From nobody Sat Feb 1 13:32:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B745A1200FE for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 13:32:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKE0U1px-52F for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 13:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4C2712004A for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 13:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4896k53WJJz6G8Ct for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 13:32:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1580592733; bh=CnnRfDmVjp0ukQPzZ2zyctS7w2b3/EoHa26k+mUW+WY=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=icznGgaYMa5cV1K9k5iBV6xQwkOFpBmq7UTGB5DYYJrPm3gaxwEgTwyFLMn2zxBDl /AVqB2d4hDNmiaqlgHbjOIdxLHMGTiepDZ3wCeroUMwiH67aDtTBBOQgvP/FibBMgL vWCfq7HNzf54jdPv7JOyS5Vv1o7BcH5zEXxntqyg= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4896k50cdYz6G8Cq for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 13:32:13 -0800 (PST) To: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 16:32:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 21:32:15 -0000 One of the things I do in order to find out about work outside of WGs I am involved in is that I read the internet-draft announcements. Mostly, I am happy to get updates there when new versions of drafts are sufficiently stable to be worth checking. So intermediate minor updates only being made to the github is not a problem. But it struck me that if early versions of drafts are only on github, and discussed on the WG list, this makes it much harder for me (and others who are trying to track work outside their center of attention) to know about the work. I am not sure what the right answer is. It seems that it would help if the guidelines encouraged people to post I-Ds as early as practical. Yours, Joel From nobody Sat Feb 1 19:25:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E925120043 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 19:25:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xBRY_aaTEQob for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 19:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FD32120020 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 19:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id q39so4824060pjc.0 for ; Sat, 01 Feb 2020 19:25:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qzzqIFL5BM/zbFraiZGvUxBIcIPx/vDdzY9T++8iCPw=; b=KRWclQy4/HuIDn77+WiZ0JXBJijJN3vLYm8jsYbrvQh7sthQJeOxYVtqnf9MXp+dth KxVGrDFhoXdFdhvrJ2yP/25slKSm5oe1eOuxoxaz4nTILqG4g3NXv6+rRrZrg3Xjpu9+ qpvSm3Jvtl5fwap0TQIi+Q3PTZcnNDyA4N9i3f31/FFM19z47VrTaeMsvnjaQ6qf5wej qUvVLTUKC0g8nNle6LNi0oM/oAz+HSoWly63WhUDcVBY7wzd0G91u/dLN5j8RD/DCDGH /Pkg9NzVHb3MQ2q0Fq0nTv+UcbViENWm+OhtVmxyW/t52oRw+2G51FIHKEbOaPMeNiV2 CGww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qzzqIFL5BM/zbFraiZGvUxBIcIPx/vDdzY9T++8iCPw=; b=efnE3Y/X4NxzjdTIKApAiz613AkSAtyy9P2Ti8C0snzSID6LeodvXI4VmFeErpnAyt j6fTZ2SZ7rvHePEM7Qy2Q5pKQRl/wGS3SaXumhsXJ3jm/LiYu+j2iT/JTw0O8ZPf89l7 KMkVIk6mTHvWraklsZAPEdgYsN0v0RXdyl6ZXpOgUtlnbdTU1u8g+PA/Zc/2wX5wlNgE OKIDQ3m+peusIRR5Fvg59ARrDknp/GmgU28uq+f0PwYPSRwNd3ev+jXUEWH7mIACicli 6562y9dkBFYwr94PpEnf4zMeduTTntX8PQvDoMDBw2mUkP3cHN1EPxrKEGZbTDgq/amR 6FYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW0wfuLCaSVkvEUGzzeLAITh3zw2VYbsjQf2sfaoe8qDnWOf9SY cxAH96Lz7nHGkdTuBwF87L6KoFBO X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzjDqEMBJdtBlCBkHIGzBHBJKls1RgdKO2m+X+TQ4qZbeJOTAF2GPFM32FLdE83/sKNBblV9Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:be03:: with SMTP id a3mr20363722pjs.99.1580613921084; Sat, 01 Feb 2020 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (88.161.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.161.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p24sm14709911pgk.19.2020.02.01.19.25.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 19:25:20 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 16:25:16 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 03:25:23 -0000 On 02-Feb-20 10:32, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > One of the things I do in order to find out about work outside of WGs I > am involved in is that I read the internet-draft announcements. > > Mostly, I am happy to get updates there when new versions of drafts are > sufficiently stable to be worth checking. So intermediate minor updates > only being made to the github is not a problem. > > But it struck me that if early versions of drafts are only on github, > and discussed on the WG list, this makes it much harder for me (and > others who are trying to track work outside their center of attention) > to know about the work. > > I am not sure what the right answer is. It seems that it would help if > the guidelines encouraged people to post I-Ds as early as practical. I'd be shocked if that wasn't the case. Otherwise we will get people posting pre-cooked drafts and blocking discussion by saying it's too late, we decided that on github. This is quite similar to the dilemma of when a design team should open up its thinking to the WG. Too soon is boring for everybody, too late damages the open process. Brian From nobody Sat Feb 1 21:25:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF4712004E for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 21:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEWGv-BaaCQA for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 21:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E7C2120041 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 21:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489KD36fqDz6GDt5; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 21:25:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1580621123; bh=lc/CbBhD27Uxb1DUsEUh7hzT7ttwLhvZdeRY3cqOWA4=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lASqBdja4NfEpX4q/y0PkoLmVxNbMjuo0pHcW9wH1S3mUzGOddSjukzV6ebPTMeU4 Sg7zm6L4r+bEmjHwnoV+rS+uiLV7z8zmX8RGR9qI8V4IbvR5AUcY8P3qT3oQxre2PV LVbcd5eleKOrlKVhLaZA4ZxeJ+H97cdgo/76h554= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 489KD337PMz6GD2k; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 21:25:23 -0800 (PST) To: Brian E Carpenter , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 00:25:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 05:25:25 -0000 I do not see a note giving this advice in the draft that is currently up for publication. I hope I am merely missing something. Yours, Joel On 2/1/2020 10:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 02-Feb-20 10:32, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> One of the things I do in order to find out about work outside of WGs I >> am involved in is that I read the internet-draft announcements. >> >> Mostly, I am happy to get updates there when new versions of drafts are >> sufficiently stable to be worth checking. So intermediate minor updates >> only being made to the github is not a problem. >> >> But it struck me that if early versions of drafts are only on github, >> and discussed on the WG list, this makes it much harder for me (and >> others who are trying to track work outside their center of attention) >> to know about the work. >> >> I am not sure what the right answer is. It seems that it would help if >> the guidelines encouraged people to post I-Ds as early as practical. > > I'd be shocked if that wasn't the case. Otherwise we will get people > posting pre-cooked drafts and blocking discussion by saying it's too late, > we decided that on github. > > This is quite similar to the dilemma of when a design team should open > up its thinking to the WG. Too soon is boring for everybody, too late > damages the open process. > > Brian > From nobody Sun Feb 2 08:06:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365BD120125 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 08:06:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CHhm6XNWrub for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 08:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD30712004D for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 08:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122331.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 012G3xNC004021; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 16:06:30 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=qBre+PtfjQvKFFeIpAhIilze/teU9DcDcBg5KmbVxb0=; b=VJfrfnkxgR2VyuwLSeS1Ta6elBUiWd2KXAqklaqtxr4980kTaigdKa6Svsnz1Tuq0mEY rKXgtseuqKucjofr31/WY+CRtc9qoP1FYQDZW/XErTRSxvji56USSjTxOtBf4LPY1Dn1 QWQ4mQriF7iWFeHYH/jHq3a8oKK74kldNxXuUKhY1/SvnYtz7akj49GZiNoWtfphCz5f Y8ha9PobheC/2Ovef0wgXM6f3h5YFUsP3+yCI57l80wJXig1O8a1Sj/RUT96q9x3CD0X XHS8CT3NI6WsbrKaMm0qqTf7B/l9ozMV8DlOLhoDlq+spXwquUS7Dlso74c8ztl+Evty eg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2xw7a843xd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 02 Feb 2020 16:06:30 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 012G2agG018082; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:06:29 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2xw5hyknbj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:06:28 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:06:27 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:06:27 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts Thread-Index: AQHV2Uc56V4TzOgwFE+xHVK0ygF1RKgHkgkAgAAhjYCAAF9MAA== Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 16:06:27 +0000 Message-ID: <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.80.176] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-02-02_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=839 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-2002020129 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-02-02_04:2020-01-31, 2020-02-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=811 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1911200001 definitions=main-2002020129 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 16:06:33 -0000 PiAgICBJIGRvIG5vdCBzZWUgYSBub3RlIGdpdmluZyB0aGlzIGFkdmljZSBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQg dGhhdCBpcyBjdXJyZW50bHkgdXAgDQogICAgZm9yIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uLiAgSSBob3BlIEkgYW0g bWVyZWx5IG1pc3Npbmcgc29tZXRoaW5nLg0KICANCkRvIHdlIGhhdmUgd3JpdHRlbiBhZHZpY2Ug b24gd2hlbiBhIGRlc2lnbiBncm91cCBzaG91bGQgcHV0IGl0cyB3b3JrIHVwPw0KDQpXaHkgZG8g eW91IHRoaW5rIHRoaXMgaXMgZGlmZmVyZW50LCBvdGhlciB0aGFuIGJlaW5nIGEgbW9yZSBvcGVu IGRlc2lnbiBncm91cD8NCg0K From nobody Sun Feb 2 09:06:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9539012008D for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BdoDu9SRs6QO for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B0E212004D for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489cmR2hWkz1nylv; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1580663159; bh=jrb04N1WkCLwN+EjXwy/BF1s7mH1I6+Db+t5oq2lEtk=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=AC+lURelpk+Mv0TeBmo6S2xxrkhnzMo9znOXaZtwR7hqJz1+V5w8SMkt4u+oJuG1O nzdTRTs5i9cw5OsvFj8wYJZCCn967q02CKgx2gAqzgYcArs2sCo1tfCYPV3500i2Vl Q8n7Gv5XB1DS2kz/XeA8g8DTdYqb7OUfnpLLiRA0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 489cmQ3sTjz1nt41; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:05:58 -0800 (PST) To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <228b3c13-97c2-160f-35b7-f05b8d2d42af@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:05:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:06:02 -0000 There is a similarity. I wish there were an easy way to know what design teams are being spawned in working groups that I am not following. But I do not know a sensible way to do that. Currently, I can generally learn of new work because I-Ds are posted. In fact, we frequently tell people to post an I-D for their ideas. However, I am starting to see folks sending notices of I-Ds that are purely in github repositories. This means that there is no I-D announcement. I am not asking to prohibit that. But I am asking for help so that those of us who are trying to look broadly have some assistance in doing so. Yours, Joel On 2/2/2020 11:06 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I do not see a note giving this advice in the draft that is currently up > for publication. I hope I am merely missing something. > > Do we have written advice on when a design group should put its work up? > > Why do you think this is different, other than being a more open design group? > From nobody Sun Feb 2 09:08:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E57F120127 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:08:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRwXkRI0fBcA for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53DC012004D for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489cqp1V81z1nym6; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:08:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1580663334; bh=z50TLJDff0sdGcU0Vw2wvyU3TUkMp50UuBNHkb5vGGQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=WkJERk/ZogkGbk0gEPw1DDz4AnWW+HPbRBdNuDjq4CXSd53LTYBtZswa+sTAiqoFr uGSp85s5mbTzlgfR4WXxQubM35mdIHugVTJIKY+GmxumyKrUTQzsWLgh9t8/9hWk/V x4NFRWwRqPQnKLCQL21MA8omT2Lege1oI9qcZD7k= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 489cqn4MNFz1nt41; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:08:53 -0800 (PST) To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <34ca2900-daf2-fe33-c03c-56371ef76455@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:08:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:08:55 -0000 Thinking about how I would put the advice, something along the lines of "if you are willing to call WG attention to your draft, please post the first (then current) draft as an I-D so other folks will also know about it." Yours, Joel On 2/2/2020 11:06 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I do not see a note giving this advice in the draft that is currently up > for publication. I hope I am merely missing something. > > Do we have written advice on when a design group should put its work up? > > Why do you think this is different, other than being a more open design group? > From nobody Sun Feb 2 09:30:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C99120058 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kls7v6JdPA0 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B87A120033 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts Thread-Index: AQHV2Uc56V4TzOgwFE+xHVK0ygF1RKgHkgkAgAAhjYCAAF9MAIAAZHCA//+y7gA= Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 17:30:04 +0000 Message-ID: <1287422A-5AC3-404E-B976-BE0944A9F9CB@akamai.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <228b3c13-97c2-160f-35b7-f05b8d2d42af@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <228b3c13-97c2-160f-35b7-f05b8d2d42af@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.80.157] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-02-02_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=941 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-2002020140 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-02-02_04:2020-01-31, 2020-02-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=908 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1911200001 definitions=main-2002020141 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:30:11 -0000 PiAgICBUaGVyZSBpcyBhIHNpbWlsYXJpdHkuICBJIHdpc2ggdGhlcmUgd2VyZSBhbiBlYXN5IHdh eSB0byBrbm93IHdoYXQgDQogICAgZGVzaWduIHRlYW1zIGFyZSBiZWluZyBzcGF3bmVkIGluIHdv cmtpbmcgZ3JvdXBzIHRoYXQgSSBhbSBub3QgDQogICAgZm9sbG93aW5nLiAgQnV0IEkgZG8gbm90 IGtub3cgYSBzZW5zaWJsZSB3YXkgdG8gZG8gdGhhdC4NCiAgDQpDb25zaXN0ZW50IG5hbWluZywg c3VjaCBhcyBpZXRmLXdnLVhYWFhYIGFzIHJlY29tbWVuZGVkIGJ5IHRoaXMgV0csIG1pZ2h0IGhl bHAgYSBiaXQuDQogIA0KPiAgICBDdXJyZW50bHksIEkgY2FuIGdlbmVyYWxseSBsZWFybiBvZiBu ZXcgd29yayBiZWNhdXNlIEktRHMgYXJlIHBvc3RlZC4gDQogICAgSW4gZmFjdCwgd2UgZnJlcXVl bnRseSB0ZWxsIHBlb3BsZSB0byBwb3N0IGFuIEktRCBmb3IgdGhlaXIgaWRlYXMuIA0KICAgIEhv d2V2ZXIsIEkgYW0gc3RhcnRpbmcgdG8gc2VlIGZvbGtzIHNlbmRpbmcgbm90aWNlcyBvZiBJLURz IHRoYXQgYXJlIA0KICAgIHB1cmVseSBpbiBnaXRodWIgcmVwb3NpdG9yaWVzLg0KDQpUaGF0J3Mg bm90IGFuIEktRC4gIEl0J3MgYSBkcmFmdC4gIElnbm9yZSBpdCB1bnRpbCBpdCBiZWNvbWVzIGFu IEktRCBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudC4NCiANCg0K From nobody Sun Feb 2 11:30:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C9B1200B1 for ; 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[111.69.161.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l69sm1837698pgd.1.2020.02.02.11.30.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:30:39 -0800 (PST) To: "Salz, Rich" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 08:30:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 19:30:43 -0000 On 03-Feb-20 05:06, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I do not see a note giving this advice in the draft that is currently up > for publication. I hope I am merely missing something. > > Do we have written advice on when a design group should put its work up? Good question. I don't think we do. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-6.5 just says "The output of a design team is always subject to approval, rejection or modification by the WG as a whole." And indeed, the question of when a design team should expose its output to the WG has always been a bit unclear. Something like "When you have something worth saying to the WG, say it as an I-D" perhaps. > Why do you think this is different, other than being a more open design group? I don't think it is. On the contrary, I think github is an excellent tool for design teams to use; much better than private email. I think that Joel's point applies more generally, not just to github. Regards Brian From nobody Sun Feb 2 11:48:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314A812004D for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:48:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RpwRNr0mb2Eq for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCCA7120033 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id 12so5405773pjb.5 for ; Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=jcwn0RDOv2CT8ySpaQd8EHfkU6xcmdk4+6Um6pL0r1U=; b=jH7F4kWTrocDn23EF7SdlQgF5fpfXkxosIf2hwjnMTz9j5sBnbt8wVuK2kAwuvDfj2 0lZoP6WSOkuKSrAzqnXZhIGbLuYIZycw0LwJBSB8t/nxGmD2525cfpjmc4/Ap9741dQO x+I5ZIHBHbluUHBMjpgmImyFkgC0hA/hsNTPASOn/4/GoBAUfQ6l6HJpSyqYiQ3HxiNM KT1YaM3mfqZ8xRpulHA9sBvi4WKg7g0hqBWIM6Oc9x+yCsf9sOm5E+vfRpJT5qgGZoHc hSyO4s/yRVCgmh2HaqQ6RqbvF8Jk+AF7E2rV+Nq02aOi14yxwpsr3HnVqnnNIxcCRfZu fxIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=jcwn0RDOv2CT8ySpaQd8EHfkU6xcmdk4+6Um6pL0r1U=; b=YRBnkEB3lw0feBg8Vs9PVWj9XVs9Yy167ICU1vLJoCUfJ4qAbNx92KOSFSvCITsob2 b3l2Qf32i/9jWQ6Y3AXfuat1UrT1N2sb5hcMY8srXjLWmWRkyHnmGFJcNKhB/mSXc0GF ksI7kGyk0GHOK/HOVMHoBN02u5U09ostJQvBT9ZILpdJeHSDqGAIa1XabQxBQ2SuGk3H mEOfMRoCV90T2cTwdPznJjMBROWbnsW1mTdTEl6ju4vs68GWUqsIJh384EkMtHMfzSD2 0FHjUF2dd6ghmrFf+jHrPYrkEJ1Z06ErtYhJuTIT0DSW6XQ2mBWICkXn7RzWw8hwV6fm ewMA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWWd/BYSTh8ifaCM+jVHDxYlJpMDg0MrMOAiZxxR2UvdcVDdoXO eJquUpoQWSdx9opr6ZLjVpE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxUPe9VHZ0dDhrqKovkJ62xPa5SnptJbeYdYJlnKS+JJog7rvjb/u4tkKedMFG2JmTP3sROhw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b68c:: with SMTP id c12mr19780797pls.160.1580672912889; Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fb90:5624:d5cb:d188:4a17:33ec:522? ([2607:fb90:5624:d5cb:d188:4a17:33ec:522]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q17sm9036868pfg.123.2020.02.02.11.48.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:48:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:48:31 -0800 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Message-Id: <92EABB82-5C7E-4C80-9927-BB608B181199@gmail.com> References: <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 19:48:35 -0000 >> Do we have written advice on when a design group should put its work up? >=20 > And indeed, the question of when a design team > should expose its output to the WG has always been a bit unclear. Somethin= g like > "When you have something worth saying to the WG, say it as an I-D" perhaps= .=20 I agree, but I think I might say it a little differently. The point isn=E2=80= =99t =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=99re done=E2=80=9D; the point is =E2=80=9Cwe need the= comments of the working group, which might be that we=E2=80=99re done=E2=80= =9D. So the time to file the draft is when all known viewpoints have been address= ed, and the document is in readable form. The draft might contain =E2=80=9CT= BD=E2=80=9D sections, or questions. It is, if you will, a request for commen= ts, and a viewpoint that may evoke dispute or commentary, but is designed to= bring the group a step closer to consensus on a problem.= From nobody Sun Feb 2 12:08:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3441200B1 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSVZK0aLH9wR for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3616120033 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489hqJ5HPlz1nt41; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:08:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1580674124; bh=sdyRjberyyrwVjBy6eftFRi4/hcUNYYX7kA6dZufjI4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=q7tVdaDvnvH7yJWGoFruSp/Ww/Gi8n8HL5QactSlickDiTscpwzu5nUjUhXAj23bc FJtVScBQ+gb9WTgQppxGqQvAan8+QY408SWeI7EzRnI8dXGOd33sfXzhnBwuhpDVP6 E35o9ICSyz4SFqziNxDq+lynddlBfftlxdXpcqXM= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 489hqJ1rm9z1nsqh; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 12:08:44 -0800 (PST) To: Fred Baker Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" References: <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <92EABB82-5C7E-4C80-9927-BB608B181199@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 15:08:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <92EABB82-5C7E-4C80-9927-BB608B181199@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 20:08:47 -0000 Actually, I would hope that folks post drafts well before they think they are "done". The reason for my comment is that with folks pointing to github more often, I think it is important to emphasis the helpfulness of posting that initial draft. Yours, Joel On 2/2/2020 2:48 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >>> Do we have written advice on when a design group should put its work up? >> >> And indeed, the question of when a design team >> should expose its output to the WG has always been a bit unclear. Something like >> "When you have something worth saying to the WG, say it as an I-D" perhaps. > > I agree, but I think I might say it a little differently. The point isn’t “we’re done”; the point is “we need the comments of the working group, which might be that we’re done”. > > So the time to file the draft is when all known viewpoints have been addressed, and the document is in readable form. The draft might contain “TBD” sections, or questions. It is, if you will, a request for comments, and a viewpoint that may evoke dispute or commentary, but is designed to bring the group a step closer to consensus on a problem. > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > From nobody Sun Feb 2 23:20:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941EE1208F1 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 23:20:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=OCE9YftD; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=KzWh0jTY Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cd1opQ5SZB6K for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 23:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79D7A120869 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2020 23:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86C26F7 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 02:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 03 Feb 2020 02:20:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=7zZ7DpmSES2ilkl+JXLP75sN1YLYnaE +07vww9dfyPM=; b=OCE9YftD2kZobYfPwMIU5EjRwggG/dxmlnjBkETXh8hfFZd YyxXVqiv7DeV2u3Q5mGwt8jQA5nF/pQLXt7q+qs+AD42aNYytvX0we1EL6I9gvv5 yOnx/DWiSgWGNEFlyLyCFoPPV53NREvG6T+cmWCrwyXEIU8xacXQaX+4GcDoDrFZ YD7Oak8feY0KU9iL6Gg/kkgithm7XSPe8IO6GjJabvxWibkkCGtAIrY0i7pb0ekw crkl6GhcDZ5U9Vap0YPB4IbLE8fHRLz7e63QTRytOPmzO2X/m1bvSq7rJ5myh7+d Cr760V1pq63aJXMEYH5kSex0FCEvK7A7WXuvnvQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=7zZ7Dp mSES2ilkl+JXLP75sN1YLYnaE+07vww9dfyPM=; b=KzWh0jTY/TYCPMyOseAX5Q EOkX2TwX/6wYW7jPEgsFaNJ/HNa7lllZvDojfna/X7nNeUNrIDxiLZtNtLZM0vr2 le4bQNKMLhPhafjNoLnRk5dTEY27oVcaI7sKbH3cPqm182p8PngtjtKCrQdrRfss GKbvsyIe+V1Pg0bgGxN69ba7rd/EoQWuvLaUbrJZJOi1hpKRk8vKBMeytlDCEkVb zoTSkmgJr7nI+hMAVuLlLfdrOFfjK/AfQiF8uk+lEr6EClTiPWaETp8zmNGT3hc0 18AkjWgrltaNX6yQrCMXxk+H9/OY7BDQJWNtZCWfbTj6V2s+eh3RcpWkxMIM1Pfw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgeeigddutdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucgoufhushhpvggtthffohhmrghinhculdegledmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuff homhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrihhonecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghr rghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2C30AE00A2; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 02:20:38 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 08:20:16 +0100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 07:20:42 -0000 On Sun, Feb 2, 2020, at 20:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I think that Joel's point applies more generally, not just to github. This is, I think, a key point. https://ietf-gitwg.github.io/using-github/draft-ietf-git-using-github.html#name-internet-draft-publication might be expanded to recommend publication of drafts at other times, but I have two reasons - on top of the above - that we might not: * This is a document about *working group* procedures. If we get into individual draft management, that's scope creep. * I have found that the "link to a Google doc or GitHub repo" pattern routinely results in a request for someone to post a draft. To my mind, that has been sufficient thus far. 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[130.216.38.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z29sm21139547pgc.21.2020.02.03.14.09.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Feb 2020 14:09:28 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 11:09:23 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 22:09:32 -0000 On 03-Feb-20 20:20, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Sun, Feb 2, 2020, at 20:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I think that Joel's point applies more generally, not just to github. > > This is, I think, a key point. > > https://ietf-gitwg.github.io/using-github/draft-ietf-git-using-github.html#name-internet-draft-publication might be expanded to recommend publication of drafts at other times, but I have two reasons - on top of the above - that we might not: > > * This is a document about *working group* procedures. If we get into individual draft management, that's scope creep. Fair enough. However, I think it is worth making the point somewhere that there is an analogy between a subset of participants who use a repo and a subset of participants that work as a design team, so the RFC2418 provisions for design teams should apply. The more general question (when should a design team or github clique post a draft) seems more like a topic for gendispatch. Brian > > * I have found that the "link to a Google doc or GitHub repo" pattern routinely results in a request for someone to post a draft. To my mind, that has been sufficient thus far. > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > From nobody Thu Feb 6 09:38:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E032512010D for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S1gSdQsm41qr for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D73C1200B9 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id q8so7023522ljb.2 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 09:38:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IfM5tKDvh+4i/89Nqws4JwKgcXC43DbjCAD/GPIyP68=; b=cNtUvGEuVCA4Ry1z1HUnR4iFNQHZFxSQOwMl1wHB0VU6NU/7NCFNQqlXtHwsSYJxm2 5gTwY7PZRM5rAY5yFI7zWVW6fKzqI3j8O55xIE/X5bduZhjY2ykJhKo2wtVXgZAtOIhp Fy9yUdKojwEI1tIFf6ymrHYH1/wMF+HB0/1Ytn1ruwNnphNI39dQ4+uV5kNkUnpxca2a TEWg5kx3k0f+WoDOmSmL8pWzCJq51x5DRCCjpvnarAoOcS3jfud9chucJiiWVdmym+qa fCFb/jpJCJbCbkW1l2osjqZvhjNr9t5vIeAj9FjmRAN5WdMp/A+8ocumDxmkVx2gSHs5 oVrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IfM5tKDvh+4i/89Nqws4JwKgcXC43DbjCAD/GPIyP68=; b=ohbsypQEPW2TnC22MmXuHGasLt0ctxAQ7xWdhETBOEuw0X7l9JCW4oQb1KZuPeqAjE 6buX3Oa3O8da+yl3Vpj3guXtL3TqElts0hnB2or3cZK/EzYV2xcgj3gNU0RCeNc1o8xx qGz3jEytIJ494d9dtWYXoKJjA61E+/pDPcerUJYAH/ImHkEvDQQ68sVj4eeGMss1uaAX 5DIR1WklMmaIGWLq62NKpOPXIVsXRGGI44U53X3NNSY8Q4NN5XmCL/CpdOmaTpVKoypm D8qwt0qw7hF3cU5SMMo+PwC3mJcFMllbU+sE/VWk0pgrAdDlxLKfbgLWsSbLM12BuKyt pphQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXyjZ5t0PLjAYIUc6OS2oO96ELuvuTYMYbNqZbiUXhVsTxcl07q FH6g3LvqUPvMcpENiC92lDKga5+w/O//dM/ZBZ9Sis5ix10= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzass65qLhDDEQ8X6eAYZrZ8xpfEsoBztUbHRVGDKfY/my+TXJC7ZXhdzUMUTQ4TSuRBiILyK3lXg953TmjM0A= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9d3:: with SMTP id 202mr2762711ljj.60.1581010723476; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 09:38:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:38:17 -0600 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f17df059debbeda" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 17:38:48 -0000 --0000000000008f17df059debbeda Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" FWIW, On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 4:09 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 03-Feb-20 20:20, Martin Thomson wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 2, 2020, at 20:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> I think that Joel's point applies more generally, not just to github. > > > > This is, I think, a key point. > > > > > https://ietf-gitwg.github.io/using-github/draft-ietf-git-using-github.html#name-internet-draft-publication > might be expanded to recommend publication of drafts at other times, but I > have two reasons - on top of the above - that we might not: > > > > * This is a document about *working group* procedures. If we get into > individual draft management, that's scope creep. > > Fair enough. However, I think it is worth making the point somewhere that > there is an analogy between a subset of participants who use a repo and a > subset of participants that work as a design team, so the RFC2418 > provisions for design teams should apply. > > The more general question (when should a design team or github clique post > a draft) seems more like a topic for gendispatch. > I agree with Martin that saying more than this is scope creep, even if it's useful to chop off the creepy parts and take them to gendispatch. I think it IS fair to say "people working on an early version of a draft in Github is the equivalent of a design team working on an early version of a draft using private e-mail, so the usual working group practices and cautions for design teams apply to Github as well", or something like that. Best, Spencer > Brian > > > > > * I have found that the "link to a Google doc or GitHub repo" pattern > routinely results in a request for someone to post a draft. To my mind, > that has been sufficient thus far. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-and-github mailing list > > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --0000000000008f17df059debbeda Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FWIW,

