbgQRIMbMJH8sy4Z8A35QJpxynNRgRlkA+d+JBT4bpGuBetVz033NpjScAEyBg fM2PbsAZnrGkItOeeEKBJwCX3MzLdF+u/giMqG3oCk+OFM6bKDdX63teRsphGhp1Mt73 Uu1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9blDO/mH4OTJahII65du4JI6Lv3CRRajYPKM+Vp+aos=; b=S5gRP+S7+u4LhVDj4YtKg8mn4AlcEdI94dHBZRueRsaGH1ppDTgEfUj8IPBftIJIuJ SuSu8rk+SVPTnYwX7mpUqGUJ9Vype2Bw/pqPAqOTxhJBFmShcUkietdt1bsAjhoSrqKH xaTC2nEx9FiYtsY+KXHv9+ysOvrycXT34UUkurGAMcAMMhl4fNJbGUf1p3PQvzZEfuEs V5t69o/r3K9DVbu1/hfmLI4B7iqnwNjXdJ99k7ckRn5AxvDAeJxj9VrFjmpWNSJcljXQ +3DcWpMuML9UxMTT7pVTGaxl9hLu31/yicOo+q2ImSZ56v9b2bjorQM1fx5Q2Vsp/i88 cxow== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZtRa506mVJrJODRI/sk4zRJ4B1cGREyzY5AVfHInr6BdgDUSqe dtBKnjfeXFvMeRSlw1CXFpjcs0MzClJcFQ1pbbFNtg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4+TgVLb3MIvUu47bfLQ7nmK5hDmeuNSdEcj7WFdXJ4yDKpSNo628ggC7DmkMrp9YZHEdbxVfEGqVd/SSsQNLQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:197:: with SMTP id f23-v6mr28349123lji.144.1546582006653; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 22:06:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:06:33 -0600 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001f695a057e9bafd1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 06:06:51 -0000 --0000000000001f695a057e9bafd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this topic, but feel I should chime in on one point. On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: > > Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait > > Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens whe= n > they do. > > > until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told, > > =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the Github= pull/ > > issue methods=E2=80=9D. > > That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra context o= f > those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would say th= at > once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be > responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new > argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. > > Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the > list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that thi= s > will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. > > > An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the > > GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as an > > early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been > > Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved to > > do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then they > > may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y. > > We just need to be careful. > > One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on documents > as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that we've > consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is always > open for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious topi= c > (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented > and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is considered > open. > > That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a > discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I thin= k > that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these > cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there is > new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be th= e > most polite approach. > > This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid > to chairs. > Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some less contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :) Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director for QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking for "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at the interim" posts. These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, document authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a responsibility to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much need for chairs to intervene. I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, and picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't pick the editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So we have an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off. It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a flawless technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But no one has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in github AND objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I think we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, +1 on Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on gathering and sharing experience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working group that picks up github. When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the late 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out of order" into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, at all. Spencer > I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI > > for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples > > suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other > > suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration of > > prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We jus= t > > need to be mindful of this, and be careful. > > The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a good > amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installing > git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a > business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from > happening. > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --0000000000001f695a057e9bafd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm enjoying watching people work thr= ough important details on this topic, but feel I should chime in on one poi= nt.=C2=A0

On Sun, Dec = 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote:
> Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait <= br>
Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happe= ns when they do.

> until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told,=
> =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the Githu= b pull/
> issue methods=E2=80=9D.

That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra context of = those discussions, more than a counter-argument.=C2=A0 However, I would say= that once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be= responsive to the arguments presented.=C2=A0 That is, if there is a new ar= gument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered.

Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the = list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that t= his will happen with something where the positions are firmly held.

> An example.=C2=A0 A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through= the
> GitHub issue / pull process to do X.=C2=A0 Then when it gets released = as an
> early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been=
> Y.=C2=A0 But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achiev= ed to
> do X.=C2=A0 However, if their comments would have come in earlier, the= n they
> may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y.=
> We just need to be careful.

One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on documen= ts as a whole is left to WGLC.=C2=A0 There might be individual issues that = we've consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is= always open for changes.=C2=A0 If the working group worked through a conte= ntious topic (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both w= ell-documented and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest = is considered open.

That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reope= n a discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved.=C2=A0= I think that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little i= n these cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if the= re is new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away&quo= t; might be the most polite approach.

This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid to= chairs.

Speaking as the responsible Sp= in Bit Area Director (along with some less contentious work on transport pr= otocols, hardly worth mentioning :)=C2=A0

Yeah, th= is can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director for QUIC= , I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking for "= ;but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at th= e interim" posts.=C2=A0

These situations do h= appen. In the recent cases I've observed, document authors recognized t= hat there was an educational task, and a responsibility to listen to object= ions and filter for NEW concerns, without much need for chairs to intervene= .=C2=A0

I was pretty sure this kind of thing would= happen from time to time, and picked chairs who I trusted to intervene whe= n necessary. I didn't pick the editors, but the chairs picked editors w= ho have been responsive. So we have an existence proof that it's possib= le to pull this off.

It may be that we're talk= ing about a workflow we can't engineer a flawless technique to handle, = and we just have to work through the bumps. But no one has talked to me abo= ut concerns that decisions were happening in github AND objections were bei= ng ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I think we can work throug= h most bumps, based on that experience. So,=C2=A0+1 on Martin's "s= ocial contract", on all sides, and=C2=A0+1 on gathering and sharing ex= perience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working gro= up that picks up github.=C2=A0

When Jeff Schiller = was doing the new chair training sessions in the late 1990s, he drummed &qu= ot;new and valid technical concerns are never out of order" into me pr= etty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, at all.=C2=A0=

Spencer

> I am suggesting that it would be nice if = we had some sort of easier UI
> for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples
> suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other
> suggestions.=C2=A0 Github is generally bad at this and true collaborat= ion of
> prose text kind of requires this.=C2=A0 But I do not have a solution. = We just
> need to be mindful of this, and be careful.

The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a good amo= unt of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installing git.= =C2=A0 The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a bus= iness opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from happ= ening.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--0000000000001f695a057e9bafd1-- From nobody Fri Jan 4 09:45:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19969130E62 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:45:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P43RcxuzW6dG for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2b.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 558D4130E5B for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2b.google.com with SMTP id h193so14795393ywc.4 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 09:45:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=zeCfIGZZuUATuz2YBzcHGJzBFNc6biEQcLqTHIvvivg=; b=Snx3UH5GO6Kuzh8MLFKxYYK3mxyYhW2mgR8OJvTtNAAq3dRDdCh+qgknsTNL8nE7vQ vBGXU3A3itkdUP7rXniKAKw5IW4wjUU9qZlBcoCp2AlBUXpRpRmGrlcSJzGhCWJErRli Kfg0hGtGbyh4IyI2TE2OBuGsdFUv+JGF0l6H7jYb4l8iHO9ZOF+TZx3lb1P7WwNs96GU YwhkHiJlcwqnOQ3/VtSoFpzQdcB2CyAqpSgsrr//E1NyJpjJ/1zB4TunqkhdI3yAm+gt zZgLQG9xlnUU1XXuTCuFfAk19P2BSDOoJ6cW2+myccRXsBXg7WGKpTk9Bl2gPGleM7nd Pv5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=zeCfIGZZuUATuz2YBzcHGJzBFNc6biEQcLqTHIvvivg=; b=KivknOCUGYjz7CgMkx+o1WQRyQItn9duidFnyGuWgIMUZgJFMdtTxGPkyQ3S5dhkmW SO7bsCQi0le5mSoaX0/wEZokB107FGWcf8e4v7pJt2MLv1a7k/iuT9F9dqLfYJQnB3MT 6r9K0buiYHaWIu5tq2GbmskKvX2jcln1Z5rv2+t2VnSA8Jf5TE5cnxjHgxSFsIAORGEv 3x5wok5xfNkji4s8lMdeJ9re6pGLSgpmuJkMf7bMZQKKsT+iU3qYAOncxrt+cxt38bT3 eN95T4j6VdH5uQfeG9K5XlkTqABK9MrdPry2QCPzuXpkMxHpr+TPvRwkd7GqY6Wr17sf k3zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbQgReKtBtW8qti1ROv3dLo5VhI/AfkiORsunLUt/46TAdLbSWC gAjKbOVv0JgzvG2CUWQjasw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XUbMV/uW6d6hLXBamaFZ29xTemltbye2ab8ABiDVmILG7EuM2ZjETmBwxUGlk/hEPNzi5V1w== X-Received: by 2002:a81:b306:: with SMTP id r6mr54856913ywh.512.1546623940527; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 09:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:7430:9185:4999:1c3b? ([2605:a601:a028:986:7430:9185:4999:1c3b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y16sm21743130ywg.35.2019.01.04.09.45.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 04 Jan 2019 09:45:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <9092E905-3534-4B8F-B7DB-CD06FD0C8559@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_290AFB58-B782-4818-8EBF-4A8C6467B429" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 10:45:35 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 17:45:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_290AFB58-B782-4818-8EBF-4A8C6467B429 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Great comments Spencer. Being cordial and professional is always key. = Listening to others opinions and points of view is critical to building = solid standards that get adopted en mass. If we can all just keep that = mindset and realize that other people=E2=80=99s use-cases are valid, = even if we personally do not like them, I think we can really take a = step forward. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Jan 3, 2019, at 11:06 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this = topic, but feel I should chime in on one point.=20 >=20 > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson > wrote: > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: > > Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait=20= >=20 > Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens = when they do. >=20 > > until a published draft is released to comment and then they are = told,=20 > > =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the = Github pull/ > > issue methods=E2=80=9D.=20 >=20 > That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra = context of those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I = would say that once that context has been assimilated, the working group = needs to be responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is = a new argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. >=20 > Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the = list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that = this will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. >=20 > > An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through = the=20 > > GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as = an=20 > > early draft we have some number of people say that it should have = been=20 > > Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved = to=20 > > do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then = they=20 > > may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for = Y.=20 > > We just need to be careful.=20 >=20 > One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on = documents as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues = that we've consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work = product is always open for changes. If the working group worked through = a contentious topic (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be = both well-documented and not made available for discussion, but most of = the rest is considered open. >=20 > That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a = discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I = think that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in = these cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if = there is new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" = might be the most polite approach. >=20 > This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an = aid to chairs. >=20 > Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some = less contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :)=20= >=20 > Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director = for QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully = looking for "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this = at the interim" posts.=20 >=20 > These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, = document authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a = responsibility to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, = without much need for chairs to intervene..=20 >=20 > I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, = and picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't = pick the editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been = responsive. So we have an existence proof that it's possible to pull = this off. >=20 > It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a = flawless technique to handle, and we just have to work through the = bumps. But no one has talked to me about concerns that decisions were = happening in github AND objections were being ignored on the mailing = list, at any point, so I think we can work through most bumps, based on = that experience. So, +1 on Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and = +1 on gathering and sharing experience so we don't have to relearn these = lessons in every working group that picks up github.=20 >=20 > When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the = late 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out = of order" into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes = that, at all.=20 >=20 > Spencer >=20 > > I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier = UI=20 > > for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples=20 > > suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other=20 > > suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration = of=20 > > prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We = just=20 > > need to be mindful of this, and be careful. >=20 > The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a = good amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without = installing git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just = suggests a business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing = that from happening. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github = > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github = --Apple-Mail=_290AFB58-B782-4818-8EBF-4A8C6467B429 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Great= comments Spencer. Being cordial and professional is always key. =  Listening to others opinions and points of view is critical to = building solid standards that get adopted en mass.   If we can all = just keep that mindset and realize that other people=E2=80=99s use-cases = are valid, even if we personally do not like them, I think we can really = take a step forward.


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Jan 3, 2019, at 11:06 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm enjoying watching people work through = important details on this topic, but feel I should chime in on one = point. 

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson = <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
On Mon, Dec = 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote:
> Yes, but it is = a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait 

Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what = happens when they do.

> until a = published draft is released to comment and then they are told, 
> =E2=80=9C= we already talked about this and discussed it using the Github pull/
> issue methods=E2=80=9D. 

That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the = extra context of those discussions, more than a counter-argument.  = However, I would say that once that context has been assimilated, the = working group needs to be responsive to the arguments presented.  = That is, if there is a new argument, which can be the case, that needs = to be considered.

Anything truly = contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the list, or - worst = case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that this will happen = with something where the positions are firmly held.

> An example.  A hotly discussed topic gets rough = consensus through the 
> GitHub = issue / pull process to do X.  Then when it gets released as = an 
> = early draft we have some number of people say that it should have = been 
>= Y.  But the decision has been made and rough consensus was = achieved to 
> do X.  However, if their comments would have come = in earlier, then they 
> may = have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y. 
> We just = need to be careful. 

One thing we've settled on in this is a mode = where consensus on documents as a whole is left to WGLC.  There = might be individual issues that we've consensus on (to varying degrees), = but the entire work product is always open for changes.  If the = working group worked through a contentious topic (QUIC spin bit, I'm = looking at you), that should be both well-documented and not made = available for discussion, but most of the rest is considered open.

That said, there's a social contract that says = that you don't reopen a discussion frivolously, even if you were not = originally involved.  I think that it's OK for the rest of the = group to push back a little in these cases, though doing so from the = perspective of trying to see if there is new information about the = problem, rather than as a "go away" might be the most polite = approach.

This area is probably something = that needs some documentation, as an aid to chairs.

Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along = with some less contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth = mentioning :) 

Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area = director for QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty = carefully looking for "but we talked about this in github"/"but we = agreed on this at the interim" posts. 

These situations do happen. In the = recent cases I've observed, document authors recognized that there was = an educational task, and a responsibility to listen to objections and = filter for NEW concerns, without much need for chairs to = intervene.. 

I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time = to time, and picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I = didn't pick the editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been = responsive. So we have an existence proof that it's possible to pull = this off.

It = may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a flawless = technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But no = one has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in = github AND objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any = point, so I think we can work through most bumps, based on that = experience. So, +1 on Martin's "social contract", on all sides, = and +1 on gathering and sharing experience so we don't have to = relearn these lessons in every working group that picks up = github. 

When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions = in the late 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are = never out of order" into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using = github changes that, at all. 

Spencer

> I am = suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI 
> for = people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples 
> = suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other 
> = suggestions.  Github is generally bad at this and true = collaboration of 
> prose text kind of requires this.  But I do not = have a solution. We just 
> need to = be mindful of this, and be careful.

The = GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a good = amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installing = git.  The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just = suggests a business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing = that from happening.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github
_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing = list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github
=

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That would make it much easier for a re-discussion to be resolved, for example if the issue comes up in WGLC or IETF LC. "We settled that because X" is a much better response than "We already settled that." Brian On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this top= ic, > but feel I should chime in on one point. >=20 > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson wro= te: >=20 >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: >>> Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait >> >> Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens = when >> they do. >> >>> until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told= , >>> =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the Gith= ub pull/ >>> issue methods=E2=80=9D. >> >> That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra contex= t of >> those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would say= that >> once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be >> responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new >> argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. >> >> Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the= >> list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that = this >> will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. >> >>> An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the= >>> GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as a= n >>> early draft we have some number of people say that it should have bee= n >>> Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved t= o >>> do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then th= ey >>> may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y= =2E >>> We just need to be careful. >> >> One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on docume= nts >> as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that we'= ve >> consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is alwa= ys >> open for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious t= opic >> (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both well-document= ed >> and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is conside= red >> open. >> >> That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a= >> discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I t= hink >> that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these >> cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there = is >> new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be= the >> most polite approach. >> >> This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an a= id >> to chairs. >> >=20 > Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some les= s > contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :) >=20 > Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director = for > QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking f= or > "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at the inte= rim" > posts. >=20 > These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, document= > authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a responsibi= lity > to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much need = for > chairs to intervene. >=20 > I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, an= d > picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't pick = the > editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So we = have > an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off. >=20 > It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a flawl= ess > technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But no= one > has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in github= AND > objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I t= hink > we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, +1 on > Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on gathering and shari= ng > experience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working g= roup > that picks up github. >=20 > When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the lat= e > 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out of or= der" > into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, at = all. >=20 > Spencer >=20 >> I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI= >>> for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples >>> suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other >>> suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration = of >>> prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We j= ust >>> need to be mindful of this, and be careful. >> >> The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a goo= d >> amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installin= g >> git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a= >> business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from >> happening. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >> >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >=20 From nobody Fri Jan 4 11:38:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD04130E85 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:38:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mg9LIEMpPjzX for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 244F1130E8E for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com with SMTP id g75so14932879ywb.1 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 11:38:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=y04Fd76vug6/vPs3v0CxWdH/pEPlxHNrehrfeDmPtMs=; b=eeQM9zci8BGTNqtGwO5m202CbfTBrGRE9BGQSvy2jgcLo8NIvGMghLBiICDXq87CaQ zCDCnBL36uar5ISaMwmv96WArcwGWaS1gJnaIDLQOlaFyEj6pt6LRYp/RoDJ/gQxhbTB cHI6KQWRUrYsNeocHvMlNvpP3bmCBWk5xcWlbglKZJgpYbVX3SgoOpW0tGt7nJbETLhD EnqJPzG7lbTnTchpmHNSB8iUzy+pYjLBKg8JI44ijYTcv27xT8Qw1zbx6D+ikKEgo/gK ZePm2SQ/jj62gKXModLDCxGGIHrE8mv/CvNIjWKMWUVf0bucnPyXbE0bbmT/937Y0n79 A7lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=y04Fd76vug6/vPs3v0CxWdH/pEPlxHNrehrfeDmPtMs=; b=EeB8DURMWOowepfyNuGG1rhT8hAmpIQiyAhm2AJ1TJEcOdXXrt/XXwoP8FnHqYi8n+ bzu6N5z0f3Z443IUGwlLdsao3QDzD+NkGn59onhFBunkSHsHsji6TtgzV/WYoA4j31KI Cdv/rOaugtcxGF6x5D30sdkM7F8CE/Iu3Dj6YJbuwiTEsN1vI4TtjIcGkToIxu8kfgtO J1KE6X4LcU9rxVhyxbyTuC+qLNZ8LbRJYMba5jQXD64bWXcWkvgQN3FxMxgyOIDbb4WA 3Z4VBAPVAK6hoW2aLSlDOkhz42MZ/yKMMv1SxxeCTW39iO8M5rd3cJ/KZCBKM5eDRP+p 07yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZ5Yq4zx9m9nfS+/oFbxAi0nzcynw/qQ8nLGDst8IaaO1IxQ8Sf UFFOITyqIYOJbo3Hrg5oNaVrtrtM X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Vu5muW+VLUPPpwaD7ypjx/VcAgf5jZ3QnFNZ13xzcDwzQ6/Iqj4OYW45YxzP89VBgUgWVuWQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:69c6:: with SMTP id e189mr53441248ywc.6.1546630712397; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 11:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:7430:9185:4999:1c3b? ([2605:a601:a028:986:7430:9185:4999:1c3b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k62sm38154357ywk.84.2019.01.04.11.38.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 04 Jan 2019 11:38:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6B2BDB74-C3A8-4C56-B5B1-F3A349AB7DA5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 12:38:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 19:38:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6B2BDB74-C3A8-4C56-B5B1-F3A349AB7DA5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes but we need to be careful here. If we settled it via the Github = Issue discussion where 30 people participated and 10 were against and 20 = were for the change (thus we had rough consensus) and then it goes to = WGLC or IETF LC and we get 5+ people against it (and no new people for = it), that would mean that we did NOT have rough consensus as the numbers = would be more like 20 to 15+ =20 I know we like to =E2=80=9Cthink=E2=80=9D that we do not vote here in = the IETF, but the reality is that we do at some level. We try to hide = that by =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D during a meeting. But we always say = that we will take things back to the list for final review. If people = speak up on the list, they are effectively voting and not =E2=80=9Chumming= =E2=80=9D, meaning they are now being singled out. So perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response to the = thread (like you said) here is the decision we came to, here is why we = came to that decision, here were the number of people that supported it = and here are the number of people against it (along with their views).=20= We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus in the end, if = at the end we do not have it. This will require editors, chairs, and ADs = to carefully monitor things and error on the side of understanding. So = all in all, I am just asking that we be mindful, patient, and = understanding.=20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > +1 to Spencer, but I suggest that one mitigation that we could > encourage is that when a Git issue is resolved, the final comment > on the issue should summarise the rationale for the decision. > That would make it much easier for a re-discussion to be resolved, > for example if the issue comes up in WGLC or IETF LC. >=20 > "We settled that because X" is a much better response than "We already > settled that." >=20 > Brian >=20 > On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >> I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this = topic, >> but feel I should chime in on one point. >>=20 >> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson = wrote: >>=20 >>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: >>>> Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to = wait >>>=20 >>> Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what = happens when >>> they do. >>>=20 >>>> until a published draft is released to comment and then they are = told, >>>> =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the = Github pull/ >>>> issue methods=E2=80=9D. >>>=20 >>> That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra = context of >>> those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would = say that >>> once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to = be >>> responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new >>> argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. >>>=20 >>> Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting = the >>> list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare = that this >>> will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. >>>=20 >>>> An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through = the >>>> GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as = an >>>> early draft we have some number of people say that it should have = been >>>> Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved = to >>>> do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then = they >>>> may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for = Y. >>>> We just need to be careful. >>>=20 >>> One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on = documents >>> as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that = we've >>> consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is = always >>> open for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious = topic >>> (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both = well-documented >>> and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is = considered >>> open. >>>=20 >>> That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen = a >>> discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I = think >>> that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in = these >>> cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if = there is >>> new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might = be the >>> most polite approach. >>>=20 >>> This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an = aid >>> to chairs. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some = less >> contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :) >>=20 >> Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area = director for >> QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking = for >> "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at the = interim" >> posts. >>=20 >> These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, = document >> authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a = responsibility >> to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much = need for >> chairs to intervene. >>=20 >> I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, = and >> picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't = pick the >> editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So = we have >> an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off. >>=20 >> It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a = flawless >> technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But = no one >> has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in = github AND >> objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I = think >> we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, +1 on >> Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on gathering and = sharing >> experience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working = group >> that picks up github. >>=20 >> When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the = late >> 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out of = order" >> into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, = at all. >>=20 >> Spencer >>=20 >>> I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier = UI >>>> for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples >>>> suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other >>>> suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true = collaboration of >>>> prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We = just >>>> need to be mindful of this, and be careful. >>>=20 >>> The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a = good >>> amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without = installing >>> git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests = a >>> business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that = from >>> happening. >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ietf-and-github mailing list >>> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_6B2BDB74-C3A8-4C56-B5B1-F3A349AB7DA5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Yes = but we need to be careful here.  If we settled it via the Github = Issue discussion where 30 people participated and 10 were against and 20 = were for the change (thus we had rough consensus) and then it goes to = WGLC or IETF LC and we get 5+ people against it (and no new people for = it), that would mean that we did NOT have rough consensus as the numbers = would be more like 20 to 15+  

I know we like to =E2=80=9Cthink=E2=80=9D= that we do not vote here in the IETF, but the reality is that we do at = some level. We try to hide that by =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D during a = meeting.  But we always say that we will take things back to the = list for final review. If people speak up on the list, they are = effectively voting and not =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D, meaning they are = now being singled out.

So perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response = to the thread (like you said) here is the decision we came to, here is = why we came to that decision, here were the number of people that = supported it and here are the number of people against it (along with = their views). 

We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus in = the end, if at the end we do not have it. This will require editors, = chairs, and ADs to carefully monitor things and error on the side of = understanding.  So all in all, I am just asking that we be mindful, = patient, and understanding. 


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 = to Spencer, but I suggest that one mitigation that we could
encourage is that when a Git issue is resolved, the final = comment
on the issue should summarise the rationale for = the decision.
That would make it much easier for a = re-discussion to be resolved,
for example if the issue = comes up in WGLC or IETF LC.

"We settled = that because X" is a much better response than "We already
settled that."

=   Brian

On 2019-01-04 19:06, = Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
I'm enjoying watching people work through important details = on this topic,
but feel I should chime in on one point.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin = Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at = 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote:
Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have = to wait

Nit: they don't *have* = to wait, we're just talking about what happens when
they = do.

until a published draft is released to comment and then they = are told,
=E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and = discussed it using the Github pull/
issue methods=E2=80=9D.<= br class=3D"">

That is a valid first response = - as a way to bring in the extra context of
those = discussions, more than a counter-argument.  However, I would say = that
once that context has been assimilated, the working = group needs to be
responsive to the arguments presented. =  That is, if there is a new
argument, which can be = the case, that needs to be considered.

Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without = consulting the
list, or - worst case - spending = face-to-face time, so it's rare that this
will happen with = something where the positions are firmly held.

An example.  A = hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the
GitHub issue / pull process to do X.  Then when it gets = released as an
early draft we have some number of people = say that it should have been
Y.  But the decision has = been made and rough consensus was achieved to
do X. =  However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then = they
may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could = have been for Y.
We just need to be careful.

One thing we've settled on in = this is a mode where consensus on documents
as a whole is = left to WGLC.  There might be individual issues that we've
consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work = product is always
open for changes.  If the working = group worked through a contentious topic
(QUIC spin bit, = I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented
and= not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is = considered
open.

That said, = there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a
discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally = involved.  I think
that it's OK for the rest of the = group to push back a little in these
cases, though doing = so from the perspective of trying to see if there is
new = information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be = the
most polite approach.

This = area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid
to chairs.


Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along = with some less
contentious work on transport protocols, = hardly worth mentioning :)

Yeah, this can = be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director for
QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully = looking for
"but we talked about this in github"/"but we = agreed on this at the interim"
posts.

These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've = observed, document
authors recognized that there was an = educational task, and a responsibility
to listen to = objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much need for
chairs to intervene.

I was = pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, and
picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I = didn't pick the
editors, but the chairs picked editors who = have been responsive. So we have
an existence proof that = it's possible to pull this off.

It may be = that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a flawless
technique to handle, and we just have to work through the = bumps. But no one
has talked to me about concerns that = decisions were happening in github AND
objections were = being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I think
we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, = +1 on
Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on = gathering and sharing
experience so we don't have to = relearn these lessons in every working group
that picks up = github.

When Jeff Schiller was doing the = new chair training sessions in the late
1990s, he drummed = "new and valid technical concerns are never out of order"
into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes = that, at all.

Spencer

I am suggesting that it = would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI
for people to comment and make suggestions, and = see other peoples
suggestions and comment and then suggest = on top of those other
suggestions.  Github is = generally bad at this and true collaboration of
prose text = kind of requires this.  But I do not have a solution. We just
need to be mindful of this, and be careful.

The GitHub tools could stand to = be improved here, but you can do a good
amount of the = commenting and suggesting you describe without installing
git.  The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that = just suggests a
business opportunity: there's nothing = inherently preventing that from
happening.
_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github



_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github


_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
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= --Apple-Mail=_6B2BDB74-C3A8-4C56-B5B1-F3A349AB7DA5-- From nobody Fri Jan 4 15:01:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CE9130EA2 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 15:01:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zTdBQNS8CLOL for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 15:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08CB6126BED for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 15:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v15-v6so33668626ljh.13 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:01:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3vnwho38v0hZCGhFGFGV/e0I6MtY4UNieaWV5l0lR/s=; b=Kj2S//28Qu5tT031w6FWUww+e1qfouPk3S3rO/ECvsa/aljTjS/bZYwJEh58Q+0dAv lZ9tVdtHvH8FJWtcbEByx0ypREitJZkXFoFAJWaigrexD6Sp/3X+ULyaPM4Kq6YJ95Sz bLyiUtTlIJ18QAN5fOV/n43xuav5CGzlCt42jkPPaqOGfSOoYMigqSYUuSsHw/GQnDdN 55/zX0dzTEn/RAKz6wo8QE3rTT/VslATHF/y38nYk8P8Zniu/BLRoDKty/+LOzyqQvoF 7ejpjosMWUCmxXkuT933MZp6QPPJHolCswPpluuBnBcT+LjZTSDNMlJWp3Exc+n30LUM l83Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3vnwho38v0hZCGhFGFGV/e0I6MtY4UNieaWV5l0lR/s=; b=ScDdx1U+uFkirvauJYUE8yIf2Nop5IPTi2L2WwkASn1W3aLUJoMYQzf+6gPIVpjSSf 9oF4lfL79VF0NIXiB/MZjS30mZFkFRnoKnboao9cxKiurm8CetsYzDQZfDAdRCdqKuNp IWk0cv+YtBDLptDNRobjKbqR6HBOHC9EzEa1U1/Yu36rG6WgPhP3DjZz6RgHLw6v7JYD OQGbY3SS1Hs4hg+fhCo/JmtVTz67ED30jnEer/bCfyYfpa5YTm/V2r87mD/etRh8SJ9J 0iDVnkRp+W5gpWVRa0i17MRYlTDjA5L5XexpXoNWUSNaE83KicFmCDLylF4+wjiWYCx9 g08g== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeDBxsP2r2DC1xA4K0Z4ktpkLD3OnFUSOBzv6qdWgF/zJdGqAFz nM9Lmj5t2vY1pt3a6rf1hdl6jv1s4TMdGiWZMPccZpmz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN42O6CAvhVPjM68fZEPHNXtn/mrblAU/cYYD5qOjiVHQQby4YzWJvurpYr4X1HJzEFFsrFmPrCO4Q0dC/20ZCE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9dcb:: with SMTP id x11-v6mr32765808ljj.158.1546642881058; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:01:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8FD5A085-A069-4928-8D84-68FE58237152@gmail.com> <7F98C4F9-9803-4883-A936-BE1450544872@cooperw.in> <3F27D4DC-DCE4-4FDB-94A5-C48101EC25FD@gmail.com> <37ABB8B9-50CF-4D13-8B40-BF51CA488D51@ericsson.com> <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 17:01:08 -0600 Message-ID: To: Bret Jordan Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000851ca8057ea9dbad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 23:01:27 -0000 --000000000000851ca8057ea9dbad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 1:38 PM Bret Jordan wrote: > Yes but we need to be careful here. If we settled it via the Github Issu= e > discussion where 30 people participated and 10 were against and 20 were f= or > the change (thus we had rough consensus) and then it goes to WGLC or IETF > LC and we get 5+ people against it (and no new people for it), that would > mean that we did NOT have rough consensus as the numbers would be more li= ke > 20 to 15+ > > I know we like to =E2=80=9Cthink=E2=80=9D that we do not vote here in the= IETF, but the > reality is that we do at some level. We try to hide that by =E2=80=9Chumm= ing=E2=80=9D > during a meeting. But we always say that we will take things back to the > list for final review. If people speak up on the list, they are effective= ly > voting and not =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D, meaning they are now being sing= led out. > > So perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response to the threa= d > (like you said) here is the decision we came to, here is why we came to > that decision, here were the number of people that supported it and here > are the number of people against it (along with their views). > > We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus in the end, if > at the end we do not have it. This will require editors, chairs, and ADs = to > carefully monitor things and error on the side of understanding. So all = in > all, I am just asking that we be mindful, patient, and understanding. > Right. ISTM that this conversation maps very well onto the Conflict Resolution and Appeals Process in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5. The QUIC working group, and the editors, have been responsive to mailing list concerns about directions that seemed fine in github and at interims. The community knows what to do next, if they get that wrong, and Section 6.5 is there for a reason - it's not surprising when someone catches a problem that other people haven't seen yet. Please check literally any IESG telechat's minutes and narrative minutes for worked examples of people noticing things that other people haven't seen yet, at https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/minutes/. It takes a village. Spencer > > > Thanks, > Bret > PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 > "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that > can not be unscrambled is an egg." > > On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > +1 to Spencer, but I suggest that one mitigation that we could > encourage is that when a Git issue is resolved, the final comment > on the issue should summarise the rationale for the decision. > That would make it much easier for a re-discussion to be resolved, > for example if the issue comes up in WGLC or IETF LC. > > "We settled that because X" is a much better response than "We already > settled that." > > Brian > > On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this topic= , > but feel I should chime in on one point. > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson wrote= : > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: > > Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait > > > Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens whe= n > they do. > > until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told, > =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the Github p= ull/ > issue methods=E2=80=9D. > > > That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra context o= f > those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would say th= at > once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be > responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new > argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. > > Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the > list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that thi= s > will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. > > An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the > GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as an > early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been > Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved to > do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then they > may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y. > We just need to be careful. > > > One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on documents > as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that we've > consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is always > open for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious topi= c > (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented > and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is considered > open. > > That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a > discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I thin= k > that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these > cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there is > new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be th= e > most polite approach. > > This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid > to chairs. > > > Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some less > contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :) > > Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director fo= r > QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking for > "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at the interi= m" > posts. > > These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, document > authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a responsibili= ty > to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much need fo= r > chairs to intervene. > > I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, and > picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't pick th= e > editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So we ha= ve > an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off. > > It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a flawles= s > technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But no o= ne > has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in github A= ND > objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I thi= nk > we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, +1 on > Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on gathering and sharing > experience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working gro= up > that picks up github. > > When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the late > 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out of orde= r" > into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, at al= l. > > Spencer > > I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI > > for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples > suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other > suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration of > prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We just > need to be mindful of this, and be careful. > > > The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a good > amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installing > git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a > business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from > happening. > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > --000000000000851ca8057ea9dbad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 1= :38 PM Bret Jordan <jordan.ietf= @gmail.com> wrote:
Yes but we need to be = careful here.=C2=A0 If we settled it via the Github Issue discussion where = 30 people participated and 10 were against and 20 were for the change (thus= we had rough consensus) and then it goes to WGLC or IETF LC and we get 5+ = people against it (and no new people for it), that would mean that we did N= OT have rough consensus as the numbers would be more like 20 to 15+ =C2=A0<= div>
I know we like to =E2=80=9Cthink=E2=80=9D that we do not= vote here in the IETF, but the reality is that we do at some level. We try= to hide that by =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D during a meeting.=C2=A0 But we a= lways say that we will take things back to the list for final review. If pe= ople speak up on the list, they are effectively voting and not =E2=80=9Chum= ming=E2=80=9D, meaning they are now being singled out.

=
So perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response to the th= read (like you said) here is the decision we came to, here is why we came t= o that decision, here were the number of people that supported it and here = are the number of people against it (along with their views).=C2=A0

We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus= in the end, if at the end we do not have it. This will require editors, ch= airs, and ADs to carefully monitor things and error on the side of understa= nding.=C2=A0 So all in all, I am just asking that we be mindful, patient, a= nd understanding.=C2=A0

Rig= ht. ISTM that this conversation maps very well onto the Conflict Resolution= and Appeals Process in=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5. The QUIC= working group, and the editors, have been responsive to mailing list conce= rns about directions that seemed fine in github and at interims. The commun= ity knows what to do next, if they get that wrong, and Section 6.5 is there= for a reason - it's not surprising when someone catches a problem that= other people haven't seen yet.=C2=A0

Please c= heck literally any IESG telechat's minutes and narrative minutes for wo= rked examples of people noticing things that other people haven't seen = yet, at=C2=A0ht= tps://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/minutes/. It takes a village.=C2= =A0

Spencer


Thanks,
Bret
= PGP Fingerprint:=C2=A063B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 =C2=A0F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 00= 50
&qu= ot;Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that c= an not be unscrambled is an egg."

On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 to Spencer, but= I suggest that one mitigation that we could
encourage is that when a Gi= t issue is resolved, the final comment
on the issue should summarise the= rationale for the decision.
That would make it much easier for a re-dis= cussion to be resolved,
for example if the issue comes up in WGLC or IET= F LC.

"We settled that because X" is a much better respons= e than "We already
settled that."

=C2=A0=C2=A0Brian
On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
I'm enjoying watching people work through important details = on this topic,
but feel I should chime in on one point.

On Sun, D= ec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote:
Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they = have to wait

Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we'= ;re just talking about what happens when
they do.

until a published draft is released to comment and then they are= told,
=E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the = Github pull/
issue methods=E2=80=9D.

That is a valid= first response - as a way to bring in the extra context of
those discus= sions, more than a counter-argument.=C2=A0 However, I would say that
onc= e that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be
respo= nsive to the arguments presented.=C2=A0 That is, if there is a new
argum= ent, which can be the case, that needs to be considered.

Anything tr= uly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the
list, or= - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that this
w= ill happen with something where the positions are firmly held.

An example.=C2=A0 A hotly discussed topic gets rough c= onsensus through the
GitHub issue / pull process to do X.=C2=A0 Then whe= n it gets released as an
early draft we have some number of people say t= hat it should have been
Y.=C2=A0 But the decision has been made and roug= h consensus was achieved to
do X.=C2=A0 However, if their comments would= have come in earlier, then they
may have tilted the balance and rough c= onsensus could have been for Y.
We just need to be careful.

One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on= documents
as a whole is left to WGLC.=C2=A0 There might be individual i= ssues that we've
consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire w= ork product is always
open for changes.=C2=A0 If the working group worke= d through a contentious topic
(QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), t= hat should be both well-documented
and not made available for discussion= , but most of the rest is considered
open.

That said, there's= a social contract that says that you don't reopen a
discussion friv= olously, even if you were not originally involved.=C2=A0 I think
that it= 's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these
cases= , though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there is
new = information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might b= e the
most polite approach.

This area is probably something that = needs some documentation, as an aid
to chairs.


S= peaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some less
= contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :)

= Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director = for
QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully lookin= g for
"but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed= on this at the interim"
posts.

These situations do happen. = In the recent cases I've observed, document
authors recognized that = there was an educational task, and a responsibility
to listen to objecti= ons and filter for NEW concerns, without much need for
chairs to interve= ne.

I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to t= ime, and
picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn= 't pick the
editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been res= ponsive. So we have
an existence proof that it's possible to pull th= is off.

It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can'= ;t engineer a flawless
technique to handle, and we just have to work thr= ough the bumps. But no one
has talked to me about concerns that decision= s were happening in github AND
objections were being ignored on the mail= ing list, at any point, so I think
we can work through most bumps, based= on that experience. So, +1 on
Martin's "social contract",= on all sides, and +1 on gathering and sharing
experience so we don'= t have to relearn these lessons in every working group
that picks up git= hub.

When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in= the late
1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are n= ever out of order"
into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think usi= ng github changes that, at all.

Spencer

I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI=
for people to comment and make suggestions, a= nd see other peoples
suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of = those other
suggestions.=C2=A0 Github is generally bad at this and true = collaboration of
prose text kind of requires this.=C2=A0 But I do not ha= ve a solution. We just
need to be mindful of this, and be careful.

The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you ca= n do a good
amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without= installing
git.=C2=A0 The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that = just suggests a
business opportunity: there's nothing inherently pre= venting that from
happening.

