From nobody Thu Jun 24 09:43:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14863A2364 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jqQxdf1jgo57 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 09:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 028783A2363 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id i4so181444ybe.2 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nCGiafbVo+4dbPNmbc8aC6ySUPuS3O1MmlcjYE0tpjY=; b=S33VpbmACjlcj4ybDDgXOgr+HZBzeq4psyzWpvA7IfX5NmnBvkh0UDyGD+q6BiDYq6 kv+henCBZdfwLXNizzUazZz3MbYMbnxu6k9XW05fztFnhMSzh3iKErLR3lQ39qHHFQSg u1R1G2S61EQ2lN7GSn22Plf/Tpurtcbxcgxr5DFT3HgnoBuu/bh6Ul1168snTPLrVkeM 3uxagb2kf6/KkNeuydQ6btYVC+KRh9+Uy15oXYB8qYs6PBE+PoQ1q9TjqFAdrE3ahB9q qmXF7PR5qD6/ZTtt9Q/SEgsBYemhsrR9Q/GxmwpqFZjfBi4UC7W9ULUVr6lUrWtYTP0A ol6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nCGiafbVo+4dbPNmbc8aC6ySUPuS3O1MmlcjYE0tpjY=; b=lBaP/W+JKRVXhGVBmZwwrYATBfGWI+jdY/h9ct+t90AQpGqMdObEWdgFuJqFR3O1QX HJKlSiusERQr4KUjamp80+s0iPjMKouSH2Gdu50W+XT+tBJ7w8/bz04QikLo7g05yyfy L2/IeV+NZwwsb5BZb/WG4aCNvb5OdJR95m3v6tfWuGiQWN6SzkpUHjPL6jT8cN50tAhR xOBFsS8k/2X2wkJvVjyl73voXj5/DQvBTKQTxg0oYiHtw8faKD+hXBjh1fpNFkWJ2otP ogCIMmDIYva8mxpnn7hr2/ra8qIqg1FFxoqQEWGA1csrL3SJ6jvclSqBhZbP132ErJyw koJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532wVLKwrkcFEGbCTXPVOYyvgI4wcuF7W0bzyDMccBuObcphwT5s Pe0D3+M+6p21s+oig9d6QY37Y3W695RKJm5j4UI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzktu9CzgC3dTatXyv7z3slstjR8OMXHd0nbu9GJU4OW+wss0tmBdQLXYq1wkz7mPNBAKph2ZGuIZuMuZRTUmQ= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3749:: with SMTP id e70mr6319757yba.53.1624553010507; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 09:43:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <122FF431-7981-4D29-820F-3C16C7F723AB@icann.org> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 11:43:04 -0500 Message-ID: To: tjw ietf Cc: "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c30de05c585b9ed" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] GIT WG disposition X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:43:37 -0000 --0000000000001c30de05c585b9ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to follow up on this ... On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:21 AM tjw ietf wrote: > Ok with closing the wg > > I think we=E2=80=99ll see chairs looking for some initial guidance. > > Reconsider the mailing list in 9 months? > That should be two meeting cycles. I think we may see chairs, and even non-chairs who might someday be chairs, asking for non-initial guidance, too. I opened https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/issues/293 in the very much appreciated i-d-template repo about "interesting" things that were happening to our draft in the MOPS repo with Circle CI, and that discussion (again, much appreciated) morphed into a discussion of whether CircleCI is helpful for continuous integration, or whether we (in this case, MOPS) should be moving to Github Actions. To be clear, I'm not talking about a recommendation that IETF WG-owned repos should all do something, because I don't believe in Santa Claus, either. I'm only asking about where people can be aware of what other WGs are doing, and how they are doing it, so WG chairs don't have to figure out what to do and how to do it, on their own. I can't be the only person who copies repos to set up other repos, rather than investigating how to best set up a repo from scratch each time ... I THINK this mailing list could/would be an appropriate place to have a discussion about that, but wanted to ask what other people think. Best, Spencer > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 31, 2020, at 10:35, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Aug 31, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Lars Eggert wro= te: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >>> On 2020-8-31, at 15:52, Alissa Cooper wrote: > >>> The chairs and I would like to close the group while keeping the > mailing list open. Please respond if you have any concerns about this, > otherwise I=E2=80=99ll hit the close button next week. > >> > >> I have a mild general preference to also see mailing lists close when > WGs go away - do we expect significant future discussion here? > > > > Personally, I do expect that there will be bursts of "how do I do $x", > "my WG wants to do $y, is that acceptable", and so on. Not enough for a > chartered WG, but enough for a mailing list. > > > > --Paul Hoffman_______________________________________________ > > Ietf-and-github mailing list > > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-and-github mailing list > Ietf-and-github@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github > --0000000000001c30de05c585b9ed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to follow up on this ...

On Mon, Aug = 31, 2020 at 10:21 AM tjw ietf <tjw= .ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok with closing the wg

I think we=E2=80=99ll see chairs looking for some initial guidance.=C2=A0 <= br>
Reconsider the mailing list in 9 months?
That should be two meeting cycles.

I think = we may see chairs, and even non-chairs who might someday be chairs, asking = for non-initial guidance, too.=C2=A0

I opened=C2= =A0htt= ps://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/issues/293 in the very much = appreciated i-d-template repo about "interesting" things that wer= e happening to our draft in the MOPS repo with Circle CI, and that discussi= on (again, much appreciated) morphed into a discussion of whether CircleCI = is helpful for continuous integration, or whether we (in this case, MOPS) s= hould be moving to Github Actions.=C2=A0

To be cle= ar, I'm not talking about a recommendation that IETF WG-owned repos sho= uld all do something, because I don't believe in Santa Claus, either. I= 'm only asking about where people can be aware of what other WGs are do= ing, and how they are doing it, so WG chairs don't have to figure out w= hat to do and how to do it, on their own.=C2=A0

I = can't be the only person who copies repos to set up other repos, rather= than investigating how to best set up a repo from scratch each time ...=C2= =A0

I THINK this mailing list could/would be an ap= propriate=C2=A0place to have a discussion about that, but wanted to ask wha= t other people think.

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
Tim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 31, 2020, at 10:35, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn Aug 31, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> On 2020-8-31, at 15:52, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
>>> The chairs and I would like to close the group while keeping t= he mailing list open. Please respond if you have any concerns about this, o= therwise I=E2=80=99ll hit the close button next week.
>>
>> I have a mild general preference to also see mailing lists close w= hen WGs go away - do we expect significant future discussion here?
>
> Personally, I do expect that there will be bursts of "how do I do= $x", "my WG wants to do $y, is that acceptable", and so on.= Not enough for a chartered WG, but enough for a mailing list.
>
> --Paul Hoffman_______________________________________________
> Ietf-and-github mailing list
> Ietf-and= -github@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iet= f-and-github

_______________________________________________
Ietf-and-github mailing list
Ietf-and-gith= ub@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-= github
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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lMwDBHQ6Bx_c for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5204A3A23E0 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id k10so11413668lfv.13 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:05:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0qt4auEC16g7YLAJiZpxP/wWnssN4OKGMcO7U0UCoCc=; b=F1Ih8fyCsbcIC5kzluq7c+hxedGQm9FHf4jfnVTFisQEN9Q8x+gcjCEPUrCEAnNqgW 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwu+93PJ4ch7/Xzba6mtCmZUyoKf2KAXNQWJZcfg1bD429n0Q1pWGzlOPSXlYpcwuT9J4eLW2Tm3pnE6rLWg4s= X-Received: by 2002:a19:ccc:: with SMTP id 195mr4681361lfm.439.1624554347034; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:05:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <122FF431-7981-4D29-820F-3C16C7F723AB@icann.org> <6DF940E4-AAF0-48AA-89FE-0FBAFD2678EA@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <6DF940E4-AAF0-48AA-89FE-0FBAFD2678EA@akamai.com> From: Tim Wicinski Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:05:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c5fa5c05c586087e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] GIT WG disposition X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 17:05:55 -0000 --000000000000c5fa5c05c586087e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So I'm sure i'm doing this all wrong, but scraping https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ I see 121 WGs. running a bunch of curl against github.com/ietf-wg- I end up with 26 200 95 404 I am sure the secretariat has better numbers On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 12:54 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > - To be clear, I'm not talking about a recommendation that IETF > WG-owned repos should all do something, because I don't believe in San= ta > Claus, either. I'm only asking about where people can be aware of what > other WGs are doing, and how they are doing it, so WG chairs don't hav= e to > figure out what to do and how to do it, on their own. > > > > Naming things consistently, such as ietf-wg-xxxx helps make it easier to > find them. That=E2=80=99s in the RFC. > > > > - I THINK this mailing list could/would be an appropriate place to > have a discussion about that, but wanted to ask what other people thin= k. > > > > I wrote some scripts to handle common WG-chair workflow adopt a draft, > etc. They need some work. Issues and PR=E2=80=99s welcome: > https://github.com/richsalz/ietf-gh-scripts > > > --000000000000c5fa5c05c586087e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

S= o I'm sure i'm doing this all wrong, but scraping=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ I see= 121 WGs.=C2=A0

running=C2=A0a bunch of curl against github.com/ietf-wg-<wg>

I end up with=C2=A0
=C2=A0 26 200
=C2=A0 95 404

I am sure the secretariat has b= etter numbers

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 12:54 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
  • To be clear, I'm not talking about a recommendation that IETF = WG-owned repos should all do something, because I don't believe in Sant= a Claus, either. I'm only asking about where people can be aware of what other WGs are doing, and how they are doing it, so WG= chairs don't have to figure out what to do and how to do it, on their = own.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Naming things consistently, such as ietf-wg-xxxx hel= ps make it easier to find them. That=E2=80=99s in the RFC.

=C2=A0

  • I THINK this mailing list could/would be an appropriate=C2=A0place= to have a discussion about that, but wanted to ask what other people think= .

=C2=A0

I wrote some scripts to handle common WG-chair workf= low adopt a draft, etc.=C2=A0 They need some work.=C2=A0 Issues and PR=E2= =80=99s welcome: h= ttps://github.com/richsalz/ietf-gh-scripts

=C2=A0

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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4ezoZ8+4qe2/Cb9CkvtPUeOB3eitXgiQbZVQjYxXslY=; b=nUjIVU3yhVtfUYRZcY9FUFNDS9AUYAw4nX21OkIASFRKfGhopQnwICFC9xk9dUEhVf ZXgYH83tXAURyCP3cMqvEfO80Apvi5BbMD7QXD86EfAOTVXK5hucWYuJcEBq53hfe8Kr P3MUgAf/Ll9id4ChEE9w3dnEA52yHXhC1jTd6xEuHGyonSFtDZleHl/fVHC+WvAZ91DT +cgiFO7dylRodnM2CPt/VPOmZfB+6Qk3ET/d+PZrq9SW6My28EnETq4L0xbTWGxi4GRN 8zgpXMvnvckb43vMkrXrI2rjNffPm7+Nsx0B77DgDeTH9gdE7wIcNb4d/P0yr8P9XSN0 xjqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4ezoZ8+4qe2/Cb9CkvtPUeOB3eitXgiQbZVQjYxXslY=; b=YnRaq8zIKo+ZZRkfpV/G48eXFg1DqWaegvFtSr9PeefrTYFPvLrTtPvaKVk2vySPXB Ozgf2v/2QtDCktd4ZoBAcy48E+x0G1TY2LtiuIwA51s2lMazgDuTIKAd9S4QBcpiX67P jhvplGRdyJ3EWr1eBVk8SxKJ6sLBOBuDaXfcC3/i/otOtqwzDqEyKLvm/kQaCUU0vuRh Xh7ePoItmHfXlCjxhdT9I4aYcz9dkPrZhR5K8m+JKkQ1nRw/ieJxk7ZQOZVtnFZ4IKD8 +w4EHy5xp/sy86PVqaV7oJSA3vngs1YcmRrx0LWJ039XgOdF98ZFsWnvtz2YlYuS8HnH 35bw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53073h+sfGGYCu7BSdd63idRxifIb8AppayHnPpNpiST/bLptD/g HbivGyFHnH9Tm/SfoYb0yQUAc0lg7tc4EwtkQUU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbYwDz9YlqIKsU0+EmO4ACSA6SyGfxsAv+Fjpj5Y8jI/imrwpuxvF3FDq98c3m0GKYRc7C52AzDd27550rHO8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:f446:: with SMTP id p6mr7253462ybe.288.1624559026808; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 11:23:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <122FF431-7981-4D29-820F-3C16C7F723AB@icann.org> <6DF940E4-AAF0-48AA-89FE-0FBAFD2678EA@akamai.com> <7AD8F122-5082-4A04-874D-72C5D05AAA9F@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <7AD8F122-5082-4A04-874D-72C5D05AAA9F@akamai.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:23:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Tim Wicinski , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b5a9fb05c5871f64" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] GIT WG disposition X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:23:53 -0000 --000000000000b5a9fb05c5871f64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just following up, On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 12:10 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > Yup, we=E2=80=99re not the github police either. And some WG=E2=80=99s e= xisted before the > RFC. > We made the decision (correctly, I thought) to include darned little about the way Github repos are set up and administered in a published BCP, but that leaves open the question of where we could publicize as a venue for topics that draft authors should be aware of, that would be pretty dynamic(*). The "CircleCI breakage" issue I mentioned earlier in this thread is one example, along with the related question of what other people are doing (Travis, Github Actions, or who knows what). So that was in an issue in the i-d-template repo (https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/issues/293 ). Last week's interesting topic was on tools-discuss - it turns out that although we are just starting to publish drafts and RFCs with internationalized names, we're apparently seeing non-transliterated names in references now (even expired ones), and there might be interesting consequences. So that was on an IETF mailing list ( https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/eCDha5w4NLx-PX0DzenHC7C= SJcE/ ). A day or two before that, I tripped over a bug that kramdown-rfc2629 currently produces v2 rfcxml (aka xml2rfc v2 input), but xml2rfc command-line by default assumes --v3. If it sees v2 input, it internally runs the v2->v3 converter, so the tools team needs to change the datatracker's submit code (which uses xml2rfc as a library) to run v2v3 when it sees v2 now instead of just running the v2 parser. This one was discussed in a TRAC ticket, by Robert Sparks' request (at https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/ticket/3305). I know people (I'm co-chair with Michael Richardson and I have zoom taco lunches with Robert and Henrik almost every Friday), and even for me, this is kind of a snipe hunt ... I can't imagine being a new participant, and I'd just as soon not drive people crazy because they have to answer the same questions multiple times. Best, Spencer (*) Should that be a Github repo? Ducking now ... --000000000000b5a9fb05c5871f64 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just following up,=C2=A0

On Thu, Jun 24, 2= 021 at 12:10 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

Yup, we=E2=80=99re not the github police either.=C2= =A0 And some WG=E2=80=99s existed before the RFC.


We made the decision (correctly, I thought) to inclu= de darned little about the way Github repos are set up and administered in = a published BCP, but that leaves open the question of where we could public= ize as a venue for topics that draft authors should be aware of, that would= be pretty dynamic(*).

The "CircleCI breakage= " issue I mentioned earlier in this thread is one example, along with = the related question of what other people are doing (Travis, Github Actions= , or who knows what). So that was in an issue in the i-d-template repo (https://g= ithub.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/issues/293).

<= div>Last week's interesting topic was on tools-discuss - it turns out t= hat although we are just starting to publish drafts and RFCs with internati= onalized names, we're apparently seeing non-transliterated names in ref= erences now (even expired ones), and there might be interesting consequence= s. So that was on an IETF mailing list (https://mailarchi= ve.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/eCDha5w4NLx-PX0DzenHC7CSJcE/).
=

A day or two before that, I tripped over a bug that kra= mdown-rfc2629 currently produces v2 rfcxml (aka xml2rfc v2 input), but xml2= rfc command-line by default assumes --v3. If it sees v2 input, it internall= y runs the v2->v3 converter, so the tools team needs to change the datat= racker's submit code (which uses xml2rfc as a library) to run v2v3 when= it sees v2 now instead of just running the v2 parser. This one was discuss= ed in a TRAC ticket, by Robert Sparks' request (at=C2=A0https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfd= b/ticket/3305).

I know people (I'm co-chai= r with Michael Richardson and I have zoom taco lunches with Robert and Henr= ik almost every Friday), and even for me, this is kind of a snipe hunt ... = I can't imagine being a new participant, and I'd just as soon not d= rive people crazy because they have to answer the same questions multiple t= imes.=C2=A0

Best,

Spencer=

(*) Should that be a Github repo? Ducking now ...= =C2=A0
--000000000000b5a9fb05c5871f64-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 12:04:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6B43A27B9 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:04:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MaZIW-3bHTdG for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CEB13A27BA for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4G9qM16tL4z2xHV; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 21:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 21:04:45 +0200 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Tim Wicinski , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 646254285.463773-1c6510deb20bade0ecfcb2cbcceb8e5c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1E0A67AA-AEA2-4FE9-AE3C-26EB752A8DFF@tzi.org> References: <122FF431-7981-4D29-820F-3C16C7F723AB@icann.org> <6DF940E4-AAF0-48AA-89FE-0FBAFD2678EA@akamai.com> <7AD8F122-5082-4A04-874D-72C5D05AAA9F@akamai.com> To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] GIT WG disposition X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:04:53 -0000 On 2021-06-24, at 20:23, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > A day or two before that, I tripped over a bug that kramdown-rfc2629 = currently produces v2 rfcxml (aka xml2rfc v2 input), (That is not the bug.) Kramdown-rfc2629 actually produces output that is optimized for = conversion by xml2rfc into whatever xml2rfc happens to consider to be = the v3 of the day. (Using the --v3 flag on kramdown-rfc2629 enables using all of the v3 = features and gives up v2 compatibility for that.) > but xml2rfc command-line by default assumes --v3. If it sees v2 input, = it internally runs the v2->v3 converter, Exactly, but that is designed to eat v3-in-a-v2-shell as produced by = kramdown-rfc. > so the tools team needs to change the datatracker's submit code (which = uses xml2rfc as a library) to run v2v3 when it sees v2 now instead of = just running the v2 parser. Right, *that* is the bug (i.e., trying to stick to pre-transition = software when the element doesn=E2=80=99t happen to look just = right). (Note that the pre-transition software is *not* being used by the RFC = production center, so this approach is not only the wrong one to run a = transition, but also produces late surprises when publishing the = document as an RFC.) > This one was discussed in a TRAC ticket, by Robert Sparks' request (at = https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/ticket/3305). Indeed, and I look forward to getting that fixed. I still recommend generating the .v2v3.xml before going to datatracker's = submission interface, so there is more control over the generation = process; it has not always been clear what version of xml2rfc is running = under the submission process (sometimes weird environmental issues such = as locale mess this up). (If the above sounds a bit jaded: The transition strategy used by = xml2rfc works exceedingly well, and I have a lot of respect for Henrik = and others getting this right at such an amazing level of precision. = It=E2=80=99s just incredibly frustrating when that great tool then is = wedged into a submission process that doesn=E2=80=99t handle the = transition as well.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jun 24 13:17:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584453A29CD for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VTnfB3XiIhiI for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb34.google.com (mail-yb1-xb34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A1363A29CC for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb34.google.com with SMTP id c8so1135945ybq.1 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pIsVtw2MlaSPzAY+LmOjO0fa6WetJGMmFc7h9nbWm+M=; b=cRZ15Zy3PL5zzWm1KyXS4Nq0+NvyYv2rtmg38+1TEErXEei2KrOMwErp1x+T8Pd5tO JUhgjgcM8wSQ6DP2iWUhFom9zvCRVgTcU+sYISkDQ907xebDFV+kXL1no2RBkV5rLqb0 Dx3Ui4P4bJTq9oAdlkreAnRy+rx2+c3Iq7BDWK3twpFI1AmQ2AD2AHRJK0CLrKgVZD6t fd+6DxEABsyvXCi6ZX9PTo0acvY8LTTlaGw24/asjmBTSJMEIximEQKzWbnRQou2HCTY 3571CMuj9szSWHSsFbAxs6Z0T8kF2zrcSXDWoSSW3Z5Di+52HowGtHu4OQAL8VLdW3I/ rEJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pIsVtw2MlaSPzAY+LmOjO0fa6WetJGMmFc7h9nbWm+M=; b=OWJJFiYRAKTSgtDDHgE2ZOdCeBXSnmERh3d6+UTBZ3rt9pv2v8zHL4OOcHSivekjNz 7h8qpSOui830BsuD3rSuQO/PBxE826CD+7lzyx8ynqT3ZTGKhLdeFc9Ho64aqHZXBhgW TBvhN5JuqrSCWNYyXxPjEjmX+ebHq4pT43/uyEwtnvIjLwjWqvcWAhNbJyHzDXFu80jS /v4tZJaWhq1jgwyL5G24a0m5LDYQaMfbM1P/MGqTSNSlJ5RZ+5fT6Ji3h4YFkGXWs/q8 L+WWDTwqGJYrV1VHWzLWNqPsc+042pFhq8C1KMiAT6edMaufPQ51O9XgQxYliGbINEuA /dDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320zp27Jk41hlDAcCVFXWrEPPIDTv1pS+t3yR/7BrEafUJZnqt+ Wr1ZwsEkOi7pJ+cFT3QvsNNcJmkBvp1eRBeAehFe4N2rlCk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9/SEpPYkSF5ib0h+Xl8kw+ZvCSdDWaJN/NZwA3eAGfypFYozAA7g2XTSVeKam2ieT5cWHjr7BGSPrJa8eWrE= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5084:: with SMTP id e126mr7768562ybb.84.1624565825571; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:17:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <122FF431-7981-4D29-820F-3C16C7F723AB@icann.org> <6DF940E4-AAF0-48AA-89FE-0FBAFD2678EA@akamai.com> <7AD8F122-5082-4A04-874D-72C5D05AAA9F@akamai.com> <1E0A67AA-AEA2-4FE9-AE3C-26EB752A8DFF@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <1E0A67AA-AEA2-4FE9-AE3C-26EB752A8DFF@tzi.org> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:16:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Tim Wicinski , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f28d8f05c588b44c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] GIT WG disposition X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 20:17:12 -0000 --000000000000f28d8f05c588b44c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Carsten, On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 2:04 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-06-24, at 20:23, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > A day or two before that, I tripped over a bug that kramdown-rfc2629 > currently produces v2 rfcxml (aka xml2rfc v2 input), > > (That is not the bug.) > Kramdown-rfc2629 actually produces output that is optimized for conversio= n > by xml2rfc into whatever xml2rfc happens to consider to be the v3 of the > day. > (Using the --v3 flag on kramdown-rfc2629 enables using all of the v3 > features and gives up v2 compatibility for that.) > > > but xml2rfc command-line by default assumes --v3. If it sees v2 input, > it internally runs the v2->v3 converter, > > Exactly, but that is designed to eat v3-in-a-v2-shell as produced by > kramdown-rfc. > > > so the tools team needs to change the datatracker's submit code (which > uses xml2rfc as a library) to run v2v3 when it sees v2 now instead of jus= t > running the v2 parser. > > Right, *that* is the bug (i.e., trying to stick to pre-transition softwar= e > when the element doesn=E2=80=99t happen to look just right). > (Note that the pre-transition software is *not* being used by the RFC > production center, so this approach is not only the wrong one to run a > transition, but also produces late surprises when publishing the document > as an RFC.) > Of course, I owe everyone who maintains the tools I use a mention of appreciation - I understand how to USE them in most cases unless something goes sideways, but don't understand the ins and outs well enough to be comfortable opening github issues, TRAC issues, or dropping email to tools-discuss, unless I'm pretty sure I'm not wasting their/your time! My apologies about anything else I mischaracterized, of course. And now, I hope, back to the search for a place that makes sense to talk about commonly used IETF draft production tools, some, but not all, being under control of the tools team ... Best, Spencer > > This one was discussed in a TRAC ticket, by Robert Sparks' request (at > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/ticket/3305). > > Indeed, and I look forward to getting that fixed. > > I still recommend generating the .v2v3.xml before going to datatracker's > submission interface, so there is more control over the generation proces= s; > it has not always been clear what version of xml2rfc is running under the > submission process (sometimes weird environmental issues such as locale > mess this up). > > (If the above sounds a bit jaded: The transition strategy used by xml2rf= c > works exceedingly well, and I have a lot of respect for Henrik and others > getting this right at such an amazing level of precision. It=E2=80=99s j= ust > incredibly frustrating when that great tool then is wedged into a > submission process that doesn=E2=80=99t handle the transition as well.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --000000000000f28d8f05c588b44c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Carsten,=C2=A0

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at= 2:04 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On= 2021-06-24, at 20:23, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A day or two before that, I tripped over a bug that kramdown-rfc2629 c= urrently produces v2 rfcxml (aka xml2rfc v2 input),

(That is not the bug.)
Kramdown-rfc2629 actually produces output that is optimized for conversion = by xml2rfc into whatever xml2rfc happens to consider to be the v3 of the da= y.
(Using the --v3 flag on kramdown-rfc2629 enables using all of the v3 featur= es and gives up v2 compatibility for that.)

> but xml2rfc command-line by default assumes --v3. If it sees v2 input,= it internally runs the v2->v3 converter,

Exactly, but that is designed to eat v3-in-a-v2-shell as produced by kramdo= wn-rfc.

> so the tools team needs to change the datatracker's submit code (w= hich uses xml2rfc as a library) to run v2v3 when it sees v2 now instead of = just running the v2 parser.

Right, *that* is the bug (i.e., trying to stick to pre-transition software = when the <rfc> element doesn=E2=80=99t happen to look just right). (Note that the pre-transition software is *not* being used by the RFC produ= ction center, so this approach is not only the wrong one to run a transitio= n, but also produces late surprises when publishing the document as an RFC.= )




> This one was discussed in a TRAC ticket, by Robert = Sparks' request (at https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf= db/ticket/3305).

Indeed, and I look forward to getting that fixed.

I still recommend generating the .v2v3.xml before going to datatracker'= s submission interface, so there is more control over the generation proces= s; it has not always been clear what version of xml2rfc is running under th= e submission process (sometimes weird environmental issues such as locale m= ess this up).

(If the above sounds a bit jaded:=C2=A0 The transition strategy used by xml= 2rfc works exceedingly well, and I have a lot of respect for Henrik and oth= ers getting this right at such an amazing level of precision.=C2=A0 It=E2= =80=99s just incredibly frustrating when that great tool then is wedged int= o a submission process that doesn=E2=80=99t handle the transition as well.)=

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

--000000000000f28d8f05c588b44c-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 13:24:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D873A29F6 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTShEyDDIsOd for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B07403A29F5 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4G9s6W6W4Xz2xY8; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 22:24:03 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 22:24:03 +0200 Cc: Tim Wicinski , "Salz, Rich" , "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 646259043.237775-dac9f8c7f7c2f940f35eda2edc0bf166 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <122FF431-7981-4D29-820F-3C16C7F723AB@icann.org> <6DF940E4-AAF0-48AA-89FE-0FBAFD2678EA@akamai.com> <7AD8F122-5082-4A04-874D-72C5D05AAA9F@akamai.com> <1E0A67AA-AEA2-4FE9-AE3C-26EB752A8DFF@tzi.org> To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] [Ext] GIT WG disposition X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 20:24:08 -0000 On 2021-06-24, at 22:16, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > And now, I hope, back to the search for a place that makes sense to = talk about commonly used IETF draft production tools, some, but not all, = being under control of the tools team ... I=E2=80=99d say that is still tools-discuss. We also have rfc-markdown for kramdown-rfc and mmark discussions, = xml2rfc and xml2rfc-dev, and of course this place (ietf-and-github) for = how-to-use-git-in-ietf-wg-practice discussion. There is unavoidable overlap between them, also with rfc-interest which = should get the RFCXML vocabulary discussion. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten