From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 1 04:22:59 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05174 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 04:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i917oG8K004999 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:50:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i917oFQU004998 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:50:16 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [10.0.1.53] (maxp17.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.7.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i917musT004950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:49:02 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.0.0.040405 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 08:49:18 +0100 Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt From: Gorry Fairhurst To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP over DVB Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Framework for transmission of IP datagrams over MPEG-2 Networks Author(s) : M. Montpetit, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Pages : 39 Date : 2004-9-30 This document describes an architecture for the transport of IP Datagrams over ISO MPEG-2 Transport Streams (TS). The MPEG-2 TS has been widely accepted not only for providing digital TV services, but also as a subnetwork technology for building IP networks. Examples of systems using MPEG-2 include the Digital Video Broadcast (DVB) and Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) Standards for Digital Television. The document identifies the need for a set of Internet standards defining the interface between the MPEG-2 Transport Stream and an IP subnetwork. It suggests a new encapsulation method for IP datagrams and proposes protocols to perform IPv6/IPv4 address resolution, to associate IP packets with the properties of the Logical Channels provided by an MPEG-2 TS. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request at ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv at ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce at ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 1 04:23:32 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05214 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 04:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i917u9bH005153 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:56:09 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i917u91P005152 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:56:09 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [10.0.1.53] (maxp17.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.7.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i917t0m7005114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:55:03 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.0.0.040405 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 08:55:18 +0100 Subject: Re: IETF-61 Preparations (November 7-12, 2004) From: Gorry Fairhurst To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <098001c4a723$12a2a740$ad02a8c0@copernicus> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yikes time is running out - You have to publish the document as an individual draft I need to do a WG Call to adopt, I can give my blessing, on the basis of the charter and then assuming the call to adopt goes OK, you can submit as a WG draft. On 30/9/04 8:23 pm, "Marie-Jose Montpetit" wrote: > Does that mean that if I submit AR next week it could become a WG document? > > Marie-Jose > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gorry Fairhurst" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:58 PM > Subject: IETF-61 Preparations (November 7-12, 2004) > > >> >> Please note that all WG participants are invited to the next IETF >> meeting to be held in Washington DC. Details of the meeting and >> hotel/meeting regsitration information may be found at: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-61.html >> >> >> The ipdvb WG is scheduled to meet during this IETF meeting and has been >> allocated a 2 hour slot within the Agenda (NOTE: the timing of >> individual WG meetings is provisional at this stage). >> >> Some important dates for prospective Internet Draft authors are: >> >> October 11, Monday >> - WG Chair approval for initial WG document (Version -00) submission >> >> October 18, Monday >> - Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00) submission >> >> October 25, Monday - Internet Draft final submission cut-off >> >> October 27, Wednesday - Pre-Registration and Pre-payment cut-off >> >> November 1, Monday - Working Group agendas due >> >> November 7-12, 2004 - 61st IETF Meeting in Washington, DC, USA >> >> >> Could anyone who wishes to submit an ID which may be of interest to the >> ipdvb community please tell me as soon as possible! >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Gorry Fairhurst >> ipdvb WG Chair >> >> > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 4 13:24:18 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25410 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 13:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i94GfNsY024369 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:41:23 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i94GfNBp024368 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:41:23 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i94Ge7bS024328 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:40:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from copernicus ([141.149.180.247]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041004164005.XGUQ24594.out001.verizon.net@copernicus> for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:40:05 -0500 Message-ID: <00d301c4aa30$e060d110$ad02a8c0@copernicus> From: "Marie-Jose Montpetit" To: Subject: Use of XML for MPEG Network config Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:40:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C4AA0F.5552AF10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [141.149.180.247] at Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:39:59 -0500 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C4AA0F.5552AF10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List: I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML = for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a = larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D = activities. The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the = WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set = of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via = the web - a subscriber service - on demand service We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated = transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not = probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP = mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. Thanks Marie-Jose ------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C4AA0F.5552AF10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List:
 
I am putting together a short draft for = the next=20 IETF on the use of XML for MPEG network configuration. This is part of = the=20 extension work of a larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my = other=20 R&D activities.
 
The poster child right now is address = resolution as=20 this is part of the WG charter, but I can see this approach as = being useful=20 for a larger set of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of=20 services:
- a static version based on local = configuration=20 that can be accessed via the web
- a subscriber service
- on demand service
We expect to be able to use the same = semantics and=20 have investigated transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. = I know=20 we are not probably the only people on the list thinking about this as = the above=20 IP mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right = now.
 
I welcome comments or real life = implementations of=20 this.
 
Thanks
 
Marie-Jose
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C4AA0F.5552AF10-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Tue Oct 5 11:06:36 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06033 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i95EUWqv018503 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:30:32 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i95EUWhw018502 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:30:32 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nando.org (adsl-068-213-247-068.sip.mia.bellsouth.net [68.213.247.68]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i95ESH2E018414 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:28:18 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 10:26:01 -0500 To: "Ip-dvb" From: "Clausen" Subject: Re: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--------avrpswqgqtdvhgniokoq" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-SpamScore: ssss X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ----------avrpswqgqtdvhgniokoq Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The snake


:)