____________________________________= ___________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github



_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-gi= thub mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/ietf-and-github


___________________= ____________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github<= br>

=
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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR0101MB2960 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 00:50:06 -0000 On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 05:01:08PM -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 1:38 PM Bret Jordan wrote: > > > Yes but we need to be careful here. If we settled it via the Github Issue > > discussion where 30 people participated and 10 were against and 20 were for > > the change (thus we had rough consensus) and then it goes to WGLC or IETF > > LC and we get 5+ people against it (and no new people for it), that would > > mean that we did NOT have rough consensus as the numbers would be more like > > 20 to 15+ > > > > I know we like to “think” that we do not vote here in the IETF, but the > > reality is that we do at some level. We try to hide that by “humming” > > during a meeting. But we always say that we will take things back to the > > list for final review. If people speak up on the list, they are effectively > > voting and not “humming”, meaning they are now being singled out. > > > > So perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response to the thread > > (like you said) here is the decision we came to, here is why we came to > > that decision, here were the number of people that supported it and here > > are the number of people against it (along with their views). > > > > We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus in the end, if > > at the end we do not have it. This will require editors, chairs, and ADs to > > carefully monitor things and error on the side of understanding. So all in > > all, I am just asking that we be mindful, patient, and understanding. > > > > Right. ISTM that this conversation maps very well onto the Conflict > Resolution and Appeals Process in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5. The QUIC working group, > and the editors, have been responsive to mailing list concerns about > directions that seemed fine in github and at interims. The community knows Indeed, and I would hope that anything that had 10 people against and 20 for in a github issue would be taking to the list (and maybe in person) before the chairs thought it was anywhere close to finalized! -Ben > what to do next, if they get that wrong, and Section 6.5 is there for a > reason - it's not surprising when someone catches a problem that other > people haven't seen yet. > > Please check literally any IESG telechat's minutes and narrative minutes > for worked examples of people noticing things that other people haven't > seen yet, at https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/minutes/. It takes a > village. > > Spencer > > > > > > > Thanks, > > Bret > > PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 > > "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that > > can not be unscrambled is an egg." > > > > On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > +1 to Spencer, but I suggest that one mitigation that we could > > encourage is that when a Git issue is resolved, the final comment > > on the issue should summarise the rationale for the decision. > > That would make it much easier for a re-discussion to be resolved, > > for example if the issue comes up in WGLC or IETF LC. > > > > "We settled that because X" is a much better response than "We already > > settled that." > > > > Brian > > > > On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > > > I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this topic, > > but feel I should chime in on one point. > > > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: > > > > Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait > > > > > > Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens when > > they do. > > > > until a published draft is released to comment and then they are told, > > “we already talked about this and discussed it using the Github pull/ > > issue methods”. > > > > > > That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra context of > > those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would say that > > once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be > > responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new > > argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. > > > > Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the > > list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare that this > > will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. > > > > An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the > > GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as an > > early draft we have some number of people say that it should have been > > Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved to > > do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then they > > may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for Y. > > We just need to be careful. > > > > > > One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on documents > > as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that we've > > consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is always > > open for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious topic > > (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented > > and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is considered > > open. > > > > That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a > > discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I think > > that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in these > > cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if there is > > new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be the > > most polite approach. > > > > This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid > > to chairs. > > > > > > Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some less > > contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :) > > > > Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area director for > > QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking for > > "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at the interim" > > posts. > > > > These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, document > > authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a responsibility > > to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much need for > > chairs to intervene. > > > > I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, and > > picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't pick the > > editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So we have > > an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off. > > > > It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a flawless > > technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But no one > > has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in github AND > > objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so I think > > we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, +1 on > > Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on gathering and sharing > > experience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working group > > that picks up github. > > > > When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the late > > 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out of order" > > into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, at all. > > > > Spencer > > > > I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier UI > > > > for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples > > suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other > > suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration of > > prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We just > > need to be mindful of this, and be careful. > > > > > > The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a good > > amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without installing > > git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a > > business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from > > happening. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-and-github mailing list > > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-and-github mailing list > > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-and-github mailing list > > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Fri Jan 4 18:08:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B53130DD1 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:08:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtLJY3v3M5wx for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23C8512D4E9 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id 2so13529462ybw.4 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 18:08:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=+kxkddhPN+R8h14USdrOuEdp8kYIGVJs1pDWN7vHjMU=; b=PSnsQC2YOe0AvVzb2eeZUQZk+avEeo/KIPDVVQZYch1P/G7dTHUoOAEkU6EeeWf8SB DJLi4BhSkojr6nU9LRI/7Mr5J8Rnm4IZcOBh8EWPhV10Fkak9MpmZ22NjoABR06JH/PF 0XaDOwZiwaCqlploSRCvtuYN/X7gBPpGYqGSYcWphV23M5f/u4dtBYaER2CXMtvsPUEK VzlT+fzG3Kqdboxl+ozjlNVhCCruCKpTkKsW+srIA++syixdPrJ7XRHDrlq6LotchfY6 aTzET5hLr7wlDmAYErG14DFtIoe3OtrmoMF55Vyd2dvaBvojfeGA28KNESe5HpZQ/AEf UQ2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=+kxkddhPN+R8h14USdrOuEdp8kYIGVJs1pDWN7vHjMU=; b=liRTQf59mlSty64N4ag28FVWyCBA0QseHYHXY/iTlg3BOAod9B6WwqaIRtpXWmpVk8 +Bywuk/skpzTNZhAQEN9GwlriGjTBVwMw3Iz8RS3cCTiss9F/fPC6N7aDn45t0Hlyben u8I2CRW6YzNghnYSaQs0LuyaMsRX6YTbU7D0aWvVJXNDMgZ/5aA7A7OBqZWP6DtUW5Kp TN0g9DF/4doGwH10lLwcfw/B+ElZpW5QyNPWHvCKOZ2TowElSJQ+QY5pKTLiKKBemwZ2 NkX5VvrqdjAAo/0ZOON8Rbtwuk5x8RSI9hl6Hj1yi9wCzlBwof9AryexAF/pu/kvb3jv Z5tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukehMUeptSs+eRU8zltNHQfkaMKKy1b40UGC9nzyApEpbWbbNbbN Pd2Jay7B1X3yt2dMchOTFTQFhvZs X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6RuIPSK2rKfhQFRWKLZa0fWcBG20BNMeqcX5zzntijJA7PkMZPsPlXgSYiYFIlZA6tk2KLlw== X-Received: by 2002:a25:8741:: with SMTP id e1mr7293741ybn.342.1546654116249; Fri, 04 Jan 2019 18:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:59be:efe3:b2ec:d7ef? ([2605:a601:a028:986:59be:efe3:b2ec:d7ef]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x132sm27361644ywx.27.2019.01.04.18.08.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 04 Jan 2019 18:08:35 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_82E16439-4FE3-4C7F-8CFB-EF2C2CC5B9F0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 19:08:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20190105004955.GO86936@kduck.kaduk.org> Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, Martin Thomson To: Benjamin Kaduk References: <971ABBD7-8604-412A-ACA5-56D88F9C6871@ericsson.com> <332D86ED-703F-4E2A-9B0B-C9EFBC8C9753@gmail.com> <352CA718-DBF0-43BA-BF01-85003BD02899@gmail.com> <1546234758.2840090.1621719104.352FCE1B@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20190105004955.GO86936@kduck.kaduk.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Proposed GIT working group charter X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2019 02:08:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_82E16439-4FE3-4C7F-8CFB-EF2C2CC5B9F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Great. I am on board.=20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Jan 4, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 05:01:08PM -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 1:38 PM Bret Jordan = wrote: >>=20 >>> Yes but we need to be careful here. If we settled it via the Github = Issue >>> discussion where 30 people participated and 10 were against and 20 = were for >>> the change (thus we had rough consensus) and then it goes to WGLC or = IETF >>> LC and we get 5+ people against it (and no new people for it), that = would >>> mean that we did NOT have rough consensus as the numbers would be = more like >>> 20 to 15+ >>>=20 >>> I know we like to =E2=80=9Cthink=E2=80=9D that we do not vote here = in the IETF, but the >>> reality is that we do at some level. We try to hide that by = =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D >>> during a meeting. But we always say that we will take things back = to the >>> list for final review. If people speak up on the list, they are = effectively >>> voting and not =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D, meaning they are now being = singled out. >>>=20 >>> So perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response to the = thread >>> (like you said) here is the decision we came to, here is why we came = to >>> that decision, here were the number of people that supported it and = here >>> are the number of people against it (along with their views). >>>=20 >>> We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus in the = end, if >>> at the end we do not have it. This will require editors, chairs, and = ADs to >>> carefully monitor things and error on the side of understanding. So = all in >>> all, I am just asking that we be mindful, patient, and = understanding. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Right. ISTM that this conversation maps very well onto the Conflict >> Resolution and Appeals Process in >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5. The QUIC working = group, >> and the editors, have been responsive to mailing list concerns about >> directions that seemed fine in github and at interims. The community = knows >=20 > Indeed, and I would hope that anything that had 10 people against and = 20 > for in a github issue would be taking to the list (and maybe in = person) > before the chairs thought it was anywhere close to finalized! >=20 > -Ben >=20 >> what to do next, if they get that wrong, and Section 6.5 is there for = a >> reason - it's not surprising when someone catches a problem that = other >> people haven't seen yet. >>=20 >> Please check literally any IESG telechat's minutes and narrative = minutes >> for worked examples of people noticing things that other people = haven't >> seen yet, at https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/minutes/. It = takes a >> village. >>=20 >> Spencer >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Bret >>> PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 >>> "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing = that >>> can not be unscrambled is an egg." >>>=20 >>> On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter < >>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >>>=20 >>> +1 to Spencer, but I suggest that one mitigation that we could >>> encourage is that when a Git issue is resolved, the final comment >>> on the issue should summarise the rationale for the decision. >>> That would make it much easier for a re-discussion to be resolved, >>> for example if the issue comes up in WGLC or IETF LC. >>>=20 >>> "We settled that because X" is a much better response than "We = already >>> settled that." >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>> On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >>>=20 >>> I'm enjoying watching people work through important details on this = topic, >>> but feel I should chime in on one point. >>>=20 >>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote: >>>=20 >>> Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people when they have to wait >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Nit: they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what = happens when >>> they do. >>>=20 >>> until a published draft is released to comment and then they are = told, >>> =E2=80=9Cwe already talked about this and discussed it using the = Github pull/ >>> issue methods=E2=80=9D. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the extra = context of >>> those discussions, more than a counter-argument. However, I would = say that >>> once that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to = be >>> responsive to the arguments presented. That is, if there is a new >>> argument, which can be the case, that needs to be considered. >>>=20 >>> Anything truly contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting = the >>> list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's rare = that this >>> will happen with something where the positions are firmly held. >>>=20 >>> An example. A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through = the >>> GitHub issue / pull process to do X. Then when it gets released as = an >>> early draft we have some number of people say that it should have = been >>> Y. But the decision has been made and rough consensus was achieved = to >>> do X. However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then = they >>> may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could have been for = Y. >>> We just need to be careful. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> One thing we've settled on in this is a mode where consensus on = documents >>> as a whole is left to WGLC. There might be individual issues that = we've >>> consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work product is = always >>> open for changes. If the working group worked through a contentious = topic >>> (QUIC spin bit, I'm looking at you), that should be both = well-documented >>> and not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is = considered >>> open. >>>=20 >>> That said, there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen = a >>> discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally involved. I = think >>> that it's OK for the rest of the group to push back a little in = these >>> cases, though doing so from the perspective of trying to see if = there is >>> new information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might = be the >>> most polite approach. >>>=20 >>> This area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an = aid >>> to chairs. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Speaking as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some = less >>> contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth mentioning :) >>>=20 >>> Yeah, this can be a problem. Because I'm the responsible area = director for >>> QUIC, I watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully = looking for >>> "but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this at the = interim" >>> posts. >>>=20 >>> These situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, = document >>> authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a = responsibility >>> to listen to objections and filter for NEW concerns, without much = need for >>> chairs to intervene. >>>=20 >>> I was pretty sure this kind of thing would happen from time to time, = and >>> picked chairs who I trusted to intervene when necessary. I didn't = pick the >>> editors, but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So = we have >>> an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off. >>>=20 >>> It may be that we're talking about a workflow we can't engineer a = flawless >>> technique to handle, and we just have to work through the bumps. But = no one >>> has talked to me about concerns that decisions were happening in = github AND >>> objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any point, so = I think >>> we can work through most bumps, based on that experience. So, +1 on >>> Martin's "social contract", on all sides, and +1 on gathering and = sharing >>> experience so we don't have to relearn these lessons in every = working group >>> that picks up github. >>>=20 >>> When Jeff Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the = late >>> 1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never out of = order" >>> into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think using github changes that, = at all. >>>=20 >>> Spencer >>>=20 >>> I am suggesting that it would be nice if we had some sort of easier = UI >>>=20 >>> for people to comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples >>> suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those other >>> suggestions. Github is generally bad at this and true collaboration = of >>> prose text kind of requires this. But I do not have a solution. We = just >>> need to be mindful of this, and be careful. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can do a = good >>> amount of the commenting and suggesting you describe without = installing >>> git. The UI is perhaps not as slick as Word, but that just suggests = a >>> business opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that = from >>> happening. >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ietf-and-github mailing list >>> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ietf-and-github mailing list >>> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ietf-and-github mailing list >>> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github = --Apple-Mail=_82E16439-4FE3-4C7F-8CFB-EF2C2CC5B9F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Great. I am on board. 


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Jan 4, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> = wrote:

On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at = 05:01:08PM -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
On = Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 1:38 PM Bret Jordan <jordan.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes but we need to be = careful here.  If we settled it via the Github Issue
discussion where 30 people participated and 10 were against = and 20 were for
the change (thus we had rough consensus) = and then it goes to WGLC or IETF
LC and we get 5+ people = against it (and no new people for it), that would
mean = that we did NOT have rough consensus as the numbers would be more = like
20 to 15+

I know we like = to =E2=80=9Cthink=E2=80=9D that we do not vote here in the IETF, but = the
reality is that we do at some level. We try to hide = that by =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D
during a meeting. =  But we always say that we will take things back to the
list for final review. If people speak up on the list, they = are effectively
voting and not =E2=80=9Chumming=E2=80=9D, = meaning they are now being singled out.

So = perhaps what would be good is to say as the last response to the = thread
(like you said) here is the decision we came to, = here is why we came to
that decision, here were the number = of people that supported it and here
are the number of = people against it (along with their views).

We just need to be careful that we do not claim consensus in = the end, if
at the end we do not have it. This will = require editors, chairs, and ADs to
carefully monitor = things and error on the side of understanding.  So all in
all, I am just asking that we be mindful, patient, and = understanding.


Right. ISTM that this conversation maps very well onto the = Conflict
Resolution and Appeals Process in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.5. The QUIC = working group,
and the editors, have been responsive to = mailing list concerns about
directions that seemed fine in = github and at interims. The community knows
Indeed, and I would hope that = anything that had 10 people against and 20
for in a github issue would be taking to the list (and maybe = in person)
before the = chairs thought it was anywhere close to finalized!

-Ben

what = to do next, if they get that wrong, and Section 6.5 is there for a
reason - it's not surprising when someone catches a problem = that other
people haven't seen yet.

Please check literally any IESG telechat's minutes and = narrative minutes
for worked examples of people noticing = things that other people haven't
seen yet, at https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/minutes/. It takes = a
village.

Spencer



Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050
"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only = thing that
can not be unscrambled is an egg."

On Jan 4, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter = <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 to Spencer, but I suggest that one mitigation that we = could
encourage is that when a Git issue is resolved, the = final comment
on the issue should summarise the rationale = for the decision.
That would make it much easier for a = re-discussion to be resolved,
for example if the issue = comes up in WGLC or IETF LC.

"We settled = that because X" is a much better response than "We already
settled that."

 Brian

On 2019-01-04 19:06, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote:

I'm enjoying watching people work = through important details on this topic,
but feel I should = chime in on one point.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 = at 11:39 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018, at 07:34, Bret Jordan wrote:

Yes, but it is a bit of a turn-off for people = when they have to wait


Nit: = they don't *have* to wait, we're just talking about what happens when
they do.

until a published draft = is released to comment and then they are told,
=E2=80=9Cwe = already talked about this and discussed it using the Github pull/
issue methods=E2=80=9D.


That is a valid first response - as a way to bring in the = extra context of
those discussions, more than a = counter-argument.  However, I would say that
once = that context has been assimilated, the working group needs to be
responsive to the arguments presented.  That is, if = there is a new
argument, which can be the case, that needs = to be considered.

Anything truly = contentious shouldn't be decided without consulting the
list, or - worst case - spending face-to-face time, so it's = rare that this
will happen with something where the = positions are firmly held.

An example. =  A hotly discussed topic gets rough consensus through the
GitHub issue / pull process to do X.  Then when it gets = released as an
early draft we have some number of people = say that it should have been
Y.  But the decision has = been made and rough consensus was achieved to
do X. =  However, if their comments would have come in earlier, then = they
may have tilted the balance and rough consensus could = have been for Y.
We just need to be careful.


One thing we've settled on in = this is a mode where consensus on documents
as a whole is = left to WGLC.  There might be individual issues that we've
consensus on (to varying degrees), but the entire work = product is always
open for changes.  If the working = group worked through a contentious topic
(QUIC spin bit, = I'm looking at you), that should be both well-documented
and= not made available for discussion, but most of the rest is = considered
open.

That said, = there's a social contract that says that you don't reopen a
discussion frivolously, even if you were not originally = involved.  I think
that it's OK for the rest of the = group to push back a little in these
cases, though doing = so from the perspective of trying to see if there is
new = information about the problem, rather than as a "go away" might be = the
most polite approach.

This = area is probably something that needs some documentation, as an aid
to chairs.


Speaking= as the responsible Spin Bit Area Director (along with some less
contentious work on transport protocols, hardly worth = mentioning :)

Yeah, this can be a problem. = Because I'm the responsible area director for
QUIC, I = watch the working group mailing list pretty carefully looking for
"but we talked about this in github"/"but we agreed on this = at the interim"
posts.

These = situations do happen. In the recent cases I've observed, document
authors recognized that there was an educational task, and a = responsibility
to listen to objections and filter for NEW = concerns, without much need for
chairs to intervene.

I was pretty sure this kind of thing would = happen from time to time, and
picked chairs who I trusted = to intervene when necessary. I didn't pick the
editors, = but the chairs picked editors who have been responsive. So we have
an existence proof that it's possible to pull this off.

It may be that we're talking about a workflow = we can't engineer a flawless
technique to handle, and we = just have to work through the bumps. But no one
has talked = to me about concerns that decisions were happening in github AND
objections were being ignored on the mailing list, at any = point, so I think
we can work through most bumps, based on = that experience. So, +1 on
Martin's "social contract", on = all sides, and +1 on gathering and sharing
experience so = we don't have to relearn these lessons in every working group
that picks up github.

When Jeff = Schiller was doing the new chair training sessions in the late
1990s, he drummed "new and valid technical concerns are never = out of order"
into me pretty thoroughly. I don't think = using github changes that, at all.

Spencer
I am suggesting that it would be nice if we = had some sort of easier UI

for people to = comment and make suggestions, and see other peoples
suggestions and comment and then suggest on top of those = other
suggestions.  Github is generally bad at this = and true collaboration of
prose text kind of requires = this.  But I do not have a solution. We just
need to = be mindful of this, and be careful.


The GitHub tools could stand to be improved here, but you can = do a good
amount of the commenting and suggesting you = describe without installing
git.  The UI is perhaps = not as slick as Word, but that just suggests a
business = opportunity: there's nothing inherently preventing that from
happening.

