From nobody Thu Apr 10 19:08:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA1C1A01E1 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gHQjF0FI70yM for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19FB1A03A6 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 7156E18000B; Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:08:20 -0700 (PDT) To: fujiwara@jprs.co.jp, barryleiba@computer.org, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, john-ietf@jck.com, jyee@afilias.info X-PHP-Originating-Script: 6000:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/_1zcD-ySZ31tkWquLbtRw7BNP-4 Cc: poccil14@gmail.com, ima@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 02:08:34 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC6857, "Post-Delivery Message Downgrading for Internationalized Email Messages". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6857&eid=3955 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Peter Occil Section: A Original Text ------------- Received: from ... by ... Received: from ... by ... From: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-LOCAL?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-LOCAL@example.com?= :; To: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE1?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE1@example.net?= :;, =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE2?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE2@example.com?= :;, Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE3?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE3@example.org?= :; Corrected Text -------------- Received: from ... by ... Received: from ... by ... From: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-LOCAL?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-LOCAL=40example=2Ecom?= :; To: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE1?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE1=40example=2Enet?= :;, =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE2?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE2=40example=2Ecom?= :;, Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE3?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE3=40example=2Eorg?= :; Notes ----- The characters '@' and '.' cannot appear in an encoded-word occurring in a phrase (see rule 3 of section 5 of RFC 2047), so they must be escaped with '=40' and '=2E', respectively, in the Q encoding. (Note: A correction for the Return-Path header field is not given here because the downgrading method for the Return-Path field is wrong from the start: Return-Path is defined as a "path" ("angle-addr" or an empty pair of angle brackets) and not an "address", doesn't contain a "phrase", and isn't an unstructured header field, so the encoded word in Return-Path can't occur where it does in the example. A future update of this document should take this into account.) Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC6857 (draft-ietf-eai-popimap-downgrade-08) -------------------------------------- Title : Post-Delivery Message Downgrading for Internationalized Email Messages Publication Date : March 2013 Author(s) : K. Fujiwara Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Email Address Internationalization Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Sun Apr 13 21:42:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A561A0339 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.526 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.526 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UPLwxVxwSYKV for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB10B1A033B for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P6M28KM5TC006CSQ@mauve.mrochek.com> for ima@ietf.org; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:37:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P6J01PRR8W00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ima@ietf.org; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:36:58 -0700 (PDT) From: ned+ima@mrochek.com Message-id: <01P6M28J3Z9A00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:19:47 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:08:20 -0700 (PDT)" <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> References: <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> To: RFC Errata System Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/kQbxbXHguX7WZF3IzwTGernmXcU Cc: poccil14@gmail.com, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, ima@ietf.org, john-ietf@jck.com, barryleiba@computer.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 04:42:08 -0000 This erratum looks valid to me. I do note that the parenthetical note at the end should not be included. There probably should be a separate erratum for the Return-path issue, which should be held for document update. Ned > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC6857, > "Post-Delivery Message Downgrading for Internationalized Email Messages". > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6857&eid=3955 > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Peter Occil > Section: A > Original Text > ------------- > Received: from ... by ... > Received: from ... by ... > From: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-LOCAL?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-LOCAL@example.com?= :; > To: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE1?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE1@example.net?= :;, > =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE2?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE2@example.com?= :;, > Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE3?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE3@example.org?= :; > Corrected Text > -------------- > Received: from ... by ... > Received: from ... by ... > From: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-LOCAL?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-LOCAL=40example=2Ecom?= :; > To: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE1?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE1=40example=2Enet?= :;, > =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE2?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE2=40example=2Ecom?= :;, > Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE3?= > =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE3=40example=2Eorg?= :; > Notes > ----- > The characters '@' and '.' cannot appear in an encoded-word occurring > in a phrase (see rule 3 of section 5 of RFC 2047), so they must be escaped > with '=40' and '=2E', respectively, in the Q encoding. > (Note: A correction for the Return-Path header field is not given here because the downgrading method for the Return-Path field is wrong from the start: Return-Path is defined as a "path" ("angle-addr" or an empty pair of angle brackets) and not an "address", doesn't contain a "phrase", and isn't an unstructured header field, so the encoded word in Return-Path can't occur where it does in the example. A future update of this document should take this into account.) > Instructions: > ------------- > This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > -------------------------------------- > RFC6857 (draft-ietf-eai-popimap-downgrade-08) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Post-Delivery Message Downgrading for Internationalized Email Messages > Publication Date : March 2013 > Author(s) : K. Fujiwara > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Email Address Internationalization > Area : Applications > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From nobody Mon Apr 14 10:11:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458BF1A059F for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:11:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fj3QgTftlumD for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22d.google.com (mail-lb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FD81A0648 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f173.google.com with SMTP id p9so5900224lbv.18 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=stNVAcoNRruThghhzd+YkKIMp1MF3ePA7cKLwDe2c5s=; b=dsCV3s7I2rkcJBeR3ETZBA9YnuXn/34YXpnWUEL8OxidPaS0AgM6OpvSi3bQno47vc ir+db0LZIv1wtlbvp2HNrhS46noMBKK+32GPWM+bukWL3sP34cDSQnDQ76W01LztVsVH HTgh5LF2qScfKU1vys4Ok1aqOLxoBHU2h12smrfAFhoTNnRG0dNX4OFxnNu/rAtyYORr ztDXGecrkjn9bCN3hWF/Jrd3zhpml7bvqPmMhzGGYPMeEhrYHjeTO5J5/2QuyH1tnG5c CYp2Zp/DaxgQqH4kuLZPtWVKvd+mcHuQpaGppNoY+MOeZUEuW+f2nxIM2T51cRKPHpWp pBZQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.153.7.69 with SMTP id da5mr2576246lad.38.1397495488755; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.152.148.97 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <957F5EE57E2449509A3C28B36A860311@PeterPC> References: <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> <01P6M28J3Z9A00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <957F5EE57E2449509A3C28B36A860311@PeterPC> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:11:28 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: -u7f64nq81ZcFUwKSUJ5QONC6_0 Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Peter