From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 1 03:41:37 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA03004 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 03:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CvtZn-0007uF-2X; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:39:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CvtYu-0007lz-7w for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:39:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA02892 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 03:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from rose.man.poznan.pl ([150.254.173.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cvtqz-0002Eg-VA for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:57:47 -0500 Received: from [150.254.160.189] ([150.254.160.189]) (authenticated bits=0) by rose.man.poznan.pl (8.12.10/8.12.10/auth/ldap/milter/tls) with ESMTP id j118aAOd021442; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:36:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41FF3F7A.4040106@man.poznan.pl> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:36:10 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3_Przybylski?= Organization: PSNC User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: pl, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mallman@icir.org Subject: Re: [ippm] thoughts on reordering draft (-08) References: <20050131160810.33F1277AB67@guns.icir.org> In-Reply-To: <20050131160810.33F1277AB67@guns.icir.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by PSNC antivirus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark, > I disagree with that phrasing (but, maybe not the intent). If my > application only sends one packet every 10 seconds then there is no way > that a stress test can predict the "possible" reordering my application > will observe. I would buy that sending at line rate may provide an > upper bound on the amount of reordering that *some* application could > conceivably observe. And, that might be useful. But, I think trying to > tie such a notion to any "particular application" is very thorny and > quite tenuous. I agree with you. Definitely you will not observe reordering at 0,1pps ;-) We have some experience with guys like CERN (ATLAS) and VLBI, they really send large data streams - we've got to conclusions (after some practical experiments) that it's good to know for example, what is the reordering of "line speed" streams, what is the "maximum non reordered single stream flow speed", etc.... They were just trying to develop the application, so that kind of information was really useful at the application development stage (decide how many simultaneous flows, flow speed, packet sizes etc). Anyway, we can easily get to the conclusion that *line speed* testing is just an example of *line speed* application. So we shall specify that *line speed testing* is intended for obtaining network characteristics for particular user only (user line speed may differ from network line speed), while *testing using application trace* is the way to assess the probable reordering for the particular application. All the best, Michal > > allman > > > -- > Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ > > > -- ______________________________________________________________________ Michal Przybylski Network Research and Development michalp@man.poznan.pl Poznan Supercomputing and Networking Center +48 61 858 20 27 http://www.man.poznan.pl ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 1 13:32:02 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03875 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cw2gM-0006OL-KZ; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:23:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cw2Zb-0005EH-1J; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:16:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02439; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.15]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cw2rm-0000yn-77; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:35:11 -0500 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by parsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:15:34 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:15:33 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality Thread-Index: AcUHbkXTE9xaFBjKSU+gHAkR9RgTtAANQucw From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Henk Uijterwaal" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2005 18:15:34.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[05F24640:01C5088A] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: pce@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Henk, >From my point of view these 3 drafts may merge and in a WG draft that = defines the minimal set of metrics to permit spatial and multicast = measurements. These metrics are the ones needed in the PCE WG to measure path quality = and the ones needed to measure multicast tree performance: - The decomposition of 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet loss = and jitter over a path:=20 Samples of instantaneous per hop performance; - The delay, loss and jitter of a hop of a path; An item of the previous decomposition;=20 - The aggregation of end-to-end one-way delays over a path is needed = too: Permits aggregation of inter domain delay and aggregation of delay of a = branch of a multicast tree. - The samples of 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet loss and = jitter for a group of receiver:=20 Permit multiparty statistics; Regards Emile -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]=20 Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 31 janvier 2005 08:26 =C0=A0: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN; ippm@ietf.org Cc=A0: Matthew J Zekauskas Objet=A0: Re: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast an spatial measure Dear Emile, >During the last WG meeting Matt asked me to reread the draft=20 >draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt while considering the previous IDs I = >posted on spatial and multicast metrics. > >I reread them. Following is the list of metrics I found. I can make=20 >further classifications, comparisons or comments if needed. Based on your reading of this draft, do you have any opinion on how we should proceed with draft-liang-multiparty... Pick it up as a WG item? Leave it to the authors to pursue as an individual submission? Kind regards, Henk >Regards > >Emile >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-00.txt = ---------------- > >The draft defines 1 network metrics: > > + Type-P-spatial-hop-one-way-delay > > > >The draft defines several aggregation metrics: > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay-stream > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Hop-One-way-Delay > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Percentile > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Median > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Inverse = Percentile > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Stream > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Percentile > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Median > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Inverse = Percentile > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Connectivity > > > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt = --------------- > > > >The draft defines 2 network metrics: > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss > > > >The draft defines several path aggregation metrics : > > + Type-P-one-way-delay-trajectory > > + Type-P-aggregated-one-way-delay > > + Type-P-asynchronous-one-way-delay-trajectory > > + Type-P-asynchronous-aggregated-one-way-delay > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-stream > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-Average > > > >--------------- draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt --------------- > >The draft defines statistics for end to end multicast performance, = mainly=20 >to identify the variation of the performance between the member of a = group. > >Actually the draft has 4 groups of statistics metrics: > > One-to-group-Mean-Paramater > > One-to-group-Variation-Paramater > > Group-to-one-Mean-Paramater > > Group-to-one-Variation-Paramater > >The value of Parameter depends on what one-way metric is used from = delay,=20 >loss ot jitter. > >To permit comparison I extended the list of metrics defined using IPPM=20 >metrics terminology: > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-one-way-delay; > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-ipdv; > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-one-way-delay; > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-ipdv; > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-one-way-delay; > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-ipdv; > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-one-way-delay; > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-ipdv; -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Henk Uijterwaal Email: = henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre = http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom = Verlaine)=20 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From axbixky@o2.pl Wed Feb 2 13:57:54 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13984; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [210.113.125.148] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CwPzl-0001UM-NS; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:16:59 -0500 Received: from symphony-15.iinet.net.au ([170.92.31.120]:1906 "HELO mail.ies.edu") by ies.edu with SMTP id ; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:51:50 -0300 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:51:50 -0700 Message-Id: <3.2.72.2081924.0083fc70@ies.edu> From: "Gregg Goff" To: Subject: Incredible and true. 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:41:08 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality Thread-Index: AcUJJKwt/KaPWEeNQQuBKdAETsUUbgACVREA From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Lei Liang" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2005 16:41:09.0608 (UTC) FILETIME=[FFA14680:01C50945] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a1f9797ba297220533cb8c3f4bc709a8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:12:27 -0500 Cc: Zhili SunZhiliSun , pce@ietf.org, Henk Uijterwaal , ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Lei, You might take a glance at the old draft defining multicast metrics too. = As an example the section 7 defines the metric = Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Stream. This stream is the = list of the instantaneous delays between one source and a group of = receiver. So from my point of view it provides directly the material for = computing One-to-group statistics. These drafts are no more available on the IETF site, but they are still = online = http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-0= 0.txt = http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.= txt Regards Emile -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: Lei Liang [mailto:L.Liang@surrey.ac.uk]=20 Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 2 f=E9vrier 2005 13:42 =C0=A0: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN Cc=A0: Henk Uijterwaal; pce@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; Zhili SunZhiliSun Objet=A0: Re: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / = PCE metric to measure path quality Dear Emile and Henk, Thank you very much for your comments on the draft. I will read through draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt to help merge these two drafts together according to the comments cheers, lei Tue, 2005-02-01 at 18:15, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote: > Dear Henk, >=20 > >From my point of view these 3 drafts may merge and in a WG draft that = defines the minimal set of metrics to permit spatial and multicast = measurements. >=20 > These metrics are the ones needed in the PCE WG to measure path = quality and the ones needed to measure multicast tree performance: >=20 > - The decomposition of 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet loss = and jitter over a path:=20 > Samples of instantaneous per hop performance; >=20 > - The delay, loss and jitter of a hop of a path; > An item of the previous decomposition;=20 >=20 > - The aggregation of end-to-end one-way delays over a path is needed = too: > Permits aggregation of inter domain delay and aggregation of delay of = a branch of a multicast tree. >=20 > - The samples ofcomment 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet = loss and jitter for a group of receiver:=20 > Permit multiparty statistics; >=20 >=20 > Regards > Emile >=20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]=20 > Envoy=E9 : lundi 31 janvier 2005 08:26 > =C0 : STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN; ippm@ietf.org > Cc : Matthew J Zekauskas > Objet : Re: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast an spatial measure >=20 > Dear Emile, >=20 > >During the last WG meeting Matt asked me to reread the draft=20 > >draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt while considering the previous IDs = I=20 > >posted on spatial and multicast metrics. > > > >I reread them. Following is the list of metrics I found. I can make=20 > >further classifications, comparisons or comments if needed. >=20 > Based on your reading of this draft, do you have any opinion on how > we should proceed with draft-liang-multiparty... Pick it up as a WG > item? Leave it to the authors to pursue as an individual submission? >=20 > Kind regards, >=20 > Henk >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >Regards > > > >Emile >=20 >=20 >=20 > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-00.txt = ---------------- > > > >The draft defines 1 network metrics: > > > > + Type-P-spatial-hop-one-way-delay > > > > > > > >The draft defines several aggregation metrics: > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay-stream > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Hop-One-way-Delay > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Percentile > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Median > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Inverse = Percentile > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Stream > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Percentile > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Median > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Inverse = Percentile > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Connectivity > > > > > > > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt = --------------- > > > > > > > >The draft defines 2 network metrics: > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss > > > > > > > >The draft defines several path aggregation metrics : > > > > + Type-P-one-way-delay-trajectory > > > > + Type-P-aggregated-one-way-delay > > > > + Type-P-asynchronous-one-way-delay-trajectory > > > > + Type-P-asynchronous-aggregated-one-way-delay > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-stream > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-Average > > > > > > > >--------------- draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt --------------- > > > >The draft defines statistics for end to end multicast performance, = mainly=20 > >to identify the variation of the performance between the member of a = group. > > > >Actually the draft has 4 groups of statistics metrics: > > > > One-to-group-Mean-Paramater > > > > One-to-group-Variation-Paramater > > > > Group-to-one-Mean-Paramater > > > > Group-to-one-Variation-Paramater > > > >The value of Parameter depends on what one-way metric is used from = delay,=20 > >loss ot jitter. > > > >To permit comparison I extended the list of metrics defined using = IPPM=20 > >metrics terminology: > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-one-way-delay; > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-ipdv; > > > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-one-way-delay; > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-ipdv; > > > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-one-way-delay; > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-ipdv; > > > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-one-way-delay; > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-ipdv; >=20 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: = henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre = http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >=20 > Look here junior, don't you be so happy. > And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom = Verlaine)=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org=20 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 3 03:17:57 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28131 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 03:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cwc7R-0006Mf-Qu; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:13:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cwc5Z-0005xj-AW for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:11:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27547 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 03:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.0.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CwcO4-0005GL-0T for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:30:54 -0500 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id 13EC723FF1; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:10:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A073252DF for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:10:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from Geir.ripe.net (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j138ASev017204 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:10:31 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203075103.02c23a90@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:52:05 +0100 To: ippm@ietf.org From: Henk Uijterwaal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000006 / -5.9 X-RIPE-Signature: 6cf95aabba04defe8df5801bbb94b5b8 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Subject: [ippm] Meeting @ IETF62 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Dear All, The IPPM WG will meet during the next IETF. Please send us your agenda topics. Henk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlaine) _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From owvwn@o2.pl Thu Feb 3 10:15:06 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01205; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [222.102.133.122] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cwizq-0000kB-IP; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:34:21 -0500 Received: from symphony-97.iinet.net.au ([58.91.36.36]:1906 "HELO mail.ies.edu") by ies.edu with SMTP id ; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 17:10:00 +0200 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:10:00 -0700 Message-Id: <7.2.14.2081924.0083fc70@ies.edu> From: "Dominique Cotton" To: Subject: Welcome to the "real world" X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: LKQLMTEA List-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----------A48356845382213" X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0634ec58aad05a6aa9ac7d4670be9c6c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------A48356845382213 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A85031401794097" ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset = "us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit meme only . septacro resorcinol cattail. sanctify throttle scuffle dentistry glenn simplicity cumberland egipt. ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit his to
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N0-removalll are requiired maHsbGmaN1rGPcacSLBjiujdYi From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 3 16:27:47 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14416 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CwoCw-0001Ia-LR; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:08:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cwjzr-0001fv-I6; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 11:38:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13046; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailg.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CwkIR-00047m-Op; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 11:57:36 -0500 Received: from ads33.surrey.ac.uk by mailg.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) with ESMTP; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:29:49 +0000 Received: from EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.136]) by ads33.surrey.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:29:47 +0000 Received: from 131.227.89.181 ([131.227.89.181]) by EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.152]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:29:46 +0000 Received: from ccsrlt31 by evs-ec1-node1.surrey.ac.uk; 03 Feb 2005 16:29:46 +0000 Subject: RE: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality From: Lei Liang To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1107448186.14307.75.camel@ccsrlt31.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:29:46 +0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2005 16:29:47.0666 (UTC) FILETIME=[9392EF20:01C50A0D] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7f3fa64b9851a63d7f3174ef64114da7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:08:09 -0500 Cc: Zhili SunZhiliSun , pce , Henk Uijterwaal , ippm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Emile, Thanks for your sugguestion. I have read through the mulitcast metrics and got some comments here.=20 1:the general difference of your draft and mine is our view point. your draft mainly consided the individual users in the group while mine emphasized the group. I am trying to view the group as one client with special consideration on the relative QoS. =20 2: your spatial metrics can be for more general measurement cases rather than only limited to multicast. It can provide very detail information for each multicast branch that is extremely useful to identify the problem network segment for inter-domain connctions. 3:regarding your Instantaneous One-way Delay Stream, it is trying to collect a set of unicast measurement results together if I didn't misunderstand. I have one question here that if we extremely need such a collection to form a new metric while we actually can have the unicast one-way metric first. The potential problem might be the metric size while we have huge size multicast groups, e.g. internet gaming, live tv, etc.=20 4: regarding the Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Hop-One-way-Delay, it is quite similar to the one-to-group mean delay defined in my draft. I suggest we can merge them together. 5:the mean, or average, of the one-way delay can't present the relative delay which is also very important for group communication as I mentioned in my draft. so I suggest to keep the consideration on the delay variation. 6: moreover, the jitter is also very important for the highly interactive communications and we can not ignore it. 7: the relevant metrics you defined for packet loss is more concern with individual users, as i said above, and can be very useful for problem identification. the problem is still regarding the huge group size.=20 8: I suggest we use mean instead of median because it can reflect the trend of the QoS among the group members. Those are the comments for now. Your response will be appreciated. Regards, lei =20 On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 16:41, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote: > Dear Lei, >=20 > You might take a glance at the old draft defining multicast metrics too. = As an example the section 7 defines the metric Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneo= us-One-way-Delay-Stream. This stream is the list of the instantaneous delay= s between one source and a group of receiver. So from my point of view it p= rovides directly the material for computing One-to-group statistics. >=20 > These drafts are no more available on the IETF site, but they are still o= nline > http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-= 00.txt > http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01= .txt >=20 > Regards > Emile >=20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Lei Liang [mailto:L.Liang@surrey.ac.uk]=20 > Envoy=E9 : mercredi 2 f=E9vrier 2005 13:42 > =C0 : STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN > Cc : Henk Uijterwaal; pce@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; Zhili SunZhiliSun > Objet : Re: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE = metric to measure path quality >=20 > Dear Emile and Henk, > Thank you very much for your comments on the draft. I will read > through draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt to help merge these > two drafts together according to the comments >=20 > cheers, > lei >=20 > Tue, 2005-02-01 at 18:15, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote: > > Dear Henk, > >=20 > > >From my point of view these 3 drafts may merge and in a WG draft that = defines the minimal set of metrics to permit spatial and multicast measurem= ents. > >=20 > > These metrics are the ones needed in the PCE WG to measure path quality= and the ones needed to measure multicast tree performance: > >=20 > > - The decomposition of 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet loss = and jitter over a path:=20 > > Samples of instantaneous per hop performance; > >=20 > > - The delay, loss and jitter of a hop of a path; > > An item of the previous decomposition;=20 > >=20 > > - The aggregation of end-to-end one-way delays over a path is needed to= o: > > Permits aggregation of inter domain delay and aggregation of delay of = a branch of a multicast tree. > >=20 > > - The samples ofcomment 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet loss= and jitter for a group of receiver:=20 > > Permit multiparty statistics; > >=20 > >=20 > > Regards > > Emile > >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]=20 > > Envoy=E9 : lundi 31 janvier 2005 08:26 > > =C0 : STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN; ippm@ietf.org > > Cc : Matthew J Zekauskas > > Objet : Re: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast an spatial measure > >=20 > > Dear Emile, > >=20 > > >During the last WG meeting Matt asked me to reread the draft=20 > > >draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt while considering the previous IDs = I=20 > > >posted on spatial and multicast metrics. > > > > > >I reread them. Following is the list of metrics I found. I can make=20 > > >further classifications, comparisons or comments if needed. > >=20 > > Based on your reading of this draft, do you have any opinion on how > > we should proceed with draft-liang-multiparty... Pick it up as a WG > > item? Leave it to the authors to pursue as an individual submission? > >=20 > > Kind regards, > >=20 > > Henk > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > >Regards > > > > > >Emile > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-00.txt ----------= ------ > > > > > >The draft defines 1 network metrics: > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-hop-one-way-delay > > > > > > > > > > > >The draft defines several aggregation metrics: > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay-stream > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Hop-One-way-Delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Percentile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Median > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Inverse Percen= tile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Stream > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Percentile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Median > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Inverse Percenti= le > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Connectivity > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt ------------= --- > > > > > > > > > > > >The draft defines 2 network metrics: > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss > > > > > > > > > > > >The draft defines several path aggregation metrics : > > > > > > + Type-P-one-way-delay-trajectory > > > > > > + Type-P-aggregated-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-asynchronous-one-way-delay-trajectory > > > > > > + Type-P-asynchronous-aggregated-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-stream > > > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-Average > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------- draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt --------------- > > > > > >The draft defines statistics for end to end multicast performance, mai= nly=20 > > >to identify the variation of the performance between the member of a g= roup. > > > > > >Actually the draft has 4 groups of statistics metrics: > > > > > > One-to-group-Mean-Paramater > > > > > > One-to-group-Variation-Paramater > > > > > > Group-to-one-Mean-Paramater > > > > > > Group-to-one-Variation-Paramater > > > > > >The value of Parameter depends on what one-way metric is used from del= ay,=20 > > >loss ot jitter. > > > > > >To permit comparison I extended the list of metrics defined using IPPM= =20 > > >metrics terminology: > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-ipdv; > > > > > > > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-ipdv; > > > > > > > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-ipdv; > > > > > > > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-ipdv; > >=20 > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)rip= e.net > > RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~= henk > > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > >=20 > > Look here junior, don't you be so happy. > > And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlai= ne)=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org=20 > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 3 16:28:13 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14482 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CwoD6-0001Qd-8G; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:08:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CwlGu-0006Dp-VX; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:00:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20817; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.15]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CwlZW-0006wU-7G; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:19:19 -0500 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:59:58 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:59:57 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality Thread-Index: AcUKEDQhdmKnX4/YReSrrc9VeYm40QAATNpw From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Lei Liang" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2005 17:59:58.0465 (UTC) FILETIME=[2CA95710:01C50A1A] X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a630332fa112280ecc4c4186b5c9ea83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:08:18 -0500 Cc: Zhili SunZhiliSun , pce , Henk Uijterwaal , ippm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Lei, The following comments focus on one idea: preparing a draft acceptable = from the IPPM framework point of view, which defines the minimal set of = metrics we need.=20 Regarding point 1: I consider that one-to-group metrics are easy to define on the top of = the metrics already defined by the IPPM WG. On the opposite group-to-one metrics are not easy to define while being = respectful of the IPPM framework mainly because a group-to-one metric = doesn't rely on one event but on a set of different packets, sent at = different time, arriving at different time...=20 I have the same issue with the aggregation of end-to-end one-way delays = over a path: the IPPM framework does not apply because it relies on = measures made at different times. So, in a way to merge ours drafts in a single IPPM one I propose to = ignore both the group-to-one metrics definitions and the definitions of = metrics for aggregation of end-to-end one-way delays and loss (and = obviously jitter!); =09 Regarding point 2: I agree, spatial metrics are applicable to multicast, to TE, to = interdomain...but this doesn't look to be a hot topic at IETF :-) Regarding points 3 and 7: The definitions of One-to-group streams of delay or of loss are needed = only to write unambiguous definitions of statistics. The way the = measures of singletons of end-to-end metrics are collected is out of the = scope of the definition. Regarding points 4 and 8:=20 Several metrics can merge. We can use the name group-to-one... Regarding points 5 and 6: I agree. Jitter is needed. What about the next step. I propose that we write quickly an I-D = considering the comments above in a way to present it during the next = meeting in Minneapolis. I am quite that Henk will give us at least 5 = minutes to present it. I can send you a first template in xml if you agree. Regards Emile =20 qclearly define statistic metrics on it stream -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: Lei Liang [mailto:L.Liang@surrey.ac.uk]=20 Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 3 f=E9vrier 2005 17:30 =C0=A0: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN Cc=A0: Henk Uijterwaal; pce; ippm; Zhili SunZhiliSun Objet=A0: RE: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / = PCE metric to measure path quality Dear Emile, Thanks for your sugguestion. I have read through the mulitcast metrics and got some comments here.=20 1:the general difference of your draft and mine is our view point. your draft mainly consided the individual users in the group while mine emphasized the group. I am trying to view the group as one client with special consideration on the relative QoS. =20 2: your spatial metrics can be for more general measurement cases rather than only limited to multicast. It can provide very detail information for each multicast branch that is extremely useful to identify the problem network segment for inter-domain connctions. 3:regarding your Instantaneous One-way Delay Stream, it is trying to collect a set of unicast measurement results together if I didn't misunderstand. I have one question here that if we extremely need such a collection to form a new metric while we actually can have the unicast one-way metric first. The potential problem might be the metric size while we have huge size multicast groups, e.g. internet gaming, live tv, etc.=20 4: regarding the Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Hop-One-way-Delay, it is quite similar to the one-to-group mean delay defined in my draft. I suggest we can merge them together. 5:the mean, or average, of the one-way delay can't present the relative delay which is also very important for group communication as I mentioned in my draft. so I suggest to keep the consideration on the delay variation. 6: moreover, the jitter is also very important for the highly interactive communications and we can not ignore it. 7: the relevant metrics you defined for packet loss is more concern with individual users, as i said above, and can be very useful for problem identification. the problem is still regarding the huge group size.=20 8: I suggest we use mean instead of median because it can reflect the trend of the QoS among the group members. Those are the comments for now. Your response will be appreciated. Regards, lei =20 On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 16:41, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote: > Dear Lei, >=20 > You might take a glance at the old draft defining multicast metrics = too. As an example the section 7 defines the metric = Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Stream. This stream is the = list of the instantaneous delays between one source and a group of = receiver. So from my point of view it provides directly the material for = computing One-to-group statistics. >=20 > These drafts are no more available on the IETF site, but they are = still online > = http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-0= 0.txt > = http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.