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= --Apple-Mail=_82E16439-4FE3-4C7F-8CFB-EF2C2CC5B9F0-- From nobody Tue Jan 15 10:07:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7763130EEC; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:07:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Spencer Dawkins To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154757562078.10755.3050741913958261887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:07:00 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:07:01 -0000 Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (I had some comments during Internal Review that I haven't seen replies to, but this is close enough to send out the way it is) Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primarily GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; and others. I don't know whether best practices for Note Well awareness are implicitly covered here, but I remember that's often a subject that comes up when a working group starts to use Github. The examples given aren't exhaustive, so perhaps they're sufficient, but it comes up so often it might be worth mentioning explicitly. The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented practices. I don't actually know how stable the way Github works has been in recent years, or how stable it's expected to be. Is the goal for this working group one-and-done, or are we talking about an ongoing process as the way Github works, and the way IETF working groups work, evolves? The documents will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9), they will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of GitHub use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be undertaken in consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested contributors. It should surprise no one that I don't actually know who makes those decisions, which hasn't mattered for my time on the IESG up to this point, but I thought I should ask now if this is the way people expect the chartered working group to interact with the IETF Tools Team. One might read this as saying the working group plus the IETF Tools Team (and other interested contributors) are the decision makers. If that's correct, awesome. From nobody Mon Jan 21 02:52:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807F01228B7; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:52:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154806796045.8043.38468422024346054.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:52:40 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Yes_on_char?= =?utf-8?q?ter-ietf-git-00-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 10:52:41 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Two minor questions: 1) I'm not sure of all or any of the documents this group will produce should be BCP given that BCP9 will not be changed. If the group ends up to rather documenting what done today than giving recommendations that might be informational only. However, that's not really an issue I guess. If you want to be on the save side you could say in the milestone s/as BCP/as BCP or informational/ 2) Is any discussion about operating an own git service in scope for this group? If not, would it make sense to explicitly exclude it in the charter? From nobody Mon Jan 21 03:41:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFC312E043; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 03:41:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4Oroodrn_SV; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 03:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-f169.google.com (mail-it1-f169.google.com [209.85.166.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEB9412867A; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 03:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-f169.google.com with SMTP id p197so14700890itp.0; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 03:41:05 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y0oJVf9Vl/dByC7/HWd0g5MX3bf5NQljPaT9i0GtUDw=; b=W0Yha6I1BV0M3VKpHcUqZ2PgF3F+wnVbs7zUrAK2N0PXKyTLvxeDdPS/4VOLN+yFOx 6i+5XQNMj7aZznNeQQe6zni3OXVhtPblQupUCiQUfzO3JeUGxoWLThunfW814PMQWrb/ mjggyUvJygDs5wUykNzcFvp8C4hiC5X2fszAXqKJDdmXislfbfXD/zCsa7aGzFYfmrWH 9a7ChPu6WkxTpk87n0QnbZPnNhktDArVsri70OKYgj1AqpvuRKYkQQSmPgtJHEMQ/aO3 OsR+F6MmNNJf9fZ7W+zYfUYpOgAr815MztNdyyaWWNdBvc2crMtSe3cIFOA9ZGeAjtSu ZhTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfRr60NXTJfqXizlEafiRz2Sohxbouxo5UYgv0H0j4Y0tb00mZ+ Z1OEykGs3LAZNh4Rbv6BF+qy0k82w0G3hmpWcvNWUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4QhiDmLatF9b/7eazi6NZ1clkK+TX5zm8a2+8jpKjJCpwHd2QSX90/kFpnFhVcKGjg/ECltr4OHugyuDVsj8o= X-Received: by 2002:a24:a04:: with SMTP id 4mr16484493itw.122.1548070864788; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 03:41:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154806796045.8043.38468422024346054.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154806796045.8043.38468422024346054.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 06:40:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Cc: The IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Yes_on_char?= =?utf-8?q?ter-ietf-git-00-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 11:41:07 -0000 > 1) I'm not sure of all or any of the documents this group will produce should > be BCP given that BCP9 will not be changed. If the group ends up to rather > documenting what done today than giving recommendations that might be > informational only. It seems likely to me that we'll get one (likely) or more (less likely, but maybe) BCP documents that say "if you use GitHub, this is how you need to do it in order to comply with BCP 9." I'd fully expect a BCP to come out of this WG, and would be quite surprised if it decides not to do that. Barry From nobody Tue Jan 22 19:30:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF908130DFA; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 19:30:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ben Campbell To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154821420874.13307.6188141595657385822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 19:30:08 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Ben Campbell's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 03:30:09 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I share Spencer's questions From nobody Wed Jan 23 06:54:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958F4124BF6; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 06:54:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Vigoureux To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154825527253.7522.8348681082122777284.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 06:54:32 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:54:33 -0000 Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented practices. This paragraph first states that policies will be documented but ends up saying practices will be documented. From nobody Wed Jan 23 10:53:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7754E1295D8; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 10:53:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=gytNOW/R; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=o83Yshq1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SeMfkee-2-ig; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 10:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3696D1312A1; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 10:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A0A23281; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:26:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=m kKw4xhLqIZq0X1MKXlxHqT9h883JQTKeJ2ICZfhfBM=; b=gytNOW/R4YstOyT04 UYjk96GnG2bKqWwGBcHhD3QCMQlEyWlP2dtgdSYEaQCRNlfapnOtUURKAzIFyE16 i/+X3Uj33XQnQXcHXuS7dpBmbh/BN6suKTBF4IJV8cQTK3O/S4gIqlO7M0P3T3Bf g2WStAoXjNg6JfIj95a0E4swnCeWQcUyVFkm+azkAzAbR3vr6Hm/JT6LBS/WpZ0H aT7bFcVFdV9X3jEOSgl4pT3aqGfQ8SPBygu3yb2L05ps4PrSvsgca2O7E0yuFgLp UR9SzJJTv9v56hNgTRgLlrEtw4BJ+ObpR1B5lu+mKIU4Y+X0AFZBDPIw0MC5/+kt HP7OQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=mkKw4xhLqIZq0X1MKXlxHqT9h883JQTKeJ2ICZfhf BM=; b=o83Yshq1YTyJWRqT0omCdlY5pyxOeNHv9/dMfHBG4AoKCPmwNAnTiwCFd QJYDi35mbJBxUKnLhIiBWmQkv/IRBrGuF7q3CoPvMNqG9hAVfk7qsCn5ej3nkQ3d BqKHrJa4zjDycZQ/0wo6XI0rcklCoz88W3z48ffA+13LSaoN7FFWyMFbLSMeCw37 PSR8NH0TJkjahor5AEn2veQOzH0oPnMhUY/Jfj8jYbG0u8Zf43feEWftxLaOV8Uv Ogx7obnmmONeAY5g8f8WnmTiznhf0Bs8mfrbnMV7eDfesKz7nJ0XSFw8ASP0PU4i 6eNYK+dZo65DyPZcAU8VSyPh0xdjA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledriedtgdduudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomh eptehlihhsshgrucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeen ucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedujeefrdefkedruddujedrledvne curfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnnecu vehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.92]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 18F0AE4802; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:26:42 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <154757562078.10755.3050741913958261887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:26:42 -0500 Cc: IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34C8F98F-1BAD-42B7-84FC-B4EFA354121C@cooperw.in> References: <154757562078.10755.3050741913958261887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Spencer Dawkins X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:53:35 -0000 Hi Spencer, > On Jan 15, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Spencer Dawkins = wrote: >=20 > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > (I had some comments during Internal Review that I haven't seen = replies to, but > this is close enough to send out the way it is) >=20 > Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, = primarily > GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while = continuing > to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have = developed > their own policies and practices for how they use these services. = These > policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion = between > working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how = text > contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming = conventions; > maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; = and > others. >=20 > I don't know whether best practices for Note Well awareness = are > implicitly covered here, but I remember that's often a subject that = comes up > when a working group starts to use Github. The examples given aren't > exhaustive, so perhaps they're sufficient, but it comes up so often it = might be > worth mentioning explicitly. How about if we add =E2=80=9Cinforming participants about IETF = policies=E2=80=9D to the semi-colon-delimited list?=20 >=20 > The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a = set of > such practices and document policies that support those practices. The > policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that = opt to > follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and = tooling > support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented = practices. >=20 > I don't actually know how stable the way Github works has = been in > recent years, or how stable it's expected to be. Is the goal for this = working > group one-and-done, or are we talking about an ongoing process as the = way > Github works, and the way IETF working groups work, evolves? = I think the goal of this proposed group is to document policies in a = generic enough way that they apply to the basic components of what has = been the typical GitHub workflow (orgs, repos, issues, PRs, tags, etc.) = for the last few years and likely will continue to be for the next few. = But if some significant change occurs someone could suggest a new = milestone within the charter or suggest a re-charter after the first = envisioned deliverables are done.=20 >=20 > The documents will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9), = they > will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to = use > GitHub to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. >=20 > The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of = GitHub > use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be = undertaken > in consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested = contributors. >=20 > It should surprise no one that I don't actually know who = makes those > decisions, which hasn't mattered for my time on the IESG up to this = point, but > I thought I should ask now if this is the way people expect the = chartered > working group to interact with the IETF Tools Team. One might read = this as > saying the working group plus the IETF Tools Team (and other = interested > contributors) are the decision makers. If that's correct, awesome. = Good catch. That should probably say =E2=80=9CDecisions about = implementing specific tooling needs will be undertaken by the IETF Tools = Team in consultation with working group participants and other = interested contributors.=E2=80=9D The point is that the tools team still = manages the prioritization of the tools work. Alissa >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jan 23 11:11:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59ACC1277BB; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:11:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=Yt8HhDcZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=t7eJjNwd Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Swuxvj1mwXa6; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 200B712D4EB; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39B322089; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:11:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=0 ZBgGkPm+XQTGlH3FKCzJG3XCQj4mbUnyF0w6ozywfk=; b=Yt8HhDcZ5CujXC6/J hSTCmfJ7PfiSs8uajQyFnd/0W89oMYH1H8aR9vkxiUvPvVveKjiEn1880iUrZA8S VfC7GAHjTttrjtja2MRSt3eyouqU6jtPhRqUUq+CapPwi7yhAghgTfuqjzvRDnGG yrdBvO/wd/5gLbhPzn2nTrf7XEpDNLTcRjbPXvl9wc35Wwz1vmLI0grEd2sgvE4q eHUiyGNxB5uiSM+a8cjtQFFQA+ehlVwN/oWMLC5WJgdaA1anqzz+GLR1UEbi1ZCK Y8nj1Y+W5Mx7gk/OyWkTJIAOZgGM4Ci1tOfkapkctOkjvhif+ygu3xCmx5uEkYwK s8vcA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=0ZBgGkPm+XQTGlH3FKCzJG3XCQj4mbUnyF0w6ozyw fk=; b=t7eJjNwdKp3rWxwjCduEiJ/NaGxK3/WYqKmFV0ytvN1VJegAKzc+A3eCx q1rEapl87I6aI0oId+MJcnQgkUHD7ci8s5qSJc3B081c4Mjl9uvWAyiEWh7u74RR THD94x3gVEXoCQEkrQqkdoGZ7K3fTWNUd1ubwe8LIY1BMcmxYIXOhKoSzEaZe6lu BR9ZGhFcjOUJgDsQfw/pXnjFZzLK6oghf4AFoF0Z1AK/cNz5c7vptyXhu6eVYreR 7C3MfGoNmYy4LxC1WxzI/OsysnlL7T/MyOaxue+cGVoUfoZ6Q0ZulMYZM+EovbXD 7NnyL93KDx5+psm0DM+22Y0p9MTxQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledriedtgdduvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomh eptehlihhsshgrucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeen ucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedujeefrdefkedruddujedrledvne curfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnnecu vehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.92]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 19568100E5; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:11:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <154806796045.8043.38468422024346054.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:11:24 -0500 Cc: IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <663B7D1D-0FE6-423F-8591-FFB7DB38762C@cooperw.in> References: <154806796045.8043.38468422024346054.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Yes_on_char?= =?utf-8?q?ter-ietf-git-00-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:11:29 -0000 Hi Mirja, > On Jan 21, 2019, at 5:52 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind = wrote: >=20 > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Two minor questions: >=20 > 1) I'm not sure of all or any of the documents this group will produce = should > be BCP given that BCP9 will not be changed. If the group ends up to = rather > documenting what done today than giving recommendations that might be > informational only. However, that's not really an issue I guess. If = you want to > be on the save side you could say in the milestone s/as BCP/as BCP or > informational/ I think this is already safe since the milestones can change without a = re-charter. I agree with Barry that I expect the documents produced to = be BCPs, and we discussed this on the list a bit before inserting the = milestone. But if for some reason that doesn=E2=80=99t happen, changing = the milestone wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard. >=20 > 2) Is any discussion about operating an own git service in scope for = this > group? If not, would it make sense to explicitly exclude it in the = charter? I think the use of =E2=80=9Cexternal code repository services=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9CGitHub=E2=80=9D (rather than git) throughout make it clear = that this is out of scope.=20 Thanks, Alissa >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jan 23 11:12:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E261286D9; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=SzhvUKGJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HVPlSsO4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wndS4vusYeXP; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18B1F1277BB; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 11:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263312208A; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:12:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=w NxKnLHVHMrhTj/omcHCa3jayHoSjQeqCEVLHm8AxuY=; b=SzhvUKGJFGmD7CXby x50H9yO9rdqN5V/FeXjbnajhabNm+nCq93/WiWf5K3aI+1pcEaFZl5zg03r/pcU1 SpuluBj1M1GKvdbDYPqUMmuGyxI6zmbPvdy3IYxxE7ESEfPFgNSI2rMiGhkYH2wg SiT7NO5hND5EPDPTu2FX00gc7cI+EmsGx0SPZV7yrrgaIbUX9AmNMbbqVbjop/Pq RwDMcmLkI1zcSAiyyU9RXjMAY9eSMXhgslJm344V31MWyfTwt2ti9piT2xNjBIg0 BbxHmng2Vun8LDHo+FM+1mHKFwGqM4nEtURYbZPM0PPTkxKaRIUEthBWdbW7/Azg R4+4w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=wNxKnLHVHMrhTj/omcHCa3jayHoSjQeqCEVLHm8Ax uY=; b=HVPlSsO4SOqrwPfxQBofIvtNdxeDKwqWfsKO1fjEug9f4qw0POYyTP+YN rdUBLs4yn1rozZOZ0cIGK6dRn3XuVNusETpiZf7k1THFZr8/CnML4LuF/ZbxUE3h aE/8ZSvV5bRfzT8S+Iz4h57PkrpZEKkLyOXgImAYtZl/+VQFrxKLwa2m6DYaGEav O3A9lbsvFwBehv14pCb7R4620We++mcd5wGuAma5LMv2GwULxCTf0qgQ6+taKSgM PYCvhII75ZPJT7wfrV+L7eIKfn4KpzWkYuVFpFpyQqWsforc+/FXXvx1EK5LyeB/ Ne14m/W2MVwY3mPtFWJJWJdR7AItg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledriedtgdduvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjff fgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhsrgcuvehoohhpvghruceo rghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrgh enucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdelvdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhep rghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.92]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A508A10310; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:12:42 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <154825527253.7522.8348681082122777284.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 14:12:42 -0500 Cc: IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154825527253.7522.8348681082122777284.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Martin Vigoureux X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:12:47 -0000 Hi Martin, > On Jan 23, 2019, at 9:54 AM, Martin Vigoureux = wrote: >=20 > Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-git-00-00: No Objection >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Hello, >=20 > The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a = set of > such practices and document policies that support those practices. The > policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that = opt to > follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and = tooling > support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented = practices. >=20 > This paragraph first states that policies will be documented but ends = up saying > practices will be documented. Would s/documented practices/practices/ address your concern? Thanks, Alissa >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jan 23 19:34:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9D13103D; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:34:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Fki7SyZwXGG; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 445C6130E71; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id l15-v6so3925054lja.9; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:34:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aC7Y5f0vfZNkOZTXnOjaDYO3ezil08w9vKpmebhU5Wo=; b=R9Mr9AGEvDRI03ZZzj2+n6BS2tyMD/Ne5hCA0ujTSeEFYeM/SCRdd8haTOiAXhEoKY o+i05P8EVUdUm77MJehn3/EAH+fc6Bvs4xWfbaBhL6mOUUnU+uJg7aO1h6jqcv4+6YH4 7kGZ6qf5ruRsZ0nmshlomTG6kTwsMSRwbVzTd/FdNI4LOe7abRtwbI0Nq0ITQmO4tfqe ctDdbtmvfvq8iPNnf9+CKigzYLgK/tdfAjJwVpi3AibA492jPLPSLEtHbtZgbtBSbmOx NHPZ3UEw0NKpYgM4VGjNHmGsQUApIlnZfEjwRO6EYtNIXTubAF6sNVb/OL/m2O2FRhkj DAmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aC7Y5f0vfZNkOZTXnOjaDYO3ezil08w9vKpmebhU5Wo=; b=Yp3i3EFS/3IJgZVaVeP6crydaExapZwHBDL7gffkivRGgt+AjnyWeYr/ErCN73zQTE zmf3hoxBwEcK/WAoBIiw8duhurEtgNg3OS7R1+dzw7b3teYPjkxmp8GBSyxizmPoM+Xl Cdcdh+EPidMaaqLM9j9Our4n3QagVTbg2z/0zXytSWp3RLHCrCL8EIJTL6qqhhZapkK2 Nek+S+2RIhDV0lfMCEe23F9TE2jh5CVZHca7w2km3BOkHoU+2HfNr0dltseo4cEfLFl6 RckqGuUyUf3ti8+UjUbSii6hBL+1wPZ0iguu6POVDH0qT56Xm43NjG1pRonlzei/GZJS X+qg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcP1Ad3Pqq64DFYtCryLf3zlaFqyniM9i00I0fOu6bX+Dhw+2av hE3tmpSjM94BZ73Nzmq9QftNCEhmMerZBM74FFyUkg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4ymPMfZKI5S8GXAen6ZjvMDl+W2T03sSffzhxMz0hR0meW34eEsnJ8IFfU4aas/l3sTbMu0WoOJGmE+kxRKG8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8605:: with SMTP id a5-v6mr3962527lji.145.1548300878901; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 19:34:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154757562078.10755.3050741913958261887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <34C8F98F-1BAD-42B7-84FC-B4EFA354121C@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <34C8F98F-1BAD-42B7-84FC-B4EFA354121C@cooperw.in> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 21:34:25 -0600 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4772c05802be364" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 03:34:45 -0000 --000000000000e4772c05802be364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Alissa, On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 12:26 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi Spencer, > > > On Jan 15, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Spencer Dawkins < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > > charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > (I had some comments during Internal Review that I haven't seen replies > to, but > > this is close enough to send out the way it is) > > > > Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primari= ly > > GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while > continuing > > to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have > developed > > their own policies and practices for how they use these services. These > > policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion betwe= en > > working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how te= xt > > contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions; > > maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; and > > others. > > > > I don't know whether best practices for Note Well awareness a= re > > implicitly covered here, but I remember that's often a subject that > comes up > > when a working group starts to use Github. The examples given aren't > > exhaustive, so perhaps they're sufficient, but it comes up so often it > might be > > worth mentioning explicitly. > > How about if we add =E2=80=9Cinforming participants about IETF policies= =E2=80=9D to the > semi-colon-delimited list? > That works (if you woke up any IETF Github person out of a sound sleep and said "what policies do we need to inform participants about?", they'd say "Note Well", but there may be other policies, now or in the future, so generic is good). Thanks for that one. > > > > The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a se= t > of > > such practices and document policies that support those practices. The > > policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that > opt to > > follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tooli= ng > > support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented practice= s. > > > > I don't actually know how stable the way Github works has bee= n > in > > recent years, or how stable it's expected to be. Is the goal for this > working > > group one-and-done, or are we talking about an ongoing process as the w= ay > > Github works, and the way IETF working groups work, evolves? > > I think the goal of this proposed group is to document policies in a > generic enough way that they apply to the basic components of what has be= en > the typical GitHub workflow (orgs, repos, issues, PRs, tags, etc.) for th= e > last few years and likely will continue to be for the next few. But if so= me > significant change occurs someone could suggest a new milestone within th= e > charter or suggest a re-charter after the first envisioned deliverables a= re > done. > That's probably what any reasonable IESG would do in the future, so no need for a text change that I can see. > > The documents will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9), th= ey > > will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to u= se > > GitHub to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. > > > > The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of > GitHub > > use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be > undertaken > > in consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested > contributors. > > > > It should surprise no one that I don't actually know who make= s > those > > decisions, which hasn't mattered for my time on the IESG up to this > point, but > > I thought I should ask now if this is the way people expect the charter= ed > > working group to interact with the IETF Tools Team. One might read this > as > > saying the working group plus the IETF Tools Team (and other interested > > contributors) are the decision makers. If that's correct, awesome. > > > Good catch. (I'm glad! I wonder what percentage of my ballot positions have started out "I don't actually know how this works, but" - 80 percent? If this Nomcom didn't give you a designated clueless AD as my replacement, you folks might add that to the generic position descriptions for next year :-) > That should probably say =E2=80=9CDecisions about implementing specific t= ooling > needs will be undertaken by the IETF Tools Team in consultation with > working group participants and other interested contributors.=E2=80=9D Th= e point is > that the tools team still manages the prioritization of the tools work. Thanks for the help with that. Your answer is the way I thought it worked, but wanted to ask before the charter was approved. Spencer --000000000000e4772c05802be364 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Alissa,=C2=A0

On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at = 12:26 PM Alissa Cooper <alissa@coop= erw.in> wrote:
Hi Spencer,

> On Jan 15, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com= > wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<= br> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi= s
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf= -git/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> (I had some comments during Internal Review that I haven't seen re= plies to, but
> this is close enough to send out the way it is)
>
> Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primar= ily
> GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while conti= nuing
> to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have dev= eloped
> their own policies and practices for how they use these services. Thes= e
> policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion betw= een
> working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how t= ext
> contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions= ;
> maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; an= d
> others.
>
> <Spencer> I don't know whether best practices for Note Well = awareness are
> implicitly covered here, but I remember that's often a subject tha= t comes up
> when a working group starts to use Github. The examples given aren'= ;t
> exhaustive, so perhaps they're sufficient, but it comes up so ofte= n it might be
> worth mentioning explicitly. </Spencer>

How about if we add =E2=80=9Cinforming participants about IETF policies=E2= =80=9D to the semi-colon-delimited list?

That works (if you woke up any IETF Github person out of a sound sleep a= nd said "what policies do we need to inform participants about?",= they'd say "Note Well", but there may be other policies, now= or in the future, so generic is good).=C2=A0

Than= ks for that one.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
>
> The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a s= et of
> such practices and document policies that support those practices. The=
> policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that= opt to
> follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tool= ing
> support for working groups that choose to adopt the documented practic= es.
>
> <Spencer> I don't actually know how stable the way Github wo= rks has been in
> recent years, or how stable it's expected to be. Is the goal for t= his working
> group one-and-done, or are we talking about an ongoing process as the = way
> Github works, and the way IETF working groups work, evolves?=C2=A0 <= ;/Spencer>

I think the goal of this proposed group is to document policies in a generi= c enough way that they apply to the basic components of what has been the t= ypical GitHub workflow (orgs, repos, issues, PRs, tags, etc.) for the last = few years and likely will continue to be for the next few. But if some sign= ificant change occurs someone could suggest a new milestone within the char= ter or suggest a re-charter after the first envisioned deliverables are don= e.

That's probably what any reason= able IESG would do in the future, so no need for a text change that I can s= ee.
=C2=A0
> The documents will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9), = they
> will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to = use
> GitHub to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion.=
>
> The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of = GitHub
> use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be under= taken
> in consultation with the IETF Tools Team and other interested contribu= tors.
>
> <Spencer> It should surprise no one that I don't actually kn= ow who makes those
> decisions, which hasn't mattered for my time on the IESG up to thi= s point, but
> I thought I should ask now if this is the way people expect the charte= red
> working group to interact with the IETF Tools Team. One might read thi= s as
> saying the working group plus the IETF Tools Team (and other intereste= d
> contributors) are the decision makers. If that's correct, awesome.= =C2=A0 </Spencer>

Good catch.

(I'm glad! I wonder what p= ercentage of my ballot positions have started out "I don't actuall= y know how this works, but" - 80 percent? If this Nomcom didn't gi= ve you a designated clueless AD as my replacement, you folks might add that= to the generic position descriptions for next year :-)
=C2=A0
That should probably s= ay =E2=80=9CDecisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be und= ertaken by the IETF Tools Team in consultation with working group participa= nts and other interested contributors.=E2=80=9D The point is that the tools= team still manages the prioritization of the tools work.
=
Thanks for the help with that. Your answer is the way I thou= ght it worked, but wanted to ask before the charter was approved.

Spencer=C2=A0
--000000000000e4772c05802be364-- From nobody Wed Jan 23 20:13:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36885131056; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:13:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Rescorla To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154830318618.7559.4580390339174486887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:13:06 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 04:13:06 -0000 Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am fine with this, but it seems to leave open the question about whether these policies would be binding if you chose to use Github -- though obviously non-binding if you chose to use Bitbucket or something. I'm sure the answer is "no", but maybe we should make that clear? From nobody Wed Jan 23 20:23:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2183B130E0E; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:23:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Suresh Krishnan To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154830381706.7529.14715476373587844263.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:23:37 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 04:23:37 -0000 Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-00: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter regarding mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side. From nobody Wed Jan 23 22:58:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41607127AC2 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 22:58:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=SLHQFW30; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=R43hCNdn Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ibEEPGfIlan1 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 22:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from new3-smtp.messagingengine.com (new3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B84631310AC for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 22:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailnew.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DBBA422 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 01:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 24 Jan 2019 01:58:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:in-reply-to:references:date:subject; s=fm1; bh=JWt ZvPXpYkIKKhtdsFeAMpuT0A2+dvpXL1UlSdhJnfU=; b=SLHQFW30kYkTUgveaBV GZpKt6ILeVpR9m2nAl9xSlt1B669WAhzLn0uw0xbZH5Im2oTKeHmPdgoZyJ7zyo1 ngBOstM2SbD6degXpbW3SugvuGtBVLzctc4mLjKH+qdzo+FyQ5GxBML4g0iT1tzC jjab/fkLtkYU+k/0I4P3Xak4q+5pDuvQYVg7iqI5U//z4glasvEi4WK5jPMjuG8f mec5plhl3gZygnsV2/R4bvKFx/pPp+iDnc49CTWYm8nUUrxh4tj+GAb/2zaceSmN 12UdOHntFQLo5O6CBkzTfJmzQF24gjmj2nwtlOwVf0wTnX0DyBmzu67ExTDv43sk JBA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=JWtZvPXpYkIKKhtdsFeAMpuT0A2+dvpXL1UlSdhJn fU=; b=R43hCNdnvm9tr/QPTM38EbRoCxJbbWkNt/KopfjUiw+WpPA9pW/Uv+a/G 3E36p7mmn8JNg84IxBRhLr4ynQR7ByQzOtxKr9SZHRt2w7XuzX2/ZX7mgYoX8dMd JEerr1+P6lywLRFBB8v5pP7/j8C0OYKxt3nvPpb4BSZ9etUJr0sTQ0kC58V3jqlY /Zu4gVLbPUyl9qLGxr1Ha8uYS+1RjPZJGsaPDwMurgzmfVN5EEj7htAZsdtKRoTn AlymkOYHHPk4qlvuhdjUr7xyu8CkJFYcQsZ5O+kY6P+S8Rsev3X4A32/ihmUe/ih GrZ3NevTQjWx5ChmFANvW60lm5C3w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledriedugddutddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurhepkffhvfgggfgtofgjfhffufesthejredtredtjeenucfhrhhomh epofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheq necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id E2EB69E539; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 01:58:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1548313102.2403185.1642348160.4E7E0867@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Martin Thomson To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-36e4bfd3 In-Reply-To: <154830381706.7529.14715476373587844263.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <154830381706.7529.14715476373587844263.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:58:22 +1100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 06:58:29 -0000 On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter regarding > mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side. Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions with the tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level protection? From nobody Wed Jan 23 23:08:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9B71310D5 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 23:08:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=WK9FNntT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=tR2bDM7Y Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8JEVPjeYWnvq for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 23:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from new3-smtp.messagingengine.com (new3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BCD9130EA9 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 23:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailnew.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8703FBFE3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 02:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 24 Jan 2019 02:08:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:in-reply-to:references:date:subject; s=fm1; bh=6pg CfZqCq6DKgTh4ikvoKOLWlbgpwK3UItsPjpP9Lgw=; b=WK9FNntTcGpletOYaW2 lo1euS2jTMErbSIFH4KOVKcQ0qlDPwKpB5A+qQcoGBWS+ekKoyXd2DrZmWl4ROQ7 9DG4/G/Qrpxee0gfRw8Xknyy7IyiR4h/XYL/Lxtgpmw1/406Tov/hsCvqCkGjiaP e8Z0MnL/OFiSP7/M4cCwIgrRR00C1f/tBEHI9ID6CpmXBXJSN6lwJtEfAASEs0ie KAuHOGzIatXJwTvv9m4V23mStYWTLn6vKatl6dpUhJ0ruiL+AWfyVuSERJVz6ekt I+LIqUqJjICoRNU8cnEiJUqh/ZkJo0WD3i8W/hwpPB96BeXOHE1sRky++lEWoGw5 TGA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=6pgCfZqCq6DKgTh4ikvoKOLWlbgpwK3UItsPjpP9L gw=; b=tR2bDM7Y+rlrkosdIDkqkjUo38OY4FeVcFc71odWoj/tLbnMB/HOrGlXp N/ZZZ/kc6BhCPutgRXV7d3CBTSP0afSPjolDn5X83GuZMON8mFjmdGfTUukqmyTn UEH5JRLKICVa8YBZuMxSZ9c6ooexQxlKkECJaQneaEJsEUuHZbKPosZlZ4Q8DVnj aUF3PYJIgQ1iu+2jAj53YsUD8QfqQe4yTUV9e+eBAlK5Gv8yfZa5+aWGqplFjv9J JY4m6CLUa2Doqjh54KBWrnmSAR064qQuKB8hDccCnwnoYGNeD8jgZaVNO09Oj3ir I7IVDeYXgVCMSMD17DO3VpncFAgSw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledriedugddutdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurhepkffhvfgggfgtofgjfhffufesthejredtredtjeenucfhrhhomh epofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheq necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 950D19E539; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 02:08:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1548313716.2407017.1642353712.340D550C@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Martin Thomson To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-36e4bfd3 In-Reply-To: <154830318618.7559.4580390339174486887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <154830318618.7559.4580390339174486887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 18:08:36 +1100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 07:08:49 -0000 On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:13, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I am fine with this, but it seems to leave open the question about whether > these policies would be binding if you chose to use Github -- though obviously > non-binding if you chose to use Bitbucket or something. I'm sure the answer is > "no", but maybe we should make that clear? This probably needs a little unpacking. The intent, which I think might have been poorly captured (see below) was that working groups could adopt the policies to aid them in doing work. Adopting the policies would be discretionary. Presumably if they wanted to change details of the policy, then that would be fine too. In your example, it might be reasonable to say that a working group could choose to use a substantially similar service, but otherwise adopt the policies without modification. I think that it was probably this bit that you stumbled on: > Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. Is this clearer? > Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. From nobody Thu Jan 24 05:08:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6341131132 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:08:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.04 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.04 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tgI0K39CezMu for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F1181310F6 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id v1-v6so5203209ljd.0 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:08:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=b+lhNf/nCmVG58a/pOF/tCW06CzQ1nGTYILqf+wKSdc=; b=rA5mdHb7QdOo/dYvckE9idb6kwdIZBn00b2U3WegAWuL1Wu3JEGDBJlvMJoydzrST5 pBxenKBZ4WCOcT/1MCmGZkvQwrd3PfXrrQo1ratlANSxrpZTxSzWY9OLCyFCF8ZMjaCh FQq1C6czIFP7DWPWCcVyoWERzQJto/NeKpz7t4WHpvR88wZXheOrWfVq0HnTJ6blj6/i 8bgHeunc1w36nC+g/78iIv/0z8v2qrO+aZBqJQv6DoQV8UfgsWAHr5PczR1qaekVZM96 4GUX107gDN+PP5RnZmjZ0yVtl4bwlH2pfYEkk6D+rUcrSqOAX9Ii8QG1/TxwqV62Ar/Q uw4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=b+lhNf/nCmVG58a/pOF/tCW06CzQ1nGTYILqf+wKSdc=; b=eHoWYYn62vE76K7Kuq3DkdwFtYYSPjsyfRCnjONSal0E1D3B9ofXCnhefMY72PhZ8p G3jwe76CmvJCT8aG1f/QkaD6WCipq9WIFtBi0BfR4wm4+14ZYurSdj76DjLhlLwwFXPM e8MEvbYs4X8jVgBpEiKcOFHUi5SaDiJeVyTRj2MNEhrp3bhAg9OMEmEEuwCoJ9nmpl8M 65QYbCnO9GevvatP4lGoTDYD4zMoPZYU8foNtAOZjMvzYo9Z6G489GYomrOk2dAPU3q+ bIp3TGk0BFXzfqUSdT01PYxUQehqFTCYYKaeIJvbGlAFboLYvJ/BoCIT0mJVVfDXarYA fZHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdoan4CikVv+FDxDSeohgkf0KrU7P08ESSfr5p8BEPsxketOPwp YPep9L5qb9iiQD0QGWRzMiuZIKJuYvn83uu3m5MWDIBK8D0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7mwIMDXesEsFsLV8FHZh5fuAy8ujce6dRCra4XEA8xiAFfE4w3kridqEFBY6ag6INnNWk7c/A8Eduxgq0rayM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:95c6:: with SMTP id y6-v6mr4955777ljh.59.1548335332457; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:08:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154830318618.7559.4580390339174486887.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1548313716.2407017.1642353712.340D550C@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1548313716.2407017.1642353712.340D550C@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 05:08:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c2816058033e9cc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 13:08:57 -0000 --0000000000007c2816058033e9cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 11:08 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:13, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I am fine with this, but it seems to leave open the question about > whether > > these policies would be binding if you chose to use Github -- though > obviously > > non-binding if you chose to use Bitbucket or something. I'm sure the > answer is > > "no", but maybe we should make that clear? > > This probably needs a little unpacking. The intent, which I think might > have been poorly captured (see below) was that working groups could adopt > the policies to aid them in doing work. Adopting the policies would be > discretionary. Presumably if they wanted to change details of the policy, > then that would be fine too. > > In your example, it might be reasonable to say that a working group could > choose to use a substantially similar service, but otherwise adopt the > policies without modification. > > I think that it was probably this bit that you stumbled on: > > > Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support their work will > remain entirely at their discretion. > > Is this clearer? > Yes, because it implies that maybe if you used Github, you would have to adopt these policies. > > Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies > to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. > SGTM -Ekr > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --0000000000007c2816058033e9cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 11:08 PM Mart= in Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net&g= t; wrote:
On Thu= , Jan 24, 2019, at 15:13, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> I am fine with this, but it seems to leave open the question about whe= ther
> these policies would be binding if you chose to use Github -- though o= bviously
> non-binding if you chose to use Bitbucket or something. I'm sure t= he answer is
> "no", but maybe we should make that clear?

This probably needs a little unpacking.=C2=A0 The intent, which I think mig= ht have been poorly captured (see below) was that working groups could adop= t the policies to aid them in doing work.=C2=A0 Adopting the policies would= be discretionary.=C2=A0 Presumably if they wanted to change details of the= policy, then that would be fine too.

In your example, it might be reasonable to say that a working group could c= hoose to use a substantially similar service, but otherwise adopt the polic= ies without modification.

I think that it was probably this bit that you stumbled on:

> Whether working groups choose to use GitHub to support their work will= remain entirely at their discretion.

Is this clearer?

Yes, because it implie= s that maybe if you used Github, you would have to adopt these policies.


> Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies= to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion.

SGTM

-Ekr

=

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--0000000000007c2816058033e9cc-- From nobody Thu Jan 24 06:13:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F68126BED for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 06:13:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XnqjZGbMrR8 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 06:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 019AD124D68 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 06:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id e26so4421361lfc.2 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 06:13:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iMwQ5FcIii94MElJKWyT7VI98agUy5OyEFIVPT78/jc=; b=crRqRD9Lijz9WHIHPAGk/MUjhBHJcuPIF3hMl6mfEn/ERTObUg7vQokZV6NSzGFlVY a6LRXYvynpyZB8TrbFTIJakdoQpIS1RqaWTvvzo7xeBcf/0feydG8hV7gUYmaYOiEIx9 9D/4WJ5LlrawgB9NdY5IFVPqr8eYbUb8apuT6Gup0RwjTpqlAOOurmMsI0OOwbuluuOZ p/fjfJfDqsBBWJPhDOsfjp7UJlnrc24I5JpGHu7K58KohU7Q6xLbj2NGRolUTfP8hWO+ z/RhcCMK+fmdeGDWLdETzPE3y6MY1L5SoC9vliLZP4x5FGXUhCJR/Ttgig1qIZgSuDmJ lJJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iMwQ5FcIii94MElJKWyT7VI98agUy5OyEFIVPT78/jc=; b=FJU7vSdXX6KQa49/+v6hMDFboogCUPcHlZg5xeDwXxmRc/cbYHh5HvSh6M8vciPUsr iyOPUbzEgqMKui61OvMI1m+lNlq4agotwBnptcGgQIw5vhX7RCYADGoN+rwrEM6yrkRL K2/URarWRZIddDul0lEf2FdPzqZpsHq1S7iB0gXpM0NSstGbRzjEfwBTuqO5fuir4P/l Vy8BeiIfuuQjJRq/sloSV1NsW+xM6hPl+rvDQUPccJcppWInSsp6/tbP6OCBFMKenPnA KKZFsN2Zv9DdrP5FUVHO77yGux8/c5owlwdTuYY4c9HcHeRlPAL6Z3Gls3/L8f2CfNkt +73A== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUuke7lIUiwT7DVqJMKh1+FdO/x2tdcmoptmFjxqtOE7jORC9DY8ae rw6k1uQ+bAsFXn84bL5It9NHE05RTXs7fBXzKjpBjHNA X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5AtMOfcSFJz9Kja9HdD9ZdMslmweVw+aIbclW1kv6C4rOYCoMxv6HuasgII4fdcK2DeMi7UNltA5nUhXzDQGA= X-Received: by 2002:a19:5d42:: with SMTP id p2mr5268699lfj.83.1548339225982; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 06:13:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154830381706.7529.14715476373587844263.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1548313102.2403185.1642348160.4E7E0867@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1548313102.2403185.1642348160.4E7E0867@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 08:13:31 -0600 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e80bf058034d156" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:13:50 -0000 --0000000000008e80bf058034d156 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just chiming in on Suresh's comment thread. On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter regarding > > mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side. > > Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions with > the tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level protection? > On this specific point, I think that questions about mirroring should be in scope for the working group, and I don't think the charter can reasonably be read as declaring those conversations out of scope, but ISTM that language like "The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices" is focused on what working groups might do, not what the IETF might do on behalf of working groups. So, this could be clearer. But just to uplevel, perhaps Suresh is asking a specific question that might (or might not) point to a general topic for the charter. Because Github is a resource we don't control, I suspect the community would like to have a sense that there's a contingency plan for working groups that are significantly wrapped Gitbub (and there are more every year), if Github for some reason is no longer a suitable place for IETF working groups, beyond "well, back to the e-mail lists, right?". Do we have a sense of whether that's true? And, if it is true, do we know who is on the hook to develop that contingency plan? If it's the IESG, or the secretariat, or the tools team, or I-don't-know-who-else, that's fine, but if this working group could provide recommendations about those practices, would that be in scope, or not? Thanks, Spencer --0000000000008e80bf058034d156 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just chiming in on Sures= h's comment thread.

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson <= mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019,= at 15:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote:
> If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter regarding=
> mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side.

Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions with t= he tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level protection?

On this specific point, I think that questio= ns about mirroring should be in scope for the working group, and I don'= t think the charter can reasonably be read as declaring those conversations= out of scope, but ISTM that language like "The GitHub Integration and= Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and docume= nt policies that support those practices" is focused on what working g= roups might do, not what the IETF might do on behalf of working groups. So,= this could be clearer.=C2=A0

But just to uplevel,= perhaps Suresh is asking a specific question that might (or might not) poi= nt to a general topic for the charter.=C2=A0

Becau= se Github is a resource we don't control, I suspect the community would= like to have a sense that there's a contingency plan for working group= s that are significantly wrapped Gitbub (and there are more every year), if= Github for some reason is no longer a suitable place for IETF working grou= ps, beyond "well, back to the e-mail lists, right?".
Do we have a sense of whether that's true? And, if it is t= rue, do we know who is on the hook to develop that contingency plan?=C2=A0<= /div>

If it's the IESG, or the secretariat, or the t= ools team, or I-don't-know-who-else, that's fine, but if this worki= ng group could provide recommendations about those practices, would that be= in scope, or not?=C2=A0

Thanks,

Spencer
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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:23:18 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: <72989A49-A834-4E05-A5C1-6344133A2C96@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0FEDAF9D-E91E-4391-902F-0575AE04E6D8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:23:17 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: <154830381706.7529.14715476373587844263.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1548313102.2403185.1642348160.4E7E0867@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:23:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0FEDAF9D-E91E-4391-902F-0575AE04E6D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jan 24, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > Just chiming in on Suresh's comment thread. >=20 > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson > wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter = regarding > > mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side. >=20 > Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions = with the tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level = protection? >=20 > On this specific point, I think that questions about mirroring should = be in scope for the working group, and I don't think the charter can = reasonably be read as declaring those conversations out of scope, but = ISTM that language like "The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) = working group will select a set of such practices and document policies = that support those practices" is focused on what working groups might = do, not what the IETF might do on behalf of working groups. So, this = could be clearer.=20 I think this is quite clear. If people disagree, suggesting a specific = change would help. >=20 > But just to uplevel, perhaps Suresh is asking a specific question that = might (or might not) point to a general topic for the charter.=20 >=20 > Because Github is a resource we don't control, I suspect the community = would like to have a sense that there's a contingency plan for working = groups that are significantly wrapped Gitbub (and there are more every = year), if Github for some reason is no longer a suitable place for IETF = working groups, beyond "well, back to the e-mail lists, right?". >=20 > Do we have a sense of whether that's true? And, if it is true, do we = know who is on the hook to develop that contingency plan?=20 >=20 > If it's the IESG, or the secretariat, or the tools team, or = I-don't-know-who-else, that's fine, but if this working group could = provide recommendations about those practices, would that be in scope, = or not?=20 I think this is clearly in scope, already discussed in the drafts, and = too much of a detail to be included in the charter language itself. Alissa >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Spencer > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_0FEDAF9D-E91E-4391-902F-0575AE04E6D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Jan 24, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Just = chiming in on Suresh's comment thread.

On Thu, Jan = 24, 2019 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> = wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:23, = Suresh Krishnan wrote:
> If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter = regarding
> mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side.
=
Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions = with the tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level = protection?

