From netbackup-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 1 06:51:05 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21889 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71AqENt013247 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:52:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:52:14 -0400 Message-Id: <200208011052.g71AqENt013247@mailhost.advanced.org> Subject: advanced.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@advanced.org To: ippm-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Sender: netbackup-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: netbackup-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: netbackup@mailhost.advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Netbackup logs This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your advanced.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, ippm-request@advanced.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@advanced.org. Thanks! Passwords for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- ippm@advanced.org jTPE http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/options/ippm/ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 1 08:42:32 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28008 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71CfWNt031176; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:41:32 -0400 Received: from dogwood.cisco.com (dogwood.cisco.com [161.44.11.19]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71CWGNt030333 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:32:16 -0400 Received: from RHOLLEYW2K1 (dhcp-64-102-43-124.cisco.com [64.102.43.124]) by dogwood.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id IAA20533; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:32:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Holley" To: "Henk Uijterwaal \(RIPE-NCC\)" , "Henrik Holland" Cc: "IPPM IETF" Subject: RE: [ippm] availability Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:32:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henrik, Henk, This is a somewhat delayed response to the request on availability, but I would like to throw this out. The ITU has developed a very generic framework for developing availability definitions for network services independent of technology. The defintion is spread out over several different documents. Logically, it explains a method for developing definitions on availability. In the case of IP networks, I can speculate that the defintions from the IPPM group would be used to feed the upstream definitions. The upstream defintions could be used to describe how the network is performing overtime. The IPPM metrics supply a measurement set that records the state of the network at one point in time. Multiple measurement sets would be rolled up and used to determine "availabilty" overtime such as on a monthly or yearly basis. regards ============================================ Robert Holley Network Consulting Engineer Global Solutions Engineering Cisco Systems 7025 Kit Creek Road. Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 Phone: +1 919-392-2359 Pager: +1 800-796-7363 pin 100-9187 ============================================ > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm-admin@advanced.org [mailto:ippm-admin@advanced.org]On Behalf > Of Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC) > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:46 AM > To: Henrik Holland > Cc: IPPM IETF > Subject: Re: [ippm] availability > > > Hi Henrik, > > > This may not be directly IPPM but maybe some of you can help me. In > > http://netperformance.genuity.com/documents/Methodology1.pdf I find: > > > > "The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) specifies that a network > > element is "available" if it responds successfully to a minimum > of 15 pings > > out of 20 it receives." > > > > Can anyone tell me where (in what doc) the IETF specifies this? > > It is definitely not in any IPPM document. > > It would also be a very silly metric: if I'm accessing a device through > protocol X, I want to know if it responds to that protocol, not if it > responds to another protocol. > > Henk > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal@ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk > Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > That problem that we weren't having yesterday, is it better? (Big ISP NOC) > > NOTE: My email address (and a hole in our mailing list software) is being > abused by a spammer. We are working on fixing this hole > and tracking > the spammer down. If you receive mail from "henk@ripe.net" that is > obviously spam, please send me a copy of the mail including > ALL headers. > I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused by this. > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 1 09:11:25 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29240 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71DBpNt004632; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:11:51 -0400 Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71D3TNt003167 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:03:29 -0400 Received: [from pobox4.mot.com (pobox4.mot.com [10.64.251.243]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id GAA05755 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:03:36 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il06exm06.corp.mot.com (il06exm06.corp.mot.com [199.5.78.47]) by pobox4.mot.com (MOT-pobox4 2.0) with ESMTP id GAA17384 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:03:28 -0700 (MST)] Received: by il06exm06.corp.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) id ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:03:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Grotefeld Glenn-cecl03 To: "'Robert Holley'" , "Henk Uijterwaal \\(RIPE-NCC\\)" , Henrik Holland Cc: IPPM IETF Subject: RE: [ippm] availability Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:03:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.52) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List However, I find most of the ITU documents so generic that the "devil is in the details" of determining what constitutes pass/fail performance (again, at least starting with E.800, the ITU approach is very much 0/1 on performance). > Glenn Grotefeld > > Motorola, Inc. > g.grotefeld@motorola.com > US 847 435-0730 > 847 632-6800 FAX -----Original Message----- From: Robert Holley [mailto:rholley@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:32 AM To: Henk Uijterwaal \(RIPE-NCC\); Henrik Holland Cc: IPPM IETF Subject: RE: [ippm] availability Henrik, Henk, This is a somewhat delayed response to the request on availability, but I would like to throw this out. The ITU has developed a very generic framework for developing availability definitions for network services independent of technology. The defintion is spread out over several different documents. Logically, it explains a method for developing definitions on availability. In the case of IP networks, I can speculate that the defintions from the IPPM group would be used to feed the upstream definitions. The upstream defintions could be used to describe how the network is performing overtime. The IPPM metrics supply a measurement set that records the state of the network at one point in time. Multiple measurement sets would be rolled up and used to determine "availabilty" overtime such as on a monthly or yearly basis. regards ============================================ Robert Holley Network Consulting Engineer Global Solutions Engineering Cisco Systems 7025 Kit Creek Road. Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 Phone: +1 919-392-2359 Pager: +1 800-796-7363 pin 100-9187 ============================================ > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm-admin@advanced.org [mailto:ippm-admin@advanced.org]On Behalf > Of Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC) > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:46 AM > To: Henrik Holland > Cc: IPPM IETF > Subject: Re: [ippm] availability > > > Hi Henrik, > > > This may not be directly IPPM but maybe some of you can help me. In > > http://netperformance.genuity.com/documents/Methodology1.pdf I find: > > > > "The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) specifies that a network > > element is "available" if it responds successfully to a minimum > of 15 pings > > out of 20 it receives." > > > > Can anyone tell me where (in what doc) the IETF specifies this? > > It is definitely not in any IPPM document. > > It would also be a very silly metric: if I'm accessing a device through > protocol X, I want to know if it responds to that protocol, not if it > responds to another protocol. > > Henk > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal@ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk > Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > That problem that we weren't having yesterday, is it better? (Big ISP NOC) > > NOTE: My email address (and a hole in our mailing list software) is being > abused by a spammer. We are working on fixing this hole > and tracking > the spammer down. If you receive mail from "henk@ripe.net" that is > obviously spam, please send me a copy of the mail including > ALL headers. > I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused by this. > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 1 09:27:15 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00138 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71DOINt008747; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:24:18 -0400 Received: from dogwood.cisco.com (dogwood.cisco.com [161.44.11.19]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71DGuNt007197 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:16:57 -0400 Received: from RHOLLEYW2K1 (dhcp-64-102-43-124.cisco.com [64.102.43.124]) by dogwood.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id JAA02401; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:16:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Holley" To: "Grotefeld Glenn-cecl03" , "Henk Uijterwaal \\\(RIPE-NCC\\\)" , "Henrik Holland" Cc: "IPPM IETF" Subject: RE: [ippm] availability Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:16:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True, details are problematic. However, in this case, the details of the measurements are being provided by the IETF IPPM group. Which values of those measurements consitute a pass/fail would be defined in an "Availability Function". There can be provisional values recommended, but in general the definition of the availability function is ultimiately left to the administrator who deploys the system to monitor a network service. The benitif of flexibility is that different administrator may have differnt requirements for what constitutes a pass/fail condition. After the pass/fail crieteria have been defined, they are applied to single set of measurements on a single set of measurement end-points to determine if that single set of measurements passes or fails. The next level is the "Availability Performance". The availability performance would define how often the set of measurements should be collected, on how many and which endpoints collections should be made, and after considering multiple sets of pass/fail data, what is the availabilty over time for a service deployed across the network. regards ============================================ Robert Holley Network Consulting Engineer Global Solutions Engineering Cisco Systems 7025 Kit Creek Road. Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 Phone: +1 919-392-2359 Pager: +1 800-796-7363 pin 100-9187 ============================================ > -----Original Message----- > From: Grotefeld Glenn-cecl03 [mailto:G.Grotefeld@motorola.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:03 AM > To: 'Robert Holley'; Henk Uijterwaal \(RIPE-NCC\); Henrik Holland > Cc: IPPM IETF > Subject: RE: [ippm] availability > > > However, I find most of the ITU documents so generic that the "devil is in > the details" of determining what constitutes pass/fail performance (again, > at least starting with E.800, the ITU approach is very much 0/1 on > performance). > > > Glenn Grotefeld > > > > Motorola, Inc. > > g.grotefeld@motorola.com > > US 847 435-0730 > > 847 632-6800 FAX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Holley [mailto:rholley@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:32 AM > To: Henk Uijterwaal \(RIPE-NCC\); Henrik Holland > Cc: IPPM IETF > Subject: RE: [ippm] availability > > > Henrik, > Henk, > > This is a somewhat delayed response to the request on availability, but I > would like to throw this out. > > The ITU has developed a very generic framework for developing availability > definitions for network services independent of technology. > > The defintion is spread out over several different documents. > Logically, it > explains a method for developing definitions on availability. In > the case of > IP networks, I can speculate that the defintions from the IPPM group would > be used to feed the upstream definitions. The upstream defintions could be > used to describe how the network is performing overtime. The IPPM metrics > supply a measurement set that records the state of the network at > one point > in time. Multiple measurement sets would be rolled up and used to > determine > "availabilty" overtime such as on a monthly or yearly basis. > > regards > ============================================ > Robert Holley > Network Consulting Engineer > Global Solutions Engineering > > Cisco Systems > 7025 Kit Creek Road. > Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 > Phone: +1 919-392-2359 > Pager: +1 800-796-7363 pin 100-9187 > ============================================ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ippm-admin@advanced.org [mailto:ippm-admin@advanced.org]On Behalf > > Of Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC) > > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:46 AM > > To: Henrik Holland > > Cc: IPPM IETF > > Subject: Re: [ippm] availability > > > > > > Hi Henrik, > > > > > This may not be directly IPPM but maybe some of you can help me. In > > > http://netperformance.genuity.com/documents/Methodology1.pdf I find: > > > > > > "The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) specifies that a network > > > element is "available" if it responds successfully to a minimum > > of 15 pings > > > out of 20 it receives." > > > > > > Can anyone tell me where (in what doc) the IETF specifies this? > > > > It is definitely not in any IPPM document. > > > > It would also be a very silly metric: if I'm accessing a device through > > protocol X, I want to know if it responds to that protocol, not if it > > responds to another protocol. > > > > Henk > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------ > > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal@ripe.net > > RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk > > Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > > 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > > The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------ > > > > That problem that we weren't having yesterday, is it better? > (Big ISP NOC) > > > > NOTE: My email address (and a hole in our mailing list > software) is being > > abused by a spammer. We are working on fixing this hole > > and tracking > > the spammer down. If you receive mail from > "henk@ripe.net" that is > > obviously spam, please send me a copy of the mail including > > ALL headers. > > I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused by this. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@advanced.org > > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 1 12:00:36 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04716 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g71Fx5Nt012993; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:59:05 -0400 Received: from parsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.com (parsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.com [194.167.105.14]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g6VGLeNt002365 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:21:40 -0400 Received: from LANMHS20.