On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 4:09 PM Brian E Carpenter= <brian.e.carpenter@gmail= .com> wrote:
On 03-Feb-20 20:20, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 2, 2020, at 20:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> I think that Joel's point applies more generally, not just to = github.
>
> This is, I think, a key point.
>
> https://ietf-gitwg.github.io/using-github/draft-ietf-git-using-= github.html#name-internet-draft-publication might be expanded to recomm= end publication of drafts at other times, but I have two reasons - on top o= f the above - that we might not:
>
> * This is a document about *working group* procedures.=C2=A0 If we get= into individual draft management, that's scope creep.

Fair enough. However, I think it is worth making the point somewhere that t= here is an analogy between a subset of participants who use a repo and a su= bset of participants that work as a design team, so the RFC2418 provisions = for design teams should apply.

The more general question (when should a design team or github clique post = a draft) seems more like a topic for gendispatch.

=
I agree with Martin that saying more than this is scope creep, even if it&#= 39;s useful to chop off the creepy parts and take them to gendispatch.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

I think it IS fair to say "people w= orking on an early version of a draft in Github is the equivalent of a desi= gn team working on an early version of a draft using private e-mail, so the= usual working group practices and cautions for design teams apply to Githu= b as well", or something like that.=C2=A0

Bes= t,

Spencer
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
> * I have found that the "link to a Google doc or GitHub repo"= ; pattern routinely results in a request for someone to post a draft.=C2=A0= To my mind, that has been sufficient thus far.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-and-github mailing list
> Ietf-and= -github@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iet= f-and-github
>