On this specific point, I think that = questions about mirroring should be in scope for the working group, and = I don't think the charter can reasonably be read as declaring those = conversations out of scope, but ISTM that language like "The GitHub = Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such = practices and document policies that support those practices" is focused = on what working groups might do, not what the IETF might do on behalf of = working groups. So, this could be = clearer. 

I think this is quite clear. If people disagree, = suggesting a specific change would help.


But just to uplevel, perhaps Suresh is = asking a specific question that might (or might not) point to a general = topic for the charter. 

Because Github is a resource we don't = control, I suspect the community would like to have a sense that there's = a contingency plan for working groups that are significantly wrapped = Gitbub (and there are more every year), if Github for some reason is no = longer a suitable place for IETF working groups, beyond "well, back to = the e-mail lists, right?".

Do we have a sense of whether that's true? And, if it is = true, do we know who is on the hook to develop that contingency = plan? 

If = it's the IESG, or the secretariat, or the tools team, or = I-don't-know-who-else, that's fine, but if this working group could = provide recommendations about those practices, would that be in scope, = or not? 

I think this is clearly in scope, already = discussed in the drafts, and too much of a detail to be included in the = charter language itself.

Alissa


Thanks,

Spencer
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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB7PR07MB4987; H:DB7PR07MB5894.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: udFIVQyCQOkd92mdJFWC8HlOElNmsge5g0ApOeLBmsvgTmrW2k8yD1qOpz3MszJeWdw6V8tCxGzw+iHbR7IojZyYR8iVDzO1tT+JB1YnMAMJ2m4Sb4+7Zjt9QH35+M1HdYIZy/CbL/jfMExomVRJL6rKse/aXq0s2uL+DeNRbK0xdrFuQyC1Eh43FqEopnT8vyjbUJFw/4ap2PsrNdmtDjSJS68v8+E/MV3ntf/llBrDg4zh72i5oZESNCqPNAeFm5jo6+FzbP23eiTDY8rQ1fTFjNT5iesaMczYllXRHFTwt7b4ttIleUwugkQuStm57itkIGl1r6v0qL/BotX979p6Hq9fmGpA4VStVYtovg3GhaZAESXx9/8l3lDVmncu8ssjLjSGni1zwka1fMtYXnXdqP3EqGZu957JXNwk09w= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8A7BFC48BAAED14DB2A0B1D86A24E0C5@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 13c3fd4e-0720-499a-5f94-08d6820ef07d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Jan 2019 15:16:39.0331 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB4987 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:16:56 -0000 VGhhdCdzIGZpbmUuIFRoYW5rcyBBbGlzc2ENCg0KTGUgMjAxOS0wMS0yMyDDoCAyMDoxMiwgQWxp c3NhIENvb3BlciBhIMOpY3JpdMKgOg0KPiBIaSBNYXJ0aW4sDQo+IA0KPj4gT24gSmFuIDIzLCAy MDE5LCBhdCA5OjU0IEFNLCBNYXJ0aW4gVmlnb3VyZXV4IDxtYXJ0aW4udmlnb3VyZXV4QG5va2lh LmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pg0KPj4gTWFydGluIFZpZ291cmV1eCBoYXMgZW50ZXJlZCB0aGUgZm9s bG93aW5nIGJhbGxvdCBwb3NpdGlvbiBmb3INCj4+IGNoYXJ0ZXItaWV0Zi1naXQtMDAtMDA6IE5v IE9iamVjdGlvbg0KPj4NCj4+IFdoZW4gcmVzcG9uZGluZywgcGxlYXNlIGtlZXAgdGhlIHN1Ympl Y3QgbGluZSBpbnRhY3QgYW5kIHJlcGx5IHRvIGFsbA0KPj4gZW1haWwgYWRkcmVzc2VzIGluY2x1 ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBUbyBhbmQgQ0MgbGluZXMuIChGZWVsIGZyZWUgdG8gY3V0IHRoaXMNCj4+IGlu dHJvZHVjdG9yeSBwYXJhZ3JhcGgsIGhvd2V2ZXIuKQ0KPj4NCj4+DQo+Pg0KPj4gVGhlIGRvY3Vt ZW50LCBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIG90aGVyIGJhbGxvdCBwb3NpdGlvbnMsIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBoZXJl Og0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvY2hhcnRlci1pZXRmLWdpdC8N Cj4+DQo+Pg0KPj4NCj4+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCj4+IENPTU1FTlQ6DQo+PiAtLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tDQo+Pg0KPj4gSGVsbG8sDQo+Pg0KPj4gVGhlIEdpdEh1YiBJbnRlZ3JhdGlvbiBhbmQgVG9v bGluZyAoR0lUKSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIHdpbGwgc2VsZWN0IGEgc2V0IG9mDQo+PiBzdWNoIHBy YWN0aWNlcyBhbmQgZG9jdW1lbnQgcG9saWNpZXMgdGhhdCBzdXBwb3J0IHRob3NlIHByYWN0aWNl cy4gVGhlDQo+PiBwb2xpY2llcyB3aWxsIGVhY2ggZGV0YWlsIGhvdyB3b3JrIGlzIGNvbmR1Y3Rl ZCBieSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwcyB0aGF0IG9wdCB0bw0KPj4gZm9sbG93IHRoZSB3b3JrIHByYWN0 aWNlLiBUaGUgZ29hbCBpcyB0byBwcm92aWRlIGJvdGggcHJvY2VzcyBhbmQgdG9vbGluZw0KPj4g c3VwcG9ydCBmb3Igd29ya2luZyBncm91cHMgdGhhdCBjaG9vc2UgdG8gYWRvcHQgdGhlIGRvY3Vt ZW50ZWQgcHJhY3RpY2VzLg0KPj4NCj4+IFRoaXMgcGFyYWdyYXBoIGZpcnN0IHN0YXRlcyB0aGF0 IHBvbGljaWVzIHdpbGwgYmUgZG9jdW1lbnRlZCBidXQgZW5kcyB1cCBzYXlpbmcNCj4+IHByYWN0 aWNlcyB3aWxsIGJlIGRvY3VtZW50ZWQuDQo+IA0KPiBXb3VsZA0KPiANCj4gcy9kb2N1bWVudGVk IHByYWN0aWNlcy9wcmFjdGljZXMvDQo+IA0KPiBhZGRyZXNzIHlvdXIgY29uY2Vybj8NCj4gDQo+ IFRoYW5rcywNCj4gQWxpc3NhDQo+IA0KPj4NCj4+DQo+IA0KPiANCg== From nobody Thu Jan 24 11:23:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8013E13120F for ; 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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:23:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from client-0118.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0118.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43lsW73kRQz1Br6; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:22:59 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20190124163004.GE4303@localhost> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:22:58 +0100 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 570050576.924289-6d5fcf857bb56d7005d7d0304a62b56c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <25946.1547751133@localhost> <2062850122.1176466.1548052316757@mail.yahoo.com> <7C2EF2A7-B267-43BB-9A07-56835D184E71@tzi.org> <1a427a5b-dba7-5d18-393a-c39e99e1fbd8@joelhalpern.com> <20190121152616.GE81907@kduck.mit.edu> <009b01d4b238$901cb460$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <015601d4b303$5e7cd4a0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <0D7CDE67-2DE3-4809-8DC3-1FCB6AD7D334@gmail.com> <20190124163004.GE4303@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 19:23:12 -0000 On Jan 24, 2019, at 17:30, Nico Williams wrote: >=20 > I've considered creating a second GH account to watch all the same = repos > that I participate in just so I could get those emails. But this = isn't > user-friendly. (A practical tip that is a bit off-topic:) I need that second account anyway, because I=E2=80=99m not going to hand = over the keys to the kingdom to some random CI service. So all my = CI-bots run on the second account, and I conveniently get all the = notifications on my own activity there=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jan 24 15:54:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB32131229 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:54:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=mAleHk6p; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=w2jR9NBy Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ExycgbYTBCaC for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from new3-smtp.messagingengine.com (new3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16C211311F3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailnew.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47CA15EB4; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 18:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 24 Jan 2019 18:54:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:from:to:cc:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:subject:in-reply-to:references; s=fm1; bh=2Xb 0t8Xs5oml1Zaicg3S7Wo5jgCyJrEhkn7hz5HX5Nk=; b=mAleHk6pp5iuLWAw+1b w1IZf0IPSX1n582uGrT3SCYdNzMayFTe1sK/OP60UUOJwjxQcXTmEe3yqFOLSqKq 2qVyyxe1BrTDOUG+n7X5VB8pqSq23sLjwYbH3KrrfL4FvyOFmgrWXr2LdCwTC40H Jhpjg6FMEtbaHis1eT0vnryETjio8kKub1wziRhQ5ktDAzeDqEHODUufe1x2F36Q c8MGvkT19JHs53ojSpOyzXk6vaJxirz2HoEXBT4AyECI7tm3Efup32L48qnbg4iB 8g6krOy+4iMNa/tRuDkQPadw/v6eyks1/TiO81YnztSBv7cFYVHG1mavJvGwCCwI zOA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=2Xb0t8Xs5oml1Zaicg3S7Wo5jgCyJrEhkn7hz5HX5 Nk=; b=w2jR9NBy4ZGFRPAh/mKQBdog/41dh4lO0LQ7t9knvMgbfy5R996iJ42Gc vAFfxK1jMfGNNLd8zMG4pPyuU2a+Kr9gMwLgdrRbhq8nsifBY+LBKEBUEgUHgRTx A9tug6XkpAZFHw+VAA4tcnkC7yYaRfRSLlZmZLvSvC7s4s8SaTTGrPD3Qcv0t0qk gry3LP99b7y8nErtp1rMdpQN+CM3DAq/OZD3rLrQ21Amvlf7Up9wp6y5Mf/mrE2e 9EmpHXuBvtFddfSoBgKIZ3vR5DZP7oMLGbltJSsZHs8iWR8N3MAowQgmMuNe8X85 MCSUyfWZlD6dp92b+jsd/OmpcZ4Jw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledrieefgdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfhuthenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedt tdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepkffhvfgggfgtof ffufgjfhesthejredtredtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnuceo mhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtg homhenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgv thenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id E3AB89E560; Thu, 24 Jan 2019 18:54:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1548374053.3503668.1642996184.719D88C5@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Martin Thomson To: Alissa Cooper , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-36e4bfd3 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:54:13 +1100 In-Reply-To: <72989A49-A834-4E05-A5C1-6344133A2C96@cooperw.in> References: <154830381706.7529.14715476373587844263.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1548313102.2403185.1642348160.4E7E0867@webmail.messagingengine.com> <72989A49-A834-4E05-A5C1-6344133A2C96@cooperw.in> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 23:54:18 -0000 On Fri, Jan 25, 2019, at 01:23, Alissa Cooper wrote: > I think this is clearly in scope, already discussed in the drafts, and > too much of a detail to be included in the charter language itself. What Alissa said. Mirroring is covered by the tools interactions stuff. > I think this is quite clear. If people disagree, suggesting a specific > change would help. BTW, specific changes in the form of pull requests can be made here: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter I've integrated all the changes we've discussed thus far. 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I posted an update to the datatracker and asked the secretariat = to send this for external review so the whole community will be alerted = to take a look. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To me, this seems to fall under the mandate to confer with the Tools team o= n desired tooling support. If the working group decides that an IETF-contro= lled mirror of the repo is a desired feature, then it is already empowered = to make that suggestion. I don't think this particular request needs to be = pre-baked into the charter. Sent from Nine ________________________________ From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 11:13 PM To: Martin Thomson Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf-git-00= -00: (with COMMENT) Just chiming in on Suresh's comment thread. On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson > wrote: On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter regarding > mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side. Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions with t= he tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level protection? On this specific point, I think that questions about mirroring should be in= scope for the working group, and I don't think the charter can reasonably = be read as declaring those conversations out of scope, but ISTM that langua= ge like "The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select= a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices= " is focused on what working groups might do, not what the IETF might do on= behalf of working groups. So, this could be clearer. But just to uplevel, perhaps Suresh is asking a specific question that migh= t (or might not) point to a general topic for the charter. Because Github is a resource we don't control, I suspect the community woul= d like to have a sense that there's a contingency plan for working groups t= hat are significantly wrapped Gitbub (and there are more every year), if Gi= thub for some reason is no longer a suitable place for IETF working groups,= beyond "well, back to the e-mail lists, right?". Do we have a sense of whether that's true? And, if it is true, do we know w= ho is on the hook to develop that contingency plan? If it's the IESG, or the secretariat, or the tools team, or I-don't-know-wh= o-else, that's fine, but if this working group could provide recommendation= s about those practices, would that be in scope, or not? Thanks, Spencer --_000_0dd34dc8dcf24d04b18a26d35535d274evequefoube_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To me, this seems to fall under the mandate to confer with the Tools t= eam on desired tooling support. If the working group decides that an IETF-c= ontrolled mirror of the repo is a desired feature, then it is already empow= ered to make that suggestion. I don't think this particular request needs to be pre-baked into the charter= .

Sent from Nine
From: Spencer Dawkin= s at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 11:13 PM
To: Martin Thomson
Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Suresh Krishnan's Yes on charter-ietf= -git-00-00: (with COMMENT)

Just chiming in on Suresh's comment thread.

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:58 AM Mart= in Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net&g= t; wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019, at 15:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote:
> If possible, I would like to see some mention in the charter regarding=
> mirroring of the github repositories on the IETF side.

Is that better as input to the working group (and their interactions with t= he tools team), or a requirement that needs charter-level protection?

On this specific point, I think that questions about mirroring should = be in scope for the working group, and I don't think the charter can reason= ably be read as declaring those conversations out of scope, but ISTM that l= anguage like "The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and do= cument policies that support those practices" is focused on what worki= ng groups might do, not what the IETF might do on behalf of working groups.= So, this could be clearer. 

But just to uplevel, perhaps Suresh is asking a specific question that= might (or might not) point to a general topic for the charter. 

Because Github is a resource we don't control, I suspect the community= would like to have a sense that there's a contingency plan for working gro= ups that are significantly wrapped Gitbub (and there are more every year), = if Github for some reason is no longer a suitable place for IETF working groups, beyond "well, back t= o the e-mail lists, right?".

Do we have a sense of whether that's true? And, if it is true, do we k= now who is on the hook to develop that contingency plan? 

If it's the IESG, or the secretariat, or the tools team, or I-don't-kn= ow-who-else, that's fine, but if this working group could provide recommend= ations about those practices, would that be in scope, or not? 

Thanks,

Spencer
--_000_0dd34dc8dcf24d04b18a26d35535d274evequefoube_-- From nobody Fri Jan 25 08:06:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773DB130E9D; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 08:05:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <154843235541.29038.16287579039829404226.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 08:05:55 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:05:56 -0000 A new IETF WG has been proposed in the General Area. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2019-02-04. GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Proposed WG Chairs: TBD Assigned Area Director: Alissa Cooper General Area Directors: Alissa Cooper Mailing list: Address: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-and-github/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/git/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primarily GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; informing participants about IETF policies; and others. The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the practices. The documents will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9), they will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of GitHub use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be undertaken by the IETF Tools Team in consultation with working group participants and other interested contributors. Milestones: Aug 2019 - Work practice description and policy document(s) sent to IESG for publication as BCP From nobody Mon Jan 28 10:17:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C282131103; Mon, 28 Jan 2019 10:17:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: alissa@cooperw.in, git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.90.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154869942640.2944.12217903984992014737.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 10:17:06 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] git - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 18:17:06 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Alissa Cooper, a GEN Area Director. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: GitHub Integration and Tooling Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Alissa Cooper Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 75 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: quic httpbis tls acme saag secdispatch mls doh rtcweb anima dnssd dprive tsvarea rtgarea opsarea intarea dnsop grow homenet capport dispatch stir iasa2 mtgvenue jmap Second Priority: curdle lamps oauth tokbind trans teep suit People who must be present: Alissa Cooper Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please do not schedule against any BOFs or area meetings. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jan 29 05:46:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2079130DF6; 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Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:46:21 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A2EB750E-F71A-4E32-A9B3-9FC339FAB333" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:46:20 -0500 References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> Cc: lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, IESG Message-Id: <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:46:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A2EB750E-F71A-4E32-A9B3-9FC339FAB333 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 There has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org that relates to the GIT = charter that is currently out for review. I know not everyone is = subscribed to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m posting them here as well. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > Subject: Re: sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to Github > Date: January 28, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM EST > To: Alissa Cooper , > Cc: Bob Hinden , "Matthew A. Miller" = , IETF >=20 > The charter explicitly calls out Github, rather than the more general = git. >=20 > This is, I think, depending on how you look at it, either an attempt = to focus the group or a category error, rather akin to the charters for = the DTN groups deciding from the outset that bundling was all that DTN = was, and now github is all that git is. >=20 > Further category error examples welcomed... >=20 > "How can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg = charter. No, Clippy is not in scope!" >=20 >=20 > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 > really looking forward to Clippy for GitHub and the Office Git = assistant, changing how reviewing is done. >=20 > On Sunday, January 27, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper = wrote: >=20 > Hi Lloyd, >=20 >> On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org = wrote: >>=20 >> +1 to Bob's unanswered question. and why is this new list = ietf-and-github and not ietf-and-git? >=20 > Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a separate one = for ietf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard to do. = As it stands both GitHub and git get discussed on the existing list, and = that=E2=80=99s not a problem IMO. >=20 > Before initiating chartering of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the = ietf-and-github list if people wanted separate lists for the WG and for = more general discussion. There was one comment in favor of using = ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current plan. >=20 > Alissa >=20 > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ = >=20 >> github is but one provider, backed by a proven monopolist... and that = was the choice? that's a question suitable for this general list. So, on = this thread topic, what viable alternatives are there? >>=20 >> it also strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss use of = github is not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or showing = github's strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face of the = idea. >>=20 >> Create a textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to github, = and then have discussions in the commit comments as everyone commits = added trailing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace github in = discussions, do it properly... >>=20 >>=20 >> Lloyd Wood >> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>=20 >> learn git? if I wanted to learn terse unmemorable commands that do = arcane things, I'd learn unix. >>=20 >> On Friday, January 25, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden = > wrote: >>=20 >> Matthew, >>=20 >> Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening on = the IETF list? Seems relevant to me. >>=20 >> Bob >>=20 >>=20 >> > On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller = > wrote: >> >=20 >> > All, >> >=20 >> > Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to < >> > ietf-and-github@ietf.org >. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Thank you, >> >=20 >> > - >> > Matthew A. Miller >> > IETF Sergeant-at-arms >> >=20 >> > On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector Santos wrote: >> >>> My opinion. >> >>>=20 >> >>> My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now = "requiring" to >> >>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a single purpose - RFC = Draft >> >>> submissions publishing. For people doing this all the time, and >> >>> probably also using the same tools for other parts of their = career, I >> >>> can understand it would be productive, but not for the occasional = author. >> >>>=20 >> >>> After several decades, I believe an application level IETF online = RFC >> >>> publishing tool should be available. In the past, I used XML2RFC = (a >> >>> java app) to outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't this >> >>> available any more? I would think a HTML5 version would be = doable >> >>> today, and of course, some vcs would be integrated at the = backend. >> >>>=20 >> >>> I personally don't want wish to be learning git details and all = the >> >>> other scripting tools and text formats for a single purpose. I = would if >> >>> I have to at some top level rudimentary level just to get the = job, but >> >>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career requirement for = me. >> >>=20 >> >> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, = there's a lot of truth to it >> >> :-) ) >> >>=20 >> >> Thanks, >> >>=20 >> >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A2EB750E-F71A-4E32-A9B3-9FC339FAB333 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 There= has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org that relates to the GIT charter that is = currently out for review. I know not everyone is subscribed to = ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m posting them here as well.

Begin forwarded message:

From: = lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: = Re: sr.ht --- = "sir hat" --- alternatives to Github
Date: = January 28, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM = EST
To: = Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, = <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Matthew A. Miller" <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>

The charter explicitly calls out Github, rather than the more general = git.

This is, I = think, depending on how you look at it, either an attempt to focus the = group or a category error, rather akin to the charters for the DTN = groups deciding from the outset that bundling was all that DTN was, and = now github is all that git is.

Further category error examples = welcomed...

"How= can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg charter. No, = Clippy is not in scope!"


Lloyd= Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

really looking forward to Clippy for = GitHub and the Office Git assistant, changing how reviewing is = done.

