From nobody Mon Feb 4 11:58:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80213124C04; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 11:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=qSdE3Z1G; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=AzHZwxtw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lkv4WNdOAIjg; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 11:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31DB8124B0C; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 11:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000A621FED; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Feb 2019 14:58:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; s=fm2; bh=DV4CL6YG1ACayx0LVwcq4vL mIYo5LDd2KPl33JkFNhI=; b=qSdE3Z1G+BPmZUtM2FxpXOeVfJDCkuAWazWyH4b ewdaIVClQFjFixV3QmsV2SuSbAdG1WvOj6fIs8Jr31iE25HqIVTU80VUE7c/+Uzb BtDSx1BdVSn8GejPjwi4TGCcEyuNB3dzP0tQWyfCURbkm4q81IFAdC9oQNLwE0A6 +EXSgIHSD8bAA6a1iK9RASETDl+bFcs//A0G4TD22ivGi9TNW+ABy0dlkdkzDgXd z5QLwFrIBK9FZHta01tR9bRuk2syCEkFXDoctq4gOL/+oTewz7ULZdErdVZRQ5Y3 C6IYdq4I2oLSD7m14Yn2h0ImYDkhum4A3t3ga3fm/bviPvA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=DV4CL6 YG1ACayx0LVwcq4vLmIYo5LDd2KPl33JkFNhI=; b=AzHZwxtw5ESdvrFQrX0OwF EIvI4MbZLBswjAiu2cnVLE8DiH5gakhFeL8WUyWo4G7Lobf5EnQUQLxsumVxoyZz RhLe+7GM+AwRblTrtlQyijAitd4LZJhXvbSVlHj6UsrNvWIUTV3+mfPmPsXvRBzk pIrdCPc4vzgoKWV45IE7F/PNRWlB6E2jR+PZbbyiAwjq3FFnF4S+lbB6qwdzUiw9 Px8dhctu+oD/Zxo2xsM1o53C/+Y+o+VnNMHwao0JptkL7jmov7RaLYQw0UX8xR6J ZSn1MQUGS3oWEWgefhZJS9sx5OViiwbcyb98ZU+lya8dXJTVx8bg6neg5Zuk/Uvg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledrkeeggddufedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhkfgtggfuff gjvfhfofesrgdtmherhhdtjeenucfhrhhomheptehlihhsshgrucevohhophgvrhcuoegr lhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtoh hmpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdejudenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-vpn6-666.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.71]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 052DEE436D; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:58:41 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2A0D97E7-DB63-4C23-9430-C77CDE936470" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:58:40 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Alvaro Retana , Eric Rescorla , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , IESG , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" , Mike Bishop To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 19:58:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2A0D97E7-DB63-4C23-9430-C77CDE936470 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I made a suggested addition in response to this thread so that is clear = what is and is not in scope: = https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/pull/1/files Thoughts? Alissa > On Jan 30, 2019, at 5:28 PM, Mike Bishop wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6possibility to deal with variants after the initial = work is done=E2=80=9D sounds an awful lot like a recharter. > =20 > I=E2=80=99m inclined to think that charters don=E2=80=99t need to = discuss what will happen after a future recharter, but there is some = precedent for doing so. In QUIC=E2=80=99s charter, for example: = =E2=80=9CUpon completion of [HTTP], additional protocols may be added by = updating this charter to include them.=E2=80=9D > =20 > From: Ietf-and-github > On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:51 AM > To: Eric Rescorla >; Eric Vyncke = (evyncke) > > Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org ; Alissa = Cooper >; IESG = >; lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk = > Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub = Integration and Tooling (git) > =20 > On January 29, 2019 at 4:09:09 PM, Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com = ) wrote: > While the name of the mailing list is not really important per se, I = also find weird to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the = charter rather than =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99= . > Well, this stuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, = but I don't want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant = Github-type thing. > Thinking out loud: Is there a way to generalize the charter to deal = with Github-type things, while having the WG explicitly focus on Github = initially? IOW, the deliverables would be focus on Github, with the = possibility to deal with variants once the initial work is done. >=20 > My 1c. >=20 > Alvaro. >=20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github = --Apple-Mail=_2A0D97E7-DB63-4C23-9430-C77CDE936470 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = made a suggested addition in response to this thread so that is clear = what is and is not in scope: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/pull/1/files<= /a>

Thoughts?

Alissa

On Jan 30, 2019, at 5:28 PM, = Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

=E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6possibility to deal with variants after the = initial work is done=E2=80=9D sounds an awful lot like a recharter.
 
I=E2=80=99m= inclined to think that charters don=E2=80=99t need to discuss what will = happen after a future recharter, but there is some precedent for doing = so.  In QUIC=E2=80=99s charter, for example:  =E2=80=9CUpon = completion of [HTTP], additional protocols may be added by updating this = charter to include them.=E2=80=9D
 
From: Ietf-and-github <ietf-and-github-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Alvaro = Retana
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 = 2:51 AM
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org; = Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>;= IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] = Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git)
 
On January 29, 2019 at = 4:09:09 PM, Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) = wrote:
While = the name of the mailing list is not really important per se, I also find = weird to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the charter = rather than =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99.
Well, this = stuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but I don't = want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Github-type = thing.
Thinking out loud:  Is there a way to = generalize the charter to deal with Github-type things, while having the = WG explicitly focus on Github initially?  IOW, the deliverables = would be focus on Github, with the possibility to deal with variants = once the initial work is done.

My 1c.

Alvaro.

 
_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing = list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github=
= --Apple-Mail=_2A0D97E7-DB63-4C23-9430-C77CDE936470-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 14:50:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D024B1277D2; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:49:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a9znYGEuTqgu; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 632A0127598; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id w25so2636780otm.13; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 14:49:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mpbsfTyCWRh9RXSmR4U0XY0keL48dOIAvSZOqBu9UDs=; b=EtUgdh1bsF7cFDnqhbHSpjS/Y91RSGfmuGNop9HLWey8C0S20QIDNMG1KstD7eSvR3 kY9t+lhJUM2pk+Yi22jYMcDDK6G1IQv4wJ+po9DlUpD+Ik/XJeD25HbzTHSIqqGl5wrJ d9iTPHhQBcLGYC0NIAyI5T6eZTV5K+ZfrsMGBgTyTqNw9nM6jMWw0V589zfFK4tOTSCU yWb6s25JercxpOZYOrOhWqLbux3hBlWslTh1Gl3ycFUy3I+xQ0o2q3MBBEPIEwaNSCPs YKLD7yZX+8fkJNv8K/BjsGZSAjzbT5jvxQTEW5+/mb7soo1VwZv66zzudmgVFcXxzfRM JrRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mpbsfTyCWRh9RXSmR4U0XY0keL48dOIAvSZOqBu9UDs=; b=ASPSAYYFLqOZFfffFbaV1Fyy7zXpj7UWx+EJVli7/JlJUybOHRjRoBLWpS/K6StIQE qzuZNawqqdmsyo5mbIPDhYvU3MU/ikrHO5S9vkkQT8FB8YzTeKQlx/PkXFXdXFnoEEBI 1Yy33Lq/duUo7DjuI5fls+EfNnUBMt99s4lydps4meB01sj89LJf/7BBfSApjWPr6yfj IYfZdayTJbtnLqNU2gKbMQDskWsu7mtTkt0utv3ye8awKkn02BfSTkjcAC/0xO3tQnVV D7bCj37m1kblbu61qSILJzrd5FMPqkHyPqH471glTBo0TALNEMGtKuxKCWkd0pGk9bq0 em4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYhyRfMkn8/TqTqGgTqTmNgUOzUabM/DqFe6iTVZv6nfQ37UBlC T8iKV5HtvzfXfeGVzBxAWSYXnv5KXIJDLFBTuhE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYf935oW2FgQJIn5Wp3Gx97WxxWuH4CpsFeYbHW825S/5WieeWGa2r2VtMfiWK3yGpouiiN4rtPiO6Mh1jYG9o= X-Received: by 2002:aca:e6c1:: with SMTP id d184mr891626oih.316.1549320595603; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 14:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:49:55 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <1589093219.3690074.1548676152864@mail.yahoo.com> <39382410-D962-4255-BFD1-8F222F742B1A@cooperw.in> <63798F14-8167-4F4D-B294-64A6379E6C65@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:49:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Cc: Eric Rescorla , Mike Bishop , IESG , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be86040581194f6a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 22:49:59 -0000 --000000000000be86040581194f6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On February 4, 2019 at 2:58:43 PM, Alissa Cooper (alissa@cooperw.in) wrote: I made a suggested addition in response to this thread so that is clear what is and is not in scope: https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/pull/1/files Thoughts? That works for me. Thanks! Alvaro. Alissa On Jan 30, 2019, at 5:28 PM, Mike Bishop wrote: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6possibility to deal with variants after the initial work = is done=E2=80=9D sounds an awful lot like a recharter. I=E2=80=99m inclined to think that charters don=E2=80=99t need to discuss w= hat will happen after a future recharter, but there is some precedent for doing so. In QUIC=E2=80=99s charter, for example: =E2=80=9CUpon completion of [HTTP], a= dditional protocols may be added by updating this charter to include them.=E2=80=9D *From:* Ietf-and-github *On Behalf Of *Alvaro Retana *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:51 AM *To:* Eric Rescorla ; Eric Vyncke (evyncke) *Cc:* ietf-and-github@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper ; IESG < iesg@ietf.org>; lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) On January 29, 2019 at 4:09:09 PM, Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) wrote: While the name of the mailing list is not really important per se, I also find weird to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the charter ra= ther than =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99. Well, this stuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but I don't want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Github-type thing. Thinking out loud: Is there a way to generalize the charter to deal with Github-type things, while having the WG explicitly focus on Github initially? IOW, the deliverables would be focus on Github, with the possibility to deal with variants once the initial work is done. My 1c. Alvaro. _______________________________________________ Ietf-and-github mailing list Ietf-and-github@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --000000000000be86040581194f6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On February 4, 2019 at 2:58:43 PM, Alissa Cooper= (alissa@cooperw.in) wrote:
<= div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px">
I made a suggested addition in respon= se to this thread so that is clear what is and is not in scope:=C2=A0https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/pull/1/files
Thoughts?

That works for me.

Thanks!

Alvar= o.



Alissa

On Jan 30, 2019, at 5:28 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

=E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6possibility to dea= l with variants after the initial work is done=E2=80=9D sounds an awful lot= like a recharter.
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m inclined to think that charters don=E2=80=99t need to discus= s what will happen after a future recharter, but there is some precedent fo= r doing so.=C2=A0 In QUIC=E2=80=99s charter, for example:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CUp= on completion of [HTTP], additional protocols may be added by updating this= charter to include them.=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0Ietf-and-github <ietf= -and-github-bounces@ietf.org>= =C2=A0On Behalf Of=C2=A0Alvaro Retana
Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:= 51 AM
To:=C2=A0Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; E= ric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com>Cc:=C2= =A0ietf-and-github@ietf.org; Alissa= Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>;= =C2=A0lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
Subject:=C2= =A0Re: [Ietf-and-github] Comments related to WG Review: GitHub Integ= ration and Tooling (git)
=C2=A0
=
On January 29, 2019 at 4:09:09 PM, Eri= c Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) wrote:
While t= he name of the mailing list is not really important per se, I also find wei= rd to explicitly specify =E2=80=98Github=E2=80=99 in the charter rather tha= n =E2=80=98Git=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98Github-like=E2=80=99.
Well, this s= tuff would work for anything that's very close to Github, but I don'= ;t want us to spend a lot of time dealing with all the variant Github-type = thing.

Thinking ou= t loud: =C2=A0Is there a way to generalize the charter to deal with Github-= type things, while having the WG explicitly focus on Github initially?=C2= =A0 IOW, the deliverables would be focus on Github, with the possibility to= deal with variants once the initial work is done.

= = My 1c.

Alvaro.

=C2=A0
_______________________________________= ________
Ietf-and-github mailing list=
Ietf-and-github@ietf.orghttps://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github

--000000000000be86040581194f6a-- From nobody Thu Feb 7 06:10:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7159812872C; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 06:10:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alvaro Retana To: "The IESG" Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154954861140.23483.7896640730669443137.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 06:10:11 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 14:10:12 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-git-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please include the proposed additions from the thread on the list: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/HhQaNLRknBsYLtUqkpTelxvJqpU https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/pull/1/files From nobody Thu Feb 7 06:18:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E329126C2D; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 06:18:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:17:54 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <154954861140.23483.7896640730669443137.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:17:57 -0500 Cc: IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <252A7D9F-5938-45B1-B622-3B9631099828@cooperw.in> References: <154954861140.23483.7896640730669443137.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Alvaro Retana X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-git-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 14:18:02 -0000 > On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Alvaro Retana = wrote: >=20 > Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-git-00-01: No Objection >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Please include the proposed additions from the thread on the list: >=20 > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/HhQaNLRknBsYLtUqkpTe= lxvJqpU > https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-git-charter/pull/1/files >=20 >=20 Done. Thanks. Alissa From nobody Thu Feb 7 09:23:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2601D12F1AC; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:23:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: alissa@cooperw.in, git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154956022208.5236.15430070912186600804.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 09:23:42 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] git - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 17:23:42 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Alissa Cooper, a GEN Area Director. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: GitHub Integration and Tooling Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Alissa Cooper Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 75 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: quic httpbis tls acme saag secdispatch mls doh hrpc pearg rtcweb anima dnssd dprive tsvarea rtgarea opsarea intarea dnsop grow homenet capport dispatch stir iasa2 mtgvenue jmap Second Priority: curdle lamps oauth tokbind trans teep suit netmod lisp ippm tsvwg People who must be present: Paul E. Hoffman Martin Thomson Alissa Cooper Christopher A. Wood Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please do not schedule against any BOFs or area meetings. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Feb 7 09:26:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5577D12F1AC; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=I0w1/e65; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=AaSrm8YZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U7dzKz_Fprey; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49935130DC0; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDB32311B; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 12:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Feb 2019 12:26:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=v J4w/mwZC89wYEtnXNSbq0qbwcDxxCgRxZ6i+GhDRpw=; b=I0w1/e655IAi6CBdg pBXPISwJV7CGo9LTUoSEERRJ2WynhoR9O0DVOq8Di0KgDEYL/Q48xee55rS4tkBK i+QVEC6L0dOLYOi8DUuUp/2mJZpzFUWtAcwJVeIcgWhx29CkgZt84vswzmd2HhCt cU9I+NQLB0Md9vUQdfhbS3LfJhVa1tQlmg4uGernxLYX8f0d9VMUBew2buUs33Ze edKkS9xcbxJ4tWtOrRiGmQ4+/SOJVIrwR/k2/otTymvnxncKE8Mke3m32YGZHrZD qq9uPed+tNbWY7PFxx0RiXYaTS3ryo+fpfuRSeChFezgqPEWYuvtrnoKWik8GzsK xyVzw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=vJ4w/mwZC89wYEtnXNSbq0qbwcDxxCgRxZ6i+GhDR pw=; b=AaSrm8YZYk/05HwX93oOOunAxb7HIwqbWLko7XsXxgqC0+DA6CKe7kPeZ MCbFI+gvEUfh5gpgt2bxhFGWCjbt855d7MfNn7UeM06cgMriCTOveo9TQgfhlq9s CXgN27kd/HzuvrrSjK8MVGiBEn2HBzoqGEA/dvMtcaWzmdxMBU+mEuW5+orSkNLv iUxiPsr7cFTyRGrNoTcOWPc5QynPzkMgQA1K6TdOcibeB24sPqfieViv/90PDLxP Q8+2Yjqg6TtHc5egZTLnI0KWxvn8XtWZI0uL9M+fPUBxH6LnOQASCFKoNtnU3ffD B7Yt+XPVlNXspddwMQFI2AJa6kfbQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledrledtgddutdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomh eptehlihhsshgrucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeen ucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdejvdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprg hlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.72]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7E50DE4314; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 12:26:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <154956022208.5236.15430070912186600804.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 12:26:28 -0500 Cc: git-chairs@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1DF7255A-BABD-418E-98CC-01E014079309@cooperw.in> References: <154956022208.5236.15430070912186600804.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] git - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 17:26:29 -0000 This was just me updating my own likely conflicts. The WG has been approved for chartering and the announcement should go = out shortly. Paul Hoffman and Chris Wood have agreed to co-chair (thank = you!). If you know you want to attend this WG session at IETF 104 and = you don=E2=80=99t see important conflicts listed, please get in touch = with them. Thanks, Alissa > On Feb 7, 2019, at 12:23 PM, IETF Meeting Session Request Tool = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by = Alissa Cooper, a GEN Area Director. >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: GitHub Integration and Tooling > Area Name: General Area > Session Requester: Alissa Cooper >=20 > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours > Number of Attendees: 75 > Conflicts to Avoid:=20 > First Priority: quic httpbis tls acme saag secdispatch mls doh hrpc = pearg rtcweb anima dnssd dprive tsvarea rtgarea opsarea intarea dnsop = grow homenet capport dispatch stir iasa2 mtgvenue jmap > Second Priority: curdle lamps oauth tokbind trans teep suit netmod = lisp ippm tsvwg >=20 >=20 >=20 > People who must be present: > Paul E. Hoffman > Martin Thomson > Alissa Cooper > Christopher A. Wood >=20 > Resources Requested: >=20 > Special Requests: > Please do not schedule against any BOFs or area meetings. > --------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 8 14:07:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41752131022; Fri, 8 Feb 2019 14:07:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <154966364726.31128.15268659046534805678.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 14:07:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] WG Action: Formed GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 22:07:27 -0000 A new IETF WG has been formed in the General Area. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. GitHub Integration and Tooling (git) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Proposed WG Chairs: Christopher Wood Paul Hoffman Assigned Area Director: Alissa Cooper General Area Directors: Alissa Cooper Mailing list: Address: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-and-github/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/git/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-git/ Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primarily GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; informing participants about IETF policies; and others. The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the practices. The documents produced by this group may apply to services similar to GitHub. However, documenting generalized policies that are designed to apply to multiple services or policies specific to services besides GitHub are out of scope for this working group. Pursuing such work requires a re-charter. The documents produced by this group will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9). They will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion. The working group may also discuss tooling requirements in support of GitHub use. Decisions about implementing specific tooling needs will be undertaken by the IETF Tools Team in consultation with working group participants and other interested contributors. Milestones: Aug 2019 - Work practice description and policy document(s) sent to IESG for publication as BCP From nobody Wed Feb 13 09:09:22 2019 Return-Path: <01000168e7d584a2-a6b6111f-4fb6-49c1-bc6b-2638ad5d6076-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C5812DDA3 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dcqcOOHERsZ0 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 575ED1289FA for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:09:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1550077756; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Cc:To:Feedback-ID; bh=01QJBW1YfoT6qCGbIWit+rFFBZ2KqvqR2RRx+vVOMhQ=; b=Ntm6et2M71p42mV3wkpY8dZ7YuVQ0DtNhN+QD2Xz54F+CIIuT8oqbuXZlS6SEiip iEJUhJQ4/PiN5mZ0FzOa5LIvMbQnPmrVhojp7JRUE5twsocfx++U06oyxIqzKHsUHLM R0ebvlBpaq+9dLC9fvZK2GVmV0+8DsswiIjSE4tI= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Message-ID: <01000168e7d584a2-a6b6111f-4fb6-49c1-bc6b-2638ad5d6076-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:09:16 +0000 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Alissa Cooper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.13-54.240.8.83 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] git - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:09:20 -0000 > This was just me updating my own likely conflicts. > > The WG has been approved for chartering and the announcement should go = out shortly. Paul Hoffman > and Chris Wood have agreed to co-chair (thank you!). If you know you = want to attend this WG session > at IETF 104 and you don=E2=80=99t see important conflicts listed, = please get in touch with them. > Thanks, Alissa=20 Sorry for the late response, but I'd like to attend/present at this = meeting. I'm working on tooling for parts of this (will send out a link in a little bit). My WG conflicts are = NETCONF and netmod but, worse, I leave Prague Thursday morning. Thanks, Kent From nobody Wed Feb 13 19:26:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DB6130F09; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:26:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <155011480132.9647.2839585667615682928@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:26:41 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 03:26:41 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG of the IETF. Title : GitHub Configuration for IETF Working Groups Authors : Alissa Cooper Paul Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2019-02-13 Abstract: The use of GitHub in IETF working group processes is increasing. This document describes possible uses and conventions for working groups which are considering starting to use GitHub. It does not mandate any processes, and does not intend to change the processes used by current working groups. Discussion of this document takes place on the ietf-and-github mailing list (ietf-and-github@ietf.org), which is archived at . The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Feb 13 19:45:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EAF130F14; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:45:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=evequefou.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aS0ChpkjtgB8; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM04-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr680099.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.68.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D8A6130F09; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: evequefou.be X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f38689fb-773d-47d2-5a8e-08d6922ec9fa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2019 03:44:57.2160 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 41eaf50b-882d-47eb-8c4c-0b5b76a9da8f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR22MB0541 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 03:45:09 -0000 Not that I object to the specific draft at all, but I must admit I'm surpri= sed to see that a draft can be adopted by a working group that has had only= one message to the mailing list since the working group was formed.... Di= d I miss the call for adoption somewhere? (Also, this draft presumably replaces draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configura= tion, but that link wasn't made in Datatracker. One of the things the I-D = Template's auto-submission can't do yet.) -----Original Message----- From: Ietf-and-github On Behalf Of inter= net-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 7:27 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configurati= on-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG of the I= ETF. Title : GitHub Configuration for IETF Working Groups Authors : Alissa Cooper Paul Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2019-02-13 Abstract: The use of GitHub in IETF working group processes is increasing. This document describes possible uses and conventions for working groups which are considering starting to use GitHub. It does not mandate any processes, and does not intend to change the processes used by current working groups. Discussion of this document takes place on the ietf-and-github mailing list (ietf-and-github@ietf.org), which is archived at . The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuratio= n-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ Ietf-and-github mailing list Ietf-and-github@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Wed Feb 13 20:08:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85C8130F55 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:08:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=AnBbZ9Zr; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=aR7Rvr7M Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s7x83h5jOfsy for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA464130F44 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D803B2432B for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 23:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 23:08:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:subject:date:references:in-reply-to; s=fm1; bh=hqe dsypZhy+mNi+/reHUGoQfEm+wwHjKJCXHlbYQOc0=; b=AnBbZ9ZrLvGOAvMq42o m/kHAeh5wgCLPlMz6S5UQA3X7O1Z3r5Ss8LPLzwHd9iqvS+u9y6K7LLS6Ubne1YV Z95bzgUJqibkEqsV7+xVJY5qHczA5sdJEdbmtmnQvspVDJzIU/O28D5gJ274N4qh Q+8FFEfsAUqtlZxaVCn8B86inxw9RhNCUOloZPnHgumFW7YQ4DpiGxVyCzeND3KS 1ztbg5NeuzTafI3ejLJL6zSDfV6E8lnFDL43m9Gj6fQBcdAuz78SAkH/5fbDG8Eg qdNJ4ibBtBn+mLZr764wkPTDKhrhuzYJBqIPEYSgYjljtPs4MwxS4p+oAbgEc/JO ILg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=hqedsypZhy+mNi+/reHUGoQfEm+wwHjKJCXHlbYQO c0=; b=aR7Rvr7MIiQKJfiDpv3j/GoNAO0s0H5qsg1IOQjslPJiHrRr9fgbDKVNN 2ywKNR2L1e6404wH3FQNgEghmYogL4MNCSrZOluVKtAMcnLZaysYD/SU5fczBFUN JD0JhGqJDmVbKxHjfOjFh/bHFG12BbEmjXJImOtx/Y56g+yX66hpHPWU6l8CjmXP xw4gkHs3dSSZ7ldIeY81g4WubHOT3hf8CGJUnnl1uhWzbmBi75DZlS1sYpY+DAH/ bEVuBaEPs9eiwTaNLdQkBvXAGCYWfPV4SnVkQxn0Uru5nVSMZbpSGq6f+QY1RoS/ f5oK5NjfDVlPROhakpZkorh+1eqUw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledruddtgedgieeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurhepkffhvfgggfgtoffuffhfjgesthejredtredtjeenucfhrhhomh epofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheq necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmh htsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 21ECF9E54B; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 23:08:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1550117287.927532.1657683848.1AA2BA66@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Martin Thomson To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-e97eb308 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:08:07 +1100 References: <155011480132.9647.2839585667615682928@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 04:08:11 -0000 Let me second Mike in being surprised. On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, at 14:44, Mike Bishop wrote: > Not that I object to the specific draft at all, but I must admit I'm > surprised to see that a draft can be adopted by a working group that has > had only one message to the mailing list since the working group was > formed.... Did I miss the call for adoption somewhere? > > (Also, this draft presumably replaces draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg- > configuration, but that link wasn't made in Datatracker. One of the > things the I-D Template's auto-submission can't do yet.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ietf-and-github On Behalf Of > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 7:27 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org > Subject: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg- > configuration-00.txt > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG of the IETF. > > Title : GitHub Configuration for IETF Working Groups > Authors : Alissa Cooper > Paul Hoffman > Filename : draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2019-02-13 > > Abstract: > The use of GitHub in IETF working group processes is increasing. > This document describes possible uses and conventions for working > groups which are considering starting to use GitHub. It does not > mandate any processes, and does not intend to change the processes > used by current working groups. > > Discussion of this document takes place on the ietf-and-github > mailing list (ietf-and-github@ietf.org), which is archived at > github>. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Wed Feb 13 22:54:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E06130F30 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:54:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WKzI0RQur-gv for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from emh04.mail.saunalahti.fi (emh04.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.5.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB42E130FFB for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from eggert.org (unknown [62.248.255.8]) by emh04.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D3C30071; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:54:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from slate.eggert.org (pf.eggert.org [172.16.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E853E602B72; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:54:31 +0200 (EET) From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_196E8DC3-C88E-475C-8143-55F4A29CBD56"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:54:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1550117287.927532.1657683848.1AA2BA66@webmail.messagingengine.com> Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: <155011480132.9647.2839585667615682928@ietfa.amsl.com> <1550117287.927532.1657683848.1AA2BA66@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-MailScanner-ID: E853E602B72.A121A X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:54:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_196E8DC3-C88E-475C-8143-55F4A29CBD56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2019-2-14, at 6:08, Martin Thomson wrote: > Let me second Mike in being surprised. Ditto. The optics are problematic, especially since a WG chair is a = co-author. Lars --Apple-Mail=_196E8DC3-C88E-475C-8143-55F4A29CBD56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAlxlEKcACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfSXg//TjDcms7hlq/bvwNPzd7Ve8+YOAa8DelKyTvpwJFrAhTeiCbcpTEoXNLN vSOGI9oCO6m3LVbKjWW8BEzqxdala0zhmjwH6T4BXDjJiD5dHLDA1km27Lf+EQYE YdQm/HMCOg1r/i/hcBdRH18592ZhtTFGKUPd4M9geYFttai7dxH5Eyv44MDAzPJI i9Kjca68RZCVWvGJrEX9ODZodDCNWdwihjxoSKuA+HyLEniErF5muIXL0um5+eEP jKrT7hqSznghpRagJfVVfzZlTsJJgVK/gGMl3iyDNMNVDqToZnqibBMLjYgDPXgD WD69uAu0AwZHpbYWMdQITPY8fLbcnEj09Oz1H2zrSJel8+vz2vh5hiKAby1xLdc9 bEDOn218QjEsTOqsaz8gVkLg5fWUBu0Li/DBpnO9lU92p2bKkm9H7n523B5UG/1c Xg+7p+bm81tNvF1gpk2cP1Poq9T4BqcN4Ydq3M1e3dYow6Y3DeIz/Buj1ZMOuWvs USCKT/WD4pV9sbPQUpm/sGb5gXUiG1BKL5d5Pz4iHyUCDnwfLMnHsrAjzt1GjesD OGm3pX/FZ1l42b8m79SjuhlBFYp2GiY+zFFVO/ualIu9JWd+4pAUKBBeKSy2k26r jkxfNt+e7w3IXft9VJDYTi9V21Gyp4/5lBOw4n3W+o0YYFRlbVQ= =BKct -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_196E8DC3-C88E-475C-8143-55F4A29CBD56-- From nobody Thu Feb 14 07:15:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA3313105F for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:15:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4z8E4p323nTa for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (out.west.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32AF1128CE4 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:15:22 -0800 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:15:22 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ext] [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUxBexrjvJhmRVrUaVEbaEm0hZVaXf7iCA Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:15:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155011480132.9647.2839585667615682928@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:15:31 -0000 On Feb 13, 2019, at 7:44 PM, Mike Bishop wrote: > Not that I object to the specific draft at all, but I must admit I'm surp= rised to see that a draft can be adopted by a working group that has had on= ly one message to the mailing list since the working group was formed.... = Did I miss the call for adoption somewhere? It was part of the charter discussion. The previous draft, draft-cooper-wug= h-github-wg-configuration, is explicitly listed in the charter as a milesto= ne. This -00 is identical to that draft, except with the filename changed. > (Also, this draft presumably replaces draft-cooper-wugh-github-wg-configu= ration, but that link wasn't made in Datatracker. One of the things the I-= D Template's auto-submission can't do yet.) That can be done today. On Feb 13, 2019, at 8:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Let me second Mike in being surprised. Your draft, draft-thomson-github-bcp, is also listed in the charter as a mi= lestone. On Feb 13, 2019, at 10:54 PM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Ditto. The optics are problematic, especially since a WG chair is a co-au= thor. >=20 We two co-chairs discussed this yesterday afternoon before submitting the d= raft to fulfill the charter. Because I will be an active co-author on one o= f the two chartered drafts, I will be mostly ceremonial as co-chair. I will= certainly not be making any consensus calls. If I fail to edit the documen= t in a way consistent with the WG's desire, my co-chair is encouraged to fi= re me as document co-author. (I wish more WG chairs would do this instead o= f dragging out WG conflicts, but that's a different topic.) --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Feb 14 09:22:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9425130E2F for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:22:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WJBIFWzDTiKp for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc35.google.com (mail-yw1-xc35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E0A1131088 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc35.google.com with SMTP id c67so2614829ywa.7 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:21:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8gdVPcBM33oMXROWiKCpB9+lKRe7DmKhIoC2QWRZTVQ=; b=QlhCT0M0JJ4DCRzrL4uXt8Q8jJRuJOAoVSOY72VqTdHaocUnEnyUME6g0lc9CKo2mS 0zdlkvfEb4svAhHeR8ohAinmJSpDCvuxJDhks2uE/nUWqEHPrn5ep/5jiQCPeeeiq+MO GlxMrRpJNGukCFeLU9DcmGUc94jLy3DQl6YO/EsvZ2BG8kQPl7nXf7SXm3sm8L8ZWfad MlB1OB31cQ1EerAUVsrplWIxaSPzitoT1Ye1c1HjRysyh8RLR5elCJUEA0B9eh/bmMKZ 6mB2rQKxRZUEZBf8XVOzLK1N3XWeks3rNvIzhsW5GTSQr4pBTuFrw5RbUwBYmcXxS7N0 CUZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8gdVPcBM33oMXROWiKCpB9+lKRe7DmKhIoC2QWRZTVQ=; b=oDU0c45Kvp/PQQ9B2cAn5LL6v4GQUyAUO4nYxcHeIflOnbeEcRZCcc8Gsbc+1fAP84 +Lc8pVmYs1hIY4y4RhjSbrvr4Bfyhyf65lJ6y+5BOrxeZxOd3Y8zRdlzuEwHZjPSx8Wv FPXOjoYdoDunW1iFjb+FNQPwht/GPf7ebYodZudWEsH1zIjXBOxHsXWh/6B3mX8kcTjw HC7qZD5G8TPBbm7e0Cfcr3Korp50PBJ+gAW4RN3Fqjlqs52iCBjLfmOx6IPy0xASEMsd TRc0gQXbE6J4fB+vHNlNTdPuC7rhLMRRhgVa/2WA+tW/Nmgfzhg2xB6eQp+adU8rTP61 IGLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaC0vk8ippa5uXM0GTdTe76BgAiL37p2TEDhstw0I7kH3GEhv+I PmRrUBCMWQ8EPKL1LgRtx7x1sEbqJplsjtffhBsCD60B X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaboDONgnulcgdRFlJEljWmGQvYEPrJ54dTNZBIoUzNwUujvhnMZZ1aJJE3hERCHFlYbeBkVTHZBb8Wd4E/7bM= X-Received: by 2002:a81:83c1:: with SMTP id t184mr4227527ywf.350.1550164878609; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:21:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Christopher Wood Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:21:04 -0800 Message-ID: To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Adoption call for draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration* X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:22:11 -0000 Hi folks, To get things started in preparation for Prague, we're starting an adoption call for draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration*. If you would like this draft to become a WG document and are willing to review it through the process, please let the list know by 2359UTC 20180228. If you are opposed to this being a WG document, please say so (and say why). Thanks, Chris * Despite the name, this draft is not yet adopted. From nobody Thu Feb 14 10:11:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6535012867A for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0dEAYwRZveY4 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 063F912426A for ; 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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 18:11:33 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x1EI2h8f001246; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:11:32 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.25.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2qhu32rsb8-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:11:32 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.101) by ustx2ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.107) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:11:31 -0800 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:11:31 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Christopher Wood , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Adoption call for draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration* Thread-Index: AQHUxInWtWFAsIR020Cg3Vn85ciSBaXfqRoA Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 18:11:30 +0000 Message-ID: <0F240492-9F57-4845-B46F-9EAF9ACF7800@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.16.0.190211 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.32.122] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:04:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0F240492-9F57-4845-B46F-9EAF9ACF7800@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <0F240492-9F57-4845-B46F-9EAF9ACF7800@akamai.com> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:04:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Christopher Wood , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cd97fb0581df5414" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Adoption call for draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration* X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:04:48 -0000 --000000000000cd97fb0581df5414 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" support adoption and can review On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 1:11 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > I support this adoption (although I was surprised to see it) and will > contribute. > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > -- Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ --000000000000cd97fb0581df5414 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
support adoption and can review

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at= 1:11 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.co= m> wrote:
I support this adoption (although I was surprised to see it) and will cont= ribute.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github


--
Joseph Lorenzo = Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401= K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-= key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 = A871

Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom i= s April 10, 2019, at The
Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/
--000000000000cd97fb0581df5414-- From nobody Thu Feb 14 11:07:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DE913109A for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:06:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7dY_U5XRupj for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDE67131096 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id s5-v6so6187927ljd.12 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:06:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=27qxq+lE5+IyGvpPcUr8mrA9OHW3YW7T0fwrSE7Xqio=; b=IOlKHDREiWq78SX2Qkv0/Rd6gpS/sV6aYoIj01OhR6F+U5oxtIU6oT50gVj88Kk8uS 6JQVR/IswHiqxSciO8nXwWMDEtSBm2r0ag9AHF3EkhYw/tmEvSeRcgd065pnGcuvtbpO daxYw2e0IdIDN2yMlTkFzhj9g97EGyIOc6xqwIBkCdgaYePi6y4mUitPwhcoLFG3yWXy BLEWC5L9jPM5/QOWnytZfERlcyyDqOWOPYXDtpD9Am8ncbcU8/np18cQf3Z30gQ/Kxl/ xSvr3fUUBr6AsZERFKOlZO8zt6lRIMULbURX+O2wKOWcDb2uw/nxhb/lkKG50qJyw8PR CvSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=27qxq+lE5+IyGvpPcUr8mrA9OHW3YW7T0fwrSE7Xqio=; b=IXPHjW6hp7eu4FcJ1yhO4S5WRyFH3qY0EfuQhXL15ChX8ZHjj+NNZyN0KXXsAdoQ5q t1cOh8nq0TN7joc64na0I49TN8ntvL2QOz1NtUlQDHcZBV0IboLH8zu84czZ5gUIqRBJ ZjYJUy034PJvAOmjmcyU7xEbbm/E0P/tzhpA1uC89aRHsSsviRQL9bEcrck4zbkIti3y bEaBtuY3MYYKP35iNmvFa+Y4m/UuOTWsGxc9J4dVJrumezJgPlpKhVBqCSOH88s7wbL6 reRMlzhF7Q3PWyPvVVv094XNdR02dQtb16KDaKNlCl+kpi1ogdtgQoPHNLo09nnJkLlq cyiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubCLlZCIxN0dBOwEHbPWA7mRpks4CDZ0wPv2QHV7bjfTWSumDDt kthYHR+ede+3j78CmpzwbjlFnvkBY/M8q4Ds7axB+w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbCd8rZoQYbcmLhJnQGG25j7T86aM78j9FBzn4cl1EII78J8oVUjLteI7ZG071NMasEnKF7Kc1nz7y3q7nPPxU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4d7:: with SMTP id a84mr976479ljf.86.1550171214842; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:06:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0F240492-9F57-4845-B46F-9EAF9ACF7800@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:06:17 -0800 Message-ID: To: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Christopher Wood , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a2b010581df5c03" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Adoption call for draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration* X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:07:00 -0000 --0000000000009a2b010581df5c03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Me as well On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:04 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: > support adoption and can review > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 1:11 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > >> I support this adoption (although I was surprised to see it) and will >> contribute. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >> > > > -- > Joseph Lorenzo Hall > Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org > ] > 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 > e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key > Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 > > Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The > Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --0000000000009a2b010581df5c03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me as well

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:04 AM Joseph= Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org> wrote:=
support adoption and can review

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 1:11 PM Salz, = Rich <rsalz@akamai= .com> wrote:
I support this adoption (although I was surprised to see it) and will c= ontribute.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github


--
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democra= cy & Technology [http= s://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e= : joe@cdt.org, p: 202.= 407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B1= 0 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

Don't mis= s out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
Anthem. Please join= us: https://c= dt.org/annual-dinner/
_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--0000000000009a2b010581df5c03-- From nobody Thu Feb 14 14:29:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB221311FC for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=LHe83xVv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=KF/QnQEM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40slANFQQJvi for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFA821311F4 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD06220D4 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:29:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to:subject :content-type; s=fm1; bh=b0hXEx0c5u4UcoftQivPBEOMx10hem2iCeIgMaT k6HM=; b=LHe83xVvWppWAj2PwLP7fjJws5xpeDMfWYIaD/WqPXcqG+ICcP30MRV c7wE5A7UEoRLq8hiMp4vcw6Ah/3rGR5sUCpD31ByfmlKrXdry8br41I3Khpx2KWT MgrK4FYaIe5WBrAppBvnE8zg2CRK+9r+S+gkhsDS4Y6UPRABqKN6jJK8sWIRkU41 S5EzFMpcCQKT2VNt2EKTBa69xA6GW+wkJtNFUO2VuRJNONIe4rtEHDJz3CdQoUnF 7AzQ8gKr+z/fSXNjji2TN2mKB0nKAWTKUbLKxc2OMmoxPudybBz21zktxOxIqzsI iBLZwFqj3DyAGKs2zL4O6XIFbhmaXtA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=b0hXEx0c5u4UcoftQ ivPBEOMx10hem2iCeIgMaTk6HM=; b=KF/QnQEMAx6WfviZI3izWO5+s/5fhjPq3 plpl8tlfJoNrX1UgRMqdOAZfKn+eKJcEvrmc5OWe41ya3dctdxu+ZO9u7xs0AI0+ e3mErmiomrgBdldx8PBcpLBJ71jVAk/P2d+rgwIJVZ50lw/tULazMXwhDyh8gd7L RfnlK75Dw4fwQDyBUwNbBLDTZW4Dbw1iyomCVU/UoOYXi3ovrTjMEqAoftr9E1vA ftSAyeMW+B1WDGleIYF/kJNnjDtontSElCPiyJFohnR/4kAWmUYh3irmKLk9cEc9 WbKr6gxBvPU80nsCZdKokjTjIKZ2BCeSIm+JQqyCGP4MOrZSc93oQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledruddthedgudeivdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfhuthenuceurghilhhouhhtmecu fedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreerjeenucfhrhhomh epfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgv theqnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg htnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 602487C1EB; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:29:31 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-832-gba113d7-fmstable-20190201v1 X-Me-Personality: 92534000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <155011480132.9647.2839585667615682928@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:29:31 -0500 From: "Martin Thomson" To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] =?utf-8?q?=5BExt=5D_I-D_Action=3A_draft-ietf-g?= =?utf-8?q?it-github-wg-configuration-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:29:34 -0000 > On Feb 13, 2019, at 8:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > > Let me second Mike in being surprised. > > Your draft, draft-thomson-github-bcp, is also listed in the charter as > a milestone. Yes, it is, however, customary to confirm the adoption call. It avoids these little surprises and gives people a chance to consider the document again in the new context. From nobody Thu Feb 14 17:11:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34308131031 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:11:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=XCBI4iBX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=T/FYK2UH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbDTTheetx9G for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 671AD130EA1 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD2122B1E for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:11:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=1rsM0 HzBPWyFjrfUvzgc3XkPTMrthVv5pWtuzxnC8u0=; b=XCBI4iBX8kO5MoX5o9SNl FzlS3j90Gir6Ic/0D3rowtvc+6jL62QUA11qCBZm6RmUU1fzSL45S+1rusAd5OtE 5Ck8GoSbnraReztr9ZcfhmwTUmfP55flnUDyywclo+U7t2zqmjwSEs3PscNxyY6p U/c0I0hAWo/IEWPI/+vgHYvmwwQRXBS0nRjb+XarTRC90S1aKx/l6LRFE/2bduY8 xjTCkJ4QfQHPiLExGjPkYACx4zpaBSwDp+AKYHKSudHgdHz1BTflamkMV2W5R9Cx QNAIvETp2o8IavOhS9D2D2EEZY21TePD2moJsWF6Db5L4SBXGQbkfWADsdQYJh89 Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id:subject :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm2; bh=1rsM0HzBPWyFjrfUvzgc3XkPTMrthVv5pWtuzxnC8u0=; b=T/FYK2UH UPmaS2P2RkbEiqpyUeW9xw2nzXoQ502ElShF/L7U0szlq27py0q3CYATPGnrGpVb s4rNUSOkFeKqKHJI2p2X1/dYUeBLzx2OgD27FIsFz2qx2pSbHwamf5ARPSz4NvBf rf9PqOQWqCn8Xfu2TvdFbUjYTsVhsYqo0CHKGEw7PPL92eYXzXddUlzoaS8VKdoK IKz/gwt56byIWnlW9WNV0q+PZ5RQTbipOaLvCTx52gwqf56SnN9GjeZjknUB9Cj4 M3vaEaLVW6JZjCkf0ZvnvaAnIhwMNcc5RlRYdvpMxo5ZXOFLhkwOE9P36KQNJ/R4 iHAwd/XFmbZRlw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledruddtiedgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfkfffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfof grrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeen ucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmth eslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7AD647C1B7; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:11:26 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-832-gba113d7-fmstable-20190201v1 X-Me-Personality: 92534000 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:11:26 -0500 From: "Martin Thomson" To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Updated "BCP" X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 01:11:36 -0000 As I mentioned when we BoFfed this thing, it was odd to be talking about a document that was so long expired. The latest round of oddness prompted me to correct that. It has a new name: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thomson-git-using-github/ The scope remains the same. From nobody Thu Feb 14 19:06:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B4C130E91 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:06:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6yfGhg7s4me for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87F01130E7D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id y1so4079693pgk.11 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:06:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:references:from:organization:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BADNhlVZiBN4MdUdxikKyaH+c+Y0485vXNENWiOY6Wg=; b=blOQ1llHwxxfMZyoIP+r0d5G+PFDNN3lWnQW6WSWu2xp12yD56QtBndlUJXIWim4p6 BpVVVpMiDCHfF4CT+MPeyM/jj1MUecyaqQh2Ir06ZgYoQLCM9LzPIEpU1Utvsdiyz2u+ YXlaWSDQQ9q2GjrLrvwa9tqviSoViXvOCOuPtjzVP9iU9ZFaYoVsYlSDf1qVjCKsUXAi tehsCrVrrPWapova+s7EVGIiPHW6ntH8oR3wEdX6bk/X9jJEnS9b8ctTkT33dzKMepVb ZZMpW8s6gr/g/AV95+s80q1/Us4IiJCuUJXGo78iCj6TXSlKNxdtcwrP68Itsr1cZivZ qSJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:from:organization:to :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BADNhlVZiBN4MdUdxikKyaH+c+Y0485vXNENWiOY6Wg=; b=D+scJOyoOUcg2n8bCcRKO59BaIxK9F1CbizLo6ZCHLBNNu1zStjYyCH4qCEbF3rrcj x17uSUNDHhqrAyjUCLICDys5OUJUHZMS23UBGjKhNoxuHIZpRd/5C8E+YAaEqfpn15Be P/6bg+pmFyiqEIQBl0laTEAXAgaCIQSvK96DFPW10K5LvOgHKzKYt1ktxpHZ1mWBy7iB luRnCHlEeRAkM9gLOAfGEZb7H4RmtFtpaTytIOVWVTMva8h8Ahd02m4eCaXMeLaiItwH Qum07/eql7fdYKc9llKbnKJJ2o45zSKUm9l3l7oyRJ0kVXAy/e1kht7KR2n45YKqoO2G CdpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuagUwhskvBHhsepYvvVoHFHVNXp8FqCkOxHUMkN4/pZwI4mQilh Iju68V7fIl+KKczTBtraIN3PG6My X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Iaf1RQDz+vmVn3VHDrP4qTuRgeWK2hHvTEiP/LerrS2/41pfs8sHqVIv8PQem8cgh3j1Ot+vA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:db02:: with SMTP id e2mr3240310pgg.419.1550199967341; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.88.27] ([103.29.31.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e123sm4943095pgc.14.2019.02.14.19.06.05 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:06:06 -0800 (PST) References: <155019191697.26675.1011801955948042208@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <9dcd9ff4-e52a-cd63-abd0-631c40d5e7fd@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 16:06:01 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <155019191697.26675.1011801955948042208@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-thomson-git-using-github-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:06:10 -0000 Hi, Somewhere, and probably in this draft, it seems to me that we need a more detailed discussion of how using github relates to the IETF standards process as described in RFC2026 and RFC2418. I hope we agree that it's only a tool, but we need to explain better how it fits in. One specific comment for now. In section 6 "Assessing Consensus" it says: A working group chair SHOULD consult the working group mailing list for any issue that is potentially contentious. Surely that should be a MUST? It's a very basic principle that consensus on the mailing list is all that really counts. Another possible issue is that unfortunately we've had to bring in rules on how to handle disruptive behaviour on mailing lists. I assume the same thing could happen in a github issue tracker (and the fact that it hasn't happened yet doesn't prove that it won't happen in future). Maybe we can simply say that the existing measures that can be applied to mailing list participation may be extended to issue trackers. And of course github usage falls within the scope of both the anti-harassment and Ombudsperson BCPs. Regards Brian From nobody Thu Feb 14 19:25:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE6F130E92 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:25:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H6uraDWMXVxW for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29587130E7D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id d125so3515631ith.1 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:25:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=nElv61c5ODmz0DTgKE1uIig11HjCe186a2hr+qbtYMI=; b=on2YdJO4M9kFl04cdr4eLRaLtT79QW0+pgnJG9qX39dWyafsO9pR60LpVni784KvK6 v4wOWJpCbfYvvEmgsEnqSElf7Bw5F6yHTYRSdeOK6xW5y5ylsucOAPH2nlxZbdCzh0vG 0mEbjjKp9eQ5sHnJVv24FiRz8sjsq2BUg6GhjMsqhcKragGLqZF4rHmoqXjivTRssYLG +QWHMmZz6tZCPDfuC+oYEZ8hiN3ZgVBrbIZLEBkpeaXvqthqzJQS7lHc9V3s8oho65u1 xKEtCvxofD4uqJ1j+eIkilfjKrC6D/fS0Xuv6VbBggtGM08PZAkpZpLOIlArSYhcJzW7 aqpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=nElv61c5ODmz0DTgKE1uIig11HjCe186a2hr+qbtYMI=; b=Rnv65hHHC6sz5oxM9fe01z7udp7/P2hjDYidfjmJoYgUPBwHukqhQyHBMyV+4A3dqi BekuPU4Suabfl97mg3iPgAaV81PViMnrtRzLOehagcrixq2Sv3/GHkrYOaxalb4AInhe boIJ4k6P3bgemJONMrd/xNbzs8b4oy+C9QjIrTpfNx2eQpP7Pq3ypNQlXAfblUtFcLkW NlOvQ4SeXsbE14QyXZdabvg0ie13DB/C3ZMG52N6gcEcJvpOdcGMq90YWyZp5kMwPC5/ ko+l5mBXN+BpbkWz7WJtPXkI6sqT0AbJaNblSvQgnrAz1gVXuGGKZh8Iu8fkz2WscPOu JJeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuazlrMKU9slAlAcfqRjnRqx7xXNrth8KdBuhZwP2Ewf4eG3ER// t9zRRvNCO06L6mTDAJNL9n0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbHnP5la6kMZKPs5MVdsl1Clf9CNa6WQS1k2b/73lBXisTK+ZcDCLlI9VjugY8y6IyISccOLw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8607:: with SMTP id f7mr4863621iol.241.1550201124297; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:acf0:7d14:7b2d:cd9a? ([2605:a601:a028:986:acf0:7d14:7b2d:cd9a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k9sm957673iob.2.2019.02.14.19.25.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:25:23 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <8E0664CE-EF2E-4B5C-A9F1-15B8D4CFE7CF@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DF6EE7A2-01FC-45F7-858B-342B1B74E598" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:25:19 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9dcd9ff4-e52a-cd63-abd0-631c40d5e7fd@gmail.com> Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <155019191697.26675.1011801955948042208@ietfa.amsl.com> <9dcd9ff4-e52a-cd63-abd0-631c40d5e7fd@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-thomson-git-using-github-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:25:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DF6EE7A2-01FC-45F7-858B-342B1B74E598 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 14, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Somewhere, and probably in this draft, it seems to me that we need a = more > detailed discussion of how using github relates to the IETF standards > process as described in RFC2026 and RFC2418. I hope we agree that it's > only a tool, but we need to explain better how it fits in. >=20 > One specific comment for now. In section 6 "Assessing Consensus" it = says: >=20 > A working group chair SHOULD consult the working group mailing list > for any issue that is potentially contentious. >=20 > Surely that should be a MUST? It's a very basic principle that = consensus > on the mailing list is all that really counts. >=20 > Another possible issue is that unfortunately we've had to bring in = rules > on how to handle disruptive behaviour on mailing lists. I assume the = same > thing could happen in a github issue tracker (and the fact that it = hasn't > happened yet doesn't prove that it won't happen in future). Maybe we = can > simply say that the existing measures that can be applied to mailing = list > participation may be extended to issue trackers. And of course github = usage > falls within the scope of both the anti-harassment and Ombudsperson = BCPs. >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_DF6EE7A2-01FC-45F7-858B-342B1B74E598 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I = agree.


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 14, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
Somewhere, and probably in this draft, it = seems to me that we need a more
detailed discussion of how = using github relates to the IETF standards
process as = described in RFC2026 and RFC2418. I hope we agree that it's
only a tool, but we need to explain better how it fits in.

One specific comment for now. In section 6 = "Assessing Consensus" it says:

=   A working group chair SHOULD consult the working group = mailing list
  for any issue that is = potentially contentious.

Surely that should = be a MUST? It's a very basic principle that consensus
on = the mailing list is all that really counts.

Another possible issue is that unfortunately we've had to = bring in rules
on how to handle disruptive behaviour on = mailing lists. I assume the same
thing could happen in a = github issue tracker (and the fact that it hasn't
happened = yet doesn't prove that it won't happen in future). Maybe we can
simply say that the existing measures that can be applied to = mailing list
participation may be extended to issue = trackers. And of course github usage
falls within the = scope of both the anti-harassment and Ombudsperson BCPs.
Regards
 Brian

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= --Apple-Mail=_DF6EE7A2-01FC-45F7-858B-342B1B74E598-- From nobody Thu Feb 14 19:32:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2F6130EB8 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:32:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=QazhIKPL; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=rUZ53iL4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJgxfPetkSiG for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DA8C130E7D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D4C21F85 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:32:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to:subject :content-type; s=fm1; bh=Q0vmDwRVVwHYJ7PtlFmYMj0xyfWAsKJtOl2Vw61 2RUY=; b=QazhIKPL/QpMh2iY2sUy/bj7BPOlTXwZkisvx+gL2hNT+eDymnEvyc9 JmhfG1PVLW1wMv6gSIATd5oVGeSJwTemOroIC8VDDyPgb1fR5+aQO1yNzDOF6we2 LAMZrBD8LV/rePU2OgiF0X+nviJZoyjc6kEG2oYjaAAtgi93i/prBAwEoSeuyZF8 8fPVXUe4UlOKAPyeHLBRu0fW0LhRi3r0rYnxmIjJqX22lq7f+zPPw4PmZi0Zw401 rWa/0TD6gLyjjw6V6KEbw6GJeTMV6wX3iF4SHr6NmYF/hRwUX9CfISgMGwMCsDRT LYQ0srp85oBoR5Fzf9eBxrZV+X2jk6g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Q0vmDwRVVwHYJ7Ptl FmYMj0xyfWAsKJtOl2Vw612RUY=; b=rUZ53iL4FGgCtyoKOGusj3X41yfk9Fn9n jxwT1/3lQ58SoUrs43N2V4hTfutAdLLQTZPsA/KAblVifvelYuuHlCd9H2Xnox/a XxyYsmca1Oa8slLmzLNdMFfuHwCuTIqoJAxTM8SVOQflgcuORRzIiqxEhHttrtLl iefveHKxWauxi9gCMIpsnnN+ZonNKrl6Lte9+yEQn2pu9I6GE6CbSE6sEx7k3Y1V 8cM294js/MSFIguiTuLzeSqB6cQeuYyaE0fmVzGU/fkG88TkuHk2/L10bMQBuFcw 6rw2SFlJMnXHRaeAyNFQqtCj80nMVXPdotLDxiVrICNCKNAx1cMZA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledruddtiedgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpe dfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght qeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhroh hmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A3D6C7C1EB; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:32:02 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-832-gba113d7-fmstable-20190201v1 X-Me-Personality: 92534000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9dcd9ff4-e52a-cd63-abd0-631c40d5e7fd@gmail.com> References: <155019191697.26675.1011801955948042208@ietfa.amsl.com> <9dcd9ff4-e52a-cd63-abd0-631c40d5e7fd@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:32:04 -0500 From: "Martin Thomson" To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] =?utf-8?q?I-D_Action=3A_draft-thomson-git-usin?= =?utf-8?q?g-github-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:32:06 -0000 Thanks Brian, On Fri, Feb 15, 2019, at 14:06, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Somewhere, and probably in this draft, it seems to me that we need a more > detailed discussion of how using github relates to the IETF standards > process as described in RFC2026 and RFC2418. I hope we agree that it's > only a tool, but we need to explain better how it fits in. Agreed. I haven't done the analysis here, but can see how that's appropriate. https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-using-github/issues/6 > One specific comment for now. In section 6 "Assessing Consensus" it says: > > A working group chair SHOULD consult the working group mailing list > for any issue that is potentially contentious. > > Surely that should be a MUST? It's a very basic principle that consensus > on the mailing list is all that really counts. Yes. I don't know how that ended up as a SHOULD now that you point it out. I made it MUST. https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-using-github/commit/80ad5a22a26de688fc9a5d9f72a58d013721b7a8 > Another possible issue is that unfortunately we've had to bring in rules > on how to handle disruptive behaviour on mailing lists. I assume the same > thing could happen in a github issue tracker (and the fact that it hasn't > happened yet doesn't prove that it won't happen in future). Unfortunately, that's not the case. That you have not seen this in action is because it was handled quietly, but there is at least one case I'm aware of. I believe that the chairs and AD followed the same process as we might for blocking access to a mailing list, more or less. (I'm fuzzy on the details, I had already muted the individual in question on the basis of other interactions.) The tools here are less good, but they are probably spending some time on. https://github.com/martinthomson/ietf-using-github/issues/5 From nobody Thu Feb 21 13:54:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4019F131254 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 13:54:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nbIzOa3XgQVG for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 516F513126A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 13:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.56.118] (unknown [72.235.180.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E0330281C9 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 16:54:07 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Pusateri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 11:54:05 -1000 To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 21:54:21 -0000 Something that has occurred recently that might be a subject for = discussion here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage = from the RFC Editor. We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in = Markdown format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown = version as well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. = Once the document hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and = forth copies of proposed changes to the XML directly. Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from = markdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and = made our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing = copies back and forth. One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the = process so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not = have to spend a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository. The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for = which I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect = the RFC Editor to support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It = makes me want to only use the same format that is supported by the RFC = Editor instead of using various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor = open to using any pre-processors or are they only willing to use XML? Thanks, Tom From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:00:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2930413120F for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:00:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dJWZsprOknTO for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 001BD12D4E8 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id s1so212016qte.5 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:00:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iXq5LkDr87z6e+FfClRCKL/HuxJzhHL+4Fs1oZ2q1ok=; b=WE6b5PRH4yYWheQU15+cFcdMU26fK4Fv9+bcXF0J7192tmuhMzcpAkKBCqaCvZzi6C COoLLzm4NLA3KSpFN2iYAwNiT4sNNkd4rcU2Fo9m3UmsoGx7lqyRWg2zPVBxGcDUIpJ1 PHglqmvh1OqLKP31GjwVXxS9oVBvDctK/QqptjJkFUoP4NQKe9Ah8ezMjblR73fn19WJ tfxyfzFuQ3Zk90LHYJNjhD19Xm1WZGGEefgWcrM5Rmv7/7XEVaTcvU4exAoJ58hR6eBd Xg/JoisvDG9b2cpvP4zoo8EdiyxGDrqhwuxqnef0d/o+67n1ZNlXi9z89FzNbU3EWmON +5rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iXq5LkDr87z6e+FfClRCKL/HuxJzhHL+4Fs1oZ2q1ok=; b=P5cjWF8zYlGTDFgJVKsf03sxkKdh03vo6Ps7WXlg+nkpWk5DM2QMKA/PQ/ePYT9Ipq cVKvbC7jC4XoQHu3UHdC7yw8odTIP6ge7iJ7EA+XrMW6Qk3ZIkjoCnuREwZgzGU38sIV blycRQjI9pszTZH3OBtb8OsZ5Cu3qyd8aJqc3Nk9tpSZeGpcg2Ygrk5OU/GhlsotU0+P PJxDHoyagjNGlPzauij2k2IRpbRSWxHGBhC2RLLWPlowxKP2BzZ5ItlQTsd76/cc8+eA JGcBM0qWtOrT5DQ62x5RgpG2Be0O06c6ey3dqZQkGSoyWySJyd/Ih8L2xtTUcm9wh5ww IKyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubX6/+En9tpQWglRdKVHWcoGphHi3R6mlbqY5DVXr3zx64VGTVl vC2qAB1BjkNgGIO6QMAAgi/HyVCw9J6lu3w9HpN1ng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbcKm91Ae0Bp6f69TZLFX8AYFLkoQ53qWX1TACuxsi57M7ZPdIA/AJ+J1TUFEVunC5VfhyEvViOWli5EkpOQDQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:38ba:: with SMTP id f55mr548918qtc.192.1550786446023; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:00:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:00:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tom Pusateri Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003ce07805826e9bfe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:00:50 -0000 --0000000000003ce07805826e9bfe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, This is also relevant to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Editor lurks there (but not, to my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github list). Cheers, Andy On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM Tom Pusateri wrote: > Something that has occurred recently that might be a subject for > discussion here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage fro= m > the RFC Editor. > > We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in > Markdown format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown > version as well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. > Once the document hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and > forth copies of proposed changes to the XML directly. > > Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from > markdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and > made our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing > copies back and forth. > > One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the > process so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not hav= e > to spend a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository. > > The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for > which I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect = the RFC Editor to > support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to only > use the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of using > various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any > pre-processors or are they only willing to use XML? > > Thanks, > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --0000000000003ce07805826e9bfe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

This is also relevant to the rfc-i= nterest email list, and the RFC Editor lurks there (but not, to my knowledg= e, on the ietf-and-github=C2=A0list).

Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM Tom Pusateri= <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote= :
Something that= has occurred recently that might be a subject for discussion here is the f= inal editing of documents during AUTH48 stage from the RFC Editor.

We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in Mark= down format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown version as= well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. Once the doc= ument hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and forth copies of= proposed changes to the XML directly.

Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from ma= rkdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and made = our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing copies b= ack and forth.

One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the process= so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not have to spen= d a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository.

The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for whi= ch I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect the R= FC Editor to support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me wa= nt to only use the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead = of using various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any p= re-processors or are they only willing to use XML?

Thanks,
Tom

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--0000000000003ce07805826e9bfe-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:03:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B521A131269 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:03:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TDHfpOHNtNU for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x743.google.com (mail-qk1-x743.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::743]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DCA6128AFB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x743.google.com with SMTP id v139so81407qkb.12 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NMCODLga28F3ViEjeJh+4JNFBg9z2SWuvG0tXbYg8XY=; b=dQgsHy7VqZBFigrWFpgK8/XVFX3B4rGc9RXoscjHKW8lnW5tl0TFrJ8a0OZe70D21K dgBC4A71wefUnstZkWsoaPgPjCuCDr/RlpCtX45i7y2hapR/Rl+Ij8jveCaqNyQRjxp7 owZDir9O/UYyIphABE9WOKhPx0RBQAmJ0e7JYpnPeKEEE0WMX8jRmIy5Y6oaLLex14bX VqBFog3BjdGAFJvYaL9AhfcFQVXGtT1GnezcUH8UmW2JDfExLGoiNsJThcJhPvZsAoMc TsO6lf+RV3cMpPXCGHDO0csFK9G/1VU7B/2XbKYdIdc8QVHWtJzOm5uojEc1k/NzqT55 QnzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NMCODLga28F3ViEjeJh+4JNFBg9z2SWuvG0tXbYg8XY=; b=kk7Ebojx2GEvzgxtNpLqOipUD+Bf8LAva9cW0+egMWdBOFt3/RfAgjzwqs4/zVIvTZ kgplWXkNjPGDKWtGI5fYhCAc4AysC7Dle4dA2sHGDu1veT9IC7gM8W8Lg/BaecGwLxYT eHgaYVW8W/N0ip+zn6DByOZ4FwjIwnToVYK75GzFNpIVlnXm1LhSbY9v1wWzBfXrJvpg 9NHLJ5NxhZRKgvtuEWFFZF2NagJj/wKP+F2jl8cq3KNz/tPIw96DY7ehOg2Z8og5LSYO 2FG3O5iXPgPq/khIHaDm89XibIIBRW/ARwGvYkvt2bINOruWPVLH//C320355fsxNK7B Izcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAub6VRDWp1JhWMK/O7s4FPr4YJJsWBcx3sPSsBsUukFjkgtkxzi5 FUkfBeVedRtIxxosH8YOg204rPlcA+zTAPiPex8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZbnMFMsXx6koxplEixZisV1PZv2eHOG6DHLZL+0/puvSz+Std/FsRQjG+dCsTh5tJkucZolWZJZacyiLGT2H0= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:c308:: with SMTP id n8mr618639qkg.10.1550786601163; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:03:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tom Pusateri Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c217805826ea4c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:03:30 -0000 --0000000000007c217805826ea4c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, in case you're not already on it, I should have included the full email address for the rfc-interest list, as it's not at ietf.org: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org . Cheers, Andy On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:00 PM Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Tom, > > This is also relevant to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Editor > lurks there (but not, to my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github list). > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM Tom Pusateri wrote: > >> Something that has occurred recently that might be a subject for >> discussion here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage fr= om >> the RFC Editor. >> >> We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in >> Markdown format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown >> version as well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. >> Once the document hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and >> forth copies of proposed changes to the XML directly. >> >> Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from >> markdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and >> made our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing >> copies back and forth. >> >> One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the >> process so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not ha= ve >> to spend a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository. >> >> The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for >> which I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect= the RFC Editor to >> support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to only >> use the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of using >> various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any >> pre-processors or are they only willing to use XML? >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >> > --0000000000007c217805826ea4c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also, in case you're not already on i= t, I should have included the full email address for the rfc-interest list,= as it's not at ietf.org:=C2=A0rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org=C2=A0 .=

Cheers,
Andy

=



On Thu, Feb 21,= 2019 at 5:00 PM Andrew G. Malis <a= gmalis@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,

This is also relev= ant to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Editor lurks there (but not= , to my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github=C2=A0list).

<= div>Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55= PM Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
Something that has occurred recently that might be a su= bject for discussion here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 s= tage from the RFC Editor.

We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in Mark= down format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown version as= well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. Once the doc= ument hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and forth copies of= proposed changes to the XML directly.

Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from ma= rkdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and made = our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing copies b= ack and forth.

One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the process= so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not have to spen= d a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository.

The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for whi= ch I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect the R= FC Editor to support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me wa= nt to only use the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead = of using various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any p= re-processors or are they only willing to use XML?

Thanks,
Tom

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--0000000000007c217805826ea4c5-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:05:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE9C130EB5 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:05:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BROUh0zuNLRd for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x741.google.com (mail-qk1-x741.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::741]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F281128AFB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x741.google.com with SMTP id y15so102884qki.8 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:05:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AnhKvRD3jHf/6IWABTgyle1SRmv8/BX7hSK496505Ks=; b=pRj8XPRPYtHWxN0KzkCoUI8v3j6C4eCR1NRqR2n9IlSPe8dSEMU5ucMYMjlt6n0RR6 m2aLdmUpouOS2GflDDAqo916289+Ez4UnBup9Y92A4bD+JhcAB32rWlNSnQfk8EXveog BOvOnI68nfF+SJB0NSfZ5FrD2Q86QBwnP/qTj8PlYn0fTKzvYu7GLYJAH+SDUOfztdMN rtFQ7hgXUKHam/lZvCRIV4EEnAAA/zbhklTPuFDXpz8K/6cD11iYOq/Q5rT8FaiZEVDE 2Ghk+HouCp2k8v/5NnJ8FX/8URijSWei1BUx4NO9smAWqfwRM00j+1p5k3JR/VmMxD2P /Dbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AnhKvRD3jHf/6IWABTgyle1SRmv8/BX7hSK496505Ks=; b=nqXRaQ6F9RSxjIPonx3Y6oEAWHN7Mtyg4tWyVhfKqvsSipYoRZBno3W2UveHIhAzn3 u1GPadeWpdIfqLPm7tU5URIeqbzEqVRiQ1EigrxMkncgGVS+khu8h7xpfNO5nOWAgCWc PxqBjpgqChRLSy7yGst5YkcdyGZrDnpWJbB5rWszwdyExMtMzpWMYk25feLkM+fN3gEb JDD11cu1XXCz7Dlvd4jyi8pvwZ8ddyhqV8WyXyz5KGmaEOscWMR2ff369XQynGq88p7A hi/9VYe32wJokYfF0Q+j5jUqp8YocCLx+a7g/V0jCdRJqdVf9W5XahCexqL8dMjDVsKu qqzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZGP3uhGTPxdxi5Xq4b0gz8/9k7vY98SVHiRMES+PfNIMuFC2GF zFmgxzghKA9S4/fw7hlt1oBj+4mXnCe06MFoWCw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ib4MEQD16zgMVvm4q+q+LISTjK2FHrFsEiC1WWp1QU/7StQEXEloYoGkpgAeM8XzOLNlSWS1flo/MXWiNK7PzE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1362:: with SMTP id d2mr625139qkl.210.1550786712425; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:05:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:05:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tom Pusateri Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001dd8b305826eab20" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:05:16 -0000 --0000000000001dd8b305826eab20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Darn autocorrect: it's rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:03 PM Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Also, in case you're not already on it, I should have included the full > email address for the rfc-interest list, as it's not at ietf.org: > rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org . > > Cheers, > Andy > > > > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:00 PM Andrew G. Malis wrote= : > >> Tom, >> >> This is also relevant to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Editor >> lurks there (but not, to my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github list). >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM Tom Pusateri wrote: >> >>> Something that has occurred recently that might be a subject for >>> discussion here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage f= rom >>> the RFC Editor. >>> >>> We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in >>> Markdown format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown >>> version as well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process= . >>> Once the document hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and >>> forth copies of proposed changes to the XML directly. >>> >>> Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document fro= m >>> markdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and >>> made our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing >>> copies back and forth. >>> >>> One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the >>> process so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not h= ave >>> to spend a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository. >>> >>> The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for >>> which I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expec= t the RFC Editor to >>> support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to onl= y >>> use the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of usin= g >>> various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any >>> pre-processors or are they only willing to use XML? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Tom >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ietf-and-github mailing list >>> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>> >> --0000000000001dd8b305826eab20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Darn autocorrect: it's rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org


On Thu, Feb 2= 1, 2019 at 5:03 PM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, in case you'r= e not already on it, I should have included the full email address for the = rfc-interest list, as it's not at ietf.org:=C2=A0rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org=C2=A0 .

Cheers,
Andy




=
On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:00 PM Andre= w G. Malis <agmal= is@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,

This is also relevant = to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Editor lurks there (but not, to= my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github=C2=A0list).

= Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM = Tom Pusateri <pu= sateri@bangj.com> wrote:
Something that has occurred recently that might be a subjec= t for discussion here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage= from the RFC Editor.

We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in Mark= down format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown version as= well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. Once the doc= ument hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and forth copies of= proposed changes to the XML directly.

Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from ma= rkdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and made = our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing copies b= ack and forth.

One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the process= so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not have to spen= d a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository.

The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for whi= ch I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect the R= FC Editor to support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me wa= nt to only use the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead = of using various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any p= re-processors or are they only willing to use XML?

Thanks,
Tom

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
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Malis" , Tom Pusateri CC: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github Thread-Index: AQHUyjAH2FT2ypSl0EO0Fkz54toGLKXqzV6AgAAAuACAAAD/Rg== Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:06:44 +0000 Message-ID: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mbishop@evequefou.be; x-originating-ip: [146.79.194.4] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b4e67400-c1b8-4854-1f96-08d69848ddbc x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(7021145)(8989299)(4534185)(7022145)(4603075)(4627221)(201702281549075)(8990200)(7048125)(7024125)(7027125)(7023125)(5600110)(711020)(4605104)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:CY4PR22MB0168; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR22MB0168: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 3 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-forefront-prvs: 09555FB1AD x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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boundary="_000_30098473a8464315b8a695a71b26bdbdevequefoube_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: evequefou.be X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b4e67400-c1b8-4854-1f96-08d69848ddbc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Feb 2019 22:06:44.3173 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 41eaf50b-882d-47eb-8c4c-0b5b76a9da8f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR22MB0168 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:06:52 -0000 --_000_30098473a8464315b8a695a71b26bdbdevequefoube_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of the t= hings we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for the RFC = Editor. Sent from Nine ________________________________ From: "Andrew G. Malis" Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 2:03 PM To: Tom Pusateri Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github Also, in case you're not already on it, I should have included the full ema= il address for the rfc-interest list, as it's not at ietf.org: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org . Cheers, Andy On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:00 PM Andrew G. Malis > wrote: Tom, This is also relevant to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Editor lu= rks there (but not, to my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github list). Cheers, Andy On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM Tom Pusateri > wrote: Something that has occurred recently that might be a subject for discussion= here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage from the RFC Ed= itor. We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in Mark= down format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown version as= well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. Once the doc= ument hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and forth copies of= proposed changes to the XML directly. Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from ma= rkdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and made = our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing copies b= ack and forth. One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the process= so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not have to spen= d a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository. The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for whi= ch I don=92t have a solution. I realize we can=92t expect the RFC Editor to= support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to only u= se the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of using var= ious pre-processor tools. Is the RFC Editor open to using any pre-processor= s or are they only willing to use XML? Thanks, Tom _______________________________________________ Ietf-and-github mailing list Ietf-and-github@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --_000_30098473a8464315b8a695a71b26bdbdevequefoube_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of = the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for the= RFC Editor.

Sent from Nine
From: "Andrew G= . Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 2:03 PM
To: Tom Pusateri
Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github

Also, in case you're not already on it, I should have incl= uded the full email address for the rfc-interest list, as it's not at ietf.org: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org  .

Cheers,
Andy




On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:00 PM Andre= w G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Tom,

This is also relevant to the rfc-interest email list, and the RFC Edit= or lurks there (but not, to my knowledge, on the ietf-and-github list)= .

Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:55 PM Tom P= usateri <pusater= i@bangj.com> wrote:
Something that has occurred recently that might be a subject for discussion= here is the final editing of documents during AUTH48 stage from the RFC Ed= itor.

We had a draft enter AUTH48 that was written using kramdown-rfc2629 in Mark= down format. All of the work was done on github and the markdown version as= well as the XML version was tracked during the whole process. Once the doc= ument hit AUTH48, the RFC editor starting emailing back and forth copies of proposed changes to the XML dir= ectly.

Since they started with a modified XML changing the source document from ma= rkdown to XML, we created a new document in our github repository and made = our changes and resubmitted it to them only to go back to emailing copies b= ack and forth.

One outcome of this group could incorporate the RFC Editor into the process= so that we can avoid emailing versions back and forth and not have to spen= d a lot of time tracking changes in our source repository.

The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem for whi= ch I don=92t have a solution. I realize we can=92t expect the RFC Editor to= support any XML pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to only u= se the same format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of using various pre-processor tools. Is the RFC= Editor open to using any pre-processors or are they only willing to use XM= L?

Thanks,
Tom

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--_000_30098473a8464315b8a695a71b26bdbdevequefoube_-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:08:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7181C12950A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZ_gH9ajzM3j for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32329128AFB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:08:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1LM8Oxm005618; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:08:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4457s35w9yz1Bp8; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:08:23 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:08:22 +0100 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572479700.615039-b4921bcfeb1a0e8187bb6fe4ef907c9a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E939113-6CB9-423D-8F35-BA703C9EEB59@tzi.org> References: To: Tom Pusateri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:08:37 -0000 On Feb 21, 2019, at 22:54, Tom Pusateri wrote: >=20 > The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem = for which I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. That is indeed an interesting issue. One would hope that the AUTH48 work is limited, so this is not a big = problem (it has not been in the 8+ years I have been using kramdown-rfc = now). One mode of usage of kramdown-rfc2629 is that small snippets can be = entered in markdown and translated to RFCXML by the tool. That of = course requires some basic proficiency in an XML editor to call an = external tool. (As in !}kramdown-rfc2629 in vim, IIRC.) (I have even used that for collaborating on documents authored in = RFCXML, but I simply don=E2=80=99t do that any more.) One other useful tool here can be an upconverter, but that requires some = of the markdown formatting to survive the XML editing if it is not to = cause massive deltas in the source code revision control. (I have an = upconverter, but haven=E2=80=99t found the time or need to make that = foolproof.) > I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect the RFC Editor to support any XML = pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to only use the same = format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of using various = pre-processor tools. I think that the advantages of using markdown in the creation and = gestation phase outweigh some small discontinuity in the AUTH48 phase. = If AUTH48 becomes massive, maybe you are doing it wrong :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:10:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDC312950A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:10:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hkbl6DI0qS_T for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98AD7128AFB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.56.118] (unknown [72.235.180.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7248C281DB; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:10:01 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Pusateri Message-Id: <49103F64-7156-49BA-8744-4B6AF66ED1D9@bangj.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DD6335D6-0BB2-4170-9CA7-7816E0DE3654" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 12:09:58 -1000 In-Reply-To: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: Mike Bishop References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:10:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DD6335D6-0BB2-4170-9CA7-7816E0DE3654 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 21, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Mike Bishop = wrote: >=20 > Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of = the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for = the RFC Editor.=20 It would be nice to have the changes in one place from the beginning to = end (especially with regards to errata and bis documents). And as a side benefit, I would like to have access to the XML versions = of all the published documents so that external tools can be easily = built for searching, categorizing, etc directly from the XML source = instead of screen scraping the TXT or HTML formats. I=E2=80=99ve asked = the RFC Editor about this in the past and they said it is something they = want to do but aren=E2=80=99t there yet. Tom --Apple-Mail=_DD6335D6-0BB2-4170-9CA7-7816E0DE3654 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Feb 21, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private = repo). One of the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's = feasible for the RFC Editor. 

It would be = nice to have the changes in one place from the beginning to end = (especially with regards to errata and bis documents).

And as a side benefit, I would like to have access = to the XML versions of all the published documents so that external = tools can be easily built for searching, categorizing, etc directly from = the XML source instead of screen scraping the TXT or HTML formats. = I=E2=80=99ve asked the RFC Editor about this in the past and they said = it is something they want to do but aren=E2=80=99t there = yet.

Tom

= --Apple-Mail=_DD6335D6-0BB2-4170-9CA7-7816E0DE3654-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:15:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA82130ECF for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:15:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id glJWqll6Fe-M for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDDA012D4EA for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.56.118] (unknown [72.235.180.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58A18281E0; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:15:29 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Tom Pusateri In-Reply-To: <9E939113-6CB9-423D-8F35-BA703C9EEB59@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 12:15:27 -1000 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9E939113-6CB9-423D-8F35-BA703C9EEB59@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:15:34 -0000 > On Feb 21, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Feb 21, 2019, at 22:54, Tom Pusateri wrote: >>=20 >> The markdown to XML source change is a separate unfortunate problem = for which I don=E2=80=99t have a solution. >=20 > That is indeed an interesting issue. >=20 > One would hope that the AUTH48 work is limited, so this is not a big = problem (it has not been in the 8+ years I have been using kramdown-rfc = now). >=20 > One mode of usage of kramdown-rfc2629 is that small snippets can be = entered in markdown and translated to RFCXML by the tool. That of = course requires some basic proficiency in an XML editor to call an = external tool. (As in !}kramdown-rfc2629 in vim, IIRC.) > (I have even used that for collaborating on documents authored in = RFCXML, but I simply don=E2=80=99t do that any more.) >=20 > One other useful tool here can be an upconverter, but that requires = some of the markdown formatting to survive the XML editing if it is not = to cause massive deltas in the source code revision control. (I have an = upconverter, but haven=E2=80=99t found the time or need to make that = foolproof.) >=20 >> I realize we can=E2=80=99t expect the RFC Editor to support any XML = pre-processor that comes along. It makes me want to only use the same = format that is supported by the RFC Editor instead of using various = pre-processor tools. >=20 > I think that the advantages of using markdown in the creation and = gestation phase outweigh some small discontinuity in the AUTH48 phase. = If AUTH48 becomes massive, maybe you are doing it wrong :-) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 The RFC Editor team is really good at their job and they seem to find = things that no one else does, mostly with consistency. So the bigger the = document, the more they seem to find. The job of writing a technical document and editing one are quite = different and the skill sets are also quite different so we both need = each other. :) Tom= From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:18:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0115F13120F for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:18:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hifdvHgCI2_e for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D987131233 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:18:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1LMIEPY012828; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:18:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 44584Q4Vydz1Bp8; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:18:14 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <49103F64-7156-49BA-8744-4B6AF66ED1D9@bangj.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:18:13 +0100 Cc: Mike Bishop , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , "Andrew G. Malis" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572480291.263411-8d2038bb2e1a08366f8c0ca16a50277b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9929F407-1994-4894-9F0E-571E83C1E953@tzi.org> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <49103F64-7156-49BA-8744-4B6AF66ED1D9@bangj.com> To: Tom Pusateri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:18:32 -0000 On Feb 21, 2019, at 23:09, Tom Pusateri wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 21, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Mike Bishop = wrote: >>=20 >> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of = the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for = the RFC Editor.=20 >=20 > It would be nice to have the changes in one place from the beginning = to end (especially with regards to errata and bis documents). That=E2=80=99s maybe an argument for developing the upconverter to = industrial strength. (I already need it to start with the published version for -bis = documents; sometimes I=E2=80=99m too lazy and just rfcdiff the outputs = and redo the few auth48 changes in the source though.) Of course, one of the things that are also done when moving up to a -bis = document is getting rid of the bindings to specific versions of the = I-D.* references again =E2=80=94 some of which have turned into RFCs = which requires some manual editing anyway. > And as a side benefit, I would like to have access to the XML versions = of all the published documents so that external tools can be easily = built=20 That comes with switching to XML as the primary publishing format, no? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:32:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD3413126E for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:32:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bVNXAlkCHety for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30F9713126A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:32:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1LMWKVV024427; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:32:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4458Nh0XwHz1Bp8; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:32:20 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:32:19 +0100 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572481137.306601-5fe56ccee1c08baa1c73f5b61e9e3e98 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9E939113-6CB9-423D-8F35-BA703C9EEB59@tzi.org> To: Tom Pusateri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:32:35 -0000 > The RFC Editor team is really good at their job and they seem to find = things that no one else does, mostly with consistency. So the bigger the = document, the more they seem to find. Certainly (and I have been on the authors=E2=80=99 side for documents = such as RFC 3095, so I have fully experienced what you mean). > The job of writing a technical document and editing one are quite = different and the skill sets are also quite different so we both need = each other. :) Right. I=E2=80=99m just wondering what the incremental benefit of = integrating their work into my source code control is: I can live with = the discontinuity =E2=80=94 finding a way to avoid that would certainly = be even better, but not that necessary. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 21 18:25:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73857128B01 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 18:25:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.923 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.923 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TIocCWPHNZgh for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 18:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-os2jpn01on070e.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe9c::70e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D44B7126F72 for ; 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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 18:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.79.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l7sm203694pfj.162.2019.02.21.18.41.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Feb 2019 18:41:34 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Mike Bishop Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <428749ad-9e03-56cf-f8c6-1d3d06d0bfb2@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:41:27 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 02:41:38 -0000 > But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull requests= =20 > are way more precise, Really? I absolutely don't understand that assertion.=20 Regards Brian On 2019-02-22 15:25, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote: >> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of = the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for t= he RFC Editor. >=20 > I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I'm=20 > myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to push=20 > (sic) it on anybody else. >=20 > But I think it would be highly beneficial for the RFC Editor to try to = > slowly move to (also use) git(hub). They may take quite some time=20 > because they have other things on their plate, and have to make sure=20 > they move carefully, and establish a process that works for them. >=20 > But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull requests= =20 > are way more precise, and that's what matters for their work. If they=20 > can reduce the number of hickups in the back-and-forth with the editors= =20 > in Auth48, that may help them quite a bit. >=20 > Regards, Martin. > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > . >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 21 19:04:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CE8128B01 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:03:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 68eEUBFsOzQh for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B01E01288BD for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445GQ64CnLzZmPh; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:03:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1550804638; bh=58//NNs1HFcMt1VmaOFroio9HCC2e2SeVvEgUX7Q+mY=; h=Subject:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Lw0iDBGS512YoLoqby/302tvAEHBVOFZdz0W6cvh7yV8LP1zJmh7Ttha7cFlMlFdu 9uLFmsQw7HkjeArKykjXG7Nq1tql7g3lc+ouILDpN7wxU43aXSgbRhKsVig/ZEG9ft oJfb4lsaHqdcWaqKFo2YLqYjOE6MfFdZeO/AEokk= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445GQ50T70zZmQ4; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:03:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:03:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 03:04:00 -0000 The RFC Editor (more specifically the production center) already conducted an experiment in using github in conjunction with the editing process. While I will leave it to Heather to provide details, the simple result was that it turned out to be VERY painful. Please do not assume that using github / git for that part of the process is a trivial or easy step for us to take. Yours, Joel On 2/21/19 9:25 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote: >> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for the RFC Editor. > > I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I'm > myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to push > (sic) it on anybody else. > > But I think it would be highly beneficial for the RFC Editor to try to > slowly move to (also use) git(hub). They may take quite some time > because they have other things on their plate, and have to make sure > they move carefully, and establish a process that works for them. > > But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull requests > are way more precise, and that's what matters for their work. If they > can reduce the number of hickups in the back-and-forth with the editors > in Auth48, that may help them quite a bit. > > Regards, Martin. > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > From nobody Thu Feb 21 19:06:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D2D12F295 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:06:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.923 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.923 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7iLcw12b1nm for ; 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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 20:11:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 20:10:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce10af058273c78b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 04:11:13 -0000 --000000000000ce10af058273c78b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 7:04 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > The RFC Editor (more specifically the production center) already > conducted an experiment in using github in conjunction with the editing > process. While I will leave it to Heather to provide details, the > simple result was that it turned out to be VERY painful. > > Please do not assume that using github / git for that part of the > process is a trivial or easy step for us to take. > As one of the main people involved in that experiment, I have mixed feeling= s about it. On the one hand, it was quite painful. On the other hand, in many respects, it was quite a bit easier for me than previous experiences with AUTH48 because it made it possible to precisely localize and respond to every proposed change. A full analysis of the situation is certainly out of scope for this WG, but in short, one difficulty with the AUTH48 process is the intermixture of different kinds of changes, for instance: - Boilerplate-type changes - Reformatting - Copy-editing - Pagination/typesetting - Semi-substantive changes by the AD and editors Having to work with these all at the same time makes it quite difficult to properly assess and manage each change. This is the kind of thing that can be improved by tooling, but it also requires a certain level of discipline about dividing up each type of change that we didn't do in the previous github experiment, so I think that any future experiment would need some more planning along these lines. -Ekr Yours, > Joel > > On 2/21/19 9:25 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote: > >> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of > the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for t= he > RFC Editor. > > > > I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I'm > > myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to push > > (sic) it on anybody else. > > > > But I think it would be highly beneficial for the RFC Editor to try to > > slowly move to (also use) git(hub). They may take quite some time > > because they have other things on their plate, and have to make sure > > they move carefully, and establish a process that works for them. > > > > But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull requests > > are way more precise, and that's what matters for their work. If they > > can reduce the number of hickups in the back-and-forth with the editors > > in Auth48, that may help them quite a bit. > > > > Regards, Martin. > > _______________________________________________ > > rfc-interest mailing list > > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000ce10af058273c78b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 7:04 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Th= e RFC Editor (more specifically the production center) already
conducted an experiment in using github in conjunction with the editing process.=C2=A0 While I will leave it to Heather to provide details, the simple result was that it turned out to be VERY painful.

Please do not assume that using github / git for that part of the
process is a trivial or easy step for us to take.

it was= quite a bit easier for me than previous experiences with AUTH48 because
it made it possible to precisely localize and respond to every prop= osed change.

A full analysis of the situation is c= ertainly out of scope for this WG, but in short,
one difficulty w= ith the AUTH48 process is the intermixture of different kinds of
= changes, for instance:

- Boilerplate-type chan= ges
- Reformatting
- Copy-editing
- P= agination/typesetting
- Semi-substantive changes by the AD and ed= itors

Having to work with these all at the same ti= me makes it quite difficult to properly
assess and manage each ch= ange. This is the kind of thing that can be improved
by tooling, = but it also requires a certain level of discipline about dividing up each
type of change that we didn't do in the previous github experi= ment, so I think that
any future experiment would need some more = planning along these lines.

-Ekr


Yours,
Joel

On 2/21/19 9:25 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
> On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote:
>> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo).= One of the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's = feasible for the RFC Editor.
>
> I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I&= #39;m
> myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to pu= sh
> (sic) it on anybody else.
>
> But I think it would be highly beneficial for the RFC Editor to try to=
> slowly move to (also use) git(hub). They may take quite some time
> because they have other things on their plate, and have to make sure > they move carefully, and establish a process that works for them.
>
> But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull request= s
> are way more precise, and that's what matters for their work. If t= hey
> can reduce the number of hickups in the back-and-forth with the editor= s
> in Auth48, that may help them quite a bit.
>
> Regards,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> rfc-i= nterest@rfc-editor.org
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/list= info/rfc-interest
>

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--000000000000ce10af058273c78b-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 20:34:41 2019 Return-Path: <01000169137bce2a-986d3be9-b7e8-467a-b4b8-4ea0d04db2a4-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA81130E11 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 20:34:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6pqtNsiVCiwT for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 20:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-64.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-64.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71A5812F295 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 20:34:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1550810074; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=xCF/Tk6D7EdDzEB08/0OeymDYpHGFUFMIHoBLYdv03I=; b=JvPtTTBjmhdeTCzNyjX89VXs1fpO02sgfIXdoxotbPjfNLMAuPlRiUJD35GUyXhH JLQ2GXCDg1A8M2LbZlUMAVJnmX8X3JxAd3bdOL/+AboG+PwuJ9WPcc2Xe1z1DPEFEu8 chkqb3QDoNVToeFv9ywb1V0IC/Sg00ZctWLemVIE= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 04:34:34 +0000 Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <01000169137bce2a-986d3be9-b7e8-467a-b4b8-4ea0d04db2a4-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.22-54.240.8.64 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 04:34:39 -0000 I appreciate that folks (including myself) are enthusiastic about using = GitHub and Markdown, but it would be a mistake to change the publishing = process to incorporate such things. For one, it begs the question as = to how many variants might be allowed (since GitHub/Markdown wouldn't = ever be mandated) and, with each variant, the overhead to understand and = maintain support for it. I think the IETF rightly defines a single = interface for getting work done. Kent > On Feb 21, 2019, at 10:03 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > The RFC Editor (more specifically the production center) already = conducted an experiment in using github in conjunction with the editing = process. While I will leave it to Heather to provide details, the = simple result was that it turned out to be VERY painful. >=20 > Please do not assume that using github / git for that part of the = process is a trivial or easy step for us to take. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 2/21/19 9:25 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote: >>> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One = of the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible = for the RFC Editor. >> I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I'm >> myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to push >> (sic) it on anybody else. >> But I think it would be highly beneficial for the RFC Editor to try = to >> slowly move to (also use) git(hub). They may take quite some time >> because they have other things on their plate, and have to make sure >> they move carefully, and establish a process that works for them. >> But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull = requests >> are way more precise, and that's what matters for their work. If they >> can reduce the number of hickups in the back-and-forth with the = editors >> in Auth48, that may help them quite a bit. >> Regards, Martin. >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Thu Feb 21 21:51:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E43512894E for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 21:51:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diz1d-slDhfB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 21:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A83531275F3 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 21:51:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1M5p33j029006; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 06:51:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445L6v1RLKz1Bp8; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 06:51:03 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <85e6e90e-7928-4495-3d54-6b1fedd82e28@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 06:51:02 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572507460.25621-a367582749ca39377e9557261ee925d9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <06E627BC-A96A-4A1C-BB0A-51CC64B1CBD8@tzi.org> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <428749ad-9e03-56cf-f8c6-1d3d06d0bfb2@gmail.com> <85e6e90e-7928-4495-3d54-6b1fedd82e28@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 05:51:16 -0000 On Feb 22, 2019, at 04:06, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst = wrote: >=20 >>> But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull = requests >>> are way more precise, >>=20 >> Really? I absolutely don't understand that assertion. >=20 > The OLD-NEW style requires a description of location/context in = natural=20 > language. That's imprecise. Also, to create it from an actual document=20= > and to apply it to an actual document requires human work. That can = also=20 > lead to imprecision. So what? They are not applied mindlessly. After each round, I can go = ahead and diff the updated .txt files, which is exactly what I=E2=80=99m = doing in an AUTH48 process. Not all changes are done in OLD/NEW format; there are also more = pervasive instructions such as =E2=80=9CCapitalize all instances of foo = unless used in the English sense=E2=80=9D. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 22 07:53:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4EB130E81 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:53:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OZzgPOBWnOs for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x12f.google.com (mail-it1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 282E412008F for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id r11so3591005itc.2 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:53:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=K/r9GSF6foaG54BLs6GLq+5TQcioVmz7Z31rh8QuXBw=; b=gatCRysce1zgk85BKyH+5BVL3F+yzGVYT9wp4hXr7RATfHj2igL7bI6nXrA8e89xV3 Ne5ZDuIsXq62JX3Q+2WJfFv2B9zdGjlmyB08SriEeIel2Wjt/NOlLB0pNM+ShVT53yMn myHhndHVQpyY251MsOEcwuu/n7/rDeAtCXd777KQmKYDqSocw1Xsf08/CXpuhWxjW5Xj Vxzw6MDOcHMEQo0yP5RwPT6HF8FZjFg7qW4uXl7e1Q5Y3HiAkkPaH/h8PczNTv0MtRdm 8bSJ9sGOKQMCJk1yZpfM7ix3+QutaApVZIXbCDWdBQd6aXOvMGzwcdhz26V/Q01XVddC 0PEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=K/r9GSF6foaG54BLs6GLq+5TQcioVmz7Z31rh8QuXBw=; b=CLa3QYWBMpVyvGAiRcaN6x/f1fGhUgzMyXof9twtPWujfloSjEQ3ej6/UYqkFvrpUf Iwp3OcYkjTQdiFYcgBIuZTksRjIxXdKq17w8C4YBeN1BnnqfSG5EDGTui4EoeyTrHU5p SLNiIQbsx/hLfml4TEf/EO4HDidCPW6+JA6l0gyP7J+07aSKF7yV2QyEdAUsuIcQ8Mfc OAsAQ7p+9t2XMR3eDFH6DJN3MOX73VYD+pP5JyCaM67q7O8ZOItyyI2kjkrv6oyF3EXX Z1aXnf8+6i6AFfF2cP2rsRBWMpfBOoC+CdBgYaxrRt9kjV/QFx997bt23UYtIMcvGK9l 3s6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaZZItWk7+/Qr4YalheeWJ+9oeHW2ydQK8tOP+9WtnActBL7Wku DSmkNUGOTYrAGn3usTsEJY273g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IabN0VsK31s0nLvUIEZzr+3Vj1dIkB8cvNzg/dQy0o23eimGA8K/DD2EDNgH4wF9eyE3q28Vw== X-Received: by 2002:a24:6993:: with SMTP id e141mr2538804itc.57.1550850785568; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.0.253] ([75.104.88.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j143sm843981itj.16.2019.02.22.07.53.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:53:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A9973AD0-23A7-4698-8311-AFF352B664AC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:52:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: Eric Rescorla References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:53:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A9973AD0-23A7-4698-8311-AFF352B664AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 21, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On the one hand, it was quite painful. You=E2=80=99re the second person to say this, so I assume it=E2=80=99s = true, but it=E2=80=99s also surprising. It would be helpful if = (perhaps this has already been done) there could be a writeup of what = about the process of using github was painful. We aren=E2=80=99t = constrained to either choosing to use github or do nothing to improve = the process, and your point about auth48 changes resonates for me too. = If we understood why Github didn=E2=80=99t make things better, or what = things about Github made things enough worse that the things Github made = better weren=E2=80=99t enough, that would be helpful. --Apple-Mail=_A9973AD0-23A7-4698-8311-AFF352B664AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 21, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:
On the one hand, it was quite = painful.

You=E2=80=99re the second person to say this, so I assume = it=E2=80=99s true, but it=E2=80=99s also surprising.   It would be = helpful if (perhaps this has already been done) there could be a writeup = of what about the process of using github was painful.   We = aren=E2=80=99t constrained to either choosing to use github or do = nothing to improve the process, and your point about auth48 changes = resonates for me too.   If we understood why Github didn=E2=80=99t = make things better, or what things about Github made things enough worse = that the things Github made better weren=E2=80=99t enough, that would be = helpful.

= --Apple-Mail=_A9973AD0-23A7-4698-8311-AFF352B664AC-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 07:56:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F24130E81 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:56:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vX-kHamGPksU for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x144.google.com (mail-lf1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3A0C130E16 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x144.google.com with SMTP id t14so2083089lfk.7 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:56:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UgSj0i0SkDqH+GQ2rwQbvU3GK0LNrJZQ5LYFmDBsJhI=; b=ul0PcjHJUw6hwOETQzG9bAkhRWby5GHFP3pkL1RGAzyQlaFwj/sI9GZtoQHPyFQ7IK xIpK8UbDuWyrJPpeaafUVFUgeQLbzx+IeLeNvl7SKavUAzii3+Ubh3MxGyoUbdc/0pqC 2G4H89v6w99g9RCtm4ulpeUh9oVy/1F+fy6gDrd44fBp37DSC1WgAL3+osjIdIjOJs1u bUaHwFbVVenLXQC3WxMIZcFeljoyt+jvwm3IxMv9Qzjaxjn1daJxMUeO5uw3Tl4YvRdF tFLMQffV1UtuwMmzaClqQwtR5xchw7g7TZl4jXXx2L13aqcNBrsR57HUx4kFTx9QbBov lWZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UgSj0i0SkDqH+GQ2rwQbvU3GK0LNrJZQ5LYFmDBsJhI=; b=ifmqveeHAEeKCG7SKLTIVWI0HZY08LqYkidJ9ZMhoAJPiPDBf/QuzbPntSo+jL3nr9 oVLAJsLha2Z5reDYIzgFCfVwVYBKJYwXgAdCUp2Uxx9gT4tkCDP5kfNSmzkOVXircOFN fD/vjVMsD8wgaHfQMLXPcibDLtYxeG9lSkiGI8C/mec4vURjkFCAjyVVtcmKKVCM5iD/ PG5NBB4AoJao8h8+1ZJlxl+v62R2hKguFNHSXE+J02jVoJSxcGC8KYQTTBAP5Gve61aB Zva7Sxx1KyS5+piADfky4UnN5M9R24NMN8LGRADkt3RSzmqPhnJlszuusvb+9uQnU/L8 vgWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZeBTwvOgP/mmUyjbZXMvPiMvlKKusddHtv5wyEmvh8ZLHa1aGS v7jhRYMJo1NF+hdsrjceW+/Pm9j/VlgoN6IYp+ir6A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaPmK0nHVweJEgEpD2O3YbW+eAsdJOQZj+IEAIhoG4XhsXrIsr3Oyc5eJIm/rCvvWvTB84XsbVCp4ngP3Cto+M= X-Received: by 2002:a19:5013:: with SMTP id e19mr2803325lfb.89.1550851004592; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:56:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 07:56:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003a905005827da3bc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:56:49 -0000 --0000000000003a905005827da3bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's my writeup of my thoughts after the experiment. We experimented with using Github for the publication of TLS 1.3. The overall process was that Github was used primarily for feedback: 1. The RFC Editor supplied iterative versions of the XML files. 2. The draft editor put them up on Github (initially as PRs and later just as commits) 3. We used Github's review tool to refine proposed changes both from the RPC and from the editor/chairs/AD 4. The editor provided updated XML from the editor/chair/AD changes in three ways: (a) patches (b) new XML files (c) OLD/NEW format WHAT WENT WELL I found Github very useful for refining the precise content of what we plan to ship. Specifically: - The RPC makes a lot of changes in their first pass, and so Github reviews allowed me to individually see, accept, or reject each one. - As the editor/chair/AD team made our final changes, PRs structured that interaction and let us only ship when we had refined text. Having each XML revision in Github also made it possible to do incremental diffs, which is inconvenient with the current practice of updating the XML and TXT files on the FTP site with every revision. In one case, it let us track down when a particular error was introduced, which was helpful. WHAT WENT BADLY The initial AUTH48 version from the RFC Editor included both textual changes and whitespace changes. This produced a very large diff which was difficult to work with. In future, it would work better to have as many intermediate versions of the XML file as possible (one for each stage of the process) so that they can be individually reviewed. Having the RPC email out new XML files and then the editor upload them is clunky. It would work better if the RPC uploaded them directly (probably as PRs, though this is TBD). We adopted this strategy to minimize overhead for the RPC, but it's easy to get lost. Conversely, having the editor mail new XML to the RPC is clunky. This would work better if Github were the master copy, which is how we do things in WGs. THOUGHTS FOR FUTURE EXPERIMENTS This was valuable for me. In previous RFCs I have done it has been quite hard to keep track of all the changes and this was a bigger project. As noted above, I found it very useful to be able to individually see address each change that was made in AUTH48. However, this hybrid approach where the editor is the interface between the RPC and Github is awkward. If we try this again -- and I think we should -- I think we should do one of two things: (a) Go full Github and use it the way WGs do. (b) Limit the RPC's use of Github to seeing the editor comments on their changes. >From the document editor perspective, (a) would be better, but it seems like a big jump for the RPC, so we should probably look at (b). I think the easiest way to do (b) would just be to have two repos: (a) the master repo which is used just to integrate the RPC's changes (b) a second repo (the editor's fork) which is used to workshop the changes. Then we could treat the RPC's changes as PRs against the repo (as I had originally intended) but they wouldn't have to deal with the noise from the editor/chair/AD discussion. Ben also observed that because so much of the value of the RPC-editor Github interaction is the first set of changes from the RPC (because that's where most of the comments need to be made) that we could skip Github entirely for that and just do the comments in Phabricator. That seems like yet another tool people have to learn, though, so I tend to think we should stick with Github for that. -Ekr On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 7:53 AM Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 21, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On the one hand, it was quite painful. > > > You=E2=80=99re the second person to say this, so I assume it=E2=80=99s tr= ue, but it=E2=80=99s also > surprising. It would be helpful if (perhaps this has already been done) > there could be a writeup of what about the process of using github was > painful. We aren=E2=80=99t constrained to either choosing to use github= or do > nothing to improve the process, and your point about auth48 changes > resonates for me too. If we understood why Github didn=E2=80=99t make t= hings > better, or what things about Github made things enough worse that the > things Github made better weren=E2=80=99t enough, that would be helpful. > > --0000000000003a905005827da3bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's my writeup of my thoughts after the experi= ment.

We experimented with using Github for t= he publication of TLS 1.3.
The overall process was that Github was used = primarily for feedback:

1. The RFC Editor supplied iterative version= s of the XML files.
2. The draft editor put them up on Github (initially= as PRs
=C2=A0=C2=A0 and later just as commits)
3. We used Github'= ;s review tool to refine proposed changes both
=C2=A0=C2=A0 from the RPC= and from the editor/chairs/AD
4. The editor provided updated XML from t= he editor/chair/AD changes
=C2=A0=C2=A0 in three ways:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 (= a) patches
=C2=A0=C2=A0 (b) new XML files
=C2=A0=C2=A0 (c) OLD/NEW fo= rmat


WHAT WENT WELL
I found Github very useful for refining t= he precise content of what
we plan to ship. Specifically:

- The R= PC makes a lot of changes in their first pass, and so
=C2=A0 Github revi= ews allowed me to individually see, accept, or reject
=C2=A0 each one.
- As the editor/chair/AD team made our final changes, PRs structured<= br>=C2=A0 that interaction and let us only ship when we had refined text.
Having each XML revision in Github also made it possible to do
inc= remental diffs, which is inconvenient with the current practice
of updat= ing the XML and TXT files on the FTP site with every revision.
In one ca= se, it let us track down when a particular error was
introduced, which w= as helpful.


WHAT WENT BADLY
The initial AUTH48 version from t= he RFC Editor included both textual
changes and whitespace changes. This= produced a very large diff which
was difficult to work with. In future,= it would work better to have as
many intermediate versions of the XML f= ile as possible (one for each
stage of the process) so that they can be = individually reviewed.

Having the RPC email out new XML files and th= en the editor upload
them is clunky. It would work better if the RPC upl= oaded them directly
(probably as PRs, though this is TBD). We adopted th= is strategy to
minimize overhead for the RPC, but it's easy to get l= ost. Conversely,
having the editor mail new XML to the RPC is clunky. Th= is would
work better if Github were the master copy, which is how we do<= br>things in WGs.



THOUGHTS FOR FUTURE EXPERIMENTS
This wa= s valuable for me. In previous RFCs I have done it has been
quite hard t= o keep track of all the changes and this was a bigger
project. As noted = above, I found it very useful to be able to
individually see address eac= h change that was made in AUTH48.
However, this hybrid approach where th= e editor is the interface
between the RPC and Github is awkward.

= If we try this again -- and I think we should -- I think we should do
on= e of two things:

(a) Go full Github and use it the way WGs do.
(b= ) Limit the RPC's use of Github to seeing the editor comments on
=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 their changes.

From the document editor perspective,= (a) would be better, but it
seems like a big jump for the RPC, so we sh= ould probably look at (b).
I think the easiest way to do (b) would just = be to have two repos:

(a) the master repo which is used just to inte= grate the RPC's changes
(b) a second repo (the editor's fork) wh= ich is used to workshop
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the changes.

Then we c= ould treat the RPC's changes as PRs against the repo (as
I had origi= nally intended) but they wouldn't have to deal with the
noise from t= he editor/chair/AD discussion.

Ben also observed that because so muc= h of the value of the RPC-editor
Github interaction is the first set of = changes from the RPC (because
that's where most of the comments need= to be made) that we could
skip Github entirely for that and just do the= comments in Phabricator.
That seems like yet another tool people have t= o learn, though, so
I tend to think we should stick with Github for that= .
=C2=A0

-Ekr

=

On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 7:53 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
On F= eb 21, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
On the one hand, it w= as quite painful.

You=E2=80=99re th= e second person to say this, so I assume it=E2=80=99s true, but it=E2=80=99= s also surprising. =C2=A0 It would be helpful if (perhaps this has already = been done) there could be a writeup of what about the process of using gith= ub was painful. =C2=A0 We aren=E2=80=99t constrained to either choosing to = use github or do nothing to improve the process, and your point about auth4= 8 changes resonates for me too. =C2=A0 If we understood why Github didn=E2= =80=99t make things better, or what things about Github made things enough = worse that the things Github made better weren=E2=80=99t enough, that would= be helpful.

--0000000000003a905005827da3bc-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 09:54:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F032130E2B for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:54:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2d34B9eC-hSN for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x143.google.com (mail-it1-x143.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 159DE130F36 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x143.google.com with SMTP id i2so4369683ite.5 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:54:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=aD5XIfgrteQUiwnDUMJ+iHHGoYVVMHknIf8LcwqVg1E=; b=Rno2Pg8P4hhO2mHghCQaaXhZzxJkmFsDJgBsDO4f7/7LeufhVw6+SHL/VnxPI01tEg MOKYARANmcsERggPl2aQJ7rABDDA4vK7AlGMt62Ps0G6uypuPU35sSk7vias0eAUevRX m+xwbZeSgagnvi/XmJodhy94IvMHnSMB20frTrSVkJBOLYlCtotg6hdRQgPJJyy0wikT Mi5beSwBz3g/0PMjzQ99xaxjWY0PZpIdiI4P1gF3uroov9BJQpGS6kFZTtFUK/9CVJed VKQrBK5DxUnbfE1fABlXQZiILjq3dHKf13Cm++lO5uh5NpMg6ojiPEXviDygvUp3gkXM PaNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=aD5XIfgrteQUiwnDUMJ+iHHGoYVVMHknIf8LcwqVg1E=; b=Xz6RH7BgNQn3b7Nvv7ElK6iA3da7VvnHa+4/ZIp6Tkwd5jJJ/zWrF3e3ZUfsqqbaEF x+ZezbnsPqpUvZnwxWoSdLZKkhvK9doWzwR+Bvp+EIcEa9YDI4v17/ym6FNqQTYUaE4d MGOuaSXIDAQAQFQmtJJeC1TAIy/rdiovwbBbbjkd9zA4ESn8YZ9NIx0QhrR2gwZdVN1O 5/+fO6K7TX6xVuxXqmat8N3UJ8cFhuoeSfNTCoJacZLoiJjHUrkrPxgS1ZGvTiANurZb gvYsIUCUOT4SmlfMkMdw+V7m6NVWTGqiNuukmUFrRrSWn3/JJB2rX8QGAON9JtJouXQ8 FAjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubF2NMJH8PV+7qApBapSOnQ+/uS5nowjoRKVl3BetqVPbLba5KJ 6U0TKzmJukoZ4DeKtV5yzX4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYCeybkqwoPuWzeSDvG8HrgCbx+ueFtv01tiiFSHmvwIQk8A++OIgifi6bVeA/4APZuhMAPjw== X-Received: by 2002:a24:4161:: with SMTP id x94mr2812474ita.69.1550858058115; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926? ([2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t73sm973997itt.15.2019.02.22.09.54.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB9FCE25-C287-4482-A376-5FDFE593F687" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:54:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Mike Bishop , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:54:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DB9FCE25-C287-4482-A376-5FDFE593F687 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 21, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst = wrote: >=20 > On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote: >> Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of = the things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for = the RFC Editor. >=20 > I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I'm=20 > myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to push=20= > (sic) it on anybody else. >=20 I like git for source code work, but I am still having a hard time using = it for document work. The number of extra steps and the learning curve = can be just hard for people. Also, the difference between authoring and = editing are huge and pushing this on people that are not super familiar = with Git can be a show stopper. =20 The goal of this WG, IMHO, is to document how we can make this easy for = people so we can get MORE people involved in reading, working on, and = contributing to the work we do here in the IETF not less. If we make a = solution that drives people away, and our overall attrition rate = continues to go up, then we become less and less relevant over time.=20 Bret --Apple-Mail=_DB9FCE25-C287-4482-A376-5FDFE593F687 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <inline>

Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 21, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:

On = 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote:
Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a = private repo). One of the things we'll need to work out is to what = extent that's feasible for the RFC Editor.

I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. = Also, I'm
myself still struggling with git and github, so = I don't want to push
(sic) it on anybody else.


I like git for source code work, but I am still = having a hard time using it for document work. The number of extra steps = and the learning curve can be just hard for people.  Also, the = difference between authoring and editing are huge and pushing this on = people that are not super familiar with Git can be a show stopper. =  

The goal of this WG, IMHO, is = to document how we can make this easy for people so we can get MORE = people involved in reading, working on, and contributing to the work we = do here in the IETF not less.  If we make a solution that drives = people away, and our overall attrition rate continues to go up, then we = become less and less relevant over time. 

Bret


= --Apple-Mail=_DB9FCE25-C287-4482-A376-5FDFE593F687-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 09:56:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B0A130F3E for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:56:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9220gJlRW5Fc for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45D7E130F36 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id v10so2434819iop.4 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:56:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZxtIPOmPfxvbjVtrDgzg22aapitsoC8PWjGOEwS6QsM=; b=iXb8qZn+mlSswimDr/y9h09cBKIaKQMXaxdjZGnJ/d17Ys0tLp+vFEMGmgYhcJzz37 Ofd37jr6n+zjhZaKMd8HD0657qPFuev1gMwMI/4X9RXYR25JYrfCNkFJ+OqyrIFdK1i4 sPW2rg0wokuueEI5JibeWELSGr0OPbnQT8HG+9Vd/5M2qBsxJ3FNzCCVP3roRqPVQCCy eQ/4PvYYxe2Cx+2IHG3kbk/8ss00lRAT8gt6myGzxITQ9DYWNDc6H3/g+sAXWJH7DaP+ zS2MJMn0BPW8O15r8Wqghx3mphU2Bz4nFjfhjtuIEyvp/1cgNCYWVzSKoA7WSAnpYtwY 2+/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZxtIPOmPfxvbjVtrDgzg22aapitsoC8PWjGOEwS6QsM=; b=cuquUppzu5Qd3U6Irgb+kO7BDKaNMAoJiFsJaEs8HTllCEGgBPyp7ytpPVcE6i/Vxc ST/8wSfu39oe5mAnh+u5PV45jvvodi8FgAGoMFBGZpBAMr8CGzcVMiaIPjezd2prEvEP Wm8kxIMNubQ8NhcHzFjk8O68IOEQKknIxx5J6qGSUuJWlWdD8gRtSMEmGwjx7gCql1cI LGznRACC8YUEhAnoaYd3t5cOuV9sYviR7ZnT85hEQhInADUjS7z0bnrZZMe/V2wJZ/0J XhdPG2Ni/74wgwa8mUVy88Yu0+HtqFjV4YMyqQUlbdtOuxYs5prPE6J87QZR2BAMq++U WPBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYYPROvGcDwDw+ng07hJnc4X1aBEzjWXfq3WFZn3HJ5BbVNBFzJ EK2ayfpyhbs2HYuN+wahogeYgxYF X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbKL0OzyiHASeOsVgHuIT5xtIfO4IQTrHEQmRRaIWZ38ICSqo5rrhXAhNDl6DZY0hOOZQdDrA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9b01:: with SMTP id y1mr2849828ion.167.1550858205394; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926? ([2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c31sm975364itd.25.2019.02.22.09.56.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:56:44 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0CEB1EC0-C5DF-41C0-8A1B-C6BFA77CD400" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:56:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:56:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0CEB1EC0-C5DF-41C0-8A1B-C6BFA77CD400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 21, 2019, at 8:03 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > The RFC Editor (more specifically the production center) already = conducted an experiment in using github in conjunction with the editing = process. While I will leave it to Heather to provide details, the = simple result was that it turned out to be VERY painful. >=20 > Please do not assume that using github / git for that part of the = process is a trivial or easy step for us to take. For other SDOs that I work with, that use Git, I can attest to this and = doing editorial work via Git can just be a show stopper for many. Bret=20= --Apple-Mail=_0CEB1EC0-C5DF-41C0-8A1B-C6BFA77CD400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <inline>
Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 21, 2019, at 8:03 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:

The RFC Editor (more = specifically the production center) already conducted an experiment in = using github in conjunction with the editing process.  While I will = leave it to Heather to provide details, the simple result was that it = turned out to be VERY painful.

Please do not assume that using github / git for that part of = the process is a trivial or easy step for us to take.

For = other SDOs that I work with, that use Git, I can attest to this and = doing editorial work via Git can just be a show stopper for = many.

Bret 
= --Apple-Mail=_0CEB1EC0-C5DF-41C0-8A1B-C6BFA77CD400-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 09:58:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFCB130F43 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:58:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDh6IQtM7txC for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D7AD130F3E for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161271C55DD; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:57:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NRkyjWgFAgrX; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.198.42.38] (c-71-231-216-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.231.216.10]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B5EC1C5E64; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:57:45 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Flanagan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_82A68A3A-3BF7-40BA-A263-9DA1C4EAB065" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 09:57:58 -0800 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> To: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:58:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_82A68A3A-3BF7-40BA-A263-9DA1C4EAB065 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > On Feb 21, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: >> On the one hand, it was quite painful. >=20 > You=E2=80=99re the second person to say this, so I assume it=E2=80=99s = true, but it=E2=80=99s also surprising. It would be helpful if = (perhaps this has already been done) there could be a writeup of what = about the process of using github was painful. We aren=E2=80=99t = constrained to either choosing to use github or do nothing to improve = the process, and your point about auth48 changes resonates for me too. = If we understood why Github didn=E2=80=99t make things better, or what = things about Github made things enough worse that the things Github made = better weren=E2=80=99t enough, that would be helpful. >=20 > _ ekr has posted his impressions of the GitHub experiment with the RFC = Editor, which I=E2=80=99ve seen and is useful feedback. =46rom the point = of view of the editors, however, the experience of what worked and what = didn=E2=80=99t was somewhat different. We posted our feedback to the = IESG and the tls-chairs list. One other point - we need to continue this conversation about how to = improve AUTH48 for the authors. In much the same way that when I first = started, the majority of input I received was that the format was the = biggest pain point that needed attention, what I=E2=80=99m hearing now = is that AUTH48 is the next big area to target. While I'm not ready to = revive the experiment given where things stand with the format work = (more on that in the next few weeks) this is definitely something that = I=E2=80=99m hearing as both urgent and important. -Heather =E2=80=94 Hi all, This is the consolidated feedback from the RFC Editor regarding the = experiment in using GitHub to process the TLS 1.3 document. Please note = that this feedback focuses entirely on the GitHub experience; all = comments regarding editorial changes are off topic. Also, the markdown = conversation (i.e., editing in markdown, choosing a particular flavor of = markdown) is also outside the scope of the experiment and this feedback. tl;dr GitHub did not improve anything for the RFC Editor, and seemed to = replicate and over-complicate the AUTH48 process where the authors and = the RPC exchange updated XML files. What Went Well: * The author seemed happier with the interactions with the RFC Editor. * It was easy for the RFC Editor to download a copy of the revised XML = files. What Was Challenging: * This was not a good choice of documents to do an experiment with; the = length, criticality, and number of early questions that had to be held = until AUTH48 made the overall experience more complicated than it would = have been otherwise (from the RFC Editor's perspective). In particular, = typically a set of questions would be sent during AUTH state (earlier in = the process); for this document, all questions were held for AUTH48 = state, and this added to the perceived excessive number of initial = changes. * While the discrete list in GitHub of each change seemed to make the = review easier for the author, it proved to be significantly more = difficult for the RPC editor. Rather than have the changes all in one = place, this required a lot of clicking to each individual change to = review the comments. It was very time consuming. * Being on the "Watch" list resulted in a great deal of noise that the = RPC editor had to work through. It was difficult to determine if = comments and proposed changes were being directed to the RFC Editor or = to the author. * The RPC editor's AQs (Author Query) are often truncated in GitHub, = which introduced some confusion on both the part of the author and the = RPC editor. * In a document that has a large number of AQs (as this one did), the = GitHub UI will hide the majority of those questions, along with some of = the comments from authors and other reviewers (e.g., "120 hidden = conversations"); one has to manually "unhide" them, 20 at a time. This = process needs to be repeated every time you leave/return to that page. * There was definitely confusion about how the RPC editors actually edit = a document reflected in a request to receive intermediate diff files = that show one type of change (header changes only, whitespace changes = only, editorial changes only, etc). That is not how documents are = edited, and trying to do that would definitely increase the level or = work required on the part of the RPC editor. * "Reflowed" text within the XML file is a common result of making = editorial changes or inserting questions into the XML file. Typically, = this has not been a concern for authors or the RPC, as such changes = aren't reflected in the publication output, and the only diffs reviewed = are text file vs. text file. In the case of this document, when = reviewing XML diffs generated by GitHub, this introduced a number of = changes that were noise. In the future, one way to avoid this would be = careful editing of the source file to avoid reflowing the text or = inserting comments mid-paragraph; however that seems like a lot of work = for little return given the purpose behind the XML file. (As an aside to = this one, in the future, improved XML diffing might not display changes = to reflowed text in the XML -- the xmldiff tool is under development as = part of the format work.) Proposed Changes to the next stage of the GitHub Experiment (JSEP draft) Full detail of the process is here: = https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/wiki/doku.php?id=3Dgithub_auth48_experiment= = * change to step 5 - rather than having the RFC Editor subscribe to all = notifications, have the author(s) add an @mention when the RFC Editor = needs to do something. (Assuming this feature will work if the account = is not actually watching the repository.) * change to step 10- rather than the RFC Editor emailing the link to the = latest XML file to the author, the RPC editor will submit it directly to = GitHub. --Apple-Mail=_82A68A3A-3BF7-40BA-A263-9DA1C4EAB065 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> = wrote:

On Feb 21, 2019, at = 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
On the one hand, it was quite = painful.

You=E2=80=99re the second person to say this, so I assume = it=E2=80=99s true, but it=E2=80=99s also surprising.   It would be = helpful if (perhaps this has already been done) there could be a writeup = of what about the process of using github was painful.   We = aren=E2=80=99t constrained to either choosing to use github or do = nothing to improve the process, and your point about auth48 changes = resonates for me too.   If we understood why Github didn=E2=80=99t = make things better, or what things about Github made things enough worse = that the things Github made better weren=E2=80=99t enough, that would be = helpful.

_



ekr has = posted his impressions of the GitHub experiment with the RFC Editor, = which I=E2=80=99ve seen and is useful feedback. =46rom the point of view = of the editors, however, the experience of what worked and what didn=E2=80= =99t was somewhat different. We posted our feedback to the IESG and the = tls-chairs list.

One other point - = we need to continue this conversation about how to improve AUTH48 for = the authors. In much the same way that when I first started, the = majority of input I received was that the format was the biggest pain = point that needed attention, what I=E2=80=99m hearing now is that AUTH48 = is the next big area to target. While I'm not ready to revive the = experiment given where things stand with the format work (more on that = in the next few weeks) this is definitely something that I=E2=80=99m = hearing as both urgent and important.

-Heather

=E2=80=94
Hi all,

This is the consolidated feedback from the RFC Editor = regarding the experiment in using GitHub to process the TLS 1.3 = document. Please note that this feedback focuses entirely on the GitHub = experience; all comments regarding editorial changes are off topic. = Also, the markdown conversation (i.e., editing in markdown, choosing a = particular flavor of markdown) is also outside the scope of the = experiment and this feedback.

tl;dr
GitHub did not improve anything for the RFC Editor, and = seemed to replicate and over-complicate the AUTH48 process where the = authors and the RPC exchange updated XML files.


What Went Well:
* The author = seemed happier with the interactions with the RFC Editor.

* It was easy for the RFC Editor to download a = copy of the revised XML files.


What Was Challenging:
* This was not a good = choice of documents to do an experiment with; the length, criticality, = and number of early questions that had to be held until AUTH48 made the = overall experience more complicated than it would have been otherwise = (from the RFC Editor's perspective). In particular, typically a set of = questions would be sent during AUTH state (earlier in the process); for = this document, all questions were held for AUTH48 state, and this added = to the perceived excessive number of initial changes.

* While the discrete list in GitHub of each change seemed to = make the review easier for the author, it proved to be significantly = more difficult for the RPC editor. Rather than have the changes all in = one place, this required a lot of clicking to each individual change to = review the comments. It was very time consuming.

* Being on the "Watch" list resulted in a great deal of noise = that the RPC editor had to work through. It was difficult to determine = if comments and proposed changes were being directed to the RFC Editor = or to the author.

* The RPC editor's AQs = (Author Query) are often truncated in GitHub, which introduced some = confusion on both the part of the author and the RPC editor.

* In a document that has a large number of AQs = (as this one did), the GitHub UI will hide the majority of those = questions, along with some of the comments from authors and other = reviewers (e.g., "120 hidden conversations"); one has to manually = "unhide" them, 20 at a time. This process needs to be repeated every = time you leave/return to that page.

* There = was definitely confusion about how the RPC editors actually edit a = document reflected in a request to receive intermediate diff files that = show one type of change (header changes only, whitespace changes only, = editorial changes only, etc). That is not how documents are edited, and = trying to do that would definitely increase the level or work required = on the part of the RPC editor.

* "Reflowed" = text within the XML file is a common result of making editorial changes = or inserting questions into the XML file. Typically, this has not been a = concern for authors or the RPC, as such changes aren't reflected in the = publication output, and the only diffs reviewed are text file vs. text = file. In the case of this document, when reviewing XML diffs generated = by GitHub, this introduced a number of changes that were noise. In the = future, one way to avoid this would be careful editing of the source = file to avoid reflowing the text or inserting comments mid-paragraph; = however that seems like a lot of work for little return given the = purpose behind the XML file. (As an aside to this one, in the future, = improved XML diffing might not display changes to reflowed text in the = XML -- the xmldiff tool is under development as part of the format = work.)


Proposed Changes to = the next stage of the GitHub Experiment (JSEP draft)
Full = detail of the process is here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/wiki/doku.php?id=3Dgithub_auth48= _experiment
* change to step 5 - rather than having = the RFC Editor subscribe to all notifications, have the author(s) add an = @mention when the RFC Editor needs to do something. (Assuming this = feature will work if the account is not actually watching the = repository.)

* change to step 10- rather = than the RFC Editor emailing the link to the latest XML file to the = author, the RPC editor will submit it directly to GitHub.

= --Apple-Mail=_82A68A3A-3BF7-40BA-A263-9DA1C4EAB065-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 10:33:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC3912870E for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:33:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CL8jnXNi77F7 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07F591279E6 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id g80so2455431ljg.6 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:33:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CkNYe9bSXJKGFNXiaUR8zxP3tLxiI01E950YL6bIWI4=; b=mg4YIVHXEtnZz0HW0hf9ncYI2yG98HhIRfrQrhOBKa0E/f9nU+j7Ey6m9705LbRnbB 4YQb8menKWE4u9VV+VKSM/cloNJ0rrcequ5vM0r3PpCFi8XHxWr3nSH3S8DgYCBjkGGf 0dq76UkQpKLLfl873OHxlfGWfkgwCoyQf5ofe5iBH3qtRvVMqoELWDQ8TBYNM3b3Wyra OnVzPWMpJKhdHSxUm/IB5+aZwVNrzhPAvYmX2E0huhmpCPdfgM6aFpFQTg5mZZorUU5R L8VvOLsSt5Pk6cDt0PeJB7whslvcTeAZW7BflNJ/t1Sh7Io7Zx+/uHMJInnp7zmAlbmp b3RA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CkNYe9bSXJKGFNXiaUR8zxP3tLxiI01E950YL6bIWI4=; b=sP0gs826cuqOyjTfu0XJCJn9OxOVhSgNT6S8BTF4oDZDcTaRvi/VbAl09vrXZ/w2wp XWVwW1cmGrZyIwrcmChhSB3pANfcfdSS2ySbaOXUd4cV/Y9z00aI6T7ZsEl5cIT4JW+f Uz3iD2qMsTZ1l1602d4o2dNXZtVllvLWfs0i3bU+RSmImhMfgtO5PdsLDRCqmHcoGzhu qXNOsiOWFmlZY1FtBQC/D/FDxxjaEZ5vdxWRFJbRLVaghy08lzFbh0CU/8crKAHrbjlQ j8ReOgZiDHdLbL3zp96J1FFssf93ShN/n2fyFKGlN91uE3iRyq9CTJ+iiS49NIXfNQFA voBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubOLA7eQPX4P5IGPDe7uChl+YPHhSnOeX0PSl8YMEY+MvBJL7V8 yX3/5msbVHrrH2kAy+cBZLprH9t2TDrUxUgQx0AC4Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaNVhX6FQ8LDpg/r5hUoaNAZhjCNmuxRoph6f/9Yt4Nwu0NbryRDRSWMamrSvnh8tYGDdIdYa6HHfymC96ggZs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3c19:: with SMTP id j25mr3080642lja.72.1550860401781; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:33:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:32:42 -0800 Message-ID: To: Bret Jordan Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , Mike Bishop Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000584c2005827fd3d7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:33:28 -0000 --000000000000584c2005827fd3d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 9:55 AM Bret Jordan wrote: > > > Thanks, > Bret > PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 > "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that > can not be unscrambled is an egg." > > On Feb 21, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst > wrote: > > On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike Bishop wrote: > > Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of the > things we'll need to work out is to what extent that's feasible for the R= FC > Editor. > > > I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also, I'm > myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't want to push > (sic) it on anybody else. > > > I like git for source code work, but I am still having a hard time using > it for document work. The number of extra steps and the learning curve ca= n > be just hard for people. Also, the difference between authoring and > editing are huge and pushing this on people that are not super familiar > with Git can be a show stopper. > > The goal of this WG, IMHO, is to document how we can make this easy for > people so we can get MORE people involved in reading, working on, and > contributing to the work we do here in the IETF not less. If we make a > solution that drives people away, and our overall attrition rate continue= s > to go up, then we become less and less relevant over time. > No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the existing workflows that people are already using and have already determined to be convenient for their use cases. You may think that that's less convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT WG. -Ekr > Bret > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000584c2005827fd3d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 9:55 AM Bret = Jordan <jordan.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<inline>

Thanks,
Bret
<= span style=3D"font-size:11px">PGP Fingerprint:=C2=A063B= 4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 =C2=A0F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050
"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, howe= ver, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."


On 2019/02/22 07:06, Mike = Bishop wrote:
Ideally, I'd see AUTH48 as a= PR (perhaps from a private repo). One of the things we'll need to work= out is to what extent that's feasible for the RFC Editor.

I'm of course not in any way speaking for the RFC Editor. Also,= I'm
myself still struggling with git and github, so I don't wa= nt to push
(sic) it on anybody else.


I like git for source code work, but I am still having a = hard time using it for document work. The number of extra steps and the lea= rning curve can be just hard for people.=C2=A0 Also, the difference between= authoring and editing are huge and pushing this on people that are not sup= er familiar with Git can be a show stopper. =C2=A0

The goal of this WG, IMHO, is to document how we can make this easy for pe= ople so we can get MORE people involved in reading, working on, and contrib= uting to the work we do here in the IETF not less.=C2=A0 If we make a solut= ion that drives people away, and our overall attrition rate continues to go= up, then we become less and less relevant over time.=C2=A0

No, I don't think so. The goal= of this WG is to streamline the existing workflows that people are already= using and have already determined to be convenient for their use cases. Yo= u may think that that's less convenient, but that's not really a di= scussion for the GIT WG.

-Ekr




Bret


_________= ______________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--000000000000584c2005827fd3d7-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 10:49:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28C2130EBA for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:49:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdgoCEjQYKQd for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x131.google.com (mail-it1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47199130F47 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x131.google.com with SMTP id i2so4634200ite.5 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:49:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=8qYwEgAypUsjtitPTyuK3PpmKW+NDgl+sssDpUwNQTY=; b=VbeKnF7omFJvujje2sPKCulTBRML6LO1sQN7fKtItYLsn//CEAygQ2E0doLZ4MbvGw sodrA+j28NrRh0lvmEfKc42eze0IQKyVW0JxNNXv0RfYT9KkbUvYJv5uodrkTXwXaB2z wDVILxIJ9WJNnoVHVLb7TPtnTGq0MaLf/lMPsnVNMvz5M7sSrqHFpYrgoCYuS3JXmtCo k9eYxvBy7lSzHLbPHcdkyOd3nwQTAWsY2uUqVDEEV0+Zjd9GVzZ7G1o3+NoBGd5xNAyF m3aN54zOfxmiIzA/XaM8u4PfJssXoo7PZKiOHBGcaoXrZr2zBZhkohRsrCxp1HrwNkxW +f3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=8qYwEgAypUsjtitPTyuK3PpmKW+NDgl+sssDpUwNQTY=; b=VXisosT/3PNlkKPCSNgxvvg/N3lNW21bsjkYpEJmkOjZ9vXJY7gqcKtT6Qy2J1YQaP 9TzgLLv0CsxUrYpKbzX9Qdg+uVBCKdYTiTBkjzthi5RNoS94c8mTWWU6Bd3g/ggWibh2 0gN+Q3YOxfh8MYh6u/rp4L5jiX0vhWrp/KXwBso7RB+cRiUy3ccMmTDkn06EhIUr0ntL HLNnPhknUQMG4Prr2kyjrajdmFJqAhqsp+DhinHc7QJ6tY7choinFiznxPOdhjc8BxaR zsyEHxB56DUQaU7Jv9GYkl8VxLyg3szz9Fub2Fgd4Y5B0RxG5T4b/2TZov9wK9bbgqk/ KWXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZuqtqW1PSYYroEnyS6ywxO+/U+AffMjsfAQBEbgTGJ0inQSNAU HqFC4IV2JSa8yHIN2eYxDttr+dus X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ibd9RgzUNtcKea5lGxZgT+l5Jjgxe66Bru2fbGDRYj8PX9VbKRaitto8aB7wk9e3CUxKo8k5g== X-Received: by 2002:a24:2b4c:: with SMTP id h73mr3380953ita.159.1550861393146; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926? ([2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f26sm824711ioh.1.2019.02.22.10.49.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:49:52 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4C54C33D-77AC-4C51-A56A-81E116DADBCA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:49:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , Mike Bishop To: Eric Rescorla References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:49:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4C54C33D-77AC-4C51-A56A-81E116DADBCA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > I like git for source code work, but I am still having a hard time = using it for document work. The number of extra steps and the learning = curve can be just hard for people. Also, the difference between = authoring and editing are huge and pushing this on people that are not = super familiar with Git can be a show stopper. =20 >=20 > The goal of this WG, IMHO, is to document how we can make this easy = for people so we can get MORE people involved in reading, working on, = and contributing to the work we do here in the IETF not less. If we = make a solution that drives people away, and our overall attrition rate = continues to go up, then we become less and less relevant over time.=20 >=20 > No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the = existing workflows that people are already using and have already = determined to be convenient for their use cases. You may think that = that's less convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT = WG. >=20 So we should not be looking at the collateral damage that sanctioning = this work might bring? Further, we should not be looking at how to make = things easier and better for the IETF community at large? =20 Keep in mind I am not against using Git or Github for SDO work. I = mentioned that in the meeting in Bangkok. What I want to help ensure is = that we do this in such a way that it makes things easier for people and = does not attribute to more attrition. =20 Bret --Apple-Mail=_4C54C33D-77AC-4C51-A56A-81E116DADBCA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

I = like git for source code work, but I am still having a hard time using = it for document work. The number of extra steps and the learning curve = can be just hard for people.  Also, the difference between = authoring and editing are huge and pushing this on people that are not = super familiar with Git can be a show stopper.  

The goal of this WG, = IMHO, is to document how we can make this easy for people so we can get = MORE people involved in reading, working on, and contributing to the = work we do here in the IETF not less.  If we make a solution that = drives people away, and our overall attrition rate continues to go up, = then we become less and less relevant over = time. 

No, I don't think so. The goal of this = WG is to streamline the existing workflows that people are already using = and have already determined to be convenient for their use cases. You = may think that that's less convenient, but that's not really a = discussion for the GIT WG.


So = we should not be looking at the collateral damage that sanctioning this = work might bring?  Further, we should not be looking at how to make = things easier and better for the IETF community at large? =   

Keep in mind I am not = against using Git or Github for SDO work.  I mentioned that in the = meeting in Bangkok.  What I want to help ensure is that we do this = in such a way that it makes things easier for people and does not = attribute to more attrition.  

Bret

= --Apple-Mail=_4C54C33D-77AC-4C51-A56A-81E116DADBCA-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 10:52:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157C2130F56 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:52:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WdN1oECoiXg6 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A451C130F4F for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445gS51kHKzZvvr; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:52:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1550861525; bh=ERdOdr/DrlLpy1spt/e2bwtSxV65DoT/4DjD1Z+gb+I=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=IIn39X4gY3HpdRhpuh/6ORoHKD1Q4LN5zGbW2VUPv3nkoD6np241RFjnuto/TJAwY UTl08YRqjWL733QeM74OuiRF86Z7QN2QmxCukUWW9TplE7WvuqVrujjEBjXp4AXZFA JM71B+HST4NrBsfz/ARyUMSTETgIS2N7vIDtnY3Q= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445gS45GZKzZvvp; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:52:04 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <57c33296-24e7-15aa-1aaf-6ac82604cf1d@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:52:03 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:52:07 -0000 Trimmed and top posted. My understanding of the goal ws to define a set of precedure for working groups that wanted to use github as part of the IETF. As such, those proedures need to work for the entire working group, not just for the people in the working group who live and breath github. It is, as I understand it, about enabling another way for the IEtF to work well. Yours, Joel On 2/22/19 1:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: ... > > > No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the existing > workflows that people are already using and have already determined to > be convenient for their use cases. You may think that that's less > convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT WG. > > -Ekr From nobody Fri Feb 22 10:58:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB2F130F65 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4lbDQ9t3RZ2q for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7CC4130EBA for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id v10so2591232iop.4 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:58:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZIuHZxE0zpU6e5n8gPJ8v1rfKaG2VLbBuqVjP0LLk/I=; b=s7VrLUSAHOmjTn0pOS2+jJlOmXVX/QX+t6mU5Q+bX4rvUbJN123RgmuwPRLFo8GUw1 Q6U5OtXoHS4LJh+HL+aJLVypnHg3ww0dYwD+na8UNy0ZwTc7deEK+a7y3OiwOqMeYMsY pOWoZseGIFfvdPSM1yrl7wXeoz+/DHEjel4vsVCnHRdTJjE55tLQCmjP60EzAP5Gs7DE skpX0ISv4v87J8K4gPnmWtUtmjX01zEosP52tvHrlu7FqkZmKgFNiE55Sda3lQukFkJg yQuY+EsvjedL45REa0lJg0PTgr9IPN+TALu3Rn02lifUoxMdyYfOfNLE7z5dgFzguSHa IRyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZIuHZxE0zpU6e5n8gPJ8v1rfKaG2VLbBuqVjP0LLk/I=; b=RcXiDsxZAVPKaczTxKElrbrBqPP2uZbGsLfjHljYnfIK9TSjjNGRSXNjobIexeZlhE 2pffaK206DRWGHOjjNCP2xa3h2/THYYqcb3uL8GlCYKfm7Xam+DJhXP+yUZKQ/Mn3TwG sA1hZJ+eR/Yrh2bI1sbAOIxO7/WtiOvVqCGclGBivRBuSGvR7EMI+BM/UF0vUrLqBeNK NH7Tuzreo+4HlmV/BLOZ9XpWPXO3TApPBzlj826+TJmgLSBDIPTCFr1cEQIg9RquojJt Pe0dWHcIZhLrINcagQdd03KAnazi5Ye86VVLCm33/Fb13ZxCqyNnVz/UQBs1PnuvARAh FqSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZ8drPm0PRLnYASpDKrrkF1FCgSa0fTH0cdh7zSp286iEE40fDM 8hCJxgMMDFD9vCL66hc5+tWNI9Qb X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZNIXwy03nbV8pUgMN+K5cjYpPCR4JfEXbJqM8+BH0JdDlaaFI0Z7atK+mIhvgL92JOjc3shA== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6b0e:: with SMTP id g14mr3384503ioc.120.1550861911731; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926? ([2605:a601:a028:986:6028:24c8:5b00:c926]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f26sm834757ioh.1.2019.02.22.10.58.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:58:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <96C74E5A-A9A8-4A93-BE42-3A21DB623DBA@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CBDE7DD5-EB6C-48DA-A7C8-1D8C8E2DF59C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:58:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: <57c33296-24e7-15aa-1aaf-6ac82604cf1d@joelhalpern.com> Cc: Eric Rescorla , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <57c33296-24e7-15aa-1aaf-6ac82604cf1d@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:58:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CBDE7DD5-EB6C-48DA-A7C8-1D8C8E2DF59C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I fully agree Joel. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:52 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Trimmed and top posted. >=20 > My understanding of the goal ws to define a set of precedure for = working groups that wanted to use github as part of the IETF. >=20 > As such, those proedures need to work for the entire working group, = not just for the people in the working group who live and breath github. >=20 > It is, as I understand it, about enabling another way for the IEtF to = work well. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 2/22/19 1:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > .... >> No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the = existing workflows that people are already using and have already = determined to be convenient for their use cases. You may think that = that's less convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT = WG. >> -Ekr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_CBDE7DD5-EB6C-48DA-A7C8-1D8C8E2DF59C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I = fully agree Joel.


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:52 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:

Trimmed and top posted.

My = understanding of the goal ws to define a set of precedure for working = groups that wanted to use github as part of the IETF.

As such, those proedures need to work for the entire working = group, not just for the people in the working group who live and breath = github.

It is, as I understand it, about = enabling another way for the IEtF to work well.

Yours,
Joel

On = 2/22/19 1:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
....
No, I don't think so. = The goal of this WG is to streamline the existing workflows that people = are already using and have already determined to be convenient for their = use cases. You may think that that's less convenient, but that's not = really a discussion for the GIT WG.
-Ekr

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-github@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github

= --Apple-Mail=_CBDE7DD5-EB6C-48DA-A7C8-1D8C8E2DF59C-- From nobody Fri Feb 22 12:28:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785D1130E74 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:28:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LK4MfzBLTvDv for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9B7E130E5F for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:28:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1MKSgBZ005414; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:28:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445jbZ39Ppz1Bp8; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:28:42 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:28:41 +0100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572560119.310531-63049c08c83143a2fe0679a2296357f0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <637EC631-64E0-4E36-B138-98BF79E52DD0@tzi.org> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> To: Bret Jordan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:28:56 -0000 On Feb 22, 2019, at 18:56, Bret Jordan wrote: >=20 > For other SDOs that I work with, that use Git, I can attest to this = and doing editorial work via Git can just be a show stopper for many. Maybe that=E2=80=99s not a bug, but a feature. More seriously speaking, we need to be more inclusive than that. (Please also note that using RFCXML as our primary submit format is a = much taller =E2=80=9Cyou have to be this tall to ride=E2=80=9D than = requiring Git would be.) It is almost always a bad idea to force tools on someone. (It is, however, often beneficial for both parties when the more = experienced one exerts heavy nudging.) I would expect that a process that would have the RPC use Git would = still provide a =E2=80=9Cmanual=E2=80=9D interface like the one that we = use now. Participating in the Git-based process as an author would be = an option that is more natural to take for the repeat author than = required of everybody. As Ekr noted, exposing editing steps in = individual commits can be highly useful =E2=80=94 both to the authors = and to chairs/shepherds/ADs/WG members watching the process. (This = would be a model where the RPC =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D the document = during AUTH48 and the authors are the reviewers and occasional PR = submitters.) (I=E2=80=99m using =E2=80=9Cauthor=E2=80=9D here to distinguish that = role from the =E2=80=9Ceditor=E2=80=9D at the RPC side; we have the = strange habit of calling authors =E2=80=9Ceditors=E2=80=9D in the IETF, = which I=E2=80=99m not trying to bring up for discussion here.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 22 12:53:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44E4130E5F for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQEdC92xqSnh for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90F56130E5E for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CCD1C5B4A; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kX1506wBBkL; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.198.42.38] (c-71-231-216-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.231.216.10]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83A6D1C55DD; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:26 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Flanagan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:53:39 -0800 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <637EC631-64E0-4E36-B138-98BF79E52DD0@tzi.org> To: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <637EC631-64E0-4E36-B138-98BF79E52DD0@tzi.org> Message-Id: <001129D8-96F5-44A5-937E-51E677A57196@rfc-editor.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:53:43 -0000 > On Feb 22, 2019, at 12:28 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Feb 22, 2019, at 18:56, Bret Jordan wrote: >>=20 >> For other SDOs that I work with, that use Git, I can attest to this = and doing editorial work via Git can just be a show stopper for many. >=20 > >=20 > Maybe that=E2=80=99s not a bug, but a feature. >=20 > >=20 > More seriously speaking, we need to be more inclusive than that. > (Please also note that using RFCXML as our primary submit format is a = much taller =E2=80=9Cyou have to be this tall to ride=E2=80=9D than = requiring Git would be.) While a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison, the point is accurate. = We (the RFC Editor and the community) are depending on community = authoring tools and the id2xml tool to make this easier. >=20 > It is almost always a bad idea to force tools on someone. > (It is, however, often beneficial for both parties when the more = experienced one exerts heavy nudging.) >=20 > I would expect that a process that would have the RPC use Git would = still provide a =E2=80=9Cmanual=E2=80=9D interface like the one that we = use now. Participating in the Git-based process as an author would be = an option that is more natural to take for the repeat author than = required of everybody. As Ekr noted, exposing editing steps in = individual commits can be highly useful =E2=80=94 both to the authors = and to chairs/shepherds/ADs/WG members watching the process. (This = would be a model where the RPC =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D the document = during AUTH48 and the authors are the reviewers and occasional PR = submitters.) Keep in mind that the more interfaces that the RPC has to maintain, the = more challenging our work becomes, and the more costly in terms of time = and resources to do it. It raises the level of training required to = bring on new editorial staff, something that is already a known = challenge given the tools and editing style the community requires. It = potentially requires jumping from one style to another depending on the = preference of one author to the next.=20 All that said, this isn=E2=80=99t a =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D but it is a = =E2=80=9Ccosts need to be considered.=E2=80=9D Is the community ready to = pay in time/money to develop tools, and/or pay in time/money to keep the = rate of publication what it is today (or allow for slower, require = faster, and so on)? >=20 > (I=E2=80=99m using =E2=80=9Cauthor=E2=80=9D here to distinguish that = role from the =E2=80=9Ceditor=E2=80=9D at the RPC side; we have the = strange habit of calling authors =E2=80=9Ceditors=E2=80=9D in the IETF, = which I=E2=80=99m not trying to bring up for discussion here.) (Also not opening up the discussion, but in case it helps: You could = refer to the RPC editors as copyeditors. It=E2=80=99s more accurate than = the generic editor term.) -Heather= From nobody Fri Feb 22 16:33:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97CB130E9A for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XcT_jsepj0h for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x443.google.com (mail-pf1-x443.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::443]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4EA9130E85 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x443.google.com with SMTP id n22so1833884pfa.3 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:33:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ew9JkxlZnyBum6mJNfHTZ/eB5QkKDBUo/3wgYF8F4QI=; b=iDgJBT/jnFbwlDrHeu+lBA6V5yc4nOwz1Jn6tBxB+SWhYchrK2+fkM9THFPtk5U/h3 WCrgoF+MB1Nu07C3xJUbAq3d+BptX8Zw/20dLHgBNZy2WxXBNnnFeLpCpHxqx9GldNg+ AQU0APu7DoBF1ghv9VhAiKezYnSMsF6gfKOPaQYsFIShP8BgmdOtBerXTfs3179TfpVJ Y1iUPWi3aX9HhqkYZy5LYjxQeOA/r/blmAop2T3nIHbZu59y8ryvtabt88f/QIGP2m89 Yi3M1cfqcggecoRtLrWcwzqOVOOgGFerQKq60ZIZc0grSSVTmlJIqMzqxmnA7F+IG3V+ 9ztw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ew9JkxlZnyBum6mJNfHTZ/eB5QkKDBUo/3wgYF8F4QI=; b=CNpDMtVB1cSZ/LftDnNRB6d4crRuRi8ouNnucvSnAhQUL9S/Yc0Y1WBZ93HfZck3wJ n852UUcYlh94K8nQC0L38Cvtju3tYYItzUsyGYLYQCHj72WK19aX8FDHJwSS+qSXgb/q w8YoO+litopzsAMy9dEiepCvnQpq2WWMaptP6n6g8DLy5C6PB4uuCNCLYpEPRebSljGx CsbTxsbenw86WyjM02Z5U4Wv+9s+rmevXsVbfiyZg98jdjAYmNS8DynhSHLV1AtIAH5i OQXsvkSBd33mEknvzocnHISqQmt6qsSGoPyt1lp4J5efKNr4uCQkCVxHyNcy+NuVSWv2 Js4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYNnJEgT+j6X1XnP62iRGlmsIrpN59y8mCdQ64uH37n+9LBHWMd LAJ8SpxZ06Aq6SEkF62ipEUlfBNO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYbrwFBX4e1/hwKvwfNHadQlmAz8kqPPSkg5wWqRdqjS+LAwKc7PGurM+cllS6sJ3mUDKhpFQ== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:82d7:: with SMTP id f23mr7015246pfn.114.1550882022553; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.79.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b80sm3963465pfc.20.2019.02.22.16.33.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:33:41 -0800 (PST) To: Carsten Bormann , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <428749ad-9e03-56cf-f8c6-1d3d06d0bfb2@gmail.com> <85e6e90e-7928-4495-3d54-6b1fedd82e28@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <06E627BC-A96A-4A1C-BB0A-51CC64B1CBD8@tzi.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9201de24-df27-baa9-c291-f6c89bb8d451@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 13:33:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <06E627BC-A96A-4A1C-BB0A-51CC64B1CBD8@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 00:33:46 -0000 On 2019-02-22 18:51, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Feb 22, 2019, at 04:06, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> >>>> But compared to the OLD-NEW style of talking about diffs, pull reque= sts >>>> are way more precise, >>> >>> Really? I absolutely don't understand that assertion. >> >> The OLD-NEW style requires a description of location/context in natura= l=20 >> language. That's imprecise. Also, to create it from an actual document= =20 >> and to apply it to an actual document requires human work. That can al= so=20 >> lead to imprecision. >=20 > So what? They are not applied mindlessly. After each round, I can go = ahead and diff the updated .txt files, which is exactly what I=E2=80=99m = doing in an AUTH48 process. >=20 > Not all changes are done in OLD/NEW format; there are also more pervasi= ve instructions such as =E2=80=9CCapitalize all instances of foo unless u= sed in the English sense=E2=80=9D. Yes. And a human can make an error in composing a PR or in accepting one = that shouldn't be accepted. Of course, if all the participants in an AUTH48 are happy to use PRs, or = sed commands, or whatever tool they agree on, that's perfectly fine. But = OLD/NEW has the advantage that no arcane knowledge is needed to use it. Brian From nobody Sat Feb 23 04:24:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F209412D4EB for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:24:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILDhWeJUNyrI for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2776D1289FA for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id e27so3679509lfj.8 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:24:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/8CNo+gUDaxmDfvxb2M+72WY5EKXnDfRpF19RM2mJ+0=; b=ugUcMwIcZU7+tyNnOKslzVLVfFlbVKX6Py6vgDOZg4Hel0QtR8snCuNNPD9F1MYEqd Fh1uO2OyAyaMrasIfOZJz22cHI7ke0Ap3rhHLNEobQwrDoZdNgMXYrO76M6A4jKqxZNc /XL8Jfrmu3mbrL6DG0uq8oIge+eI8ajhYJuUD+rDXj8zhq4lPkfjmemYpPUVq2+oiC/o BI9gxeRt3TBs6Ur8xEQjHGjI69p5jWpABvkSueOl1+rMrUbmfNUIeidj0VXdudKi0Gk4 rbjcDeuGojxKkiL+/iEHF2RF0KNcsZA95gCWYXULGKg35q1LGNElcyNZMDlq95gdycov 2HOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/8CNo+gUDaxmDfvxb2M+72WY5EKXnDfRpF19RM2mJ+0=; b=mPrXOWthzqga2hTZuHKVEEjBZOftypLljnVeycpXB1KkZebfTFm9TwD/e4isHN9FH4 2QN/CVKx+kzgfJh+pCcdCVDmSc4s+EKX6mU6ZIdWrn/OX4XnOhB8PbuXXkeRx/KOyGxQ o2xhmmufU59T9IHvyC/AA1maqjAyCBQquUCzQiomLcIW+LcEEflLuHrm7dCNhQDZ4Vs+ rr20zw79VvZDQqzcaFXvHF3+MyP6PzIGs12viKKjLhGmSacCDPtx6OPs1D1OzH3wQ088 SWkg1o1um9FGPa2tGWfKVIsCEVzaEPF0E+sn5Br6wd+HZQPRN1aFBXI1MgMqb8E13aOU iJNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubMY1WibbKBVCFo2p3HRl0+pCHdKwViV8KYvHWtMPEM5w8YtdLY yp/JXsxs71fc2eGCVjlYGBKhBanPd01+V1AuF3mGomWR X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZosfJCo7Hxe6G+YC4B4mDpWIrbO4+TSsMfF5MsTJqnK4uefMj000DwwMJqZXKhRMtrq+TdnuNY5JSagNJTpEo= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:51bc:: with SMTP id f28mr5759982lfk.123.1550924646776; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:24:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <57c33296-24e7-15aa-1aaf-6ac82604cf1d@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <57c33296-24e7-15aa-1aaf-6ac82604cf1d@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 04:23:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a51e1b05828ec8df" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 12:24:12 -0000 --000000000000a51e1b05828ec8df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 10:52 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Trimmed and top posted. > > My understanding of the goal ws to define a set of precedure for working > groups that wanted to use github as part of the IETF. > Here's that the charter has to say: "Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, primarily GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft snapshots; using tooling and automation; informing participants about IETF policies; and others. The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set of such practices and document policies that support those practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the practices." ... The documents produced by this group will not alter the Internet Standards Process (BCP 9). They will describe how to work within it. Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion." >From my perspective, there are two take-home messages from this charter. 1. The question of whether Github is good or bad for IETF work is not in scope for this WG. The charter presumes that it's good for at least some groups. If you think Github in general is bad, then the appropriate place to raise that issue is somewhere else, perhaps the IETF WG. 2. The output of this WG must work reasonably well for the groups which already use Github. Otherwise, they will simply exercise their discretion to ignore it and continue with their current processes (as described above). As such, those proedures need to work for the entire working group, not > just for the people in the working group who live and breath github. > I never said otherwise. -Ekr > It is, as I understand it, about enabling another way for the IEtF to > work well. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 2/22/19 1:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > ... > > > > > > No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the existing > > workflows that people are already using and have already determined to > > be convenient for their use cases. You may think that that's less > > convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT WG. > > > > -Ekr > --000000000000a51e1b05828ec8df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 10:52 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com&g= t; wrote:
Trimmed and top posted.

My understanding of the goal ws to define a set of precedure for working groups that wanted to use github as part of the IETF.
=
Here's that the charter has to say:

=

"Many IETF working groups use external code repository service= s,=20 primarily GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups,=20 while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group=20 activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they=20 use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as:=20 managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub=20 issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be=20 made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft=20 snapshots; using tooling and automation; informing participants about=20 IETF policies; and others.

The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a=20 set of such practices and document policies that support those=20 practices. The policies will each detail how work is conducted by=20 working groups that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to=20 provide both process and tooling support for working groups that choose=20 to adopt the practices."

...

The documents produced by thi= s group will not alter the Internet=20 Standards Process (BCP 9). They will describe how to work within it.=20 Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies=20 to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion."


From my perspective, there are two take-home messages from this= charter.

1. The question of whether Github is good or bad for IE= TF work is not in scope for this WG. The charter presumes that it's goo= d for at least some groups. If you think Github in general is bad, then the= appropriate place to raise that issue is somewhere else, perhaps the IETF = WG.

2. The output of this WG must work reasonably well for the gr= oups which already use Github. Otherwise, they will simply exercise their d= iscretion to ignore it and continue with their current processes (as descri= bed above).


As such, those proedures need to work for the entire working group, not just for the people in the working group who live and breath github.

I never said otherwise.

-Ekr


It is, as I understand it, about enabling another way for the IEtF to
work well.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/22/19 1:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
...
>
>
> No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the exi= sting
> workflows that people are already using and have already determined to=
> be convenient for their use cases. You may think that that's less =
> convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT WG.
>
> -Ekr
--000000000000a51e1b05828ec8df-- From nobody Sat Feb 23 08:52:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC4212D7F8 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:52:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GOO8An7ESEmN for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BA0812D4EA for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446Dld6qzjz12PZb; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:52:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1550940749; bh=JMzjFtg/OaJWn24+BEQCj3shh+jKaEnPHkBS1pMueso=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZueurCSfCje/mxXHcUFqTWf2InidPiprD6iln0u6xStTZ/A4rsPKP5jzf8cLDqdJD rbpEezkY4x3MeC5zWWDCsRQCACYGr6TrX6aKhZS8BBKJjiH18V9EE1zk+06TeqA8Yx vgQF+vI92Xdo53x2wdDvcAgek59HBpvvi1ODkal0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 446Dld2tfpz12PSK; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:52:29 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <57c33296-24e7-15aa-1aaf-6ac82604cf1d@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <15ad0a61-251d-d22d-7a4a-96a950ffeb4c@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 11:52:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 16:52:32 -0000 I do not disagree with either of your conclusions EKR. But I do think you have missed an additional point. The procedures recommend need to be good for the IETF participants in the working groups that choose to use them. As a simple example, any procedure which does not include email confirmation of decisions would not pas the second condition of the charter. I am not asserting that anyone is trying to make such changes. But your chacterization seemed to miss that aspect. Which is why we all worked so hard to find charter wording that addressed everyone's concerns. Yours, Joel On 2/23/19 7:23 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 10:52 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > Trimmed and top posted. > > My understanding of the goal ws to define a set of precedure for > working > groups that wanted to use github as part of the IETF. > > > Here's that the charter has to say: > > "Many IETF working groups use external code repository services, > primarily GitHub, in managing their work. Individual working groups, > while continuing to operate within IETF guidelines for working group > activity, have developed their own policies and practices for how they > use these services. These policies and practices cover aspects such as: > managing discussion between working group mailing lists and GitHub > issues and pull requests; how text contributions are expected to be > made; labeling and naming conventions; maintaining readable draft > snapshots; using tooling and automation; informing participants about > IETF policies; and others. > > The GitHub Integration and Tooling (GIT) working group will select a set > of such practices and document policies that support those practices. > The policies will each detail how work is conducted by working groups > that opt to follow the work practice. The goal is to provide both > process and tooling support for working groups that choose to adopt the > practices." > > ... > > The documents produced by this group will not alter the Internet > Standards Process (BCP 9). They will describe how to work within it. > Whether working groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies > to support their work will remain entirely at their discretion." > > > From my perspective, there are two take-home messages from this charter. > > 1. The question of whether Github is good or bad for IETF work is not in > scope for this WG. The charter presumes that it's good for at least some > groups. If you think Github in general is bad, then the appropriate > place to raise that issue is somewhere else, perhaps the IETF WG. > > 2. The output of this WG must work reasonably well for the groups which > already use Github. Otherwise, they will simply exercise their > discretion to ignore it and continue with their current processes (as > described above). > > > As such, those proedures need to work for the entire working group, not > just for the people in the working group who live and breath github. > > > I never said otherwise. > > -Ekr > > > It is, as I understand it, about enabling another way for the IEtF to > work well. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 2/22/19 1:32 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > ... > > > > > > No, I don't think so. The goal of this WG is to streamline the > existing > > workflows that people are already using and have already > determined to > > be convenient for their use cases. You may think that that's less > > convenient, but that's not really a discussion for the GIT WG. > > > > -Ekr > From nobody Sat Feb 23 14:21:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8BB130F7B for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 14:21:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mit.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K-7EA9-r7sdd for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 14:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr770112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.77.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A868E130F65 for ; 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ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of mit.edu designates 18.9.28.11 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.9.28.11; helo=outgoing.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (18.9.28.11) by BY2NAM03FT012.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.84.235) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1643.13 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:21:25 +0000 Received: from kduck.mit.edu (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x1NMLLqU014493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 23 Feb 2019 17:21:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 16:21:21 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Heather Flanagan CC: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR01MB5610 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:21:32 -0000 On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 09:57:58AM -0800, Heather Flanagan wrote: > > > > On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > > > > On Feb 21, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: > >> On the one hand, it was quite painful. > > > > You’re the second person to say this, so I assume it’s true, but it’s also surprising. It would be helpful if (perhaps this has already been done) there could be a writeup of what about the process of using github was painful. We aren’t constrained to either choosing to use github or do nothing to improve the process, and your point about auth48 changes resonates for me too. If we understood why Github didn’t make things better, or what things about Github made things enough worse that the things Github made better weren’t enough, that would be helpful. > > > > _ > > > > > ekr has posted his impressions of the GitHub experiment with the RFC Editor, which I’ve seen and is useful feedback. From the point of view of the editors, however, the experience of what worked and what didn’t was somewhat different. We posted our feedback to the IESG and the tls-chairs list. I was also paying close attention to that experiment, and from what I saw it definitely seemed like the high-volume stream of github notifications was somewhere near overwhelming for the RPC staff that were on the receiving end. The internal discussions amongst authors, chairs, and AD were all going into that email stream, and it became hard to tell when an issue was resolved, and what the resolution was (at least some of the time). So I'm not terribly gung-ho about bringing the copyeditors directly into a github workflow unless they have other reasons to be working with git and/or pull requests, since the added burden doesn't give them particularly great benefits in return. That said, github can still provide great value during AUTH48 to the authors/chairs/ADs that are used to it, for their internal discussions. I think we just saw that for draft-ietf-acme-acme (I saw the emails go by but didn't get to actually look at the pull requests), but it seemed to be preserving the benefits of the github workflow without drowning the copyeditors in notifications. > One other point - we need to continue this conversation about how to improve AUTH48 for the authors. In much the same way that when I first started, the majority of input I received was that the format was the biggest pain point that needed attention, what I’m hearing now is that AUTH48 is the next big area to target. While I'm not ready to revive the experiment given where things stand with the format work (more on that in the next few weeks) this is definitely something that I’m hearing as both urgent and important. Thank you for hearing this and reporting back. -Ben From nobody Sun Feb 24 08:42:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8436912D4E8 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 08:42:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ScV7LDJb_si for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 08:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C50FC124408 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 08:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id p15so3964024qkl.5 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 08:42:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6l5v8RI7JeA7mpwkL6w71T31fYNPgwXc5H5VytV6sC0=; b=KU65/Dwk2ESLd1gDZl72Ppcmpdtinh9YeQy8VFOl1LJq2q06Hl5A3pf8W4a7oeCM8Z HhfLC/LDSSVIe3sqeL8rCwp792a6wsQwVsKqpot6XXv9MydQuzOFGa2ALaqve7sROSYo w+uodS7nbLZt2OjQcQchGo0MEW0oL+cA9y2jPnlCMgZgGpqBZR/nO5M/hmRWaCOg/d4A RYoa6EvVLdNcybn0PxtOmH1TTkBZwSVFcnb+zDB2F3oOnNEN0R8GRqeD4fkHKcw0Kp7k SOOqlV33cpCpNEzKfjzPSElobQugetNG3bxZI6djiGwcwyyy0in9+nhGL75edMcM0KAW 5Ogw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6l5v8RI7JeA7mpwkL6w71T31fYNPgwXc5H5VytV6sC0=; b=paYjAIas2T47BLSRxTt4ltd3sHaGbdnrs7HsttQw0kDnlwo/tPsJeLGm2tfPJJyQ0/ s7KFVA+ee8d0iOlbhsdrNkX4Ut89/o5nXJtHWaPwFpYX9QNoUL3u+j4FJXg+u+ZoqpCh xRdHX5w7ko9sbXi4rfijIf2V6s5m49SpS8gnKdCk1vkaRx0PGdG3ZMFOECaAanPb5D3G 6KxKZ8e8l+enpDwsZ9aYVGlUxRjdfTZpvjJtd1BAof+PZt1WHUkZqn5UqduDv4Uf07yo +9ZBYBkxWKPMXgwXlxRztOnbiB05/vuI2ftF0pfqOw2MLfzAMj7nRZfxRJZ2zodIUTg8 lLcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYfdEJk9IZZA9JXmZaZDCeAzGbb0hwBJ0gQToWdGb/usskdr28p ezJ8JGXy/iJDD2am6CjUQYACRg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY03BX93Y12JOLAnm0GuknTZWWcH4ubhaR2fwuN9PWSZRaigc5DrnHMOkJtsYCN3UM2vb5aDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1103:: with SMTP id o3mr10212211qkk.157.1551026532769; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 08:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g2sm3912603qkc.72.2019.02.24.08.42.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 08:42:12 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:42:11 -0500 Cc: Heather Flanagan , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:42:16 -0000 So the theme I=E2=80=99m hearing here is that the github problem = tracking tools suck for RFC editing, which is no surprise to me. Am I = hearing that correctly? What about the actual revision control system? = Was that a problem, or was it the other stuff that didn=E2=80=99t = work? From nobody Sun Feb 24 11:02:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2E3129A87 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:02:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.018, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zK1nB3gdiwD1 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f48.google.com (mail-ot1-f48.google.com [209.85.210.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7DCD129A85 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f48.google.com with SMTP id n8so6044090otl.6 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:02:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iTA3dIZ37O3dVa5e8x905MD/RUifhO/X9b21dferM7w=; b=iRrMml5wRc7Dqsd0C2p2X82xVECsGR8q4cttoFVYAeNt1K2VcEUYIcfQIRaJzfMa8e ybKa7YpB/udcUdyjg49hyRpSxxQrSg8BVKQ/iLfJ7PRs6JEdHT70ipFzmoko7TQ4ohAc Nw3zXB7C4wToe5OVsS2OJdJMXb1zYtBWTsAwnksVaAUqf12H1McnjLzcWjvdQEZ+8b4b HWe5dVdqn5JKZJVS6R0osZ9AZ9PPG+Vq59+m8dQ3oQEQODqOq+ialKcBJ53gT8oBWjCS t4W9ze4uARxuM3iF2vJ6NPhNFZMp7UQmCYj7xINeA4uLcShgi4tptNkKc55P/hX6ptdw l/Qg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaEIOVZdH7DYpdynUsSAG7wxBqrwN4wUyTcYQQHJKPdOivD/GaN sr6LQ0UVFAJZ8ulHXIzRqhGakkLJorHhF4sJAWQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZ4AqsSglu68TbX7e9v0nvCIob54HCCZ6lunNedEOMESHfwRC8YKITNlMx6OA84YRB5TQUtqJME+mMIKaMsip4= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7685:: with SMTP id j5mr9444407otl.150.1551034970692; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:02:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:02:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , RFC Interest , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076684a0582a8787a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:02:54 -0000 --00000000000076684a0582a8787a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" If people want to continue to revise an RFC after it has been submitted, the correct way to go about it is to take the XML2RFC of the RFC and convert it to whatever tool you want to use. I do have such a tool and it supports Markdown, HTML, XML2RFC and Microsoft Word. The reason the tool isn't yet available is because 1) I have been waiting for the new RFC format to be supported, 2) I have been finishing the design of my Mathematical Mesh project and 3) I have spent much of the past 18 months chasing a bunch of very very stupid criminals round the net who constantly advertise their next action on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook etc. I use Github for my code. As with much else from Linux world, it is a tool that demands that people adopt the same mental model as the original designer. Since I find that mental model to be confused, arbitrary and arcane, I refuse to do that and only make use of the simplest features because after over forty years of working with computer systems my experience tells me that I will not see any return on the time investment required to learn it. Trying to make Git do what it is supposed to is painful. Trying to adopt it to other purposes is going to be an exercise in sadomasochism. Take the term 'pull request'. What is that supposed to be? The only way I can interpret the term is that it is a request that I make to access the code in the repository. Obviously it is not that but what it is, I forget shortly after being told. --00000000000076684a0582a8787a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If = people want to continue to revise an RFC after it has been submitted, the c= orrect way to go about it is to take the XML2RFC of the RFC and convert it = to whatever tool you want to use. I do have such a tool and it supports Mar= kdown, HTML, XML2RFC and Microsoft Word.

The reason the tool isn't yet available is because 1) I= have been waiting for the new RFC format to be supported, 2) I have been f= inishing the design of my Mathematical Mesh project and 3) I have spent muc= h of the past 18 months chasing a bunch of very very stupid criminals round= the net who constantly advertise their next action on Twitter, Instagram, = Facebook etc.


I use Github for = my code. As with much else from Linux world, it is a tool that demands that= people adopt the same mental model as the original designer. Since I find = that mental model to be confused, arbitrary and arcane, I refuse to do that= and only make use of the simplest features because after over forty years = of working with computer systems my experience tells me that I will not see= any return on the time investment required to learn it.

Trying to make Git do what it is supposed t= o is painful. Trying to adopt it to other purposes is going to be an exerci= se in sadomasochism.

Take= the term 'pull request'. What is that supposed to be? The only way= I can interpret the term is that it is a request that I make to access the= code in the repository. Obviously it is not that but what it is, I forget = shortly after being told.
--00000000000076684a0582a8787a-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 11:27:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4638712D4F3 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:27:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YSVKbGnFtIy2 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FA3F12D826 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id z13so4120077qki.2 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:27:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=9FjdyHZ1IY0oGFz/b3EezRV0lxeB1naqQ0GB9x5u/nI=; b=ZufdRnw2mvamrsZalFDttL6n2KG/ANPp596/jrfGuXQiZdQhSZIvXQvAP7fOaF2mKR Rasyc+E3IBWm3y3MA6Vd8MC1TvrWIyOcAoO6bboRgrmxvjbIDeDfKCP90eqpRHV2ne8V bt8UKnhdMXlAb5X/WGlu91RXLqSFntrWP2VhWWFEF5CjxeXg1k7Zx8Zr26QfJFVhHplG X4iPQ4V/JAYgf/ng377diVMRzSWjm5keAYi9YhYSs8ZkZ5YSHtHJPXRA3NjWXwq4Ulig q1jkpLktpF27vegul8I4Jjb8qlHsPBXQu8d5FeeIKL46v2JFm+NcX4e+tv0HFrcwHiPF Penw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=9FjdyHZ1IY0oGFz/b3EezRV0lxeB1naqQ0GB9x5u/nI=; b=lklAvvwjZCQcGAGbEcTxGoBBvij0OD4KRwNIh8GUMbtmvsprlAwRJn/HkQklwMNvGy Ta7B4FZGxSFK4ix3a5EuxQdn8HFbJI88bs/Qi8Z4dgQbebjJ5cWZYwBVH5ufeQhX5ENy +4Hm7YLoy0IovWFjnVQKPVFl9M7TMej+kvZ+jdlr+7PlIj2cf2UKcnGVI9P02NhRVjRz 0EB9g+PkAOM/KdY06avjagJsAHccSTEOGwHztnELoQ+zyoQ1zZx4O77vyqHe8DK9SAbM EmziWi99nGU55Jp3nMFp/hybVu5fvxof4YadH8aIdij4E6akTfqId0KT3yJ+VZ+rs1Cp 14Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubAUxbx1hSffDO4tZKRh3qi6WDAMeHpA0iPGayPeD+LnhdaGWrR pXbprF8An2FDMYSCX/Fm8GGLQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ia7PPMd0sjo9ErRpri5JF9iBJSYzN44vva12BGdkZtdsMLm1zK0smMOFlJePfdThz9rw7kA6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1333:: with SMTP id p19mr9930123qkj.165.1551036430141; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p18sm4812739qkl.48.2019.02.24.11.27.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 11:27:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <4EE941B3-4435-46A6-BD71-02573345E374@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B3CF3BAF-5EB1-436A-96FF-5F9B7EB9E0D9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:27:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , RFC Interest , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" To: Phillip Hallam-Baker References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:27:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B3CF3BAF-5EB1-436A-96FF-5F9B7EB9E0D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 24, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker = wrote: > Take the term 'pull request'. What is that supposed to be? The only = way I can interpret the term is that it is a request that I make to = access the code in the repository. Obviously it is not that but what it = is, I forget shortly after being told. It=E2=80=99s an automatically-generated patch. --Apple-Mail=_B3CF3BAF-5EB1-436A-96FF-5F9B7EB9E0D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 24, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
Take the term 'pull request'. What is that supposed to be? = The only way I can interpret the term is that it is a request that I = make to access the code in the repository. Obviously it is not that but = what it is, I forget shortly after being = told.

It=E2=80= =99s an automatically-generated patch.

= --Apple-Mail=_B3CF3BAF-5EB1-436A-96FF-5F9B7EB9E0D9-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 12:09:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C00D1279E6 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:09:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isdg.net header.b=A0vQ0Yz9; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=beta.winserver.com header.b=hjZwqQ4L Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TV0W46YyZxpD for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.winserver.com (news.winserver.com [76.245.57.69]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508B912D84D for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:09:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=2030; t=1551038948; atps=ietf.org; atpsh=sha1; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From: Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=EbMiaFS6Ru9CRiALlK6soyGNsEk=; b=A0vQ0Yz9IHu8KSUHKvY6fjg2OdQUFa7GTCHPvDWfoE6P39eJR2ZWOOt3/J/ea8 w4NJskdcaxA03aAM4+dl9FJol1nh9x/QMBXNn+g0Ku9/xPYbIRJTl4LOXLlvOtC7 /LJxe0nB3CKCH+qMk2Knhwj9BeyYpdHsOTCjSYaDzruzU= Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! 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SMTP v7.0.454.6) with ESMTP id 1993753908.9.361144; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:04:02 -0500 Message-ID: <5C72F9DF.6080801@isdg.net> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:09:03 -0500 From: Hector Santos Reply-To: hsantos@isdg.net Organization: Santronics Software, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <4EE941B3-4435-46A6-BD71-02573345E374@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <4EE941B3-4435-46A6-BD71-02573345E374@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:09:21 -0000 On 2/24/2019 2:27 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 24, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> Take the term 'pull request'. What is that supposed to be? The only way I can interpret the term is that it is a request that I make to access the code in the repository. Obviously it is not that but what it is, I forget shortly after being told. > > It’s an automatically-generated patch. I am still on CVS for products vcs. I did do a small exploration and migration to SVN, even played with Google Projects at time, but for the last few years exploring Git/Hub as I considered the final years of my extensive software development years and moving stuff to GitHub. Why? Because that's where the "Kids" (and VCs) are at today. I am with Phillip, its an odd idea. I found SVN easier from a CLI terminology standpoint. GIT doesn't even have a common sense "list" CLI command. I am not posting to argue/debate about the Git tool under consideration. A CVS should be part of the SUBMISSION process which it is already, technically, because you can see the diffs when you submit new drafts. But why do authors need to consider GIT for their IETF I-D work? It is an another learning curve and if you are not using it yet, its not a piece of cake at the CLI level. The presumption for ease of usage would be a GUI, i.e. http://GitHub.Com Anyway, more importantly, for submitting I-Ds, when it is not yet, if ever, part of a WG consideration, do I need to use GIT (locally) in anticipation that it might be part of a WG and I can then "Git Push" to github? Personally, today, it should all be interactive and online using an IETF HTML5-based GUI Editor & Outliner for I-D creation and submission with automated backend diff/git maintenance. That would be great tool for the future of the IETF recruitment of new participanting engineers world wide and also promoting the usage of IETF style technical specifications for documenting new Internet Methods. -- HLS From nobody Sun Feb 24 12:48:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D3712D827 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:48:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rN5kewVX_M_L for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:48:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFBB2126C15 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x1OKlsNn004567; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 21:47:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6C2FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.194.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 446xwn6LDgz1Bpf; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 21:47:53 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4EE941B3-4435-46A6-BD71-02573345E374@fugue.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 21:47:52 +0100 Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 572734071.03001-88b703c72d13f296311f7fc718c45b55 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <4EE941B3-4435-46A6-BD71-02573345E374@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:48:09 -0000 On Feb 24, 2019, at 20:27, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > On Feb 24, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker = wrote: >> Take the term 'pull request'. What is that supposed to be? The only = way I can interpret the term is that it is a request that I make to = access the code in the repository. Obviously it is not that but what it = is, I forget shortly after being told. >=20 > It=E2=80=99s an automatically-generated patch. And =E2=80=9Cpull request=E2=80=9D is a github term, not a git term, and = a very inaccurate one. The github clone gitlab uses a saner term, = =E2=80=9Cmerge request=E2=80=9D (as in requesting the curator of the = main line to merge the offered patch into mainline). I wouldn=E2=80=99t think to defend the arcana of git (*). This could = have been done much better, but it wasn=E2=80=99t. But then, I=E2=80=99m = not going to defend the arcana of the English language, either. =20 I need to know both English and git to be a functioning member of the = professional environment I=E2=80=99m part of. =20 To the people who use contempt to rationalize their bad decisions about = not learning essentials: Get over it, and also please stop canvassing = for foolishness. But this is off-topic. =20 I find the diagnosis plausible that it is much more beneficial for the = RPC to use git than to use the non-git github functions. Maybe we can = re-evaluate the experiment under this lens. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (Well, OK, I refused to learn TeX mainly because I know how much better = it could have been done, so I=E2=80=99m a member of that foolishness = club, too. But at least I=E2=80=99m not asking others to join.) (*) https://xkcd.com/1597/ was mentioned =E2=80=94 but please remember = that this web comic is humor, which benefits from comic exaggeration. From nobody Sun Feb 24 12:58:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBAA12D4EA for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:58:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t3pZZVgyIT4p for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97A24126C15 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id p25so8361056qtb.3 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:58:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ayr8W9jA/z6y+Ip2TxgR+04NXNj0ow8qFKwHLrqv5qM=; b=gF7okcwuob0alPCQMYXsfBqXKJxGOBqLBRz+GRAuM1qVJ7w56RMagXM8N6PnJyMfHM cKC/fknF/eyjZ8Ib189pJoKbNzqzhKTxdv+yT8hzNfwjFfjQZHI/H2LCm4qlb3fki8vm SH5bZkYuxTsaQ6gXi8QciacuHU3fldY/XbMvnVOf5R5Vtcbud56SvGTT/lpJGosc+A3u a9806YSjpabsfrMM84juPE3Ph9CN9q2M6C4m6Ns79NGtL+X/A6X4Yxdb/y1y+0a7r3xS xLdg28bhb9YdcU3MiCmb0maFNKKzcYjTsVCMdpTeOhCOedlfZAz0P4uWfvVmwngGXmek JYTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ayr8W9jA/z6y+Ip2TxgR+04NXNj0ow8qFKwHLrqv5qM=; b=doJsCPYHIdU5kSGuTPfOW/vqF05Top7PY/vSUCxwH86IvLmvmjuKUkWJ8c18FEI+D+ QwUi2PboQlFGSyt6svs0bG3VEFvM2STKMNvmdmjX4Aq/9kQZ1TJnklYDerKw384c3m2L Mf5CmJi8I+Ok0Aajf3a1l0ZPs2lIzPdSVQU8GKA1WX/Cn2dgShG7Y3xiktsyXTR7QuUu 7Zz7fzOvrlqzJzHCFmWV2WkvYnt244qqyINnv2UgLA5picdcfvlQryse+6NqI2/xCTnZ PoQPzH65cBDxVsyoXXZ+sMe2HR50JKFU4aiPiK/XSlg6zp5rHR7CfUkC3p7i7PnpwusE P20A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuY66XVtny1/aMA8mvP1+2wOhToyw5icRNcTYA2xss12SbRv7490 v2UtOijTMeJahMWw8Pf4cW89IQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbLgxuHl/pzqZAcaSnnPW2Ejuql0Pxw+BKdvxrVy4YzRQ+LPGdWJBspRM/BmFgo6t8v6+s/LA== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:d847:: with SMTP id i7mr11158076qvj.147.1551041912287; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b20sm3898535qtr.34.2019.02.24.12.58.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:58:31 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:58:30 -0500 Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9EFECE95-80A3-4B17-8FA7-CD2EF1E5191F@fugue.com> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <4EE941B3-4435-46A6-BD71-02573345E374@fugue.com> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:58:36 -0000 Well, indeed, I=E2=80=99ve worked both with Atlassian=E2=80=99s = bitbucket product and with github, and the way that atlassian handles = merges is highly preferable, despite that they also call them pull = requests. Unfortunately Atlassian is not free, but it=E2=80=99s also = not very expensive. Possibly there is an open source alternative = that=E2=80=99s similarly good=E2=80=94I just don=E2=80=99t know the = market well enough to be able to say. From nobody Sun Feb 24 14:15:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821781286D8 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:15:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r90s1K7rn-Sl for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB9D91277D2 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id l5so5765853lje.1 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:15:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=h/ldbNWfzn2EXNZGk4rqu1N0fLT1EXqAkrpR9bZRw9g=; b=LqxiX7j0Kmm9amG5gpP0gWCIekfwizvYAgexVP5BlfsaG6AVxnN6iUpMgCxLJ4jw4/ ZrixJotB2D2uenMqsu+64ukYyeioXB1gj6aP7T5ijO/WDYGnQ6X1OiFucq07WyKcD9fg yf7ehn9bZrNMoIE2zMB29+8xFGHlAT59zq5yQoblY5W6DgVvjX2O6xu26zbE0h6cxd66 IVMT8P4NtZ0SCCAD1dwpEXrQJea9laszKTP7jSONHLUChx0RkckSu2xmN2z3Td6Dj+EK 8wxh9hOEtnEerApoKZoBNKOwm8weM+ByboyvGmY4WBfvBX06jt8Z8k4OC1LFWe5SXRjn iPXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h/ldbNWfzn2EXNZGk4rqu1N0fLT1EXqAkrpR9bZRw9g=; b=DGe7ouGuQUCVK/OEJoMWguaYHFgYJpQGDN0E2n07uszg1/8eHluYmIaG41eJ+sCtLq mC0Q1KD3fzEqKO0NXFPYhpqVmZ9aVvH8TES0PH7OpTASAmIIlEISIquQ56ZiliCMG+5k QvxmjT8gy7Wg/cByA5TLnfFuEfD/iMc+sj+d3l2R7IIlcboyzm1hcgq8GUjRF7eXrthd qmh71ce5R69FVR3O6rZQututaquS9+E42c9LdEy+Yk59mDZHFNi+L+vC0Hqt7ic2hKi9 aE2/QDM5q+It4+wRbNqWY8dIAR099Q+6XgXz2Ikowvpfb9IXh2TjX3aUlDvuYhMVGKQ2 LDYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubB3vsfmM9KqFDnttfCKTYunNMygRvoRVAHBBVdZCgVFqh6e0V+ COKRLxcjePjXj8rdBXAdc0iDKP3auOdN+gfMkFV/NQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ia8KzzHmkizZlPDSkSHhv+2IGa7DjHZJA+2RiDtUXDojLBB+9tgNwRFN6aJuHAITBrwEMQkRHnmEXf/MjTelUI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:47c4:: with SMTP id u187mr2456109lja.10.1551046551607; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:15:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:15:14 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , RFC Interest , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bd3b270582ab2af6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 22:15:56 -0000 --000000000000bd3b270582ab2af6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 8:42 AM Ted Lemon wrote: > So the theme I=E2=80=99m hearing here is that the github problem tracking= tools > suck for RFC editing, which is no surprise to me. Am I hearing that > correctly? Perhaps. The premise behind this WG (and I think experience) is that at least for some WGs, the Github tools are pretty good -- or at least better than what people were using before -- for developing the IDs that are the input for RFCs. I recognize that there are people who don't seem to feel that way, but I don't think that that's useful to debate here. As a number of people have noted, I don't think the way we used Github for the final copy-editing and typesetting phase of the RFCs worked that well the one time we tried it. From my perspective, there were a number of problems there, but the main one was intermixing copy-editing changes (initiated by the RPC) with substantive changes (initiated by the author, WG chairs, and ADs). The result was that the RPC was exposed to a lot of churn as we worked through those issues. With that said, I did find that having a tool which allowed one to track every change initiated by RPC and respond to it was very helpful. At present, we do this by using two tools together (diffs plus NEW/OLD), but this is a fairly clumsy system compared to a tool like Pull Requests, let alone a top-tier tool like Phabricator. As an analogy, open source projects used to mostly do code review by examining diffs and then commenting on them, and most systems have now moved to integrated diff and review tools instead. -Ekr What about the actual revision control system? Was that a problem, or > was it the other stuff that didn=E2=80=99t work? > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000bd3b270582ab2af6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 8:42 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
So the theme I=E2=80=99m hearing here is = that the github problem tracking tools suck for RFC editing, which is no su= rprise to me.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Am I hearing that correctly?=C2=A0
<= div>=C2=A0
Perhaps. The premise behind this WG (and I think e= xperience) is that at least for some WGs, the Github tools are pretty good = -- or at least better than what people were using before -- for developing = the IDs that are the input for RFCs. I recognize that there are people who = don't seem to feel that way, but I don't think that that's usef= ul to debate here.

As a number of people have note= d, I don't think the way we used Github for the final copy-editing and = typesetting phase of the RFCs worked that well the one time we tried it. Fr= om my perspective, there were a number of problems there, but the main one = was intermixing copy-editing changes (initiated by the RPC) with substantiv= e changes (initiated by the author, WG chairs, and ADs). The result was tha= t the RPC was exposed to a lot of churn as we worked through those issues. = With that said, I did find that having a tool which allowed one to track ev= ery change initiated by RPC and respond to it was very helpful. At present,= we do this by using two tools together (diffs plus NEW/OLD), but this is a= fairly clumsy system compared to a tool like Pull Requests, let alone a to= p-tier tool like Phabricator. As an analogy, open source projects used to m= ostly do code review by examining diffs and then commenting on them, and mo= st systems have now moved to integrated diff and review tools instead.
<= /div>

-Ekr



<= /div>

=C2= =A0What about the actual revision control system?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Was that a pr= oblem, or was it the other stuff that didn=E2=80=99t work?

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--000000000000bd3b270582ab2af6-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 14:22:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84D31277D2 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:22:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=ZSmmg0wz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=c/+Ucffp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zYFzQHnq0HK for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E8D9126C15 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6641D218C9; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:22:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=3 HxCrcr2MbiRpUrU+lygOamI/OHNUi86AQqAnH1Ufks=; b=ZSmmg0wzYFcyT7Rcj g8muuqgsTHF1xfh62uAdtc+iiADN2H9cGrsuq4WtbRd1XF/tVtWg6oB6rxmpKgGS FV1B5JyyZPfdYO9eyA7cVWma07c4uOBQgNjDtENY3y/PNZY3nzVVTXG07Fisqo20 tc3Uo4sgoQ4GVJiDnnl4yliIu1YFl4r6dFews05lKxlOO2jCTp+MyuUWbbMU1ffr te3yT+Z5b1NGcrQC92lTKpwRK+av2JdhwGjtcdqlZ0icaybJwffphuxXOXH3RN3O S6/AphQqen/cyuxiaV63/70UqNkk6sAeEEbMe8t38ajvwFvGfvjbkJN3IHCkGmX4 Uka9A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=3HxCrcr2MbiRpUrU+lygOamI/OHNUi86AQqAnH1Uf ks=; b=c/+UcffpwJmmPHzijw7d1czYTAYGdJgy0DwMCMglpNWWThAEIghRWjzcG bbNJ0XjinIo7cfdP92SC79yVzrev+Bx5TE8wBVa6c5VYI9JJG9LpHORJfutoy6dj BDXENaWK7kgl42yu9S+Vwr8Z20RIsi68mYM2pQwDD/zHfOSyG6w83wgiRqOP57/B jFE11CUPg+LJZqSgLWjBsxYYO5qFsGIMqGNvxqjqgJIy2IVyYftnbPmYpyUTx0QN +sQNvuBwgDzyQ2GHTAv/948wgCmGPpnRE/meyWr+w+c7nXoXVavaA8009NwSW9QO dxemxjaQz7rSP91I3JqkikYZFVENA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedutddrudeggdduiedtucdltddurdegtdelrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhht necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudeggedrudefiedrudejhedrvdeknecurfgrrhgr mhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuih iivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from attitudadjuster.mnot.net (unknown [144.136.175.28]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 62646E462B; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:22:04 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:22:01 +1100 Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> To: Heather Flanagan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 22:22:13 -0000 Hi Heather, > On 23 Feb 2019, at 4:57 am, Heather Flanagan = wrote: ... > * "Reflowed" text within the XML file is a common result of making = editorial changes or inserting questions into the XML file. Typically, = this has not been a concern for authors or the RPC, as such changes = aren't reflected in the publication output, and the only diffs reviewed = are text file vs. text file. In the case of this document, when = reviewing XML diffs generated by GitHub, this introduced a number of = changes that were noise. In the future, one way to avoid this would be = careful editing of the source file to avoid reflowing the text or = inserting comments mid-paragraph; however that seems like a lot of work = for little return given the purpose behind the XML file. (As an aside to = this one, in the future, improved XML diffing might not display changes = to reflowed text in the XML -- the xmldiff tool is under development as = part of the format work.) This makes me wonder if the experiment was viewed as unsuccessful = because we only partially adopting the GitHub(+) toolchain. For example, no one keeps issues on their code (or specs) in GitHub by = putting comments in the source; they open issues for them. Adopting = GitHub issues as a way to ask the authors questions would avoid the = associated reflows. Many projects use CI to assure that changes adhere to a chosen style, so = that whitespace and similar formatting changes don't cause unnecessary = diffs. It seems to me that to be successful, we need to design a *new* workflow = that's appropriate to the (proposed) tools, rather than try to graft the = old one onto the new tools. Of course, that's a lot more work. If you're = willing to give it another go, perhaps folks on ietf-and-github could = help. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Feb 24 15:16:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620F71295EC for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KZtC0-X0mxAk for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DFD81275F3 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E62C1C416F; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t6I2PSNy-yIA; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.198.42.38] (c-71-231-216-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.231.216.10]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D3191C4150; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Heather Flanagan In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:16:02 -0800 Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 23:16:07 -0000 > On Feb 24, 2019, at 2:22 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Heather, >=20 >> On 23 Feb 2019, at 4:57 am, Heather Flanagan = wrote: > ... >> * "Reflowed" text within the XML file is a common result of making = editorial changes or inserting questions into the XML file. Typically, = this has not been a concern for authors or the RPC, as such changes = aren't reflected in the publication output, and the only diffs reviewed = are text file vs. text file. In the case of this document, when = reviewing XML diffs generated by GitHub, this introduced a number of = changes that were noise. In the future, one way to avoid this would be = careful editing of the source file to avoid reflowing the text or = inserting comments mid-paragraph; however that seems like a lot of work = for little return given the purpose behind the XML file. (As an aside to = this one, in the future, improved XML diffing might not display changes = to reflowed text in the XML -- the xmldiff tool is under development as = part of the format work.) >=20 > This makes me wonder if the experiment was viewed as unsuccessful = because we only partially adopting the GitHub(+) toolchain. >=20 > For example, no one keeps issues on their code (or specs) in GitHub by = putting comments in the source; they open issues for them. Adopting = GitHub issues as a way to ask the authors questions would avoid the = associated reflows. >=20 > Many projects use CI to assure that changes adhere to a chosen style, = so that whitespace and similar formatting changes don't cause = unnecessary diffs. >=20 > It seems to me that to be successful, we need to design a *new* = workflow that's appropriate to the (proposed) tools, rather than try to = graft the old one onto the new tools. Of course, that's a lot more work. = If you're willing to give it another go, perhaps folks on = ietf-and-github could help. I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One of = my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with = multiple paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or = working group level) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a = position where we are either a) duplicating significant effort, b) = disaccommodating a significant number of authors, and/or c) becoming a = GitHub help desk for those authors that are not familiar with GitHub. I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with = another organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being = useful here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a = GitHub back end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes = back into the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly. -Heather= From nobody Sun Feb 24 15:19:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0163812D84C for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:19:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=XckRF84u; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Po1nFt4+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aYvlZU4XteOB for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B07021295EC for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2AF2202A; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 18:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 18:19:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=u /zcnKLTMMmxAeGE4Qugz5gtnPGoYGXNl7JV9lmH0NI=; b=XckRF84uQ8Bkk6gQi DuQ4MRwOb7bTEw4TMewIsw77n7UQOuDCVsCi/nhuw9Ogliz/w5Y0gyqiUv6HTS48 fYjs/EnMkuNJygN8RM6B/YpbbySOogPltgTuzf/RqLOesFiDIqaBPAJe0VArKUnU e4M1F0HZHTyVF9iRicmqzXisY+0YOiFSeVNwMlG8H91SgTmiH9ZDkoexf/yrObCb IxAPdRHKoAdgEn1PwNhRnR4H6i2cfURBitDPZfGhmY5W/iQCJy65H9/x3PenZ7pY 21XiqVgXNcQmc2BuJUVSMK4hDlFnpSRbpPu5gOQkUgooY6pwHOisTYx81rVWtIwZ XwRTQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=u/zcnKLTMMmxAeGE4Qugz5gtnPGoYGXNl7JV9lmH0 NI=; b=Po1nFt4+GeRrBT58aJEx/1ktWE8uUgTK0Nxs70ykjlpCXfdg6Rx+3w8uP uP1QZVMtSR8fXG1lIeIyejaK63I8Axio9uHdPjnJTWVR6PxALa2g3RFfAulunx03 xeNE9ajx63SbQadnjKJU+R6ATKHJIhQQEchRlMYiWHb+tv2PFREJ0FGCKkpMsCg9 DYMM/6waZmpzktyT2zWYl/XabddbexVM8cuRaU9MoSIdoDMxpHBkh366sB0A8qwj 9Syboqr033YB5OfHpjBU2hcxvjmSgeJ7UO/qUPv41/XIki/rz1cWUfcC22eJ6Vxl FJLNW757Aa6O8uMiqVEgLOgsSHQaA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedutddrudehgddtieculddtuddrgedtledrtddtmd cutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfhuthen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh epghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudeggedrudefiedrudej hedrvdeknecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from attitudadjuster.mnot.net (unknown [144.136.175.28]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5AB0410318; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 18:19:32 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:19:31 +1100 Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9BA4771D-58B2-4DE7-B07B-DDBDB83F59AC@mnot.net> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> To: Heather Flanagan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 23:19:40 -0000 > On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan = wrote: >=20 > I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One = of my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with = multiple paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or = working group level) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a = position where we are either a) duplicating significant effort, b) = disaccommodating a significant number of authors, and/or c) becoming a = GitHub help desk for those authors that are not familiar with GitHub. That sounds like a very reasonable concern. > I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with = another organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being = useful here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a = GitHub back end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes = back into the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly. Ooh, that sounds interesting! FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you = want to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki = locally", e.g., on : https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Feb 24 16:31:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DEEF130E5E for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:31:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2fR1EQte2HRT for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC99B130E46 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id q128so5855461ljb.11 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:31:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R8kdkSfuRyj4zYoiiVzv76ju/vstZbad5HvhURK/BsM=; b=PWYKCNbyAnAtLEWjzPnN5Naut6XoPsF+ax0smXVwwqIR5OqGtT8H3hu88AOT+pDDMx rM4JyYjMgponFd4/QQOFP5ufrJKWccurmtQ0mAabJknCXhdTrGOastsGWplCCFyYu8xL pXOzITDM90HfOl707ZDCqgAtJPbwvh2zb9t2tApyJN1AhPplYCqXNJIDAuZQovsgwqt8 CyJq8MkRcgQLh1UQOog7lq+1nZYImq4Gx12W9E+N0ZqNKQQ1tZnsuG1eLfax/baol7Gu s1OFo4YoXxHZ9m5Kv6brnhJFbbxAvJGdNAMvppmYDMf4QISgo3k9/4KznQBVj5AqkiwH gipA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R8kdkSfuRyj4zYoiiVzv76ju/vstZbad5HvhURK/BsM=; b=KMS9vIarwHG9KaPTGuqsWRuGgVffupbCuxa7D+zeAI076W/HHYAIYiM4rjfl1yODQt hFBwgbp91U8HwTRYmDkkMY8kCnkAr00HcX9I+FyoUlgB/X2lpRg+QnadghmCEXLx0XvC mxwNSkD4YY+zyhe//Ip21kd58oRD/O3p//nhp95IYOK7zDyamdgmIas0TpIm7vNRnlUV tSooSIb4TOavtbDX4kc3Tg0uGQ2c94pKXAZ1I97i0fB4Kfw6LwrGOa9x+MqEUHgNS+dO vgKIbTFQjCqza4kra8lOPhUrpPnbNDbSW7ZJKtif/NzjXBBB1EHBKtoWj/Y8QhjaEL08 HNYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZOp0CO5VnU4oypnJZB1Ri2xitTfMafcp5zNOaJvkAPb0KVs8/O 1QhsFMHfce2gtZg0PDRKryI+2J/HgSz5G9pAEseLB2aG X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZcLxBJjuQM8fzk+Mn8OYwuQyjS4IYLxN51A8F+aDVmom4R44qDcXLiNXe1OoG7U5xp+qZ7i3PoTKh27dJfuVE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4d7:: with SMTP id a84mr8180591ljf.86.1551054662700; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:31:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> <9BA4771D-58B2-4DE7-B07B-DDBDB83F59AC@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <9BA4771D-58B2-4DE7-B07B-DDBDB83F59AC@mnot.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:30:25 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Heather Flanagan , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032a98b0582ad0e3d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 00:31:10 -0000 --00000000000032a98b0582ad0e3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 3:19 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan > wrote: > > > > I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One o= f > my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with multipl= e > paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or working group > level) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a position where w= e > are either a) duplicating significant effort, b) disaccommodating a > significant number of authors, and/or c) becoming a GitHub help desk for > those authors that are not familiar with GitHub. > > That sounds like a very reasonable concern. > > > I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with = another > organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being useful > here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a GitHub > back end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes back int= o > the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly. > I'd have to see this, but one thing that I think is very important is to be able to see precisely what changes are under consideration, and wikis aren't necessarily that great about that. -Ekr > > Ooh, that sounds interesting! > > FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you > want to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki locally= ", > e.g., on : > https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --00000000000032a98b0582ad0e3d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 3:19 PM Mark = Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote= :


> On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan <rse@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
>
> I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One = of my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with multip= le paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or working grou= p level) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a position where w= e are either a) duplicating significant effort, b) disaccommodating a signi= ficant number of authors, and/or c) becoming a GitHub help desk for those a= uthors that are not familiar with GitHub.

That sounds like a very reasonable concern.

> I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with= another organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being us= eful here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a GitH= ub back end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes back in= to the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly.

<= /div>
I'd have to see this, but one thing that I think is very impo= rtant is to be able to see precisely what changes are under consideration, = and wikis aren't necessarily that great about that.

-Ekr

Ooh, that sounds interesting!

FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you wa= nt to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki locall= y", e.g., on :
=C2=A0 https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--00000000000032a98b0582ad0e3d-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 17:30:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91C3130E9F for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D_af--UYF6wr for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FFC4130EAA for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5241C5ACB; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8XRAhsXp4YU; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.198.42.12] (c-71-231-216-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.231.216.10]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E4FC1C416F; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:00 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F92C4C9A-E9BA-4998-AB11-A1072A524665 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Heather Flanagan X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16D57) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:30:15 -0800 Cc: Mark Nottingham , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1E9B2774-F4B4-4185-A3C6-01284F3B084E@rfc-editor.org> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> <9BA4771D-58B2-4DE7-B07B-DDBDB83F59AC@mnot.net> To: Eric Rescorla Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:30:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail-F92C4C9A-E9BA-4998-AB11-A1072A524665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Feb 24, 2019, at 16:30, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 3:19 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> > On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan wrot= e: >> >=20 >> > I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One o= f my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with multiple= paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or working group l= evel) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a position where we ar= e either a) duplicating significant effort, b) disaccommodating a significan= t number of authors, and/or c) becoming a GitHub help desk for those authors= that are not familiar with GitHub. >>=20 >> That sounds like a very reasonable concern. >>=20 >> > I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with a= nother organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being usefu= l here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a GitHub b= ack end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes back into th= e wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly. >=20 > I'd have to see this, but one thing that I think is very important is to b= e able to see precisely what changes are under consideration, and wikis aren= 't necessarily that great about that. Absolutely agree. If I can=E2=80=99t get that, it really has limited utility= . But, if it=E2=80=99s doing some intelligent, user friendly front ending fo= r GitHub, the changes would be fairly easily seen in the repository. I think= . If it works.=20 There are many reasons I=E2=80=99m looking into this in a smaller environmen= t with fewer existing constraints. If it works like I=E2=80=99m hoping, I=E2= =80=99ll let this group know. -Heather >=20 > -Ekr >>=20 >> Ooh, that sounds interesting! >>=20 >> FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you w= ant to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki locally", e= .g., on : >> https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail-F92C4C9A-E9BA-4998-AB11-A1072A524665 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Feb 24, 2019, at 16:30, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 3= :19 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:


> On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan <rse@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
>
> I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One o= f my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with multiple= paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or working group l= evel) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a position where we ar= e either a) duplicating significant effort, b) disaccommodating a significan= t number of authors, and/or c) becoming a GitHub help desk for those authors= that are not familiar with GitHub.

That sounds like a very reasonable concern.

> I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with a= nother organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being usefu= l here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a GitHub b= ack end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes back into th= e wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly.

<= div>I'd have to see this, but one thing that I think is very important is to= be able to see precisely what changes are under consideration, and wikis ar= en't necessarily that great about that.
=

Absolutely agree. If I can=E2=80=99t get that, it really= has limited utility. But, if it=E2=80=99s doing some intelligent, user frie= ndly front ending for GitHub, the changes would be fairly easily seen in the= repository. I think. If it works. 

There are m= any reasons I=E2=80=99m looking into this in a smaller environment with fewe= r existing constraints. If it works like I=E2=80=99m hoping, I=E2=80=99ll le= t this group know.

-Heather


-Ekr
=
Ooh, that sounds interesting!

FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you wan= t to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki locally", e.g= ., on :
  https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-githu= b@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-gi= thub
= --Apple-Mail-F92C4C9A-E9BA-4998-AB11-A1072A524665-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 17:34:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414ED130EB2 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:33:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZ1KjAodhknF for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1088E130EAE for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id d14so5935012ljl.9 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:33:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ebVUCLdUJ4SyqEyjQsnsf3yS+VB5tqcF8hT/xVvoCrA=; b=pVp3Oo6LXapmlwo+AOGbZongM7JANjWdIglf5v96eIIY6F5/3pwi+3B/q3kjEbXnh0 vWT+kNzGlPmhFRBqZqoTtAXQ2aosx01+r0NaVLl4HHN+iXr0mH6pCgJe5b44bikHoqRD czq+iXhT/2imCpi7mNdYh1Zsyfzx4RVX4fTDT0N4XC+t2zrATKiuDIkXQ6bB+hKYtQOS fr7P4FLH1Dz8ddWQuYaId+amfxP1QVlgWdQkU9aiJubTllQxk2dXYEXsIk5Qu9dBB+M3 G6f5jvgE8vt7D6iV3TtH6jXGjacQ63PFwszEUtXFvRAtOB9Wgn/WbqHeau2zkxJpfKks 74mA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ebVUCLdUJ4SyqEyjQsnsf3yS+VB5tqcF8hT/xVvoCrA=; b=fZOQgDxIpdWk+Zh7xKlf7d9MKBGmqSmr/pBBVGaMnQub6XBK/vvjgGQ6LcW/XeJPVP Tx1oKhaK7HgXMACMGJ3z0RFI9fhuLdW2abBvqNLedCMwErj/ppK2vB3b/xFCzO6pxik0 sanvoRFeYZUt8ePtwkSYs6rUS8g3SB6fJVuDyltseKjp5khjJaT/LWFbLRWZRJlwwKwA GBBzueZArCR3XxbeLxR+/znxeuskDjxekjfH9t4mR5x0Qa7bKkQsMPDW4uxjZZtHur7t /uBEEhfIf/DKOvaBoe3gFLYdemifH+qluNsY+VrOVGGk2Ax0h55Z5DylysCUpoHSsJze fDyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYL3w4xcZdVM47i1bq8OuXWn8S7Lg2UaVhguEU3pWM3+pkBqU3I km1ZzjfzzJLtnbsIbOV0KbyHjJcwBKdN1HWBZl5gXrqY X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaJXD4mnDbdbBZdLe3JHSrPgYCE66kvfvu1kc/VesEuDdYLdp9J28ZiqHlm0mNzLM8S1iuk/xGScohQj1L3zf4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:965a:: with SMTP id z26mr7449397ljh.59.1551058434053; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:33:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> <9BA4771D-58B2-4DE7-B07B-DDBDB83F59AC@mnot.net> <1E9B2774-F4B4-4185-A3C6-01284F3B084E@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <1E9B2774-F4B4-4185-A3C6-01284F3B084E@rfc-editor.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:33:14 -0800 Message-ID: To: Heather Flanagan Cc: Mark Nottingham , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fd005e0582adeead" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:33:59 -0000 --000000000000fd005e0582adeead Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 5:30 PM Heather Flanagan wrote= : > > > On Feb 24, 2019, at 16:30, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 3:19 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> >> >> > On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan >> wrote: >> > >> > I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One >> of my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with >> multiple paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or >> working group level) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a >> position where we are either a) duplicating significant effort, b) >> disaccommodating a significant number of authors, and/or c) becoming a >> GitHub help desk for those authors that are not familiar with GitHub. >> >> That sounds like a very reasonable concern. >> >> > I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with= another >> organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being useful >> here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a GitHub >> back end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes back in= to >> the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly. >> > > I'd have to see this, but one thing that I think is very important is to > be able to see precisely what changes are under consideration, and wikis > aren't necessarily that great about that. > > > Absolutely agree. If I can=E2=80=99t get that, it really has limited util= ity. But, > if it=E2=80=99s doing some intelligent, user friendly front ending for Gi= tHub, the > changes would be fairly easily seen in the repository. I think. If it > works. > Hmm... The critical point is *proposed* changes, not change history. I don't think Github's wiki provides a review tool, for instance. -Ekr > There are many reasons I=E2=80=99m looking into this in a smaller environ= ment with > fewer existing constraints. If it works like I=E2=80=99m hoping, I=E2=80= =99ll let this > group know. > > -Heather > > > -Ekr > >> >> Ooh, that sounds interesting! >> >> FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you >> want to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki locall= y", >> e.g., on : >> https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >> > --000000000000fd005e0582adeead Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 5:30 PM Heath= er Flanagan <rse@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

=


On Sun, Feb 24, 2019= at 3:19 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:


> On 25 Feb 2019, at 10:16 am, Heather Flanagan <rse@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
>
> I do think we need to give this another go, though not right now. One = of my biggest concerns is that we (the RFC Editor) could end up with multip= le paths for AUTH48. Not everyone (either at the individual or working grou= p level) will want to use GitHub, and we could end up in a position where w= e are either a) duplicating significant effort, b) disaccommodating a signi= ficant number of authors, and/or c) becoming a GitHub help desk for those a= uthors that are not familiar with GitHub.

That sounds like a very reasonable concern.

> I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with= another organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end up being us= eful here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits and a GitH= ub back end to store all the changes (and mirror any GitHub changes back in= to the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly.

<= /div>
I'd have to see this, but one thing that I think is very impo= rtant is to be able to see precisely what changes are under consideration, = and wikis aren't necessarily that great about that.

Absolutely agree. If I can=E2=80=99t g= et that, it really has limited utility. But, if it=E2=80=99s doing some int= elligent, user friendly front ending for GitHub, the changes would be fairl= y easily seen in the repository. I think. If it works.=C2=A0

Hmm... The critical point is *proposed* chang= es, not change history. I don't think Github's wiki provides a revi= ew tool, for instance.

-Ekr


=
There are many reasons I=E2=80=99m looking into this in a smalle= r environment with fewer existing constraints. If it works like I=E2=80=99m= hoping, I=E2=80=99ll let this group know.

-Heathe= r


-Ekr

Ooh, that sounds interesting!

FWIW Github wikis are backed by git -- although they may not do what you wa= nt to do (since their source is markdown). See "Clone this wiki locall= y", e.g., on :
=C2=A0 https://github.com/httpwg/wiki/wiki

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--000000000000fd005e0582adeead-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 20:10:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FF7130F18 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:10:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mit.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVAgh8N896WJ for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr750099.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.75.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFE6212D4E7 for ; 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ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of mit.edu designates 18.9.28.11 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.9.28.11; helo=outgoing.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (18.9.28.11) by DM3NAM03FT019.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.82.197) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1643.13 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 04:10:02 +0000 Received: from kduck.mit.edu (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x1P49t4A023747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 23:09:57 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 22:09:55 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Eric Rescorla CC: Ted Lemon , RFC Interest , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7SPR01MB6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 04:10:15 -0000 On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 02:15:14PM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 8:42 AM Ted Lemon wrote: > > > So the theme I’m hearing here is that the github problem tracking tools > > suck for RFC editing, which is no surprise to me. Am I hearing that > > correctly? > > > Perhaps. The premise behind this WG (and I think experience) is that at I can't answer Ted's question because I'm not sure I'm interpreting it properly. Are the "github problem tracking tools" supposed to be "github issues", "github pull requests", both, or neither? (We did use pull requests during the aforementioned experiment, but I would describe that as just being an easy way to get a webpage that we can attach comments to and not a normal github pull request workflow. > least for some WGs, the Github tools are pretty good -- or at least better > than what people were using before -- for developing the IDs that are the > input for RFCs. I recognize that there are people who don't seem to feel > that way, but I don't think that that's useful to debate here. I agree -- I think the premise here is that we assume as a precondition that there is some WG for which github is a useful way to work on I-Ds, and we ignore the other WGs. -Ben > As a number of people have noted, I don't think the way we used Github for > the final copy-editing and typesetting phase of the RFCs worked that well > the one time we tried it. From my perspective, there were a number of > problems there, but the main one was intermixing copy-editing changes > (initiated by the RPC) with substantive changes (initiated by the author, > WG chairs, and ADs). The result was that the RPC was exposed to a lot of > churn as we worked through those issues. With that said, I did find that > having a tool which allowed one to track every change initiated by RPC and > respond to it was very helpful. At present, we do this by using two tools > together (diffs plus NEW/OLD), but this is a fairly clumsy system compared > to a tool like Pull Requests, let alone a top-tier tool like Phabricator. > As an analogy, open source projects used to mostly do code review by > examining diffs and then commenting on them, and most systems have now > moved to integrated diff and review tools instead. > > -Ekr > > > > > What about the actual revision control system? Was that a problem, or > > was it the other stuff that didn’t work? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-and-github mailing list > > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > From nobody Sun Feb 24 20:25:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E92130ED8 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:25:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8iQdTn8Y_NFX for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ED21130ED7 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id a48so9070128qtb.4 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:25:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=StLcs0yC6Sk76HozYr25cCoySz6PgLYnNbQVv9b8gh0=; b=1pm0yH/v+0Ea9UY74tEygEgo8cXoCCxoKVyF6Iews1GEQ6IRb+rrp9Tl0FPEM5zBEA KIfuELq1ticwZKXP401BeF5RsFuYGfubV7TKSaZJUc7Vc6UOwt67KAYD4nx0KVRAJqCA QeO0I87WA2dOy2sUiQaNnlhpN634+IwcsdCmxCR3zEZPFJtkkELPA19TZOS6RVGlCtA2 Xzr0sbUDZivfAtK/dy9+GbLjEJgt8lp8IoseFBo6OGTnyIn2DZG+4vG6wqTvu7ycCgvj szK8iBILym0qN1dbS4g9BuW95b6xR3aB8CULutUZBIi0dSqg1+7tsA8qx1AM4jCMmln7 k6Ng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=StLcs0yC6Sk76HozYr25cCoySz6PgLYnNbQVv9b8gh0=; b=gZsm5r8q+u7hDiY99c8gKdXbAN/JCOkTnFn1M0RSR70dmzI2AiFciOKw7foWnxAd7b xt0YJC9RqgRTEhQM270Wc8DTDwbA3uXBRHHxInQN2E4JE3hDajF85kpSlvtL/DEzHWQF q/NyjytykzKNNZ+oHX/cKrq4hpGMBMcEkpbaccloBmfThBrEjboSWT5Q4IAJdc0JMs9Q sB34Ox71swwLFmRki/YkCZRULphP3kiAcgNwEah4hRu848SkEfjuNgL49L6tVMZnOeaU fR9JFZkRuP73eP6JdT3C3wgUDi83C+C/nWks6dFZMDk6Bt66tIXWmWVnPC8oF9ZlOgaZ Clrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZkRU6s2LZPipXGKOwoc8vQ4BzdRjKBIYY6DPGWU013hnwQBwXF wDP7vgjF0saR9Si5d3eBOmE3rmWNO8WROw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbqicAcvT66hJJjJL4ys3h8ZMgv2mmYJsk91JkxidgTmI8L/q62lZs+bd34izm3AYAMIQh/+Q== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2314:: with SMTP id a20mr2618546qta.127.1551068733396; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j9sm3446777qtb.30.2019.02.24.20.25.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:25:33 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 23:25:27 -0500 Cc: Eric Rescorla , RFC Interest , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 04:25:37 -0000 I=E2=80=99m mostly whining about the issue tracker, which I don=E2=80=99t = find all that useful. It=E2=80=99s better than nothing, but easy to = understand why it didn=E2=80=99t fit into the RFC editor workflow. We = haven=E2=80=99t actually used the github pull request workflow in the = documents I=E2=80=99ve edited. If it=E2=80=99s similar to the = atlassian workflow, it=E2=80=99s possible that it=E2=80=99s perfectly = fine and I should shut up. :) From nobody Mon Feb 25 01:15:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0CC12D4E8 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:15:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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IGZvciBtYW55IGRpZmZlcmVudCB3b3JrZmxvd3MuIEVhY2ggV0cgdGhhdCB1c2VzIGdpdGh1YiBz byBmYXIgaGFkIA0KdG8gZmlndXJlIG91dCBob3cgdG8gZG8gdGhhdDsgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgV0cg aXMgKGF0IGxlYXN0IGluIHBhcnQpIGFib3V0IA0KbWFraW5nIHRoYXQgZWFzaWVyIGZvciBmdXR1 cmUgV0dzLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLCAgIE1hcnRpbi4NCg== From nobody Mon Feb 25 07:18:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D070712F1AB for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.018, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by 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hrmqySF+n3S+yjmuTbOoc6uOSvVv9igSnoG2gzJYWjJPDazT042lcMChKAxM3eZIZ3jI 7QezzVbUz14HdzF3BC5gf8rmF6sxQs30APigRjArzg3K+V5H7tDPxHMd1eW+sCVAIsbi O+7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubWWMzWRTMpBvFDZHCvkc8Ghle2fjgUC++P9OOkwWhJnyXHFdj1 UTVkrNUZsRsrNYtDF0x3uk0lc23NgPSfInpeTiaKow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaDoqNFb7W+QrDrmLulypV4BLgIjVWATmghAQvOZzofhnyXpBr8AeyDgPtluJI+d6XGzB2rrG/IEdUD9Fktuhg= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7685:: with SMTP id j5mr11991494otl.150.1551107902712; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 07:18:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:18:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , Eric Rescorla , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008cb79a0582b973cd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:18:26 -0000 --0000000000008cb79a0582b973cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really easy to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to serve is not easy. My experience of the OpenPGP working group was that the contributions were quickly reduced to the set of people who were familiar with Git and that set of people wasn't enough to sustain the group. Workflow tools are great. We can surely do better than email for workflow. But if people want to use Github, They have to be prepared to at the very least write up a description of how to use it. On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 11:25 PM Ted Lemon wrote: > I=E2=80=99m mostly whining about the issue tracker, which I don=E2=80=99t= find all that > useful. It=E2=80=99s better than nothing, but easy to understand why it= didn=E2=80=99t > fit into the RFC editor workflow. We haven=E2=80=99t actually used the gi= thub pull > request workflow in the documents I=E2=80=99ve edited. If it=E2=80=99s = similar to the > atlassian workflow, it=E2=80=99s possible that it=E2=80=99s perfectly fin= e and I should > shut up. :) > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > --0000000000008cb79a0582b973cd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wha= t worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really easy to = respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well thought o= ut in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to serve is not eas= y.=C2=A0

My experience of= the OpenPGP working group was that the contributions were quickly reduced = to the set of people who were familiar with Git and that set of people wasn= 't enough to sustain the group.

Workflow tools are great. We can surely do better than email for= workflow. But if people want to use Github, They have to be prepared to at= the very least write up a description of how to use it.



On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 11:25 PM = Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> = wrote:
I=E2=80= =99m mostly whining about the issue tracker, which I don=E2=80=99t find all= that useful.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It=E2=80=99s better than nothing, but easy to und= erstand why it didn=E2=80=99t fit into the RFC editor workflow. We haven=E2= =80=99t actually used the github pull request workflow in the documents I= =E2=80=99ve edited.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If it=E2=80=99s similar to the atlassian wo= rkflow, it=E2=80=99s possible that it=E2=80=99s perfectly fine and I should= shut up. :)

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-intere= st@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/= rfc-interest
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rfc-editor.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;rfc-editor.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of mit.edu designates 18.9.28.11 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.9.28.11; helo=outgoing.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (18.9.28.11) by CO1NAM03FT037.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.80.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1643.13 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:20:37 +0000 Received: from kduck.mit.edu (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x1PFKWt6025754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 25 Feb 2019 10:20:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:20:32 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" CC: RFC Interest Message-ID: <20190225152032.GK78133@kduck.mit.edu> References: <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR01MB4485 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:20:44 -0000 On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:18:12AM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really easy > to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well > thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to serve > is not easy. > > My experience of the OpenPGP working group was that the contributions were > quickly reduced to the set of people who were familiar with Git and that > set of people wasn't enough to sustain the group. > > Workflow tools are great. We can surely do better than email for workflow. > But if people want to use Github, They have to be prepared to at the very > least write up a description of how to use it. And thus, here we are, with a WG chartered to write up a description of how to use it. Maybe we should switch gears and focus on working on that... -Ben From nobody Mon Feb 25 09:03:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0956130F27 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:03:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kR6kPOXMq2af for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFA7B130F16 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id v10so8079629lji.3 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:02:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FIPEp1fnEyG6KhUPIWs+6TDG6NtemKZP9oI2P13nu2I=; b=t8VWmssi4pfAarLc0R6ITj4+uyqhhTIUFZrHCmPkvFJiiBrvgCZKnTA3U1Gl/OMtCg F71Gwa1XCFb+dBBoDgJ/3mNSj0XTLJfsml/aIBSAAgkFk8sB14kP6/j6q9+G6xkJMPxD FR+vnhfLKYV1WWMcopbxG9FSDcf5wrzVzA1XWFhLj9HxKup+O/DOstczKFKonic/frjW soSBIL4qKm6QzyVIoJ1JmIBO3Po5lxc18unXu0Dv4c81lhlAsGDlW2+tqf2QRZwpxQr9 rH9ojgDqfS2/6Fc1yiFo0Kadcft7T2lg8HCASI8NBIuN8o7hO/h4e1uZholwLwB7RNaZ FQOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FIPEp1fnEyG6KhUPIWs+6TDG6NtemKZP9oI2P13nu2I=; b=cOcgBlS/dP0UR0oPFIwtFkSy6+ZO2l3CeHmRVdBa5AhgGag0z5VkA6gJJrf6l+SIV5 3C3DC9ayQVcjUUHDLNmSCkhCwSvj9jWnpXnPp3b0tq/wYaX/xmDEg1z5nfd/oQxpQvg1 05dQ7Ku/gnjPTkDYPPtSLtqAbczUsY3TGCnOdpFdAShJ7+ezLsY45lDxFxsUnQ7f8oG0 YEHoEkPLqJJ60ScFCi1ScleaY1U3rb63DccWoitjttIqJVhNw88/kiS3luo/xHTQOHgl y+drzwaXNFuRmu3ZvRvz04zRLbl9A1FPWfdRdiSczszLQgJFWJFpcJtYMH+HUSn2TpCV R0BQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuamhcLDW6kEWK5YV06kTx7VHBOarCyJuzaAxYSbDBE8w1zu4kCz ufJ7ru9xjYjLXHsJCSc67ZPkPSnOEh8GJJY8cBQlMw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IasgOKnzX+cog5xpGs7lYqiqOXkhmCTLveR3STVx1NquL2TJLHVAPHUV68SUZVLlA3S2H1UuMoCknwkxrEpzJ4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:47c4:: with SMTP id u187mr4778556lja.10.1551114176539; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:02:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:02:18 -0800 Message-ID: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: Ted Lemon , Benjamin Kaduk , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ff8050582bae9d4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:03:02 -0000 --0000000000007ff8050582bae9d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really eas= y > to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well > thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to serve > is not easy. > Note that you can actually respond to Github comments in email. -Ekr > My experience of the OpenPGP working group was that the contributions wer= e > quickly reduced to the set of people who were familiar with Git and that > set of people wasn't enough to sustain the group. > > Workflow tools are great. We can surely do better than email for workflow= . > But if people want to use Github, They have to be prepared to at the very > least write up a description of how to use it. > > > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 11:25 PM Ted Lemon wrote: > >> I=E2=80=99m mostly whining about the issue tracker, which I don=E2=80=99= t find all that >> useful. It=E2=80=99s better than nothing, but easy to understand why i= t didn=E2=80=99t >> fit into the RFC editor workflow. We haven=E2=80=99t actually used the g= ithub pull >> request workflow in the documents I=E2=80=99ve edited. If it=E2=80=99s= similar to the >> atlassian workflow, it=E2=80=99s possible that it=E2=80=99s perfectly fi= ne and I should >> shut up. :) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >> > --0000000000007ff8050582bae9d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phill= ip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallamba= ker.com> wrote:
What worries me abou= t the Github workflow is that it is really really easy to respond to an ema= il. Learning how to use a tool that was not well thought out in the first p= lace for a purpose it was not intended to serve is not easy.=C2=A0

Note that you can actually respond to G= ithub comments in email.

-Ekr

=

My experien= ce of the OpenPGP working group was that the contributions were quickly red= uced to the set of people who were familiar with Git and that set of people= wasn't enough to sustain the group.

Workflow tools are great. We can= surely do better than email for workflow. But if people want to use Github= , They have to be prepared to at the very least write up a description of h= ow to use it.



On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 11:25 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>= ; wrote:
I=E2=80= =99m mostly whining about the issue tracker, which I don=E2=80=99t find all= that useful.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It=E2=80=99s better than nothing, but easy to und= erstand why it didn=E2=80=99t fit into the RFC editor workflow. We haven=E2= =80=99t actually used the github pull request workflow in the documents I= =E2=80=99ve edited.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If it=E2=80=99s similar to the atlassian wo= rkflow, it=E2=80=99s possible that it=E2=80=99s perfectly fine and I should= shut up. :)

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-intere= st@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/= rfc-interest
--0000000000007ff8050582bae9d4-- From nobody Mon Feb 25 11:14:41 2019 Return-Path: <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E84130F8E for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:14:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4rK0vWsWU_tW for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-64.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-64.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 073E2130F96 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:14:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1551122047; h=From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:References:To:Date:Feedback-ID; bh=aFtSsJlMkIDt8sgwd9PGu9XYxke3tFjpyUSIK0V3GIc=; b=KWqnH0VdTkuOoAry7MUPSOlBGgi0BDDgxfcOZl1nl6hLLPS1nR2HYLrteiCQ+ii3 hTGbaTJLV51sqdYErpRuN6C0PlFhLlI3di49pxvXm+WTjB5l18Dj8GdhYWJ68qNZBtN AbcjPjk2cMRKCZApLo0p67S+NIJ+WgvjLtPT/4ic= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_15BB46EC-B62E-4634-866C-3141634FAAB9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Message-ID: <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 19:14:07 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.25-54.240.8.64 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 19:14:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_15BB46EC-B62E-4634-866C-3141634FAAB9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii All, I just posted a -00 for an idea I've been working on.=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00 = It only lightly touches `git` in its ability to use `git tag` to extract = a document's next version number, this being consistent with Martin's i-d-template work. Still, = I'm wondering if the 'git' WG might provide a home for this work, or if there is a better = place for it. I wish I could present this work in Prague but, unfortunately, I'm = leaving Prague Thursday morning. I mentioned this before here: = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/yqlmbElFCWtZfYAWtANi= asTpTq8 Cheers, Kent > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt > Date: February 25, 2019 at 1:59:00 PM EST > To: "Kent Watsen" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Kent Watsen and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation > Revision: 00 > Title: eXtract or Insert artwork And source code = to/from Xml (xiax) > Document date: 2019-02-25 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 26 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.= txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes motivations behind and solutions for tooling > to automate the extraction/insertion of artwork and source code to/ > from `rfc2xml` documents. >=20 > While much may appear to be working, the author believes that, in > order to be such automation to be maximally useful, it is necessary > to solicit broad input from the community (co-authors are welcomed, > both on the draft and the tool). >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 --Apple-Mail=_15BB46EC-B62E-4634-866C-3141634FAAB9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii All,

I = just posted a -00 for an idea I've been working on. 

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-0= 0

It only = lightly touches `git` in its ability to use `git tag` to extract a = document's next version
number, this being = consistent with Martin's i-d-template work.  Still, I'm wondering = if the
'git' WG might provide a home for this work, = or if there is a better place for it.

I wish I could present this work in Prague but, = unfortunately, I'm leaving Prague Thursday

Cheers,
Kent



Begin forwarded = message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt
Date: = February 25, 2019 at 1:59:00 PM = EST
To: = "Kent Watsen" <kent+ietf@watsen.net>


A new version = of I-D, draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Kent Watsen and posted to the
IETF= repository.

Name: = draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation
Revision: 00
Title:= = eXtract or Insert artwork And source code to/from Xml (xiax)
Document date: 2019-02-25
Group:= = Individual Submission
Pages: 26
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-aut= omation-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automat= ion/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-0= 0
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-au= tomation


Abstract:
  This document describes motivations behind and = solutions for tooling
  to automate the = extraction/insertion of artwork and source code to/
=   from `rfc2xml` documents.

=   While much may appear to be working, the author believes = that, in
  order to be such automation to be = maximally useful, it is necessary
  to solicit = broad input from the community (co-authors are welcomed,
=   both on the draft and the tool).




Please note that = it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


= --Apple-Mail=_15BB46EC-B62E-4634-866C-3141634FAAB9-- From nobody Mon Feb 25 12:43:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C30A130F5F for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:43:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.018, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9-rG4z8gyWR for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-f172.google.com (mail-oi1-f172.google.com [209.85.167.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52B5313102C for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-f172.google.com with SMTP id s16so8429961oih.9 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:43:27 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q0Yxkr4FRWlJ7HrAFJxfkZvix5bRLqwz5EpLR4zHzos=; b=hmWuK8vTsgSOnqwpiv8ZUY9cyvg05VM5DzLnYteaaljwZiRTZdXT7dWG1mYY7dceni V4RweXVK7hc5HMDulVIl43pm60FTFkVvSSvl2SyAh09zkEUqm8pX1w7tEgp1Ccvq8zW4 XfV2JH6qcuzZ0odiMS+gSvlGxPvYwNg2H2qNjzw9pSlCwS+DNKQvJcThCauN2Vob/VPU v/iZGtijEKAFNIYl5UPzbmk4k8Dq5VmhOD659sAw7Jt643VDzpZGgdi+uE46RR4wW24P 61a1FrM6ch32MCpcHru0yGdcxjPDfFSPtAR7KaOv5SmknH+B1FWssOFWgUVv5elItgI/ DSRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaCYXWNqCDsbXTu6ZQsAjL5uC0iwkKCBMBDFgzcrtFz/M/1FNXB 8hFBaZyEF24N5XofCQtyV33wxm1nWRD+SjrHjB4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaUO5GAp+j1qjb479un/rdM5NXALvBSLQnffqOj/uDet5U/p+aYFkIT0mY2nWFydyH7liNxH0z/JROm4NP9+qs= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4e50:: with SMTP id c77mr156146oib.100.1551127406477; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:43:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:43:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Ted Lemon , Benjamin Kaduk , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001086360582bdfeb1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 20:43:29 -0000 --0000000000001086360582bdfeb1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker < > phill@hallambaker.com> wrote: > >> What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really >> easy to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well >> thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to serve >> is not easy. >> > > Note that you can actually respond to Github comments in email. > > -Ekr > Which I did and the response was 'make a pluto requerst' or something. The problem was a bit more than that. The conversation ended up fragmented across the two systems. So what was supposed to help the process meant that the discussion and the process went out of sync. --0000000000001086360582bdfeb1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com&g= t; wrote:
What worries me about the Github = workflow is that it is really really easy to respond to an email. Learning = how to use a tool that was not well thought out in the first place for a pu= rpose it was not intended to serve is not easy.=C2=A0

Note that you can actually respond to Github comment= s in email.

-Ekr

=
Which I did and the = response was 'make a pluto requerst' or something.=C2=A0

The problem was a bit more than tha= t. The conversation ended up fragmented across the two systems. So what was= supposed to help the process meant that the discussion and the process wen= t out of sync.
=

=
--0000000000001086360582bdfeb1-- From nobody Mon Feb 25 12:47:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56E7130F82 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9HP4BNQKmyAK for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x641.google.com (mail-pl1-x641.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::641]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3CA3130F5F for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x641.google.com with SMTP id g37so2236054plb.5 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2yUTxD5rPiauXATs5AGyp3CCu/B/5CafZQ3ugrIv53o=; b=V30yWrwwcULJqhVmUG9NMN9PRqHLhK67oNut8/Ve8Z1BJGwlmjnPoud6MgQUzA8emH 705SPB2x0SEcHe4ShYev/F3EkJjtwn8VWsJIGmh16UPqAGpWDiTfs9OOdbhtVuB+IlkO ol4Gye6lP/440LKptGSxH8fACcAthyNTtvQFrQVxGdKOFw9eZ1lzQwgU7bVzvRLi8a3I 0Q+5zO9Kcw9nKWApnpl6SZbBV53RQsAuJ2z30Pqd5uVob/vrxmjsRFn0Q7phF5ZlB6y6 WKcTnI0lsAtrs1PnC50R1sNw6yiAit8qnSf+dR3VGZmkaRj5pg5m7DWEQTi0NW3vDuN4 heaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2yUTxD5rPiauXATs5AGyp3CCu/B/5CafZQ3ugrIv53o=; b=KVfQL1HUSJ6mPoHRW6MK5hLWBvvkvvY+GiXCri0J2oxfk8ACEY2eUj1Zw07Cv+HUIB 1urw9hr6IUSQ28h++olGiM93oNKT374HIOEaOF73cYIFgJeuQu9EITg9higo8IhNNLK7 hi2GAtn1b8yFREiMOfiTj/OpzJ2dv7rp7gm0ypBHLkKH1V+R8MXhat1L5w40Q7o/Muxw Agztx5yBtaO94EjUAXnT32t6iYX3prwqoeSQAj4HEcOvsPdXkWj6rAWgDFfoRvPnCo6T rzTAyV6eB0SfHpKtqq04+Rwa1c0ENdHHAUTgGppA6tL7eUQhr23l8Xo102ioehNkufCD kwaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYpCtdrPb6vDEbLUrLINcksu2c/mQC0awpqVXduRuMH4vDB6jtL PAzeEPzwDsCujbI0msiW+Po= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY5vs2cs+aNipsuCacZzJLe2WtZ53fkl7gVbe6hvGvO5P8IQk1exL3S1T+npjrqS3WSLkvoxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:f24:: with SMTP id 33mr5989320ply.47.1551127658406; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.198.42.38] (c-71-231-216-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [71.231.216.10]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g6sm15753463pgc.22.2019.02.25.12.47.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:36 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: heather flanagan In-Reply-To: <20190225152032.GK78133@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:47:35 -0800 Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <48EB3FA6-23B9-4B97-93F3-EA5ADC9BE327@gmail.com> References: <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> <20190225152032.GK78133@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 20:47:41 -0000 > On Feb 25, 2019, at 7:20 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:18:12AM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really = easy >> to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well >> thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to = serve >> is not easy. >>=20 >> My experience of the OpenPGP working group was that the contributions = were >> quickly reduced to the set of people who were familiar with Git and = that >> set of people wasn't enough to sustain the group. >>=20 >> Workflow tools are great. We can surely do better than email for = workflow. >> But if people want to use Github, They have to be prepared to at the = very >> least write up a description of how to use it. >=20 > And thus, here we are, with a WG chartered to write up a description = of how > to use it. >=20 > Maybe we should switch gears and focus on working on that=E2=80=A6 I think that=E2=80=99s a good plan (and will remove rfc-interest from = additional discussion; it was good to include that list initially, but I = think the focus needs to shift to the ietf-and-github list). I=E2=80=99ll = be subscribing to the ietf-and-github list shortly, and encourage others = to do so as well if they are curious/interested in how GitHub might = impact future workflow for IETF working groups. I=E2=80=99ve moved rfc-interest to bcc. -Heather From nobody Mon Feb 25 12:55:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7727130F5F for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:55:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id faGGhK0pn8bY for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E5EE130F9A for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id d24so8444219ljc.12 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:55:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hoMHiU9+58oZW/xjWcubTQyKf9Y5LTRYNaK51jHluxs=; b=TuJ+keP8fnjJzVGtHxbwuEqQK+YbbAjsQ5UpwRL0aVnqT0cfRoas9lKkWue0CMvScP m2lNBH74o5QgGPoSQel4mbv9t/QexowOsny2NTMFzTwzF1HK7qffZ9JFzBomXXEZO27M QnemTCzPrdaa+jsaxumWDa5QjfPAhZOPrtryEDD04eY9Z6C3siEQeVhJ2V3WOD81mVLB Eculql5tFvmr04GT9/vLc9ehjOejaTtiYgXaQIzVUblV/D/TPCNKCTwsBNO2lDx8GJLn TvP+qZYkydB7v8fLkWlxcFw1GbqhOtUVF169W3ENnBSdT45w5a4v8vFPwn2bJY+TWepF ycsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hoMHiU9+58oZW/xjWcubTQyKf9Y5LTRYNaK51jHluxs=; b=uPALgZgkCKsa0cowoGwQyr5NmBsM/KdX1tzhhGPBod95MB++hrw7HxKZkKndGr6aCa nSb2vXo5a7X8SOU8rbJu9Snm6wI1cvyLxcVPPsMqXiSJXC+q4XPrH6oHc9yws3YafTeX vyDuwI4HeouHoS1GhXwttHuHQZ4HxBnIBmfuaEPYSr7Zn/gkTZB4rxE+100pAUmxuP4Z R+WPp5t8ewFuWg7f2hY0QzmDUsdzWhIPUOiQCBNdVCfBghg+CAJOck8juEMQA6buGnDf LC75GoyYIaDui+gGduzPzuyKKQ04J4l4n1WT1sletcqf2NyX5QsYrBhTcvNRyHNuo6AI 31hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYko9RbP8vZ1mZQOOZXjEqNLVTwElbpVKDceMi5syoVXDk7dI+W UjoZbxCkTJr7inhsY9/OIcZU5k2Y9QUMKSnXlx3Zww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYDwcnonW6qd4S5o+G0I6GDnuNsp+shzW+++99epiN+w22Y6OlDNw12YWpXfFQiJICv2gphsanDlA8sOEASHvQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:47c4:: with SMTP id u187mr5333884lja.10.1551128148558; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:55:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:55:10 -0800 Message-ID: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: Ted Lemon , Benjamin Kaduk , Heather Flanagan , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004bd99f0582be2afe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 20:55:53 -0000 --0000000000004bd99f0582be2afe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:43 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker < >> phill@hallambaker.com> wrote: >> >>> What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really >>> easy to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not well >>> thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to serve >>> is not easy. >>> >> >> Note that you can actually respond to Github comments in email. >> >> -Ekr >> > > Which I did and the response was 'make a pluto requerst' or something. > I don't know what you did, but I regularly respond to comments via e-mail and it works fine; the email gets incorporated into the thread. -Ekr > The problem was a bit more than that. The conversation ended up fragmented > across the two systems. So what was supposed to help the process meant that > the discussion and the process went out of sync. > > > --0000000000004bd99f0582be2afe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:43 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com&= gt; wrote:


On Mo= n, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On M= on, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
=
What worries me about the Github workflow is= that it is really really easy to respond to an email. Learning how to use = a tool that was not well thought out in the first place for a purpose it wa= s not intended to serve is not easy.=C2=A0
Note that you can actually respond to Github comments in email.=

-Ekr

Which I did and the response was 'make a pluto req= uerst' or something.=C2=A0

I don't know what you did, but I regularly respond to comments vi= a e-mail and it works fine; the email gets incorporated into the thread.

-Ekr


The pro= blem was a bit more than that. The conversation ended up fragmented across = the two systems. So what was supposed to help the process meant that the di= scussion and the process went out of sync.


--0000000000004bd99f0582be2afe-- From nobody Mon Feb 25 14:52:19 2019 Return-Path: <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A48131154 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:52:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2qQMPal4eiGv for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41BF11310F5 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:52:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1551135134; h=From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Feedback-ID; bh=39nnuPixmdCAd9FOyZdrx6kUxZDjCpEkwYVyIMJHytQ=; b=EK+LlzP+MPe/cQp4rKzgVYKz37pqebB9woYjErkNZ2rdImDczwE0pEdn1Gnj87Sw O5B7B8C2Bar+9v2mpgmDRd9G0TmtB0/DwySa4Xv/1LfZUf/p+OxFbG/2v6M7Wx9gKw/ FuvRQLXAdI8+1PgdKjGcJ1V7+b3WG47FqMjHCl/A= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_162D3E5E-EB5C-4D12-8EDE-F4D563108111" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:52:13 +0000 References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest In-Reply-To: <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.25-54.240.8.96 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:52:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_162D3E5E-EB5C-4D12-8EDE-F4D563108111 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ugh, there's an embarrassing typo in the Abstract, so much for = last-minute edits ;) - I just posted a -01 to fix this FWIW, an earlier version of the tool keyed off the presence of = "originalSrc" attributes to drive extractions and, by doing so, could extract content regardless = if `xiax` or "prep tool" inserted it. Moving to the "xiax-block" lost this = behavior, but I plan add back support for also extracting artwork/sourcecode without an = associated xiax-block entry, thus able to extract all such content, regardless how placed, = albeit without any of the other automation support. Kent > On Feb 25, 2019, at 2:14 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > All, >=20 > I just posted a -00 for an idea I've been working on.=20 >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00 = >=20 > It only lightly touches `git` in its ability to use `git tag` to = extract a document's next version > number, this being consistent with Martin's i-d-template work. Still, = I'm wondering if the > 'git' WG might provide a home for this work, or if there is a better = place for it. >=20 > I wish I could present this work in Prague but, unfortunately, I'm = leaving Prague Thursday > morning. I mentioned this before here: = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/yqlmbElFCWtZfYAWtANi= asTpTq8 = >=20 > Cheers, > Kent >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Begin forwarded message: >>=20 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt >> Date: February 25, 2019 at 1:59:00 PM EST >> To: "Kent Watsen" > >>=20 >>=20 >> A new version of I-D, draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Kent Watsen and posted to the >> IETF repository. >>=20 >> Name: draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation >> Revision: 00 >> Title: eXtract or Insert artwork And source code = to/from Xml (xiax) >> Document date: 2019-02-25 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 26 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.= txt = >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation/ = >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00 = >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation = >>=20 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document describes motivations behind and solutions for = tooling >> to automate the extraction/insertion of artwork and source code to/ >> from `rfc2xml` documents. >>=20 >> While much may appear to be working, the author believes that, in >> order to be such automation to be maximally useful, it is necessary >> to solicit broad input from the community (co-authors are welcomed, >> both on the draft and the tool). >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org = . >>=20 >> The IETF Secretariat >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github --Apple-Mail=_162D3E5E-EB5C-4D12-8EDE-F4D563108111 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Ugh, = there's an embarrassing typo in the Abstract, so much for last-minute = edits  ;)
   - I just posted a -01 to fix = this

FWIW, an earlier version of the tool keyed off the presence = of "originalSrc" attributes
to drive extractions = and, by doing so, could extract content regardless if `xiax` = or
"prep tool" inserted it.   Moving to the = "xiax-block" lost this behavior, but I plan add
back = support for also extracting artwork/sourcecode without an associated = xiax-block
entry, thus able to extract all such = content, regardless how placed, albeit without any
of= the other automation support.

Kent


On Feb 25, 2019, at 2:14 PM, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:

All,

I just posted a -00 for an idea I've = been working on. 

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-0= 0

It only = lightly touches `git` in its ability to use `git tag` to extract a = document's next version
number, this being = consistent with Martin's i-d-template work.  Still, I'm wondering = if the
'git' WG might provide a home for this work, = or if there is a better place for it.

I wish I could present = this work in Prague but, unfortunately, I'm leaving Prague = Thursday
morning.   I mentioned this before = here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/yqlmbElFC= WtZfYAWtANiasTpTq8

Cheers,
Kent



Begin = forwarded message:

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt
Date: February 25, 2019 at 1:59:00 PM EST
To: "Kent Watsen" <kent+ietf@watsen.net>


A new version = of I-D, draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Kent Watsen and posted to the
IETF= repository.

Name: = draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation
Revision: 00
Title:= = eXtract or Insert artwork And source code to/from Xml (xiax)
Document date: 2019-02-25
Group:= = Individual Submission
Pages: 26
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-aut= omation-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automat= ion/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-0= 0
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-au= tomation


Abstract:
  This document describes motivations behind and = solutions for tooling
  to automate the = extraction/insertion of artwork and source code to/
=   from `rfc2xml` documents.

=   While much may appear to be working, the author believes = that, in
  order to be such automation to be = maximally useful, it is necessary
  to solicit = broad input from the community (co-authors are welcomed,
=   both on the draft and the tool).




Please note that = it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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D=C3=BCrst = wrote: >=20 > I think adapting an IETF-wide style for formatting/indenting XML would=20= > be very tough. Perhaps, but where XML hits a GitHub workflow (or any other context = where non-specialist tools like diff are used), we'd benefit from some = documented conventions that authors can choose (or not) to adopt. Often, these can be imposed by the CI toolchain, and/or editors, e.g.: https://editorconfig.org Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Feb 25 17:20:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0589712F18C for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:20:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.923 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.923 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nNNYfMhKJw20 for ; 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([2605:a601:a028:986:9942:d86c:3873:9691]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k128sm15153139pfc.34.2019.02.25.18.19.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Feb 2019 18:19:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Bret Jordan In-Reply-To: <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 19:19:30 -0700 Cc: Mark Nottingham , RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1C915A58-926A-4436-84F7-033C77C8CA12@gmail.com> References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <5790F65C-06C3-4F84-AAD7-297A9A42AD38@rfc-editor.org> To: Heather Flanagan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 02:19:35 -0000 > I have a few other ideas percolating that I=E2=80=99m testing out with = another organization (so, not wearing my RSE hat) that may end > up = being useful here. The premise there is a wiki-style front end for edits = and a GitHub back end to store all the changes (and > mirror any GitHub = changes back into the wiki). No idea yet if that idea will fly. This is what I brought up a few weeks back. The ideal solution IMHO = would be something like Google Docs that everyone could easily comment = and provide suggestions in via a browser, where every comment and = suggestion was backed by a git transaction. The document itself would = also be in Git, just rendered in something like Google Docs. =20 This would allow some very interesting and easy work. 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([2605:a601:a028:986:9942:d86c:3873:9691]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b15sm1955187pgd.44.2019.02.25.18.24.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Feb 2019 18:24:59 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_56EA85C5-74F1-439B-9D22-AC6920501BCD" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 19:24:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eric Rescorla , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , Heather Flanagan , Ted Lemon , Benjamin Kaduk To: Phillip Hallam-Baker References: <30098473-a846-4315-b8a6-95a71b26bdbd@evequefou.be> <21B22B74-CE7E-433A-9544-556A0DB61139@fugue.com> <20190223222121.GP69562@kduck.mit.edu> <5D1D9200-ECAC-4DC3-BC76-6A9710E7D7A5@fugue.com> <20190225040954.GH78133@kduck.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] RFC Editor & Github X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 02:25:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_56EA85C5-74F1-439B-9D22-AC6920501BCD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 25, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM Eric Rescorla > wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker = > wrote: > What worries me about the Github workflow is that it is really really = easy to respond to an email. Learning how to use a tool that was not = well thought out in the first place for a purpose it was not intended to = serve is not easy.=20 >=20 > Note that you can actually respond to Github comments in email. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > Which I did and the response was 'make a pluto requerst' or something.=20= >=20 > The problem was a bit more than that. The conversation ended up = fragmented across the two systems. So what was supposed to help the = process meant that the discussion and the process went out of sync. I have seen this as well. You start getting the conversation taking = places all over the place. Bret --Apple-Mail=_56EA85C5-74F1-439B-9D22-AC6920501BCD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 25, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:



On Mon, Feb = 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Mon, Feb = 25, 2019 at 7:18 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
What worries me about the Github = workflow is that it is really really easy to respond to an email. = Learning how to use a tool that was not well thought out in the first = place for a purpose it was not intended to serve is not = easy. 

Note that you can actually respond to = Github comments in email.

-Ekr

Which I did and the response was 'make a pluto = requerst' or something. 

The problem was a bit = more than that. The conversation ended up fragmented across the two = systems. So what was supposed to help the process meant that the = discussion and the process went out of = sync.

I = have seen this as well.  You start getting the conversation taking = places all over the place.

Bret

= --Apple-Mail=_56EA85C5-74F1-439B-9D22-AC6920501BCD-- From nobody Mon Feb 25 21:10:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB4C130E74 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 21:10:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XH-_auk2-mJR for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 21:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64779130E73 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 21:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MVeCF-1gVbTS0drD-00Z1eu; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 06:10:25 +0100 To: Kent Watsen , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 06:10:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0x4rxiKZj+hRVOQB7eJZiM75x3IdFr9kbFLq4AUoZ3xiwV9WtKi Fyrn3QcmdTcNkZLWsC9EC8XO206T438b/36hXKlS/OmE+ecQAgm1Lx4YxTX9db3Btu39+P8 alN9GxZoAJ/Ozrh3y2ObunfqBlYmLe5RoxD/S5aVPmA/iYheIzRdkl0ANL+RAYEfgBpM4Xl WeZkblxNcFhTDwoBPtYOA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:tpZCHmBRX0k=:N7ECldMstEgiS+l1yOlLMc vDh16oIdNWzmoLx2ecQElyAP6+XDeNGSCeIKDKDNunilcC71Qqw/24hHnlZ2qNERhGDT2MkBp z+LDU8mqabpE3OlnlsMAa3GQIbx+BG8/j9GknXjLjiB44AHtLCQYiA4Ie0nkdB8K5xX1abMKT VZU6rreoJmE5ceLAA/kXUj8SNXxS4G2nKhdutEAH9xf924cy7W/bFVPo8x1BPILF8YeMHcnOc 8vUv9EkO+f+dAl9pHUxMxgsysosXM6/yp3LqTk8+BWwpWGGSfSqBOm9vq4ymaO1ze66hPMVfN Lah9b1+cRrrb1bQOh7KvWvsaD+dgCP6kt/IcmVukLrVHV+GvBwHXjnHRwCh91o7Nkb0S/75iY wpv98NGnS86tB429PxPmDnXAPmjOXOqOwk8ABbI9EdjrfBzhQUAj1Kczh68o6GVPLjCVBa6pP Wr+1MaZOE89zvPGoGgsJoo1NzXVeBmsUdnk8/MILxz3iBO4204ahSkav4Y0YFuahzQ2UhCQFd ZcyNqWRdXSPjO5zxpmrLxHO7KIFVTavRqwxJ9hlrV+trzPFEuXx0zhyYeCnltiK9Rjtfkmagb leBDGc4xaB0uua2cMKAq5QGnjmPu3Nfaz2mw7OE04IvLDESStJ3rUctndn4FN7P8/5DLPFWUI 5ldeiOHHDDXq0pBpUnhQm/9+eAAs0xngjqNRfwGmtIc1eQmSvrzbaMhrMbWc/Wc2HyzJq9ac5 OxBIKjKO/2GvprMy3FTUdbYidPHhiiLlxB3PBOganXsgVl085UAHOogX5WEGOZ4IFA2nPCq6z 07KhXjk8k47eeOFip8zsUiYh/GUG2fR5pABndKm9syOsQEznmxNENSVvGdNI1XEl9z+9A5Wf/ 5oNe3eMySwfADITycu01mLYzkpr3z2q8e5nOsy8AjgoO5sEUkpDvFQRhMkwXSHcEAzSiC6yCv FjCo/VkzSyg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 05:10:33 -0000 On 25.02.2019 20:14, Kent Watsen wrote: > All, > > I just posted a -00 for an idea I've been working on. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00 > > It only lightly touches `git` in its ability to use `git tag` to extract > a document's next version > number, this being consistent with Martin's i-d-template work.  Still, > I'm wondering if the > 'git' WG might provide a home for this work, or if there is a better > place for it. > > I wish I could present this work in Prague but, unfortunately, I'm > leaving Prague Thursday > morning.   I mentioned this before here: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/yqlmbElFCWtZfYAWtANiasTpTq8 > > Cheers, > Kent I notice that you seem to propose new extension attributes for stuff you can already do without. See, in particular, https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.artwork.attribute.name https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.sourcecode.attribute.name https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#includingexternal The following discussion about CODE BEGIN etc should also be interesting: Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Feb 26 03:49:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C097130EC0 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 03:49:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9Iy9o1FoJvS for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 03:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF8D4126C01 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 03:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:62398 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gybEm-0000BW-4B; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 03:49:28 -0800 To: Kent Watsen , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:49:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DFaoHIgL0n026rQMuvrpPTBnwPK2Tp6nH" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:49:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --DFaoHIgL0n026rQMuvrpPTBnwPK2Tp6nH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SQaR18BUvDMTl9EJjJH23FjX6vC68rqHM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Kent Watsen , ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest Message-ID: <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> --SQaR18BUvDMTl9EJjJH23FjX6vC68rqHM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kent, On 2019-02-25 23:52, Kent Watsen wrote: > Ugh, there's an embarrassing typo in the Abstract, so much for last-min= ute edits ;) > - I just posted a -01 to fix this >=20 > FWIW, an earlier version of the tool keyed off the presence of > "originalSrc" attributes to drive extractions and, by doing so, could > extract content regardless if `xiax` or "prep tool" inserted it. > Moving to the "xiax-block" lost this behavior, but I plan add back > support for also extracting artwork/sourcecode without an associated > xiax-block entry, thus able to extract all such content, regardless > how placed, albeit without any of the other automation support. For both xml2rfc version 2 , and version 3 (I don't= think you should touch v3 , but that's a separate discussion), I believe you should be using the "name" attribute, not the=20 "src"/"originalSrc" or xiax:src attributes to provide the file names to export to; see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7991#section-2.48.2. The "name" attribute on is also supported in the v2 schema. If there are any specific reasons why you've not used "name" attribute, which is provided with the intention of being used by extraction tools, we should have a discussion and understand why. ---- Some additional comments on the draft (I looked at -01): | =20 | 5. Updates to RFC 7991 | =20 | This section is just a placeholder for now, but it is expected that= | [RFC7991] will need to be modified in order to support some of this= | work. | =20 | At a minimum, [RFC7991] should be updated to support attributes fro= m | other namespaces, such that the `rfc2xml` tool would neither proces= s | nor discard them. Blanket acceptance of unknown attributes would make validation of schema attributes go away. I'm fine with discussing specific new attributes for= specific elements, but not a blanket acceptance of any attributes as vali= d in the input. Accepting wildcard attributes in specific namespaces for in the v3 grammar seems doable (I've just tested a grammar tweak for that). I think this is what you're after, but the text in the draft seems a bit too open-ended. | 7. Previous Work =2E.. | o The RFC Submit [submit] tool has been modified to test YANG | modules contained within I-Ds, and the resulting document page i= n | Datatracker [datatracker] displays a new "Yang Validation" field= | containing a varying color yin-yang symbol (green if no errors, | red if errors) along with counts. This tool is okay for what it= | is, but it neither aids authors between updates nor validates | anything beyond YANG modules. Additional info: The datatracker submission checking for YANG modules was written to be easily extended, exactly for the purpose of adding additional checkers in the future (I'm mentioning this as an additional point in support of generalizing the tool work in this area). | 10. Security Considerations | =20 | 10.1. Automated Execution of Arbitrary Scripts =2E.. | o Allow arbitrary scripts, but don't execute them automatically wh= en | a document is extracted. This solution is appealing as it still= | ensures these scripts were executed on the author's computer at | time of construction, and the scripts themselves can be extracte= d | and audited on the reviewer's computer. If desired, after | auditing a script, a reviewer could choose to manually execute i= t | on their own computer. Creating a generalized solution that would permit packaging of the verifi= cation code in the document seems sooo tempting. But we've seen time and again = that if you make it possible to automate execution of arbitrary code, it will = be expanded to actually do the automation by someone, and then used by bad a= ctors down the road. -1. | =20 | o Don't allow arbitrary scripts but, instead, support parameterize= d | files that declare all the information necessary to construct th= e | command(s) necessary to generate derived views and/or validate | inclusions. I like this better, but it's a much larger apparatus. It might mean buil= ding a registry of validation tools (for yang, the state of the art is such that it seems feasible, but for other content that might not be so easy).= I think it's worth exploring, in any case. Best regards, Henrik --SQaR18BUvDMTl9EJjJH23FjX6vC68rqHM-- --DFaoHIgL0n026rQMuvrpPTBnwPK2Tp6nH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1J8AACgkQTptXS4+7 FxpnTxAAhNoyjYH7bYzkQTCQVbSNugDsib+DWalg9WQzz6FQQAAduIr3pA9OMn15 Dv6YDWTOUu0PB0xJqcLkFTyPJnNQj5PBPMJLmI9UDyvTG78wsJsSMwITwhjW3XtX iIKg4LhOTR/WQUHo6yYXBG2Wq3NDJZjgm7qg6VUBVwxthladczvnVtJdbsNFystj VAbDjZodrWqwa88HyWfGj1yIUk37BD+LpXlwX9VkSrr5b36lY6pY9V8AWSQq4SSo trezMLhUcTGoI3AoKI1iCn7bPSmWAAhA1zG8dUc2R51a/2UU55wf4qjoyr8RtDBF TySqZSg1kPC1hz/6Q6L3nxEbsmgCg6mg9xBemifR5KFkc0rFLaQGViAX7Z39/G7e p+Tr34u8VoHUCfQ+sQB/r/eAom6Dpy5zhTljsejYHT5EQUd/0tuOgGMr9n3AnUbx J4pmw0L9pmsSV44uh/SMRCO1xJIwCp3Spipzny1vTri8CwLo1TvBT6ZTbxu/zYrs QvfOlukD5sIU8rAnWRPTh29BjhDrf4aRdh1Fcc4Oklkr+P2LSHdTq/G9WTFiuXrO wH1h9WMGSlae1Yv3LOgKQs7nfcko1jfViZytkQKUxrD2dfIsf5pIvP4yZuYtgIDR dTx9dl+FvEu1vHap2r844cNhnze0vGf2qh85Lz8S90dJQAKnFGQ= =aweV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DFaoHIgL0n026rQMuvrpPTBnwPK2Tp6nH-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 08:24:58 2019 Return-Path: <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832AC128CB7 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:24:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xF_3k61VYFBn for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 988AB1276D0 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:24:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1551198294; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=HQnnG5QnV99os7N54WDbApMxmOglPPi1CHNlNbSxpis=; b=BTTqj2FvH4/A41L39ULJLkR29YyUR9Plhns6QOFqkNx5Kw/lV/gR1m2RoqA6uC15 eIV7L77YiO0frc+kcV9nqR3EG5BE+1UjWAL3W+ylId0deOSr+F5L5qFEznTB/zhwSQw DyZH1zre6vXK+QTgn6BA3tcnaDH7r2Tv/pTZYRs0= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0B5F1979-CDCD-4DDF-9164-7BFDA2A0BF46" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:24:54 +0000 In-Reply-To: <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest To: Julian Reschke References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.26-54.240.8.96 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:24:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0B5F1979-CDCD-4DDF-9164-7BFDA2A0BF46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Julian, > I notice that you seem to propose new extension attributes for stuff = you can already do without. See, in particular, >=20 > = https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.artwork.attribute.n= ame >=20 > = https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.sourcecode.attribut= e.name Yes, I was originally using the "name" attribute, but then I found that = prep tool was using "originalSrc", which made more since to me, since the goal is to capture the entire = path (more than just the name). > https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#includingexternal = I'm familiar with XInclude, but note that more than just including a = file is going on (e.g., date substitutions, content generation, validation, etc.). > The following discussion about CODE BEGIN etc should also be = interesting: >=20 > I hadn't seen this issue before, but I did see Henrik's comments about = markers in=20 draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes. FWIW, the = "xiax:markers" attribute is primarily only to support xml2rfc v2 documents; v3 documents can just = use the built-in "markers" attribute. That said, I think that markers are, in general, a mistake. That they = were only put their for tools scrapping plain-text documents. Assuming tools extract from = XML, then no markers are needed, neither for framing (to aid the scraping process) or = for capturing the file's name (which is better served by the aforementioned "name" = attribute. Kent --Apple-Mail=_0B5F1979-CDCD-4DDF-9164-7BFDA2A0BF46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Julian,

I notice that you seem to = propose new extension attributes for stuff you can already do without. = See, in particular,

https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.artwork.= attribute.name

https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.sourceco= de.attribute.name

Yes, I was originally using the "name" attribute, = but then I found that prep tool was using "originalSrc",
which = made more since to me, since the goal is to capture the entire path = (more than just the name).


https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#includingexterna= l

I'm familiar with XInclude, but note that more = than just including a file is going on (e.g., date = substitutions,
content generation, validation, = etc.).


The following = discussion about CODE BEGIN etc should also be interesting:

<https://github.com/rfc-format/draft-iab-xml2rfc-v3-bis/issues/8= >


I hadn't seen this issue = before, but I did see Henrik's comments about markers = in 
draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes. =  FWIW, the "xiax:markers" attribute
is primarily only to = support xml2rfc v2 documents; v3 documents can just use the = built-in
"markers" attribute.

That said, I think that markers are, in general, a = mistake.  That they were only put their
for tools = scrapping plain-text documents.   Assuming tools extract from XML, = then no
markers are needed, neither for framing (to aid the = scraping process) or for capturing
the file's name (which is = better served by the aforementioned "name" attribute.

Kent

= --Apple-Mail=_0B5F1979-CDCD-4DDF-9164-7BFDA2A0BF46-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 08:33:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD491292F1 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:33:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ho1eESAvsnnQ for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE12D1276D0 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:33:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MfVzj-1gf5Nw3USp-00P4rQ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:33:07 +0100 To: Kent Watsen Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:33:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7BggZyH25KrWZKq3mudF7Ic1hzsClJyY5nXBlRXGZQd6wWio88D TlViuKnUIHdbSpNFBTGl3m1EQWxZgRQM4roBzYGxsilF/K9LV/Yvl8ikYSUlwnX0HNVkQML GZX6HpcHkSAx0XFtMJzbFv2cNzpnAIf2XOihgvO67JPm7+gerb8r6GfzFSysnlr/O3Eoosj 2MdTz2o7lYC/FGCMd45IA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:5sYg1NwVVZA=:75etJUOtkie4DnQQmiqKIn PccvvvEKqa48N+c76Pq2MMK4hUUdQmiqHpF3PxMDczDs4O2beAtnKVEOOHeI0dPxaVYa1wkMO MUrGSkl/ep17slOnutIHLgj0U6CqGXiViCtg287YgEJl+IEGNVnWr1FdBiVBk+4v/ep0pyk3p D+uVAKN4FM8dZPlgqtpxuWA7FRpLV+TZVyP95SKP5yI2tEDemwchnoe+S3TEyrbxkoaOJlYeT 3dSTBmqHfx1TaGHWJS0wFgG6JqkI2Px1CuG5IjW5JyAsEBaMhzy1rETLb6cePM/3SnybEwIIf NJvFWEWhIxZ+smMftscG12Bfl/JsR3N1Z2Av62RL6vILiooRPQLJU6p408LXfdnEjH/z9Fiff ombUKlnMkEvUkIKfYzTIwKmzedyXtNRWSKm4Ps07F1jPGBXQzhDy5P+IuemhuToNrsWgET5BZ YhWK6EgvBeC08G7iXKnU4i5Ozkd0gChb7jrqpFRw5QZvwyrx+LUyAchwnC+9etimmSIkVDP9S hgQu/oYWwe//gAqcqYDwZxgY2IWyhKehNldz6SNt5yapGUODzmt6c7GTZxJQc5HusK9WN60D1 SlGiiPCjysrTnBaWU3JdrWL+E51arxPmYfTqaZXwVoqA1R1MP4vlcUxk5dJRoRs+0+GDbITct HcD0fxr7Hp8zSS+urdbiaXvZQDfNiASaf4oFKe1VG7P2e56T3VIoFHwqpWnwc/JPMOTYFKGjf WujqcAUEdtinOSNwkA6VEyraRTxOH+rFtoERE+JbZ2C9FoSGcmQpwTbs850RSk0nFunzm5Te5 KRaPK+pJuKzTd4Dy3pXHf5N7No3FV2AnFnfTcakcNxXNx1bzFxe0+c3jl8DQiHhzYANQfgqSO +3PdE/tJnWZsIGeAopnqxel30YDDypXzO5FyE0uqd6Q/nmeJrJw02SLjVZNkuKStC9nOkSytU nwo90XUf1qg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:33:15 -0000 On 26.02.2019 17:24, Kent Watsen wrote: > ... > I hadn't seen this issue before, but I did see Henrik's comments about > markers in > draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes.  FWIW, the > "xiax:markers" attribute > is primarily only to support xml2rfc v2 documents; v3 documents can just > use the built-in > "markers" attribute. > > That said, I think that markers are, in general, a mistake.  That they > were only put their > for tools scrapping plain-text documents.   Assuming tools extract from > XML, then no > markers are needed, neither for framing (to aid the scraping process) or > for capturing > the file's name (which is better served by the aforementioned "name" > attribute. > ... The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to clarify that part of the content is considered to be a "code component"). Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Feb 26 08:47:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6440A1292F1 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:47:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MPmjA8g4s1Oh for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E37CC12785F for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:49231 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gyftC-0002Gd-Fi; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:47:44 -0800 To: Julian Reschke , Kent Watsen References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <755b6d47-663b-f333-fdc4-9acada6ee591@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:47:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9S2hSGEhvP2R4si2COthqMbJTEEum3LLM" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net, julian.reschke@gmx.de X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:47:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9S2hSGEhvP2R4si2COthqMbJTEEum3LLM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wGRHaMqBuKLQEX7jiEAMBNRX3SP8kaUx6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Julian Reschke , Kent Watsen Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <755b6d47-663b-f333-fdc4-9acada6ee591@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: --wGRHaMqBuKLQEX7jiEAMBNRX3SP8kaUx6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2019-02-26 17:33, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 26.02.2019 17:24, Kent Watsen wrote: >> ... >> I hadn't seen this issue before, but I did see Henrik's comments about= =20 >> markers in >> draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes. FWIW, the=20 >> "xiax:markers" attribute >> is primarily only to support xml2rfc v2 documents; v3 documents can ju= st=20 >> use the built-in >> "markers" attribute. >>=20 >> That said, I think that markers are, in general, a mistake. That they= =20 >> were only put their >> for tools scrapping plain-text documents. Assuming tools extract fro= m=20 >> XML, then no >> markers are needed, neither for framing (to aid the scraping process) = or=20 >> for capturing >> the file's name (which is better served by the aforementioned "name"=20 >> attribute. >> ... >=20 > The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to clarify= =20 > that part of the content is considered to be a "code component"). No, it was not. The original reason was to delimit code for other purpos= es. The association with licencing came later. Henrik --wGRHaMqBuKLQEX7jiEAMBNRX3SP8kaUx6-- --9S2hSGEhvP2R4si2COthqMbJTEEum3LLM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1bZAACgkQTptXS4+7 FxpU1Q//ZiSsCbQNWQS0w8P0UjrcXkjVI9yeG2ZLC+Z6xIOPA9Zo8kpuWxO1Idb4 +cImgRI9FrhTp6ftUXGrZmigxEZZtMkjPCDxfKmwf2x2D4giBg/NUKIpi7CGi8Gm qSklpyoFWHbmjgG2RicFoQc9h4ZBzJXpkTqCawSAf+jpBjjXUXK09ywk4/D6+dVA lkPzS51BM0DO5wsvb66IPAghLKUo6KfXE0ZkSfiG0fqWHypFxY5RuzvhTI/KxGUg jDbkfdcnFiDSNi0GtAs5Pvbke6VlNY7DqeWReg3csj3yHP7S3bQGtV8adH8tXFCd LNq32x8K380qxf9LkR3VXEe5TDWLRFf+4UUkY/xftyhikO8XsHtnZZbSUT16UO9T V5Nm9QXr5Q2eWZyrAkLj5bJ4JwrtUYvlNtgNlokryIZxCCvwb79B+7Ar5INKh5cw pF4wSSlYa24v1R4T0XweBq5T64g98Jns5RDY9ypLSNg03gSW7X5jS6Q1I/CrK/cj eoEb3E15ewEtt3imzyLi5wrnFxwFSc7WfDFvqh+VzUb1gyZ9Pqv4NdQUyXg+mOHY uT0h50SqhsXO75WPXZf30o6IUzf0b8OYGE/6nvqRDUNGyZ32yS9BTs98Bwbd8XbH p4W1hYjObpUuo9QiZ/SmLu2rlWr0nN8tzRbGr3M4G6bRVoLEvHI= =6O5C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9S2hSGEhvP2R4si2COthqMbJTEEum3LLM-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 08:52:42 2019 Return-Path: <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5490212D4F2 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:52:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ka6ibmWQiCj5 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-64.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-64.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FD5F131000 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:52:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1551199957; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=ZBN7KUzuhK7DiedWvX8V+vGNv5IneheF5ueMYdSgmrs=; b=hOsGzY/1Q8ZjHMwvpSI8Tu2Si07fW9DRzVP22Uafv8HSGHZ8U4YhuUk3Mtc/5zBf 5Hs7mcoFOGmlI+23rcGzjnEtkg92uX5nSMlgMawBc00UkvqmcD9FdMkhKo6vGL74+dU jLM+OOz25yeN72WWpQx4mdnf/ucIhVAKwYWu3DsU= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BF7BC02F-4E97-45DC-A240-6234DF204455" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:52:36 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, RFC Interest To: Julian Reschke References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.26-54.240.8.64 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:52:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BF7BC02F-4E97-45DC-A240-6234DF204455 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to = clarify that part of the content is considered to be a "code = component"). Perhaps and, if so, then the markers may still have a purpose. =20 That said, I only know the markers coming from = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8407#section-3.2 = , which came from = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6087#section-3.1 = . As the co-chair and = shepherd for these drafts, I assure you that my limited understanding = for the original motivation is correct. It's not intended to have any = relationship to copyrights, though RFC6087 conflates both a module-level = copyright (inside the YANG module) and markers (outside the YANG module) = in Section 3.1, which we de-conflicted in RFC8407. Kent --Apple-Mail=_BF7BC02F-4E97-45DC-A240-6234DF204455 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was = for licensing (to clarify that part of the content is considered to be a = "code component").


Perhaps and, if so, then = the markers may still have a purpose.   

That said, I only know the markers coming = from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8407#section-3.2, which = came from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6087#section-3.1.   = As the co-chair and shepherd for these drafts, I assure you that my = limited understanding for the original motivation is correct.   = It's not intended to have any relationship to copyrights, though RFC6087 = conflates both a module-level copyright (inside the YANG module) and = markers (outside the YANG module) in Section 3.1, which we de-conflicted = in RFC8407.

Kent

= --Apple-Mail=_BF7BC02F-4E97-45DC-A240-6234DF204455-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 08:57:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4610A130F9A for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:57:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVuV1y2aPVVD for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B5E8130EF5 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:49298 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gyg2A-0001pD-Cb; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:56:58 -0800 To: Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <7d60962f-e995-5e9e-31bc-4847c2662ac8@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:56:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RDUU2dm2dOeRcROavtDrfasAPpA47p5DC" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, kent+ietf@watsen.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:57:12 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --RDUU2dm2dOeRcROavtDrfasAPpA47p5DC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="L8Uu8d1RM4HvT7X4LF3mwQT7h1qIFHxi6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <7d60962f-e995-5e9e-31bc-4847c2662ac8@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> --L8Uu8d1RM4HvT7X4LF3mwQT7h1qIFHxi6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kent, On 2019-02-26 17:52, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 >> The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to >> clarify that part of the content is considered to be a "code >> component"). >=20 > Perhaps and, if so, then the markers may still have a purpose. >=20 > That said, I only know the markers coming from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8407#section-3.2 > , which came from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6087#section-3.1 > . Just so. > As the co-chair > and shepherd for these drafts, I assure you that my limited > understanding for the original motivation is correct. It's not > intended to have any relationship to copyrights, though RFC6087 > conflates both a module-level copyright (inside the YANG module) and > markers (outside the YANG module) in Section 3.1, which we > de-conflicted in RFC8407. Good so. Henrik --L8Uu8d1RM4HvT7X4LF3mwQT7h1qIFHxi6-- --RDUU2dm2dOeRcROavtDrfasAPpA47p5DC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1b7cACgkQTptXS4+7 FxoNTBAAoitRSysSFBPrzO8nnNHPTQNkZ4Y0MSe2irGLGzONcaXfNcYceUQjgB44 xPIXTNH0YAc3ksVo6wC9GvS3AsiYJIq9ASy70rnvwt6W/IcKOISuc00oFicO6j24 2TcT8ZMu4f5d0vCk+YZ13vSI/NRCnXANC6RGyIx849t8imMY/Nm15/so/q5EgX8H A57iIsS9kfxlXTNVCs1dStk+5MDDcSvRz8kjkNp4EQBSqDrFbSqCDQvZ7VMwFqnP I/elnHpPtjVvfjC//dhDQRCbiF+J4op8P6jQi6m2Hg+AHx0vpNKUEacRR508Qr8o cdpGVfMw7cJoofFK1N6MzMCbhjCMDIfYWEnkZxYQkSn+Ol5vbqdLcFKbmIrvorpw S5A16GjHUJUk8Q5/poBbWDBr4BWl1WmMJeP2R4gxTlxG2VzbCxZG37JgZ0RaKNil Viyo15MtN+AMa1c2/aAYSZpitFHtfFs2wb7kFsnTT2yG2BhtPWkcfBlrJRzhKGxW Ix9m1VQwnbOJOQB7amV6Z8yFy4VJcpXbWAha+cXpbSXJAbHZjj3fD6pyOPnca2l/ jqUzHytp4uLICH0EAVA6IaW46PW5z2kXlUi5nTcMcGXMKSN09zpA3oqqSr+bmdnT 7ampq5JDHo/RBILXsYd+OF143p0v0z9Ysj6WpsHNgXXBxLz7JH0= =sw6r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RDUU2dm2dOeRcROavtDrfasAPpA47p5DC-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 09:19:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0644112785F for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:19:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7zCcPRRUoK2 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20549124B0C for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4485Cc5VB4z1rxSx; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:19:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1551201580; bh=KotWwDAq1NU/3CtzqhecbF+HJMFU+L0vozbtgNzb45A=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Qv5AkLP2nZCV9FHgaEZTlsqp6bJFtRgFHt72TWTuW2RG46zigL9Q31X4EDSXDufgT wWFEEEZZzYY2lNEPCR//0hUpMQVU4vrqkF3dlr04MpZryqSsvccwut9qnLyyr+h/+V MwU+dXa111S4FXsoeaM1fqITJD4dfbIJ75gzHiJs= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4485Cc0YLnz1rxSt; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:19:39 -0800 (PST) To: Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:19:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:19:43 -0000 RFC 5377 section 4.3 calls out that code has different copyright grants than other parts of the document. It describes various examples of code, and then asks the IETF Trust to specify textual marking for code so that authors can be explicit and can mark things that may not be obvious by the examples. So it goes back a lot earlier than 6087. And as far as I know goes back to before there was any tooling support for the markings. Yours, Joel On 2/26/19 11:52 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > >> The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to >> clarify that part of the content is considered to be a "code component"). > > > Perhaps and, if so, then the markers may still have a purpose. > > That said, I only know the markers coming from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8407#section-3.2, which came from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6087#section-3.1.   As the co-chair and > shepherd for these drafts, I assure you that my limited understanding > for the original motivation is correct.   It's not intended to have any > relationship to copyrights, though RFC6087 conflates both a module-level > copyright (inside the YANG module) and markers (outside the YANG module) > in Section 3.1, which we de-conflicted in RFC8407. > > Kent > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > From nobody Tue Feb 26 09:25:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EF612D4EB for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:25:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0K90o9fXrK4 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22BDE12D4F2 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:49524 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gygU4-0004NL-Gs; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:25:37 -0800 To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:25:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="H6AiI8A4wTIns6SIEVQ7rItNi76aiA1UB" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, kent+ietf@watsen.net, jmh@joelhalpern.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --H6AiI8A4wTIns6SIEVQ7rItNi76aiA1UB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wnAKBxCK13ru4nTx4DM3HE0xKwqX37Jph"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [rfc-i] [Ietf-and-github] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: --wnAKBxCK13ru4nTx4DM3HE0xKwqX37Jph Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joel, On 2019-02-26 18:19, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > RFC 5377 section 4.3 calls out that code has different copyright grants= =20 > than other parts of the document. It describes various examples of=20 > code, and then asks the IETF Trust to specify textual marking for code = > so that authors can be explicit and can mark things that may not be=20 > obvious by the examples. >=20 > So it goes back a lot earlier than 6087. > And as far as I know goes back to before there was any tooling support = > for the markings. Indeed. And later, when there was discussion about possible code marking= s, I proposed that we use the , introduced by RFC 6= 087, rather than inventing something new. Regards, Henrik >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 2/26/19 11:52 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to=20 >>> clarify that part of the content is considered to be a "code componen= t"). >>=20 >>=20 >> Perhaps and, if so, then the markers may still have a purpose. >>=20 >> That said, I only know the markers coming from=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8407#section-3.2, which came from=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6087#section-3.1. As the co-chair and= =20 >> shepherd for these drafts, I assure you that my limited understanding = >> for the original motivation is correct. It's not intended to have an= y=20 >> relationship to copyrights, though RFC6087 conflates both a module-lev= el=20 >> copyright (inside the YANG module) and markers (outside the YANG modul= e)=20 >> in Section 3.1, which we de-conflicted in RFC8407. >>=20 >> Kent >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >=20 --wnAKBxCK13ru4nTx4DM3HE0xKwqX37Jph-- --H6AiI8A4wTIns6SIEVQ7rItNi76aiA1UB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1dogACgkQTptXS4+7 FxphPg/7BvTOqi0Ccc9FAdfZLA8vWrDHBBlfa1PQqTQWhX+Gn65Qw9gzlSgM/toK TgpD2SEZQ+XtDv+3N3+7LVyT4YGxkNvGQnGqbuaiRZ36GE3KcvQCZzgxNMWcI4TL Dd+k0bpRG/Jj4MfMrdzpDvv/SM4qHDDrDOB3EYiyyoOHP4AYqypIWFoTA67K40R7 sHvSoANwx6eibFNitpDJS4ZfG0VMHYbQMkebERblSZ98VB5w6BZRZazhl5QCOvhC PcdCM3eY7FfuJqcR1UyYkNE98BvyL1qJJuubY2eSHke/tFLtud1037k/tLFJeFhj iuvKESmvl2QOpG3jZPjEVue59g4uXgkBV9AnN9w2xNgHFWonDrZUGgZjmvmb8Dg1 VR3lJ87jzifpQoNbw1/o9NrXoqrGW6OrburEU1uwizNra/shP5vQbnQNPA+sg7aF oeoxbBKNMT0ADoYV9J7FC7HuRNbLIgCesxJlKXj5lP+J++Xf/ZuFhCbRv1QNxL1I XqaKjByHZgHaQdTJK7DBWUUEAsaKtBS6CxJurhm0mqA94VawzQ05ekq7iJVxjAzH mBH4cMxy220GFREJMNijXFTVDiK6F4RNYfKkAvyE0LhpRlDRnfXpw7bz0AWbW6wO pe27UnaZ1o2T1/8Hs3Wc1aKtKjY00aIk14JoIBaDhRKy2mKinbg= =03w8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --H6AiI8A4wTIns6SIEVQ7rItNi76aiA1UB-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 10:04:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDDF130ECA for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:04:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hEmbVMpx0TS for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3865130EC1 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MLelb-1gyxvn1QAt-000wIo; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:03:52 +0100 To: Henrik Levkowetz , Kent Watsen Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <755b6d47-663b-f333-fdc4-9acada6ee591@levkowetz.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <033402b8-84ae-0327-35b5-54f21a8d76dc@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:03:51 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <755b6d47-663b-f333-fdc4-9acada6ee591@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:9fcIOylDN8y+Le1Z0V1RZd/REi56tL5O6/O5CCEqorNMk+bdvhl HOEyaTAqXzt4vQWKdspl3wfnIvQhLjDrVU2GYxLBse5j2B1zlLdwd+YYd3V5tT7SW/Py4mh tqIQBUfDq5xhHRXU0zgXt2qeUu06Z3WEgtwuJ+Q3vdnli1UPlVaWfPn2i98mRCGFUXKIZXq lXiawHXd2/zznw03Mlqvw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ChuRJRPpA+Q=:1OnkB2U3W0khsSjKWXunQY ubQxqAjTu/BkOWzVyZjAZXz6dOR0h3vHPbXZoTKTDHugi6aqav0jAms3ypnMEg5AtaBlnugQI jFV70LUonke4swCOJr6LLoNvRgquKDZat8yjQ8q6FbUFZ32uR3bGen+zy9eCaBi+6ZMo9Myev FijmdsqWQgztdn5wC1orhVAxEP+QIdRsuPVFA1BjfRR4aIij983CODTbmTZwqlLIgdcONWuLX jg5YqroK3TwhkRQkYvW5lsfUJyjYMyv0hhz1nL4lSTljvABjSsTc+BwWWtsIUPC4CLiReGxPc YpHTvTxm7rDBjEHnVPpPwALeU8+FQfj4crJbrF814a5K7Kxf6L4pP3bc8GnbgIWTUB4YGuG8J srzvB+sqIBzOj9QzSuWhOrH72kB2BR8ViikBof9/DuJJiMjgOs3wGskc2DJiaXPXcaLubVBMH kllIAYfCGzRn6oQOnQSHtsdO4wv3IjOrIIY7s0sn3agVar7JLGDfC8B/128vu70gQm+rqJFO0 zhqjFx+/k4I1Tbm1mkxinAxYv1qZ4uSLfdDwcP2Z4se+8K0KivdQO7CvdVAq/2aQ2qjE+14uJ sQ67d9WY2Ei6XbE0mcwi2f/2u3ER2cfvdH26BbE0EbxRVJw2+ue5/m8j4uKldt0Up0yA9N+O3 nKqiGiD/LofXNhRgaiziInLR50IJwLvmDOuy594YzT6IDJHPOEatThmOWJ9rxQs3SVNooQvEs c8Bzu9DPQejKcE5zbfO8Z+3+DWqzjvH1Q3GISKuz7ofiFtb5XUCD4+YI7TaezLN6vu5JmuAEE zwZYC/VeAsyEYoKj0J8UySx8lkkKbez9y/48HkgV85d/RbtDtPCsM3hd98l7RHIY1o2IPdJl9 OgyfVOvaAHrYNW5C2dciOu9LyKdzww6RFGCRif1lI6BEVSK5SqIcI321Ew3sdrMoekxqOi3Cs sNyyM/F2wsQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:04:13 -0000 On 26.02.2019 17:47, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > On 2019-02-26 17:33, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 26.02.2019 17:24, Kent Watsen wrote: >>> ... >>> I hadn't seen this issue before, but I did see Henrik's comments about >>> markers in >>> draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes. FWIW, the >>> "xiax:markers" attribute >>> is primarily only to support xml2rfc v2 documents; v3 documents can just >>> use the built-in >>> "markers" attribute. >>> >>> That said, I think that markers are, in general, a mistake. That they >>> were only put their >>> for tools scrapping plain-text documents. Assuming tools extract from >>> XML, then no >>> markers are needed, neither for framing (to aid the scraping process) or >>> for capturing >>> the file's name (which is better served by the aforementioned "name" >>> attribute. >>> ... >> >> The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to clarify >> that part of the content is considered to be a "code component"). > > No, it was not. The original reason was to delimit code for other purposes. > The association with licencing came later The oldest RFC I see containing "CODE BEGINS" is RFC 5403, dated February 2009. The oldest "code components" list mentioned on is dated November 2008. 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creation-date="Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:05:19 GMT"; modification-date="Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:05:19 GMT" Content-ID: <16B522F0F925164A85A4E646BDA78D46@namprd17.prod.outlook.com> Received: from mail.ietf.org (unverified [64.170.98.32]) by stewe.org (SurgeMail 3.9e) with ESMTP id 22258-2000100 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:43:07 +0200 Return-Path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8459A3A6936; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ipr-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipr-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B096D3A6885 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:42:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j2jrOo-A+81s for ; 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b=DJIznCDAj6qhr1WNNkHrDiLAkRfegIybIl8Ueq/NJ/UZ/+A0Y3LY3dEAFY35UfXnBQ ieMapaYe5rYONq5MK5TaHofBYNtlS1u0UP9gZx3Jz52FrJE/OLNMw/Kogl1jdzfyskd7 mpt8Eq/0kRoUeYwO9IwWUhoknPXajXCrE1Oe4= Received: by 10.110.50.19 with SMTP id x19mr1999961tix.36.1215384167045; Sun, 06 Jul 2008 15:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b4sm4734691tic.14.2008.07.06.15.42.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 06 Jul 2008 15:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <48714A61.9000202@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:42:41 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) To: Ed Juskevicius Subject: Re: Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents References: <0BDFFF51DC89434FA33F8B37FCE363D511F951E6@zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com> <50E312B117033946BA23AA102C8134C6026792BA@SDCPEXCCL2MX.wilmerhale.com> <0BDFFF51DC89434FA33F8B37FCE363D511F951EC@zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com> <0BDFFF51DC89434FA33F8B37FCE363D511F951EF@zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <0BDFFF51DC89434FA33F8B37FCE363D511F951EF@zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com> CC: ipr-wg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipr-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IPR-WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ipr-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ipr-wg-bounces@ietf.org X-Originating-IP: 64.170.98.32 X-ORBS-Accept: dnswl_medium X-Rcpt-To: X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 1, First 19, in=514, out=0, spam=0 ip=64.170.98.32 Status: U X-UIDL: 5174 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, > (y) all IETF legends, legal notices and indications of > authorship contained in the original IETF RFC must also be > included where more than of an IETF RFC is > reproduced in a single document or series of related > documents. A half seems like rather a high limit; a short RFC can be almost 50% boilerplate anyway. I realise we need an objective rule, so can I suggest "one fifth"? > For ease of reference, Code Components in IETF RFCs may be > designated by

This = approach is the only one that `xiax` supports now.   While I do = think the
other approach has merit, it seemed important to = first test how feasible this
approach would be.  Yes, = code needs to be added for each new content-type  
And, even in the world of YANG, there's = the issue of which YANG-tools (e.g.,
pyang, yanglint, etc) to = support and to what extent.


I think it's worth exploring, in any case.

Yes, = exactly, nothing is locked down as of yet, plenty of opportunity = for 
mid-course corrections.


Cheers,
Kent





= --Apple-Mail=_9CB67424-7C2D-4B04-8FF4-82217FA48768-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 10:13:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0048A1292F1 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FbbK0-F1gtHW for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D388C1277CC for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mc8Pz-1ggLYX1WJr-00JXIb; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:12:54 +0100 To: Henrik Levkowetz , "Joel M. Halpern" , Kent Watsen Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:12:51 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vrPZvFzeAsrFSDc2Kzv+AUoSlrJBJm8xMBEOQvTZ2SPeNmY8yWK zXWf+EJqKRwgbNTxUt4A6xyaSZ57bmiFthY1eFJdxwS1WsMQX2kjVrTM7j0zZAur1KFTViJ T101g9N1Z61g5JE/6ETcndLbT3Rff9chwu9YkySq7mLg6oXgZVobHNIlfQRMn+kHUB5yi0E P0rF+/tQV1rajJ6vkgxAQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:HpiXbeI+7LE=:Ez77nrgQwe+mcEww2RKPaA SqZLl1ojpthmdwRETAY5maYrSESYvYGGUO/sg9uWrov7jQirxbHHGU3bqunxSgOwq9BMrS6tK MT+k31x79ptIp3eSg0v7khp+l5QnGAeUG/QEpppVh7cS41AdjvtnpcTIAo3SISOV9qetJ3mHq RbYNoyDBP5FPwK+4lTVwGlJUleogbrqpqEAnw9yYmyYNimVXx1yHCwfXVCUeUY5Tt9NkM0Hy5 U9Tk0AfZSdjSRhPfmiIZEqgvkonJOJZUKl1yunmOWxB2Lgq14H8W/6XLtQe+C++8J79AqGMyj sEVgpCjKH2j8PnatCuoPusTxhDHWlyLaKrrJQg/hdhpbsD1ynAIFecPiDyq596rxdc036CmyE iO95O1drESlMCQ24AOXL3ROM9ssObw1oD/QcEdSr9JOCJ+ygTqeVgmIhzzhh3yDh8GKJ/1bTr aI70aNYR03qShg48JRzqEUFprhFvaRLHwq0uw6C01QAOzpRkVcWcN2+E9bOsmXvd3lNKy5H5l 4PMh1kaDHkh19LTipPs8XwABKwBt7dVorJ1jXXbqfOD+CuckgmX8x0xUZmorLuB6Bu9cq2flo 69QFzgr/6Fk+xbpspP+nL91wkxJwfX8K0By/jZM5wZmd9o2rdnWYM6vSzHUmT4kh6NTNsCxM7 VUbMHqWr3jo/gj23OQ/jZQ9CuTkIJQQGYlfh+NzSKhEXxpFxxTgR+vEYlSHgZH7bw24T+g3Gi WHe8XNwCYas27U/oF8aIgdtzgkpur5QTMyKa4A22aPbdGbU8wRiJiIwZS//kPyh2X25/qFHXz O1o7MZvAo9i8M6po5g0iCju370SOeCYxJ7D51Z2pKGaTFTwonwufoJsfHgtVfkLeayhFtA427 3PTL58+IkC51Ep9mFcnT/J3qI7xyn34BswCU8gmnfL1xMYZm2uXmU2grfTcMPsaztGxtylQfW I1acUESlliw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:13:21 -0000 On 26.02.2019 18:25, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Joel, > > On 2019-02-26 18:19, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> RFC 5377 section 4.3 calls out that code has different copyright grants >> than other parts of the document. It describes various examples of >> code, and then asks the IETF Trust to specify textual marking for code >> so that authors can be explicit and can mark things that may not be >> obvious by the examples. >> >> So it goes back a lot earlier than 6087. >> And as far as I know goes back to before there was any tooling support >> for the markings. > > Indeed. And later, when there was discussion about possible code markings, > I proposed that we use the , introduced by RFC 6087, > rather than inventing something new. > ... Those were introduced much earlier, and exactly for the reason I stated. That's at least how I read the historic documents, and it also matches my memory. But wait, we even discussed it on xml2rfc - see , dated September 2009. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Feb 26 10:16:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5892130F23 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:16:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8qJrIOmNBros for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CC02130F29 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MgHHO-1gcEhq1dRu-00Ng8T; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:16:16 +0100 From: Julian Reschke To: Henrik Levkowetz , "Joel M. Halpern" , Kent Watsen Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: <351285b4-f685-0d77-b35f-16ac4dd0934f@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:16:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nvADitRGgYp8xHvKrND2mP9WftPskN80G1gRTQhyhIcnMZxnouK 3a455uYtN39lgeyAkYfJbtRnvez9oyr6Ux8cbqAZwKcpg/CxLSIVdt3aPb5MRRiXODUnRIs hmIXaW1YG4BfG5fA9KKaNIYqpPbEAoF+zK3o6q2/oLitJWbwDAL8wS2nqalZNQpkRwAkUDt bPz24EggWkcgCZzBxnMjQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:eaezYdJTXy8=:rhvA358z+/pLoK1OMuqvrh r8Hu6UIKEYcfyXctGDOpxYXl09fBMLm/kszT9t12BWQBIUyadTJ3+XaZ6yHOuPC5kZ9Y6AlyT R2BVhNTuk0/KjRZK0vYfCZQynhVZsY78+TVS3HW7GDmZni9lJV/NdsOb3NFNRQy0QmB4/2YBJ CSOklYzdwWysgRS5CA0NBG3ft6G54iamNWNG8Hrc/uSHHjkAuY9YHIOV5B7jN/0MEhmkF4/ye MActICF969FXCAK/X4uOx85LFyagR+L1LT2kUfsLtJM2P/C51pbm6cd8+uLsv6I9wfvBaubJA zgopq2aEnvlWQx5SyRfWwTvStFdOUejJkGxkNTuzjmk+yNk1CjnIsa3djDWg9atzbjc2B9vD1 1Gg0g7ZbejhAtL6yA7mR47Em92mAk4Y2zu7RFBquxbLrWHdArcb5pcckwxi8jXVK/GikEdkEE uV1OlAWsdpnBh68SiBz3AiXzww/SIsXviVEoV9C/gqR+T1FOJnkEjQV1wZWwjTLyFJNu22yds mRHXkVzbt4nEh6slRI8r4GNGEp7IpSX+wpoKPcuq7YpiArbStY0+R/5RU0nt6fFsI0l9Duero mB/jq6mfhlrgGKLN4WxZ/IE92AU8N8gWEhAd6fFDEv2f7XULg5bXIDIgkHYsAZv8VI69GbOQx gsf0PUEbANVsy6FA8umD75aae1AZXP3DxUQgbhg7E3WFFqHHbJXgSoZWQ2sDsZ+PGVAGLQ/Uu Bswh1xyyvKiKGIqw4rcafDGwdbw3qY38pvv3PoHay80e9Ud3NUFCLA4BzLJlfD9uDq4hjeYN2 1Ks6sDq+JoO4eymW7UYaSEKv2poBHFeeNspm0M/o9biSe6Db5z/oIIpmeCMgz50L0r/4des1s qEVlJoWXryUUOrCZ/a8Gzottvk4RAsym5rq+0mmJZcGHZJJcS13f6UH12fCQ4+YaDR8pOcdML pqSvjfQzxwA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:16:48 -0000 On 26.02.2019 19:12, Julian Reschke wrote: > ... > Those were introduced much earlier, and exactly for the reason I stated. > That's at least how I read the historic documents, and it also matches > my memory. > > But wait, we even discussed it on xml2rfc - see > , > dated September 2009. ...and . Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Feb 26 10:37:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AE2130EB9 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:37:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efxA0ssOJCtu for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58518130E9A for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:50069 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gyhbt-0004gD-13; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:37:46 -0800 To: Kent Watsen References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:37:37 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kt5Pdpoq8G2Bf8AUgF7e45xW9LM3GkFXW" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:37:58 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Kt5Pdpoq8G2Bf8AUgF7e45xW9LM3GkFXW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nkqAqKbeBX2VFlWUqneMDQXfaP8MvoLXu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Kent Watsen Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [rfc-i] [Ietf-and-github] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> --nkqAqKbeBX2VFlWUqneMDQXfaP8MvoLXu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kent, On 2019-02-26 19:05, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > Hi Henrik, >=20 >=20 >> For both xml2rfc version 2 , and version 3 (I do= n't >> think you should touch v3 , but that's a separate discussion)= , >=20 > I can see why you might say that, assuming the primary value-add is bui= ld-time > validation, but note also that the "xiax:gen" attribute is used to dyna= mically=20 > *generate artwork*, which extends to v3 artwork (including SVGs) as wel= l. Ahh. Point. Yes. >> I believe you should be using the "name" attribute, not the=20 >> "src"/"originalSrc" or xiax:src attributes to provide the file names >> to export to; see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7991#section-2.48.2. >>=20 >> The "name" attribute on is also supported in the v2 schema. >>=20 >> If there are any specific reasons why you've not used "name" attribute= , >> which is provided with the intention of being used by extraction tools= , >> we should have a discussion and understand why. >=20 > As I just wrote Julian, `xiax` was using the "name" attribute originall= y, but=20 > it needed to store the file's entire path (not just its name), so that = the same > directory structure can be recreated during extraction, so that paths f= ound > in the validation/generation scripts are valid, and hence round-trippin= g works. > Note that authors tend to place various inclusion files in subdirectori= es so > as to keep their document's top-level directory clean, so paths are fai= rly=20 > common. =20 But there's no limitation on the "name" attribute that would exclude usin= g a relative path, that I'm aware of? > But I also saw that prep-tool didn't auto-set the "name" attribute and,= as > `xiax` is effectively a preptool too, I figured it shouldn't muck with = the "name" > attribute either. That said, I think that it would make sense for `xi= ax` to > also set the "name" attribute, to be just the "basename" component of t= he > filepath string, as this must be intended 99.9% of the time... Mmm. It seems to me that for xiax, all the generation, inclusion and extraction purposes fit within what was the intended use of "name", excep= t that you'd want to set "src" if at some point the end products of externa= l tools processing would be a not-standalone .XML file dependent on externa= l files which were intended to be included by xml2rfc or an equivalent tool= =2E But given that you've worked with this more, I believe you have a better understanding of what's needed -- what I'm trying to achieve here is to separate concerns, trying to get to the point where we don't have multipl= e interrelated attributes; instead having clearly separate ones, with distinct purposes and effects. > FWIW, `xiax` originally tried to set the "originalSrc" attribute, which= was > nice and clean but, unfortunately, `xml2rfc` didn't accept it. That's = when > "xiax-block" came to be, which would be total overkill if it were for j= ust=20 > this single purpose, but now xiax-block is being used to store much mor= e > metadata than the original "src" value, so I'm happy the switch was mad= e. Ok, I can see that. > As a further side note, the original plan was to store all the > per-element metadata as a bunch of "xiax" prefixed attributes in each > element. While this would work, it would be ugly and difficult on the > copy editors. For instance, looking at the "yang-data xiax-block" in=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00#append= ix-B.3.1 > , > note how the per-inclusion "src" and "gen" elements are hierarchical an= d > each can include whole files. If per-element "xiax" prefixed > attributes were used, they would wind up being large/ugly > base64-encoded blobs. Having one large block at the end helped keep > things clean in the body of the document. Ack, makes sense. >> Some additional comments on the draft (I looked at -01): >>=20 >> | =20 >> | 5. Updates to RFC 7991 >> | =20 >> | This section is just a placeholder for now, but it is expected t= hat >> | [RFC7991] will need to be modified in order to support some of t= his >> | work. >> | =20 >> | At a minimum, [RFC7991] should be updated to support attributes = from >> | other namespaces, such that the `rfc2xml` tool would neither pro= cess >> | nor discard them. >>=20 >> Blanket acceptance of unknown attributes would make validation of sche= ma >> attributes go away. I'm fine with discussing specific new attributes = for >> specific elements, but not a blanket acceptance of any attributes as v= alid >> in the input. Accepting wildcard attributes in specific namespaces fo= r >> in the v3 grammar seems doable (I've just tested a gramma= r >> tweak for that). I think this is what you're after, but the text in t= he >> draft seems a bit too open-ended. >=20 > I appreciate your concern but, in my effort to understand better, what = issue > is there for random-prefixed elements/attributes appearing, if the defa= ult > processing ignores them all (other than not discarding them)? Mainly expressing this in the grammar in such a way that it doesn't precl= ude validation of the base schema, and keeps the grammar bounded. There's also a secondary wish to capture sensible requirements, generalis= ing them, and making them available in the base vocabulary, eventually, in or= der to enrich it over time. > Tying in my previous comment, having the xiax-block at the end where it= is > out of the way seems good, but I worry about it being stored as an XML = > comment. It seems that trepidatious luck is in play that comments are = not > discarded. At least, I'm unaware of any statement that XML comments > are guaranteed to be preserved. Umm. Right. There has been several times when changes in the code has l= ed to upsets with comments, and I've had to take care to preserve comments, = even if it caused the code to become slightly more complex. > In lieu of such statement being made, > it seems that it might be safer to use a element just befo= re > the close of the tag but, this assumes a guarantee that random > prefixed elements won't be discarded either... Ack. But as I mentioned, I'm not opposed to adding specific namespaces attributes (and possibly even elements) in selected places -- it's the unboundedness of permitting any elements and any attributes with any namespace that makes me uncomfortable. >> | 7. Previous Work >> ... >> | o The RFC Submit [submit] tool has been modified to test YANG >> | modules contained within I-Ds, and the resulting document pag= e in >> | Datatracker [datatracker] displays a new "Yang Validation" fi= eld >> | containing a varying color yin-yang symbol (green if no error= s, >> | red if errors) along with counts. This tool is okay for what= it >> | is, but it neither aids authors between updates nor validates= >> | anything beyond YANG modules. >>=20 >> Additional info: The datatracker submission checking for YANG modules >> was written to be easily extended, exactly for the purpose of adding >> additional checkers in the future (I'm mentioning this as an additiona= l >> point in support of generalizing the tool work in this area). >=20 > Good to know! And, as I've mentioned to you in a private thread befo= re, > I hope to join you at the Code Sprint in Prague to see about integratin= g > some of this work. Ack :-) >> | 10. Security Considerations >> | =20 >> | 10.1. Automated Execution of Arbitrary Scripts >> ... >> | o Allow arbitrary scripts, but don't execute them automatically= when >> | a document is extracted. This solution is appealing as it st= ill >> | ensures these scripts were executed on the author's computer = at >> | time of construction, and the scripts themselves can be extra= cted >> | and audited on the reviewer's computer. If desired, after >> | auditing a script, a reviewer could choose to manually execut= e it >> | on their own computer. >>=20 >> Creating a generalized solution that would permit packaging of the ver= ification >> code in the document seems sooo tempting. But we've seen time and aga= in that >> if you make it possible to automate execution of arbitrary code, it wi= ll be >> expanded to actually do the automation by someone, and then used by ba= d actors >> down the road. -1. >=20 > As a hyper-paranoid Security person, I'm very much aligned with your th= inking > here. That said, as the above quoted text states, what harm is there i= s the=20 > scripts are *NOT* executed automatically on extraction, that it would r= equire > a manual/explicit action and, presumably, only then after reviewing the= script > for such shenanigans? The lure is pretty strong... That you would not run embedded scripts automatically won't prevent other= s from building such automation, if we build in features to embed scripts intended to be run for validation, in the first place. I'm sure everybody who's originally made it possible to put executable co= de into .doc, .pdf, etc. would be horrified at what people have done with th= e capability later. We should have learnt that lesson by now ,:-} >> | o Don't allow arbitrary scripts but, instead, support parameter= ized >> | files that declare all the information necessary to construct= the >> | command(s) necessary to generate derived views and/or validat= e >> | inclusions. >>=20 >> I like this better, but it's a much larger apparatus. It might mean b= uilding >> a registry of validation tools (for yang, the state of the art is such= >> that it seems feasible, but for other content that might not be so eas= y). >=20 > This approach is the only one that `xiax` supports now. While I do th= ink the > other approach has merit, it seemed important to first test how feasibl= e this > approach would be. Yes, code needs to be added for each new content-ty= pe =20 > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00#appen= dix-B.2 > ). > And, even in the world of YANG, there's the issue of which YANG-tools (= e.g., > pyang, yanglint, etc) to support and to what extent. Ack. >> I think it's worth exploring, in any case. >=20 > Yes, exactly, nothing is locked down as of yet, plenty of opportunity f= or=20 > mid-course corrections. Ack. Henrik --nkqAqKbeBX2VFlWUqneMDQXfaP8MvoLXu-- --Kt5Pdpoq8G2Bf8AUgF7e45xW9LM3GkFXW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1h3EACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxqb/RAArdWxX46Zy/ey2UZVerZ7MRa/TXx4YezrsRcGX7RiENEGBpChZyOviej9 Uss77A5u7/G1b4aM0jW47ZqGAnZlOIV9fL/QKrOgRZJLXZKkJzNlbwr1YbcgGiru 2cvYSS512m/Zlva3bhismGYq/G9O2Y4Wq3c6Wue1IeUMIr05R8Tr+Hw3dQgerG0G O6bwKs4nSUKtmSBcUhXky2mQtfnuQ2hAdzP8tFp1bvgAQOoWyvSh9LUxvpaN6Uku cnTcGtqbS7Iix3KyskdjXyokJhkDSYqHgoCDOlKO3N03aq+dCGOAPM+/xp13831B i5qlnKQM3jljXdDXCckjkHiaLzixkJApL4zeKTV6jsnHBwWR03XNeLbnWOnJvT5c 9JPx7Jh1rRAzK8mQkZup9ADxzaZmfJvR1sovs3M+C9Ms58ZJvcsvcheEYH+eBG3F 9rSIeHBz/zVHbzOac2l8kQzpU1MWCNMG7s31MmmwJEyj/kidcVZziiaRDHL3JKX4 omu2dFKe1FFDd0Dd77o7Fs0c0Pl7DiMW1uFVwLvCcOVXaBCqa+VVDkBV4mbKwqq4 z/HH0hZAIsDGmK18LvTlWtk1Tj877neuRnjThGC7GbWvPWjKnVbN+X74lwrqgJxA s0MtMxZpzwHuoYe/9eOCXH33t390wHWlXk0z8Qd7tRisYd8Hwkc= =7vl0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Kt5Pdpoq8G2Bf8AUgF7e45xW9LM3GkFXW-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 10:48:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2071D128766 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K5dEhtnkeKvD for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 184B41277CC for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:50175 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gyhmF-0004Ur-CT; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:48:28 -0800 To: Stephan Wenger , "Joel M. Halpern" , Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> <3849BD6A-DD18-4624-8ED6-87B968211B5B@stewe.org> Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <20aaf8c4-2b85-ac28-f780-37c37d62843b@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:48:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3849BD6A-DD18-4624-8ED6-87B968211B5B@stewe.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k2baNJcOl8NS68PUa2qd4MHTBVTMiaKM5" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, julian.reschke@gmx.de, kent+ietf@watsen.net, jmh@joelhalpern.com, stewe@stewe.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:48:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --k2baNJcOl8NS68PUa2qd4MHTBVTMiaKM5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Qob3tAKtse4gJnA8Tqc7hhLMN9rNqQ6si"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Stephan Wenger , "Joel M. Halpern" , Kent Watsen , Julian Reschke Cc: RFC Interest , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20aaf8c4-2b85-ac28-f780-37c37d62843b@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <2e4a853c-6622-81e8-adf5-02deb3e1d6e3@gmx.de> <010001692a9f8f0f-a4ba1870-6959-4518-8503-6e30424b1ac9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692ab8ef80-96b79bab-c831-4917-b5a2-edc3a37ab952-000000@email.amazonses.com> <3849BD6A-DD18-4624-8ED6-87B968211B5B@stewe.org> In-Reply-To: <3849BD6A-DD18-4624-8ED6-87B968211B5B@stewe.org> --Qob3tAKtse4gJnA8Tqc7hhLMN9rNqQ6si Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephan, On 2019-02-26 19:05, Stephan Wenger wrote: > I believe the first mentioning of code markers was in the attached > email, which was on the IPR WG mailing list on a thread in the > context of the copyright RFCs (BCP78). > Stephan I believe you're right. The first use in a draft could be draft-ietf-nfsv4-minorversion1-dot-x-10= =2Etxt, from December 3, 2008, which would be after Brian's proposal. I thought = I'd seen it in use earlier, but it seems I was wrong. Henrik >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2/26/19, 09:25, "Ietf-and-github on behalf of Henrik Levkow= etz" = wrote: >=20 > Hi Joel, > =20 > On 2019-02-26 18:19, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > RFC 5377 section 4.3 calls out that code has different copyright = grants=20 > > than other parts of the document. It describes various examples = of=20 > > code, and then asks the IETF Trust to specify textual marking for= code=20 > > so that authors can be explicit and can mark things that may not = be=20 > > obvious by the examples. > >=20 > > So it goes back a lot earlier than 6087. > > And as far as I know goes back to before there was any tooling su= pport=20 > > for the markings. > =20 > Indeed. And later, when there was discussion about possible code m= arkings, > I proposed that we use the , introduced by= RFC 6087, > rather than inventing something new. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Henrik > =20 > >=20 > > Yours, > > Joel > >=20 > > On 2/26/19 11:52 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>> The original reason for "CODE BEGINS" etc was for licensing (to= =20 > >>> clarify that part of the content is considered to be a "code co= mponent"). > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> Perhaps and, if so, then the markers may still have a purpose. > >>=20 > >> That said, I only know the markers coming from=20 > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8407#section-3.2, which came from= =20 > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6087#section-3.1. As the co-cha= ir and=20 > >> shepherd for these drafts, I assure you that my limited understa= nding=20 > >> for the original motivation is correct. It's not intended to h= ave any=20 > >> relationship to copyrights, though RFC6087 conflates both a modu= le-level=20 > >> copyright (inside the YANG module) and markers (outside the YANG= module)=20 > >> in Section 3.1, which we de-conflicted in RFC8407. > >>=20 > >> Kent > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ietf-and-github mailing list > >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > >>=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > rfc-interest mailing list > > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > >=20 > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >=20 --Qob3tAKtse4gJnA8Tqc7hhLMN9rNqQ6si-- --k2baNJcOl8NS68PUa2qd4MHTBVTMiaKM5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1ifIACgkQTptXS4+7 FxrCBA/7B0GmRSznkI+vYBIimgrfsm4EWObAbl+eHlWULed2ltsPY0dU93pggMe8 nv8M9+8U3m/0wnIGEIPzl3e88ranHTWKR/jn0UIYf27OKna4I60BwPF1k3eUNHE2 Kej16F8or2l1A1foMttPByEIkpNz8QWkUFADNXY4cPEca3kQ6tcGGd9TiHanKEs0 xp564u9YadmrZajAqIVvylOEPGzJwSELP5kKQyV9dxtGi5kwWO8kv0/pV0MB1PAs ujb9mwv/y2hjXiOjK3kHQaowkYSfmCQHmiDfWTEiaUgircOa8jaNyE2g0ldC8dTa ExDRljtt5Vn9OkskU9fYzd6mNieceOVD3NRIy6Wyu0RBNueVMEVIkHBKNw0X0E5y p6AYn9SLzCERahVncHNbzwpaojxazWYjONy6NApSO0OMEVhSATIf1K9/wNgJRVop ynMiGVahMF9omx21ihGztMWQy5B5tVbySVCWNfHVgGpE0FmrZPqR/CiE/zVP4NGU gklHGB34j94QtwCnyaki7/cuqvO5IyXw8WzsNadSoH5F/qkJeQgFO8B3dw+Ig9kr MTzODK1VuTPQLbaeySLpkpXTdwb30no69o3YJPnDhs/pVTnCRCuDnozpfYV+NTQq ZASYsJt0rocYCEV/3hJAAn77PQRqTgzz7DN6BIZL7B1I8uSldHA= =vw4o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k2baNJcOl8NS68PUa2qd4MHTBVTMiaKM5-- From nobody Tue Feb 26 11:47:32 2019 Return-Path: <010001692b5900b0-a1d0677a-0979-421e-b4c1-c054cdbfbab8-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8F61292F1 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:47:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bVdF4w-WK9DV for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76AB11200D8 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:47:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=ug7nbtf4gccmlpwj322ax3p6ow6yfsug; d=amazonses.com; t=1551210447; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=BLz49T7jYawYe8KW9iIsWYXMGsCl2AnbC9UrAKNmcLc=; b=f5bPZH6xLirUXL6+iGNz5o8EqDooc+Tp/HN3/P9TeDEbZCKTvhsM3f3BbG0V2WbU W6pkWCJnq4KfYPbXTwexC9YlOb5WQGelnNsxDAnB3WS4K/jYW3QTryL9x4P5V7hsJth DBzyiy+Nj9bq7mAlzfBzbDUk6/91CT7shHlC0HQs= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:47:27 +0000 Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <010001692b5900b0-a1d0677a-0979-421e-b4c1-c054cdbfbab8-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.02.26-54.240.8.83 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:47:30 -0000 Hi Henrik, Just responding to your comment about the "name" attribute (all your = other comments were on the level). While RFC 7991's description of the "name" attribute is compellingly = close to the intended need, it doesn't explicitly state that "name" MAY = or MUST NOT include relative directory paths. My naive = reading/understanding is that the "name" is just the name of the file = itself, the so called "basename" of a complete filepath value. At = least, having "name" be defined to have this concrete purpose seems to = have cross-cutting value. =20 My purpose seems twisted by comparison, to the extent that I question if = any other tool would want or need to know an inclusion's original = filepath value. On the other hand, "originalSrc" is semantically = perfect for my needs. Let me turn this around and ask, why does = preptool use "originalSrc" as opposed to "name" and, that being the = case, how is it any different for xiax? Regards, Kent From nobody Tue Feb 26 12:12:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0CA3124B0C for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ReB9EDwrYPO for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ABFB1288BD for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:50791 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gyj5W-0003Pd-LC; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 12:12:27 -0800 To: Kent Watsen References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692b5900b0-a1d0677a-0979-421e-b4c1-c054cdbfbab8-000000@email.amazonses.com> Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <08109861-0940-476d-7567-88c6f6b6939f@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 21:12:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010001692b5900b0-a1d0677a-0979-421e-b4c1-c054cdbfbab8-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4nDgBVttUETNLR8LdOBWM9OKdFlLBcGJ9" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:12:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --4nDgBVttUETNLR8LdOBWM9OKdFlLBcGJ9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oEGG8G4uKpcTicxfH0lTtJ3JvUEvDWcxD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Kent Watsen Cc: RFC Interest , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <08109861-0940-476d-7567-88c6f6b6939f@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [rfc-i] New Version Notification for draft-kwatsen-git-xiax-automation-00.txt References: <155112114000.10633.2593235416875795961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000169261421c7-978ecbf5-dcc4-4738-ba58-f409ce6adaf1-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100016926dbd0be-1c4219e8-5389-433c-9326-c17addd023c6-000000@email.amazonses.com> <05d6799b-b4ee-9f04-e77e-dd4f8ea4e3aa@levkowetz.com> <010001692afbb77c-4e1fe666-0631-48e5-aa44-54e477da77d2-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001692b5900b0-a1d0677a-0979-421e-b4c1-c054cdbfbab8-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001692b5900b0-a1d0677a-0979-421e-b4c1-c054cdbfbab8-000000@email.amazonses.com> --oEGG8G4uKpcTicxfH0lTtJ3JvUEvDWcxD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kent, On 2019-02-26 20:47, Kent Watsen wrote: > Hi Henrik, >=20 > Just responding to your comment about the "name" attribute (all your > other comments were on the level). >=20 > While RFC 7991's description of the "name" attribute is compellingly > close to the intended need, it doesn't explicitly state that "name" > MAY or MUST NOT include relative directory paths. My naive > reading/understanding is that the "name" is just the name of the file > itself, the so called "basename" of a complete filepath value. At > least, having "name" be defined to have this concrete purpose seems > to have cross-cutting value. >=20 > My purpose seems twisted by comparison, to the extent that I question > if any other tool would want or need to know an inclusion's original > filepath value. On the other hand, "originalSrc" is semantically > perfect for my needs. Let me turn this around and ask, why does > preptool use "originalSrc" as opposed to "name" and, that being the > case, how is it any different for xiax? I don't have information beyond what's given in RFC 7991 and RFC 7998, but in my mind the distinction is this: The "src" and "originalSrc" attributes are for the use of the preptool when moving external sources into the xml file for the purpose of having one single archival entity (file). There is no semantic defined for reversing this. Unfortunately, item 1 and 4 in Section 5.5.1 of RFC 7998[1] seems to set up a situation where the "src" value will be moved to "originalSrc" in some cases and not in others, and where pre-existence of "orgiginalSrc" will change the behaviour. This makes it unintended effects possible if other tools also use the "originalSrc" value. (Mmm. I think we need to revisit this part of RFC 7998 to make the conditions under which "src", "originalSrc", or both will exist). On top of this, Section 5.6.5 of RFC 7998 [2] specifies that "originalSrc= " be removed as part of publication; and Section 5.5.1 specifies that "src"= will be removed (in some?? cases) when "originalSrc" is filled in, which leaves you with neither "src" or "originalSrc" in the published document.= =2E. I'd be happiest if other tools did not touch "originalSrc", and only used "src" in order to point at external documents for inclusion by xml2rfc. That would avoid tool interdependencies. We then need to either make "name" useful for your purpose, or provide another way (possibly an xiax:name attribute) that will do. Best regards, Henrik [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7998#section-5.5.1 [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7998#section-5.6.5 --oEGG8G4uKpcTicxfH0lTtJ3JvUEvDWcxD-- --4nDgBVttUETNLR8LdOBWM9OKdFlLBcGJ9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAlx1naMACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqcVw/8CP9BG0EekRhfakMDfnpYcMS1ZPy7a67Cp7Hy1zR/Znd1iLox7dCrbR9n RuO7xEkZG0MNPO/KFgwUlyqelJief13LJUbTR52PoBflQjnfyaIOtfsfednH6z5h NeWXK6TV/VphhvqYc1VQcOVCjhtFtngHS2w44pBEr1lvAsn/WNzZGSD9/yoNX5lA tpQZbjTRF0DPSqMsI4LL0xanHHW5H3plRGucZyAPMTYHyQjAh6GtD2A8nkiB6UPU fMyp5FOm6tFnV3j1B+E6lfHDeeInbxDRcRy8LTKgM3PXF7uZRXoiN1vw74zesDBf qsnPR+hb2s5c/7rcWJI0a7DsvqNk18PaRVpgylveez76jj5ibmeM9AdRPxkJf0Qk dX7w/sIVaRXSpAuzkYNHIDXmT/quSE56PsqYYq+6sV6EvqGXEY8HbaoV2CO0ysrI BXMJ7DXjVma+raJG/0LkLtKdGCeH/C45GHOUlbQ9Qx/UM3kDdB7tcZUX1ZQLdvqJ l4lRqqOn/9OZMUkcmTChXrMgJpPjze3do2spm6utlfJpsyCJ8f/szhl3n52I5vuW WaGWlIGsUb5ACVk0BwG3p26Lvbu3PJ+AN2cWrj94fI9toS7+7dRhTaCMQrDw98wA 5ouin57+XAx1lU/KMSt3xW/MabsPcpLfvVg2zB3E3WdXmsxKT/M= =TQpT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4nDgBVttUETNLR8LdOBWM9OKdFlLBcGJ9--