----------avrpswqgqtdvhgniokoq Content-Type: image/bmp; name="oykybxlaye.bmp" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="oykybxlaye.bmp" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Qk0+BwAAAAAAADYAAAAoAAAAPAAAAA8AAAABABAAAAAAAAgHAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAA/3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/XwhfCF8IXwhfCF8I XwhfCF8IXwhfCF8IXwhfCF8IXwhfCF8IXwhfCF8IXwhfCF8IXwhfCF8IXwhf CF8IXwhfCF8IXwhfCP9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9/fy1fCN97/3//f/9/n1JfCN85X2v/f/9/33tfSl8Iv1b/f/9/ /3+/d985Xwi/Vv9//3//f/9//39/LV8I33v/f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/X0pfCJ9z /3//f79WXwifcx9jXwifc/9/n1JfCL933zmfUv9//38fQl8IX2tfCL9W/3// f/9//39fSl8In3P/f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/fy1fCF8IXwhfCF8IH0L/f38tXwj/f997Xwif Uv9/XwhfCP9/31pfCL93/39fCF8I/39fCH8t/39/LV8IXwhfCF8IXwgfQv9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9/n1JfCJ9zX2tfCJ9S/3//f18IXwj/f/9/XwhfCP9/XwhfCP9/X2tfCN9a /3/fOV8I/39fCF8I/3+fUl8In3Nfa18In1L/f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/33t/Ld85v3dfCB9C /3//f18IXwh/b/9/XwhfCP9/XwhfCP9/n3NfCF9K/39fa18IX2tfCB9C/3/f e38t3zm/d18IH0L/f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//39/b18IP2dfCF8I/3//f985XwhfSp9zXwif Uv9/X0pfCJ9z33tfCF8I/3//f39vXwhfCN9a/3//f39vXwg/Z18IXwj/f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f99afy3fOV8In3P/f79WXwifUn8tX0rfe/9/H2NfCF9r/39fCF8I /3//f19KXwifc18I31r/f/9/31p/Ld85Xwifc/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/H0JfCF8I X2v/f39vXwgfY/9//3//f/9/33tfCN9a/39fCF8I/3//f18IXwj/f18IXwj/ f/9//38fQl8IXwhfa/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/v3d/LV8IH2P/f/9/X0rfOd97Xwjf Of9//3+/Vt85v3dfCJ9S/3//f19KXwifc18I3zn/f/9//3+/d38tXwgfY/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//39fa18IX0r/f/9//3+fUl8Ify1fa/9//3//f79WXwhfSt97 /3//f/9/X0pfCN85v3f/f/9//3//f19rXwhfSv9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9/ /3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3//f/9//3// f/9//3//f/9/ ----------avrpswqgqtdvhgniokoq Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Dog.zip" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Dog.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ----------avrpswqgqtdvhgniokoq-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 08:04:02 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16176 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96BRrOu012300 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:27:53 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96BRrih012299 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:27:53 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96BQcK8012260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:26:40 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4163D66F.6050107@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:26:39 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config References: <00d301c4aa30$e060d110$ad02a8c0@copernicus> In-Reply-To: <00d301c4aa30$e060d110$ad02a8c0@copernicus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses to PIDs. Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to MPEG-2 transmission networks? Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! Gorry Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > List: > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > the web > - a subscriber service > - on demand service > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > Thanks > > Marie-Jose > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 09:16:49 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA22604 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96CGHxc013521 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:16:17 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96CGHNr013520 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:16:17 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (imh.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.4]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96CEUfV013458 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:14:31 +0100 (BST) Received: (from jo@localhost) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.12.11/8.12.11) id i96CEQdP028046; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:14:26 +0200 (MEST) From: Joerg Ott Message-Id: <200410061214.i96CEQdP028046@informatik.uni-bremen.de> Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:14:26 +0200 (MEST) Cc: jo@Informatik.Uni-Bremen.DE (Joerg Ott) In-Reply-To: <4163D66F.6050107@erg.abdn.ac.uk> from "Gorry Fairhurst" at Oct 06, 2004 12:26:39 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding XML, it would be great if we could first formulate the problem and then figure out whether XML is an adequate solution. That said, there is some work ongoing in the IETF that could be relevant here (that actually uses XML): the NETCONF WG http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/netconf-charter.html. I haven't followed the work in the Ops area that much though. Joerg > I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and > this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for > setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and > also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore > alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses > to PIDs. > > Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any > existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to > MPEG-2 transmission networks? > > Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! > > Gorry > > Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > > > List: > > > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > > the web > > - a subscriber service > > - on demand service > > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marie-Jose > > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 10:35:51 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02562 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96DseSH015729 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:54:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96Dse7S015728 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:54:40 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nab.org (foxtrot.nab.org [209.116.240.194]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96DrrAN015689 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:53:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from ([199.29.3.1]) by maildc2.nab.org with ESMTP id 4028857.2309380; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:53:14 -0400 Received: by mail.NAB.ORG with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:53:14 -0400 Message-ID: <5A659834E1607E4EBD72FCE2FE5C9CF108EDC578@mail.NAB.ORG> From: "Allison, Art" To: "'ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk'" Cc: "Jones, Graham" , "Mark Richer (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Use of XML for MPEG Network config Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:53:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Gorry The ATSC has developed a XML-based standard for use in managing the System Information for MPEG2 transports. The initial release is focused on setting variables of the ATSC Program and System Information Protocol and maintaining consistency with the MPEG2 PAT/PMT structures. It was made available for public comment during the development cycle as document CS/75 http://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate_standards.html and it is now in the formal approval process. Is this the type of document you are seeking? Art ::{)> Arthur W. Allison Director, Science & Technology National Association of Broadcasters 202 429 5418 -----Original Message----- From: Gorry Fairhurst [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:27 AM To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses to PIDs. Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to MPEG-2 transmission networks? Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! Gorry Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > List: > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > the web > - a subscriber service > - on demand service > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > Thanks > > Marie-Jose > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 11:13:33 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05747 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96EojF5017480 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:50:45 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96Eoj24017479 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:50:45 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from GWOUT.thalesgroup.com (gwout.thalesgroup.com [195.101.39.227]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96EnU90017429 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:49:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from thalescan.corp.thales (200.3.2.3) by GWOUT.thalesgroup.com (NPlex 6.5.026) id 4163E92B00002498 for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:52:52 +0200 Received: from lowplex.mut.thales ([10.33.19.4]) by thalescan with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 14:38:56 +0200 Received: from cnfplex.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (178.1.4.1) by lowplex.mut.thales (NPlex 6.5.026) id 415F72CF000B0C87 for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:38:56 +0200 Received: from zethos.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (178.3.2.15) by cnfplex.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (NPlex 6.5.026) id 4160EDF70000400E for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:38:51 +0200 Received: from thales-bm.com (178.3.1.71) by zethos.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (NPlex 6.5.026) id 414111470002272D for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:41:03 +0200 Message-ID: <4163E8E2.FF636661@thales-bm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 14:45:22 +0200 From: Richard Lhermitte Organization: Thales Broadcast & Multimedia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [fr] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config References: <00d301c4aa30$e060d110$ad02a8c0@copernicus> <4163D66F.6050107@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If it's just mapping IP addresses to PIDs, DVB has defined a specific table: INT (IP Notification Table). But this table does not inform about service types, service description and services schedule, but it could be possible to add some specific descriptors to this tables to give additional information about the IP stream contents. It depends on the information you would like to transmit in this “XML” description. Richard Gorry Fairhurst a écrit : > I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and > this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for > setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and > also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore > alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses > to PIDs. > > Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any > existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to > MPEG-2 transmission networks? > > Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! > > Gorry > > Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > > > List: > > > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > > the web > > - a subscriber service > > - on demand service > > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marie-Jose > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 11:19:10 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06112 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96EZO0v017022 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:35:24 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96EZOSA017021 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:35:24 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96EYl5c016991 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:34:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from copernicus ([141.157.185.100]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041006143448.UNLM24464.out005.verizon.net@copernicus>; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:34:48 -0500 Message-ID: <053301c4abb1$a9f4f2a0$ad02a8c0@copernicus> From: "Marie-Jose Montpetit" To: "Allison, Art" Cc: , "Jones, Graham" , "Mark Richer \(E-mail\)" References: <5A659834E1607E4EBD72FCE2FE5C9CF108EDC578@mail.NAB.ORG> Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:34:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [141.157.185.100] at Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:34:20 -0500 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a quick look and yes this is very related to what we are doing. You obviously have done all the schema work for a wider range of configuration parameters. We have focussed on AR and have defined another much shorter list. Are your schemas public? What is the status of the standard? One thing we are also looking at is the distribution of the information. Does ATSC have the intention of standardising on that too? Marie-Jose ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison, Art" To: Cc: "Jones, Graham" <>; "Mark Richer (E-mail)" <> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:53 AM Subject: RE: Use of XML for MPEG Network config > Gorry > The ATSC has developed a XML-based standard for use in managing the System > Information for MPEG2 transports. The initial release is focused on setting > variables of the ATSC Program and System Information Protocol and > maintaining consistency with the MPEG2 PAT/PMT structures. It was made > available for public comment during the development cycle as document CS/75 > http://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate_standards.html > and it is now in the formal approval process. Is this the type of document > you are seeking? > > Art > ::{)> > Arthur W. Allison > Director, Science & Technology > National Association of Broadcasters > 202 429 5418 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gorry Fairhurst [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:27 AM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config > > > > I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and > this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for > setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and > also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore > alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses > to PIDs. > > Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any > existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to > MPEG-2 transmission networks? > > Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! > > Gorry > > Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > > > List: > > > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > > the web > > - a subscriber service > > - on demand service > > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marie-Jose > > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 11:50:02 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08270 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96FEloT018326 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:14:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96FElUg018325 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:14:47 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96FDY3n018282 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:13:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from copernicus ([141.149.185.76]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041006151334.VSTG28868.out004.verizon.net@copernicus> for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <055001c4abb7$22eae200$ad02a8c0@copernicus> From: "Marie-Jose Montpetit" To: References: <00d301c4aa30$e060d110$ad02a8c0@copernicus> <4163D66F.6050107@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <4163E8E2.FF636661@thales-bm.com> Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:13:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [141.149.185.76] at Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:13:31 -0500 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We are aware of INT (see the AR draft) but are looking yes at sending much more information. Marie-Jose ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Lhermitte" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config > If it's just mapping IP addresses to PIDs, DVB has defined a specific table: INT > (IP Notification Table). > But this table does not inform about service types, service description and > services schedule, but it could be possible to add some specific descriptors to > this tables to give additional information about the IP stream contents. It > depends on the information you would like to transmit in this "XML" description. > > Richard > > > > > Gorry Fairhurst a écrit : > > > I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and > > this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for > > setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and > > also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore > > alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses > > to PIDs. > > > > Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any > > existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to > > MPEG-2 transmission networks? > > > > Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! > > > > Gorry > > > > Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > > > > > List: > > > > > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > > > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > > > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > > > > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > > > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > > > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > > > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > > > the web > > > - a subscriber service > > > - on demand service > > > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > > > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > > > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > > > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > > > > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Marie-Jose > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 6 14:31:25 2004 Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20504 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96HoLCn021546 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:50:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i96HoLmw021545 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:50:21 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nab.org (foxtrot.nab.org [209.116.240.194]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i96HnmIs021524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:49:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from ([199.29.3.1]) by maildc2.nab.org with ESMTP id 4028857.2313153; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 13:49:16 -0400 Received: by mail.NAB.ORG with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:49:16 -0400 Message-ID: <5A659834E1607E4EBD72FCE2FE5C9CF108EDC584@mail.NAB.ORG> From: "Allison, Art" To: "'Marie-Jose Montpetit'" , "Allison, Art" Cc: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk, "Jones, Graham" , "Mark Richer (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Use of XML for MPEG Network config Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:49:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk Expect a more detailed response to your questions in a day or two from Mr. Jones. ATSC Standards are provided free of charge. Art ::{)> Arthur W. Allison Director, Science & Technology National Association of Broadcasters 202 429 5418 -----Original Message----- From: Marie-Jose Montpetit [mailto:mariejose.montpetit@verizon.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:35 AM To: Allison, Art Cc: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Jones, Graham; Mark Richer (E-mail) Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config I had a quick look and yes this is very related to what we are doing. You obviously have done all the schema work for a wider range of configuration parameters. We have focussed on AR and have defined another much shorter list. Are your schemas public? What is the status of the standard? One thing we are also looking at is the distribution of the information. Does ATSC have the intention of standardising on that too? Marie-Jose ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison, Art" To: Cc: "Jones, Graham" <>; "Mark Richer (E-mail)" <> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:53 AM Subject: RE: Use of XML for MPEG Network config > Gorry > The ATSC has developed a XML-based standard for use in managing the System > Information for MPEG2 transports. The initial release is focused on setting > variables of the ATSC Program and System Information Protocol and > maintaining consistency with the MPEG2 PAT/PMT structures. It was made > available for public comment during the development cycle as document CS/75 > http://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate_standards.html > and it is now in the formal approval process. Is this the type of document > you are seeking? > > Art > ::{)> > Arthur W. Allison > Director, Science & Technology > National Association of Broadcasters > 202 429 5418 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gorry Fairhurst [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:27 AM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config > > > > I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and > this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for > setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and > also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore > alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses > to PIDs. > > Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any > existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to > MPEG-2 transmission networks? > > Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! > > Gorry > > Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: > > > List: > > > > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of XML > > for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension work of a > > larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other R&D activities. > > > > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of the > > WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a larger set > > of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of services: > > - a static version based on local configuration that can be accessed via > > the web > > - a subscriber service > > - on demand service > > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated > > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are not > > probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the above IP > > mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. > > > > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marie-Jose > > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Oct 7 04:15:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21743 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 04:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFTa8-000223-P2 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Oct 2004 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i977YSev007037 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:34:28 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i977YS10007035 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:34:28 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de (kyoto.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i977Xpvh007007 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:33:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.1.1.109] (dummy.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227651BAC4D for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:33:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:33:43 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Use of XML for MPEG Network config Message-ID: <1E336BDA11514B163AF1BD2E@[10.1.1.109]> In-Reply-To: <200410061214.i96CEQdP028046@informatik.uni-bremen.de> References: <200410061214.i96CEQdP028046@informatik.uni-bremen.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Joerg's comment on NETCONF might be very helpful to look at, since NETCONF is exactly dealing with device configuration (primary routers, but should not be limited to). They use XML based message encoding try to included mechanisms to load several configuration, activate them only if completely loaded and a roll-back function. Probably, it is wise to first collect the required functions for the device configuration. Martin --On Mittwoch, 6. Oktober 2004 14:14 Uhr +0200 Joerg Ott wrote: | Regarding XML, it would be great if we could first formulate the | problem and then figure out whether XML is an adequate solution. | | That said, there is some work ongoing in the IETF that could be | relevant here (that actually uses XML): the NETCONF WG | http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/netconf-charter.html. | I haven't followed the work in the Ops area that much though. | | Joerg | |> I agree that XML is now becoming a common configuration language, and |> this is certainly one way we must explore in the ipdvb WG: both for |> setting up the L1/L2 information at the Receivers and IP Gateways and |> also for address resolution. It would be interesting to explore |> alternatives for the ways in which XML could be used to map IP addresses |> to PIDs. |> |> Can I ask everyone on this list to send an email if they know of any |> existing work (or work-in-progress), especially if it is relevant to |> MPEG-2 transmission networks? |> |> Thanks Marie-Jose for starting this topic, and offering to write a draft! |> |> Gorry |> |> Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: |> |> > List: |> > |> > I am putting together a short draft for the next IETF on the use of |> > XML for MPEG network configuration. This is part of the extension |> > work of a larger IP Over DVB ESA sponsored study as well as my other |> > R&D activities. |> > |> > The poster child right now is address resolution as this is part of |> > the WG charter, but I can see this approach as being useful for a |> > larger set of application. Our initial view is to have 3 types of |> > services: - a static version based on local configuration that can be |> > accessed via the web |> > - a subscriber service |> > - on demand service |> > We expect to be able to use the same semantics and have investigated |> > transport methods based on SIP, SOAP/UDP and SOAP/SIP. I know we are |> > not probably the only people on the list thinking about this as the |> > above IP mechanisms for network control are fairly popular right now. |> > |> > I welcome comments or real life implementations of this. |> > |> > Thanks |> > |> > Marie-Jose |> > |> > |> > |> | From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Oct 7 05:10:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA25627 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 05:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFUSH-0005RB-G8 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Oct 2004 05:20:57 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i978RHgc008358 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:27:17 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i978RHIh008357 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:27:17 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de (kyoto.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i978Pbdt008286 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:25:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.1.1.109] (dummy.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BC31BAC4D for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:25:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:25:30 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Bringing the ARCH draft to WG Last Call Message-ID: <6295A0D52272127720657D80@[10.1.1.109]> In-Reply-To: <052e01c48511$4a702be0$ad02a8c0@copernicus> References: <052e01c48511$4a702be0$ad02a8c0@copernicus> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, --On Mittwoch, 18. August 2004 6:51 Uhr -0400 Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: | There are a few remainning outstanding issues before the ARCH draft can be | brought to WGLC. These were briefly discussed at the IETF but need a wider | discussion on the list. | 1. Should there be some requirements to allow end to end management of IP | flows | this would enable enable operators to better configure, verify and | distribute policies regarding specific flows; there is heritage there from | the cable industry I currently have the problem to understand what exactly the end-to-end management of IP flows is in the context of ipdvb. Management means too many different things to people. Could you give me a hint? | 2. Should address resolution be used to map specific addresses to PIDs | with special features | This would allow to combine AR with resource management, load balancing | and QoS The Internet-style solution would be AR does AR, no more no less. All the other things belong into different protocols, it should be all IETF-safe "Protocol do only things they are intended to do" and Keep it Simple, Stupid (KISS). Martin | 3. Should extension headers carry information about the cell content over | the MPEG-2 section of the network | There are multiple uses of that including flow management. | | In addition we will add a protocol stack to the draft to show where ULE | is. | | Since we would like to finalise this shortly I would appreciate comments | on these issues and closure before 6/25. | | Thanks | | | Marie-Jose Montpetit | | From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 8 04:40:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA03955 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 04:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFqSv-0001Q0-2k for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 04:51:05 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9887e82004925 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:07:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9887eK3004924 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:07:40 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9885Nqp004870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:05:25 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <41664A43.70608@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:05:23 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-02.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP over DVB Working Group of the IETF. Title : Ultra Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) for transmission of IP datagrams over MPEG-2/DVB networks Author(s) : G. Fairhurst, B. Collini-Nocker Filename : draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-02.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2004-10-7 The MPEG-2 TS has been widely accepted not only for providing digital TV services, but also as a subnetwork technology for building IP networks. This document describes an Ultra Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) mechanism for the transport of IPv4 and IPv6 Datagrams and other network protocol packets directly over ISO MPEG- 2 Transport Streams (TS) as TS Private Data. ULE supports an extension format that allows it to carry both optional (with an explicit extension length) and mandatory (with an implicit extension length) header information to assist in network/Receiver processing of a SNDU. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv at ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce at ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 8 07:04:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14256 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 07:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFsiK-0003yS-6Y for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 07:15:09 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i98AcGFh007770 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:38:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i98AcFXW007769 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:38:15 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i98AbjDT007749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:37:46 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <41666DFA.7020608@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:37:46 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Bringing the ARCH draft to WG Last Call References: <052e01c48511$4a702be0$ad02a8c0@copernicus> <6295A0D52272127720657D80@[10.1.1.109]> In-Reply-To: <6295A0D52272127720657D80@[10.1.1.109]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some thoughts are in-line: Martin Stiemerling wrote: > Hi, > > --On Mittwoch, 18. August 2004 6:51 Uhr -0400 Marie-Jose Montpetit > wrote: > > | There are a few remainning outstanding issues before the ARCH draft > can be > | brought to WGLC. These were briefly discussed at the IETF but need a > wider > | discussion on the list. > | 1. Should there be some requirements to allow end to end management of IP > | flows > | this would enable enable operators to better configure, verify and > | distribute policies regarding specific flows; there is heritage there > from > | the cable industry > > I currently have the problem to understand what exactly the end-to-end > management of IP flows is in the context of ipdvb. Management means too > many different things to people. Could you give me a hint? Edge-to-Edge, End-to-End ... These are always confusing terms. My take is something like: the ipdvb WG is to look at solutions that enable MPEG-2 transmission networks to be more fully integrated into IP networks as a subnetwork technology. E-to=E means from IP-router to IP-router or end-host to IP-router or IP-router to end-host. The work includes seamless (where possible) support for IP network functions (IPv6, mobility, security, diffserv, MPLS(?), etc etc), more integrated operations (i.e. ability to interact/inform MPEG-2 transmission network components such as encapsulators and receivers - to indicate the properties of the IP flows which they are to transport). Things to consider include, where policies and decisions made in using the MPEG-2 transmission network for specific IP flows (which specific PIDs are used, which encapsulation is used, which encaps options, which MPEG-2 QoS functions, priority, multicast config, etc). It may be hard to cover all scenarios with a single set of protocols, and we need to be clear of the different usages. Getting the terminology correct will also be challenging. > > | 2. Should address resolution be used to map specific addresses to PIDs > | with special features > | This would allow to combine AR with resource management, load balancing > | and QoS > > The Internet-style solution would be AR does AR, no more no less. All > the other things belong into different protocols, it should be all > IETF-safe "Protocol do only things they are intended to do" and Keep it > Simple, Stupid (KISS). > > Aha - but in MPEG-2 I see "resolution" occurs at three levels (i) IP -> resolution to NPA/MAC address (as in ethernet); (ii) IP -> resolution to Packet ID (PID); (iii) IP -> resolution to specific transmission multiplex/phy link. The WG includes all of these as part of the "resolution" process. - This was the intended scope of a WG AR draft. > Martin > > | 3. Should extension headers carry information about the cell content over > | the MPEG-2 section of the network > | There are multiple uses of that including flow management. > | > | In addition we will add a protocol stack to the draft to show where ULE > | is. > | > | Since we would like to finalise this shortly I would appreciate comments > | on these issues and closure before 6/25. > | > | Thanks > | > | > | Marie-Jose Montpetit > | > | > > Gorry From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 8 07:17:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14914 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 07:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFsu3-00048v-Tb for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 07:27:17 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i98AqECP008087 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:52:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i98AqEqI008086 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:52:14 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i98ApFYw008052 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:51:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from copernicus ([129.44.182.36]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041008105115.YOUR8960.out008.verizon.net@copernicus>; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 05:51:15 -0500 Message-ID: <0c5001c4ad24$bb614b00$ad02a8c0@copernicus> From: "Marie-Jose Montpetit" To: , References: <052e01c48511$4a702be0$ad02a8c0@copernicus> <6295A0D52272127720657D80@[10.1.1.109]> Subject: Re: Bringing the ARCH draft to WG Last Call Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 06:51:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [129.44.182.36] at Fri, 8 Oct 2004 05:51:11 -0500 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your comments see my reply below: snip/snip > I currently have the problem to understand what exactly the end-to-end > management of IP flows is in the context of ipdvb. Management means too > many different things to people. Could you give me a hint? > >snip/snip > > The Internet-style solution would be AR does AR, no more no less. All the > other things belong into different protocols, it should be all IETF-safe > "Protocol do only things they are intended to do" and Keep it Simple, > Stupid (KISS). I think both your comments are related. The common belief here is that an address resolution protocols in the wider sense (as it relates to the bigger configuration/management issues) should allow operators to do more than blindly attach a IP adrress to a MAC address or to a PID in this case. For example it should enforce security/authentication measures to prevent unauthorised traffic from even getting one the network and allow some addresses or flows with specific characteristics to be assigned different PIDs to guarantee they will get processed the right way. That is not against the KISS principle, actually could be simpler than current implementations. I believe it to be good engineering practice to have solution that are extensible, flexible and open. Marie-Jose From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Tue Oct 12 03:27:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA24844 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 03:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHHEs-0007G4-A2 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 03:38:30 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9C6iUVO025409 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:44:31 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9C6iUN3025408 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:44:30 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nrg.cs.usm.my (network2.cs.usm.my [161.142.8.104]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9C6hadb025370 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:43:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from motangkia (unknown [10.207.140.69]) by nrg.cs.usm.my (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DE32200C6 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:29:52 +0800 (MYT) From: "Simon Teh" To: "Ip-DVB" Subject: Data Piping in ETSI EN 301 192 v1.4.1 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:37:16 +0800 Organization: NRG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B068.F8FEC4F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcSwJenVd98r0c32TYeP70dT4rkLuA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20041012062952.90DE32200C6@nrg.cs.usm.my> X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B068.F8FEC4F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear members, I have read a paper on final draft of ETSI EN 301 192 v1.4.1. In this paper (the scope) it stated the four different applications areas with different requirements for the data transport, there are: a)Data Piping b)Data Streaming c)Multiprotocol Encapsulation d)Data carousels My question is: Is the Data Piping also call as ULE ? Best Regards, Simon Teh Universiti Sains Malaysia ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B068.F8FEC4F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear members,

 

I have read a paper on final draft of ETSI EN 301 192 =
v1.4.1. In this paper (the scope) it =
stated the four different applications areas with different requirements =
for the data transport, there =
are:
a)Data =
Piping
b)Data =
Streaming
c)Multiprotocol =
Encapsulation
d)Data =
carousels
 
My question is:  Is the =
Data Piping also call as ULE ?

 

 

Best = Regards,

Simon = Teh

Universiti Sains = Malaysia

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B068.F8FEC4F0-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Tue Oct 12 04:30:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28959 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHIEL-0008Jc-HW for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:42:03 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9C7iWHF026795 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:44:32 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9C7iWDb026794 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:44:32 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from esacom57-int.estec.esa.int (esacom57-ext.estec.esa.int [131.176.107.4]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9C7i3Nm026773 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:44:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from esacom52.estec.esa.int (esacom52.estec.esa.int [131.176.7.7]) by esacom57-int.estec.esa.int (8.12.10/8.12.10/ESA-External-v3.2) with ESMTP id i9C7hwk5027264; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:43:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from estecmta1.estec.esa.int (estecmta1.estec.esa.int [131.176.1.131]) by esacom52.estec.esa.int (8.12.10/8.12.10/ESA-Internal-v3.2) with ESMTP id i9C7hvwL019222; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:43:58 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Presentations on IPv6 over satellite/DVB-S now available To: ipv6cluster@ist-ipv6.org, ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: From: Frank.Zeppenfeldt@esa.int Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:43:55 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on estecmta1/estec/ESA(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 12/10/2004 09:43:57 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Dear all, A half-day of presentations was held at the telecommunications department of the European Space Agency on "IPv6 over satellite" on 20 September 2004. It included the final presentation of a study by IABG (Germany) and a number of presentations from industry and academia that are working on this topic. Furthermore, a briefing on the use of IPv6 with ULE in an DVB-S/SCPC satellite network in the Virtual SILK Highway Project was given. The orginal invitation for this presentation was announced in http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ipdvb/archive/msg00764.html All presentations are now available on http://telecom.esa.int/ipv6 Best regards, Frank Zeppenfeldt Frank.Zeppenfeldt@esa.int Tel +31 (0)71 5654376 Fax +31 (0)71 5654093 http://telecom.esa.int/ D-EUI/TSM ESA/ESTEC (European Space & Technology Centre) Keplerlaan 1 Postbus 299 2200 AG Noordwijk (The Netherlands) From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Oct 13 05:42:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06820 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHfpP-0000R8-Dt for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:53:54 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9D8YBRw001435 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:34:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9D8YAtq001434 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:34:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [192.168.20.106] ([193.80.54.250]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9D8WRaD001378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:32:41 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.0.0.040405 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:34:58 +0200 Subject: Agenda Items for IETF-61 (November 2004) From: Gorry Fairhurst To: "ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All- This is a poll for agenda items for the ipdvb WG meeting in Washington DC. Proposals (or items for discussion) may be sent to me or the list. I intend to post an Agenda next week. -- gorry _______________________________________________ ipdvb IETF mailing list: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk list info: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ipdvb/ wg charter: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ipdvb-charter.html From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 18 06:26:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA03601 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJUux-00053M-Kq for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:39:08 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9I9IlaA023527 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:18:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9I9IlVq023526 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:18:47 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [139.133.207.156] (dhcp-207-156.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9I9Hagr023471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:17:37 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.0.0.040405 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:59:58 +0100 Subject: Working Group Last Call (WGLC): draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt From: Gorry Fairhurst To: "ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This note starts the ipdvb WG Last Call for comments for the WG document named below: draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt The last call will end on 29/10/2002. Members of the IETF are asked to read the draft and send any issues, comments, or corrections to this mailing list. The WGLC procedure is the last chance for this working group to modify/correct this z. Please do forward any comments to the list. Best wishes, Gorry Fairhurst (ipdvb WG Chair) From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 18 06:31:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA03843 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJUzk-00058T-GM for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:44:05 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9I9Fvol023418 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:15:58 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9I9FvN1023417 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:15:57 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nrg.cs.usm.my (nrg.cs.usm.my [161.142.8.104]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9I9DbGM023313 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:13:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.207.140.97] (unknown [10.207.140.97]) by nrg.cs.usm.my (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466E8220099 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:13:26 +0800 (MYT) Subject: ULE utilities? From: Nurul Azila To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1098091401.12178.0.camel@alundra> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 18 Oct 2004 17:23:21 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone, i would like to ask if there is any ULE checking utilities available at the moment, something like dvbsnoop? Could you give me the name(s)? thank you in advance. regards, nurul From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 18 06:44:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA04435 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJVC3-0005IE-4X for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:56:48 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9I9WicV023873 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:32:45 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9I9WiUe023872 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:32:44 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9I9W3cU023840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:32:04 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <41738D8E.7090903@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:31:58 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: ipdvb: Provisonal Agenda for IETF-61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you to those who have contributed so far, please send any additional topics/presentations to me, an Also, please note Wednesday October 27th is the cut-off forPre-Registration and Pre-payment for this meeting. Although people can still register later, or at the meeting itself. See: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-61.html Gorry ------ IPDVB WG IP over Digital Video Broadcast ======== THURSDAY, November 11, 2004 1530-1730 Afternoon Sessions II Internet Area 1. Agenda Bashing (5 minutes) - Chair * Agenda changes * Election of scribes 2. Working Group Status and Plans (10 minutes) - Chair * Documents in Last Call 3. Requirements/Framework (10 minutes) - Marie-Jose Montpetit * Changes since last meeting * Current status 4. Ultra Lightweight Encapsulation (10 minutes) - G Fairhurst * Changes since rev -01. * Current status * Update on status of known implementations 5. ULE Extension Headers (5 minutes) - G Fairhurst http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-collini-xule-00.txt * Current status 6 Address Resolution (20 minutes) - Marie-Jose Montpetit Izu http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-ar-??.txt (or replacement WG draft) * Discussion of requirements for different scenarios * Look for way to proceed 7. New drafts (20 minutes) * tbd. 8. Review of Milestones (5 minutes) - Chair Archive: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ipdvb/archive Gorry Fairhurst IPDVB WG Chair From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 18 07:18:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA06507 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJVjJ-0005tD-2o for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:31:12 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9IAC7Rn025177 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:12:07 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9IAC7Yv025176 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:12:07 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from loewe.cosy.sbg.ac.at (loewe.cosy.sbg.ac.at [141.201.2.12]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9IA9oI6025077 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:09:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from [141.201.123.101] (kaenguruh.cosy.sbg.ac.at [141.201.123.101]) by loewe.cosy.sbg.ac.at (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18176 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:09:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <4173966E.7090304@cosy.sbg.ac.at> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:09:50 +0200 From: Hilmar Linder Organization: Universitaet Salzburg, Fachbereich Scientific Computing User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (X11/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: ULE utilities? References: <1098091401.12178.0.camel@alundra> In-Reply-To: <1098091401.12178.0.camel@alundra> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nurul, > > i would like to ask if there is any ULE checking utilities available > at the moment, something like dvbsnoop? > Could you give me the name(s)? > we are finalizing an open-source extension to Ethereal which will be able to parse ULE packets, We will soon release the patch and announce it on this mailing list. Regards, -Hilmar From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 18 07:31:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07234 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJVvs-00067u-2O for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:44:08 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9IAtXIi026596 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:55:33 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9IAtWgK026595 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:55:33 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9IAsTff026559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:54:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4173A0E0.7020506@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:54:24 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Packet decode example in draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This appears to resolve the problem described in: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/archive/msg00776.html Gorry ---- Hi Gorry, Here is the result of the CRC32 recalcualtion for MAC address 00:01:02:03:04:05 ULE SNDU length : 63 ULE protocol type : 0x86dd ULE dest MAC addr: present (D-bit: 0): 00:01:02:03:04:05 ULE CRC32 : 0x4709a744, verification: Ok (0x4709a744) 0000: 00 3f 86 dd 00 01 02 03 04 05 60 00 00 00 00 0d .?........`..... 0016: 3a 40 20 01 06 60 30 08 17 89 00 00 00 00 00 00 :@ ..`0......... 0032: 00 05 20 01 06 60 30 08 17 89 00 00 00 00 00 00 .. ..`0......... 0048: 00 06 80 00 9d 8c 06 38 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 47 .......8.......G 0064: 09 a7 44 ..D Kind regards, Bernhard > Someone very kindly pointed a slight "problem" with the worked example > provided in the Informative Appendix, ANNEXE B, of the draft ULE > spec. The current text reads: > > " An example of ULE encapsulation carrying an ICMPv6 packet generated > by ping6. > > ULE SNDU Length : 63 decimal > D-bit value : 0 (NPA Present) > ULE Protocol Type : 0x86dd (IPv6) > Destination ULE NPA Address: 01:02:03:04:05:06 **** MULTICAST **** > ULE CRC32 : 0x784679a5 > > Source IPv6: 2001:660:3008:1789::5 > Destination IPv6: 2001:660:3008:1789::6 > > SNDU contents (including CRC-32): > > 0000: 00 3f 86 dd 01 02 03 04 05 06 60 00 00 00 00 0d > 0010: 3a 40 20 01 06 60 30 08 17 89 00 00 00 00 00 00 > 0020: 00 05 20 01 06 60 30 08 17 89 00 00 00 00 00 00 > 0030: 00 06 80 00 9d 8c 06 38 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 78 > 0040: 46 79 a5 " > > >Although the CRC-32 is correct, there's a slight irregularity > in the MAC address cited in the example. > > The cited mac address is multicast, whereas the IPV6 address is >Unicast... > Looking at section 4.5 of ULE: " The ****least significant bit**** > of the >first byte of the address is set to 1 for multicast frames, and the >remaining bytes specify the link layer multicast address." Note my >highlighting with "***". > >Although this does not invalidate the example - from the point of view >of validating the CRC32 calculation - it is not a good example > of expected >use. > >Could someone perhaps please compute the CRC32 again over the same >packet >using a unicast NPA address instead? > > Gorry > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 18 22:43:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22081 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJkAB-0000eT-AJ for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:55:52 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9J1v7an016746 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:57:07 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9J1v718016745 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:57:07 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nrg.cs.usm.my (netmon.cs.usm.my [161.142.8.104]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9J1uUN8016722 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:56:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.207.140.97] (unknown [10.207.140.97]) by nrg.cs.usm.my (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6292200B5 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:56:14 +0800 (MYT) Subject: Re: ULE utilities? From: Nurul Azila To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <4173966E.7090304@cosy.sbg.ac.at> References: <1098091401.12178.0.camel@alundra> <4173966E.7090304@cosy.sbg.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1098151571.2699.1.camel@alundra> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 19 Oct 2004 10:06:11 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 18:09, Hilmar Linder wrote: > Nurul, > > > > i would like to ask if there is any ULE checking utilities available > > at the moment, something like dvbsnoop? > > Could you give me the name(s)? > > > we are finalizing an open-source extension to Ethereal which will be > able to parse ULE packets, We will soon release the patch and announce > it on this mailing list. > > Regards, > > -Hilmar i see. thank you for the info. regards, nurul From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 22 05:49:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA16331 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 05:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKwGD-0002Ed-Mi for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:03:02 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9M98U4r013473 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:08:30 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9M98UIf013472 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:08:30 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nrg.cs.usm.my (netmon.cs.usm.my [161.142.8.104]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9M96Okf013403 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:06:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from motangkia (unknown [10.207.140.69]) by nrg.cs.usm.my (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950D5220080 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:06:09 +0800 (MYT) From: "Simon Teh" To: "Ip-DVB" Subject: MPE and ULE padding Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:06:06 +0800 Organization: NRG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B859.6BB7E330" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcS4Fl0dXXNJSq/cSueFpaScnw0WJQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20041022090609.950D5220080@nrg.cs.usm.my> X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7c1a129dc3801d79d40c5ca8dee767eb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B859.6BB7E330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear members, I have a question on MPE and ULE padding. According to the ULE draft, it stated that if the SNDU finished before the end of TS packet payload and it intend not to start another SNDU; the stuffing will procedure will fills the remainder of the TS packet payload with a value 0xFF. But for MPE padding, does it use Adaptation field as stuffing? Could anybody please tell about the MPE padding procedure because I'm doing a comparison between this two encapsulation methods. Thanks! Best Regards, Simon Teh Universiti Sains Malaysia ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B859.6BB7E330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear members,

 

I have a question on MPE and ULE padding. = According to the ULE draft, it stated that if the SNDU finished before the end of TS = packet payload and it intend not to start another SNDU; the stuffing will = procedure will fills the remainder of the TS packet payload with a value 0xFF. But = for MPE padding, does it use Adaptation field as stuffing? Could anybody = please tell about the MPE padding procedure because I’m doing a = comparison between this two encapsulation methods.

 

Thanks!

Best = Regards,

Simon = Teh

Universiti Sains = Malaysia

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C4B859.6BB7E330-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 25 07:29:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16041 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM3G8-0004Fv-JD for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:43:35 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9PAkkaI012742 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:46:46 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9PAkjit012741 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:46:45 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9PAjLOj012697 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:45:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <417CD940.5090006@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:45:20 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: agenda@ietf.org CC: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: ipdvb: Meeting Agenda for IETF-61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I enclose the WG agenda for the November ipdvb meeting at the 61st IETF, Washington DC. http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-61.html Gorry Fairhurst IPDVB WG Chair ------ IPDVB WG IP over Digital Video Broadcast ======== THURSDAY, November 11, 2004 1530-1730 Afternoon Sessions II Internet Area 1. Agenda Bashing (5 minutes) - Chair * Agenda changes * Election of scribes 2. Working Group Status and Plans (10 minutes) - Chair * Documents in Last Call 3. Requirements/Framework (10 minutes) - Marie-Jose Montpetit http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-arch-01.txt * Changes since last meeting * Results of Working Group Last Call (WGLC) 4. Ultra Lightweight Encapsulation (10 minutes) - G Fairhurst http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ule-02.txt * Changes since rev -01. * Current status * Update on status of known implementations * Readiness for Working Group Last Call (WGLC) 5. ULE Extension Headers (5 minutes) - G Fairhurst http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-collini-xule-00.txt * Current status 6 Address Resolution (15 minutes) - Marie-Jose Montpetit http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-ar-02.txt (or replacement WG draft) * Discussion of requirements for different scenarios 7. XML for Receiver AR Config (15 minutes) - Martin Stiemerling * Scenarios for deployment; Potential parameters 8. Receiver AR Config/Protocol (25 minutes) - Chair draft-mjm-ipdvb-config-00.txt (see mailing list) * Discussion of proposed work within ipdvb * Look for way to proceed 9. Review of Milestones (10 minutes) - Chair Archive: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ipdvb/archive Gorry Fairhurst IPDVB WG Chair From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Oct 25 09:40:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25682 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM5IK-0006ul-Dx for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:53:58 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9PD1eYA016789 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:01:41 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9PD1eLj016788 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:01:40 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtpout01-03.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout01-03.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.78]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9PCvnwu016637 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:57:49 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 16237 invoked from network); 25 Oct 2004 12:57:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail-2-5.mesa1.secureserver.net) (64.202.166.92) by smtpout01-03.mesa1.secureserver.net with SMTP; 25 Oct 2004 12:57:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 24021 invoked by uid 99); 25 Oct 2004 12:57:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20041025125744.24020.qmail@webmail-2-5.mesa1.secureserver.net> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:57:44 -0700 From: Marie-Jose Montpetit To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk cc: gbyso@bu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/mixed; BOUNDARY="-901751642-1862059609-1098709064=:6179" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4ec3642ae9025e273a4a263d640f3300 ---901751642-1862059609-1098709064=:6179 Content-Type: TEXT/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Group:
 
this is the 1st attempt at the receiver configuration draft that was briefly discussed on the list in the past weeks. It missed the IETF deadline by 2 hours so will only be re-submitted after Nov. 7th so not in time for IETF-61 but I suppose ok for the next one.
 