= txt >=20 > Regards > Emile >=20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Lei Liang [mailto:L.Liang@surrey.ac.uk]=20 > Envoy=E9 : mercredi 2 f=E9vrier 2005 13:42 > =C0 : STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN > Cc : Henk Uijterwaal; pce@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; Zhili SunZhiliSun > Objet : Re: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / = PCE metric to measure path quality >=20 > Dear Emile and Henk, > Thank you very much for your comments on the draft. I will read > through draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt to help merge these > two drafts together according to the comments >=20 > cheers, > lei >=20 > Tue, 2005-02-01 at 18:15, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote: > > Dear Henk, > >=20 > > >From my point of view these 3 drafts may merge and in a WG draft = that defines the minimal set of metrics to permit spatial and multicast = measurements. > >=20 > > These metrics are the ones needed in the PCE WG to measure path = quality and the ones needed to measure multicast tree performance: > >=20 > > - The decomposition of 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet = loss and jitter over a path:=20 > > Samples of instantaneous per hop performance; > >=20 > > - The delay, loss and jitter of a hop of a path; > > An item of the previous decomposition;=20 > >=20 > > - The aggregation of end-to-end one-way delays over a path is needed = too: > > Permits aggregation of inter domain delay and aggregation of delay = of a branch of a multicast tree. > >=20 > > - The samples ofcomment 'singletons' of IPPM one-way delay, packet = loss and jitter for a group of receiver:=20 > > Permit multiparty statistics; > >=20 > >=20 > > Regards > > Emile > >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]=20 > > Envoy=E9 : lundi 31 janvier 2005 08:26 > > =C0 : STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN; ippm@ietf.org > > Cc : Matthew J Zekauskas > > Objet : Re: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast an spatial measure > >=20 > > Dear Emile, > >=20 > > >During the last WG meeting Matt asked me to reread the draft=20 > > >draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt while considering the previous = IDs I=20 > > >posted on spatial and multicast metrics. > > > > > >I reread them. Following is the list of metrics I found. I can make = > > >further classifications, comparisons or comments if needed. > >=20 > > Based on your reading of this draft, do you have any opinion on how > > we should proceed with draft-liang-multiparty... Pick it up as a WG > > item? Leave it to the authors to pursue as an individual = submission? > >=20 > > Kind regards, > >=20 > > Henk > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > >Regards > > > > > >Emile > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-multicast-metrics-00.txt = ---------------- > > > > > >The draft defines 1 network metrics: > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-hop-one-way-delay > > > > > > > > > > > >The draft defines several aggregation metrics: > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay-stream > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Hop-One-way-Delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Percentile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Median > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-One-way-Delay-Inverse = Percentile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Stream > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Percentile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Median > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Packet-Loss-Inverse = Percentile > > > > > > + Type-P-Multicast-Instantaneous-Connectivity > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------- draft-stephan-ippm-spatial-metrics-01.txt = --------------- > > > > > > > > > > > >The draft defines 2 network metrics: > > > > > > + Type-P-spatial-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss > > > > > > > > > > > >The draft defines several path aggregation metrics : > > > > > > + Type-P-one-way-delay-trajectory > > > > > > + Type-P-aggregated-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-asynchronous-one-way-delay-trajectory > > > > > > + Type-P-asynchronous-aggregated-one-way-delay > > > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-stream > > > > > > + Type-P-Spatial-packet-loss-Average > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------- draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt --------------- > > > > > >The draft defines statistics for end to end multicast performance, = mainly=20 > > >to identify the variation of the performance between the member of = a group. > > > > > >Actually the draft has 4 groups of statistics metrics: > > > > > > One-to-group-Mean-Paramater > > > > > > One-to-group-Variation-Paramater > > > > > > Group-to-one-Mean-Paramater > > > > > > Group-to-one-Variation-Paramater > > > > > >The value of Parameter depends on what one-way metric is used from = delay,=20 > > >loss ot jitter. > > > > > >To permit comparison I extended the list of metrics defined using = IPPM=20 > > >metrics terminology: > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Mean-ipdv; > > > > > > > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-One-to-group-Variation-ipdv; > > > > > > > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Mean-ipdv; > > > > > > > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-one-way-delay; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-Packet-Loss; > > > > > > + Type-P-Group-to-one-Variation-ipdv; > >=20 > > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > Henk Uijterwaal Email: = henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > > RIPE Network Coordination Centre = http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > >=20 > > Look here junior, don't you be so happy. > > And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom = Verlaine)=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org=20 > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 4 04:59:35 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08064 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 04:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cx06n-0006vQ-Dr; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 04:50:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cx03Y-0005BF-7x for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 04:47:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07040 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 04:47:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.0.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cx0MI-0003QE-IO for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:06:38 -0500 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id 7F38B24426; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:46:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA4724439; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:46:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from Geir.ripe.net (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j149kdeu026369; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:46:40 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050204104515.02c62dd0@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:46:38 +0100 To: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" , "Lei Liang" , ippm@ietf.org From: Henk Uijterwaal Subject: RE: [ippm] RE: 'IPPM' IDs on multicast and spatial measure / PCE metric to measure path quality In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000000 / -4.7 X-RIPE-Signature: 5f1a3fe084fd2a123d94e9fb02ff35f9 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi, >What about the next step. I propose that we write quickly an I-D >considering the comments above in a way to present it during the next >meeting in Minneapolis. I am quite that Henk will give us at least 5 >minutes to present it. I agree and you have a slot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlaine) _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 4 11:55:59 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14093 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cx6g4-0005Fb-KP; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:51:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cx6fo-00057F-HO for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:51:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13849 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cx6yb-0006Iy-69 for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:10:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088D41CD9DE; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04617-10; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC491CD6FF; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:51:06 -0500 (EST) To: Roland Karch References: <200502010839.j118dsBr003497@tyholt.uninett.no> <41FFBC5A.8010609@internet2.edu> <41FFC80A.6050207@internet2.edu> <4200B645.8000903@dante.org.uk> <420122BF.90202@internet2.edu> <4201E49C.3060501@dante.org.uk> <42024F4D.8050209@internet2.edu> <1107452487.16868.44.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <42027096.1010100@internet2.edu> <1107533084.19001.85.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 04 Feb 2005 11:51:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1107533084.19001.85.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: <864qgsgtfm.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 83 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: ippm@ietf.org, WiN Labor , owamp-users@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Roland, Your message seems to be mostly about the OWAMP protocol itself rather than the particular implementation. I have added ippm@ietf.org (IETF IP Performance Metrics working group), the IETF WG responsible for the protocol, draft-ietf-ippm-owdp-17.txt (now in ``publication requested'' state) to the CC list. Roland Karch writes: > We have slightly more detailed information about the timesource > involved in the tests. Besides the estimated error and the > timesource (stratum 1?) we also stored the type of the sender's > timestamps (us vs. ns) and some integrity checks (e.g. packet size). The protocol needs to be applicable to a wide range of scenarios. Some system-dependent information about the time source, would, therefore, be lost in any case. (Can't include everything for every possible system.) I believe that what the protocol has now strikes a reasonable balance: most implementations should be able to come up with the information, and it describes most of the important stuff about the time source. Note that NTP is not the only possible time source for OWAMP implementations. > On second thought, I think it's possible that we just dispose of the > additional data and make do with just the clock info the protocol > provides. I have one problem with your choice of format for the > timestaps though: We'll run into problems in about 30 years from > now. But that's maybe something that the NTP folks should fix. ;-) The NTP folks seem to have already done so, or so David Mills says. The arithmetic with timestamps 30 years from now would need to be a little funny (add epoch duration if negative), but this is the same Z/nZ arithmetic that's used in, say, TCP sequence numbers wraparound. Since the epoch is large enough, there's no need to worry about doing the right modulo just yet, but that can always be done. > Excellent, that's (almost) how I would describe a part of our packet > grouping problem. One thing I'd avoid is to have 0 waiting time between > test packets. I've seen some interesting effects, just because the > sender actually queued packets faster than it could send them out on our > system. In the protocol specification, this is left up to the user. The user can specify zero time between packets (e.g., for packet train measurements). If that works poorly, the user is free to specify some other time. > That's an interesting way to solve these problems. As I mentioned once, > we try to avoid collisions of packets completely by either negotiating > or centrally assigning a global schedule for the measurement slots. I > can see a way to use OWAMP-control for the latter, centralized case. How > to efficiently negotiate a test without that entity still poses a > problem for me. Periodic streams have long been known (since RIP times) to tend to synchronize over time. The OWAMP specification lets you send both Poisson and periodic streams (and arbitrary other ones), but this should be taken into consideration. > Do you think it would be possible within the protocol to _efficiently_ > negotiate a common starting time when both ends have sets of timeslices > available, but which may differ in most cases? In my opinion a simple > ACK/NACK type of negotiation could introduce a lot of round-trips for > that scenario. The Internet is global. Having a central authority negotiate sending times for every test packet doesn't seem feasible. > I think we'll handle our case of permanent measurements as a special > case of this. Maybe by specifying a special value of 2^32-1 as the > number of packets? The implementation should then be able to take care > of it like I want to see it. You could also do a sequence of measurement sessions, with the time between measurement sessions distributed identically to the time between packets within a test session. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Sex is the mathematics urge sublimated. -- M. C. Reed. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 4 15:41:59 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02567 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CxAFN-0004k5-3v; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:40:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cx83J-0000yy-9c for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:19:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21154 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.nefonline.de ([212.114.153.196]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cx8M7-0008QO-Rq for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:39:00 -0500 Received: from mail (gms1.nefonline.de [212.114.153.188]) by mailrelay1.nefonline.de (NEFkom Mailservice) with ESMTP id j14IJP223677 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:19:25 +0100 Received: from [212.114.213.68] by mail.nefonline.de (GMS 10.00.3213/NY4279.00.ab72d4bc) with SMTP id tqneihaa for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:19:21 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050204182453.03e03eb0@imap.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 19:19:22 +0100 To: stanislav shalunov From: Roland Karch In-Reply-To: <864qgsgtfm.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> References: <200502010839.j118dsBr003497@tyholt.uninett.no> <41FFBC5A.8010609@internet2.edu> <41FFC80A.6050207@internet2.edu> <4200B645.8000903@dante.org.uk> <420122BF.90202@internet2.edu> <4201E49C.3060501@dante.org.uk> <42024F4D.8050209@internet2.edu> <1107452487.16868.44.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <42027096.1010100@internet2.edu> <1107533084.19001.85.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <864qgsgtfm.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:40:08 -0500 Cc: ippm@ietf.org, WiN Labor , owamp-users@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1183080199==" Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --===============1183080199== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="=-=-=-=142862618228214=-=-=-=" --=-=-=-=142862618228214=-=-=-= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello Stanislav, At 17:51 04.02.2005, stanislav shalunov wrote: >Your message seems to be mostly about the OWAMP protocol itself rather >than the particular implementation. Actually, the mail exchange was about how to integrate the OWAMP protocol into our DFN IPPM implementation. But yes, we can consider it a talk about the protocol itself already. >Roland Karch writes: > > > We have slightly more detailed information about the timesource > > involved in the tests. Besides the estimated error and the > > timesource (stratum 1?) we also stored the type of the sender's > > timestamps (us vs. ns) and some integrity checks (e.g. packet size). > >The protocol needs to be applicable to a wide range of scenarios. >Some system-dependent information about the time source, would, >therefore, be lost in any case. (Can't include everything for every >possible system.) I believe that what the protocol has now strikes a >reasonable balance: most implementations should be able to come up >with the information, and it describes most of the important stuff >about the time source. Note that NTP is not the only possible time >source for OWAMP implementations. You won't read any disagreement from me on that matter. While one could of course try to develop a completely flexible test protocol, this would most likely add too much overhead to the packets. And those should be as small as possible... We've even been playing with the thought of only sending a sequence number within each test packet. Theoretically, this bit of information is enough to retrieve a complete set of measurement data from both ends. > > Do you think it would be possible within the protocol to _efficiently_ > > negotiate a common starting time when both ends have sets of timeslices > > available, but which may differ in most cases? In my opinion a simple > > ACK/NACK type of negotiation could introduce a lot of round-trips for > > that scenario. > >The Internet is global. Having a central authority negotiate sending >times for every test packet doesn't seem feasible. It of course wouldn't be a central authority for the whole Internet, that would indeed be a very ambitious project. However, we do have coordinating entities for measurement domains which are used for network surveillance. And of course you can set the policies of an OWAMP node in such a way that measurement requests will only be granted when coming from that coordinating entity. The interesting question is wether there is (or could be) a protocol hook that allows two measurement points to negotiate a common schedule with the same (or at least reasonable) efficiency as a coording entity would allow. > > I think we'll handle our case of permanent measurements as a special > > case of this. Maybe by specifying a special value of 2^32-1 as the > > number of packets? The implementation should then be able to take care > > of it like I want to see it. > >You could also do a sequence of measurement sessions, with the time >between measurement sessions distributed identically to the time >between packets within a test session. I have a few reasons for handling permanent measurements separately from conventional on-demand measurements. If those weren't there, I would gladly do them like you suggested. Should you would like to discuss this in detail, feel free to pick me up on that point again. I've already had a few interesting chats on this matter in the past. :-) Greetings, Roland --=-=-=-=142862618228214=-=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQBCA7yqGx+eFeW2O4ERAkjJAJ0a5l5OVSubeXG2Bs0xW+2hl/iKWwCfeXf9 yxY2MVBB5IawNCHeJCm3Pr4= =m54O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-=142862618228214=-=-=-=-- --===============1183080199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --===============1183080199==-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 4 17:17:44 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12728 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CxBcs-0007VD-26; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:08:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CxBOJ-0005bz-7R for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:53:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10410 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CxBh9-0005Ps-Uy for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:12:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B3F1CD60E; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02861-03; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666881CD95B; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4203EEC4.6060204@internet2.edu> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 14:53:08 -0700 From: "Jeff W. Boote" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roland Karch References: <200502010839.j118dsBr003497@tyholt.uninett.no> <41FFBC5A.8010609@internet2.edu> <41FFC80A.6050207@internet2.edu> <4200B645.8000903@dante.org.uk> <420122BF.90202@internet2.edu> <4201E49C.3060501@dante.org.uk> <42024F4D.8050209@internet2.edu> <1107452487.16868.44.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <42027096.1010100@internet2.edu> <1107533084.19001.85.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <1107533084.19001.85.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:08:28 -0500 Cc: Nicolas Simar , ippm@ietf.org, Eric Boyd , WiN Labor , owamp-users@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol implementation Was: [GN2-JRA1] [I2PAT-G2JRA1] Classification of RRD X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Stas and other IPPM list watchers - this thread started out as a discussion on what would be needed to get the DFN IPPM OWD implementation to interact with our owamp implementation for the purposes of joint measurement between our networks. Basically, how much of the OWAMP protocol would need to be implemented within IPPM for different levels of interoperability. But, this is not strictly all protocol related. Oh, and another confusion. DFN has an OWD application called IPPM - so there might be some confusion as to the meaning of the term IPPM.] Roland Karch wrote: >>So, for a more concrete example: If you want to send a set of 5 packets every 1 >>min using the OWAMP control protocol you would specify your send schedule as: >> >>slot index slot type slot arg >>0 1(periodic) 60 (1 min) >>1 1 0 >>2 1 0 >>3 1 0 >>4 1 0 > > > Excellent, that's (almost) how I would describe a part of our packet > grouping problem. One thing I'd avoid is to have 0 waiting time between > test packets. I've seen some interesting effects, just because the > sender actually queued packets faster than it could send them out on our > system. I believe your last sentence demonstrates a different measurement philosophy for your IPPM implementation than we have used in the Internet2 owamp implementation. Our owamp implementation was written with the expectation that it would run on a multi-user operating system in user space. This is not a requirement of the protocol, and another implementation could get much much better accuracy than we do (imagine using a NIC that understood OWAMP and had GPS built-in). The advantage of our implementation is that it should be possible to install, run and get "reasonable" results on a wide variety of hardware/OS combinations. Given this type of implementation, we will have "interesting effects" simply due to OS job scheduling. For these reasons, on the Abilene network we have relied more upon statistical views of the owamp data that discount outliers. It sounds like IPPM attempts to minimize the "interesting effects" while testing much more than we do. (I believe the OWAMP protocol will still work fine for you.) I bring up this difference only because I think it illustrates why you are so much more interested in coordinating your measurements than we have been. This might give you some insight into our philosophy for Abilene measurements: We typically look at the 95th percentile of latency relative to the median latency on a given path. So, we are counting on less than 5% of our packets experiencing those "interesting effects". If more than 5% of the packets in a given time period deviate significantly from the median, than we have usually found queuing. We usually look at 30 second samples and we typically send 10 packets per second per path of interest. So, we are usually looking at 300 packet timings. On Abilene that equates to a minimum of 22 sending streams and and 22 receiving streams on each one of the Abilene owamp hosts with additional streams for tests with peer networks and institutions. >>You could also specify slot type 0 for slot index 0 if you wanted to send those >>5 packets close to one per minute on a Poisson distribution so you can avoid >>periodic events on the network. > > > That's an interesting way to solve these problems. As I mentioned once, > we try to avoid collisions of packets completely by either negotiating > or centrally assigning a global schedule for the measurement slots. I > can see a way to use OWAMP-control for the latter, centralized case. How > to efficiently negotiate a test without that entity still poses a > problem for me. > > Do you think it would be possible within the protocol to _efficiently_ > negotiate a common starting time when both ends have sets of timeslices > available, but which may differ in most cases? In my opinion a simple > ACK/NACK type of negotiation could introduce a lot of round-trips for > that scenario. I don't think you would want to do this within the protocol. What I would probably think of instead is to have an entity that coordinated the tests and used an Identity/AES key to identify them. That set of Identity/AES keys and coordinated schedule definitions could then be distributed to the "back-end" of your servers. Then, you could use the authenticated mode of OWAMP to request a test that you have already "scheduled" to actually run it. >>The other part of the test request indicating the schedule would be to specify >>the number of packets you wanted in the full test stream. (We make our tests >>extremely long so we don't have to speak OWAMP-control very often. On the order >>of 24 hours.) For example, if you specified 1000 for the number of packets in >>the test, then this test would take 200 minutes to finish. 5 packets would be >>sent every minute. This is all described in section 3.6 of the spec (page 17). > > > I think we'll handle our case of permanent measurements as a special > case of this. Maybe by specifying a special value of 2^32-1 as the > number of packets? The implementation should then be able to take care > of it like I want to see it. I don't think adding special values into the test request (for the general case) is such a good idea because of interoperability. It is possible that another implementation could actually use 2^32-1 to request a test and actually mean that many packets. After all, that is the maximum number of packets that can be requested and depending upon how much bandwidth you allow, that doesn't have to be that long of a time period on a 10 GigE interface... Granted, this might not be the best way to get good latency information but it would be a reasonable way to use OWAMP to look for line-rate reordering. The out-of-band trick I suggested above would work for this as well, while keeping interoperability. You could share a specific "identity" name out of bounds of the OWAMP protocol. (There is no way to distribute identities within the protocol anyway.) But the point is that your implementation could assign specific meaning to this identity. You could say that anything that authenticates with this identity means "infinity" if it specifies 2^32-1. (Or as indicated above, anything that authenticates with this identity has already allocated a specific schedule.) jeff _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From gvnsg@o2.pl Sat Feb 5 01:41:35 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19385; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 01:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from p5076-ipad33akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp ([60.37.136.76]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CxJwL-0008Hw-DJ; Sat, 05 Feb 2005 02:01:10 -0500 Received: from symphony-25.iinet.net.au ([18.202.24.61]:1906 "HELO mail.ies.edu") by ies.edu with SMTP id ; Sat, 05 Feb 2005 01:35:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:36:26 +0500 Message-Id: <7.8.10.2081924.0083fc70@ies.edu> From: "Marjorie Stroud" To: Subject: Re: All the different types of pain X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: LKQLMTEA List-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----------A48356845382213" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a5d64674af3d12893846a18a44c07b83 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------A48356845382213 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A85031401794097" ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset = "us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit meme only . septacro resorcinol cattail. sanctify throttle scuffle dentistry glenn simplicity cumberland egipt. ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit antler eliminate
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ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 04:19:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08889 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 04:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from beba.cesnet.cz ([195.113.150.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cy5Ml-0003BR-IF for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 04:39:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (ubik@localhost) by beba.cesnet.cz (8.11.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id j179JUr27808; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:19:30 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: beba.cesnet.cz: ubik owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:19:29 +0100 (CET) From: Sven Ubik To: "Jeff W. Boote" In-Reply-To: <4203EEC4.6060204@internet2.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 04:40:02 -0500 Cc: Nicolas Simar , Eric Boyd , ippm@ietf.org, WiN Labor , owamp-users@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol implementation Was: [GN2-JRA1] [I2PAT-G2JRA1] Classification of RRD X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, one implementation question: does IPPM and OWAMP currently support IPv6 and multicast? I can imagine that some performance characteristics (such as delay fluctuation, from what is in the scope of IPPM and OWAMP) can be different between IPv4 and IPv6 and between unicast and multicast due to differences in packet processing in routers. Regards, Sven Ubik _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 7 05:48:08 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA14738 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cy6M5-0003vr-3a; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:42:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cy5ti-0008Q0-2d for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:13:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA12537 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from faui03.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ([131.188.30.103]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cy6D1-0004K0-Mp for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:33:39 -0500 Received: from krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de (krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.81.53]) by faui03.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j17ADVJN029933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:13:31 GMT From: Roland Karch To: "Jeff W. Boote" In-Reply-To: <4203EEC4.6060204@internet2.edu> References: <200502010839.j118dsBr003497@tyholt.uninett.no> <41FFBC5A.8010609@internet2.edu> <41FFC80A.6050207@internet2.edu> <4200B645.8000903@dante.org.uk> <420122BF.90202@internet2.edu> <4201E49C.3060501@dante.org.uk> <42024F4D.8050209@internet2.edu> <1107452487.16868.44.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <42027096.1010100@internet2.edu> <1107533084.19001.85.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <4203EEC4.6060204@internet2.edu> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:13:25 +0100 Message-Id: <1107771205.27784.42.camel@krieg.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:42:55 -0500 Cc: Nicolas Simar , ippm@ietf.org, Eric Boyd , WiN Labor , owamp-users@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol implementation Was: [GN2-JRA1] [I2PAT-G2JRA1] Classification of RRD X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1428737284==" Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --===============1428737284== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-XttsIj5jowmz7fhcjXBJ" --=-XttsIj5jowmz7fhcjXBJ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2005-02-04 at 14:53 -0700, Jeff W. Boote wrote: > [Stas and other IPPM list watchers - this thread started out as a discuss= ion on=20 > what would be needed to get the DFN IPPM OWD implementation to interact w= ith our=20 > owamp implementation for the purposes of joint measurement between our ne= tworks.=20 > Basically, how much of the OWAMP protocol would need to be implemented wi= thin=20 > IPPM for different levels of interoperability. But, this is not strictly = all=20 > protocol related. Oh, and another confusion. DFN has an OWD application c= alled=20 > IPPM - so there might be some confusion as to the meaning of the term IPP= M.] We're trying to work on that second part since a few weeks. Hopefully, we'll have an innovative name soon. Till then, we at least try to avoid ambiguity by calling it DFN IPPM. > Roland Karch wrote: > >>So, for a more concrete example: If you want to send a set of 5 packets= every 1=20 > >>min using the OWAMP control protocol you would specify your send schedu= le as: > >> > >>slot index slot type slot arg > >>0 1(periodic) 60 (1 min) > >>1 1 0 > >>2 1 0 > >>3 1 0 > >>4 1 0 > >=20 > >=20 > > Excellent, that's (almost) how I would describe a part of our packet > > grouping problem. One thing I'd avoid is to have 0 waiting time between > > test packets. I've seen some interesting effects, just because the > > sender actually queued packets faster than it could send them out on ou= r > > system. >=20 > I believe your last sentence demonstrates a different measurement philoso= phy for=20 > your IPPM implementation than we have used in the Internet2 owamp impleme= ntation. >=20 > Our owamp implementation was written with the expectation that it would r= un on a=20 > multi-user operating system in user space. This is not a requirement of t= he=20 > protocol, and another implementation could get much much better accuracy = than we=20 > do (imagine using a NIC that understood OWAMP and had GPS built-in). Indeed, a specialized NIC can help tremendously. We also made some interesting measurements [1] with the Endace cards. However, it would be almost impossible to build a tight mesh of such specialized equipment. > The=20 > advantage of our implementation is that it should be possible to install,= run=20 > and get "reasonable" results on a wide variety of hardware/OS combination= s.=20 > Given this type of implementation, we will have "interesting effects" sim= ply due=20 > to OS job scheduling. >=20 > For these reasons, on the Abilene network we have relied more upon statis= tical=20 > views of the owamp data that discount outliers. It sounds like IPPM attem= pts to=20 > minimize the "interesting effects" while testing much more than we do. (I= =20 > believe the OWAMP protocol will still work fine for you.) Yes, one of our prime goals is to reach an as high as possible accuracy. If you're interested in that particular phenomenon, in [2] you can see the impact of such a "packet train" configuration without minimal wait states after sending each packet. On the left and right borders of the diagram, the wait states were in place, while they were missing for the bigger part of the measurement. The difference is actually no big deal, however it's easier to spot real network phenomena when you have a sharp baseline for the measurements. > I bring up this difference only because I think it illustrates why you ar= e so=20 > much more interested in coordinating your measurements than we have been. >=20 > This might give you some insight into our philosophy for Abilene measurem= ents:=20 > We typically look at the 95th percentile of latency relative to the media= n=20 > latency on a given path. So, we are counting on less than 5% of our packe= ts=20 > experiencing those "interesting effects". If more than 5% of the packets = in a=20 > given time period deviate significantly from the median, than we have usu= ally=20 > found queuing. We usually look at 30 second samples and we typically send= 10=20 > packets per second per path of interest. So, we are usually looking at 30= 0=20 > packet timings. On Abilene that equates to a minimum of 22 sending stream= s and=20 > and 22 receiving streams on each one of the Abilene owamp hosts with addi= tional=20 > streams for tests with peer networks and institutions. That makes for quite a fascinating comparison between our measurement networks, indeed. So while DFN has substantially more single measurements (almost 1300) we seem to have substantially less measurement traffic per host (5 packets every 30s per measurement path). I'm looking forward to seeing how the measurements will perform when directly colocated. > > Do you think it would be possible within the protocol to _efficiently_ > > negotiate a common starting time when both ends have sets of timeslices > > available, but which may differ in most cases? In my opinion a simple > > ACK/NACK type of negotiation could introduce a lot of round-trips for > > that scenario. >=20 > I don't think you would want to do this within the protocol. What I would= =20 > probably think of instead is to have an entity that coordinated the tests= and=20 > used an Identity/AES key to identify them. That set of Identity/AES keys = and=20 > coordinated schedule definitions could then be distributed to the "back-e= nd" of=20 > your servers. Then, you could use the authenticated mode of OWAMP to requ= est a=20 > test that you have already "scheduled" to actually run it. That works well for the case of a central entity. While I am actually someone who advertises this solution, I would still enjoy to actually live without it. But I guess that this would add a lot of unwanted complexity to the negotiation protocol? > > I think we'll handle our case of permanent measurements as a special > > case of this. Maybe by specifying a special value of 2^32-1 as the > > number of packets? The implementation should then be able to take care > > of it like I want to see it. >=20 > I don't think adding special values into the test request (for the genera= l case)=20 > is such a good idea because of interoperability. It is possible that anot= her=20 > implementation could actually use 2^32-1 to request a test and actually m= ean=20 > that many packets. After all, that is the maximum number of packets that = can be=20 > requested and depending upon how much bandwidth you allow, that doesn't h= ave to=20 > be that long of a time period on a 10 GigE interface... Granted, this mig= ht not=20 > be the best way to get good latency information but it would be a reasona= ble way=20 > to use OWAMP to look for line-rate reordering. >=20 > The out-of-band trick I suggested above would work for this as well, whil= e=20 > keeping interoperability. You could share a specific "identity" name out = of=20 > bounds of the OWAMP protocol. (There is no way to distribute identities w= ithin=20 > the protocol anyway.) But the point is that your implementation could ass= ign=20 > specific meaning to this identity. You could say that anything that=20 > authenticates with this identity means "infinity" if it specifies 2^32-1.= (Or as=20 > indicated above, anything that authenticates with this identity has alrea= dy=20 > allocated a specific schedule.) Thanks for these hints, I think they'll work nicely in practice. Greetings, Roland [1] http://www.win-labor.dfn.de/ippm/passivmessungen.html [2] http://www.win-labor.dfn.de/cgi-bin/ipqos/ipqos_detail.pl?date=3D04.02.2005= &metric=3Dowd&from=3Dippm_trimble_m&to=3DFrankfurt_DFN&psize=3D429&ymin=3D1= 5&ymax=3D20&ylimit=3Don&begin=3D09:00:00&end=3D14:10:00 --=-XttsIj5jowmz7fhcjXBJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (SunOS) iEYEABECAAYFAkIHP0MACgkQGx+eFeW2O4He1wCgiYG8QMPO8pAT787TUeMyiX7s YRoAn2SsRNSWdIk09n8S16RH+yGHIufa =drMr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-XttsIj5jowmz7fhcjXBJ-- --===============1428737284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --===============1428737284==-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 7 06:28:45 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17719 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cy70n-0004LH-Pd; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:25:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cy6zE-0003fP-CR for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:23:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17253 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.0.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cy7Ib-0005hK-VC for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:43:26 -0500 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id 5851223FB7; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:22:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7600E23EF1; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:22:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from Geir.ripe.net (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j17BMneu014150; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:22:50 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207121239.02c74a50@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:22:46 +0100 To: ippm@ietf.org From: Henk Uijterwaal Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol implementation Was: [GN2-JRA1] [I2PAT-G2JRA1] Classification of RRD In-Reply-To: References: <4203EEC4.6060204@internet2.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000000 / -5.9 X-RIPE-Signature: 09d6c09bf69c771ad33219ab615cd5c7 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org At 10:19 07/02/2005, Sven Ubik wrote: >one implementation question: does IPPM and OWAMP currently support >IPv6 and multicast? I can imagine that some performance characteristics >(such as delay fluctuation, from what is in the scope of IPPM and OWAMP) >can be different between IPv4 and IPv6 and between unicast and multicast >due to differences in packet processing in routers. The metrics developed by the IPPM group are independent of the IP protocol version used, it is up to the implementors to decide if they want to do measurements on IPv4 or IPv6 (or both). Of the 5 implementations that are mentioned in the implementation report, (at least) 2 support IPv6, all 5 support IPv4. The OWAMP protocol as such supports IPv4 and IPv6, again leaving it up to the implementors to decide which versions are supported in their implementation. There has been some discussion on the mailing list on Multicast related metrics, and there is an individual submission draft on multicast metrics (draft-liang-multiparty-para-00.txt). At the moment, the WG is discussing if/what we should do in this area. If you have any thoughts, speak up. Henk (IPPM WG co-chair). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlaine) _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 7 11:31:14 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14209 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CyBej-0007U6-Sr; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:22:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CyBdP-000729-Tr for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:21:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13581 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CyBwp-0004Be-C7 for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:41:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1BD1CD706; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29919-08; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BAB1CD574; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:21:03 -0500 (EST) To: Sven Ubik Subject: Re: [ippm] OWAMP protocol implementation References: From: stanislav shalunov Date: 07 Feb 2005 11:21:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <864qgonxxv.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Sven Ubik writes: > [...] does IPPM and OWAMP currently support IPv6 Yes. OWAMP can do either IPv6 and IPv4. You can even have the control connection and the test stream use different protocol numbers. > and multicast? No. The IPPM WG, so far, hasn't defined any multicast-related metric that a protocol such as OWAMP could help measure. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at an angle of 45 degrees. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 8 02:08:30 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26077 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 02:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CyPSi-0006Yd-VI; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:07:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CyCkL-0007UM-1a for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:32:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20403 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CyD3l-00063m-7V for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:52:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A119D1CD77D; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11581-02; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD66A1CD69D; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:32:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4207A623.9020902@internet2.edu> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:32:19 -0700 From: "Jeff W. Boote" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sven Ubik References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:06:21 -0500 Cc: Nicolas Simar , Eric Boyd , ippm@ietf.org, WiN Labor , owamp-users@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] Re: OWAMP protocol implementation Was: [GN2-JRA1] [I2PAT-G2JRA1] Classification of RRD X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sven Ubik wrote: > one implementation question: does IPPM and OWAMP currently support > IPv6 and multicast? I can imagine that some performance characteristics > (such as delay fluctuation, from what is in the scope of IPPM and OWAMP) > can be different between IPv4 and IPv6 and between unicast and multicast > due to differences in packet processing in routers. The Internet2 owamp implementation supports IPv4 and IPv6. The owamp implementation does not support mulitcast. The OWAMP control protocol itself was designed for unicast, not multicast. It would be a non-trivial exercise to extend it for multicast use. However, I believe the OWAMP-Test packet format would still be beneficial and appropriate for multicast latency measurements. jeff _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 8 02:11:27 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA28923 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 02:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CyPSj-0006Yi-Vh; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:07:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CyHWf-00049Q-Jr; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:38:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07489; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CyHq9-00026H-J4; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:58:45 -0500 Received: from apache by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1CyHOY-0000or-5q; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:30:14 -0500 X-test-idtracker: no From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Message-Id: Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:30:14 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:06:22 -0500 Cc: ippm chair , Internet Architecture Board , ippm chair , ippm mailing list , RFC Editor Subject: [ippm] Protocol Action: 'IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) metrics registry' to BCP X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has approved the following document: - 'IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) metrics registry ' as a BCP This document is the product of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Allison Mankin and Jon Peterson. Technical Summary This BCP-to-be defines an IANA-maintained registry for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM). It defines and requests the registration of an initial set of OBJECT IDENTITIES to currently defined metrics in the IETF. The document also defines the rules for adding new IP Performance Metrics that are defined in the future and for encouraging all IP performance metrics to be registered here. Working Group Summary The working group supported the specification. The work was viewed by the Transport Area as needing to be normatively cited by the RMON WG's Transport Performance Metrics MIB, so there was some cross-working group discussion, and the view was supported. Protocol Quality There specification received very effective review by the IPPM WG's Network Management advisor, Andy Bierman and also by Bert Wijnen. Allison Mankin and Henk Uijterwaal shepherded the document for the IESG. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 8 16:19:59 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23561 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CycAj-0005zw-Jx; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:41:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cyc68-0003B1-1T; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:36:36 -0500 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14803; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:36:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200502082036.PAA14803@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:36:34 -0500 Cc: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : Overview of Implementation reports for RFC 2678 - 2681 Author(s) : H. Uijterwaal Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2005-2-8 This document contains a summary of the implementation reports submitted for RFC's 2678 to 2681 during the second half of 2004. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-2-8160412.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-2-8160412.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --NextPart-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 9 18:11:08 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11025 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cz0wr-0000Sw-HD; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:08:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cz0tM-0006K7-6j for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:05:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09711 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from webmail.brixnet.com ([63.122.27.38] helo=brixcorp2.brixnet.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cz1DE-0002bA-Qz for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:25:38 -0500 Received: by mail.brixnet.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2658.3) id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:04:27 -0500 Message-ID: <07B0D4912B83D31188F300A0C9F62EBB03E7AB85@mail.brixnet.com> From: "Hedayat, Kaynam" To: ippm@ietf.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:04:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2658.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Subject: [ippm] Two Way Active Measurement Protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org I would like to raise the attention of the group to the following draft. http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i-d-announce/current/msg03869.html Regards, Kaynam ----------------------------------------- Kaynam Hedayat Chief Technology Officer Brix Networks 285 Mill Road Chelmsford, MA 01824 tel. 978.367.5611 fax. 978.367.5700 khedayat@brixnet.com www.brixnet.com See it before they hear it: Test the performance and quality of your VoIP at www.TestYourVoip.com _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 18 16:35:29 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24525 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D2Et4-0007s1-LL; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:38:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D2Eg4-0002Zd-N8; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:24:41 -0500 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08730; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:24:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200502182024.PAA08730@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:24:39 -0500 Cc: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : Packet Reordering Metric for IPPM Author(s) : A. Morton, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt Pages : 38 Date : 2005-2-18 This memo defines metrics to evaluate if a network has maintained packet order on a packet-by-packet basis. It provides motivations for the new metrics and discusses the measurement issues. The memo first defines a reordered singleton, and then uses it as the basis for sample metrics to quantify the extent of reordering in several useful dimensions for network characterization or receiver design. Additional metrics quantify the frequency of reordering and the distance between separate occurrences. We then define a metric with purely receiver analysis orientation. Several examples of evaluation using the various sample metrics are included. An Appendix gives extended definitions for evaluating order with packet fragmentation. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-2-18144431.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-2-18144431.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --NextPart-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 23 01:37:11 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19470 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D3kgB-0004dN-EB; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:47:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D3fTz-0000uN-Pv for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:14:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05570 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from almso1.att.com ([192.128.167.69] helo=almso1.proxy.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D3fqO-0006sb-74 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:37:17 -0500 Received: from attrh0i.attrh.att.com ([135.37.94.54]) by almso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-5.5) with ESMTP id j1MJDP7m005684 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:13:25 -0500 Received: from custsla.mt.att.com (135.21.14.109) by attrh0i.attrh.att.com (7.1.006) id 42064E72002E3D18 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:13:25 -0500 Received: from acmortonw.att.com ([135.25.188.42]) by custsla.mt.att.com (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j1MJDNZ03071 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:13:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20050222090544.02674ab0@custsla.mt.att.com> X-Sender: acm@custsla.mt.att.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:12:55 -0500 To: ippm@ietf.org From: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt In-Reply-To: <200502182024.PAA08730@ietf.org> References: <200502182024.PAA08730@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org At 03:24 PM 02/18/2005, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > Title : Packet Reordering Metric for IPPM > Author(s) : A. Morton, et al. > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt > Pages : 38 > Date : 2005-2-18 >... >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt This version addresses all comments from the recent WG Last Call (Mark Allman's sent his to the list, Vern Paxson and Phil Chimento sent comments directly to me and the Chairs). There were only a few instances where I thought there was a justification to deviate from the suggested changes. For example: At 04:53 PM 01/25/2005, Mark Allman wrote: >Section 3.2: > > * This just doesn't look like it was buffed to talk about only message > numbers (and not bytes or time). E.g., the definition of NextExp is > bogus. And, it would seem as if SrcByte and PayloadSize and SrcTime > should be noted as optional. The singleton definitions for Loss, Delay, and IPDV metrics all refer to wire time at the Source. So, rather than make SrcTime optional, I made it an explicit aspect of the singleton definition, to be consistent with the other singletons. SrcByte and PayloadSize are optional parameters now. There was another case where two comments conflicted to some degree (add general requirements for sequence unique sequence identification vs. use of message numbering only). I've implemented one possible balance between these comments in the text of section 3. There's a new section 2.3 "Required Context for all Reordering Metrics", and several reminders to report all the stream parameters. This section embellishes material that was distributed throughout the text and moves it up front, for more emphasis. Rather than type out all the changes, it's certainly more efficient to point to a diff version: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/reordering/draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09-from-08.diff.html We've already found some minor things to revise, but folks who commented should certainly look 09 over to see if the changes satisfy. We can discuss further on the list or during the IPPM session at -62. regards, Al _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From MORIIRPOMRH@yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 10:22:42 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26091; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D3yiH-0004vb-6E; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:46:13 -0500 Received: from [219.251.249.173] (helo=SEA) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1D3yLV-0000Oe-Mm; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:22:38 -0500 Received: from .anu..au ([116.72.64.168] helo=anu..au) by smtp6..co with esmtp id 1A5Ys6-784138-23 Message-ID: Sender: freeradius-devel-MORIIRPOMRH@yahoo.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:21:49 +0400 From: "Errol Forbes" To: ipoverib-request@ietf.org Subject: SU-per Hu^ge 0ffers Ipoverib-request X-Spam-Score: 10.3 (++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 This Months speciial: Vi-codinn - 199.00 Valiuum - 169.00 Viagraa - 199.00 Cia-llis - 269.00 Codeinne - 219.00 Xa-naax - 179.00 All orderrs are delivered by UPS with full tracking 24/7. Satisfactiionnss guaaranteeed... http://www.ilovemeds.com/index.php?aid=8 This is 1 -time mailing. N0-re m0val are re'qui-red jIUuLJAazVrF6WgJZLXMaDk7T2N52a9ohDJE8tKzxwAQcc6jwno1U From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 23 18:28:49 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13366 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D3tRN-00057Q-Nm; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:08:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D3tRI-00051P-LX for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:08:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA26702; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.0.199]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D3tnm-0005ek-6m; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:31:31 -0500 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id 0A89326AE9; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:07:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAF526AE7; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:07:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from Geir.ripe.net (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1NA7Veu001597; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:07:32 +0100 Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223100936.02bd0248@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:07:26 +0100 To: ippm@ietf.org, matt@internet2.edu, agenda@ietf.org From: Henk Uijterwaal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000063 / -5.9 X-RIPE-Signature: 3c3510278324aece1d181e6669913268 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [ippm] Draft agenda for MPLS X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IPPM group, The IPPM group will meet on Monday March 7, 19:30 in MPLS. Items on the agenda so-far are: 1. Administrativia =96 Agenda Bashing, Scribe, Minutes, Blue Sheets =96 Status of Drafts and Milestones 2. Phil Chimento/Joe Ishac: Bandwidth draft 3. Kayman Hedayat/A Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) draft-hedayat-two-way-active-measurement-protocol-00.txt 4. Al Morton: Reordering draft-ietf-ippm-reordering-09.txt 5. Nischal Piratla: Reordering = draft-jayasumana-reorder-density-03=20 6. Juergen Quittek for Saverio Niccolini. draft-niccolini-ippm-storetraceroutes-00.txt 7. Emile Stephan-Lei Liang: Multiparty metrics 8. Henk Uijterwaal: Implementation reports draft-ietf-ippm-implement-00.txt 9. AOB If you have anything to add, let me know, Henk ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Look here junior, don't you be so happy. And for Heaven's sake, don't you be so sad. (Tom Verlaine)= =20 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From jjluhso@go2.pl Sun Feb 27 12:07:47 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13237; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [12.170.10.72] (helo=VCON-73V38UZR1K) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D5Ru5-0001NF-Fr; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:08:26 -0500 Received: from symphony-48.go2.pl ([170.195.216.80]:1906 "HELO mail.go2.pl") by go2.pl with SMTP id ; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:09:13 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:11:13 +0600 Message-Id: <8.7.12.2081924.0083fc70@go2.pl> From: "Myron Bland" To: Subject: Its the time to make a change X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: LKQLMTEA List-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----------A48356845382213" X-Spam-Score: 7.1 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 2ce306e4307a2c0b518ae453b13efdd0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------A48356845382213 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------A85031401794097" ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset = "us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.g3tit.com/mortgage.asp. ------------A85031401794097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit monaco doug

 
 
 
 
 
 
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from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20324 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D5l9i-0004T3-BZ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:41:50 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D5gSR-0008Fn-T9 for ippm@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:40:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA19382 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.15]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D5gT8-0000tk-Vn for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:41:36 -0500 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:40:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51D71.2B664FC4" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:40:25 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: dratf-stephan-ippm-multimetrics Thread-Index: AcUb4z/zqVoGuQc+QtyIzGr5Oq9v0wBieNGA From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2005 08:40:26.0346 (UTC) FILETIME=[267244A0:01C51D71] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34a12386bc31e4adf7d931eae58f5833 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:41:48 -0500 Cc: JP Vasseur , henk@ripe.net, Lei Liang , matt@internet2.edu Subject: [ippm] RE: dratf-stephan-ippm-multimetrics X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51D71.2B664FC4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, TO sum up, Henk and JP asked me, separately, to work on metrics related to one-to-many measurement points.=20 Please find the first result in attachment:=20 Lei and I merged 3 ID related to multiparty metrics, spatial metrics and multicast metric. 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