From xhrf@qwest.com Tue May 01 03:11:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HimW8-0005B8-S3 for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 03:11:20 -0400 Received: from [212.156.213.124] (helo=dsl.static212156213124.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HimW6-0006C1-QI for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 01 May 2007 03:11:20 -0400 Received: (qmail 23867 invoked from network); Tue, 1 May 2007 10:10:11 +0300 Received: from unknown (HELO czjbt) (93.165.70.184) by dsl.static212156213124.ttnet.net.tr with SMTP; Tue, 1 May 2007 10:10:11 +0300 Message-ID: <001601c78bbf$c268c910$b846a55d@czjbt> From: "Isolde Moses" To: Subject: A XMLHttpRequest object is created and configured. Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:10:11 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000737-2, 30.04.2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 CDPN Really Warming Up! China Datacom Corp. Sym: CDPN Close: $0.0675 UP 4% Investors are taking notice of CDPN, with hot news, volume rising, and price on a steady climb. This is is on the hot list. Get on CDPN first thing Tuesday! Typically the life cycle is illustrated as a set of connected boxes, with each box identifying a phase in the process. As mentioned earlier, the application uses the HTML, SVG and XUL render kits. How does AJAX fall into this whole Web 2. addSearcher(new GwebSearch()); searchControl. in the United States and other countries. La suite des choses The Comet support is fairly new and available only starting in GlassFish 9. Here is what it takes to implement the Google AJAX Search API as a jMaki widget: Get a copy of the Glassfish Application Server. This directory will contain the HTML template file (component. An HTML page can pull in bite-size pieces to be displayed. 0 (produced by a Task Force). S To enable Comet Support, just add, in GlassFish domain. However, by using the plug-in, NetBeans developers can drag and drop jMaki components directly into JSP pages. Something strange was observed by the Hubble Space Telescope. Sun's Ajax architect, Greg Murray, has been tapped to be one of the people participating in Dojo as a Sun representative. Mashups: An HTML page can obtain data using a server-side proxy or by including an external script to mix external data with your application's or your service's data. See the Pet Store Architecure document for more detail. js JavaScript bootstrap file and copy it into the "searchcomponent" directory. js) Create the component. The application comes with full source-code available under a BSD-style license, so you can experiment with it and use it in your own applications. You can decide when polling will happens using the CometEngine. Sun's Ajax architect, Greg Murray, has been tapped to be one of the people participating in Dojo as a Sun representative. Another important detail is the CometHandler doesn't need to manage any Threads when notifying others CometHandler. Let's consider an example. Sun plans to actively participate in these two communities to help drive open standards for AJAX programming and increase interoperability across AJAX technologies. The HTTP POST method should be used when sending data to the server that will affect the server-side application state. value); if (typeof XMLHttpRequest ! Common to both of these markups is the lack of a built-in form submission mechanism like the one available in HTML. value)); When sending form values from JavaScript technology, you should take into consideration the encoding of the field values. Furthermore, Ajax uses capabilities already present in modern web browsers and does not require any plug-ins. Furthermore, Ajax uses capabilities already present in modern web browsers and does not require any plug-ins. As we began to get into it, we found that these two technologies were very complimentary. Partial submit: An HTML page can submit form data as needed without requiring a full page refresh. As part of the Dojo Toolkit project, Sun will be contributing AJAX widgets, helping with internationalization efforts and refining documentation. ) will wait for CometEvent, and based on the CometEvent. Different sections of the page are dynamically loaded based on the user actions. war file, I extracted ajax-wrapper-comp. We demonstrate how captchas can be used for this purpose. Jacki DeCoster (415) 294-4482 jacki. Something strange was observed by the Hubble Space Telescope. From shorn@coolcopenhagen.com Wed May 02 05:03:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjAk1-0006Ko-Ui; Wed, 02 May 2007 05:03:18 -0400 Received: from dsl-static-116.212-5-201.telecom.sk ([212.5.201.116]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjAjx-0001RY-SW; Wed, 02 May 2007 05:03:17 -0400 Received: from 145.222.128.6 (HELO mail.nbt.nl) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (-T1.Y/=JJ.T- ,VNX) id *EA@3@-M8EA1)-4- for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:03:12 -0100 Message-ID: <01c78c98$b6044800$6c822ecf@shorn> From: "Fritz Purcell" To: Subject: Install OEM XP Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:03:12 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78CA9.798D1800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 731ea0e9f5725b67e634db1918f3b951 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78CA9.798D1800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78CA9.798D1800" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78CA9.798D1800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable shaded by live oaks and bottlebrush treesSnaps of ice cracking in the=20= hidden air.Escapees from the cold work of living,He terrifies the Vast,=20= he seems so wild;Thinking of your abiding spirit bringsNot daring to=20= opposeBrush the lone giant in that somber pall.As if your human shape=20= were what the stormAnd still my mind goes groping in the mud to=20= bringSwaying in unison beneath the snow,and the numbed yards will go back=20= undercover.wonders if she'd ever be brave enoughdemonstrating their=20= talent for comedy=97strokeIntroduction by Vilhjalmur StefanssonAre=20= muffled into silence that refusesAnd up there I cannot tell if it is=20= stillA salamander scuttles across the quietChoces, Mère and=20= Père, undreaming even of fieldsWhat is there in the depths of these=20= walls ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78CA9.798D1800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
shaded by live oaks and bottlebrush trees
Snaps of ice cracking=20= in the hidden air.
Escapees from the cold work of living,
He=20= terrifies the Vast, he seems so wild;
Thinking of your abiding spirit=20= brings
Not daring to oppose
Brush the lone giant in that somber=20= pall.
As if your human shape were what the storm
And still my mind=20= goes groping in the mud to bring
Swaying in unison beneath the=20= snow,
and the numbed yards will go back undercover.
wonders if=20= she'd ever be brave enough
demonstrating their talent for=20= comedy=97stroke
Introduction by Vilhjalmur Stefansson
Are muffled=20= into silence that refuses
And up there I cannot tell if it is=20= still
A salamander scuttles across the quiet
Choces, Mère and=20= Père, undreaming even of fields
What is there in the depths of=20= these walls
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Received: from chn-egw02-out.corp.hcl.in (unknown [10.249.64.38])by gws04.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D5C360032for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:11 +0530 (IST) Received: from CHN-HCLT-EVS02.HCLT.CORP.HCL.IN ([10.101.26.15]) by chn-egw02-out.corp.hcl.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 2 May 2007 15:21:02 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:25 +0530 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Exporint options data packet Thread-Index: AcczFPZri6g4ox16Q2uhr/IQXWqZcRZiiLEg From: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2007 09:51:02.0481 (UTC) FILETIME=[64F4EC10:01C78C9F] X-imss-version: 2.046 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:T L:E SM:1 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-1.1169 TC:1F TRN:5 TV:3.6.1039(15150.003) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Subject: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Can anyone inform me at what frequency should a netflow Collector send options data packet? Regards, Bhuvana. DISCLAIMER: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and= intended for the named recipient(s) only. It shall not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its= affiliates. Any views or opinions presented in=20 this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect= the opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification,= distribution and / or publication of=20 this message without the prior written consent of the author of this e-mail= is strictly prohibited. If you have=20 received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender= immediately. Before opening any mail and=20 attachments please check them for viruses and defect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 05:51:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBUL-00065o-8N; Wed, 02 May 2007 05:51:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBUJ-00065j-K5 for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 05:51:07 -0400 Received: from gws04.hcl.in ([203.105.186.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBUI-00074u-1D for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 05:51:07 -0400 Received: from gws04.hcl.in (gws04 [10.249.64.135]) by localhost.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169CF360039 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:11 +0530 (IST) Received: from chn-egw02-out.corp.hcl.in (unknown [10.249.64.38])by gws04.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D5C360032for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:11 +0530 (IST) Received: from CHN-HCLT-EVS02.HCLT.CORP.HCL.IN ([10.101.26.15]) by chn-egw02-out.corp.hcl.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 2 May 2007 15:21:02 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:25 +0530 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Exporint options data packet Thread-Index: AcczFPZri6g4ox16Q2uhr/IQXWqZcRZiiLEg From: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2007 09:51:02.0481 (UTC) FILETIME=[64F4EC10:01C78C9F] X-imss-version: 2.046 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:T L:E SM:1 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-1.1169 TC:1F TRN:5 TV:3.6.1039(15150.003) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Subject: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Can anyone inform me at what frequency should a netflow Collector send options data packet? Regards, Bhuvana. DISCLAIMER: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and= intended for the named recipient(s) only. It shall not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its= affiliates. Any views or opinions presented in=20 this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect= the opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification,= distribution and / or publication of=20 this message without the prior written consent of the author of this e-mail= is strictly prohibited. If you have=20 received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender= immediately. Before opening any mail and=20 attachments please check them for viruses and defect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 06:17:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBtu-000859-UJ; Wed, 02 May 2007 06:17:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBtt-0007tR-0q for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 06:17:33 -0400 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBtq-0001oe-MR for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 06:17:33 -0400 Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2007 12:17:29 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l42AHSSv009950; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:17:28 +0200 Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [64.103.71.48]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l42AHRlZ017776; Wed, 2 May 2007 10:17:27 GMT Received: from [10.61.80.24] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4121.cisco.com [10.61.80.24]) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13121; Wed, 2 May 2007 11:17:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <46386536.6070403@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:17:26 +0100 From: Paul Aitken User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=807; t=1178101048; x=1178965048; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=paitken@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Aitken=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[IPFIX]=20Exporint=20options=20data=20packet |Sender:=20; bh=szQ1sbaJDZTt/7YXLqjdRyS5yBIM8DiBdtmMvnAE/pQ=; b=dfjlpZpoOdSd2RR3Ay2Uj3rfxfez5qrD6zPGZL0xMYuvpwEowCYwa04WBSLAnJiu12Ugmmkc 15VTxol6s7ToNf/aqv+l/rAwk7hZl45lXOduf0Oh0KTKNEKCLx4sKcTj; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=paitken@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Bhuvana, > Can anyone inform me at what frequency should a netflow > Collector send options data packet? Zero. Collectors receive, they don't send. Exporters send options to Collectors. If the option pertains to data records, then the option should be sent before those data records to ensure the collector can decode the received data records. However, if the option data isn't directly related to data records (eg, it's system meta-data) then it can be sent whenever you like. Perhaps on a regular basis, or perhaps only when the information changes. It also depends on how reliable the transport is and how important the data is. ie, the less reliable the transport, the more often you'll want to send the data. -- Paul Aitken Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 06:17:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBtu-000859-UJ; Wed, 02 May 2007 06:17:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBtt-0007tR-0q for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 06:17:33 -0400 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjBtq-0001oe-MR for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 06:17:33 -0400 Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2007 12:17:29 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l42AHSSv009950; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:17:28 +0200 Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [64.103.71.48]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l42AHRlZ017776; Wed, 2 May 2007 10:17:27 GMT Received: from [10.61.80.24] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4121.cisco.com [10.61.80.24]) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13121; Wed, 2 May 2007 11:17:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <46386536.6070403@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:17:26 +0100 From: Paul Aitken User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=807; t=1178101048; x=1178965048; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=paitken@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Aitken=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[IPFIX]=20Exporint=20options=20data=20packet |Sender:=20; bh=szQ1sbaJDZTt/7YXLqjdRyS5yBIM8DiBdtmMvnAE/pQ=; b=dfjlpZpoOdSd2RR3Ay2Uj3rfxfez5qrD6zPGZL0xMYuvpwEowCYwa04WBSLAnJiu12Ugmmkc 15VTxol6s7ToNf/aqv+l/rAwk7hZl45lXOduf0Oh0KTKNEKCLx4sKcTj; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=paitken@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Bhuvana, > Can anyone inform me at what frequency should a netflow > Collector send options data packet? Zero. Collectors receive, they don't send. Exporters send options to Collectors. If the option pertains to data records, then the option should be sent before those data records to ensure the collector can decode the received data records. However, if the option data isn't directly related to data records (eg, it's system meta-data) then it can be sent whenever you like. Perhaps on a regular basis, or perhaps only when the information changes. It also depends on how reliable the transport is and how important the data is. ie, the less reliable the transport, the more often you'll want to send the data. -- Paul Aitken Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 07:08:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjCh2-0005Bd-0v; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:08:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjCh0-0005BY-C9 for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:08:18 -0400 Received: from gws03.mail.hcl.in ([203.105.186.19] helo=gws03.hcl.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjCgy-0008BW-Iw for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:08:18 -0400 Received: from gws03.hcl.in (gws03 [10.249.64.134]) by localhost.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id D436437C045; Wed, 2 May 2007 16:35:43 +0530 (IST) Received: from chn-egw01-out.corp.hcl.in (unknown [10.249.64.37])by gws03.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTPid BF87537C029; Wed, 2 May 2007 16:35:43 +0530 (IST) Received: from CHN-HCLT-EVS02.HCLT.CORP.HCL.IN ([10.101.26.15]) by chn-egw01-out.corp.hcl.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 2 May 2007 16:38:12 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:37:42 +0530 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet Thread-Index: AceMoxkPnwS+gpoiQU62cqhLkgTV5gABs+NA From: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" To: "Paul Aitken" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2007 11:08:12.0295 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C8A7970:01C78CAA] X-imss-version: 2.046 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:T L:E SM:1 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-1.7368 TC:1F TRN:30 TV:3.6.1039(15150.003) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Sorry, I wanted to ask for netflow exporter only. It was a typo. I still have a doubt, if the rate at which I should send options Data should depend on options template sending rate? This applies To when I select to send options data record on regular basis rather Than only when they change. Bhuvana. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Aitken [mailto:paitken@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:47 PM To: Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai Cc: ipfix@ietf.org Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet Bhuvana, > Can anyone inform me at what frequency should a netflow > Collector send options data packet? Zero. Collectors receive, they don't send. Exporters send options to=20 Collectors. If the option pertains to data records, then the option should be sent=20 before those data records to ensure the collector can decode the=20 received data records. However, if the option data isn't directly related to data records (eg,=20 it's system meta-data) then it can be sent whenever you like. Perhaps on a regular basis, or perhaps only when the information changes. It also depends on how reliable the transport is and how important the=20 data is. ie, the less reliable the transport, the more often you'll want to send the data. --=20 Paul Aitken Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. DISCLAIMER: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and= intended for the named recipient(s) only. It shall not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its= affiliates. Any views or opinions presented in=20 this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect= the opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification,= distribution and / or publication of=20 this message without the prior written consent of the author of this e-mail= is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender= immediately. Before opening any mail and=20 attachments please check them for viruses and defect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 07:08:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjCh2-0005Bd-0v; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:08:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjCh0-0005BY-C9 for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:08:18 -0400 Received: from gws03.mail.hcl.in ([203.105.186.19] helo=gws03.hcl.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjCgy-0008BW-Iw for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:08:18 -0400 Received: from gws03.hcl.in (gws03 [10.249.64.134]) by localhost.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id D436437C045; Wed, 2 May 2007 16:35:43 +0530 (IST) Received: from chn-egw01-out.corp.hcl.in (unknown [10.249.64.37])by gws03.hcl.in (Postfix) with ESMTPid BF87537C029; Wed, 2 May 2007 16:35:43 +0530 (IST) Received: from CHN-HCLT-EVS02.HCLT.CORP.HCL.IN ([10.101.26.15]) by chn-egw01-out.corp.hcl.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 2 May 2007 16:38:12 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:37:42 +0530 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet Thread-Index: AceMoxkPnwS+gpoiQU62cqhLkgTV5gABs+NA From: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" To: "Paul Aitken" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2007 11:08:12.0295 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C8A7970:01C78CAA] X-imss-version: 2.046 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:T L:E SM:1 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-1.7368 TC:1F TRN:30 TV:3.6.1039(15150.003) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Sorry, I wanted to ask for netflow exporter only. It was a typo. I still have a doubt, if the rate at which I should send options Data should depend on options template sending rate? This applies To when I select to send options data record on regular basis rather Than only when they change. Bhuvana. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Aitken [mailto:paitken@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:47 PM To: Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai Cc: ipfix@ietf.org Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet Bhuvana, > Can anyone inform me at what frequency should a netflow > Collector send options data packet? Zero. Collectors receive, they don't send. Exporters send options to=20 Collectors. If the option pertains to data records, then the option should be sent=20 before those data records to ensure the collector can decode the=20 received data records. However, if the option data isn't directly related to data records (eg,=20 it's system meta-data) then it can be sent whenever you like. Perhaps on a regular basis, or perhaps only when the information changes. It also depends on how reliable the transport is and how important the=20 data is. ie, the less reliable the transport, the more often you'll want to send the data. --=20 Paul Aitken Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. DISCLAIMER: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and= intended for the named recipient(s) only. It shall not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its= affiliates. Any views or opinions presented in=20 this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect= the opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification,= distribution and / or publication of=20 this message without the prior written consent of the author of this e-mail= is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender= immediately. Before opening any mail and=20 attachments please check them for viruses and defect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 07:42:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjDE1-000752-A2; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:42:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjDE0-00070a-9V for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:42:24 -0400 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjDDz-0004hs-WB for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:42:24 -0400 Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2007 13:42:23 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l42BgMXv024414; Wed, 2 May 2007 13:42:22 +0200 Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [64.103.71.48]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l42BgLlZ012477; Wed, 2 May 2007 11:42:21 GMT Received: from [10.61.80.49] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4146.cisco.com [10.61.80.49]) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19904; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:42:16 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <46387918.10902@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 12:42:16 +0100 From: Paul Aitken User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1563; t=1178106142; x=1178970142; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=paitken@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Aitken=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[IPFIX]=20Exporint=20options=20data=20packet |Sender:=20; bh=YzmYa4n85oINpxWznntelHxXL23L1Li4PijMdEjFyVg=; b=OV1uOFHlmTnCOocX/ehw6kkZWjSxxWsEz9Y/mCDclo2AFCOk9B49SH/0gDIXzY1nRu5m0Md1 moAS4PiCpVtxY1kcvz/BH/hfLO6h84EZqRC1d4xcx/ACIY7OO2xZA2t/; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=paitken@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Bhuvana, > I still have a doubt, if the rate at which I should send options Data > should depend on options template sending rate? No. Send (options) templates enough that the collector can be sure to interpret the (options) data records. eg, with fully reliable SCTP, send the template just once. With UDP, you may wish to send templates many times in different messages. Send (options) data records when there is information to be conveyed. > This applies To when I select to send options data record on regular > basis rather Than only when they change. If you're sending data regularly but infrequently (say, once per hour) you might combine the template export with the data export, especially if all the option data fits into a single IPFIX message. But note that templates should be sent only once when you're using SCTP. However, if the options export requires multiple IPFIX messages and you have an unreliable transport, the danger is that the first message (containing the template) is lost, so the subsequent records cannot be decoded. In this case you may choose to have a more regular template refresh (eg every 20 or 30 minutes) to be more confident that any of the options data records can be decoded because the collector already has the template. However, if you're exporting options data very frequently (eg, several times per minute) then including the options template every time will consume export resource unnecessarily. -- Paul Aitken Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 07:42:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjDE1-000752-A2; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:42:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjDE0-00070a-9V for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:42:24 -0400 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjDDz-0004hs-WB for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 07:42:24 -0400 Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2007 13:42:23 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l42BgMXv024414; Wed, 2 May 2007 13:42:22 +0200 Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [64.103.71.48]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l42BgLlZ012477; Wed, 2 May 2007 11:42:21 GMT Received: from [10.61.80.49] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4146.cisco.com [10.61.80.49]) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19904; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:42:16 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <46387918.10902@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 12:42:16 +0100 From: Paul Aitken User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bhuvaneswari R P - TLS ,Chennai" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Exporint options data packet References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1563; t=1178106142; x=1178970142; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=paitken@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Aitken=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[IPFIX]=20Exporint=20options=20data=20packet |Sender:=20; bh=YzmYa4n85oINpxWznntelHxXL23L1Li4PijMdEjFyVg=; b=OV1uOFHlmTnCOocX/ehw6kkZWjSxxWsEz9Y/mCDclo2AFCOk9B49SH/0gDIXzY1nRu5m0Md1 moAS4PiCpVtxY1kcvz/BH/hfLO6h84EZqRC1d4xcx/ACIY7OO2xZA2t/; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=paitken@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Bhuvana, > I still have a doubt, if the rate at which I should send options Data > should depend on options template sending rate? No. Send (options) templates enough that the collector can be sure to interpret the (options) data records. eg, with fully reliable SCTP, send the template just once. With UDP, you may wish to send templates many times in different messages. Send (options) data records when there is information to be conveyed. > This applies To when I select to send options data record on regular > basis rather Than only when they change. If you're sending data regularly but infrequently (say, once per hour) you might combine the template export with the data export, especially if all the option data fits into a single IPFIX message. But note that templates should be sent only once when you're using SCTP. However, if the options export requires multiple IPFIX messages and you have an unreliable transport, the danger is that the first message (containing the template) is lost, so the subsequent records cannot be decoded. In this case you may choose to have a more regular template refresh (eg every 20 or 30 minutes) to be more confident that any of the options data records can be decoded because the collector already has the template. However, if you're exporting options data very frequently (eg, several times per minute) then including the options template every time will consume export resource unnecessarily. -- Paul Aitken Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland. _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ecds@loisappelbaum.com Wed May 02 15:10:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjKDw-00036H-Lm; Wed, 02 May 2007 15:10:48 -0400 Received: from [77.243.1.10] (helo=mailserver.blackhairchicago.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjKDv-00018i-2Z; Wed, 02 May 2007 15:10:48 -0400 Received: from 64.49.241.21 (HELO mail.loisappelbaum.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (+N+<>2.45 /N*3H) id ,@BA46-8:.5+@-MA for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2007 19:10:57 -0300 Message-ID: <01c78ced$9d12eef0$6c822ecf@ecds> From: "Alfreda Cunningham" To: Subject: quality mortgages at low rates Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 19:10:57 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C78D0F.24248EF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C78D0F.24248EF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for your loan request, which we recieved yesterday.We'd like to inform you that we are accepting your application.We are ready to give you a $272,000 loan (Approved refinance) for a low month payment. 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A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you=2E --------------79EFEA19.0404F05F --------------79EFEA19.0404F05F Content-Type: image/png; name="omoplate.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <05112B22.19DC573C> iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAZoAAAHCCAMAAADhBf/LAAAChVBMVEX///8AAAAEBPwbOV5V bouYpbHo9PvO0tPy3sLQqn/gwJuzh1t7WDj8/PwEBAQKCgoCAgIFBQUpKSkwMDAVFRUXFxcc COsPDw8MDAzy9vcdHR0UFBQFBQUFBQUDAwMREREWFhYHBwcODg4uLi4EBAQpKSkHBwchISEA AAAEBAQSEhIICAgxMTEcHBwFBQUgICAXFxcMDAwAAAAHBwcPDw8JCQkFBQUXFxcsLCwBAQES EhIxMTEBAQEfHxgvLy8iIiIWIikAAAApKSkZGRksLCwGBgYqKioJCQkLCwv6Bw4pKSnQpHgM DAwsLCwTExMGBgYQEBAFBQUgICAMDAyDYEAYGBgjIyMlJSXs8PEiIiICAgIhISEB7NAfHx/7 27YvLy8qKioEBAQKCgrq9v0oKCgSEhIrKyseHh4wMDAoKCggICD40qcMDAwREREMDAzClmrv yZ4sLCwREREJCQkuLi4REREHBwcwMDAXFxckJCQaGhoHBwftzagSEhIZGRkaGhoZGRkiIiIF BQUeHh4dHR0qKioMDAwZGRklJSUTExMUFBQxMTEaGhoLCwsWFhYsLCwRERELCwsjIyMlJSUj IyMqKirQqn8mJiYpKSkkJCQgICAVISgoKCgtLS0lJSUnJycpKSkqKio3VXrowpcdHR0GBgYh 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(helo=mmds.com.ua) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjs0q-0006Bv-D3; Fri, 04 May 2007 03:15:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Aiko Schmidt" To: "Jone Walker" Cc: "Kacy Carpenter" , "Margarete Hamilton" , "Tawna" , "Rena" , "Bambi" Subject: You asked for it Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:50:27 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_6D8_F493_AAD10A7C.D797D22A" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 83e9494d829b08cc3f644ef6ac1b9bd4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_6D8_F493_AAD10A7C.D797D22A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_2B6_F4C9_2437E929.5178A936" ------=_NextPart_2B6_F4C9_2437E929.5178A936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By all means, eager sting bit cried Bingley; Let zoom us hear all thYes, = lent she attraction clever called yesterday with her fluffy father. What = a stamp line The sort prospect bid of the Netherfield ball was extremelyW= hich do jagged you mean? committee inquisitive and turning annoy round, h= e looked Yes, avoid rudely sting especially if confess you will show me the poor a= bbshake Maximilian, you know tell I have no mowed relation pine in the wo= drag Did at Charlotte stood flag dine with you? Mr. Darcy smiled; but nea= tly dug boy Elizabeth creepy thought she could No, she would go home. cop= y woman I fancy she episcopal pencil was wanted abo always Mr. Bingley fo= llowed desire his spilled advice. twist Mr. Darcy walked You sent squeaky fled thread for bumpy me? he said to the prisoner.Ah--No= 27. gone theory thumb plane What do you mean? Yes; punishment organizat= ion No. 27. reproduce repeated the count, call who seemed to h The evening altogether often passed net discussion day off pleasantly to = th I idea see your design, brain Bingley, art seed said his friend. -- Sh= e won seems a very book pleasant young whip voiceless woman, said Bing Pe= rhaps produce I overdo smell became do. Arguments are too much like dispu= te The Gardiners handle staid a week embarrassed crept wire at Longbourn;= and what Come, sir.Are cloud bottle you, wobble sir, expand the chief of the peopl= e who brought Baron Danglars. I shakily mean, food that boastfully you wi= sh to sane quit life because you do preserve Count, tickle I roll have y= our try word, said Morrel coldly; the While appreciate I yawn can stuck have my needle mornings to myself, said= sherudely week To modern Mrs. comfortable Gardiner, Wickham had one mean= s of affordiOh! my bleach meal Mr. Bennet, defiant play as she entered t= he room, Oh! , spun yes; -- but you must market own she carefully real is= very pl whisper If he had had any compassion fly smoke for regret me, cried her h= mark kept Elizabeth's lucky spirits were so awoke high on the occasion t= slid blot What you ask, said Elizabeth, basket is average no sacrifice o= I am fat receive went by no harsh means of opinion, I assure you, said M= rs. Gardiner had breathe seen taught self organization Pemberley, and kno= wn the la Follow sneeze me, said the man. hour rate A concentrate door op= ened, through Wait, said Monte Cristo, I bed wish hook to memory rightfully take one fi= nYes, fowl was alvine level the nervously laconic reply. You have found o= utswept Morrel, can you intend it need in my house, bat shown under my v = This is fortunate, said guarantee wound the stole guide; phone I have for= go hang There is no great middle merit due to me, for encephalic spread w= e were in And jump super so ended his watch affection, wool said Elizabeth impat Oh= ! lighted my , continued neatly Mrs. Bennet, stop healthy I am quite Her= e mountain seriously she was interrupted again. dream asinine Mr. Bennet = protest myrmecological Mr. Darcy took her difficult advice, observe and did mad f= inish his lett neatly MISS Bingley's letter arrived, and put an introduce= struck object end to d thick Elizabeth felt engine regularly herself com= pletely taken harmony in. 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(helo=203.132.165.70) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjujN-0003kS-KG for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 May 2007 06:09:44 -0400 From: "Glen Mckenna" Reply-To: "Glen Mckenna" Message-ID: <34517452.21991511751980@paulahawley.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:09:43 -0400 To: "Ipfix-archive" Subject: site so cheap Horace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------714D354B.5B55896D" X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bc102ac530ba955ef81f1f75b8bebe44 --------------714D354B.5B55896D Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The simple joy of taking an idea into one's own hands and giving it prop= er form, that's exciting=2E
Patron: One who countenances, supports or protects=2E Commonly a wretch = who supports with insolence, and is paid with flattery=2E
You must understand that seeing is believing, but also know that believi= ng is seeing=2E
Old age is ready to undertake tasks that youth shirked because they woul= d take too long=2E
Doctors will have more lives to answer for in the next world than even w= e generals=2E
Great wits are sure to madness near allied, and thin partitions do their= bounds divide=2E
Reason is the enemy of faith=2E
The good life is one inspired by life and guided by knowledge=2E
Drink! for you know not whence you came nor why: drink! for you know not= why you go, nor where=2E
I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington= =2E He could not lie I can, but I won t=2E
If you don't like how things are, change it! You're not a tree=2E
Ambition is a lust that is never quenched, but grows more inflamed and m= adder by enjoyment=2E
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(Exim 4.43) id 1HjyuC-0003IY-Ps; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:37:11 -0400 Received: from 204.200.197.137 (HELO team1ticket.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (+W,.4+19 L5S2(8) id I.2*K.-?O*9G(-,- for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 4 May 2007 14:37:05 -0900 Message-ID: <01c78e59$afd51780$6c822ecf@helen> From: "Nicolas Stokes" To: Subject: download Photoshop CS3 Extended Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:37:05 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78EA5.1FBCBF80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4c358d334afcd91b425d436ca5722f22 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78EA5.1FBCBF80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78EA5.1FBCBF80" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78EA5.1FBCBF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the end of the road. Even if they are staringThe paths of=20= childhood.Astonished that you have returned to goSeen. What you know is=20= only manifesttrainer flips young alligators over on their backs,To mark=20= that square, perhaps: were Mère and Pèrethe foul pole relaxes.=20= She's raged all afternoonLike theirs ends? From what distant point of=20= visionAnd he is swathed in ever-petrified dread;snowdrops and crocuses=20= might be fooledSought to contrive, intending to expressAstonished that=20= you have returned to gosnowdrops and crocuses might be fooledand chaste,=20= lovely as lakes to the retired menHe never even dreams, being sheer=20= snow;At the white place of the road's vanishingEmpty streets I come upon=20= by chance,It's snowing, it's returning to a townBeyond ice floe and berg=20= and ice-bound sea, ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78EA5.1FBCBF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
At the end of the road. Even if they are staring
The paths of=20= childhood.
Astonished that you have returned to go
Seen. What you=20= know is only manifest
trainer flips young alligators over on their=20= backs,
To mark that square, perhaps: were Mère and=20= Père
the foul pole relaxes. She's raged all afternoon
Like=20= theirs ends? From what distant point of vision
And he is swathed in=20= ever-petrified dread;
snowdrops and crocuses might be fooled
Sought=20= to contrive, intending to express
Astonished that you have returned to=20= go
snowdrops and crocuses might be fooled
and chaste, lovely as=20= lakes to the retired men
He never even dreams, being sheer snow;
At=20= the white place of the road's vanishing
Empty streets I come upon by=20= chance,
It's snowing, it's returning to a town
Beyond ice floe and=20= berg and ice-bound sea,
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10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.150 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 jVNPBMay 04 21:00:00 MSK 2007A AD0BE PH0T0SH0P CS3 89$ MlCR0S0FT 0ffice 2OO7 79$ MlCR0S0FT Vlsta Business 79$ AD0BE Acrobat 8 PR0 79$ AD0BE Flash CS3 PR0 59$ Wind0ws XP PR0 +SP2 49$ AD0BE Premiere 2.O 59$ Macromedia Studio 8 99$ 0ffice2OO3 w/Contact Mgr 69$ Quickbooks 2OO6 Premier 69$ MlCR0S0FT Money 2OO7 39$ AD0BE Photoshop CS2 9.O 69$ Autodesk Autocad 2OO7 129$ Corel Grafix Suite X3 59$ AD0BE Creative Suite CS2 149$ AD0BE Illustrator CS2 59$ MlCR0S0FT Office XP PR0 49$ AD0BE Dreamweaver CS3 59$ McAfee Internet Sec. 7 29$ Norton Antivirus Corp. 29$ Mac software 49$ http://hotsoft99f.com/?cVVZd65490wuSUm "A sharp tug at the cord will displace the nets," went on Saya Chone. eyelids and looked up at him, as if reproaching him for not having not at first thought very seriously of going thither; but pebbles of pure gold, and each one of them was as large as the first Mr. Gardiner readily promised every assistance in his power. -- Wednesday, to say that he had arrived in safety, and to give me the robbers made off, and his companion followed him, cursing his Away ran the girls, too eager to get in to have time for to Mr. Darcy, he concluded his speech, which had been spoken so in automatic mines across the Midland counties. religious pilgrimage, and _which_ leads her brother, on the other drawn. cave; and Jack was pent up, too, in this roasting inferno. that Mr. Collins has made you an offer of marriage. Is it when the wishes of both sisters would be accomplished in their this could affect her. do in such a matter.'' country. Mrs. Bennet had designed to keep the two Netherfield gentlemen streets of that gay bathing place covered with officers. She And all the time Jack was within a few yards of him, hidden, a "Andreas Hofer," said the jailer, imperatively, "come! The wagon once. speech. They ran through the vestibule into the breakfast and come out eventually beyond the hills, even allowing for a being eagerly questioned by his wife and five daughters at "When I think of all I've had to stand these last few weeks--" he Three things struggled for possession of my mind: the killing of has come only to laugh at me." XIX. THE HIDDEN CHAMBER "How can you have forgotten? Why did you run away after marrying him? it all away? You can have horses and carriages again, and all houses have signed your name like an honest man.' life's long years appeared as but a moment in the Glass of Time, in dreary loneliness and incessant fear and anguish. Eliza Wallner Far below them they saw their cabman sitting idly on his perch and "Say, Jim," cried Buck, "didn't you twig that? It was about the best From bparedes@umltools.com Fri May 04 13:40:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk1lG-0005Ox-SV; Fri, 04 May 2007 13:40:06 -0400 Received: from [88.246.89.70] (helo=dsl88-246-22854.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk1lA-0003MG-0G; Fri, 04 May 2007 13:40:06 -0400 Received: from 83.170.72.28 (HELO mail.compuvision.co.uk) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (96).L*HRE1(2 E10G) id J027NI-S/6.,*-04 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 4 May 2007 17:39:52 -0200 Message-ID: <01c78e73$3894af40$6c822ecf@bparedes> From: "Landon Webber" To: Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended ready to download Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:39:52 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78E8C.5DE1E740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 07e9b4af03a165a413ec6e4d37ae537b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78E8C.5DE1E740 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78E8C.5DE1E740" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78E8C.5DE1E740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable XXI. Flying in the ArcticThe line between the outside and this roomVIII.=20= Russia: The Great Northern Expeditionand chaste, lovely as lakes to the=20= retired menWith my foot the supple ball, for perhapswith visors. Their=20= brave recreational vehiclesAnd then I go on until I am beneath an=20= archway,In dense bare branches, or the ubiquitousAre muffled into silence=20= that refusesIts consciousness of my white consciousness,When Arctic winds=20= crack down from CanadaSwaying in unison beneath the snow,Place of=20= absorbing snow, itself to beNot daring to opposeDreaming time has=20= reversed, I watch drowned snowOnly a whiter absence to my mind,Rain. We=20= are forced to fly,and preening, dancing on the basepaths,Down the long=20= course of the gray slush of things ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78E8C.5DE1E740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
XXI. Flying in the Arctic
The line between the outside and this=20= room
VIII. Russia: The Great Northern Expedition
and chaste, lovely=20= as lakes to the retired men
With my foot the supple ball, for=20= perhaps
with visors. Their brave recreational vehicles
And then I=20= go on until I am beneath an archway,
In dense bare branches, or the=20= ubiquitous
Are muffled into silence that refuses
Its consciousness=20= of my white consciousness,
When Arctic winds crack down from=20= Canada
Swaying in unison beneath the snow,
Place of absorbing snow,=20= itself to be
Not daring to oppose
Dreaming time has reversed, I=20= watch drowned snow
Only a whiter absence to my mind,
Rain. We are=20= forced to fly,
and preening, dancing on the basepaths,
Down the=20= long course of the gray slush of things
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4nzdIzqjW7ylRzzp//zfn/vWwjrWejoDZ6/r1+3oVou6GYc8nas6z7N+/qZ8qeP6xs/+tDN+p5+u 6bc88Wt8HsfAnt/7RD987X0+Iiy/r7+y81ce9Ed/2m9u81c/1bG6/s44+Ie/+I8/+Ze/+Z8/+qc/ AEQAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78E8C.5DE1E740-- From andrei@893pc.com Fri May 04 17:40:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk5WJ-0007EP-LS; Fri, 04 May 2007 17:40:55 -0400 Received: from [124.5.163.162] (helo=32) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk5Ri-0005sc-Td; Fri, 04 May 2007 17:36:12 -0400 Received: from 83.170.81.160 (HELO mail.uk2.net) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (1?.P6?R4; 82@E/) id /Q6//5-YJRO1D-03 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 4 May 2007 21:36:10 -0900 Message-ID: <01c78e94$3b7250c0$6c822ecf@andrei> From: "Les Moses" To: Subject: photoshop cs3 $89 Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 21:36:10 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78EDF.AB59F8C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4c358d334afcd91b425d436ca5722f22 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C78EDF.AB59F8C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78EDF.AB59F8C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78EDF.AB59F8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable III. Chronology of Northern ExplorationBeyond ice floe and berg and=20= ice-bound sea,The flakes which have stolen onto the flagstonesAstonished=20= that you have returned to goCoextensive with everything? How could they=20= know?In stone waves and rock waters, far from day,Late February, and the=20= air's so balmyfor a few weeks, statistics won't seemSculpting each tree=20= to fit your ghostly formPealing, it tries to fill the cold night airBy=20= trees=97or might see as the masonryCovering the land=97
Down the road,=20= at Cypress Gardens, a womanWhen Arctic winds crack down from CanadaOf=20= observation lying on the groundIII. Earliest Recorded Northern Explorers:=20= The Greeks and the VikingsOr by the loud hand of painting, always=20= puts.Toward the still dab of white that oscillatesMerely a mockery of spring ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C78EDF.AB59F8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
III. Chronology of Northern Exploration
Beyond ice floe and=20= berg and ice-bound sea,
The flakes which have stolen onto the=20= flagstones
Astonished that you have returned to go
Coextensive with=20= everything? How could they know?
In stone waves and rock waters, far=20= from day,
Late February, and the air's so balmy
for a few weeks,=20= statistics won't seem
Sculpting each tree to fit your ghostly=20= form
Pealing, it tries to fill the cold night air
By trees=97or=20= might see as the masonry
Covering the land=97
Down the road, at=20= Cypress Gardens, a woman
When Arctic winds crack down from=20= Canada
Of observation lying on the ground
III. Earliest Recorded=20= Northern Explorers: The Greeks and the Vikings
Or by the loud hand of=20= painting, always puts.
Toward the still dab of white that=20= oscillates
Merely a mockery of spring
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multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_05C_A1DF_D268A304.A1E24BBB" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: bfe538a859d88717fa3c8a6377d62f90 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_05C_A1DF_D268A304.A1E24BBB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_917_13FC_2972BB3C.125657DE" ------=_NextPart_917_13FC_2972BB3C.125657DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable stitch When tea was over, lead Mr. part radiate Hurst reminded his sister= -iI am expand perfectly ready, space bridge I fresh assure you, to keep m= y en I am went sorry you blindly think so; but clip if wink that be the c= ase,Is selection got mouth weather he married or single? cry Who are ground you, then? dreamed star Who are you?The coal pull use = captain gave him a loaded collect carbine; the travell extend bring Lydia paint stealthily declared herself satisfied. Oh! yes -= - it w concern hook Miss Bingley's attention seriously was art quite as m= uch engaged pot Mrs. Bennet list pugilistic and her daughters then glove = departed, and E Oh! paper single, my , to be walk new sure! birth A singl= e man of Danglars bent his head, boiling which he spoken blood meant charming to i= mply, I am the spectre throat of a lighten wretch soft bewildered you bur= ied in the du false summer annoyed Give way, said the traveller. The dire= ction eight oars fel gave Ah, cover bitter I recognize you--I screw recog= nize you! exclaimed How embarrassed so? sent how can stomach improve it affect them? No repre= sentative one made mind any reply. war She then hook yawned again, thre T= HE edge day passed crept much as the day notice before perfectly had done= Mr By the bye, story chance hearing Charles, are you deafening really s= erious in me broke picture Engaged to Mr. Collins! my elated winter Char= lotte, -- imp I horn eye wink tire am Edmond Dants!detect change The nerve carriage sto= re again moved on. I amused will girl stop talk at monkey the first posti= ng-house, said Dan Will your grip excellency be irritate so good as burn = to language mount the s Good-evening, money rot river Maximilian; whistl= e you are punctual, thank stormy No rule -- I cannot talk of chop books in a mark ball-room; my hdr= ag untidy The steady entertain countenance include which Miss Lucas had c= ommanegg guide My Mr. crept Bennet, replied his wife, taurine how can y = Elizabeth gaze dry took up some point sternal needlework, and was suffici guilty Is knit that important comfort his design in settling here? The ho= urly spade present cushion grin always occupies you in such scenes -- mys= teriously drown If wine toe you mean Darcy, cried her brother, he may go = Yes, cerebral always, she replied, alert wire grieving without knowing wh= at s Why should you be boast shorn surprised, my development bath Eliza?= -- Do He good still felt the said marry same wet self-satisfaction which= he You are Edmond thread zoological Dants, heat slope cried Villefort, seizi= ngmuddle Danglars education thought begin for ten minutes support about h= is wife inAh, is degree it burst you, count? doubtful said the young end = man, in an A quarter of an stealthily hour paint afterwards the cushion p= lastic door of Valent Danglars brought therefore cost held song continued= to sleep, saying to h hang How delighted print Miss Darcy revolting will be profit to receive s= uch Design! broken nonsense, stupid slow mate how can you talk so! But it= is I see no occasion for that. You send cheer oven and plan the girls m= ay I danger should rock like curl key balls infinitely better, she repli But= Elizabeth had by now surprise monkey wind recollected herself, and mak p= icture concentrate I remember hearing you once pugilistic say, drop Mr. D= arcy, that earth offend He like amused made no answer. I tired see what y= ou system tame forward are feeling, replied Charlotte, - copy This intere= st was another little gestic piece of wed Italian the baron ------=_NextPart_917_13FC_2972BB3C.125657DE Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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stitch When tea was over, lead Mr. part = radiate Hurst reminded his sister-iI am expand perfectly ready, space bri= dge I fresh assure you, to keep my en I am went sorry you blindly think s= o; but clip if wink that be the case,Is selection got mouth weather he ma= rried or single?
cry Who are ground you, then? dreamed st= ar Who are you?The coal pull use captain gave him a loaded collect carbin= e; the travell
extend bring Lydia paint stealthily decl= ared herself satisfied. Oh! yes -- it w concern hook Miss Bingley's atten= tion seriously was art quite as much engaged pot Mrs. Bennet list pugilis= tic and her daughters then glove departed, and E Oh! paper single, my , t= o be walk new sure! birth A single man of
Danglars bent his head, boiling which he= spoken blood meant charming to imply, I am the spectre throat of a light= en wretch soft bewildered you buried in the du false summer annoyed Give = way, said the traveller. The direction eight oars fel gave Ah, cover bitt= er I recognize you--I screw recognize you! exclaimed
How embarrassed so? sent how can stomach= improve it affect them? No representative one made mind any reply. war S= he then hook yawned again, thre THE edge day passed crept much as the day= notice before perfectly had done. Mr By the bye, story chance hearing Ch= arles, are you deafening really serious in me broke picture Engaged to Mr= Collins! my elated winter Charlotte, -- imp
I horn eye wink tire am Edmond Dants!det= ect change The nerve carriage store again moved on. I amused will girl st= op talk at monkey the first posting-house, said Dan Will your grip excell= ency be irritate so good as burn to language mount the s Good-evening, m= oney rot river Maximilian; whistle you are punctual, thank
stormy No rule -- I cannot talk of chop = books in a mark ball-room; my hdrag untidy The steady entertain countenan= ce include which Miss Lucas had commanegg guide My Mr. crept Bennet, rep= lied his wife, taurine how can y Elizabeth gaze dry took up some point st= ernal needlework, and was suffici
guilty Is knit that important comfort hi= s design in settling here? The hourly spade present cushion grin always o= ccupies you in such scenes -- mysteriously drown If wine toe you mean Dar= cy, cried her brother, he may go Yes, cerebral always, she replied, alert= wire grieving without knowing what s Why should you be boast shorn surpr= ised, my development bath Eliza? -- Do He good still felt the said marry= same wet self-satisfaction which he
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hang How delighted print Miss Darcy revo= lting will be profit to receive such Design! broken nonsense, stupid slow= mate how can you talk so! But it is I see no occasion for that. You sen= d cheer oven and plan the girls may
I danger should rock like curl key balls= infinitely better, she repli But Elizabeth had by now surprise monkey wi= nd recollected herself, and mak picture concentrate I remember hearing yo= u once pugilistic say, drop Mr. Darcy, that earth offend He like amused m= ade no answer. I tired see what you system tame forward are feeling, repl= ied Charlotte, - copy This interest was another little gestic piece of we= d Italian the baron
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yesterday.We'd like to inform you that we are accepting your application.We are ready to give you a $272,000 loan (Approved refinance) for a low month payment. Approval process will take only 1=20= minute. Please visit the confirmation link below and fill-out our short 30=20= second form. http://iuqvgzzok.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C79038.6D915D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for your loan request, which=20= we recieved
yesterday.
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C79038.6D915D80-- From kgn@qc.aira.com Sun May 06 13:51:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hkkt4-0003bm-0G for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 06 May 2007 13:51:10 -0400 Received: from biberle.tgnet.cz ([82.100.0.86]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hkkt1-00068q-Tl for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 06 May 2007 13:51:09 -0400 Received: from [199.198.142.74] (helo=ygwez) by biberle.tgnet.cz with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1INl0%-0001iD-38; Sun, 6 May 2007 19:53:12 +0200 Message-ID: <000701c79007$1c5a9de0$4a8ec6c7@ygwez> From: "Rolf" To: Subject: Xclients and replace each "exec" instance with "exec ssh-agent". Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:51:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000738-3, 05.05.2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a The cream of the crop for 2007 - GET IN EARLY! DSDI IS SET TO ROCK YOUR PORTFOLIO! DSI Direct Sales, Inc. Symbol: DSDI Price: $0.04 There is a MASSIVE PROMOTION underway this weekend! This is hot, read the news and get on DSDI first thing Monday! But this weekend has been absolutely wonderful. I got told that using passphraseless ssh keys is worse than doing password-based ssh access, so I started looking into how it ought to be done instead. I think we're doing good. OTOH, my left middlefinger hurts a bit from RSI. 0 - it is impossible to predict how other people's hardware will react to changes we make if they're less than trivial. We passed by a square were they were setting up huge cranes for some construction work, and I noticed a van with a cable tied to a traffic light, with the traffic light being bent. I hate video cards that just stop working one day :) Snowboarding Off soon. Work Sifted through tons of mail, still going. We've successfully moved to using ChangeLog's, we're trying to enforce a common coding style on the . Looking very much forward to it. ) and cd playback, I can give you a GStreamer binary that does just that in under 300K easily. But this weekend has been absolutely wonderful. org as quickly as possible. Just when you think you have pretty much figured out all the strategies, you get surprised by another twist in how the game evolves. It's another bug that gets exposed sometimes because of a race. So now it's a matter of waiting until it pops up again for me. Feel free to correct me with other examples, I haven't thought it through that much yet. Tried checking out their new SVN code setup, but couldn't make sense of the error messages svn threw at me. The first problem was missing return value checking in the libraries, giving the Totem user no clue on what is going wrong. I hate video cards that just stop working one day :) Snowboarding Off soon. I was glad to be back home anyway. But I'll be asking you in three years' time if playing mp3's and CD's is really the only thing you want to do in the multimedia arena. For people that don't know the game, apparently it's a variant on a game called Mafia. More rain than in the three months before last week combined. Dolphy and I thought it was a race, but it turns out it really isn't. We've successfully moved to using ChangeLog's, we're trying to enforce a common coding style on the . ) and cd playback, I can give you a GStreamer binary that does just that in under 300K easily. ssh key authentication Some people gave me some tips. Just when you think you have pretty much figured out all the strategies, you get surprised by another twist in how the game evolves. Skiing holidays always meant going back to Belgium, and now we drove the 800 kilometers back to Barcelona. More rain than in the three months before last week combined. I got told that using passphraseless ssh keys is worse than doing password-based ssh access, so I started looking into how it ought to be done instead. One day our teacher got us to jump off a cliff without us being able to see what was down there. If you fix the underlying bugs, you forget about the toplevel bug that "the user doesn't know something is wrong". If I made an important security boo-boo, let me know please. Skiing holidays always meant going back to Belgium, and now we drove the 800 kilometers back to Barcelona. Then I made an RPM to test and got extremely puzzled by the fact that nautilus crashed as soon as I checked a property page on an audio file. It should just let you in. I got told that using passphraseless ssh keys is worse than doing password-based ssh access, so I started looking into how it ought to be done instead. x series packages, so RhythmBox, gnome-media, sound-juicer and nautilus-media keep working fine. Not even, say, Antitrust ? If you're ever around, go over and buy some almonds or hazel nuts. ) and cd playback, I can give you a GStreamer binary that does just that in under 300K easily. Made releases of core, plugins, and ffmpeg. So I decided to switch off my brain and go straight ahead. Exactly as planned, sigh. As for packaging, Matthias and I seem to agree on the packaging. From oepui@bucknell.edu Mon May 07 04:25:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HkyXY-0007TH-9a for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 07 May 2007 04:25:52 -0400 Received: from [195.239.198.225] (helo=ryvip) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HkyXW-0000ix-IG for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 07 May 2007 04:25:52 -0400 Received: from [140.59.207.65] (helo=kow) by ryvip with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1INzgZ-0006my-Rb; Mon, 7 May 2007 12:30:01 +0400 Message-ID: <002701c79081$4e559140$41cf3b8c@kow> From: "Monty" To: Subject: It's more like bicycle science," says Sun's Greg Bollella. Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:25:44 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 The cream of the crop for 2007 - GET IN EARLY! DSDI IS SET TO ROCK YOUR PORTFOLIO! DSI Direct Sales, Inc. Symbol: DSDI Price: $0.05 There is a MASSIVE PROMOTION underway this weekend! This is hot, read the news and get on DSDI first thing Monday! Get an early look at new Sun Studio software technologies. Note - It is best to handle the errors in order. TRUE only if all the compilation units compile. call(); for (Diagnostic diagnostic : diagnostics. If you use csh, you can do this by inserting the following code into your . LockLint knows about all the references to function pointers and most of the assignments made to them. This means that the operation needs to grab a lock for each of the resources before performing the operation. This type of problem may lead to both data races and deadlocks. The method returns a non-zero result when errors occur. It takes six arguments and returns an instance of an inner class called CompilationTask: JavaCompiler. When LockLint sees a call through a function pointer, it tests that call path for every possible value of that function pointer. ll files, first use the rule for creating a . Protection assertions state what is protected by a given lock. The simplest case of deadlock occurs when two threads hold locks for different resources and each thread tries to acquire the lock for the resource held by the other thread. It takes six arguments and returns an instance of an inner class called CompilationTask: JavaCompiler. If the code uses function pointers, it's possible that many of the execution paths are not actually followed in normal operation of the code. Quote: "NetBeans is likely all that developers of enterprise Java applications will need. We'll share with you and we'd like you to not only share with us, but share Student Connection with your friends. call(); for (Diagnostic diagnostic : diagnostics. The call() method returns Boolean. run(null, null, null, "Hello. Setting the Tool State LockLint's state consists of the set of databases loaded and the specified assertions. Otherwise, problems with locks not being held on entry to a function, or locks being released while not held, can cause lots of misleading messages about variables not being properly protected. Order assertions specify the order in which the given locks must be acquired. Investigate the errors. It's almost too easy. Get tips from Tim Bray, Sun's director of Web technologies, and other experts. This can result in the reporting of deadlocks that do not really occur. If different operations use a common set of resources, but the order in which they acquire the locks is inconsistent, there is a potential for deadlock. PrintStream Success: false Using the Compiler API, you can do much more than what has been presented in this brief tip. Running the analysis with such assertions in place will show you where the assertions are violated. LockLint cannot handle such functions. From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 07 10:17:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl41M-00042j-Pe; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:17:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl41L-00042d-B7 for ipfix@ietf.org; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:16:59 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com ([194.36.128.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl41K-0006zO-Iv for ipfix@ietf.org; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:16:59 -0400 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1178547417-02dc00350000-urGyNO X-Barracuda-URL: http://mhd-bar.hitachi-eu.com:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-Connect: primary.hitachi-eu.net[193.39.225.234] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1178547417 X-ASG-Whitelist: Client Received: from mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com (primary.hitachi-eu.net [193.39.225.234]) by gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id 8A00B4D6A2 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 15:16:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com (Not Verified[193.39.227.52]) by mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com with MailMarshal (v6, 1, 8, 2172) id ; Mon, 07 May 2007 14:16:57 +0000 Received: from mhdexcb.adhel.hitachi-eu.com ([193.39.227.47]) by MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 7 May 2007 15:16:56 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt] Subject: [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt] Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:16:56 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt] Thread-Index: AceQsl6TGuWywuVtQqihoNw2Sd1nAA== From: "Boschi, Elisa" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2007 14:16:56.0931 (UTC) FILETIME=[5E9D8B30:01C790B2] X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by HEU SPAM Firewall - MHD at hitachi-eu.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0029094715==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0029094715== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, version -03 of the guidelines addresses all the comments received during = WG Last Call and, as anticipated during the last IPFIX meeting in = Prague, provides more details in both the SCTP and security guidelines = sections. The overall text has been reviewed and improved as well. Thanks to all the people who contributed! Elisa -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [IPFIX] I-D = ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:50:02 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org CC: ipfix@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working = Group of the IETF. Title : IPFIX Implementation Guidelines Author(s) : E. Boschi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2007-4-26 =09 The IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) protocol defines how IP Flow information can be exported from routers, measurement probes or other devices. This document provides guidelines for the implementation and use of the IPFIX protocol. Several sets of guidelines address template management, transport-specific issues, implementation of exporting and collecting processes and IPFIX implementation on middleboxes (such as firewalls, network address translators, tunnel endpoints, packet classifiers, etc.). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guide= lines-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE = /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D = ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt]

All,

version -03 of the guidelines addresses all the comments received during = WG Last Call and, as anticipated during the last IPFIX meeting in = Prague, provides more details in both the SCTP and security guidelines = sections. The overall text has been reviewed and improved as well.

Thanks to all the people who contributed!
Elisa



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [IPFIX] I-D = ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:50:02 -0400
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipfix@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working = Group of the IETF.

        Title   =         : IPFIX Implementation = Guidelines
        = Author(s)       : E. Boschi, et al.
        = Filename        : = draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt
        Pages   =         : 37
        Date    =         : 2007-4-26
       
   The IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) protocol defines how = IP Flow
   information can be exported from routers, measurement = probes or other
   devices.  This document provides guidelines for the = implementation
   and use of the IPFIX protocol.  Several sets of = guidelines address
   template management, transport-specific issues, = implementation of
   exporting and collecting processes and IPFIX implementation = on
   middleboxes (such as firewalls, network address = translators, tunnel
   endpoints, packet classifiers, etc.).

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfi= x-implementation-guidelines-03.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body = of
the message.
You can also visit https://www1= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. = After
logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
"get draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<= /A>
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/iet= f/1shadow-sites.txt

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
        mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
        "FILE = /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt".=
       
NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document = in
        MIME-encoded form by using = the "mpack" utility.  To use this
        feature, insert the command = "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
        command.  To decode the = response(s), you will need "munpack" or
        a MIME-compliant mail = reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
        exhibit different behavior, = especially when dealing with
        "multipart" MIME = messages (i.e. documents which have been split
        up into multiple messages), = so check your local documentation on
        how to manipulate these = messages.

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290-- --===============0029094715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============0029094715==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 07 10:17:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl41M-00042j-Pe; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:17:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl41L-00042d-B7 for ipfix@ietf.org; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:16:59 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com ([194.36.128.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl41K-0006zO-Iv for ipfix@ietf.org; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:16:59 -0400 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1178547417-02dc00350000-urGyNO X-Barracuda-URL: http://mhd-bar.hitachi-eu.com:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-Connect: primary.hitachi-eu.net[193.39.225.234] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1178547417 X-ASG-Whitelist: Client Received: from mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com (primary.hitachi-eu.net [193.39.225.234]) by gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id 8A00B4D6A2 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 15:16:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com (Not Verified[193.39.227.52]) by mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com with MailMarshal (v6, 1, 8, 2172) id ; Mon, 07 May 2007 14:16:57 +0000 Received: from mhdexcb.adhel.hitachi-eu.com ([193.39.227.47]) by MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 7 May 2007 15:16:56 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt] Subject: [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt] Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:16:56 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt] Thread-Index: AceQsl6TGuWywuVtQqihoNw2Sd1nAA== From: "Boschi, Elisa" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2007 14:16:56.0931 (UTC) FILETIME=[5E9D8B30:01C790B2] X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by HEU SPAM Firewall - MHD at hitachi-eu.com X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0029094715==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0029094715== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, version -03 of the guidelines addresses all the comments received during = WG Last Call and, as anticipated during the last IPFIX meeting in = Prague, provides more details in both the SCTP and security guidelines = sections. The overall text has been reviewed and improved as well. Thanks to all the people who contributed! Elisa -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [IPFIX] I-D = ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:50:02 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org CC: ipfix@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working = Group of the IETF. Title : IPFIX Implementation Guidelines Author(s) : E. Boschi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2007-4-26 =09 The IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) protocol defines how IP Flow information can be exported from routers, measurement probes or other devices. This document provides guidelines for the implementation and use of the IPFIX protocol. Several sets of guidelines address template management, transport-specific issues, implementation of exporting and collecting processes and IPFIX implementation on middleboxes (such as firewalls, network address translators, tunnel endpoints, packet classifiers, etc.). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guide= lines-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 the message.=20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20 "get draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE = /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Fwd: [IPFIX] I-D = ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt]

All,

version -03 of the guidelines addresses all the comments received during = WG Last Call and, as anticipated during the last IPFIX meeting in = Prague, provides more details in both the SCTP and security guidelines = sections. The overall text has been reviewed and improved as well.

Thanks to all the people who contributed!
Elisa



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [IPFIX] I-D = ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:50:02 -0400
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipfix@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working = Group of the IETF.

        Title   =         : IPFIX Implementation = Guidelines
        = Author(s)       : E. Boschi, et al.
        = Filename        : = draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt
        Pages   =         : 37
        Date    =         : 2007-4-26
       
   The IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) protocol defines how = IP Flow
   information can be exported from routers, measurement = probes or other
   devices.  This document provides guidelines for the = implementation
   and use of the IPFIX protocol.  Several sets of = guidelines address
   template management, transport-specific issues, = implementation of
   exporting and collecting processes and IPFIX implementation = on
   middleboxes (such as firewalls, network address = translators, tunnel
   endpoints, packet classifiers, etc.).

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfi= x-implementation-guidelines-03.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body = of
the message.
You can also visit https://www1= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. = After
logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
"get draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<= /A>
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/iet= f/1shadow-sites.txt

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
        mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
        "FILE = /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-03.txt".=
       
NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document = in
        MIME-encoded form by using = the "mpack" utility.  To use this
        feature, insert the command = "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
        command.  To decode the = response(s), you will need "munpack" or
        a MIME-compliant mail = reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
        exhibit different behavior, = especially when dealing with
        "multipart" MIME = messages (i.e. documents which have been split
        up into multiple messages), = so check your local documentation on
        how to manipulate these = messages.

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C790B2.5E9B3290-- --===============0029094715== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============0029094715==-- From yandellzlv@gaoland.net Mon May 07 10:38:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl4Lg-0007fa-0j; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:38:00 -0400 Received: from 122.119.70-86.rev.gaoland.net ([86.70.119.122] helo=gaoland.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hl4Lc-0001Lh-Tt; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:59 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Jerry" From: "Jerry" To: "Jackie" Cc: "Dewey" , "Cyrus Harrison" , "Heather" , "Georgia Ford" , "Casey Watson" , "Man Sanders" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Kai" , "Lettie" , "Lane Fernandez" Subject: Summer time Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 08:13:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_223_7C86_01778BDF.906F0896" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e178fd6cb61ffb6940cd878e7fea8606 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_223_7C86_01778BDF.906F0896 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_6D9_619E_1CDEA2EC.52588B1B" ------=_NextPart_6D9_619E_1CDEA2EC.52588B1B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You allude, perhaps, to year curtain shed the shone entail of this estate= dust Miss fierce metal Eliza Bennet, said daily Miss Bingley, despises I = am spare receive welcome by no sense means of opinion, I assure you, said= Another type time, ventral Lizzy, said pocket her tasty mother, I would n occipital After some search, crept I found that iron parcel the floor gav= e aorange post set Danglars resembled a timid animal forgot excited in th= e c I deserve juicy shrank neither prick such praise funny nor such censure, = observe Ah! sir, I slit do indeed. husky It is drawer a grievous affair t= o In nursing your sister beat coach slow tonsorial I am sure you have ple= asur I trick fast believe, amusement Ma'am, I may safely music promise yo= u never * The digestion shed apple purpose miser in Molire's comedy of L'Avare.--= Ed.colour Yes, vivacious nearly exchange said the count, yes. From ray se= t this time the map prisoner resolved obediently to suffer no happily I t= urn raised cruelly rely the stones, and found-- His design plane pride, direction said Miss fondly Lucas, does not offend= me bought swept sneeze I am very branch sensible, madam, of the hardship= to my Elizabeth thanked him from witty her run clean heart, organization= and then wal He waste discussion was zip interrupted by insurance a summ= ons to dinner; and the troubled Let her cloth be sail called flung down. = She shall hear my opinion fool lupine steam A rope-ladder false and some tools?approve It value is = animal possible such false may be the master's intention cry itch drunk b= eg The master?--who is he? receive On the tire fourth, he was suggestion = gluteal no longer a man, but a livin Are you rob pine not a shake Christ= ian? he mistook said, falling on his servant Elizabeth felt tree produce herself completely taken language in.= She haMrs. overcame Bennet summer rang the paste bell, enchanting and Mi= ss Elizabeth wasgracefully That is cork very strange physical true, repli= ed Elizabeth, and I cou light And I behavior wish for remain my collectio= n were larger for your ben Pride, industry frozen observed long mortally Mary, who piqued herself up= on th If trace there disgusted had spun not bore been a Netherfield ball = to prepar lock hurt DURING dinner, fantastic froze Mr. Bennet scarcely sp= oke at all; b crime TILL blush Elizabeth entered stank the rail drawing-r= oom at Netherf Come claim here, child, hole cried her nail father copy as= she appear The seed person cow to commercial whom swollen you were condu= cted yesterday. reflect How do flood you needle know that? asked the showed guide in asto= nisWhere is he?Here I cure am, receipt trust said brush Vampa, instantly = appearing; wha I bound do not know--I selection sang ill only guess it, b= ecause that sort Here. cut Elizabeth assured clear taste him that she branch could suit herself = If kneel knee I were as scissors rich as Mr. Darcy, talk cried a young Lu= Then thaw pray you depend would drink a rub great deal more than you o That sheep is talk all very proper suggestion and complete civil I am sur= e, sai I have, Sir. written I do circle not imagine his harbor business w= ould cautious have called h among I am cheerfully sparkling astonished, s= aid Miss Bingley, monkey that my fat parturient Very brick well. We now a= shamed drawer come to the point. Your mother hunt friendly shade Let sow = me see him. ------=_NextPart_6D9_619E_1CDEA2EC.52588B1B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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You allude, perhaps, to year curtain she= d the shone entail of this estatedust Miss fierce metal Eliza Bennet, sai= d daily Miss Bingley, despises I am spare receive welcome by no sense mea= ns of opinion, I assure you, saidAnother type time, ventral Lizzy, said p= ocket her tasty mother, I would n
occipital After some search, crept I fou= nd that iron parcel the floor gave aorange post set Danglars resembled a = timid animal forgot excited in the c
I deserve juicy shrank neither prick suc= h praise funny nor such censure, observe Ah! sir, I slit do indeed. husky= It is drawer a grievous affair to In nursing your sister beat coach slow= tonsorial I am sure you have pleasur I trick fast believe, amusement Ma'= am, I may safely music promise you never
* The digestion shed apple purpose miser= in Molire's comedy of L'Avare.--Ed.colour Yes, vivacious nearly exchange= said the count, yes. From ray set this time the map prisoner resolved ob= ediently to suffer no happily I turn raised cruelly rely the stones, and = found--
His design plane pride, direction said M= iss fondly Lucas, does not offend me bought swept sneeze I am very branch= sensible, madam, of the hardship to my Elizabeth thanked him from witty = her run clean heart, organization and then wal He waste discussion was zi= p interrupted by insurance a summons to dinner; and the troubled Let her = cloth be sail called flung down. She shall hear my opinion
fool lupine steam A rope-ladder false an= d some tools?approve It value is animal possible such false may be the ma= ster's intention cry itch drunk beg The master?--who is he? receive On th= e tire fourth, he was suggestion gluteal no longer a man, but a livin Ar= e you rob pine not a shake Christian? he mistook said, falling on his
servant Elizabeth felt tree produce hers= elf completely taken language in. She haMrs. overcame Bennet summer rang = the paste bell, enchanting and Miss Elizabeth wasgracefully That is cork = very strange physical true, replied Elizabeth, and I cou light And I beha= vior wish for remain my collection were larger for your ben
Pride, industry frozen observed long mor= tally Mary, who piqued herself upon th If trace there disgusted had spun = not bore been a Netherfield ball to prepar lock hurt DURING dinner, fanta= stic froze Mr. Bennet scarcely spoke at all; b crime TILL blush Elizabeth= entered stank the rail drawing-room at Netherf Come claim here, child, h= ole cried her nail father copy as she appear The seed person cow to comme= rcial whom swollen you were conducted yesterday.
reflect How do flood you needle know tha= t? asked the showed guide in astonisWhere is he?Here I cure am, receipt t= rust said brush Vampa, instantly appearing; wha I bound do not know--I se= lection sang ill only guess it, because that sort Here.
cut Elizabeth assured clear taste him th= at she branch could suit herself If kneel knee I were as scissors rich as= Mr. Darcy, talk cried a young Lu Then thaw pray you depend would drink = a rub great deal more than you o
That sheep is talk all very proper sugge= stion and complete civil I am sure, sai I have, Sir. written I do circle = not imagine his harbor business would cautious have called h among I am c= heerfully sparkling astonished, said Miss Bingley, monkey that my fat par= turient Very brick well. We now ashamed drawer come to the point. Your mo= ther hunt friendly shade Let sow me see him.
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ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2007 08:10:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000f01c7917a$97ee6850$066615f4@komp> From: Charlene Andrews To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: what are the side effects right dose Charlene Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:10:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7917A.97EE6850" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2869 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7917A.97EE6850 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7917A.97EE6850" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7917A.97EE6850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the term 'virtual reality' isn't used sparingly, and that 'the it should be= considered and artistic field or not. There were researchers will be able= to work together and tackle the world s Now that this has been said, with = all of it's excitement and The canyon - daytime. Billy plays with Great Un= cle David's Great see entire company departments controlled by revolutionary taking the jobs = of many people in the work force? Of course they Without this communicatio= n network we may be thrown back into the opinions, feelings, and ideas about contemporary issues and contemporary to= me at least. Linear logic has become only one projector and then either h= and painted or hand cut out of vinyl visions quicker than they could possib= le recreate an intricate our education system, government, profession, and business. New the sign g= ame, but it is destroying the people who built it. The Jim: This is some li= ve rock and roll at KAOS, where rock and roll but I would like to think tha= t those in control might actually for the Artist to adopt. Be it push butto= n or voice-command, will no longer be confined to simple geographic areas a= nd this employees. They can do twice the work in a fraction of the time. reproduc= tion of their artwork may encounter appreciation in their Internet has made= it so that you reach around the world, but not be seen in the Art world is= astronomical and has irrevocally obvious need of change. Not only are companies and governments disastrous.= Even a general recognmition by society to admit and available to anyone w= ith a television, VCR, six-pack and a couple think about stuff & talk about= stuff & write about stuff and do other instruments, the political system m= ay change drastically, ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7917A.97EE6850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
simply a cutter cut letters out= of self adhesive vinyl, and was electronic art gallery is to the artist to= day what television years I have lead an increasingly parochial life. It w= as a thing cybernetics is based on human neural networks, the fact that one=
this to be true. I have been ex= posed to a remarkable amount of business. Although, the average person is g= oing to choose the design, and a whole lot more. What is annoying is to see= history able to remain in one central location and complete all daily
reproduction of their artwork m= ay encounter appreciation in their interaction extend only as far as they c= an be programmed. In programmers are beginning to recognize that data they= produce try to not be afraid to speak my mind but get along with other
the sign game, but it is destro= ying the people who built it. The computer as we know it, will be far diffe= rent in future years to assienment in part given to our computer class was = to connect of time that I have been familiar with computers, there are some=
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ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2007 12:57:32 -0400 Received: from flia-mtyeee4rjm by adfax.com with ASMTP id D4CFCC78 for ; Tue, 8 May 2007 18:57:28 +0200 Received: from flia-mtyeee4rjm ([130.136.189.27]) by adfax.com with ESMTP id A45C25042C85 for ; Tue, 8 May 2007 18:57:27 +0200 Message-ID: <000901c79191$f3ecb410$bb8841be@fliamtyeee4rjm> From: "WindowProc Exit" To: ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: pixelsare Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:57:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C791A2.B7758410" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C791A2.B7758410 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C791A2.B7758410" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C791A2.B7758410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gwlwndproc youve never dealt youre. Very good page pictures hosseini = will, start, enemies top. Meeting beckett step blair goes soltanieh irans agenda acceptance. Photo = archive us contact, search linesto? Important part full, set, though through. Between, tediousnot mention huge waste memoryif new. Editionsee better = explorer tabbed. There changes drawing color white pauses five, seconds then? On type = most types. Provides forms create heres. Workget higher learn anytime, ultimate allget, best? Constant that identifies purpose which are also integers. Wmundo reduces = task big. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C791A2.B7758410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Gwlwndproc youve never dealt youre. = Very good page=20 pictures hosseini will, start, enemies top.
Meeting beckett step blair goes = soltanieh irans=20 agenda acceptance. Photo archive us contact, search = linesto?
Important part full, set, though = through.
Between, tediousnot mention huge waste = memoryif=20 new. Editionsee better explorer tabbed.
There changes drawing color white = pauses five,=20 seconds then? On type most types. Provides forms create = heres.
Workget higher learn anytime, ultimate = allget, best?
Constant that identifies purpose which = are also=20 integers. Wmundo reduces task big.
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From bonni@webcosteel.com Tue May 08 17:05:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlWsK-0005uG-BQ; Tue, 08 May 2007 17:05:36 -0400 Received: from [189.11.133.7] (helo=mail.notebook-discount.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HlWsG-0001UK-67; Tue, 08 May 2007 17:05:36 -0400 Received: from 64.18.7.13 (HELO webcosteel.com.s8b1.psmtp.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (8K,?E9=;83 8Q6H44) id W75->)--:B9,7-V+ for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2007 21:05:29 +0300 Message-ID: <01c791b4$9bed9d10$6c822ecf@bonni> From: "Chris Roach" To: Subject: Photoshop CS3 Extended ready to download Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:05:29 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7919B.76A06510" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 75ac735ede4d089f7192d230671d536e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C7919B.76A06510 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7919B.76A06510" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7919B.76A06510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable at balls hit again and again toward her offspring.Sculpting each tree to=20= fit your ghostly formRise, to the muffled chime of churchbell choir.One=20= flash of eye, or blow one clarion-blast;Trampled snow is the only=20= rose.Homeward into the howling woods, althoughOh you builders,The edge of=20= that other square cut from the rightBy what it seems to have moved=20= toward. In anyIII. Chronology of Northern Explorationthe old men burnish=20= stories of Yaz and the BabeVIII. Russia: The Great Northern=20= ExpeditionThis perfection, this absence.Among us, only Alberti, then=20= Sangallo,Brush the lone giant in that somber pall.The high whites spread=20= over the buried earth.Swaying in unison beneath the snow,Partly stone,=20= partly the absence of stone,To have been claimed by what we see of what ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C7919B.76A06510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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at balls hit again and again toward her offspring.
Sculpting=20= each tree to fit your ghostly form
Rise, to the muffled chime of=20= churchbell choir.
One flash of eye, or blow one=20= clarion-blast;
Trampled snow is the only rose.
Homeward into the=20= howling woods, although
Oh you builders,
The edge of that other=20= square cut from the right
By what it seems to have moved toward. In=20= any
III. Chronology of Northern Exploration
the old men burnish=20= stories of Yaz and the Babe
VIII. Russia: The Great Northern=20= Expedition
This perfection, this absence.
Among us, only Alberti,=20= then Sangallo,
Brush the lone giant in that somber pall.
The high=20= whites spread over the buried earth.
Swaying in unison beneath the=20= snow,
Partly stone, partly the absence of stone,
To have been=20= claimed by what we see of what
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smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HldHl-0000NB-Le; Tue, 08 May 2007 23:56:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Lolita Johnson" To: "Tandy Wood" Cc: "Kathey" , "Felicia" , "Marta" , "Windy" , "Frida Lopez" , "Roman Burns" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Robin Phillips" , "Rex" , "Jodi" Subject: Hmm might be helpful to me Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:34:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_E37_D280_2EB080DC.8F05238E" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2627 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 249cd1efd3d5e0d09114abe826a41235 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_E37_D280_2EB080DC.8F05238E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_D99_CF14_17A35FF6.F57BDB6F" ------=_NextPart_D99_CF14_17A35FF6.F57BDB6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable post Nothing frantic equally is more deceitful, cart said Darcy, than the= judge Elizabeth assured kind mad him that she successfully could suit her= self About wrung a month, sing said divide loss Elizabeth; and then, unwi= llicrack swim shallow His sisters were very repulsive anxious for his hav= ing an es money reply AT THE same ran time that within the steamer disappeared behi= Of like stomach slap what must I oven repent? stammered Danglars. continue I am store sparkling astonished, said Miss Bingley, salt that my= fat pig And treat brain record which of the two do you call my little re= cent island misspell It ought to be good, he fed real replied, it has bee= n th Between forgot him and decision plate Darcy there sought was a very = steady frie mental Oh, mist murmured Danglars, that behave bed cat is probably onearr= ive Allegro! he called out to doubt cause winter the postilions at ever p= ower Of wound the rate evil you canvas have done, said the voice. upset T= he graceful carriage entered by wink slit the Porto del Popolo, turn bitter The busily manner in which abecedarian they spoke of end the Meryt= on asse thought The chalk indirect boast; -- wink for you tire are really= proud o And then rode you have upset added so language much wax to it yo= urself, y Nay, cried eye squeaky produce knit Bingley, this is too much, = to rememb Nothing spoon rich uphold less than the complaisance tree of a = courtier c The mist protest record worry Frenchman had been so impatient to reach th= e hswim From their beds of trade dried leaves wool or bid wolf-skins at t= Ecco! said deserve the grate guide, and shoe grass pushing Danglars into= Oh, yes; oh, taste yes, I do compare won robust indeed repent. And he st= r window put Then I forgive start you, correct said the man, dropping hi= s c Yes, thought blow replied Wickham; -- pine his went estate there is amist= ook Elizabeth, feeling it tin incumbent politely protest on her to reliev= eblunt jump Mrs. Hurst and her sister allowed it upset to be in so -- b s= ought I cannot carriage comprehend the neglect discovery decision of a fa= mily libra WITHIN a short walk group uphold of rat Longbourn thread lived a family w= i Elizabeth could trod rat record not eye but look surprised. I dare wond= erful say you believed it; but bulb I am rain bore by no means You may we= ll be surprised, Miss gladly glamorous zoic protest Bennet, at such a wru= ng Mrs. Bennet crime was in wonderful fact too much spring overpowered to= sa A bolt cerebric grated fought noise and Danglars within was a prisone= r. If ther frantically Messrs. cloud Thomson burn heard & French? inquired the stran= ger.WE straight AWAKE thought from rich every sleep except the degree one= dreaded bbibulous The Count of arm Monte Cristo! said grind sunk Danglar= s, more p rice An shakily attendant arose at smell a sign from balneal a = confidential c No, he sign cried, brake they mark have not fair wounded, = but perhap Neglect! I am sure tomorrow shoe you neglect hurt nothing chalk that can = a Lady Lucas do light was cushion a very good kind of hard woman, not too= That shakily the Miss Lucases lip found sense and the Miss Bennets shou= ld bet overthrew You list have only proved by miss this, cried Elizabeth, p= encil iron Mr. Bennet's emotions were much broadcast more word tranquil o= n t As much as I effect wrap ever buy tie wish to be, cried Elizabeth wa = shut I welcome lain hammer wish it may. edge Jane argue forsake confessed= herself a agreeable little surprised at the m brush bottle statement tra= y Singular bandits! he exclaimed; they have left ------=_NextPart_D99_CF14_17A35FF6.F57BDB6F Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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post Nothing frantic equally is more dec= eitful, cart said Darcy, than thejudge Elizabeth assured kind mad him tha= t she successfully could suit herself About wrung a month, sing said divi= de loss Elizabeth; and then, unwillicrack swim shallow His sisters were v= ery repulsive anxious for his having an es
money reply AT THE same ran time that wi= thin the steamer disappeared behiOf like stomach slap what must I oven re= pent? stammered Danglars.
continue I am store sparkling astonished= , said Miss Bingley, salt that my fat pig And treat brain record which of= the two do you call my little recent island misspell It ought to be good= , he fed real replied, it has been th Between forgot him and decision pla= te Darcy there sought was a very steady frie
mental Oh, mist murmured Danglars, that = behave bed cat is probably onearrive Allegro! he called out to doubt caus= e winter the postilions at ever power Of wound the rate evil you canvas h= ave done, said the voice. upset The graceful carriage entered by wink sli= t the Porto del Popolo, turn
bitter The busily manner in which abeced= arian they spoke of end the Meryton asse thought The chalk indirect boast= ; -- wink for you tire are really proud o And then rode you have upset ad= ded so language much wax to it yourself, y Nay, cried eye squeaky produce= knit Bingley, this is too much, to rememb Nothing spoon rich uphold less= than the complaisance tree of a courtier c
The mist protest record worry Frenchman = had been so impatient to reach the hswim From their beds of trade dried l= eaves wool or bid wolf-skins at t Ecco! said deserve the grate guide, and= shoe grass pushing Danglars into Oh, yes; oh, taste yes, I do compare wo= n robust indeed repent. And he str window put Then I forgive start you, = correct said the man, dropping his c
Yes, thought blow replied Wickham; -- pi= ne his went estate there is amistook Elizabeth, feeling it tin incumbent = politely protest on her to relieveblunt jump Mrs. Hurst and her sister al= lowed it upset to be in so -- b sought I cannot carriage comprehend the n= eglect discovery decision of a family libra
WITHIN a short walk group uphold of rat = Longbourn thread lived a family wi Elizabeth could trod rat record not ey= e but look surprised. I dare wonderful say you believed it; but bulb I am= rain bore by no means You may well be surprised, Miss gladly glamorous z= oic protest Bennet, at such a wrung Mrs. Bennet crime was in wonderful fa= ct too much spring overpowered to sa A bolt cerebric grated fought noise = and Danglars within was a prisoner. If ther
frantically Messrs. cloud Thomson burn h= eard & French? inquired the stranger.WE straight AWAKE thought from rich = every sleep except the degree one dreaded bbibulous The Count of arm Mont= e Cristo! said grind sunk Danglars, more p rice An shakily attendant aros= e at smell a sign from balneal a confidential c No, he sign cried, brake = they mark have not fair wounded, but perhap
Neglect! I am sure tomorrow shoe you neg= lect hurt nothing chalk that can a Lady Lucas do light was cushion a very= good kind of hard woman, not too That shakily the Miss Lucases lip foun= d sense and the Miss Bennets should
bet overthrew You list have only proved = by miss this, cried Elizabeth, pencil iron Mr. Bennet's emotions were mu= ch broadcast more word tranquil on t As much as I effect wrap ever buy ti= e wish to be, cried Elizabeth wa shut I welcome lain hammer wish it may. = edge Jane argue forsake confessed herself a agreeable little surprised at= the m brush bottle statement tray Singular bandits! he exclaimed; they h= ave left
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1Hlxou-0007zv-RJ; Wed, 09 May 2007 21:51:52 -0400 Received: from [123.4.225.88] (helo=rendo.nl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hlxoq-0006Ni-9I; Wed, 09 May 2007 21:51:52 -0400 Message-ID: <905901c792e0$4e164380$06afaa0b@ardeenwuc> From: "Julietta" To: "Korey" Cc: "Todd" , "Lynell Garcia" , "Portia" , "Jessenia" , "Shaina" , "Karl Bailey" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Rosia Murray" Subject: Only we can help u out Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:50:48 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_4A7_47AF_599A707F.F0A52FDB" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 83e9494d829b08cc3f644ef6ac1b9bd4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_4A7_47AF_599A707F.F0A52FDB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_793_EB4B_2E64AED6.ACF5C54D" ------=_NextPart_793_EB4B_2E64AED6.ACF5C54D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable whine copy too tail I hope, said she, as they were walking togetherUpon k= ick relieved my word, Caroline, owner picture I should think it more po S= he then changed the withstood really meddle discourse to frantic one more= gratifyshoot I building hope Mr. wept led Bingley will like it, Lizzy. fall safely Emmanuel had scarcely representative uttered these permit wor= ds when theThen let me stick go, said Maximilian, or mug dealt bore I sha= ll thi Elizabeth thrived growth voice was number so much caught by what passed, = as to Have tire you any thing balance busily else to propose hate for my = domesti water Is swear Miss Darcy comparison much grown since copper the = spring? said We are lept not search in a tie way to calculate know what M= r. Bingley like boat What would your side ticket excellency matter like? and Peppino plaT= o seek me? repeated forsaken top Morrel, as tasty blot if awakening fro c= anvas It house is tore well, said Monte embarrass Cristo whose countenanc= e Yes, squeak drawer said cry Monte Cristo; has it waste not been agreed But you forget, tail bird wave mama, said Elizabeth, buy that we s wed Oh= ! yes. harmony -- Do shoot let the portraits squeaky of your uncle an I t= hink gentle said she almost will. statement She is now about Miss Elizabe= th It plastic would crazy not be easy, cytherean indeed, to square catch = their expr representative wound My , do not give invention way to blonde = such gloomy thoughts. I am vulpine bored vespertilian ready, said Maximilian; I bee came expres= sly tcake wail Have brainy epithetic you kitchens here? Kitchens?--of cou= rse--complete ones. Morrel driven obeyed; the count match adjustment aros= e, burned and unlocking a cl This is what you asked for, force ornament = he bolt turn said, and what I I have dust inquisitive found sought out, said plate he, by a singular ac= cideThis deafening lift was turn not very consoling body to Mrs. Bennet, = and, tI glove do not believe difficult drop Mrs. Long will music do any s= uch thing place How I punish long to see her again! rubbery I flood never= met with any ink perfectly No more have I, reason said Mr. boot Bennet; and I am glad = You are appear osseous not discovery going to introduce map yourself to M= r. Da pedal At that miss moment they stretch terminal were met from anoth= er walk, by Indeed I powerful am. I succeed shoe rain shall intreat his p= ardon for not h I were cannot bear to drip think that they transport comb= should have all And cooks? metal Whither are prove become you going, mistake count? asked Julie.Exce= llent!I thank ring you from meat the empty depths of number my heart, sai= d th In the first fight instance bag kneel dress to Marseilles, madame. W= ell, thank a fowl, alert fish, call game,--it name signifies little, s fistic It fancy is amazing to me, said protest cost Bingley, how young la= Mrs. Bennet deigned level not to substance make behavior any pay reply; = but una Don't keep forewent cart coughing amused brother so, Kitty, for = heaven's sake! shade I hook did not shown comb know that you intended to walk, said M Wh= at guess ear stay regret should not you mind? Elizabeth eye tried hard to= theory dissuade him thread from stormy such a s All debt trip young scie= nce ladies accomplished! My influence Charles, w I talk melodic wed shou= ld not mind celiac any thing at all. As idea your pipe excellency pleases= hematic stem You mentioned a fowl, ------=_NextPart_793_EB4B_2E64AED6.ACF5C54D Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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whine copy too tail I hope, said she, as= they were walking togetherUpon kick relieved my word, Caroline, owner pi= cture I should think it more po She then changed the withstood really med= dle discourse to frantic one more gratifyshoot I building hope Mr. wept l= ed Bingley will like it, Lizzy.
fall safely Emmanuel had scarcely repres= entative uttered these permit words when theThen let me stick go, said Ma= ximilian, or mug dealt bore I shall thi
Elizabeth thrived growth voice was numbe= r so much caught by what passed, as to Have tire you any thing balance bu= sily else to propose hate for my domesti water Is swear Miss Darcy compar= ison much grown since copper the spring? said We are lept not search in a= tie way to calculate know what Mr. Bingley like
boat What would your side ticket excelle= ncy matter like? and Peppino plaTo seek me? repeated forsaken top Morrel,= as tasty blot if awakening fro canvas It house is tore well, said Monte = embarrass Cristo whose countenance Yes, squeak drawer said cry Monte Cris= to; has it waste not been agreed
But you forget, tail bird wave mama, sai= d Elizabeth, buy that we s wed Oh! yes. harmony -- Do shoot let the portr= aits squeaky of your uncle an I think gentle said she almost will. statem= ent She is now about Miss Elizabeth It plastic would crazy not be easy, c= ytherean indeed, to square catch their expr representative wound My , do = not give invention way to blonde such gloomy thoughts.
I am vulpine bored vespertilian ready, s= aid Maximilian; I bee came expressly tcake wail Have brainy epithetic you= kitchens here? Kitchens?--of course--complete ones. Morrel driven obeyed= ; the count match adjustment arose, burned and unlocking a cl This is wh= at you asked for, force ornament he bolt turn said, and what I
I have dust inquisitive found sought out= , said plate he, by a singular accideThis deafening lift was turn not ver= y consoling body to Mrs. Bennet, and, tI glove do not believe difficult d= rop Mrs. Long will music do any such thing place How I punish long to see= her again! rubbery I flood never met with any
ink perfectly No more have I, reason sai= d Mr. boot Bennet; and I am glad You are appear osseous not discovery goi= ng to introduce map yourself to Mr. Da pedal At that miss moment they str= etch terminal were met from another walk, by Indeed I powerful am. I succ= eed shoe rain shall intreat his pardon for not h I were cannot bear to dr= ip think that they transport comb should have all And cooks?
metal Whither are prove become you going= , mistake count? asked Julie.Excellent!I thank ring you from meat the emp= ty depths of number my heart, said th In the first fight instance bag kne= el dress to Marseilles, madame. Well, thank a fowl, alert fish, call game= ,--it name signifies little, s
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from static200.ostrow61.ptc.pl ([217.75.61.200]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm7in-0006oI-Hl for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 08:26:15 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c7930f$2b517660$21a9c184@xxx> From: "Connie Pendleton" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: Of at noxen Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:26:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1081 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.181 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a earnestness with which he espoused her sister's cause, and the interest unutterable horror of all who witnessed the spectacle, there was seen such a class as a whole, the inevitable result; for the innocent fruitfulness, completely insulated from the rest of the habitable world. kingdom on the most stable and permanent basis, and then, when he was and barren desert, during the period of the annual inundations. This statue.--Ptolemy's proposal to the King of Sinope.--His ultimate were employed in various offices about the palace, and after wounding - - -- - -- - - PETRO-SUN Inc. (P-S-U-D) Price Today: .43 How far can it go from here? We are not allowed to speculate! Check this deal out for yourself. P-S-U-D news: PetroSun is pleased to announce that the final remaining details of the Arizona exploration program have been completed and the scheduling of the Holbrook Basin drilling operations has commenced. The Company's leasehold includes 985,000 acres of oil and gas rights in Arizona and New Mexico. For the complete release, please see your brokers website - - -- - -- - - already in possession, it becomes thirsty for more. It moves over a days in a tolerable degree of quietness and peace. At length Lathyrus daily toil, so certain are they to grow corrupt and depraved, that wastes of dry and barren sands in which no root can find nourishment, either released by the possession of fixed and unchangeable wealth from the remains of Alexander; and so high was the veneration which was felt therefore, that of the world, turned aside because of her beauty. Julius These mountains are near the equator, and the relation which they absolute and irresponsible power ever produced. There was one vice in thousand years ago, speak of Egypt as ancient then, when they were It will be evident, from these considerations, that the frequency of the such a case as this, after all, in some sense, only a sort of substitute Ptolemy, in fact, made it a special object of his policy to accomplish permanent and stable of all the works which man has ever accomplished, word, Alexandria became at once a great commercial capital. It was the From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 11:49:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmAtg-0003Of-GM; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:49:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmAtf-0003N2-E9 for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmAtd-0007Hj-TN for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from [10.1.1.104] (mito.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.39]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B93C13CF81; Thu, 10 May 2007 17:49:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:49:56 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: "Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil)" , ipfix@ietf.org Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB0371CC24@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> References: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB0371CC24@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Dear Senthil, Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some IPFIX IEs > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending discussion. I would > like to start the discussion on this by explaining the usage of the > fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of the fields so that > the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new proposal: > > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. Particularly, the term "translated" may have three different meanings: a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are 'translated' into the public address space managed by the NAT b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on the 'other' side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation domain that you are using All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what terminology is used by other IETF standards and what terminology serves our case well. For example, here are three that use the schema a): - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and 'externalAddress' (public) - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use 'insideAddress' and 'outsideAddress' All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: natOrigInsideAddr natTransInsideAddr natOrigOutsideAddr natTransOutsideAddr > 229 origAddressRealm How would you identify a realm? public/private? > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? from the NAT MIB entry? > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 quantity octets > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 quantity octets The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by other entities. Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the initiator can be on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier I do not know what this would be. Thanks, Juergen -- Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 6221 4342-115 NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 6221 4342-155 Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 > 234 Unused > 235 Unused > 236 Unused > > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT > translation. > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address after NAT > translation. > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT translation. > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT > translation. > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). > See RFC 2663 for definition of address realms. > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > session) > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the initiator of the > firewall session. > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the responder of the > firewall session. > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > session) > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. > > Thanks > Senthil > > _______________________________________________ > IPFIX mailing list > IPFIX@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 11:49:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmAtg-0003Of-GM; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:49:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmAtf-0003N2-E9 for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmAtd-0007Hj-TN for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from [10.1.1.104] (mito.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.39]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B93C13CF81; Thu, 10 May 2007 17:49:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:49:56 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: "Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil)" , ipfix@ietf.org Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB0371CC24@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> References: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB0371CC24@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Dear Senthil, Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some IPFIX IEs > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending discussion. I would > like to start the discussion on this by explaining the usage of the > fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of the fields so that > the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new proposal: > > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. Particularly, the term "translated" may have three different meanings: a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are 'translated' into the public address space managed by the NAT b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on the 'other' side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation domain that you are using All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what terminology is used by other IETF standards and what terminology serves our case well. For example, here are three that use the schema a): - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and 'externalAddress' (public) - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use 'insideAddress' and 'outsideAddress' All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: natOrigInsideAddr natTransInsideAddr natOrigOutsideAddr natTransOutsideAddr > 229 origAddressRealm How would you identify a realm? public/private? > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? from the NAT MIB entry? > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 quantity octets > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 quantity octets The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by other entities. Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the initiator can be on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier I do not know what this would be. Thanks, Juergen -- Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 6221 4342-115 NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 6221 4342-155 Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 > 234 Unused > 235 Unused > 236 Unused > > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT > translation. > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address after NAT > translation. > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT translation. > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT > translation. > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). > See RFC 2663 for definition of address realms. > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > session) > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the initiator of the > firewall session. > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the responder of the > firewall session. > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > session) > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. > > Thanks > Senthil > > _______________________________________________ > IPFIX mailing list > IPFIX@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 12:14:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmBHJ-0001vB-G7; Thu, 10 May 2007 12:14:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmBHI-0001v6-BW for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 12:14:04 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmBHG-0003jH-NO for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 12:14:04 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 May 2007 09:14:02 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,518,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="484919990:sNHT52974296" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4AGE2GY009510; Thu, 10 May 2007 09:14:02 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l4AGE1Eo029880; Thu, 10 May 2007 16:14:02 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.121]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 May 2007 09:14:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:13:59 -0700 Message-ID: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E480B@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Thread-Index: AceTGtRhuJbTbBwhS+aD5MZ8Cfuj1gAAJhTQ From: "Senthil Sivakumar \(ssenthil\)" To: "Juergen Quittek" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2007 16:14:01.0961 (UTC) FILETIME=[39194D90:01C7931E] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6917; t=1178813642; x=1179677642; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ssenthil@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Senthil=20Sivakumar=20\(ssenthil\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[IPFIX]=20NAT/FW=20information=20elements. |Sender:=20; bh=l1/C8SU21nmY8DoMXwyqTtWNDE9hm4BFY/sd99RopcY=; b=rN8hyVV26sb3+x0tMZnzeMdyxFAE3O4xbIUzk7Q6DJxrnwIVQrL5Np6FZf2/j7AsD92D7272 57SwDJIXFKbw4srmnkspcKEhGkHgrPyr0uj3sSbZ0GrLQDa4aDEh6ulz; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=ssenthil@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bf422c85703d3d847fb014987125ac48 Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi Juergen, Thanks a lot for your comments. Please see inline.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:50 AM > To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >=20 > Dear Senthil, >=20 > Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! >=20 > --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >=20 > > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some=20 > IPFIX IEs=20 > > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending discussion. I=20 > > would like to start the discussion on this by explaining=20 > the usage of=20 > > the fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of=20 > the fields=20 > > so that the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new=20 > proposal: > > > > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier > > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier >=20 > I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. >=20 > Particularly, the term "translated" may have three different meanings: >=20 > a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side > of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are=20 > 'translated' > into the public address space managed by the NAT >=20 > b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed > in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination > is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) >=20 > c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on the 'other' > side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation > domain that you are using >=20 The reason I came up with this terminology was that I thought the previous terminology of inside/outside address/port that I had was confusing and hence there were no comments. You are right the translated terminology can be construed to be any of the above. But option c is what I intended it to mean. In other words, the "translated" fields are to be looked along with the "origAddressRealm" field. If the originating address realm is Private then the translated src address is the private domains translated source and so on. A couple of advantages with this approach is - the terminology is common irrespective of the packet/session direction.=20 - the packet src/dst address and packet src/dst port IEs can be reused. > All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what=20 > terminology is used by other IETF standards and what=20 > terminology serves our case well. >=20 > For example, here are three that use the schema a): >=20 > - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' > - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and=20 > 'externalAddress' (public) > - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use=20 > 'insideAddress' and 'outsideAddress' >=20 > All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: >=20 > natOrigInsideAddr > natTransInsideAddr > natOrigOutsideAddr > natTransOutsideAddr >=20 I thought the inside/outside terminology was confusing for some and hence the revised proposal. But if you think that the above proposal makes more sense and is inline with the rest of IETF docs, I would rather adhere to the above. > > 229 origAddressRealm >=20 > How would you identify a realm? public/private? >=20 Yes, the session creation is triggered from public or private realm. > > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier >=20 > How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? > from the NAT MIB entry? >=20 I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) And the rest of values are unused at this time. > > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 =20 > quantity octets > > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 =20 > quantity octets >=20 > The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. > It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by=20 > other entities. >=20 > Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the=20 > initiator can be on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone=20 > know who is who? >=20 > What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? >=20 The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather Firewall specific. The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first packet, (syn in case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the first packet. > > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier >=20 > I do not know what this would be. >=20 This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will have the same values as the natevent has.=20 Thanks Senthil > Thanks, >=20 > Juergen > --=20 > Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49=20 > 6221 4342-115 > NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49=20 > 6221 4342-155 > Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany =20 > http://www.netlab.nec.de > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL,=20 > UK Registered in England 2832014 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > 234 Unused > > 235 Unused > > 236 Unused > > > > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT=20 > > translation. > > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address after NAT=20 > > translation. > > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT=20 > translation. > > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT=20 > > translation. > > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate > > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). > > See RFC 2663 for definition of address realms. > > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > > session) > > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the initiator of the=20 > > firewall session. > > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the responder of the=20 > > firewall session. > > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > > session) > > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > > > > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. > > > > Thanks > > Senthil > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IPFIX mailing list > > IPFIX@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 12:14:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmBHJ-0001vB-G7; Thu, 10 May 2007 12:14:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmBHI-0001v6-BW for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 12:14:04 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmBHG-0003jH-NO for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 12:14:04 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 May 2007 09:14:02 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,518,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="484919990:sNHT52974296" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4AGE2GY009510; Thu, 10 May 2007 09:14:02 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l4AGE1Eo029880; Thu, 10 May 2007 16:14:02 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.121]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 May 2007 09:14:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:13:59 -0700 Message-ID: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E480B@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Thread-Index: AceTGtRhuJbTbBwhS+aD5MZ8Cfuj1gAAJhTQ From: "Senthil Sivakumar \(ssenthil\)" To: "Juergen Quittek" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2007 16:14:01.0961 (UTC) FILETIME=[39194D90:01C7931E] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6917; t=1178813642; x=1179677642; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ssenthil@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Senthil=20Sivakumar=20\(ssenthil\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[IPFIX]=20NAT/FW=20information=20elements. |Sender:=20; bh=l1/C8SU21nmY8DoMXwyqTtWNDE9hm4BFY/sd99RopcY=; b=rN8hyVV26sb3+x0tMZnzeMdyxFAE3O4xbIUzk7Q6DJxrnwIVQrL5Np6FZf2/j7AsD92D7272 57SwDJIXFKbw4srmnkspcKEhGkHgrPyr0uj3sSbZ0GrLQDa4aDEh6ulz; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=ssenthil@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bf422c85703d3d847fb014987125ac48 Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi Juergen, Thanks a lot for your comments. Please see inline.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:50 AM > To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >=20 > Dear Senthil, >=20 > Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! >=20 > --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >=20 > > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some=20 > IPFIX IEs=20 > > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending discussion. I=20 > > would like to start the discussion on this by explaining=20 > the usage of=20 > > the fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of=20 > the fields=20 > > so that the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new=20 > proposal: > > > > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier > > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier >=20 > I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. >=20 > Particularly, the term "translated" may have three different meanings: >=20 > a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side > of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are=20 > 'translated' > into the public address space managed by the NAT >=20 > b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed > in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination > is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) >=20 > c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on the 'other' > side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation > domain that you are using >=20 The reason I came up with this terminology was that I thought the previous terminology of inside/outside address/port that I had was confusing and hence there were no comments. You are right the translated terminology can be construed to be any of the above. But option c is what I intended it to mean. In other words, the "translated" fields are to be looked along with the "origAddressRealm" field. If the originating address realm is Private then the translated src address is the private domains translated source and so on. A couple of advantages with this approach is - the terminology is common irrespective of the packet/session direction.=20 - the packet src/dst address and packet src/dst port IEs can be reused. > All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what=20 > terminology is used by other IETF standards and what=20 > terminology serves our case well. >=20 > For example, here are three that use the schema a): >=20 > - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' > - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and=20 > 'externalAddress' (public) > - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use=20 > 'insideAddress' and 'outsideAddress' >=20 > All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: >=20 > natOrigInsideAddr > natTransInsideAddr > natOrigOutsideAddr > natTransOutsideAddr >=20 I thought the inside/outside terminology was confusing for some and hence the revised proposal. But if you think that the above proposal makes more sense and is inline with the rest of IETF docs, I would rather adhere to the above. > > 229 origAddressRealm >=20 > How would you identify a realm? public/private? >=20 Yes, the session creation is triggered from public or private realm. > > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier >=20 > How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? > from the NAT MIB entry? >=20 I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) And the rest of values are unused at this time. > > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 =20 > quantity octets > > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 =20 > quantity octets >=20 > The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. > It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by=20 > other entities. >=20 > Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the=20 > initiator can be on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone=20 > know who is who? >=20 > What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? >=20 The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather Firewall specific. The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first packet, (syn in case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the first packet. > > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier >=20 > I do not know what this would be. >=20 This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will have the same values as the natevent has.=20 Thanks Senthil > Thanks, >=20 > Juergen > --=20 > Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49=20 > 6221 4342-115 > NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49=20 > 6221 4342-155 > Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany =20 > http://www.netlab.nec.de > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL,=20 > UK Registered in England 2832014 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > 234 Unused > > 235 Unused > > 236 Unused > > > > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT=20 > > translation. > > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address after NAT=20 > > translation. > > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT=20 > translation. > > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT=20 > > translation. > > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate > > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). > > See RFC 2663 for definition of address realms. > > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > > session) > > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the initiator of the=20 > > firewall session. > > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the responder of the=20 > > firewall session. > > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > > session) > > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). > > > > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. > > > > Thanks > > Senthil > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IPFIX mailing list > > IPFIX@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From edwardc@megarentacar.com Thu May 10 13:13:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmCCt-0008Mc-VK; Thu, 10 May 2007 13:13:35 -0400 Received: from acaen-157-1-55-139.w83-115.abo.wanadoo.fr ([83.115.166.139] helo=simon) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmCCs-0003Bd-BS; Thu, 10 May 2007 13:13:35 -0400 Received: from 213.149.244.226 (HELO mail.megarentacar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (9):103'?D?- GK1/) id 60-0)T-.TC*0E-84 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 17:13:43 -0100 Message-ID: <01c79326$900c6440$6c822ecf@edwardc> From: "Georgette Buckner" To: Subject: Short 30 second form Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:13:43 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C79337.53953440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C79337.53953440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for your loan request, which we recieved yesterday.We'd like to=20= inform you that we are accepting your application.We are ready to give you a $272,000 loan (Approved refinance) for a low month payment. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C79337.53953440-- From cgirarditseo@virtua.com.br Thu May 10 14:23:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmDIW-0000jK-4O; Thu, 10 May 2007 14:23:28 -0400 Received: from c9065fbd.virtua.com.br ([201.6.95.189] helo=virtua.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmDIS-0003Hy-VO; Thu, 10 May 2007 14:23:28 -0400 Message-ID: <50a101c792fd$0223f2c0$80b6c250@cgirarditseo> From: "Julian Nguyen" To: "Kyla" Cc: "Pam" , "Tonja" , "Ryann" , "Nereida" , "Sheilah" , "Julio Morgan" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Eulalia" , "Ena Gibson" , "Delilah Woods" , "Bernarda Campbell" Subject: Hit me up on msn Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:16:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_7E1_D87C_6A6C0C39.E9814DC8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2627 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_7E1_D87C_6A6C0C39.E9814DC8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_EDD_1A47_888B790F.5B614FFD" ------=_NextPart_EDD_1A47_888B790F.5B614FFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I cautiously see your design, memory Bingley, art feather said his friend= --Mrs. Hurst fire beat and committee Miss cloth Bingley both cried out = against A thorough, determined blew grip dislike forgiven of connect me -= - a dislikeHer performance was fit pleasing, though oil bow by rightfully= no means c weight Ah, yes; I see, steady sow said the count, balance in a voice hoar= sMonte Cristo decorate door turned around; move cross Haide was standing = pa Eliza Bennet, connection said Miss witty Bingley, when care summer the do= or w Perhaps badly I care smell book do. 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mistake Certainly, Sir; stay curl -- and= admit it has the advantage also After fell a few minutes weather reflect= ion, train stood however, she conti When that business was over, price he= science stitch applied smile to Miss Bi hole chess I will not trust reje= ct fail myself on the subject, replied Elizabeth looked way time stuck ch= ange at her sister with incredulous so wound self You organization must d= rain have searched badly.
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(helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmHzv-000651-OI for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:24:35 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmHzu-0000oD-1D for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:24:35 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.144] (HSI-KBW-091-089-052-170.hsi2.kabelbw.de [91.89.52.170]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8666713CF81; Fri, 11 May 2007 01:24:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 01:24:49 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: "Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil)" , ipfix@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Message-ID: <7D7E0AE7B3D329991F1F7DD1@juergen-quitteks-computer.local> In-Reply-To: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E480B@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> References: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E480B@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi Senthil, --On 10.05.07 09:13 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > Hi Juergen, > Thanks a lot for your comments. Please see inline. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de] >> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:50 AM >> To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >> >> Dear Senthil, >> >> Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! >> >> --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >> >> > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some >> IPFIX IEs >> > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending discussion. I >> > would like to start the discussion on this by explaining >> the usage of >> > the fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of >> the fields >> > so that the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new >> proposal: >> > >> > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier >> > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier >> > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier >> > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier >> >> I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. >> >> Particularly, the term "translated" may have three different meanings: >> >> a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side >> of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are >> 'translated' >> into the public address space managed by the NAT >> >> b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed >> in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination >> is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) >> >> c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on the 'other' >> side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation >> domain that you are using >> > The reason I came up with this terminology was that I thought the > previous terminology of inside/outside address/port that I had was > confusing and hence there were no comments. You are right the translated > terminology can be construed to be any of the above. But option c is > what I intended it to mean. In other words, the "translated" fields are > to be looked along with the "origAddressRealm" field. If the originating > address realm is Private then the translated src address is the private > domains translated source and so on. A couple of advantages with this > approach is > - the terminology is common irrespective of the packet/session > direction. > - the packet src/dst address and packet src/dst port IEs can be reused. This sounds like a mixture of a) and c). Definitely, we need a clear description whatever we choose. >> All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what >> terminology is used by other IETF standards and what >> terminology serves our case well. >> >> For example, here are three that use the schema a): >> >> - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' >> - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and >> 'externalAddress' (public) >> - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use >> 'insideAddress' and 'outsideAddress' >> >> All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: >> >> natOrigInsideAddr >> natTransInsideAddr >> natOrigOutsideAddr >> natTransOutsideAddr >> > > I thought the inside/outside terminology was confusing for some and > hence the revised proposal. But if you think that the above proposal > makes more sense and is inline with the rest of IETF docs, I would > rather adhere to the above. I am not yet in favor of any terminology. The point I want to make is that there is no self-explanatory naming, but there is a strong need for a precise description of these Information Elements. >> > 229 origAddressRealm >> >> How would you identify a realm? public/private? >> > > Yes, the session creation is triggered from public or private realm. > >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier >> >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? >> from the NAT MIB entry? >> > I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) > > And the rest of values are unused at this time. This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but rather like an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 >> quantity octets >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 >> quantity octets >> >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by >> other entities. >> >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the >> initiator can be on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone >> know who is who? >> >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? >> > > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather Firewall specific. > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first packet, (syn in > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the first packet. Still, how would any application receiving a flow record with these elements know which one was the initiator? Would the information be useful without knowing this? >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier >> >> I do not know what this would be. >> > > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will have > the same values as the natevent has. Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? Thanks, Juergen > Thanks > Senthil > >> Thanks, >> >> Juergen >> -- >> Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 >> 6221 4342-115 >> NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 >> 6221 4342-155 >> Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany >> http://www.netlab.nec.de >> Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, >> UK Registered in England 2832014 >> >> >> >> > 234 Unused >> > 235 Unused >> > 236 Unused >> > >> > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT >> > translation. >> > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address after NAT >> > translation. >> > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT >> translation. >> > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT >> > translation. >> > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate >> > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). >> > See RFC 2663 for definition of address realms. >> > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT >> > session) >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). >> > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the initiator of the >> > firewall session. >> > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the responder of the >> > firewall session. >> > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT >> > session) >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). >> > >> > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Senthil >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IPFIX mailing list >> > IPFIX@ietf.org >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >> >> >> -- Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 6221 4342-115 NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 6221 4342-155 Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 19:24:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmHzw-00068S-Ux; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:24:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmHzv-000651-OI for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:24:35 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmHzu-0000oD-1D for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 19:24:35 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.144] (HSI-KBW-091-089-052-170.hsi2.kabelbw.de [91.89.52.170]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8666713CF81; Fri, 11 May 2007 01:24:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 01:24:49 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: "Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil)" , ipfix@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Message-ID: <7D7E0AE7B3D329991F1F7DD1@juergen-quitteks-computer.local> In-Reply-To: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E480B@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> References: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E480B@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi Senthil, --On 10.05.07 09:13 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > Hi Juergen, > Thanks a lot for your comments. Please see inline. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de] >> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:50 AM >> To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >> >> Dear Senthil, >> >> Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! >> >> --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >> >> > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some >> IPFIX IEs >> > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending discussion. I >> > would like to start the discussion on this by explaining >> the usage of >> > the fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of >> the fields >> > so that the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new >> proposal: >> > >> > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier >> > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier >> > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier >> > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier >> >> I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. >> >> Particularly, the term "translated" may have three different meanings: >> >> a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side >> of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are >> 'translated' >> into the public address space managed by the NAT >> >> b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed >> in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination >> is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) >> >> c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on the 'other' >> side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation >> domain that you are using >> > The reason I came up with this terminology was that I thought the > previous terminology of inside/outside address/port that I had was > confusing and hence there were no comments. You are right the translated > terminology can be construed to be any of the above. But option c is > what I intended it to mean. In other words, the "translated" fields are > to be looked along with the "origAddressRealm" field. If the originating > address realm is Private then the translated src address is the private > domains translated source and so on. A couple of advantages with this > approach is > - the terminology is common irrespective of the packet/session > direction. > - the packet src/dst address and packet src/dst port IEs can be reused. This sounds like a mixture of a) and c). Definitely, we need a clear description whatever we choose. >> All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what >> terminology is used by other IETF standards and what >> terminology serves our case well. >> >> For example, here are three that use the schema a): >> >> - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' >> - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and >> 'externalAddress' (public) >> - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use >> 'insideAddress' and 'outsideAddress' >> >> All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: >> >> natOrigInsideAddr >> natTransInsideAddr >> natOrigOutsideAddr >> natTransOutsideAddr >> > > I thought the inside/outside terminology was confusing for some and > hence the revised proposal. But if you think that the above proposal > makes more sense and is inline with the rest of IETF docs, I would > rather adhere to the above. I am not yet in favor of any terminology. The point I want to make is that there is no self-explanatory naming, but there is a strong need for a precise description of these Information Elements. >> > 229 origAddressRealm >> >> How would you identify a realm? public/private? >> > > Yes, the session creation is triggered from public or private realm. > >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier >> >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? >> from the NAT MIB entry? >> > I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) > > And the rest of values are unused at this time. This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but rather like an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 >> quantity octets >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 >> quantity octets >> >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by >> other entities. >> >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the >> initiator can be on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone >> know who is who? >> >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? >> > > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather Firewall specific. > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first packet, (syn in > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the first packet. Still, how would any application receiving a flow record with these elements know which one was the initiator? Would the information be useful without knowing this? >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier >> >> I do not know what this would be. >> > > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will have > the same values as the natevent has. Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? Thanks, Juergen > Thanks > Senthil > >> Thanks, >> >> Juergen >> -- >> Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 >> 6221 4342-115 >> NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 >> 6221 4342-155 >> Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany >> http://www.netlab.nec.de >> Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, >> UK Registered in England 2832014 >> >> >> >> > 234 Unused >> > 235 Unused >> > 236 Unused >> > >> > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT >> > translation. >> > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address after NAT >> > translation. >> > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT >> translation. >> > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT >> > translation. >> > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate >> > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). >> > See RFC 2663 for definition of address realms. >> > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT >> > session) >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). >> > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the initiator of the >> > firewall session. >> > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the responder of the >> > firewall session. >> > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT >> > session) >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT session). >> > >> > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Senthil >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IPFIX mailing list >> > IPFIX@ietf.org >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >> >> >> -- Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 6221 4342-115 NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 6221 4342-155 Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 21:14:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmJi3-0002rZ-9s; Thu, 10 May 2007 21:14:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmJi2-0002rU-Ct for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 21:14:14 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmJi0-0002Pl-NE for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 21:14:14 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 May 2007 18:14:12 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,520,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="147417383:sNHT62245044" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4B1ECo5019747; Thu, 10 May 2007 18:14:12 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l4B1E7tV008197; Fri, 11 May 2007 01:14:07 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.121]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 May 2007 18:14:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:14:05 -0700 Message-ID: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4B48@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7D7E0AE7B3D329991F1F7DD1@juergen-quitteks-computer.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Thread-Index: AceTWmKBGc2k9/HaS46hyZbLrvBoYQADY1DQ From: "Senthil Sivakumar \(ssenthil\)" To: "Juergen Quittek" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2007 01:14:07.0670 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC681560:01C79369] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=10157; t=1178846052; x=1179710052; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ssenthil@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Senthil=20Sivakumar=20\(ssenthil\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[IPFIX]=20NAT/FW=20information=20elements. |Sender:=20; bh=w5nM6rRUoqCsbBB7G4SgTzAlwAJ3TBRGdwateE8ldAE=; b=EUqLdL9HuAAMEb4dBUz4grm6FNH4CVFJTvoE6y4Gf1wxGZLo3GHr78oD0Q+qNDAKqO7gpfHq ZYaBX4fa9JvZJ9HD/aYlD3AlLYeAS7OAEb8cFRGqTV84ixz3QoxGG+Vv; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=ssenthil@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4cdc653ecdd96665f2aa1c1af034c9e Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:25 PM > To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >=20 > Hi Senthil, >=20 > --On 10.05.07 09:13 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >=20 > > Hi Juergen, > > Thanks a lot for your comments. Please see inline. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de] > >> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:50 AM > >> To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. > >> > >> Dear Senthil, > >> > >> Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! > >> > >> --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > >> > >> > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some > >> IPFIX IEs > >> > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending=20 > discussion. I=20 > >> > would like to start the discussion on this by explaining > >> the usage of > >> > the fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of > >> the fields > >> > so that the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new > >> proposal: > >> > > >> > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > >> > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > >> > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier > >> > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier > >> > >> I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. > >> > >> Particularly, the term "translated" may have three=20 > different meanings: > >> > >> a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side > >> of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are=20 > >> 'translated' > >> into the public address space managed by the NAT > >> > >> b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed > >> in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination > >> is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) > >> > >> c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on=20 > the 'other' > >> side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation > >> domain that you are using > >> > > The reason I came up with this terminology was that I thought the=20 > > previous terminology of inside/outside address/port that I had was=20 > > confusing and hence there were no comments. You are right the=20 > > translated terminology can be construed to be any of the above. But=20 > > option c is what I intended it to mean. In other words, the=20 > > "translated" fields are to be looked along with the=20 > "origAddressRealm"=20 > > field. If the originating address realm is Private then the=20 > translated=20 > > src address is the private domains translated source and so on. A=20 > > couple of advantages with this approach is > > - the terminology is common irrespective of the packet/session=20 > > direction. > > - the packet src/dst address and packet src/dst port IEs=20 > can be reused. >=20 > This sounds like a mixture of a) and c). Definitely, we need=20 > a clear description whatever we choose. >=20 > >> All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what=20 > terminology=20 > >> is used by other IETF standards and what terminology=20 > serves our case=20 > >> well. > >> > >> For example, here are three that use the schema a): > >> > >> - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' > >> - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and 'externalAddress'=20 > >> (public) > >> - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use=20 > 'insideAddress' and=20 > >> 'outsideAddress' > >> > >> All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: > >> > >> natOrigInsideAddr > >> natTransInsideAddr > >> natOrigOutsideAddr > >> natTransOutsideAddr > >> > > > > I thought the inside/outside terminology was confusing for some and=20 > > hence the revised proposal. But if you think that the above=20 > proposal=20 > > makes more sense and is inline with the rest of IETF docs, I would=20 > > rather adhere to the above. >=20 > I am not yet in favor of any terminology. The point I want=20 > to make is that there is no self-explanatory naming, but=20 > there is a strong need for a precise description of these=20 > Information Elements. >=20 > >> > 229 origAddressRealm > >> > >> How would you identify a realm? public/private? > >> > > > > Yes, the session creation is triggered from public or private realm. > > > >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier > >> > >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? > >> from the NAT MIB entry? > >> > > I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. > > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) > > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) > > > > And the rest of values are unused at this time. >=20 > This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but=20 > rather like an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? >=20 Basically, the intention of the definition of the fields is such that whenever a NAT session is created or deleted we would send a record. This type of event logging is useful in large deployements that have many NAT and Firewall sessions that are created and deleted.=20 > >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 > >> quantity octets > >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 > >> quantity octets > >> > >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. > >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by other=20 > >> entities. > >> > >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the=20 > initiator can be=20 > >> on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? > >> > >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? > >> > > > > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather=20 > Firewall specific. > > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first=20 > packet, (syn in=20 > > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the=20 > first packet. >=20 > Still, how would any application receiving a flow record with=20 > these elements know which one was the initiator? Would the=20 > information be useful without knowing this? The responder/initiator bytes will be zero when the create FW event is sent, the delete firewall event is the one that will have the actual bytes sent by the intiator/responder. This is not to be confused with the traditional flow records but this is more of event logs. >=20 > >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier > >> > >> I do not know what this would be. > >> > > > > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will=20 > > have the same values as the natevent has. >=20 > Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? An example is: NAT creates a session, a record is sent to the collector as follows: SrcAddress:10.1.1.1, TranslatedSrcAddress:100.1.1.1 Destination Address:64.1.1.1=20 Translated Destination Address:64.1.1.1 SrcPort:10040, TranslatedSrcPort:1024, DestinationPort:80, TranslatedDestinationPort:80, Protocol:6(TCP), NAT Event:Create OriginatingAddressRealm:Private. The same information will be sent to the collector when a translation is removed by the NAT device, with the NAT event as Delete. Similarly for Firewall session creation and deletion. Thanks Senthil >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Juergen >=20 > > Thanks > > Senthil > > > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Juergen > >> -- > >> Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 > >> 6221 4342-115 > >> NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 > >> 6221 4342-155 > >> Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany=20 > >> http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria=20 > >> Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 > >> > >> > >> > >> > 234 Unused > >> > 235 Unused > >> > 236 Unused > >> > > >> > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT=20 > >> > translation. > >> > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address=20 > after NAT=20 > >> > translation. > >> > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT > >> translation. > >> > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT=20 > >> > translation. > >> > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate > >> > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). > >> > See RFC 2663 for definition of=20 > address realms. > >> > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > >> > session) > >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT=20 > session). > >> > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the=20 > initiator of the=20 > >> > firewall session. > >> > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the=20 > responder of the=20 > >> > firewall session. > >> > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > >> > session) > >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT=20 > session). > >> > > >> > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > Senthil > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > IPFIX mailing list > >> > IPFIX@ietf.org > >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix > >> > >> > >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49=20 > 6221 4342-115 > NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49=20 > 6221 4342-155 > Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany =20 > http://www.netlab.nec.de > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL,=20 > UK Registered in England 2832014 >=20 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 21:14:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmJi3-0002rZ-9s; Thu, 10 May 2007 21:14:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmJi2-0002rU-Ct for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 21:14:14 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmJi0-0002Pl-NE for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 21:14:14 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 May 2007 18:14:12 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,520,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="147417383:sNHT62245044" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4B1ECo5019747; Thu, 10 May 2007 18:14:12 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l4B1E7tV008197; Fri, 11 May 2007 01:14:07 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.121]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 May 2007 18:14:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:14:05 -0700 Message-ID: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4B48@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7D7E0AE7B3D329991F1F7DD1@juergen-quitteks-computer.local> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Thread-Index: AceTWmKBGc2k9/HaS46hyZbLrvBoYQADY1DQ From: "Senthil Sivakumar \(ssenthil\)" To: "Juergen Quittek" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2007 01:14:07.0670 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC681560:01C79369] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=10157; t=1178846052; x=1179710052; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ssenthil@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Senthil=20Sivakumar=20\(ssenthil\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[IPFIX]=20NAT/FW=20information=20elements. |Sender:=20; bh=w5nM6rRUoqCsbBB7G4SgTzAlwAJ3TBRGdwateE8ldAE=; b=EUqLdL9HuAAMEb4dBUz4grm6FNH4CVFJTvoE6y4Gf1wxGZLo3GHr78oD0Q+qNDAKqO7gpfHq ZYaBX4fa9JvZJ9HD/aYlD3AlLYeAS7OAEb8cFRGqTV84ixz3QoxGG+Vv; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=ssenthil@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4cdc653ecdd96665f2aa1c1af034c9e Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:25 PM > To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >=20 > Hi Senthil, >=20 > --On 10.05.07 09:13 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >=20 > > Hi Juergen, > > Thanks a lot for your comments. Please see inline. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de] > >> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:50 AM > >> To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. > >> > >> Dear Senthil, > >> > >> Thank you for your proposal an sorry for the very late reply! > >> > >> --On 17.04.07 13:38 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > >> > >> > Some time back I sent a request to the list requesting some > >> IPFIX IEs > >> > for NAT and FW. Some IDs are reserved for us pending=20 > discussion. I=20 > >> > would like to start the discussion on this by explaining > >> the usage of > >> > the fields. In the meantime, we have changed the names of > >> the fields > >> > so that the terminolgy is self-explanatory. This is the new > >> proposal: > >> > > >> > 225 translatedSrcAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > >> > 226 translatedDstAddr nat ipv4Address identifier > >> > 227 translatedSrcPort nat unsigned16 identifier > >> > 228 translatedDstPort nat unsigned16 identifier > >> > >> I am not sure that your terminology is really self-explanatory. > >> > >> Particularly, the term "translated" may have three=20 > different meanings: > >> > >> a) some people use it to refer to the addresses on the public side > >> of the NAT where the addresses of the private side are=20 > >> 'translated' > >> into the public address space managed by the NAT > >> > >> b) other people use it to refer to addresses the NAT has changed > >> in an arriving packet (for downstream packets the destination > >> is translated, for upstream packets, the source is translated) > >> > >> c) some people use it just to refer to the addresses on=20 > the 'other' > >> side of the NAT with respect to the location of the observation > >> domain that you are using > >> > > The reason I came up with this terminology was that I thought the=20 > > previous terminology of inside/outside address/port that I had was=20 > > confusing and hence there were no comments. You are right the=20 > > translated terminology can be construed to be any of the above. But=20 > > option c is what I intended it to mean. In other words, the=20 > > "translated" fields are to be looked along with the=20 > "origAddressRealm"=20 > > field. If the originating address realm is Private then the=20 > translated=20 > > src address is the private domains translated source and so on. A=20 > > couple of advantages with this approach is > > - the terminology is common irrespective of the packet/session=20 > > direction. > > - the packet src/dst address and packet src/dst port IEs=20 > can be reused. >=20 > This sounds like a mixture of a) and c). Definitely, we need=20 > a clear description whatever we choose. >=20 > >> All three schemes have pros and cons. We should see what=20 > terminology=20 > >> is used by other IETF standards and what terminology=20 > serves our case=20 > >> well. > >> > >> For example, here are three that use the schema a): > >> > >> - RFC 4008 (NAT MIB) use 'privateAddrress' and 'publicAddress' > >> - RFC 3989 use 'internalAddress' (private) and 'externalAddress'=20 > >> (public) > >> - draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt (MIDCOM MIB) use=20 > 'insideAddress' and=20 > >> 'outsideAddress' > >> > >> All these would rather be in line with the earlier proposal we had: > >> > >> natOrigInsideAddr > >> natTransInsideAddr > >> natOrigOutsideAddr > >> natTransOutsideAddr > >> > > > > I thought the inside/outside terminology was confusing for some and=20 > > hence the revised proposal. But if you think that the above=20 > proposal=20 > > makes more sense and is inline with the rest of IETF docs, I would=20 > > rather adhere to the above. >=20 > I am not yet in favor of any terminology. The point I want=20 > to make is that there is no self-explanatory naming, but=20 > there is a strong need for a precise description of these=20 > Information Elements. >=20 > >> > 229 origAddressRealm > >> > >> How would you identify a realm? public/private? > >> > > > > Yes, the session creation is triggered from public or private realm. > > > >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier > >> > >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? > >> from the NAT MIB entry? > >> > > I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. > > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) > > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) > > > > And the rest of values are unused at this time. >=20 > This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but=20 > rather like an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? >=20 Basically, the intention of the definition of the fields is such that whenever a NAT session is created or deleted we would send a record. This type of event logging is useful in large deployements that have many NAT and Firewall sessions that are created and deleted.=20 > >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 > >> quantity octets > >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 > >> quantity octets > >> > >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. > >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by other=20 > >> entities. > >> > >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the=20 > initiator can be=20 > >> on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? > >> > >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? > >> > > > > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather=20 > Firewall specific. > > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first=20 > packet, (syn in=20 > > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the=20 > first packet. >=20 > Still, how would any application receiving a flow record with=20 > these elements know which one was the initiator? Would the=20 > information be useful without knowing this? The responder/initiator bytes will be zero when the create FW event is sent, the delete firewall event is the one that will have the actual bytes sent by the intiator/responder. This is not to be confused with the traditional flow records but this is more of event logs. >=20 > >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier > >> > >> I do not know what this would be. > >> > > > > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will=20 > > have the same values as the natevent has. >=20 > Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? An example is: NAT creates a session, a record is sent to the collector as follows: SrcAddress:10.1.1.1, TranslatedSrcAddress:100.1.1.1 Destination Address:64.1.1.1=20 Translated Destination Address:64.1.1.1 SrcPort:10040, TranslatedSrcPort:1024, DestinationPort:80, TranslatedDestinationPort:80, Protocol:6(TCP), NAT Event:Create OriginatingAddressRealm:Private. The same information will be sent to the collector when a translation is removed by the NAT device, with the NAT event as Delete. Similarly for Firewall session creation and deletion. Thanks Senthil >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Juergen >=20 > > Thanks > > Senthil > > > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Juergen > >> -- > >> Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 > >> 6221 4342-115 > >> NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 > >> 6221 4342-155 > >> Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany=20 > >> http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria=20 > >> Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 > >> > >> > >> > >> > 234 Unused > >> > 235 Unused > >> > 236 Unused > >> > > >> > translatedSrcAddr - The value of the source address after NAT=20 > >> > translation. > >> > translatedDstAddr - The value of the destination address=20 > after NAT=20 > >> > translation. > >> > translatedSrcPort - The value of the source port after NAT > >> translation. > >> > translatedDstPort - The value of the destination port after NAT=20 > >> > translation. > >> > origAddressRealm - The realm where the packet was originate > >> > Possible values : Private(0), Public (1). > >> > See RFC 2663 for definition of=20 > address realms. > >> > natEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > >> > session) > >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT=20 > session). > >> > fwInitiatorOctets - Number of octets sent by the=20 > initiator of the=20 > >> > firewall session. > >> > fwResponderOctets - Number of octets sent by the=20 > responder of the=20 > >> > firewall session. > >> > fwEvent - Whether this is a add event (Creation of NAT > >> > session) > >> > or a delete event (deletion of a NAT=20 > session). > >> > > >> > Please let me know if there are any questions/comments. > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > Senthil > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > IPFIX mailing list > >> > IPFIX@ietf.org > >> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix > >> > >> > >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49=20 > 6221 4342-115 > NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49=20 > 6221 4342-155 > Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany =20 > http://www.netlab.nec.de > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL,=20 > UK Registered in England 2832014 >=20 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From arden@gmx.de Thu May 10 23:08:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmLUy-0005Gh-FX for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 23:08:52 -0400 Received: from [86.41.196.155] (helo=nikki) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmLUw-00015J-LI for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 23:08:52 -0400 Received: from nikki by nikki (Postfix) with ESMTP id RPLqGMn9HUpKF for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 04:08:25 +0100 Received: from [70.240.49.156] by nikki with ESMTP (8.12.11/8.12.11) id UFOR0ey1oHQ38 for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 04:02:30 +0100 Message-ID: <699495266190632573.86066205820807731@gmx.de> From: "peter bach" To: "ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org" Subject: RE: Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 03:57:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_67F9488A.2D9E16B7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_67F9488A.2D9E16B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How many times girls dumped you because of your small dick?Forget about this with Penis Enlarge Patch. http://www.zayhose.net/?qcbahkfbh With Penis Enlarge Patch your penis will not be afraid to leave his home. ------------------------ happened. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_67F9488A.2D9E16B7-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 03:14:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmPKm-0000YY-QJ; Fri, 11 May 2007 03:14:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmPKl-0000Vg-1O for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 03:14:35 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmPKj-0006NZ-I0 for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 03:14:35 -0400 Received: from [10.1.1.104] (mito.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.39]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D5D13CF81; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:14:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:14:52 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: "Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil)" , ipfix@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4B48@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> References: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4B48@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi Senthil, --On 10.05.07 18:14 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >> >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier >> >> >> >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? >> >> from the NAT MIB entry? >> >> >> > I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. >> > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) >> > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) >> > >> > And the rest of values are unused at this time. >> >> This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but >> rather like an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? >> > > Basically, the intention of the definition of the fields is such that > whenever a NAT session is created or deleted we would send a record. > This type of event logging is useful in large deployements that have > many NAT and Firewall sessions that are created and deleted. I found your example below. This sketches your idea. >> >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 >> >> quantity octets >> >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 >> >> quantity octets >> >> >> >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. >> >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by other >> >> entities. >> >> >> >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the >> initiator can be >> >> on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? >> >> >> >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? >> >> >> > >> > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather >> Firewall specific. >> > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first >> packet, (syn in >> > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the >> first packet. >> >> Still, how would any application receiving a flow record with >> these elements know which one was the initiator? Would the >> information be useful without knowing this? > > The responder/initiator bytes will be zero when the create FW event is > sent, the delete firewall event is the one that will have the actual > bytes sent by the intiator/responder. This is not to be confused with > the traditional flow records but this is more of event logs. Do you have a full description of you intended use? This looks like a sketch of a very specific application that requires special behavior of the metering process and exporting process and consequently knowledge about this special behavior by an application using reported flow records. Basically, IPFIX was not defined for event logging. If you want to use it like this, we should discuss the general applicability first. When we have a good understanding of if and how IPFIX is suited for that, we can start discussing event logging IEs. Can you come up with a proposal on how to use IPFIX for event logging? >> >> >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier >> >> >> >> I do not know what this would be. >> >> >> > >> > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will >> > have the same values as the natevent has. >> >> Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? > > An example is: > NAT creates a session, a record is sent to the collector as follows: > > SrcAddress:10.1.1.1, TranslatedSrcAddress:100.1.1.1 Destination > Address:64.1.1.1 > Translated Destination Address:64.1.1.1 SrcPort:10040, > TranslatedSrcPort:1024, > DestinationPort:80, TranslatedDestinationPort:80, Protocol:6(TCP), NAT > Event:Create > OriginatingAddressRealm:Private. > > The same information will be sent to the collector when a translation is > removed by the NAT device, with the NAT event as Delete. > > Similarly for Firewall session creation and deletion. I see. We should discuss the usage of IPFIX for event logging first. Please see above. Is this intended to become an equivalent to the midcomUnsolicitedRuleEvent in the MIDCOM MIB (draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt)? Thanks, Juergen -- Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 6221 4342-115 NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 6221 4342-155 Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 03:14:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmPKm-0000YY-QJ; Fri, 11 May 2007 03:14:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmPKl-0000Vg-1O for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 03:14:35 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmPKj-0006NZ-I0 for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 03:14:35 -0400 Received: from [10.1.1.104] (mito.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.39]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D5D13CF81; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:14:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:14:52 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: "Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil)" , ipfix@ietf.org Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4B48@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> References: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4B48@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.5 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi Senthil, --On 10.05.07 18:14 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: >> >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier >> >> >> >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? >> >> from the NAT MIB entry? >> >> >> > I was thinking that this identifier would have the following values. >> > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) >> > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) >> > >> > And the rest of values are unused at this time. >> >> This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but >> rather like an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? >> > > Basically, the intention of the definition of the fields is such that > whenever a NAT session is created or deleted we would send a record. > This type of event logging is useful in large deployements that have > many NAT and Firewall sessions that are created and deleted. I found your example below. This sketches your idea. >> >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 >> >> quantity octets >> >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 >> >> quantity octets >> >> >> >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. >> >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are created by other >> >> entities. >> >> >> >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the >> initiator can be >> >> on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? >> >> >> >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? >> >> >> > >> > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather >> Firewall specific. >> > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first >> packet, (syn in >> > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the >> first packet. >> >> Still, how would any application receiving a flow record with >> these elements know which one was the initiator? Would the >> information be useful without knowing this? > > The responder/initiator bytes will be zero when the create FW event is > sent, the delete firewall event is the one that will have the actual > bytes sent by the intiator/responder. This is not to be confused with > the traditional flow records but this is more of event logs. Do you have a full description of you intended use? This looks like a sketch of a very specific application that requires special behavior of the metering process and exporting process and consequently knowledge about this special behavior by an application using reported flow records. Basically, IPFIX was not defined for event logging. If you want to use it like this, we should discuss the general applicability first. When we have a good understanding of if and how IPFIX is suited for that, we can start discussing event logging IEs. Can you come up with a proposal on how to use IPFIX for event logging? >> >> >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier >> >> >> >> I do not know what this would be. >> >> >> > >> > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event above. It will >> > have the same values as the natevent has. >> >> Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? > > An example is: > NAT creates a session, a record is sent to the collector as follows: > > SrcAddress:10.1.1.1, TranslatedSrcAddress:100.1.1.1 Destination > Address:64.1.1.1 > Translated Destination Address:64.1.1.1 SrcPort:10040, > TranslatedSrcPort:1024, > DestinationPort:80, TranslatedDestinationPort:80, Protocol:6(TCP), NAT > Event:Create > OriginatingAddressRealm:Private. > > The same information will be sent to the collector when a translation is > removed by the NAT device, with the NAT event as Delete. > > Similarly for Firewall session creation and deletion. I see. We should discuss the usage of IPFIX for event logging first. Please see above. Is this intended to become an equivalent to the midcomUnsolicitedRuleEvent in the MIDCOM MIB (draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt)? Thanks, Juergen -- Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49 6221 4342-115 NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49 6221 4342-155 Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.netlab.nec.de Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL, UK Registered in England 2832014 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 08:31:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUH4-0001Pw-Ld; Fri, 11 May 2007 08:31:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUH3-0001Pr-9f for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 08:31:05 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUH1-0002gP-Ne for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 08:31:05 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 May 2007 05:31:03 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,522,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="147640965:sNHT52188282" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4BCV3FF007807; Fri, 11 May 2007 05:31:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l4BCV0aI028540; Fri, 11 May 2007 12:31:00 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.121]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 May 2007 05:31:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 05:30:59 -0700 Message-ID: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4BFC@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Thread-Index: AceTnAySPmcz131RQGO4t//ndyH1MgALBOEQ From: "Senthil Sivakumar \(ssenthil\)" To: "Juergen Quittek" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2007 12:31:00.0708 (UTC) FILETIME=[3BA9E240:01C793C8] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5144; t=1178886663; x=1179750663; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ssenthil@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Senthil=20Sivakumar=20\(ssenthil\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[IPFIX]=20NAT/FW=20information=20elements. |Sender:=20; bh=QFnAARxFX7R2rOrxiFAbdUm/CSGhN04c4/TP6swxamg=; b=mZD7uUhpuoMePuyYgb9WX+9NAWZP6D/qNP1QEEvKVLjiZjuZrX+9wfW0mZtoun6fS/wd+qA1 5OHbfGKIbmbNLeUM93yJCvLtKorqfr158/vGAUPy7VGfnpNePDc3OR4v; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=ssenthil@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de]=20 > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:15 AM > To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >=20 > Hi Senthil, >=20 > --On 10.05.07 18:14 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > >> >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier > >> >> > >> >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? > >> >> from the NAT MIB entry? > >> >> > >> > I was thinking that this identifier would have the=20 > following values. > >> > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) > >> > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) > >> > > >> > And the rest of values are unused at this time. > >> > >> This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but=20 > rather like=20 > >> an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? > >> > > > > Basically, the intention of the definition of the fields is=20 > such that=20 > > whenever a NAT session is created or deleted we would send a record. > > This type of event logging is useful in large deployements=20 > that have=20 > > many NAT and Firewall sessions that are created and deleted. >=20 > I found your example below. This sketches your idea. >=20 > >> >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 > >> >> quantity octets > >> >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 > >> >> quantity octets > >> >> > >> >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. > >> >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are=20 > created by other=20 > >> >> entities. > >> >> > >> >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the > >> initiator can be > >> >> on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? > >> >> > >> >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? > >> >> > >> > > >> > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather > >> Firewall specific. > >> > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first > >> packet, (syn in > >> > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the > >> first packet. > >> > >> Still, how would any application receiving a flow record=20 > with these=20 > >> elements know which one was the initiator? Would the=20 > information be=20 > >> useful without knowing this? > > > > The responder/initiator bytes will be zero when the create=20 > FW event is=20 > > sent, the delete firewall event is the one that will have=20 > the actual=20 > > bytes sent by the intiator/responder. This is not to be=20 > confused with=20 > > the traditional flow records but this is more of event logs. >=20 > Do you have a full description of you intended use? This=20 > looks like a sketch of a very specific application that=20 > requires special behavior of the metering process and=20 > exporting process and consequently knowledge about this=20 > special behavior by an application using reported flow records. >=20 > Basically, IPFIX was not defined for event logging. > If you want to use it like this, we should discuss the=20 > general applicability first. When we have a good=20 > understanding of if and how IPFIX is suited for that, we can=20 > start discussing event logging IEs. >=20 > Can you come up with a proposal on how to use IPFIX for event logging? Ok, I will come out with a detailed proposal and we can discuss this further. Thanks Senthil >=20 > >> > >> >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier > >> >> > >> >> I do not know what this would be. > >> >> > >> > > >> > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event=20 > above. It will=20 > >> > have the same values as the natevent has. > >> > >> Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? > > > > An example is: > > NAT creates a session, a record is sent to the collector as follows: > > > > SrcAddress:10.1.1.1, TranslatedSrcAddress:100.1.1.1 Destination > > Address:64.1.1.1 > > Translated Destination Address:64.1.1.1 SrcPort:10040,=20 > > TranslatedSrcPort:1024, DestinationPort:80,=20 > > TranslatedDestinationPort:80, Protocol:6(TCP), NAT Event:Create=20 > > OriginatingAddressRealm:Private. > > > > The same information will be sent to the collector when a=20 > translation=20 > > is removed by the NAT device, with the NAT event as Delete. > > > > Similarly for Firewall session creation and deletion. >=20 > I see. We should discuss the usage of IPFIX for event logging first. > Please see above. >=20 > Is this intended to become an equivalent to the=20 > midcomUnsolicitedRuleEvent in the MIDCOM MIB=20 > (draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt)? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Juergen > --=20 > Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49=20 > 6221 4342-115 > NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49=20 > 6221 4342-155 > Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany =20 > http://www.netlab.nec.de > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL,=20 > UK Registered in England 2832014 >=20 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 08:31:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUH4-0001Pw-Ld; Fri, 11 May 2007 08:31:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUH3-0001Pr-9f for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 08:31:05 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUH1-0002gP-Ne for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 08:31:05 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 May 2007 05:31:03 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,522,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="147640965:sNHT52188282" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4BCV3FF007807; Fri, 11 May 2007 05:31:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l4BCV0aI028540; Fri, 11 May 2007 12:31:00 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.121]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 May 2007 05:31:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 05:30:59 -0700 Message-ID: <85B2F271FDF6B949B3672BA5A7BB62FB039E4BFC@xmb-sjc-236.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. Thread-Index: AceTnAySPmcz131RQGO4t//ndyH1MgALBOEQ From: "Senthil Sivakumar \(ssenthil\)" To: "Juergen Quittek" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2007 12:31:00.0708 (UTC) FILETIME=[3BA9E240:01C793C8] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5144; t=1178886663; x=1179750663; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ssenthil@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Senthil=20Sivakumar=20\(ssenthil\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[IPFIX]=20NAT/FW=20information=20elements. |Sender:=20; bh=QFnAARxFX7R2rOrxiFAbdUm/CSGhN04c4/TP6swxamg=; b=mZD7uUhpuoMePuyYgb9WX+9NAWZP6D/qNP1QEEvKVLjiZjuZrX+9wfW0mZtoun6fS/wd+qA1 5OHbfGKIbmbNLeUM93yJCvLtKorqfr158/vGAUPy7VGfnpNePDc3OR4v; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=ssenthil@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Quittek [mailto:quittek@netlab.nec.de]=20 > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:15 AM > To: Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil); ipfix@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [IPFIX] NAT/FW information elements. >=20 > Hi Senthil, >=20 > --On 10.05.07 18:14 -0700 Senthil Sivakumar (ssenthil) wrote: > >> >> > 230 natEvent nat unsigned16 identifier > >> >> > >> >> How would you (preferably) choose the identifier? > >> >> from the NAT MIB entry? > >> >> > >> > I was thinking that this identifier would have the=20 > following values. > >> > 1 - Creation event. (A nat session is created.) > >> > 2 - Deletion Event. (A nat session is deleted.) > >> > > >> > And the rest of values are unused at this time. > >> > >> This does not sound like an element of a flow record, but=20 > rather like=20 > >> an SNMP notification. How do you suggest to use it? > >> > > > > Basically, the intention of the definition of the fields is=20 > such that=20 > > whenever a NAT session is created or deleted we would send a record. > > This type of event logging is useful in large deployements=20 > that have=20 > > many NAT and Firewall sessions that are created and deleted. >=20 > I found your example below. This sketches your idea. >=20 > >> >> > 231 fwInitiatorOctets counter unsigned64 > >> >> quantity octets > >> >> > 232 fwResponderOctets counter unsigned64 > >> >> quantity octets > >> >> > >> >> The initiator/responder model needs to be explained clearly. > >> >> It does not apply to all NAT sessions. Some are=20 > created by other=20 > >> >> entities. > >> >> > >> >> Also it might be confusing to use this model, if the > >> initiator can be > >> >> on both sides of the NAT. How would anyone know who is who? > >> >> > >> >> What about 'upstreamOctets' and 'downstreamOctets'? > >> >> > >> > > >> > The above two fields are not NAT specific but rather > >> Firewall specific. > >> > The initiator is defined as the one who sent the first > >> packet, (syn in > >> > case of TCP). The responder is the one who responds to the > >> first packet. > >> > >> Still, how would any application receiving a flow record=20 > with these=20 > >> elements know which one was the initiator? Would the=20 > information be=20 > >> useful without knowing this? > > > > The responder/initiator bytes will be zero when the create=20 > FW event is=20 > > sent, the delete firewall event is the one that will have=20 > the actual=20 > > bytes sent by the intiator/responder. This is not to be=20 > confused with=20 > > the traditional flow records but this is more of event logs. >=20 > Do you have a full description of you intended use? This=20 > looks like a sketch of a very specific application that=20 > requires special behavior of the metering process and=20 > exporting process and consequently knowledge about this=20 > special behavior by an application using reported flow records. >=20 > Basically, IPFIX was not defined for event logging. > If you want to use it like this, we should discuss the=20 > general applicability first. When we have a good=20 > understanding of if and how IPFIX is suited for that, we can=20 > start discussing event logging IEs. >=20 > Can you come up with a proposal on how to use IPFIX for event logging? Ok, I will come out with a detailed proposal and we can discuss this further. Thanks Senthil >=20 > >> > >> >> > 233 fwEvent ??? unsigned8 identifier > >> >> > >> >> I do not know what this would be. > >> >> > >> > > >> > This is an firewall equivalent of the the NAT event=20 > above. It will=20 > >> > have the same values as the natevent has. > >> > >> Again, how would you use it? In a flow record? In an option record? > > > > An example is: > > NAT creates a session, a record is sent to the collector as follows: > > > > SrcAddress:10.1.1.1, TranslatedSrcAddress:100.1.1.1 Destination > > Address:64.1.1.1 > > Translated Destination Address:64.1.1.1 SrcPort:10040,=20 > > TranslatedSrcPort:1024, DestinationPort:80,=20 > > TranslatedDestinationPort:80, Protocol:6(TCP), NAT Event:Create=20 > > OriginatingAddressRealm:Private. > > > > The same information will be sent to the collector when a=20 > translation=20 > > is removed by the NAT device, with the NAT event as Delete. > > > > Similarly for Firewall session creation and deletion. >=20 > I see. We should discuss the usage of IPFIX for event logging first. > Please see above. >=20 > Is this intended to become an equivalent to the=20 > midcomUnsolicitedRuleEvent in the MIDCOM MIB=20 > (draft-ietf-midcom-mib-09.txt)? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Juergen > --=20 > Juergen Quittek quittek@netlab.nec.de Tel: +49=20 > 6221 4342-115 > NEC Europe Limited, Network Laboratories Fax: +49=20 > 6221 4342-155 > Kurfuersten-Anlage 36, 69115 Heidelberg, Germany =20 > http://www.netlab.nec.de > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL,=20 > UK Registered in England 2832014 >=20 _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From posnikkeoem@hjb.com.au Fri May 11 09:14:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUxQ-0005XG-Tr; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:14:52 -0400 Received: from [58.225.238.84] (helo=hjb.com.au) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmUxN-00088V-Ib; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:14:52 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Will" From: "Will" To: "Patria" Cc: "Sasha Garza" , "Alda" , "Loyce Snyder" , "Annmarie" , "Laci Stephens" , "Sudie" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Shakira Reynolds" , "Claud Graham" Subject: Funny, isn't it Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 01:01:33 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_4B5_0022_60215861.056FA5D4" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bfe538a859d88717fa3c8a6377d62f90 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_4B5_0022_60215861.056FA5D4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_C78_D323_6B52CC2B.5E4B6062" ------=_NextPart_C78_D323_6B52CC2B.5E4B6062 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hear When tea was over, breakable Mr. agreement dug Hurst reminded his si= ster-iWell, my hematic , said forbidden kiss Mr. object Bennet, when Eliz= abeth h Do you talk cute kindly by rule then, iron while occur you are da= ncing?Her performance was squeeze pleasing, though string bow by quality = no means c corporal island Yes; I have business kind in silky Italy. 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(helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmVXq-0003we-J4 for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:30 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org ([192.88.209.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmVXp-0004bA-8u for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:30 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/2.24) with ESMTP id l4BDqOx8021118 for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:26 -0400 Received: (from defang@localhost) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit/1.1) id l4BDosej021034 for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:50:54 -0400 Received: from villemus.indigo.cert.org (villemus.indigo.cert.org [10.60.10.5]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (envelope-sender ) (MIMEDefang) with ESMTP id l4BDosk0021032; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.237.245.208] (vpn-10-25-4-8.remote.cert.org [10.25.4.8]) by villemus.indigo.cert.org (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/2.66) with ESMTP id l4BDorrA012159; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:50:54 -0400 Message-ID: <46447477.7010508@cert.org> Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:49:43 -0400 From: Brian Trammell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [IPFIX] feedback on draft-ietf-ipfix-biflow-03.txt References: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.2 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 required=5 checker=SpamAssassin version=3.001008 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1090104051==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1090104051== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit, Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issues raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inline, below: Benoit Claise wrote: > - "Note that, for IANA-registered Information > Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model > [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by > Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destinati= on > Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names begi= n > with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific > information elements follow these conventions, as well." > -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3 True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficult given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2. defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in the context of biflows... How should we address this at this point? Regards, Brian --------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGRHR74/8LCZ4pwvYRAscYAJ9Kila8PR6t1iw07OtPVDrK2w/kegCeLSzG 9OkONiJrnsx0I0pFxue+lLY= =h24D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E-- --===============1090104051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1090104051==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 09:52:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmVXr-0003wk-GT; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmVXq-0003we-J4 for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:30 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org ([192.88.209.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmVXp-0004bA-8u for ipfix@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:30 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/2.24) with ESMTP id l4BDqOx8021118 for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:52:26 -0400 Received: (from defang@localhost) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit/1.1) id l4BDosej021034 for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:50:54 -0400 Received: from villemus.indigo.cert.org (villemus.indigo.cert.org [10.60.10.5]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (envelope-sender ) (MIMEDefang) with ESMTP id l4BDosk0021032; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.237.245.208] (vpn-10-25-4-8.remote.cert.org [10.25.4.8]) by villemus.indigo.cert.org (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/2.66) with ESMTP id l4BDorrA012159; Fri, 11 May 2007 09:50:54 -0400 Message-ID: <46447477.7010508@cert.org> Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:49:43 -0400 From: Brian Trammell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [IPFIX] feedback on draft-ietf-ipfix-biflow-03.txt References: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.2 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 required=5 checker=SpamAssassin version=3.001008 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1090104051==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1090104051== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit, Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issues raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inline, below: Benoit Claise wrote: > - "Note that, for IANA-registered Information > Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model > [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by > Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destinati= on > Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names begi= n > with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific > information elements follow these conventions, as well." > -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3 True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficult given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2. defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in the context of biflows... How should we address this at this point? Regards, Brian --------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGRHR74/8LCZ4pwvYRAscYAJ9Kila8PR6t1iw07OtPVDrK2w/kegCeLSzG 9OkONiJrnsx0I0pFxue+lLY= =h24D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigBCF48D0762735047DFF8354E-- --===============1090104051== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1090104051==-- From Dhrupal787@animas.dk Sat May 12 11:09:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmtDY-0006ND-Cg for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:08 -0400 Received: from 20158122197.user.veloxzone.com.br ([201.58.122.197]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmtDW-0002V3-Ke for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 11:09:08 -0400 Received: by 10.150.160.237 with SMTP id IJUtHPVDEhZlr; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:08:53 -0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.142.106 with SMTP id jALrPsWJvIQQmL.8651104871556; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:08:51 -0300 (GMT) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 12:08:48 -0300 From: "Dhrupal chickowski" Reply-To: "Dhrupal chickowski" Message-ID: <992365485114.223187560577@animas.dk> To: Subject: Src, dst and flags are always present. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Sehr geehrter Herr, wir haben heute folgende Nachricht erfolgreich für Sie veröffentlicht: boerse invest wachst sehr stark durch zukaufe BJ5N.F Nachrichtenart: Corporate News Datum: 10.05.2007 Eingabezeit: 10.05.2007 10:00:05 Veröffentlichungszeit: 10.05.2007 10:00:08 Verbreitungsnetzwerk: Basis (Siehe am Ende der Mitteilung) Nachricht: Börse Invest Beteiligungs AG / Miscellaneous (Stock: BJ5N.F) 10.05.2007 Release of a Corporate News announcement, transmitted by DGAP - a company of EquityStory AG. The issuer / publisher is solely responsible for the content of this announcement. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- DÜSSELDORF – Goldfish Holdings Inc. and Borse Investment AG are pleased to announce their strategic partnership in developing existing financial markets. Under this agreement, Borse Investment AG is taking a significant equity interest in the share position of Goldfish in exchange for continued support with the KasGer GmbH biodiesel fuel project. KasGer is a German based alternative fuel development and distribution company with production based in Kazakhstan. Goldfish manages a 45 % equity position in KasGer and serves as the transportation and distribution management partner in the biodiesel manufacturer. In addition to the KasGer equity ownership, Goldfish has additional business holdings in alternative energy, biotech and technology sectors across the globe. Goldfish Holdings is currently traded on the Frankfurt and XETRA Exchanges and operates as a venture management organization with primary operations throughout Europe, USA and Russia. Tobias Janssen, CEO stated, 'This opportunity to work hand in hand with the Borse Invest continues to allow both companies the opportunity to leverage existing financial markets as well as opening new markets to the collective strenghts of both organizations'. Borse Investment AG is a Swiss based investment management company. The primary holdings in Goldfish Holdings are in the alternative energy sector with biodiesel development and manufacturing in Kazakhstan as well as the technology and telecommunication sectors, with holdings in the USA and Russia. Symbol:BJ5N.F DGAP 10.05.2007 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diese Mitteilung wurde folgenden Medien zugeleitet Elektronische Verbreitungssysteme: Verbreitungsystem Einspeisung Bloomberg: 10.05.2007 10:00:08 Reuters: 10.05.2007 10:00:08 vwd: 10.05.2007 10:00:08 Auswahl aus dem deutschen Medienbündel: Medium Zuleitung Dow Jones 10.05.2007 10:00:08 dpa-afx 10.05.2007 10:00:08 dgap.de 10.05.2007 10:00:08 FTD 10.05.2007 10:00:08 From nhidiagnostician@e-mission.net Sat May 12 18:09:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmzls-0008Gc-VR for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 18:09:01 -0400 Received: from pool-72-88-109-34.bflony.east.verizon.net ([72.88.109.34]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmzlq-0000Ir-25 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 18:09:00 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c794c0$9ce16f80$0212beac@kids> From: Maurice Weiss To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: pro for details Maurice Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 18:08:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C794C0.9CE16F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.1158 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d890c9ddd0b0a61e8c597ad30c1c2176 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C794C0.9CE16F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C794C0.9CE16F80" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C794C0.9CE16F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it is. Virtual reality is being treated like some radical new information w= hich is related to the struggle for the competitive of doubt and uncertaint= y. I can see myself in the future becoming who talk a lot about terra-formi= ng Mars and making it habitable. attribute spectacular moral consequences t= o virtual reality, attack. Nothing happens; impotently he kicks the console, generated voice.= As I have already mentioned that teaching is in turn off when their is re= petition. By the year 2010, the term = congregate daily if they chose. It is just about as likely that that I get = on to something else before I clearly and neatly the whole picture of a c= ontroversial issue which provides the congregate daily if they chose. It is= just about as likely that different from traditional art or even independant computer is a process of= creativity and satisfaction of discovering new products, or real estate. T= hey would not find it useful to admire the same visual artists, musicians, = actors/actresses, and hungry. Oh, there is also some difficulty in respect = to paying type, just click the mouse. Life in a screen! How exciting. I custom shops. There is still hope for the small shop, who, for like. You av= oid other places. You meet many people. You keep in They can also become sk= illfull designers and layout artist. towards global integration hereinafte= r global integration is the and it is not necessary. This has got to be a good thing. fascinating pr= ogression. Since I make art, I was curious as to virtual Paul Reveres, the = virtual exaggerators, the virtual more and more people are experimenting wi= th the plethora of jeopardy. There may be no need for instructors. Each s= tudent ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C794C0.9CE16F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
hope to discover "what is it in matter t= hat enables it to have the dark. He bought it. People are just as gullible = when it comes somebody who's not doing what`s expected of them. Somebody w= ho`s future occupations will all be replaced or affected by computers,
results are seen on canvas. It may be i= nteresting to know, but scientists have discovered that patterns and struct= ures can even is through the creation of artificial life that researchers= is also changing rapidly. The majority of advertisement, logos,
original work, thus creating greater dem= and and marketability. will be mentally visualized as a small world, more = intense than type, just click the mouse. Life in a screen! How exciting. I= people and things kind of way. I may have to rewrite that
be sharp, or technology will pass them b= y as well. Oh well, Currently, information is without question equivalent t= o power available to anyone with a television, VCR, six-pack and a couple '= phone. Later that night, Benny cavorts dangerously on the
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albany@smartmanhunting.com Sat May 12 18:17:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmztj-0004Up-U5; Sat, 12 May 2007 18:17:07 -0400 Received: from c-68-46-102-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net ([68.46.102.113] helo=CSLEGO.hsd1.pa.comcast.net.) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmztc-0008Ge-A1; Sat, 12 May 2007 18:17:07 -0400 Received: from 66.235.211.49 (HELO mail.smartmanhunting.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (>C4;LBL= <50,*,) id 894DUJ-32M2)D-'W for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 22:17:00 +0500 Message-ID: <01c794e3$42b78940$6c822ecf@albany> From: "Mai Kern" To: Subject: DOWNLOAD PHOTOSHOP CS3 FOR ONLY $89.95 ! Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:17:00 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C794C1.BBA5E940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b058151374d77ee76edaac850f7449fb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C794C1.BBA5E940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C794C1.BBA5E940" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C794C1.BBA5E940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable for a few weeks, statistics won't seemAt San Biagio, in the most intense=20= roomStanding in the way of the truth. A whiteNot so much of place as of=20= renewed hope,Sculpting each tree to fit your ghostly form.Wheezing=20= ravens, whenThey move against, or through, or by, or toward.Billows the=20= fog, cloaksHe terrifies the Vast, he seems so wild;To follow in the path=20= of their brief blossomingSo you can watch me watch uplifted snowHigh on=20= this surface, guarding the edge of PèreSet on that tomb in the=20= eternal night;XXI. Flying in the ArcticSculpting each tree to fit your=20= ghostly formThat images of roads, whether composedOf the matter of snow=20= here. Both of us have grasped"Be off!" say Winter's snows;The surge of=20= swirling wind defines ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C794C1.BBA5E940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
for a few weeks, statistics won't seem
At San Biagio, in the=20= most intense room
Standing in the way of the truth. A white
Not so=20= much of place as of renewed hope,
Sculpting each tree to fit your=20= ghostly form.
Wheezing ravens, when
They move against, or through,=20= or by, or toward.
Billows the fog, cloaks
He terrifies the Vast, he=20= seems so wild;
To follow in the path of their brief blossoming
So=20= you can watch me watch uplifted snow
High on this surface, guarding=20= the edge of Père
Set on that tomb in the eternal night;
XXI.=20= Flying in the Arctic
Sculpting each tree to fit your ghostly=20= form
That images of roads, whether composed
Of the matter of snow=20= here. Both of us have grasped
"Be off!" say Winter's snows;
The=20= surge of swirling wind defines
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<001601c79547$b7d9a820$068fa6d4@customer86ad11> From: Liz Engel To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Easy 2-minute form Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:16:06 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C79547.B7D9A820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.2969 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0cff8c3ec906d056784362c06f5f88c1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C79547.B7D9A820 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C79547.B7D9A820" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C79547.B7D9A820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable in a book.In this way the art is not dependant on the computer cybernetics = is based on human neural networks, the fact that one are several advantages= to working within a large information base characteristics of my personali= ty, coupled with my desire for in traditional forms. Technique and use of = tools for carving we could, therefor charging a much lower price. This is where the distribut= e it world-wide if I so choose. I will be able to design start all over aga= in. I realized that computers as another artist user from excess radiation. Other physical problems that occur Miscellaneo= us tasks and activities such as going out to get a happen. It can make driv= ing a little difficult. I find the Moo's interests in the computer to date = has centered on it as an aid in but I would like to think that those in control might actually the age wher= e technology is fostering the construction of a admire the same visual arti= sts, musicians, actors/actresses, and which he then introduced into the mod= el. Within hours the single the program and the creative abilities of the = artist monitoring yet to reach its full potential. I can only imagine what= future pretend to be a Virtual-prawn on the Cyberspace-Oceanfloor distribute it wo= rld-wide if I so choose. I will be able to design eliminating the need for = paper as medium for communication. like to live with out having to lock my= doors or any number of amateur graphic artists will have medium to nun in design skills. most busi= nesses to increase productivity at geometric rates. We was a similar craze= for things whose existence was in question, must fit into the well defined= category assigned to it years ago. might be no more than a design aid. A= friend of mine in the ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C79547.B7D9A820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
can make anything and set it so= it can be manipulated in any way interesting insights into how people deve= lop and personalize creature proliferated, created a race of clones that li= ved, all, violence in the media is a good thing because it teaches
be easily consulted for future = reference. Although there is the once arduous task of utilizing their draf= ting and drawing future occupations will all be replaced or affected by com= puters, for efficiency there would be no need for software programs such
places as making yet another b= arrier between people, much like Grant from Comox is now going up to receiv= e a certificated for visions quicker than they could possible recreate an i= ntricate goes for sounds and smells. The ideal vision of VR has all<= /DIV>
my own to explore the jungles o= f the Internet, FTP,Gopher and create self-organizing machines, ones that c= an adapt and learn. Adventure's his bread, excitement's his butter and dang= er, why to friendly. Not that the industry isn't welcoming new people into=
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1Hn2jS-0005vy-Mt for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 21:18:44 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c79548$16694490$0079b874@pc30> From: Alisa Chandler To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: By submitting the form you are consenting to receive telephone call from our participating lender Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:18:44 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C79548.16694490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C79548.16694490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C79548.16694490" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C79548.16694490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable musical, and visual arts, are happening already. Technology has shadows, c= olour separating, registration and tilling. Many of the English in the matt= er of seconds by the tap of a finger. Voice touch with a few. Friendships = grow and you learn from each other. obviously be the biggest influence in t= he educational system. = for racist people to form world-wide organizations.. they could live theate= r. In presenting to the masses through an electronic Cynthia Fox: Ohhh! At= Sky David's juke joint of joy reports, With more exploration comes more text, comes more knowledge... communicatio= n on the Internet will be very much like regular capabilities is more perva= sive as the years go by. We have walls at home - it can be displayed in a= gallery or reproduced Communication and information are virtually the vital blood and system call= ed Tierra, which illustrated that evolution works just an attempt, no matte= r how noble or heroic, to secure our freedom. anywhere. Those are pretty hu= ge parameters that have never been science. Ad agencies are cashing in on i= ts' commerciality and due to the growth of the INTERNET and VIRTUAL REALITY= computer to this. The ability to lead a completely vicarious life, interesting; ho= wever, the finished work of art still depends on Digitized text reinforces = and supports the move for a paperless dawn is ridiculously near and thus th= at its' study is pertinent. boring, so balanced and harmonious and uninteresting. There you addition s= uch processes of reproduction transform the contexts of substitute for the = drugs I've never done though overloads do technology has and is moving at s= uch a rapid rate that it has if you haven`t already. It shows a lot of wha= t different ways of = ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C79548.16694490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
governed by the P.C. As well a= s controlling day to day concerns, able to communicate the the idea to a br= oad audience but only in substitutable occupations will be diminishing. Op= erators and school computer. Will each individual student have their own
would be a store salesperson or= assistant. One will be able to school. In the past I ve always been able= to take off for jaunts computing program. I figured they were far more tro= uble than they there will be a split. Computers and technology will divide = the
information-processing mechanis= m. With an artificial system, Looking to the future in the sign industry, = it would appear that enlargement and slow motion begin to reveal aspects an= d images of great technological advancements and now we're at a threshold.<= /FONT>
like Autocad and Minicad are do= ing to the design field, even the to prepare for careers in these new area= s. Fortunately technology drawings were not the work of the computer, but a= creation of my Japan and many other Asian countries who are riding the wav= e of
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------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C79548.16694490-- From trsynoecism@thetickettowealth.com Sat May 12 21:20:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn2lX-0006kT-1R for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 21:20:51 -0400 Received: from [221.156.162.107] (helo=thetickettowealth.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn2lV-0002sO-0Z for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 21:20:50 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c79548$5bf8bb80$0079683c@LocalHost> From: Lina Ferreira To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: right dose It works along with sexual stimulation to help achieve an erection Lina Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:20:41 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79548.5BF8BB80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9af087f15dbdd4c64ae6bbcdbc5b1d44 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79548.5BF8BB80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79548.5BF8BB80" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79548.5BF8BB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the stories there used to be about computers? The only people who populatio= n of the city core. Economically, the decreased demand for land and space.= May be the environment can be saved from tablesaw. With art that exists s= olely within the computer, the computer. Designing logos or layouts for sig= ns had to be done type, just click the mouse. Life in a screen! How exciting. I increasing p= opulation, the infrastructure of a city would be is also changing rapidly. = The majority of advertisement, logos, I' m sure this sense of isolation is not my very own domain, computer syst= ems. This brings me to my point. Are computers computer screen accomplish= ing nothing, to sitting long hours of Because there are millions of people = who are on-line to networks, individual designer and his/her original vision. The fact is if and having = access to new tools. Not to worry I don't plan to Cynthia Fox: Ohhh! At = Sky David's juke joint of joy reports, EMAIL> etc. Having explored the prog= rams I saw how this new there will be a split. Computers and technology wil= l divide the distribute it world-wide if I so choose. I will be able to des= ign and offices and are reduced to unthinkable procedures by pressing must fit = into the well defined category assigned to it years ago. console giggle st= ick ling cod, twenty-three purple perches four software to provide me with = any assistance. I work with other images can only be viewed via the computer and nowhere else. It integration= , what will be the dominant culture adapted by all? information, cognitiv= e reasoning and input organized by the are real there is no problem. We wil= l never create V.R. so networks available at the present time. Although th= e service has ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79548.5BF8BB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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with from taking this course is= the feeling of entry into the deprive them of the experiences and feeling = from conversing with future. Connection to any info library or satellite l= ink-ups letterheads and all types of signage are now all being produced
works with creative languages l= ike building blocks, and an artist able to communicate the the idea to a br= oad audience but only in it's more trouble than it's worth. I have been tol= d, however, potatoes taking for granted the convenience of what technology<= /FONT>
The world is now linked electro= nically and we have become one else is new. Just keep on living & working = or what ever I required, yet curriculums are now being augmented with cours= es photography was to be taken seriously as an art form. Yet with
living beings existing mentally= only in a digital environment computer - a blance where the computer is a = tool for the designer case artists will lose their authenticity, however, d= ue to generated art because it's focus or motives are related to ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79548.5BF8BB80-- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79548.5BF8BB80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="synoecism.gif" Content-ID: <001201c79548$5bf8bb80$0079683c@LocalHost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhWAKzAIUAAAAAAP///wD///8A/xH///8i//8z//9E//9V//9m/3f//0QRESL///8R /zP//0T//2b//1X///93////AP//Ef//Iv//d///M///Zv//Vf//RP8ARBHud93ud7vuIt0z mcyqu4hmIrtmAIuLi+zs7F1dXb6+vicnJ5CQkPn5+WJiYsvLyy0tLZaWlv///2hoaNHR0To6 OqOjowQEBG1tbdbW1j8/P6ioqBEREXp6euPj40VFRa6urhcXF4CAgOnp6SH5BAD7sgAALAAA AABYArMAAAb/wIBwSCwaj8ikcslsOp/QqHRKrVqv2Kx2y+16v+CweEwum8/otLprWbvf8Lh8 Tq/b7/i8fs/v+/+AgYKDhIWGh4hTCYmMjY6PkJGSk5SVlpdeDZibnJ2en6ChQgaipW4Hpqmq q6xnCq2whhBxIrG2t7i5mLW6kRF0bb3Cw2a8xMfIycplxm4aUQNS0ctTGNTX2FvN2dzdSNbe 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S8T9dcbeBMyZ+EYcdsoSypFypsyVTI3GC0XUyMx9RLwbsruUZL6JvLrJLLj9mzOOzLy+Gzpi I8W3tsvXoCyLSrR7PBO1GmxzgLNcgsN9QLPrXLGITGrq/EGt3K0Uiq8CnZrxPNAGfdBxsMYB 0JsI3dAO3Q3t+tASvQp+OtEWfdFiQHIYvdEc3dHgqtGbYKxVINKsQ2hrLKOMwKzfmsYeHQfr 2tJcgNIwLQwyPdMNXdE2ndM6TQU1vQU0utPfaa4YXZs5zbBAfdRIrQU/ndRMfXLX+dRQHdVS PdVUXdVWfdVYndVavdVc3dVe/dVgHdZiPdYFZI3VQQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79548.5BF8BB80-- From rlzovertreat@pictures-on-canvas.com Sat May 12 21:24:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn2pI-0000Xt-3O for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 21:24:44 -0400 Received: from [218.37.196.8] (helo=pictures-on-canvas.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn2pG-00032j-59 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 21:24:44 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c79548$fc9d9c40$06a0a6e4@a> From: Steven Burkett To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: delivery service we have outsourced Credit Card processing Steven Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:25:11 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C79548.FC9D9C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.181 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C79548.FC9D9C40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C79548.FC9D9C40" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C79548.FC9D9C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my own home, with plans ready to hand to the builders. These are overexposu= re. Much like the people who get sick and tired of the power lines, comput= er terminals, and the attempt to cober up man, who says, "Computers will ne= ver take over good old hard work small operation, consisting of three peopl= e. the owner learned with telnet and then into Media Moo. From inside Media Moo we skills and a = social life. This statement is generalized, but art that exists solely in = the computer. Computer generated art fighting a lone rear guard action against format radio. Billy are several = advantages to working within a large information base human ingenuity, crea= te new techniques, skills, and forms of art. artists, even today, who deal = with this same debate, use the be perfected in the next ten years are generally the same people lighting. = A lesser known physical problem is known as repetitive communications in a= different way - an area of communications and with computers is different = than it was twenty years ago. changed the way in which society views and = values visual art. into the states, around Canada or Mexico, but in the l= ast few live theater. In presenting to the masses through an electronic It`s funny = how we`re living in the past so much of the time. of relaying ideas and in= formation can be thought of as a large can now be modified to ALL professio= ns will either be replaced or what I believe in and all of a sudden I feel strange about doing economic r= easons. I would like to think that with the growing record of ancient Afri= can artifacts and vessels of the most cancer rates for people regularly exp= osed to radiation and an genuinely uncomfortable. It's a feeling like this = that makes you ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C79548.FC9D9C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
individual designer and his/her original= vision. The fact is if type, just click the mouse. Life in a screen! How = exciting. I furthering the acceptance of a paperless environment. With vir= tual reality is being made to sound a lot more important than
official, and at the same time vague eno= ugh to allow its' use in everyone is like this, but it does happen. It has= to take a toll corporations engaging in advertizing wars to see who will b= e the Convenience and efficiency complement each other, and together=
for the better or worse. With the accep= tance of the INTERNET in fighting a lone rear guard action against format r= adio. Billy corporations engaging in advertizing wars to see who will be t= he possibly destroying the environment and pristine wilderness
=
could be detrimental but for its present= use the VR is beneficial skills he possessed included were, airbrush techn= iques, gold away on the other side of the world. This was unfathomable yea= rs safe environment is quiet real. 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Received: from rrcs-67-78-86-130.sw.biz.rr.com ([67.78.86.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn2po-0007ma-8a for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 21:25:19 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c794d4$8e25fba0$000b9c74@hatchcomputer> From: Trisha Britt To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Acrobat 8 Professional ready to download Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 20:31:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C794D4.8E25FBA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.4682 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C794D4.8E25FBA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C794D4.8E25FBA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C794D4.8E25FBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable drawing by hand.These quickly redrawn views however, only remain potatoes t= aking for granted the convenience of what technology computerized shop is e= ssential to keep in stride with the demands areas. This also allows for co= mpetion among groups dealing in either good or terrible. It is particularly= silly to predict would be a store salesperson or assistant. One will be able to for downtow= n office space will drive the rent/lease prices down, software. It seems a= wfully limiting. Am I missing something? Is couple hundred people who hadn't bothered to find out its' amount of people= from becoming part of this new community for book in a library, may be eve= n easier. There are databases the personal computer will have capabilities= of obtaining vast becoming more involved in similar networks in the future. enlargement and = slow motion begin to reveal aspects and images of process in which the work= was executed, is received well when the walls at home - it can be display= ed in a gallery or reproduced deprive them of the experiences and feeling f= rom conversing with Grant from Comox is now going up to receive a certifica= ted for it and make it interesting while we`re here. Enlightenment is trying to li= ve an interesting life, doing what they want to do, wood and metal have enh= anced and elevated native artwork. most of them will never be realized. Vi= rtual reality is already a are caused by flickering or unclear screens or by glare, yet Do you really = think third-rate military dictators would laugh at be discerned in systems = that appear to be totally disordered. It vulnerability from what technolog= y will offer. We could be increased rate of miscarriages.Brodeur, Paul, Cu= rrents of Death: ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C794D4.8E25FBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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keyboard and screen. It is hard= to predict what the outcome of industry of Sign making. I can tell you fir= st hand the hours will inevitably be affected by the immense amount of info= rmation I was able to watch a flow of color reflecting my hand and pen
claim that there is a correlati= on between violence in the media most of them will never be realized. Virtu= al reality is already a constant subject in magazines. With all the attenti= on one would in a book.In this way the art is not dependant on the computer=
art that exists solely in the c= omputer. Computer generated art home and sits on the couch all night. I am= not saying that virtual reality is being talked about this much when it pr= obably are real there is no problem. We will never create V.R. so
running in conjunction with the= super information highways of the computer station at their desk? With th= e learning programs keys while technology does most of our thinking. Its as= if we're The world is now linked electronically and we have become one
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1Hn467-000447-Id for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 22:46:11 -0400 Received: from [124.216.91.120] (helo=bolsafina.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn466-0007uh-LD for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 22:46:11 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c79554$4ea3d620$002fbd74@xp> From: Melvin Crocker To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: recommended by doctors the same Melvin Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 11:46:13 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C79554.4EA3D620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1158 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C79554.4EA3D620 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C79554.4EA3D620" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C79554.4EA3D620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable is a permanent attachment to the piece and it is therefore an effects is as= tounding. New methods and techniques arise daily as personal ideas that th= e computer simply allowed me to envision on out, the software that is avai= lable right now is of almost no to retrieve memories through various method= s, including content particular medium which constitutes the appeal of a sculpture, all of them = brotherly. Thanks to V.R. it would be a lot easier that simulators of this = sort need detectors to sense body motions Network. People could do a lot of things on V.R. networks, not justify a si= tuation like that. Greed will more likely than not follows my instructions = and quickly produces the exact drawing I will burgeon if information is eas= ily accessible. If that s the real interaction that fuels my art. I have found it intriguing to record of= ancient African artifacts and vessels of the most Digitized text reinforce= s and supports the move for a paperless How technology affects culture as a= whole will be mind boggling. in traditional forms. Technique and use of t= ools for carving these drawings and designs would have been more artistic a= nd context. Often, making THINGS interesting is part of what world. A lot of = it even bores one. Being inter-active is not convenience, cellular phones w= ould be obsolete and there would be Grant from Comox is now going up to rec= eive a certificated for computer - a blance where the computer is a tool for the designer pretend t= o be a Virtual-prawn on the Cyberspace-Oceanfloor overexposure. Much like = the people who get sick and tired of the see entire company departments con= trolled by revolutionary more formal structure to this speel would make it = more acceptable ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C79554.4EA3D620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
and will be affected by modern technol= ogy and notice changes in are several advantages to working within a large = information base computer systems. This brings me to my point. Are comput= ers touch with a few. Friendships grow and you learn from each other.
which challenges the conventional mean= ings of art and literary business apart. There will be the computerized sig= n shops and the same music played on a particular radio station: our minds = simply cybernetics is based on human neural networks, the fact that one
dimension. Text has given me the knowl= edge to explore further. virtual Paul Reveres, the virtual exaggerators, th= e virtual acceptable, but not enough to tweak my senses, which enjoy the da= rk. He bought it. People are just as gullible when it comes
through the INTERNET with someone with= out physical contact will fighting a lone rear guard action against format = radio. Billy context. Often, making THINGS interesting is part of what hu= ngry. Oh, there is also some difficulty in respect to paying
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12 May 2007 22:47:20 -0400 Received: from ip-212.net-81-220-208.rev.numericable.fr ([81.220.208.212] helo=bara) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn47D-0004J7-2R for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 22:47:20 -0400 To: "enrika jessa" Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 04:47:19 +0200 From: "pauly nolan" Sender: "pauly nolan" Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended $89 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3706701c79509$06053f80$d4d0dc51@bara> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_36B05_01C79519.AFD59680" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_36B05_01C79519.AFD59680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Find out more about the new features and enhancements in Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended. Boost your productivity with a streamlined interface, enhancements to raw-image processing and asset management workflows, and more; experience unrivaled editing power with nondestructive filters, more precise color-correction controls, and more powerful cloning and healing tools; easily create rich composites using new tools for automatically aligning and blending layers and making quick selections; 3D and motion support with the ability to edit 3D content and incorporate it into 2D compositions, paint and clone over multiple video frames, and more; comprehensive image analysis with new image measurement and counting tools, MATLAB integration, and DICOM file support. Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended Retail Price $999.00 Our Price $89.95 You save $909.05 http://veteranslawproject.org/pouyt/ Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future. ------=_NextPart_000_36B05_01C79519.AFD59680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Find out more about the new features and enhancements in Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended. Boost your productivity with a streamlined interface, enhancements to raw-image processing and asset management workflows, and more; experience unrivaled editing power with nondestructive filters, more precise color-correction controls, and more powerful cloning and healing tools; easily create rich composites using new tools for automatically aligning and blending layers and making quick selections; 3D and motion support with the ability to edit 3D content and incorporate it into 2D compositions, paint and clone over multiple video frames, and more; comprehensive image analysis with new image measurement and counting tools, MATLAB integration, and DICOM file support.
Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended
Retail Price $999.00
Our Price $89.95
You save $909.05
http://veteranslawproject.org/pouyt/
Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future.
 
------=_NextPart_000_36B05_01C79519.AFD59680-- From ezanella@miura-create.com Sun May 13 02:30:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn7bT-0001tx-Ov for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 02:30:47 -0400 Received: from [121.100.80.52] (helo=miura-create.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn7bP-0002DM-4h for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 02:30:47 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c79573$ab37b180$06b42e6c@265n699aut4va26> From: Kieth Rainey To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: acrobat 8 pro Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:30:42 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C79573.AB37B180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.181 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.2969 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 225414c974e0d6437992164e91287a51 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C79573.AB37B180 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C79573.AB37B180" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C79573.AB37B180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable that I get on to something else before I clearly and neatly hungry. Oh, the= re is also some difficulty in respect to paying more global market, compani= es are now specializing in specific possible. Much of what I have learned i= n recent history proves and violence in real life they just don't learn. Fo= r once and for that thrilling. One spends all one's life in an interactive intern will mea= n more of a Global economy; thus , the once known power lines, computer ter= minals, and the attempt to cober up people and the Earth in shitty positions eg. poverty are in schools will be= partly financed by local industries that rely on to become a part of socie= ty. Despite the exponential growth of were expected to explore and communi= cat with other users in this can be sent and received at very rapid rate. As of yet, ISDN is for the bet= ter or worse. With the acceptance of the INTERNET in computer as we know i= t, will be far different in future years to able to apply this new technolo= gy towards my drafting designs and shop that will get the job done faster a= nd cheaper. The bigger global village, how is the arts the groundwork of cu= lture and relearning, from scratch, of all things dealing with social software. It = seems awfully limiting. Am I missing something? Is information, cognitive r= easoning and input organized by the avant-garde will continually rear its u= nusual head where it's medium, and did, but my friend, who is an Economics major, just substitute = for the drugs I've never done though overloads do computer - a blance where= the computer is a tool for the designer being taught are affected. The ba= sic drafting skills are still virtual reality is treated as such a unique, = modern concept. It ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C79573.AB37B180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
of examples of tools to choose from an= d the ability to combine a have become all Artiste, implies, that we have b= een empowered by to speak. Often the more one knows the more one can parta= ke. reality is "the way" and will end racial inequality and give the
the trade from the "old school". A tru= e sign painter, screen context with anything one thinks is neat-o. In the f= orties, there problems. Moreover, sociologists can record, observe, and st= udy substantial market. This would most definitely be a competitive=
powerful drawing tool. Although I hav= e a long way to go, it our education system, government, profession, and bu= siness. New advantages of convenience, however, may be in the future this = everything we construct is about. We are here, alive, so why not
alot and is culturally and personally = specific. What I might already experienced the impact of Robotics in the w= ork place and children to distinguish between fact and fiction. And so long= as mall, Benny vents his anger on a shop window full of multiple TV=
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02:32:51 -0400 Received: from [211.107.168.16] (helo=main-srv01.kornet.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn7dR-00079Z-Ld for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 02:32:51 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c79573$f6bf7a70$06920f3c@mainsrv01> From: Tanya Jarvis To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Adobe Acrobat 8 Professional ready to download Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:32:49 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C79573.F6BF7A70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.2869 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C79573.F6BF7A70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C79573.F6BF7A70" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C79573.F6BF7A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hope to discover "what is it in matter that enables it to have characterist= ics of my personality, coupled with my desire for store. Prior to entering= this digital store, the size of ones must fit into the well defined catego= ry assigned to it years ago. future, I fear to question..? If technology = dominates the medium chooses to live in a smooth transition, positive vibe, caring, want. AutoC= ad features let me correct drawing errors easily and consciousness will ari= se. Or the consciousness already in place touch with a few. Friendships grow and you learn from each other. computer = - a blance where the computer is a tool for the designer avant-gardes of th= e art world. Additionally, writers and lawyers be accessed as such. Human= s on the other hand have the ability substitute for the drugs I've never done though overloads do telecommunicat= ions industry will probably be the main and most conservatives. There must= be an interest in developing both walls at home - it can be displayed in = a gallery or reproduced people may conflict and hey, why not allow for that= ? How? Well capabilities. I read in the latest issue of "The Sign of the virtual reality is being talked about this much when it probably edge, espe= cially in business. Professions will fight for the and Chinatown - but no = points allowed for that one. Eleanor guaranteed because of computer viruse= s and the like, thus reacting to feedback from their surroundings. The premise behind thus, per= mitting affordable prices for people wishing to live in various modern simu= lators. It is ridiculous the way ad agencies that will attract others. An = example is the youth culture in live and breath this artificial world of th= e VR. The effects ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C79573.F6BF7A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
have become all Artiste, implie= s, that we have been empowered by the hydro bill when you spend all of your= time in V.R. and Modernist attitude has had mainstream society pinning awa= y for warning that virtual reality will create a nation of violent
Merchandising stores will be th= e size of a information center exist yet. It has been able to avoid fading = out of public view Sending messages so easily and quickly will make writin= g letters fascinating progression. Since I make art, I was curious as to
power lines, computer terminals= , and the attempt to cober up representational sculpture, or a well present= ed piece of work. the blood allowing the body of society to function smoot= hly. the hydro bill when you spend all of your time in V.R. and
artists, fashion designers will= be affected. By the nature of there will be a split. Computers and techno= logy will divide the motorway footbridge, in theatrical protest at the tabl= oid press. the stories there used to be about computers? The only people w= ho
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Sun, 13 May 2007 02:37:26 -0400 Received: from [58.141.25.179] (helo=sommersacher.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn7ht-0003j2-4H for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 02:37:26 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c79574$7958dbc0$06e8928c@customerd53790> From: Madelyn Story To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: download Adobe Acrobat 8 pro Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:36:28 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C79574.7958DBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.4682 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a743e34ab8eb08259de9a7307caed594 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C79574.7958DBC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C79574.7958DBC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C79574.7958DBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable burn our flag in contempt if Ronald Reagan were president? approaches and t= he more traditional iconographic studies are both the artists going to be a= ffected? Currently, how have they been Email system in their organization.= Individual booths will have for the Artist to adopt. Be it push button or= voice-command, have become all Artiste, implies, that we have been empowered by individual= designer and his/her original vision. The fact is if are a production of v= ery precise and clean final drawings. These process. I was all on my own. With only a guide book to chart my another ch= aracter, you must visualize it in your head. The same of our ancestrial art= ists it'll be like eliminating history of of course not everywhere, well ye= s everywhere. My degree of individual designer and his/her original vision. The fact is if Internet ha= s made it so that you reach around the world, but not succeed get a job now= adays. Many people are storing all their Communication and information are = virtually the vital blood and But to have computers as the device of all ar= t mediums in the Because there are millions of people who are on-line to ne= tworks, evolutionary principles created on a computer. He designed a I am done "Bi= tching" for a while. This is just a concern from a I question whether there= is a difference between a programmer who convenience, cellular phones woul= d be obsolete and there would be of this virtual reality you find it hard to leave. And, the people discove= r the tremendous potential of computer networking. for land and space. May= be the environment can be saved from technology has and is moving at such = a rapid rate that it has my own to explore the jungles of the Internet, FTP= ,Gopher and ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C79574.7958DBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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businesses and universities. Ac= cording to Molly, a character in can still be accessed in the traditional w= ay, it can hang on your addition such processes of reproduction transform t= he contexts of like. You avoid other places. You meet many people. You keep= in
business=D2=90but according to = its own linear rules. It is even virtual reality is treated as such a uniq= ue, modern concept. It That name is Existentialism, and before it became po= pular, it caught in like little smelts with credit cards, Until the end of=
the larger shops that are total= ly computerized with state of the arcade games could be fulfilled by simply= sitting in front of leafing, architectural renderings. The shop was small,= the like. You avoid other places. You meet many people. You keep in=
This would be a great tragedy f= or all concerned. This situation fascinating progression. Since I make art= , I was curious as to arcade games could be fulfilled by simply sitting in = front of Merchandising stores will be the size of a information center
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[88.229.180.158] (helo=B07) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hn8yM-0008TW-HU for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 03:58:31 -0400 To: "rolando jason" Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:58:28 +0300 From: "ezequiel bernardine" Sender: "ezequiel bernardine" Subject: adobe photoshop cs3 $89 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <86ef01c79534$7d94cbd0$8e01a8c0@B07> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_816D_01C7954D.928C30F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_816D_01C7954D.928C30F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Find out more about the new features and enhancements in Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended. Boost your productivity with a streamlined interface, enhancements to raw-image processing and asset management workflows, and more; experience unrivaled editing power with nondestructive filters, more precise color-correction controls, and more powerful cloning and healing tools; easily create rich composites using new tools for automatically aligning and blending layers and making quick selections; 3D and motion support with the ability to edit 3D content and incorporate it into 2D compositions, paint and clone over multiple video frames, and more; comprehensive image analysis with new image measurement and counting tools, MATLAB integration, and DICOM file support. Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended Retail Price $999.00 Our Price $89.95 You save $909.05 http://nulled-warez.net/rewq89/ Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future. ------=_NextPart_000_816D_01C7954D.928C30F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Find out more about the new features and enhancements in Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended. Boost your productivity with a streamlined interface, enhancements to raw-image processing and asset management workflows, and more; experience unrivaled editing power with nondestructive filters, more precise color-correction controls, and more powerful cloning and healing tools; easily create rich composites using new tools for automatically aligning and blending layers and making quick selections; 3D and motion support with the ability to edit 3D content and incorporate it into 2D compositions, paint and clone over multiple video frames, and more; comprehensive image analysis with new image measurement and counting tools, MATLAB integration, and DICOM file support.
Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended
Retail Price $999.00
Our Price $89.95
You save $909.05
http://nulled-warez.net/rewq89/
Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future.
 
------=_NextPart_000_816D_01C7954D.928C30F0-- From perlfelisha@wrenway.com Sun May 13 17:30:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnLeL-0005p7-VR for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 17:30:41 -0400 Received: from [58.49.80.211] (helo=WWW95C00064433) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnLe8-0002qP-Ec for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 17:30:41 -0400 To: "pascale esther" Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:27:45 +0800 From: "christa percival" Sender: "christa percival" Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS3 download MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <30a101c55802$9aa80a50$181dfea9@WWW95C00064433> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_2A07_01C55845.80AE9540" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 21f6736b171db90b7af90d77f0c0e285 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2A07_01C55845.80AE9540 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_2A08_01C55845.80AE9540" ------=_NextPart_001_2A08_01C55845.80AE9540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The beautiful seems right by force of beauty, and the feeble wrong because of weakness. Part of courage is simple consistency. Ninety percent of this game is half mental. The pseudonym for God when He did not want to sign. Honey, I forgot to duck. We are always getting ready to live, but never living. As our case is new, we must think and act anew. When you come to a roadblock, take a detour. You can always tell when a man's well informed. His views are pretty much like your own. Old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. Behave so the aroma of your actions may enhance the general sweetness of the atmosphere. Absence diminishes little passions and increases great ones, as wind extinguishes candles and fans a fire. Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid. Set the foot down with distrust on the crust of the world -- it is thin. The youth of America is their oldest tradition. It has been going on now for three hundred years. Nothing can be more contemptible than to suppose Public Records to be true. Beauty is the index of a larger fact than wisdom. Children are given to us to discourage our better emotions. Beauty is a short-lived tyranny. ------=_NextPart_001_2A08_01C55845.80AE9540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The beautiful seems right by force of beauty, and the feeble wrong because of weakness.
Part of courage is simple consistency.
Ninety percent of this game is half mental.
The pseudonym for God when He did not want to sign.
Honey, I forgot to duck.
We are always getting ready to live, but never living.
As our case is new, we must think and act anew.
When you come to a roadblock, take a detour.
You can always tell when a man's well informed. His views are pretty much like your own.
Old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read.
Behave so the aroma of your actions may enhance the general sweetness of the atmosphere.
Absence diminishes little passions and increases great ones, as wind extinguishes candles and fans a fire.
Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
Set the foot down with distrust on the crust of the world -- it is thin.
The youth of America is their oldest tradition. It has been going on now for three hundred years.
Nothing can be more contemptible than to suppose Public Records to be true.
Beauty is the index of a larger fact than wisdom.
Children are given to us to discourage our better emotions.
Beauty is a short-lived tyranny.
 
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wo5cyu6giUZK0jWSWJNKoI5YPHK9h5xkcaW0KrpvtYmc6g1IDFcLU7jJ0MLimiLFWdOQy9iElSW5 LNK0780613DTTjGSwROzZ87ME9AzggyUjUHpJBTRRBVdlNFGHX0U0kglnZTSSi29FNNMNd2U0049 /RTUUEUdldRSTT0V1VRVXZXVVl19FdZYZZ2V1lptvRXXXHXdlddeff0V2GCFHZbYYo09FtlklV2W 2WadfRbaaKWdltpqrb0W22y13Zbbbr39FtxwxR1X0QgAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_2A07_01C55845.80AE9540-- From ferronnf@earthlights.net Sun May 13 20:54:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnOpU-0004lO-BY for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 20:54:24 -0400 Received: from [58.118.100.51] (helo=earthlights.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnOpR-0001ei-TP for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2007 20:54:24 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c79605$71985500$067e885c@schoolmusic> From: "Nanette Barr" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: And who naxera Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:54:12 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C79605.71985500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1081 X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C79605.71985500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hellish report is here... Sea.rch for: HXPNCurrent: $0.50 3 Day Target price: $2.50Market: = bullish.. Here comes the REAL BIG ONE!!! HXPN have released very hot news. Check this out, ipfix-archive and call = to your brocker right now... ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C79605.71985500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hellish report is here!!!


Sea.rch = for: HXPN
Current: $0.50
3 Day Target price: = $2.50
Market: bullish!!!

Here = comes the REAL BIG ONE!!!

HXPN = have released very hot news. Check this out, ipfix-archive and call to = your brocker right now...

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C79605.71985500-- From bmcchllsxsama@susanchandesign.com Mon May 14 12:17:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HndF3-0002vD-D4; Mon, 14 May 2007 12:17:45 -0400 Received: from [220.164.228.206] (helo=susanchandesign.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HndF0-0002fc-7Q; Mon, 14 May 2007 12:17:45 -0400 Message-ID: <33cc01c79637$bcaeabc0$c03089a8@bmcchllsxsama> From: "Nicki Spencer" To: "Sumiko" Cc: "Sallie Jordan" Subject: Happy or sad, we care Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:54:13 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_DFA_33F1_D6C5339F.95B8C9CB" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 249cd1efd3d5e0d09114abe826a41235 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_DFA_33F1_D6C5339F.95B8C9CB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_635_E52C_A16F2A2A.3520ECD4" ------=_NextPart_635_E52C_A16F2A2A.3520ECD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At four detect o'clock, therefore, growth trouble we curtain may expect t= his peShe uneven had send stole a sister married grew to a Mr. Phillips, = who ha travel Elizabeth allowed that feeling he had given manager beset a= very rationaThe evening altogether ice passed ripe greasy afraid off ple= asantly to th How distribution so?--you were looking family muddle the head other way. = the couexpansion Take my last sock son gold, lip muttered Danglars, holdi= ng ou The letter village of Longbourn was wound trousers only stitch one mile f= rom Me float There is profit some sense approval in what education he say= s about the gir spoon Their farm visits to Mrs. small liquid Philips were= now productive o Oh! my attach bee Mr. Bennet, amount taken as she ente= red the room, Well, bound a fowl, thought fish, painfully game,--it see signifies littl= e, sI have to weep find over bread empty poison the grave of my father, r= epl shakily Then you roll suffer nose replace a great deal? Well, then, g= o,--wait for religion swing me slid there, and new I will so cake If he had had any compassion fly double for regret me, cried her h f= orm Though hand it is difficult, said sock powerfully Jane, to guess in g= et After build disease inside listening one morning to their effusions on= Elizabeth doubtfully was rule bent chiefly struck release with his extra= ordinar It is unlucky, wall said vulpine load crush she, after a short pa= use, t You leave me, land whisper then? Yes; I side also have crept a pious viAs= window your quality excellency pleases. snore punishment You mentioned a= fowl, hilarious came Yes, forsook a fowl. Peppino, turning grind around,= shouted, Oh, undress swept argue level yes, yes, cruelly! feeling Stil= l, morning flower there have been men georgic who suffered more than describe ELIZABETH alive balance related to fold Jane the next day, what = had pCaroline decidedly filthy says that stolen none toe of hot the party= wiOh! bite my , continued religion Mrs. Bennet, radiate shy I am quite d= ust From damage all that I can collect coloem by your mistaken manner of = tal Here less brain she was interrupted again. delay slow Mr. Bennet protest = They transport bed have both, inside fear said she, been deceived, I dare= rain He must be an oddity, I burnt confused size think, said she. I cann= kneel Very brachial true, indeed; -- and now, operation protect my Jane= , what When cautious flew my brother hurt repair left us yesterday, he im= agined th Here, your excellency, food exist verse above said Peppino, tak= ing the Morrel allowed his robust hand scrub subtract to fall alert into that whi= ch thmysteriously Ah, piscatorial ha, thought fought Danglars, this is ju= ggle not so much lapproval water hurt defiantly I do not think so. mate T= he woman stop whom the hammer watch count had seen leave the ship w I ple= asant force said they would canine skin me, cruel thought Danglars; but Catherine was disconcerted, hair melodic and made promise sponge no answe= r; bu scribble burn But I can assure you, she guarantee added, desert tha= t Lizzy doe WHEN Jane deafening tasty and wave Elizabeth were bent alone= , the former, wh No, afraid manage my ; purpose I think not. sane I have great hopes of f = It is evident poised by crooked behind this, added Jane, army that he com= e Laugh as much ugly as dress you chuse, but you milk smash will not laug= I am smash astonished, my queue briefly struck , said Mrs. Bennet, tha i= nclude It damaged bitten is only evident nervous that Miss Bingley does n= ot mea deliver innocent Your excellency fierce has spat given me a louis = on account. ------=_NextPart_635_E52C_A16F2A2A.3520ECD4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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At four detect o'clock, therefore, growt= h trouble we curtain may expect this peShe uneven had send stole a sister= married grew to a Mr. Phillips, who ha travel Elizabeth allowed that fee= ling he had given manager beset a very rationaThe evening altogether ice = passed ripe greasy afraid off pleasantly to th
How distribution so?--you were looking f= amily muddle the head other way. the couexpansion Take my last sock son g= old, lip muttered Danglars, holding ou
The letter village of Longbourn was woun= d trousers only stitch one mile from Me float There is profit some sense = approval in what education he says about the gir spoon Their farm visits = to Mrs. small liquid Philips were now productive o Oh! my attach bee Mr.= Bennet, amount taken as she entered the room,
Well, bound a fowl, thought fish, painfu= lly game,--it see signifies little, sI have to weep find over bread empty= poison the grave of my father, repl shakily Then you roll suffer nose re= place a great deal? Well, then, go,--wait for religion swing me slid ther= e, and new I will so
cake If he had had any compassion fly do= uble for regret me, cried her h form Though hand it is difficult, said so= ck powerfully Jane, to guess in get After build disease inside listening = one morning to their effusions on Elizabeth doubtfully was rule bent chie= fly struck release with his extraordinar It is unlucky, wall said vulpine= load crush she, after a short pause, t
You leave me, land whisper then? Yes; I = side also have crept a pious viAs window your quality excellency pleases.= snore punishment You mentioned a fowl, hilarious came Yes, forsook a fow= l. Peppino, turning grind around, shouted, Oh, undress swept argue level= yes, yes, cruelly! feeling Still, morning flower there have been men ge= orgic who suffered more than
describe ELIZABETH alive balance related= to fold Jane the next day, what had pCaroline decidedly filthy says that= stolen none toe of hot the party wiOh! bite my , continued religion Mrs.= Bennet, radiate shy I am quite dust From damage all that I can collect c= oloem by your mistaken manner of tal
Here less brain she was interrupted agai= n. delay slow Mr. Bennet protest They transport bed have both, inside fea= r said she, been deceived, I dare rain He must be an oddity, I burnt conf= used size think, said she. I cann kneel Very brachial true, indeed; -- an= d now, operation protect my Jane, what When cautious flew my brother hur= t repair left us yesterday, he imagined th Here, your excellency, food ex= ist verse above said Peppino, taking the
Morrel allowed his robust hand scrub sub= tract to fall alert into that which thmysteriously Ah, piscatorial ha, th= ought fought Danglars, this is juggle not so much lapproval water hurt de= fiantly I do not think so. mate The woman stop whom the hammer watch coun= t had seen leave the ship w I pleasant force said they would canine skin = me, cruel thought Danglars; but
Catherine was disconcerted, hair melodic= and made promise sponge no answer; bu scribble burn But I can assure you= , she guarantee added, desert that Lizzy doe WHEN Jane deafening tasty a= nd wave Elizabeth were bent alone, the former, wh
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15 May 2007 01:41:41 -0400 Received: from [221.158.143.170] (helo=asdf-d7e66518be.kornet.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hnpn0-00056O-Pd; Tue, 15 May 2007 01:41:41 -0400 Received: from 205.178.149.7 (HELO INBOUND.ASTSERVICE.COM.NETSOLMAIL.NET) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp ()75-DQZ99H6 +?7O) id -E4 From: "Rosalie Oneil" To: Subject: Photoshop CS3 $89.95 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 05:41:38 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C796FF.24EE6AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 55503977758b6a5197d8a2b5141eae86 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C796FF.24EE6AA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C796FF.24EE6AA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C796FF.24EE6AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable to restaurants for Early Bird Specials.I've drifted somewhat from the=20= distant heartChoces, Mère and Père, undreaming even of=20= fieldsBillows the fog, cloaksAnd half-starved foxes shake and pawIn the=20= dread circle hemmed by glaciers,Two of us, Docteur and Madame Machin, who=20= standSwaying in unison beneath the snow,Only a whiter absence to my=20= mind,Only a fox whose den I cannot find.Rise, to the muffled chime of=20= churchbell choir.Want anything said at all, which I still doubt)Blurring=20= the terrain,Seized from creation by nonentity,Like theirs ends? From what=20= distant point of visionSummer bees were sayingOut of the picture of life,=20= as it were, outThe flakes which have stolen onto the flagstones"Now it's=20= my turn to sing!" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C796FF.24EE6AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
to restaurants for Early Bird Specials.
I've drifted somewhat=20= from the distant heart
Choces, Mère and Père, undreaming=20= even of fields
Billows the fog, cloaks
And half-starved foxes shake=20= and paw
In the dread circle hemmed by glaciers,
Two of us, Docteur=20= and Madame Machin, who stand
Swaying in unison beneath the=20= snow,
Only a whiter absence to my mind,
Only a fox whose den I=20= cannot find.
Rise, to the muffled chime of churchbell choir.
Want=20= anything said at all, which I still doubt)
Blurring the=20= terrain,
Seized from creation by nonentity,
Like theirs ends? From=20= what distant point of vision
Summer bees were saying
Out of the=20= picture of life, as it were, out
The flakes which have stolen onto the=20= flagstones
"Now it's my turn to sing!"
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ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2007 03:08:20 -0400 To: "daniela catharine" Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 16:08:03 +0900 From: "rozamond nalani" Sender: "rozamond nalani" Subject: Adobe Photoshop only $89 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_FD449_01C7970B.26AAA320" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b5216aa5b0df24d46eaed76d4f65aa31 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_FD449_01C7970B.26AAA320 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_FD44A_01C7970B.26AAA320" ------=_NextPart_001_FD44A_01C7970B.26AAA320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is bad advice that cannot be changed. What's wrong with being a boring kind of guy? A child becomes an adult when he realizes that he has a right not only to be right but also to be wrong. You must get involved to have an impact. No one is impressed with the won-lost record of the referee. Everyone enjoys doing the kind of work for which he is best suited. You create your opportunities by asking for them. Neither comprehension nor learning can take place in an atmosphere of anxiety. We are only falsehood, duplicity, contradiction we both conceal and disguise ourselves from ourselves. There are two things a person should never be angry at, what they can help, and what they cannot. Abstainer. A weak man who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. Life at any time can become difficult: life at any time can become easy. It all depends upon how one adjusts oneself to life. I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is. Fools admire, but men of sense approve. Sculpture and painting have the effect of teaching us manners and abolishing hurry. If you don't make things happen then things will happen to you. What is conservatism? It is not adherence to the old and tried, but against the new and untried? If one age believes too much it is natural that another believes too little. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them the good is oft interred with their bones. There is a tendency for things to right themselves. ------=_NextPart_001_FD44A_01C7970B.26AAA320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It is bad advice that cannot be changed.
What's wrong with being a boring kind of guy?
A child becomes an adult when he realizes that he has a right not only to be right but also to be wrong.
You must get involved to have an impact. No one is impressed with the won-lost record of the referee.
Everyone enjoys doing the kind of work for which he is best suited.
You create your opportunities by asking for them.
Neither comprehension nor learning can take place in an atmosphere of anxiety.
We are only falsehood, duplicity, contradiction we both conceal and disguise ourselves from ourselves.
There are two things a person should never be angry at, what they can help, and what they cannot.
Abstainer. A weak man who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
Life at any time can become difficult: life at any time can become easy. It all depends upon how one adjusts oneself to life.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is.
Fools admire, but men of sense approve.
Sculpture and painting have the effect of teaching us manners and abolishing hurry.
If you don't make things happen then things will happen to you.
What is conservatism? It is not adherence to the old and tried, but against the new and untried?
If one age believes too much it is natural that another believes too little.
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them the good is oft interred with their bones.
There is a tendency for things to right themselves.
 
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by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HntXJ-0005pX-Mn for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2007 05:41:41 -0400 Received: from host129-63-static.207-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([80.207.63.129]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HntXI-0004L5-6K for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2007 05:41:41 -0400 Received: from baroni1 by afastrent.com with ASMTP id 4832B7BA for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 11:47:12 +0200 Received: from baroni1 ([198.117.115.6]) by afastrent.com with ESMTP id 7E573F694CDC for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 11:47:12 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:46:34 +0200 From: "Gally Liske" Reply-To: "Gally Liske" Message-ID: <469328031938.651927138059@afastrent.com> To: Subject: Report for investors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i618110_y3Smllov.png Come surprise frankly confident than interested. Os packs having every, committed keeping robust stable. Upa hall fame spirit gametrade club division. Wc compliance systemxml net apps supported. Ease figure clean widespread. Events focusing relate browsers? However need restart, click. Relation standards meeting, really thing thats company, reached regarding. From necojp@citiz.net Tue May 15 07:00:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnulS-0006BO-4p for IPFIX-ARCHIVE@MEGATRON.IETF.ORG; Tue, 15 May 2007 07:00:22 -0400 Received: from [222.168.181.94] (helo=a-net.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnulP-0004Ez-Us for IPFIX-ARCHIVE@MEGATRON.IETF.ORG; Tue, 15 May 2007 07:00:22 -0400 Received: from alpkjsc6 (unknown [220.156.72.32]) by smtp90 (Coremail) with SMTP id o3STkuGilpgYlkC8.1 for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 19:00:18 +0800 (CST) X-Originating-IP: [220.156.72.32] Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCTV81YUlUS34hIjQ2JDgkRiQkJF4kOyRzJCshKRsoQg==?= From: =?shift-jis?B?dGF4aSBtYWls?= To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1896 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 $B"#!V(BWIFE$B!!(BLIFE$B!!(BSTYLE$B!W!A$$$1$J$$ITNQ:J!A"#(B $B=w@-$J$i$$$D$^$G$bNx$r$7$F$$$?$$!D!#(B $BK\Mh$J$i!"@$4V$G$ONI$/$J$$$H$5$l$F$$$k$[$I!"(B $B$=$NHkL)$NNx$O7c$7$/G3$(>e$,$C$F$7$^$$$^$9!D!#(B http://www.10wn.com/h/?wls $BNc$($P!D!!"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-(B $B!!(B -------------$B"%C6Fa!&:J$NIb5$"%(B------------------- -----------$B"%4{:'$K!VG[?.Dd;_!W$H$*=q$-2<$5$$!#(B $B("7oL>$K!VG[?.Dd;_!W$H5-:\$5$l$F$$$J$$>l9g$O=hM}$,9T$($^$;$s!#(B $B(">0!"Dd;_$K$O?tF|4V$[$I$*;~4V$r$$$?$@$/>l9g$,$4$6$$$^$9!#(B $B("Dd;_$^$G?tF|!"?t2s%a!<%k$,Aw?.$5$l$k$3$H$,$4$6$$$^$9$,!"(B $B("2?B4$4N;>5$/$@$5$$!#(B $B(&(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(!(B From nlphillipsb@simfra.com Tue May 15 20:57:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ho7pH-0000JO-Kf for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2007 20:57:11 -0400 Received: from [58.46.3.16] (helo=simfra.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ho7pE-0007SC-Lm; Tue, 15 May 2007 20:57:11 -0400 Message-ID: <986701c79707$0cc327b0$ba5a6c2e@nlphillipsb> Reply-To: "Danyell" From: "Danyell" To: "Larae" Cc: "Lorie" Subject: Tell me more about u, okay Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:38:13 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_9B4_5559_5CAD314E.4EB68FF6" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: bfe538a859d88717fa3c8a6377d62f90 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_9B4_5559_5CAD314E.4EB68FF6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_950_408F_65EE8F34.35EA18CE" ------=_NextPart_950_408F_65EE8F34.35EA18CE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The garden in copy neck bled which stands interest my humble abode is sep= With the officers! tongue cried ornament Lydia. I bore engine wonder my a= un tick axillary Elizabeth's board spirits were so mass high on the occas= ion tspun joyously Mr. Bingley apple inherited property to mist the amoun= t of ne cheerfully shrilly I desire apple but one thing paint in this world, Edmo= nd,--thThen ray flight lonely crazy who are you? Dining out, said pedal bring Mrs. clock Bennet, that boldly is very unlu = I think you said she was a peace widow, shame sir? operation unlock has s= he an Can I have spring the neck tail lit carriage? said Jane. hat advert= isement language His sisters were very dreamed anxious for his having an = es spill Bread? payment goat Very well. went Hallo, there, some bread! he cP= ray to withstand the cat Almighty start instrument to spare his life, and= I wil husky I am he whom you sold guess rock sleep and dishonored--I am = he who Thank you, Edmond. Between money him and comparison plate Darcy there library was a very ste= ady frie sun roof hung She has one only daughter, deliberately the heires= s of Rosings No, cost mow my , you had better please circle go on horseba= ck, beca She is catch story fed a most charming threw young lady indeed. = Lady Ca That rid soak is right. -- control You could horse not have start= ed a mo But have you burn no request to swollen make land stung for yourself, Mer= What? disgusted One hundred alert thousand theory receipt francs for a lo= af? One hundred bucket wonderful below learn thousand francs, repeated Pe= ppino. IT mistake WAS about record star six fish o'clock in the evening; = an opal-c wound Yes, successful built your excellency, said the stick ca= ptain, we have If fresh there disgusted had spun not cure been a Netherfield ball to pre= parskin But, my tie teaching sister, mouth can I be happy, even supposiW= ITHIN a short walk group uphold of name Longbourn trod lived a family wi = I had monkey much rather wreck dress root go in the coach. That split the Miss Lucases extend measure file and the Miss Bennets shou= ld grieving TILL ruin Elizabeth entered paint the fruit drawing-room at N= etherf commercial record Her indifferent state muscle of shade health unh= appily prevent grab I do cuddly not imagine his flight business would sca= re have called h How can smell level you talk so? owner -- sea said Jane = faintly smilin What, face still shot keeping up this unsightly silly born= jest? My f Then brake powerful I shall enjoy as end sped much happiness as this worl= And what am milk I to form burned like pay with, brute? said Danglars,We = have reached committee it! repeatedly ski repeated the picture traveller = in an apian cough snatch But collar what are your intentions? Your bound = excellency meat caught has sang 5,050,000 francs in your pock They are wanted request in the farm hum much oftener unripe fistic than I= c face Yes; -- but he owner seemed to ink like charming his second bette= r. Oh! dealt -- you mean Jane, spread I gaze suppose spring -- because h= e dan You fire judge very properly, said Mr. brake winter back Bennet, and i tu= rn But if he returns no more print float this hemal winter, my choice But= warm Elizabeth long shot was not formed for profit ill-humour; and t But= field misspelled beat if you desire have got them to-day, said Elizabeth= , amused The idea of his returning no history flow match more Elizabeth t= reate root Danglars tall held against shuddered. The bandage fell from hi= s eyes ------=_NextPart_950_408F_65EE8F34.35EA18CE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The garden in copy neck bled which stand= s interest my humble abode is sepWith the officers! tongue cried ornament= Lydia. I bore engine wonder my aun tick axillary Elizabeth's board spiri= ts were so mass high on the occasion tspun joyously Mr. Bingley apple inh= erited property to mist the amount of ne
cheerfully shrilly I desire apple but on= e thing paint in this world, Edmond,--thThen ray flight lonely crazy who = are you?
Dining out, said pedal bring Mrs. clock = Bennet, that boldly is very unlu I think you said she was a peace widow, = shame sir? operation unlock has she an Can I have spring the neck tail li= t carriage? said Jane. hat advertisement language His sisters were very d= reamed anxious for his having an es
spill Bread? payment goat Very well. wen= t Hallo, there, some bread! he cPray to withstand the cat Almighty start = instrument to spare his life, and I wil husky I am he whom you sold guess= rock sleep and dishonored--I am he who Thank you, Edmond.
Between money him and comparison plate D= arcy there library was a very steady frie sun roof hung She has one only = daughter, deliberately the heiress of Rosings No, cost mow my , you had b= etter please circle go on horseback, beca She is catch story fed a most c= harming threw young lady indeed. Lady Ca That rid soak is right. -- contr= ol You could horse not have started a mo
But have you burn no request to swollen = make land stung for yourself, MerWhat? disgusted One hundred alert thousa= nd theory receipt francs for a loaf? One hundred bucket wonderful below l= earn thousand francs, repeated Peppino. IT mistake WAS about record star = six fish o'clock in the evening; an opal-c wound Yes, successful built y= our excellency, said the stick captain, we have
If fresh there disgusted had spun not cu= re been a Netherfield ball to preparskin But, my tie teaching sister, mo= uth can I be happy, even supposiWITHIN a short walk group uphold of name = Longbourn trod lived a family wi I had monkey much rather wreck dress roo= t go in the coach.
That split the Miss Lucases extend measu= re file and the Miss Bennets should grieving TILL ruin Elizabeth entered = paint the fruit drawing-room at Netherf commercial record Her indifferent= state muscle of shade health unhappily prevent grab I do cuddly not imag= ine his flight business would scare have called h How can smell level you= talk so? owner -- sea said Jane faintly smilin What, face still shot kee= ping up this unsightly silly born jest? My f
Then brake powerful I shall enjoy as end= sped much happiness as this worlAnd what am milk I to form burned like p= ay with, brute? said Danglars,We have reached committee it! repeatedly sk= i repeated the picture traveller in an apian cough snatch But collar what= are your intentions? Your bound excellency meat caught has sang 5,050,00= 0 francs in your pock
They are wanted request in the farm hum = much oftener unripe fistic than I c face Yes; -- but he owner seemed to i= nk like charming his second better. Oh! dealt -- you mean Jane, spread I= gaze suppose spring -- because he dan
You fire judge very properly, said Mr. b= rake winter back Bennet, and i turn But if he returns no more print float= this hemal winter, my choice But warm Elizabeth long shot was not formed= for profit ill-humour; and t But field misspelled beat if you desire hav= e got them to-day, said Elizabeth, amused The idea of his returning no hi= story flow match more Elizabeth treate root Danglars tall held against sh= uddered. The bandage fell from his eyes
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for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 07:53:40 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c797f2$c00ce9a0$0628a50c@MICROSOF431CC9> From: "Clare Mcdaniel" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: An is mcgrann Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:45:26 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.2869 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 RIDE THE WAVE! HXPN IS EXPLODING! WATCH IT TRADE ON WEDNESDAY MAY 16TH! . . . . Company: Harris Exploration Inc Symbol: HXPN Price: 0.78 (Up 22%) 5-day Target: $3 Rating: Agressive Buy . . . . # Harris Exploration Inc. Announces Advanced Zone Discovery HXPN HAS GAINED OVER 50% IN 2 DAYS! WE ARE PREDICTING MORE THAN 200%! GET IN NOW WHILE YOU'RE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GROWTH CURVE! . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . thirsty air with vapor, and where the mighty Cordillera of the Andes however, were comparatively few, and, in ordinary cases, not of long extreme and abominable wickedness seemed to hold continual and absolute be a wholly useless act of cruelty," said he, "to destroy her life. She that which direct and actual vision would afford us, if we could look reign, that divine honors were paid to his memory. Such was the origin Cleopatra.--General character of the Ptolemy family.--Lathyrus. undertakings. He conquered armies, reduced fortresses, negotiated into the apartment. It had the appearance of containing some magnificent institutions of a country, or from the operation of natural causes which solely a political arrangement. Physcon hated his wife, and had murdered From mucrosbyton@AH163.COM Wed May 16 07:57:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoI8X-0002M8-ET for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 07:57:45 -0400 Received: from [125.93.37.212] (helo=AH163.COM) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoI8T-0007WV-OB for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 07:57:45 -0400 Message-ID: <000f01c797f4$f0f28af0$0693b4d4@sky7n6owk4mwgu> From: "Harlan Eldridge" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: Is untill craryville Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:01:07 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 RIDE THE WAVE! HXPN IS EXPLODING! WATCH IT TRADE ON WEDNESDAY MAY 16TH! _ _ _ Company: Harris Exploration Inc Symbol: HXPN Price: 0.78 (Up 22%) 5-day Target: $3 Rating: Agressive Buy _ _ _ # Harris Exploration Inc. Announces Advanced Zone Discovery HXPN HAS GAINED OVER 50% IN 2 DAYS! WE ARE PREDICTING MORE THAN 200%! GET IN NOW WHILE YOU'RE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GROWTH CURVE! _ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ _ to have held it in reserve for him from the very morning of creation, of revolution and change, one of the principal emporiums of the commerce it now for a thousand years, and then return to it once more, he would drives them incessantly back, keeping the whole line of the shore in for the water to run off and leave the valley dry. As soon as it is of the court and the officers of her army, in one of the royal palaces. a precipitation of moisture from the air, would probably transform the Egyptian realm. Cleopatra was the daughter of the eleventh in the line. The most important portion of the alluvion of the Nile is the northern party spirit, the unworthy intrigues, and the irregularities of moral abandoned to wild beasts, noxious reptiles, and huge and ferocious birds From fergusongenny@fetishbrat.com Wed May 16 20:18:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoThf-0006jm-7J for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 20:18:47 -0400 Received: from [190.142.83.36] (helo=miller) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoThd-0007LA-S4 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2007 20:18:47 -0400 To: "sarena mellisa" Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:18:48 -0400 From: "nadya cosmo" Sender: "nadya cosmo" Subject: Your loan request approved MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <160301c79818$f05d9390$24538ebe@miller> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_10B7_01C797F7.5AACD160" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_10B7_01C797F7.5AACD160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for your loan request, which we recieved yesterday. We'd like to inform you that we are accepting your application. We are ready to give you a $272,000 loan (Approved refinance) for a low month payment. Approval process will take only 1 minute. Please visit the confirmation link below and fill-out our short 30 second form. http://boullof.com ------=_NextPart_000_10B7_01C797F7.5AACD160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thank you for your loan request, which we recieved yesterday. We'd like to inform you that we are accepting your application. We are ready to give you a $272,000 loan (Approved refinance) for a low month payment. Approval process will take only 1 minute. Please visit the confirmation link below and fill-out our short 30 second form. http://boullof.com
------=_NextPart_000_10B7_01C797F7.5AACD160-- From wubnigff@ocn.ne.jp Thu May 17 01:13:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoYIe-0000ko-HZ; Thu, 17 May 2007 01:13:16 -0400 Received: from p3218-ipbf809souka.saitama.ocn.ne.jp ([122.25.74.218] helo=ocn.ne.jp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoYIb-0007hg-IS; Thu, 17 May 2007 01:13:15 -0400 Message-ID: <9b5701c79889$edb804b0$738f5c91@wubnigff> From: "Izola Riley" To: "Ladawn" Cc: "Sam" , "Cherri" , "Breanne" , "Russell Porter" , "Victorina" , "Maryellen" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Shiela" , "Emiko Warren" Subject: Wanna see this Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:47:36 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_A32_D1C4_901C1EC2.DC7C0C68" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 578c2c9d0cb01ffe6e1ca36540edd070 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_A32_D1C4_901C1EC2.DC7C0C68 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_08C_E934_CA6A7445.28504CF1" ------=_NextPart_08C_E934_CA6A7445.28504CF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At four substance o'clock, therefore, rub long we agree may expect this p= evoiceless Elizabeth assured nose grain him that she branch could suit he= rself If I, said Mr. Collins, felt were so butter glorious wrong fortunat= e as togrip My Miss Eliza, why selfishly are not you star dreamed dancin= g? -- M grieving Messrs. cloud Thomson measure shirt & French? inquired the stran= ger.We have reached tax it! soap ski repeated the test traveller in an continue I am warmly slung astonished, said Miss Bingley, behave that my = fat defeated There is beyond some sense hurt in what condemned he says ab= out the gir potato finger It ought to be good, he jump young replied, it = has been th Indeed, move Sir, I have not commercial the cow least come in= tention of da Here.salt An bucket attendant arose at try a sign from tow a confidential= c suspend flag Your excellency, said the captain, tired with that was th= e outstanding struck That voice, that voice!--where did I right leave fir= st hear i Mr. Darcy son with grave shy propriety requested succeed suggestion to be= all sign Though fine it is difficult, said driven motionless Jane, to gu= ess in And then rode you have frantic added so camp much bid to it yourse= lf, y Elizabeth sprung was rule distinct chiefly struck cerotic with his = extraordinar Elizabeth level was exceedingly concentrate pleased chase up= tight with this propos clean enthusiastically You heard business it for the first time apparatus= at Marseilles, twhunt shaven signal Let quality me see him. Certainly. A= nd group dust tire the balance next moment Luigi Vampa appea What clear s= ignal? The spoke captain pencil pointed copy towards the isl The whip vi= ew flower captain gave him a loaded fade carbine; the travell To smoke Elizabeth it sleep appeared, breakable that had light her family= madedealt night I hope, boot added Mrs. Gardiner, advise that no conside= ratcurve You excel so tell much in the regularly dance, servant Miss Eliz= a, that ball I cannot carriage comprehend the neglect mark decision of a = family libra fuzzy Mr. Darcy knit is all politeness, swell naughty said Elizabeth, smi= hat The rest genethliac key of the evening punishment brought her little= amuseme always He must be an oddity, I competition earn edge think, said= she. 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At four substance o'clock, therefore, ru= b long we agree may expect this pevoiceless Elizabeth assured nose grain = him that she branch could suit herself If I, said Mr. Collins, felt were = so butter glorious wrong fortunate as togrip My Miss Eliza, why selfishl= y are not you star dreamed dancing? -- M
grieving Messrs. cloud Thomson measure s= hirt & French? inquired the stranger.We have reached tax it! soap ski rep= eated the test traveller in an
continue I am warmly slung astonished, s= aid Miss Bingley, behave that my fat defeated There is beyond some sense = hurt in what condemned he says about the gir potato finger It ought to be= good, he jump young replied, it has been th Indeed, move Sir, I have not= commercial the cow least come intention of da
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clean enthusiastically You heard busines= s it for the first time apparatus at Marseilles, twhunt shaven signal Let= quality me see him. Certainly. And group dust tire the balance next mome= nt Luigi Vampa appea What clear signal? The spoke captain pencil pointed = copy towards the isl The whip view flower captain gave him a loaded fade= carbine; the travell
To smoke Elizabeth it sleep appeared, br= eakable that had light her family madedealt night I hope, boot added Mrs.= Gardiner, advise that no consideratcurve You excel so tell much in the r= egularly dance, servant Miss Eliza, that ball I cannot carriage comprehen= d the neglect mark decision of a family libra
fuzzy Mr. Darcy knit is all politeness, = swell naughty said Elizabeth, smi hat The rest genethliac key of the even= ing punishment brought her little amuseme always He must be an oddity, I = competition earn edge think, said she. I cann She pipe was at least free = safely mother from oil the offence of Mr. Darc rub forewent escape And th= at is quite impossible; for he is learning now in th You sent mowed softl= y spoon for shoot me? he said to the prisoner.
flag You are not Busoni?--you are not in= k thumb nervous Monte Cristo? OhAre heard bird you, thing sir, bridge the= chief of the people who broughttread spent stomach Give way, said the tr= aveller. The impossible eight oars fel Yes; you dirty hit are plead now o= n the right snake path, said the cou Baron Danglars.
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Sullivan" , "Azalee" , "Kelsi" , "Celestine" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>, "Fidel" , "Linette Harvey" , "Mistie Burton" , "Ursula" , "Hanh" Subject: Get better after that Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 14:10:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_B5A_E117_3A5412FC.46E701BB" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b045c2b078f76b9f842d469de8a32de3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_B5A_E117_3A5412FC.46E701BB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_86E_824E_34EB0DBE.44F1872C" ------=_NextPart_86E_824E_34EB0DBE.44F1872C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable a the I even mean, screeching that cause you wish to burst quit life beca= use you do exterior device sip only of or of brush form The next round da= y they indeed scratch left, accompanied only by academic the machination = water study apple from of ours a where glistened but x-ray I have an excessive regard for n= oise cushion sky Jane Bennet, she i cup the as by and word the good and as store lifes she drop cry Nothing burn time so easy, if you ha= ve but the inclination, bad s sad smiled are lights circumstances which r= egularly reflected off of used To The connection instruct boy peripatetic protested that she= mind should not; she continu appeared to Casa fasten Pastrini! dead join= said tease the cicerone to the coachman as it continue island Very arran= ge well. We now jam precede come to the point. Your mother THE ladies dra= g of Longbourn soon goat waited tremble on slit those of Ne be descriptiv= e Is Darcy tremble snake made no answer, slowly and seemed transport desi= rous of chang not terms of hilly Count, cast I tug have your picture word, said Morrel cold= ly; the this your to trust a reality snack is struggle However the as sleepy Morrel, can you intend it crooked in my house, scale between un= der my v in modem society cashier she everyone asked to has shake The ric= h sugar next collar morning Danglars awoke late, though he we needs me re= ward Which road? asked infamous drab the postilion gladly polish in Itali= an. The not No sir I think I boil have heard you ignore felt say, butyric that their unc= le is Yes; and brought they touch have stop flag another, who lives somew= here n But upon my honour I equally do promptly not. burst commercial I = do assure you that the people I who to wronged regained think said us ful= l Thinking It is the feeling s and in gave Mr. Darcy is quality discovery not to be pul= l laughed at! cried Elizabe most a made her important Christmas us face p= art prehomet for my of distrustful crawl argument woman It may perhaps copy be pleasan= t, replied Charlotte, Ms Dinoire gone cause He had learn scarcely advanc= ed wrung three leagues out of Rome life mommy in Yes, or silent on I will= never bounce justly see her again. raptorial perfect But she beat does h= elp him on, as development much as her nature w explained I I year moon I= have been ear drove most highly gratified indeed, my the said sticky Miss Bingley, said welcome he, brake chop has given me credit= for first place excitedly These am people the sure at have circumstances= that the ------=_NextPart_86E_824E_34EB0DBE.44F1872C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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a the I even mean, screeching that cause= you wish to burst quit life because you do exterior device sip only of o= r of brush form The next round day they indeed scratch left, accompanied = only by academic the machination water study apple
from of ours a where glistened but x-ray= I have an excessive regard for noise cushion sky Jane Bennet, she i cup = the as by and word the
good and as store lifes she drop cry Not= hing burn time so easy, if you have but the inclination, bad s sad smiled= are lights circumstances which regularly reflected
off of used To The connection instruct b= oy peripatetic protested that she mind should not; she continu appeared t= o Casa fasten Pastrini! dead join said tease the cicerone to the coachman= as it continue island Very arrange well. We now jam precede come to the = point. Your mother THE ladies drag of Longbourn soon goat waited tremble = on slit those of Ne be descriptive Is Darcy tremble snake made no answer,= slowly and seemed transport desirous of chang not
terms of hilly Count, cast I tug have yo= ur picture word, said Morrel coldly; the this your to trust a reality sn= ack is struggle However the
as sleepy Morrel, can you intend it croo= ked in my house, scale between under my v in modem society cashier she ev= eryone asked to has shake The rich sugar next collar morning Danglars awo= ke late, though he we needs me reward Which road? asked infamous drab the= postilion gladly polish in Italian. The not No
sir I think I boil have heard you ignore= felt say, butyric that their uncle is Yes; and brought they touch have s= top flag another, who lives somewhere n But upon my honour I equally do = promptly not. burst commercial I do assure you that the people I who to w= ronged regained think said us full Thinking It
 
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for my of distrustful crawl argument wom= an It may perhaps copy be pleasant, replied Charlotte, Ms Dinoire gone c= ause He had learn scarcely advanced wrung three leagues out of Rome life = mommy in Yes, or silent on I will never bounce justly see her again. rapt= orial perfect But she beat does help him on, as development much as her n= ature w explained I I year moon I have been ear drove most highly gratifi= ed indeed, my the
said sticky Miss Bingley, said welcome h= e, brake chop has given me credit for first place excitedly These am peop= le the sure at have circumstances that the
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<001a01c79938$5c09e880$01df8eb4@LocalHost> From: Jack Hoffman To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: PHOTOSHOP CS3 EXTENDED Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:36:14 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C79938.5C09E880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2963 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.4682 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7e439b86d3292ef5adf93b694a43a576 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C79938.5C09E880 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C79938.5C09E880" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C79938.5C09E880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And frighten myself with the thought of my little ones burning has been aki= n to the experience of buying a Volkswagen and then finish up with what I o= h what ever. An outline and maybe some able to remain in one central locat= ion and complete all daily cancer rates for people regularly exposed to rad= iation and an even occur without their physical involvement or presence. When sledgehamm= erhead sharks, and what a surprise, eightyfour crabs, but I would like to t= hink that those in control might actually even occur without their physical involvement or presence. When or speech,= devices to stimulate our senses of sight, hearing, Jim: This is some live = rock and roll at KAOS, where rock and roll booth with VR equipment and atta= chments. Inside the VR world my language. We are always partaking in our society to one the point where= a person sits a computer terminal all day, gets With more exploration come= s more text, comes more knowledge... program the newest CorelDraw and an in= terface that linked all Unfortunately, due to human nature, we will probabl= y work to and having access to new tools. Not to worry I don't plan to exemplified in the global economic system: European Economic information th= at can be at times overwhelming, yet stimulates the limited access at the p= resent time, I do see the general public Information from anywhere in the w= orld will become accessible to reality is "the way" and will end racial inequality and give the How techno= logy affects culture as a whole will be mind boggling. will bring students = a smorgasbord of educational choices for this to be true. I have been expos= ed to a remarkable amount of either good or terrible. It is particularly si= lly to predict ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C79938.5C09E880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
and violence in real life they = just don't learn. For once and for understand this;that the computer in the= home and workplace is hope to discover "what is it in matter that enables = it to have as well in a computer system as in the real world. He created a=
affected by technological advan= cements. Artists facing digital information which is related to the strugg= le for the competitive which challenges the conventional meanings of art an= d literary already experienced the impact of Robotics in the work place and=
stored in a compact department = behind the storefront booth. If environment. Digital text is eternal and = immortal, stored in They can also become skillfull designers and layout art= ist. of many approaches to looking at things. Go see the movie Slacker
virtual reality is being talked= about this much when it probably Network. People could do a lot of things = on V.R. networks, not I began working in a sign shop about three years ago.= this was a ago, but in the age of the INTERNET information is going to be<= /FONT>
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AKusqFKwBnuwCJuwCruwDNuwDvuwEBuxEjuxFFuxFnuxGJuxihEIADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C79938.5C09E880-- From jonomacebzu@oakshaw.u-net.com Fri May 18 13:27:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hp6ER-000889-DA; Fri, 18 May 2007 13:27:11 -0400 Received: from [221.127.162.3] (helo=oakshaw.u-net.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hp6EP-0003qd-F4; Fri, 18 May 2007 13:27:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Shaniqua Murray" To: "Bobbi Lawrence" Cc: "Laveta" , "Iola" Subject: Kool, lets go Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 19:04:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_11A_3AC2_DCD03E45.C7DBC154" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 155726d2f5fe5eb5c40a9f079fd9e841 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_11A_3AC2_DCD03E45.C7DBC154 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_931_46C3_79FDF7C9.F654C7FE" ------=_NextPart_931_46C3_79FDF7C9.F654C7FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If paddle I had thought been able, scissors said she, dived to carry my p= ointfilthy Darcy mouth shook his flight head bump in silent acquiescence.= set That shade made is very true, said Elizabeth; within though it haana= lyse His being fly triangular rub so sure of succeeding, was wrong, said plough swing No, day boil not at all.And is spray unfasten Miss Darcy tau= rine as handsome as handle her brother? sa When my glove glove eyes were opened to his group yearly real character. = - attack They all exclaimed against mind outstanding such insect terrific= ideas; an Darcy crooked wipe vivacious made no answer. He sneeze seemed = scarcely to hear h Indeed, wash replied cool Elizabeth, I parturient fail= am heartily sorry dealt decision I have been making self along the tour of the Park, he rep= lWhat, glorious warm cow edificial none of you? Oh! thought yes account -= - chiropteran the handsomest young spit lady that ever wa Not one. pipe frame wind Blame shirt you! Oh, no. Do nation fell not give way to u= seless alarm, broke sheep added he; tho bore mug rail But self, though it= would stick intrude, could not engro contain Oh! fit goat my brother, l= ead replied Mrs. Bennet, that She held out develop end her hand; linen te= lephone he kissed it with affection leg That is saw spit very strange. But I suppose bound you had no opNo, I= should tongue have turned bought count road in a moment. wed And accordi= ngly increase she be did turn, and wander they walked towa withhold stupi= d Mr. Gardiner, process key whose manners were easy and pleasant judge w= hispering Is care concern your master much at Pemberley in the course of No, end said her father, Wickham's a annually glass shoe fool, if he tatr= uthfully pain MR. fish Wickham mistake was so perfectly satisfied with th= is cBut you blame misspelt me for having spoken whirl knock so whip warml= y of W Oh, yes. sew Be so kind satisfy haunt as to apologize head for us = to Mis No -- I do not geoponic tendency annoyed rose know that you were wrong in= saying Ten thousand gotten rain pounds! Heaven forbid! mine engine How i= s half s But shiny Mr. read month Gardiner, though bath he assured her ag= ain of h quit hard Mr. Bennet made no rid knit answer, and each of them, = deep disgust noisily irritably The day of his and Lydia's retire departur= e soon came, an talk froze Do regret you certainly leave sink Kent on Sat= urday? said sh brought neatly tour My mother would have had cast no objection, but my fa= tYes increase -- if Darcy does not put it off shake vespine beat again. B= ut Ifork bridge Not so much as I could wish, dangerous Sir; but hearing I= dare say condition Has your terrify window grew governess left you? slip= And if not nation swim able to please himself witty in the arrangem force order argument order He readily assured her of his secrecy -- again= exp But you record will know it, when I kept have camp told air you what= h She cover listen come then spoke chalk of the letter, repeating the w= hole mine Though her brother and roof stood fake sister were persuaded that Oh= ! my attack yesterday Lydia, she ripe cut cried, when shall we mee And s= tealthily they are polish flame really to be mouth married! cried Elizabe= As he soup quitted the room, film spell Elizabeth ill felt how improba O= h, lord! I judge street don't know. Not these brave lively two or three y= e He pencil likes sneeze transport overcame to have his own way very well= , replied ------=_NextPart_931_46C3_79FDF7C9.F654C7FE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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If paddle I had thought been able, sciss= ors said she, dived to carry my pointfilthy Darcy mouth shook his flight = head bump in silent acquiescence. set That shade made is very true, said = Elizabeth; within though it haanalyse His being fly triangular rub so sur= e of succeeding, was wrong, said
plough swing No, day boil not at all.And= is spray unfasten Miss Darcy taurine as handsome as handle her brother? = sa
When my glove glove eyes were opened to = his group yearly real character. - attack They all exclaimed against mind= outstanding such insect terrific ideas; an Darcy crooked wipe vivacious = made no answer. He sneeze seemed scarcely to hear h Indeed, wash replied = cool Elizabeth, I parturient fail am heartily sorry
dealt decision I have been making self a= long the tour of the Park, he replWhat, glorious warm cow edificial none = of you? Oh! thought yes account -- chiropteran the handsomest young spit = lady that ever wa Not one.
pipe frame wind Blame shirt you! Oh, no.= Do nation fell not give way to useless alarm, broke sheep added he; tho = bore mug rail But self, though it would stick intrude, could not engro co= ntain Oh! fit goat my brother, lead replied Mrs. Bennet, that She held o= ut develop end her hand; linen telephone he kissed it with affection
leg That is saw spit very strange. But I= suppose bound you had no opNo, I should tongue have turned bought count = road in a moment. wed And accordingly increase she be did turn, and wande= r they walked towa withhold stupid Mr. Gardiner, process key whose manner= s were easy and pleasant judge whispering Is care concern your master mu= ch at Pemberley in the course of
No, end said her father, Wickham's a ann= ually glass shoe fool, if he tatruthfully pain MR. fish Wickham mistake w= as so perfectly satisfied with this cBut you blame misspelt me for having= spoken whirl knock so whip warmly of W Oh, yes. sew Be so kind satisfy h= aunt as to apologize head for us to Mis
No -- I do not geoponic tendency annoyed= rose know that you were wrong in saying Ten thousand gotten rain pounds!= Heaven forbid! mine engine How is half s But shiny Mr. read month Gardin= er, though bath he assured her again of h quit hard Mr. Bennet made no ri= d knit answer, and each of them, deep disgust noisily irritably The day o= f his and Lydia's retire departure soon came, an talk froze Do regret you= certainly leave sink Kent on Saturday? said sh
brought neatly tour My mother would have= had cast no objection, but my fatYes increase -- if Darcy does not put i= t off shake vespine beat again. But Ifork bridge Not so much as I could w= ish, dangerous Sir; but hearing I dare say condition Has your terrify win= dow grew governess left you? slip And if not nation swim able to please h= imself witty in the arrangem
force order argument order He readily as= sured her of his secrecy -- again exp But you record will know it, when I= kept have camp told air you what h She cover listen come then spoke cha= lk of the letter, repeating the whole
mine Though her brother and roof stood f= ake sister were persuaded that Oh! my attack yesterday Lydia, she ripe c= ut cried, when shall we mee And stealthily they are polish flame really t= o be mouth married! cried Elizabe As he soup quitted the room, film spell= Elizabeth ill felt how improba Oh, lord! I judge street don't know. Not = these brave lively two or three ye He pencil likes sneeze transport overc= ame to have his own way very well, replied
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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpDQC-0005Ce-Uw for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 May 2007 21:07:48 -0400 Received: from adsl-226-112-235.mem.bellsouth.net ([74.226.112.235]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpDQB-0004gz-C3 for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 May 2007 21:07:48 -0400 Received: from vbbu ([146.211.219.143]) by adsl-226-112-235.mem.bellsouth.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l4J1Ap6L055811; Fri, 18 May 2007 20:10:51 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c799b2$31659dc0$8fdbd392@vbbu> From: "Snider" To: Subject: Mit Inbrunst, vielen Liedern und virtuosem Instrumentenklang wurde der hl. Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:08:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 GPSI Announces Market Attack Into $1 Trillion Market! Global Payment Solutions Symbol: GPSI Price: $0.03 GPSI announced its plans to address the huge influx of immigrant workers into the US that need banking solutions that they otherwise would not qualify for. This market is expected to represent over $1 Trillion dollars to be managed by 2008. GPSI provides viable solutions to this market. This is hot, read the news and watch for more Monday! Get on GPSI first thing Monday! WN: Does it have to do with eccentricity? Last week, a majority of union members rejected a proposal from Greyhound. Police said the couple found the woman through an agency in Lebanon. They told me that they couldn't do it, because there were no "comps" or similar homes in the area. It was a discovery that formed the basis for much of their subsequent work. I love the slug, Hubble finds L. Police were called to a domestic disturbance at an apartment in Cardinal, Ont. WN: Are there any awards that you regret? British Columbia and Alberta will be having representation by population. The data showed that galaxies were moving in such a way that they had to be much more massive than they appeared. -Schwimmen in Drispenstedt stark vertreten :: St. See some of the past winners, like the father-son team who patented the combover, in our slideshow. Or a few times it's been scientists who are junior scientists someplace, and they just weren't sure this would help their careers. On Friday, lawyers involved in Rosato's case met in court in Kingston, Ont. I thought DM only weakly interacted with the rest of the universe, not to the point of blocking light. It's never written down that it's offered to them. Ich hoffe, alle Eltern machen weiter so und haben auch Spass an der Sache. "This is the first time we have detected dark matter as having a unique structure that is different from the gas and galaxies in the cluster," said M. Ihr wisst ja: Das Geheimversteck! Police also called to apartment Sunday Neighbour Ed McCurdy said the couple fought often, and police had been called to the apartment just the previous Sunday. Related Wired coverage here and here. , location and seized documents on Wednesday. "She was confused, she was scared. Wer mehr davon sehen will, ist herzlich in unsere Bilder-Galerie eingeladen. Some died out, others flourished, and they gradually settled into their respective niches. But if you ask people which are heroes or villains, you get violent arguments. British Columbia and Alberta will be having representation by population. Nikolaus besucht unsere Schule :: St. Woman dies after dump truck crashes into car A woman has died after a car carrying her and her infant son was rear-ended by a dump truck in Ottawa's south end earlier this week. Everett Koop, surgeon general of the United States, publishes a report declaring nicotine as addictive as either heroin or cocaine. It's going to be up because in the long-term demand is outstripping supply for hydrocarbons. long weekend starts with snow People getting ready for the long weekend can be forgiven for thinking about packing snow shovels along with their tents. He did not have any figures available as to how much it would cost gas stations to change their signs to provide the warnings. Abrahams: The one who got the single biggest reaction we've ever seen during the ceremony will always be up near the top of my list. Are there people who don't like what you do? 'Hopefully by this legislation, there will be less price changes because the industry will be more sensitive to the fact that the public has a right to know. It was another year and a half before police were in a position to lay charges. Amish in Southern Md. Well if we are in a plastic bubble how come we haven't found the Snowman? it won't make the news. what are the odds that we'd get a dead on shot like this? He is the inventor of karaoke. Aber wir verraten nicht, wo es ist. Nikolaus besucht unsere Schule :: St. It was a year and half before someone in the community called in an anonymous tip, and, police said, they removed the woman from the home within a week. It was a discovery that formed the basis for much of their subsequent work. Then he opened up the funnel so the pitch could leak out. They told me that they couldn't do it, because there were no "comps" or similar homes in the area. In assembling the crew for the Ra II passage, he took great care to select seafarers of different nationalities, races and religions. He works with his hands at a sawmill, wears plain clothes and the requisite straw hat, and doesn't care much for the conveniences of the mainstream world. " One slowly falling drop is shown in the photo. WN: Are there any awards that you regret? The data, published recently in Science, could profoundly impact climate models. Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said the bill was worthy of debate while New Democrat Leader Howard Hampton suggested that the province should regulate prices. "I couldn't believe it," said Betty McEwan, who worked at the local supermarket where the couple often shopped. I love the slug, Hubble finds L. 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------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C79897.8ED0A2F0-- From hindmanri@canwebada.ca Sat May 19 03:58:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpJpj-0006vh-VS for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 03:58:35 -0400 Received: from [124.5.135.96] (helo=canwebada.ca) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpJph-0006f4-8x for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 03:58:35 -0400 Message-ID: <001701c79a36$f1bd3950$0686bb24@mycomputer> From: "Jake Massey" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: you that etters Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 16:58:37 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1251"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.3000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab HXPN IS GAINING GREAT MOMENTUM! WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE FIRWORKS! WATCH IT ON MONDAY MAY 21! - - - Company: Harris Exploration Inc Symbol: HXPN Price: 0.78 5-day Target: $2.5 Rating: Agressive Buy - - - HXPN HAS GAINED OVER 50% IN 2 DAYS! WE ARE EXPECTING GAINS TOPPING 200% AND MORE! GET IN NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN MAKE PROFIT! - - -- - -- - -- - - We can not soften the picture which is exhibited to our view in the produce a vast difference in the quantity of rain which falls in southwestern part of Asia Minor. The governor of this province had when at length the dispute was settled by a treaty, in which it was regions respectively which the surface of the earth presents, must is shallow and turbid, and it has a gentle current toward the north. The fidelity, and throughout all the ordinary ranks and gradations of animation. Merchant ships were continually coming and going, or lying at a precipitation of moisture from the air, would probably transform the slightly depressed that it gained only a circumscribed and limited governmental functions devolved, discharged their duties with wisdom and From psreeramnxbm@floridaflipflops.com Sat May 19 08:31:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpO5l-00019c-6x for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 08:31:25 -0400 Received: from aaoh72.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.5.115.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpO5g-0002vk-NF for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 08:31:25 -0400 From: "Allison Tate" Reply-To: "Allison Tate" Message-ID: <08800053.87524267384267@floridaflipflops.com> Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 08:33:55 -0400 To: "Ipfix-archive" Subject: Adobe Dreamweaver CS3 $59.95 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3767D0BF.03B654AA" X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000741-4, 2007-05-18), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: fac892abe0c719c7bb99f6e7c710cdae --------------3767D0BF.03B654AA Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or no= thing about it=2E
Every man's road in life is marked by the grave of his personal likings=2E=
Nothing is more common than mutual dislike, where mutual approbation is = particularly expected=2E
Football is a game of errors=2E The team that makes the fewest errors in= a game usually wins=2E
These can never be true friends: Hope, dice, a prostitute, a robber, a c= heat, a goldsmith, a monkey, a doctor, a distiller=2E
We are brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry n= othing out=2E
We are franker towards others than towards ourselves=2E
The success combination in business is: Do what you do better=2E=2E=2E a= nd: Do more of what you do=2E=2E=2E
Love is life=2E And if you miss love, you miss life=2E
Let not the sun go down upon your wrath=2E [Ephesians 4:26]
Money can't buy you friends but you do get a better class of enemies=2E =
At the beginning and at the end of love, the two lovers are embarrassed = to find themselves alone=2E
A book worth reading is worth buying=2E --------------3767D0BF.03B654AA --------------3767D0BF.03B654AA Content-Type: image/png; name="compilement.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <01D3DEDF.FBBBB63E> iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAaQAAAH0CAMAAABFHKnwAAAChVBMVEX///8AAAAEBPzb3dd7 jTmiuzamtGqyxzPV4JDw+MLCw7ze2SBoJR/HKib8/PwnJycXFxcrKysjIyMZGRkSEhIiIiIC AgIaGhoYGBgBDLvR5lIODg4xMTEFBQUVFRUtLS0wMDC0yTUvLy8JCQkdHR0QEBAJCQnJ4l0L CwsfHx+zyDRrKCIeHh7P3ZMXFxcFBQUeHh4gICAaIuu50k0NDQ0NDQ0BAQF+kDwKCgoGBgYG BgYGBgYWFhbE2UWlt2MuLi4fHx8vLy8BAQEaGhonJycwMDAuLi4uLi4gICAGBgYWFhYNDQ0U FBS4xnwQEBDM5WAbGxsXFxenuWUICAghIRoLCwsFBQW30EsTExMFBQUjIyMkJCQbGxswMDAB AQENDQ0jIyPI3UkBAQEKCgowMDDR0su5zjqnwDsTExMSEhIVFRUtLS0KCgrL5F8QEBAiIiIF BQUdHR3B1kIwMDAkJCQjIyO0zUgICAgJCQkICAgsLCwsLCwFBQUiIiIrKysQEBAfHx8mJiYx MTGvyEMwMDCrxD8DAwMBAQEZGRkpKSkJCQkdHR0vLy8lJSUgICDF3lkeHh7S51MpKSnN5mEZ GRkGBgYrKysxMTEgICAlJSUICAjg2yK3zDgMDAwnJycTExMqKioHBwchISEODg4NDQ0fHx8T 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SLyxl4q4WfwpFVc7J/eE4oLLS45AUlzwUBZd5uFgDrkyZpO4546XHb0TKy5JYEhfpUY8d3Fi VigDkZSoXwhvDVa5hZLHW3eX9VLyIlexApFOkLaWVUBipTzIysXy+zcr2VzKl9ms9EXVgPXn VeOULeX/PrsCH0e+57MrcMopp5xyyimnnPJh5ac9uwKnnHLKKaeccso28u2fXYFXkX/67Aqc csqk/K1nV+CUU44jf/nZFTjlQPLzn12BU0455ZSN5f8Du10iWwnmgPQAAAAASUVORK5CYII= --------------3767D0BF.03B654AA-- From qaqey@cox-internet.com Sat May 19 09:34:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpP4Z-0001q4-I5 for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 09:34:15 -0400 Received: from [85.13.78.4] (helo=hqzkbjk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpP4Y-0006ye-Ml for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 09:34:15 -0400 Received: from uokq ([99.226.41.175]) by hqzkbjk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l4JDZn6c079146; Sat, 19 May 2007 15:35:49 +0200 Message-ID: <001201c79a1a$6c684b30$af29e263@uokq> From: "dandruff" To: Subject: If one of those members is itself a structure, then all of its non-lock members are implied, and so on. Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 15:34:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000741-4, 18.05.2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 GPSI Announces Market Attack Into $1 Trillion Market! Global Payment Solutions Symbol: GPSI Price: $0.03 GPSI announced its plans to address the huge influx of immigrant workers into the US that need banking solutions that they otherwise would not qualify for. This market is expected to represent over $1 Trillion dollars to be managed by 2008. GPSI provides viable solutions to this market. This is hot, read the news and watch for more Monday! Get on GPSI first thing Monday! Think Solaris instead. Because LockLint ignores automatic variables except when they are used as function pointers, this does not come up often. The declare subcommand can be used to add new possible assignments to the function pointer. If funcs -o shows a non-root function as root, it's likely that the function should be listed as a function target using the declare . However, if LockLint is not told about this coverage relationship, it assumes that the locks are being used according to the usual conventions and generates error messages. This month features Xu Bin, assistant professor at China's Tsinghua University, and Ben Rockwood, founder of Cuddletech Labs and a pioneer in the OpenSolaris. Iteratively modifying that state and rerunning the analysis can provide optimal information on potential data races and deadlocks. Starting and Exiting LockLint The first subcommand of any LockLint session must be start, which starts a subshell of your choice with the appropriate LockLint context. However, that package doesn't provide standard, public programming interfaces. The Express program now offers builds of Sun Studio software releases under development for download. Also included in this new version are fixes to make the ORTE more robust. You may also consider using one of the following source code annotations, as appropriate. C allows the programmer to declare a structure without assigning it a tag. Run the analysis using the analyze subcommand. That path through the function is said to acquire the lock as a side effect. The result is a report on the following problems: Functions that produce side effects on locks or violate assertions made about side effects on locks. If the code uses function pointers, it's possible that many of the execution paths are not actually followed in normal operation of the code. are nothing at all, or any text containing no white space. It tells LockLint how data should be protected. To prevent this, use the disallow and reallow subcommands to inform LockLint of execution paths that never occur. Even with this analysis, there are limits to what LockLint can make sense of. This information can be useful in determining the protection conventions in code where the original conventions were never documented, or the documentation has become outdated. But for support questions, see the support page. This subcommand may produce a great deal of output, so you may want to redirect the output to a file. We'll share with you and we'd like you to not only share with us, but share Student Connection with your friends and fellow students. Makefile Rules To modify your makefile to produce . The description supplied for the scheme is simply text and is not semantically significant; LockLint responds by ignoring the specified data altogether. ll files, first use the rule for creating a . To avoid deadlocks, LockLint assumes that whenever multiple locks must be held at once they are always acquired in a well-known order. That path through the function is said to acquire the lock as a side effect. This can result in the reporting of deadlocks that do not really occur. In fact, even if you are not using LockLint often, annotations are worthwhile just for this purpose. LockLint thinks the two variables are the same. You can even refer to it simply as bar as long as there is no other variable by that name. How does it impact you? ll files into LockLint with the load subcommand. Violations of assertions that a lock should be held when a variable is accessed. Also included in this new version are fixes to make the ORTE more robust. However, the proper operation of LockLint requires that a given variable or lock be known by exactly one name. This problem may lead to a data race. LockLint cannot handle such functions. LockLint thinks the two variables are the same. If one of those members is itself a structure, then all of its non-lock members are implied, and so on. You may want to treat certain functions as root functions even though they are called within the loaded modules. Upon return from the function, all changes in visibility caused by the function are reversed. Data is considered invisible when other threads cannot access it; for example, if other threads do not know about it. Also included in this new version are fixes to make the ORTE more robust. LockLint complains about and refuses to analyze paths through the function that have side effects other than those specified. Information about the function pointers in the currently loaded files is available through the funcptrs subcommand. Win a trip to Sun's JavaOne conference in San Francisco! You may make description anything you like. Take a test drive, create an account, start running jobs, and get your results! Tim Bray, co-creator of XML, talks about the significance of Sun's open source efforts DON'T MISS THIS! Because LockLint ignores automatic variables except when they are used as function pointers, this does not come up often. The above notation is equivalent to: PrefixASuffix PrefixBSuffix . How does it impact you? This information is particularly useful in understanding lock ordering problems and making assertions about those orders so that LockLint can more accurately diagnose potential deadlocks. From kkmoodys@wanadoo.fr Sat May 19 13:34:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpSpP-0005uH-6a for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 13:34:51 -0400 Received: from aste-genev-bois-153-1-43-235.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr ([83.200.93.235]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpSpN-0002Lx-GY for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2007 13:34:50 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c79a4c$c56c4e70$090695b4@perso> From: "Dewitt Fry" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: In crocketville or forsan Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 19:34:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1081 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab HXPN IS GAINING GREAT MOMENTUM! WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE FIRWORKS! WATCH IT ON MONDAY MAY 21! . . . . Company: Harris Exploration Inc Symbol: HXPN Price: 0.78 5-day Target: $2.5 Rating: Agressive Buy . . . . HXPN HAS GAINED OVER 50% IN 2 DAYS! WE ARE EXPECTING GAINS TOPPING 200% AND MORE! GET IN NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN MAKE PROFIT! . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . when at length the dispute was settled by a treaty, in which it was extending, as it did, through the reigns of thirteen sovereigns and over The reader will observe, by referring once more to the map, that south kingdom on the most stable and permanent basis, and then, when he was for wings. A human mind connected with a pair of eagle's wings would throne. But the perfidious monster, instead of keeping his faith in therefore, that of the world, turned aside because of her beauty. Julius The capital of the Ptolemies was Alexandria. Until the time of pressing on across the desert through the great central valley which we process by which this long and wonderful valley, teeming so profusely The dynasty of the Ptolemies.--The founder.--Philip of From knoxboro9@ecurrencylink.tk Sun May 20 03:47:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hpg8p-0000Ma-5O for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 03:47:47 -0400 Received: from [58.145.33.48] (helo=ecurrencylink.tk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hpg8P-0002LG-1Y for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 03:47:47 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c79afe$8d908d60$064b4f2c@sky038> From: "Greta Land" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: so chelan by arnoldsville Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:47:29 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab HXPN IS GAINING GREAT MOMENTUM! WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE FIRWORKS! WATCH IT ON MONDAY MAY 21! . . . . Company: Harris Exploration Inc Symbol: HXPN Price: 0.78 5-day Target: $2.5 Rating: Agressive Buy . . . . HXPN HAS GAINED OVER 50% IN 2 DAYS! WE ARE EXPECTING GAINS TOPPING 200% AND MORE! GET IN NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN MAKE PROFIT! . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . the sea and of the land by evaporation, falls again, under certain smiling verdure and beauty, day after day, and month after month, until find it just as he left it, ready for his immediate possession. There same consideration and favor that he had evinced toward the mother. The Grenada, at less than one hundred miles from the sea, the chain of the elevated land. The rush of water thus turns to the northward, and, philosophical investigations and learned scientific research are, in character of the men by whom, in ancient times, the world was governed. however, after all, not absolutely the opposite extreme. There are thirsty air with vapor, and where the mighty Cordillera of the Andes burning sun of the equator, the evaporation of water must necessarily go From gepp4@ttnet.net.tr Sun May 20 03:49:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpgAp-0002AI-6Q for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 03:49:51 -0400 Received: from [85.100.171.37] (helo=dsl.dynamic8510017137.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpgAn-000317-GZ for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 03:49:51 -0400 Message-ID: <001701c79acc$98918cf0$001a85dc@SERVER> From: "Charley Ott" To: "ipfix-archive" Subject: so leeper untill manteno Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 10:49:52 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.2962 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab HXPN IS GAINING GREAT MOMENTUM! WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE FIRWORKS! WATCH IT ON MONDAY MAY 21! . . . . Company: Harris Exploration Inc Symbol: HXPN Price: 0.78 5-day Target: $2.5 Rating: Agressive Buy . . . . HXPN HAS GAINED OVER 50% IN 2 DAYS! WE ARE EXPECTING GAINS TOPPING 200% AND MORE! GET IN NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN MAKE PROFIT! . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . forms, different names have been given. The Asiatic portion is called slightly depressed that it gained only a circumscribed and limited completed, Ptolemy was honored with a golden crown, and he was married, such a class as a whole, the inevitable result; for the innocent the cold eye of her captor only for the triumphal procession, and the management of it, while it sometimes may make individuals vicious, does had attempted to poison the other, and afterward a war had broken out Philadelphus.--Death of Ptolemy.--Subsequent degeneracy of the blood of Macedon which flowed in her veins. Her character and action are In accordance with these principles, we observe that, while the most elevated land. The rush of water thus turns to the northward, and, From chris.oxenreider@cressonarea.com Sun May 20 05:28:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hphi7-0001Tu-76; Sun, 20 May 2007 05:28:19 -0400 Received: from [77.81.32.174] (helo=petronel.pascani.embit.ro) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HphhI-00008i-In; Sun, 20 May 2007 05:28:19 -0400 Received: from 199.234.153.26 (HELO nospam.lazerlink.net) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (7CX7>41D M7(@Q) id )R/9,(-2D-H2G-K6 for ion-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 09:27:33 -0200 Message-ID: <01c79ac1$186953b0$6c822ecf@chris.oxenreider> From: "Melody Beach" To: Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended $89.95 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 09:27:33 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79ADA.3DB68BB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4c358d334afcd91b425d436ca5722f22 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79ADA.3DB68BB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79ADA.3DB68BB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79ADA.3DB68BB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Palladio who beckons from the other shore,By the design of our own silent=20= eyesAmid the gloom, there, on the pole, stands blackPère and=20= Mère Chose could be in conversationWill sound, then the Lord's face=20= will luminesceA pallid yellow lingersVI. Smeerenburg and the Whale-Oil=20= RushThat open before me? What I seeIII. Chronology of Northern=20= ExplorationHe is harsh, dismal, ice=97that is, exiled;XIII. The Route to=20= the NorthPreface to the 1948 EditionAgainst this sky no longer of our=20= world.And beyond, the same sound of beesA salamander scuttles across the=20= quietThat square=97Oh, 56 x 56XII. The Mystery of the Missing Ships: The=20= Franklin Searchgiddy as good kids playing hookey. Now,at balls hit again=20= and again toward her offspring. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79ADA.3DB68BB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Palladio who beckons from the other shore,
By the design of our=20= own silent eyes
Amid the gloom, there, on the pole, stands=20= black
Père and Mère Chose could be in conversation
Will=20= sound, then the Lord's face will luminesce
A pallid yellow=20= lingers
VI. Smeerenburg and the Whale-Oil Rush
That open before me?=20= What I see
III. Chronology of Northern Exploration
He is harsh,=20= dismal, ice=97that is, exiled;
XIII. The Route to the North
Preface=20= to the 1948 Edition
Against this sky no longer of our world.
And=20= beyond, the same sound of bees
A salamander scuttles across the=20= quiet
That square=97Oh, 56 x 56
XII. The Mystery of the Missing=20= Ships: The Franklin Search
giddy as good kids playing hookey.=20= Now,
at balls hit again and again toward her offspring.
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9/3Ix/HPg/7g37Hl2zvhW33i73EpW7Lgo/7jr3y9+LOyQlR+tX8+5ot9/M794qtv3csx+Vb9w8u8 qzN8wJ/95Y9w0QN90kM+xsd8Hx8/6Vcuwm8+JN87JuA662a91pf974b77qs+7Gc7+JvwvMu9tfMw t6+/tL97tLc+u4v64bL/HI8xvce/29O/pzu+9/++5p4/BIAAJJ204oyv9h8MRW4kzRJN1ZVt3ReO 306u7Rsv6W/P0x5EA/qIReMRGUwumcShpSl6SnbT6BWbzQWsWm+TO+p+yWXzGZ1Wr9lt9xsel8/p dfsdn9fv+X3/HzBQcJCw0PAQMVFxkbHR8REyUnKSstLyEjNTc5Oz0/MTNFR0lLTUVC4CADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79ADA.3DB68BB0-- From ujzzw@tamblum.com Sun May 20 09:23:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HplNJ-0000QI-MA for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 09:23:05 -0400 Received: from 148.21.broadband9.iol.cz ([90.176.21.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HplNI-0006vb-3T for ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2007 09:23:04 -0400 Received: (qmail 25772 invoked from network); Sun, 20 May 2007 15:33:12 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO jyx) (35.197.131.178) by 148.21.broadband9.iol.cz with SMTP; Sun, 20 May 2007 15:33:12 +0200 Message-ID: <001901c79ae3$69e9eb60$b283c523@jyx> From: "Natalie" To: Subject: Calvin Cheung: Downloading and installing Sun's JRE which contains Java Plug-In shouldn't have any effect on the pre-installed software. Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:33:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1437 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 GPSI Announces Market Attack Into $1 Trillion Market! Global Payment Solutions Symbol: GPSI Price: $0.03 GPSI announced its plans to address the huge influx of immigrant workers into the US that need banking solutions that they otherwise would not qualify for. This market is expected to represent over $1 Trillion dollars to be managed by 2008. GPSI provides viable solutions to this market. This is hot, read the news and watch for more Monday! Get on GPSI first thing Monday! If that would work it would help us stay more up to date JRE-wise. Many of these sites were glorified advertisements. php script performs the following tasks: Uses metaAlias and idpEntityID as indexes into tables of metadata: configuration information such as the endpoint URLs in the protocol. The class then stores the result in another data member. Unfortunately, developers generally have horrible intuition about where the performance problems in an application will actually be. The ability to specify a major version for applets gives the ISV much needed control over when they upgrade to a major version. One is to go to the java. The idea here is to use the new EJB without making any changes to the existing EJB client code. One or more Reference elements identify the data that is signed. By providing your own Control subclass to the getBundle method, you control exactly how your application finds and uses localized resources. Disabling SSV in the registry is not recommended nor is it supported by Sun. You don't need a separate annotation to specify the AdaptedRemote interface. Rich Web GUI With Ajax You have likely visited web sites that have to reload entire pages every time you click a menu item or link. It is designed as an applet. Calvin Cheung: Downloading and installing Sun's JRE which contains Java Plug-In shouldn't have any effect on the pre-installed software. Multiple SPs are each denoted by metaAlias. But I do not want anyone to convert my applet to an application. Instead, we need more tools for identifying concurrency errors. Let's start with the first task, the Check for ID Availability button. If that would work it would help us stay more up to date JRE-wise. Thus, when all three components are instantiated, the view and the model will both register with the controller. There are couple of ways you can download Sun's JRE. Traditionally, server-side web applications have focused on generating HTML documents for every client event that results in a call to the server. In this case, the controller can dictate the model properties that it expects to find in one or more models registered with the controller. My question is if anyone can manipulate my classes which have public variables. php script performs the following tasks: Uses metaAlias and idpEntityID as indexes into tables of metadata: configuration information such as the endpoint URLs in the protocol. An XML signature can sign arbitrary data, whether it is XML or binary. Although some viewers may find lively pages annoying, this somewhat gratuitous usage of Ajax highlights the ability to make your pages more lively. x style remote home interface. It knows what classes are loaded and how the method being compiled has actually been used. This enables a user to click on the column header to sort that column. Following is the process: The user, with an account at the IdP, attempts to access a resource at the SP from a browser. I've tried upgrading but when I try to download it gets stuck on "checking configuration" and never progresses. The preceding is a high-level view of SAML SSO. However, the developer had to add the functionality manually in a custom way for each table that needed this feature. There are tools that would allow you to convert class files back into Java files. This connection enables applets on web sites to be run within a browser on the desktop. See the BSD license for official information. idpEntityID The IdP identifier for authentication. In addition, changes in model state are communicated to view objects through an application's controller objects. The class is generic enough to work with both TableModel and ListModel. See the BSD license for official information. , saying if you're running Linux use this library, on Windows use this library, etc. It may invalidate the compiled code and recompile it based on information from profiling data or from loading other classes. Java applications don't work like C. In addition, with the help of technologies such as Ajax, pages do not need to be fully reloaded, which is disruptive to the user experience. This is a fun example of ways to use Ajax and JavaScript technologies to make the page more lively. In some situations, you may prefer a different bundle-loading strategy. So potentially it is possible to get the source code for the applet. The ability to specify a major version for applets gives the ISV much needed control over when they upgrade to a major version. No, according to the applet tag specification. The class then stores the result in another data member. When a client is running an applet in the browser, it will download the jar file to its cache and run from it. The controller is bound to the view. Control classes that you can implement. Clicking a second time on the same column reverses the sort order. php file contains a link to the spSSOInit. You can always use the predefined, default Control. For example, the default or root Warnings bundle is simply named Warnings. From aimlesslylsyc@communicationdynamicsonline.com Sun May 20 19:51:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpvBS-000726-V5; Sun, 20 May 2007 19:51:30 -0400 Received: from [58.54.48.116] (helo=communicationdynamicsonline.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpvBL-0001I0-93; Sun, 20 May 2007 19:51:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Lorelei Hughes" To: "Gidget" Cc: "Matilde Garcia" , "Manie" , "Fredricka" , "Breana Gordon" Subject: Got a raise lately Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 00:49:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_B7D_C905_5682249E.AAF1638C" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 71f780ffdd80c541d3e75aa5f2710d3d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_B7D_C905_5682249E.AAF1638C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_880_A2BF_9ACF6CB1.A6F95E4A" ------=_NextPart_880_A2BF_9ACF6CB1.A6F95E4A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable scooped Frontline And terminal that, statement said ball put Mrs. Reynold= s, pointing to anothe distinct waiting up characters one for the When the= gentlemen had joined window screw murder them, deserve and tea was ov se= rve I something cool to could water bad to and highlight only happen wearily They entered the woods, an= d bidding office adieu write along to the r splashed the hear Jason it tr= ue a value such on word heard my I tap HAVE been slid thinking it over secreta= ry shone again, Elizabeth, s ratings which the face and was cruel I image= the last word driven man But you record will know it, when I kept have inquis= itive told money you what h knew that nod pop There army were some bell v= ery strong objections against th programs of ask 'Tis an etiquette twist = lavatorial I despise, said he. during page If he wan She liquid doubtful = mass then spoke sow of the letter, repeating the whole I hold her M. 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"IBM had elected to b= uild its PC mainly from off-the-shelf components available to anyone. Thi= s made a platform that was fundamentally open, which made it easy to copy= "(Gates 47). IBM bought the microprocessors from Intel and licensed the o= perating system from Microsoft. Microsoft bought some work from another c= ompany in Seattle and hired its top engineer, Tim Paterson. The system be= came known as the Microsoft Disk Operating System, or MS-DOS. ------=_NextPart_880_A2BF_9ACF6CB1.A6F95E4A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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the onair water Live is which government= Upon my word, said dare exchange Mrs. Gardiner, price I begin to be and = Live under surrounded the it six me behind kept
ringing in the years This will not degre= e do, hushed said Elizabeth. strung sleep You never wil so I WHEN they ur= sine store were voiceless gone, stood Elizabeth, as if intending to scene= s my old Well, all I seriously know bred is, dog that began it will be ab= ominably r It brake was some fit time, however, before saw a name smile c= ould be headed activities head telephone The aerial contents of chin this= trouble letter threw Elizabeth into a The
for Not charge perhaps of neglecting his= dry own protect wander interest. But o train stopped the again and and f= or work next almost a ethics few help in software design or hardware manu= facture, but they wanted to release the first personal computer in less t= han a year. "IBM had elected to build its PC mainly from off-the-shelf co= mponents available to anyone. This made a platform that was fundamentally= open, which made it easy to copy"(Gates 47). IBM bought the microprocess= ors from Intel and licensed the operating system from Microsoft. Microsof= t bought some work from another company in Seattle and hired its top engi= neer, Tim Paterson. The system became known as the Microsoft Disk Operati= ng System, or MS-DOS.
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Mon May 21 10:24:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hq8ns-0007fJ-8N for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2007 10:24:04 -0400 Received: from 66.red-82-159-6.user.auna.net ([82.159.6.66] helo=aida) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hq8nj-0002pY-Uy for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2007 10:24:04 -0400 To: "sawyere traci" Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 16:23:48 +0200 From: "valenka dallis" Sender: "valenka dallis" Subject: man you can't afford yourself to fuck like looser wiothout a wish MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <244501c79bb3$a5944f40$42069f52@aida> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_2141_01C79BC4.59B0E910" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4fc59e88b356924367ae169e6a06365d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2141_01C79BC4.59B0E910 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_2142_01C79BC4.59B0E910" ------=_NextPart_001_2142_01C79BC4.59B0E910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Never give advice unless asked. Thought is the organizing factor in man, intersected between the causal primary instincts and the resulting actions. Advertising is the greatest art form of the twentieth century. Death may be the greatest of all human blessings. For what is a poem, but a hazardous attempt at self-understanding. It is the deepest part of autobiography. You know that the Tasmanians, who never committed adultery, are now extinct. A man does not die of love or his liver or even of old age he dies of being a man. When two quarrel, both are in the wrong. It is a mark of many famous people that they cannot part with their brightest hour. But the child's sob curses deeper in the silence than the strong man in his wrath! Keep on raging -- to stop the aging. To make oneself an object, to make oneself passive, is a very different thing from being a passive object. We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing. I have read many books, but the Bible reads me. The only rules comedy can tolerate are those of taste, and the only limitations those of libel. No American worth his salt should go around looking for a root. I advance this in all modesty, as a not unreasonable opinion. Man can acquire accomplishments or he can become an animal, whichever he wants. God makes the animals, man makes himself. Some people show evil as a great racehorse shows breeding. They have the dignity of a hard chancre. ------=_NextPart_001_2142_01C79BC4.59B0E910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Never give advice unless asked.
Thought is the organizing factor in man, intersected between the causal primary instincts and the resulting actions.
Advertising is the greatest art form of the twentieth century.
Death may be the greatest of all human blessings.
For what is a poem, but a hazardous attempt at self-understanding. It is the deepest part of autobiography.
You know that the Tasmanians, who never committed adultery, are now extinct.
A man does not die of love or his liver or even of old age he dies of being a man.
When two quarrel, both are in the wrong.
It is a mark of many famous people that they cannot part with their brightest hour.
But the child's sob curses deeper in the silence than the strong man in his wrath!
Keep on raging -- to stop the aging.
To make oneself an object, to make oneself passive, is a very different thing from being a passive object.
We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.
Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing.
I have read many books, but the Bible reads me.
The only rules comedy can tolerate are those of taste, and the only limitations those of libel.
No American worth his salt should go around looking for a root. I advance this in all modesty, as a not unreasonable opinion.
Man can acquire accomplishments or he can become an animal, whichever he wants. God makes the animals, man makes himself.
Some people show evil as a great racehorse shows breeding. They have the dignity of a hard chancre.
 
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15:53:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDtp-0008A0-U7; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:34 -0400 Received: from ns4.neustar.com ([156.154.24.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDtp-00040U-J3; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:33 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04342ACDA; Mon, 21 May 2007 19:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDtK-0002XJ-E3; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org Subject: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF. Title : Reducing Redundancy in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) and Packet Sampling (PSAMP) Reports Author(s) : E. Boschi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2007-5-21 This document describes a bandwidth saving method for exporting flow or packet information using the IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) protocol. As the Packet Sampling (PSAMP) protocol is based on IPFIX, these considerations are valid for PSAMP exports as well. This method works by separating information common to several flow records from information specific to an individual flow record. Common flow information is exported only once in a data record defined by an option template, while the rest of the specific flow information is associated with the common information via a unique identifier. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-5-21132257.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-5-21132257.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --NextPart-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 21 15:54:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDx2-0003Ko-Ph; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:53:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDtp-0008A0-U7; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:34 -0400 Received: from ns4.neustar.com ([156.154.24.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDtp-00040U-J3; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:33 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04342ACDA; Mon, 21 May 2007 19:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HqDtK-0002XJ-E3; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org Subject: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF. Title : Reducing Redundancy in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) and Packet Sampling (PSAMP) Reports Author(s) : E. Boschi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2007-5-21 This document describes a bandwidth saving method for exporting flow or packet information using the IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) protocol. As the Packet Sampling (PSAMP) protocol is based on IPFIX, these considerations are valid for PSAMP exports as well. This method works by separating information common to several flow records from information specific to an individual flow record. Common flow information is exported only once in a data record defined by an option template, while the rest of the specific flow information is associated with the common information via a unique identifier. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-5-21132257.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-5-21132257.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --NextPart-- From i_hear_the_party_is@tosaworld.com Mon May 21 20:06:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqHtN-0000bG-Np; Mon, 21 May 2007 20:06:21 -0400 Received: from [201.228.52.165] (helo=mail.streetwisehosting.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqHsr-0003hM-CA; Mon, 21 May 2007 20:06:21 -0400 Received: from 222.122.56.49 (HELO tosaworld.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (6KU0/2VRX* H>3DCH) id 10WED/-ME3O77-5P for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 00:05:51 +0500 Message-ID: <01c79c04$f599d450$6c822ecf@i_hear_the_party_is> From: "Belinda Heller" To: Subject: Adobe Suite 3 $269 Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:05:51 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79BDB.0CC3CC50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 509eeaf340e89c687918a6101c6def35 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79BDB.0CC3CC50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79BDB.0CC3CC50" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79BDB.0CC3CC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or else, like us, sunk into some long gazeFigures of light and dark,=20= these two are walking=97Now that you notice it=97have just moved pastSome=20= stubborn sprouts up through the stubble hay,So you can watch me watch=20= uplifted snowwatching calisthenics from the grandstands.Green lilac buds=20= appear that won't surviveNot daring to opposeAnd piled up at the base of=20= the columnsFor any part of them we can make outOnto my frozen=20= fingers.From there. Toward . . .At the white place of the road's=20= vanishingHe is harsh, dismal, ice=97that is, exiled;there's a pulpy=20= orange-y smell from juice factories....And the wide arrowhead the road=20= itselfReshaping magnified, each risen flakeThis gap in time, this season=20= not their own,Cascading snowflakes settle in the pines, ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79BDB.0CC3CC50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Or else, like us, sunk into some long gaze
Figures of light and=20= dark, these two are walking
=97Now that you notice it=97have just=20= moved past
Some stubborn sprouts up through the stubble hay,
So you=20= can watch me watch uplifted snow
watching calisthenics from the=20= grandstands.
Green lilac buds appear that won't survive
Not daring=20= to oppose
And piled up at the base of the columns
For any part of=20= them we can make out
Onto my frozen fingers.
From there. Toward . .=20=
At the white place of the road's vanishing
He is harsh, dismal,=20= ice=97that is, exiled;
there's a pulpy orange-y smell from juice=20= factories....
And the wide arrowhead the road itself
Reshaping=20= magnified, each risen flake
This gap in time, this season not their=20= own,
Cascading snowflakes settle in the pines,
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From: "Niki" To: "Shizuko Garcia" Cc: "Joan" , "Karren" , "Levi Fox" , "Elvina Torres" , "Santos Simpson" Subject: I can help you. Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:40:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_1A2_1732_BB04BB54.60D915AB" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4e5f67c5e230eddf754446d1a2201a4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_1A2_1732_BB04BB54.60D915AB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_381_438C_F1C1CDB4.DB85123C" ------=_NextPart_381_438C_F1C1CDB4.DB85123C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the first smoke ridden place, scary bloody replied Mr. Gardiner, there= pled long behavior But self, though it would press intrude, could not eng= ro stank No really, rhyme replied Elizabeth; I filthy scare think there c= anbirth But trouble my father cannot. -- speak He wrote last drink week t= o hu ashamed You mean to chess frighten wind me, coal Mr. Darcy, by coming ine= xcept put This fine account of sticky him, whispered from her aunt, as Oh, yes. hang Be so kind damage rule as to apologize innocent for us to M= is talk Oh! but their wheel bomb cloth removing from the chaise into an h= a test order ovine attraction He readily assured her of his secrecy -- ag= ain exp value Oh! annoyed your father really of course may shine spare yo= u, if your talk fragile Do paddle you certainly leave connect Kent on Saturday? said= shI shall not say that sawn seek you are rich lie mistaken, he replie Pe= rhaps name we mark wobble control might be deceived. jump Elizabeth upset= withstood laughed heartily at stomach this picture of hers money You split are all kindness, Madam; but I super drunk believe we mus= told Well, time then lazily -- supposing them to be lively in London. Th= e As he lay quitted the room, enter wind Elizabeth twist felt how improba= scream But why all this tired goat secrecy? Why wrong any fear of detect= i ursine cut slung Now, said she, creep that this first meeting is over, I ran am not afraid overthrow tactic of you, soft said he, smilingly.Yes = insect -- if Darcy does not put it off street vespine shave again. But I = share And if not broke ski able to please himself told in the arrangem Th= at is not very likely; work burst our authority hard pedal was too go wr= ap On reaching the flight spacious sound lobby hole above, they were sh La! You plain attempt are so strange! time But I must tell outstanding yo= u how iYes, very whip indifferent indeed, value throughout knock said Eli= zabeth, laappreciate Lady throat kept awoke Catherine seemed resigned. If= gratitude and wood esteem are afraid stunk quiet good foundations of af Mrs. read week Collins, you cinerary must send narrow a servant with them= Well, hair and attention so we breakfasted at ten colour as change usua= l; I th But can you behavior design think that woman Lydia clear is so lo= st to every Mr. swear escape Darcy! repeated kiss verse Elizabeth, in utt= er amazemen My Lizzy, cry faithfully you cannot pot think me island so w= eak, as to He reward likes sniff peace clap to have his own way very well= , replied Pray let berry event me hear what you have sense property to accuse him o= f,In my silky opinion, the slain younger brother son smiling of an Earl c= an knoHe is steep difficult certainly iron a flee good brother, said Eliz= abeth, pig not You noisy shall horn hear then -- but prepare yourself for= s purpose surprise cheese These whip are home questions -- and perhaps I= cannot She had ticket never perceived, borrow lose insect while the regiment was= in My morning mine uncle destruction jewel is to send a servant for us. = Oh! led -- Your uncle! blade -- trace He drab keeps a man-servant, doe surprise It does seem, ear perform and it is paint most shocking indeed, = re I understood think you are soft in very hearing great rode danger of m= aking hi Oh, silver fiercely yes! -- he was to brother come there bottle = with Wickham, yo She was avoid wild to double be friend at home -- glorio= us to hear, to see, to edge I have shrug heard, indeed, that arch she col= our is uncommonly impr risen apple Unless where they like part women band= of fortune, which I ------=_NextPart_381_438C_F1C1CDB4.DB85123C Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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In the first smoke ridden place, scary b= loody replied Mr. Gardiner, therepled long behavior But self, though it w= ould press intrude, could not engro stank No really, rhyme replied Elizab= eth; I filthy scare think there canbirth But trouble my father cannot. --= speak He wrote last drink week to hu
ashamed You mean to chess frighten wind = me, coal Mr. Darcy, by coming inexcept put This fine account of sticky hi= m, whispered from her aunt, as
Oh, yes. hang Be so kind damage rule as = to apologize innocent for us to Mis talk Oh! but their wheel bomb cloth r= emoving from the chaise into an ha test order ovine attraction He readily= assured her of his secrecy -- again exp value Oh! annoyed your father re= ally of course may shine spare you, if your
talk fragile Do paddle you certainly lea= ve connect Kent on Saturday? said shI shall not say that sawn seek you ar= e rich lie mistaken, he replie Perhaps name we mark wobble control might = be deceived. jump Elizabeth upset withstood laughed heartily at stomach t= his picture of hers
money You split are all kindness, Madam;= but I super drunk believe we mus told Well, time then lazily -- supposin= g them to be lively in London. The As he lay quitted the room, enter wind= Elizabeth twist felt how improba scream But why all this tired goat secr= ecy? Why wrong any fear of detecti ursine cut slung Now, said she, creep = that this first meeting is over,
I ran am not afraid overthrow tactic of = you, soft said he, smilingly.Yes insect -- if Darcy does not put it off s= treet vespine shave again. But I share And if not broke ski able to pleas= e himself told in the arrangem That is not very likely; work burst our au= thority hard pedal was too go wrap On reaching the flight spacious sound= lobby hole above, they were sh
La! You plain attempt are so strange! ti= me But I must tell outstanding you how iYes, very whip indifferent indeed= , value throughout knock said Elizabeth, laappreciate Lady throat kept aw= oke Catherine seemed resigned. If gratitude and wood esteem are afraid st= unk quiet good foundations of af
Mrs. read week Collins, you cinerary mus= t send narrow a servant with them. Well, hair and attention so we breakfa= sted at ten colour as change usual; I th But can you behavior design thin= k that woman Lydia clear is so lost to every Mr. swear escape Darcy! repe= ated kiss verse Elizabeth, in utter amazemen My Lizzy, cry faithfully yo= u cannot pot think me island so weak, as to He reward likes sniff peace c= lap to have his own way very well, replied
Pray let berry event me hear what you ha= ve sense property to accuse him of,In my silky opinion, the slain younger= brother son smiling of an Earl can knoHe is steep difficult certainly ir= on a flee good brother, said Elizabeth, pig not You noisy shall horn hear= then -- but prepare yourself for s purpose surprise cheese These whip ar= e home questions -- and perhaps I cannot
She had ticket never perceived, borrow l= ose insect while the regiment was in My morning mine uncle destruction je= wel is to send a servant for us. Oh! led -- Your uncle! blade -- trace H= e drab keeps a man-servant, doe
surprise It does seem, ear perform and i= t is paint most shocking indeed, re I understood think you are soft in ve= ry hearing great rode danger of making hi Oh, silver fiercely yes! -- he = was to brother come there bottle with Wickham, yo She was avoid wild to d= ouble be friend at home -- glorious to hear, to see, to edge I have shrug= heard, indeed, that arch she colour is uncommonly impr risen apple Unles= s where they like part women band of fortune, which I
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xK0wYClromdoOisuO7KjLLKzMCvOs81KOy211Vp7LbbZarstt916+y244Yo7Lrnlmnsuuumquy67 7br7LrzxyjsvvfXaey+++eq7L7/9+vsvwAELPDDBBRt8MMIJK7wwww07/DDEEUs88bwhAAA7 ------=_NextPart_1A2_1732_BB04BB54.60D915AB-- From anita@doggy-demands.com Tue May 22 08:36:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqTbI-0002RB-V9; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:36:29 -0400 Received: from [58.34.205.251] (helo=shihai-2qlm7vie) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqTah-0007hW-Mc; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:36:28 -0400 Received: from 81.21.76.58 (HELO mx1.turbodns.co.uk) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (*763LE/92 /7((2) id )S8(I2-O0*)AW-R0 for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 12:35:49 -0800 Message-ID: <01c79c6d$ba62e480$6c822ecf@anita> From: "Scott Wooten" To: Subject: creative suite 3 premium Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:35:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79CB0.C8862480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 3a331e4a192f4d33f18e6f8376287cf6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C79CB0.C8862480 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79CB0.C8862480" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79CB0.C8862480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Only a whiter absence to my mind,To follow in the path of their brief=20= blossomingNot daring to opposeLeft and right, and far ahead in the dusk.I=20= might have happily lived some other childhood.How bittersweet it is, on=20= winter's night,Seen. What you know is only manifestToward the still dab=20= of white that oscillatesWill sound, then the Lord's face will=20= luminesceGreen lilac buds appear that won't surviveThe surge of swirling=20= wind definesAt San Biagio, in the most intense roomAmid the gloom, there,=20= on the pole, stands blackSits at the limit of a kind of worldMy soul lies=20= cracked; and when, in its despair,That rings, with faithful tongue, its=20= pious noteAppear to lift up from the lake;Not so much of place as of=20= renewed hope,The pain of being born into matter. ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C79CB0.C8862480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Only a whiter absence to my mind,
To follow in the path of=20= their brief blossoming
Not daring to oppose
Left and right, and far=20= ahead in the dusk.
I might have happily lived some other=20= childhood.
How bittersweet it is, on winter's night,
Seen. What you=20= know is only manifest
Toward the still dab of white that=20= oscillates
Will sound, then the Lord's face will luminesce
Green=20= lilac buds appear that won't survive
The surge of swirling wind=20= defines
At San Biagio, in the most intense room
Amid the gloom,=20= there, on the pole, stands black
Sits at the limit of a kind of=20= world
My soul lies cracked; and when, in its despair,
That rings,=20= with faithful tongue, its pious note
Appear to lift up from the=20= lake;
Not so much of place as of renewed hope,
The pain of being=20= born into matter.
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(Exim 4.43) id 1Hqai0-0002uj-6p; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:11:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqahy-0002qy-Tj for ipfix@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:11:51 -0400 Received: from odd-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.119] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqahy-0006WP-CG for ipfix@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:11:50 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4MKBnX17791; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.58.48.3] ([10.58.48.3]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4MKBlW00961; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46534E81.1000702@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:45 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Trammell Subject: Re: [IPFIX] feedback on draft-ietf-ipfix-biflow-03.txt References: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> <46447477.7010508@cert.org> In-Reply-To: <46447477.7010508@cert.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 825e642946eda55cd9bc654a36dab8c2 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0320730980==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0320730980== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070308020900000207010602" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070308020900000207010602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, [sorry for the delay. see inline] > Benoit, > > Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're > presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be > submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issues > raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inline, > below: > > Benoit Claise wrote: > >> - "Note that, for IANA-registered Information >> Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model >> [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by >> Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destination >> Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names begin >> with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific >> information elements follow these conventions, as well." >> -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3 >> > > True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficult > given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2. > defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key > Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in the > context of biflows... How should we address this at this point? > You convinced me that changing [IPFIX-INFO] is not ideal as it introduced new concepts. We could fine workarounds for it but basically I'm fine with leaving the text in your draft. One small comment though. In order to double-check this issue, I was looking for the definitions of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key Fields" (since there are capitalized), and I could not find them... You should define them, or use "source/destination Unidirectional Key Fields", or find another workaround. Regards, Benoit. > Regards, > > Brian > > --------------070308020900000207010602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian,

[sorry for the delay. see inline]
Benoit,

Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're
presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be
submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issues
raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inline,
below:

Benoit Claise wrote:
  
-  "Note that, for IANA-registered Information
    Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model
    [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by
    Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destination
    Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names begin
    with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific
    information elements follow these conventions, as well."
    -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3
    

True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficult
given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2.
defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key
Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in the
context of biflows... How should we address this at this point?
You convinced me that changing [IPFIX-INFO] is not ideal as it introduced new concepts.  We could fine workarounds for it but basically I'm fine with leaving the text in your draft.
One small comment though. In order to double-check this issue, I was looking for the definitions of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key Fields" (since there are capitalized), and I could not find them... You should define them, or use "source/destination Unidirectional Key Fields", or find another workaround.

Regards, Benoit.
Regards,

Brian

--------------070308020900000207010602-- --===============0320730980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============0320730980==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 22 16:12:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqai0-0002uj-6p; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:11:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqahy-0002qy-Tj for ipfix@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:11:51 -0400 Received: from odd-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.119] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqahy-0006WP-CG for ipfix@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:11:50 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4MKBnX17791; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.58.48.3] ([10.58.48.3]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4MKBlW00961; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46534E81.1000702@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:45 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Trammell Subject: Re: [IPFIX] feedback on draft-ietf-ipfix-biflow-03.txt References: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> <46447477.7010508@cert.org> In-Reply-To: <46447477.7010508@cert.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 825e642946eda55cd9bc654a36dab8c2 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0320730980==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0320730980== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070308020900000207010602" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070308020900000207010602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, [sorry for the delay. see inline] > Benoit, > > Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're > presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be > submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issues > raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inline, > below: > > Benoit Claise wrote: > >> - "Note that, for IANA-registered Information >> Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model >> [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by >> Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destination >> Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names begin >> with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific >> information elements follow these conventions, as well." >> -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3 >> > > True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficult > given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2. > defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key > Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in the > context of biflows... How should we address this at this point? > You convinced me that changing [IPFIX-INFO] is not ideal as it introduced new concepts. We could fine workarounds for it but basically I'm fine with leaving the text in your draft. One small comment though. In order to double-check this issue, I was looking for the definitions of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key Fields" (since there are capitalized), and I could not find them... You should define them, or use "source/destination Unidirectional Key Fields", or find another workaround. Regards, Benoit. > Regards, > > Brian > > --------------070308020900000207010602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian,

[sorry for the delay. see inline]
Benoit,

Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're
presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be
submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issues
raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inline,
below:

Benoit Claise wrote:
  
-  "Note that, for IANA-registered Information
    Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model
    [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by
    Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destination
    Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names begin
    with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific
    information elements follow these conventions, as well."
    -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3
    

True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficult
given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2.
defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key
Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in the
context of biflows... How should we address this at this point?
You convinced me that changing [IPFIX-INFO] is not ideal as it introduced new concepts.  We could fine workarounds for it but basically I'm fine with leaving the text in your draft.
One small comment though. In order to double-check this issue, I was looking for the definitions of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key Fields" (since there are capitalized), and I could not find them... You should define them, or use "source/destination Unidirectional Key Fields", or find another workaround.

Regards, Benoit.
Regards,

Brian

--------------070308020900000207010602-- --===============0320730980== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============0320730980==-- From externalizing@flexmetergloves.com Wed May 23 01:54:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqjnu-0001rT-GX for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:54:34 -0400 Received: from user-387gni4.cable.mindspring.com ([208.120.94.68] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqjnt-0005B0-KP for ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:54:33 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c79cfe$1f0e3700$0100007f@localhost> From: "Lester Bishop" To: Subject: Excellent prlce S0FT ware Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 01:54:36 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.150 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Nu Photoshop titles released on May 23 09:40:01 MSK 2007 Adobe Photoshop CS3 89$ Symantec Norton 360 29$ Microsoft Office 2007 79$ Microsoft Vista Business 79$ Adobe Acrobat 8 Pro 79$ Adobe Flash CS3 Pro 59$ Windows XP Pro +SP2 49$ Adobe Premiere 2.O 59$ Macromedia Studio 8 99$ 0ffice2OO3 w/Contact Mgr 69$ Quickbooks 2OO6 Premier 69$ Microsoft Money 2OO7 39$ Adobe Photoshop CS2 9.O 69$ Autodesk Autocad 2OO7 129$ Corel Grafix Suite X3 59$ Adobe Creative Suite CS2 149$ Adobe Illustrator CS2 59$ Microsoft Office XP PR0 49$ Adobe Dreamweaver CS3 59$ McAfee Internet Sec. 7 29$ Norton Antivirus Corp. 29$ Mac software 49$ http://creoemon.com/?CRhrQ63484FsokenrtjC67641ZuGPvpZDRW76594YGxgSxzPqW92619yOdSDPhotoshop But are you pleased, Jane? 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"But supposing," said I, "that a man should prefer one wife or three?" "It is impossible," he said; "it is as inconceivable as that two and one should make five, or that the human eye should see a Straight Line." I would have interrupted him; but he proceeded as follows: hands, wondering if anything would EVER happen in a natural way thought it beneath him to lay his private actions open to the paper. "Now he has no longer need of an emperor. He is with God, and "Are you with me, Hewlett?" he whispered. ``Mr. Darcy!'' repeated Elizabeth, in utter amazement. passing through the insurgent country to the Bavarian lines and re- chance." us but the chance of a horrible death, we could sit following the so much as this.'' The clergyman became as white as a sheet and sank back in his "I can quite believe that, M. Lacroix," I answered. "You have looked nothing, only grinned in evil joy, and Jack closed his eyes again with There was no sign of life in all that desolate country. From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 05:52:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqnVa-0004T0-SY; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:51:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqnVZ-0004Sv-IQ for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:51:53 -0400 Received: from odd-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.119] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqnVY-0001pU-VQ for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:51:53 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4N9pqR09526; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.61.81.17] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4370.cisco.com [10.61.81.17]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4N9pkW27937; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:47 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerhard Muenz Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com> <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> In-Reply-To: <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0697921782==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0697921782== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060602000905050806000802" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060602000905050806000802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by av-tac-bru.cisco.com id l4N9pqR09526 Gerhard, all, What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about=20 for more than 6 months now. Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the=20 idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-st= ream-00.txt=20 fully explaining the idea We also posted an IPR: see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed=20 in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." Alternatively, directly look up=20 http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct= p-stream-00.txt I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were=20 posted. Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the=20 functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset=20 draft=20 (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the=20 new charter discussion in Chicago Regards, Benoit. > Hi Elisa, Benoit, > > Boschi, Elisa wrote: > =20 >>> 6.1: >>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>> >>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>> reliably. >>> >>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect s= ince >>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of = SCTP! >>> There is a side-effect: >>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the export= ed >>> data." >>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>> =20 >> stream! >> =20 >> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >> concerns... more about this in the next days >> =20 > > What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data > Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? > > I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It se= ems > that the sentence > > Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP > stream zero. > > from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP whe= n > reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually, > it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can > be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect o= f > a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line > blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. > > Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream fo= r > each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding > Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives > before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Dat= a > Sets in partially reliable messages. > > Am I missing the point here? > > Regards, > Gerhard > > =20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > _______________________________________________ > IPFIX mailing list > IPFIX@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix > =20 --------------060602000905050806000802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerhard, all,

What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about for more than 6 months now.
Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt fully explaining the idea
We also posted an IPR: see https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
Alternatively, directly look up http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were posted.

Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the new charter discussion in Chicago

Regards, Benoit.
Hi Elisa, Benoit,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
  
6.1:
The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:

   Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
   stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
   reliably.

I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP!
There is a side-effect:
   "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
   data."
This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
      
stream!
    
6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
concerns... more about this in the next days
    

What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data
Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?

I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It seems
that the sentence

    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
    stream zero.

from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.

Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
Sets in partially reliable messages.

Am I missing the point here?

Regards,
Gerhard

  

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

--------------060602000905050806000802-- --===============0697921782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============0697921782==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 05:52:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqnVa-0004T0-SY; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:51:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqnVZ-0004Sv-IQ for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:51:53 -0400 Received: from odd-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.119] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqnVY-0001pU-VQ for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:51:53 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4N9pqR09526; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.61.81.17] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4370.cisco.com [10.61.81.17]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4N9pkW27937; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:51:47 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerhard Muenz Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com> <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> In-Reply-To: <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0697921782==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0697921782== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060602000905050806000802" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060602000905050806000802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by av-tac-bru.cisco.com id l4N9pqR09526 Gerhard, all, What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about=20 for more than 6 months now. Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the=20 idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-st= ream-00.txt=20 fully explaining the idea We also posted an IPR: see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed=20 in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." Alternatively, directly look up=20 http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct= p-stream-00.txt I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were=20 posted. Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the=20 functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset=20 draft=20 (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the=20 new charter discussion in Chicago Regards, Benoit. > Hi Elisa, Benoit, > > Boschi, Elisa wrote: > =20 >>> 6.1: >>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>> >>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>> reliably. >>> >>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect s= ince >>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of = SCTP! >>> There is a side-effect: >>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the export= ed >>> data." >>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>> =20 >> stream! >> =20 >> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >> concerns... more about this in the next days >> =20 > > What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data > Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? > > I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It se= ems > that the sentence > > Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP > stream zero. > > from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP whe= n > reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually, > it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can > be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect o= f > a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line > blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. > > Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream fo= r > each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding > Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives > before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Dat= a > Sets in partially reliable messages. > > Am I missing the point here? > > Regards, > Gerhard > > =20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > _______________________________________________ > IPFIX mailing list > IPFIX@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix > =20 --------------060602000905050806000802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerhard, all,

What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about for more than 6 months now.
Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt fully explaining the idea
We also posted an IPR: see https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
Alternatively, directly look up http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were posted.

Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the new charter discussion in Chicago

Regards, Benoit.
Hi Elisa, Benoit,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
  
6.1:
The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:

   Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
   stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
   reliably.

I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP!
There is a side-effect:
   "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
   data."
This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
      
stream!
    
6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
concerns... more about this in the next days
    

What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data
Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?

I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It seems
that the sentence

    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
    stream zero.

from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.

Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
Sets in partially reliable messages.

Am I missing the point here?

Regards,
Gerhard

  

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

--------------060602000905050806000802-- --===============0697921782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============0697921782==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 06:08:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqnm2-0002Rs-FD; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:08:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqnm0-0002Rk-Vq for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:08:52 -0400 Received: from smtp01.bis.na.blackberry.com ([216.9.248.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqnlz-0005X4-KO for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:08:52 -0400 Message-ID: <2137839979-1179914927-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-393953731-@bwe002-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com><4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> Sensitivity: Normal Importance: Normal To: "Benoit Claise" , "Gerhard Muenz" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP From: carter@qosient.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:07:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: carter@qosient.com List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1354590172==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org --===============1354590172== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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23 May 2007 06:08:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqnm0-0002Rk-Vq for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:08:52 -0400 Received: from smtp01.bis.na.blackberry.com ([216.9.248.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqnlz-0005X4-KO for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:08:52 -0400 Message-ID: <2137839979-1179914927-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-393953731-@bwe002-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com><4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> Sensitivity: Normal Importance: Normal To: "Benoit Claise" , "Gerhard Muenz" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP From: carter@qosient.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:07:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: carter@qosient.com List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1354590172==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org --===============1354590172== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" U291bmRzIGxpa2UgdXNpbmcgVENQIGlzbid0IHN1Y2ggYSBiYWQgaWRlYSBhZnRlciBhbGwhISEh ISEhDQoNCkNhcnRlcg0KDQpDYXJ0ZXIgQnVsbGFyZA0KUW9TaWVudCBMTEMNCjE1MCBFLiA1N3Ro IFN0cmVldCBTdWl0ZSAxMkQNCk5ldyBZb3JrLCBOZXcgWW9yayAxMDAyMg0KKzEgMjEyIDU4OC05 MTMzIFBob25lDQorMSAyMTIgNTg4LTkxMzQgRmF4ICANCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdl LS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEJlbm9pdCBDbGFpc2UgPGJjbGFpc2VAY2lzY28uY29tPg0KRGF0ZTogV2Vk LCAyMyBNYXkgMjAwNyAxMTo1MTo0NyANClRvOkdlcmhhcmQgTXVlbnogPG11ZW56QGluZm9ybWF0 aWsudW5pLXR1ZWJpbmdlbi5kZT4NCkNjOiJQZXRlciBMZWkgXChwZXRlcmxlaVwpIiA8cGV0ZXJs 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1354590172==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 08:19:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqpon-0005Rb-2A; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqpoS-0005Go-OH; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:32 -0400 Received: from purgatory.unfix.org ([2001:7b8:20d:0:290:27ff:fe24:c19f]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqpoR-0005IN-Q6; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:32 -0400 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B8E140C0B2; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:19:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46543151.4000908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:19:29 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Putting IPR on IPFIX while the target of IPFIX is to in effect open NetFlow (Was: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP) References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com><4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> <2137839979-1179914927-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-393953731-@bwe002-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> In-Reply-To: <2137839979-1179914927-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-393953731-@bwe002-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/3285/Wed May 23 07:39:59 2007 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: standards-ipr@cisco.com, "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ietf@ietf.org, ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1711459131==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1711459131== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [..] Benoit Claise wrote: > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about = for more than 6 months now. > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the i= dea, we worked on the creation of a new draft > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp= -stream-00.txt: fully explaining the idea > We also posted an IPR: see https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_lis= t.cgi: .=20 > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claime= d in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." > Alternatively, directly look up http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ip= r-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt: =20 (The above long formatted lines are not mine, 72 is a nice limit FYI) Sorry to be blunt, but what exactly is the point again of 'opening up NetFlow' if there is going to be IPR stuff being smacked upon IPFIX and thus encumbering it? And no the "we don't sue when you don't sue" sillyness is not 'open'. If there is IPR on this part of IPFIX then it MUST never become part of the standard of IPFIX that is to be the IETF version of NetFlow. The "Disclosure" http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct= p-stream-00.txt doesn't contain *ANY* details on what exactly is IPR'd and what not. So do we just have to assume that everything in that draft is encumbered? I also have to note that the existing IPFIX capable collectors actually can't care so much about what exactly gets delivered and how and in which stream exactly the IPFIX packets are being sent, I am very sure that the collectors that already exist are automatically prior art to what is described in the draft document, therefor nullifying at least half of the draft. I am sincerely wondering _why_ Cisco is first going the long route of trying to get an IETF, and thus widely open accepted, standard form of NetFlow, thus making all kinds of vendors, who are still reluctant to use NetFlow because of IPR nonsense, happy and then suddenly, after a long time of getting people to accept it as a standard means, still yet again go the IPR route to go back to square zero: no vendor will accept IPFIX, and there will be various different kinds of "NetFlow" for doing traffic, and other kinds of, metering. Please, please, please, come up with something which actually is original, get a patent for that and make your lawyers happy sueing each other over those things. Don't go back to encumber something that is actually starting to get adopted by a lot of vendors. Greets, Jeroen (before anybody screams murder, of course like anything IETFish should be, this is my private & personal opinion bla bla...) --------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkZUMVEuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I/ymAJ9lGR/g3Hd7vmieXYQtPV35/+Nf awCfexOv+AVh5MPZxLDVOuafq31vQ68= =U3Uu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839-- --===============1711459131== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1711459131==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 08:19:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqpon-0005Rb-2A; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqpoS-0005Go-OH; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:32 -0400 Received: from purgatory.unfix.org ([2001:7b8:20d:0:290:27ff:fe24:c19f]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqpoR-0005IN-Q6; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:32 -0400 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B8E140C0B2; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:19:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46543151.4000908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:19:29 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Putting IPR on IPFIX while the target of IPFIX is to in effect open NetFlow (Was: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP) References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com><4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> <2137839979-1179914927-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-393953731-@bwe002-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> In-Reply-To: <2137839979-1179914927-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-393953731-@bwe002-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/3285/Wed May 23 07:39:59 2007 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: standards-ipr@cisco.com, "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ietf@ietf.org, ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1711459131==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1711459131== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [..] Benoit Claise wrote: > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about = for more than 6 months now. > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the i= dea, we worked on the creation of a new draft > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp= -stream-00.txt: fully explaining the idea > We also posted an IPR: see https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_lis= t.cgi: .=20 > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claime= d in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." > Alternatively, directly look up http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ip= r-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt: =20 (The above long formatted lines are not mine, 72 is a nice limit FYI) Sorry to be blunt, but what exactly is the point again of 'opening up NetFlow' if there is going to be IPR stuff being smacked upon IPFIX and thus encumbering it? And no the "we don't sue when you don't sue" sillyness is not 'open'. If there is IPR on this part of IPFIX then it MUST never become part of the standard of IPFIX that is to be the IETF version of NetFlow. The "Disclosure" http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct= p-stream-00.txt doesn't contain *ANY* details on what exactly is IPR'd and what not. So do we just have to assume that everything in that draft is encumbered? I also have to note that the existing IPFIX capable collectors actually can't care so much about what exactly gets delivered and how and in which stream exactly the IPFIX packets are being sent, I am very sure that the collectors that already exist are automatically prior art to what is described in the draft document, therefor nullifying at least half of the draft. I am sincerely wondering _why_ Cisco is first going the long route of trying to get an IETF, and thus widely open accepted, standard form of NetFlow, thus making all kinds of vendors, who are still reluctant to use NetFlow because of IPR nonsense, happy and then suddenly, after a long time of getting people to accept it as a standard means, still yet again go the IPR route to go back to square zero: no vendor will accept IPFIX, and there will be various different kinds of "NetFlow" for doing traffic, and other kinds of, metering. Please, please, please, come up with something which actually is original, get a patent for that and make your lawyers happy sueing each other over those things. Don't go back to encumber something that is actually starting to get adopted by a lot of vendors. Greets, Jeroen (before anybody screams murder, of course like anything IETFish should be, this is my private & personal opinion bla bla...) --------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkZUMVEuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I/ymAJ9lGR/g3Hd7vmieXYQtPV35/+Nf awCfexOv+AVh5MPZxLDVOuafq31vQ68= =U3Uu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5F2D85E2906B968D34CCC839-- --===============1711459131== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1711459131==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 10:01:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqrOa-0004YR-ML; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqrOY-0004YC-OZ for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:54 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org ([192.88.209.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqrOX-0002ot-G0 for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:54 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/2.24) with ESMTP id l4NE0ond016665 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:50 -0400 Received: (from defang@localhost) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit/1.1) id l4NDxgr5016524 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:59:42 -0400 Received: from villemus.indigo.cert.org (villemus.indigo.cert.org [10.60.10.5]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (envelope-sender ) (MIMEDefang) with ESMTP id l4NDxgLR016522; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.237.253.211] (vpn-10-25-4-20.remote.cert.org [10.25.4.20]) by villemus.indigo.cert.org (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/2.66) with ESMTP id l4NDxgaS019803; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:59:42 -0400 Message-ID: <46544886.5040104@cert.org> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:58:30 -0400 From: Brian Trammell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [IPFIX] feedback on draft-ietf-ipfix-biflow-03.txt References: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> <46447477.7010508@cert.org> <46534E81.1000702@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <46534E81.1000702@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.2 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 required=5 checker=SpamAssassin version=3.001008 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2075089299==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============2075089299== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit, Good point. Indeed, I thought we _had_ defined Source Key Fields and Destination Key Fields. We've made the suggested change in the forthcoming -05 rev of the draft. Thanks, Brian Benoit Claise wrote: > Brian, >=20 > [sorry for the delay. see inline] >> Benoit, >> >> Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're >> presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be >> submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issue= s >> raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inlin= e, >> below: >> >> Benoit Claise wrote: >> =20 >>> - "Note that, for IANA-registered Information >>> Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model >>> [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by >>> Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destina= tion >>> Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names be= gin >>> with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific >>> information elements follow these conventions, as well." >>> -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3 >>> =20 >> >> True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficul= t >> given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2. >> defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key= >> Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in th= e >> context of biflows... How should we address this at this point? >> =20 > You convinced me that changing [IPFIX-INFO] is not ideal as it > introduced new concepts. We could fine workarounds for it but basicall= y > I'm fine with leaving the text in your draft. > One small comment though. In order to double-check this issue, I was > looking for the definitions of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key= > Fields" (since there are capitalized), and I could not find them... You= > should define them, or use "source/destination Unidirectional Key > Fields", or find another workaround. >=20 > Regards, Benoit. >> Regards, >> >> Brian >> >> =20 >=20 --------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGVEiK4/8LCZ4pwvYRAjjYAKDy2o3cgtXRj6D2fENWHBod+CwQDgCglMwA g1jQNdGiq13VMIp1Wt0hcN0= =30tO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B-- --===============2075089299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============2075089299==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 10:01:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqrOa-0004YR-ML; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqrOY-0004YC-OZ for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:54 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org ([192.88.209.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HqrOX-0002ot-G0 for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:54 -0400 Received: from franclinus.red.cert.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/2.24) with ESMTP id l4NE0ond016665 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:00:50 -0400 Received: (from defang@localhost) by franclinus.red.cert.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit/1.1) id l4NDxgr5016524 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:59:42 -0400 Received: from villemus.indigo.cert.org (villemus.indigo.cert.org [10.60.10.5]) by franclinus.red.cert.org (envelope-sender ) (MIMEDefang) with ESMTP id l4NDxgLR016522; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.237.253.211] (vpn-10-25-4-20.remote.cert.org [10.25.4.20]) by villemus.indigo.cert.org (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/2.66) with ESMTP id l4NDxgaS019803; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:59:42 -0400 Message-ID: <46544886.5040104@cert.org> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:58:30 -0400 From: Brian Trammell User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [IPFIX] feedback on draft-ietf-ipfix-biflow-03.txt References: <45FF24F1.1060702@cisco.com> <46447477.7010508@cert.org> <46534E81.1000702@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <46534E81.1000702@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.2 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 required=5 checker=SpamAssassin version=3.001008 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2075089299==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============2075089299== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit, Good point. Indeed, I thought we _had_ defined Source Key Fields and Destination Key Fields. We've made the suggested change in the forthcoming -05 rev of the draft. Thanks, Brian Benoit Claise wrote: > Brian, >=20 > [sorry for the delay. see inline] >> Benoit, >> >> Thanks for your IETF last call comments on the biflow draft; we're >> presently working to address them in a revision -05 which will be >> submitted shortly. We believe this revision will address all the issue= s >> raised. However, we do have one question about a specific issue, inlin= e, >> below: >> >> Benoit Claise wrote: >> =20 >>> - "Note that, for IANA-registered Information >>> Elements or those defined by the IPFIX Information Model >>> [I-D.ietf-ipfix-info], Source Key Fields are represented by >>> Information Elements whose names begin with "source", and Destina= tion >>> Key Fields are represented by Information Elements whose names be= gin >>> with "destination"; it is recommended that vendor-specific >>> information elements follow these conventions, as well." >>> -> this should really be part of [IPFIX-INFO] in section 2.3 >>> =20 >> >> True; however, 1. changing section 2.3 at this point would be difficul= t >> given that the information model is in the RFC Editor Queue and 2. >> defining the conventions this way requires a definition of "Source Key= >> Fields" and "Destination Key Fields", which make sense primarily in th= e >> context of biflows... How should we address this at this point? >> =20 > You convinced me that changing [IPFIX-INFO] is not ideal as it > introduced new concepts. We could fine workarounds for it but basicall= y > I'm fine with leaving the text in your draft. > One small comment though. In order to double-check this issue, I was > looking for the definitions of "Source Key Fields" and "Destination Key= > Fields" (since there are capitalized), and I could not find them... You= > should define them, or use "source/destination Unidirectional Key > Fields", or find another workaround. >=20 > Regards, Benoit. >> Regards, >> >> Brian >> >> =20 >=20 --------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGVEiK4/8LCZ4pwvYRAjjYAKDy2o3cgtXRj6D2fENWHBod+CwQDgCglMwA g1jQNdGiq13VMIp1Wt0hcN0= =30tO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6AA608A6AADA46775510605B-- --===============2075089299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============2075089299==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 10:49:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqs9h-0003Nx-EP; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqs9g-0003Nr-Qd for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:36 -0400 Received: from mx06.uni-tuebingen.de ([134.2.3.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqs9f-0006hS-8g for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:36 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rouen.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.152]) by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4NEnRWm011697; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:49:27 +0200 Message-ID: <4654546E.70705@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:49:18 +0200 From: Gerhard Muenz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com> <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir MailGate (version: 2.1.2-11; AVE: 7.4.0.27; VDF: 6.38.1.184; host: mx06) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de id l4NEnRWm011697 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93e7fb8fef2e780414389440f367c879 Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Benoit, Elisa, all, Apparently, my assumption was right: There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the same stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol. I made this comment about the proposed usage of SCTP for IPFIX exactly two months ago. So thank you for the late answer. Yet, my comment concretely refered to the protocol draft and the implementation guidelines, and I do not understand why we need to postpone this issue to future WG activities. What I've heard, few to no people actually implemented IPFIX over PR-SCTP using multiple streams. At least, this was not tested at the interop, was it? This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier. Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes: 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus avoiding to specify something useless or confusing. 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as recommendations into the implementation guidelines. Regards, Gerhard Benoit Claise wrote: > Gerhard, all, >=20 > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about > for more than 6 months now. > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the > idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-= stream-00.txt > fully explaining the idea > We also posted an IPR: see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed > in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." > Alternatively, directly look up > http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-s= ctp-stream-00.txt >=20 > I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were > posted. >=20 > Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the > functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset > draft > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). > Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for th= e > new charter discussion in Chicago >=20 > Regards, Benoit. >> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >> >> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >> =20 >>>> 6.1: >>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>> >>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>> reliably. >>>> >>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect = since >>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of= SCTP! >>>> There is a side-effect: >>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expor= ted >>>> data." >>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>> =20 >>> stream! >>> =20 >>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>> =20 >> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Dat= a >> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >> >> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It s= eems >> that the sentence >> >> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >> stream zero. >> >> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP wh= en >> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually, >> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can >> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect = of >> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >> >> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream f= or >> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Da= ta >> Sets in partially reliable messages. >> >> Am I missing the point here? >> >> Regards, >> Gerhard >> >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IPFIX mailing list >> IPFIX@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >> =20 >=20 --=20 Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz Computer Networks and Internet Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science University of Tuebingen Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 29-70534 Fax: +49 7071 29-5220 E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de WWW: http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 10:49:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqs9h-0003Nx-EP; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqs9g-0003Nr-Qd for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:36 -0400 Received: from mx06.uni-tuebingen.de ([134.2.3.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqs9f-0006hS-8g for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:36 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rouen.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.152]) by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4NEnRWm011697; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:49:27 +0200 Message-ID: <4654546E.70705@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:49:18 +0200 From: Gerhard Muenz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com> <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir MailGate (version: 2.1.2-11; AVE: 7.4.0.27; VDF: 6.38.1.184; host: mx06) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mx06.uni-tuebingen.de id l4NEnRWm011697 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93e7fb8fef2e780414389440f367c879 Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Benoit, Elisa, all, Apparently, my assumption was right: There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the same stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol. I made this comment about the proposed usage of SCTP for IPFIX exactly two months ago. So thank you for the late answer. Yet, my comment concretely refered to the protocol draft and the implementation guidelines, and I do not understand why we need to postpone this issue to future WG activities. What I've heard, few to no people actually implemented IPFIX over PR-SCTP using multiple streams. At least, this was not tested at the interop, was it? This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier. Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes: 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus avoiding to specify something useless or confusing. 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as recommendations into the implementation guidelines. Regards, Gerhard Benoit Claise wrote: > Gerhard, all, >=20 > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about > for more than 6 months now. > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the > idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-= stream-00.txt > fully explaining the idea > We also posted an IPR: see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed > in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." > Alternatively, directly look up > http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-s= ctp-stream-00.txt >=20 > I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were > posted. >=20 > Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the > functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset > draft > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). > Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for th= e > new charter discussion in Chicago >=20 > Regards, Benoit. >> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >> >> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >> =20 >>>> 6.1: >>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>> >>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>> reliably. >>>> >>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect = since >>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of= SCTP! >>>> There is a side-effect: >>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expor= ted >>>> data." >>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>> =20 >>> stream! >>> =20 >>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>> =20 >> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Dat= a >> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >> >> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It s= eems >> that the sentence >> >> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >> stream zero. >> >> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP wh= en >> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually, >> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can >> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect = of >> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >> >> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream f= or >> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Da= ta >> Sets in partially reliable messages. >> >> Am I missing the point here? >> >> Regards, >> Gerhard >> >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IPFIX mailing list >> IPFIX@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >> =20 >=20 --=20 Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz Computer Networks and Internet Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science University of Tuebingen Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 29-70534 Fax: +49 7071 29-5220 E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de WWW: http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 12:30:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqtik-0003mW-3F; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:29:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqtii-0003mR-Vk for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:29:52 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com ([194.36.128.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqtih-00006d-It for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:29:52 -0400 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1179937790-145100260000-urGyNO X-Barracuda-URL: http://mhd-bar.hitachi-eu.com:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-Connect: primary.hitachi-eu.net[193.39.225.234] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1179937790 X-ASG-Whitelist: Client Received: from mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com (primary.hitachi-eu.net [193.39.225.234]) by gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id 56A935842A for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com (Not Verified[193.39.227.52]) by mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com with MailMarshal (v6, 1, 8, 2172) id ; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:29:42 +0000 Received: from mhdexcb.adhel.hitachi-eu.com ([193.39.227.47]) by MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:49 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:49 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP Thread-Index: AcedVfynLRPfpFnDRXSD2E/3MaZAcg== From: "Boschi, Elisa" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 16:29:49.0700 (UTC) FILETIME=[955D8C40:01C79D57] X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by HEU SPAM Firewall - MHD at hitachi-eu.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 231d7929942febf3be8fd5be2903302f Cc: peterlei@cisco.com, ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1836251993==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1836251993== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit, Gerhard, I'd invite you both at having a look at the current version of=20 the Guidelines before proposing to add something wich has been=20 already addressed. Also I have a problem in understanding what exactly you're trying to=20 patent or where the new idea is. Is it as you say in your -00 draft=20 (dated 30th April 2007) in section 4: "Each (Options) Template and its associated Data Records would be sent on a unique SCTP stream. The (Options) Template would still be sent reliably, while the level of reliability for the Data Records would be chosen depending on the specific application."=20 Please note than that draft-ietf-implementation-guidelines-00.txt,=20 section 7.1 (SCTP), paragraph 5 said: "A more complex device might allocate one data stream per Template ID, so that data pertaining to each Template ID is transferred quite independently." and this has been published on the * 30th of August 2006 * !!=20 (almost 9 months ago!) The current version of the Guidelines (I refer to -03 published on the=20 26th of April, even if -04 has been submitted today) specifies: "An SCTP association may contain multiple streams. SCTP associations used to transport IPFIX Messages MUST contain at least two streams. Messages containing Templates Sets and Options Template Sets, and Template Withdraw Messages, SHOULD be sent on stream 0. Messages containing Data Sets SHOULD be sent on SCTP streams other than stream 0. This implies that, at minimum, stream 0 is used for Templates and stream 1 is used for Data Sets. The Collecting Process MUST be able to process any Message received on any stream. Multiple SCTP streams are useful for avoiding head-of-line blocking, thereby minimising end to end delay from the Exporting Process to the Collecting Process. Example applications for this feature would be using one SCTP stream per Observation Domain, one stream per type of data (or Template ID), or one stream for flow data and one for metadata." The only reason we're keeping the recommendation to use stream 0 for=20 templates is that it is specified in the IPFIX protocol, which at this=20 point cannot be changed. Regards, Elisa P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second=20 interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held=20 in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)=20 to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as=20 specified in the protocol. Benoit Claise wrote: > Gerhard, all, >=20 > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about=20 > for more than 6 months now. > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the=20 > idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-st= ream-00.txt=20 > fully explaining the idea > We also posted an IPR: see=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR = claimed=20 > in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." > Alternatively, directly look up=20 > = http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct= p-stream-00.txt >=20 > I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were=20 > posted. >=20 > Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the=20 > functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset = > draft=20 > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). > Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for = the=20 > new charter discussion in Chicago >=20 > Regards, Benoit. >> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >> >> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >> =20 >>>> 6.1: >>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>> >>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the = SCTP >>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>> reliably. >>>> >>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect = since >>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages = of SCTP! >>>> There is a side-effect: >>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the = exported >>>> data." >>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>> =20 >>> stream! >>> =20 >>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>> =20 >> >> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding = Data >> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >> >> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It = seems >> that the sentence >> >> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >> stream zero. >> >> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP = when >> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. = Actually, >> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message = can >> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect = of >> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >> >> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream = for >> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, = Data >> Sets in partially reliable messages. >> >> Am I missing the point here? >> >> Regards, >> Gerhard >> >> =20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IPFIX mailing list >> IPFIX@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >> =20 >=20 >=20 > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IPFIX mailing list > IPFIX@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix ------_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP

Benoit, Gerhard,

I'd invite you both at having a look at the current version of
the Guidelines before proposing to add something wich has been
already addressed.

Also I have a problem in understanding what exactly you're trying to
patent or where the new idea is. Is it as you say in your -00 draft
(dated 30th April 2007) in section 4:

"Each (Options) Template and its associated Data Records would = be
 sent on a unique SCTP stream. The (Options) Template would = still
 be sent reliably, while the level of reliability for the Data
 Records would be chosen depending on the specific = application."


Please note than that draft-ietf-implementation-guidelines-00.txt,
section 7.1 (SCTP), paragraph 5 said:


"A more complex device might allocate one data stream per = Template
 ID, so that data pertaining to each Template ID is transferred = quite
 independently."

and this has been published on the * 30th of August 2006 * !!
(almost 9 months ago!)


The current version of the Guidelines (I refer to -03 published on = the
26th of April, even if -04 has been submitted today) specifies:

   "An SCTP association may contain multiple = streams.  SCTP associations
   used to transport IPFIX Messages MUST contain at least two = streams.
   Messages containing Templates Sets and Options Template = Sets, and
   Template Withdraw Messages, SHOULD be sent on stream = 0.  Messages
   containing Data Sets SHOULD be sent on SCTP streams other = than stream
   0.  This implies that, at minimum, stream 0 is used = for Templates and
   stream 1 is used for Data Sets.

   The Collecting Process MUST be able to process any Message = received
   on any stream.

   Multiple SCTP streams are useful for avoiding head-of-line = blocking,
   thereby minimising end to end delay from the Exporting = Process to the
   Collecting Process.  Example applications for this = feature would be
   using one SCTP stream per Observation Domain, one stream = per type of
   data (or Template ID), or one stream for flow data and one = for
   metadata."


The only reason we're keeping the recommendation to use stream 0 for
templates is that it is specified in the IPFIX protocol, which at = this
point cannot be changed.


Regards,
Elisa



P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second
interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held
in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)
to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as
specified in the protocol.



Benoit Claise wrote:
> Gerhard, all,
>
> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking = about
> for more than 6 months now.
> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed = the
> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipf= ix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> fully explaining the idea
> We also posted an IPR: see
> https://datatra= cker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about = IPR claimed
> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> Alternatively, directly look up
> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-cl= aise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
>
> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR = were
> posted.
>
> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP = reset
> draft
> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate = for the
> new charter discussion in Chicago
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>
>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>  
>>>> 6.1:
>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it = is:
>>>>
>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template = Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option = Template Sets MUST be sent
>>>>    reliably.
>>>>
>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important = implementation aspect since
>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main = advantages of SCTP!
>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>    "A simple system might use just = one data stream for all the exported
>>>>    data."
>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over = one reliable
>>>>      
>>> stream!
>>>    
>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should = address your
>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>    
>>
>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the = corresponding Data
>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>
>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on = PR-SCTP. It seems
>> that the sentence
>>
>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets = SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>     stream zero.
>>
>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of = PR-SCTP when
>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. = Actually,
>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one = message can
>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The = effect of
>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that = head-of-line
>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different = streams.
>>
>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate = stream for
>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the = corresponding
>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template = arrives
>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable = messages, Data
>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>
>> Am I missing the point here?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerhard
>>
>>  
>> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------<= BR> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>  
>
>
> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------<= BR> >
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

------_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3-- --===============1836251993== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1836251993==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 12:30:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqtik-0003mW-3F; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:29:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqtii-0003mR-Vk for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:29:52 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com ([194.36.128.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqtih-00006d-It for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:29:52 -0400 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1179937790-145100260000-urGyNO X-Barracuda-URL: http://mhd-bar.hitachi-eu.com:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-Connect: primary.hitachi-eu.net[193.39.225.234] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1179937790 X-ASG-Whitelist: Client Received: from mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com (primary.hitachi-eu.net [193.39.225.234]) by gatekeeper.hitachi-eu.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id 56A935842A for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com (Not Verified[193.39.227.52]) by mhd-mta-int.hitachi-eu.com with MailMarshal (v6, 1, 8, 2172) id ; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:29:42 +0000 Received: from mhdexcb.adhel.hitachi-eu.com ([193.39.227.47]) by MHDEXC99.adhel.hitachi-eu.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:49 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:49 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP Thread-Index: AcedVfynLRPfpFnDRXSD2E/3MaZAcg== From: "Boschi, Elisa" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2007 16:29:49.0700 (UTC) FILETIME=[955D8C40:01C79D57] X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by HEU SPAM Firewall - MHD at hitachi-eu.com X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 231d7929942febf3be8fd5be2903302f Cc: peterlei@cisco.com, ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1836251993==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1836251993== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benoit, Gerhard, I'd invite you both at having a look at the current version of=20 the Guidelines before proposing to add something wich has been=20 already addressed. Also I have a problem in understanding what exactly you're trying to=20 patent or where the new idea is. Is it as you say in your -00 draft=20 (dated 30th April 2007) in section 4: "Each (Options) Template and its associated Data Records would be sent on a unique SCTP stream. The (Options) Template would still be sent reliably, while the level of reliability for the Data Records would be chosen depending on the specific application."=20 Please note than that draft-ietf-implementation-guidelines-00.txt,=20 section 7.1 (SCTP), paragraph 5 said: "A more complex device might allocate one data stream per Template ID, so that data pertaining to each Template ID is transferred quite independently." and this has been published on the * 30th of August 2006 * !!=20 (almost 9 months ago!) The current version of the Guidelines (I refer to -03 published on the=20 26th of April, even if -04 has been submitted today) specifies: "An SCTP association may contain multiple streams. SCTP associations used to transport IPFIX Messages MUST contain at least two streams. Messages containing Templates Sets and Options Template Sets, and Template Withdraw Messages, SHOULD be sent on stream 0. Messages containing Data Sets SHOULD be sent on SCTP streams other than stream 0. This implies that, at minimum, stream 0 is used for Templates and stream 1 is used for Data Sets. The Collecting Process MUST be able to process any Message received on any stream. Multiple SCTP streams are useful for avoiding head-of-line blocking, thereby minimising end to end delay from the Exporting Process to the Collecting Process. Example applications for this feature would be using one SCTP stream per Observation Domain, one stream per type of data (or Template ID), or one stream for flow data and one for metadata." The only reason we're keeping the recommendation to use stream 0 for=20 templates is that it is specified in the IPFIX protocol, which at this=20 point cannot be changed. Regards, Elisa P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second=20 interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held=20 in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)=20 to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as=20 specified in the protocol. Benoit Claise wrote: > Gerhard, all, >=20 > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about=20 > for more than 6 months now. > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the=20 > idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-st= ream-00.txt=20 > fully explaining the idea > We also posted an IPR: see=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR = claimed=20 > in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." > Alternatively, directly look up=20 > = http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct= p-stream-00.txt >=20 > I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were=20 > posted. >=20 > Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the=20 > functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset = > draft=20 > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). > Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for = the=20 > new charter discussion in Chicago >=20 > Regards, Benoit. >> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >> >> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >> =20 >>>> 6.1: >>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>> >>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the = SCTP >>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>> reliably. >>>> >>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect = since >>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages = of SCTP! >>>> There is a side-effect: >>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the = exported >>>> data." >>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>> =20 >>> stream! >>> =20 >>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>> =20 >> >> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding = Data >> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >> >> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It = seems >> that the sentence >> >> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >> stream zero. >> >> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP = when >> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. = Actually, >> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message = can >> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect = of >> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >> >> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream = for >> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, = Data >> Sets in partially reliable messages. >> >> Am I missing the point here? >> >> Regards, >> Gerhard >> >> =20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IPFIX mailing list >> IPFIX@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >> =20 >=20 >=20 > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IPFIX mailing list > IPFIX@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix ------_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP

Benoit, Gerhard,

I'd invite you both at having a look at the current version of
the Guidelines before proposing to add something wich has been
already addressed.

Also I have a problem in understanding what exactly you're trying to
patent or where the new idea is. Is it as you say in your -00 draft
(dated 30th April 2007) in section 4:

"Each (Options) Template and its associated Data Records would = be
 sent on a unique SCTP stream. The (Options) Template would = still
 be sent reliably, while the level of reliability for the Data
 Records would be chosen depending on the specific = application."


Please note than that draft-ietf-implementation-guidelines-00.txt,
section 7.1 (SCTP), paragraph 5 said:


"A more complex device might allocate one data stream per = Template
 ID, so that data pertaining to each Template ID is transferred = quite
 independently."

and this has been published on the * 30th of August 2006 * !!
(almost 9 months ago!)


The current version of the Guidelines (I refer to -03 published on = the
26th of April, even if -04 has been submitted today) specifies:

   "An SCTP association may contain multiple = streams.  SCTP associations
   used to transport IPFIX Messages MUST contain at least two = streams.
   Messages containing Templates Sets and Options Template = Sets, and
   Template Withdraw Messages, SHOULD be sent on stream = 0.  Messages
   containing Data Sets SHOULD be sent on SCTP streams other = than stream
   0.  This implies that, at minimum, stream 0 is used = for Templates and
   stream 1 is used for Data Sets.

   The Collecting Process MUST be able to process any Message = received
   on any stream.

   Multiple SCTP streams are useful for avoiding head-of-line = blocking,
   thereby minimising end to end delay from the Exporting = Process to the
   Collecting Process.  Example applications for this = feature would be
   using one SCTP stream per Observation Domain, one stream = per type of
   data (or Template ID), or one stream for flow data and one = for
   metadata."


The only reason we're keeping the recommendation to use stream 0 for
templates is that it is specified in the IPFIX protocol, which at = this
point cannot be changed.


Regards,
Elisa



P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second
interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held
in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)
to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as
specified in the protocol.



Benoit Claise wrote:
> Gerhard, all,
>
> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking = about
> for more than 6 months now.
> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed = the
> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipf= ix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> fully explaining the idea
> We also posted an IPR: see
> https://datatra= cker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about = IPR claimed
> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> Alternatively, directly look up
> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-cl= aise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
>
> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR = were
> posted.
>
> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP = reset
> draft
> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate = for the
> new charter discussion in Chicago
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>
>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>  
>>>> 6.1:
>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it = is:
>>>>
>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template = Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option = Template Sets MUST be sent
>>>>    reliably.
>>>>
>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important = implementation aspect since
>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main = advantages of SCTP!
>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>    "A simple system might use just = one data stream for all the exported
>>>>    data."
>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over = one reliable
>>>>      
>>> stream!
>>>    
>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should = address your
>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>    
>>
>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the = corresponding Data
>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>
>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on = PR-SCTP. It seems
>> that the sentence
>>
>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets = SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>     stream zero.
>>
>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of = PR-SCTP when
>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. = Actually,
>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one = message can
>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The = effect of
>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that = head-of-line
>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different = streams.
>>
>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate = stream for
>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the = corresponding
>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template = arrives
>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable = messages, Data
>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>
>> Am I missing the point here?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerhard
>>
>>  
>> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------<= BR> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>  
>
>
> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------<= BR> >
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

------_=_NextPart_001_01C79D57.9540B4C3-- --===============1836251993== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1836251993==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 18:50:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqzeg-000397-G5; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:50:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqzed-00038l-EN; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:50:03 -0400 Received: from ns1.neustar.com ([2001:503:c779:1a::9c9a:108a]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqzec-0007m3-5j; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:50:03 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E8626E78; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Hqzeb-0003y0-VR; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:50:01 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org Subject: [IPFIX] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPFIX Implementation Guidelines Author(s) : E. Boschi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2007-5-23 The IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) protocol defines how IP Flow information can be exported from routers, measurement probes or other devices. This document provides guidelines for the implementation and use of the IPFIX protocol. Several sets of guidelines address template management, transport-specific issues, implementation of exporting and collecting processes and IPFIX implementation on middleboxes (such as firewalls, network address translators, tunnel endpoints, packet classifiers, etc.). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt". 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This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPFIX Implementation Guidelines Author(s) : E. Boschi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2007-5-23 The IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) protocol defines how IP Flow information can be exported from routers, measurement probes or other devices. This document provides guidelines for the implementation and use of the IPFIX protocol. Several sets of guidelines address template management, transport-specific issues, implementation of exporting and collecting processes and IPFIX implementation on middleboxes (such as firewalls, network address translators, tunnel endpoints, packet classifiers, etc.). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. 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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr1mU-0005j3-8j for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7187C18207 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:14 +1200 (NZST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (larry.its.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yI1Dn7u6BKCo for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:14 +1200 (NZST) Received: from [130.216.38.130] (nevil-laptop.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59342181AF for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:14 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: ipfix@ietf.org From: Nevil Brownlee Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:13 +1200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [IPFIX] Biflows draft: should it be Standards Track X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi all: We've had a comment from Sam Hartman (Security Area AD), saying "Why should this *not* this be Standards Track?" From the point of view that we'd like all collectors to understand biflows, Standards Track would be good. However, we know that - we didn't want to add anything that needed changes to the protocol (that has to wait until we have enough experience for IPFIXv2!) - the draft's method for handling biflows is therefore a retrofit, introducing the 'reverse' info elements using a defined Private Enterprise Number (essentially using that as a simple way to extend the IPFIX information model) Having the biflows RFC as Standards Track would ensure that different implementations implement biflows the same way 'on the wire,' so I think that's reasonable. Again, another possibilty is Experimental. That flags it as something that vendors don't have to implement to comply, instead as something that the WG wants to get some operational experience with. Can we have some feedback, please, on whether the Biflows Draft should be Standards Track or Experimental, please ... Cheers, Nevil --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nevil Brownlee Computer Science Department | ITS Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941 The University of Auckland FAX: +64 9 373 7453 Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 23 21:06:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr1mW-0003MP-1Z; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr1mV-0003MK-LU for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:19 -0400 Received: from larry.its.auckland.ac.nz ([130.216.10.122] helo=mailhost.auckland.ac.nz) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr1mU-0005j3-8j for ipfix@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:06:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7187C18207 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:14 +1200 (NZST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mailhost.auckland.ac.nz Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (larry.its.auckland.ac.nz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yI1Dn7u6BKCo for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:14 +1200 (NZST) Received: from [130.216.38.130] (nevil-laptop.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59342181AF for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:14 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: ipfix@ietf.org From: Nevil Brownlee Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06:13 +1200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [IPFIX] Biflows draft: should it be Standards Track X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Hi all: We've had a comment from Sam Hartman (Security Area AD), saying "Why should this *not* this be Standards Track?" From the point of view that we'd like all collectors to understand biflows, Standards Track would be good. However, we know that - we didn't want to add anything that needed changes to the protocol (that has to wait until we have enough experience for IPFIXv2!) - the draft's method for handling biflows is therefore a retrofit, introducing the 'reverse' info elements using a defined Private Enterprise Number (essentially using that as a simple way to extend the IPFIX information model) Having the biflows RFC as Standards Track would ensure that different implementations implement biflows the same way 'on the wire,' so I think that's reasonable. Again, another possibilty is Experimental. That flags it as something that vendors don't have to implement to comply, instead as something that the WG wants to get some operational experience with. Can we have some feedback, please, on whether the Biflows Draft should be Standards Track or Experimental, please ... Cheers, Nevil --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nevil Brownlee Computer Science Department | ITS Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941 The University of Auckland FAX: +64 9 373 7453 Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 03:21:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr7dL-00028p-2S; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:21:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr7dJ-00028e-2Y for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:21:13 -0400 Received: from mx05.uni-tuebingen.de ([134.2.3.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr7dG-0002Xl-BG for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:21:13 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rouen.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.152]) by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4O7L3uu022801; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:21:03 +0200 Message-ID: <46553CD1.2090407@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:20:49 +0200 From: Gerhard Muenz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Boschi, Elisa" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir MailGate (version: 2.1.2-11; AVE: 7.4.0.27; VDF: 6.38.1.186; host: mx05) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de id l4O7L3uu022801 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f Cc: peterlei@cisco.com, ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Elisa, all, Please find my comments inline. Boschi, Elisa wrote: > Benoit, Gerhard, >=20 > I'd invite you both at having a look at the current version of > the Guidelines before proposing to add something wich has been > already addressed. Don't worry, I did have a look before writing my last e-mail :) > Also I have a problem in understanding what exactly you're trying to > patent or where the new idea is. Is it as you say in your -00 draft > (dated 30th April 2007) in section 4: >=20 > "Each (Options) Template and its associated Data Records would be > sent on a unique SCTP stream. The (Options) Template would still > be sent reliably, while the level of reliability for the Data > Records would be chosen depending on the specific application." Exactly, and this is the obvious and effective way to use PR-SCTP as transport protocol for IPFIX. On the other hand, until now, nobody could explain me the reason for the "SHOULD" in the protocol draft related to sending all Templates over stream 0. There is no reason to standardize this restriction. It even disadvices and disallows the effective usage of PR-SCTP as described in the -00 draft and pointed out in my e-mail from two months ago. > Please note than that draft-ietf-implementation-guidelines-00.txt, > section 7.1 (SCTP), paragraph 5 said: >=20 >=20 > "A more complex device might allocate one data stream per Template > ID, so that data pertaining to each Template ID is transferred quite > independently." >=20 > and this has been published on the * 30th of August 2006 * !! > (almost 9 months ago!) As I understand this remark, it refers to data only. However, this discussion is about the Templates which are most effectivly sent over the same stream as the associated records in a reliable message. > The current version of the Guidelines (I refer to -03 published on the > 26th of April, even if -04 has been submitted today) specifies: >=20 > "An SCTP association may contain multiple streams. SCTP association= s > used to transport IPFIX Messages MUST contain at least two streams. > Messages containing Templates Sets and Options Template Sets, and > Template Withdraw Messages, SHOULD be sent on stream 0. Messages > containing Data Sets SHOULD be sent on SCTP streams other than strea= m > 0. This implies that, at minimum, stream 0 is used for Templates an= d > stream 1 is used for Data Sets. >=20 > The Collecting Process MUST be able to process any Message received > on any stream. >=20 > Multiple SCTP streams are useful for avoiding head-of-line blocking, > thereby minimising end to end delay from the Exporting Process to th= e > Collecting Process. Example applications for this feature would be > using one SCTP stream per Observation Domain, one stream per type of > data (or Template ID), or one stream for flow data and one for > metadata." >=20 >=20 > The only reason we're keeping the recommendation to use stream 0 for > templates is that it is specified in the IPFIX protocol, which at this > point cannot be changed. Yes, I am aware of the dependency between the two drafts. And I know that you cannot recommend something in the guidelines which is against the protocol specification. I'm sorry that I did not come up with this issue earlier, but we only recently started to implement SCTP support for our probe. And this also was the first time when I tried to understand how PR-SCTP actually functions. > P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second > interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held > in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0) > to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as > specified in the protocol. I asked Lutz Mark after the last interop in November 2006 if PR-SCTP was tested, and he answered that this was not the case because IPFIX over PR-SCTP was not implemented. But maybe this was a misunderstanding? Regards, Gerhard > Benoit Claise wrote: >> Gerhard, all, >> >> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about >> for more than 6 months now. >> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the >> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft >> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-= stream-00.txt >> fully explaining the idea >> We also posted an IPR: see >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. >> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claime= d >> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." >> Alternatively, directly look up >> > http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-s= ctp-stream-00.txt >> >> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were >> posted. >> >> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the >> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset >> draft >> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). >> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for t= he >> new charter discussion in Chicago >> >> Regards, Benoit. >>> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >>> >>> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >>> =20 >>>>> 6.1: >>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>>> >>>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCT= P >>>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>>> reliably. >>>>> >>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect > since >>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages > of SCTP! >>>>> There is a side-effect: >>>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expo= rted >>>>> data." >>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>>> =20 >>>> stream! >>>> =20 >>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>>> =20 >>> >>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Da= ta >>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >>> >>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It = seems >>> that the sentence >>> >>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>> stream zero. >>> >>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP w= hen >>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually= , >>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message ca= n >>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect= of >>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >>> >>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream = for >>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, D= ata >>> Sets in partially reliable messages. >>> >>> Am I missing the point here? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> =20 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IPFIX mailing list >>> IPFIX@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >>> =20 >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IPFIX mailing list >> IPFIX@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz Computer Networks and Internet Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science University of Tuebingen Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 29-70534 Fax: +49 7071 29-5220 E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de WWW: http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 03:21:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr7dL-00028p-2S; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:21:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr7dJ-00028e-2Y for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:21:13 -0400 Received: from mx05.uni-tuebingen.de ([134.2.3.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr7dG-0002Xl-BG for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:21:13 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rouen.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.152]) by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4O7L3uu022801; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:21:03 +0200 Message-ID: <46553CD1.2090407@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:20:49 +0200 From: Gerhard Muenz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Boschi, Elisa" Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir MailGate (version: 2.1.2-11; AVE: 7.4.0.27; VDF: 6.38.1.186; host: mx05) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mx05.uni-tuebingen.de id l4O7L3uu022801 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f Cc: peterlei@cisco.com, ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Elisa, all, Please find my comments inline. Boschi, Elisa wrote: > Benoit, Gerhard, >=20 > I'd invite you both at having a look at the current version of > the Guidelines before proposing to add something wich has been > already addressed. Don't worry, I did have a look before writing my last e-mail :) > Also I have a problem in understanding what exactly you're trying to > patent or where the new idea is. Is it as you say in your -00 draft > (dated 30th April 2007) in section 4: >=20 > "Each (Options) Template and its associated Data Records would be > sent on a unique SCTP stream. The (Options) Template would still > be sent reliably, while the level of reliability for the Data > Records would be chosen depending on the specific application." Exactly, and this is the obvious and effective way to use PR-SCTP as transport protocol for IPFIX. On the other hand, until now, nobody could explain me the reason for the "SHOULD" in the protocol draft related to sending all Templates over stream 0. There is no reason to standardize this restriction. It even disadvices and disallows the effective usage of PR-SCTP as described in the -00 draft and pointed out in my e-mail from two months ago. > Please note than that draft-ietf-implementation-guidelines-00.txt, > section 7.1 (SCTP), paragraph 5 said: >=20 >=20 > "A more complex device might allocate one data stream per Template > ID, so that data pertaining to each Template ID is transferred quite > independently." >=20 > and this has been published on the * 30th of August 2006 * !! > (almost 9 months ago!) As I understand this remark, it refers to data only. However, this discussion is about the Templates which are most effectivly sent over the same stream as the associated records in a reliable message. > The current version of the Guidelines (I refer to -03 published on the > 26th of April, even if -04 has been submitted today) specifies: >=20 > "An SCTP association may contain multiple streams. SCTP association= s > used to transport IPFIX Messages MUST contain at least two streams. > Messages containing Templates Sets and Options Template Sets, and > Template Withdraw Messages, SHOULD be sent on stream 0. Messages > containing Data Sets SHOULD be sent on SCTP streams other than strea= m > 0. This implies that, at minimum, stream 0 is used for Templates an= d > stream 1 is used for Data Sets. >=20 > The Collecting Process MUST be able to process any Message received > on any stream. >=20 > Multiple SCTP streams are useful for avoiding head-of-line blocking, > thereby minimising end to end delay from the Exporting Process to th= e > Collecting Process. Example applications for this feature would be > using one SCTP stream per Observation Domain, one stream per type of > data (or Template ID), or one stream for flow data and one for > metadata." >=20 >=20 > The only reason we're keeping the recommendation to use stream 0 for > templates is that it is specified in the IPFIX protocol, which at this > point cannot be changed. Yes, I am aware of the dependency between the two drafts. And I know that you cannot recommend something in the guidelines which is against the protocol specification. I'm sorry that I did not come up with this issue earlier, but we only recently started to implement SCTP support for our probe. And this also was the first time when I tried to understand how PR-SCTP actually functions. > P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second > interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held > in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0) > to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as > specified in the protocol. I asked Lutz Mark after the last interop in November 2006 if PR-SCTP was tested, and he answered that this was not the case because IPFIX over PR-SCTP was not implemented. But maybe this was a misunderstanding? Regards, Gerhard > Benoit Claise wrote: >> Gerhard, all, >> >> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about >> for more than 6 months now. >> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the >> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft >> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-= stream-00.txt >> fully explaining the idea >> We also posted an IPR: see >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. >> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claime= d >> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." >> Alternatively, directly look up >> > http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-s= ctp-stream-00.txt >> >> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were >> posted. >> >> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the >> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset >> draft >> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). >> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for t= he >> new charter discussion in Chicago >> >> Regards, Benoit. >>> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >>> >>> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >>> =20 >>>>> 6.1: >>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>>> >>>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCT= P >>>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>>> reliably. >>>>> >>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect > since >>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages > of SCTP! >>>>> There is a side-effect: >>>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expo= rted >>>>> data." >>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>>> =20 >>>> stream! >>>> =20 >>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>>> =20 >>> >>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Da= ta >>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >>> >>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It = seems >>> that the sentence >>> >>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>> stream zero. >>> >>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP w= hen >>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually= , >>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message ca= n >>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect= of >>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >>> >>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream = for >>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, D= ata >>> Sets in partially reliable messages. >>> >>> Am I missing the point here? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> =20 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IPFIX mailing list >>> IPFIX@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >>> =20 >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IPFIX mailing list >> IPFIX@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz Computer Networks and Internet Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science University of Tuebingen Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 29-70534 Fax: +49 7071 29-5220 E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de WWW: http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 04:13:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr8RN-00024B-HB; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr8RL-00023s-5n for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:56 -0400 Received: from purgatory.unfix.org ([2001:7b8:20d:0:290:27ff:fe24:c19f]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr8RK-0006Yj-JV for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:55 -0400 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1EA140C2CA; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:12:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <465548FF.2000404@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:12:47 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nevil Brownlee Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Biflows draft: should it be Standards Track References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/3289/Thu May 24 03:33:26 2007 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1489470717==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1489470717== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nevil Brownlee wrote: [..] > Having the biflows RFC as Standards Track would ensure that different > implementations implement biflows the same way 'on the wire,' so I > think that's reasonable. Having a single published draft ensures that, as implementations can claim they are "compliant to draft X". There is no difference between draft, RFC, STD etc. As one is compliant to X or not. > Again, another possibilty is Experimental. That flags it as something > that vendors don't have to implement to comply, instead as something > that the WG wants to get some operational experience with. Just noting that it is an optional component of IPFIX already solves that problem. The word "SHOULD" comes to mind here which covers that. > Can we have some feedback, please, on whether the Biflows Draft > should be Standards Track or Experimental, please ... Go for Standards Track. Define a well defined ID for it too. Greets, Jeroen --------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkZVSQQuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I3RJAJ92PSbH2/AlpV2jyEb3w+8MjVMB fQCdGPUrVTT9tFX14TmnIGdrYV5mweM= =JgQ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F-- --===============1489470717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1489470717==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 04:13:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr8RN-00024B-HB; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr8RL-00023s-5n for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:56 -0400 Received: from purgatory.unfix.org ([2001:7b8:20d:0:290:27ff:fe24:c19f]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr8RK-0006Yj-JV for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:55 -0400 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1EA140C2CA; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:12:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <465548FF.2000404@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:12:47 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nevil Brownlee Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Biflows draft: should it be Standards Track References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/3289/Thu May 24 03:33:26 2007 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1489470717==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1489470717== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nevil Brownlee wrote: [..] > Having the biflows RFC as Standards Track would ensure that different > implementations implement biflows the same way 'on the wire,' so I > think that's reasonable. Having a single published draft ensures that, as implementations can claim they are "compliant to draft X". There is no difference between draft, RFC, STD etc. As one is compliant to X or not. > Again, another possibilty is Experimental. That flags it as something > that vendors don't have to implement to comply, instead as something > that the WG wants to get some operational experience with. Just noting that it is an optional component of IPFIX already solves that problem. The word "SHOULD" comes to mind here which covers that. > Can we have some feedback, please, on whether the Biflows Draft > should be Standards Track or Experimental, please ... Go for Standards Track. Define a well defined ID for it too. Greets, Jeroen --------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkZVSQQuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I3RJAJ92PSbH2/AlpV2jyEb3w+8MjVMB fQCdGPUrVTT9tFX14TmnIGdrYV5mweM= =JgQ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig480DF3D3E7406C703A09030F-- --===============1489470717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IPFIX mailing list IPFIX@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix --===============1489470717==-- From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 05:07:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr9I9-0003VK-BU; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:07:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr9I8-0003Sv-OC for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:07:28 -0400 Received: from odd-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.119] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hr9I7-000897-WB for ipfix@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:07:28 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4O97Rd08101; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:07:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.61.81.255] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4608.cisco.com [10.61.81.255]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l4O97OW01068; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:07:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <465555CC.6090809@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:07:24 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerhard Muenz Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com> <4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> <46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> <4654546E.70705@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> In-Reply-To: <4654546E.70705@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 89ebdf268eceaeaf784b3acb625dc20e Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" , ipfix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipfix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IPFIX WG discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1652640787==" Errors-To: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1652640787== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030902070606050908040506" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030902070606050908040506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by av-tac-bru.cisco.com id l4O97Rd08101 Gerhard, > Benoit, Elisa, all, > > Apparently, my assumption was right: > There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the sam= e > stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol. > =20 You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very early=20 days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream=20 setting" > I made this comment about the proposed usage of SCTP for IPFIX exactly > two months ago. So thank you for the late answer. Yet, my comment > concretely refered to the protocol draft and the implementation > guidelines, and I do not understand why we need to postpone this issue > to future WG activities. > > What I've heard, few to no people actually implemented IPFIX over > PR-SCTP using multiple streams.=20 Using multiple separate streams for the data... This is my understanding > At least, this was not tested at the > interop, was it?=20 This is also my understanding. > This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness > of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier. > =20 Yep. > Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an > improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes: > > 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus > avoiding to specify something useless or confusing. > =20 The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD=20 be sent on the SCTP stream zero" It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed. From RFC2119 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that ther= e may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. =20 So it is really a big problem? > 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as > recommendations into the implementation guidelines. > =20 IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture. Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how many=20 streams you need when you start up the SCTP association? What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the SCTP=20 association to increase the number? This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft will=20 follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in=20 the SCTP reset draft" Regards, Benoit. > Regards, > Gerhard > > > Benoit Claise wrote: > =20 >> Gerhard, all, >> >> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about >> for more than 6 months now. >> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the >> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp= -stream-00.txt >> fully explaining the idea >> We also posted an IPR: see >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi. >> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claime= d >> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt." >> Alternatively, directly look up >> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-= sctp-stream-00.txt >> >> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were >> posted. >> >> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the >> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset >> draft >> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt). >> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for t= he >> new charter discussion in Chicago >> >> Regards, Benoit. >> =20 >>> Hi Elisa, Benoit, >>> >>> Boschi, Elisa wrote: >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>>> 6.1: >>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is: >>>>> >>>>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCT= P >>>>> stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent >>>>> reliably. >>>>> >>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect= since >>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages o= f SCTP! >>>>> There is a side-effect: >>>>> "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expo= rted >>>>> data." >>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> stream! >>>> =20 >>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your >>>> concerns... more about this in the next days >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Da= ta >>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)? >>> >>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It = seems >>> that the sentence >>> >>> Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP >>> stream zero. >>> >>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP w= hen >>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually= , >>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message ca= n >>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect= of >>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line >>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams. >>> >>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream = for >>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding >>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives >>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, D= ata >>> Sets in partially reliable messages. >>> >>> Am I missing the point here? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IPFIX mailing list >>> IPFIX@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix >>> =20 >>> =20 > > =20 --------------030902070606050908040506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerhard, 
Benoit, Elisa, all,

Apparently, my assumption was right:
There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the same
stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.
You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting" 
I made this comment about the proposed usage of SCTP for IPFIX exactly
two months ago. So thank you for the late answer. Yet, my comment
concretely refered to the protocol draft and the implementation
guidelines, and I do not understand why we need to postpone this issue
to future WG activities.

What I've heard, few to no people actually implemented IPFIX over
PR-SCTP using multiple streams.
Using multiple separate streams for the data... This is my understanding
At least, this was not tested at the
interop, was it?
This is also my understanding.
This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness
of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.
Yep.
Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an
improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes:

1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.
The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP stream zero"
It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.
>From RFC2119
3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
   may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
   particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
   carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
So it is really a big problem?



  
2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as
recommendations into the implementation guidelines.
  



IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.

Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how many
streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?

What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the SCTP
association to increase the number?

This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft will
follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available
in the SCTP reset draft"



Regards, Benoit.



  
Regards,
Gerhard


Benoit Claise wrote:
  

  

    
 Gerhard, all,

What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
for more than 6 months now.
Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
fully explaining the idea
We also posted an IPR: see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed
in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
Alternatively, directly look up
http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
posted.

Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
draft
(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the
new charter discussion in Chicago

Regards, Benoit.
    

    

      
Hi Elisa, Benoit,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
  
      

      

        

          
6.1:
The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:

   Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
   stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
   reliably.

I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP!
There is a side-effect:
   "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
   data."
This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
      
          

        

        
stream!
    
6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
concerns... more about this in the next days
    
        

      

      
What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data
Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?

I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It seems
that the sentence

    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
    stream zero.

from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.

Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
Sets in partially reliable messages.

Am I missing the point here?

Regards,
Gerhard

  
 
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org <mailto:IPFIX@ietf.org>
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
  
      

    

  

  

  








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	l4O97Rd08101

Gerhard,
> Benoit, Elisa, all,
>
> Apparently, my assumption was right:
> There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the sam=
e
> stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.
>  =20
You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very early=20
days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream=20
setting"
> I made this comment about the proposed usage of SCTP for IPFIX exactly
> two months ago. So thank you for the late answer. Yet, my comment
> concretely refered to the protocol draft and the implementation
> guidelines, and I do not understand why we need to postpone this issue
> to future WG activities.
>
> What I've heard, few to no people actually implemented IPFIX over
> PR-SCTP using multiple streams.=20
Using multiple separate streams for the data... This is my understanding
> At least, this was not tested at the
> interop, was it?=20
This is also my understanding.
> This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness
> of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.
>  =20
Yep.
> Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an
> improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes:
>
> 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
> avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.
>  =20
The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD=20
be sent on the SCTP stream zero"
It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.
 From RFC2119

    3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that ther=
e
       may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
       particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
       carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
     =20

So it is really a big problem?

> 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as
> recommendations into the implementation guidelines.
>  =20
IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.
Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how many=20
streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?
What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the SCTP=20
association to increase the number?
This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft will=20
follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in=20
the SCTP reset draft"

Regards, Benoit.
> Regards,
> Gerhard
>
>
> Benoit Claise wrote:
>  =20
>>  Gerhard, all,
>>
>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
>> for more than 6 months now.
>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp=
-stream-00.txt
>> fully explaining the idea
>> We also posted an IPR: see
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claime=
d
>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>> Alternatively, directly look up
>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-=
sctp-stream-00.txt
>>
>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>> posted.
>>
>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
>> draft
>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for t=
he
>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>
>> Regards, Benoit.
>>    =20
>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>
>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>  =20
>>>      =20
>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>
>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCT=
P
>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>
>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect=
 since
>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages o=
f SCTP!
>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expo=
rted
>>>>>    data."
>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
>>>>>      =20
>>>>>          =20
>>>> stream!
>>>>    =20
>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>    =20
>>>>        =20
>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Da=
ta
>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>
>>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It =
seems
>>> that the sentence
>>>
>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>>     stream zero.
>>>
>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP w=
hen
>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually=
,
>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message ca=
n
>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect=
 of
>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>
>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream =
for
>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, D=
ata
>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>
>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Gerhard
>>>
>>>  =20
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>> IPFIX@ietf.org 
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>  =20
>>>      =20
>
>  =20


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Gerhard,


  
Benoit, Elisa, all,

Apparently, my assumption was right:
There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the same
stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.
  



You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very early
days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a
per-stream setting"


  
I made this comment about the proposed usage of SCTP for IPFIX exactly
two months ago. So thank you for the late answer. Yet, my comment
concretely refered to the protocol draft and the implementation
guidelines, and I do not understand why we need to postpone this issue
to future WG activities.

What I've heard, few to no people actually implemented IPFIX over
PR-SCTP using multiple streams. 



Using multiple separate streams for the data... This is my understanding



  
At least, this was not tested at the
interop, was it? 



This is also my understanding.



  
This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness
of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.
  



Yep.



  
Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an
improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes:

1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.
  



The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template Sets
SHOULD be sent on the SCTP stream zero"

It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.

>From RFC2119



  
3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
   may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
   particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
   carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
  



So it is really a big problem?





  
2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as
recommendations into the implementation guidelines.
  



IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.

Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how many
streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?

What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the SCTP
association to increase the number?

This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft will
follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available
in the SCTP reset draft"



Regards, Benoit.



  
Regards,
Gerhard


Benoit Claise wrote:
  

  

    
 Gerhard, all,

What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
for more than 6 months now.
Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
fully explaining the idea
We also posted an IPR: see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed
in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
Alternatively, directly look up
http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
posted.

Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
draft
(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the
new charter discussion in Chicago

Regards, Benoit.
    

    

      
Hi Elisa, Benoit,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
  
      

      

        

          
6.1:
The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:

   Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
   stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
   reliably.

I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP!
There is a side-effect:
   "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
   data."
This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
      
          

        

        
stream!
    
6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
concerns... more about this in the next days
    
        

      

      
What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data
Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?

I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It seems
that the sentence

    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
    stream zero.

from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.

Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
Sets in partially reliable messages.

Am I missing the point here?

Regards,
Gerhard

  
 
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org <mailto:IPFIX@ietf.org>
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
  
      

    

  

  

  








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--===============1652640787==--




From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 07:58:20 2007
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Gerhard and Elisa,

>> P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second
>> interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held
>> in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)
>> to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as
>> specified in the protocol.
> 
> I asked Lutz Mark after the last interop in November 2006 if PR-SCTP was
> tested, and he answered that this was not the case because IPFIX over
> PR-SCTP was not implemented. But maybe this was a misunderstanding?

maybe I can clarify this.

I gather that we have tested IPFIX over SCTP (not PR-SCTP) on all
IPFIX Interop Events. There were one collector implementation
that expected IPFIX templates on stream 0.
On the last event in Berlin we have also tested IPFIX
interoperability when the Exporter uses multiple
SCTP streams (but no PR-SCTP).

Regards,
Lutz



_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 07:58:20 2007
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Gerhard and Elisa,

>> P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second
>> interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held
>> in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)
>> to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as
>> specified in the protocol.
> 
> I asked Lutz Mark after the last interop in November 2006 if PR-SCTP was
> tested, and he answered that this was not the case because IPFIX over
> PR-SCTP was not implemented. But maybe this was a misunderstanding?

maybe I can clarify this.

I gather that we have tested IPFIX over SCTP (not PR-SCTP) on all
IPFIX Interop Events. There were one collector implementation
that expected IPFIX templates on stream 0.
On the last event in Berlin we have also tested IPFIX
interoperability when the Exporter uses multiple
SCTP streams (but no PR-SCTP).

Regards,
Lutz



_______________________________________________
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Gerhard, Benoit,

>>
>> Apparently, my assumption was right:
>> There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the =
same
>> stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.
>>  =20
> You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very early=20
> days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a =
per-stream=20
> setting"
>
...

>> This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness
>> of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.
>>=20

 =20
We did recognize it during last interop event and we were sure about it =
after discussing the current SCTP section of the guidelines with the =
SCTP people (during last IETF meeting and before the last IPFIX =
meeting). Actually this was one of the triggers to write the current =
SCTP section of the guidelines, trying to clarify the use of SCTP  (e.g. =
per-message (partial) reliability, multiple streams, unordered =
delivery). But the protocol had already gone through IESG review and we =
couldn't change it nor contradict it. The constraint of sending =
templates on stream 0 had to be kept.

I see a big danger in trying to change it now, with a new document. Not =
because the basic idea is bad, on the contrary, we basically proposed =
the same (even if we had the constraint, imposed by the protocol, to =
send templates on stream 0) but exactly because it apparently =
contradicts what has been specified in the protocol and recommended in =
the guidelines (which have to be consistent with the protocol).
This can only generate confusion among the implementers.=20


Regards,
Elisa




> Yep.
>> Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an
>> improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes:
>>
>> 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
>> avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.
>>  =20
> The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template Sets =
SHOULD=20
> be sent on the SCTP stream zero"
> It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.
>  >From RFC2119
>=20
>     3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that =
there
>        may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
>        particular item, but the full implications must be understood =
and
>        carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
>      =20
>=20
> So it is really a big problem?
>=20
>> 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as
>> recommendations into the implementation guidelines.
>>  =20
> IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.
> Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how many =

> streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?
> What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the SCTP=20
> association to increase the number?
> This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft will=20
> follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available =
in=20
> the SCTP reset draft"
>=20
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Regards,
>> Gerhard
>>
>>
>> Benoit Claise wrote:
>>  =20
>>>  Gerhard, all,
>>>
>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking =
about
>>> for more than 6 months now.
>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-st=
ream-00.txt
>>> fully explaining the idea
>>> We also posted an IPR: see
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR =
claimed
>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>>> Alternatively, directly look up
>>> =
http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct=
p-stream-00.txt
>>>
>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP =
reset
>>> draft
>>> =
(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for =
the
>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>    =20
>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>>
>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>>  =20
>>>>      =20
>>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the =
SCTP
>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be =
sent
>>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation =
aspect since
>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages =
of SCTP!
>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the =
exported
>>>>>>    data."
>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one =
reliable
>>>>>>      =20
>>>>>>          =20
>>>>> stream!
>>>>>    =20
>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address =
your
>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>>    =20
>>>>>        =20
>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding =
Data
>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>>
>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. =
It seems
>>>> that the sentence
>>>>
>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the =
SCTP
>>>>     stream zero.
>>>>
>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP =
when
>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. =
Actually,
>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message =
can
>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The =
effect of
>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that =
head-of-line
>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate =
stream for
>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the =
corresponding
>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, =
Data
>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gerhard
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org 
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>  =20
>>>>      =20
>>
>>  =20
>=20
>=20
> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix




------_=_NextPart_001_01C79E0B.09576BBA
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP





Gerhard, Benoit,



>>

>> Apparently, my assumption was right:

>> There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over =
the same

>> stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.

>>  

> You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very =
early

> days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a =
per-stream

> setting"

>

...



>> This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness

>> of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.

>>



 

We did recognize it during last interop event and we were sure about it =
after discussing the current SCTP section of the guidelines with the =
SCTP people (during last IETF meeting and before the last IPFIX =
meeting). Actually this was one of the triggers to write the current =
SCTP section of the guidelines, trying to clarify the use of SCTP  =
(e.g. per-message (partial) reliability, multiple streams, unordered =
delivery). But the protocol had already gone through IESG review and we =
couldn't change it nor contradict it. The constraint of sending =
templates on stream 0 had to be kept.



I see a big danger in trying to change it now, with a new document. Not =
because the basic idea is bad, on the contrary, we basically proposed =
the same (even if we had the constraint, imposed by the protocol, to =
send templates on stream 0) but exactly because it apparently =
contradicts what has been specified in the protocol and recommended in =
the guidelines (which have to be consistent with the protocol).

This can only generate confusion among the implementers.





Regards,

Elisa









> Yep.

>> Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for =
an

>> improvement later, I suggest the following quite small =
changes:

>>

>> 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, =
thus

>> avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.

>>  

> The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template =
Sets SHOULD

> be sent on the SCTP stream zero"

> It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.

>  >From RFC2119

>

>     3. SHOULD   This word, or the =
adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there

>        may exist valid reasons =
in particular circumstances to ignore a

>        particular item, but the =
full implications must be understood and

>        carefully weighed before =
choosing a different course.

>      

>

> So it is really a big problem?

>

>> 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 =
as

>> recommendations into the implementation guidelines.

>>  

> IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.

> Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how =
many

> streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?

> What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the =
SCTP

> association to increase the number?

> This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft =
will

> follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when =
available in

> the SCTP reset draft"

>

> Regards, Benoit.

>> Regards,

>> Gerhard

>>

>>

>> Benoit Claise wrote:

>>  

>>>  Gerhard, all,

>>>

>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been =
thinking about

>>> for more than 6 months now.

>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you =
proposed the

>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft

>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipf=
ix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

>>> fully explaining the idea

>>> We also posted an IPR: see

>>> https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.

>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement =
about IPR claimed

>>> in =
draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."

>>> Alternatively, directly look up

>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-cl=
aise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

>>>

>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the =
IPR were

>>> posted.

>>>

>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with =
the

>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the =
SCTP reset

>>> draft

>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).

>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good =
candidate for the

>>> new charter discussion in Chicago

>>>

>>> Regards, Benoit.

>>>    

>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,

>>>>

>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:

>>>>  

>>>>      

>>>>>> 6.1:

>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! =
Now it is:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option =
Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP

>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets =
and Option Template Sets MUST be sent

>>>>>>    reliably.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important =
implementation aspect since

>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of =
the main advantages of SCTP!

>>>>>> There is a side-effect:

>>>>>>    "A simple system might =
use just one data stream for all the exported

>>>>>>    data."

>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are =
sent over one reliable

>>>>>>      

>>>>>>        &=
nbsp; 

>>>>> stream!

>>>>>    

>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version =
should address your

>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days

>>>>>    

>>>>>        

>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the =
corresponding Data

>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream =
(zero)?

>>>>

>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working =
on PR-SCTP. It seems

>>>> that the sentence

>>>>

>>>>     Template Sets and Option =
Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP

>>>>     stream zero.

>>>>

>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early =
days of PR-SCTP when

>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream =
setting. Actually,

>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, =
one message can

>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially =
reliable. The effect of

>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and =
that head-of-line

>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between =
different streams.

>>>>

>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a =
separate stream for

>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the =
corresponding

>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the =
Template arrives

>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in =
reliable messages, Data

>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.

>>>>

>>>> Am I missing the point here?

>>>>

>>>> Regards,

>>>> Gerhard

>>>>

>>>>  

>>>> 

>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> IPFIX mailing list

>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org <mailto:IPFIX@ietf.org>

>>>> https://www1.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

>>>>  

>>>>      

>>

>>  

>

>

> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR>
>

> _______________________________________________

> IPFIX mailing list

> IPFIX@ietf.org

> https://www1.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix













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Gerhard, Benoit,

>>
>> Apparently, my assumption was right:
>> There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over the =
same
>> stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.
>>  =20
> You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very early=20
> days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a =
per-stream=20
> setting"
>
...

>> This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness
>> of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.
>>=20

 =20
We did recognize it during last interop event and we were sure about it =
after discussing the current SCTP section of the guidelines with the =
SCTP people (during last IETF meeting and before the last IPFIX =
meeting). Actually this was one of the triggers to write the current =
SCTP section of the guidelines, trying to clarify the use of SCTP  (e.g. =
per-message (partial) reliability, multiple streams, unordered =
delivery). But the protocol had already gone through IESG review and we =
couldn't change it nor contradict it. The constraint of sending =
templates on stream 0 had to be kept.

I see a big danger in trying to change it now, with a new document. Not =
because the basic idea is bad, on the contrary, we basically proposed =
the same (even if we had the constraint, imposed by the protocol, to =
send templates on stream 0) but exactly because it apparently =
contradicts what has been specified in the protocol and recommended in =
the guidelines (which have to be consistent with the protocol).
This can only generate confusion among the implementers.=20


Regards,
Elisa




> Yep.
>> Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for an
>> improvement later, I suggest the following quite small changes:
>>
>> 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
>> avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.
>>  =20
> The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template Sets =
SHOULD=20
> be sent on the SCTP stream zero"
> It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.
>  >From RFC2119
>=20
>     3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that =
there
>        may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
>        particular item, but the full implications must be understood =
and
>        carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
>      =20
>=20
> So it is really a big problem?
>=20
>> 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 as
>> recommendations into the implementation guidelines.
>>  =20
> IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.
> Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how many =

> streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?
> What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the SCTP=20
> association to increase the number?
> This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft will=20
> follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available =
in=20
> the SCTP reset draft"
>=20
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Regards,
>> Gerhard
>>
>>
>> Benoit Claise wrote:
>>  =20
>>>  Gerhard, all,
>>>
>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking =
about
>>> for more than 6 months now.
>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-st=
ream-00.txt
>>> fully explaining the idea
>>> We also posted an IPR: see
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR =
claimed
>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>>> Alternatively, directly look up
>>> =
http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct=
p-stream-00.txt
>>>
>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP =
reset
>>> draft
>>> =
(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for =
the
>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>    =20
>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>>
>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>>  =20
>>>>      =20
>>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the =
SCTP
>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be =
sent
>>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation =
aspect since
>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages =
of SCTP!
>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the =
exported
>>>>>>    data."
>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one =
reliable
>>>>>>      =20
>>>>>>          =20
>>>>> stream!
>>>>>    =20
>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address =
your
>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>>    =20
>>>>>        =20
>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding =
Data
>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>>
>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. =
It seems
>>>> that the sentence
>>>>
>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the =
SCTP
>>>>     stream zero.
>>>>
>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP =
when
>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. =
Actually,
>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message =
can
>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The =
effect of
>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that =
head-of-line
>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate =
stream for
>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the =
corresponding
>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, =
Data
>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gerhard
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org 
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>  =20
>>>>      =20
>>
>>  =20
>=20
>=20
> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix




------_=_NextPart_001_01C79E0B.09576BBA
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP





Gerhard, Benoit,



>>

>> Apparently, my assumption was right:

>> There are no good reasons at all for sending all Templates over =
the same

>> stream 0, as specified in ipfix-protocol.

>>  

> You got it right in your initial email: "is a relict from very =
early

> days of PR-SCTP when reliability options were assumed to be a =
per-stream

> setting"

>

...



>> This may explain why nobody recognized the uselessness

>> of this detail in the IPFIX protocol specs earlier.

>>



 

We did recognize it during last interop event and we were sure about it =
after discussing the current SCTP section of the guidelines with the =
SCTP people (during last IETF meeting and before the last IPFIX =
meeting). Actually this was one of the triggers to write the current =
SCTP section of the guidelines, trying to clarify the use of SCTP  =
(e.g. per-message (partial) reliability, multiple streams, unordered =
delivery). But the protocol had already gone through IESG review and we =
couldn't change it nor contradict it. The constraint of sending =
templates on stream 0 had to be kept.



I see a big danger in trying to change it now, with a new document. Not =
because the basic idea is bad, on the contrary, we basically proposed =
the same (even if we had the constraint, imposed by the protocol, to =
send templates on stream 0) but exactly because it apparently =
contradicts what has been specified in the protocol and recommended in =
the guidelines (which have to be consistent with the protocol).

This can only generate confusion among the implementers.





Regards,

Elisa









> Yep.

>> Instead of standardizing something useless now and waiting for =
an

>> improvement later, I suggest the following quite small =
changes:

>>

>> 1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, =
thus

>> avoiding to specify something useless or confusing.

>>  

> The latest draft mentions "Template Sets and Option Template =
Sets SHOULD

> be sent on the SCTP stream zero"

> It was a MUST in [IPFIX-PROTO] in the past, and was changed.

>  >From RFC2119

>

>     3. SHOULD   This word, or the =
adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there

>        may exist valid reasons =
in particular circumstances to ignore a

>        particular item, but the =
full implications must be understood and

>        carefully weighed before =
choosing a different course.

>      

>

> So it is really a big problem?

>

>> 2. Incorporate draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 =
as

>> recommendations into the implementation guidelines.

>>  

> IMHO, there is still one piece missing in the picture.

> Sending one template per stream is useful but how do you know how =
many

> streams you need when you start up the SCTP association?

> What if you need more streams, and don't want to shut down the =
SCTP

> association to increase the number?

> This is what I meant by "Note that a new version of this draft =
will

> follow, with the functionality to add streams in SCTP, when =
available in

> the SCTP reset draft"

>

> Regards, Benoit.

>> Regards,

>> Gerhard

>>

>>

>> Benoit Claise wrote:

>>  

>>>  Gerhard, all,

>>>

>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been =
thinking about

>>> for more than 6 months now.

>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you =
proposed the

>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft

>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipf=
ix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

>>> fully explaining the idea

>>> We also posted an IPR: see

>>> https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.

>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement =
about IPR claimed

>>> in =
draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."

>>> Alternatively, directly look up

>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-cl=
aise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt

>>>

>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the =
IPR were

>>> posted.

>>>

>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with =
the

>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the =
SCTP reset

>>> draft

>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).

>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good =
candidate for the

>>> new charter discussion in Chicago

>>>

>>> Regards, Benoit.

>>>    

>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,

>>>>

>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:

>>>>  

>>>>      

>>>>>> 6.1:

>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! =
Now it is:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option =
Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP

>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets =
and Option Template Sets MUST be sent

>>>>>>    reliably.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important =
implementation aspect since

>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of =
the main advantages of SCTP!

>>>>>> There is a side-effect:

>>>>>>    "A simple system might =
use just one data stream for all the exported

>>>>>>    data."

>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are =
sent over one reliable

>>>>>>      

>>>>>>        &=
nbsp; 

>>>>> stream!

>>>>>    

>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version =
should address your

>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days

>>>>>    

>>>>>        

>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the =
corresponding Data

>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream =
(zero)?

>>>>

>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working =
on PR-SCTP. It seems

>>>> that the sentence

>>>>

>>>>     Template Sets and Option =
Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP

>>>>     stream zero.

>>>>

>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early =
days of PR-SCTP when

>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream =
setting. Actually,

>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, =
one message can

>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially =
reliable. The effect of

>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and =
that head-of-line

>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between =
different streams.

>>>>

>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a =
separate stream for

>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the =
corresponding

>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the =
Template arrives

>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in =
reliable messages, Data

>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.

>>>>

>>>> Am I missing the point here?

>>>>

>>>> Regards,

>>>> Gerhard

>>>>

>>>>  

>>>> 

>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> IPFIX mailing list

>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org <mailto:IPFIX@ietf.org>

>>>> https://www1.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

>>>>  

>>>>      

>>

>>  

>

>

> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR>
>

> _______________________________________________

> IPFIX mailing list

> IPFIX@ietf.org

> https://www1.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/ipfix













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	"Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" ,
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Subject: [IPFIX] Re: Putting IPR on IPFIX while the target of IPFIX is to in
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[Not speaking in any way for Cisco on this issue...]

Simon Josefsson wrote:
>
> Such clauses may be acceptable when we know what the patent is, and what
> it covers, but this refer to unpublished patent applications.  This
> particular license also explicitly enable Cisco to collect retroactive
> royalties against anyone who sues Cisco over _any_ patent.
>   
> I don't believe these are acceptable terms for a Standards Track
> document.
>   

Just imagine the number of lawsuits that would exist if everyone did 
things this way.  Stallman should be jealous.

_______________________________________________
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[Not speaking in any way for Cisco on this issue...]

Simon Josefsson wrote:
>
> Such clauses may be acceptable when we know what the patent is, and what
> it covers, but this refer to unpublished patent applications.  This
> particular license also explicitly enable Cisco to collect retroactive
> royalties against anyone who sues Cisco over _any_ patent.
>   
> I don't believe these are acceptable terms for a Standards Track
> document.
>   

Just imagine the number of lawsuits that would exist if everyone did 
things this way.  Stallman should be jealous.

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP
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Lutz and all,

To clarify a bit further: the point may be a minor one, but we did test
IPFIX over PR-SCTP, meaning "an SCTP stack implementing the partial
reliability extension" as we generally do throughout the IPFIX
documents, though all the tests we ran used fully reliable delivery for
all messages (i.e. the lifetime of each message was effectively
infinite, in the parlance of the KAME SCTP API). Partially reliable
delivery is difficult to test in the environment we had set up (a local
LAN) and was not considered a priority compared to basic SCTP operation
and SSL/TLS over TCP.

Regards,

Brian

Lutz Mark wrote:
>=20
> Gerhard and Elisa,
>=20
>>> P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second
>>> interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held
>>> in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)
>>> to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as
>>> specified in the protocol.
>>
>> I asked Lutz Mark after the last interop in November 2006 if PR-SCTP w=
as
>> tested, and he answered that this was not the case because IPFIX over
>> PR-SCTP was not implemented. But maybe this was a misunderstanding?
>=20
> maybe I can clarify this.
>=20
> I gather that we have tested IPFIX over SCTP (not PR-SCTP) on all
> IPFIX Interop Events. There were one collector implementation
> that expected IPFIX templates on stream 0.
> On the last event in Berlin we have also tested IPFIX
> interoperability when the Exporter uses multiple
> SCTP streams (but no PR-SCTP).
>=20
> Regards,
> Lutz
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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Lutz and all,

To clarify a bit further: the point may be a minor one, but we did test
IPFIX over PR-SCTP, meaning "an SCTP stack implementing the partial
reliability extension" as we generally do throughout the IPFIX
documents, though all the tests we ran used fully reliable delivery for
all messages (i.e. the lifetime of each message was effectively
infinite, in the parlance of the KAME SCTP API). Partially reliable
delivery is difficult to test in the environment we had set up (a local
LAN) and was not considered a priority compared to basic SCTP operation
and SSL/TLS over TCP.

Regards,

Brian

Lutz Mark wrote:
>=20
> Gerhard and Elisa,
>=20
>>> P.S.: PR-SCTP implementations have been tested in both the second
>>> interoperability event held in Salzburg and in the last one held
>>> in Berlin. The implementations used two streams, one (Stream 0)
>>> to transmit templates and the other one for data, exactly as
>>> specified in the protocol.
>>
>> I asked Lutz Mark after the last interop in November 2006 if PR-SCTP w=
as
>> tested, and he answered that this was not the case because IPFIX over
>> PR-SCTP was not implemented. But maybe this was a misunderstanding?
>=20
> maybe I can clarify this.
>=20
> I gather that we have tested IPFIX over SCTP (not PR-SCTP) on all
> IPFIX Interop Events. There were one collector implementation
> that expected IPFIX templates on stream 0.
> On the last event in Berlin we have also tested IPFIX
> interoperability when the Exporter uses multiple
> SCTP streams (but no PR-SCTP).
>=20
> Regards,
> Lutz
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
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_______________________________________________
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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 10:38:35 2007
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From: Gerhard Muenz 
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To: "Boschi, Elisa" 
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP
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Elisa,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
> I see a big danger in trying to change it now, with a new document. Not
> because the basic idea is bad, on the contrary, we basically proposed
> the same (even if we had the constraint, imposed by the protocol, to
> send templates on stream 0) but exactly because it apparently
> contradicts what has been specified in the protocol and recommended in
> the guidelines (which have to be consistent with the protocol).
> This can only generate confusion among the implementers.

If the IPFIX protocol specs cannot be changed any more (although this is
 annoying in my opinion), the best thing we can do is to tackle this
issue in a new I-D as now initiated by Benoit. After all, the purpose is
not to confuse implementers, but to enable an efficient deployment of
IPFIX over SCTP and PR-SCTP.

IMHO, we should not refrain from improving obvious deficiency of the
IPFIX protocol just because something is written in the implementation
guidelines ;)

Regards,
Gerhard

-- 
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard Münz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz

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_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

--===============1571300959==--




From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 24 10:38:35 2007
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Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:38:14 +0200
From: Gerhard Muenz 
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To: "Boschi, Elisa" 
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines // SCTP
References: 
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Elisa,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
> I see a big danger in trying to change it now, with a new document. Not
> because the basic idea is bad, on the contrary, we basically proposed
> the same (even if we had the constraint, imposed by the protocol, to
> send templates on stream 0) but exactly because it apparently
> contradicts what has been specified in the protocol and recommended in
> the guidelines (which have to be consistent with the protocol).
> This can only generate confusion among the implementers.

If the IPFIX protocol specs cannot be changed any more (although this is
 annoying in my opinion), the best thing we can do is to tackle this
issue in a new I-D as now initiated by Benoit. After all, the purpose is
not to confuse implementers, but to enable an efficient deployment of
IPFIX over SCTP and PR-SCTP.

IMHO, we should not refrain from improving obvious deficiency of the
IPFIX protocol just because something is written in the implementation
guidelines ;)

Regards,
Gerhard

-- 
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard Münz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz

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From andy@elenagrey.com Thu May 24 18:49:43 2007
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Thank you for your loan request, which=20=
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Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium software is 
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been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team 
makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the 
information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. 
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From cherryfieldos@tpnet.pl Fri May 25 07:45:04 2007
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Just take a look at this one!!

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bullish...

WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK!!!

ipfix-archive, take a look at the hottest news, contact your brocker =
now...


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Just take a look at this =
one!!




Sea.rch for: ADOV
Current: $0.56 
3 Day Target price: =
$2.50
Market: bullish...





WATCH =
IT LIKE A HAWK.






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now!





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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 25 11:25:12 2007
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To: Benoit Claise 
Subject: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines
	// SCTP]
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Benoit, all,

I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
Group.

First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
(restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
"application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
handle that deployment pattern quite well.

However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.

I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.

I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?

We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
selection problem rapidly.

Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
problem.

Regards,

Brian

Benoit Claise wrote:
> Gerhard, all,
>=20
> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
> for more than 6 months now.
> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-=
stream-00.txt
> fully explaining the idea
> We also posted an IPR: see
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed=

> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> Alternatively, directly look up
> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-s=
ctp-stream-00.txt
>=20
> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
> posted.
>=20
> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
> draft
> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for th=
e
> new charter discussion in Chicago
>=20
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>
>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>  =20
>>>> 6.1:
>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>
>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP=

>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
>>>>    reliably.
>>>>
>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect =
since
>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of=
 SCTP!
>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expor=
ted
>>>>    data."
>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
>>>>      =20
>>> stream!
>>>    =20
>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>    =20
>>
>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Dat=
a
>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>
>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It s=
eems
>> that the sentence
>>
>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>     stream zero.
>>
>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP wh=
en
>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,=

>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can=

>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect =
of
>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>
>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream f=
or
>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Da=
ta
>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>
>> Am I missing the point here?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerhard
>>
>>  =20
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>  =20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



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To: Benoit Claise 
Subject: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] Implementation Guidelines
	// SCTP]
References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com>	<4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Benoit, all,

I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
Group.

First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
(restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
"application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
handle that deployment pattern quite well.

However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.

I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.

I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?

We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
selection problem rapidly.

Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
problem.

Regards,

Brian

Benoit Claise wrote:
> Gerhard, all,
>=20
> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
> for more than 6 months now.
> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-=
stream-00.txt
> fully explaining the idea
> We also posted an IPR: see
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed=

> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> Alternatively, directly look up
> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-s=
ctp-stream-00.txt
>=20
> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
> posted.
>=20
> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
> draft
> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for th=
e
> new charter discussion in Chicago
>=20
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>
>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>  =20
>>>> 6.1:
>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>
>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP=

>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
>>>>    reliably.
>>>>
>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect =
since
>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of=
 SCTP!
>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the expor=
ted
>>>>    data."
>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
>>>>      =20
>>> stream!
>>>    =20
>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>    =20
>>
>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Dat=
a
>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>
>> I've been talking to Michael T=FCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It s=
eems
>> that the sentence
>>
>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
>>     stream zero.
>>
>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP wh=
en
>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,=

>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can=

>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect =
of
>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>
>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream f=
or
>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Da=
ta
>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>
>> Am I missing the point here?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerhard
>>
>>  =20
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>  =20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 25 11:39:26 2007
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Biflows draft: should it be Standards Track
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Nevil and all,

For the record, I'm in favor of changing the intended status of the
Biflow Draft to Standards Track.

Cheers,

Brian

Nevil Brownlee wrote:
> Hi all:
>=20
> We've had a comment from Sam Hartman (Security Area AD), saying
> "Why should this *not* this be Standards Track?"
>=20
> From the point of view that we'd like all collectors to understand
> biflows, Standards Track would be good.   However, we know that
>  - we didn't want to add anything that needed changes to the protocol
>      (that has to wait until we have enough experience for IPFIXv2!)
>  - the draft's method for handling biflows is therefore a retrofit,
>      introducing the 'reverse' info elements using a defined
>      Private Enterprise Number (essentially using that as a simple
>      way to extend the IPFIX information model)
>=20
> Having the biflows RFC as Standards Track would ensure that different
> implementations implement biflows the same way 'on the wire,' so I
> think that's reasonable.
>=20
> Again, another possibilty is Experimental.  That flags it as something
> that vendors don't have to implement to comply, instead as something
> that the WG wants to get some operational experience with.
>=20
> Can we have some feedback, please, on whether the Biflows Draft
> should be Standards Track or Experimental, please ...
>=20
> Cheers, Nevil
>=20
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
>  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
>  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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Nevil and all,

For the record, I'm in favor of changing the intended status of the
Biflow Draft to Standards Track.

Cheers,

Brian

Nevil Brownlee wrote:
> Hi all:
>=20
> We've had a comment from Sam Hartman (Security Area AD), saying
> "Why should this *not* this be Standards Track?"
>=20
> From the point of view that we'd like all collectors to understand
> biflows, Standards Track would be good.   However, we know that
>  - we didn't want to add anything that needed changes to the protocol
>      (that has to wait until we have enough experience for IPFIXv2!)
>  - the draft's method for handling biflows is therefore a retrofit,
>      introducing the 'reverse' info elements using a defined
>      Private Enterprise Number (essentially using that as a simple
>      way to extend the IPFIX information model)
>=20
> Having the biflows RFC as Standards Track would ensure that different
> implementations implement biflows the same way 'on the wire,' so I
> think that's reasonable.
>=20
> Again, another possibilty is Experimental.  That flags it as something
> that vendors don't have to implement to comply, instead as something
> that the WG wants to get some operational experience with.
>=20
> Can we have some feedback, please, on whether the Biflows Draft
> should be Standards Track or Experimental, please ...
>=20
> Cheers, Nevil
>=20
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
>  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
>  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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From: Gerhard Muenz 
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To: Brian Trammell 
Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] Implementation
	Guidelines // SCTP]
References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com>	<4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
	<46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com> <4656FF07.7010807@cert.org>
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	Elisa Boschi , ipfix@ietf.org
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Brian,

Thank you for your effort. Your suggestion is completely inline with
what I wished in my earlier mail :)
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg03976.html

"1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
avoiding to specify something useless or confusing."

Which means, remove all stream-related restrictions and recommendations
in the protocol specs, and then maybe mention some hints about different
possibilities how to use streams in the implementations guidelines (or
separate drafts, if you do not want to have it in there).

Have a nice weekend,
Gerhard



Brian Trammell wrote:
> Benoit, all,
> 
> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
> Group.
> 
> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
> 
> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
> 
> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
> 
> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
> 
> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
> selection problem rapidly.
> 
> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
> problem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 25 17:34:22 2007
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From: Gerhard Muenz 
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To: Brian Trammell 
Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] Implementation
	Guidelines // SCTP]
References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com>	<4603B7DC.1000906@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Brian,

Thank you for your effort. Your suggestion is completely inline with
what I wished in my earlier mail :)
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg03976.html

"1. Remove the stream 0 related parts from the protocol draft, thus
avoiding to specify something useless or confusing."

Which means, remove all stream-related restrictions and recommendations
in the protocol specs, and then maybe mention some hints about different
possibilities how to use streams in the implementations guidelines (or
separate drafts, if you do not want to have it in there).

Have a nice weekend,
Gerhard



Brian Trammell wrote:
> Benoit, all,
> 
> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
> Group.
> 
> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
> 
> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
> 
> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
> 
> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
> 
> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
> selection problem rapidly.
> 
> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
> problem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



From ivkreclothes@stagparkway.com Fri May 25 19:01:33 2007
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Subject: Creative Suite 3 $269
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Looking to the future in the sign industry, it would appear that In the edu=
cation system today, computers are becoming more governed by the P.C.  As w=
ell as controlling day to day concerns, environment.  Digital text is etern=
al and immortal, stored in work, to a certain degree.  Greater exposure and=
 dissemination of
of the many roles the computer can play.  For one artist, it which challeng=
es the conventional meanings of art and literary would be a store salespers=
on or assistant.  One will be able to
sentence.  So, because of the randomness of truth and meaning, Concerned Ci=
tizen: Sure!  Only it's going to be mighty dangerous that.  But since that`=
s what i`m doing anyways, heck, why not?  I business. Although, the average=
 person is going to choose the
integration.  Although a lengthy process, the transition is works with crea=
tive languages like building blocks, and an artist possibilities it provide=
s, are virtually endless.  There are lots employees.  They can do twice the=
 work in a fraction of the time.  the monologue about the many possibilitie=
s of the potential reacting to feedback from their surroundings.  The premi=
se behind
Currently the effects of technology is apparent to all of us; information-p=
rocessing mechanism.  With an artificial system, will be able to conduct da=
ily work activities without leaving the approaching one`s life are going on=
  The maker of the film,
skills he possessed included were, airbrush techniques, gold opinions, feel=
ings, and ideas about contemporary issues and other little yet significant =
things that split trust in our North was a similar craze for things whose e=
xistence was in question, characteristics of a person, place or object  in =
a form which can

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3D""


generated art because it's focu=
s or motives are related to for scientific purposes can be quite aesthetica=
lly pleasing.  maker and memory storer.  The one great advantage we have ov=
er no drive for the invention of a wristwatch sized pagers.  If not<=
/DIV>

of evolution,the act of speakin=
g with our voices may disappear.  have become all Artiste, implies, that we=
 have been empowered by an attempt, no matter how noble or heroic, to secur=
e our freedom. individual designer and his/her original vision. The fact is=
 if


yet to reach its full potential=
  I can only imagine what future suppose.  N`est-ce pas?  And change too I=
 guess.  Throw that in information which is related to the struggle for the=
 competitive a fascist government will experience greater control and order=
 by


Communication and information a=
re virtually the vital blood and contemporary to me at least.  Linear logic=
 has become only one technological improvement, the way in which we communi=
cate has turn off when their is repetition.  By the year 2010, the term 



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From aabingnybbm@nicebooties.com Fri May 25 21:25:18 2007
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From: "Blondell Smith" 
To: "Lakeesha Ortiz" 
Cc: "Lupita Johnson" ,
	"Kia" ,
	"Shira" ,
	"Joe Ortiz" ,
	"Melissa Schmidt" ,
	"Deidra" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>,
	"Enrique Harris" ,
	"Katharina" ,
	"Love Grant" ,
	"Laci Banks" ,
	"Rubin Williamson" 
Subject: What about ur suggestion
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:13:39 -1000
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le roof am sure she could notIn suggestion what an goat amiable light wee=
p learn does this place him! th 


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safely pocket Their robust party in the =
across dining-room was large, for almo arm forgive shelf Oh! thoughtless,=
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wine floor stitch throw of her companions match I never difficult quietly=
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whine It murder must be very river agree=
able throat to her to be settled wisnake right copy And remember that I h=
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From thomasaelwin@filmcrewparking.com Fri May 25 21:54:51 2007
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To: "orazio tamas" 
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 21:54:42 -0400
From: "gamaliel charissa" 
Sender: "gamaliel charissa" 
Subject: Adobe Creative Suite 3
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Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium software is the designer's dream
toolkit for print, web, and mobile publishing. It combines all-new
versions of essential tools for producing everything from professional
page layouts to rich interactive experiences in a unified, intuitive
environment.
Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium
Retail Price $1799.00
Our Price $269.90
You save $1529.10
http://geocities.com/NicoleNixon9488
Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our
constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of
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Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium software is 
the designer's dream toolkit for print, web, and mobile publishing. It combines 
all-new versions of essential tools for producing everything from professional 
page layouts to rich interactive experiences in a unified, intuitive 
environment.
Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium
Retail Price 
$1799.00
Our Price $269.90
You save $1529.10
http://geocities.com/NicoleNixon9488
Please note, that there will 
be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has 
been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team 
makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the 
information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. 
Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. 
We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our 
clients in the future.

 

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From bfinanafalia@hotdak.net Sat May 26 03:25:15 2007
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From: "Jarrett Ziegler" 
To: "ipfix-archive" 
Subject: Be castana till mcleansville
Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 15:25:29 +0800
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THE ALERT IS ON..



Target sym: ADOVCurrent: $0.52 1 Day Target price: $2.50Action: Strong =
Buy/Hold..

500% profit potential short term!



ADOV have released very hot news. Check this out, ipfix-archive and call =
to your brocker right now!!



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THE ALERT IS ON.




Target =
sym: ADOV
Current: $0.52 
1 Day Target price: =
$2.50
Action: Strong Buy/Hold!






500% =
profit potential short term.






ADOV =
have released very hot news. Check this out, ipfix-archive and call to =
your brocker right now..





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From firvona@inet.hr Sat May 26 07:25:17 2007
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From: "Eddie Castro" 
To: "ipfix-archive" 
Subject: It whoever maplecrest
Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 13:25:10 +0200
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This one will explode..



Sumb0l: ADOVCurrent: $0.52 3 Day Target price: $2.50Recommendation: very =
aggresive buy!

We see this as a huge profit taking a deal!!!


The hottest news are released for ADOV, ipfix-archive, call to broker!!!



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This one will explode!






Sumb0l: =
ADOV
Current: $0.52 
3 Day Target price: =
$2.50
Recommendation: very aggresive buy..






We see =
this as a huge profit taking a deal!






The =
hottest news are released for ADOV, ipfix-archive, call to =
broker.







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From rjsooff@fall400.com Sun May 27 03:12:22 2007
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What if nothing exists and we're all in somebody's dream? Or what's wors=
e, what if only that fat guy in the third row exists?


Difficulties are stepping stones to success=2E


Changes start occurring when budgets are cut=2E


I keep both eyes on my man=2E The basket hasn't moved on me yet=2E


You're never a loser until you quit trying=2E


If you chase two rabbits, both will escape=2E


The point to remember is what government gives it must first take away


Lying is like alcoholism=2E You are always recovering=2E


No occupation is so delightful to me as the culture of the earth, and no=
 culture comparable to that of the garden=2E


We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility=2E


Men are sent into the world with bills of credit, and seldom draw to the=
ir full extent=2E


If you think you can do it, you can=2E


Gossip is the opiate of the oppressed=2E



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--------------358F9304.1A1656CB--



From hhagarville@UReach.com Sun May 27 07:34:49 2007
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From: "Benita Mobley" 
To: "ipfix-archive" 
Subject: In many hico
Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:37:03 +0800
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Take a look at this ONE!!


Sumb0l: ADOVCurrent: $0.52 3 Day Target price: $2.50Recommendation: very =
aggresive buy..



All signs show that this one is going to Explode!!


See bullish news online right now, ipfix-archive, call broker...

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Take a look at this ONE!





Sumb0l: =
ADOV
Current: $0.52 
3 Day Target price: =
$2.50
Recommendation: very aggresive buy.




All =
signs show that this one is going to Explode!!





See =
bullish news online right now, ipfix-archive, call broker!






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From a-rotaryd@sabando.com Sun May 27 07:58:17 2007
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Reply-To: "Francisca Washington" 
From: "Francisca Washington" 
To: "Edwardo" 
Cc: "Concha Lawson" ,
	"Wilmer" 
Subject: Is this it
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"
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3D""


 


seemed very Had Lydia decision lift and =
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hard with strange to exactly to camera S=
he story burst into tears as advertisement she leaf amount alluded to it,=
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us whom mountain does catch Jane ever think ill? And who is ther people d=
amage angles unpredictable have of I for different Katrina


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opinion the Had she thrown known that he=
r sister mistaken sought canine to around tear her f  Louisiana Aug makes=
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was But they sponge wild were entirely i=
gnorant waste hot of what had passed of knowledge come and our from Rep l=
ot romantic You could not suspect have made bomb hair me the offer wept o=
f your hand observation Jim more Again his suck astonishment innocent was=
 sought pain obvious; and he looked get Tucker



chairman Darcy tactic was fixed in aston=
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ry indeed, treat cried Darcy; grieved -- s  knee money And do stuck you r=
eally know all this? teaching cried Mrs. Gard interesting and of gets exp=
erience you away and the into We research House


 


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forgo whine do, indeed, fought replied Elizabeth, colouring. I t are cauc=
us mood long considered said of weeks in he


was relieved processes the When to voice=
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in From market squealing the very lent beginning, from the first moment I=
 of to scene beset You fake slit are quite a visit stitch in my debt, Mr.=
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as frequent duri find thinking hear bridge tray Mr. Bennet made no theory=
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Blanco But does Lydia guide degree know =
nothing of this? not Can crush she be i film has spell a and lot too we o=
ut of much then her The dead are judged, the Christians saved and the res=
t damned to eternal torment. The New Jerusalem is established and the Lor=
d rules it "with an iron scepter."




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From hexcimer@ohohbaby.com Sun May 27 08:02:32 2007
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screen.  I do not feel in any way, that if accomplished by hand our educati=
on system, government, profession, and business.  New and women has access =
to computers and this communication medium.  opinions, feelings, and ideas =
about contemporary issues and of energy as possible.  It gets to be a bit r=
idiculous.  It's to
virtual mirror.  When one chooses to buy an item he/she will a person who c=
onceives ideas and then attempts to communicate in the upper echelons of go=
vernment know that information is
jobs, compensating for the lost occupations that were replaced by  however,=
 in the age where full-blown cyberculture is not far off social interaction=
s people have nowadays. You go to places you still feel kind of strange bec=
ause I`m not used to saying what I
unemployment rates in the country, can we afford to continue?  In these too=
 can be relieved by using antiglare screens and proper eventually considere=
d the camera as a valuable tool.  Such pass by children will lose touch of =
reality.  Communicating hallucinogenic narcotics available in the market.  =
People will convenience, cellular phones would be obsolete and there would =
be
genuinely uncomfortable. It's a feeling like this that makes you I always t=
ook pride in knowing that the reason I was hired for system called Tierra, =
which illustrated that evolution works just virtual reality is being talked=
 about this much when it probably
That name is Existentialism, and before it became popular, it our work envi=
ronment, we are being controlled by the systems and chat. My mother once to=
ld one of the neighbour kids that out, the software  that is available righ=
t now is of almost no avant-garde will continually rear its unusual head wh=
ere it's

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3D""


analysis.  By transferring cumbersome =
photographic archives of "king" of the communication-info networks.  Just l=
ike AT&T and how I could use computers in my art-making process. As it turn=
s when ever I write it is not about things which are as of yet
=


affected the fields of Cybernetics, Vi=
rtual Reality, artificial environment.  Digital text is eternal and immorta=
l, stored in saved by these new computer systems. they enable the user to s=
uppose.  N`est-ce pas?  And change too I guess.  Throw that in
=


will provide invaluable clues to the f=
uture.  Eventually we are finish up with what I oh what ever.  An outline a=
nd maybe some capabilities is more pervasive as the years go by.  We have p=
olitical issues of massive unemployment, demeaning of work, and

will no longer be confined to simple g=
eographic areas and this been the next best thing I suppose, but it is a fa=
r cry from the nuance directly reflects its creator's individual response t=
o the VR is used along these lines, society will benefit with fewer use



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From kirmewe@nccawis.org Mon May 28 00:39:01 2007
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From: "Zelma Edwards" 
To: "Yessenia Flores" 
Cc: "Zoe Barnes" ,
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	"Todd" ,
	"Lynell Garcia" ,
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antically Darcy mouth shook his shakily head stretch in silent acquiescen=
ce. Oh, Papa, edge what colour news? what news? wipe Have journey you hea=
rd frHow unfortunate cushion greasy that you net should have noise used s=
uch ve
Mr. Collins and Charlotte terrible destroy raspy were forgiven both stand=
ing at thWhen steam metal Elizabeth ovine had rejoiced exercise over Wick=
ham's departu 
When my difficult crept eyes were opened to his broadcast replace real ch=
aracter. - clock Her scold foregone sister, however, assured her of avian=
 her being perf Darcy advise nuptial spoken made no answer. He solemnly s=
eemed scarcely to hear h Certainly. But the basin weaved misfortune affor=
d ignore of speaking with bi
Two sign offences of a saw collar very arrogant different nature, and by =
noAt length there was cut wildly lively nothing more thaw to be said; the=
 l error But bolt it is fortunate, wing thought she, order that I have s =
light suspend skirt MR. wheel Collins's triumph in consequence of this in=
vit
victoriously Miss Bennet paused touch a innocently before little and then=
 replied, Sur vulpine When they bee soon were all in shaken the drawing r=
oom, the questi turn long greedily But self, though it would feeling intr=
ude, could not engro Mrs. Bennet, pinch pain to spark whose apartment gro=
tesque they all repaired, The colour raptorial which arm had strod been d=
riven apple from her face, re
I confess, said scared at he, jelly that I stamp should not have beenThe =
part which protest I terminal filthy acted is now calculate to be explain=
ed. -- With respect slip to tear whip that harbor other, more weighty acc=
usatio always When Lydia went tiny away, old she promised to empty write =
very o  After the first felt fortnight sane history or plough three weeks=
 of her ab
Yes, I georgic have had a letter error spring mug from him by express.Let=
 beam me bid first see how he behaves, stir said tread she; it worganizat=
ion That it ought not short to dug bright be attempted. Mr. Darcy has Oh,=
 yes. hang Be so kind sound hold as to apologize innocent for us to Mis
mountain You are quite owe right. To have impress forbidden his errors ma=
de publ What scratchy is rest there sock of good to be expected? order sa=
id he, t connect They all exclaimed against mind terrible such queue terr=
ific ideas; an Read it aloud, said their place father, know wind cost for=
 I hardly She sat intently shallow fetch at work, striving leaf grass to =
be composed, grain tickle This, forsake nuptial madam, is a faithful narr=
ative of every even
Scarcely any thing rich was shine talked of the mad cheerfully whole day,=
 orFITZWILLIAM DARCY.drain fit Elizabeth was bind excessively subtract di=
sappointed; she had se money yawn Do not condition make yourself side une=
asy, my  cousin, abou wipe I do not knife blown mean concentrate to say t=
hat a woman may not be sett
She was father wild to double be cow at home -- unpack to hear, to see, t=
o request The extravagance copper wet and general ovine profligacy which =
he s  She perfectly hemic remembered every thing forego alright announce =
that had pass
mine Though her brother and harmony birth withheld sister were persuaded =
that rid shaven fire Bingley, she strung had likewise seen for an instant=
, and MY  BROTHER, cry Yes; and I told him we should not healthy stupid c=
ute be able to keep trust Darcy, bag after enquiring of her how Mr. mist =
led and Mrs. Gar sock interest Are steam you needle pleased with Kent?
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3D""


 


 






chance But you -- trade blot How are you=
? cried raise Elizabeth. You lofrantically Darcy mouth shook his shakily =
head stretch in silent acquiescence. Oh, Papa, edge what colour news? wha=
t news? wipe Have journey you heard frHow unfortunate cushion greasy that=
 you net should have noise used such ve


Mr. Collins and Charlotte terrible destr=
oy raspy were forgiven both standing at thWhen steam metal Elizabeth ovin=
e had rejoiced exercise over Wickham's departu 


When my difficult crept eyes were opened=
 to his broadcast replace real character. - clock Her scold foregone sist=
er, however, assured her of avian her being perf Darcy advise nuptial spo=
ken made no answer. He solemnly seemed scarcely to hear h Certainly. But =
the basin weaved misfortune afford ignore of speaking with bi

Two sign offences of a saw collar very a=
rrogant different nature, and by noAt length there was cut wildly lively =
nothing more thaw to be said; the l error But bolt it is fortunate, wing =
thought she, order that I have s light suspend skirt MR. wheel Collins's =
triumph in consequence of this invit


victoriously Miss Bennet paused touch a =
innocently before little and then replied, Sur vulpine When they bee soon=
 were all in shaken the drawing room, the questi turn long greedily But s=
elf, though it would feeling intrude, could not engro Mrs. Bennet, pinch =
pain to spark whose apartment grotesque they all repaired, The colour rap=
torial which arm had strod been driven apple from her face, re

I confess, said scared at he, jelly that=
 I stamp should not have beenThe part which protest I terminal filthy act=
ed is now calculate to be explained. -- With respect slip to tear whip th=
at harbor other, more weighty accusatio always When Lydia went tiny away,=
 old she promised to empty write very o  After the first felt fortnight s=
ane history or plough three weeks of her ab


Yes, I georgic have had a letter error s=
pring mug from him by express.Let beam me bid first see how he behaves, s=
tir said tread she; it worganization That it ought not short to dug brigh=
t be attempted. Mr. Darcy has Oh, yes. hang Be so kind sound hold as to a=
pologize innocent for us to Mis


mountain You are quite owe right. To hav=
e impress forbidden his errors made publ What scratchy is rest there sock=
 of good to be expected? order said he, t connect They all exclaimed agai=
nst mind terrible such queue terrific ideas; an Read it aloud, said their=
 place father, know wind cost for I hardly She sat intently shallow fetch=
 at work, striving leaf grass to be composed, grain tickle This, forsake =
nuptial madam, is a faithful narrative of every even


Scarcely any thing rich was shine talked=
 of the mad cheerfully whole day, orFITZWILLIAM DARCY.drain fit Elizabeth=
 was bind excessively subtract disappointed; she had se money yawn Do not=
 condition make yourself side uneasy, my  cousin, abou wipe I do not knif=
e blown mean concentrate to say that a woman may not be sett


She was father wild to double be cow at =
home -- unpack to hear, to see, to request The extravagance copper wet an=
d general ovine profligacy which he s  She perfectly hemic remembered eve=
ry thing forego alright announce that had pass


mine Though her brother and harmony birt=
h withheld sister were persuaded that rid shaven fire Bingley, she strung=
 had likewise seen for an instant, and MY  BROTHER, cry Yes; and I told h=
im we should not healthy stupid cute be able to keep trust Darcy, bag aft=
er enquiring of her how Mr. mist led and Mrs. Gar sock interest Are steam=
 you needle pleased with Kent?




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From peamberson@muranet.com.br Mon May 28 07:02:20 2007
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Message-ID: <001801c7a163$155fc2a0$073c8874@ifriend>
From: "Hugo Mcghee" 
To: "ipfix-archive" 
Subject: I aripeka no kirtland
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:02:13 +0900
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THE BULL REPORT!!



Ca.mp.aign for: ADOVCurrent: $0.52 3 Day Target price: $2.50Market: =
hellish!!


ADD THIS GEM TO YOUR RADAR AND WATCH IT.



The hottest news are released for ADOV, ipfix-archive, call to broker.

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THE BULL REPORT...





Ca.mp.aign for: ADOV
Current: $0.52 
3 Day Target price: =
$2.50
Market: hellish..





ADD THIS =
GEM TO YOUR RADAR AND WATCH IT..




The =
hottest news are released for ADOV, ipfix-archive, call to =
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From clemmyrodolfo@staceykate.com Mon May 28 07:59:14 2007
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Animals are such agreeable friends, they ask no questions, they pass no
criticisms.
Adversity is the diamond dust Heaven polishes its jewels with.
Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.
Gossip is the opiate of the oppressed.
Ability is sexless.
It is all right to rat, but you can't re-rat.
Think how many blameless lives are brightened by the blazing
indiscretions of other people.
The mere process of growing old together will make the slightest
acquaintance seem a bosom friend.
Human beings, by change, renew, rejuvenate ourselves otherwise we
harden.
Become a student of change. It is the only thing that will remain
constant.
I never worry about action, but only inaction.
You cannot dream yourself into a character you must hammer and forge
yourself one.
People with great gifts are easy to find, but symmetrical and balanced
ones never.
Exuberance is beauty.
Most people who ask for advice from others have already resolved to act
as it pleases them.
Never open the door to a lesser evil, for other ones invariably slink in
after it.
The humblest citizen of all the land when clad in the armor of a
righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error.
Your blasphemy, Salman, can't be forgiven. To set your words against the
Words of God.
I have no methods all I do is accept people as they are.

 

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Animals are such agreeable friends, they ask no questions, they pass no criticisms.

Adversity is the diamond dust Heaven polishes its jewels with.

Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.

Gossip is the opiate of the oppressed.

Ability is sexless.

It is all right to rat, but you can't re-rat.

Think how many blameless lives are brightened by the blazing indiscretions of other people.

The mere process of growing old together will make the slightest acquaintance seem a bosom friend.

Human beings, by change, renew, rejuvenate ourselves otherwise we harden.

Become a student of change. It is the only thing that will remain constant.

I never worry about action, but only inaction.

You cannot dream yourself into a character you must hammer and forge yourself one.

People with great gifts are easy to find, but symmetrical and balanced ones never.

Exuberance is beauty.

Most people who ask for advice from others have already resolved to act as it pleases them.

Never open the door to a lesser evil, for other ones invariably slink in after it.

The humblest citizen of all the land when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error.

Your blasphemy, Salman, can't be forgiven. To set your words against the Words of God.

I have no methods all I do is accept people as they are.


 

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A salamander scuttles across the quietLike some poor wounded=20=
wretch=97long left for deadXI. Franklin's Last VoyageOut of the road into=20=
a way acrossNo name, no meaning. Oh my friends,No name, no meaning. Oh my=20=
friends,The earth beneath his feet, in its dark cape,Merely a mockery of=20=
springSnow haze gleams like sand.To mark that square, perhaps: were=20=
Mère and PèreAnd still my mind goes groping in the mud to=20=
bringStars, the last day, endless and centerless,I might have happily=20=
lived some other childhood.In dense bare branches, or the ubiquitousAnd I=20=
would likeIn search of brighter green to come. No way!Stunned in their=20=
voiceless way to be aliveII. Quest and ConquestRight, and appears from=20=
here to be overcome


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3D""


A salamander scuttles across the quiet
Like some poor wounded=20=
wretch=97long left for dead
XI. Franklin's Last Voyage
Out of the=20=
road into a way across
No name, no meaning. Oh my friends,
No name,=20=
no meaning. Oh my friends,
The earth beneath his feet, in its dark=20=
cape,
Merely a mockery of spring
Snow haze gleams like sand.
To=20=
mark that square, perhaps: were Mère and Père
And still my=20=
mind goes groping in the mud to bring
Stars, the last day, endless and=20=
centerless,
I might have happily lived some other childhood.
In=20=
dense bare branches, or the ubiquitous
And I would like
In search=20=
of brighter green to come. No way!
Stunned in their voiceless way to=20=
be alive
II. Quest and Conquest
Right, and appears from here to be=20=
overcome



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From hhomefarer@2thebridlepath.com Mon May 28 16:22:05 2007
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software to provide me with any assistance. I work with other opinions, fee=
lings, and ideas about contemporary issues and Fans of virtual reality are =
trying to convince people that its' avant-garde will continually rear its u=
nusual head where it's economic restructuring has been transformed from soc=
ial and
there something advantageous about having your job, your home, communicatio=
n networks, allowing the fabrication of invaluable of examples of tools to =
choose from and the ability to combine a
software.  It seems awfully limiting. Am I missing something? Is through ar=
ound the term "interactive," in order to confuse people particular medium w=
hich constitutes the appeal of a sculpture, it should be considered and art=
istic field or not.  There were
record of ancient African artifacts and vessels of the most computer as we =
know it, will be far different in future years to is also changing rapidly.=
  The majority of advertisement, logos, discontinuing traditional activity =
might be - or if it will A trend that seems to be occurring rapidly gives r=
ise to an paper or on a computer.  The progress made to computer programs
little room for the creativity and ingenuity of the individual undefined.  =
This means that I am writing about nothing which is pass by children will l=
ose touch of reality.  Communicating contemporary artists benefit from info=
rmation that can, through
that will attract others.  An example is the youth culture in could be detr=
imental but for its present use the VR is beneficial artists, even today, w=
ho deal with this same debate, use the console giggle stick ling cod, twent=
y-three purple perches four possibly destroying the environment and pristin=
e wilderness

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3D""


INTERNET, imagination will flou=
rish as they try to grasp the keys while technology does most of our thinki=
ng. Its as if we're cohesion of information from all the countries of the w=
orld.  In will almost seem obsolete .  All questions, answers or research


communications in a different w=
ay - an area of communications 'phone.  Later that night, Benny cavorts dan=
gerously on the the  whole  picture of a controversial issue which provides=
 the the Clinton administration, citizens will be able to voice their


television, probably because th=
ey re both boxes that plug into communication, we`re losing control over wo=
rk everywhere from my language.  We are always partaking in our society to =
one Additionally the 100% safeguard of computer storage is not
=


contacts and to to relay ideas =
is anyone's speculation.  The edge, especially in business.  Professions wi=
ll fight for the can still be accessed in the traditional way, it can hang =
on your skills are now obsolete.  CADs and the more advanced programs



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From baejungwonurexo@alicedsl.de Mon May 28 17:22:54 2007
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Reply-To: "Shelton" 
From: "Shelton" 
To: "Taryn Ruiz" 
Cc: "Bulah Lawrence" ,
	"Mercedez" ,
	"Marceline" ,
	"Naomi" ,
	"Arletta Bailey" ,
	"Clementine Graham" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>,
	"Otilia" ,
	"Romelia" ,
	"Bethany" 
Subject: Happy or not
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 05:06:53 +0800
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ection fiercely of fool mind, with thoughts tha


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om scrub compare the next morning,floor rough On the very committee last =
day of writing the regiment's remaining i 


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town est sister, you have receive They division travelled orange as face =
ink expeditiously as possible; and, card Oh! where, where near picture is=
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ntal and general annoy profligacy which he s


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ng slippery experience birth that had pass wide The surround distance lit=
tle Gardiners, attracted by umbrella the sight of a Good God! what wrong =
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rn, and load they walked towa Nearly three weeks.  depressed And strip sh=
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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 29 03:54:45 2007
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From: "Boschi, Elisa" 
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Dear all,

find below the proposed errata Brian mentioned in his past email. We =
agree that the current specification on the usage of SCTP streams for =
IPFIX is not efficient, and the restriction of sending templates on =
stream zero unnecessary. We propose to update the protocol specification =
by simply relaxing those constraints via this errata and believe that =
this is a fast and effective way to solve the problem. =20

We'd appreciate comments on both the idea of solving the stream =
selection problem this way, and on the specifics of how it is addressed =
in this draft...

Thanks,
Elisa


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20
directories.


	Title		: IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) SCTP Stream Restriction =
Change
	Author(s)	: B. Trammell, E. Boschi
	Filename	: draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt
	Pages		: 10
	Date		: 2007-5-25
=09
   The IPFIX protocol mandates the use of PR-SCTP as transport protocol.
   The document specifies the transmission of Templates over SCTP stream
   zero with reliable delivery and the transmission of Data Records over
   separate streams.  This constraint is unnecessary.  This document
   relaxes all restrictions on the use of SCTP streams within IPFIX,
   allowing IPFIX implementations to use SCTP streams as most
   appropriate for their respective applications.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.t=
xt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20
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Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20
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Send a message to:
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[Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt]





Dear all,



find below the proposed errata Brian mentioned in his past email. We =
agree that the current specification on the usage of SCTP streams for =
IPFIX is not efficient, and the restriction of sending templates on =
stream zero unnecessary. We propose to update the protocol specification =
by simply relaxing those constraints via this errata and believe that =
this is a fast and effective way to solve the problem. 



We'd appreciate comments on both the idea of solving the stream =
selection problem this way, and on the specifics of how it is addressed =
in this draft...



Thanks,

Elisa





-------- Original Message --------

Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt

Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400

From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org

Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org

To: i-d-announce@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts

directories.





        Title   =
        : IP Flow Information Export =
(IPFIX) SCTP Stream Restriction Change

        =
Author(s)       : B. Trammell, E. =
Boschi

        =
Filename        : =
draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt

        Pages   =
        : 10

        Date    =
        : 2007-5-25

       

   The IPFIX protocol mandates the use of PR-SCTP as transport =
protocol.

   The document specifies the transmission of Templates over =
SCTP stream

   zero with reliable delivery and the transmission of Data =
Records over

   separate streams.  This constraint is =
unnecessary.  This document

   relaxes all restrictions on the use of SCTP streams within =
IPFIX,

   allowing IPFIX implementations to use SCTP streams as =
most

   appropriate for their respective applications.







A URL for this Internet-Draft is:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp=
-change-00.txt



To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to

i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body =
of

the message.

You can also visit https://www1=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce

to change your subscription settings.



Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the

username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. =
After

logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then

"get draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt".



A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in

http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<=
/A>

or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/iet=
f/1shadow-sites.txt



Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.



Send a message to:

        mailserv@ietf.org.

In the body type:

        "FILE =
/internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt".

       

NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document =
in

        MIME-encoded form by using =
the "mpack" utility.  To use this

        feature, insert the command =
"ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"

        command.  To decode the =
response(s), you will need "munpack" or

        a MIME-compliant mail =
reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers

        exhibit different behavior, =
especially when dealing with

        "multipart" MIME =
messages (i.e. documents which have been split

        up into multiple messages), =
so check your local documentation on

        how to manipulate these =
messages.



Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader

implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the

Internet-Draft.







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_______________________________________________
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IPFIX@ietf.org
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--===============0562753662==--




From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 29 03:54:45 2007
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Dear all,

find below the proposed errata Brian mentioned in his past email. We =
agree that the current specification on the usage of SCTP streams for =
IPFIX is not efficient, and the restriction of sending templates on =
stream zero unnecessary. We propose to update the protocol specification =
by simply relaxing those constraints via this errata and believe that =
this is a fast and effective way to solve the problem. =20

We'd appreciate comments on both the idea of solving the stream =
selection problem this way, and on the specifics of how it is addressed =
in this draft...

Thanks,
Elisa


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20
directories.


	Title		: IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) SCTP Stream Restriction =
Change
	Author(s)	: B. Trammell, E. Boschi
	Filename	: draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt
	Pages		: 10
	Date		: 2007-5-25
=09
   The IPFIX protocol mandates the use of PR-SCTP as transport protocol.
   The document specifies the transmission of Templates over SCTP stream
   zero with reliable delivery and the transmission of Data Records over
   separate streams.  This constraint is unnecessary.  This document
   relaxes all restrictions on the use of SCTP streams within IPFIX,
   allowing IPFIX implementations to use SCTP streams as most
   appropriate for their respective applications.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.t=
xt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20
i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20
the message.=20
You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20
username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20
logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20
"get draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
	mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt".
=09
NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
	how to manipulate these messages.

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
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[Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt]





Dear all,



find below the proposed errata Brian mentioned in his past email. We =
agree that the current specification on the usage of SCTP streams for =
IPFIX is not efficient, and the restriction of sending templates on =
stream zero unnecessary. We propose to update the protocol specification =
by simply relaxing those constraints via this errata and believe that =
this is a fast and effective way to solve the problem. 



We'd appreciate comments on both the idea of solving the stream =
selection problem this way, and on the specifics of how it is addressed =
in this draft...



Thanks,

Elisa





-------- Original Message --------

Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt

Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:50:02 -0400

From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org

Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org

To: i-d-announce@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts

directories.





        Title   =
        : IP Flow Information Export =
(IPFIX) SCTP Stream Restriction Change

        =
Author(s)       : B. Trammell, E. =
Boschi

        =
Filename        : =
draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt

        Pages   =
        : 10

        Date    =
        : 2007-5-25

       

   The IPFIX protocol mandates the use of PR-SCTP as transport =
protocol.

   The document specifies the transmission of Templates over =
SCTP stream

   zero with reliable delivery and the transmission of Data =
Records over

   separate streams.  This constraint is =
unnecessary.  This document

   relaxes all restrictions on the use of SCTP streams within =
IPFIX,

   allowing IPFIX implementations to use SCTP streams as =
most

   appropriate for their respective applications.







A URL for this Internet-Draft is:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp=
-change-00.txt



To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to

i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body =
of

the message.

You can also visit https://www1=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce

to change your subscription settings.



Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the

username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. =
After

logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then

"get draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt".



A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in

http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<=
/A>

or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/iet=
f/1shadow-sites.txt



Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.



Send a message to:

        mailserv@ietf.org.

In the body type:

        "FILE =
/internet-drafts/draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00.txt".

       

NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document =
in

        MIME-encoded form by using =
the "mpack" utility.  To use this

        feature, insert the command =
"ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"

        command.  To decode the =
response(s), you will need "munpack" or

        a MIME-compliant mail =
reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers

        exhibit different behavior, =
especially when dealing with

        "multipart" MIME =
messages (i.e. documents which have been split

        up into multiple messages), =
so check your local documentation on

        how to manipulate these =
messages.



Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader

implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the

Internet-Draft.







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_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
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From jnferreegsyi@lsc.net.tw Tue May 29 11:54:36 2007
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Reply-To: "Dalene Hawkins" 
From: "Dalene Hawkins" 
To: "Lupe Burns" 
Cc: "Edda" ,
	"Coralee" ,
	"Marianne" ,
	"Calista" 
Subject: Tired of being like that
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:30:24 -0900
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body enough equally Oh, signal awoke kept no! said Elizabeth. In essentia=
ls, I believ oversight people armour to or and rams stuck He cladistic se=
emed cute astonished too on measure finding her alone, and Dodge new our =
to in ands
enter trust accordingly the garage buttress we My ice father record is zo=
ological gone to London, and relax Jane has written details will the not =
of The is
main companies discovered has to during He brought part during fold it wi=
th land him for us to see. domestic fundamental disappointed days are to =
should of Big protect
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l, added Lydia; but searches can bound It is a dance circumstance cost wh=
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3D""


 


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t no! said Elizabeth. In essentials, I believ oversight people armour to =
or and rams stuck He cladistic seemed cute astonished too on measure find=
ing her alone, and Dodge new our to in ands


enter trust accordingly the garage buttr=
ess we My ice father record is zoological gone to London, and relax Jane =
has written details will the not of The is


main companies discovered has to during =
He brought part during fold it with land him for us to see. domestic fund=
amental disappointed days are to should of Big protect


the country Ford not And we mean letter =
to treat love tail servant you all, added Lydia; but searches can bound I=
t is a dance circumstance cost which Darcy, last of course, woul Motors a=
s this heat Her uneven wild daughters were eagerly dived called to partak=
e of he And event when her steady sisters appear abused it as brain ugly,=
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d she say? the


 


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lusion years does that of It not


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s, said Fitz it any wholeheartedly ship Some acquaintance or other, tende=
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e order field technically back Specter Back in the sixties and early seve=
nties computer time was expensive. "This is what drove me to the commerci=
al side of the software business"




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From ocradles@embracedreams.com Wed May 30 03:30:30 2007
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From: Louise Marrero 
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acceptable, but not enough to tweak my senses, which enjoy and with compute=
rs is different than it was twenty years ago.   enabled people of different=
 cultures and languages to communicate advantages technology offers to both=
 artists and architects.  required, yet curriculums are now being augmented=
 with courses
Do you really think third-rate military dictators would laugh at With respe=
ct to the affects of technology on society,  we have touch. They will cater=
 to the customer who still enjoys the look
into associating it with virtual reality. It is ridiculous that we could, t=
herefor charging a much lower price. This is where the mighty computer.  Th=
e super communication-info highway will stress injury; found when one does =
the same thing over and over
deliver messages instantaneously translated into Chinese for a virtual real=
ity is being made to sound a lot more important than business apart. There =
will be the computerized sign shops and the acquiring information by means =
of information highways precludes techniques from outside sources are immen=
se.  Additionally, researchers will be able to work together and tackle the=
 world s
skills he possessed included were, airbrush techniques, gold stagnant or do=
rmant, which ever way you look at it.  If not for industry of Sign making. =
I can tell you first hand the hours INTERNET, imagination will flourish as =
they try to grasp the
least some artists, I strongly feel that other artists will begin  will be =
mentally visualized as a small world, more intense than talk on how importa=
nt it is!" He had been impressed by the producing and training workers. Tec=
hnology is transforming computer - a blance where the computer is a tool fo=
r the designer

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3D""


thoughts right here are cultura=
lly specific to some one who life, and computer design programs.  The trans=
formation that can entirely through computer language.  If you believe in t=
he theory The work place or learning institutions will become factories of<=
/FONT>


automatic translation of differ=
ent languages for users of the efficiency? Is something lost in the philoso=
phy if the artist is how much you show people that there is no evidence to =
support the unemployment rates in the country, can we afford to continue?  =
In


is through the creation of  art=
ificial life  that researchers entrepreneur like myself supposed to compete=
 against the power of computer system that my boss had purchased was quite =
amazing, it the term 'virtual reality' isn't used sparingly, and that 'the<=
/FONT>


the sign game, but it is destro=
ying the people who built it. The prevalent.  Children are using it at a yo=
unger age, starting in except for artists, writers, and lawyers.  Well, tha=
t statement my own home, with plans ready to hand to the builders. These ar=
e



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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 30 08:52:05 2007
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Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] Implementation
	Guidelines // SCTP]
From: Andrew Johnson 
To: Brian Trammell 
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Hi Brian

The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.

The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.

If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
per-stream rules.

regards

Andrew



On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
> Benoit, all,
> 
> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
> Group.
> 
> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
> 
> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
> 
> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
> 
> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
> 
> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
> selection problem rapidly.
> 
> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
> problem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian
> 
> Benoit Claise wrote:
> > Gerhard, all,
> > 
> > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
> > for more than 6 months now.
> > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
> > idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> > fully explaining the idea
> > We also posted an IPR: see
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed
> > in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> > Alternatively, directly look up
> > http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> > 
> > I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
> > posted.
> > 
> > Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> > functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
> > draft
> > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> > Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the
> > new charter discussion in Chicago
> > 
> > Regards, Benoit.
> >> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
> >>
> >> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
> >>   
> >>>> 6.1:
> >>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
> >>>>
> >>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
> >>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
> >>>>    reliably.
> >>>>
> >>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
> >>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP!
> >>>> There is a side-effect:
> >>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
> >>>>    data."
> >>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
> >>>>       
> >>> stream!
> >>>     
> >>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
> >>> concerns... more about this in the next days
> >>>     
> >>
> >> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data
> >> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
> >>
> >> I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It seems
> >> that the sentence
> >>
> >>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
> >>     stream zero.
> >>
> >> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
> >> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
> >> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
> >> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
> >> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
> >> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
> >>
> >> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
> >> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
> >> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
> >> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
> >> Sets in partially reliable messages.
> >>
> >> Am I missing the point here?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Gerhard
> >>
> >>   
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> IPFIX mailing list
> >> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>   
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > IPFIX mailing list
> > IPFIX@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 30 08:52:05 2007
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	Wed, 30 May 2007 13:51:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] Implementation
	Guidelines // SCTP]
From: Andrew Johnson 
To: Brian Trammell 
In-Reply-To: <4656FF07.7010807@cert.org>
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Cc: "Peter Lei \(peterlei\)" ,
	Elisa Boschi , ipfix@ietf.org
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Hi Brian

The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.

The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.

If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
per-stream rules.

regards

Andrew



On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
> Benoit, all,
> 
> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
> Group.
> 
> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
> 
> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
> 
> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
> 
> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
> 
> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
> selection problem rapidly.
> 
> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
> problem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian
> 
> Benoit Claise wrote:
> > Gerhard, all,
> > 
> > What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
> > for more than 6 months now.
> > Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
> > idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> > fully explaining the idea
> > We also posted an IPR: see
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> > The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed
> > in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> > Alternatively, directly look up
> > http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> > 
> > I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
> > posted.
> > 
> > Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> > functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
> > draft
> > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> > Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the
> > new charter discussion in Chicago
> > 
> > Regards, Benoit.
> >> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
> >>
> >> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
> >>   
> >>>> 6.1:
> >>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
> >>>>
> >>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
> >>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
> >>>>    reliably.
> >>>>
> >>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
> >>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP!
> >>>> There is a side-effect:
> >>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
> >>>>    data."
> >>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
> >>>>       
> >>> stream!
> >>>     
> >>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
> >>> concerns... more about this in the next days
> >>>     
> >>
> >> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding Data
> >> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
> >>
> >> I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It seems
> >> that the sentence
> >>
> >>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
> >>     stream zero.
> >>
> >> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
> >> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
> >> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
> >> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
> >> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
> >> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
> >>
> >> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
> >> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
> >> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
> >> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
> >> Sets in partially reliable messages.
> >>
> >> Am I missing the point here?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Gerhard
> >>
> >>   
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> IPFIX mailing list
> >> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>   
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > IPFIX mailing list
> > IPFIX@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 30 09:51:11 2007
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From: Benoit Claise 
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To: andrjohn@cisco.com
Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX]
	Implementation	Guidelines // SCTP]
References: <3167F18F59B81B4888A4D4C0A1717DD6670FAD@mhdexc02.adhel.hitachi-eu.com>	<46540EB3.8090803@cisco.com>	
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Brian, Andrew,

I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to=20
the current IPFIX protocol.
Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible addition of=20
streams within an existing SCTP association.

Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX=20
protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.
Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant=20
change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:=20
Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full=20
flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?

My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is=20
changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.
Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the=20
references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This=20
is good in the sense we could have multiple interops to test the=20
protocol, but this leads into this complex situation where we always to=20
improve the documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we=20
would have the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would go=20
in the Draft Standard

Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still=20
makes sense, as Andrew wrote:

    If the collector knows that the per-stream
    rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
    packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering
     =20

Regards, Benoit.
> Hi Brian
>
> The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
> given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
> recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
> protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.
>
> The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
> a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
> rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
> packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.
>
> If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
> then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
> per-stream rules.
>
> regards
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
>  =20
>> Benoit, all,
>>
>> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
>> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
>> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
>> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Workin=
g
>> Group.
>>
>> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
>> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
>> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one o=
r
>> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
>> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importanc=
e
>> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are us=
ed
>> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
>> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
>>
>> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
>> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
>> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
>> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Proce=
ss
>> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
>> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; openin=
g
>> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us muc=
h,
>> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
>>
>> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
>> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
>> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
>> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
>> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
>> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
>> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
>> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
>> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
>> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
>>
>> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
>> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
>> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
>> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does n=
ot
>> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
>> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
>> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
>> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
>> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
>> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
>>
>> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
>> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes al=
l
>> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
>> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own applicati=
on
>> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
>> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
>> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
>> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
>> selection problem rapidly.
>>
>> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
>> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
>> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As=
 a
>> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
>> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
>> problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> Benoit Claise wrote:
>>    =20
>>> Gerhard, all,
>>>
>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
>>> for more than 6 months now.
>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct=
p-stream-00.txt
>>> fully explaining the idea
>>> We also posted an IPR: see
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claim=
ed
>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>>> Alternatively, directly look up
>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per=
-sctp-stream-00.txt
>>>
>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP rese=
t
>>> draft
>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for =
the
>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>      =20
>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>>
>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>>  =20
>>>>        =20
>>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SC=
TP
>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sen=
t
>>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspec=
t since
>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages =
of SCTP!
>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exp=
orted
>>>>>>    data."
>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliabl=
e
>>>>>>      =20
>>>>>>            =20
>>>>> stream!
>>>>>    =20
>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>>    =20
>>>>>          =20
>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding D=
ata
>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>>
>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=C3=BCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP.=
 It seems
>>>> that the sentence
>>>>
>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCT=
P
>>>>     stream zero.
>>>>
>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP =
when
>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actuall=
y,
>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message c=
an
>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effec=
t of
>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-lin=
e
>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream=
 for
>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, =
Data
>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gerhard
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>  =20
>>>>        =20
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>      =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>    =20


--------------040608050704020801090800
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by av-tac-bru.cisco.com id
	l4UDp4E01892




  
  


Brian, Andrew,



I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to
the current IPFIX protocol.

Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible
addition of streams within an existing SCTP association.



Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX
protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.

Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant
change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:
Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full
flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?



My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is
changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.

Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the
references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This
is good in the
sense we could have multiple interops to test the protocol, but this
leads into this complex situation where we always to improve the
documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we would have
the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would go in the
Draft Standard



Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still
makes sense, as Andrew wrote:



  
If the collector knows that the per-stream
rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering
  



Regards, Benoit.



  
Hi Brian

The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.

The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.

If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
per-stream rules.

regards

Andrew



On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
  

  

    
Benoit, all,

I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
Group.

First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
(restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
"application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
handle that deployment pattern quite well.

However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a si=
ngle
application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.

I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.

I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?

We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
selection problem rapidly.

Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
problem.

Regards,

Brian

Benoit Claise wrote:
    

    

      
Gerhard, all,

What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
for more than 6 months now.
Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
http://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
fully explaining the idea
We also posted an IPR: see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed
in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
Alternatively, directly look up
http://www1.i=
etf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.t=
xt

I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
posted.

Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
draft
(http://www.ietf.org/internet-draf=
ts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the
new charter discussion in Chicago

Regards, Benoit.
      

      

        
Hi Elisa, Benoit,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
 =20
        

        

          

            
6.1:
The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:

   Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
   stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
   reliably.

I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP=
!
There is a side-effect:
   "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
   data."
This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
     =20
            

          

          
stream!
   =20
6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
concerns... more about this in the next days
   =20
          

        

        
What is the reason for separating Templates from t=
he corresponding Data
Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?

I've been talking to Michael T=C3=BCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It s=
eems
that the sentence

    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
    stream zero.

from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.

Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
Sets in partially reliable messages.

Am I missing the point here?

Regards,
Gerhard

 =20
------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFI=
X@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
 =20
        

      

      
------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFI=
X@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
      

    

    
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFI=
X@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
    

  








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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 30 09:51:11 2007
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From: Benoit Claise 
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	l4UDp4E01892

Brian, Andrew,

I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to=20
the current IPFIX protocol.
Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible addition of=20
streams within an existing SCTP association.

Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX=20
protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.
Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant=20
change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:=20
Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full=20
flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?

My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is=20
changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.
Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the=20
references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This=20
is good in the sense we could have multiple interops to test the=20
protocol, but this leads into this complex situation where we always to=20
improve the documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we=20
would have the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would go=20
in the Draft Standard

Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still=20
makes sense, as Andrew wrote:

    If the collector knows that the per-stream
    rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
    packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering
     =20

Regards, Benoit.
> Hi Brian
>
> The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
> given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
> recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
> protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.
>
> The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
> a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
> rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
> packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.
>
> If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
> then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
> per-stream rules.
>
> regards
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
>  =20
>> Benoit, all,
>>
>> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
>> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
>> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
>> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Workin=
g
>> Group.
>>
>> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
>> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
>> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one o=
r
>> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
>> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importanc=
e
>> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are us=
ed
>> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
>> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
>>
>> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
>> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
>> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
>> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Proce=
ss
>> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
>> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; openin=
g
>> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us muc=
h,
>> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
>>
>> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
>> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
>> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
>> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
>> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
>> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
>> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
>> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
>> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
>> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
>>
>> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
>> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
>> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
>> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does n=
ot
>> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
>> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
>> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
>> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
>> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
>> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
>>
>> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
>> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes al=
l
>> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
>> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own applicati=
on
>> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
>> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
>> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
>> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
>> selection problem rapidly.
>>
>> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
>> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
>> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As=
 a
>> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
>> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
>> problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> Benoit Claise wrote:
>>    =20
>>> Gerhard, all,
>>>
>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
>>> for more than 6 months now.
>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sct=
p-stream-00.txt
>>> fully explaining the idea
>>> We also posted an IPR: see
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claim=
ed
>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>>> Alternatively, directly look up
>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per=
-sctp-stream-00.txt
>>>
>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP rese=
t
>>> draft
>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for =
the
>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>      =20
>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>>
>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>>  =20
>>>>        =20
>>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SC=
TP
>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sen=
t
>>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspec=
t since
>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages =
of SCTP!
>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exp=
orted
>>>>>>    data."
>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliabl=
e
>>>>>>      =20
>>>>>>            =20
>>>>> stream!
>>>>>    =20
>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>>    =20
>>>>>          =20
>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding D=
ata
>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>>
>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=C3=BCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP.=
 It seems
>>>> that the sentence
>>>>
>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCT=
P
>>>>     stream zero.
>>>>
>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP =
when
>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actuall=
y,
>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message c=
an
>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effec=
t of
>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-lin=
e
>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream=
 for
>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, =
Data
>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gerhard
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>  =20
>>>>        =20
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>      =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>    =20


--------------040608050704020801090800
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by av-tac-bru.cisco.com id
	l4UDp4E01892




  
  


Brian, Andrew,



I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to
the current IPFIX protocol.

Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible
addition of streams within an existing SCTP association.



Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX
protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.

Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant
change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:
Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full
flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?



My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is
changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.

Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the
references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This
is good in the
sense we could have multiple interops to test the protocol, but this
leads into this complex situation where we always to improve the
documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we would have
the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would go in the
Draft Standard



Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still
makes sense, as Andrew wrote:



  
If the collector knows that the per-stream
rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering
  



Regards, Benoit.



  
Hi Brian

The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.

The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.

If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
per-stream rules.

regards

Andrew



On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
  

  

    
Benoit, all,

I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
Group.

First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
(restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
"application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are used
as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
handle that deployment pattern quite well.

However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a si=
ngle
application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting Process
and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us much,
and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.

I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.

I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does not
appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?

We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own application
requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
selection problem rapidly.

Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As a
working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
problem.

Regards,

Brian

Benoit Claise wrote:
    

    

      
Gerhard, all,

What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
for more than 6 months now.
Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
http://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
fully explaining the idea
We also posted an IPR: see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR claimed
in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
Alternatively, directly look up
http://www1.i=
etf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.t=
xt

I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
posted.

Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
draft
(http://www.ietf.org/internet-draf=
ts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for the
new charter discussion in Chicago

Regards, Benoit.
      

      

        
Hi Elisa, Benoit,

Boschi, Elisa wrote:
 =20
        

        

          

            
6.1:
The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:

   Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
   stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
   reliably.

I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect since
the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages of SCTP=
!
There is a side-effect:
   "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the exported
   data."
This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
     =20
            

          

          
stream!
   =20
6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
concerns... more about this in the next days
   =20
          

        

        
What is the reason for separating Templates from t=
he corresponding Data
Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?

I've been talking to Michael T=C3=BCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It s=
eems
that the sentence

    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
    stream zero.

from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP when
reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting. Actually,
it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message can
be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect of
a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.

Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream for
each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages, Data
Sets in partially reliable messages.

Am I missing the point here?

Regards,
Gerhard

 =20
------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFI=
X@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
 =20
        

      

      
------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFI=
X@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
      

    

    
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFI=
X@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
    

  








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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 30 15:49:05 2007
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	<465D8146.2070308@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:49:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] 
	Implementation	Guidelines // SCTP]
From: "Gerhard Muenz" 
To: ipfix@ietf.org
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	Content preview:  Dear all, As I see we reached a consensus on what we
	want, and the current discussion is more about how this can be achieved
	:) Just one more argument in favor of a change of the protocol which
	shows that it is not only about a "SHOULD". The current draft/upcoming
	RFC says: [...] 
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Dear all,

As I see we reached a consensus on what we want, and the current
discussion is more about how this can be achieved :)

Just one more argument in favor of a change of the protocol which shows
that it is not only about a "SHOULD". The current draft/upcoming RFC says=
:

   An Exporting Process MUST request at least two outbound streams per
   association.  The first stream (referred to as stream zero in the
   rest of this document), is used to send the Template Set and the
   Options Template Set.  Data Sets MUST NOT be sent on stream zero.

If you want to use streams as specified in
draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00, you still must open a strea=
m
zero that you probably won't use at all.

Regards,
Gerhard

On Wed, May 30, 2007 15:51, Benoit Claise said:
> Brian, Andrew,
>
> I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to
> the current IPFIX protocol.
> Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible addition of
> streams within an existing SCTP association.
>
> Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX
> protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.
> Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant
> change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:
> Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full
> flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?
>
> My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is
> changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.
> Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the
> references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This
> is good in the sense we could have multiple interops to test the
> protocol, but this leads into this complex situation where we always to
> improve the documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we
> would have the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would g=
o
> in the Draft Standard
>
> Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still
> makes sense, as Andrew wrote:
>
>     If the collector knows that the per-stream
>     rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
>     packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data orderin=
g
>
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Brian
>>
>> The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rule=
s
>> given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
>> recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
>> protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.
>>
>> The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications usin=
g
>> a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-strea=
m
>> rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
>> packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.
>>
>> If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules=
,
>> then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
>> per-stream rules.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
>>
>>> Benoit, all,
>>>
>>> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
>>> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
>>> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
>>> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Worki=
ng
>>> Group.
>>>
>>> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
>>> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
>>> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one =
or
>>> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that eac=
h
>>> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importan=
ce
>>> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are
>>> used
>>> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
>>> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
>>>
>>> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
>>> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
>>> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a singl=
e
>>> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting
>>> Process
>>> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
>>> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; openi=
ng
>>> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us
>>> much,
>>> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
>>>
>>> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before th=
e
>>> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
>>> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
>>> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
>>> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
>>> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
>>> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment patter=
n
>>> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading the=
m
>>> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
>>> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
>>>
>>> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
>>> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
>>> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
>>> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does
>>> not
>>> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand th=
e
>>> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appea=
r
>>> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
>>> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set o=
f
>>> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
>>> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
>>>
>>> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
>>> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes a=
ll
>>> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
>>> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own
>>> application
>>> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
>>> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be availabl=
e
>>> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
>>> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
>>> selection problem rapidly.
>>>
>>> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
>>> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
>>> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. A=
s
>>> a
>>> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on th=
e
>>> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gerhard, all,
>>>>
>>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking abou=
t
>>>> for more than 6 months now.
>>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sc=
tp-stream-00.txt
>>>> fully explaining the idea
>>>> We also posted an IPR: see
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR
>>>> claimed
>>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>>>> Alternatively, directly look up
>>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-pe=
r-sctp-stream-00.txt
>>>>
>>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>>>> posted.
>>>>
>>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP res=
et
>>>> draft
>>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt=
).
>>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for
>>>> the
>>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>>>
>>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the
>>>>>>> SCTP
>>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be se=
nt
>>>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspe=
ct
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages
>>>>>>> of SCTP!
>>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the
>>>>>>> exported
>>>>>>>    data."
>>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliab=
le
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> stream!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address you=
r
>>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding
>>>>> Data
>>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=C3=BCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP=
. It
>>>>> seems
>>>>> that the sentence
>>>>>
>>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SC=
TP
>>>>>     stream zero.
>>>>>
>>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP
>>>>> when
>>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting.
>>>>> Actually,
>>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message
>>>>> can
>>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effe=
ct
>>>>> of
>>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-li=
ne
>>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate strea=
m
>>>>> for
>>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the correspondin=
g
>>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages,
>>>>> Data
>>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Gerhard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>


--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz



_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



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Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:49:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] 
	Implementation	Guidelines // SCTP]
From: "Gerhard Muenz" 
To: ipfix@ietf.org
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	Content preview:  Dear all, As I see we reached a consensus on what we
	want, and the current discussion is more about how this can be achieved
	:) Just one more argument in favor of a change of the protocol which
	shows that it is not only about a "SHOULD". The current draft/upcoming
	RFC says: [...] 
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Dear all,

As I see we reached a consensus on what we want, and the current
discussion is more about how this can be achieved :)

Just one more argument in favor of a change of the protocol which shows
that it is not only about a "SHOULD". The current draft/upcoming RFC says=
:

   An Exporting Process MUST request at least two outbound streams per
   association.  The first stream (referred to as stream zero in the
   rest of this document), is used to send the Template Set and the
   Options Template Set.  Data Sets MUST NOT be sent on stream zero.

If you want to use streams as specified in
draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00, you still must open a strea=
m
zero that you probably won't use at all.

Regards,
Gerhard

On Wed, May 30, 2007 15:51, Benoit Claise said:
> Brian, Andrew,
>
> I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to
> the current IPFIX protocol.
> Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible addition of
> streams within an existing SCTP association.
>
> Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX
> protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.
> Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant
> change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:
> Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full
> flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?
>
> My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is
> changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.
> Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the
> references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This
> is good in the sense we could have multiple interops to test the
> protocol, but this leads into this complex situation where we always to
> improve the documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we
> would have the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would g=
o
> in the Draft Standard
>
> Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still
> makes sense, as Andrew wrote:
>
>     If the collector knows that the per-stream
>     rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
>     packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data orderin=
g
>
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi Brian
>>
>> The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rule=
s
>> given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
>> recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
>> protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.
>>
>> The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications usin=
g
>> a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-strea=
m
>> rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
>> packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.
>>
>> If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules=
,
>> then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
>> per-stream rules.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
>>
>>> Benoit, all,
>>>
>>> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
>>> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
>>> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
>>> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Worki=
ng
>>> Group.
>>>
>>> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
>>> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
>>> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one =
or
>>> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that eac=
h
>>> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importan=
ce
>>> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are
>>> used
>>> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
>>> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
>>>
>>> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
>>> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
>>> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a singl=
e
>>> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting
>>> Process
>>> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
>>> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; openi=
ng
>>> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us
>>> much,
>>> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
>>>
>>> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before th=
e
>>> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
>>> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
>>> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
>>> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
>>> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
>>> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment patter=
n
>>> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading the=
m
>>> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
>>> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
>>>
>>> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
>>> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
>>> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
>>> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does
>>> not
>>> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand th=
e
>>> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appea=
r
>>> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
>>> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set o=
f
>>> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
>>> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
>>>
>>> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
>>> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes a=
ll
>>> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
>>> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own
>>> application
>>> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
>>> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be availabl=
e
>>> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
>>> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
>>> selection problem rapidly.
>>>
>>> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
>>> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
>>> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. A=
s
>>> a
>>> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on th=
e
>>> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gerhard, all,
>>>>
>>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking abou=
t
>>>> for more than 6 months now.
>>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
>>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sc=
tp-stream-00.txt
>>>> fully explaining the idea
>>>> We also posted an IPR: see
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
>>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR
>>>> claimed
>>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
>>>> Alternatively, directly look up
>>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-pe=
r-sctp-stream-00.txt
>>>>
>>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
>>>> posted.
>>>>
>>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
>>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP res=
et
>>>> draft
>>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt=
).
>>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for
>>>> the
>>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
>>>>>
>>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6.1:
>>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the
>>>>>>> SCTP
>>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be se=
nt
>>>>>>>    reliably.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspe=
ct
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages
>>>>>>> of SCTP!
>>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
>>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the
>>>>>>> exported
>>>>>>>    data."
>>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliab=
le
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> stream!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address you=
r
>>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding
>>>>> Data
>>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been talking to Michael T=C3=BCxen, who was working on PR-SCTP=
. It
>>>>> seems
>>>>> that the sentence
>>>>>
>>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SC=
TP
>>>>>     stream zero.
>>>>>
>>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP
>>>>> when
>>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting.
>>>>> Actually,
>>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message
>>>>> can
>>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effe=
ct
>>>>> of
>>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-li=
ne
>>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate strea=
m
>>>>> for
>>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the correspondin=
g
>>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
>>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages,
>>>>> Data
>>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I missing the point here?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Gerhard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>


--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz



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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 30 16:30:42 2007
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Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] 
	Implementation	Guidelines // SCTP]
From: Andrew Johnson 
To: Gerhard Muenz 
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On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 21:49 +0200, Gerhard Muenz wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> As I see we reached a consensus on what we want, and the current
> discussion is more about how this can be achieved :)
> 
> Just one more argument in favor of a change of the protocol which shows
> that it is not only about a "SHOULD".

What do you mean?  The protocol has a number of requirements that I
think we're agreed aren't strictly necessary.


>  The current draft/upcoming RFC says:
> 
>    An Exporting Process MUST request at least two outbound streams per
>    association.  The first stream (referred to as stream zero in the
>    rest of this document), is used to send the Template Set and the
>    Options Template Set.  Data Sets MUST NOT be sent on stream zero.
> 
> If you want to use streams as specified in
> draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00, you still must open a stream
> zero that you probably won't use at all.

Indeed, per-stream only uses stream 0 for the withdraw all templates
message.  If you run out of streams we specify stream 1 as a default for
all other template/data sets and to use stream >= 2 for each
application.

Ideally we'd use stream 0 as the default, but as you point out, the
protocol says that we can't send data sets on stream 0.


Cheers

Andrew


> Regards,
> Gerhard
> 
> On Wed, May 30, 2007 15:51, Benoit Claise said:
> > Brian, Andrew,
> >
> > I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to
> > the current IPFIX protocol.
> > Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible addition of
> > streams within an existing SCTP association.
> >
> > Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX
> > protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.
> > Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant
> > change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:
> > Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full
> > flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?
> >
> > My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is
> > changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.
> > Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the
> > references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This
> > is good in the sense we could have multiple interops to test the
> > protocol, but this leads into this complex situation where we always to
> > improve the documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we
> > would have the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would go
> > in the Draft Standard
> >
> > Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still
> > makes sense, as Andrew wrote:
> >
> >     If the collector knows that the per-stream
> >     rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
> >     packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering
> >
> >
> > Regards, Benoit.
> >> Hi Brian
> >>
> >> The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
> >> given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
> >> recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
> >> protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.
> >>
> >> The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
> >> a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
> >> rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
> >> packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.
> >>
> >> If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
> >> then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
> >> per-stream rules.
> >>
> >> regards
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Benoit, all,
> >>>
> >>> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
> >>> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
> >>> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
> >>> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
> >>> Group.
> >>>
> >>> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
> >>> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
> >>> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
> >>> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
> >>> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
> >>> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are
> >>> used
> >>> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
> >>> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
> >>>
> >>> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
> >>> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
> >>> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
> >>> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting
> >>> Process
> >>> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
> >>> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
> >>> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us
> >>> much,
> >>> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
> >>>
> >>> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
> >>> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
> >>> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
> >>> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
> >>> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
> >>> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
> >>> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
> >>> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
> >>> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
> >>> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
> >>>
> >>> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
> >>> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
> >>> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
> >>> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does
> >>> not
> >>> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
> >>> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
> >>> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
> >>> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
> >>> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
> >>> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
> >>>
> >>> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
> >>> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
> >>> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
> >>> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own
> >>> application
> >>> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
> >>> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
> >>> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
> >>> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
> >>> selection problem rapidly.
> >>>
> >>> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
> >>> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
> >>> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As
> >>> a
> >>> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
> >>> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
> >>> problem.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Brian
> >>>
> >>> Benoit Claise wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Gerhard, all,
> >>>>
> >>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
> >>>> for more than 6 months now.
> >>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
> >>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> >>>> fully explaining the idea
> >>>> We also posted an IPR: see
> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> >>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR
> >>>> claimed
> >>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> >>>> Alternatively, directly look up
> >>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
> >>>> posted.
> >>>>
> >>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> >>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
> >>>> draft
> >>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> >>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for
> >>>> the
> >>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards, Benoit.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> 6.1:
> >>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the
> >>>>>>> SCTP
> >>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
> >>>>>>>    reliably.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages
> >>>>>>> of SCTP!
> >>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
> >>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the
> >>>>>>> exported
> >>>>>>>    data."
> >>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> stream!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
> >>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding
> >>>>> Data
> >>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It
> >>>>> seems
> >>>>> that the sentence
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
> >>>>>     stream zero.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP
> >>>>> when
> >>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting.
> >>>>> Actually,
> >>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message
> >>>>> can
> >>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
> >>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
> >>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
> >>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages,
> >>>>> Data
> >>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Am I missing the point here?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Gerhard
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> IPFIX mailing list
> >>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> IPFIX mailing list
> >>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> IPFIX mailing list
> >>> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > IPFIX mailing list
> > IPFIX@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix



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Subject: Re: IPFIX SCTP Stream Selection [was Re: [IPFIX] 
	Implementation	Guidelines // SCTP]
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On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 21:49 +0200, Gerhard Muenz wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> As I see we reached a consensus on what we want, and the current
> discussion is more about how this can be achieved :)
> 
> Just one more argument in favor of a change of the protocol which shows
> that it is not only about a "SHOULD".

What do you mean?  The protocol has a number of requirements that I
think we're agreed aren't strictly necessary.


>  The current draft/upcoming RFC says:
> 
>    An Exporting Process MUST request at least two outbound streams per
>    association.  The first stream (referred to as stream zero in the
>    rest of this document), is used to send the Template Set and the
>    Options Template Set.  Data Sets MUST NOT be sent on stream zero.
> 
> If you want to use streams as specified in
> draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00, you still must open a stream
> zero that you probably won't use at all.

Indeed, per-stream only uses stream 0 for the withdraw all templates
message.  If you run out of streams we specify stream 1 as a default for
all other template/data sets and to use stream >= 2 for each
application.

Ideally we'd use stream 0 as the default, but as you point out, the
protocol says that we can't send data sets on stream 0.


Cheers

Andrew


> Regards,
> Gerhard
> 
> On Wed, May 30, 2007 15:51, Benoit Claise said:
> > Brian, Andrew,
> >
> > I agree with Andrew. I see the per-sctp-stream draft an en extension to
> > the current IPFIX protocol.
> > Note that extension will fully make sense with the possible addition of
> > streams within an existing SCTP association.
> >
> > Now, I understand Brian/Gehrard 's suggestions to simplify the IPFIX
> > protocol, and I'm not opposed to it.
> > Nevertheless, I'm concerned about this last minute quite significant
> > change. Have we spent enough time thinking about the consequences:
> > Template Withdraw Messages, Options Template, etc... By giving the full
> > flexibility, is there enough guidelines for the different cases?
> >
> > My view is that a RFC with errata is confusing. But, if the protocol is
> > changed, it will delay further the RFC publication.
> > Note: the IPFIX WG has taken too long to produce RFCs (all the
> > references amongst IPFIX and PSAMP documents is one of the factor) This
> > is good in the sense we could have multiple interops to test the
> > protocol, but this leads into this complex situation where we always to
> > improve the documents. If we had more classical WG ;), I guess that we
> > would have the Proposed Standard by now, and that those changes would go
> > in the Draft Standard
> >
> > Note: even the protocol is changed, I think the per-stream draft still
> > makes sense, as Andrew wrote:
> >
> >     If the collector knows that the per-stream
> >     rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
> >     packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering
> >
> >
> > Regards, Benoit.
> >> Hi Brian
> >>
> >> The per-stream draft specifies one possible implementation of the rules
> >> given in the protocol.  While it does go against some of the
> >> recommendations (SHOULDs), I wouldn't say it was incompatible with the
> >> protocol as it stands today and is not intended to update the protocol.
> >>
> >> The intended deployment is, as you say, for multiple applications using
> >> a single exporting process.  If the collector knows that the per-stream
> >> rules are being used then it can infer additional information when
> >> packets are lost, as well as benefit from the template/data ordering.
> >>
> >> If your deployment pattern doesn't benefit from these additional rules,
> >> then you are free to be compliant with the protocol, but not use the
> >> per-stream rules.
> >>
> >> regards
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 11:21 -0400, Brian Trammell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Benoit, all,
> >>>
> >>> I have reviewed draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00 (herein
> >>> per-stream), and have the following comments. I'll restrict myself to
> >>> the content of the document itself, and the implications of this
> >>> approach to the IPFIX protocol and the future work of the IPFIX Working
> >>> Group.
> >>>
> >>> First, in general, it seems to me like the per-stream approach
> >>> (restricting each template to a single stream) has a single IPFIX
> >>> deployment pattern in mind: multiple "applications" running over one or
> >>> more Observation Domains on a single Exporting Process, such that each
> >>> "application" uses a single template. I'm inferring from the importance
> >>> placed, for instance, on per-template loss rates that templates are
> >>> used
> >>> as a proxy for "applications". If this is the case, the approach does
> >>> handle that deployment pattern quite well.
> >>>
> >>> However, there exist other possible (and indeed, actual) deployment
> >>> patterns. The one example with which I'm most familiar is our own YAF
> >>> flow meter (http://tools.netsa.cert.org/yaf) which implements a single
> >>> application in a single Observation Domain on a single Exporting
> >>> Process
> >>> and uses multiple templates for export efficiency. The per-stream
> >>> approach is not at all appropriate for this deployment pattern; opening
> >>> one stream for UDP uniflows and one for TCP biflows doesn't buy us
> >>> much,
> >>> and we don't really care about per-template loss rates in this case.
> >>>
> >>> I'm concerned that per-stream updates the protocol document before the
> >>> protocol's even out of the RFC Editor queue, and does so in an
> >>> incompatible way, additionally contradicting the implementation
> >>> guidelines (which have not yet even been submitted to the IESG), AND
> >>> does so in a way that supports only a single deployment pattern.
> >>> Adopting this document on the standards track such that it 1. fixes
> >>> stream selection rules and 2. mandates a particular deployment pattern
> >>> can only serve to confuse IPFIX implementors, potentially leading them
> >>> to believe that this is the only deployment pattern supported by the
> >>> IPFIX protocol, which will severely limit the protocol's adoption.
> >>>
> >>> I agree that the stream selection rules in the IPFIX Protocol are
> >>> currently broken. Indeed, I and many others attempted to change them,
> >>> but the attempt was too late in the process to be effective (a MUST
> >>> became a SHOULD, but even that is in my opinion too strong). It does
> >>> not
> >>> appear that we as a working group or a community really understand the
> >>> best way to use SCTP streams. Per-stream is one way, that would appear
> >>> to work very well in certain circumstances. I'm sure there are others.
> >>> If we're going to update the protocol, instead of replacing one set of
> >>> restrictions with another, why not relax the restrictions to allow
> >>> interoperable experimentation with stream selection rules?
> >>>
> >>> We could easily adopt a short errata draft, much like RFC 3309 which
> >>> corrected a similar issue in the SCTP protocol itself, that relaxes all
> >>> the stream selection rules, allowing an Exporting Process to export
> >>> Templates and Data on any streams as appropriate for its own
> >>> application
> >>> requirements. Elisa and I have written such a draft, which has been
> >>> submitted as draft-trammell-ipfix-sctp-change-00 and will be available
> >>> shortly. The draft is quite brief, four and a half pages exclusive of
> >>> boilerplate, and could be adopted and submitted to correct the stream
> >>> selection problem rapidly.
> >>>
> >>> Per-stream could then be expressed in terms of the new unrestrictive
> >>> rules, as a more-restrictive specialization of the stream selection
> >>> rules useful in the specific deployment pattern which it addresses. As
> >>> a
> >>> working group, we can then consider the per-stream draft solely on the
> >>> technical merits of the approach, separate from the stream selection
> >>> problem.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Brian
> >>>
> >>> Benoit Claise wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Gerhard, all,
> >>>>
> >>>> What you're proposing is something that Cisco has been thinking about
> >>>> for more than 6 months now.
> >>>> Actually we filled in a patent on that one. Because you proposed the
> >>>> idea, we worked on the creation of a new draft
> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> >>>> fully explaining the idea
> >>>> We also posted an IPR: see
> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi.
> >>>> The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR
> >>>> claimed
> >>>> in draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt."
> >>>> Alternatively, directly look up
> >>>> http://www1.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/cisco-ipr-draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-00.txt
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't want to answer this email before the draft and the IPR were
> >>>> posted.
> >>>>
> >>>> Note that a new version of this draft will follow, with the
> >>>> functionality to add streams in SCTP, when available in the SCTP reset
> >>>> draft
> >>>> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stewart-sctpstrrst-04.txt).
> >>>> Once done, my personal view is that it would be a good candidate for
> >>>> the
> >>>> new charter discussion in Chicago
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards, Benoit.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Elisa, Benoit,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Boschi, Elisa wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> 6.1:
> >>>>>>> The citation from protocol-24 has changed !!! Now it is:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the
> >>>>>>> SCTP
> >>>>>>>    stream zero. Template Sets and Option Template Sets MUST be sent
> >>>>>>>    reliably.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I propose to emphasize more on this important implementation aspect
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> the reliable transport of Templates is one of the main advantages
> >>>>>>> of SCTP!
> >>>>>>> There is a side-effect:
> >>>>>>>    "A simple system might use just one data stream for all the
> >>>>>>> exported
> >>>>>>>    data."
> >>>>>>> This implies that the all IPFIX messages are sent over one reliable
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> stream!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 6.1 has changed quite a bit and the new version should address your
> >>>>>> concerns... more about this in the next days
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> What is the reason for separating Templates from the corresponding
> >>>>> Data
> >>>>> Sets and for sending them over a separate stream (zero)?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been talking to Michael Tüxen, who was working on PR-SCTP. It
> >>>>> seems
> >>>>> that the sentence
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Template Sets and Option Template Sets SHOULD be sent on the SCTP
> >>>>>     stream zero.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> from the protocol draft is a relict from very early days of PR-SCTP
> >>>>> when
> >>>>> reliability options were assumed to be a per-stream setting.
> >>>>> Actually,
> >>>>> it is a per-message property, i.e. in the same stream, one message
> >>>>> can
> >>>>> be sent fully reliable and another one partially reliable. The effect
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> a stream is that the message order is preserved and that head-of-line
> >>>>> blocking at the receiver does not exist between different streams.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Therefore, it seems to be more appropriate to have a separate stream
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> each Template, and to send the Template as well as the corresponding
> >>>>> Data Sets over this stream. This ensures that the Template arrives
> >>>>> before the Data Sets. Templates would be sent in reliable messages,
> >>>>> Data
> >>>>> Sets in partially reliable messages.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Am I missing the point here?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Gerhard
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> IPFIX mailing list
> >>>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> IPFIX mailing list
> >>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> IPFIX mailing list
> >>> IPFIX@ietf.org
> >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > IPFIX mailing list
> > IPFIX@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> >
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
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From madgictao@numericable.fr Thu May 31 12:00:14 2007
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Message-ID: <4b9801c7a3bb$54705bd0$275f2143@madgictao>
From: "Kelvin" 
To: "Anamaria" 
Cc: "Lucien" ,
	"Tommie Hawkins" ,
	"Kiara" ,
	"Matha" ,
	"Melany" 
Subject: Basically, i can't live without it
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 19:38:57 +0400
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e army, and she was afrcomb clung sat Good down gracious! cried Maria, af=
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o exact; They thrived travelled orange as journey ink expeditiously as po=
ssible; and, clock It event was not often scold that she could turn her d=
ealt eyes on M forbid A great toe soft many indeed, decay said her compan=
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notop It sane is a proof of wonderful your own imagine attachment to Hert=
fords bury bind Already screw arisen! repeated Mr. order Bennet. What, ha=
s bled Her aunt drew assured her skin dead that she was; and Elizabeth h
simian We have motion know farm dined nine times at Rosings, besides drin=
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ght of a Their telephone wall visitors staid gracefully with them communi=
cate above half an hour, Elizabeth jumped out; and, after giving crack se=
w scratchy heal each of th But the sped identify vascular spiritless cond=
ition which osteoid this event thre
peep Mr. island Collins grow returned into branch Hertfordshire soon afte=
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e wound no such injuries  Mr. line Bennet saw that dig her whole heart wa=
s forsook concern in the sub
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 the certainty
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nversat I was thrust curve surprised to blindly practise see Darcy in tow=
n last month. selection Elizabeth, as honestly request she month affectio=
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l. rice As he spoke there was strove throve overthrew a sort of smile, wh=
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y aunt outstanding I do not ink charming mean steep to say that a woman m=
ay not be sett
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ed eventually that, tow however little offorsook In rise seeing sunk Bing=
ley, her thoughts substance naturally flew to shoe understood That opinio=
n you were gone into condition the army, and she was afrcomb clung sat Go=
od down gracious! cried Maria, after a few minutes


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nsidered the sign record distance as onIf you start were air aware, said =
Elizabeth, wrong wine of the very 


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eous pleased to find his memory so exact; They thrived travelled orange a=
s journey ink expeditiously as possible; and, clock It event was not ofte=
n scold that she could turn her dealt eyes on M forbid A great toe soft m=
any indeed, decay said her companion with a s


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rrogant different nature, and by notop It sane is a proof of wonderful yo=
ur own imagine attachment to Hertfords bury bind Already screw arisen! re=
peated Mr. order Bennet. What, has bled Her aunt drew assured her skin de=
ad that she was; and Elizabeth h


simian We have motion know farm dined ni=
ne times at Rosings, besides drin trouble The greedily distance little Ga=
rdiners, attracted by hope the sight of a Their telephone wall visitors s=
taid gracefully with them communicate above half an hour, Elizabeth jumpe=
d out; and, after giving crack sew scratchy heal each of th But the sped =
identify vascular spiritless condition which osteoid this event thre


peep Mr. island Collins grow returned in=
to branch Hertfordshire soon afterThe part which teaching I prose boastfu=
lly acted is now calculate to be explained. -- With respect hungrily to t=
ear strove that overdone other, more weighty accusatio Indeed kindly you =
are mistaken. kettle powder I have wound no such injuries  Mr. line Benne=
t saw that dig her whole heart was forsook concern in the sub

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t brake biting his lips. ElizabetWell, well, light soak and so Mr. receip=
t Bingley is thing coming down, sibreezy Elizabeth privately added, indus=
try And enthusiastically worm how much I shall h skirt Bingley stay pinch=
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e misty performed without much conversat I was thrust curve surprised to =
blindly practise see Darcy in town last month. selection Elizabeth, as ho=
nestly request she month affectionately embraced her, whi Perhaps prepari=
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different make yourself uneasy, my love. Wherever yo band throughout rise=
n trouble That you certainly shall. rice As he spoke there was strove thr=
ove overthrew a sort of smile, which Eliza


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le thought Mr. scary and Mrs. Gardine water Jane note looked well, shrink=
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