 
Marie-Jose
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ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26258 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM5Pu-00075n-Vz for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:01:49 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9PCvNkv016631 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:57:23 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9PCvMrW016630 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:57:22 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtpout01-03.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout01-03.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.78]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9PCtG84016535 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:55:17 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 13606 invoked from network); 25 Oct 2004 12:55:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail-2-5.mesa1.secureserver.net) (64.202.166.92) by smtpout01-03.mesa1.secureserver.net with SMTP; 25 Oct 2004 12:55:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 23875 invoked by uid 99); 25 Oct 2004 12:55:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20041025125511.23874.qmail@webmail-2-5.mesa1.secureserver.net> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:55:11 -0700 From: Marie-Jose Montpetit Subject: draft-fair-ipdvb-ar-02.txt To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/mixed; BOUNDARY="-901751642-1862059609-1098708911=:22767" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9624d2f5d047d13a089d0be4702e088f ---901751642-1862059609-1098708911=:22767 Content-Type: TEXT/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Group:
 
please find enclosed a revision of the Address Resolution draft that was submitted to the IETF last week. It is a quite extensive revision that took into account the discussions at the last IETF.
 
Marie-Jose
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18:45:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24734 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMwlW-0001Hf-Av for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:59:50 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RLnYWs011152 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:49:34 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9RLnYph011151 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:49:34 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtp-out2.oct.nac.net (smtp-out2.oct.nac.net [209.123.233.212]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9RLn33W011134 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:49:03 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 48655 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2004 17:49:01 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.oct.nac.net) (209.123.233.241) by smtp-out2.oct.nac.net with SMTP; 27 Oct 2004 17:49:01 -0400 Received: (qmail 23007 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2004 17:48:57 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO nsx.garage) (gmgross@66.246.164.82) by mail1.oct.nac.net with SMTP; 27 Oct 2004 17:48:57 -0400 Received: (from gmg@localhost) by nsx.garage (8.11.2/8.11.2) id i9RJE4121637; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:14:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:14:04 -0400 (EDT) From: George Gross To: "ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk" Subject: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Hi, I was reviewing the above draft's security considerations section 8, and thinking about possible threat models. Suppose a rogue DVB-RCS subscriber cracked the terminal's software and took control of its behavior. From what I could discern, in the absence of point to point link layer encryption that adversary could eavesdrop on any peer subscriber's IP communications, correct? Let's assume the hapless peer subscriber is Joe Consumer, for whom IPsec and TLS are random letters in the alphabet. This scenario could be a security exposure similar to what early 802.11b had, which garnered lots of negative press and rev'ing to fix that standard. As currently written, the section 8.1 leaves it up to the Access Network Operator to optionally set up a link layer security service. Yet there is insufficient definition of what that security service is, and how it would be integrated with the IP layer related services, such as DVB address resolution. It seems odd to imply that the IPDVB architecture would depend on those link layer security services, yet not even name them by reference and mandate one. I would have thought the IPDVB architecture would require at least _one_ of those possible choices _must_ be implemented as part of the IETF standard. Otherwise, no two IPDVB implementations could inter-operate unless they happened to understand the same Access Network Operator's link layer security service. I seem to recall that there was an e-mail thread on this list wrt/ security last spring, but its conclusion didn't seem to account for the above security risks and inter-operability issue... hth, George On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > This note starts the ipdvb WG Last Call for comments for the WG document > named below: > > draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > > The last call will end on 29/10/2002. > > Members of the IETF are asked to read the draft and send any issues, > comments, or corrections to this mailing list. The WGLC procedure is the > last chance for this working group to modify/correct this z. > > Please do forward any comments to the list. > > Best wishes, > > Gorry Fairhurst > (ipdvb WG Chair) > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Oct 28 02:02:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26653 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CN3b1-0000eG-8p for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:17:18 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9S54B6N021061 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:04:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9S54A3w021060 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:04:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9S52rQh021028 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:02:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from copernicus ([141.149.188.251]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041028050252.RFVU2329.out012.verizon.net@copernicus> for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:02:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01b501c4bcab$3db4b8e0$ad02a8c0@copernicus> From: "Marie-Jose Montpetit" To: References: Subject: Re: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:01:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [141.149.188.251] at Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:02:34 -0500 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there unanimity the suggestions of this email should be part of ARCH? Any other suggestion? Marie-Jose ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Gross" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:14 PM Subject: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > Hi, > > I was reviewing the above draft's security considerations section > 8, and thinking about possible threat models. > > Suppose a rogue DVB-RCS subscriber cracked the terminal's software > and took control of its behavior. From what I could discern, in the > absence of point to point link layer encryption that adversary could > eavesdrop on any peer subscriber's IP communications, correct? Let's > assume the hapless peer subscriber is Joe Consumer, for whom IPsec and TLS > are random letters in the alphabet. This scenario could be a security > exposure similar to what early 802.11b had, which garnered lots of > negative press and rev'ing to fix that standard. > > As currently written, the section 8.1 leaves it up to the Access > Network Operator to optionally set up a link layer security service. Yet > there is insufficient definition of what that security service is, and how > it would be integrated with the IP layer related services, such as DVB > address resolution. It seems odd to imply that the IPDVB architecture > would depend on those link layer security services, yet not even name them > by reference and mandate one. > > I would have thought the IPDVB architecture would require at least > _one_ of those possible choices _must_ be implemented as part of the IETF > standard. Otherwise, no two IPDVB implementations could inter-operate > unless they happened to understand the same Access Network Operator's link > layer security service. > > I seem to recall that there was an e-mail thread on this list wrt/ > security last spring, but its conclusion didn't seem to account for the > above security risks and inter-operability issue... > > hth, > George > > > On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > > > > This note starts the ipdvb WG Last Call for comments for the WG document > > named below: > > > > draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > > > > The last call will end on 29/10/2002. > > > > Members of the IETF are asked to read the draft and send any issues, > > comments, or corrections to this mailing list. The WGLC procedure is the > > last chance for this working group to modify/correct this z. > > > > Please do forward any comments to the list. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Gorry Fairhurst > > (ipdvb WG Chair) > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Oct 28 07:21:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA01334 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CN8ZC-0006hP-L2 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:35:43 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9SAafc1028728 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:36:41 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9SAafVm028727 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:36:41 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mail1.future.futsoft.com (mail1.future.futsoft.com [203.197.138.222]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9SAYGRs028639 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:34:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from kailash.future.futsoft.com (unverified [203.197.140.36]) by mail1.future.futsoft.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.12) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:02:59 +0530 Received: from anurags (anurags.future.futsoft.com [10.8.3.45]) by kailash.future.futsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id i9SAY2Jp022922 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:04:02 +0530 From: "Anurag Sharma" To: Subject: CRC Check for DSMCC section Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:07:51 +0530 Message-ID: <006f01c4bcda$2d4e11c0$2d03080a@future.futsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I would like to know if the CRC check done for the DSMCC section includes only the payload or DSM CC header too. regards, Anurag *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Oct 28 15:44:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26269 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNGQJ-0007IC-FY for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:59:04 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9SIO4A8011178 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:24:04 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9SIO3Bc011177 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:24:03 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9SINDqZ011148 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:23:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:23:05 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-42.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.202]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:23:15 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: CRC Check for DSMCC section Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:23:07 -0700 Message-ID: <19A328037921AA42847A717566D1D6A103439125@RED-MSG-42.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: CRC Check for DSMCC section Thread-Index: AcS83QLP7GU4+6ZlT4iCJBHfq6+ECAAPdDJg From: "Regis Crinon" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2004 18:23:15.0379 (UTC) FILETIME=[30CE0030:01C4BD1B] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id i9SIO1Xc011174 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, from table_id to the end of the section, through the last byte of the CRC_32 field. Regis J. Crinon Microsoft Corporation. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Anurag Sharma Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:38 AM To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: CRC Check for DSMCC section Hi, I would like to know if the CRC check done for the DSMCC section includes only the payload or DSM CC header too. regards, Anurag ************************************************************************ *** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. ************************************************************************ *** From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 06:00:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA13761 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNTmU-0002Xv-49 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:14:50 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9T9TdaX002488 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:29:39 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9T9Tcnd002486 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:29:39 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from tony.org (ip-2-81-56-61.rev.dyxnet.com [61.56.81.2]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9T9SDKV002431 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:28:18 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:28:02 +0800 To: "Ip-dvb" From: "Clausen" Subject: {Filename?} Re: Hello Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--------njcvkzsfrkoidzgdvqsv" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be infected, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b ----------njcvkzsfrkoidzgdvqsv Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

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----------njcvkzsfrkoidzgdvqsv Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; name="ERG-Attachment-Warning.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ERG-Attachment-Warning.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *** This is an automated warning message *** is on the list of unacceptable attachments for this site and has been replaced by this warning message. Due to limitations placed on us by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, we were unable to keep a copy of the original attachment. At Fri Oct 29 10:29:32 2004 the virus scanner said: MailScanner: Control panel items are often used to hide viruses (Price.c= pl) -- Virus Admin (virus-admin@erg.abdn.ac.uk) Electronics Research Group, Dept of Engineering, University of Aberdeen. ----------njcvkzsfrkoidzgdvqsv-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 06:45:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA13762 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNTmU-0002Xw-5e for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:14:50 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9T9U6Xk002516 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:06 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9T9U54d002515 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:05 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9T9SnVG002452 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:28:50 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <41820D52.40405@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:28:50 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: WGLC Reminder: draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt 29th October 2004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As WG Chair: The WGLC for the above ID is due to end at midnight on 29th October 2004. Please ensure that you send an email to the ipdvb list if there are ANY issues which you think may require further discussion or any comments/corrections. I'll summarise all issues raised on 1st November 2004. It would also be most useful to email, if you have read the document and have no comments (or just minor corrections). WG members, can people please consider the security issue that was raised and respond. Security is an important topic, if there are new comments/inputs, let's assess them as a WG. Gorry Fairhurst (IPDVB WG CHAIR) From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 07:08:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17671 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNUr3-0003tZ-A5 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:23:38 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9TARPfP004136 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:27:25 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9TARP2B004135 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:27:25 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com (mgw-x3.nokia.com [131.228.20.26]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9TAPxeN004070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:26:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from esdks004.ntc.nokia.com (esdks004.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.159]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id i9TAPxl06984 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:25:59 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:25:20 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.31 2004060815 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks004.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id i9TAPKIY007066 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:25:20 +0300 Received: from mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.96) by esdks004.ntc.nokia.com 00hQKhuG; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:23:10 EEST Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.28]) by mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id i9TAN8a18451 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:23:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebe018.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.57]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:23:08 +0300 Received: from trebe051.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.60]) by esebe018.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:23:06 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:23:06 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Thread-Index: AcS8c0/54AVEcB6BSaOeu8Xcx0W2GgBKFpxA From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 10:23:06.0937 (UTC) FILETIME=[480C5A90:01C4BDA1] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id i9TARN9H004130 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George's observations are valid, but I an sure that mandiating a link level security will significantly reduce the deployability of this architecture. In the short and medium term there is no hope of convergence to a single "MPEG2-TS link layer security" method. So I think George is right when he asks for a "definition of what that security service is, and how it would be integrated with the IP layer related services, such as DVB address resolution" - the document is well on the way to this. However, the architecture needs to be modular enough to enable the current mix of solutions to be used and make space for future ones. IMHO, some requirements and guidelines on the link layer security would be sufficient. BTW, I'm sorry I've been too busy to do a detailed review of draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt review, but here are a few comments that should help at high level scan review: * The document looks good and the flow and level of detail looks right * The table of contents needs page numbers * the "Change Notice:" should be described in a annex including a note to the RFC Editor that they are not to be included in the RFC * "D-TV" of figure 1 should be "terrestrial" to be in line with "satelite" and "cable" (all 3 can deliver D-TV and more). * "Data-cast" is correctly spelt "Datacast" and is more commonly known as "IP Datacast" in this context (other-than-IP packetisation over broacast also gets labelled datacast from time to time) * I get the impression that it is an intentional limitation of the AR that it applies only to the current TS (as you would expect cf ARP). This is a sensible limitation but it's worth stating explicitly. (i.e. that address resolution for other TSes, e.g. for moving TS and mobility optomisation, is not in scope). (You can see that level at which I read :) Also, what is the "statement of intent"? (i.e. I assume the intention is to give this to the IESG to become an Informational RFC, but the WGLC doesn't say. Experimental could be an option if there is any intent to turn this into a normative specification once other IPDVB I-Ds progress - though I have not got the impression that this has been asked for). Cheers, Rod. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk]On > Behalf Of ext George Gross > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:14 PM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > > > Hi, > > I was reviewing the above draft's security > considerations section > 8, and thinking about possible threat models. > > Suppose a rogue DVB-RCS subscriber cracked the > terminal's software > and took control of its behavior. From what I could discern, in the > absence of point to point link layer encryption that adversary could > eavesdrop on any peer subscriber's IP communications, correct? Let's > assume the hapless peer subscriber is Joe Consumer, for whom > IPsec and TLS > are random letters in the alphabet. This scenario could be a security > exposure similar to what early 802.11b had, which garnered lots of > negative press and rev'ing to fix that standard. > > As currently written, the section 8.1 leaves it up to the Access > Network Operator to optionally set up a link layer security > service. Yet > there is insufficient definition of what that security > service is, and how > it would be integrated with the IP layer related services, such as DVB > address resolution. It seems odd to imply that the IPDVB architecture > would depend on those link layer security services, yet not > even name them > by reference and mandate one. > > I would have thought the IPDVB architecture would > require at least > _one_ of those possible choices _must_ be implemented as part > of the IETF > standard. Otherwise, no two IPDVB implementations could inter-operate > unless they happened to understand the same Access Network > Operator's link > layer security service. > > I seem to recall that there was an e-mail thread on > this list wrt/ > security last spring, but its conclusion didn't seem to > account for the > above security risks and inter-operability issue... > > hth, > George > > > On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > > > > This note starts the ipdvb WG Last Call for comments for > the WG document > > named below: > > > > draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > > > > The last call will end on 29/10/2002. > > > > Members of the IETF are asked to read the draft and send any issues, > > comments, or corrections to this mailing list. The WGLC > procedure is the > > last chance for this working group to modify/correct this z. > > > > Please do forward any comments to the list. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Gorry Fairhurst > > (ipdvb WG Chair) > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 12:31:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13147 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNZsv-0002ie-Fv for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:46:04 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9TEoGPc010701 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:50:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9TEoGpn010700 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:50:16 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtp-out1.oct.nac.net (smtp-out1.oct.nac.net [209.123.233.211]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9TEmpHA010652 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:48:51 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 397 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2004 14:48:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.oct.nac.net) (209.123.233.241) by smtp-out1.oct.nac.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 2004 14:48:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 91331 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2004 10:48:50 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO nsx.garage) (gmgross@66.246.164.82) by mail1.oct.nac.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 2004 10:48:50 -0400 Received: (from gmg@localhost) by nsx.garage (8.11.2/8.11.2) id i9TCDa428915; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:13:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: George Gross To: Subject: RE: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Hi Rod, On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 Rod.Walsh@nokia.com wrote: > George's observations are valid, but I an sure that mandiating a link > level security will significantly reduce the deployability of this > architecture. In the short and medium term there is no hope of > convergence to a single "MPEG2-TS link layer security" method. So what I think I hear you saying here is that the IPDVB is not one link layer really, but "N" different vendor-specific link layers, each with their own link layer security service. is this a fair assessment? It seems to me, IPDVB without security is a non-starter. Yet the above would lead me to conclude that there is a tacit assumption that IPDVB implementations are vendor-specific. When I contrast this aspect of IPDVB with the IEEE 802.11 and IEEE 802.16 wireless standards, the lack of a common security service looks to be a barrier to its acceptance, economies of scale, and a widespread interoperability between different IPDVB vendor's equipment. > So I think George is right when he asks for a "definition of what that > security service is, and how it would be integrated with the IP layer > related services, such as DVB address resolution" - the document is > well on the way to this. However, the architecture needs to be modular > enough to enable the current mix of solutions to be used and make > space for future ones. Agreed. For starters, I would like to see a list of references enumerating the relevant security services, assuming they are in the public domain > > IMHO, some requirements and guidelines on the link layer security would be sufficient. That would be a good first step, although I am not confident that such guidelines will be enough to avoid a future security exposure along the lines that I sketched. Or other scenarios yet to be discussed that lurk in the IPDVB link layer. Unfortunately, since this is an informational document, its statements are not normative. A vendor could claim IPDVB compliance even if its products are not secure. Given what we saw with the 802.11b security debacle, it would be worthwhile to have a strong industry-wide IPDVB security standard. If one of the IPDVB vendors doesn't "get it right" like as happened with 802.11b, then all IPDVB deployments get a publicity blackeye even if their own respective security service is adequate. What I think this all points to is the need for a standards track IPDVB security protocol document that straddles the vendor-specific DVB link layers. I don't know IPDVB history in other SDO, so this may have already been tried and stalled in those venues. Could someone who knows that history please offer some perspective? In the IETF MSEC venue, we do have IP-layer candidate solutions that could be extended and applied to IPDVB's problem. Would this working group consider such an approach? br, George From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 13:53:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19440 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:53:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNbB6-0004bK-5J for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:08:45 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9THDRJ7014534 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:13:27 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9THDQZj014533 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:13:26 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9TH9866014380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:09:13 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <41827936.30101@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:09:10 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Rod! I will respond more to the detail at a later date, but to answer the following quickly: > Also, what is the "statement of intent"? (i.e. I assume the intention > is to give this to the IESG to become an Informational RFC, but the > WGLC doesn't say. Experimental could be an option if there is any > intent to turn this into a normative specification once other IPDVB > I-Ds progress - though I have not got the impression that this has > been asked for). > > Cheers, Rod. > It is not the intention to change THIS document into a protocol spec - although the WG is now invited/expected to work on the other Charter items which relate to implementing elements of the architecture. The document was written in reponse to the following charter item: "Specify the requirements and architecture for supporting IPv4/IPv6 via MPEG-2 transmission networks. Such requirements should consider the range of platforms currently (or anticipated to be) in use. This draft will be an Informational RFC." When completed it will therefore be put to the IESG for proposed publication as an INFORMATIONAL document, although the final classification is of course determined by the IESG, not the WG. Best wishes, Gorry Fairhurst (ipdvb WG Chair) From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 14:02:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19957 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNbIx-0004jK-Pe for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:16:53 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9TGHbK3012998 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:17:37 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9TGHbrI012997 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:17:37 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mailg.surrey.ac.uk (mailg.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.102.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9TGH6g7012980 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:17:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from ads33.surrey.ac.uk by mailg.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:11:14 +0100 Received: from EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.136]) by ads33.surrey.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:11:13 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: FW: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:11:05 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Thread-Index: AcS8dDwVza+rYIuEQmOw/ufCDYU1cgAkXARgADMAjIA= From: "Cruickshank HS Dr (Electronic Eng)" To: ipdvb X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 16:11:13.0300 (UTC) FILETIME=[E94A6D40:01C4BDD1] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id i9TGHZul012993 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi George and all, I like to add my comment to this threat about the security considerations. See comments in-line: -- Dr. Haitham S. Cruickshank Senior Research Fellow Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR) School of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844) Fax: +44 1483 686011 e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On Behalf Of George Gross Sent: 27 October 2004 20:14 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt Hi, I was reviewing the above draft's security considerations section 8, and thinking about possible threat models. Suppose a rogue DVB-RCS subscriber cracked the terminal's software and took control of its behavior. From what I could discern, in the absence of point to point link layer encryption that adversary could eavesdrop on any peer subscriber's IP communications, correct? Haitham: Sorry George this is not correct. If encryption is performed in the MPE layer (which encapsulates the IP packets), then the hacker will need the encryption key to see any user data in these PME packets. Let's assume the hapless peer subscriber is Joe Consumer, for whom IPsec and TLS are random letters in the alphabet. This scenario could be a security exposure similar to what early 802.11b had, which garnered lots of negative press and rev'ing to fix that standard. Haitham: This is true of any wireless link. This is the reason that the draft mentions using network layer (IPsec), transport (such as SSL) or even application layer (such as secure XML, etc..). Therefore such solution should be encouraged for users of wireless links (with or without link layer security). As currently written, the section 8.1 leaves it up to the Access Network Operator to optionally set up a link layer security service. Yet there is insufficient definition of what that security service is, and how it would be integrated with the IP layer related services, such as DVB address resolution. Haitham: These procedures are defined in standards such as the DVB-CA (conditional access in broadcast applications such as TV) and DVB-RCS (two-way satellite communications). I suppose we can add a sentence to say the DVB security procedures should be followed. By the way, currently there is some work in the DVB community to upgrade the security procedures, but this is only early days. Therefore IPsec, SSL, etc should be encouraged. Finally, this group can not force specific security requirement on such networks. Best regards Haitham It seems odd to imply that the IPDVB architecture would depend on those link layer security services, yet not even name them by reference and mandate one. I would have thought the IPDVB architecture would require at least _one_ of those possible choices _must_ be implemented as part of the IETF standard. Otherwise, no two IPDVB implementations could inter-operate unless they happened to understand the same Access Network Operator's link layer security service. I seem to recall that there was an e-mail thread on this list wrt/ security last spring, but its conclusion didn't seem to account for the above security risks and inter-operability issue... hth, George On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > This note starts the ipdvb WG Last Call for comments for the WG document > named below: > > draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > > The last call will end on 29/10/2002. > > Members of the IETF are asked to read the draft and send any issues, > comments, or corrections to this mailing list. The WGLC procedure is the > last chance for this working group to modify/correct this z. > > Please do forward any comments to the list. > > Best wishes, > > Gorry Fairhurst > (ipdvb WG Chair) > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Oct 29 16:48:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10036 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNdtw-0001cF-TO for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:03:14 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9TKCL20018846 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:12:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id i9TKCKpP018845 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:12:21 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtp-out2.oct.nac.net (smtp-out2.oct.nac.net [209.123.233.212]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9TKBRIm018817 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:11:28 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 99472 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2004 16:11:26 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.oct.nac.net) (209.123.233.241) by smtp-out2.oct.nac.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 2004 16:11:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 80317 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2004 16:11:27 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO nsx.garage) (gmgross@66.246.164.82) by mail1.oct.nac.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 2004 16:11:27 -0400 Received: (from gmg@localhost) by nsx.garage (8.11.2/8.11.2) id i9THaBf29348; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:36:11 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: George Gross To: ipdvb Subject: Re: FW: security considerations wrt/ draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-To: ipdvb-subscribed-users@mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 48472a944c87678fcfe8db15ffecdfff Hi Haitham, inline below.... On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Cruickshank HS Dr (Electronic Eng) wrote: > > > Hi George and all, > > I like to add my comment to this threat about the security > considerations. See comments in-line: > > Hi, > > I was reviewing the above draft's security considerations > section > 8, and thinking about possible threat models. > > Suppose a rogue DVB-RCS subscriber cracked the terminal's > software > and took control of its behavior. From what I could discern, in the > absence of point to point link layer encryption that adversary could > eavesdrop on any peer subscriber's IP communications, correct? > > Haitham: Sorry George this is not correct. If encryption is performed > in the MPE layer (which encapsulates the IP packets), then the hacker > will need the encryption key to see any user data in these PME packets. Well yes, but I did say "in the absence of point to point link layer encryption". If MPE link layer encryption does point-to-point encryption between head-end transmitter and subscriber (and vica-versa) that would be secure. But as currently written, the IPDVB arch allows that service to be optional and it does not even refer to any MPE link layer encryption standard. Further, if the MPE link layer encryption used a group key then that would be insecure in this attack scenario, as cracking the subscriber terminal would compromise the group key. > > Let's assume the hapless peer subscriber is Joe Consumer, for whom IPsec > and TLS > are random letters in the alphabet. This scenario could be a security > exposure similar to what early 802.11b had, which garnered lots of > negative press and rev'ing to fix that standard. > > Haitham: This is true of any wireless link. This is the reason that > the draft mentions using network layer (IPsec), transport (such as SSL) > or even application layer (such as secure XML, etc..). Therefore such > solution should be encouraged for users of wireless links (with or > without link layer security). I think we may have mismatched assumptions about the sophistication of the IPDVB users. In a public IPDVB access network, used by consumers, the burden of securing the network's first hop falls on the shoulders of the Access Network Operator, not the consumer. Yet the IPDVB architecture as currently written makes that first hop security optional, or at best vendor-specific. > > As currently written, the section 8.1 leaves it up to the Access > Network Operator to optionally set up a link layer security service. Yet > there is insufficient definition of what that security service is, and > how > it would be integrated with the IP layer related services, such as DVB > address resolution. > > Haitham: These procedures are defined in standards such as the DVB-CA > (conditional access in broadcast applications such as TV) and DVB-RCS > (two-way satellite communications). At the least, the IPDVB arch document should identify its requirements on these security services: point-to-point encryption between head-end and individual subscriber, source authentication when binding IP addresses and MAC addresses, mutual authentication between the subscriber terminal and head-end, etc. BTW, isn't DVB-CA primarily a broadcast video encryption scheme? > I suppose we can add a sentence to > say the DVB security procedures should be followed. By the way, > currently there is some work in the DVB community to upgrade the > security procedures, but this is only early days. when you say "DVB community" did you mean a SDO? or a private consortia? are drafts of that work available publically? > Therefore IPsec, SSL, > etc should be encouraged. Finally, this group can not force specific > security requirement on such networks. ummm... as you know, the IETF has alot of history around this topic: RFC3365, RFC3552, RFC3631 so it is true that this working group can't force anyone to *use* DVB security mechanisms, but neither can this working group expect to *create* an insecure IETF IPDVB standard. The IESG will bounce it. The way things stand at the moment in this document, an IPDVB vendor does not have to implement any security standards. They can produce products that only transmit cleartext and still they can assert that they are IETF IPDVB "standards compliant". Further, any two vendors that do implement a DVB security service are unlikely to inter-operate, since none was mandated as a must implement. As I expressed in another e-mail in this thread, there is a case to be made for an industry-wide IPDVB security service: - superior security, due to peer review by the IETF community, - inter-operability, fostering economies of scale like that seen for 802 wireless This could be a DVB link-layer service or it could a MSEC layer-3 overlay. The former option makes this group's work dependent on another SDO. The latter option could be advanced by this working group in cooperation with MSEC... br, George > Best regards > Haitham > > > > It seems odd to imply that the IPDVB architecture > would depend on those link layer security services, yet not even name > them > by reference and mandate one. > > I would have thought the IPDVB architecture would require at > least > _one_ of those possible choices _must_ be implemented as part of the > IETF > standard. Otherwise, no two IPDVB implementations could inter-operate > unless they happened to understand the same Access Network Operator's > link > layer security service. > > I seem to recall that there was an e-mail thread on this list > wrt/ > security last spring, but its conclusion didn't seem to account for the > above security risks and inter-operability issue... > > hth, > George > > > On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > > > > This note starts the ipdvb WG Last Call for comments for the WG > document > > named below: > > > > draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-01.txt > > > > The last call will end on 29/10/2002. > > > > Members of the IETF are asked to read the draft and send any issues, > > comments, or corrections to this mailing list. The WGLC procedure is > the > > last chance for this working group to modify/correct this z. > > > > Please do forward any comments to the list. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Gorry Fairhurst > > (ipdvb WG Chair) > > > > > >