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
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The document is almost ready for LC. I have just a couple of = substantive questions and suggestions to be answered before initiating = the LC. I=E2=80=99ve also included some nits that should be resolved = together with any last call comments. =3D=3D=3D Substantive comments =3D=3D=3D =3D=3D General =3D=3D Should there be some words in this document about how research groups = might draw inspiration from this document, but that specific guidance = for research groups is out of scope? =3D=3D Section 2.1 =3D=3D draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration settled on the naming convention = ietf-wg- so this document needs to be updated to align with = that. =3D=3D Section 4.2 =3D=3D Do you want to say a few words about who determines what constitutes a = "substantial" change (or add a forward reference to Section 5 and = provide some uniform statement about it there)? For example, might some = WGs determine that anything non-editorial is substantial (also discussed = in 5.3.2)? Whose call would that be? =3D=3D Section 4.3 =3D=3D Should we see if the secretariat can setup server infrastructure to = support github-notify-ml for WGs that want it, and have a process = whereby WGs can request support for it? This would imply changes to = draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration rather than to this document, but = I figured I would ask while I'm reviewing this. =3D=3D Section 10 =3D=3D I'd like to suggest: OLD Maintaining a mirror of a repository that is hosted on GitHub is = relatively simple and might be considered as a way to provide a backup = for the primary repository. NEW Maintaining a mirror of a repository that is hosted on GitHub is = relatively simple and is specified in [GH-CONFIG] to provide IETF-hosted = backups for WG repositories. =20 =3D=3D Nits =3D=3D Section 1: Perhaps you should add a citation to www.github.com on first = use of Github. Section 1.1: Same comment as above, adding a citation for Git might be = useful for completeness/posterity. Section 1.4: s/does require/requires/ Section 3: s/accomplish the Charter/accomplish the charter objectives/ Section 3.1: s/Working Group Chairs that decide/Working Group Chairs who = decide/ Section 3.4: You might want to clarify what you mean by text-based (some = people might interpret it as documents being submitted in binary or = something ... better to be clear) Section 4.1.2: "Restrictions on closing issues are generally not = advisable until a document has reached a certain degree of maturity." = This is a little vague. Perhaps you mean "Restrictions on who can close = an issue"? Section 4.2: s/how they manage changes./how they manage changes amongst = themselves./ Section 6: s/MAY request the creation of an Internet-Draft at any = time/MAY request a revision of an Internet-Draft being managed on Github = at any time/ Section 7: s/GitHub, mailing lists, and in-person meetings/GitHub, = mailing lists, interim meetings, and IETF meetings/ Section 7: s/explicitly identify/identify/ Section 8: s/For a document that use/For a document that uses/ Section 9: s/that raises what a new issue/that raises a new issue/ Thanks, Alissa From nobody Fri Feb 7 08:30:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4501208FB; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 08:30:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IEReKjUCBDs8; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 08:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-f67.google.com (mail-io1-f67.google.com [209.85.166.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8BE120911; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 08:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-f67.google.com with SMTP id d15so176697iog.3; Fri, 07 Feb 2020 08:30:15 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=80kjWypNWsTJ1JfC7JZDBR+vC6maIJckYHuDLcijPoA=; b=oF08Fc+ysbQQiP5CLzn0dIiUOexcBPJwe02zcl+G13pu3fobIhd/u0YxNGvFu40NE/ eEAX6d7UF13A6BB2blKnNEZVh+AA5SoYwiyjZErIbPpmJnbJWCLAIrLis179nw/2yYH/ LDgLoTfpiQP46xZw091bUPruKRU/rpZW5+oTeAdWVaB6GjGxwBWO9P0i2d60WigxvFYc XgopiC9UdEd2tvalMeWSaja/P/tmpKkVkPwz5UtoiU1xdOsyb8xnbsJ/JO77WbYn5I5c LQ3hOxTrRcvV5hf/XkwxACzhLYN3BEk83ho5geTi8kwkzG5qBy2S72hqsxavJgJXoi1s Cu4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCiWCGG2kULJxcrZm8stTQrvLEGFKa4dim0yjAUc6G6Xlvveqs oRUdrpf11nb61FZLtJXN/J2fogyp8I5TUy/hh2ShRM9j X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxXsRg9MgxmGW0vUWez8eIkKyrz5MlhUGHB0+/3K90f97DdYuSWUr02m7HBnd9TXt+BJUWSXbLqwx6NVhV1mYQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9b94:: with SMTP id r20mr175213iom.140.1581093014117; Fri, 07 Feb 2020 08:30:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Barry Leiba Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 11:30:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration@ietf.org Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, git-chairs@ietf.org, caw@heapingbits.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] AD review of draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-05 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 16:30:20 -0000 I=E2=80=99ve picked this document up as responsible AD, because Alissa is a= n author on the document. There=E2=80=99s one item in my review that I=E2=80= =99d like to have addressed before this goes out for last call; the rest don=E2=80=99= t need to block last call, but they should be easy to address. Blocking comment: =E2=80=94 Section 2.4 =E2=80=94 When a working group is closed, the team with administrative access would be removed and the owner list would be returned to its initial composition. What =E2=80=9Cinitial composition=E2=80=9D? The Secretariat and the ADs at= the time the organization was created? That doesn=E2=80=99t make sense. The Secretariat and current ADs at the time of closing? That=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=9Cinitial=E2=80=9D. Or do you have something else in mind? The rest: =E2=80=94 Abstract =E2=80=94 Just a note here that the second paragraph should be removed before publication. I=E2=80=99ve put this in as an RFC Editor Note. =E2=80=94 Section 1 =E2=80=94 proposals in this document, the functional requirements would need to be discussed with the IETF Tools Team, and the IETF Secretariat who would need to support various pieces of what is proposed herein. Nit: the comma after =E2=80=9CTools Team=E2=80=9D is misplaced, and should = be after =E2=80=9CSecretariat=E2=80=9D instead. =E2=80=94 Section 2 =E2=80=94 For example, see and for working examples of automation that is in use in some working groups. Two things here: 1. Nit: =E2=80=9CFor example =E2=80=A6 for working examples=E2=80=9D is red= undant; I suggest starting the sentence with =E2=80=9CSee=E2=80=9D. 2. I=E2=80=99m not sure that these URLs will stand the test of time, remain= ing valid in an archival document. On the other hand, having them here as examples is certainly useful. Perhaps we could archive them on an ietf.com page, or perhaps the RFC Editor could do so on an rfc-editor.com page? In this document the question of whether processes should be manual or automated is deliberately left ambiguous =E2=80=9CAmbiguous=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t the right word =E2=80=94 it carri= es a connotation of confusion. I suggest =E2=80=9Cunspecified=E2=80=9D. And there needs to be= a comma after that word, whichever we choose. =E2=80=94 Section 2.2 =E2=80=94 be able to run steps 3 and 4 from Section 2.1 so that the rest of the activities in this section such as personnel work the same for the organizations that were created on their own. I find this awkward; I think it needs commas and a minor edit: NEW be able to run steps 3 and 4 from Section 2.1 so that the rest of the activities in this section, such as personnel changes, work the same way as for organizations that were created as specified herein. END =E2=80=94 Section 2.5 =E2=80=94 o Creating a new repository for an individual draft that is at the discretion of the WG chair; What does =E2=80=9Can individual draft that is at the discretion of the WG = chair=E2=80=9D mean? =E2=80=94 Section 4 =E2=80=94 An attacker who can change the contents of Internet Drafts, particularly late in a working group's process, can possibly cause unnoticed changes in protocols that are eventually adopted. Indeed, and so should we propose any mitigations? Using a github instance that=E2=80=99s maintained and secured under ietf.org? At the very least we=E2=80=99ll need to rely on careful review during the publication process, including verifying what changes were made at each step and flagging questionable changes. The text here should probably say something more. --=20 Barry From nobody Sat Feb 8 14:38:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A9E1200B9 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 14:38:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=RVlXe/p0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=hArQ5hG6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id unqAzAHnJOCl for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 14:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F42612009E for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 14:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B242179E; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 17:38:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 17:38:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh= Uq3SmSWx5z77Hy9qRF5vYyr9TDtM6qvxt5DJ0egoufo=; b=RVlXe/p0QgN7suWt KbeYt6+uP2iAfjQEr84iOTk6/RBpm3tDGT8FE5XHeqxSiAamMG8mGwYIzQD4olx1 2GpkO5WqQ+3muwr/UL7REc1ljbijj91IL+GRP/ONXiDGaAZBztyezpqRdT5yZi/4 c0k9XXuDGS4XNm+xKr2KCc5IEsMHZkMk+FVzNNw7TZUEks8+mGuB513gigFOEoUr M9ql1/xg0dQ6S3W55dx9lq8mMer2J6ZdalHEz0UHZReRpOQUD4GUQfQimV5WmZbI 7vNjnRIGuJFFXVjugj0O2S297+CwN6dcILUFzcY4MBtE8X+ooAGLvh7yKM96T1nQ +qZQLA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Uq3SmSWx5z77Hy9qRF5vYyr9TDtM6qvxt5DJ0egou fo=; b=hArQ5hG6rwwU4xJuQjVVMMYHK//fXSd+KP1DZ1BTqYNOkPRskhiOODVlj hK6k7dNyE8/q5q+sCj8Jae1kV1t2wcw+aZxzHu30RAcwIE71P2eL198NGD5dqCmC k0Cvin0rytXhoPeBHdJvyhlQadYSKYPEbEBN4rXmqQjEP4F++xlFLCw6+Ykqbcai oUZp+03IoI4NBCZQuV/JXgq42geHIgM/7ja2CWAjeGA+XIuBgQpdwnGdC/JQhjco pM+7opDkqnXxywau7+fi/PfZ1QcLrvAm9oL3zB8sxNz5W7RHtZHOQPC0h52CYPLR 1LFaTDvCtQBfJEqONID5iWE+2d2og== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrheejgdduieeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffvufffoffkjghfgggtgfesthhqmhdtredtjeenucfhrhhomhepfdevhhhr ihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggrfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth eqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucfkphepjeefrdelvddrieegrddu fedtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheptg grfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.0.0.184] (c-73-92-64-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.92.64.130]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D7C4F328005D; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 17:38:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher Wood" To: "Alissa Cooper" Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:38:37 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <0FC08CA4-36D9-4804-A639-DC1175FA47E2@heapingbits.net> In-Reply-To: <1894C2A4-3788-439D-A1E2-17B819A2F75D@cooperw.in> References: <1894C2A4-3788-439D-A1E2-17B819A2F75D@cooperw.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] AD evaluation of draft-ietf-git-using-github-03 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 22:38:57 -0000 Thanks for the review, Alissa! I made two PRs that should address your = substantive comments [1] and nits [2]. Please have a look. I also left = some comments inline below. On 6 Feb 2020, at 12:53, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > =3D=3D=3D Substantive comments =3D=3D=3D > > =3D=3D General =3D=3D > > Should there be some words in this document about how research groups = > might draw inspiration from this document, but that specific guidance = > for research groups is out of scope? Good idea! I made this change in [1]. > > =3D=3D Section 2.1 =3D=3D > > draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration settled on the naming = > convention ietf-wg- so this document needs to be updated to = > align with that. This is also done in [1]. > > =3D=3D Section 4.2 =3D=3D > > Do you want to say a few words about who determines what constitutes a = > "substantial" change (or add a forward reference to Section 5 and = > provide some uniform statement about it there)? For example, might = > some WGs determine that anything non-editorial is substantial (also = > discussed in 5.3.2)? Whose call would that be? Pointing to 5.3.2 seems easiest and minimizes redundancy. I went with = that in [1]. > > =3D=3D Section 4.3 =3D=3D > > Should we see if the secretariat can setup server infrastructure to = > support github-notify-ml for WGs that want it, and have a process = > whereby WGs can request support for it? This would imply changes to = > draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration rather than to this document, = > but I figured I would ask while I'm reviewing this. I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on this. However, it=E2=80=99s wort= h noting = that Mark Nottingham recently introduced a new service [3] that = effectively replaces github-notify-ml. I found it fairly easy to use. = See [4] as a recent change made for the TLS WG. If maintaining this = service is costly, perhaps it would be a good idea to see if the = secretariat can help. > =3D=3D Section 10 =3D=3D > > I'd like to suggest: > > OLD > Maintaining a mirror of a repository that is hosted on GitHub is = > relatively simple and might be considered as a way to provide a backup = > for the primary repository. > > NEW > Maintaining a mirror of a repository that is hosted on GitHub is = > relatively simple and is specified in [GH-CONFIG] to provide = > IETF-hosted backups for WG repositories. Fixed in [1]. Thanks again! Best, Chris [1] https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/41 [2] https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/39 [3] https://github.com/ietf-github-services/activity-summary [4] = https://github.com/ietf-github-services/activity-summary/commit/0b7d52d77= f507a6e26cce8c02e489e5d2afe1e48 From nobody Sat Feb 8 15:09:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA731200C4; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 15:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=HNdHoVUb; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=f70H7mO1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id udFY81DhECK9; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 15:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFCE71200C3; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 15:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F3321B55; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 08 Feb 2020 18:08:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh= qYSqpnvCWsmp94kbey6thS9m9ghyorvat4eSb5Q3YHk=; b=HNdHoVUbgOaH7gHH XZ2TcDt/KOJlvQkhV0RTCmaiSVabVEUzlxp54QKDGOOIzE+vuuy4UgglHi2djAUI zVSSR3yK8q+osj92nrqUe08m7uIp3puCUdoovYlIvJrrzH+IbfaQqPdMbxX1saKQ 4/Ypwv/fR03UqMFjNdn9PetJxm2KRhi+XUwd8buNlJjK4rFIf2aOC6BhOtPcsu0v quhZzg2Q5nWbnVCJY+qW+FywzLVCPbdxxUeR2MNdpMEopRP+u0iAibHAGbIuoR+3 twV4YdexPQQdzoxn3L3F/cnqWGZqWe4iAQCsvoUPwEfta5VycZ/Z7Nv+duazRsTZ +Ty0Dw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=qYSqpnvCWsmp94kbey6thS9m9ghyorvat4eSb5Q3Y Hk=; b=f70H7mO1SmIe+SDkH4Z3B9ZvwcD2zsdTeWpKxOaFMfkNje5cDEPxPRUBB 84+CA1qrCx7L1mx9Qj2Dpi0077DqJCYVvDdRK+xStM4DgxPEXbFRYlSyhjGSHUDn MyHmZASxQzDqeASVujhFLdJpP3oobF0f3pmKSsoZNzlFOjcxFsilBaNuGSWCEP9R FTBWPr3CZrBhwD3quiiB0dB24Y2oJEUBz7CvoRT0r4lp3Uuf3COG9Vq9Un+uYFu3 8kG1wr4ZyLvXH0eR5agtQN/i5zjz2qocloJP4w1SBWuOZ+sy1PNkCORzFMqU6r1z QsAXBdbEUwM8duVSqcolLzfohJN9A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrheekgddtvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefhvffufffokfgjfhggtgfgsehtkehmtdertdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfvehhrhhi shhtohhphhgvrhcuhghoohgufdcuoegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvghtqe enucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhivghtfhdrtghomhdprhhftgdqvggu ihhtohhrrdgtohhmpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepjeefrdelvddrieegrddufedtne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheptggrfies hhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.0.0.184] (c-73-92-64-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.92.64.130]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 12CF330600DC; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:08:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher Wood" To: "Barry Leiba" Cc: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org, git-chairs@ietf.org Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:08:53 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] AD review of draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-05 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 23:08:59 -0000 Thanks, Barry! I made a PR [1] that should address your comments. Please have a look. More specific responses are inline below. On 7 Feb 2020, at 8:30, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Blocking comment: > > — Section 2.4 — > > When a working group is closed, the team with administrative access > would be removed and the owner list would be returned to its > initial > composition. > > What “initial composition”? The Secretariat and the ADs at the > time > the organization was created? That doesn’t make sense. The > Secretariat and current ADs at the time of closing? That’s not > “initial”. Or do you have something else in mind? Good catch! I think the Secretariat and current ADs at the time of closing is the intent. I made that change in [1]. > > > The rest: > > — Abstract — > Just a note here that the second paragraph should be removed before > publication. I’ve put this in as an RFC Editor Note. > > — Section 1 — > > proposals in this document, the functional requirements would need > to > be discussed with the IETF Tools Team, and the IETF Secretariat who > would need to support various pieces of what is proposed herein. > > Nit: the comma after “Tools Team” is misplaced, and should be > after > “Secretariat” instead. > > — Section 2 — > > For example, see > and > for working > examples > of automation that is in use in some working groups. > > Two things here: > > 1. Nit: “For example … for working examples” is redundant; I > suggest > starting the sentence with “See”. > > 2. I’m not sure that these URLs will stand the test of time, > remaining > valid in an archival document. On the other hand, having them here as > examples is certainly useful. Perhaps we could archive them on an > ietf.com page, or perhaps the RFC Editor could do so on an > rfc-editor.com page? I'm happy with either of these options. Alissa, Paul: what do you think? > > In this document the question of whether processes should be manual > or automated is deliberately left ambiguous > > “Ambiguous” isn’t the right word — it carries a connotation of > confusion. I suggest “unspecified”. And there needs to be a > comma > after that word, whichever we choose. > > — Section 2.2 — > > be able to run steps 3 and 4 from Section 2.1 so that the rest of > the > activities in this section such as personnel work the same for the > organizations that were created on their own. > > I find this awkward; I think it needs commas and a minor edit: > > NEW > be able to run steps 3 and 4 from Section 2.1 so that the rest of > the > activities in this section, such as personnel changes, work the > same > way as for organizations that were created as specified herein. > END > > — Section 2.5 — > > o Creating a new repository for an individual draft that is at the > discretion of the WG chair; > > What does “an individual draft that is at the discretion of the WG > chair” mean? I assume this means an I-D that lives under the WG organization rather than an individual's account, perhaps as a way of increasing visibility, without it being an adopted WG draft. Since this is one of a list of possible examples, and one that I've not seen in practice, I removed it in [1]. (If we think it should remain, perhaps someone can elaborate on the original text?) > > — Section 4 — > > An attacker who can change the contents of Internet Drafts, > particularly late in a working group's process, can possibly cause > unnoticed changes in protocols that are eventually adopted. > > Indeed, and so should we propose any mitigations? Using a github > instance that’s maintained and secured under ietf.org? At the very > least we’ll need to rely on careful review during the publication > process, including verifying what changes were made at each step and > flagging questionable changes. The text here should probably say > something more. I don't think so, as this is true with or without the use of GitHub. Though I’m curious to hear what others think. Thanks again! Best, Chris [1] https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/pull/15 From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:08:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D0612022A for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:41:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=56kHo1G+; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ZL8bGSbC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6IQFBjaEAhEB for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29F7B120227 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7111E21857; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:41:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:41:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=1 272YilyG7exjFiEbP6U3pq45+qHPINe7kofwKWBrC0=; b=56kHo1G+i3bsF0OOD YMUGZui6ZOceGdCoXeMgHeAHamyKMBvXKgYG2iCbECw1T72QIf6KJHihTbGnJIGl KfZBNeRTwgw91vqqd9PYo2A6dlRgfkhP/mymDsuPMcPHnh3bVam+IptgZb0yBVU2 vhbkDdfHLMhrUpNT3EddFe7J3TtFHAUJAcbrphL7X20uuEALSdf62Hd1B9LpxCPn QwumQLXQVhIyyRiQn7hwZ2sg2yrhplx8kLM1l8gwzLLvFYjMr0fZYAGk7PCiJ724 8/G0tq6OQt3l7qyS5xoHRf49xbStA7oMCOrEugExbIhR3UZqtMrRkhhcF3ryNzfk djJ1Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=1272YilyG7exjFiEbP6U3pq45+qHPINe7kofwKWBr C0=; b=ZL8bGSbCGXgvbrbiSR7jJnZy2LPyt+M04QcM+Y+J+HmuCT11veXFkSyLp IckniH+fmE1YMFQ6iML5htcVFwxPUOI3sWF8R75C2sLOC+z8FFKsiGbefALcWZWf j4QYjmoGtFhR7VDdxpTVdi95X2gY5tswW5jnRb9iEC23gJ+JOuixXWyAtkx/fp1z 6UFfifAh+ChjEEcU30TSeWYQyG8sZTTx4HTn4XWsl43jHmDlCMlcnnUX4LO8YJk/ /3JRVyLHSYaJKy/8hgIZyzJMDqdJqKc/bFFT0NnUiY2f+B7dmj7ROTwcE2u+L0Ok 2unRiPdXvq9kik3zWqa6V3Q1ZRxZA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedriedugdeihecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtjeenucfhrhhomheptehlihhsshgrucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestgho ohhpvghrfidrihhnqeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecukfhppeduje efrdefkedruddujedrledtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehm rghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.90]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 29C423280063; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:41:19 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <0FC08CA4-36D9-4804-A639-DC1175FA47E2@heapingbits.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:41:17 -0500 Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <38306CCE-40ED-4874-BBBB-A3640849B179@cooperw.in> References: <1894C2A4-3788-439D-A1E2-17B819A2F75D@cooperw.in> <0FC08CA4-36D9-4804-A639-DC1175FA47E2@heapingbits.net> To: Christopher Wood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] AD review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-03 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:41:22 -0000 Thanks Chris. All the changes look good. Please post the rev and then = I=E2=80=99ll initiate last call. One comment below. > On Feb 8, 2020, at 5:38 PM, Christopher Wood = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> =3D=3D Section 4.3 =3D=3D >>=20 >> Should we see if the secretariat can setup server infrastructure to = support github-notify-ml for WGs that want it, and have a process = whereby WGs can request support for it? This would imply changes to = draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration rather than to this document, but = I figured I would ask while I'm reviewing this. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on this. However, it=E2=80=99s = worth noting that Mark Nottingham recently introduced a new service [3] = that effectively replaces github-notify-ml. I found it fairly easy to = use. See [4] as a recent change made for the TLS WG. If maintaining this = service is costly, perhaps it would be a good idea to see if the = secretariat can help. Ah, I had missed this, thanks. Let=E2=80=99s leave this out, then, since = we can always ask the secretariat to do things even if we don=E2=80=99t = say so in this RFC. Alissa >=20 >> =3D=3D Section 10 =3D=3D >>=20 >> I'd like to suggest: >>=20 >> OLD >> Maintaining a mirror of a repository that is hosted on GitHub is = relatively simple and might be considered as a way to provide a backup = for the primary repository. >>=20 >> NEW >> Maintaining a mirror of a repository that is hosted on GitHub is = relatively simple and is specified in [GH-CONFIG] to provide IETF-hosted = backups for WG repositories. >=20 > Fixed in [1]. >=20 > Thanks again! >=20 > Best, > Chris >=20 > [1] https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/41 > [2] https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/39 > [3] https://github.com/ietf-github-services/activity-summary > [4] = https://github.com/ietf-github-services/activity-summary/commit/0b7d52d77f= 507a6e26cce8c02e489e5d2afe1e48 From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:08:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42DF12022C; 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Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:43:02 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:43:00 -0500 Cc: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration@ietf.org, git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org, caw@heapingbits.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] AD review of draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-05 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:43:06 -0000 Hi Barry, Thanks. One comment below. > On Feb 7, 2020, at 11:30 AM, Barry Leiba = wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=94 Section 2.5 =E2=80=94 >=20 > o Creating a new repository for an individual draft that is at the > discretion of the WG chair; >=20 > What does =E2=80=9Can individual draft that is at the discretion of = the WG chair=E2=80=9D mean? Would it be clearer to say "Creating a new repository for an individual = draft (at the discretion of the WG chair);=E2=80=9D? Best, Alissa >=20 > =E2=80=94 Section 4 =E2=80=94 >=20 > An attacker who can change the contents of Internet Drafts, > particularly late in a working group's process, can possibly cause > unnoticed changes in protocols that are eventually adopted. >=20 > Indeed, and so should we propose any mitigations? Using a github > instance that=E2=80=99s maintained and secured under ietf.org? At the = very > least we=E2=80=99ll need to rely on careful review during the = publication > process, including verifying what changes were made at each step and > flagging questionable changes. The text here should probably say > something more. >=20 > --=20 > Barry >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:09:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C34E120274; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ir7yQuBEcmzJ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-f179.google.com (mail-il1-f179.google.com [209.85.166.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ABED12025D; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-f179.google.com with SMTP id b15so484565iln.3; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1rcsb+5Cc0fugMAHkuLJ5uS+3gqX89k+ViZNUCZYHyU=; b=nv7WxVND2LhvQPjOrkiygXzPMqD0WqWjx9YEKgmrWOovZggjr4dWch2SCwz+Dl0rIy L2GhK/+xKWy80E7jLV0WS6+WRf6ncMS0D28mT1jNdkj+farhZgrl0kFHXo3ez2ZjpEPz VjLZVAqBTT2AFk2AQIf/+cNdntuN8u7M6AxzLamIwS7zy3luCAAjNagRwMB7sn64glVm pOYMKyOJm6szWYGNCFPWBPicGa8ikPvhD08Sd5SrLZOPDhyie2zWselY9u6mg7dhbwAS /mKGMGjDRyGCCo3ChaL9xirUYUb0bQ85z+xJ5lLr+p2zwQlk55tFzn3MRKqOZvZTjx3H EvHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW1NcIqeONx1O19owEFF6iUFOIcQLePuWYwOhomCrSvPTO4Ql0l irTHu9NmX7ctMKehNVSBKct24lwOzGzdpUc5J9yWFw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyySjjf+2n9n//sFoGxlawS4d9mFRZVT5FhmjUnFRDygkUmZ6XPuSObZeMZf9jfbMYKWCyqW9rzO/ABQFHUdRI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:508:: with SMTP id q8mr1776664ile.187.1581347212334; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:06:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:06:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration@ietf.org, git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org, caw@heapingbits.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] AD review of draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-05 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:06:54 -0000 > > o Creating a new repository for an individual draft that is at the > > discretion of the WG chair; > > > > What does =E2=80=9Can individual draft that is at the discretion of the= WG chair=E2=80=9D mean? > > Would it be clearer to say "Creating a new repository for an individual d= raft (at the discretion of the WG chair);=E2=80=9D? Ah, yes... that's perfect; thanks. b From nobody Mon Feb 10 13:16:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D475212085A for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:16:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=l3s94c23; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FO0Xuwmr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7bighauEyRlQ for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07A7F120858 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF4F63B; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 16:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 16:16:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=hln6a7f5q9wPBYbr5jfSUn0epPGF EYbqaxVFrLane9o=; b=l3s94c23mjRjXfAvRNU53YvUkKVfnLVh/yHRgYzF2drB QH8uHLGVUpTHkz7E9ev5YWsBbsGw48akxhmKVGdIjvfgx0Sh0kl4es/hVPb3V8yg 0Brw9SQx0NbgJgNH30dbrC5wcWVc5hrN3BFjcbHaWTN4iKVMH6GDmfwNVh0j9Kwr y4FP9gbTkXPFl3Td+KLNaXQJz/KvfqNNDxR+TXxWUE7FEUhz0kyb2GCXAaaa+v3d EtsaGkmFqUoyJYIlFbzT3eIrJEf2giE12DmDiv+Qv4rvHzqusO7qGvv8KQAcIVs/ sq3Gear7SzoJOQBnWn1L3Gfz2ELDN6SazLMMwAgj+g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=hln6a7 f5q9wPBYbr5jfSUn0epPGFEYbqaxVFrLane9o=; b=FO0Xuwmrysv59aCoAxPs3a bYi7Im7gr7SX9DGtBVTxwKrC7hdtfkW8nVHKpCgTz7bcq/hpuLOhqrNOv3Lqpomq k9/wcqsIJgFS8kqDWXy6/6WPZ6rrHEoBQvPSJdTWEnbNCoxpw6UZS3Zhc4eLrS5S iNEAqah251xa11zs7v4scZTYUGRCsJg+FWl+mR61n1XKOLpOfAKe6wZHR4lCVKeN soJo1IgN5Y4iLbXxXjy7rLygDFajmBoFLOoxmj9HCrarV+6jp3iHy15vPoXLP2Dg CiDLwkcvMwdxKL1fzHr313uIU5/O+80R4JQ+ZkM8SnC2uhc8T+hpHFuwQt0fntVQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedriedugddufeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuff homhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgr rhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 70713E00A5; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 16:16:48 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:16:32 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Spencer Dawkins at IETF" , "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:16:53 -0000 On Fri, Feb 7, 2020, at 04:38, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 4:09 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Fair enough. However, I think it is worth making the point somewhere that there is an analogy between a subset of participants who use a repo and a subset of participants that work as a design team, so the RFC2418 provisions for design teams should apply. [...] > I think it IS fair to say "people working on an early version of a > draft in Github is the equivalent of a design team working on an early > version of a draft using private e-mail, so the usual working group > practices and cautions for design teams apply to Github as well", or > something like that. https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/42 is a somewhat minimalist take on this. There was already a point made with respect to difficult issues, but it's worth pulling up to the lead-in material. From nobody Mon Feb 10 14:20:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8288712087C for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:20:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XoPIw054Hxs8 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58CA3120878 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id p11so3382893plq.10 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:20:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8SvP5XYuIZaF8XldilkxJuso9UjqMu27+56iMNqdr28=; b=Ai6FdkGp5lViDgs4ON/C1HvvbMgOhkVXH06EGVXbiQXrwsfGBfi4zm6KCk/0WvqjsS MoBwfwAU5Zgq4uQv2f/bNGti40pjJqRVxhZYtizx6a6nijACCyn8j0Zs/bUuv6zXo6s0 7mfoaAnytRmND5xMBFo67Yglqrf6b6YLpfLKvQ0vKmDwkmmLk+r3QikSZdA0JVyU5Rjf /I+DTLEFTytsUBpzaSc8S2MINjDdjIewXfxyee0CREhw92tzIf6FoaAV2t+qE0OI2RHG ph74LT4KStgydGOxIU0XvrFMvBfmyHS18LittyJ1/9WB3RUqtJ11NFP0MnSAeHFvQQWO FGcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8SvP5XYuIZaF8XldilkxJuso9UjqMu27+56iMNqdr28=; b=ScNaN1Ldb3B0xdfvRZN+ODBHaTK5/0SySe+zGnH/0I6nBpbcWEaPTECg/1zU1tAZ1b 03ILjxmo2egXeH7umK8TmrM0AFgKpRBE43ROhH02KW3XyitLaCfoaROhxjOim4XH+SHJ DOKsciyV9Od9maYRn/HGCHsyIDOBKj1mSn/IKfCrJhSRYU0w+N5TlaR4n7WWl7jItmoW uJyZRfbAd+wf7JaCcJxB5pT5FBx1ovAUT1ASvz0n58k6p8zsPkqp0LHbuvvnysY5mIie kYS0beM6pkolpqVqztByTYulwV25j8nx9DqRwyKByOvb+3p269EZtIFk2aPEnIrle86N M5cA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWSDwhNT8KTOQNMlALJmqDT3LMVvBGK0eBDccQ06YUvZne9y2vY jQ9nyVxrnajOFecgJ241H+b8SVth X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz6ubbU45McNGoSntS0GkhBMa9fK8taRgxIfqU8cIbhoCYc0XEgeZAH1xPEEm5rUkHTazDIFg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b718:: with SMTP id d24mr105709pls.80.1581373240534; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (88.161.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.161.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q8sm1388241pfs.161.2020.02.10.14.20.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:20:39 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Thomson , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:20:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 22:20:43 -0000 On 11-Feb-20 10:16, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Feb 7, 2020, at 04:38, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 4:09 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Fair enough. However, I think it is worth making the point somewhere that there is an analogy between a subset of participants who use a repo and a subset of participants that work as a design team, so the RFC2418 provisions for design teams should apply. > [...] >> I think it IS fair to say "people working on an early version of a >> draft in Github is the equivalent of a design team working on an early >> version of a draft using private e-mail, so the usual working group >> practices and cautions for design teams apply to Github as well", or >> something like that. > > https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/42 is a somewhat minimalist take on this. There was already a point made with respect to difficult issues, but it's worth pulling up to the lead-in material. Looks good to me, thanks. Brian From nobody Wed Feb 12 00:13:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E231200B8 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0QhMi5Hg-Nn for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 023961200B1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id g12so989126ild.2 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xH6cvc+oy48yqAeXIL7r7teQzaOc8/o/kybNWOK5MQ4=; b=NAdwmS2cHXZbAM9NOr7O2Ks01MpyCfAXgTPzvpTe7MmHpMJe1tZHbxBxCk3aCIfnrh 6xh5BOPWoPKzgkP39DBvSY7eLcyoJAtD5EsgQxYHEFf+ShQ7hO47Vl5xJxs/8a6B591Z bFzJ2AX0kQIIHzrMmWcYFbNBoH1Ua505yKPFpHZZZDvt5xI26i0SdeO5za94vhM/SCh8 YxqWp5uNWHgqjE2RiN61EKomgZFgSgv8gCojkUO9ddrr7bwT43IURrvwtafFhIQ4kVPf 9Kk3OKXBgjqcOt0qzc9ase8zqcGD2/5JT8yi4eP/JsVSGwb0ClxHGdQ+mgm/mtLiEqBC LW/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xH6cvc+oy48yqAeXIL7r7teQzaOc8/o/kybNWOK5MQ4=; b=RFwaOqF3QXToLDNreoLV9BuvR8PppBPdDmjG0HiJHMU5IIvwrKUhLgOvcmGmsfI64C ag12SEmSEoSrXm88tyasjLJQEIr4r978WdlPkLSmjuGt99taXrNQ2Es4OevUYZNAcMDy +u5HqhjoEQHF7LOiu4tEUKK+D7k7VleivVB49lfYxV//1dWdHtLWinK75ViHy541nL47 08YCDZ1Hs9oynr8qkMzj+IN3alLDmtF6prSvQ0ImaByt/sGIEbFFhjMwkTV9d8QVPzfx rBDUfDKm0zVIe79iySGhRNZIPmofsL+9x1zO+6yoP57MWvwKpA7X5K7Q3oyvsBh+0o43 EETA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU5lnQmD3SPZ+QgybiGO7d7G8b9qGlp7T5ubgvJnNG20pWgHo13 gT+gvbGoeo/VpSMAlrpR0FP/0MbA7ifuW8Gn0lk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwZ4KHg7cj/0vWPMXhziNxdhVvmQ2uKxc80WsyOTy1bs2Tf+9dxxyU9yStoaeFb9wzNuv4aobC8nBnw173zUEE= X-Received: by 2002:a92:990b:: with SMTP id p11mr9975682ili.254.1581495187207; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:13:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:12:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Brian E Carpenter , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8fc1f059e5c8a03" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:13:10 -0000 --000000000000d8fc1f059e5c8a03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 1:17 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > > https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/42 is a somewhat > minimalist take on this. There was already a point made with respect to > difficult issues, but it's worth pulling up to the lead-in material. > This patch is well-meaning, but it does not meet the IESG guidelines for design teams. For example, it enables completely closed groups that throw their output over the fence into Github. The edit does say "open participation", but that's not really defined. In particular, the IESG design team recommendations require named members, and periodic reports. thanks, Rob --000000000000d8fc1f059e5c8a03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 1:17 PM Martin Th= omson <mt@lowentropy.net> wr= ote:

https://github.com/ietf-gitwg/using-github/pull/42= is a somewhat minimalist take on this.=C2=A0 There was already a point= made with respect to difficult issues, but it's worth pulling up to th= e lead-in material.

This patch is well-= meaning, but it does not meet the IESG guidelines for design teams. For exa= mple, it enables completely closed groups that throw their output over the = fence into Github. The edit does say "open participation", but th= at's not really defined. In particular, the IESG design team recommenda= tions require named members, and periodic reports.

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0
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X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxQgdcx5GxwIK1kEMcYYvckyaHCIbjUONgeTy6zv6w1KZZLyKwSHQqLodrXEz2iACMkCAOL3vaVfIzHZzqWW44= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6103:: with SMTP id v3mr19107810iob.49.1581529953850; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:52:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> In-Reply-To: <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:52:19 -0800 Message-ID: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019dcc1059e64a35b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:52:37 -0000 --00000000000019dcc1059e64a35b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 8:57 AM STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > > - This patch is well-meaning, but it does not meet the IESG guidelines > for design teams. For example, it enables completely closed groups tha= t > throw their output over the fence into Github. The edit does say "open > participation", but that's not really defined. In particular, the IESG > design team recommendations require named members, and periodic report= s. > > > > Perhaps adding =E2=80=9C(such as making the repo public)=E2=80=9D fixes t= hat. > > > Since it costs money to make a GitHub repo private, and there is no > suggestion that IETF spend money on official WG GitHub repos, I=E2=80=99m= curious > how such an addition to the text would make any difference. > If people want to set up a private and paid-for repo to stage changes > before putting them in an IETF repo, I think it will be hard to stop them > and I=E2=80=99m not convinced they would be doing something wrong. > Or am I an anomaly and misbehaving when I communicate with fellow draft > authors off-list using direct email? Is *all* communication between draft > authors and design team members required to be public? This is news to me= . > Of course that kind of stuff happens, and it's ok. But if it's long-term and coordinated, it should be transparent. This means the participants should be known, which is where this edit seems a bit off imho. In this sense, a design team is more tightly defined than a mailing list or a github repo, even if less open. thanks, Rob --00000000000019dcc1059e64a35b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 8:57 AM STARK= , BARBARA H <bs7652@= att.com> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF =20
  • This patch is well-meaning, but it does not m= eet the IESG guidelines for design teams. For example, it enables completel= y closed groups that throw their output over the fence into Github. The edit does say "open participation", but that's n= ot really defined. In particular, the IESG design team recommendations requ= ire named members, and periodic reports.

=C2=A0

Perhaps adding =E2=80=9C(such as making the repo pub= lic)=E2=80=9D fixes that.


Since it costs money to make a GitHub repo private, and there is no su= ggestion that IETF spend money on official WG GitHub repos, I=E2=80=99m cur= ious how such an addition to the text would make any difference.=C2=A0
If people want to set up a private and paid-for repo to stage changes = before putting them in an IETF repo, I think it will be hard to stop them a= nd I=E2=80=99m not convinced they would be doing something wrong.=C2=A0
Or am I an anomaly and misbehaving when I communicate with fellow draf= t authors off-list using direct email? Is *all* communication between draft= authors and design team members required to be public? This is news to me.= =C2=A0

Of course that kind of s= tuff happens, and it's ok. But if it's long-term and coordinated, i= t should be transparent. This means the participants should be known, which= is where this edit seems a bit off imho. In this sense, a design team is m= ore tightly defined than a mailing list or a github repo, even if less open= .

thanks,
Rob

=
--00000000000019dcc1059e64a35b-- From nobody Wed Feb 12 13:14:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13BD120951 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 13:14:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=eKIf93u9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ZFka5Go1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u0mEQxLfHynK for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 13:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C4ED120116 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 13:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F08DCE; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:14:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=cC M1R02tnbl3qlfRD+Ff5ry+brCqXfZOfHuUvq0twjk=; b=eKIf93u9JtPeSBqXCr 56bRmevcqqPVApOi8GK2RZ2Ec7vHbTWF9Oz++UVKgZF7w6YbgPLtSPVuSvKGZV2J +Wkm1xGzAx2DpeTqHJJcUtRZ0rxfdzi2bmwLuQynwnriXNekvPeoCJ2ZJkal86pe kEv71IouPaPSXMdegn6XkaEnkRM0nQrX8IPkbeUBr4b9MgOJ+ofseSMWIXdQE/53 Xko34CB4U1nhZA3QogmEV27DJKeccKD/1txJEUYRwmx/5tPU/5Qvcytr6Ibp6Ti2 Vx1e2iclnV9I6RK+1Hd9JdtynSq9vaEasktzjKIuv+YHUYcc+Grag+IOqCXyjGns NQ+A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=cCM1R02tnbl3qlfRD+Ff5ry+brCqXfZOfHuUvq0tw jk=; b=ZFka5Go1UwfEzcbqALm0hjVE6REJU7osh5p3KllzWGnk6T7D3bdZ/BJ2S ZbiBmxVC+d8B7kLo8nU7gEBlLwqQAh4nQPgWECBuT+RQD9Of3nE+rLa+43GBaTdf tKh2xWI0XL2AKpNaTzDrG9UpteFBjUdrFcr/nGu2KvB3MKtycUeWvf+23E4LaCcx r9uT0yaYdTMEK/XgSnm5jsAvAf9cOzcXeABEWaAtrkXVkJyohGT7UjXj0Ax7Anlc tFLCZsYV3KHe4bIUtrB7axn25hEjk3RO/hlf/nyLfkrT2KrtyxqfJGMkQOkxWBOs evpqfsirbsr/SDdA+20y3CxgN0cKA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrieeigdduudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesthhqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id D10D3E00A2; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:14:40 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:14:20 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , "Salz, Rich" Cc: "Rob Sayre" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , "Spencer Dawkins at IETF" Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 21:14:46 -0000 On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 03:57, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > =20 > > * This patch is well-meaning, but it does not meet the IESG guideli= nes for design teams. For example, it enables completely closed groups t= hat throw their output over the fence into Github. The edit does say "op= en participation", but that's not really defined. In particular, the IES= G design team recommendations require named members, and periodic report= s. >=20 > > Perhaps adding =E2=80=9C(such as making the repo public)=E2=80=9D fi= xes that. >=20 >=20 > Since it costs money to make a GitHub repo private [...] GitHub recently made private repositories available to all users, albeit= with restrictions that might make them awkward to use for design teams.= And a good number of people I work with pay GitHub for a "pro" account= , so finding a sponsor likely wouldn't be that difficult. So finding a = private repositories might not be that hard. So I'm inclined to take Rich's suggestion here, if only because it clari= fies intent better. I've updated the PR. > If people want to set up a private and paid-for repo to stage changes=20= > before putting them in an IETF repo, I think it will be hard to stop=20= > them and I=E2=80=99m not convinced they would be doing something wrong= .=20 > Or am I an anomaly and misbehaving when I communicate with fellow draf= t=20 > authors off-list using direct email? Is *all* communication between=20= > draft authors and design team members required to be public? This is=20= > news to me.=20 This is fine. But the purpose of the document is to address Working Gro= up procedures. We can't stop private communication and nor should we, b= ut under the auspices of "official business", it is good to keep formal = deliberations public. This wouldn't stop a Working Group from forming a design team that uses = a private repository. But then it wouldn't be following the guidance in= this document. That too is fine by existing rules, even if I would per= sonally prefer to retain the accountability conferred by keeping discuss= ion public. > I have to say I=E2=80=99m very much opposed to over-specifying and=20 > over-constraining how WGs use GitHub in order to prevent hypothetical=20= > problems.=20 I don't see this as specifying anything, just explaining the perspective= the draft adopts and how that fits into the existing formalisms. From nobody Thu Feb 13 03:07:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E541200F5 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 03:06:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5HQ16K6NUe2O for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 03:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd41.google.com (mail-io1-xd41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 818711200C7 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 03:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd41.google.com with SMTP id d15so6005805iog.3 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 03:06:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sk4y6EBk6SciTzlZt/d0t8Bmp77fO/oITP5w5QrmTf0=; b=WDBcr8PJPSMWrfaexmzOZys87T5t5z/3NsO+1fQQpYaGIuj9emfjKy4E23ZOXNq0OU vsEyf9/oOzkhTyGYm3oGCGtdumBXKnx34yyPjfd9rHU3eLxEfVXuuE5QrLsOhM8IFMsI TPxnDFagYLQkYlVGkyymReSs0Alhc3wubuosjFpBRKYNQGwz1Mil6MPU18scQ8aIAmOA Kij+o6eMmYgB7rKDLu7DTyis7A/55oYndY7VPaeDVvA2dHcehM49Hlb1jDGDKhczUF98 Oe2QKYauEM5QrnHyXvBzSAKeLorEopxldUgm9sn/JcE24RGluknJCujhBMECBCzo0r0L S78A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sk4y6EBk6SciTzlZt/d0t8Bmp77fO/oITP5w5QrmTf0=; b=FXoVRzr9BXcG+m8IRJ84DHyzeDhX8btHISuqnAAElxfMx3KJtqHOAcJfLe87QMHApV VCpPlYackA8hKzEGOBTDO3AeHvcBiRRQu5ecjcxAv9rmp7/IV7pkGzEgy/s64uLHnhEr 7n5RyOpI21aLFXRAxP40hC/rB479mmuRwfUfopucrK4Gaj/hyplAPq2U2e+XRFuEcD6c upuyLW0mjE4WJDMz/P3F6drS0rr4Uz3Q0EENi686LQH6YIetpsvPWadY4W8EyekR4VGJ y2vNjNBuDD5Fum9LdGG6oCOHbJLRD5U/FMyd1lG/GK4NVaBQ/O/nPAd+JgKqLWmk0Xoc gMeA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWa96PeEQwEY5ESQiCg4TRVxptKLiGmHWC2F8mZQcP+MVtTh13I JDGK9wO4P6xwcopJj72TfZrXYtVwb9cTQAUd+6E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzbT6S/S9nK4X8nZ4bNRjiwX5UdGljOcU1iGBWznOWyG1l8ibqzI3OVWO8aiGnvkxYs0aDrPGq4gAs8aAbq+i4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:bb45:: with SMTP id l66mr21987560iof.73.1581592015861; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 03:06:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 03:06:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , "Salz, Rich" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048fcd7059e731614" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:06:58 -0000 --00000000000048fcd7059e731614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1:14 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > > So I'm inclined to take Rich's suggestion here, if only because it > clarifies intent better. I've updated the PR. > Well, I think I've spied a problem here. I have nothing against open Github repos, but they are not equivalent to design teams. thanks, Rob --00000000000048fcd7059e731614 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1:14 PM Martin Th= omson <mt@lowentropy.net> wr= ote:

So I'm inclined to take Rich's suggestion here, if only because it = clarifies intent better.=C2=A0 I've updated the PR.

Well, I think I've spied a problem here. I have nothin= g against open Github repos, but they are not equivalent to design teams.

thanks,
Rob

--00000000000048fcd7059e731614-- From nobody Thu Feb 13 06:33:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCBF120120 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o8qonbC6C8_k for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD4F912011F for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:33:16 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2y1s72fnem-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:33:16 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:33:14 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:33:14 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Rob Sayre , Martin Thomson CC: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" , "STARK, BARBARA H" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts Thread-Index: AQHV2Uc56V4TzOgwFE+xHVK0ygF1RKgHkgkAgAAhjYCAAF9MAIAAjNyAgADGSACAAPhrgIAEa0CAgAaGTgCAAkm3AIAAKFCAgABqMgCAAEfTAIAA6I0A///l5QA= Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:33:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.115.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:35:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:35:10 -0600 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: Martin Thomson , "STARK, BARBARA H" , "Salz, Rich" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a601fb059e7bde3b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:35:45 -0000 --000000000000a601fb059e7bde3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Rob, On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 5:06 AM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1:14 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > >> >> So I'm inclined to take Rich's suggestion here, if only because it >> clarifies intent better. I've updated the PR. >> > > Well, I think I've spied a problem here. I have nothing against open > Github repos, but they are not equivalent to design teams. > I agree. I think the point is, from the point of view of an IETF working group, a design team, and a bunch of people working in a Github repo (who could, of course, ALSO be a design team), are treated pretty much the same when they contribute their output to the working group (via e-mail, of course). The output might be great, middle of the road, or horrible, but neither's output is privileged among other people contributing to the working group - it's fair game for the working group, with no assumption that the working group is bound by decisions that were made in Github, or in the design team. At least, I think that's the point we're trying to make here. Best, Spencer > thanks, > Rob > > --000000000000a601fb059e7bde3b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Rob,

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 5:06 AM R= ob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> w= rote:



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I think the point is, from the point of view of an IETF > working group, a design team, and a bunch of people working in a Github > repo (who could, of course, ALSO be a design team), are treated pretty > much the same when they contribute their output to the working group > (via e-mail, of course). The output might be great, middle of the road, > or horrible, but neither's output is privileged among other people > contributing to the working group - it's fair game for the working > group, with no assumption that the working group is bound by decisions > that were made in Github, or in the design team. Thanks Spencer, I've added that as a note, copying from 2418: +A choice to use GitHub is regarded as equivalent to the formation of a design +team (see Section 6.5 of {{!RFC2418}}) provided that the work uses a public +repository. That is, the output of any activity using GitHub needs to be taken +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection or +modification by the Working Group as with any other input. 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:47:07 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2y5bd70mqf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:47:06 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:47:05 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:47:05 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Martin Thomson , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Rob Sayre CC: "STARK, BARBARA H" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts Thread-Index: AQHV2Uc56V4TzOgwFE+xHVK0ygF1RKgHkgkAgAAhjYCAAF9MAIAAjNyAgADGSACAAPhrgIAEa0CAgAaGTgCAAkm3AIAAKFCAgABqMgCAAEfTAIAA6I0AgACvmgCAAALSAP//rK8A Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:47:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.115.35] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:50:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:50:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Martin Thomson , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "STARK, BARBARA H" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fa46ed059e7c1226" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:50:18 -0000 --000000000000fa46ed059e7c1226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +A choice to use GitHub is [similar] to the formation of a design... Would prefer this small edit ^^, but I think the text is fine, and I don't object to it as is. thanks, Rob On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:47 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection > or > +modification by the Working Group as with any other input. > > Oxford comma after rejection. Otherwise LGTM. > > > --000000000000fa46ed059e7c1226 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+A choice to use GitHub is [similar] to the formation of a= design...

Would prefer this small edit ^^, but I th= ink the text is fine, and I don't object to it as is.

thanks,
Rob


On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1= :47 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, r= ejection or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 +modification by the Working Group as with any other input.
Oxford comma after rejection.=C2=A0 Otherwise LGTM.


--000000000000fa46ed059e7c1226-- From nobody Thu Feb 13 14:03:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B0C12026E for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:03:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=SnL+AB4H; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ENyY+nA8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4ZPN2__DU8K for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5791A1201B7 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8098021AD0 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 17:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 17:03:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=xbYEz/uAXDyENTzOUTJlGb41kJltSj5 yOo0b4MAKLqk=; b=SnL+AB4HKETI4FXnQkWNTZ/8CcJ2D3OBqY2rrODDFBotlUI 3B83/XIC9bIU+kT05ns9iJpWGGdFNP3v4FJRAzf19UvDjtPUUUzrId9mCHoXrHZ3 W1G9sGKbbTh36Q/XMLwiiq4vkKYpmEup+OevOwyC30ACRACHuF9QTsm7LOQw0AVF kFogylrsp1+Iv2XjHmnLphWGTym8egjia7VEASXycbwQiWhNlIc0KJpDBh8gK09f MLk7cizJ4tEyXth5bEF0yVlI7OVhlNcap8/OeGNhVUUm4IEg1Xi4XJKQNA6ol3on v9bmTzSMKKlWOYtxPuCXb2OL6Ly6RDTF0rxQzqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=xbYEz/ uAXDyENTzOUTJlGb41kJltSj5yOo0b4MAKLqk=; b=ENyY+nA8dxy5aExriox6oS NONjiTto65m7HXBEz81JPCZSbyxkxwm/0TOKdUXbBM2qJj8U+FNQKE9E17kpcnS2 +GKDtUoNg06tkErmv+fd3hs9LmY4CopXRTY1AkqmCqjuLOlJYgkkymNtnGIqZIyx 3egNDQbjJsvkMsZUwBMpmTplXwlEMRFtd97I9CUopaTl3/dPwql73wcYKTi+6Ppx GtBbBc2tYgxOtaQGGmPe76rywwhEt1MuDzYE0c0Hhk1g2+iSgpN7sICIGBMAXDu9 OCiMydfVvF750YOniM7hmnkgMPpsMI6YS/IQNUYy/804iLO7UANkp/eC+O31gGaw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrieekgdduheekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmh epmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id F0FA4E00A2; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 17:03:07 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <25f9fdae-0bdb-416c-ad61-3824e3af8e06@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 09:02:50 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 22:03:11 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, at 08:45, Martin Thomson wrote: > +A choice to use GitHub is similar to the formation of a design > +team (see Section 6.5 of {{!RFC2418}}) provided that the work uses a public > +repository. That is, the output of any activity using GitHub needs to be taken > +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection, or > +modification by the Working Group as with any other input. Updated as per Rich and Rob. Thanks for the prompt review. From nobody Thu Feb 13 18:13:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882CD120046; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:13:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <158164640448.20519.873433401737698006@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:13:24 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 02:13:24 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG of the IETF. Title : Working Group GitHub Administration Authors : Alissa Cooper Paul Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2020-02-13 Abstract: The use of GitHub in IETF working group processes is increasing. This document describes possible uses and conventions for working groups which are considering starting to use GitHub. It does not mandate any processes, and does not require changes to the processes used by current and future working groups not using GitHub. Discussion of this document takes place on the ietf-and-github mailing list (ietf-and-github@ietf.org), which is archived at . The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Feb 14 05:32:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5ED120829 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:32:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9PUlVU0ecfR0 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B35120089 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id b15so6774730lfc.4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:32:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NjdYDQHHSOBlBB996qT1Wi6LtBht2FP4TsWfZqiJQ2k=; b=t1h5IkyLgiLHV3ulNK90eQf/SjedwYlgbmoFRM9LzoG0a4l0sWhjI6f+Q97zaaJhAH TutRycTuvwdS4T79An3knUtvJAr7/oGKKVHOCi5aihHHaZshjb5Ktn3mJvZREeKRt+hh CP320kmre5B5jl58Tb7aWXPY/TSpI8vz1v2RDegrbq7ccqgszYQC9Plg9CIwaJPQaCWO amjos1TiCs7IK+xii5eKQMOkfwbYXWSrZ2tZ75F9aOdRVQd6CLKIIOZNZDpv/X9TlN6W jAQ4fh+/jnAKopJsy66ui9LynztjPSuXQjW+mB3B7BqX1EzailKm54n2ddgEn1/oGAWe a0fA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NjdYDQHHSOBlBB996qT1Wi6LtBht2FP4TsWfZqiJQ2k=; b=RAchQPOs1nRPx9mD+Uqua6tSY9jPIOynWq+W0XJxTPIMWagCa0YulNB5VIF9VHuN2o JZNvz6tLb5Nr55E39uaK2z7Lqxx6ubft7eEZApktJAmcqJsFN5I6OGVGdXhloGojFTvf zrAWlI3Mmre2dy/k3lwO/aFv1B17lNg0ZhF0K7GHaKa8xy/d2i+RLr13SfH/Roxz+r8U Qon1EnHl3G9gZ4UPfv4ziibN2UvEPbtE1qEnzlsNqP7uy338Qv4k+m+VM9YvbhB0FkwD WHZLKCHa2pwt2MCfrDHfDWnXgMGD8qoIEJdD5UBg4OV5vOzIdD/d64n6cbud25MGpvwk wicw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXWh5/8F+x3BI33X0HGBt7z9fdly4WAYxFDQSt/jjvOqMEJCUu+ 59P12pX9JrVO1IkSU1EABV/5eDOIRQiaOZ1ecN5hhEAv X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz/Ea6dtz2ai7amMh1FpVVHLJUJEhk500xMHPcm2GBWOdedR0dRk4GErR8Jgq2gcM2mLUSCkxyKd3zEBDR8W0M= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6b11:: with SMTP id d17mr1688062lfa.168.1581687148578; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:32:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> <25f9fdae-0bdb-416c-ad61-3824e3af8e06@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <25f9fdae-0bdb-416c-ad61-3824e3af8e06@www.fastmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:31:51 -0800 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a31eaa059e893cbe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:32:34 -0000 --000000000000a31eaa059e893cbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I can understand the motivation for this, but I think it just confuses things as-is. In general, we've long had a tradition that editors have a lot of discretion in how they prepare documents, with the assumption being that if they make changes without WG consensus, then those changes need to be taken to the WG. And of course the editor could have private conversations about the document, or even public ones outside the WG. So in some respects GH is like that. In any case, I think the Design Team analogy is confusing. I would simply say: Work done in GitHub -- even when there is extensive discussion -- has no special status. That is, the output of any activity using GitHub needs to be taken into the Working Group and subject to approval, rejection or modification by the Working Group as with any other input. Note that I have removed the "mailing list" text as well, because 2418 is actually somewhat vague on exactly how work done offline in drafts is to be brought to the WG. The key point is that this is like any such input. -Ekr On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 2:03 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, at 08:45, Martin Thomson wrote: > > +A choice to use GitHub is similar to the formation of a design > > +team (see Section 6.5 of {{!RFC2418}}) provided that the work uses a > public > > +repository. That is, the output of any activity using GitHub needs to > be taken > > +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection, or > > +modification by the Working Group as with any other input. > > Updated as per Rich and Rob. Thanks for the prompt review. > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000a31eaa059e893cbe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can understand the motivation for this, but I think= it just confuses things as-is.

In general, we'= ;ve long had a tradition that editors have a lot of discretion in how they = prepare documents, with the assumption being that if they make changes with= out WG consensus, then those changes need to be taken to the WG. And of cou= rse the editor could have private conversations about the document, or even= public ones outside the WG. So in some respects GH is like that. In any ca= se, I think the Design Team analogy is confusing. I would simply say:
<= /div>

Work done in GitHub -- even when there is extensiv= e discussion -- has no special status. That is, the output of any activity = using GitHub needs to be taken into the Working Group
and s= ubject to approval, rejection or modification by the Working Group as with = any other input.

Note that I have removed the &quo= t;mailing list" text as well, because 2418 is actually somewhat vague = on exactly how work done offline in drafts is to be brought to the WG. The = key point is that this is like any such input.

-Ek= r


On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 2:03 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net&= gt; wrote:
On Fr= i, Feb 14, 2020, at 08:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
> +A choice to use GitHub is similar to the formation of a design
> +team (see Section 6.5 of {{!RFC2418}}) provided that the work uses a = public
> +repository.=C2=A0 That is, the output of any activity using GitHub ne= eds to be taken
> +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection,= or
> +modification by the Working Group as with any other input.

Updated as per Rich and Rob.=C2=A0 Thanks for the prompt review.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
--000000000000a31eaa059e893cbe-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 05:36:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EBD12087D for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:36:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h6RfqeVW_yL4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F298120866 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 01EDTUku008755; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:36:24 -0500 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2y59gtx2e3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:36:24 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 01EDaMBU023641; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:36:23 -0500 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [135.47.91.179]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 01EDaIxl023458 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:36:18 -0500 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id AE8B54009E6C; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:36:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.152]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 992B04009E66; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:36:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.85]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:36:18 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "'Eric Rescorla'" , "'Martin Thomson'" CC: "'ietf-and-github@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts Thread-Index: AQHV2UcaMfmeyGImVEyYSI4BlSiVIqgHkgkAgAAhjYCAALMfgIAAOQmAgADGSQCAAPhqgIAEa0CAgAaGTgCAAkm4AIAAfCGA///CjyiAAJukAIAA6I0AgACvmgCAAALSAIAABOkAgAEDkID//6z2cA== Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:36:17 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6115377B924@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> 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ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627381200B4; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:05:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: CC: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org, draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration@ietf.org, Christopher Wood , caw@heapingbits.net, barryleiba@gmail.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <158169272336.16169.4878680099399918174.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:05:23 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Last Call: (Working Group GitHub Administration) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:05:24 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG (git) to consider the following document: - 'Working Group GitHub Administration' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-02-28. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract The use of GitHub in IETF working group processes is increasing. This document describes possible uses and conventions for working groups which are considering starting to use GitHub. It does not mandate any processes, and does not require changes to the processes used by current and future working groups not using GitHub. Discussion of this document takes place on the ietf-and-github mailing list (ietf-and-github@ietf.org), which is archived at . The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Fri Feb 14 15:02:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2701201DC for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tJdElzRdckU3 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd43.google.com (mail-io1-xd43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52C17120013 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd43.google.com with SMTP id z1so11737016iom.9 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bmaCMbOV69l0A7hB4bLNEht5ZPpaZKmS46a5Z35mw/s=; b=jacehIPIYFveoUdZ59noHVoZ+XU92cu1/kl9XSPc/MOTlJHPhCNepHcim27mStKdXs ngMnFQyistqGydhJvdOL51zUh+sO7xxtjMHDHZEegT4T/WwrpvI23Vxbf+bx1d54x9bF RdyW7pOmEy85frK2fWajZPG4XfD/j/BJ5bb85LEwJzFB4PZLm/5cwB5WyquATB0LvN68 jcu8kgjO1xU6lpfRqMDILOju8PfNmsG/oDJsOvhsvsEmEZ7s6bwRkI7MoJghIK7wcW3o AblJjAYU7/ZHRy4inGPYcOJiEFvIAaeITC0VT659QYHMD4VtYg9EfdAhxGj+OXm9uCGp jZwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bmaCMbOV69l0A7hB4bLNEht5ZPpaZKmS46a5Z35mw/s=; b=kVBrI4VjjZzQp87BAomFBwt4n8ThBIh8L0osVNP1aAr3cc+g4Oh1zEtvS3Xgv/lxJ7 a+3ceJ+eoFVIRB5r8GRNahRCPVnowgp137QKCZ/e6LSnEAT1oolIpGJmd4qB4dXUN6uL SPrzVVVe8wg4dG0SyXF9Ih3P7BDWY9zz5CXUu1Gx9ca+YEXFjq2M24+SxeGeU1EQ3OT+ n8mGgaPW+yu+N3vbR4Ovl8kTfRR+zvAt6zoUQTY3QURkHzfviUqqHaR7MuQJLg4UfVjL BxyI5rfFv9sl/sbV+qxYx9gGBeLlTw9k06tbre5uNit3j/Bl+cf1EdiXdGWv57RVCJXq 81dA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXsPfqHxBsOomAi5Pyx/tGckt35UGrCa+jXVY5xm/TXcHGPSo73 qQ532iFLaL0ZEWqEVHFHgP2Gq64T40c6i9bwMZtjI4AOM0W7wg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz+14urFYL3GRhCwCtwnH2OukOgU7xI9PD1S1uiatpfuoAKFYnyh34c8l+Jy2lnvFqMm37fCKTjp0RfJ62UZB0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:ec08:: with SMTP id c8mr4193357ioh.257.1581721351319; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> <25f9fdae-0bdb-416c-ad61-3824e3af8e06@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Martin Thomson , ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000477421059e913350" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:02:39 -0000 --000000000000477421059e913350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 5:32 AM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I can understand the motivation for this, but I think it just confuses > things as-is. > > In general, we've long had a tradition that editors have a lot of > discretion in how they prepare documents, > For most documents, it probably doesn't matter. There's a spectrum from: Editors discuss among themselves and others, then submit drafts. Design Team with closed membership Design Team with some open aspects, etc. Mailing List / Github with active design discussion in public When a WG document has several implementations, and has been long-running, it seems that the WG should make this call. Otherwise, implementations both public and private can fall behind or diverge if the editors aren't transparent about their progress (or lack thereof). This is particularly true if an early draft is widely deployed (there might be implementations the editors are not aware of). For example, I'd expect HTTP WG edits to be pretty open and regular for the core documents, given the number of implementations. Note also the IESG statement on this: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/design-teams/ I prefer the text we have, but the edit below is also true. thanks, Rob > > Work done in GitHub -- even when there is extensive discussion -- has no > special status. That is, the output of any activity using GitHub needs to > be taken into the Working Group > and subject to approval, rejection or modification by the Working Group as > with any other input. > > Note that I have removed the "mailing list" text as well, because 2418 is > actually somewhat vague on exactly how work done offline in drafts is to be > brought to the WG. The key point is that this is like any such input. > > -Ekr > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 2:03 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, at 08:45, Martin Thomson wrote: >> > +A choice to use GitHub is similar to the formation of a design >> > +team (see Section 6.5 of {{!RFC2418}}) provided that the work uses a >> public >> > +repository. That is, the output of any activity using GitHub needs to >> be taken >> > +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection, >> or >> > +modification by the Working Group as with any other input. >> >> Updated as per Rich and Rob. Thanks for the prompt review. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ietf-and-github mailing list >> Ietf-and-github@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github >> > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --000000000000477421059e913350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 5:32 AM Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
<= div>I can understand the motivation for this, but I think it just confuses = things as-is.

In general, we've long had a tra= dition that editors have a lot of discretion in how they prepare documents,=

For most documents, it probabl= y doesn't matter. There's a spectrum from:

Editors discuss among themselves and others, then submit drafts.
Design Team with closed membership
Design Team with some open as= pects, etc.
Mailing List / Github with active design discussion i= n public

When a WG document has several implementa= tions, and has been long-running, it seems that the WG should make this cal= l. Otherwise, implementations both public and private can fall behind or di= verge if the editors aren't transparent about their progress (or lack t= hereof). This is particularly true if an early draft is widely deployed (th= ere might be implementations the editors are not aware of).

<= /div>
For example, I'd expect HTTP WG edits to be pretty open and r= egular for the core documents, given the number of implementations.

Note also the IESG statement on this:

I prefer the text we have, but the edit below is also true.=

thanks,
Rob

= =C2=A0

Work done in GitHub -- even when there i= s extensive discussion -- has no special status. That is, the output of any= activity using GitHub needs to be taken into the Working Group
<= div> and subject to approval, rejection or modification by the Working Grou= p as with any other input.

Note that I have remove= d the "mailing list" text as well, because 2418 is actually somew= hat vague on exactly how work done offline in drafts is to be brought to th= e WG. The key point is that this is like any such input.

-Ekr


On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 2:03 PM Martin Thom= son <mt@lowentrop= y.net> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, at 08:45, Martin Thomson wrote:
> +A choice to use GitHub is similar to the formation of a design
> +team (see Section 6.5 of {{!RFC2418}}) provided that the work uses a = public
> +repository.=C2=A0 That is, the output of any activity using GitHub ne= eds to be taken
> +to the Working Group mailing list and subject to approval, rejection,= or
> +modification by the Working Group as with any other input.

Updated as per Rich and Rob.=C2=A0 Thanks for the prompt review.

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
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I will take this edit unless there are strong reasons not to. That is, we concentrate on the end result (the WG considers input) and not whether this is a design team or editors exercising discretion. PR updated. On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, at 00:31, Eric Rescorla wrote: > In general, we've long had a tradition that editors have a lot of > discretion in how they prepare documents, with the assumption being > that if they make changes without WG consensus, then those changes need > to be taken to the WG. And of course the editor could have private > conversations about the document, or even public ones outside the WG. > So in some respects GH is like that. In any case, I think the Design > Team analogy is confusing. 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Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:25:28 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 01FFJI2E024155; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:25:27 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2y6cuy06sm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:25:26 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:25:26 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:25:26 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Martin Thomson , 'Eric Rescorla' CC: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts Thread-Index: AQHV2Uc56V4TzOgwFE+xHVK0ygF1RKgHkgkAgAAhjYCAAF9MAIAAjNyAgADGSACAAPhrgIAEa0CAgAaGTgCAAkm3AIAAKFCAgABqMgCAAEfTAIAA6I0AgACvmgCAAALSAIAABOkAgAEDkICAAU9iAIAADtyA Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:25:25 +0000 Message-ID: <78C2C5EC-C075-43F5-92F4-D5F6B457FF77@akamai.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> <25f9fdae-0bdb-416c-ad61-3824e3af8e06@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.113.85] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3FDE65C579314A4BAD80720D347BA0B4@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-02-15_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002050000 definitions=main-2002150134 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-02-15_04:2020-02-14, 2020-02-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2002150134 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:25:30 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZS4NCg0KR2l0SHViIGlzIGEgcmVwbzsgYSBkZXNpZ24gdGVhbSBpcyBwZW9wbGUuICBJ J20gZmluZSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgdGV4dC4NCg0K77u/T24gMi8xNS8yMCwgNDozMiBBTSwgIk1hcnRp biBUaG9tc29uIiA8bXRAbG93ZW50cm9weS5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgVGhpcyBzZWVtcyBs aWtlIGEgZ29vZCB3YXkgdG8gc2F5IHdoYXQgSSBpbnRlbmRlZC4gIEkgd2lsbCB0YWtlIHRoaXMg ZWRpdCB1bmxlc3MgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHN0cm9uZyByZWFzb25zIG5vdCB0by4gIFRoYXQgaXMsIHdl IGNvbmNlbnRyYXRlIG9uIHRoZSBlbmQgcmVzdWx0ICh0aGUgV0cgY29uc2lkZXJzIGlucHV0KSBh bmQgbm90IHdoZXRoZXIgdGhpcyBpcyBhIGRlc2lnbiB0ZWFtIG9yIGVkaXRvcnMgZXhlcmNpc2lu ZyBkaXNjcmV0aW9uLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIFBSIHVwZGF0ZWQuDQogICAgDQogICAgT24gU2F0LCBG ZWIgMTUsIDIwMjAsIGF0IDAwOjMxLCBFcmljIFJlc2NvcmxhIHdyb3RlOg0KICAgID4gSW4gZ2Vu ZXJhbCwgd2UndmUgbG9uZyBoYWQgYSB0cmFkaXRpb24gdGhhdCBlZGl0b3JzIGhhdmUgYSBsb3Qg b2YgDQogICAgPiBkaXNjcmV0aW9uIGluIGhvdyB0aGV5IHByZXBhcmUgZG9jdW1lbnRzLCB3aXRo IHRoZSBhc3N1bXB0aW9uIGJlaW5nIA0KICAgID4gdGhhdCBpZiB0aGV5IG1ha2UgY2hhbmdlcyB3 aXRob3V0IFdHIGNvbnNlbnN1cywgdGhlbiB0aG9zZSBjaGFuZ2VzIG5lZWQgDQogICAgPiB0byBi ZSB0YWtlbiB0byB0aGUgV0cuIEFuZCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgdGhlIGVkaXRvciBjb3VsZCBoYXZlIHBy aXZhdGUgDQogICAgPiBjb252ZXJzYXRpb25zIGFib3V0IHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCwgb3IgZXZlbiBw dWJsaWMgb25lcyBvdXRzaWRlIHRoZSBXRy4gDQogICAgPiBTbyBpbiBzb21lIHJlc3BlY3RzIEdI IGlzIGxpa2UgdGhhdC4gSW4gYW55IGNhc2UsIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIERlc2lnbiANCiAgICA+IFRl YW0gYW5hbG9neSBpcyBjb25mdXNpbmcuDQogICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCiAgICBJZXRmLWFuZC1naXRodWIgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQogICAgSWV0Zi1hbmQtZ2l0aHViQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWFuZC1naXRodWINCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:19:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7DA12002E; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:05:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Message-ID: <158188712982.5801.1989988682834044527@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:05:29 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] I-D Action: draft-ietf-git-using-github-04.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:05:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG of the IETF. Title : Working Group GitHub Usage Guidance Authors : Martin Thomson Barbara Stark Filename : draft-ietf-git-using-github-04.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2020-02-16 Abstract: This document describes best practices for Working Groups that use GitHub for their work. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-using-github/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:38:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE00120044 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:44:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=qgEdOCQW; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=RsUZLnjD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NlTviTWK0oKC for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B9512001E for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31E621FC3 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:44:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=+bQ3I etgQoYEMlEcAfC2TiWZuGqQE1VYHdrJepaSz2o=; b=qgEdOCQWoLhZgOz+a+h5N fd6iaU17iiosz3I7mob0U0Giu6PNFRXcz8zrEElHWO6BiiT7wZg0gRIx21kzy9+n NsrijCPh54Z/EPPfAUyQ9yubS2GCWDLMhAwSBCQqkqdG7D/wry6o0eNRxOPuCtOv niKxmFTJliIZ8lPOmyj9rlBVVZ4vupyLWil4P6xVsT708ysW0tlmXe9VcapzZccN ab3UK/UCdKL1jYYiRNPQ2iCsVcs5IpyhVyw4nEnsOpTuOBujmtDGoJSeozpO/4z4 7Ofmhg4R0+vR+hVXOlT47rqFwReTNa4SXiemEYa9AiRmGUHKusNAN7PigB4Rrq30 g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=+bQ3IetgQoYEMlEcAfC2TiWZuGqQE1VYHdrJepaSz 2o=; b=RsUZLnjDHJFXF0/uKLZaBZSjJPohc6FDxl0LBxPjmj/mQzdpsRPHfxfOB OAUec10TqWjXZ51+vnmvX+fb1bNA2ntEpOAt1OWEP6SaO4Zy6WLtv8TganYQRqGb 7qQxF+MicYuA8v7wLpEy7QE8IbbmnTY86HGpbv8EazpCG03ME8h2jnxRNibn3aaE I985IzjZiWH7l4mpBGur4XCp61wLyAR3sszGMQO/bHl/ObBbCuVRydJpoRVyHtzw KoYfry0jzQ7qbJxAwQYCquTesn0Gh4Ir10Iv8HYLZ2eEkARSdi/lt887djWvMdTf 34oIQ2vCS6g1wNOhCXDSexhgldZLA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrjeeigdektdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqh ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfvehhrhhishhtohhphhgvrhcuhghoohgufdcuoegtrgif sehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheptggrfies hhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 61B893C00A1; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:44:17 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <127f05e4-ff6c-4592-a7f6-c73c6ce8fd72@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <78C2C5EC-C075-43F5-92F4-D5F6B457FF77@akamai.com> References: <611506f3-82d4-32e9-5ee2-93e1cd3a6a8a@joelhalpern.com> <0661b222-669f-2904-f7e5-ddbbff5073bd@gmail.com> <3E6E2046-E0C7-46B8-859A-F2B0BC5ADF52@akamai.com> <4ae774ff-0cd5-13e5-6d05-620649a32a17@gmail.com> <6980b3b7-c287-6b17-f7d0-bbbbc20934da@gmail.com> <08122fcd-771b-4df3-a766-8f7591ef0db0@www.fastmail.com> <0E1EEFBF-F77B-4202-B54C-CBF9A222C1AD@akamai.com> <7AF2D81C-704A-48C0-A6B2-FF2AE42B6DE2@att.com> <25f9fdae-0bdb-416c-ad61-3824e3af8e06@www.fastmail.com> <78C2C5EC-C075-43F5-92F4-D5F6B457FF77@akamai.com> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:43:54 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Tracking drafts X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:44:24 -0000 Thanks, all, for discussing this issue and landing some clarification te= xt! On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > I agree. >=20 > GitHub is a repo; a design team is people. I'm fine with this text. >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2/15/20, 4:32 AM, "Martin Thomson" wro= te: >=20 > This seems like a good way to say what I intended. I will take=20= > this edit unless there are strong reasons not to. That is, we=20 > concentrate on the end result (the WG considers input) and not whether= =20 > this is a design team or editors exercising discretion. > =20 > PR updated. > =20 > On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, at 00:31, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > In general, we've long had a tradition that editors have a lot o= f=20 > > discretion in how they prepare documents, with the assumption be= ing=20 > > that if they make changes without WG consensus, then those chang= es need=20 > > to be taken to the WG. And of course the editor could have priva= te=20 > > conversations about the document, or even public ones outside th= e WG.=20 > > So in some respects GH is like that. In any case, I think the De= sign=20 > > Team analogy is confusing. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > From nobody Tue Feb 18 06:23:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1AB120152; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 06:23:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: CC: git-chairs@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org, alissa@cooperw.in, Christopher Wood , draft-ietf-git-using-github@ietf.org, caw@heapingbits.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <158203583077.14114.7196746176447029395.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 06:23:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Last Call: (Working Group GitHub Usage Guidance) to Best Current Practice X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:23:51 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the GitHub Integration and Tooling WG (git) to consider the following document: - 'Working Group GitHub Usage Guidance' as Best Current Practice The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-03-03. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document describes best practices for Working Groups that use GitHub for their work. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-using-github/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-using-github/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. The document contains these normative downward references. See RFC 3967 for additional information: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration: Working Group GitHub Administration (None - IETF stream) From nobody Sun Feb 23 17:02:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419B03A133A; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 17:01:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Brian Carpenter via Datatracker To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, draft-ietf-git-using-github.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158250611906.1067.14505081937854561120@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Brian Carpenter Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 17:01:59 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 01:01:59 -0000 Reviewer: Brian Carpenter Review result: Ready with Issues Gen-ART Last Call review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-git-using-github-04.txt Reviewer: Brian Carpenter Review Date: 2020-02-24 IETF LC End Date: 2020-03-03 IESG Telechat date: Summary: Ready with issue -------- Comment: -------- I've tracked this document since the -00 version and I think it is clear and represents WG consensus. Issues: ------- Is this draft intended to become part of BCP25? I think it would be useful for the IESG to clarify this rather than leave it to the RFC Editor. Nit: ---- > 3.4. Document Formats > > In addition to the canonical XML format [RFC7991], document editors > might choose to use a different input form for editing documents, > such as Markdown. Markdown-based formats are more accessible for new > contributors, though ultimately decisions about format is left to > document editors. s/is/are/ From nobody Sun Feb 23 18:21:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56A13A07D7; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 18:21:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Qin Wu via Datatracker To: Cc: last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-git-using-github.all@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158251090278.1088.6094983334229327241@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Qin Wu Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 18:21:42 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 02:21:43 -0000 Reviewer: Qin Wu Review result: Has Nits I have reviewed this document as part of the Ops area directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Ops area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. Good work, this draft provides working group github usage guidance and document best practice that can be referenced by all IETF working groups. A few nits that need to be fixed before moving forward: 1. Section 5.2,3rd paragraph: The word "err" is a little bit weird to me. s/err more toward/lean more toward 2. Section 5.2 5th paragraph: "As mailing lists remain the primary venue for discussion of substantive matters, this mode and the document management only modes remain those most compatible with existing work practices for Working Groups." I feel the second half sentence is disconnected and not clear. should this be changed into "...only modes which remain those most" …? 3.Section 5.4.2,last paragraph The label “v2” has some ambiguity, since each draft may have already made multiple revisions. The latest version may not start with v1. In addition, should the decision label or component label be registered in IANA? From nobody Mon Feb 24 08:05:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0D83A0E3C; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:04:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=e6b0YVyC; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=hD3frSuT Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QEWwGD7UCSi6; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B48B63A0E52; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7702621B03; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:04:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=wO6OcHvu4gYwU7Z3+4kY9qGp/txT dJlvypJ/jaYlZdo=; b=e6b0YVyCjS1KVct2AZBch6WfQjOvODsQRTV6SAYBN5Gv sL6FkDvcW1rYhobPLYq0qvIhUKY2BENVPhtFiETQDjtI38OVpTj3bJx5OmKfpu6T cXCsZztC4eeAGPlo4KEsrvRxPT0f3+kzNrAhCz9INyDi4P+l5FCPnmkJ4HnfYAZU FskgCislnwyODk0iK03TVWEtF1hfgfCWeR4MzrubX6oowB+AeSdQkEFH8sXFM4oI goqYT3cy5nEKuWgn8S3MRdv4qgeVXEIP+beo2e0j2cjpgvX+ICSJokl2GMZN6/De TqXBjBW+SUl2hkslyBIYfdMxo8QS5zZ/YcJTbg1yvg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=wO6OcH vu4gYwU7Z3+4kY9qGp/txTdJlvypJ/jaYlZdo=; b=hD3frSuTl0ICCz9j63COHr kiLclbxnr6igPNXOhcWSO2/7HY6McVLq5Dx+pFrwQSz21JkdJjN2cn+TEEHvXkwK Ami7ZgRtQ81DeUk35fLDbXl2BZdXaTPss/kzbwfz9rCzT/HUJZGK84RkA2PqgJco cME9WeuJE5eGoEW3YxFBHEbxoaPKERV62+viER4ingvSuDzxxjUFedk2ce5tDkbd JZQ8NgOyQ8Dmhyo0/wbvcwG2geumE5bV0VnEKBSRm+x8/JNj3u/ODIyQRooASeFK cldczK5Jl+FVDkSPQd8lLhbtdxVNC3L1Z9n6i5BgBtpHEELSjOqAFFJwF1x0LbeA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrledtgdekgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhht ihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucevlh hushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigv nhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 20304E00A6; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:04:49 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-947-gbed3ff6-fmstable-20200220v2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <158250611906.1067.14505081937854561120@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <158250611906.1067.14505081937854561120@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:04:09 -0800 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , gen-art@ietf.org Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, draft-ietf-git-using-github.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:04:58 -0000 Thanks Brian, On Sun, Feb 23, 2020, at 17:01, Brian Carpenter via Datatracker wrote: > Is this draft intended to become part of BCP25? I think it would be > useful for the IESG to clarify this rather than leave it to the RFC Editor. This is a good question. Given the intended status of BCP, I would say that integrating into 25 is better than creating a new number. I don't know how to best signal this intent though. And I fixed the nit in the copy on GitHub. From nobody Mon Feb 24 08:15:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CFB3A0ECC; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:15:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=s0Xl3J83; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Jg0S80oc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id POgPAOVUHTbP; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 889C03A0ED3; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A1F21FD7; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:15:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=4s MbUJOmqnZS6+blaEDQVLAbR8jb9K0r0LT8HlOuAuI=; b=s0Xl3J83yBfxu7kKAk JieG/rGDw1h4CPZdhEC9V4Ku24G4jw7xkluOaiEs3c8+Z/XPNE7hmHPEk2GsliFS ZMd/F2w6jwkgF+3/58YpgLlKZEU0Mt0xtzcWVWEUD4RqX6YM85h1Tl0D80HRvcXU cvmq6bwH5bwP6IktkuJnwzzfxqr4QL5W7gVW8DfWMhfH7o/Qjp3YPHEfqgNWwugN Nr9uRbWsRYN7LVfohE8usa8QiTzz+OvM3O6Kyu0NbQfrjPo/v52Y1aD6E0q9UHuZ lohlO248mpzU21yq57lvDuBGsAMwnl5f8jB2YVvURcChtpwPAbWgvsmzQ7hWctrt +5Qw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=4sMbUJOmqnZS6+blaEDQVLAbR8jb9K0r0LT8HlOuA uI=; b=Jg0S80ocp23MuiIwnvE8+1dGkAQolc2hcvRf3dtva74M0vqyDWRJPz7fr 1WhsqVLRC5dusx4mymQPVjZYd9+FldUEMvrMcHeBCUGw0puVfG4jjkVo+PfTaU2W pDKQZqIS5oizJLyVxmPVyYA7S0Dl5tOW46dYjUF+vjIpOeMqBnnhmEUUf1kl78RN G3fa9xTWRsAyTEigBIcKhFmGKg2eb3i23VDBUwh3BDDR9TaLnE/NPMQRDDOrgT2h DyTwcWed+5UR1j3NS/1zjdE4YklyVWclw5brX18D+j7rXzNFpasYtK/DR7KmUMpi KrkN5AItQu8B1oGn4tH/fH6SPvknQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrledtgdekiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqh ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmh epmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4CEFAE00A6; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:15:34 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-947-gbed3ff6-fmstable-20200220v2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <32106727-5d45-4473-8775-2c5b1d4682e9@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <158251090278.1088.6094983334229327241@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <158251090278.1088.6094983334229327241@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:15:13 -0800 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Qin Wu" , ops-dir@ietf.org Cc: last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-git-using-github.all@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:15:41 -0000 Thanks for the review Qin, I struggled a little with your second suggestion. I ultimately settled = on +Retaining mailing lists as the primary venue for discussion of substant= ive +matters ensures that this mode - along with the document management mod= e - is +most compatible with existing work practices for Working Groups. I chose 'future' rather than 'v2'. On Sun, Feb 23, 2020, at 18:21, Qin Wu via Datatracker wrote: > Reviewer: Qin Wu > Review result: Has Nits >=20 > I have reviewed this document as part of the Ops area directorate's on= going > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. Thes= e > comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Ops area direct= ors. > Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like a= ny other > last call comments. >=20 > Good work, this draft provides working group github usage guidance and= document > best practice that can be referenced by all IETF working groups. A few= nits > that need to be fixed before moving forward: 1. Section 5.2,3rd paragr= aph: The > word "err" is a little bit weird to me. s/err more toward/lean more to= ward 2. > Section 5.2 5th paragraph: "As mailing lists remain the primary venue = for > discussion of > substantive matters, this mode and the document management only mod= es > remain those most compatible with existing work practices for Worki= ng > Groups." > I feel the second half sentence is disconnected and not clear. should = this be > changed into "...only modes which remain those most" =E2=80=A6? 3.Sect= ion 5.4.2,last > paragraph The label =E2=80=9Cv2=E2=80=9D has some ambiguity, since eac= h draft may have already > made multiple revisions. The latest version may not start with v1. In = addition, > should the decision label or component label be registered in IANA? >=20 >=20 >=20 > From nobody Mon Feb 24 17:19:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05393A171F; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ahr4RP9WObmq; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) 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TkE/PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4g bGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPiZndDsgPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1Bs YWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPiZndDsgPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPiZndDsgPG86cD48L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMi PiZndDs8bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRt bD4NCg== --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAAD4E1D98dggeml511mbxchi_-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 12:30:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDC83A1D73; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:30:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Nancy Cam-Winget via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158292181485.22384.12881384694322889736@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Nancy Cam-Winget Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:30:14 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:30:15 -0000 Reviewer: Nancy Cam-Winget Review result: Ready SECDIR review of draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration-06 Reviewer: Nancy Cam-Winget Review result: Ready with a minor nit and question I have been tracking and actually using the guidelines and tools laid out in this document; as such, it is well written and easy to follow (thank you!). My nits/question are minor: Section 1: - Subjectively, I think the last clause in the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph is superfluous “…using GitHub in a uniform way if desired”. Could be abbreviated to “…using GitHub in a uniform way.” May be sufficient Section 5: There are actually no procedures for the pull requests; admittedly, I don’t know about GitHub’s protective measures….but as I believe anyone can generate a pull request, couldn’t this be an issue from a flood and legitimacy perspective? From nobody Fri Feb 28 17:25:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726453A0877; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:25:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Black via Datatracker To: Cc: ietf-and-github@ietf.org, draft-ietf-git-using-github.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158293952232.19620.7747617282702610852@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: David Black Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:25:22 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Ietf-and-github] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-git-using-github-04 X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 01:25:23 -0000 Reviewer: David Black Review result: Ready with Nits This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information. When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. This draft describes best practices for use of GitHub in IETF working groups and provides some very helpful policy examples. I did not see any technical issues related to the Transport Area. As this document will apply to use of GitHub by Working Groups in the Transport Area, I have a couple of editorial comments on the draft's content for the authors to consider: [1] The split of Issue Tracker material across Sections 4.1 and 5 seems off. In particular, Sections 4.1.2 and 4.1.3 on closing and reopening issues are strongly connected to the Section 5 discussion of WG policies for Issue Tracker usage and hence ought to be moved into Section 5. The Section 4.1 discussion on use of labels could likewise benefit from being merged into the more extensive discussion of WG use of labels in Section 5.4 . [2] The example WG policies in Section 5 come tantalizingly close to being well known policies that can be used by reference in a fashion analogous to the well-known IANA registry management policies in Section 4.1 of RFC 5226 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-4.1). Doing the analogous thing with these GitHub policies is likely to be greatly appreciated by WG Chairs who are new to WG use of GitHub. However, use of GitHub may not have matured to the point where this is a sensible thing to do, and hence I leave the determination of whether this should be done to the authors' and the IESG's best judgement.