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.21.60]) by parsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:21:40 +0200 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C238AE.58372092" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:21:37 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippmmib Thread-Index: AcI4kP3v+huGjG7nTlWfq4WMSEv/PgAFtcpw From: "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2002 16:21:40.0087 (UTC) FILETIME=[59BDC870:01C238AE] Subject: [ippm] IPPM REPORTING MIB data model: Inter table index Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C238AE.58372092 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi, During the meeting on the compliance of the MIB to the SMI with Andy, Matt and Merike it appeared that the relation among ippmMeasureTable, the ippmNetworkMeasure and the ippmAggreggatedMeasure is not explained enought. The ippmMeasureTable may be considered as a virtual table with 2 childrens ippmNetworkMeasure and ippmAggreggatedMeasure. Both of them extend the ippmMeasureTable using a sparse dependent relationship. The following document explain the different kind of relationship. The section "2.2 Sparse Dependent Relationship" corresponds to the model used in the IPPM REPORTING MIB. As an example, the index of the table ippmNetworkMeasureTable (same for ippmAggregatedMeasureTable ) refer to fields which are part of the definition of ippmMeasureTable: ippmNetworkMeasureEntry OBJECT-TYPE SYNTAX IppmNetworkMeasureEntry MAX-ACCESS not-accessible STATUS current DESCRIPTION "" INDEX { ippmMeasureOwner, ippmMeasureIndex } It means that the creation of an ippmNetworkMeasureEntry creates an ippmMeasureEntry too. The goal is to permit future tables to be defined if needed while preserving the consistency with the existing tables. regards Emile > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC) [mailto:henk@ripe.net] > Envoye : mercredi 31 juillet 2002 14:51 > A : STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN > Cc : ippm@advanced.org; shalunov@internet2.edu > Objet : Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and > ippmmib >=20 >=20 > Emile, others, >=20 >=20 > > Regarding the clock with "no notion of external=20 > synchronization for the > > time source (e.g., a cesium oscillator is used directly)"=20 > what may be > > the corresponding state ? >=20 > I'd think that the condition for synchronized is that the=20 > clocks on both > sending and receiving end are synchronized to one and the=20 > same source, and > it is thus impossible for one to drift away from the other. >=20 > So, a cesium clock connected to a PC but not to anything else, is > unsynchronized, a cesium clock connected to a PC and to (say)=20 > a clock at a > standards institute, is synchronized. >=20 > > are there other states to discuss now(e.g. such as 'fail') ? >=20 > Isn't this implementation dependent? For the MIB/OWDP, we=20 > need 3 states: >=20 > * Unsynchronized > * Synchronized > * Other >=20 > Other covering any state not being synchronized or=20 > unsynchronized, leaving > it up to the implementor to decide what to do next. >=20 > I don't think that there is a need for a "initializing"=20 > state, it is too > generic and the behaviour of the clock during initialization=20 > varies from > one hardware vendor to the other. Or to be more precise, for our > equipment, we use GPS clocks from 2 different vendors and they behave > completely different from the moment they are switched on until they > have synchronized themselves. The same happens when=20 > something goes wrong > (for example, the cable antenna is cut). >=20 > Henk >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > ippmSynchonizationState OBJECT-TYPE > > SYNTAX INTEGER { > > other(0), > > unsynchronized(1), > > initializing(2), > > synchronized(4) > > } > > MAX-ACCESS read-only > > STATUS current > > DESCRIPTION > > " ippmSynchonizationState describes the state of the clock > > synchronization. > > > > > > Other(0) > > The status of the synchronization is unknown. > > > > unsynchronized(1) > > The system is not synchronized. > > > > initializing(2) > > The system is receiving synchronization information but is not yet > > synchronized. > > > > synchronized(4) > > The system is synchronized. > > " > > > > regards > > Emile > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@advanced.org > > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal@ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW:=20 > http://www.ripe.net/home/henk > Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- >=20 > That problem that we weren't having yesterday, is it better?=20 > (Big ISP NOC) >=20 > NOTE: My email address (and a hole in our mailing list=20 > software) is being > abused by a spammer. We are working on fixing this=20 > hole and tracking > the spammer down. If you receive mail from=20 > "henk@ripe.net" that is > obviously spam, please send me a copy of the mail=20 > including ALL headers. > I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused by this. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C238AE.58372092 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="inter table indexing in SNMP.pdf" Content-Description: inter table indexing in SNMP.pdf Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="inter table indexing in SNMP.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 JVBERi0xLjINCiXi48/TDQoyIDAgb2JqDQo8PA0KL0QgWzEgMCBSIC9YWVogbnVsbCA3NjggbnVs bF0NCj4+DQplbmRvYmoNCjMgMCBvYmoNCjw8DQovRCBbMSAwIFIgL1hZWiBudWxsIDU5IG51bGxd DQo+Pg0KZW5kb2JqDQo0IDAgb2JqDQo8PA0KL0QgWzEgMCBSIC9YWVogbnVsbCA3MjEgbnVsbF0N Cj4+DQplbmRvYmoNCjUgMCBvYmoNCjw8DQovRCBbMSAwIFIgL1hZWiBudWxsIDY4MiBudWxsXQ0K Pj4NCmVuZG9iag0KNiAwIG9iag0KPDwNCi9EIFsxIDAgUiAvWFlaIG51bGwgNjY5IG51bGxdDQo+ Pg0KZW5kb2JqDQo3IDAgb2JqDQo8PA0KL0QgWzEgMCBSIC9YWVogbnVsbCA2NDMgbnVsbF0NCj4+ 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03:40:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241575ECEF; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330065ECC8; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:40:25 -0400 (EDT) To: "Robert Holley" Cc: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Aug 2002 03:41:10 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87ptx11ze1.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List "Robert Holley" writes: > The sender can know where the reciever gets it time source. The > information is maintained in the NTP MIB. This may be accessed by > the "separate communication channel" reference in the thread below. The measurement protocol has to work for clocks that are not disciplined using NTP. (For example, Surveyor normally goes across a PCI bus to a GPS receiver each time it needs a timestamp.) Even in a world where each clock is disciplined using NTP, NTP source will only tell you the immediate parent. Running ntptrace for each packet isn't an option (and ntptrace doesn't always work). Even if running ntptrace for each packet were an option, not getting to the same ultimate parent means what? It's obviously perfectly OK to use, e.g., two different (local to each host) GPS cards for the sender and the receiver. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "You wake me up early in the morning to tell me I am right? Please wait until I am wrong." -- John von Neumann, on being phoned at 10 a.m. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 03:48:35 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10711 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g727l2iU009729; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:47:02 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g727kOiU009621 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:46:24 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0A75ECEF; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DF05ECC8; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:46:23 -0400 (EDT) To: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" Cc: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Aug 2002 03:47:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87n0s51z42.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" writes: > [...] I'd put a flag in the packet when it is sent indicating the > status of the clock at the sender. The packet is then received by > the receiver, the receiver looks at its clock and tags the packet > accordingly: both clock synchronized so a valid (delay) measurement, > one or two clocks unsynchronized and a non-valid (delay) > measurement. There's a `synchronized' flag in each packet now and what you describe is one way of using it. (The receiver is supposed to store its own timestamp with its own `synchronized' flag and the data user -- whoever it happens to be -- may choose to discard packets such that at least one of the `synchronized' flags isn't set or it might treat these packets differently or ignore the issue altogether.) The question is -- I suppose -- about the following language in draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-04.txt: # if there is no notion of external synchronization for the time source # (e.g., a cesium oscillator is used directly), the bit SHOULD be set. Should this language be changed, in your opinion? If so, how? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education. -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 03:54:49 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10821 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g727q3iU010616; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:52:03 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g727p4iU010504 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:51:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CCA5ECEF; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E6E5ECC8; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:51:03 -0400 (EDT) To: "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" Cc: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: 'initializing' References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Aug 2002 03:51:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87k7n91ywb.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" writes: > Management systems need generic state to decide when the > measure issued = from the probes may be used or not to compute > trustable results. > > the 'initializing' state is generic enough to describe that they are > not = yet synchrnized and that they consider to gain the > synchronized state = soon.=20 How soon? If I was getting the time from my GPS card and I am in the process of switching to a stratum 1 backup because the window is temporarily blocked, am I `initializing'? If I only can get time from my GPS card, boot up and start up ntpd, but the antenna is disconnected, am I `initializing'? It might take me a day or two to synchronize. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "Which one is worse? Both are worse." -- V. I. Lenin _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 05:50:34 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA12503 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g729m2iU023523; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:48:02 -0400 Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g729lFiU023254 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:47:15 -0400 Received: from x49.ripe.net (x49.ripe.net [193.0.1.49]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.5/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g729lEff024431 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:47:14 +0200 Received: from localhost (henk@localhost) by x49.ripe.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g729lE015021 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:47:14 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: x49.ripe.net: henk owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:47:14 +0200 (CEST) From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" To: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib In-Reply-To: <87n0s51z42.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-RIPE-Spam-Status: NONE ; -1041 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Stas, > "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" writes: > > > [...] I'd put a flag in the packet when it is sent indicating the > > status of the clock at the sender. The packet is then received by > > the receiver, the receiver looks at its clock and tags the packet > > accordingly: both clock synchronized so a valid (delay) measurement, > > one or two clocks unsynchronized and a non-valid (delay) > > measurement. > > There's a `synchronized' flag in each packet now and what you describe > is one way of using it. (The receiver is supposed to store its own > timestamp with its own `synchronized' flag and the data user -- > whoever it happens to be -- may choose to discard packets such that at > least one of the `synchronized' flags isn't set or it might treat > these packets differently or ignore the issue altogether.) > > The question is -- I suppose -- about the following language in > draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-04.txt: > > # if there is no notion of external synchronization for the time source > # (e.g., a cesium oscillator is used directly), the bit SHOULD be set. > > Should this language be changed, in your opinion? If so, how? I'd say "SHOULD NOT" and remove the "(e.g. a cesium ... directly)" as it will be very confusing. The issue is if 2 time-stamps from different devices can be be directly compared. That is not the case without some sort of synchronization to a common source known to both devices. It would perhaps be easier to call this bit "Synchronized to UTC". While you can do measurements without being sync'd to UTC, I'd think that one will only do this in a lab environment, not in a network of distributed measurement devices. Henk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal@ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ That problem that we weren't having yesterday, is it better? (Big ISP NOC) NOTE: My email address (and a hole in our mailing list software) is being abused by a spammer. We are working on fixing this hole and tracking the spammer down. If you receive mail from "henk@ripe.net" that is obviously spam, please send me a copy of the mail including ALL headers. I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused by this. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 09:39:10 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA19100 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72Db2iU026235; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:37:02 -0400 Received: from dogwood.cisco.com (dogwood.cisco.com [161.44.11.19]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72DaSiU026138 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:36:28 -0400 Received: from RHOLLEYW2K1 (dhcp-64-102-43-124.cisco.com [64.102.43.124]) by dogwood.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id JAA13478; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Holley" To: "stanislav shalunov" Cc: Subject: RE: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:36:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <87ptx11ze1.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stanislav, In your example, the Surveyor system would be considered an "authoritative source" since it obtains it time from a GPS. But that is very implementation specific. What if a system has a GPS, but only checks it once a day or less (perhaps on initialization). Then it is dependent on the accuracy and resolution of the system clock (high/low or malfunction) quality may drift from true time. In the Internet time synch network, authoritative servers that provide synchronization to a sizeable population of clients normally operate as a group of three or more mutually redundant servers, each operating with three or more stratum 1 or stratum 2 servers in client/server modes, as well as all other members of the group in symmetric modes. This provides protection against malfunctions in which one or more servers fail to operate or provide incorrect time. In other words, even with the presence of stratum 1 servers, the time is compared with other stratum 1 servers for protection. So, even though a system may be connected to a GPS, it is not a guarantee that it will provide true time. It is reasonable to say that running ntptrace is not practical. But it may be practical to say that the end-point needs to support ntpd so that it can DESCRIBE its synchronization state in clear and well defined terms. Even if it is an authoritative source (e.g. GPS) and it is the only node in the synch tree, using ntpd, it will be able to accurately describe it's state wrt time and provide sufficient information to infer whether the time should be "trusted". NTP is the current state-of-the-art with regards to describing time in a network environment. Since a critical component of this work is a concept of agreement in time between two network clocks, it seems reasonable that utilization of NTP concepts should be a requirement. If IPPM is expected to work with systems that are not disciplined by using a well known system as NTP, then an alternative mechanism would be needed to insure credibility of the measurements. I suggest that it would be a simpler implementation effort, if it was accepted that the current NTP concepts be utilized and required. Even using NTP, a problem still exists. Namely what is the algorithm and which NTP parameters should be collected and deemed sufficient for a Server to validate that the collected IPPM data is accurate? regards ============================================ Robert Holley Network Consulting Engineer Global Solutions Engineering Cisco Systems 7025 Kit Creek Road. Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 Phone: +1 919-392-2359 Pager: +1 800-796-7363 pin 100-9187 ============================================ > -----Original Message----- > From: stanislav shalunov [mailto:shalunov@internet2.edu] > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 3:41 AM > To: Robert Holley > Cc: ippm@advanced.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and > ippm mib > > > "Robert Holley" writes: > > > The sender can know where the reciever gets it time source. The > > information is maintained in the NTP MIB. This may be accessed by > > the "separate communication channel" reference in the thread below. > > The measurement protocol has to work for clocks that are not > disciplined using NTP. (For example, Surveyor normally goes across a > PCI bus to a GPS receiver each time it needs a timestamp.) > > Even in a world where each clock is disciplined using NTP, NTP source > will only tell you the immediate parent. Running ntptrace for each > packet isn't an option (and ntptrace doesn't always work). > > Even if running ntptrace for each packet were an option, not getting > to the same ultimate parent means what? It's obviously perfectly OK > to use, e.g., two different (local to each host) GPS cards for the > sender and the receiver. > > -- > Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ > > "You wake me up early in the morning to tell me I am right? Please > wait until I am wrong." -- John von Neumann, on being > phoned at 10 a.m. > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 10:16:02 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20856 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72ED3iU001897; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:13:03 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72ECJiU001793 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:12:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8515EE20; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7735ED1E; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:12:18 -0400 (EDT) To: "Robert Holley" Cc: Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Aug 2002 10:13:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87wur9z6vn.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List "Robert Holley" writes: > [...] the end-point needs to support ntpd so that it can DESCRIBE > its synchronization state in clear and well defined terms. So you want to make running NTP a prerequisite to running OWAMP. This would be a reversal of decisions made on this list in February 2001 (http://mailhost.advanced.org/archives/ippm/2001-February/001308.html and its thread). I don't see a compelling case to make a little Ethernet switch that might run OWAMP run NTP as well. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "Nuclear war can ruin your whole compile." -- Karl Lehenbauer _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 10:22:35 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21218 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72EL2iU005318; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:21:02 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72EK5iU004759 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:20:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FDF5EE20 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F275ED1E for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:20:04 -0400 (EDT) To: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Aug 2002 10:20:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87n0s5z6iz.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" writes: > I'd say "SHOULD NOT" and remove the "(e.g. a cesium ... directly)" as it > will be very confusing. Henk, I agree. Thanks for the text suggestion. Is this what you wanted to see? It works for me. diff -u -r1.39 draft-ietf-ippm-owdp.nroff --- draft-ietf-ippm-owdp.nroff 24 Jul 2002 15:50:26 -0000 1.39 +++ draft-ietf-ippm-owdp.nroff 2 Aug 2002 14:17:21 -0000 @@ -979,13 +979,13 @@ bits of the timestamp would be the same as the corresponding bits of NTP v3 timestamp). The remaining octet specifies synchronization and precision. The first bit is set if the party generating the timestamp has -a clock that is synchronized to an external source (e.g., the +a clock that is synchronized to UTC using an external source (e.g., the bit should be set if GPS hardware is used and it indicates that it has acquired current position and time or if NTP is used and it indicates that it has synchronized to an external source, which includes stratum 0 source, etc.); if there is no notion of external synchronization for -the time source (e.g., a cesium oscillator is used directly), -the bit SHOULD be set. The next bit is currently unused and may be +the time source, +the bit SHOULD NOT be set. The next bit is currently unused and may be set to an arbitrary value. The remaining six bits form an unsigned integer, which is the number of bits in the time-specifying main part of the timestamp that the party generating timestamp believes to be -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Sex is the mathematics urge sublimated. -- M. C. Reed. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 11:29:46 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23814 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72FS4iU022470; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:28:04 -0400 Received: from dogwood.cisco.com (dogwood.cisco.com [161.44.11.19]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72FRmiU022376 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:27:49 -0400 Received: from RHOLLEYW2K1 (dhcp-64-102-43-124.cisco.com [64.102.43.124]) by dogwood.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id LAA26459; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:27:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Holley" To: "stanislav shalunov" Cc: Subject: RE: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:27:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <87wur9z6vn.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stanislav, Thanks for the historical perspective. I'm reading through the thread now. In general I feel that if one wishes his opinions to be considered, then they should be offered at the appropriate time. If this was decided in Feb 2001 and if there are not very compelling reasons to re-visit the issue, then I would agree that the status quo should be unchanged. regards Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: stanislav shalunov [mailto:shalunov@internet2.edu] > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:13 AM > To: Robert Holley > Cc: ippm@advanced.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and > ippm mib > > > "Robert Holley" writes: > > > [...] the end-point needs to support ntpd so that it can DESCRIBE > > its synchronization state in clear and well defined terms. > > So you want to make running NTP a prerequisite to running OWAMP. > This would be a reversal of decisions made on this list in February > 2001 (http://mailhost.advanced.org/archives/ippm/2001-February/001308.html > and its thread). > > I don't see a compelling case to make a little Ethernet switch that > might run OWAMP run NTP as well. > > -- > Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ > > "Nuclear war can ruin your whole compile." -- Karl Lehenbauer > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 2 16:37:40 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05460 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g72Ka2iU023625; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:36:02 -0400 Received: from barbarian.comsoc.org (barbarian.comsoc.org [207.127.135.8]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with SMTP id g72JOaiU007258 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:24:36 -0400 Received: from samurai.comsoc.org (samurai.comsoc.org [207.127.135.4]) by barbarian.comsoc.org (NTMail 7.02.3032/NY9491.00.1c74d96f) with ESMTP id yvbcdaaa for ippm@advanced.org; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:23:48 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020802152234.02e91538@barbarian.comsoc.org> X-Sender: g.weisman@barbarian.comsoc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:22:50 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: Gayle Weisman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-VSMLoop: comsoc.org Subject: [ippm] ICC 2003 Call for Papers Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List CALL FOR PAPERS IEEE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON COMMUNICATIONS (ICC 2003) 11-15 MAY 2003 -- ANCHORAGE, ALASKA http://www.icc2003.com ********************************************************************* **** Extended Submission Deadline: August 15, 2002 (11.59pm EST) **** ********************************************************************* The conference will consist of Tutorials, Workshop, Business Applications Sessions, and Technical Sessions. The Technical Sessions are structured as part of a GENERAL CONFERENCE and eight planned Symposia that will be held simultaneously. SYMPOSIA TOPICS * Optical Networking * Communication Theory * Next Generation Internet * Broadband Wireless & Satellite Communication Systems * Advance Signal Processing for Communications * Communication QoS, Reliability, and Performance Modeling * Global Services and Infrastructure for Next Generation Networks * Personal Communication Systems and Wireless LANs ICC 2003 is soliciting original papers describing state-of-the-art research and development in all areas of communications and networking. Proposals for business application sessions, panels, tutorials, and workshops (OTHER THAN THE ABOVE SYMPOSIA) should be submitted to the respective chairs. E-mail contacts of the chairs and more details about the conference and paper submission instructions can be found at http://www.icc2003.com Manuscript deadline (extended): 15 AUGUST 2002 [our apologies if you receive more than one copy of this email] _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Tue Aug 6 05:25:40 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA00373 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g769N3iU003585; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:23:03 -0400 Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g769M9iU003481 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:22:09 -0400 Received: from x49.ripe.net (x49.ripe.net [193.0.1.49]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.5/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g769M47F027433; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:22:04 +0200 Received: from localhost (henk@localhost) by x49.ripe.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g769M3d17647; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:22:04 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: x49.ripe.net: henk owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:22:03 +0200 (CEST) From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" To: stanislav shalunov cc: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib In-Reply-To: <87n0s5z6iz.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-RIPE-Spam-Status: NONE ; -1041 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List On 2 Aug 2002, stanislav shalunov wrote: > "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" writes: > > > I'd say "SHOULD NOT" and remove the "(e.g. a cesium ... directly)" as it > > will be very confusing. > > Henk, > > I agree. Thanks for the text suggestion. Is this what you wanted to > see? It works for me. I think so, but can you send me the whole text. I'm having trouble applying this diff to the text ;-( Henk > > diff -u -r1.39 draft-ietf-ippm-owdp.nroff > --- draft-ietf-ippm-owdp.nroff 24 Jul 2002 15:50:26 -0000 1.39 > +++ draft-ietf-ippm-owdp.nroff 2 Aug 2002 14:17:21 -0000 > @@ -979,13 +979,13 @@ > bits of the timestamp would be the same as the corresponding bits of > NTP v3 timestamp). The remaining octet specifies synchronization and > precision. The first bit is set if the party generating the timestamp has > -a clock that is synchronized to an external source (e.g., the > +a clock that is synchronized to UTC using an external source (e.g., the > bit should be set if GPS hardware is used and it indicates that it has > acquired current position and time or if NTP is used and it indicates > that it has synchronized to an external source, which includes stratum > 0 source, etc.); if there is no notion of external synchronization for > -the time source (e.g., a cesium oscillator is used directly), > -the bit SHOULD be set. The next bit is currently unused and may be > +the time source, > +the bit SHOULD NOT be set. The next bit is currently unused and may be > set to an arbitrary value. The remaining six bits form an unsigned > integer, which is the number of bits in the time-specifying main part > of the timestamp that the party generating timestamp believes to be > > -- > Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ > > Sex is the mathematics urge sublimated. -- M. C. Reed. > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal@ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ That problem that we weren't having yesterday, is it better? (Big ISP NOC) NOTE: My email address (and a hole in our mailing list software) is being abused by a spammer. We are working on fixing this hole and tracking the spammer down. If you receive mail from "henk@ripe.net" that is obviously spam, please send me a copy of the mail including ALL headers. I'm sorry for any inconvenience caused by this. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 8 01:05:40 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21302 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g78532iU006597; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:03:02 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7852giU006503 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:02:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3315C5EE82 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1691C5EE7F for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:02:41 -0400 (EDT) To: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: draft-ietf-ippm-owmetric-as-00.txt References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 08 Aug 2002 01:03:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87ptwueycf.