Occil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/R0roWsn9_lok1ez_RQoK0uDm7E4 Cc: Ned Freed , Pete Resnick , "ima@ietf.org" , John Klensin , RFC Errata System Subject: Re: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:11:37 -0000 > The thing is, though, I don't know what that erratum should look like. > Saying that the Return-Path field should be deleted, for example, may go too > far, as the issue with the Return-Path downgrading may go beyond simply > deleting that header field. Though this may be the easiest course to take, > this is only one of several plausible corrections that ought to be discussed > in a future update, such as: > > - Extending the Return-Path field to allow group syntax, but with limited > use, as is done for the From and Sender header fields; or > - Reinstating the Downgraded-Return-Path header field for use in case the > Return-Path header field can't be converted to ASCII in any other way; or > - Simply deleting the header field when it contains non-ASCII characters > (note that Return-Path is optional under sec. 3.6.7 of RFC 5322). > > Saying which one is correct goes too far for an erratum. Well, exactly so, and that's why the RFC Editor does not want the errata system to be used as an issues collection point. If you think something is an erratum, you should submit a report. If you think that something's an error, but that correcting the error goes beyond the scope of errata, you should report the problem someplace else. Unfortunately, we don't have a good place for that in general. Fortunately, we do have a good place for that in this case: the former EAI working group has a wiki, and the report can be added to the wiki to remind us to deal with it when it's appropriate: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/eai/trac/wiki (That's just the raw wiki-start page right now; its entire content can be replaced with the return-path error report.) Barry From nobody Mon Apr 14 10:19:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2F41A068D for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:19:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tAVk6O2_g8-q for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B8241A0673 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1WZkWu-0005Fe-AN; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:18:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:18:47 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Barry Leiba , Peter Occil Message-ID: <742FD7AE105ED77E40E6F7DB@[192.168.213.144]> In-Reply-To: References: <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> <01P6M28J3Z9A00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <957F5EE57E2449509A3C28B36A860311@PeterPC> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/h4wPC7Kq4CMJITvkLZ8-5alzZ8A Cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , ima@ietf.org, RFC Errata System Subject: Re: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:19:01 -0000 --On Monday, 14 April, 2014 13:11 -0400 Barry Leiba wrote: > Fortunately, we do have a good place for that in this case: > the former EAI working group has a wiki, and the report can be > added to the wiki to remind us to deal with it when it's > appropriate: > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/eai/trac/wiki > > (That's just the raw wiki-start page right now; its entire > content can be replaced with the return-path error report.) > From nobody Mon Apr 14 10:22:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2FB31A0699 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:22:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id it2KNzNIAZ70 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9901A0648 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1WZkaK-0005GO-I9; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:22:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:22:20 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Barry Leiba , Peter Occil Message-ID: <57FCD3397B322F07A7572255@[192.168.213.144]> In-Reply-To: References: <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> <01P6M28J3Z9A00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <957F5EE57E2449509A3C28B36A860311@PeterPC> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/mp215xaye7gg24KYtmzA_VR4Kl0 Cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , ima@ietf.org, RFC Errata System Subject: Re: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:22:32 -0000 Sorry for the last note... long night, little sleep. RFC Editor removed as an act of mercy. --On Monday, 14 April, 2014 13:11 -0400 Barry Leiba wrote: >... > Fortunately, we do have a good place for that in this case: > the former EAI working group has a wiki, and the report can be > added to the wiki to remind us to deal with it when it's > appropriate: > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/eai/trac/wiki > > (That's just the raw wiki-start page right now; its entire > content can be replaced with the return-path error report.) The other good news is that a few of us are highly motivated to move this stuff to full standard as soon as sufficient interoperability can be demonstrated, so these things, if noted, are likely to get fixed. So, Peter, in addition to leaving a note in the wiki, I suggest you subscribe to the EAI WG mailing list (if you haven't already) and post a note there inquiring as to what should be done to fix this... or making a proposal if you have one. thanks john From nobody Mon Apr 14 18:09:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0651A0656 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.439] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MgC_FHfgkoRg for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x235.google.com (mail-qc0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AC61A064C for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f181.google.com with SMTP id x3so8941703qcv.40 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:01:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:importance; bh=LLuMM72O51YbaWjM9t60M1sE4/91Jl/C0QS/bQnKhcE=; b=qLLigq5bX+AexVBiBiGr4czfd+r58zokiW+TSTROTSV290nEbb841eJwAW2bTaWNfH vFha3fPpw/np4aeekxHscg0H7kg8lwaIlpQBOtmGQYaNHrbQnaTToEEAvnDimrIWRp1a ys0ZwJSeEarrHZNbrCvs7HN83dBzoPMpsz24mwqEAmY9jgwdDrY+G0XpQUst0Hng0kvS 3bcglxLy9U+WJlCnT8x9UOr7x9jwAiLFuYwK03vR36Ek42T7bVUx3tVlYQNmH1peCjbw 10wR2B/XuO/Xzg9YZo2IQOYSzcx/XjWBgKYAgtkNDY2mQsl8f4ve4aMXP7Pie6nqxuxI LfdA== X-Received: by 10.229.216.72 with SMTP id hh8mr52917929qcb.9.1397494898474; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PeterPC (c-50-169-108-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [50.169.108.108]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b17sm1093305qaq.25.2014.04.14.10.01.36 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <957F5EE57E2449509A3C28B36A860311@PeterPC> From: "Peter Occil" To: "Ned Freed" , "RFC Errata System" References: <20140411020820.7156E18000B@rfc-editor.org> <01P6M28J3Z9A00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01P6M28J3Z9A00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:01:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 140414-0, 04/14/2014), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/cuuwJaoJyTdWTqgv_aMBcOmBWBI X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 18:09:35 -0700 Cc: presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, ima@ietf.org, john-ietf@jck.com, barryleiba@computer.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:01:45 -0000 The thing is, though, I don't know what that erratum should look like. Saying that the Return-Path field should be deleted, for example, may go too far, as the issue with the Return-Path downgrading may go beyond simply deleting that header field. Though this may be the easiest course to take, this is only one of several plausible corrections that ought to be discussed in a future update, such as: - Extending the Return-Path field to allow group syntax, but with limited use, as is done for the From and Sender header fields; or - Reinstating the Downgraded-Return-Path header field for use in case the Return-Path header field can't be converted to ASCII in any other way; or - Simply deleting the header field when it contains non-ASCII characters (note that Return-Path is optional under sec. 3.6.7 of RFC 5322). Saying which one is correct goes too far for an erratum. --Peter -----Original Message----- From: Ned Freed Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 12:19 AM To: RFC Errata System Cc: fujiwara@jprs.co.jp ; barryleiba@computer.org ; presnick@qti.qualcomm.com ; john-ietf@jck.com ; jyee@afilias.info ; poccil14@gmail.com ; ima@ietf.org ; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [EAI] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6857 (3955) This erratum looks valid to me. I do note that the parenthetical note at the end should not be included. There probably should be a separate erratum for the Return-path issue, which should be held for document update. Ned From nobody Wed Apr 16 08:43:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE931A01AE; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mF9thRUOPDqW; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138F71A01AC; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 5C3B51801A3; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:42:33 -0700 (PDT) To: poccil14@gmail.com, fujiwara@jprs.co.jp X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140416154233.5C3B51801A3@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/fGtK9EfpTrj3Q7_Ep1PpmmPvAoM Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, barryleiba@computer.org, iesg@ietf.org, ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] [Errata Verified] RFC6857 (3955) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:43:06 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC6857, "Post-Delivery Message Downgrading for Internationalized Email Messages". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6857&eid=3955 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Technical Reported by: Peter Occil Date Reported: 2014-04-10 Verified by: Barry Leiba (IESG) Section: A Original Text ------------- Received: from ... by ... Received: from ... by ... From: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-LOCAL?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-LOCAL@example.com?= :; To: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE1?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE1@example.net?= :;, =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE2?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE2@example.com?= :;, Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE3?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE3@example.org?= :; Corrected Text -------------- Received: from ... by ... Received: from ... by ... From: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-LOCAL?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-LOCAL=40example=2Ecom?= :; To: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE1?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE1=40example=2Enet?= :;, =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE2?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE2=40example=2Ecom?= :;, Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?DISPLAY-REMOTE3?= =?UTF-8?Q?NON-ASCII-REMOTE3=40example=2Eorg?= :; Notes ----- The characters '@' and '.' cannot appear in an encoded-word occurring in a phrase (see rule 3 of section 5 of RFC 2047), so they must be escaped with '=40' and '=2E', respectively, in the Q encoding. -------------------------------------- RFC6857 (draft-ietf-eai-popimap-downgrade-08) -------------------------------------- Title : Post-Delivery Message Downgrading for Internationalized Email Messages Publication Date : March 2013 Author(s) : K. Fujiwara Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Email Address Internationalization Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Tue Apr 22 13:14:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22BC1A014D for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:14:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.895 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 72_zfptV6mkV for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from govert.macfreek.nl (govert.macfreek.nl [IPv6:2a01:238:43ed:a300:ea00:54c2:fb7a:7e66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD471A019F for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by govert.macfreek.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773B264A0C9 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:14:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from govert.macfreek.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (govert.macfreek.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DeE2aT-dWize for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:14:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lampje.macfreek.nl (77-175-188-43.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl [77.175.188.43]) by govert.macfreek.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DBABC64A0B3 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:13:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:14:07 +0200 From: Freek Dijkstra Organization: SURFsara User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ima@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/CCLng4fMEUQxSWfqwDfAUPpnpdM Subject: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:14:15 -0000 Hi all, First of all, let me state that I'm a novice when it comes to the SMTP protcol. With that, and risking a heated discussion, let me ask the question: What's the best way for a library to support EAI for the recipient address? Mostly for fun, I give students a little challenge at the end of a yearly colloquium (on an unrelated topic) I give at a local university. This year, the challenge was to drop me an email at √9@3.14π.eu, hopefully challenging them to think about web standards (in this case IMA, IDNA and IPv6 -- the later because this particular domain's resolvers no longer support the deprecated IPv4 protocol ;) ). Of course, my challenge was to make it work. To test, I wrote a simple Python script [1], and also created a bug report to support EAI for the Python smtplib library [2]. Of course, the question came up how to handle MTAs that do not support the SMTPUTF8 extension. According to RFC 6530 sect 8, the proper way is to "return the message to the originating user so the message may be manually downgraded to the traditional form" (e.g. try again with an ASCII address). We interpreted that we should modify the smtplib.sendmail() method to both take a UTF-8 encoded mail address as well as a related ASCII mail address for the to_address. This seemed clumsy to us: when a user has to specify a ASCII variant in the first place, what would be the value of adding another UTF-8 variant? So I asked how a MTA like Postfix handled the situation [3] and got a response that it will not be supported unless SMTPUTF8 provides a path for gradual migration, and without an option for a SMPTUTF8-capable MTA to forward email with an SMPTUTF8 sender address to a non-SMPTUTF8 MTA, that SMTPUTF8 will fail. (Some participants in the discussion even stated that for this reason, thay hope that SMTPUTF8 will fail, but Wietse pointed out that he still hopes that some clever person will come up with a tweak to the proposed protocols that avoids the need to bounce email with a non-ASCII sender, or non-ASCII whatever). Rather than admitting defeat and declaring SMTFUTF8 a failure without a way to downgrade a non-ASCCI mail address in transit, I had a look at what current MUAs do right now. Here is what I've seen so far: Apple Mail: Convert to quoted printable format. Evolution: Convert to quoted printable format. Thunderbird: supports IDNA, but not non-ASCII characters in the local part of the recipient address. Mutt: Send as-is in UTF-8 format. MailMate: Send as-is in UTF-8 format. GMail: supports neither IDNA nor EAI. (This is the webinterface, GMail SMTP servers forward it as-is though) Squirrelmail: supports neither IDNA nor EAI. Alpine: supports neither IDNA nor EAI. Roundcube: supports neither IDNA nor EAI. On the server side I've only checked Postfix. Interestingly enough, if a MUA sends a mail with UTF-8 encodeded recipient, or quotes-printable encoded recipient, the message arrives just fine, and I can even retrieve it with the dovecot IMAP server and Thunderbird IMAP client. So after announcing the √9@3.14π.eu email address, I could see a significant amount of email with users running Apple Mail. For good measure, I also tried to list all possible formats that arrived at my MTA, listed by popularity: 9× <=?utf-8?Q?=E2=88=9A9?=@3.xn--14-nbc.eu> (local part quoted printable, IDNA for domain) 2× <√9@3.xn--14-nbc.eu> (UTF-8 encoded as-is) 0× utf-8-addr-xtext with Embedded Unicode Chars [RFC 6533] 0× <=?utf-8?Q?=E2=88=9A9=403=2E14=CF=80=2Eeu?=> (fully quoted printable) [RFC 6857, as suggested for IMAP/POP] 0× <=?utf-8?b?4oiaOQ==?=@3.xn--14-nbc.eu> (local part BASE64 encoded, IDNA for domain) Interestingly, the behaviour of Apple Mail and Evolution seems most popular, and that is also what is kind of suggested in RFC 6530 sect 8: > [...] message-originating systems SHOULD be prepared to [either ... or] > return the message to the originating user so the message may be > manually downgraded to the traditional form, possibly using encoded > words [RFC2047] in the message headers. Where RFC 2047 defines this quoted printed format. Now I'm a bit confused if such a downgrade is a good or bad thing. From the users perspective it is clearly good. The odd thing seems to be the fact that RFC 6530 sect 8 and RFC 6409 sect 6.5 suggest that downgrading a mail format is good, using out of band information. But RFC 6530, sect 9 clearly states that this should not happen automatically. Now I'm a bit confused as to what a library such as Python's smtplib should do: * allow the user to specify the downgraded recipient address in conjunction with the non-ASCII address, and fail when no such alternative is provided (and basically accepting that no-one will use STMPUTF8, because users won't bother to create a clumsy non-ASCII address in the first place) * use the printed-quotable translation for MTA that do not support SMTPUTF8, so that it arrives in practice. * use the printed-quotable translation for MTA that do not support SMTPUTF8, but provide a way for the user to specify an alternative downgraded recipient address. Similarly, for a MTA 'in transit' such as Postfix: what should be the behaviour here? I'm happy to explain the provided RFCs to the students who took the challenge to drop me an email at the above address, but I was not able to find background information why the WG did choose not to make the system backward compatible, giving rise to the opposition I've come across while implementing the proposed standard. Regards, Freek [1] https://github.com/macfreek/homescripts/blob/master/mail/smtptest.py [2] http://bugs.python.org/issue20084 [3] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.mail.postfix.user/241125 From nobody Wed Apr 23 03:38:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AED1A0323 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 03:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2gdHp1rED5V for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 03:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [80.244.248.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6811A01D1 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 03:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F559FA0078; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:38:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1398249491-29782-29782/11/1; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:38:11 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Freek Dijkstra Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:38:10 +0200 User-Agent: Trojita/v0.3.96-176-g713fcbb; Qt/4.8.4; X11; Linux; Ubuntu 13.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <8241f884-3f30-42f6-9100-f428923ef445@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/FIHC8-uFqK8mOkArcC5g-VTXKOw Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:38:21 -0000 On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:14:07 PM CEST, Freek Dijkstra wrote: > What's the best way for a library to support EAI for the recipient=20 address? IMO, to support sending mail to both EAI addresses and to ASCII addresses= . That's two disjoint sets of addresses. There could be a g=C3=BCnther@exam= ple.org=20 to match guenther@example.org, but the G=C3=BCnthers of this world don't = seem=20 eager to do that. The people who really want EAI are the ones who don't=20 have a natural and easy ASCII transcription. So, EAI doesn't say that an ASCII address has to accompany each non-ASCII= =20 address. If you create and use =E0=A4=89=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=B9=E0=A4= =B0=E0=A4=A3@=E0=A4=89=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=B9=E0=A4=B0=E0=A4=A3.in, = you're not going to be=20 able to send mail to guenther@example.org, and he may or may not be able = to=20 send to you. But on the other hand, you don't have to decide whether = =E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=BE is=20 transcribed with one a or two. Arnt From nobody Wed Apr 23 12:08:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759FE1A048A for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:08:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b7mweucru5X0 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0205.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.205]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AAF1A0429 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.142.21) by BY2PR03MB490.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.142.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.921.12; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:08:10 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.142.21]) by BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.142.21]) with mapi id 15.00.0921.000; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:08:10 +0000 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Downgrading an EAI Thread-Index: Ac9fJqLwxZwVAmIkTOeirvkvbMmMSQ== Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:08:09 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:ee31::2] x-forefront-prvs: 01901B3451 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(199002)(189002)(15202345003)(74662001)(87936001)(2656002)(17760045001)(33646001)(79102001)(92566001)(86612001)(31966008)(77982001)(81342001)(81542001)(74502001)(16236675002)(20776003)(99936001)(50986999)(46102001)(86362001)(76576001)(80976001)(76482001)(54356999)(99396002)(77096999)(19580395003)(83322001)(19580405001)(99286001)(19300405004)(80022001)(85852003)(4396001)(18206015023)(15975445006)(83072002)(3826001)(24736002); 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Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:29:25 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: Freek Dijkstra In-Reply-To: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> (Freek Dijkstra's message of "Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:14:07 +0200") References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2014 James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6; url=https://jhcloos.com/public_key/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:29:25 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Hashcash: 1:30:140423:freek.dijkstra@surfsara.nl::kdZBBJpweag2FCog:00000000000000000000000000000000009pI4D X-Hashcash: 1:30:140423:ima@ietf.org::PJGqYk4V6/A/rBSR:0000XViJ9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/avdsEtASa_v_MNGlkBzVYL19yj4 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:52:12 -0700 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:32:04 -0000 >>>>> "FD" == Freek Dijkstra writes: FD> Interestingly, the behaviour of Apple Mail and Evolution seems most FD> popular, and that is also what is kind of suggested in RFC 6530 sect 8: I'd go that route (use utf8+qp) if I were writing the application. I'd support utf8+b64 on the receiving end, but prefer qp when sending. -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 From nobody Wed Apr 23 16:58:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B951A076A for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:58:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.272 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.272 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9d5Dppc6mVag for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp.cnnic.cn [218.241.118.7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A2DC1A0765 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown127.0.0.1 (HELO healthyao-think) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:58:24 +0800 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:58:25 +0800 From: "Jiankang Yao" To: "Shawn Steele" , ima References: X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.92[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2014042407572182549462@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_001_NextPart577832066200_=----" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/gvz2RQx3MAdfGDIS-lYIvRSXjD4 Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: yaojk List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 23:58:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart577832066200_=---- Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_002_NextPart514676673063_=----" ------=_002_NextPart514676673063_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpTb21lIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBoYXZlIGFscmVhZHkgc3VwcG9ydGVkIHRoYXQgbm9uLWFz Y2lpYyBtYWlsYm94IGFuZCBhc2NpaSBib3ggcG9pbnQgdG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgbWFpbGJveC4NCg0K SSB0aGluayB0aGF0IGl0IGlzIGdvb2Qgd2F5LiBNeSBFbmdsaXNoIG5hbWUgYW5kIENoaW5lc2Ug bmFtZSBib3RoIHBvaW50IHRvIG1lLg0KDQoNCg0KDQpKaWFua2FuZyBZYW8NCg0KRnJvbTogU2hh d24gU3RlZWxlDQpEYXRlOiAyMDE0LTA0LTI0IDAzOjA4DQpUbzogaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJq ZWN0OiBSZTogW0VBSV0gRG93bmdyYWRpbmcgYW4gRUFJDQpJdCdzICJieSBkZXNpZ24iIHRoYXQg RUFJIGRvZXNuJ3QgaGF2ZSBhIHdheSB0byBlbmNvZGUgaXQgYSBVbmljb2RlIGFkZHJlc3MgaW4g bm9uLVVuaWNvZGUgZm9ybS4gIFllcywgbWFueSBtYWlsIGNsaWVudHMgZG9uJ3QgeWV0IHN1cHBv cnQgRUFJLiAoc2xvd2x5IGdldHRpbmcgdGhlcmUgdGhvdWdoKS4NCiANCkJlc3QgcHJhY3RpY2Ug aXMgdG8gY3VycmVudGx5IHJlc2VuZCB3aXRoIGEga25vd24gZ29vZCBBU0NJSSBhZGRyZXNzLiAg SG93ZXZlciBub3RlIHRoYXQgYm90aCB0aGUgVW5pY29kZSBhZGRyZXNzZXMgYW5kIEFTQ0lJIGFk ZHJlc3NlcyBhcmUgZXhwZWN0ZWQgdG8gYmUgInJlYWRhYmxlIiAoZm9yIHNvbWUgZGVmaW5pdGlv bnMgb2YgcmVhZGFibGUpLg0KIA0K76Oi76OQ76On76ObQG1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb20gYW5kIHNoYXdu c3RlQG1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb20gY291bGQgYm90aCBwb2ludCB0byB0aGUgc2FtZSBtYWlsYm94Lg0K IA0KKCkgZm9yIHRob3NlIG9mIHlvdSB0aGF0IGRvbuKAmXQgaGF2ZSBhIEtsaW5nb24gZm9udC4g IEkgY2Fu4oCZdCB3YWl0IGZvciB0aGUgSVQgZm9sa3MgdG8gbGV0IG1lIGhhdmUgYSBLbGluZ29u IGFsaWFzIDstKQ0KIA0KLVNoYXduDQog ------=_002_NextPart514676673063_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
 
Some implementations have already supp= orted=20 that non-asciic mailbox and ascii box point to the same mailbox.
 
I think that it is good way. My Englis= h name=20 and Chinese name both point to me.
 
Jiankang Yao
 
Date: 2014-04-24 03:08
To: ima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI

It's "by design" that EAI doesn't have a way to en= code it=20 a Unicode address in non-Unicode form.  Yes, many mail clients don't = yet=20 support EAI. (slowly getting there though).

 

Best practice is to currently resend with a known = good=20 ASCII address.  However note that both the Unicode addresses and ASCI= I=20 addresses are expected to be "readable" (for some definitions of=20 readable).

 

=EF=A3=A2=EF=A3=90=EF=A3=A7=EF=A3=9B@microsoft.com= and shawnste@microsoft.com could both=20 point to the same mailbox.

 

()=20 for those of you that don=E2=80=99t have a Klingon font.  I can=E2=80= =99t wait for the IT=20 folks to let me have a Klingon alias ;-)

 

-Shawn

 

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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475401A0768 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XYBs_3cMeSkq for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2lp0239.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.239]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BA61A0763 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.142.21) by BY2PR03MB489.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.142.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.921.12; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00191A02F7 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltY-vnR7QL59 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp.cnnic.cn [218.241.118.7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B94831A00EC for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown127.0.0.1 (HELO healthyao-think) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:37:23 +0800 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:37:24 +0800 From: "Jiankang Yao" To: "Shawn Steele" , ima , "Freek.Dijkstra@surfsara.nl" References: <2014042407572182549462@cnnic.cn>, <769f860fe29742f9a3a995328d47d91b@BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.0.1.92[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2014042410371979442669@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_001_NextPart263538378107_=----" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/qsievGUdqTNQTFs0QXAKHMzz8k0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: yaojk List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 02:37:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart263538378107_=---- Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_002_NextPart861013064317_=----" ------=_002_NextPart861013064317_=---- 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Microsoft's outlook has a lot of users= .
You can have more powerful voice about= how to=20 design the client.
EAI is waiting for the outlook since s= ome=20 servers have implemented EAI.
:)
 
Jiankang Yao
 
Date: 2014-04-24 08:02
To: yaojk; ima; Freek.Dijkstra@surfsara.nl<= /DIV>
Subject: RE: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI

Since it started as a = class=20 problem, how about this for the class assignment?

 

Design a system where the mail client correlates = the=20 contacts ASCII and UTF-8 addresses so that when the sender gets an NDR bec= ause=20 something didn=E2=80=99t know about SMTPUTF8, the client knows how to rese= nd it to the=20 ASCII address ;-)

 

-Shawn

 

From: Jiankang Yao [mailto:yaojk@cnnic.cn]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 4:58 PM
To: Shawn Ste= ele;=20 ima
Subject: Re: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an=20 EAI

 

 =

Some=20 implementations have already supported that non-asciic mailbox and ascii b= ox=20 point to the same mailbox.

 =

I think tha= t it is=20 good way. My English name and Chinese name both point to=20 me.

 

Jiankang=20 Yao

 

From: Shawn=20 Steele

Date: 2014-04-24 03:08

To: ima@ietf.org

Subject: Re:=20 [EAI] Downgrading an EAI

It's "by design" that EAI doesn't have a way to en= code it=20 a Unicode address in non-Unicode form.  Yes, many mail clients don't = yet=20 support EAI. (slowly getting there though).

 

Best practice is to currently resend with a known = good=20 ASCII address.  However note that both the Unicode addresses and ASCI= I=20 addresses are expected to be "readable" (for some definitions of=20 readable).

 

=EF=A3=A2=EF=A3=90=EF=A3=A7=EF=A3=9B@microsoft.com=20 and shawnste@microsoft.com c= ould=20 both point to the same mailbox.

 

()=20 for those of you that don=E2=80=99t have a Klingon font.  I can=E2=80= =99t wait for the IT=20 folks to let me have a Klingon alias ;-)

 

-Shawn

 

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If you are planning to write E-mail client (Mail user agent), please read draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-01 and comment it. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-01 If it is useful for implementors, we will restart it as individual submission. > Of course, the question came up how to handle MTAs that do not support > the SMTPUTF8 extension. According to RFC 6530 sect 8, the proper way is > to "return the message to the originating user so the message may be > manually downgraded to the traditional form" (e.g. try again with an > ASCII address). > > We interpreted that we should modify the smtplib.sendmail() method to > both take a UTF-8 encoded mail address as well as a related ASCII mail > address for the to_address. This seemed clumsy to us: when a user has to > specify a ASCII variant in the first place, what would be the value of > adding another UTF-8 variant? In my opinion, the library should take one email address (UTF-8 or ASCII only). If the library detects errors, it returns errors. E-mail clients need to detect errors and inform the errors to users. Then, users need to change configurations. (UTF-8 address to ASCII only) > So I asked how a MTA like Postfix handled the situation [3] and got a > response that it will not be supported unless SMTPUTF8 provides a path > for gradual migration, and without an option for a SMPTUTF8-capable MTA > to forward email with an SMPTUTF8 sender address to a non-SMPTUTF8 MTA, > that SMTPUTF8 will fail. See section 3.2 of RFC 6531. it SHOULD reject the message. As usual, this can be done either by generating an appropriate reply during the SMTP transaction or by accepting the message and then generating and transmitting a non-delivery notification. > Rather than admitting defeat and declaring SMTFUTF8 a failure without a > way to downgrade a non-ASCCI mail address in transit, I had a look at > what current MUAs do right now. 'downgrade' was rejected. -- Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS From nobody Thu Apr 24 05:11:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40BD1A01B7 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 05:11:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nH5EwPzFA2hF for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 05:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A9C1A01AC for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 05:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1WdIUb-000PBv-Do; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:11:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:11:00 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: James Cloos , Freek Dijkstra Message-ID: <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.115 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: klensin@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/q1oFdz5qOzx4V9fFLhxGOop7G6k Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:11:26 -0000 --On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 14:29 -0400 James Cloos wrote: > FD> Interestingly, the behaviour of Apple Mail and Evolution > seems most FD> popular, and that is also what is kind of > suggested in RFC 6530 sect 8: >=20 > I'd go that route (use utf8+qp) if I were writing the > application. >=20 > I'd support utf8+b64 on the receiving end, but prefer qp when > sending. Fascinating. First, I think it would be reasonable to summarize 20+ years of experience with Quoted-Printable as "works ok for strings and blocks of text that are predominately ASCII or at least [extended] Latin script; not much better than Base64 or Hex encoding for anything else (and sometimes worse)". Second, remember that, unlike IDNA A-labels, where we had lots of reason to believe that it was reasonable to assume that anything starting in "xn--" could safely be interpreted as such a label (or invalid), random strings of characters from the Base64 character set have been valid as local parts, with no decoding implications, since about the time intersystem email appeared on ARPANET hosts. For email local parts, this is all about aliasing. If you want to create a local alias that connects a non-ASCII string with what you think of as its Base64 or Q-P mapping, or a traditional hex mapping (with or without "%d" or "0x"), or what you think of as a translation into some other language or script, go for it. That has always been possible and orderly and the EAI work just expands the possible options a bit. =20 The problems arise (and always have) if the sending side --or, worse, an intermediary system-- tries to guess at what aliases are present. Such guessing is likely to yield negative results (and hence bounces or message rejection). Algorithmic guesses are less likely, but still plausible, to yield false positives and deliver to the wrong address. Again, nothing new here. If some system looks at "James Cloos " and guesses that mail could be sent to jimmy@jhcloos.com, =D0=94=D0=B6=D0=B5=D0=B9=D0=BC=D1=81@jhcloos.com, or = 0JTQttC10LnQvNGB@jhcloos.com because it knows something about the sometime relationship between "James" and "Jimmy", = "=D0=94=D0=B6=D0=B5=D0=B9=D0=BC=D1=81", or something about Base64 , there should be no expectation of accurate delivery even thought the operator of the delivery server for "jhcloos.com" might choose to make one or more of those work. What concerns me about "just map to Q-P" or "just map to Base64" is that, while a user getting some form of a "UTF-8 in addresses or headers not supported here" message is not desirable, it is at least clear and accurate. If the sending MUA or intermediary looks at a non-ASCII UTF-8 string and automatically converts it to some ASCII-compatible encoding and the message is then rejected as undeliverable, the sender has just been convinced that email with non-ASCII addresses is unpredictable -- an especially bad message if the original, non-ASCII address really could have been delivered-- and that sets all of us back. Just my opinion, of course, john From nobody Thu Apr 24 09:40:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F31A02B5 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.272, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2RRWMTjcW1l for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ore.jhcloos.com (ore.jhcloos.com [IPv6:2604:2880::b24d:a297]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1527F1A01E1 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ore.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id 5A9921E32E; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:40:21 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=ore14; t=1398357621; bh=3eJ5m9oZCzhBT+tWzfaIShPsxznbsUjQT13FV7Y0GbI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=fZV+fbv8iiDbCdy7ouEM9q248lLh1BaWtgMHhZtIADh4gok15P9ukvmSRY+Jswgk4 o8iNmhR5TbTWwVWSzklWngrtaMneg9XfIMeN8/yKHZ2XDtysL+AjpoHBOYKuvMZ2mH 9ZnaLl0Fg2aI1AZEqn0DzKDTelcjV2R754hqOzOw= Received: by carbon.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 2465860023; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:38:43 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> (John C. Klensin's message of "Thu, 24 Apr 2014 08:11:00 -0400") References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2014 James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6; url=https://jhcloos.com/public_key/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:38:43 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Hashcash: 1:30:140424:ima@ietf.org::tCbbEkpm4Uw9KmBv:0000CaILo X-Hashcash: 1:30:140424:klensin@jck.com::HtZ0LrPlK7YYvOLf:04ubya X-Hashcash: 1:30:140424:freek.dijkstra@surfsara.nl::QL0xc7Dy71i95RLX:00000000000000000000000000000000008ogY8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/fO_j1F28o96BmqJb6t0IeIljA08 Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:40:32 -0000 >>>>> "JK" == John C Klensin writes: JK> Quoted-Printable as "works ok for strings and blocks of text that JK> are predominately ASCII or at least [extended] Latin script; You're right. I was thinking of euro names when I wrote that. In retrospect, I'd send qp where that makes sense else b64. JK> For email local parts, this is all about aliasing. I tried a test before sending, but further testing today shows that I misread the results. Dumb. It delivered due to a local catchall rule (avoiding that domain's normal processing) and the qp was converted *after* the mta, rather than *by* as I had presumed. So we need to patch MTAs to decode qp and b64 when comparing addresses against permission and routing databases. That probably is needed even without utf8, for security and robustness. Which may be as hard as getting SMTPUTF8 support. ☹ (Obviously those conversions must be done in a manner which avoids any new attacks, such as SQL-injection or the like.) -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 From nobody Thu Apr 24 15:14:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709851A03F8 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:14:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggD_sjyGIM4u for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0212.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.212]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D40C1A03EF for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.142.21) by BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.142.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.921.12; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:13:51 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.142.21]) by BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.142.21]) with mapi id 15.00.0921.000; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:13:51 +0000 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Downgrading an EAI Thread-Index: Ac9gCjg9qYKCvp6LQNidmvReb52gKQ== Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:13:51 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e0:ed43::2] x-forefront-prvs: 01917B1794 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(189002)(199002)(76482001)(80022001)(83072002)(76576001)(74316001)(83322001)(20776003)(85852003)(74662001)(86612001)(31966008)(92566001)(74502001)(33646001)(87936001)(50986999)(81542001)(558084003)(99286001)(4396001)(99396002)(77982001)(80976001)(46102001)(81342001)(86362001)(79102001)(54356999)(77096999)(2656002)(24736002)(3826001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB491; H:BY2PR03MB491.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:3EB2D915.1C47C631.2F4ED2F.54EC5FB0.200C0; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/KQSLtMPY8oCV7c2rLGjZTFSugQ0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:14:12 -0000 Downgrading isn't permitted by design, but would the intent of QP or base64= to encode the UTF-8? I'd fear other code pages would be used, which would= cause the existing code page differences confusion to be even worse. (If = people enabled internationalization of email with QP or base64)? -Shawn From nobody Sun Apr 27 07:54:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251F71A064B for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 07:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hjSAeF4SUKU for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8841A04C1 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1WeQTV-0004T9-F8; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:54:37 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:54:32 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: James Cloos , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <09CD5680D077283CE2CD3388@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.115 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: klensin@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/zpAX86S_561mOzhZWk5lDL7wBfo Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:54:41 -0000 --On Thursday, April 24, 2014 12:38 -0400 James Cloos wrote: >>>>>> "JK" =3D=3D John C Klensin writes: >=20 > JK> Quoted-Printable as "works ok for strings and blocks of > text that JK> are predominately ASCII or at least [extended] > Latin script; >=20 > You're right. I was thinking of euro names when I wrote that. >=20 > In retrospect, I'd send qp where that makes sense else b64. "Makes sense" turns out to be a little subjective. If all characters are in (estended) Latin script and most words or names (including those in strings turned into local parts by catenation or abbreviation) contain only ASCII characters with those that contain non-ASCII ones typically containing only a single one, then Q-P is pretty reasonable, in part because one can usually guess when was intended even without decoding. Those conditions are common for Western European languages and names. I would suggest that thinking mostly about them was what brought us Q-P in the first place. By contrast, if one has a local part in even such a closely-related script as Greek or Cyrillic, Q-P makes quite a mess... and is typically less compact and no easier to decode than Base64 or even HTML-like %-encoding. > JK> For email local parts, this is all about aliasing. >=20 > I tried a test before sending, but further testing today shows > that I misread the results. Dumb. >=20 > It delivered due to a local catchall rule (avoiding that > domain's normal processing) and the qp was converted *after* > the mta, rather than *by* as I had presumed. >=20 > So we need to patch MTAs to decode qp and b64 when comparing > addresses against permission and routing databases. That > probably is needed even without utf8, for security and > robustness. Which may be as hard as getting SMTPUTF8 support. > =E2=98=B9 >=20 > (Obviously those conversions must be done in a manner which > avoids any new attacks, such as SQL-injection or the like.) It is a matter of taste, but I suggest that patching MTAs, even final delivery MTAs, is a bad idea. If you want Q-P or B64 encodings to "work" in local-parts, do it in aliases. Remember that, if non-ASCII characters appear in a backward-pointing field in UTF-8 and you convert them to some other encoding form, there is no guarantee at all that the differently-encoded form will be recognized by the originator if it shows up in a reply. Your outgoing submission server/ MTA could try to undo the conversion but then you face a tricky heuristic problem. The same sorts of "tricky string" issues that make for good phishing attacks, including mixed script and oddly-appearing strings, are good protections (even if somewhat security-by-obscurity) against dictionary or algorithm based spamming of addresses. For example making the pre-subaddress local part of your address "=D1=81l=D0=BEos" (first and third characters are U+0441 and = U+043E respectively), you would probably see less random spam than you do with "cloos". Similar comments would apply, probably even more strongly given dictionaries, if you used "j=D0=B0m=D0=B5s" = (U+0430 and U+0435 in the second and fourth positions) instead of "james" in a local-part. Similar comments apply to Q-P look-alikes. Sticking "=3D20" or, for that matter, "=3D7F" or even "=3DFF" in the middle of a = string would be pretty good protection against dictionary attacks. For the people who believe that "foobar at example.com" is effective at preventing address harvesting relative to "foobar@example.com", then "foo=3DNNbar@example.com" or ""foo=3DNNbar at example.com" should be lots more effective, = with "NN" being two random hex digits and a filter in the delivery MTA that simply removes all three-character sequences starting in "=3D". Those approaches are as reasonable and legitimate as treating such strings as Q-P and encoding or decoding them to UTF-8 (or some other charset) -- the problem is that a receiving system just can't tell. So, again, if you want Q-P or B64 aliases for your incoming non-ASCII local part, go for it. But, at least IMO, you are far better off treating them as local aliases than trying to do the conversions algorithmically. john From nobody Sun Apr 27 08:21:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E353C1A0675 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:20:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSgrlZHMmqRu for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ore.jhcloos.com (ore.jhcloos.com [IPv6:2604:2880::b24d:a297]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEC61A0651 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ore.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id 210DA1DD19; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:20:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=ore14; t=1398612057; bh=SyeR26/S1JAYjvPDqt6njgeFzGrmDHbTxRXe9pfS7Mg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=V+Zqqn1MRHN0+k0f+PWY/N00eO8Y3Gx4OoSt4sacfINO8WBzy2hdpWF5FOoln2ZCc v0POyGqFcWGrjkWMUJ/lBiG7tsZlvg0wC+0GIjH9iMKm2+8IZEbxAAZhpPI/c+6/8P B0nNYgng11JdvRFX9DFCon/LoB3DxD09DU8kp+4Q= Received: by carbon.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id EDBCB60028; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:12:36 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: John C Klensin In-Reply-To: <09CD5680D077283CE2CD3388@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> (John C. Klensin's message of "Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:54:32 -0400") References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <09CD5680D077283CE2CD3388@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2014 James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6; url=https://jhcloos.com/public_key/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:12:36 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Hashcash: 1:30:140427:klensin@jck.com::+EvdstSTgjmorUQ8:08PJ9v X-Hashcash: 1:30:140427:cloos+ietf-ima@jhcloos.com::3n5yuF76HZ6GWJNH:0000000000000000000000000000000000IGlyK X-Hashcash: 1:30:140427:ima@ietf.org::ZfJVPtVEVzB0vfw1:00007nL2S X-Hashcash: 1:30:140427:freek.dijkstra@surfsara.nl::wpCUzptxfFxv01Gr:0000000000000000000000000000000000ALPf1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/yVyIYaYqaFMI-0VQDBX9MFjZL0Q Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:21:00 -0000 >>>>> "JK" == John C Klensin writes: >> In retrospect, I'd send qp where that makes sense else b64. JK> "Makes sense" turns out to be a little subjective. Indeed. I suspect less than four or five non-ascii characters. Or, more likely, less than ten or so percent of the string. I won't know for sure what I'd choose without testing; visual appearance would be the most important issue. But it is a moot point unless we could get MTAs to decode them when routing mail. And since the working group chose not to support qp or b64 that may not be possible. I wouldn't have replied at all had my test not been compromized. (Cf my earlier retraction.) -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 From nobody Sun Apr 27 08:22:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495351A0690 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:22:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sc1mKO8tj9SO for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ore.jhcloos.com (ore.jhcloos.com [IPv6:2604:2880::b24d:a297]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422A71A067E for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ore.jhcloos.com (Postfix, from userid 10) id 3916A1DEE9; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:22:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jhcloos.com; s=ore14; t=1398612177; bh=SyeR26/S1JAYjvPDqt6njgeFzGrmDHbTxRXe9pfS7Mg=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=BCsCY5naFQLkjbzqrbXUYYP+BS90shmS3v+DU+3r6GOIemlw7uTUBzLhKn+XWoC9x 4EUN5YaGmooFh4ez7+kNVFNY0hMhm00W+BLBuxJog+tOZCzs1YFiP6oa0I6tkUq39b CSYHC6r9Si2ejAxd6k4M0QI6pc1bmx1mUP2C/Pyw= Received: by carbon.jhcloos.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 3DC9560028; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:20:56 +0000 (UTC) From: James Cloos To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <09CD5680D077283CE2CD3388@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> (John C. Klensin's message of "Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:54:32 -0400") References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <09CD5680D077283CE2CD3388@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQAgMAAABinRfyAAAACVBMVEX///8ZGXBQKKnCrDQ3 AAAAJElEQVQImWNgQAAXzwQg4SKASgAlXIEEiwsSIYBEcLaAtMEAADJnB+kKcKioAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC Copyright: Copyright 2014 James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6; url=https://jhcloos.com/public_key/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc OpenPGP-Fingerprint: E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:20:56 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Hashcash: 1:30:140427:ima@ietf.org::GJxP9lxzUXzwiFqP:0000X1/op Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/kARjqEXUs94wvu_AJtVKyqgxJHk Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:22:58 -0000 >>>>> "JK" == John C Klensin writes: >> In retrospect, I'd send qp where that makes sense else b64. JK> "Makes sense" turns out to be a little subjective. Indeed. I suspect less than four or five non-ascii characters. Or, more likely, less than ten or so percent of the string. I won't know for sure what I'd choose without testing; visual appearance would be the most important issue. But it is a moot point unless we could get MTAs to decode them when routing mail. And since the working group chose not to support qp or b64 that may not be possible. I wouldn't have replied at all had my test not been compromized. (Cf my earlier retraction.) -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 From nobody Sun Apr 27 11:09:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA7E1A0636 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:09:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id exPvR41jfmX6 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ADD1A04F6 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1WeTW0-0004fD-6d; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:09:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:09:19 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: James Cloos Message-ID: <1641AE5598D34C74F2D2F4E2@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5356CD8F.6060605@surfsara.nl> <72F04D994E2F33CF9DE5162D@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <09CD5680D077283CE2CD3388@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.115 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: klensin@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ima/HtyWC0M9c2I7Vc4sbzL8iWZ7tZ0 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrading an EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 18:09:28 -0000 --On Sunday, April 27, 2014 11:12 -0400 James Cloos wrote: >... > But it is a moot point unless we could get MTAs to decode them > when routing mail. And since the working group chose not to > support qp or b64 that may not be possible. My explanation and examples aren't intended to represent or analyze WG consensus, but should give you some idea of at least one of the reasons why the WG decided to not do that. Another, as you and others pointed out earlier, is that simply supporting UTF-8 addresses and headers may be no more difficult (and possibly even less so) than fussing with problem-prone conversion approaches. john