On Sunday, January 27, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> = wrote:

Hi Lloyd,

On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, = lloyd.wood=3D40y= ahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:

+1 to Bob's unanswered question. and why is this new list = ietf-and-github and not ietf-and-git?

Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a = separate one for ietf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t = be hard to do. As it stands both GitHub and git get discussed on the = existing list, and that=E2=80=99s not a problem IMO.

Before initiating chartering of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the = ietf-and-github list if people wanted separate lists for the WG and for = more general discussion. There was one comment in favor of using = ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current plan.

Alissa

[1] https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/

github is but one provider, backed by a proven = monopolist... and that was the choice? that's a question suitable for = this general list. So, on this thread topic, what viable alternatives = are there?

it also = strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss use of github is = not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or showing github's = strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face of the = idea.

Create a = textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to github, and then = have discussions in the commit comments as everyone commits added = trailing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace github in = discussions, do it properly...


Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

learn git? if = I wanted to learn terse unmemorable commands that do arcane things, I'd = learn unix.

On = Friday, January 25, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> = wrote:

Matthew,

Please = explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening on the IETF = list?  Seems relevant to me.

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. = Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> = wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Please direct all further discussion on = using GitHub to <
> ietf-and-github@ietf.org = >.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> -
> Matthew A. Miller
> IETF Sergeant-at-arms
>
> On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote:
>> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector = Santos wrote:
>>> My = opinion.
>>>
>>> My only concern is = the perception that the IETF is now "requiring" to
>>> learn a new suite of 3rd party = tools for a single purpose - RFC Draft
>>> submissions publishing.  For = people doing this all the time, and
>>> probably also using the same tools = for other parts of their career, I
>>> can understand it would be = productive, but not for the occasional author.
>>>
>>> After several decades, I believe an = application level IETF online RFC
>>> publishing tool should be = available.  In the past, I used XML2RFC (a
>>> java app) to outline, produce and = publish my drafts. Isn't this
>>> available any more?  I would = think a HTML5 version would be doable
>>> today, and of course, some vcs = would be integrated at the backend.
>>>
>>> I personally don't want wish to be = learning git details and all the
>>> other scripting tools and text = formats for a single purpose.  I would if
>>> I have to at some top level = rudimentary level just to get the job, but
>>> it is not desirable, and certainly = not a career requirement for me.
>>
>> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, = there's a lot of truth to it
>> :-) )
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>


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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YF+ehy99XrGQWHX3gotmjanobj9cR0z0LK9xPbvyxeI=; b=ZNt+OGQjGCxIF+v9rYkBkmjOCBFunhDesXmhcGIC97h32alStwMjIGmNgHTvSme9+N 6DzSkSrps98db18j7Zn+ZZDbQRMkW8IY7+HJTcb46mP/Mve55MgBVxXr8xv3vnGsPyJw gLjTbyd5AhxQZZShYUEUeKhmQmoz2fasXxpBdxoggvgnWj5ueEvDVoZcRKHMPyzELEvl mTTa5YoDAzThJS6jmC0ljRsaPEE9ycnAebrak04/4aZnVmA6Iptrdonpy0YQNG2oJ9NM 1JegiuXsrKChNASmspGkELa8fUth6mJUBJcB6Qs4ZOPGWJ14KjngCjq7hpEoEYDtNBI0 aOoQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YF+ehy99XrGQWHX3gotmjanobj9cR0z0LK9xPbvyxeI=; b=HhLcQ1lB2gM+Wlll/p3mbMG9G1qw3xeR4BYAVjUY8YIZ59PmpF+nO2FIT81nhk3cPt 7OfKNUVSKk2Gk8t3xPsheOp0B7+aIFUOeoTZdcYux5Mhv3tv6jZXl9FfOO9vnGRlKrce 1ylvF2HY/2PxgL0esFJhXzE9q6Y0ikOG53g2QiC5bOehcT4GFixr4xRpj34ShQ0kTkg+ 2jggLhXuVqMYhiAZC+0locBiW9F+fXCj7SLKJwKXtKlZc2AZrVynidOGkkN3RWpLSPMP Q33jHgqnKcA3KBYXHf6TOfH4xjg0H6xLd1fViUgpxTW1bBC+50T+f2pLpi65Yid0m3Vr TcuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUuke2taiu90qK+6D5Wne8E9CTdb9SGMS6+4X8++o4uZdDpcGMcoTH RODX56UUutv13fs2c9bxaeCfeHNmtJEOqOyuFG7LLg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7FCyEKPRtqBORHolYOzm8/Nb+rq5DHH66ik7k07tVy6ED1+l2zAElHcG7wgrrkj4IcM04P48dtV3ZHMGCyLIM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:9904:: with SMTP id b4mr21532946lfe.95.1548796139153; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:08:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:08:21 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" Cc: Alissa Cooper , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b455af05809f33b0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 21:09:06 -0000 --000000000000b455af05809f33b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable n Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:52 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > While the name of the mailing list is not really important per se, I also > find weird to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the charter = rather than =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 > or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99. > > Well, this stuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but I don't want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Github-type thing. > Especially when github.com does not have any AAAA :-( > This I strongly disagree with. We should be picking tools primarily on usefulness, not on whether we think they are adopting our protocols fast enough. -Ekr > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > *From: *iesg on behalf of Alissa Cooper < > alissa@cooperw.in> > *Date: *Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 14:46 > *To: *"ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , IESG < > iesg@ietf.org> > *Cc: *"lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" > *Subject: *Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling > (git) > > > > There has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org that relates to the GIT > charter that is currently out for review. I know not everyone is subscrib= ed > to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m posting them here as well. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > *From: *lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > *Subject: Re: sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to > Github* > > *Date: *January 28, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM EST > > *To: *Alissa Cooper , > > *Cc: *Bob Hinden , "Matthew A. Miller" < > linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, IETF > > > > The charter explicitly calls out Github, rather than the more general git= . > > > > This is, I think, depending on how you look at it, either an attempt to > focus the group or a category error, rather akin to the charters for the > DTN groups deciding from the outset that bundling was all that DTN was, a= nd > now github is all that git is. > > > > Further category error examples welcomed... > > > > "How can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg charter. > No, Clippy is not in scope!" > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > > really looking forward to Clippy for GitHub and the Office Git assistant, > changing how reviewing is done. > > > > On Sunday, January 27, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper > wrote: > > Hi Lloyd, > > > > On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org > wrote: > > > > +1 to Bob's unanswered question. and why is this new list ietf-and-github > and not ietf-and-git? > > > > Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a separate one for > ietf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard to do. As i= t stands > both GitHub and git get discussed on the existing list, and that=E2=80=99= s not a > problem IMO. > > > > Before initiating chartering of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the > ietf-and-github list if people wanted separate lists for the WG and for > more general discussion. There was one comment in favor of using > ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current plan. > > > > Alissa > > > > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ > > > > github is but one provider, backed by a proven monopolist... and that was > the choice? that's a question suitable for this general list. So, on this > thread topic, what viable alternatives are there? > > > > it also strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss use of githu= b > is not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or showing github's > strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face of the idea. > > > > Create a textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to github, and > then have discussions in the commit comments as everyone commits added > trailing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace github in > discussions, do it properly... > > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > > learn git? if I wanted to learn terse unmemorable commands that do arcane > things, I'd learn unix. > > > > On Friday, January 25, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden > wrote: > > Matthew, > > Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening on the = IETF > list? Seems relevant to me. > > Bob > > > > On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote: > > > > All, > > > > Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to < > > ietf-and-github@ietf.org >. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > - > > Matthew A. Miller > > IETF Sergeant-at-arms > > > > On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote: > >> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector Santos wrote: > >>> My opinion. > >>> > >>> My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now "requiring" to > >>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a single purpose - RFC Draft > >>> submissions publishing. For people doing this all the time, and > >>> probably also using the same tools for other parts of their career, I > >>> can understand it would be productive, but not for the occasional > author. > >>> > >>> After several decades, I believe an application level IETF online RFC > >>> publishing tool should be available. In the past, I used XML2RFC (a > >>> java app) to outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't this > >>> available any more? I would think a HTML5 version would be doable > >>> today, and of course, some vcs would be integrated at the backend. > >>> > >>> I personally don't want wish to be learning git details and all the > >>> other scripting tools and text formats for a single purpose. I would > if > >>> I have to at some top level rudimentary level just to get the job, bu= t > >>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career requirement for me. > >> > >> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, there's a lot of truth to it > >> :-) ) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > > > > > > > > --000000000000b455af05809f33b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
n Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:52 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <<= a href=3D"mailto:evyncke@cisco.com">evyncke@cisco.com> wrote:

While the name of the mailing list is not really imp= ortant per se, I also find weird to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2= =80=99 in the charter rather than =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-= like=E2=80=99.


Wel= l, this stuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but = I don't want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Git= hub-type thing.

=C2=A0

Especially when github.com does not have any AAAA :-(


This I strongly disagree with. We should be pick= ing tools primarily on usefulness, not on whether we think they are adoptin= g our protocols fast enough.

-Ekr

=C2=A0

-=C3=A9ric

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 14:46
To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooli= ng (git)

=C2=A0

There has been some discu= ssion on ietf@ietf.org that r= elates to the GIT charter that is currently out for review. I know not ever= yone is subscribed to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m posting them here as well.<= u>



Begin forwarded message:<= u>

=C2=A0

Subject: Re: sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to Github<= /span>

Date: January 2= 8, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM EST

To: Alissa Co= oper <alissa@coop= erw.in>, <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>

Cc: Bob Hinde= n <bob.hinden@= gmail.com>, "Matthew A. Miller" <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.= net>, IETF <ie= tf@ietf.org>

=C2=A0

The charter explicitly ca= lls out Github, rather than the more general git.

=C2=A0

This is, I think, dependi= ng on how you look at it, either an attempt to focus the group or a categor= y error, rather akin to the charters for the DTN groups deciding from the o= utset that bundling was all that DTN was, and now github is all that git is.

=C2=A0

Further category error ex= amples welcomed...

=C2=A0

"How can the IETF ta= ke advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg charter. No, Clippy is not = in scope!"


Lloyd Wood

=C2=A0

really looking forward to= Clippy for GitHub and the Office Git assistant, changing how reviewing is = done.

=C2=A0

On Sunday, January 2= 7, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

Hi Lloyd,



On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 = PM, lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:

=C2=A0

+1 to Bob's unanswere= d question. and why is this new list ietf-and-github and not ietf-and-git?

=C2=A0

Mailing lists are cheap. = If people felt that creating a separate one for ietf-and-git would be worth= while, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard to do. As it stands both GitHub and git = get discussed on the existing list, and that=E2=80=99s not a problem IMO.

=C2=A0

Before initiating charter= ing of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the ietf-and-github list if people wanted = separate lists for the WG and for more general discussion. There was one co= mment in favor of using ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current plan.

=C2=A0

Alissa

=C2=A0



github is but one provide= r, backed by a proven monopolist... and that was the choice? that's a q= uestion suitable for this general list. So, on this thread topic, what viab= le alternatives are there?

=C2=A0

it also strikes me that s= etting up a mailing list to discuss use of github is not really entering in= to the spirit of the thing, or showing github's strengths and weaknesse= s. it's very much the nice face of the idea.

=C2=A0

Create a textfile with th= e mailing list charter, commit it to github, and then have discussions in t= he commit comments as everyone commits added trailing spaces to that file. = if you're going to embrace github in discussions, do it properly...



Lloyd Wood

=C2=A0

learn git? if I wanted to= learn terse unmemorable commands that do arcane things, I'd learn unix= .

=C2=A0

On Friday, January 2= 5, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

Matthew,

Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening on the IE= TF list?=C2=A0 Seems relevant to me.

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to <
> ietf-and= -github@ietf.org >.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> -
> Matthew A. Miller
> IETF Sergeant-at-arms
>
> On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote:
>> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector Santos wrote:
>>> My opinion.
>>>
>>> My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now "r= equiring" to
>>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a single purpose - RF= C Draft
>>> submissions publishing.=C2=A0 For people doing this all the ti= me, and
>>> probably also using the same tools for other parts of their ca= reer, I
>>> can understand it would be productive, but not for the occasio= nal author.
>>>
>>> After several decades, I believe an application level IETF onl= ine RFC
>>> publishing tool should be available.=C2=A0 In the past, I used= XML2RFC (a
>>> java app) to outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't= this
>>> available any more?=C2=A0 I would think a HTML5 version would = be doable
>>> today, and of course, some vcs would be integrated at the back= end.
>>>
>>> I personally don't want wish to be learning git details an= d all the
>>> other scripting tools and text formats for a single purpose.= =C2=A0 I would if
>>> I have to at some top level rudimentary level just to get the = job, but
>>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career requirement fo= r me.
>>
>> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, there's a lot of truth to it
>> :-) )
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>

=C2=A0



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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5jIpl-blB-bb for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2019 08:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C479612D84D for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2019 08:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id 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"lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003265f20580af7d3c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:34:58 -0000 --0000000000003265f20580af7d3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:02 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Eric, > > > > Let=E2=80=99s state that indeed we disagree on this point... > > > > Leading by example is efficient and I cannot imagine having a tool or a > process of the IETF not using IPv6, or not using TLS or not having DNSEC.= .. > dig DS webex.com dig AAAA global-nebulaab9.webex.com Dunno about you, but I just started a webex and the media transport was all V4. This may be an anomaly - at some point webex was v6... dig rrsig yangcatalog.org dig rrsig rsync.tools.ietf.org dig rrsig xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org We have many tools which we use which don't have DNSSEC.... W > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > *From: *Eric Rescorla > *Date: *Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 22:09 > *To: *Eric Vyncke > *Cc: *Alissa Cooper , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" < > ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" > > *Subject: *Re: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and > Tooling (git) > > > > > > Especially when github.com does not have any AAAA :-( > > > > This I strongly disagree with. We should be picking tools primarily on > usefulness, not on whether we think they are adopting our protocols fast > enough. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > *From: *iesg on behalf of Alissa Cooper < > alissa@cooperw.in> > *Date: *Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 14:46 > *To: *"ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , IESG < > iesg@ietf.org> > *Cc: *"lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" > *Subject: *Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling > (git) > > > > There has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org that relates to the GIT > charter that is currently out for review. I know not everyone is subscrib= ed > to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m posting them here as well. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > *From: *lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > *Subject: Re: sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to > Github* > > *Date: *January 28, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM EST > > *To: *Alissa Cooper , > > *Cc: *Bob Hinden , "Matthew A. Miller" < > linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, IETF > > > > The charter explicitly calls out Github, rather than the more general git= . > > > > This is, I think, depending on how you look at it, either an attempt to > focus the group or a category error, rather akin to the charters for the > DTN groups deciding from the outset that bundling was all that DTN was, a= nd > now github is all that git is. > > > > Further category error examples welcomed... > > > > "How can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg charter. > No, Clippy is not in scope!" > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > > really looking forward to Clippy for GitHub and the Office Git assistant, > changing how reviewing is done. > > > > On Sunday, January 27, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper > wrote: > > Hi Lloyd, > > > > On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org > wrote: > > > > +1 to Bob's unanswered question. and why is this new list ietf-and-github > and not ietf-and-git? > > > > Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a separate one for > ietf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard to do. As i= t stands > both GitHub and git get discussed on the existing list, and that=E2=80=99= s not a > problem IMO. > > > > Before initiating chartering of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the > ietf-and-github list if people wanted separate lists for the WG and for > more general discussion. There was one comment in favor of using > ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current plan. > > > > Alissa > > > > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ > > > > github is but one provider, backed by a proven monopolist... and that was > the choice? that's a question suitable for this general list. So, on this > thread topic, what viable alternatives are there? > > > > it also strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss use of githu= b > is not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or showing github's > strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face of the idea. > > > > Create a textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to github, and > then have discussions in the commit comments as everyone commits added > trailing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace github in > discussions, do it properly... > > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > > learn git? if I wanted to learn terse unmemorable commands that do arcane > things, I'd learn unix. > > > > On Friday, January 25, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden > wrote: > > Matthew, > > Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening on the = IETF > list? Seems relevant to me. > > Bob > > > > On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote: > > > > All, > > > > Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to < > > ietf-and-github@ietf.org >. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > - > > Matthew A. Miller > > IETF Sergeant-at-arms > > > > On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote: > >> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector Santos wrote: > >>> My opinion. > >>> > >>> My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now "requiring" to > >>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a single purpose - RFC Draft > >>> submissions publishing. For people doing this all the time, and > >>> probably also using the same tools for other parts of their career, I > >>> can understand it would be productive, but not for the occasional > author. > >>> > >>> After several decades, I believe an application level IETF online RFC > >>> publishing tool should be available. In the past, I used XML2RFC (a > >>> java app) to outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't this > >>> available any more? I would think a HTML5 version would be doable > >>> today, and of course, some vcs would be integrated at the backend. > >>> > >>> I personally don't want wish to be learning git details and all the > >>> other scripting tools and text formats for a single purpose. I would > if > >>> I have to at some top level rudimentary level just to get the job, bu= t > >>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career requirement for me. > >> > >> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, there's a lot of truth to it > >> :-) ) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > > > > > > > > --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --0000000000003265f20580af7d3c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, J= an 30, 2019 at 9:02 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> wrote:

Eric,

=C2=A0

Let=E2=80=99s state that indeed we disagree on this = point...

=C2=A0

Leading by example is efficient and I cannot imagine= having a tool or a process of the IETF not using IPv6, or not using TLS or= not having DNSEC...


dig DS= webex.com
dig AAAA global-nebulaab9.webex.com
Dunno about you, but I just sta= rted a webex and the media transport was all V4. This may be an ano= maly - at some point webex was v6...

=
dig rrsig yangcatalog.org

dig rrsig xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org=C2=A0

We have many tools which we use which don't have DNSSEC....=C2=A0

W



=

=C2=A0

-=C3=A9ric

=C2=A0

From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 22:09
To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf= .org>, IESG <i= esg@ietf.org>, "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and T= ooling (git)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This I strongly disagree = with. We should be picking tools primarily on usefulness, not on whether we= think they are adopting our protocols fast enough.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

-=C3=A9ric

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alissa = Cooper <alissa@co= operw.in>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 14:46
To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooli= ng (git)

=C2=A0

There has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org that relates to the GIT charter that is currently out for= review. I know not everyone is subscribed to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m pos= ting them here as well.

=C2=A0

Begin forwarded message:

=C2=A0

Subject: Re: sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to Github<= /u>

Date: = January 28, 2019 at = 6:49:12 AM EST

To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>= ;, <lloyd.wo= od@yahoo.co.uk>

Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com= >, "Matthew A. Miller" <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org<= /a>>

=C2=A0

The charter explicitly calls out Github, rather than the more general git. =

=C2=A0

This is, I think, depending on how you look at it, either an attempt to foc= us the group or a category error, rather akin to the charters for the DTN g= roups deciding from the outset that bundling was all that DTN was, and now = github is all that git is.

=C2=A0

Further category error examples welcomed...

=C2=A0

"How can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg ch= arter. No, Clippy is not in scope!"


Lloyd Wood

=C2=A0

really looking forward to Clippy for GitHub and the Office Git assistant, c= hanging how reviewing is done.

=C2=A0

On Sunday, January 2= 7, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

Hi Lloyd,

=C2=A0

On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:

=C2=A0

+1 to Bob's unanswered question. and why is this new list ietf-and-gith= ub and not ietf-and-git?

=C2=A0

Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a separate one for ie= tf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard to do. As it st= ands both GitHub and git get discussed on the existing list, and that=E2=80= =99s not a problem IMO.

=C2=A0

Before initiating chartering of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the ietf-and-gith= ub list if people wanted separate lists for the WG and for more general dis= cussion. There was one comment in favor of using ietf-and-github for the WG= . That is the current plan.

=C2=A0

Alissa

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

github is but one provider, backed by a proven monopolist... and that was t= he choice? that's a question suitable for this general list. So, on thi= s thread topic, what viable alternatives are there?

=C2=A0

it also strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss use of github = is not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or showing github'= s strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face of the idea.

=C2=A0

Create a textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to github, and t= hen have discussions in the commit comments as everyone commits added trail= ing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace github in discussio= ns, do it properly...



Lloyd Wood

=C2=A0

learn git? if I wanted to learn terse unmemorable commands that do arcane t= hings, I'd learn unix.

=C2=A0

On Friday, January 2= 5, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

Matthew,

Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening on the IE= TF list?=C2=A0 Seems relevant to me.

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to <
> ietf-and= -github@ietf.org >.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> -
> Matthew A. Miller
> IETF Sergeant-at-arms
>
> On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote:
>> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector Santos wrote:
>>> My opinion.
>>>
>>> My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now "r= equiring" to
>>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a single purpose - RF= C Draft
>>> submissions publishing.=C2=A0 For people doing this all the ti= me, and
>>> probably also using the same tools for other parts of their ca= reer, I
>>> can understand it would be productive, but not for the occasio= nal author.
>>>
>>> After several decades, I believe an application level IETF onl= ine RFC
>>> publishing tool should be available.=C2=A0 In the past, I used= XML2RFC (a
>>> java app) to outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't= this
>>> available any more?=C2=A0 I would think a HTML5 version would = be doable
>>> today, and of course, some vcs would be integrated at the back= end.
>>>
>>> I personally don't want wish to be learning git details an= d all the
>>> other scripting tools and text formats for a single purpose.= =C2=A0 I would if
>>> I have to at some top level rudimentary level just to get the = job, but
>>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career requirement fo= r me.
>>
>> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, there's a lot of truth to it
>> :-) )
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



--
I don't think the execution is relevant when= it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting ra= bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho= se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<= /div>
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RECEIVED FROM EXTERNAL SENDER] Re: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:38:42 -0000 --_000_BCA85FF310F24CED828410D9383241E9akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SXNu4oCZdCDigJx3ZeKAmXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgcHJvdG9jb2wgcG9saWNl4oCdIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUg YXBob3Jpc21zIHdlIGxpa2UgdG8gc2F5IGFib3V0IG91cnNlbHZlcywgc2hvcnRseSBhZnRlciBy b3VnaCBjb25zZW5zdXMgYW5kIHJ1bm5pbmcgY29kZT8NCg== --_000_BCA85FF310F24CED828410D9383241E9akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2B8F3427C54F204B8681D201446F6CCA@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1i b3R0b206LjAwMDFwdDsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJp IixzYW5zLXNlcmlmO30NCmE6bGluaywgc3Bhbi5Nc29IeXBlcmxpbmsNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXBy aW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOmJsdWU7DQoJdGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9uOnVuZGVybGluZTt9DQph OnZpc2l0ZWQsIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rRm9sbG93ZWQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5 Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOnB1cnBsZTsNCgl0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246dW5kZXJsaW5lO30NCnAubXNv bm9ybWFsMCwgbGkubXNvbm9ybWFsMCwgZGl2Lm1zb25vcm1hbDANCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLW5hbWU6 bXNvbm9ybWFsOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4tdG9wLWFsdDphdXRvOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1yaWdodDowaW47 DQoJbXNvLW1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b20tYWx0OmF1dG87DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluOw0KCWZvbnQt c2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5n bWFpbGRlZmF1bHQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLW5hbWU6Z21haWxfZGVmYXVsdDt9DQpwLmdtYWlsLW0t NzI2OTkwNzUzNDA1OTI4OTM5MmdtYWlsLW04OTg0MDE1ODcyMTQ3MDYxNDMyeWFob28tcXVvdGVk LWJlZ2luLCBsaS5nbWFpbC1tLTcyNjk5MDc1MzQwNTkyODkzOTJnbWFpbC1tODk4NDAxNTg3MjE0 NzA2MTQzMnlhaG9vLXF1b3RlZC1iZWdpbiwgZGl2LmdtYWlsLW0tNzI2OTkwNzUzNDA1OTI4OTM5 MmdtYWlsLW04OTg0MDE1ODcyMTQ3MDYxNDMyeWFob28tcXVvdGVkLWJlZ2luDQoJe21zby1zdHls ZS1uYW1lOmdtYWlsLW1fLTcyNjk5MDc1MzQwNTkyODkzOTJnbWFpbC1tODk4NDAxNTg3MjE0NzA2 MTQzMnlhaG9vLXF1b3RlZC1iZWdpbjsNCgltc28tbWFyZ2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6YXV0bzsNCgltYXJn aW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tLWFsdDphdXRvOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0 OjBpbjsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNl cmlmO30NCnAuZ21haWwtbS03MjY5OTA3NTM0MDU5Mjg5MzkyZ21haWwtbTg5ODQwMTU4NzIxNDcw NjE0MzJ5aXYwOTE4MzMxOTI1eWFob28tcXVvdGVkLWJlZ2luLCBsaS5nbWFpbC1tLTcyNjk5MDc1 MzQwNTkyODkzOTJnbWFpbC1tODk4NDAxNTg3MjE0NzA2MTQzMnlpdjA5MTgzMzE5MjV5YWhvby1x dW90ZWQtYmVnaW4sIGRpdi5nbWFpbC1tLTcyNjk5MDc1MzQwNTkyODkzOTJnbWFpbC1tODk4NDAx NTg3MjE0NzA2MTQzMnlpdjA5MTgzMzE5MjV5YWhvby1xdW90ZWQtYmVnaW4NCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxl LW5hbWU6Z21haWwtbV8tNzI2OTkwNzUzNDA1OTI4OTM5MmdtYWlsLW04OTg0MDE1ODcyMTQ3MDYx NDMyeWl2MDkxODMzMTkyNXlhaG9vLXF1b3RlZC1iZWdpbjsNCgltc28tbWFyZ2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6 YXV0bzsNCgltYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tLWFsdDphdXRvOw0K CW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBpbjsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxp YnJpIixzYW5zLXNlcmlmO30NCnNwYW4uRW1haWxTdHlsZTIxDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOnBl cnNvbmFsLXJlcGx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNlcmlmOw0KCWNvbG9y OndpbmRvd3RleHQ7fQ0KLk1zb0NocERlZmF1bHQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6ZXhwb3J0LW9u bHk7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjEwLjBwdDt9DQpAcGFnZSBXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjENCgl7c2l6ZTo4LjVp biAxMS4waW47DQoJbWFyZ2luOjEuMGluIDEuMGluIDEuMGluIDEuMGluO30NCmRpdi5Xb3JkU2Vj dGlvbjENCgl7cGFnZTpXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjE7fQ0KLS0+PC9zdHlsZT4NCjwvaGVhZD4NCjxib2R5 IGxhbmc9IkVOLVVTIiBsaW5rPSJibHVlIiB2bGluaz0icHVycGxlIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9Ildv cmRTZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5Jc27igJl0IOKAnHdl4oCZcmUgbm90 IHRoZSBwcm90b2NvbCBwb2xpY2XigJ0gb25lIG9mIHRoZSBhcGhvcmlzbXMgd2UgbGlrZSB0byBz YXkgYWJvdXQgb3Vyc2VsdmVzLCBzaG9ydGx5IGFmdGVyIHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBhbmQgcnVu bmluZyBjb2RlPzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_BCA85FF310F24CED828410D9383241E9akamaicom_-- From nobody Wed Jan 30 09:49:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDCB1312DA; 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Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:49:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1548870569; bh=tf/hzcOSbOwUzCM98AUpPccWxHiAprow4GrucIQFqWI=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=lczxWKsc+PxtRi7fNx0osCxuF+JNcaKlwIm5otDxloLTwkBdOfz5VEoPi0l+gOzH1 U0tIWSzRTxdAYHR75AM1a6suNujDuSABrTz34KeQ7+WnbsynbLnYYEtaYaZi5mLhyC JZ5m/qJ7IY725ZTW83Ff9jLGyfZPCyBob2NSbDqI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <12968C07-29F0-4B80-8ADD-125E2F61A393@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8C2F1092-87E7-4CDB-8480-819A9BE73449"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:49:19 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eric Rescorla , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper , IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 17:49:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8C2F1092-87E7-4CDB-8480-819A9BE73449 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E47C951C-3645-424C-9FD5-4FE94D7CA406" --Apple-Mail=_E47C951C-3645-424C-9FD5-4FE94D7CA406 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have to agree with Ekr on this. I can see using lack of support for = some IETF technology as a deciding factor between two solutions that = otherwise work for us. But we should not reject a solution over the lack = of such support unless it has a practical impact on useability. (I am agonistic as to whether this particular limitation has a practical = impact.) Ben. > On Jan 30, 2019, at 8:02 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: >=20 > Eric, >=20 > Let=E2=80=99s state that indeed we disagree on this point... >=20 > Leading by example is efficient and I cannot imagine having a tool or = a process of the IETF not using IPv6, or not using TLS or not having = DNSEC... >=20 > -=C3=A9ric >=20 > From: Eric Rescorla > Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 22:09 > To: Eric Vyncke > Cc: Alissa Cooper , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" = , IESG , = "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" > Subject: Re: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and = Tooling (git) >=20 >=20 >> Especially when github.com does not have any = AAAA :-( >=20 > This I strongly disagree with. We should be picking tools primarily on = usefulness, not on whether we think they are adopting our protocols fast = enough. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >>=20 >> -=C3=A9ric >>=20 >> From: iesg > on = behalf of Alissa Cooper > >> Date: Tuesday, 29 January 2019 at 14:46 >> To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org " = >, IESG = > >> Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk " = > >> Subject: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and = Tooling (git) >>=20 >> There has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org = that relates to the GIT charter that is currently = out for review. I know not everyone is subscribed to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80= =99m posting them here as well. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Begin forwarded message: >>>=20 >>> From: lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>> Subject: Re: sr.ht --- "sir hat" --- alternatives to = Github >>> Date: January 28, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM EST >>> To: Alissa Cooper >, = > >>> Cc: Bob Hinden >, = "Matthew A. Miller" >, IETF > >>>=20 >>> The charter explicitly calls out Github, rather than the more = general git. >>>=20 >>> This is, I think, depending on how you look at it, either an attempt = to focus the group or a category error, rather akin to the charters for = the DTN groups deciding from the outset that bundling was all that DTN = was, and now github is all that git is. >>>=20 >>> Further category error examples welcomed... >>>=20 >>> "How can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a wg = charter. No, Clippy is not in scope!" >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Lloyd Wood >>> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>>=20 >>> really looking forward to Clippy for GitHub and the Office Git = assistant, changing how reviewing is done. >>>=20 >>> On Sunday, January 27, 2019, 1:15 pm, Alissa Cooper = > wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hi Lloyd, >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, = lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> +1 to Bob's unanswered question. and why is this new list = ietf-and-github and not ietf-and-git? >>>>=20 >>>> Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a separate = one for ietf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be hard to = do. As it stands both GitHub and git get discussed on the existing list, = and that=E2=80=99s not a problem IMO. >>>>=20 >>>> Before initiating chartering of the GIT WG [1] I asked on the = ietf-and-github list if people wanted separate lists for the WG and for = more general discussion. There was one comment in favor of using = ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current plan. >>>>=20 >>>> Alissa >>>>=20 >>>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ = >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> github is but one provider, backed by a proven monopolist... and = that was the choice? that's a question suitable for this general list. = So, on this thread topic, what viable alternatives are there? >>>>>=20 >>>>> it also strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss use = of github is not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or = showing github's strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face = of the idea. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Create a textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to = github, and then have discussions in the commit comments as everyone = commits added trailing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace = github in discussions, do it properly... >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Lloyd Wood >>>>> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>>>>=20 >>>>> learn git? if I wanted to learn terse unmemorable commands that do = arcane things, I'd learn unix. >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Friday, January 25, 2019, 3:44 am, Bob Hinden = > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Matthew, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be happening = on the IETF list? Seems relevant to me. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Bob >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> > On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller = > wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > All, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to < >>>>>> > ietf-and-github@ietf.org >. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thank you, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > - >>>>>> > Matthew A. Miller >>>>>> > IETF Sergeant-at-arms >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote: >>>>>> >> On 22/1/19 20:31, Hector Santos wrote: >>>>>> >>> My opinion. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now = "requiring" to >>>>>> >>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a single purpose - = RFC Draft >>>>>> >>> submissions publishing. For people doing this all the time, = and >>>>>> >>> probably also using the same tools for other parts of their = career, I >>>>>> >>> can understand it would be productive, but not for the = occasional author. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> After several decades, I believe an application level IETF = online RFC >>>>>> >>> publishing tool should be available. In the past, I used = XML2RFC (a >>>>>> >>> java app) to outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't = this >>>>>> >>> available any more? I would think a HTML5 version would be = doable >>>>>> >>> today, and of course, some vcs would be integrated at the = backend. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I personally don't want wish to be learning git details and = all the >>>>>> >>> other scripting tools and text formats for a single purpose. = I would if >>>>>> >>> I have to at some top level rudimentary level just to get the = job, but >>>>>> >>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career requirement = for me. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/=C2=A0 = (yes, there's a lot of truth to it >>>>>> >> :-) ) >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Thanks, >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > --Apple-Mail=_E47C951C-3645-424C-9FD5-4FE94D7CA406 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = have to agree with Ekr on this. I can see using lack of support for some = IETF technology as a deciding factor between two solutions that = otherwise work for us. But we should not reject a solution over the lack = of such support unless it has a practical impact on useability.

(I am agonistic as to = whether this particular limitation has a practical impact.)

Ben.

On Jan 30, 2019, at 8:02 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> = wrote:

Eric,
 
Let=E2=80=99= s state that indeed we disagree on this point... 
 
Leading = by example is efficient and I cannot imagine having a tool or a process = of the IETF not using IPv6, or not using TLS or not having DNSEC...
 
-=C3=A9ric<= o:p class=3D"">
 
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January = 2019 at 22:09
To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, = "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Comments related to = WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git)
 
 
Especially = when github.com does not have any AAAA = :-(
 
This I strongly disagree with. We should be = picking tools primarily on usefulness, not on whether we think they are = adopting our protocols fast enough.
 
-Ekr
 
 
-=C3=A9ric<= o:p class=3D"">
 
From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alissa Cooper = <alissa@cooperw.in>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January = 2019 at 14:46
To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Comments related to WG = Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git)
 
There has been some discussion on ietf@ietf.org that relates to the GIT = charter that is currently out for review. I know not everyone is = subscribed to ietf@ietf, so I=E2=80=99m posting them here as well.

 

Begin= forwarded message:
 
From: lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: sr.ht ---= "sir hat" --- alternatives to Github
Date: January = 28, 2019 at 6:49:12 AM EST
To: Alissa = Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: Bob Hinden = <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Matthew A. Miller" <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
 
The charter explicitly = calls out Github, rather than the more general git. 
 
This is, I think, depending on how you = look at it, either an attempt to focus the group or a category error, = rather akin to the charters for the DTN groups deciding from the outset = that bundling was all that DTN was, and now github is all that git = is.
 
Further category error = examples welcomed...
 
"How can the IETF take advantage of Windows 10? We'll need a = wg charter. No, Clippy is not in scope!"


Lloyd Wood 
 
really looking forward to Clippy for = GitHub and the Office Git assistant, changing how reviewing is done.
 

On Sunday, January 27, 2019, 1:15 = pm, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

Hi Lloyd,

 

On = Jan 25, 2019, at 5:49 PM, lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:
 
+1 to Bob's unanswered = question. and why is this new list ietf-and-github and not = ietf-and-git?
 
Mailing lists are cheap. If people felt that creating a = separate one for ietf-and-git would be worthwhile, it wouldn=E2=80=99t = be hard to do. As it stands both GitHub and git get discussed on the = existing list, and that=E2=80=99s not a problem IMO.
 
Before initiating chartering of the GIT = WG [1] I asked on the ietf-and-github list if people wanted separate = lists for the WG and for more general discussion. There was one comment = in favor of using ietf-and-github for the WG. That is the current = plan.
 
Alissa
 

 

github is but one = provider, backed by a proven monopolist... and that was the choice? = that's a question suitable for this general list. So, on this thread = topic, what viable alternatives are there?
 
it also strikes me that setting up a mailing list to discuss = use of github is not really entering into the spirit of the thing, or = showing github's strengths and weaknesses. it's very much the nice face = of the idea.
 
Create a textfile with the mailing list charter, commit it to = github, and then have discussions in the commit comments as everyone = commits added trailing spaces to that file. if you're going to embrace = github in discussions, do it properly...


Lloyd Wood 
 
learn git? if I wanted to learn terse = unmemorable commands that do arcane things, I'd learn unix.
 

On Friday, January 25, 2019, 3:44 = am, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

Matthew,

Please explain why this discussion shouldn=E2=80=99t be = happening on the IETF list?  Seems relevant to me.

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2019, at = 7:53 AM, Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net> wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> Please direct all further discussion on using GitHub to = <
> ietf-and-github@ietf.org >.
> 
> 
> Thank = you,
> 
> -
> Matthew A. Miller
> IETF = Sergeant-at-arms
> 
> On = 19/01/24 08:23, Fernando Gont wrote:
>> On 22/1/19 = 20:31, Hector Santos wrote:
>>> My opinion.
>>> 
>>> = My only concern is the perception that the IETF is now "requiring" to
>>> learn a new suite of 3rd party tools for a = single purpose - RFC Draft
>>> submissions = publishing.  For people doing this all the time, and
>>> probably also using the same tools for other = parts of their career, I
>>> can understand it = would be productive, but not for the occasional author.
>>> 
>>> = After several decades, I believe an application level IETF online RFC
>>> publishing tool should be available.  In = the past, I used XML2RFC (a
>>> java app) to = outline, produce and publish my drafts. Isn't this
>>> available any more?  I would think a HTML5 = version would be doable
>>> today, and of course, = some vcs would be integrated at the backend.
>>> 
>>> = I personally don't want wish to be learning git details and all the
>>> other scripting tools and text formats for a = single purpose.  I would if
>>> I have to at = some top level rudimentary level just to get the job, but
>>> it is not desirable, and certainly not a career = requirement for me.
>> 
>> = Don't worry: https://xkcd.com/1597/ (yes, there's a lot of = truth to it
>> :-) )
>> 
>> = Thanks,
>> 
> 

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Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:51:12 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:51:12 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" Cc: Alissa Cooper , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004949860580b08e43" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 17:51:16 -0000 --0000000000004949860580b08e43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On January 29, 2019 at 4:09:09 PM, Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) wrote: While the name of the mailing list is not really important per se, I also find weird to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the charter ra= ther than =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99. Well, this stuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but I don't want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Github-type thing. Thinking out loud: Is there a way to generalize the charter to deal with Github-type things, while having the WG explicitly focus on Github initially? IOW, the deliverables would be focus on Github, with the possibility to deal with variants once the initial work is done. My 1c. Alvaro. --0000000000004949860580b08e43 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On January 29, 2019 at 4:09:09 PM, Eric Rescorla= (ekr@rtfm.com) wrote:

While the na= me of the mailing list is not really important per se, I also find weird to= explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the charter rather than =E2= =80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99.

Well, this s= tuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but I don'= ;t want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Github-type = thing.

Thinking out loud: =C2=A0Is = there a way to generalize the charter to deal with Github-type things, whil= e having the WG explicitly focus on Github initially?=C2=A0 IOW, the delive= rables would be focus on Github, with the possibility to deal with variants= once the initial work is done.

My 1c.

Alvaro.


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([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 30 Jan 2019 13:39:06 -0500 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Ben Campbell CC: Eric Rescorla , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper , IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Thread-Topic: Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) Thread-Index: AQHUt9kQqfRXJ1OOgk2yg46mefJjyaXG2vwAgAA2qoCAASwFAIAALrSAgAAeq4A= Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:39:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> <12968C07-29F0-4B80-8ADD-125E2F61A393@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <12968C07-29F0-4B80-8ADD-125E2F61A393@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.15.0.190117 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.236.232] Content-Type: 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Cc: Alissa Cooper , Eric Rescorla , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> <12968C07-29F0-4B80-8ADD-125E2F61A393@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <822842b1-27b1-00bc-6550-98538e0ddc34@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 08:44:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12968C07-29F0-4B80-8ADD-125E2F61A393@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 19:44:22 -0000 On 2019-01-31 06:49, Ben Campbell wrote: > I have to agree with Ekr on this. I can see using lack of support for some IETF technology as a deciding factor between two solutions that otherwise work for us. But we should not reject a solution over the lack of such support unless it has a practical impact on useability. > > (I am agonistic as to whether this particular limitation has a practical impact.) Does GitHub work for a user on an IPv6-only network with NAT64/DNS64 connectivity to the IPv4 legacy Internet? If yes, it's compatible with our dog food. If not, does this have a practical impact on any participants? Brian From nobody Wed Jan 30 14:28:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631E7130F0D; Wed, 30 Jan 2019 14:28:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=evequefou.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U3jB5FceO-X4; Wed, 30 Jan 2019 14:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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