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 85 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Sorry about letting this sit in my queue for so long. "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" writes: > > Section 3.4 `Test duration' makes an assertion about desirability of > > continuous monitoring that on the surface is obvious but in fact > > involves a subtle trade-off with ability to differentiate between > > losses and measurement device failures when periods of extended losses > > are involved. > > I'm not quite sure if I understand this comment. Suppose you want to conduct a measurement session from A to B. B stops receiving packets after a certain time and does not receive them for an hour (or a minute, or a day). Were these packets lost or did A crash? There's no sure way to tell, of course, but if you have measurement *sessions* with certain limited duriation then if no contact can be made with the host when the session ends, you will have to assume (conservatively) that A crashed. > > Section 3.5 `Data volumes' appears to fail to explain why the > > measurement traffic needs to be low volume. In fact, for some > > measurements it needs to be low and for some it must be comparable > > with link capacity. > > Such as? One-way delay -> low traffic load. Many `available capacity' measurements -> high traffic load. Reordering at line rate with a standing queue -> very high traffic load. (Probably don't want to do the last one on a production network, unless it's yours; but what if it is yours and it's December 31 and you only have five nines availability SLAs, no downtime this year, and great curiousity? Or what if the network isn't production? What if it temporarily has no users for whatever reason?) > > It should be made clear that specific metrics (such as one-way loss and > > delay) and specific methodology is discussed. Further, the number 3% is > > pulled out of the hat: 300Mb/s of active delay and loss measurement > > traffic on a 10Gb/s network is surely excessive, isn't it? > > Yes and no. The 3% number comes from discussions with providers, who > typically claim that "using a few percent" of the total capacity to > monitor the performance of their equipment. If you have a better > number, then I'd like to hear it. Also see section 3.1, if we send > 3% of 10 Gb/s measurement traffic, will we see all interesting > variations in traffic? As with any survey: What was the exact question asked? Surely, it was not `I would like to send traffic into your network (I'll also record some statistics). I'm prepared to pay your normal transit rates. How much can I send?', was it? Also, our network on many weeks exceeds 3% for active measurement (because of available capacity measurements). Are we in violation of something? > > Section 5.0 `Reporting the IPDV metric' says that `the distribution > > generally is not Gaussian and the sigma is not well defined'. Many > > non-Gaussian distributions happen to have finite standard deviation. > > Reporting standard deviation makes sense for more than Gaussian > > distribution, too. > > Yes. However, look in our latest PAM paper (or wait until my Yokohama > presentation) to see some of the typical IPDV distributions. Reporting > sigma for these distributions simply doesn't make sense. I don't disagree with the need to report IPDV stuff in a way that's different from, e.g., delay. The justification, however, is worded in a way that implies a mathematical claim (that the distribution has to be Gaussian for the standard deviation to be defined). The IPPM participants (with the exception of the possibly empty subset that is not familiar with the definition of standard deviation) understand what was meant, but an edit might decrease the probability of someone assuming that the document makes this claim about non-Gaussian distributions. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education. -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 8 06:19:21 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA06826 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g78AA4iU006565; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:10:04 -0400 Received: from dogwood.cisco.com (dogwood.cisco.com [161.44.11.19]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g78A9biU006433 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:09:37 -0400 Received: from RHOLLEYW2K1 (dhcp-64-102-43-130.cisco.com [64.102.43.130]) by dogwood.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id GAA25743 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:09:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Holley" To: Subject: RE: [ippm] Synchonization state: consistency among owdp and ippm mib Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:09:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stanislav, I've read through the email thread referenced in your earlier message (a few times) and let me make sure I have a clear view of the discussion. 1. A system reports its time, synch method and precision to another system. 2. Since we cannot be "all knowing", we have to assume the information reported by the system is correct (i.e. no malicious or unintentional mis-information in the time report). 3. Based on that information, we can make a reasonable decision on if the measurement data is acceptably accurate. If this summarizes the conclusions from the email thread, then it seems to be a reasonable and practical approach. regards ============================================ Robert Holley Network Consulting Engineer Global Solutions Engineering Cisco Systems 7025 Kit Creek Road. Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 Phone: +1 919-392-2359 Pager: +1 800-796-7363 pin 100-9187 ============================================ _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 9 10:06:32 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27692 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g79E33iU003960; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:03:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g79BVuiV012941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:31:57 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=psg.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17d7zo-000Ltr-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:31:56 -0700 To: matt@advanced.org, kaeo@merike.com Cc: ippm@advanced.org Reply-To: mankin@psg.com Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:31:53 -0700 From: Allison Mankin Message-Id: Subject: [ippm] IESG approved two IPPM documents - also two questions Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List IPPM folks, In yesterday's IESG call, two metrics i-ds you had forwarded, IP Delay Variation Metric and Periodic Streams, were passed as Proposed Standards. Congratulations! It turns out that the i-d lengths were such that they should have Table of Contents and also both chairs and I missed their non- split refs. So chairs, can you work with authors to make just these fixes (no others)? I'm airing this to the list, so everyone will know exactly what goes on :) We now split references into Normative and Informative to help with RFC 2026 process. The approvals will be announced as soon as iesg-secretary and I get cc'd on submission of the rev'd drafts. The two more general questions we had were: 1. Should we establish an IANA registry of IPPM metric names? I am not sure if there is any prospect of collison of use of these names, but would there be a value to having registry of the metrics for information and clarity in some sense? Perhaps the chairs can lead discussion on this, or perhaps this has been discussed in the past? 2. Should the Framework be extended to encompass the new metrics that the charter has recently added? Comments on the list would be well-appreciated. Best regards, Allison _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 14 15:05:10 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21555 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7EJ2aiU008632; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:02:36 -0400 Received: from parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com (parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com [194.167.105.13]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7CLnAiU032748; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:49:10 -0400 Received: from LANMHS20.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.21.60]) by parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:49:08 +0200 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: RE: [ippm] IESG approved two IPPM documents - also two questions Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [ippm] IESG approved two IPPM documents - also two questions Thread-Index: AcI/r4mHSyNtK2jhR/6F1L8qWcv34wARD6CwADBYujA= From: "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" To: , , , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2002 21:49:08.0851 (UTC) FILETIME=[16463C30:01C2424A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mailhost.advanced.org id g7CLnAiU032748 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:49:08 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi Allison, regarding Q1: The registry have been separated from the IPPM MIB to permit other MIBs (typically RMON GW MIB) to refer to IPPM metrics through pre defined OBJECT IDENTIFIER. Actually that associates definitively the metric name to the OBJECT IDENTIFIER. It permits the integration of standard metrics definition in NMS. regards Emile > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Allison Mankin [mailto:mankin@psg.com] > Envoye : vendredi 9 aout 2002 13:32 > A : matt@advanced.org; kaeo@merike.com > Cc : ippm@advanced.org > Objet : [ippm] IESG approved two IPPM documents - also two questions > > > IPPM folks, > > In yesterday's IESG call, two metrics i-ds you had forwarded, > IP Delay Variation Metric and Periodic Streams, were passed > as Proposed Standards. Congratulations! > > It turns out that the i-d lengths were such that they should have > Table of Contents and also both chairs and I missed their non- > split refs. So chairs, can you work with authors to make just these > fixes (no others)? I'm airing this to the list, so everyone will > know exactly what goes on :) > > We now split references into Normative and Informative to help > with RFC 2026 process. > > The approvals will be announced as soon as iesg-secretary and I > get cc'd on submission of the rev'd drafts. > > The two more general questions we had were: > > 1. > Should we establish an IANA registry of IPPM metric names? I am > not sure if there is any prospect of collison of use of these names, > but would there be a value to having registry of the metrics for > information and clarity in some sense? Perhaps the chairs can > lead discussion on this, or perhaps this has been discussed > in the past? > > 2. > Should the Framework be extended to encompass the new metrics that > the charter has recently added? > > Comments on the list would be well-appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Allison > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 14 15:05:42 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21587 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7EJ2iiU009011; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:02:44 -0400 Received: from parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com (parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com [194.167.105.13]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7CMG8iU003229 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:16:08 -0400 Received: from LANMHS20.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.21.60]) by parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:16:03 +0200 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: RE: [ippm] IPPM REPORTING MIB UTC Synchonization state Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [ippm] Synchonization state: 'initializing' Thread-Index: AcI5+VtFSJtEOJ5dTNCY1lQk66cQwgHf+tPg From: "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" To: "stanislav shalunov" , "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2002 22:16:03.0789 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8DA37D0:01C2424D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mailhost.advanced.org id g7CMG8iU003229 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:15:59 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Henk, Stan from my point of view the semantic of the bit S has to be clarify. It has to indicate clealy that the probe has no external time reference; It has to indicate the synchronisation state of the clock used to timestamp the packet send by the source: The results of the measure have to describe the variation of the state of network, not the uncertainty of the clock. As the semantic of the states have to be the same in the IPPM REPORTING MIB and OWAMP I propose that we modify the ippmSynchonizationState definition during the discution. ippmUTCSynchonizationState OBJECT-TYPE SYNTAX INTEGER { other(0), unsynchronized(1), synchronizing(2), synchronized(4) } MAX-ACCESS read-only STATUS current DESCRIPTION " ippmUTCSynchonizationState describes the state of the clock synchronization. The states not managed must be listed in the object ippmSystemSynchonizationDescription. The following state machine is proposed: --- other ----------- ------- unsynchronized -------- | ^ | | External clock | reference synchronization done on board in a duration > to | ippmSynchronizationTimeout | | | | V | --- synchronizing --------------------------------------- | ^ | | | | synchronization done synchronization in a duration < to lost ippmSynchronizationTimeout | | | | | | | V | --- synchronized --------------------------------------- Other(0) The status of the synchronization is unknown. example: A clock not synchronized to an external clock is 'Other'. unsynchronized(1) The system is not synchronized. example: The probe can only get time from a GPS card but the antenna is disconnected. synchronizing(2) The system is receiving synchronization information but is not yet synchronized. example: The synchonisation task switch to a stratum 1 backup because the window is temporarily blocked. synchronized(4) The system is synchronized. " regards Emile > -----Message d'origine----- > De : stanislav shalunov [mailto:shalunov@internet2.edu] > Envoye : vendredi 2 aout 2002 09:52 > A : STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN > Cc : ippm@advanced.org > Objet : Re: [ippm] Synchonization state: 'initializing' > > > "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" > writes: > > > Management systems need generic state to decide when the > > measure issued = from the probes may be used or not to compute > > trustable results. > > > > the 'initializing' state is generic enough to describe that they are > > not = yet synchrnized and that they consider to gain the > > synchronized state = soon.=20 > > How soon? > > If I was getting the time from my GPS card and I am in the process of > switching to a stratum 1 backup because the window is temporarily > blocked, am I `initializing'? > > If I only can get time from my GPS card, boot up and start up ntpd, > but the antenna is disconnected, am I `initializing'? It might take > me a day or two to synchronize. > > -- > Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ > > "Which one is worse? Both are worse." -- V. I. Lenin > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 14 15:52:37 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21554 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7EJ2qiU009550; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:02:52 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7CMShiU003948 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:28:43 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CE65EE79 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7553F5ED2E for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:28:42 -0400 (EDT) To: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] IPPM REPORTING MIB UTC Synchonization state References: From: stanislav shalunov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87adnrk8yu.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 12 Aug 2002 18:28:41 -0400 "STEPHAN Emile FTRD/DAC/LAN" writes: > other(0), > unsynchronized(1), > synchronizing(2), > synchronized(4) Emile, I don't see the difference between the first three states (other, unsynchronized, and synchronizing). What exactly is `other'? How is synchronizing different from unsynchronized? If the difference is that synchronizing plans to become synchronized at some future time while unsynchronized makes a promise to never ever become synchronized, then why would anyone possibly care to know it? A synchronizing clock is still unsynchronized. There's no indication when it will become synchronized. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Religion is the opium of them asses. --Karlm Arx _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 16 14:39:29 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27293 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7GIa4iU017736; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:36:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7C1CHiV015089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:12:18 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=psg.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3km-000A5I-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:12:16 -0700 To: emile.stephan@rd.francetelecom.com cc: matt@advanced.org, kaeo@merike.com, abierman@cisco.com, ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] IESG approved two IPPM documents - also two questions From: Allison Mankin Message-Id: Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:12:15 -0700 Emile, Hmm, when I asked about an IANA registry, mib registration hadn't come to mind, but it's an interesting point to be kept in mind as you continue the work. Thanks, Allison > hi Allison, > > regarding Q1: > > The registry have been separated from the IPPM MIB to permit other MIBs > (typically RMON GW MIB) to refer to IPPM metrics through pre defined > OBJECT IDENTIFIER. Actually that associates definitively the metric name > to the OBJECT IDENTIFIER. It permits the integration of standard metrics > definition in NMS. > > regards > Emile _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 16 14:41:33 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27421 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7GIaBiU018097; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:36:11 -0400 Received: from gamma.isi.edu (gamma.isi.edu [128.9.144.145]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7FNmCiU007616 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:48:13 -0400 Received: from ISI.EDU (jet.isi.edu [128.9.160.87]) by gamma.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7FNmAE05464; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200208152348.g7FNmAE05464@gamma.isi.edu> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ippm@advanced.org From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=NextPart Subject: [ippm] RFC 3357 on One-way Loss Pattern Sample Metrics Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:48:10 -0700 --NextPart A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 3357 Title: One-way Loss Pattern Sample Metrics Author(s): R. Koodli, R. Ravikanth Status: Informational Date: August 2002 Mailbox: rajeev.koodli@nokia.com, rravikanth@axiowave.com Pages: 15 Characters: 30570 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ippm-loss-pattern-07.txt URL: ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3357.txt Using the base loss metric defined in RFC 2680, this document defines two derived metrics "loss distance" and "loss period", and the associated statistics that together capture loss patterns experienced by packet streams on the Internet. The Internet exhibits certain specific types of behavior (e.g., bursty packet loss) that can affect the performance seen by the users as well as the operators. The loss pattern or loss distribution is a key parameter that determines the performance observed by the users for certain real-time applications such as packet voice and video. For the same loss rate, two different loss distributions could potentially produce widely different perceptions of performance. This document is a product of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution.echo Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. Joyce K. Reynolds and Sandy Ginoza USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the RFCs. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="RFC-INFO@RFC-EDITOR.ORG" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <020815164652.RFC@RFC-EDITOR.ORG> RETRIEVE: rfc DOC-ID: rfc3357 --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="rfc3357.txt"; site="ftp.isi.edu"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="in-notes" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <020815164652.RFC@RFC-EDITOR.ORG> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 16 14:51:06 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27790 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7GIh3iU021009; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:43:03 -0400 Received: from BMW (mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7GIgPiU020472 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:42:25 -0400 From: Matthew J Zekauskas To: ippm@advanced.org Message-ID: <223641839.1029508928@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [ippm] ADMIN FYI: there was a mailing list problem this week Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:42:08 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I believe is that I was not notified about pending administrative matters until Wednesday night, and then I did not have solid network access yesterday... so there was a backlog that I just finished processing. (only about 80 were "spam" email messages :). This (and the fact that I had an old rfc-editor address) is what delayed the RFC announcement mail. As far as I know, all "normal" postings occurred automatically, and all pending requests have been processed. If you sent anything in the last four days, and you have not seen in post to the list: 1. notify me 2. repost Thanks! --Matt _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Mon Aug 19 11:26:23 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05609 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7JFO3iU022146; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:24:03 -0400 Received: from byron.heanet.ie (byron.heanet.ie [193.1.219.90]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7JFNAiV021862 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:23:11 -0400 Received: from [193.1.219.219] (helo=heanet.ie) by byron.heanet.ie with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17goQ6-00072T-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:26:18 +0100 Message-ID: <3D610CDF.5743119F@heanet.ie> From: Victor Reijs Organization: HEAnet Ltd X-Sender: "Victor Reijs" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD SURFKITV4 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: nl,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Balaji H. Kasal" CC: vilho.raisanen@nokia.com, zhangr@info.net, matt@advanced.org, ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] test packet size over IP network References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:21:03 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Balaji, "Balaji H. Kasal" wrote: > > Dear friends, > > There is no single packet size which can be used for measurement, bec' > of large variation in packet sizes in Internet. > To study true application performance one should use different packet > sizes and find out the distribution. (That was most appl does... > streaming...) > Ofcourse, it is not smart to probe large packets of different sizes for > measurement. One can findout "optimal" packet size for measurement. We can > define "optimal" packet size which represents (almost... median???) > overall distribution. A possible candidate I would say is the average IP packet size: somewhere around 240 Bytes. But all the other remarks I support, though I would rather see the average size then another pick and choose size; like a small size (12 Bytes or 100 Bytes). Related to this, when determining the 'BTC', one 'normally uses the RTT'. But I also question: Which datagram size? It happens that 64 Bytes seems to provide a nice result for determining the BTC... So in that case perhaps 64 Bytes sounds oke... (so I woudl chose between 64 Bytes and the average size). Perhaps one needs multiple size, so that one can determine the formula of Henk. All the best, Victor -- PGP public key: http://www.heanet.ie/heanet/projects/nat_infrastruct/pubkey.html H.323 GDS: +00353 01101001 H.323 ViDiNet: +61330060909 01101001 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Tue Aug 20 15:38:37 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23502 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7KJa3iU002986; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:36:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7KJZoiU002798 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:35:51 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23289; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208201934.PAA23289@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ippm@advanced.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:34:25 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : A One-way Active Measurement Protocol Requirements Author(s) : S. Shalunov, B. Teitelbaum Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt Pages : 10 Date : 16-Aug-02 With growing availability of good time sources to network nodes, it becomes increasingly possible to measure one-way IP performance metrics with high precision. To do so in an interoperable manner, a common protocol for such measurements is required. This document specifies requirements for a one-way active measurement protocol (OWAMP) standard. The protocol can measure one-way delay, as well as other unidirectional characteristics, such as one-way loss. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020816131452.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020816131452.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Tue Aug 20 16:17:28 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25033 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7KKE3iU013115; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:14:03 -0400 Received: from mail.internet2.edu (mail.internet2.edu [209.211.239.218]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7KKDKiU012828 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:13:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F735ED37 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5901E5ED1D for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:13:19 -0400 (EDT) To: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt References: <200208201934.PAA23289@ietf.org> From: stanislav shalunov In-Reply-To: <200208201934.PAA23289@ietf.org> Message-ID: <87elctxp9d.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 20 Aug 2002 16:13:18 -0400 Clarification: draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-03.txt differs from draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-reqs-02.txt by one word that clarifies a sentence but does not change the intented meaning (based on a private comment by Benoit Claise). It is a very minor editorial revision. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "Nuclear war can ruin your whole compile." -- Karl Lehenbauer _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 22 17:54:12 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11801 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7MLg4iU016077; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:42:04 -0400 Received: from er4hp030.eng.ohio-state.edu (er4hp030.eng.ohio-state.edu [164.107.161.31]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7MLWwiU014830 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:32:59 -0400 Received: (from ekici@localhost) by er4hp030.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.7.3) id RAA12962 for ippm@advanced.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:32:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Eylem Ekici Message-Id: <200208222132.RAA12962@er4hp030.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: ippm@advanced.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [ippm] SNPA 2003 CFP - First IEEE Workshop on Sensor Network Protocols and Applications Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our apologies if you have received multiple copies of this CFP. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS IEEE ICC 2003 Workshop SNPA 2003 First IEEE International Workshop on Sensor Network Protocols and Applications in Conjunction with IEEE ICC 2003 May 11, 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- URLs: SNPA 2003: http://www.icc2003.com/workshop1.html ICC 2003: http://www.icc2003.com Submission Deadline: October 22, 2002 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- SCOPE Wireless Sensor Networks (WSNs) are fast emerging as a new sensing paradigm based on the collaborative effort of large number of sensors deployed close to or inside the phenomenon to be observed, and have the potential of providing diverse services to numerous applications. The realization of WSNs require intensive technical research efforts especially in power aware scalable wireless ad hoc communications protocols due to their unusual application requirements and unique constraints such as - WSNs are generally composed of large number of nodes that have limited computational and storage capacity. - In many applications, sensor nodes are expected to be randomly scattered in unreachable regions. - The lifetime of a sensor network is generally limited to the battery lifetime of sensor nodes. SNPA 2003 is intended to provide a forum for researchers to present their contributions as technical papers related to communication protocols for WSNs, data management, access, aggregation and fusion techniques, and sensor network applications. The papers solicited in SNPA 2003 cover a variety of topics including but not limited to: - Communication protocols for Wireless Sensor Networks at all layers - Novel sensor network applications and services - Self organizing and scalable sensor network architectures - Software platforms and tools for sensor network application development - Energy efficient medium access control, error control, and traffic management protocols - Energy efficient system services such as localization and time synchronization - Robust distributed algorithms for collaborative processing - Mechanisms, protocols and algorithms for authenticated, secure communication - Application specific network and system services, including data-centric routing, attribute based addressing and location management - Data querying and dissemination - Data compression, association, aggregation and fusion SUBMISSION INSTRUCTIONS The papers should confirm with ICC 2003 paper format and can be up to 11 pages long. Authors should submit a PDF version of their paper to snpa03@cs.itu.edu.tr according to the following timetable Manuscript Due: October 22, 2002 Acceptance Notification: December 17, 2002 Final Manuscript Due: January 14, 2003 Workshop Date: May 11, 2003 ORGANIZATION PROGRAM CO-CHAIRS Erdal Cayirci Department of Computer Engineering Istanbul Technical University Istanbul E-mail: erdal@ece.gatech.edu Taieb Znati Div.of Adv.Net.Inf.& Res. NSF Arlington, VA 22230 E-mail: tznati@nsf.gov TECHNICAL PROGRAM COMMITTEE * Sebnem Baydere (Yeditepe University) * Azzedine Boukerche (University of North Texas) * Erdal Cayirci (Istanbul Technical University) * Eylem Ekici (Ohio State University) * Deborah Estrin (UCLA) * John Heidemann (ISI) * Bashkar Khrisnamachari (Cornell) * Sri Kumar (DARPA) * Geng-Sheng Kuo (National Chengchi University) * Stephen Olariu (Old Dominion University) * Sergio Palazzo (University of Catania) * Chiara Petrioli (Roma University) * Parmesh Ramanathan (University of Wisconsin) * Suresh Singh (Portland State University) * Stephen Wicker (Cornell) * Adam Wolisz (Technical University of Berlin) * Michele Zorzi (Universita' di Ferrara) PUBLICITY CO-CHAIR Eylem Ekici Ohio State University E-mail: ekici@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu SPONSORS Sponsored by the following IEEE Communications Society Technical Committees: * Tactical Communications * Personal Communications (Pending) * Radio Communications (Pending) _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Sun Aug 25 05:17:50 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06355 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7P9B4iU004561; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:11:04 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iitb.ac.in (mailhost.iitb.ac.in [203.197.74.142]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with SMTP id g7P9A0iU004338 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:10:01 -0400 Received: (qmail 14462 invoked from network); 25 Aug 2002 09:09:59 -0000 Received: from mailscan1.iitb.ac.in (HELO thisdomain) (144.16.108.201) by mailhost.iitb.ac.in with SMTP; 25 Aug 2002 09:09:59 -0000 Received: from bhairav.ee.iitb.ac.in by iitb.ac.in ; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:39:56 +0530 X-Originating-IP: 144.16.100.100 X-Auth-User: balaji@ee.iitb.ac.in Received: from brahmi.ee.iitb.ac.in (sharada.ee.iitb.ac.in [10.107.1.2]) by bhairav.ee.iitb.ac.in (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7P99jkt001980; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:39:47 +0530 (IST) Received: from localhost (balaji@localhost) by brahmi.ee.iitb.ac.in (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7P92kn23770; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:32:51 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: brahmi.ee.iitb.ac.in: balaji owned process doing -bs From: "Balaji H. Kasal" To: Victor Reijs cc: vilho.raisanen@nokia.com, , , Subject: Re: [ippm] test packet size over IP network In-Reply-To: <3D610CDF.5743119F@heanet.ie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:32:46 +0530 (IST) Hello Victor, > "Balaji H. Kasal" wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > There is no single packet size which can be used for measurement, bec' > > of large variation in packet sizes in Internet. > > To study true application performance one should use different packet > > sizes and find out the distribution. (That was most appl does... > > streaming...) > > Ofcourse, it is not smart to probe large packets of different sizes for > > measurement. One can findout "optimal" packet size for measurement. We can > > define "optimal" packet size which represents (almost... median???) > > overall distribution. > > A possible candidate I would say is the average IP packet size: > somewhere around 240 Bytes. How did you come with this 240 byte number. Did u have dome extensive experimanets? Please let me know. Thanx... --Balaji > But all the other remarks I support, though I would rather see > the average size then another pick and choose size; like a small > size (12 Bytes or 100 Bytes). > Related to this, when determining the 'BTC', one 'normally uses > the RTT'. But I also question: Which datagram size? It happens > that 64 Bytes seems to provide a nice result for determining the > BTC... > So in that case perhaps 64 Bytes sounds oke... (so I woudl chose > between 64 Bytes and the average size). Perhaps one needs > multiple size, so that one can determine the formula of Henk. > > All the best, > > > Victor > -- Regards, --Balaji _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Mon Aug 26 02:03:40 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA24698 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 02:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7Q624iU027664; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 02:02:04 -0400 Received: from odin.isw.intel.com (swfdns01.isw.intel.com [192.55.37.143]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7Q61YiU027570 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 02:01:34 -0400 Received: from swsmsxvs01.isw.intel.com (swsmsxvs01.isw.intel.com [172.28.130.22]) by odin.isw.intel.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/d: solo.mc,v 1.42 2002/05/23 22:21:11 root Exp $) with SMTP id g7Q61XY05784 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 06:01:33 GMT Received: from swsmsx17.isw.intel.com ([172.28.130.21]) by swsmsxvs01.isw.intel.com (NAVGW 2.5.2.11) with SMTP id M2002082607001003035 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:00:10 +0100 Received: by swsmsx17.isw.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:05:43 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Pusz, Mateuszx" To: "'ippm@advanced.org'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Subject: [ippm] IP ID problem Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:01:21 +0100 Hello I have following problem. I have to make an application which will monitor and analyze streams of IP packets in the Internet (for example VoIP transmission) in real time. It must measure such QoS parameters as OTT, OTT variation, and some more parameters. To do that I have to find out how to uniquelly identify measured packets on the end-points of the connection. Some time ago I decided to use IP ID and IP offset to do that but I discovered that my RedHat Linux sends UDP packets with the same IP ID value in IP header (transfer is beetween the same sockets on the peers). Of course there is DF flag set in each packet. I must add that IP packets have that field filled and as you all know it has unique TCP sequence number already (DF flag is also set). Why in the same system IP packets for TCP and UDP traffic differ? Do you know how many current IP implementations do the same? Is it a big percent of all UDP traffic in the Internet? I'm not an originator of measured traffic so kernel recompilation or manual setting of IP ID field in each packet is not the answer for me. I don't want to compare data field of the UDP header because that data are not store on local system but are being sent to analyzer process somewhere in the Internet so it could increase load of the measured links. The only field that differ for each packets is UDP checksum but firstly it is not uniqe for different data in the packet and secondly it must not be set in the UDP header. There is also IP total length field but I think it is not the answer. Do you have any suggestions how to deal with that problem? Please help me. Best regards Mateusz Pusz _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Mon Aug 26 04:36:29 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA03758 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7Q8Y3iU008216; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:34:03 -0400 Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7Q8XRiU008116 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:33:27 -0400 Received: from fokus.fhg.de (dhcp119 [195.37.78.119]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7Q8XN203494; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:33:23 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <3D69E73D.8080102@fokus.fhg.de> From: Tanja Zseby Organization: FhI FOKUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pusz, Mateuszx" CC: "'ippm@advanced.org'" Subject: Re: [ippm] IP ID problem References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:30:53 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mateusz, we had the same problem for passive measurement of one-way-delay. We decided to use a packet ID which is generated based on the invariant fields of the packet header for identifying packest at different measurement points. This concept (using a CRC-based packet ID) was introduced in Ian D. GRAHAM, Stephen F. DONNELLY, Stele MARTIN, Jed MARTENS, John G. CLEARY: Nonintrusive and Accurate Measurement of Unidirectional Delay and Delay Variation on the Internet, INET'98, Geneva, Switzerland, 21-24 July, 1998 A hash-based packet ID can be found in: Nick Duffield, Matthias Grossglauser: Trajectory Sampling for Direct Traffic Observation, Proceedings of ACM SIGCOMM 2000, Stockholm, Sweden, August 28 - September 1, 2000. In our PAM 2001 poster presentation we had a look at different packet IDs for one-way-delay measurements and compared their sizes and collision probability. You can find the document Tanja Zseby, Sebastian Zander, Georg Carle: Evaluation of Building Blocks for Passive One-way-delay Measurements, PAM 2001 on the PAM 2001 pages: http://www.ripe.net/pam2001/program.html We also had the problem that Linux 2.4 sets the datagram ID to zero (probably due to security reasosns ). Although this implementation is fully interoperable (because the dont fragment flag is set) I am in doubt whether this behavior conforms to RFC791 which states that an identifier has to be chosen that is "unique for this source destination pair and protocol for the time the datagram (or any fragment of it) could be active in the network". Hope this helps Tanja Pusz, Mateuszx wrote: >Hello > >I have following problem. I have to make an application which will monitor >and analyze streams of IP packets in the Internet (for example VoIP >transmission) in real time. It must measure such QoS parameters as OTT, OTT >variation, and some more parameters. To do that I have to find out how to >uniquelly identify measured packets on the end-points of the connection. > >Some time ago I decided to use IP ID and IP offset to do that but I >discovered that my RedHat Linux sends UDP packets with the same IP ID value >in IP header (transfer is beetween the same sockets on the peers). Of course >there is DF flag set in each packet. I must add that IP packets have that >field filled and as you all know it has unique TCP sequence number already >(DF flag is also set). Why in the same system IP packets for TCP and UDP >traffic differ? > >Do you know how many current IP implementations do the same? Is it a big >percent of all UDP traffic in the Internet? > >I'm not an originator of measured traffic so kernel recompilation or manual >setting of IP ID field in each packet is not the answer for me. I don't want >to compare data field of the UDP header because that data are not store on >local system but are being sent to analyzer process somewhere in the >Internet so it could increase load of the measured links. The only field >that differ for each packets is UDP checksum but firstly it is not uniqe for >different data in the packet and secondly it must not be set in the UDP >header. There is also IP total length field but I think it is not the >answer. > >Do you have any suggestions how to deal with that problem? > >Please help me. > >Best regards > > >Mateusz Pusz >_______________________________________________ >ippm mailing list >ippm@advanced.org >http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > -- Dipl.-Ing. Tanja Zseby FhI FOKUS/Global Networking Email: zseby@fokus.fhg.de Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 31 Phone: +49-30-3463-7153 D-10589 Berlin, Germany Fax: +49-30-3463-8153 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Living on earth is expensive but it includes a free trip around the sun." (Anonymous) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Mon Aug 26 11:49:56 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11972 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7QFm4iU002357; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:48:04 -0400 Received: from byron.heanet.ie (byron.heanet.ie [193.1.219.90]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7QFlFiV002030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:47:18 -0400 Received: from [193.1.219.219] (helo=heanet.ie) by byron.heanet.ie with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17jM55-0005yH-00; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:47:07 +0100 Message-ID: <3D6A4CFF.B3A79504@heanet.ie> From: Victor Reijs Organization: HEAnet Ltd X-Sender: "Victor Reijs" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD SURFKITV4 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: nl,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Balaji H. Kasal" CC: vilho.raisanen@nokia.com, zhangr@info.net, matt@advanced.org, ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] test packet size over IP network References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:45:03 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kasal, "Balaji H. Kasal" wrote: > > How did you come with this 240 byte number. Did u have dome extensive > experimanets? Please let me know. http://www.surfnet.nl/surfnet/persons/reijs/sn4/atmcalc.htm No real extensive experiments. I used a few files from the internet. See also above link. The 'average' size will vary of course... All the best, Victor -- PGP public key: http://www.heanet.ie/heanet/projects/nat_infrastruct/pubkey.html H.323 GDS: +00353 01101001 H.323 ViDiNet: +61330060909 01101001 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 08:05:23 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25851 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SBx3iU021098; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:59:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SBwgiU020898 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:58:42 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA24930; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208281157.HAA24930@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ippm@advanced.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-ipdv-10.txt Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:57:12 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Packet Delay Variation Metric for IPPM Author(s) : C. Demichelis, P. Chimento Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ipdv-10.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2002-8-27 This memo refers to a metric for variation in delay of packets across Internet paths. The metric is based on the difference in the One-Way- Delay of selected packets. This difference in delay is called 'IP Packet Delay variation.' The metric is valid for measurements between two hosts both in the case that they have synchronized clocks and in the case that they are not synchronized. We discuss both in this draft. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-ipdv-10.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-8-27144747.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-ipdv-10.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-ipdv-10.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-8-27144747.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 10:44:35 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02399 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SEd4iU002201; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:39:04 -0400 Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (odd-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.119]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SEcYiU001967 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:38:35 -0400 Received: from banana.cisco.com (banana.cisco.com [144.254.14.18]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id g7SEcX716115 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:38:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Emmanuel Tychon To: ippm@advanced.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Message-Id: <1030545513.21548.26.camel@banana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ippm] Jitter aggregation Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 28 Aug 2002 16:38:33 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have a quite rather simple question, but haven't found yet any answer that convince me. Is there a way to calculate a global jitter based on multiple measured jitter? Let me show an example, with this network composed of 3 routers in line: [Ra] ----- [Rb] ----- [Rc] I measure the jitter 'J_ab' and 'J_bc' respectively on the Ra->Rb and Rb->Rc links. Now I want to calculate the corresponding jitter 'J_ac' on the Ra->Rc path. The big difference between jitter and other values is that jitter can be positive (arrive later than expected), negative (arrive sooner than expected) or null. If Ra->Rb tends to give more positive jitter, and Rb->Rc give more negative jitter, the total jitter is not a simple addition, but something much more elaborated if ever there is something. Thanks in advance, Emmanuel Tychon _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 12:18:09 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07318 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SGG3iU026337; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:16:04 -0400 Received: from emerson.torrentnet.com (emerson.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.110]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SGFliU026243 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:15:48 -0400 Received: from imperial.torrentnet.com (imperial.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.109]) by emerson.torrentnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7SGFWY32906; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from malibu.torrentnet.com (malibu.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.100]) by imperial.torrentnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7SGFWt95926; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from malibu.torrentnet.com (chimento@localhost) by malibu.torrentnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7SGFVI11855; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208281615.g7SGFVI11855@malibu.torrentnet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Emmanuel Tychon cc: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Jitter aggregation In-Reply-To: Message from Emmanuel Tychon of "28 Aug 2002 16:38:33 +0200." <1030545513.21548.26.camel@banana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Philip Chimento Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:15:31 -0400 Emmanuel: It depends. If you are measuring IP packet delay variation (IPDV ~ "jitter") and computing estimated means, then the estimates always add (in the limit), even if the random variables (i.e. the "jitter" at each stage) are dependent in complicated ways. However, the distributions, because the "jitter" at successive stages is not independent, can't even be convolved in a simple way. Worse yet, if you are interested in a particular flow, it may "see" "jitter" that is much worse (or much better) than the average, depending on how the packet timing is distorted at the previous stage(s) and the nature of the delays at a given node. For example, in your case, if the delay introduced at Rb is cyclic and the flow of interest happens to arrive in a pattern that say introduces close to (+-) maximum delay on every other packet of the flow, you will get an arrival pattern at the endpoint that looks something like this: <------------ TIME |----------|----------|----------|----------|----------| xx xx x which will be pretty bad but also pretty far from the average probably. Hope this helps. Regards, Phil Chimento _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 12:32:16 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08014 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SGT4iU030640; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:29:04 -0400 Received: from auds953.usa.alcatel.com (auds953.usa.alcatel.com [143.209.238.6]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SGSbiU030459 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:28:37 -0400 Received: from morgoth.pet.usa.alcatel.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by auds953.usa.alcatel.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7SGSaM22870; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:28:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alcatel.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by morgoth.pet.usa.alcatel.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7SGSuW28453; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D6CFA30.AD64F3D2@alcatel.com> From: Mudhafar Hassan-Ali Organization: Alcatel, USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emmanuel Tychon CC: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Jitter aggregation References: <1030545513.21548.26.camel@banana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:28:32 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Emmanuel, First, one needs to specify the method of jitter measurement (one point delay vs. two point delay). Second, since the delay is a random variable, hence jitter, and by accumulating (adding) the jitter injected by each switch/router along the path, then, by probability law, the resulting jitter is the convolution of the jitter distributions along the path (in your example, J_abc= J_ab*J_bc, where * denotes the convolution operation). Mudhafar Emmanuel Tychon wrote: > Hello, > > I have a quite rather simple question, but haven't found yet any answer > that convince me. Is there a way to calculate a global jitter based on > multiple measured jitter? > > Let me show an example, with this network composed of 3 routers in line: > > [Ra] ----- [Rb] ----- [Rc] > > I measure the jitter 'J_ab' and 'J_bc' respectively on the Ra->Rb and > Rb->Rc links. Now I want to calculate the corresponding jitter 'J_ac' on > the Ra->Rc path. > > The big difference between jitter and other values is that jitter can be > positive (arrive later than expected), negative (arrive sooner than > expected) or null. > > If Ra->Rb tends to give more positive jitter, and Rb->Rc give more > negative jitter, the total jitter is not a simple addition, but > something much more elaborated if ever there is something. > > Thanks in advance, > Emmanuel Tychon > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 12:48:24 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08609 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SGl3iU003455; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:47:03 -0400 Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (odd-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.119]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SGkviU003361 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:46:58 -0400 Received: from banana.cisco.com (banana.cisco.com [144.254.14.18]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id g7SGkt715026; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [ippm] Jitter aggregation From: Emmanuel Tychon To: Philip Chimento Cc: ippm@advanced.org In-Reply-To: <200208281615.g7SGFVI11855@malibu.torrentnet.com> References: <200208281615.g7SGFVI11855@malibu.torrentnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Message-Id: <1030553215.21690.65.camel@banana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 28 Aug 2002 18:46:55 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philip, Thank you for your answer, and please see comments in-line: > It depends. If you are measuring IP packet delay variation (IPDV ~ "jitter") > and computing estimated means, then the estimates always add (in the limit), > even if the random variables (i.e. the "jitter" at each stage) are dependent > in complicated ways. So what you say is that, if I measure IP packet delay variation, the estimated means can be blindly added? What changes is the distribution. > However, the distributions, because the "jitter" at successive stages is not > independent, can't even be convolved in a simple way. Worse yet, if you are > interested in a particular flow, it may "see" "jitter" that is much worse (or > much better) than the average, depending on how the packet timing is distorted > at the previous stage(s) and the nature of the delays at a given node. This is what scares me. The main purpose of this measurement is to assure that 95% of the packets are under a certain jitter - one of the important parameter for a good voice-over-ip communication. So what we need is the 95th percentile, and unless I do measure it end-to-end, there is no way I can calculate it: it can only be measured. In a typical network that classifies traffic, the jitter introduces at each hop is pretty random and depends vastly on the traffic sent in other classes as well as the queuing mechanism and other minor factors. With all of this in mind, would you agree to say that calculations based on IP inter-packet delay variation are risky operations that should be avoided? Thank you, e. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 14:28:39 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13319 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SIR3iU001528; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:27:03 -0400 Received: from auds953.usa.alcatel.com (auds953.usa.alcatel.com [143.209.238.6]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SIQUiU001426 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:26:30 -0400 Received: from morgoth.pet.usa.alcatel.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by auds953.usa.alcatel.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7SIQTM18969; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:26:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alcatel.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by morgoth.pet.usa.alcatel.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7SIQmW01479; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D6D15D0.3B3EE733@alcatel.com> From: Mudhafar Hassan-Ali Organization: Alcatel, USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emmanuel Tychon CC: Philip Chimento , ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Jitter aggregation References: <200208281615.g7SGFVI11855@malibu.torrentnet.com> <1030553215.21690.65.camel@banana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:26:24 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Emmanuel, It is true that dependency (correlation) of the jitter distribution exists in consecutive stages, making the total jitter distribution difficult to estimate. However, in a heavy load case (that is when you need to be worrying about the accuracy of the jitter any ways), this correlation loosens up leading to the use of convolution to estimate the total distribution. The trick is to know the distribution at each stage measured or estimated under a "typical load pattern". Mudhafar P.S. Since you are talking about voice over packet, you may want to look at: 1. KEES VAN DER WAL, MICHEL MANDJES, AND HARRIE BASTIAANSEN, "Delay Performance Analysis of the New Internet Services with Guaranteed QoS" PROCEEDINGS OF THE IEEE, VOL. 85, NO. 12, DECEMBER 1997. 2. ITU-T I.741, "Interworking and interconnection between ATM and switched telephone networks for the transmission of speech, voiceband data and audio signals" June 1999. Emmanuel Tychon wrote: > Philip, > > Thank you for your answer, and please see comments in-line: > > > It depends. If you are measuring IP packet delay variation (IPDV ~ "jitter") > > and computing estimated means, then the estimates always add (in the limit), > > even if the random variables (i.e. the "jitter" at each stage) are dependent > > in complicated ways. > > So what you say is that, if I measure IP packet delay variation, the > estimated means can be blindly added? What changes is the distribution. > > > However, the distributions, because the "jitter" at successive stages is not > > independent, can't even be convolved in a simple way. Worse yet, if you are > > interested in a particular flow, it may "see" "jitter" that is much worse (or > > much better) than the average, depending on how the packet timing is distorted > > at the previous stage(s) and the nature of the delays at a given node. > > This is what scares me. The main purpose of this measurement is to > assure that 95% of the packets are under a certain jitter - one of the > important parameter for a good voice-over-ip communication. So what we > need is the 95th percentile, and unless I do measure it end-to-end, > there is no way I can calculate it: it can only be measured. > > In a typical network that classifies traffic, the jitter introduces at > each hop is pretty random and depends vastly on the traffic sent in > other classes as well as the queuing mechanism and other minor factors. > > With all of this in mind, would you agree to say that calculations based > on IP inter-packet delay variation are risky operations that should be > avoided? > > Thank you, > e. > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@advanced.org > http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 15:21:10 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14952 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SJH3iU014929; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:17:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7RIugiU005800 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:56:42 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06546 for <1timer>; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208271844.OAA06546@ietf.org> From: Phil Roberts To: IETF WG Participants: ; Subject: [ippm] Nomcom call for volunteers Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:44:44 -0400 The members of the IESG and IAB and the IETF chair are selected by a nominations committee made up of volunteers from the IETF community. The nominations committee is now in the process of being formed and volunteers are being accepted until Sep 6. Please see (http://www.ietf.org/nomcom/msg19765.html) for information if you are interested in volunteering to be on the nominations committee. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 15:21:25 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14969 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SJHAiU015265; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:17:10 -0400 Received: from dgesmtp01.wcom.com (dgesmtp01.wcom.com [199.249.16.16]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SIXDiU004347 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:33:13 -0400 Received: from dgismtp01.wcomnet.com ([166.38.58.141]) by firewall.wcom.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.7 (built May 7 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1K0012FGUBI6@firewall.wcom.com> for ippm@advanced.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:33:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dgismtp01.wcomnet.com by dgismtp01.wcomnet.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.7 (built May 7 2002)) with SMTP id <0H1K00I01GT1SZ@dgismtp01.wcomnet.com>; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from durian ([166.60.2.77]) by dgismtp01.wcomnet.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.7 (built May 7 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1K00I1DGUFWA@dgismtp01.wcomnet.com>; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:32:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Jambi Ganbar Subject: Re: [ippm] Jitter aggregation In-reply-to: <1030553215.21690.65.camel@banana> X-X-Sender: bigj@durian To: Emmanuel Tychon Cc: Philip Chimento , ippm@advanced.org Reply-to: jambi.ganbar@wcom.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Emmanuel, see in line. > This is what scares me. The main purpose of this measurement is to > assure that 95% of the packets are under a certain jitter - one of the > important parameter for a good voice-over-ip communication. So what we > need is the 95th percentile, and unless I do measure it end-to-end, > there is no way I can calculate it: it can only be measured. I think that this point was raised on this group a few times. The question that you need to answer for yourself is "why am I measuring?" If you are trying to measure a certain call quality for VoIP then your end user perception is the most important value and an end-2-end test is perhaps what is needed. > In a typical network that classifies traffic, the jitter introduces at > each hop is pretty random and depends vastly on the traffic sent in > other classes as well as the queuing mechanism and other minor factors. Exactly why you need to test end-2-end to account for all potential variables. > With all of this in mind, would you agree to say that calculations based > on IP inter-packet delay variation are risky operations that should be > avoided? I would most definitely not agree with the above statement. Jambi vBNS Engineering. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Wed Aug 28 16:05:24 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16609 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SK16iU024660; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:01:06 -0400 Received: from mx0.rambler.ru (mx0.rambler.ru [81.19.66.47]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7SAAFiU008490 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:10:16 -0400 Received: from mail8.rambler.ru (mail8.rambler.ru [217.73.192.30]) by mx0.rambler.ru (Postfix) with SMTP id E70A855CA58 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:15:54 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from christin198@rambler.ru) Received: from 217.73.192.36 by rambler.ru with SMTP id AA06798 for ippm@advanced.org; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:05:36 +0400 (MSD) From: Christina Christina To: ippm@advanced.org Message-Id: <3D6CA0E7.AA16177@mb3.rambler.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ippm] (no subject) Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:07:35 +0400 (MSD) Hi! My name is Christina.I need your help very much. I have 2 questions about ATM technology. please, answer my questions. 1) I want to know whether I anderstood the ATM Time Division Multiplexing correctly. I'll describe a simple example: suppose one phone and one video devices are attached to the source. Suppose VPI/VCI=1/7 and VPI/VCI=1/8 connections are dedicated for those voice and video streams respectively. And consequently there are one queue for voice cells and one queue for video cells in the source. Suppose the interface link rate is 12 cells/second. Suppose those virtual connections are of CBR type,and PCR=5 cells/second and PCR=7 cells/second bandwidths are allocated to those connections respectively. In ATM time division multiplexing the source sends x+y cells at every second, where x=5 cells are from the queue of the VPI/VCI=1/7 virtual connection (i.e., from the queue of voice cells) and y=7 cells are from the queue of the VPI/VCI=1/8 connection (i.e., from the queue of video cells). Am I right? If I am not right, please, explain the ATM cell multiplexing on my example. 2) suppose we have 2 connections, one is CBR connection with PCR=10 cells/second bandwidth and the other is VBR connection with PCR=20 cells/second bandwidth. Suppose the statistical TDM multiplexing is used,and the interface rate is 30 cells/second. If both connections have data to send, the multiplexer at every second will send 10 cells from the first connection and 20 cells from the second connection. Suppose the second connection has no data to send at the next second. instead of sending 10 idle cells from that connection, the statistical multiplexer will send 30 cells from the first connection, i.e. the first connection exceeded its PCR. Consequently excessive cell delay variation was observed at the receiving side(i.e., cell clumping). Am I right? If I am not right, please, explain how a Cell Delay Variation is observed by the ATM multiplexing. Thank you in advance! ---- http://www.rambler.ru _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 29 02:08:49 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA05265 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7T674iU003832; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:07:04 -0400 Received: from web11604.mail.yahoo.com (web11604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.56]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with SMTP id g7T66SiU003617 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:06:29 -0400 Message-ID: <20020829060628.58838.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [137.219.47.37] by web11604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:06:28 PDT From: Huan Pham Reply-To: pnhuan@yahoo.com To: ippm@advanced.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [ippm] IP Network Performance Objective Function Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Dear folks, I am doing a project on optimizing IP network performance, but I am having difficulty in defining a commonly accepted network performance criterion. Since I am optimizing the network in a offline mode, before it is implemented, any measurement QoS are not practical. Network operators most commonly turn to maximum link utilization as the (resource oriented) performance objective function. This does not always mean the optimal QoS performance for end users, especially at low load. For example a very long path may be chosen, meaning a much higher end-to-end delay, just to reduce the maximum link utilisation by a small fraction. Other approaches use a piece-wise convex function of the link utilisation. However, this does not directly relate to end-user QoS and therefore does not reasonably represent QoS from users' point of view. I am keen to use theoretical average end-to-end packet delay, given unlimited queue size at routers, as the objective function. This is because, at low load (Utilisation <30%), the packet delay is the most significant QoS for end-users (compared to throughput, and packet loss). At higher load (utilisation = 30-70%), unlike practical packet delay which may level off, the theoretical packet delay increases very sharply as the link utilisation increases. As a result, minimizing the e2e theoretical delay gives priority in reducing the maximum link utilisation, which has most influence on end users' QoS. More detailed discussion on this topic can be found at http://www.cs.jcu.edu.au/~huan/draft/net_perofmance.pdf (35 KB) or http://www.cs.jcu.edu.au/~huan/draft/net_perofmance.doc (500 KB) Your comments on this are very appreciated. Huan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Thu Aug 29 10:41:31 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24491 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7TEc4iU029859; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:38:04 -0400 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7TEJtiU026455 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:19:55 -0400 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70166408F for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from guns.lerc.nasa.gov (guns.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.87.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC 8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g7TEJsBg025262 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from guns.lerc.nasa.gov (localhost.lerc.nasa.gov [127.0.0.1]) by guns.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-local) id KAA93326; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208291419.KAA93326@guns.lerc.nasa.gov> To: ippm@advanced.org From: Mark Allman Reply-To: mallman@grc.nasa.gov Organization: BBN Technologies/NASA GRC Song-of-the-Day: Mexicali Blues Subject: [ippm] irtf-chair@ietf.org: Internet Measurement Research Group Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:19:40 -0400 I have a suspicion that some of the folks on this list may be interested in the following announcement about an Internet measurement group within the IRTF. allman ------- Forwarded Message From: irtf-chair@ietf.org To: IETF-Announce:;;@loki.ietf.org Subject: Internet Measurement Research Group Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 07:24:02 -0400 A new IRTF research group, IMRG (Internet Measurement Research Group), has begun, with the appended charter. Use imrg-request@ietf.org to subscribe to the mailing list. See http://imrg.grc.nasa.gov/imrg/ for further information. - - Vern Paxson (IRTF chair) - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ There is considerable network measurement work being conducted within the Internet community -- both in standards bodies (e.g., IETF IPPM WG) and in various research labs. The goal of the Internet Measurement Research Group (IMRG) is to provide a venue to: (1) provide a forum for discussion of Internet measurement research issues, (2) aid in the coordination of various research projects, (3) assess new measurement techniques, and (4) increase interactions between operators, developers of measurement tools and techniques, and researchers who analyze and model Internet dynamics. The scope includes all kinds of network measurement (active techniques, passive monitoring, end-point probing, in-network methods, network layer, transport layer, application layer, etc.). The RG will both attempt to design new measurement techniques and analyze measurements of the network taken. The following represent examples of the types of projects that the RG might undertake: Tackle outstanding issues dealing with measurement infrastructures (e.g., Surveyor, NIMI), such as: scalability of meshes, security of measurement tools in the mesh, access control, resource control, scheduling issues. Tackle the often thorny issue of sharing measurement data within the community. The RG could define a systematic way for storing measurements and any needed meta-data that should be kept with the measurements. In addition, the RG could foster research into systems for remote requests for measurement, analysis, and anonymization, facilitating a formed of reduced access to data that cannot be directly released. Provide a venue for assessing new measurement techniques, and a forum for sharing preliminary findings in rough form, to encourage further work and collaboration. Provide a venue for developing models based on network measurements, helping to better understand network dynamics and aiding researchers attempting to conduct useful simulations of the network. Foster communication between the research and operations communities. For example, operators could provide feedback to researchers as to what sorts of network properties/characteristics they would like to see measured, and how well current techniques work. Catalog core problems that need to be addressed. Even if the RG is not actively working on these problems, having a "wish list" of outstanding problems may foster work in these areas. Coordination - the RG will provide: A venue for exploring measurement techniques before they are ready to be standardized by the IETF (in IPPM, for instance). A venue for discussing real world experience with IETF defined metrics and measurement techniques. A "measurement arm" to various IETF working groups to gain a better understanding of how protocols work in the wild (e.g., which HTTP capabilities are being implemented or the performance of the global DNS system). ------- End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 30 07:55:59 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12602 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7UBq4iU031110; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:52:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7UBp5iU030916 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:51:05 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12218; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208301149.HAA12218@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ippm@advanced.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:49:27 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : Network performance measurement for periodic streams Author(s) : V. Raisanen, G. Grotefeld, A. Morton Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2002-8-29 This memo describes a periodic sampling method and relevant metrics for assessing the performance of IP networks. First, the memo motivates periodic sampling and addresses the question of its value as an alternative to Poisson sampling described in RFC 2330. The benefits include applicability to active and passive measurements, simulation of constant bit rate (CBR) traffic (typical of multimedia communication, or nearly CBR, as found with voice activity detection), and several instances where analysis can be simplified. The sampling method avoids predictability by mandating random start times and finite length tests. Following descriptions of the sampling method and sample metric parameters, measurement methods and errors are discussed. Finally, we give additional information on periodic measurements including security considerations. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-8-29142307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-npmps-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-8-29142307.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 30 08:03:36 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA13016 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7UC13iU001218; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:01:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7UC0niU001114 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:00:50 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12745; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208301159.HAA12745@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: RFC Editor , Internet Architecture Board , ippm@advanced.org From: The IESG Subject: [ippm] Protocol Action: IP Packet Delay Variation Metric for IPPM to Proposed Standard Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:59:15 -0400 The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'IP Packet Delay Variation Metric for IPPM' as a Proposed Standard. This document is the product of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Allison Mankin and Scott Bradner. Technical Summary This document specifies a metric for variation in delay of packets aross Internet paths. The metric is based on the difference in the One-Way-Delay of selected packets. This difference in delay is called "IP Packet Delay variation" or IPDV. The metric is based on the delay per se metric defined in RFC 2679. The metric is valid for measurements between two hosts both in the case that they have synchronized clocks and in the case that they are not synchronized. The IPDV metric can be used for sizing of play-out buffres for applications requiring the regular delivery of packets (for example, voice or video play-out). What is normally important in this case is the maximum delay variation, which is used to size play- out buffers for such applications]. Other uses of a delay variation metric are, for example, to determine the dynamics of queues within a network (or router) where the changes in delay variation can be linked to changes in the queue length process at a given link or a combination of links. In addition, this type of metric is particularly robust with respect to differences and variations of the clocks of the two hosts. This allows the use of the metric even if the two hosts that support the measurement points are not synchronized. In the latter case indications of reciprocal skew of the clocks can be derived from the measurement and corrections are possible. The related precision is often comparable with the one that can be achieved with synchronized clocks, being of the same order of magnitude of synchronization errors. Working Group Summary There was good consensus on this document, and careful review to achieve a correct specification. Protocol Quality The document was reviewwed for the IESG by Allison Mankin. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-admin@advanced.org Fri Aug 30 08:39:23 2002 Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (root@mailhost.advanced.org [209.211.239.227]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14237 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.advanced.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7UCc4iU005128; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:38:04 -0400 Received: from emerson.torrentnet.com (emerson.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.110]) by mailhost.advanced.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id g7UCbgiU004631 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:37:43 -0400 Received: from imperial.torrentnet.com (imperial.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.109]) by emerson.torrentnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7UCbdi10184; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from malibu.torrentnet.com (malibu.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.100]) by imperial.torrentnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7UCbda78660; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from malibu.torrentnet.com (chimento@localhost) by malibu.torrentnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7UCbcp17703; Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200208301237.g7UCbcp17703@malibu.torrentnet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Emmanuel Tychon cc: ippm@advanced.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Jitter aggregation In-Reply-To: Message from Emmanuel Tychon of "28 Aug 2002 18:46:55 +0200." <1030553215.21690.65.camel@banana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Philip Chimento Sender: ippm-admin@advanced.org Errors-To: ippm-admin@advanced.org X-BeenThere: ippm@advanced.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:37:38 -0400 Hello Emmanuel: > > Philip, > > Thank you for your answer, and please see comments in-line: > > > It depends. If you are measuring IP packet delay variation (IPDV ~ "jitter") > > and computing estimated means, then the estimates always add (in the limit), > > even if the random variables (i.e. the "jitter" at each stage) are dependent > > in complicated ways. > > So what you say is that, if I measure IP packet delay variation, the > estimated means can be blindly added? What changes is the distribution. > Yes. There is a theorem about the linearity of expectations. Estimates of the mean approach the real mean only in the limit of course. The quality of the result will depend on the quality of your estimates. > > However, the distributions, because the "jitter" at successive stages is not > > independent, can't even be convolved in a simple way. Worse yet, if you are > > interested in a particular flow, it may "see" "jitter" that is much worse (or > > much better) than the average, depending on how the packet timing is distorted > > at the previous stage(s) and the nature of the delays at a given node. > > This is what scares me. The main purpose of this measurement is to > assure that 95% of the packets are under a certain jitter - one of the > important parameter for a good voice-over-ip communication. So what we > need is the 95th percentile, and unless I do measure it end-to-end, > there is no way I can calculate it: it can only be measured. > I haven't read the Van der Waal, Mandjes and Bastiaansen paper that Mudhafar referred to. However, I am not sure that the heavy load case is the only one that you need to worry about (the example that I gave you wasn't a heavy traffic case, only cyclical congestion). It is difficult to calculate, it is not that there is no way. I don't know about the composition of percentiles in the case that the random variables are dependent. This requires some research to see whether there has been any work done on this. I expect that it is the same problem as distributions, but I don't know. It may be that the most expedient approach is as was suggested by Jambi, which is to measure end-to-end. Both Advanced Networks and Services and RIPE in Europe have "active measurement" devices which can measure the one-way delay (and hence also the one-way-delay-variation) by sampling. You can check out the RFCs and I-Ds on these measurements by going to the IPPM WG page at the IETF, and the details of the devices by looking at the Advanced or RIPE web sites. > In a typical network that classifies traffic, the jitter introduces at > each hop is pretty random and depends vastly on the traffic sent in > other classes as well as the queuing mechanism and other minor factors. > Right. This is a difficult problem. > With all of this in mind, would you agree to say that calculations based > on IP inter-packet delay variation are risky operations that should be > avoided? > I wouldn't say this as a blanket statement. There are some calculations that are perfectly straightforward (as expectations are) and others that are very difficult and would probably require empirical distribution estimates at each hop and numerical integration (and lots of compute time). It just may be easier in this case to measure end-to-end. Good luck. Regards, Phil Chimento _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@advanced.org http://mailhost.advanced.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm