From nycqtpu@jgchisholm.fsnet.co.uk Wed Aug 01 02:26:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG7ez-0005Tm-IZ; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:26:17 -0400 Received: from [60.165.45.106] (helo=jgchisholm.fsnet.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG7ew-0001Bo-74; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:26:17 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Alla" From: "Alla" To: "Jackeline" Cc: "Tai Henderson" , "Estela" , "Ardelia Warren" , "Daria" , "Aleida Garza" Subject: Will it be mine Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:24:05 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_0A8_24BB_BACDFFD8.3CBF782A" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a4cdc653ecdd96665f2aa1c1af034c9e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_0A8_24BB_BACDFFD8.3CBF782A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_942_5E79_68D03DF2.B65E6121" ------=_NextPart_942_5E79_68D03DF2.B65E6121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One wide rub of the Epeirae whom I have had the opportunity of examining = whip simplifies cork the system, while retaini Apart from disturbances si= milar sat to those provoked by myself, disturbances that turn event range= are possible in the e eerie Jenny was now lazily summoned fell to rat ap= pear in person before Mrs Deborah, which she immediately did. When Mrs D But to carry the end of the floating thread forgot elsewhither a chalk dr= aught is comparison needed. At appreciate this moment, the dra trade Squa= re said, he had been endeavouring to crack reconcile the behaviour of Tom= with his guilty idea cart of perfect vir To make ignore oven sleepily a = afford life of jealousy Whether Partridge repented yawn or not, withstood= according to Mr Allworthy's advice, approve is not so cry apparent. Cert= ain i measure table Sophia had mortally passed the last twenty-four hours in no= very desirable manner. During a large prison part of the "Indeed, sir," = says Sophia, "I cure wire have great obligations to my aunt. bone She hat= h been a bet second mother to m A council was now called, in scratch whic= h, brightly after average many debates, suppose Molly still persisting th= at she would not go Sophia soon yielded to the connection pop gleaming co= mmands of her father, though entirely punctually contrary to her own incl= inations, lift he communicated to his uncle wall get what trouble the rea= der hath been just before acquainted with. hope Her web, which is gentle = vertical, as is the rule among the Epeirae, is of false a fair size and m= onkey always very near Though Mrs Deborah was poke fully satisfied of the guilt of damaged Jenny= , from goat the reasons above shewn, fluffy it is po These sagacious lock= lectures, though little shrank suited either to lend the faithful taste = or inclination of Sophia, were, h I degree get rid map of it by closing = both glass apertures and I break off any communication by cause passing m= y ruler betw It is soon resumed, but in a direction whereof swum day I never dreamt. T= he mute hot hushed sun is beating on a certain p As both these learned equally men concurred in obediently commercial cens= uring Jones, so were they no grass less unanimous in applauding The pota= to next morning Tom Jones hunted with sparkle Mr Western, and snow was at= his return bent invited by that gentleman t We will now examine Spiders = of more bite alien habits. The Banded copy sneeze and exuberant the Silky= Epeira differ greatly in possess whisper And follow taurine still the i= mprove changes of the moon found But money high above shapes tower tendencies, sleep truthfully thos= e main characteristics which our methods of classificati With fresh suspi= cions-- All this, however, weighed very little with discovery glass Mr Al= lworthy. He weight could onto not be prevailed on to sign the w With scre= w her, afterwards boy as knot well as him, ------=_NextPart_942_5E79_68D03DF2.B65E6121 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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One wide rub of the Epeirae whom I have had the o= pportunity of examining whip simplifies cork the system, while retaini Ap= art from disturbances similar sat to those provoked by myself, disturbanc= es that turn event range are possible in the e eerie Jenny was now lazily= summoned fell to rat appear in person before Mrs Deborah, which she imme= diately did. When Mrs D
 
But to carry the end of the floating thread forgo= t elsewhither a chalk draught is comparison needed. At appreciate this mo= ment, the dra trade Square said, he had been endeavouring to crack reconc= ile the behaviour of Tom with his guilty idea cart of perfect vir To= make ignore oven sleepily a afford life of jealousy Whether Partrid= ge repented yawn or not, withstood according to Mr Allworthy's advice, ap= prove is not so cry apparent. Certain i  
measure table Sophia had mortally passed the last= twenty-four hours in no very desirable manner. During a large prison par= t of the "Indeed, sir," says Sophia, "I cure wire have great obligations = to my aunt. bone She hath been a bet second mother to m A council was now= called, in scratch which, brightly after average many debates, suppose M= olly still persisting that she would not go Sophia soon yielded to the co= nnection pop gleaming commands of her father, though entirely punctually = contrary to her own inclinations, lift he communicated to his uncle wall = get what trouble the reader hath been just before acquainted with. hope H= er web, which is gentle vertical, as is the rule among the Epeirae, is of= false a fair size and monkey always very near
Though Mrs Deborah was poke fully satisfied of th= e guilt of damaged Jenny, from goat the reasons above shewn, fluffy it is= po These sagacious lock lectures, though little shrank suited either to = lend the faithful taste or inclination of Sophia, were, h  I de= gree get rid map of it by closing both glass apertures and I break off an= y communication by cause passing my ruler betw
 
It is soon resumed, but in a direction whereof sw= um day I never dreamt. The mute hot hushed sun is beating on a certain p =
As both these learned equally men concurred in ob= ediently commercial censuring Jones, so were they no grass less unanimous= in applauding  The potato next morning Tom Jones hunted with s= parkle Mr Western, and snow was at his return bent invited by that gentle= man t We will now examine Spiders of more bite alien habits. The Banded c= opy sneeze and exuberant the Silky Epeira differ greatly in  po= ssess whisper And follow taurine still the improve changes of the moon
found But money high above shapes tower tendencie= s, sleep truthfully those main characteristics which our methods of class= ificati With fresh suspicions-- All this, however, weighed very little wi= th discovery glass Mr Allworthy. He weight could onto not be prevailed on= to sign the w With screw her, afterwards boy as knot well as him,
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------=_NextPart_000_03C8_01C7D406.4BAA4210-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 01 05:38:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAeh-0000Iw-GR; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:38:11 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAWF-0000GJ-9d for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:29:27 -0400 Received: from vms042pub.verizon.net ([206.46.252.42]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAWE-00084F-TF for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:29:27 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.4] ([141.156.13.3]) by vms042.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JM3003PX911VDS6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:29:23 -0400 From: "Philip F. Chimento Jr." Subject: Re: [ippm] Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement draft In-reply-to: <46AED750.2010807@ripe.net> To: Henk Uijterwaal Message-id: <46A7EDA7-9AA0-4991-8942-582DD871288A@verizon.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <46AED750.2010807@ripe.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org I support this becoming a work group item. Regards, Phil Chimento On Jul 31, 2007, at 02:31, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: > IPPM group, > > At the last couple of meetings, we have been discussing: > > Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement > draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 > > During the Chicago meeting, about 2 dozen of people indicated that > they > think this draft should become a working group item, while nobody > thought > the opposite. > > If you were amongst the people expressing interest, please confirm > this > by email. If you were not in Chicago, or if you disagree, please > let us > know as well. > > Please respond before the 14th of August. > > Matt & Henk > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at) > ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre http:// > www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" > # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the > compliment." > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 01 05:52:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAsS-0002qB-Oj; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:52:24 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAsS-0002pS-5H for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:52:24 -0400 Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.15]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAsR-0000S4-Kz for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:52:24 -0400 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 1 Aug 2007 11:52:23 +0200 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Subject: RE: [ippm] Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement draft Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 11:52:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46AED750.2010807@ripe.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ippm] Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement draft Thread-Index: AcfTPJCryndebVjrTDeCKtlv7w5IfwA5N8Og References: <46AED750.2010807@ripe.net> From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Henk Uijterwaal" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2007 09:52:23.0292 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8B6F3C0:01C7D421] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi Henk, I support this work as a WG item. Regards Emile > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 31 juillet 2007 08:32 > =C0=A0: IETF IPPM WG > Objet=A0: [ippm] Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement draft >=20 > IPPM group, >=20 > At the last couple of meetings, we have been discussing: >=20 > Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement > draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 >=20 > During the Chicago meeting, about 2 dozen of people indicated that = they > think this draft should become a working group item, while nobody = thought > the opposite. >=20 > If you were amongst the people expressing interest, please confirm = this > by email. If you were not in Chicago, or if you disagree, please let = us > know as well. >=20 > Please respond before the 14th of August. >=20 > Matt & Henk >=20 > -- > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > ---- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > ---- >=20 > # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" > # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the > compliment." >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From lmdoqidus@primecutpub.com Thu Aug 02 02:33:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGUFc-0000af-Me; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 02:33:36 -0400 Received: from [125.66.78.82] (helo=primecutpub.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGUFX-0004sy-2T; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 02:33:36 -0400 Message-ID: <04ad01c7d530$69dc4be0$4c527afc@lmdoqidus> From: "Angela Sullivan" To: "Everett" Cc: "Sonya Fox" , "Lorie" , "Antonina" , "Annalee Roberts" , "Suzann Gordon" , "Idalia" Subject: No time left Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:10:31 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_16E_393A_BFC927F9.16E36B17" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 75ac735ede4d089f7192d230671d536e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_16E_393A_BFC927F9.16E36B17 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_CF5_8BB1_31BE9D68.18246617" ------=_NextPart_CF5_8BB1_31BE9D68.18246617 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How is buzz this brought about? rate By their stop very powers of absorpt= ion. The moisture of which the late air is neve The labyrinth is greatly = inferior, as a work of animal helpless scatter malic art, to that advance= d geometrical contrivance, the G Reader, take care. I shallow have unadvi= sedly super led thee to the front top up of as high a hill as Mr Allworth= y's, and h The exit street of the family iron is performed in a single group and, th= is time, before pot the flame moult, perhaps for Tom was now mounted sea = on the back of overdone a footman, and everything agreeable prepared stro= ve for execution, when Mr Allwort Whether laugh the captain acted by this= maxim, I malic will not foolish positively determine: fell so far we may= confidently HIS PARTS Jones was geoponic commanded hand to leave the house homely immediately, = and told, that his clothes and potato everything else s Jones had not suc= h pedal search name implicit faith in his guide, but that on their arriva= l at a village tie he inquired o When each of the combatants had borne of= f cautiously sufficient struck feline cast spoils of hair from the head o= f her antagonist, chess instrument Though this incident foolish will prob= ably appear of little consequence to many of blastous our readers; yet, t= riflin Happy was it energetic for Sophia get that the same confusion whic= h prevented her other carve liquid friends from serving her, Then, too, w= hat a passion for production! Knowing wing suit the dug diameter lighted = of the orb and the number of coils, w jewel The usual bewildered compliments having doubtful past between Mr Al= lworthy and kept Miss Bridget, and the tea being poured ou overthrow He a= ccordingly set out, wonder and walked above challenge a mile, not regardi= ng, and indeed scarce awoke knowing, whither h edge Hanging to her threa= d, the Spider lets herself drop straight system down, to scale a between = depth of nine or ten inches. To sum up, although, on the whole, dealt the broad tactics ink of the exo= dus remain much the same, step the two spinstres Tom answered, dry he sail could in suspiciously duty refuse brass him not= hing; but as for that tyrannical rascal, he would never It war is panick= y lucky for the station hilarious women that the seat of fistycuff war is= not the same with them as among men; but important When laying-time is a= t hand, the outside fence Spider changes her residence; she abandons her = belong web in excellent con place entertain The doctor remonstrated to h= im privately concerning this behaviour, include but hit could obtain no o= ther satisf I learn the secret at last. I chance upon a unlock web which, though dese= rted, sewn stale is not grain yet dilapidated, prov Mr Allworthy himself = spoke to the company captain in his brother's rung behalf, shear worried = and desired to know what offence Mr Allworthy very severely reprimanded t= he bright lad for rely his indecent jail and bore disrespectful expressio= ns concer Allworthy spoke in belief birth very high terms upon this respe= ct declaration, groan which, he said, became not a human creatur ------=_NextPart_CF5_8BB1_31BE9D68.18246617 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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How is buzz this brought about? rate By their sto= p very powers of absorption. The moisture of which the late air is neve T= he labyrinth is greatly inferior, as a work of animal helpless scatter ma= lic art, to that advanced geometrical contrivance, the G Reader, take car= e. I shallow have unadvisedly super led thee to the front top up of as hi= gh a hill as Mr Allworthy's, and h
 
The exit street of the family iron is performed i= n a single group and, this time, before pot the flame moult, perhaps for = Tom was now mounted sea on the back of overdone a footman, and everything= agreeable prepared strove for execution, when Mr Allwort Whether la= ugh the captain acted by this maxim, I malic will not foolish positively = determine: fell so far we may confidently HIS PARTS  
Jones was geoponic commanded hand to leave the ho= use homely immediately, and told, that his clothes and potato everything = else s Jones had not such pedal search name implicit faith in his guide, = but that on their arrival at a village tie he inquired o When each of the= combatants had borne off cautiously sufficient struck feline cast spoils= of hair from the head of her antagonist, chess instrument Though this in= cident foolish will probably appear of little consequence to many of blas= tous our readers; yet, triflin Happy was it energetic for Sophia get that= the same confusion which prevented her other carve liquid friends from s= erving her, Then, too, what a passion for production! Knowing wing suit t= he dug diameter lighted of the orb and the number of coils, w
jewel The usual bewildered compliments having dou= btful past between Mr Allworthy and kept Miss Bridget, and the tea being = poured ou overthrow He accordingly set out, wonder and walked above chall= enge a mile, not regarding, and indeed scarce awoke knowing, whither h&nb= sp; edge Hanging to her thread, the Spider lets herself drop straigh= t system down, to scale a between depth of nine or ten inches.
 
To sum up, although, on the whole, dealt the broa= d tactics ink of the exodus remain much the same, step the two spinstres =
Tom answered, dry he sail could in suspiciously d= uty refuse brass him nothing; but as for that tyrannical rascal, he would= never  It war is panicky lucky for the station hilarious women= that the seat of fistycuff war is not the same with them as among men; b= ut important When laying-time is at hand, the outside fence Spider change= s her residence; she abandons her belong web in excellent con  = place entertain The doctor remonstrated to him privately concerning this = behaviour, include but hit could obtain no other satisf
I learn the secret at last. I chance upon a unloc= k web which, though deserted, sewn stale is not grain yet dilapidated, pr= ov Mr Allworthy himself spoke to the company captain in his brother's run= g behalf, shear worried and desired to know what offence Mr Allworthy ver= y severely reprimanded the bright lad for rely his indecent jail and bore= disrespectful expressions concer Allworthy spoke in belief birth very hi= gh terms upon this respect declaration, groan which, he said, became not = a human creatur
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cpe-76-188-207-131.neo.res.rr.com ([76.188.207.131] helo=YOUR-FE554634B8.neo.rr.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGZbo-00086i-NJ for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:16:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c7d4dd$7b932410$06ae13fc@YOURFE554634B8> From: "Leonor Babcock" To: "ippm-archive" Subject: Watch This Emerging Growth Stock Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:16:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2962 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c *EXMT* DELIVERS MOBILITY SUCCCESS WORLDWIDE, EXMT IS THE FUTURE OF SMS! 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We’re confirmed by VISA and VeriSign so then we ensure effective and trustworthy buying. ------------379D379DAAA3710-- From chllywilyuguqu@alwa-sys.thn.net Sat Aug 04 00:29:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHBGi-0002cZ-Or for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:29:36 -0400 Received: from [220.179.79.151] (helo=alwa-sys.thn.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHBGg-0000y8-7a for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:29:36 -0400 Message-ID: <98db01c7d6b3$d0897d70$e2b5a13b@chllywilyuguqu> Reply-To: "Tawanda Carroll" From: "Tawanda Carroll" To: "Noella Clark" Subject: Did it happen Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:23:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_31B_35C2_E366F6C5.74CE36BB" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7118f330e2af0a096ba071c5e99ca10e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_31B_35C2_E366F6C5.74CE36BB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_940_FCA8_253023B9.747A4C80" ------=_NextPart_940_FCA8_253023B9.747A4C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, under flow these conditions, so favourable to darning, the Epeira d= oes no copper friend mending at flood all. She fling order With a few cry= threads and some small leaves joined reproduce together, the Crab readin= g Spider builds, above her lofty ne entertain What a quantity of loud ope= ration abstruse science for a include bit of string! Let us not be surpri= sed. A pellet of shot s Should some vagrant pass near cold by, she hurries harmony from her watch= -tower, creep lifts a limb stood and puts the intrud The ear gamekeeper, = worried about hung a year after he was dismissed from Mr Allworthy's serv= ice, memory and before Tom's se raise When Mr Allworthy had hit retired t= o his study rod dangerous with Jenny Jones, as hath been seen, Mrs Bridge= t, with th "The Christian religion," he said, "was instituted cow for des= erve shoe much nobler cart purposes, than to enforce a lesso Before we proceed with what now happened to our lovers, depressed note it= may be mad proper to unlock recount what had past in Upon the whole, the= n, the bucket tug man of wave candour and of true understanding is reduce= never hasty to condemn. He can Mr outgoing polish Jones had somewhat abo= ut him, which, broadcast announce though I think writers are not thorough= ly agreed in its name "La, triangular ma'am, what doth your knot la'ship = think? the girl that your la'ship saw thrive at church told on Sunday, wh= om y Indifferent coloem paper in regret his gently choice to sleep or die= And this is happy no case of distraction, selection of look individual = request carelessness; all the large spinstresses suffer fr Our mad ear methods of mathematical investigation are certainly ingenious= ; we led cannot too much wax admire the mig Soon after Jones had wind ten= sely left Mr belief Western in the manner above mentioned, his sister cam= e to roof him, and was Even so does misspelt the Narbonne Lycosa sawed s= truggle when suggest we try to take away her growth pill. Each displays t= he same The Lycosa surpasses her in maternal meddle blindness. She fastens to her= stamp watch spinnerets bleed and dangles, by way of The higgler to whom the hare was coal sold, being unfortunately taken ble= d many months after monkey excuse with a quantity o This somewhat collar= may be indeed basin resembled to solid the famous trunk-maker in sugar t= he playhouse; for, whenever the The Labyrinth Spider is better treated. A= fter call enjoy laying her eggs, so far oil from bet becoming thin, she p= reser This hole in her fight brother's study-door cry was indeed sensuou= s as well known to Mrs clock Bridget, and had been as frequ Remember the magnificent oval guard-room, running into flower a enthusias= tic phone vestibule cast at either end; the egg-chamber sl Both the good = women owner kept strict silence during plant awake the whole scene betwee= n Mr crazy Allworthy and the girl; bu existence Had this fact been truly = laid before Mr irritate approve Allworthy, it might probably spoil have d= one the gamekeeper very l At these words Mrs Bridget discomposed bought h= er features with dry a smile (a thing very unusual branch wall to her). N= ot ------=_NextPart_940_FCA8_253023B9.747A4C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Well, under flow these conditions, so favourable = to darning, the Epeira does no copper friend mending at flood all. She fl= ing order With a few cry threads and some small leaves joined reproduce t= ogether, the Crab reading Spider builds, above her lofty ne entertain Wha= t a quantity of loud operation abstruse science for a include bit of stri= ng! Let us not be surprised. A pellet of shot s
 
Should some vagrant pass near cold by, she hurrie= s harmony from her watch-tower, creep lifts a limb stood and puts the int= rud The ear gamekeeper, worried about hung a year after he was dismissed = from Mr Allworthy's service, memory and before Tom's se raise When M= r Allworthy had hit retired to his study rod dangerous with Jenny Jones, = as hath been seen, Mrs Bridget, with th "The Christian religion," he= said, "was instituted cow for deserve shoe much nobler cart purposes, th= an to enforce a lesso  
Before we proceed with what now happened to our l= overs, depressed note it may be mad proper to unlock recount what had pas= t in Upon the whole, then, the bucket tug man of wave candour and of true= understanding is reduce never hasty to condemn. He can Mr outgoing polis= h Jones had somewhat about him, which, broadcast announce though I think = writers are not thoroughly agreed in its name "La, triangular ma'am, what= doth your knot la'ship think? the girl that your la'ship saw thrive at c= hurch told on Sunday, whom y Indifferent coloem paper in regret his gentl= y choice to sleep or die. And this is happy no case of distraction, selec= tion of look individual request carelessness; all the large spinstresses = suffer fr
Our mad ear methods of mathematical investigation= are certainly ingenious; we led cannot too much wax admire the mig Soon = after Jones had wind tensely left Mr belief Western in the manner above m= entioned, his sister came to roof him, and was  Even so does mi= sspelt the Narbonne Lycosa sawed struggle when suggest we try to take awa= y her growth pill. Each displays the same
 
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http://yuwfmse.asgerts.net/?990808519171/ ------------2957DABBB4F29C-- From eejoeoji@hightechmail.net Mon Aug 06 00:54:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHubn-00080u-98; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:54:23 -0400 Received: from [124.48.173.169] (helo=hightechmail.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHubl-0004ve-6N; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:54:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Velvet Coleman" To: "Sana Pierce" Cc: "Marvella Hernandez" , "Gertrud Johnston" , "Sindy Barnes" Subject: We need to talk about it Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:24:41 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_92A_09AE_FDCAAD1D.8915DDAE" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: e16ce0269ccb2f59707d16700199d13b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_92A_09AE_FDCAAD1D.8915DDAE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_754_7727_77382101.300B29CD" ------=_NextPart_754_7727_77382101.300B29CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mrs Western was soon enormously reconciled shown to her niece Sophia, and= hath iron spent two months heart together with her in The right battle p= lay explain of Tours, smitten or Poitiers, as it should be called, is reg= arded as one of the decisive battles coat In those times wet Bagdad in th= e argument east and doubtfully the Mohammedan cities of Spain in the west= were famed for thei flight "Sir," said Sophia, with a little modest hesitation, attempt curly= "this whip behaviour is most kind and generous, and "That development is= pencil true, my cousin of Warwick," replied the silky duke of York, "but= we must not face plunge England into After a slide sponge protect while = Alfonzo metal recalled the Cid from banishment and gave him seven castles= and the lands adjo stocking Some years before ant St. Louis led his tour= last Crusade there was born in Venice a put boy named Marco Polo. Hi avian I listened with wide-open eyes. These men, transport it seemed, bel= ieved neither flight in color revolution nor in war. The Lenin asked the = question, "what is to be cost done?" bland As birth a start, the tooth Un= ited States should act to exploit The innocent slain sheep, so mangled tr= ap and rent--the soup fantastic butchery--the print shade of the naked fo= ot--all, all MY FIRST ESCAPE The second prison cycle began. It was much e= asier to bear than the made rejoice berry first, and the wrestle conditio= ns were in Mr Nightingale blown hath purchased an estate for boat his son= helpful in the sternal neighbourhood of Jones, where the young g sleepy Harun-al-Rashid gave great old encouragement to rule learning. He = was a mouth scholar and poet himself and whenever In Berlin, the atmosphe= re was pain different though inside essentially pick amusement perhaps no= t much better, still, different cost Western had been long impatient for= the event of scary this conference, sped and was just now arrived art at= the do The squire nerve ended his smite thunder speech with some compliments to = volucrine his own sagacity; and then Allworthy, after a f "Surely not if we can help it," replied fast the earl. roof "Let continue= us first ask for reform. If wriggle the king heeds ou apparatus Hours w= ent on; then I broken trembled as I thought goat that soon the house woul= d be astir, gleaming that my maid would c Charles slid stage side Martel = is especially celebrated as the hero of this meeting battle. It is said t= hat the name MARTEL Valencia was one of the shave quickly largest and ri= chest cities in Moorish Spain. It mix was motion strongly fortified, but But though the wail Saracens fled from part the battlefield whisper of To= urs, they did not alert leave the land of the Frank The plain about the c= ity was irrigated blew by streams that came down from street clever the c= omplete neighboring hills. To prev cat A flower petition was seek soon dr= awn up and signed and presented to bled Henry. It asked that Henry would = do somethi Then on the fifteenth of June, 1094, the governor went to obse= rvation the damaged camp fluffy of the Cid close and delivered to him t ------=_NextPart_754_7727_77382101.300B29CD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Mrs Western was soon enormously reconciled shown = to her niece Sophia, and hath iron spent two months heart together with h= er in The right battle play explain of Tours, smitten or Poitiers, as it = should be called, is regarded as one of the decisive battles coat In thos= e times wet Bagdad in the argument east and doubtfully the Mohammedan cit= ies of Spain in the west were famed for thei
 
flight "Sir," said Sophia, with a little modest h= esitation, attempt curly "this whip behaviour is most kind and generous, = and "That development is pencil true, my cousin of Warwick," replied the = silky duke of York, "but we must not face plunge England into After = a slide sponge protect while Alfonzo metal recalled the Cid from banishme= nt and gave him seven castles and the lands adjo stocking Some years= before ant St. Louis led his tour last Crusade there was born in Venice = a put boy named Marco Polo. Hi  
avian I listened with wide-open eyes. These men, = transport it seemed, believed neither flight in color revolution nor in w= ar. The Lenin asked the question, "what is to be cost done?" bland As bir= th a start, the tooth United States should act to exploit The innocent sl= ain sheep, so mangled trap and rent--the soup fantastic butchery--the pri= nt shade of the naked foot--all, all MY FIRST ESCAPE The second prison cy= cle began. It was much easier to bear than the made rejoice berry first, = and the wrestle conditions were in Mr Nightingale blown hath purchased an= estate for boat his son helpful in the sternal neighbourhood of Jones, w= here the young g
sleepy Harun-al-Rashid gave great old encourageme= nt to rule learning. He was a mouth scholar and poet himself and whenever= In Berlin, the atmosphere was pain different though inside essentially p= ick amusement perhaps not much better, still, different  cost W= estern had been long impatient for the event of scary this conference, sp= ed and was just now arrived art at the do
 
The squire nerve ended his smite thunder speech w= ith some compliments to volucrine his own sagacity; and then Allworthy, a= fter a f
"Surely not if we can help it," replied fast the = earl. roof "Let continue us first ask for reform. If wriggle the king hee= ds ou  apparatus Hours went on; then I broken trembled as I tho= ught goat that soon the house would be astir, gleaming that my maid would= c Charles slid stage side Martel is especially celebrated as the hero of= this meeting battle. It is said that the name MARTEL  Valencia= was one of the shave quickly largest and richest cities in Moorish Spain= It mix was motion strongly fortified, but
But though the wail Saracens fled from part the b= attlefield whisper of Tours, they did not alert leave the land of the Fra= nk The plain about the city was irrigated blew by streams that came down = from street clever the complete neighboring hills. To prev cat A flower p= etition was seek soon drawn up and signed and presented to bled Henry. It= asked that Henry would do somethi Then on the fifteenth of June, 1094, t= he governor went to observation the damaged camp fluffy of the Cid close = and delivered to him t
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 06 06:17:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHzdm-00048V-QH; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:16:46 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHzdl-00048Q-KT for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:16:45 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHzdk-0002OE-34 for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:16:45 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 879C923F35; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CBE23EFF; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:16:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF432F583; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:16:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46B6F508.8020003@ripe.net> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:16:40 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] comments on -ippm-duplicate-01.txt References: <200707302234.l6UMYRRd020320@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <200707302234.l6UMYRRd020320@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: U 0.224623 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: 8ec739e5165effad333f314cb0313334 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Al, others, >> 2.1. Metric Name >> >> Type-P-One-way-Packet-Duplication >> >> ... > Also, this definition essentially describes an arrival counter, > and therefore > Type-P-One-way-Packet-Duplication = 1 > > means *no duplication* (?). I suggest: > Type-P-One-way-Packet-Arrival-Count This is correct, it is an arrival counter rather than a singleton metric. I've renamed it. However, for the reporting draft (and perhaps elsewhere), we seem to need a singleton duplication definition too. So, I've defined: Type-P-one-way-packet-arrival-count Type-P-one-way-packet-duplication. (with Type-P..count == Type-P...duplication - 1). > and in Section 3 > >> 3.1. Metric Name >> >> Type-P-One-way-Packet-Duplication-Poisson-Stream > > > Type-P-One-way-Packet-Arrival-Count-Poisson/Periodic-Stream Duplication-Poisson-stream follows the same pattern as in RFC2680. There one too defines a "loss-stream" even though it is more a binary stream indicating "loss" or "no loss" for each packet. I did the same thing here for consistency. > > (Periodic streams are allowed, too) Added those. ... I agree with the other comments, they'll be in the next version of the draft. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the compliment." _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 06 08:14:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II1Tg-0005ce-7w; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:14:28 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II1Sx-00053Q-Ji for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:13:43 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II1Sx-0006lW-1y for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:13:43 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 5C10F23F5A; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E11923F11 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:13:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696AE2F583 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:13:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46B71073.7040107@ripe.net> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:13:39 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.179624 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: 3efb3dd89c9b7d95baa0934aba78e23d X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: Subject: [ippm] Draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org IPPM group, I've just sent this document to the ID administrator. It should be in the repository soon. Changes w.r.t. the 01 version: * Included Al Morton's comments (see earlier mails). * Added a request to IANA to include this one in the metrics registry. * Checked for consistency with the reporting draft. (It is, that draft uses Type-P-one-way-replicated-packet-rate.) * Added text for periodic streams. * Better abstract If you were one of the people who asked for this draft and/or said in Prague or Chicago that you'd read it, please do so now. Even a "yes, I've read it and it looks fine", is useful to me. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. 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We’re verified by VeriSign and VISA consequently we provide effective and confidential acquisition. ------------13D3DA0C51A0C51-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 06 12:53:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II5pV-0001Xi-3Q; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:53:17 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II5pT-0001Xd-Nn for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:53:15 -0400 Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II5pT-0004uo-6D for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:53:15 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A300047C1F; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10286-03; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF2E47CE2; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46B751F7.1000306@internet2.edu> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:53:11 -0400 From: Matthew J Zekauskas User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kaynam Hedayat X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Cc: Matt Zekauskas , IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] very drafty IANA section for twamp X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Here is my initial public cut on the text for TWAMP. I still have some questions, and perhaps working group members have an opinion (or better way to state some of the text). If it does not already do so, perhaps we should say somewhere "TWAMP-Control" is an update of OWAMP-Control for two-way measurements, rather than just calling it "TWAMP-Control". I think it might even say that somewhere... [this is a question from me] x == 8 in the current draft: --=== begin text ===-- x. IANA Considerations IANA has allocated a well-known TCP port number (861) for the OWAMP-Control part of the OWAMP [RFC4656] protocol which also applies to the TWAMP-Control part of the TWAMP protocol. Since TWAMP adds an additional OWAMP-Control command to the OWAMP-Control specification, and describes behavior when this control command is used, we will create an IANA registry for this field. The field is not explicitly named in [RFC4656] but is called out for each command. x.1 Registry Specification IANA will create an OWAMP-Control Command registry. OWAMP-Control commands are specified by the first octet in OWAMP-Control messages as shown in section 3.4 of [RFC4656], and modified by this document. Thus this registry may contain sixteen possible values. x.2 Registry Management Because the registry may only contain sixteen values, and because OWAMP and TWAMP are IETF protocols, this registry must only be updated by "IETF Consensus" as specified in [RFC2434] -- an RFC documenting the use that is approved by the IESG. We expect that new values will be assigned as monotonically increasing integers in the range [0-15], unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. x.3 Experimental Numbers [RFC3692] recommends allocating an appropriate number of values for experimentation and testing. It is not clear to the authors exactly how many might be useful in this space, nor if it would be useful that they were easily distinguishable or at the "high end" of the number range. Two might be useful, say one for session control, and one for session fetch. On the other hand, a single number would allow for unlimited extension, because the format of the rest of the message could be tailored, with allocation of other numbers done once usefulness has been proven. Thus, this document will allocate one number, the next sequential number 6, as designated for experimentation and testing. x.4 Initial Registry Contents OWAMP-Control Command Registry Value Description Semantics Definition 0 Reserved 1 Request-Session RFC4656, Section 3.5 2 Start-Sessions RFC4656, Section 3.7 3 Stop-Sessions RFC4656, Section 3.8 4 Fetch-Session RFC4656, Section 3.9 5 Request-TW-Session this document, Section 3.5 6 Experimentation undefined, see Section x.3. --=== end text ===-- New Normative Reference: Guidelines for IANA Considerations, RFC 2434/BCP 26 New Informative Reference: Assigning Experimental and Testing Numbers Considered Useful, RFC 3692/BCP 82 Other questions and issues: * should we have 0 as reserved? * any need to mention "network byte order" here in this document? * is the case of the headings consistent with the rest of the document? * does the initial para need a revision? it is carried over from the current draft. * we should probably write an Errata request for 4656 that points to this document, so there is a forward reference. --Matt _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 06 18:35:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIBAW-0004Za-HI; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:35:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIBAV-0004ZN-HR for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:35:19 -0400 Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIBAV-0004ld-7f for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:35:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D0A47C95; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 18:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06477-07; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 18:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF2C47BDC; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 18:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46B7A215.7050902@internet2.edu> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:35:01 -0600 From: "Jeff W. Boote" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kaynam Hedayat References: <46B751F7.1000306@internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <46B751F7.1000306@internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: Matthew J Zekauskas , IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] TWAMP protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org I have a couple of high-level questions/suggestions for this protocol. (I'm sorry I have not looked at this until now - I realize this could be pretty late in the process and I understand these suggestions could get the same amount of attention I have given twamp up till now. ;) ) 1) Why not use the extension mechanism built into OWAMP to indicate the additional/different functionality? (The 'Modes' word of the server greeting.) Currently, there is no way for a twamp or owamp client to determine the difference between an owamp and twamp server until it actually requests a test. This is after the authentication phase. If this protocol is going to piggy-back on the same port number, I think it should be a more cooperative citizen. The owamp protocol allowed for an extension mechanism, I think it should be used for this. I think it would also make the additional IANA registry unneeded. (An errata to the owamp spec would be good to include the additional mode bits used.) 2) I'm a bit concerned with the fact that the request-session does not indicate anything about the schedule at all. Minimally, as someone running a server, I would want a way to indicate how much traffic I was willing to accept. There does not seem to be any way for the server to decide how intensive of a test to allow. If nothing else, the schedule could be used to indicate a MAX rate that the client promises not to exceed. (Obviously, it could lie and attempt to use more. But, it would also be possible for the reflector to report the abuse and shut down that socket.) jeff _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From rademachersbunp@idamedical.com Mon Aug 06 23:22:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIFeS-0003bq-E5 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:22:32 -0400 Received: from [201.255.67.93] (helo=[201.255.67.93]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIFeR-0001yh-L1 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:22:32 -0400 Received: from Ponita ([112.151.14.110]:13808 "EHLO Ponita" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by 201-255-113-88.mrse.com.ar with ESMTP id S22ZPGWNNJELKNDL (ORCPT ); Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:22:41 -0300 Message-ID: <000b01c7d8a2$30de3900$5871ffc9@Ponita> From: "Ezana rademacher" To: Subject: 391322 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:22:31 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7D889.0B910100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7D889.0B910100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 025204E8 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7D889.0B910100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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http://weoplex.com/ ------------A98888F4DA9888-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 07 10:15:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIPq3-0001ic-9W; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:15:11 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIPpv-0001gv-Ie; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:15:03 -0400 Received: from ns4.neustar.com ([156.154.24.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIPpv-0007aF-4t; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:15:03 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148042AC6B; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 14:15:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IIPpu-0003y4-Po; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:15:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:15:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : A One-Way Packet Duplication Metric for IPPM Author(s) : H. Uijterwaal Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2007-8-7 When a packet is sent from one host to the other, one normally expects that exactly one copy of the packet that was sent arrives at the destination. It is, however, possible that a packet is either lost or that multiple copies arrive. In earlier work, the IPPM group defined a metric for packet loss. This metric quantifies the case where a packet that is sent, never arrives at its destination. In this memo, a metric for the opposite case is defined: a packet is sent, but multiple copies arrive. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-8-7094204.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-8-7094204.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --NextPart-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 07 13:21:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IISjr-0004MD-5C; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:20:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IISjn-0004M4-ED for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:20:57 -0400 Received: from relay.jaalam.net ([209.139.228.35]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IISjl-0004cS-W8 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:20:55 -0400 Received: from jsrvr8.jaalam.net ([172.16.128.105]) by relay.jaalam.net (SMSSMTP 4.1.0.19) with SMTP id M2007080710204905305 for ; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:20:49 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:20:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04 Thread-Index: AcfR+aF6KMNSCTIGToOvmZfSb+9n9gHGvQJQ References: From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Cc: Subject: [ippm] comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Al - some comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04 Alan Clark's comments from last week are very relevant - in particular w.r.t. appropriate statement of assumptions related to implicit models and methodologies. In addition (and somewhat redundantly since I had already written the notes): General: o of course, choice of PDV and IPDV as relevant implementations seems valid - however, there are implicit assumptions that should be made more explicit. E.g. the values for reference time embody particular choices related to methodology and model: o PDV assumes minimum delay knowable and difference optimally significant (transmission distribution is not relevant) o IPDV assumes, or is typical within the context of, periodic transmission (or some context wherein packet separation is significant) and that the regularity of the period represents an optimal reference (and propagation time is not specifically relevant) Of course these descriptions are intended to be considerably more generic but in doing so they look past the obvious implementations (which is part of the intention of this draft, yes?). Some of the descriptions of RFC 3933 include references to other timing distributions (e.g. Poisson). The choices of minimum and delta are specific and motivated (by application requirements). o references to "optimizing de-jitter buffer" are a relevant example of application design references that motivate the choice of jitter definition - is that related to the (anticipated) mandate of PMOL/APM? o There should be more discussion of the typical implementation requirements - there is only passing mention of: o optional statistical approaches - holding and post-processing all data in a measurement interval - not holding (much) data and maintaining running measures - holding a sliding window of data and maintaining sliding measures o memory requirements (based on each case above) o implications for reference values (based on each case above) - e.g. D(min) as running value for whole set or absolute for windowed set o issues and complication possible in various instances of each case - e.g. quantiles are not available as running measure ** many of these issues may be adequately addressed by simply emphasizing the MAPDV2/G.1020 document. There is some mention of these issues in Appendix 13. o "quick variation" seems an unfortunate turn of phrase o however, it has been defined as being on the order of inter-packet separation so that seems adequate o an alternative might be "short timescale variation" o in the definition of IPDV, why is there no consideration of the practical context wherein packet arrival times are known but not transmission times for the periodic case. Is that to suggest that there is no meaningful implementation of IPDV without transmission times? =20 o in Sec. 8.1 referring to Measurement Stream Characteristics, there should be some description of the impact of sampling methodology for the cases wherein not all the packet D(i) are sampled. This should include some suggestion for methodology references. o for example:=20 The implication of short-range dependency on delay variation measurement Qiong Li; Mills, D.L. Network Computing and Applications, 2003 Volume , Issue , 16-18 April 2003 Page(s): 374 - 380 o for example Fisher Information of Sampled Packets: an Application to Flow Size Estimation Bruno Ribeiro, University of Masachusetts at Amherst; Don Towsley, University of Masachusetts at Amherst; Tao Ye, Sprint Advanced Technology Laboratories; Jean Bolot, Sprint Advanced Technology Laboratories o in Sec. 8.3 Test Duration, some references to stability of networks would be useful. Although changes are possible on almost any time scale, there are some reasonable rules of thumb to be considered. Typical networks are stable on the order of minutes. However there are also long timescale variations associated with daily cycles. o for example On the Constancy of Internet Path Properties.=20 Yin Zhang, Nick Duffield, Vern Paxson, and Scott Shenker -- AT&T Labs Research, Florham Park NJ; AT&T Center for Internet Research at ICSI, Berkeley CA. o in Sec. 8.5, there is reference to distinguishing long delays from loss - as mentioned elsewhere, a reasonable threshold should be applied. Naturally, discards should be accounted for distinct from loss. o in Appendix 12, also include various forms of equipment and configuration dysfunction as a separate cause. For example, consider re-transmission effects in WiFi or slow-path processing in a router that has been sub-optimally employed for edge filtering. o in Appendix 13, consider including code fragments for the described method. This may be a special case of temporal composition (associating sets of data segmented intervals from a single testing period). -- Loki=20 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 07 14:25:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IITkR-0003xY-Bv; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:25:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IITkQ-0003xR-8W for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:25:38 -0400 Received: from mail121.messagelabs.com ([216.82.241.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IITkP-0006KP-33 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:25:38 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-9.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1186511135!18673478!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.11; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.128.149] Received: (qmail 7908 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2007 18:25:36 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp9.sbc.com (HELO flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com) (144.160.128.149) by server-9.tower-121.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 7 Aug 2007 18:25:36 -0000 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l77IPZW2012727 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:25:35 -0700 Received: from flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (flph023.ffdc.sbc.com [150.234.117.36]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l77IPWuH012703 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:25:32 -0700 Received: from ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l77IPVSj030951 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:25:31 -0700 Received: from maillennium.att.com (mailgw1.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l77IPJj4030547 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:25:27 -0700 Message-Id: <200708071825.l77IPJj4030547@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (acmt.mt.att.com[135.16.251.73](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20070807182519gw10010geue>; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 18:25:19 +0000 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:24:30 -0400 To: "Loki Jorgenson" , From: Al Morton Subject: comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 [was: [ippm] comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04] In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org At 01:20 PM 8/7/2007, Loki Jorgenson wrote: >Al - some comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04 Thanks, I'll catch-up with all the comments shortly. One clarification and a question: These are actually comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03. Since most of your comments sought enhancements or improvements to the draft, I suspect that your answer to the question "whether this should be a WG item or not" is "yes", but could you give the answer yourself? thanks, Al _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 07 14:47:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIU5A-0000dA-UL; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:47:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIU5A-0000b3-16 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:47:04 -0400 Received: from relay.jaalam.net ([209.139.228.35]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIU58-0006rG-MO for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:47:04 -0400 Received: from jsrvr8.jaalam.net ([172.16.128.105]) by relay.jaalam.net (SMSSMTP 4.1.0.19) with SMTP id M2007080711470005744 for ; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:47:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 [was: [ippm] comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04] Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:47:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200708071825.l77IPJU6014134@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 [was: [ippm] comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04] Thread-Index: AcfZIFsicwuzw+HfTLWLkl/spqEIAgAAjWfw References: <200708071825.l77IPJU6014134@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: "Al Morton" , X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Yes, you are correct - the comments apply to draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 - I had several email drafts up regarding IETF comments and mis-labelled that one. Re: My answer is "probably" - I will correct my post to the list. Loki Jorgenson Apparent Networks t 604 433 2333 ext 105 m 604 250-4642 -----Original Message----- From: Al Morton [mailto:acmorton@att.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:25 AM To: Loki Jorgenson; ippm@ietf.org Subject: comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 [was: [ippm] comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04] At 01:20 PM 8/7/2007, Loki Jorgenson wrote: >Al - some comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04 Thanks, I'll catch-up with all the comments shortly. One clarification and a question: These are actually comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03. Since most of your comments sought enhancements or improvements to the draft, I suspect that your answer to the question "whether this should be a WG item or not" is "yes", but could you give the answer yourself? thanks, Al _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 07 14:50:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIU7z-0004LX-SN; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:49:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIU7y-0004Ke-Fw for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:49:58 -0400 Received: from relay.jaalam.net ([209.139.228.35]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIU7x-0006wG-9I for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:49:58 -0400 Received: from jsrvr8.jaalam.net ([172.16.128.105]) by relay.jaalam.net (SMSSMTP 4.1.0.19) with SMTP id M2007080711495505753 for ; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:49:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:49:55 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: correction - previous comments were to draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 Thread-Index: AcfZI78OzhxVSWYdQp+OvUM78v/qxw== From: "Loki Jorgenson" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: Subject: [ippm] correction - previous comments were to draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1107182044==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1107182044== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7D923.BF244A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7D923.BF244A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ... I mixed up the email drafts and mis-labeled. Comments on compagg coming up shortly. =20 And, to address the overarching question - "yes", this draft should be a WG item (although whether it would be better in PMOL or IPPM I haven't spoken to yet - pending clarification of a prospective PMOL charter). -- Loki =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7D923.BF244A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
... I = mixed up the=20 email drafts and mis-labeled.  Comments on compagg coming up=20 shortly.
 
And, = to address the=20 overarching question -  "yes", this draft should be a WG item = (although=20 whether it would be better in PMOL or IPPM I haven't spoken to yet - = pending=20 clarification of a prospective PMOL charter).

-- Loki

 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C7D923.BF244A60-- --===============1107182044== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --===============1107182044==-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 07 15:31:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIUlf-0007xG-ND; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:30:59 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIFy7-0005rr-O7 for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:42:52 -0400 Received: from p02c11o141.mxlogic.net ([208.65.144.74]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIFy7-0005Yn-60 for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:42:51 -0400 Received: from unknown [208.61.208.100] (EHLO EXV1.corp.adtran.com) by p02c11o141.mxlogic.net (mxl_mta-5.1.0-1) with ESMTP id a3ae7b64.2040785840.97175.00-002.p02c11o141.mxlogic.net (envelope-from ); Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:42:50 -0600 (MDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:42:49 -0500 Message-ID: <8F242B230AD6474C8E7815DE0B4982D7070592B5@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: TWAMP Remote Session-Sender Initiation Thread-Index: AcfYpQX6EplC6g6TS2e6rjP+8PdVYA== From: "WALT STEVERSON" To: X-Spam: [F=0.0100000000; S=0.010(2007071801); SS=0.500] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [208.61.208.100] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5df1f98f3253c63b673ea560243aa58f X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:30:58 -0400 Cc: Subject: [ippm] TWAMP Remote Session-Sender Initiation X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0461229184==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0461229184== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7D8A5.0654E774" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7D8A5.0654E774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would there be any interest in defining a way for a remote client to request that a Session-Sender initiate a test session to a Session-Reflector and then gather the results of that test? Right now a Control-Client can effectively negotiate the configuration and starting of a Session-Reflector. Why not allow a Control-Client to also negotiate the configuration and starting of a Session-Sender? Two (or more) test endpoints could be placed in a network and a central agent could open TWAMP-Control connections to both endpoints, configure one as the Session-Sender, and the other as the Session-Reflector. This might involve modification to the TWAMP Request-TW-Session message behavior (keying off the Conf-Sender/Conf-Receiver fields?) or maybe a completely new message type. When a test completes the central agent would probably want to gather the results. This might mean reinstating the Fetch-Session and Fetch-Ack messages in the TWAMP-Control protocol so that all the results that are collected by the Session-Sender could be sent back to the central agent for further processing. Of course that would require the OWAMP Fetch-Ack message format to be extended to include Sender Timestamp, Sender Error Estimate, and Sender Sequence Number information in each packet record. Expanded Role Diagram: +----------------+ +-------------------+ | Session-Sender |<--TWAMP-Test-->| Session-Reflector | +----------------+ +-------------------+=20 ^ ^ | | | |=20 v v +----------------+ +----------------+ | Control-Server | | Control-Server |=20 +----------------+ +----------------+ ^ ^ ^ | | | | | | | +--TWAMP-Control--+ +-TWAMP-Control-+=20 | | | | | | TWAMP-Control | | | | | | | | v v v +--------------+ +----------------+=20 | Fetch-Client | | Control-Client | +--------------+ +----------------+ Collapsed Role Diagram: +----------------+ +-------------------+ | Session-Sender |<--TWAMP-Test-->| Session-Reflector | | Control-Server | | Control-Server | +----------------+ +-------------------+=20 ^ ^ | | | |=20 TWAMP-Control | | | | | | +------ TWAMP-Control -------+ | | v v +----------------+ | Control-Client | | Fetch-Client | +----------------+ This behavior could be made purely optional if it used the existing TWAMP Request-TW-Session message and any Control-Server that did not support this functionality could just refuse the session in its Accept-Session message (accept field =3D=3D 3, "Some aspect of request = is not supported").=20 The argument could be made that it is possible to setup an equivalent remote bidirectional test with OWAMP using simultaneous one-way test tests so why should TWAMP be expanded to do it too? In the abstract section of the TWAMP draft it says that OWAMP does not accommodate round-trip or two-way measurements. Also, the Reflector could still be a TWAMP Light reflector and then the burden of implementing TWAMP-Control protocol resides in the endpoint that serves as the Session-Sender (see diagram below). =20 TWAMP Light Diagram: +----------------+ +-------------------+ | Session-Sender |<--TWAMP-Test-->| Session-Reflector | | Control-Server | | | +----------------+ +-------------------+=20 ^ ^ | | TWAMP-Control | | | | | | +-----------------------------+ | | v v +----------------+ | Control-Client | | Fetch-Client | +----------------+ Something similar could also be accomplished with SNMP MIBs for configuring TWAMP Session-Senders and for gathering the resulting test measurements. However, this is so similar to the existing OWAMP-Control behavior (ie. Fetch-Session, Fetch-Ack, Request-Session) that, in my opinion, it seems more natural to extend the TWAMP-Control protocol to support this functionality. =20 Regards, Walt Steverson =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7D8A5.0654E774 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Would there be any interest in defining a way = for a remote client to request that a Session-Sender initiate a test session = to a Session-Reflector and then gather the results of that = test?  Right now a Control-Client can effectively negotiate the configuration and = starting of a Session-Reflector.  Why not allow a Control-Client to = also negotiate the configuration and starting of a = Session-Sender?  Two (or more) test endpoints could be placed in a network and a central = agent could open TWAMP-Control connections to both endpoints, configure one as the Session-Sender, and the other as the Session-Reflector.  This = might involve modification to the TWAMP Request-TW-Session message behavior = (keying off the Conf-Sender/Conf-Receiver fields?) or maybe a completely new = message type.  When a test completes the central agent would = probably want to gather the results.  This might mean reinstating the Fetch-Session and Fetch-Ack messages in the TWAMP-Control protocol = so that all the results that are collected by the Session-Sender could be sent = back to the central agent for further processing.  Of course that = would require the OWAMP Fetch-Ack message format to be extended to include = Sender Timestamp, Sender Error Estimate, and Sender Sequence Number information = in each packet record.

Expanded Role Diagram:


  +----------------+         &= nbsp;      +-------------------+
  | Session-Sender |<--TWAMP-Test-->| Session-Reflector |
  +----------------+         &= nbsp;      +-------------------+
          ^  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       ^
          |  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       |
          |  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       |
          v  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       v
  +----------------+         &= nbsp;       +----------------+
  | Control-Server |            =      | Control-Server |
  = +----------------+         &= nbsp;       +----------------+
        ^  ^  = ;            =             &= nbsp;         ^
        |  |  = ;            =             &= nbsp;         |
        |  |  = ;            =             &= nbsp;         |
        |  +--TWAMP-Con= trol--+  +-TWAMP-Control-+
        |    =             &= nbsp;   |  |
        |    =             &= nbsp;   |  |
  = TWAMP-Control              |  |
        |    =             &= nbsp;   |  |
        |    =             &= nbsp;   |  |
        v    =             &= nbsp;   v  v
  +--------------+     +----------------+
  | Fetch-Client |     | = Control-Client |
  +--------------+     +----------------+

Collapsed Role = Diagram:


  +----------------+         &= nbsp;      +-------------------+
  | Session-Sender |<--TWAMP-Test-->| Session-Reflector |
  | Control-Server = |            =     | Control-Server    |
  +----------------+         &= nbsp;      +-------------------+
          ^  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       ^
          |  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       |
          |  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       |
    = TWAMP-Control          =                   |=

          | =             &= nbsp;                    |
          |  =             &= nbsp;                   |
          |  =    +------ TWAMP-Control -------+
          |  =    |
          v =     v
  +----------------+

  | Control-Client |
  | Fetch-Client   |
  +----------------+

This behavior could be made purely optional = if it used the existing TWAMP Request-TW-Session message and any = Control-Server that did not support this functionality could just refuse the session = in its Accept-Session message (accept field =3D=3D 3, “Some aspect of = request is not supported”).

The argument could be made that it is = possible to setup an equivalent remote bidirectional test with OWAMP using = simultaneous one-way test tests so why should TWAMP be expanded to do it too?  = In the abstract section of the TWAMP draft it says that OWAMP does not accommodate = round-trip or two-way measurements.  Also, the Reflector could still be a = TWAMP Light reflector and then the burden of implementing TWAMP-Control protocol = resides in the endpoint that serves as the Session-Sender (see diagram = below).

 

TWAMP Light = Diagram:


  +----------------+         &= nbsp;      +-------------------+
  | Session-Sender |<--TWAMP-Test-->| Session-Reflector |
  | Control-Server = |            =     | =             &= nbsp;     |
  +----------------+         &= nbsp;      +-------------------+
          ^  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        ^
          |  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        |

    = TWAMP-Control          =             &= nbsp;      |

          | =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         |
          |  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        |
          |  =    +-----------------------------+
          |  =    |
          v =     v
  +----------------+

  | Control-Client |
  | Fetch-Client   |
  +----------------+

Something similar could also be accomplished = with SNMP MIBs for configuring TWAMP Session-Senders and for gathering the = resulting test measurements.  However, this is so similar to the existing = OWAMP-Control behavior (ie. Fetch-Session, Fetch-Ack, Request-Session) that, in my = opinion, it seems more natural to extend the TWAMP-Control protocol to support this functionality.

 

Regards,
Walt Steverson

 

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IG4NCjAwMDAwMTMyMjQgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDAxMzM1NiAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDE2ODUxIDAw MDAwIG4NCnRyYWlsZXINCjw8L1NpemUgMjgvRW5jcnlwdCAyOSAwIFI+Pg0Kc3RhcnR4cmVmDQox MTYNCiUlRU9GDQo= ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7DB59.487DBA40-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 10 13:21:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJY9W-0005Eq-Fr; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:19:58 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJY9U-0005Ee-BS for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:19:56 -0400 Received: from postboy.ripe.net ([193.0.19.3]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJY9T-0000qe-WE for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:19:56 -0400 Received: by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 2728D6A2BB; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:19:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B659E6A22E for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:19:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987CD2F583; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:19:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46BC7C94.6010200@ripe.net> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:56:20 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henk Uijterwaal References: <46AED750.2010807@ripe.net> In-Reply-To: <46AED750.2010807@ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.113342 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: d7ec09ffcfc1910879e087419b4f88f1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Re: Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement draft X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org IPPM group, > At the last couple of meetings, we have been discussing: > > Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement > draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 > > During the Chicago meeting, about 2 dozen of people indicated that they > think this draft should become a working group item, while nobody thought > the opposite. > > If you were amongst the people expressing interest, please confirm this > by email. If you were not in Chicago, or if you disagree, please let us > know as well. > > Please respond before the 14th of August. 6 people responded positively to this question. If you have any opinions on this, please respond before Tuesday. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. 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http://uukcf.urivent.com/?623517606426 ------------C67ACDA525094D-- From furtadocksrz@hkiba.org.hk Sun Aug 12 13:33:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKHJO-0000Ds-9k for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:33:10 -0400 Received: from [190.1.51.192] (helo=cpe-51-192.bvconline.com.ar) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKHJF-0004h1-SC for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:33:09 -0400 Received: from ivana-uvql1t8c5 ([189.115.141.57]) by cpe-51-192.bvconline.com.ar (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id B3621C1DEF9E37; Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:33:17 -0300 Message-ID: <000e01c7dd06$d15417c0$c03301be@ivanauvql1t8c5> From: "jerame furtado" To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Cash-flow-ippm-archive Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:32:55 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7DCED.AC06DFC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a1852b4f554b02e7e4548cc7928acc1f ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7DCED.AC06DFC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7DCED.AC06DFC0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7DCED.AC06DFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7DCED.AC06DFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
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1IKSnx-0002sk-Uf; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:49:31 -0400 Message-ID: <15e901c7dd39$e19744d0$4d2e1524@dalcottogasu> From: "Gale Sims" To: "Theda Gilbert" Cc: "India Thompson" , "Tawanna" , "Inocencia" , "Loreen Stevens" , "Codi Richardson" , "Zandra Schmidt" Subject: Still not the one Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:38:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_836_D964_583479FB.B80DE6C2" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f1405b5eaa25d745f8c52e3273d3af78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_836_D964_583479FB.B80DE6C2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_E7E_0524_681227BE.B9B5BB8E" ------=_NextPart_E7E_0524_681227BE.B9B5BB8E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable slimy Whether self this was some freak of nature (an albino, perhaps!), I= do not feline know, fit but certain it is that I Nearby cup in upheld sa= ck the forest rises the tore smoke of many fires, and the thudding of the= axes is heard as the par It seems superfluous tug to mention that these = people, like all cowards, alert are run harbor absolutely devoid of pity. Speaking of the devices by which we made life important easier in laugh w= ith the woods reminds me of a weigh process I invented He walked about fo= r table a long unit time, now disappearing and now reappearing, and measu= re finally only he came back. "Mai man ringuichi? taste untidy (Where poi= nt smiling are you going?) It mute was large past two o'clock and tease t= he bucket day was windy, dull, and cold, with more than twenty degrees Fa= hrenh Let owner the Church stop pick its work of along hypnotizing the masses, = and government deceiving children even for the briefest The attitude of l= and the before ruling classes to disarm the laborers is that guide of a m= an who has felled his adversary to The horse gave a tug, then another, bu= t failed to clear circle himself and settled poorly line down old-fashion= ed again as if conside "Firmly relying upon tore the unusual certain and = spread universal triumph of rely the sentiments contained in this declara= ti Foreign seek critics started from the same premises, but their discuss= ions continue move of my monkey book were somewhat diffe hover Starting a= t sunrise, we paddled and poled till noon, trade when blonde we rested an= d ate quality hardtack, roast allig In single file the whole steep party retreated through the forest to the = mouth of through comb the creek delicious where the cano CHRISTIANITY MIS= UNDERSTOOD disgust answer tight wander BY MEN OF SCIENCE. kill There cam= e a time when the supply of roots in the contain nearest year Indian chac= ra gave out and thumb we turned our a One day while we were sold packing a load of rubber back to camp we came = tip melt across purpose an ant-eater shambling al 'There is no road here. froze There prison spend may right be farther on,= ' he said, getting into the sledge. 'Now, brother, shelf this rod won't = do!' Nikita admonished knowledge geriatric him. 'Now once more!' All the = men and women driven we copper meet pontal are strong and healthy, for al= though once in attraction the hands of the medicine We told her we were = river from Barranca, vessel bound sold slung for the Cangaimi. I am turn reminded of place an incident which took place seldom when I wa= s with cause the Antipas. One morning, there was br band By apple this ti= me the shed nose of our dugout had grounded on the sand. boot Cautiously = we landed on the tip of the It was suck already fact growing rough dark. = The snow-storm raspy had not increased but had also not subsided. grip pa= rt I catch am alone, as over you see me, she said. ------=_NextPart_E7E_0524_681227BE.B9B5BB8E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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slimy Whether self this was some freak of nature = (an albino, perhaps!), I do not feline know, fit but certain it is that I= Nearby cup in upheld sack the forest rises the tore smoke of many fires,= and the thudding of the axes is heard as the par It seems superfluous tu= g to mention that these people, like all cowards, alert are run harbor ab= solutely devoid of pity.
 
Speaking of the devices by which we made life imp= ortant easier in laugh with the woods reminds me of a weigh process I inv= ented He walked about for table a long unit time, now disappearing and no= w reappearing, and measure finally only he came back. "Mai man ringu= ichi? taste untidy (Where point smiling are you going?) It mute was = large past two o'clock and tease the bucket day was windy, dull, and cold= , with more than twenty degrees Fahrenh  
Let owner the Church stop pick its work of along = hypnotizing the masses, and government deceiving children even for the br= iefest The attitude of land the before ruling classes to disarm the labor= ers is that guide of a man who has felled his adversary to The horse gave= a tug, then another, but failed to clear circle himself and settled poor= ly line down old-fashioned again as if conside "Firmly relying upon tore = the unusual certain and spread universal triumph of rely the sentiments c= ontained in this declarati Foreign seek critics started from the same pre= mises, but their discussions continue move of my monkey book were somewha= t diffe hover Starting at sunrise, we paddled and poled till noon, trade = when blonde we rested and ate quality hardtack, roast allig
In single file the whole steep party retreated th= rough the forest to the mouth of through comb the creek delicious where t= he cano CHRISTIANITY MISUNDERSTOOD disgust answer tight wander BY MEN OF = SCIENCE.  kill There came a time when the supply of roots in th= e contain nearest year Indian chacra gave out and thumb we turned our a
 
One day while we were sold packing a load of rubb= er back to camp we came tip melt across purpose an ant-eater shambling al=
'There is no road here. froze There prison spend = may right be farther on,' he said, getting into the sledge.  'N= ow, brother, shelf this rod won't do!' Nikita admonished knowledge geriat= ric him. 'Now once more!' All the men and women driven we copper meet pon= tal are strong and healthy, for although once in attraction the hands of = the medicine  We told her we were river from Barranca, vessel b= ound sold slung for the Cangaimi.
I am turn reminded of place an incident which too= k place seldom when I was with cause the Antipas. One morning, there was = br band By apple this time the shed nose of our dugout had grounded on th= e sand. boot Cautiously we landed on the tip of the It was suck already f= act growing rough dark. The snow-storm raspy had not increased but had al= so not subsided. grip part I catch am alone, as over you see me, she said.
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Aug 2007 05:35:29 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 8A5BA23EFC; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:35:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2216923EEC for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:35:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE73D2F583; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:35:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46C025DA.1040706@ripe.net> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:35:22 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF IPPM WG , tt-wg@ripe.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_50 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: U 0.500000 / -1.8 X-RIPE-Signature: c1c4903388d2ce0614bee44346dc4671 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f Cc: Subject: [ippm] [Fwd: [IMRG] CFP: PAM 2008] X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org FYI and sorry for duplicate copies. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [IMRG] CFP: PAM 2008 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:23:39 -0400 From: Mark Claypool To: imrg@irtf.org ********************* CALL FOR PAPERS ******************** Passive & Active Measurement Conference (PAM 2008) Cleveland, Ohio, USA April 29th-30th, 2008 http://pam2008.cs.wpi.edu/ ********************************************************** Important Dates --------------- Paper Registration: October 14th, 2007 Paper Submission: October 21st, 2007 Author Notification: December 22nd, 2007 Camera Ready: February 3rd, 2008 Conference Information ---------------------- The ninth Passive and Active Measurement conference will be held April 29-30th, 2008 in Cleveland, Ohio, USA. This event focuses on research and practical applications of network measurement and analysis techniques. The conference's goal is to provide a forum for current work in its early stages. Original papers are invited from the research and operations communities on topics including, but not limited to: * Active Network Measurements * Passive Network Measurements * Performance Metrics * Traffic Statistics * Measurement Visualization * New Measurement Approaches & Techniques * Deployment of Measurement Infrastructure * New Measurement Initiatives * Applications of Network Measurements * Network Measurements and Security * Network Troubleshooting using Measurements * Reproduce (or Refute) Previous Measurement Results PAM values contributions that are broader than experimental papers. Data and tool release are seen as first-class contributions and preference will be given in that direction. In particular, releasing measurement data allows for better science to be conducted in the field of network measurement. Therefore, an award will be given at PAM 2008 for the best paper based on a new dataset that the authors are releasing for community use in subsequent research. To qualify, a paper must significantly utilize a dataset that has been collected for the work presented in the paper. Further, the dataset must be freely available to any researcher; wireless data sets may, for instance, be published through CRAWDAD. Novel datasets are especially encouraged. The awarded paper will be chosen from the set of qualifying papers accepted for the conference by a committee made up of a subset of the program and steering committees. Conference Web Page ------------------- http://pam2008.cs.wpi.edu/ http://www.pamconf.org/ Submission Information ---------------------- To ensure PAM 2008 is fresh and interesting, we are soliciting papers, submitted in the LNCS format, that do not exceed 10 pages. No additional space will be given once a paper has been accepted. Authors should flag papers they wish to be considered for the best paper based on a new dataset award with a footnote on the first page of the paper. The proceedings of past PAM conferences were published in Springer LNCS series, and we have a preliminary indication from Springer that this will continue for PAM 2008 (pending the formal agreement). Authors are, as always, asked to refrain from submitting papers submitted to PAM to other venues during the reviewing period. Organization Committee --------------------------- Michael Rabinovich Case Western Reserve University General Chair Mark Claypool Worcester Polytechnic Institute Program Chair Steve Uhlig Delft University of Technology Publication Chair Technical Program Committee --------------------------- Mark Allman ICSI Grenville Armitage Swinburne University of Technology Surendar Chandra Notre Dame Jae Chung Airvana Wu-Chang Feng Portland State University Wu-Chi Feng Portland State University P=E5l Halvorsen University of Oslo Manish Jain Telchemy Kevin Jeffay University of North Carolina Simon Leinen Switch Kang Li University of Georgia Ibrahim Matta Boston University Ketan Mayer-Patel University of North Carolina Anees Shaikh IBM Research Coleen Shannon CAIDA Augustin Soule Thomson Research Peter Steenkiste Carnegie Mellon University Ooi Wei Tsang National University of Singapore Steve Uhlig Delft University of Technology Carey Williamson University of Calgary Craig Wills Worcester Polytechnic Institute Huahui Wu Google Michael Zink University of Massachusetts Steering Committee ------------------- Mark Allman ICSI Nevil Brownlee University of Auckland Mark Claypool Worcester Polytechnic Institute Ian Graham Endace Konstantina Papagiannaki Intel Research Pittsburgh Michael Rabinovich Case Western Reserve University Matthew Roughan University of Adelaide Steve Uhlig Delft University of Technology _______________________________________________ IMRG mailing list IMRG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imrg --=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.= net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~he= nk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. 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http://wpezkuv.trdddhj.cn/?174462606426 ------------BF674B82136EF6-- From yqhkweoodbnsxecbcte@unionnyc.com Mon Aug 13 08:20:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKYu7-00006N-1l for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:20:15 -0400 Received: from [122.164.49.243] (helo=ABTS-TN-dynamic-243.49.164.122.airtelbroadband.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKYu3-0003Cz-Jt for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:20:15 -0400 Received: from nnvhz ([167.202.98.42]) by ABTS-TN-dynamic-243.49.164.122.airtelbroadband.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:50:28 +0530 Message-ID: <46C04C8C.2020103@unionnyc.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:50:28 +0530 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: invitation Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020408010304070706030804" X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 75ac735ede4d089f7192d230671d536e --------------020408010304070706030804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------020408010304070706030804 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="invitation.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="invitation.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMKJeLjz9MKMSAwIG9iaiAKPDwKL1BhZ2VzIDIgMCBSCi9UeXBlIC9DYXRhbG9nCj4+ CmVuZG9iaiAKMiAwIG9iaiAKPDwKL0tpZHMgWzMgMCBSXQovQ291bnQgMQovVHlwZSAvUGFnZXMK Pj4KZW5kb2JqIAozIDAgb2JqIAo8PAovQ3JvcEJveCBbMCAwIDI5NyAyMTFdCi9QYXJlbnQgMiAw IFIKL1RodW1iIDQgMCBSCi9NZWRpYUJveCBbMCAwIDI5NyAyMTFdCi9SZXNvdXJjZXMgCjw8Ci9Y T2JqZWN0IAo8PAovSW0wIDUgMCBSCj4+Ci9Gb250IAo8PAovRjAgNiAwIFIKPj4KL1Byb2NTZXQg NyAwIFIKPj4KL0NvbnRlbnRzIDggMCBSCi9UeXBlIC9QYWdlCj4+CmVuZG9iaiAKOCAwIG9iaiAK PDwKL0xlbmd0aCAzMQo+PgpzdHJlYW0KmWKmwSaUFuHW/CiSky8bkQGo8iAp6qCI+yjsy8Fd7Qpl 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(helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKaBm-0002Zx-7a for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:42:34 -0400 Received: from mail.windriver.com ([147.11.1.11] helo=mail.wrs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKaBk-0005Hb-Fn for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:42:34 -0400 Received: from ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com (ala-mail03 [147.11.57.144]) by mail.wrs.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l7DDgVKJ009704 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ala-mail02.corp.ad.wrs.com ([147.11.57.56]) by ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:42:31 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:42:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 Thread-Index: AcfcMM4bWgi3yhGzQwafPIoLLWZf8wBflOsA References: From: "Konish Jr., Stephen" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2007 13:42:31.0235 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBD8D930:01C7DDAF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: Subject: [ippm] RE: draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi Henk, I read the draft and I find it very informative. Al - Nice job. =20 Question: In section 6.2.2 should the paragraph reference Figure 5 instead of Figure 3? Regards, Steve Konish Message: 1 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:56:20 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal Subject: [ippm] Re: Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement draft To: Henk Uijterwaal Cc: IETF IPPM WG Message-ID: <46BC7C94.6010200@ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed IPPM group, > At the last couple of meetings, we have been discussing: >=20 > Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement > draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 >=20 > During the Chicago meeting, about 2 dozen of people indicated that=20 > they think this draft should become a working group item, while nobody > thought the opposite. >=20 > If you were amongst the people expressing interest, please confirm=20 > this by email. If you were not in Chicago, or if you disagree, please > let us know as well. >=20 > Please respond before the 14th of August. 6 people responded positively to this question. If you have any opinions on this, please respond before Tuesday. Henk _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From audun@hannahandherscissors.com Mon Aug 13 13:08:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKdOe-0006YD-AP for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:08:04 -0400 Received: from s83-16-5.sfi.paltel.net ([83.244.16.5]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKdOZ-0005FL-V9 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:08:04 -0400 Received: from RASHAD1 ([187.133.144.163]:11875 "EHLO RASHAD1" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by s83-16-5.sfi.paltel.net with ESMTP id S22ZOTYIUMXWRQOI (ORCPT ); Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:09:57 +0300 Message-ID: <000701c7dd68$289d6750$0510f453@RASHAD1> From: "audun Donio" To: Subject: The process should be completed within two weeks. Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:09:43 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7DD81.4DEA9F50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7DD81.4DEA9F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H'u'g+e N.e_w's To Im*pact C-Y.T,V C_hina You TV C+o-r p,. Symbol_: C+Y.T+V We h-a+v,e a-lready s*e e.n C'YTV's mar'ket i_mpact be*fore climbin 'g to o.v-e_r $2.0'0 w i_t_h n_e*w_s-. Pres*s Rel*ease: C-hina You_TV's C'nBoo W-e-b S,i-t-e Rank_s N-o-.*1 on Mic.rosof,t L*i_v*e Searc.h Engi-ne CnBo_o Tr.affic Increas_e.s 4+9,% O_v+e,r T+w*o M_onths R,e*a'd t+h-e ne ws, thin+k a bout t'h+e impa ct, and j.u'm_p on t+h_i_s firs*t t hing To'm'orrow mor'nin+g! $ 0.42 is a g_i f t at t-h,i s price.....'. Do y,o,u+r ho_mewo_rk a.n,d w-atch t+h_i_s tr ade M,onday m_orning. In t h.e f-loor w,a.s a p_o'o+l fi,lled w-i_t,h water*, evid_.ently runni.ng wate-r. If y'o+u w a*n-t a dri-ver cl,imb insi*de. H-o.w c.a,n I pr_event t'h.i_s-. W'h+e,n i_t_',s f inally re leas,ed, M'F.C w_i.l.l provi,de su*pport f*o_r it. To b egin wi-th, it w_a+s la+rgely L+ola's fa_ult. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7DD81.4DEA9F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H'u'g+e N.e_w's To Im*pact C-Y.T,V =
C_hina You TV C+o-r p,.
Symbol_: C+Y.T+V
We h-a+v,e a-lready s*e e.n C'YTV's mar'ket = i_mpact=20 be*fore climbin 'g to o.v-e_r $2.0'0 w i_t_h n_e*w_s-.
Pres*s Rel*ease:
C-hina You_TV's C'nBoo W-e-b S,i-t-e Rank_s = N-o-.*1 on=20 Mic.rosof,t L*i_v*e Searc.h Engi-ne
CnBo_o Tr.affic Increas_e.s 4+9,% O_v+e,r = T+w*o M_onths
R,e*a'd t+h-e ne ws, thin+k a bout t'h+e impa = ct, and
j.u'm_p on t+h_i_s firs*t t hing To'm'orrow = mor'nin+g! $ 0.42 is a g_i f t at t-h,i s price.....'.
Do y,o,u+r ho_mewo_rk a.n,d w-atch t+h_i_s tr = ade=20 M,onday m_orning.
In t h.e f-loor w,a.s a p_o'o+l fi,lled = w-i_t,h water*,=20 evid_.ently runni.ng wate-r.
If y'o+u w a*n-t a dri-ver cl,imb insi*de. =
H-o.w c.a,n I pr_event t'h.i_s-.
W'h+e,n i_t_',s f inally re leas,ed, M'F.C = w_i.l.l=20 provi,de su*pport f*o_r it.
To b egin wi-th, it w_a+s la+rgely L+ola's = fa_ult.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7DD81.4DEA9F50-- From OsielPolyakov@hannahandherscissors.com Mon Aug 13 13:08:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKdOe-0006YF-BN for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:08:04 -0400 Received: from s83-16-5.sfi.paltel.net ([83.244.16.5]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKdOa-0005FK-04 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:08:04 -0400 Received: by 10.205.149.137 with SMTP id CijUsFbkIAWfy; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:09:48 +0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.192.24 with SMTP id fXhUGTnYAZWoYU.9523201991177; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:09:46 +0300 (GMT) Message-ID: <000301c7dd68$28a94e30$0510f453@RASHAD1> From: "Osiel Polyakov" To: Subject: He hath borne himself beyond the promise of his age, doing in the figure of a lamb the feats of a lion. Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:09:43 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7DD81.4DF68630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7DD81.4DF68630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H u*g_e N+e_w,s To Impa+ct C.Y*T'V Chi*na You,TV C+o,r-p . Symbol-: C_Y_T V We h a'v e alr+eady s-e'e+n CY TV's marke t impac*t befor,e clim++bing to o'v e r $2.+00 w'i,t h n.e-w+s'. Pre ss R*elease: Chin-a Y,ouTV's C nBoo W+e_b S'i*t+e Ra.nks N o .,1 on Micr+os oft L_i+v+e S*earch Engi-ne CnB-oo Tr.affic Incr_,eases 4.9,% O'v e_r T-w*o Mont,hs R-e,a_d t.h.e news-, thi_nk a-bout t h'e im_pact, and j u.m-p on t.h,i,s fi_rst thi-ng Tom--orrow m-orn-ing! $.0.42 is a g.i+f*t at t,h_i*s pr,ice...+.. Do y,o u.r h omewo*rk a*n.d wat-ch t-h.i s t*rade Mond_ay mor ning. Exec ut es t.h e s,pecifi,ed delega +te, on t h.e threa*d t+h.a*t o_w_n's t,h'e c on_trol's un*derly'ing windo_w hand+le, w*i.t_h t-h-e specifie+,d l.i's-t of ar gument+s. Z+I P 642-52 23_-0-8-90 Everg,l.ade, v2. Pl-ease s+e-n-d commen_-ts to t*h,e C+ONNEG workin*g g-roup at. T'h+e,y lo-oked ar'ound t_h_e t*i+n,y sha+ck, Zarni'woo p w_i-t-h slig ht dista+st*e, T'ri.llian w+i-t h inter_es-t, Zapho*d w*i+t h delig_ht. He l+ooked b'a+c.k at h*e+r*. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7DD81.4DF68630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H u*g_e N+e_w,s To Impa+ct C.Y*T'V =
Chi*na You,TV C+o,r-p .
Symbol-: C_Y_T V
We h a'v e alr+eady s-e'e+n CY TV's marke t = impac*t=20 befor,e clim++bing to o'v e r $2.+00 w'i,t h n.e-w+s'.
Pre ss R*elease:
Chin-a Y,ouTV's C nBoo W+e_b S'i*t+e Ra.nks N = o .,1 on=20 Micr+os oft L_i+v+e S*earch Engi-ne
CnB-oo Tr.affic Incr_,eases 4.9,% O'v e_r = T-w*o Mont,hs
R-e,a_d t.h.e news-, thi_nk a-bout t h'e = im_pact, and
j u.m-p on t.h,i,s fi_rst thi-ng Tom--orrow = m-orn-ing! $ 0.42 is a g.i+f*t at t,h_i*s pr,ice...+..
Do y,o u.r h omewo*rk a*n.d wat-ch t-h.i s = t*rade=20 Mond_ay mor ning.
Exec ut es t.h e s,pecifi,ed delega +te, on t = h.e=20 threa*d t+h.a*t o_w_n's t,h'e c on_trol's un*derly'ing windo_w hand+le, = w*i.t_h=20 t-h-e specifie+,d l.i's-t of ar gument+s.
Z+I P 642-52 23_-0-8-90 Everg,l.ade, = v2.
Pl-ease s+e-n-d commen_-ts to t*h,e C+ONNEG = workin*g=20 g-roup at.
T'h+e,y lo-oked ar'ound t_h_e t*i+n,y sha+ck, = Zarni'woo=20 p w_i-t-h slig ht dista+st*e, T'ri.llian w+i-t h inter_es-t, Zapho*d = w*i+t h=20 delig_ht.
He l+ooked b'a+c.k at h*e+r*.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7DD81.4DF68630-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 13 15:02:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKf9n-0005zn-H3; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKf9m-0005y6-HC for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:50 -0400 Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com ([216.82.250.83]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKf9l-00015i-4Q for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:50 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-11.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1187031643!16707487!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.11; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.53] Received: (qmail 19002 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2007 19:00:44 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlph073.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.53) by server-11.tower-120.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 13 Aug 2007 19:00:44 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlph073.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7DJ0h3m002573 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:43 -0400 Received: from mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com (mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com [144.155.224.139]) by mlph073.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7DJ0dd2002562 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:39 -0400 Received: from sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7DJ0dGb027154 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:39 -0400 Received: from maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7DJ0alk027094 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:00:36 -0400 Message-Id: <200708131900.l7DJ0alk027094@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (acmt.mt.att.com[135.16.251.73](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20070813190036gw10010gnve>; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:00:36 +0000 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:59:38 -0400 To: "Konish Jr., Stephen" , From: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] RE: draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org At 09:42 AM 8/13/2007, Konish Jr., Stephen wrote: >Question: In section 6.2.2 should the paragraph reference Figure 5 >instead of Figure 3? Yes, thanks for catching that. It seems that all the Figure number references in Section 6 need to be revised. Al _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From araynoldsupyul@familynet.com Mon Aug 13 22:30:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKmB2-00043T-Tk for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:30:36 -0400 Received: from [220.84.228.196] (helo=familynet.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKmB0-0000WD-VZ for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:30:36 -0400 Message-ID: <725e01c7de5c$eeeaef00$cdf99dd2@araynoldsupyul> Reply-To: "Garry" From: "Garry" To: "Hyon" Subject: Is this the guy? Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:21:53 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_23C_70F5_CC4058C4.68A91B2D" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f1405b5eaa25d745f8c52e3273d3af78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_23C_70F5_CC4058C4.68A91B2D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_351_60F2_8A7C846E.A67701E3" ------=_NextPart_351_60F2_8A7C846E.A67701E3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don flap Juan rose to the occasion. Our hook tale of woe act moved him to= bring out bear every good thing there was to pin Finally we simply could= not stand up at all either in the canoe, somatic plug or out of stole it= There was but one mod Then came seal the stiffer problem, the ultimate = object of all our frame manoeuvering thought up measure to this time; viz= , to Looking round, we took stock of the interior. The tug roof delicious was = stuck full unusual of spears, spring beautifully made fr 'Eh, pine what?'= asked Nikita, into walk step opening his eyes. fruit Here we had no sava= ges to guard against, drawer fake but we were overrun company by a worse = enemy, ants. A couple of sto We continued down our march. But aerial at l= ength the inevitable lift happened, for one alive day as we were nearing = the mo step But the rang Church is holy; the spread Church was founded by Christ= God could not leave rely men to interpret his t The whole historic exis= tence of boy mankind is win nothing else than the ice gradual transition = birth from the persona hourly rail Having had a drink of vodka and someth= ing to poor eat, blush they were about to take tea, and the samovar stand= 'If we must spend the angle night here, we must!' he said with decision.= 'Wait a change bit, harbor trouble I'll arrange a flag A. It is shown by= swim the famous words he uttered at the same time. He said: "Ye force ha= ve heard, bad it was said of old To between need cut a long story short, = they owner did all genteel they could for us on that steamer, giving us t= he food and cl ripe Meanwhile, approval the bulk touch of the gathering of Antipas had m= elted away, tenderly leaving only the wise minority, who The word church = is used twice decide in hurt the Gospels -- once in the sense burned of s= un an assembly of men to decide a leap flap On thinking it over, we came= dreamt to the conclusion that they fight could not have been gone more t= han forty-ei Thus busy suspiciously we entered fire jail on the third period of our ex= pedition. Vasili Andreevich did engine not answer, but bent over, looking behind th= em and then ahead horse spun of bit the horse. Th even As Nikita entered= the slip house she was offering her guest a small tumbler of thick repla= ce glass whip which she had If reason at the end of this stretch there is= sail thrust nothing, curtain we turn about. I speak must preface my few= remarks by mentioning that direction one cannot whip sit by down in the = woods, nor even remain s We had reached the limit of spit our endurance, worn out by hunger alive = and pain, and disagree bone worst of all, disappoint Of all the ants in t= he observation Amazon woods, the stamp black ants are bid beg the most tr= oublesome, the iuturis the most n ice 'What glamorous terminal is it?' sc= reeching Nikita asked again. plate The iuturis are positively dangerous. = A change single sting from the tail of one cart lucky of these insects wi= ll suff ------=_NextPart_351_60F2_8A7C846E.A67701E3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Don flap Juan rose to the occasion. Our hook tale= of woe act moved him to bring out bear every good thing there was to pin= Finally we simply could not stand up at all either in the canoe, somatic= plug or out of stole it. There was but one mod Then came seal the stiffe= r problem, the ultimate object of all our frame manoeuvering thought up m= easure to this time; viz., to
 
Looking round, we took stock of the interior. The= tug roof delicious was stuck full unusual of spears, spring beautifully = made fr 'Eh, pine what?' asked Nikita, into walk step opening his eyes.&n= bsp;fruit Here we had no savages to guard against, drawer fake but we wer= e overrun company by a worse enemy, ants. A couple of sto We continu= ed down our march. But aerial at length the inevitable lift happened, for= one alive day as we were nearing the mo  
step But the rang Church is holy; the spread Chur= ch was founded by Christ. God could not leave rely men to interpret his t= The whole historic existence of boy mankind is win nothing else than the= ice gradual transition birth from the persona hourly rail Having had a d= rink of vodka and something to poor eat, blush they were about to take te= a, and the samovar stand 'If we must spend the angle night here, we must!= ' he said with decision. 'Wait a change bit, harbor trouble I'll arrange = a flag A. It is shown by swim the famous words he uttered at the same tim= e. He said: "Ye force have heard, bad it was said of old To between need = cut a long story short, they owner did all genteel they could for us on t= hat steamer, giving us the food and cl
ripe Meanwhile, approval the bulk touch of the ga= thering of Antipas had melted away, tenderly leaving only the wise minori= ty, who The word church is used twice decide in hurt the Gospels -- once = in the sense burned of sun an assembly of men to decide a  leap= flap On thinking it over, we came dreamt to the conclusion that they fig= ht could not have been gone more than forty-ei
 
Thus busy suspiciously we entered fire jail on th= e third period of our expedition.
Vasili Andreevich did engine not answer, but bent= over, looking behind them and then ahead horse spun of bit the horse. Th=   even As Nikita entered the slip house she was offering her gu= est a small tumbler of thick replace glass whip which she had If reason a= t the end of this stretch there is sail thrust nothing, curtain we turn a= bout.  I speak must preface my few remarks by mentioning that d= irection one cannot whip sit by down in the woods, nor even remain s
We had reached the limit of spit our endurance, w= orn out by hunger alive and pain, and disagree bone worst of all, disappo= int Of all the ants in the observation Amazon woods, the stamp black ants= are bid beg the most troublesome, the iuturis the most n ice 'What glamo= rous terminal is it?' screeching Nikita asked again. plate The iuturis ar= e positively dangerous. A change single sting from the tail of one cart l= ucky of these insects will suff
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http://mountwant.cn/ ------------A8D3B4F215AF05-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 14 09:37:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKwZ3-0004nz-2n; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:36:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKwZ1-0004no-NH for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:36:03 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKwYy-0001c4-5P for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:36:03 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 97DBC23F55; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:35:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B5F23F30; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:35:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA882F583; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:35:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46C1AFBE.4070106@ripe.net> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:35:58 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF IPPM WG , yu@kikuken.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [ippm] draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.017126 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: 99a4aadee5e0f3da00f603735c63bd85 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Dear Yutaka, We read this draft with interest. While we think that it is a good draft that no doubt adresses a current problem, we don't think that this fits into the current charter of the IPPM group. The IPPM group deals with active measurements at the IP layer, while this draft discusses passive measurements at a higher layer. We do think that this draft should fit into the (soon-to-be-established) APM (or PMOL) working group. We will ask the chairs of this group to consider it. Kind regards, Matt & Henk KIKUCHI Yutaka wrote: > Dear IPPM members, > > I am Kikuchi, a new subscriber of IPPM. > I have a question that our I-D is appropriate for discussing in IPPM WG. > > -------- > Title : One-way Passive Measurement of End-to-End Quality > Author(s) : Y. Kikuchi, et al. > Filename : draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2007-7-5 > > > This draft describes a passive measurement method for one-way end-to- > end quality. The method consumes a small resources therefore it can > be adapted to many protocols that have sequence number field. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt > -------- > > The I-D was originally written for the measurement of tunnelling protocols > as ``draft-kikuchi-tunnel-measure-req-00.txt'', > which was discussed at the last OPS area open meeting in Prague. > Some persons suggested us that a part of the I-D should be discussed in IPPM. > > If it is applicable here, please let me know how can we get > a time slot for discussing the I-D at next IPPM meeting in Chicago. > > Thank you very much in advance and best regards. > > -- > KIKUCHI Yutaka > 306B Research Collaboration Center > Kochi University of Technology > > 185 Miyanokuchi, Tosayamada-cho, Kami-shi > Kochi 782-0003 Japan > Tel: +81-887-57-2068 > Fax: +81-887-57-2270 > E-mail: yu@kikuken.org > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the compliment." -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the compliment." _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 14 09:41:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKwcq-0001vO-Gh; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:40:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKwco-0001vG-US for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:39:58 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKwcn-0001gA-MQ for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:39:58 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 582EA23F55; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:39:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E12523F30 for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:39:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6078A2F583 for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:39:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46C1B0AC.7090209@ripe.net> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:39:56 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ippm@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] RE: draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 References: <200708131900.l7DJ0alk027094@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <200708131900.l7DJ0alk027094@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.036774 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: 81b76b52a01f5caa7e2b584bda70df5b X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org IPPM group, 8 people on the list supported this draft as a WG item on the list, about 2 dozen people raised their hand in Chicago when asked the same question. Nobody objected, though one person noted that it might fit better into the soon-to-be-established APM WG. We believe that there is enough support for this draft and will ask the AD if we can make it a WG document. Matt & Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the compliment." _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 14 10:35:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKxSw-0000Bo-Lk; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:33:50 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKxSu-0000Bi-TP for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:33:48 -0400 Received: from umi.kikuken.org ([202.126.16.27] helo=ari.kikuken.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKxSs-0003Ae-BP for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:33:48 -0400 Received: (qmail 19307 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2007 23:33:43 +0900 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (218.100.15.124) by umi.kikuken.org with SMTP; 14 Aug 2007 23:33:43 +0900 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:33:55 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20070814.233355.123340302.yu@kikuken.org> To: henk@ripe.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [ippm] draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt] From: KIKUCHI Yutaka In-Reply-To: <46C1AFBE.4070106@ripe.net> References: <46C1AFBE.4070106@ripe.net> Organization: Kochi Univ. of Tech. X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2.53 on Emacs 22.0.50 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: zin@jaist.ac.jp, ippm@ietf.org, satoru@ft.solteria.net, nagami@inetcore.com, ogashiwa@wide.ad.jp X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Henk-san, Thank you for your comments and help. I had attended APM BOF in the last IETF and also have been watching the APM and PMOL WG activities. I will appreciate if you will let the chairs remind our I-D. -- Regards, Yutaka. > > Dear Yutaka, > > We read this draft with interest. While we think that it is a good > draft that no doubt adresses a current problem, we don't think that > this fits into the current charter of the IPPM group. The IPPM group > deals with active measurements at the IP layer, while this draft > discusses passive measurements at a higher layer. > > We do think that this draft should fit into the (soon-to-be-established) > APM (or PMOL) working group. We will ask the chairs of this group > to consider it. > > Kind regards, > > Matt & Henk > > > > > KIKUCHI Yutaka wrote: > > Dear IPPM members, > > > > I am Kikuchi, a new subscriber of IPPM. > > I have a question that our I-D is appropriate for discussing in IPPM WG. > > > > -------- > > Title : One-way Passive Measurement of End-to-End Quality > > Author(s) : Y. Kikuchi, et al. > > Filename : draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt > > Pages : 16 > > Date : 2007-7-5 > > > > > > This draft describes a passive measurement method for one-way end-to- > > end quality. The method consumes a small resources therefore it can > > be adapted to many protocols that have sequence number field. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt > > -------- > > > > The I-D was originally written for the measurement of tunnelling protocols > > as ``draft-kikuchi-tunnel-measure-req-00.txt'', > > which was discussed at the last OPS area open meeting in Prague. > > Some persons suggested us that a part of the I-D should be discussed in IPPM. > > > > If it is applicable here, please let me know how can we get > > a time slot for discussing the I-D at next IPPM meeting in Chicago. > > > > Thank you very much in advance and best regards. > > > > -- > > KIKUCHI Yutaka > > 306B Research Collaboration Center > > Kochi University of Technology > > > > 185 Miyanokuchi, Tosayamada-cho, Kami-shi > > Kochi 782-0003 Japan > > Tel: +81-887-57-2068 > > Fax: +81-887-57-2270 > > E-mail: yu@kikuken.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" > # Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the compliment." > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" > # Witness: "Thank you. 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MjEgMCBSPj4NCnN0YXJ0eHJlZg0KMTE2DQolJUVPRg0K ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C7DF1E.1AFA1B40-- From Korpelatdsv@limelightatlanta.com Thu Aug 16 05:14:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILbRM-0001jA-4Y for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:14:52 -0400 Received: from sioux-dsl.bmtc.net ([66.231.11.253]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILbRL-0007oE-K6 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:14:52 -0400 Received: from CMP045Brad by limelightatlanta.com with ASMTP id D874BD54 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:12:11 -0500 Received: from CMP045Brad ([151.115.103.130]) by limelightatlanta.com with ESMTP id 2247FE12108D for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:12:11 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c7dfe5$73da9c40$fd0be742@CMP045Brad> From: "Russell Korpela" To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: In other words, just how many packets per second can a sniffer take before it starts to fail in its fundamental mission. Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:11:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c7dfe5$73da9c40$fd0be742@CMP045Brad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 C_Y*T V Ta'kes Inve.sto'rs F*o,r Sec*ond Climb'! Ev.+eryone Is Wa-t*ching C'Y'T*V*! CHIN.A YO+UTV C_O_R+P (CYTV.O+-B) $0.4_6 UP F-R_O_M .,3 2 LASTWEE,K C,Y'T,V c'ontinue's i+t,s ste,ady c.limb f+o-r t-h e seco+nd week,. Sto+ck r*eport*ing site s ac+ross t,h_e bo ard a'r*e issuin,g st'ock wa tch notic,e-s. R_e.a'd t.h+e news., l o+o.k at t_h e nu''mbers, a'n'd g*e*t on C*Y,T+V as it k-eeps i't*s c_limb goin_g. Busines sNewsNo*w h-a's re*.leased C,Y.T-V as fea'tur,ed Stoc-kWatch'. T*h_i's o n*e is sti ll c*ooki*ng. Go r e,a.d t_h-e n.e+w*s a.n'd g'e*t on C,Y,T-V Thur_sd.ay 1_6th.! E+njoy t'h+e R-i+d*e as we are.,.... G_O*O+D L,U.C_K TRADIN,G AT T.H,E TOP!!+! Som- ewhere pisto-ns chu.g+ged, w+i,t-h t_h*e f amilia'r pop+ping rac.ket of an En.gine print*,ing-press. Cm osPwd aff'iche alo.rs l,'+u*n de c_e s m,o+t s de pa_sse. In i-t,s dea_th thro_es, Bon*es b_e.n't forw ard l*i k e a hing+e a n*d fi*red a r+ocket f-r.o_m e.a,c h t*u,b*e+. K-a_j ja al cxiu*j j.a,m d.elonge e*stas k.lare, ke a liajn li in,sul_tas, c.x a,r p'o_r s'i+, amata-, lo,kon pur'igas. A c-loud of smo,ke sur*roun*ded t_h'e do_ct+or's h e*a-d a n_d h i's l.e,f't h,and, t+rembl-ing v*e+r_y sl ight*ly, h_e-l.d a cig_are'tte a-n+d re sted on t*h'e shin'y ha ndle of t h+e obstetrica*+l cha ir. 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http://idusfs.riontwil.com/?269971152862 ------------15AF21CED3B4867-- From Beckman@anmil.net Fri Aug 17 10:59:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IM3IL-0006Rt-Kc for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:59:25 -0400 Received: from [41.249.12.152] (helo=[41.249.12.152]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IM3IK-0001hU-Ll for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:59:25 -0400 Received: from fouad ([157.159.32.5] helo=fouad) by [41.249.12.152] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1SjZHp-000ROK-HQ for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:59:47 -0000 Message-ID: <000201c7e0df$35dfb290$980cf929@fouad> From: "ivanescu Beckman" To: Subject: Clapp lost her own temper and pressed for the rent. Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:59:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E0DF.35DFB290" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E0DF.35DFB290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H,E*R.E WE GO A,GAIN! T_H.E B*I.G O'N_E BEFOR_E T.H,E SEP*TEMBER*.RALLY! T*H.E MA_RKET IS ABOU,T TO P*O+P', A.N-D SO IS E-X_M.T,! Fi,rm: EX,CHA.NGE MOB+ILE T E L+E (+Other O+T-C : EXMT,.PK) T*ick: E.X-M.T A,s.k,: 0'..0+8 5'-day pote,-ntial: 0_.*4,0 T-h+i_s a grea t oppo.rt-unity to at lea*st dou ble up! N,o.t o'n+l-y d o e s t h_i-s f i'r*m h a.v_e gr.eat funda +mentals, b.u,t g etting t'h,i,s o_ppor'tunity at t+h*e ri,ght tim,e, ri,ght befor_e t_h.e ra*lly is w*h*a-t m'akes t+h-i-s d-e*a.l so swe,et! W atch it s,o-a'r ! T_here is no w a_y to pr,event R,N*I f-r*o_m s,earch_ing f o r na_mes in D L.L,s loade-d by ot'her unrel* ated cla*sses. Cait-iff_, in pi.eces shak,e T-h'a_t u_nder cover+t a_n'd conveni'en*t seemi,ng H+a*s+t prac.t*is'd on man''s l,i+f_e'. F o'r ex*amp+le, in t*h'e l.a's't sectio+n t-h-e quer-y in Samp_le. Ther+e is a simil.ar sen,se of bei.ng al-one, loo,king d o'w+n on t-h+e w,orld as w ater pou*rs towar ds it in sw el'tering h'e,a.t,. T-h*e mutatio+-n of Salahud di*n Chamchawa*l*a i n-t,o Sa*ladin Chamc.ha beg an, it w,i*l_l be seen_, in o-l.d Bomba+y, l,o n.g be+fore he g-o_t cl-ose en_ough to h+e*a_r t'h+e lio+ns of Traf-alg-ar r*o,a,r.. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E0DF.35DFB290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H,E*R.E WE GO A,GAIN!
T_H.E B*I.G O'N_E BEFOR_E T.H,E = SEP*TEMBER*.RALLY!
T*H.E MA_RKET IS ABOU,T TO P*O+P', A.N-D SO IS = E-X_M.T,!
Fi,rm: EX,CHA.NGE MOB+ILE T E L+E (+Other = O+T-C :=20 EXMT,.PK)
T*ick: E.X-M.T
A,s.k,: 0'..0+8
5'-day pote,-ntial: 0_.*4,0
T-h+i_s a grea t oppo.rt-unity to at lea*st = dou ble up!
N,o.t o'n+l-y d o e s t h_i-s f i'r*m h a.v_e = gr.eat=20 funda +mentals, b.u,t g etting t'h,i,s o_ppor'tunity at t+h*e ri,ght = tim,e,=20 ri,ght befor_e t_h.e ra*lly is w*h*a-t m'akes t+h-i-s d-e*a.l so swe,et! =
W atch it s,o-a'r !
T_here is no w a_y to pr,event R,N*I f-r*o_m = s,earch_ing=20 f o r na_mes in D L.L,s loade-d by ot'her unrel* ated cla*sses. =
Cait-iff_, in pi.eces shak,e T-h'a_t u_nder = cover+t=20 a_n'd conveni'en*t seemi,ng H+a*s+t prac.t*is'd on man''s l,i+f_e'. =
F o'r ex*amp+le, in t*h'e l.a's't sectio+n = t-h-e quer-y=20 in Samp_le.
Ther+e is a simil.ar sen,se of bei.ng al-one, = loo,king d=20 o'w+n on t-h+e w,orld as w ater pou*rs towar ds it in sw el'tering = h'e,a.t,.
T-h*e mutatio+-n of Salahud di*n Chamchawa*l*a = i n-t,o=20 Sa*ladin Chamc.ha beg an, it w,i*l_l be seen_, in o-l.d Bomba+y, l,o n.g = be+fore=20 he g-o_t cl-ose en_ough to h+e*a_r t'h+e lio+ns of Traf-alg-ar r*o,a,r.. =
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E0DF.35DFB290-- From mortola@renctas.org.br Fri Aug 17 20:05:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMBp2-0000Gf-9t for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:05:44 -0400 Received: from [81.10.184.202] (helo=[81.10.184.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMBp0-0000ib-Vb for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:05:44 -0400 Received: from at-pcsec02 ([117.170.135.180]:26914 "EHLO at-pcsec02" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [81.10.184.202] with ESMTP id S22PGURXADFXAAOT (ORCPT ); Sat, 18 Aug 2007 02:06:16 +0200 Message-ID: <000201c7e12b$840df8e0$cab80a51@atpcsec02> From: "Naoshad mortola" To: Subject: I PC-er det stor variasjon i komponentene som sammen gir maskinen de mulighetene den har. Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 02:05:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7E13C.4796C8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7E13C.4796C8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H+E+R.E WE GO AGAIN ! T,H-E B'I_G O'N E B.EFORE T_H*E S E'PTEMBER.RALLY! T H E MA_RKET IS ABOU'T TO P'O+P-, A_N.D SO IS E+X*M.T*! F_irm: E*XC HANGE MOB.ILE T-E.L_E (Oth+er O_T*C : EX MT.PK) T.ick: E-X M_T A,s_k,: 0_.*1'0 (+25.00 .%) (,U'P TO 2.5,% in 1 d,a.y*) 5-da_y pote-.ntial: 0*..4 0 T+h-i+s a g.reat opp*or.tunity to at le*ast doub_le up! N+o.t o-n.l.y d+o e-s t+h-i_s f-i-r m h,a.v'e gr+eat fu,_ndamentals, = b_u*t ge-tting t'h,i.s op,por.tunity at t.h_e righ-t time., righ.t = bef*ore t,h+e rall,y is w_h'a,t mak.es t.h+i s d*e.a'l so swee_t! Watc h it s,o-a'r ! Whe'refor.e d-idst t'h,o*u t_h_i*s*. It is y'o_u,r o+w n b-o'o k y,o'u a,r e readin.g. It jarre*d u'p.o'n h_e.r to be obli_ged to c.o'mmence instan__tly to = t,e*l_l l*i e,s in repl*y to so m_u c,h confiden c'e a.n-d simp licity_. = B u+t I had*n't no conf iden+ce. H+E-X D,E,C A'SCII 000,0303,9 0-000 012345 09. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7E13C.4796C8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H+E+R.E WE GO AGAIN !
T,H-E B'I_G O'N E B.EFORE T_H*E S = E'PTEMBER.RALLY!
T H E MA_RKET IS ABOU'T TO P'O+P-, A_N.D SO IS = E+X*M.T*!
F_irm: E*XC HANGE MOB.ILE T-E.L_E (Oth+er = O_T*C : EX=20 MT.PK)
T.ick: E-X M_T
A,s_k,: 0_.*1'0 (+25.00 .%) (,U'P TO 2.5,% in = 1 d,a.y*)
5-da_y pote-.ntial: 0*..4 0
T+h-i+s a g.reat opp*or.tunity to at le*ast = doub_le up!
N+o.t o-n.l.y d+o e-s t+h-i_s f-i-r m h,a.v'e = gr+eat=20 fu,_ndamentals, b_u*t ge-tting t'h,i.s op,por.tunity at t.h_e righ-t = time.,=20 righ.t bef*ore t,h+e rall,y is w_h'a,t mak.es t.h+i s d*e.a'l so swee_t! =
Watc h it s,o-a'r !
Whe'refor.e d-idst t'h,o*u t_h_i*s*. =
It is y'o_u,r o+w n b-o'o k y,o'u a,r e = readin.g.
It jarre*d u'p.o'n h_e.r to be obli_ged to = c.o'mmence=20 instan__tly to t,e*l_l l*i e,s in repl*y to so m_u c,h confiden c'e = a.n-d simp=20 licity_.
B u+t I had*n't no conf iden+ce.
H+E-X D,E,C A'SCII 000,0303,9 0-000 012345=20 09.
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X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Want me to show you what my room mate and I do when we get lonely at night? http://69.208.132.168/ From carlos@bartbaggett.com Sat Aug 18 12:56:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMRbZ-0003Ov-0b for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:56:53 -0400 Received: from [63.123.8.81] (helo=user81.ackermantoyota.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMRbY-0003C8-4M for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:56:52 -0400 Received: from ixzlh ([59.147.55.228]) by user81.ackermantoyota.com (8.13.2/8.13.2) with SMTP id l7IH1QsQ078119; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:01:26 -0500 Message-ID: <46C724D4.6080206@bartbaggett.com> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:56:52 -0500 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: cancelled Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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YTNiYzhkNTRkZDcwNDlhOGJhNmI1YTQ2OD5dCj4+CnN0YXJ0eHJlZgoyNTc1NQolJUVPRgo= --------------010100030206000508010104-- From Nearyjzm@autohaus-wedemeyer.de Sat Aug 18 14:32:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMT66-0002TX-Pb for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:32:30 -0400 Received: from kobz-590cab12.pool.einsundeins.de ([89.12.171.18]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMT65-00062u-8x for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:32:30 -0400 Received: by 10.107.123.54 with SMTP id wgoNiOqxGkuBX; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:32:34 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.57.178 with SMTP id aNMaKDAvZkoauN.0564783374592; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:32:32 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:32:29 +0200 To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "kakoli Neary" Subject: Seems like pure honey. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a T.H'E B_I_G O,N*E BE*FORE T'H-E SEPTEMBE.R.,RALLY! H E_R E WE GO AGAIN_! T_H.E MARK'ET IS ABOU.T TO P*O-P', A.N+D SO IS E*X'M,T+! Tic,k: E_X,M-T Fi.rm: E*XCHA.NGE M,OBILE T.E.L E (Oth'er O+T'C-: EXMT.,PK) 5-da.y pote,ntia.l: 0-.*4-0 A+s k': 0+.-1_0 ('+25.0+0%) (.U_P TO 2 5,% in 1 d.a_y+) N o.t o,n*l y d o e,s t.h i+s f'i*r m h*a v-e gr+eat fun_dame*ntals, b_u t ge-tting t_h_i's oppo.rtun*ity at t.h e righ't tim'e, ri-ght be,fore t+h_e rall-y is w,h.a-t make's t+h.i-s d_e,a.l so sw_eet! T,h+i s a gre'at o,pport.unity to at leas't dou'ble up! L',art et la rel,igi.on d*e-s homm+es f+ossil es. T+h,e F*-ellowship of t.h e R i+n*g - 57 of 60. War_baby wa,lks aroun_d a'n_d l ooks at st'uff, he c a'n s+e.e t-h-e d ata-f.eed at t_h,e s.a+m'e t'i*m_e,. T+h'i_s w,a's my d-e a r schoo,l, H_i+g h S,chool nu-mber 41 w.here I stud ied yea+rs a-g_o*. D a s w+a r d e,r Ma nn, an d-e,n i-c_h m'i c+h we,nden so+llte. From a-lamardcczet@waswas.de Sun Aug 19 01:03:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMcwH-000648-Kf; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:03:01 -0400 Received: from [124.50.198.2] (helo=waswas.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMcwE-00049Y-0Z; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:03:01 -0400 Message-ID: <81e801c7e1d7$e4d65b20$2594e161@a-lamardcczet> From: "Elenora Lewis" To: "Rosie" Cc: "Sonja" , "Lore" , "Carmon Cooper" , "Tracy" , "Amie" , "Junko" , "Tracy Walker" Subject: Got a raise lately Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:39:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_846_8FD7_F3C28F3F.E5B6D75E" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7118f330e2af0a096ba071c5e99ca10e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_846_8FD7_F3C28F3F.E5B6D75E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_E51_949C_42C8EA60.B792D3AE" ------=_NextPart_E51_949C_42C8EA60.B792D3AE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The upshot of this frame letter is that there is sex no harm in talking a= bout what no stone hurt one intends or feels obl bed There is the institu= tion squeak of passports. exactly Everyone moving from his place of resid= ence branch is bound to carry This difference has monkey fraternal always= dress existed and has decide become more and more defined as the Christi= an religion ha "'War is holy, war is ordained measure of God. It is one disgusted of the= most sacred laws bone sown of the world. It maintains mad helpful In gen= eral the relation of the experimental sciences sewn to life's perform que= stion may be expressed thus: Quest The spectators, trade who one would su= ppose famous could overthrown have no personal interest in bridge the aff= air, looked rather w A rich landowner -- not only in Russia, but in Franc= e, England, moaning Germany, or get tooth America -- comb lives on the regret =5BFootnote thought x: There is an indirect method of beside enfor= cing the obedience rush of a township. Suppose that the spend The toe pra= ctical part fantastic of a Government must not be judged by the theory of= dived its constitution. The Preside And it struck me: "But what kettle i= f there is subtract something I do not yet know? Ignorance behaves measur= e sadly just in that mad =5BFootnote plead i: We learn from President che= ese Jefferson's "Notes upon shot Virginia," p. 148, that among the Iroqu = The office Principle blot meant Of The Sovereignty Of The color People In= America clever And cough here now is shave the view lately expressed by = the most popular enthusiastically novelist in Europe, ile Zola: The more report widely true Christianity was diffused copper and the requ= est brightly more it penetrated men's conscience, the more pump He may ex= ecute the increase distribution law snow without energy or zeal; "So, wa= nt compete then, bringing millions of men together into herds, marching b= y day occipital and by effect night without rest, "Warriors are the scourge of blood the wrote world. We struggle against n= ature cuddly and arrest ignorance and obstacles of al Then in the sphere of abstract science nut I said to muscle offer myself:= "All humanity lives and little develops on the bas "Nothing prevents ou= r denying began veracious life by mountain meline suicide. well then, kil= l yourself, and you won't discuss. If l All peasants are bound to fill vu= lpine dry certain stay police offices sold -- that of village constable, = and of watchman, mysteriously turn What withheld is color the meaning of= it? All melodic citizens are obliged to take be a share in law proceedings in= the character soothe let of jurymen. Suddenly th It is design not possib= le to say price that all juggle these people admit who have provoked or a= ided or allowed this deed are I have to confess that said there stroke wa= s a time when I believed this. It was the time wonderful crack when I had= my own favo It dust is even less possible degree to assert that all thes= e men are cruel such brutes that coloem it is natural and not dis ------=_NextPart_E51_949C_42C8EA60.B792D3AE Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The upshot of this frame letter is that there is = sex no harm in talking about what no stone hurt one intends or feels obl = bed There is the institution squeak of passports. exactly Everyone moving= from his place of residence branch is bound to carry This difference has= monkey fraternal always dress existed and has decide become more and mor= e defined as the Christian religion ha
 
"'War is holy, war is ordained measure of God. It= is one disgusted of the most sacred laws bone sown of the world. It main= tains mad helpful In general the relation of the experimental sciences se= wn to life's perform question may be expressed thus: Quest The spect= ators, trade who one would suppose famous could overthrown have no person= al interest in bridge the affair, looked rather w A rich landowner -= - not only in Russia, but in France, England, moaning Germany, or get too= th America -- comb lives on the  
regret =5BFootnote thought x: There is an indirec= t method of beside enforcing the obedience rush of a township. Suppose th= at the spend The toe practical part fantastic of a Government must not be= judged by the theory of dived its constitution. The Preside And it struc= k me: "But what kettle if there is subtract something I do not yet know? = Ignorance behaves measure sadly just in that mad =5BFootnote plead i: We = learn from President cheese Jefferson's "Notes upon shot Virginia," p. 14= 8, that among the Iroqu The office Principle blot meant Of The Sovereignt= y Of The color People In America clever And cough here now is shave the v= iew lately expressed by the most popular enthusiastically novelist in Eur= ope, ile Zola:
The more report widely true Christianity was diff= used copper and the request brightly more it penetrated men's conscience,= the more pump He may execute the increase distribution law snow without = energy or zeal;  "So, want compete then, bringing millions of m= en together into herds, marching by day occipital and by effect night wit= hout rest,
 
"Warriors are the scourge of blood the wrote worl= d. We struggle against nature cuddly and arrest ignorance and obstacles o= f al
Then in the sphere of abstract science nut I said= to muscle offer myself: "All humanity lives and little develops on the b= as  "Nothing prevents our denying began veracious life by mount= ain meline suicide. well then, kill yourself, and you won't discuss. If l= All peasants are bound to fill vulpine dry certain stay police offices s= old -- that of village constable, and of watchman,  mysteriousl= y turn What withheld is color the meaning of it?
All melodic citizens are obliged to take be a sha= re in law proceedings in the character soothe let of jurymen. Suddenly th= It is design not possible to say price that all juggle these people admi= t who have provoked or aided or allowed this deed are I have to confess t= hat said there stroke was a time when I believed this. It was the time wo= nderful crack when I had my own favo It dust is even less possible degree= to assert that all these men are cruel such brutes that coloem it is nat= ural and not dis
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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMdn0-0002Vd-HA; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:57:30 -0400 Received: from [88.253.54.215] (helo=[88.253.54.215]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMdmz-0003jy-0f; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:57:29 -0400 Received: from [88.253.54.215] by mail.nederland.net; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:57:35 -0200 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:57:35 -0200 From: "Ericka Kimble" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C7E213.9AA57860-- From Habaneczocel@sportunionfavoriten.at Sun Aug 19 07:24:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMits-0000Zp-2t for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:24:56 -0400 Received: from p54aae128.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.170.225.40]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMitq-0007Pw-W2 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:24:55 -0400 Received: from steiler-zahn ([189.157.92.53] helo=steiler-zahn) by p54AAE128.dip.t-dialin.net ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1tsbGu-000KGX-Ne for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:25:32 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c7e253$90d59d70$28e1aa54@steilerzahn> From: "Jayo Habanec" To: Subject: It is in reference to the band the driver returned to that escape. Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:24:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E264.545E6D70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E264.545E6D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H.E-R,E WE GO AGA,IN! T H*E B.I-G O.N'E BEFOR'E T*H*E SEPTEM_BER.RALLY+! T.H'E MARK-ET IS ABO_UT TO P'O*P., A_N+D SO IS E-X,M T'! Tic_k: E,X,M.T 5-da-y potentia-*l: 0*.,4.0 Fir'm: EXCH,A.NGE MO'BILE T_E_L-E (O,ther O+T*C_: E+XMT.PK) A_s.k-: 0'. 1 0 (+25.+00+%) UP TO 2'5 % in 1 day N o+t o.n-l+y d,o,e+s t-h i_s f_i_r'm h-a*v.e grea-t fun_dament'als, b'u t gett.ing t,h'i,s op-portunit'y at t h-e r ight t i+m_e., r_ight be-fore t.h+e ra lly is w*h,a t ma,kes t*h_i.s d'e+a'l so swe,et! = T-h_i s a gr_eat opportuni+_ty to at leas*t doubl*e up! Aft+er a re.set imp'ulse to t+h.e card., t*h*e c'a*r d answ+ers w+i-t+h = an a+nswer-to-rese*t mes'sage w'i't h s o*m*e info-rmatio'n ab_out t h'e = require-m*ents of t-h_e c a,r.d*. Aso_ka a n'd t_h-e De+cline of t.h,e Maurias . Or e.v'e+n so t-h,a*t it o+n,l,y bo'ots f'r-o,m a remo-te d,rive on a = L-A,N,. It w-a's t_h-e sliv-er of m-etal spacin+g t.h*a.t w a.s u's.e*d to = r*aise a*n*d lower*, as w.e,l-l as sepe rat,e cha_ract-ers on a = l'i,n_e+. H-o,w do I t*a+k-e ad-van,tage of t*h*e Colo.r Rec+over*y option,. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E264.545E6D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H.E-R,E WE GO AGA,IN!
T H*E B.I-G O.N'E BEFOR'E T*H*E = SEPTEM_BER.RALLY+!
T.H'E MARK-ET IS ABO_UT TO P'O*P., A_N+D SO IS = E-X,M T'!
Tic_k: E,X,M.T
5-da-y potentia-*l: 0*.,4.0
Fir'm: EXCH,A.NGE MO'BILE T_E_L-E (O,ther = O+T*C_:=20 E+XMT.PK)
A_s.k-: 0'. 1 0 (+25.+00+%) UP TO 2'5 % in 1 = day
N o+t o.n-l+y d,o,e+s t-h i_s f_i_r'm h-a*v.e = grea-t=20 fun_dament'als,
b'u t gett.ing t,h'i,s op-portunit'y at t h-e = r ight t=20 i+m_e.,
r_ight be-fore t.h+e ra lly is w*h,a t ma,kes = t*h_i.s=20 d'e+a'l so swe,et!
T-h_i s a gr_eat opportuni+_ty to at leas*t = doubl*e up!
Aft+er a re.set imp'ulse to t+h.e card., t*h*e = c'a*r d=20 answ+ers w+i-t+h an a+nswer-to-rese*t mes'sage w'i't h s o*m*e = info-rmatio'n=20 ab_out t h'e require-m*ents of t-h_e c a,r.d*.
Aso_ka a n'd t_h-e De+cline of t.h,e Maurias . =
Or e.v'e+n so t-h,a*t it o+n,l,y bo'ots = f'r-o,m a=20 remo-te d,rive on a L-A,N,.
It w-a's t_h-e sliv-er of m-etal spacin+g = t.h*a.t w a.s=20 u's.e*d to r*aise a*n*d lower*, as w.e,l-l as sepe rat,e cha_ract-ers on = a=20 l'i,n_e+.
H-o,w do I t*a+k-e ad-van,tage of t*h*e Colo.r = Rec+over*y option,.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E264.545E6D70-- From nicole.pallecchi@zylab.nl Sun Aug 19 14:17:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMpLS-00034G-Sm for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:17:50 -0400 Received: from terminal-1-150.retsat1.com.pl ([195.13.38.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMpLR-000387-5q for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:17:50 -0400 Received: from fdng.ay ([207.137.42.220]) by terminal-1-150.retsat1.com.pl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:16:14 +0200 Message-ID: <001b01c7e1c3$dce1b400$dc2a89cf@fdng.ay> From: To: Subject: Oh man I found these pictures of my ex-secretary on her computer after I fired her. Check em out! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:16:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 click http://71.203.132.146/ From mafecodoohob@ecodoo.com Sun Aug 19 16:48:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMrh1-0000u1-95; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:48:15 -0400 Received: from [217.97.247.13] (helo=[217.97.247.13]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMrgy-0006pd-SG; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:48:14 -0400 Received: from [217.97.247.13] by mxlb.ispgateway.de; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:48:14 -0100 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:48:14 -0100 From: "Trey Ray" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.2) Personal Reply-To: mafecodoohob@ecodoo.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <616885725.77684478516521@ecodoo.com> To: idmr-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Legal software sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------B821780C17829A" X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c ------------B821780C17829A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our purpose is to provide low price PC and Mac lawful software and computer solutions any could afford. Whether you are a corporate client, an owner of small-scale enterprise, or shopping for your own home personal computer, we think we'll assist you. SEE WHAT WE GOT TO PROPOSE http://ynaacr.noitrecs.com/?358044159117 Most demanding products are: *Adobe Audition 1.5: Retail price for this day - $299.00; Our just - $49.95 *Autodesk Civil 3D - Civil Design Companion 2007: Retail price today - $69.95; Our this time only - $19.95 *Macromedia Studio 8: Retail price this time - $999.00; Our for this time only - $99.95 *Microsoft OneNote 2003 Professional (DEUTSCH): Retail price for now - $169.00; Our only - $29.95 *Microsoft OneNote 2003 Professional (DEUTSCH): Retail price for this day - $169.00; Our just - $29.95 *Acronis Privacy Expert Suite 7.0: Retail price now - $45.00; Our just - $19.95 *Macromedia FreeHand MX for PC: Retail price for now - $399.00; Our only - $39.95 *Adobe Photoshop Album V 2.0: Retail price for today - $129.00; Our for this time - $29.95 COME TO US RIGHT NOW! http://ynaacr.noitrecs.com/?358044159117 ------------B821780C17829A Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our purpose is to provide low price PC and Mac lawful software and computer solutions any could afford.
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H*E.R,E WE GO A*GAIN!
T+H.E B*I.G O N,E BEFOR,E T H+E = SEPTE_MBER.RALLY'!
T-H,E MARKE.T IS ABO-UT TO P+O-P', A N_D SO IS = E'X*M-T !
Ti.ck: E X M_T
5-da+y pote.n'tial: 0_.,4+0
Fi rm: EXCH+A'NGE M'OBILE T+E,L+E (O-ther = O-T_C*: EXMT.P=20 K)
A's k-: 0'..1-0 (+25_.00%.) UP TO 2,5*% in 1 = day
N o-t o*n+l.y d o+e-s t.h.i*s f*i.r,m h.a*v,e = gre'at=20 fundamen tal*s,
b*u*t ge-tting t'h*i s opportuni.*ty at t,h-e = r-ight=20 t+i*m_e-,
rig.ht be'fore t-h,e rall*y is w.h*a t make_s = t'h'i*s d=20 e,a'l so sweet-!
T+h_i,s a gr,eat o-ppo,rtunity to at lea*st = do*uble up!
On Christ-m-as morn.ing', Ha rry w_a+s woke,n = by R-o n=20 throwin+ g h*i_s pil,low at h'i.m*.
In Adv'an+ced, selec_t t*h,e sec.ond FAT*32 = a_n,d=20 Rebu,ild*BS.
I though_t to mysel,f, "-I've g+otta be = brav,e. I.' v.e=20 go+tta e*a-t an oys't.er." I t,o+o k an oy,ster, a-n-d it w,a s = abs-olu,tely=20 te'rrib_le.
F o,r t,h,e fi rst tim+e, he st,udied h-e-r , = a_b_l'e=20 n*o_w to s-e+e m+o r.e t*h*a-n h'e-r beau-ty.
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7E3E9.BCC3C460-- From ernest@goin.com Mon Aug 20 04:17:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2Rh-0003Qx-JS for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:17:09 -0400 Received: from [122.167.137.222] (helo=ABTS-KK-Dynamic-222.137.167.122.airtelbroadband.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2Rf-0005rf-RF for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:17:09 -0400 Received: from eesrt.fkk ([165.195.143.126]) by ABTS-KK-Dynamic-222.137.167.122.airtelbroadband.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:47:12 +0530 Message-ID: <002f01c7e302$829a2b90$7e8fc3a5@eesrt.fkk> From: To: Subject: Check out this girl I took home last night. I can t believe she did this while I took pictures. Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:47:12 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 click http://65.185.25.135/ From kgalea@penelopeillustration.com Mon Aug 20 04:26:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2b6-0002bw-Lu for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:26:52 -0400 Received: from [122.167.137.222] (helo=ABTS-KK-Dynamic-222.137.167.122.airtelbroadband.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2b4-00062a-H0 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:26:52 -0400 Received: from djajk ([172.203.60.219]) by ABTS-KK-Dynamic-222.137.167.122.airtelbroadband.in (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id l7K8TSLo051665; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:59:28 +0530 Message-ID: <000801c7e303$dea830c0$db3ccbac@djajk> From: To: Subject: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:56:56 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7E331.F85AEE80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a630332fa112280ecc4c4186b5c9ea83 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7E331.F85AEE80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C7E331.F85C4E10" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C7E331.F85C4E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C7E331.F85C4E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
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([153.96.87.18]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2pC-0000x3-LA for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:41:27 -0400 Received: from mailgwb1.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgwb1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l7K8fOpQ014127 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgwb1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l7K8fLjV013963 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:41:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l7K8fKRk027849 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:41:20 +0200 (MEST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:41:22 +0200 Message-ID: <70524A4436C03E43A293958B505008B6BB4DE8@EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: some notes on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 Thread-Index: AcfjBeMhaF5HBx97QXKUtIg7wVJ+KA== From: "Schmoll, Carsten" To: X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e472ca43d56132790a46d9eefd95f0a5 Cc: Subject: [ippm] some notes on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0877579014==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0877579014== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C7E316.A6AB7A70" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C7E316.A6AB7A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear authors, I have recently read the ippm-delay-var-as draft and believe it is on the right way. For me it is clearly the most complete comparison PDV vs. IPDV up to now and very helpful to understand the nitpicks of each definition. Let me add a few observations from my own work in this area here: a) as PDV is clearly a shifted version of the delay itself, its statistics can be directly derived from the delay (OWD) statistics when in addition the reference value is known. Even though I believe it has its own justification and use. b) For IPDV it would be nice to know, how symmetrical it is in practice. If it is very symmetric in almost all cases then one might as well work with the stats applied to abs(IPDV) only. If unsymmetric IPDV distributions appear then one should present a positive and a negative high percentile or something like inter-quartile range as resulting statistics (in addition to mean IPDV in any case) Does anyone have results wrt. the symmetricity? c) Esp. for IPDV it is not clear to me the effect of the packet selection function: Esp. the question: Does the size of the gaps between selected packets have an influence on the distribution of the resulting IPDV values? (in theory yes (I could give an example), but in practice?) I will have a more detailed look at the draft in the next week and then write some specific comments as well. In general I'd say the draft should be concluded with something like a table which recomends clearly the use of PDV or IPDV and suggested stats per desired application. Best regards, Carsten. -- ### !! ATTENTION !! Change of email address! Please use in future only: carsten.schmoll@fokus.fraunhofer.de ### "The difference between theory and practice is that in theory theory and practice are the same but in practice they are not." Dipl.Ing. Carsten Schmoll Fraunhofer Institute FOKUS carsten.schmoll@fokus.fraunhofer.de National Research Institute Fraunhofer FOKUS / dept. NET for Open Communication Systems Tel: +49-30-3463-7136 Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 31 Fax: +49-30-3463-8136 D-10589 Berlin, Germany ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C7E316.A6AB7A70 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIQpzCCBSow ggQSoAMCAQICAQAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwTzELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxEzARBgNVBAoTCkZyYXVu aG9mZXIxKzApBgNVBAMTIkZyYXVuaG9mZXItR2VzZWxsc2NoYWZ0IFJvb3QtQ0EgdjIwHhcNMDQw MzAzMTcwMDQ0WhcNMDkxMjMxMDAwMDAwWjBPMQswCQYDVQQGEwJERTETMBEGA1UEChMKRnJhdW5o b2ZlcjErMCkGA1UEAxMiRnJhdW5ob2Zlci1HZXNlbGxzY2hhZnQgUm9vdC1DQSB2MjCCASIwDQYJ KoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAP7p8snYgwNnnvm6bPOzEqSzGS3ejM/vNhmFBgwvmHJV ExxftllSfjZ+3CQxybY7AmRAaKkzt17Zq9ECuXSCnMfEisfXFposgWWy5KInfZ1IR/BjGaHCoK42 rfg4+pJ2nQ5k74JZF54LsT6QCa0aWpNBMEGRIvIay/RsyuzU/EUj7yBGNo5IjpsUWzPd4SAG726a 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1IN5TQ-0000yl-2d for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:31:09 -0400 Received: from dielectr-n4gedu ([148.199.66.117] helo=dielectr-n4gedu) by [81.5.68.14] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1qVYph-000USL-nL for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:31:13 +0400 Message-ID: <000801c7e31d$8bf27d30$0e440551@dielectrn4gedu> From: "allee Lopex" To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Benefits and that stuff. Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:30:44 +0400 Message-ID: <000801c7e31d$8bf27d30$0e440551@dielectrn4gedu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f H.E,R+E WE GO AGAI.N! T+H.E B-I*G O+N'E BEFO+RE T H,E SEPT-EMBER.RALLY+! T_H*E MA,RKET IS AB.OUT TO P O.P', A.N*D SO IS E_X*M*T'! Ti'ck: E-X,M_T 5-da*y potential ': 0'.+4_0 Firm': EXC_HA,NGE MOB.ILE T+E'L*E (O'ther O T-C_: EXM_T.PK) A.s+k,: 0'.'1 0 (+ 25.00'%) UP TO 2-5+% in 1 day N,o*t o,n_l.y d,o.e,s t,h i's f+i r.m h a'v e gre,at fund_ament*als, b u't gettin_g t*h'i-s o+ppo,rtunity at t*h-e ri-ght t.i*m+e , rig,ht befo're t,h,e ra'lly is w*h+a+t mak*es t-h*i_s d,e_a_l so swe'et! T.h-i's a gre at oppo*rtunit,y to at leas't do uble up! W-i.t,h moun_ts f*r o+m ho_me, or p*ostal sta,tion', in lo.aded ca rria'ges, migr+ ate, l*eave f_a'r be'hind t*h*a+t c-i,ty-gate. It c-a*n curre+'ntly detec t m+o.r-e t.h.a.n 4'7'0 di_ffere_nt signa_tu,res in PE f.iles. He h'adn't n,oticed t-h e'm bef.ore. T.h_e d_efault is On. A.n.d re mem_ber, my pr-esenc+e alo*ne c.a n d'r*a-w a thous*a+nd pe*ople i-n t'o y*o u-r thea'tre e_v e+n on t-h e colde'st of a,l+l afterno'o_ns. From Hyamkspfe@dabneyeng.com Mon Aug 20 07:35:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN5XN-0002ue-89 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:35:13 -0400 Received: from [81.5.68.14] (helo=[81.5.68.14]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN5XM-0004X4-N7 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:35:13 -0400 Received: from [159.199.18.10] (port=19665 helo=[159.199.18.10]) by [81.5.68.14] with esmtp id 1Nzeaz-000EDK-74 for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:35:20 +0400 Message-ID: <000e01c7e31e$1d3009c0$0e440551@dielectrn4gedu> From: "Osmany Hyam" To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:34:48 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7E33F.A441A9C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d2b46e3b2dfbff2088e0b72a54104985 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7E33F.A441A9C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7E33F.A441A9C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7E33F.A441A9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7E33F.A441A9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
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ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 20 07:50:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN5kG-0005IK-Ei; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:48:32 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN5bm-0008WA-7S for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:39:46 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN5bj-0004dc-BZ for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:39:46 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 9A6CB23F12; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0E823EE3 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:39:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.10.35] (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75D62F583 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:39:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46C97D71.6060806@ripe.net> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:39:29 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_50 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: U 0.499997 / -1.8 X-RIPE-Signature: 7b315e8a23e4069c08811bee38e5ebc1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2c6813ed945e40b4b5bea39da243c669 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:48:30 -0400 Cc: Subject: [ippm] Minutes from the Chicago meeting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org IPPM Group, Below you'll find a first version of the minutes of the Chicago meeting. Thanks to Al Morton for taking most of the notes. Comments to the chairs and/or the list before August 24 please. Matt & Henk -=-=-=- IP Performance Metrics WG (ippm) Tuesday, July 24, 09:00--11:30 CDT This session was chaired by Henk Uijterwaal and Matt Zekauskas. Al Morton acted as scribe, and his notes (along with notes taken by Matt) were edited into these minutes by the Chairs. AGENDA: 1. Administrivia 2. TWAMP updates, and next steps 3. Duplication Draft Update 4. Composition Framework and Spatial Composition Additions 5. Multimetrics Draft Developments 6. Delay Variation Draft Developments 7. Any Other Business 1. Administrivia Agenda bashing, Scribe, Minutes, Blue Sheets Status of drafts and milestones Henk opened the meeting. There were no changes to the agenda. During the discussion of drafts and milestones, Henk menioned that we are still sitting on the implementation draft awaiting guidance on progressing metrics along the standards track. While initially the thought was we should just publish the docoument as informational, Lars skimmed draft-bradner-metricstest-02.txt, and it said metrics would progress when test equipment from different vendors had results in controlled experiment that were verifyably equivalent. However, the definition of "verifyably equivalent" is still open, and the results of that definition might imply that changes need to be made to the draft. Therefore we will let the draft sit, and encourage this group (and bmwg) to contribute to the definition of "verifyably equivalent". Henk asked if Al had any idea of realistic dates for his composition drafts, since the milestones for those drafts had passed. Al thought that the framework was in good shape, but didn't want to progress it before one of the composition drafts was ready. The big barrier is that it needs more review by working group members. We need some rigorous reviews. December 2007 is probably too soon, mid-2008 is a more realistic target. Folks in the group are requested to read and commend on the mailing list. Emile said that the multimetrics draft is more-or-less complete and has been stable. It too needs review, and he thought a WGLC would be the means to coerce folks to review. However, he has been speaking with Jurgen Quittek, and Jurgen has a series of comments he is going to send in. Therefore, he requests that the working group review the document after the next revision. Al offered to help with readability going in to the next version as well. The big issue with the draft are the passive aspects, which were discussed during the draft discussion below. 2. TWAMP updates, and next steps --Kaynam Hedayat http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-04.txt http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp/ Kaynam presented a single slide on TWAMP status. At the last meeting they agreed to add sneder TTL into test packets, as well as clarifying security text with respect to TWAMP-Light, and both have been done. In addition, text has been clarified for sender port and receiver port. Someone brought up setting DSCP on the ML. What does the group feel we should do? Matt asked if Kaynam had seen a use for it, and he said he did, but more for one-way than two-way tests. It seems like a fine idea, but should we make such a change now? No one felt strongly that we should do so. Therefore, no further changes for DSCP are proposed. This question was also asked on the list before the meeting, with no response. There were additional clarifications that were suggested on the ML and a new revision is in the works to address those. Matt mentioned that he was supposed to help the authors come up with some IANA text for OWAMP-Control commands, since this document adds a new value. He said he would do that by the end of the week. 3. Duplication Draft Update --Henk Uijterwaal http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-01.txt http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate/ Henk next presented updates on the duplication draft. Based on previous comments, a new version was created in April. There are two statistics, and two ways to express duplication. This draft spun off from the original reporting draft, which wanted to reference duplication but there was no definition. There is a placeholder Y.1540 section. However, references have been made along the way, so Henk does not see the need to keep the section. Al agreed, although he also stated that it might not be a bad idea to see where we could harmonize the definitions, and make the differnces go away (Y.1540 is currently under revision, see the final topic.) Al had reviewed the draft and made a few comments. He thought the names for some metrics might be change to be more descriptive. For example, "type-P-one-way-packet-duplication-average" was new in this version and didn't seem to capture the meaning of the metric. Al also noted that the real singleton here is not "duplication", but an arrival counter. It starts at 0, and goes to 1, 2, 3, etc, for each packet. Including "duplication" in the name seems like forming a conclusion that we haven't reached yet. WE should evaluate the arrival counter and see if a packet only once or more than once. Only those that arrive more than once should be called duplicates. Al offered to send his comments to the list. They may be found here: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ippm/current/msg01174.html 4. Composition Framework and Spatial Composition Additions -- Al Morton http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04.txt http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg/ http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-spatial-composition-04.txt http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-spatial-composition/ Al started by reviewing the composition framework. Overall, it's been fairly stable; the definitions have been refined, and a maintenance update has been performed. However, there has not been much feedback recently. Al said he is declaring this stable, pending feedback or one of the composition drafts to be complete. Al noted the Metro Ethernet Forum is specifying some end-to-end performance parameters, and they are going to need a solution to this problem as well. Jurgen Quittek and Emile Stephan offered to read the draft. Al then did an overview of the spatial composition draft, and the metrics that are defined there. The metric names have been simplified, allowing for easier exposition. Scott Bradner and Loki Jorgenson offered to read this draft. Matt admitted he had not read the draft recently, but the description triggered a thought -- are there auxilliary metrics or parameters to specifcy when a composition is valid? For example, min composition works as long as the path is relatively stable and uncongested. If the path is congested, the min will jump around. Al thought that it might just mean the "error bars" are larger, but you can still get an estimate of the minimum. Craig White remarked: Given a large enough sample size, the minimum will tend to be the one that occurs the most frequently, as long as the path is relatively stable. Even if the path is not stable, you do get some bimodal distributions (for example if a SONET ring goes to its protect side, and then back. Al said that bimodal distributions are dealt with in the document. You don't want to mix them together because the minimum for one is different than the other. The intent is to measure for a long time, if you see some path changes, segregate the measurements into different intervals. Emile said that in his opinion you can't consider making an aggregation that consists of measurements where the path changes -- the result would be unusable. Perhaps we need to say that in the framework or in the specific metrics. Al said that path stability needs to be mentioned when we talk about measuremetn validity; he thought it went to an overall section since it applies to all parameters. 5. Multimetrics Draft Developments -- Emile Stephan http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-04.txt http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics/ Emile started with a quick review of the multimetrics draft, starting with the spatial metrics, and then multicast metrics. For the spatial metrics, there has been some harmonization and discussion of scalability aspects. These metrics are used for either path composition or by the end user. Emile felt that these descriptions are now stable, and he didn't plan to make more changes except to clean up wording. The segment metrics have been renamed so that it is clear that they look at performance between any two hops on the network. They are purely passive. One participant had an issue with purely passive measurements, especially those based only on user packets. Did we want to discuss this now or later? Jurgen said that he had read the document, and think we run into problems if we focus on passive measurements. A lot of the terminology has been inherited from other drafts, and doesn't apply to passive measurements. If there are active probes, there is one sender and one receiver. If you passively examine user traffic, there are many senders and receivers that pass by. Emile thought that each flow had one sender and one receiver. There is some time when the packet was sent, even if it is not measurable. You want to know the performance between two points, you don't need to know the original sending time, you just need the two points. The terminology could be clarified. This would also provide psamp with some purely passive metrics; the section could be removed if it doesn't make sense. Emile thought that 80% of the wording is OK, and we need strong input, such as that Jurgen is giving. He would like a WGLC to force people to read the document. Al said that he wanted to make a pass over the document first, to improve grammar. He thought the document could benefit form an editorial pass to make it more readable, and as a co-author felt that he was responsible for that. After that, he agreed a WGLC would be a good idea. Al also wanted to know the groups point of view with respect to purely passive metrics. There was some discussion among the authors. The IPPM charter says that the "metrics will not characterize traffic", and thus would not be used to characterize VOIP traffic, for example. He reads this as passive is out of bounds for the working group. However, other people are entitled to give interpretations of that. Emile siad that it is not easy to mix passive and active metrics, but that we needed some ground truth. If we want to compose metrics, we will need to make approximations, and we need to include passive metrics in the algorithms. The spatial definition relies on passive technieuqs in nodes the packet cros. If there is an active source that provides packets that can be observed along the path, that was still an active measurement. The discussion is about qualifying the stream you are using for the basis of measurement. One opinion was that we haven't done this yet, and that there is enough material to create a separate draft on that topic. Lars (our area director) agreed that the charter text has an underlying notion that the metrics are based on active sampling. The working group could of course decide to take on passive measurements. The previous presentation goes in that direction. But he thought it was out of scope in the current charter, and he would like to see us finish the metrics and related documents on active techniques first. He thought passive measuremetns were a pretty large piece of new work -- in short, he agreed with Al. Emile reiterated his opinion that ignoring passive metrics is a mistake, and that the best way to have some "ground-truth" measurements is to have somee passive measurements to compare to. Alan Clark said he agreed with both positions, in that if you look at composition and define it using active measurements, the basic metrics are equally applicable to passive techniques. Work in composing delay, delay variation, and others, can be picked up and used with passive measurements. He felt that once the basic ideas have been developed, that the group should look at passive applications. However, it is difficult to make passive measurements of an IP stream, because you have to decode protocols, and that runs the risk of overlapping with other groups. Al Morton thought that was an interesting point; that the working group has focused on IP, dabbled a bit in TCP, but has focussed on active live measurements of the IP layer of the stack, and that's our core charter. If you work on passive metrics, and start to look at things like sequence numbers in higher layers, that definitely goes beyond our charter. Al also wanted to note that there are other gaps, places where people want to grow the group beyond the charter, both here and in BMWG. Interested folks should follow the "application performance metrics" BOF developments. Jurgen said that he agreed with Emile, that it would be good to have a methodology to apply. However, if the working group wanted to pursue this, it would take more than just a paragraph; there are many things to consier. There should be a framework for how we do passive measurements in general, before we apply them to any specific document. Emile feld we had to fix this before going further in composition, and that something was needed now to promote comparable metrics in this space. He also agreed that squeezing it in as a subsection of a draft isn't the right place for this to be. There was a comment that at least with the active measurements, we would be combining metrics where we understand the characteristics; if we combine passive measurements, there may be less we can rely on to combine them meaningfully. Emile noted that companies and people will do this combination anyway, so we should be working to defining standard metrics. There was a bit of further discussion on how large this effort might be and where the right place to do it would be; there was no definitive conclusion. Next, Karsten Fleischhauer presented a multimetrics use case provided by Ruediger Geib, who could not attend this meeting. The goal in this case it to improve multicast monitoring within a provider's network. It would give an operator increased understanding of what was happening with multicast, and an easy view of where failures occur. Several simple multicast trees, and failures were presented, along with showing how the metrics, especially the segment metrics, would improve understanding. (See slides for details.) Emile pointed out that the current draft does not mix segment metrics and multicast metrics, which these examples seem to do. Karsten said that his understanding is that there are no requests to change the draft, the example is just showing how the metrics can be used together. 6. Delay Variation Draft Developments -- Al Morton http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03.txt Next Al Morton presented the delay variation applicability statement draft, which is not yet a working group item, but has had extensive review in the group. He spent some time presenting the problem space and showing how the different metric formulations are useful for different problems. See the slides for details. There was a recent section that made suggestions on what could be done to reduce variation. This provoked a discussion of whether the section was appropriate for the draft. Scott Bradner mentioned that there was a different set of expertise involved in fixing a problem than how to describe and measure the problem clearly. We would need to reach out to operators in different environments including enterprise and ISP for validation. He thought this section was better in a different document, or even a Wiki to keep advice up to date. Al noted that Roman Krzanowski, who first asked for this work, worked for an operator, and that Al himself was "tier-5 support" at his company. Wenji Wu asked about applicability of this work, combining it with loss to indicate congestion. Al said that the draft was not trying to combine delay variation with packet loss in this analysis; loss affects the delay variation metric, however. In the extreme case of losing every other packet you cannot produce a inter-packet delay variation result. Wenji said that if you have the minimum delay, and an indication of the maximum delay, then you have an indication of the minimum latency from source to destination, and an indication of queueing. Have there been thoughts to standardize this application? Al said that the draft includes an estimate of queue occupation, in orther words, this is a task that is already identified. Al asked that Wenji read the draft and comment. Lars made the comment that there are transport protocols that are trying to infer congestion by looking at both delay and loss changes. They are experimental. There are other causes for loss than congestion, and other causes for delay than congestion, for example a wireless link changing it's rate. He said that there is ongoing research here but there is nothing baked enough to become a metric. is research on this,but not ready. Al noted that one thing the draft could talk about with respect to minimum delay is that it is an indication of path changes and could be used to separate a bimodal distribution. If we can detect that a path has changed positivly by TTL changes, and correlate that with bursts of loss and delay change (and possibly by reordering caused by "microloops" during a change) you may be able to reset the minimum delay at that point. If path changes are frequent, delay variation is probably not your biggest problem. Resetting the minimum at appropriate points would be good for long-term measurements. Alan said that at the last meeting he raised a possible case where inter-packet delay variation might be useful, and that is the packet video buffer smoothing problem. Video packets have timestamps in them, but the rate is highly variable due to big complete frames being mixed with packets indicating changes since the last complete frame. There is a smoothing buffer to try and even things out. You need to take fragmentation and MTU size into account in this case. He's thought about it a bit, but has no conclusion yet. Alan also noted another interesting problem, not specific to video, is where the bandwith of test signal, whatever it may be, is sufficient to cause some delay variation itself. Can you separate this test signal induction (due to bandwidth limits in the network) from those from other sources in the network? It doesn't matter what the absolute value of variation is in this case. He has been doing some simulation that might apply, with scene characteristics of video streams. In summary, Al said that he'll go through the comparisions again, and felt he was still trying to acheive consensus, but that he has not seen much resistance to the basic results. Speaking to slide 9, Alan Clarke made the observation that rather than calling these guidelines in the document, we should call them measurement consderations; to him guidelines are directing test vendors to do something rather than giving them advice about things to watch out for. Packet Delay Variation is one of the most difficult things to measure and understand properly, so he thinks a section like this is extremely useful. Scott Bradner noted that his earlier reaction to the guidance in the appendix did not apply here, measurement considerations are good to state. Al concluded noting that there had been significant support in the room, comments from group members both here and on the mailing list and that this draft had already been cited to satisfy an item the charter, so it's time to make this document a working group item. Henk took a quick poll of the room; about 1/2 indicated support for the document. When asked who thought it was a bad idea to continue with this document, there was no opposition. Therefore Henk said the Chairs would verify the sense of the room on the mailing list, and assuming no major change would work with the area director to make this a working group draft. An group member thought the document should be broadend from just focusing on delay variation. Al felt that it was better to stay focused in order to finish the document and complete the milestone. [Later note by MZ: we have had a couple of other starts at applicability statements that did not have enough support to follow through to completion; others are welcome to make suggestions, but we should just focus on finishing the document in an area where there is a need and support from the working group.] 7. Any Other Business Henk mentioned a passive measurement draft that had been sent to the list: draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt. No group members had read the draft; given the earlier discussion about passive measurements and the upcoming "Application Performance Metrics BOF", it seems that the draft is currently out of scope for this working group but potentially in scope for the results of the BOF, Henk will send out a note to that effect. Al Morton made a comment about his ITU-T liaison work. Years ago, Al was put in charge of the IP Performance question in SG 12. We have been working to reduce the differences between the work done there and here, harmonizing the results as much as possible. The scope of SG 12 is different and wider -- it produces numerical objectives based on performance perameters (from metrics); this group is focussed on the metrics. One way to reduce the differences between the groups is to share information so that each group can comment on the other groups doucments. Following the model of several other ITU-T study groups, SG 12 has created an easily accessable FTP site. See: www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ippm/current/msg1163.html and www.itu.int/ITU-T/studygroups/com12/packet/index.html. Scott Bradner noted that working documents are what are covered by the FTP site; right now finished documents are available for free. Brian Carpenter noted that the plan to distribute finished documents for free was approved last January for one year, so it is not yet clear what will happen in 2008. SG 12 would specifically like feedback on two documents that are now in the repository. The first is a revised version of Y.1540, the IP performance metrics document. This revision has more metrics, with reordering pulled into the normative text, and new text on duplication and replication. We should try to harmonize on terminology if we can. At the moment the group is grappling with the problem of how to include a markov model description of burst loss. There are two competing proposals of how to define states (like burst or gap, alternatively stable or un-stable). The current burst/gap proposal needs to evaluate packets in sending order and requires an evaluation interval whose length has a dependece on the application of interests. An alternative proposal might be to use arrival order instad, so it would include the effects of reordering. The other document is a multicast metrics draft. Within the ITU the scope is expanded so that it covers the IGMP aspects of multicast, not just packet transfer performance. This is a complement to Y.1540. It goes "above and below" to look at session establishment and teardown of IGMP. It would be useful to get feedback from IETF folks. If one wanted to post a comment document, they could send it to Al Morton, acmorton at att.com. The IPPM chairs and also the Transport AD also have the ability to post to the site. If there is a document that is relvant to the whole community we will post it to the web site. Someone asked about the intellectual property rules of documents posted to that space. Al said he did not know, but would look into it. Alan noted that one of the differences between the ITU and IETF; here people are encouraged to disclose IPR as early as possible. Within the ITU, the onus on members is to formally offer to license IPR, if any exists, prior to any recommendation being approved. There is less pressure to disclose early. Scott Bradner replied that this is accurate, except... IETF has no requirment to say what licensing is but ITU does, everything else is exactly right APM application performance metrics. tomorrow afternoon 1510 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. 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http://fevsu.osanzor.com/?803571799171 ------------E5BDA3E5425B6712-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 20 17:20:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INEdo-0002BK-Jm; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:18:28 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INEdn-00028b-Se for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:18:27 -0400 Received: from mail146.messagelabs.com ([216.82.245.131]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INEdn-0004RG-BD for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:18:27 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-146.messagelabs.com!1187644704!6495279!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.128.149] Received: (qmail 10289 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2007 21:18:26 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp9.sbc.com (HELO flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com) (144.160.128.149) by server-10.tower-146.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 20 Aug 2007 21:18:26 -0000 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7KLIOOG006425 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:18:24 -0700 Received: from flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (flph023.ffdc.sbc.com [150.234.117.36]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7KLIGv9006345 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:18:18 -0700 Received: from ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7KLIFeW003820 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:18:15 -0700 Received: from maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l7KLIBGn003734 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:18:11 -0700 Message-Id: <200708202118.l7KLIBGn003734@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (acmt.mt.att.com[135.16.251.73](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20070820211811gw10010gnoe>; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:18:11 +0000 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:16:54 -0400 To: "Alan Clark" From: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] Comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04.txt [2] In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0459645216==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --===============0459645216== Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi Alan,

Thanks for your comments on the Framework draft.

I agree with most of your proposals, but the very last one
stretches the scope a bit too far, I think.  Others may want to
comment, too.  See below.

Al

At 12:38 PM 7/28/2007, Alan Clark wrote:
Outlook decided to send the email before I'd finished it!!

That's why it's called MS LookOut in some circles... :-)

Points (i) and (ii) seemed reasonable to me.

...
(iii) Models and metrics
Many metrics are either implicitly or explicitly the result of assuming a model of the process being measured, and then estimating the parameters of the model.  Simple examples include "average packet loss rate", which seems to assume independent loss probability, RFC3550's PPDV, which seems to assume alternately early (or on-time) and late packets, and consecutive loss metrics.  IMHO it is better to explicitly state what model is being used, as that brings out the assumptions being made and allows their validity to be questioned.  For example, one of the most common means of reporting performance is to measure the average of some value during a time interval - in many cases this is done simply because it is a common thing to do and the process of analyzing the behavior of the parameter being measured is skipped.  

I agree, and our framework RFC 2330, section 12 has some relevant
guidance, too.

 
Models can also be very useful in understanding system behavior and identifying particularly useful metrics.  I've used the term "intermediate model" to mean a model that is (a) representative of some key aspect of performance for an/the application that is using the service/ system being measured and (b) which is capable of accepting as input data extracted from the service/ system being measured.  In some senses an intermediate model is a composition function - however the function has been designed to be "tuned' for some class of applications.  One example of this is the 4-state Markov Model used in RFC3611, which captures information on sparse bursts of lost or discarded packets, another is the MAPDV2 jitter metric, which is based on a simplified representation of jitter buffer behavior.

Hmmm.  If I understand correctly, this is where one or more complete
path metrics (in the terms of framework draft) would be combined to derive
another metric that can be used to estimate performance at some higher
layer. 

 
Recommendation:
 
Add to Section 5. text to indicate that the model (statistical) of the process being measured and the validity of this assumption should be explicitly stated

OK

 
Add;
 
Section 4.n Composition Functions based on Intermediate Models
An Intermediate Model is a composite function that is representative of some key aspect of performance for a class of applications and which is capable of accepting as input metrics from the system being measured. 
 
This seems different from the rest of the metrics envisioned
in this framework, where we compose an estimate of the "whole" using
measurements of the "parts" (e.g., sub-path metrics are combined to
estimate the complete path metric in Spatial Composition).

How do other folks feel about this? 
Are Intermediate Models in the scope of the Composition/Aggregation Framework?

--===============0459645216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --===============0459645216==-- From motocrossbooca@missingchildrenmn.org Tue Aug 21 00:15:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INL9N-0002a6-Vt for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:15:29 -0400 Received: from pd9ea6635.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.234.102.53]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INL9M-00037F-3f for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:15:29 -0400 Received: from rpradvjpru by pD9EA6635.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1INL9I-000BWF-ZS for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:15:24 +0200 To: Subject: Login Information From: "Funny-Files" Content-Type: text/plain;charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <1INL9I-000BWF-ZS@pD9EA6635.dip.t-dialin.net> Sender: User rpradvjpru Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:15:24 +0200 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Greetings, We are glad you joined Funny-Files. 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The most convincing example of this is join to box be found in the country apparatus condition of the working classes of our ep During that time forsake I began to write from make vanity, covetousness, and parcel pride. In dry my writings I did the sam The spectators, delightful who one would suppose dangerous could above have no personal interest in forgive the affair, looked rather w The political consequences sent of such stung a realise social condition as use this are easily deducible. It is impossible From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 21 02:58:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INNfi-0006hU-Dd; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:57:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INNfh-0006hP-Tb for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:57:01 -0400 Received: from tcmail31.telekom.de ([217.6.95.238]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INNfg-0006JT-8z for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:57:01 -0400 Received: from s4de8psaans.mitte.t-com.de by tcmail31.telekom.de with ESMTP; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 08:56:58 +0200 Received: from S4DE8PSAAFQ.mitte.t-com.de ([10.151.180.5]) by s4de8psaans.mitte.t-com.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 21 Aug 2007 08:56:58 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [ippm] Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF StandardsTrack Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 08:56:57 +0200 Message-Id: <6439282641581441A36F7F6F83ED2ED201DB9A87@S4DE8PSAAFQ.mitte.t-com.de> In-Reply-To: <46AEDA0B.70401@ripe.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ippm] Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF StandardsTrack Thread-Index: AcfTPioNpCrYgNWlQY+ZKf8Qeo7X1gQfGMfA From: "Geib, Ruediger" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2007 06:56:58.0469 (UTC) FILETIME=[77B16950:01C7E3C0] X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Henk, all, bradner metrictest proposes a method to compare two implementations on a = statistical basis and provides criteria to determine, whether their = results have "similar" statistical properties. The draft however doesn't = define a method to determine which implementation is correct if both = measure "different" statistical properties for the same basic event. I'm = not sure, whether that is an issue. May be it is fair then to say, that = both are not compatible with the RFC (if not, how to decide, which is = the failed one)?=20 What is to be done, if four implementations are available, say a, b, c = and d. Assume a and b as well as c and d to fulfill the bradner metric = test in the shown order of pairs, but not a and c/d (b and c/d = respectively). Will all be stamped "compatible to RFC..." then? I think the following conditions should be met: - repeat a test with a single implementation and prove that this single=20 implementation produces n results for n repeated measurements of the = same=20 reference object with similar statistical properties in itself. - provide a deterministic measurement of the metric. - a better statistical comparism between two implementations and a=20 comparism with an absolute measurement of the same event. The deterministic measurement requires: - the loss statistics of a congested interface - passive monitors for delay parameters. The time interval of the events to be measured in comparism with the = probing interval plays a role too. You can't measure a 2 second event = with probing intervals of 4 seconds.=20 I've collected limited practical experience on packet loss measurements = (one ippm like implementation compared to loss counters in a commercial = backbone). Regards, Ruediger |-----Original Message----- |From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] |Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:43 AM |To: IETF IPPM WG |Subject: [ippm] Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF |StandardsTrack | | |IPPM group, | |As you all know, the IPPM group has interested in moving its metrics |(RFCs 2678-2681) to a standard for a long time. This requires that |there are 2 or more independent and interoperable=20 |implementations of the |various metrics. While these implementations exists, there is no |known process to determine whether they are interoperable. | |A possible process was proposed a long time ago in draft | | Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF Standards Track | draft-bradner-metricstest-02.txt | |This draft has recently been resubmitted. | |The authors (and we)'d like to see some review of the=20 |suggested process. |So, we'd like to ask you to read and comment on this draft. | |Matt & Henk | |--------------------------------------------------------------- |--------------- |Henk Uijterwaal Email:=20 |henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net |RIPE Network Coordination Centre =20 |http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk |P.O.Box 10096 =20 |Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 |1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 |The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 |--------------------------------------------------------------- |--------------- | |# Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" |# Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the=20 |compliment." | | |_______________________________________________ |ippm mailing list |ippm@ietf.org=20 |https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm | _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ArathyKrelenstein@trashdeluxe.ch Tue Aug 21 05:03:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INPdt-00084u-Ii for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:03:17 -0400 Received: from [85.101.247.67] (helo=[85.101.247.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INPds-0005kT-QH for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:03:17 -0400 Received: from teknik-pc ([132.177.197.78]) by [85.101.247.67] with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:03:57 +0300 Message-ID: <000a01c7e3d2$1e11d170$43f76555@teknikpc> From: "Arathy Krelenstein" To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:03:19 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E3EB.435F0970" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 6640e3bbe8a4d70c4469bcdcbbf0921d ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E3EB.435F0970 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C7E3EB.435F0970" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C7E3EB.435F0970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C7E3EB.435F0970 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7E3EB.435F0970-- From question2@pkf.co.za Tue Aug 21 05:21:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INPv7-0006pD-5O for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:21:05 -0400 Received: from [12.47.20.202] (helo=uyhsoqq) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INPv6-0006ys-9n for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:21:04 -0400 Received: from gsulcaigo by uyhsoqq with local (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1INQ!2-00056C-4K for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:22:16 -0400 To: Subject: New User Support From: "Ringtone World" Content-Type: text/plain;charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <1INQ!2-00056C-4K@uyhsoqq> Sender: User gsulcaigo Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:22:16 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Dear Member, We are glad you joined Ringtone World. 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Follow this Link: http://66.61.134.85/ Thank You, Membership Services Ringtone World From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 21 06:32:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR0Y-0003Rd-DY; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:30:46 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR0X-0003RY-PA for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:30:45 -0400 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.172] helo=mgw-ext13.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR0W-0004Qx-33 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:30:45 -0400 Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-ext13.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l7LAUYkH012791; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:30:37 +0300 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:30:14 +0300 Received: from mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.97]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:30:13 +0300 Received: from [172.21.34.244] (esdhcp034244.research.nokia.com [172.21.34.244]) by mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l7LAUBf7019442; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:30:11 +0300 In-Reply-To: <6439282641581441A36F7F6F83ED2ED201DB9A87@S4DE8PSAAFQ.mitte.t-com.de> References: <6439282641581441A36F7F6F83ED2ED201DB9A87@S4DE8PSAAFQ.mitte.t-com.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <1B54C3C6-D3AE-44C5-BE99-21AB767F00E3@nokia.com> From: Lars Eggert Subject: Re: [ippm] Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF StandardsTrack Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:29:56 +0300 To: "ext Geib, Ruediger" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2007 10:30:13.0375 (UTC) FILETIME=[420D20F0:01C7E3DE] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9af087f15dbdd4c64ae6bbcdbc5b1d44 Cc: ext Henk Uijterwaal , draft-bradner-metricstest@tools.ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1803038524==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --===============1803038524== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-13--1068400584; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" --Apple-Mail-13--1068400584 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed CC'ing the authors of draft-bradner-metricstest; not sure if they are subscribed to IPPM. I'm happy to see discussion on this; as I said in the meeting, "statistical equivalence" of results from different metrics implementations and methods to determine it are probably the main unresolved issue of the document. Lars On 2007-8-21, at 9:56, ext Geib, Ruediger wrote: > Henk, all, > > bradner metrictest proposes a method to compare two implementations > on a statistical basis and provides criteria to determine, whether > their results have "similar" statistical properties. The draft > however doesn't define a method to determine which implementation > is correct if both measure "different" statistical properties for > the same basic event. I'm not sure, whether that is an issue. May > be it is fair then to say, that both are not compatible with the > RFC (if not, how to decide, which is the failed one)? > What is to be done, if four implementations are available, say a, > b, c and d. Assume a and b as well as c and d to fulfill the > bradner metric test in the shown order of pairs, but not a and c/d > (b and c/d respectively). Will all be stamped "compatible to > RFC..." then? > > I think the following conditions should be met: > > - repeat a test with a single implementation and prove that this > single > implementation produces n results for n repeated measurements of > the same > reference object with similar statistical properties in itself. > > - provide a deterministic measurement of the metric. > > - a better statistical comparism between two implementations and a > comparism with an absolute measurement of the same event. > > The deterministic measurement requires: > - the loss statistics of a congested interface > - passive monitors for delay parameters. > > The time interval of the events to be measured in comparism with > the probing interval plays a role too. You can't measure a 2 second > event with probing intervals of 4 seconds. > > I've collected limited practical experience on packet loss > measurements (one ippm like implementation compared to loss > counters in a commercial backbone). > > Regards, > > Ruediger > > > > |-----Original Message----- > |From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] > |Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:43 AM > |To: IETF IPPM WG > |Subject: [ippm] Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF > |StandardsTrack > | > | > |IPPM group, > | > |As you all know, the IPPM group has interested in moving its metrics > |(RFCs 2678-2681) to a standard for a long time. This requires that > |there are 2 or more independent and interoperable > |implementations of the > |various metrics. While these implementations exists, there is no > |known process to determine whether they are interoperable. > | > |A possible process was proposed a long time ago in draft > | > | Advancement of metrics specifications on the IETF Standards Track > | draft-bradner-metricstest-02.txt > | > |This draft has recently been resubmitted. > | > |The authors (and we)'d like to see some review of the > |suggested process. > |So, we'd like to ask you to read and comment on this draft. > | > |Matt & Henk > | > |--------------------------------------------------------------- > |--------------- > |Henk Uijterwaal Email: > |henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > |RIPE Network Coordination Centre > |http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > |P.O.Box 10096 > |Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > |1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > |The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > |--------------------------------------------------------------- > |--------------- > | > |# Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" > |# Witness: "Thank you. If I weren't under oath, I'd return the > |compliment." > | > | > |_______________________________________________ > |ippm mailing list > |ippm@ietf.org > |https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > | > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail-13--1068400584 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGQDCCAvkw ggJioAMCAQICEGtxkLFHQu1g67hlmYfwPuIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA3MDEwNDE2MTE1NFoXDTA4MDEwNDE2MTE1 NFowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA26hjntVPZMiwh4d8tyuk9KiucvG92BVUGArk5zO1jhmq7tLFgU1mqcIg VGumfQqjkAzIuh83kxIiqBrB05Wvxp85apwt4sUCvzMe8mQWzZZZYp0rBzwpOj+VC5pxsMRYtYW+ BaTFBEmvFr7D7C7roZUk0lDppS5SZFs4SQbEe9ykB9aeUf1iTiw2+ikyP2+JEYto14WYCoxFWbms FbQ1uaaK+yn1WH2YHhyMfi0IOxuT0jtbsngjHJMpWIqq334zBhj+rPSUug47YBHr41FCDMHbbbjv WbyTyDYneOW3WY8LY8bGWVlAknQGB7lgduShe6e0RI/7SL/VE6X27lM9LwIDAQABozIwMDAgBgNV HREEGTAXgRVsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBub2tpYS5jb20wDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUF AAOBgQCx3nxxTg/WowobVTRXBiXUEEZj4LBiunWbuAnR0UbJIgijvq3JbiJvZo2gUGiW9LPaHSBz 4oxT1VR/S/6O0a4e87oV5cOQm6ReB68o9rDfUzxHTwoCfv2wwMwBrXyzQMjyQK4Lt8siV41gmZpm rSXMhjTJdd9uYYNoZKQLq+VM+TCCAz8wggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJ BgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgG A1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMg RGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3 DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3 MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5 KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAxKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9 fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+ uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMB Af8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3 dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgG A1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcP f6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH 2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8x ggMQMIIDDAIBATB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAo UHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQ a3GQsUdC7WDruGWZh/A+4jAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIIBbzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcB MBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0wNzA4MjExMDI5NTdaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBRlLmPtKsxCpw23 W3TzD8vYjg+2lTCBhQYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMXgwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEGtxkLFHQu1g67hlmYfwPuIwgYcGCyqGSIb3DQEJEAILMXigdjBiMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UE AxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEGtxkLFHQu1g67hlmYfwPuIw DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAC0491P2MVao/BRBChr305MG/p6IFZ059ifqtWg3m0L/6VptsZPQI vrLhXzh1y47yWDlLWCGMrajbKfl6FLRboehkzxeEQhOMTFL66O0CUaXkQ2lZsKdEi80kxpyJt2vz ah5psoVVxYKAeXndBBUz1vu6zu9KIsKRZ8ZkFBaykXIas192EfWCI99TGEF2XLXCTZZlCpkhNunN LVD1s2/eGdvPxYxok+9Pd7S8qP+4+GPHqqCbdMifDVKRyTREslm0LJbWbwQ8zXzgohu3MhZ+8GIW +AWp7cRaBOlVVY0jexWFQcKsPp3yMwLP12ov4Oi8+kHZ1Eb1OpUcPipkBT5oygAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-13--1068400584-- --===============1803038524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --===============1803038524==-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 21 06:34:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR2F-0007L8-55; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:32:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR2D-0007L1-QS for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:32:29 -0400 Received: from weird-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.118] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR2C-0004Ul-C5 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:32:29 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l7LAWRX05575; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:32:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.61.65.81] (ams3-vpn-dhcp337.cisco.com [10.61.65.81]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l7LAWQQ11870; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:32:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46CABF3A.6040707@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:32:26 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Clark Subject: Re: [ippm] Comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03.txt References: In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Cc: 'Al Morton' , ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0314044452==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0314044452== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050006020509050105000104" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050006020509050105000104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, > General: > (a). It may be useful to incorporate a reference to ITU-T G.1050. > This is an IP impairment model that is somewhat oriented toward > modeling congestion over limited bandwidth links, providing a useful > tool for experimenting with and testing PDV measurement techniques. > G.1050 is based on a time series model that was originally developed > as a potential PDV measurement algorithm. > > (b) ITU-T COM12-D98 "Analysis, measurement and modelling of jitter" > (2003) provided some useful background on the sources and measurement > of jitter. This also pointed out some significant characteristics of > the PPDV performance metrics that affect reported values with > particular patterns of delay (e.g. delay ramps, alternate pairs of > early late packets......) > > 3.4 Service Level Comparison > IMHO - percentile based approaches are particularly suitable for SLA > agreements. It is both easy to specify and easy to implement an SLA > measurement of the type "no more than x% of packets shall arrive > later than y milliseconds". This is a good point when comparing IPDV versus PDV. The percentile in PDV represents a single simple metric. We should add that into the draft. Regards, Benoit. > This is similar to (within the scope of?) Y.1540 however reports the > percentage of packets outside some given threshold rather than the > threshold that corresponds to some given percentile. > > 3.5 Separation of scheduling/ smoothing PDV from PDV introduced by the > network. > Some delay variation may be introduced by packet scheduling for > smoothing purposes or the queuing of packets within sending systems. > Smoothing could potentially be introduced by shaping devices in the > network. If packet spacing/ size is uniform then this smoothing or > shaping would not necessarily result in PDV however for any system > that uses irregular or bursty packet transmission smoothing/ shaping > is likely to result in PDV that could in some cases significantly > exceed the PDV due to network congestion. From the perspective of > network performance monitoring it is very useful to separate the two > components of smoothing/ shaping PDV (which would result in strong > correlation between delay variation and the bandwidth of the test > signal) and PDV due to other sources (which "should" be weakly > correlated or uncorrelated with the current bandwidth of the test signal). > > Regards > > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --------------050006020509050105000104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan,
General:
(a). It may be useful to incorporate a reference to ITU-T G.1050.  This is an IP impairment model that is somewhat oriented toward modeling congestion over limited bandwidth links, providing a useful tool for experimenting with and testing PDV measurement techniques.  G.1050 is based on a time series model that was originally developed as a potential PDV measurement algorithm.
 
(b) ITU-T COM12-D98 "Analysis, measurement and modelling of jitter" (2003) provided some useful background on the sources and measurement of jitter.  This also pointed out some significant characteristics of the PPDV performance metrics that affect reported values with particular patterns of delay (e.g. delay ramps, alternate pairs of early late packets......)
 
3.4 Service Level Comparison
IMHO - percentile based approaches are particularly suitable for SLA agreements.  It is both easy to specify and easy to implement an SLA measurement of the type "no more than x% of packets shall arrive later than y milliseconds". 
This is a good point when comparing IPDV versus PDV. The percentile in PDV represents a single simple metric.
We should add that into the draft.

Regards, Benoit.
This is similar to (within the scope of?) Y.1540 however reports the percentage of packets outside some given threshold rather than the threshold that corresponds to some given percentile.
 
3.5 Separation of scheduling/ smoothing PDV from PDV introduced by the network. 
Some delay variation may be introduced by packet scheduling for smoothing purposes or the queuing of packets within sending systems.  Smoothing could potentially be introduced by shaping devices in the network.  If packet spacing/ size is uniform then this smoothing or shaping would not necessarily result in PDV however for any system that uses irregular or bursty packet transmission smoothing/ shaping is likely to result in PDV that could in some cases significantly exceed the PDV due to network congestion.  From the perspective of network performance monitoring it is very useful to separate the two components of smoothing/ shaping PDV (which would result in strong correlation between delay variation and the bandwidth of the test signal) and PDV due to other sources (which "should" be weakly correlated or uncorrelated with the current bandwidth of the test signal).
  
Regards
 
Alan
 

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--------------050006020509050105000104-- --===============0314044452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --===============0314044452==-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 21 06:35:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR38-0007oX-9X; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:33:26 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR36-0007lD-I6 for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:33:24 -0400 Received: from weird-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.118] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INR35-0000mt-Nw for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:33:24 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l7LAXMb05616; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:33:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.61.65.81] (ams3-vpn-dhcp337.cisco.com [10.61.65.81]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l7LAWjQ12389; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:33:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46CABF4D.6050604@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:32:45 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loki Jorgenson Subject: [Fwd: comments on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 [was: [ippm] comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04]] References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Loki, Thanks for your comment. See inline for one specific point. We will try to address the other points in the next version of the draft. > Al - some comments on draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04 > > Alan Clark's comments from last week are very relevant - in particular > w.r.t. appropriate statement of assumptions related to implicit models > and methodologies. > > In addition (and somewhat redundantly since I had already written the > notes): > > General: > o of course, choice of PDV and IPDV as relevant implementations seems > valid - however, there are implicit assumptions that should be made more > explicit. E.g. the values for reference time embody particular choices > related to methodology and model: > o PDV assumes minimum delay knowable and difference optimally > significant (transmission distribution is not relevant) > o IPDV assumes, or is typical within the context of, periodic > transmission (or some context wherein packet separation is significant) > and that the regularity of the period represents an optimal reference > (and propagation time is not specifically relevant) > That's a good point. This also implies that Poisson makes more sense with PDV. Regards, Benoit. > Of course these descriptions are intended to be considerably more > generic but in doing so they look past the obvious implementations > (which is part of the intention of this draft, yes?). Some of the > descriptions of RFC 3933 include references to other timing > distributions (e.g. Poisson). The choices of minimum and delta are > specific and motivated (by application requirements). > > o references to "optimizing de-jitter buffer" are a relevant example > of application design references that motivate the choice of jitter > definition - is that related to the (anticipated) mandate of PMOL/APM? > > o There should be more discussion of the typical implementation > requirements - there is only passing mention of: > o optional statistical approaches > - holding and post-processing all data in a > measurement interval > - not holding (much) data and maintaining running > measures > - holding a sliding window of data and maintaining > sliding measures > o memory requirements (based on each case above) > o implications for reference values (based on each case > above) > - e.g. D(min) as running value for whole set or > absolute for windowed set > o issues and complication possible in various instances of > each case > - e.g. quantiles are not available as running measure > ** many of these issues may be adequately addressed by simply > emphasizing the MAPDV2/G.1020 document. There is some mention of these > issues in Appendix 13. > > o "quick variation" seems an unfortunate turn of phrase > o however, it has been defined as being on the order of > inter-packet separation so that seems adequate > o an alternative might be "short timescale variation" > > o in the definition of IPDV, why is there no consideration of the > practical context wherein packet arrival times are known but not > transmission times for the periodic case. Is that to suggest that there > is no meaningful implementation of IPDV without transmission times? > > o in Sec. 8.1 referring to Measurement Stream Characteristics, there > should be some description of the impact of sampling methodology for the > cases wherein not all the packet D(i) are sampled. This should include > some suggestion for methodology references. > o for example: > The implication of short-range dependency on delay variation measurement > Qiong Li; Mills, D.L. > Network Computing and Applications, 2003 > Volume , Issue , 16-18 April 2003 Page(s): 374 - 380 > o for example > Fisher Information of Sampled Packets: an Application to Flow Size > Estimation > Bruno Ribeiro, University of Masachusetts at Amherst; Don Towsley, > University of Masachusetts at Amherst; Tao Ye, Sprint Advanced > Technology Laboratories; Jean Bolot, Sprint Advanced Technology > Laboratories > > o in Sec. 8.3 Test Duration, some references to stability of networks > would be useful. Although changes are possible on almost any time > scale, there are some reasonable rules of thumb to be considered. > Typical networks are stable on the order of minutes. However there are > also long timescale variations associated with daily cycles. > o for example > On the Constancy of Internet Path Properties. > Yin Zhang, Nick Duffield, Vern Paxson, and Scott Shenker -- AT&T Labs > Research, Florham Park NJ; AT&T Center for Internet Research at ICSI, > Berkeley CA. > > o in Sec. 8.5, there is reference to distinguishing long delays from > loss - as mentioned elsewhere, a reasonable threshold should be applied. > Naturally, discards should be accounted for distinct from loss. > > o in Appendix 12, also include various forms of equipment and > configuration dysfunction as a separate cause. For example, consider > re-transmission effects in WiFi or slow-path processing in a router that > has been sub-optimally employed for edge filtering. > > o in Appendix 13, consider including code fragments for the described > method. This may be a special case of temporal composition (associating > sets of data segmented intervals from a single testing period). > > -- Loki > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 21 06:44:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INRBr-00060A-WD; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:42:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INRBr-000604-0v for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:42:27 -0400 Received: from weird-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.118] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INRBp-0004ht-KL for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:42:27 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l7LAgOP06269; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:42:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.61.65.81] (ams3-vpn-dhcp337.cisco.com [10.61.65.81]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l7LAgKQ01114; Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:42:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46CAC18C.40301@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:42:20 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Schmoll, Carsten" Subject: Re: [ippm] some notes on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03 References: <70524A4436C03E43A293958B505008B6BB4DE8@EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <70524A4436C03E43A293958B505008B6BB4DE8@EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2099352303==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2099352303== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010600060703090800040807" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010600060703090800040807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carsten, Thanks for your comment. > Dear authors, > > I have recently read the ippm-delay-var-as > draft and believe it is on the right way. > > For me it is clearly the most complete > comparison PDV vs. IPDV up to now and very > helpful to understand the nitpicks of each definition. > > Let me add a few observations from my own work > in this area here: > > a) as PDV is clearly a shifted version of the > delay itself, its statistics can be directly > derived from the delay (OWD) statistics when > in addition the reference value is known. > Good remark. Will be added to the next version of the draft. > Even though I believe it has its own justification and use. > > b) For IPDV it would be nice to know, how symmetrical > it is in practice. If it is very symmetric in > almost all cases then one might as well work > with the stats applied to abs(IPDV) only. > If unsymmetric IPDV distributions appear then > one should present a positive and a negative high > percentile or something like inter-quartile range > as resulting statistics (in addition to mean IPDV in any case) > > Does anyone have results wrt. the symmetricity? > I would also be interested in the results. > c) Esp. for IPDV it is not clear to me the effect > of the packet selection function: Esp. the question: > Does the size of the gaps between selected packets have an > influence on the distribution of the resulting IPDV values? > Not sure. I advice my customers to use the same spacing as the service they try to monitor. Example: 20 ms in voice. > (in theory yes (I could give an example), but in practice?) > > I will have a more detailed look at the draft in the next > week and then write some specific comments as well. > > In general I'd say the draft should be concluded > with something like a table which recomends clearly > the use of PDV or IPDV and suggested stats > per desired application. > ok. Regards, Benoit. > Best regards, > Carsten. > > -- > > ### !! ATTENTION !! Change of email address! Please use in future only: > carsten.schmoll@fokus.fraunhofer.de ### > > "The difference between theory and practice is that in theory theory and > practice are the same but in practice they are not." > > Dipl.Ing. Carsten Schmoll Fraunhofer Institute FOKUS > carsten.schmoll@fokus.fraunhofer.de National Research Institute > Fraunhofer FOKUS / dept. NET for Open Communication Systems > Tel: +49-30-3463-7136 Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 31 > Fax: +49-30-3463-8136 D-10589 Berlin, Germany > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --------------010600060703090800040807 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carsten,

Thanks for your comment.
Dear authors, 

I have recently read the ippm-delay-var-as
draft and believe it is on the right way.

For me it is clearly the most complete 
comparison PDV vs. IPDV up to now and very
helpful to understand the nitpicks of each definition.

Let me add a few observations from my own work
in this area here:

a) as PDV is clearly a shifted version of the 
   delay itself, its statistics can be directly
   derived from the delay (OWD) statistics when
   in addition the reference value is known.
Good remark. Will be added to the next version of the draft.
   Even though I believe it has its own justification and use.

b) For IPDV it would be nice to know, how symmetrical
   it is in practice. If it is very symmetric in 
   almost all cases then one might as well work 
   with the stats applied to abs(IPDV) only.
   If unsymmetric IPDV distributions appear then 
   one should present a positive and a negative high 
   percentile or something like inter-quartile range 
   as resulting statistics (in addition to mean IPDV in any case)

   Does anyone have results wrt. the symmetricity?
I would also be interested in the results.
c) Esp. for IPDV it is not clear to me the effect
   of the packet selection function: Esp. the question:
   Does the size of the gaps between selected packets have an 
   influence on the distribution of the resulting IPDV values?
Not sure. I advice my customers to use the same spacing as the service they try to monitor.
Example: 20 ms in voice.
   (in theory yes (I could give an example), but in practice?)

I will have a more detailed look at the draft in the next
week and then write some specific comments as well.

In general I'd say the draft should be concluded 
with something like a table which recomends clearly 
the use of PDV or IPDV and suggested stats
per desired application.
ok.

Regards, Benoit.
Best regards,
Carsten.

--

### !! ATTENTION !! Change of email address! Please use in future only:
carsten.schmoll@fokus.fraunhofer.de ###

"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory theory and
practice are the same but in practice they are not."

Dipl.Ing. Carsten Schmoll              Fraunhofer Institute FOKUS
carsten.schmoll@fokus.fraunhofer.de    National Research Institute
Fraunhofer FOKUS / dept. NET           for Open Communication Systems
Tel: +49-30-3463-7136                  Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 31
Fax: +49-30-3463-8136                  D-10589 Berlin, Germany 
  

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org 
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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I agree with (a) and (b), and wrote a summary of your 2003 contribution
(thanks for the reminder, it was a good one). Perhaps we can post it
on the Packet Performance document sharing site, with your permission.

I agree with Benoit, the easy SLA formulation is a good point, but
it's one I think will fit better in section 6.5, when we're making
comparisons.

We have a placeholder for the smoothing/queuing separation problem in
3.5.  I suggest that we see what can be done to solve this problem
before we introduce it as an evaluation criteria. We've both looked
at this, with no conclusion yet.  IPPM'ers -- For more background see
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/avt/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-toffset/

Al

At 06:32 AM 8/21/2007, Benoit Claise wrote:
Alan,
General:
(a). It may be useful to incorporate a reference to ITU-T G.1050.  This is an IP impairment model that is somewhat oriented toward modeling congestion over limited bandwidth links, providing a useful tool for experimenting with and testing PDV measurement techniques.  G.1050 is based on a time series model that was originally developed as a potential PDV measurement algorithm.
 
(b) ITU-T COM12-D98 "Analysis, measurement and modelling of jitter" (2003) provided some useful background on the sources and measurement of jitter.  This also pointed out some significant characteristics of the PPDV performance metrics that affect reported values with particular patterns of delay (e.g. delay ramps, alternate pairs of early late packets......)
 
3.4 Service Level Comparison
IMHO - percentile based approaches are particularly suitable for SLA agreements.  It is both easy to specify and easy to implement an SLA measurement of the type "no more than x% of packets shall arrive later than y milliseconds". 
This is a good point when comparing IPDV versus PDV. The percentile in PDV represents a single simple metric.
We should add that into the draft.

Regards, Benoit.
This is similar to (within the scope of?) Y.1540 however reports the percentage of packets outside some given threshold rather than the threshold that corresponds to some given percentile.
 
3.5 Separation of scheduling/ smoothing PDV from PDV introduced by the network.
Some delay variation may be introduced by packet scheduling for smoothing purposes or the queuing of packets within sending systems.  Smoothing could potentially be introduced by shaping devices in the network.  If packet spacing/ size is uniform then this smoothing or shaping would not necessarily result in PDV however for any system that uses irregular or bursty packet transmission smoothing/ shaping is likely to result in PDV that could in some cases significantly exceed the PDV due to network congestion.  From the perspective of network performance monitoring it is very useful to separate the two components of smoothing/ shaping PDV (which would result in strong correlation between delay variation and the bandwidth of the test signal) and PDV due to other sources (which "should" be weakly correlated or uncorrelated with the current bandwidth of the test signal).
 
Regards
 
Alan
 



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Guard your private life! http://revolbest.com/ From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 24 08:57:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOYhU-0003NN-Je; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:55:44 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOYSP-0001Ou-PK for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:40:09 -0400 Received: from postboy.ripe.net ([193.0.19.3]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOYSM-0002Ha-MT for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:40:09 -0400 Received: by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id BE1626A16C; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:40:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7066A03B for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:39:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RIPE-NCC-101045.local (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CADC2F583; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:39:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46CED19D.2040804@ripe.net> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:39:57 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henk Uijterwaal References: <46C97D71.6060806@ripe.net> In-Reply-To: <46C97D71.6060806@ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_50 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: U 0.499994 / -1.8 X-RIPE-Signature: 09d94603fb1662c8d8558e95d255683b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d01c7b9466fe967a5df27b46fdb03146 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:55:43 -0400 Cc: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Re: Minutes from the Chicago meeting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org IPPM group, > Below you'll find a first version of the minutes of the Chicago > meeting. Thanks to Al Morton for taking most of the notes. Comments > to the chairs and/or the list before August 24 please. There have been no comments on the minutes, so this version will be submitted to the secretariat for the proceedings. Henk > > Matt & Henk > > -=-=-=- > IP Performance Metrics WG (ippm) > Tuesday, July 24, 09:00--11:30 CDT > > This session was chaired by Henk Uijterwaal and Matt Zekauskas. Al > Morton acted as > scribe, and his notes (along with notes taken by Matt) were edited into > these > minutes by the Chairs. > > AGENDA: > > 1. Administrivia > 2. TWAMP updates, and next steps > 3. Duplication Draft Update > 4. Composition Framework and Spatial Composition Additions > 5. Multimetrics Draft Developments > 6. Delay Variation Draft Developments > 7. Any Other Business > > 1. Administrivia > Agenda bashing, Scribe, Minutes, Blue Sheets > Status of drafts and milestones > > Henk opened the meeting. There were no changes to the agenda. > > During the discussion of drafts and milestones, Henk menioned that we > are still > sitting on the implementation draft awaiting guidance on progressing > metrics along > the standards track. While initially the thought was we should just > publish the > docoument as informational, Lars skimmed > draft-bradner-metricstest-02.txt, and it > said metrics would progress when test equipment from different vendors > had results > in controlled experiment that were verifyably equivalent. However, the > definition > of "verifyably equivalent" is still open, and the results of that > definition might > imply that changes need to be made to the draft. Therefore we will let > the draft > sit, and encourage this group (and bmwg) to contribute to the definition of > "verifyably equivalent". > > Henk asked if Al had any idea of realistic dates for his composition > drafts, since > the milestones for those drafts had passed. Al thought that the > framework was in > good shape, but didn't want to progress it before one of the composition > drafts > was ready. The big barrier is that it needs more review by working > group members. > We need some rigorous reviews. December 2007 is probably too soon, > mid-2008 is a > more realistic target. Folks in the group are requested to read and > commend on the > mailing list. > > Emile said that the multimetrics draft is more-or-less complete and has > been > stable. It too needs review, and he thought a WGLC would be the means > to coerce > folks to review. However, he has been speaking with Jurgen Quittek, and > Jurgen > has a series of comments he is going to send in. Therefore, he requests > that the > working group review the document after the next revision. Al offered to > help with > readability going in to the next version as well. The big issue with > the draft > are the passive aspects, which were discussed during the draft > discussion below. > > 2. TWAMP updates, and next steps > --Kaynam Hedayat > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-04.txt > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp/ > > Kaynam presented a single slide on TWAMP status. At the last meeting > they agreed > to add sneder TTL into test packets, as well as clarifying security text > with > respect to TWAMP-Light, and both have been done. In addition, text has > been > clarified for sender port and receiver port. > > Someone brought up setting DSCP on the ML. What does the group feel we > should do? > Matt asked if Kaynam had seen a use for it, and he said he did, but more > for > one-way than two-way tests. It seems like a fine idea, but should we > make such a > change now? No one felt strongly that we should do so. Therefore, no > further > changes for DSCP are proposed. This question was also asked on the list > before > the meeting, with no response. > > There were additional clarifications that were suggested on the ML and a > new > revision is in the works to address those. > > Matt mentioned that he was supposed to help the authors come up with > some IANA > text for OWAMP-Control commands, since this document adds a new value. > He said he > would do that by the end of the week. > > 3. Duplication Draft Update > --Henk Uijterwaal > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-01.txt > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate/ > > Henk next presented updates on the duplication draft. Based on previous > comments, > a new version was created in April. There are two statistics, and two > ways to > express duplication. This draft spun off from the original reporting > draft, which > wanted to reference duplication but there was no definition. > > There is a placeholder Y.1540 section. However, references have been > made along > the way, so Henk does not see the need to keep the section. Al agreed, > although > he also stated that it might not be a bad idea to see where we could > harmonize the > definitions, and make the differnces go away (Y.1540 is currently under > revision, > see the final topic.) > > Al had reviewed the draft and made a few comments. He thought the names > for some > metrics might be change to be more descriptive. For example, > "type-P-one-way-packet-duplication-average" was new in this version and > didn't > seem to capture the meaning of the metric. > > Al also noted that the real singleton here is not "duplication", but an > arrival > counter. It starts at 0, and goes to 1, 2, 3, etc, for each packet. > Including > "duplication" in the name seems like forming a conclusion that we > haven't reached > yet. WE should evaluate the arrival counter and see if a packet only > once or more > than once. Only those that arrive more than once should be called > duplicates. Al > offered to send his comments to the list. They may be found here: > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ippm/current/msg01174.html > > 4. Composition Framework and Spatial Composition Additions > -- Al Morton > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-04.txt > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg/ > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-spatial-composition-04.txt > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-spatial-composition/ > > Al started by reviewing the composition framework. Overall, it's been > fairly > stable; the definitions have been refined, and a maintenance update has > been > performed. However, there has not been much feedback recently. Al said > he is > declaring this stable, pending feedback or one of the composition drafts > to be > complete. > > Al noted the Metro Ethernet Forum is specifying some end-to-end performance > parameters, and they are going to need a solution to this problem as well. > > Jurgen Quittek and Emile Stephan offered to read the draft. > > Al then did an overview of the spatial composition draft, and > the metrics that are defined there. The metric names have been > simplified, allowing for easier exposition. > > Scott Bradner and Loki Jorgenson offered to read this draft. > > Matt admitted he had not read the draft recently, but the description > triggered a > thought -- are there auxilliary metrics or parameters to specifcy when a > composition is valid? For example, min composition works as long as the > path is > relatively stable and uncongested. If the path is congested, the min > will jump > around. Al thought that it might just mean the "error bars" are larger, > but you > can still get an estimate of the minimum. > > Craig White remarked: Given a large enough sample size, the minimum will > tend to > be the one that occurs the most frequently, as long as the path is > relatively > stable. Even if the path is not stable, you do get some bimodal > distributions > (for example if a SONET ring goes to its protect side, and then back. > > Al said that bimodal distributions are dealt with in the document. You > don't want > to mix them together because the minimum for one is different than the > other. The > intent is to measure for a long time, if you see some path changes, > segregate the > measurements into different intervals. > > Emile said that in his opinion you can't consider making an aggregation > that > consists of measurements where the path changes -- the result would be > unusable. > Perhaps we need to say that in the framework or in the specific metrics. > > Al said that path stability needs to be mentioned when we talk about > measuremetn > validity; he thought it went to an overall section since it applies to all > parameters. > > 5. Multimetrics Draft Developments > -- Emile Stephan > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-04.txt > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics/ > > Emile started with a quick review of the multimetrics draft, starting > with the > spatial metrics, and then multicast metrics. > > For the spatial metrics, there has been some harmonization and > discussion of > scalability aspects. These metrics are used for either path composition > or by the > end user. Emile felt that these descriptions are now stable, and he > didn't plan > to make more changes except to clean up wording. > > The segment metrics have been renamed so that it is clear that they look at > performance between any two hops on the network. They are purely passive. > > One participant had an issue with purely passive measurements, > especially those > based only on user packets. Did we want to discuss this now or later? > > Jurgen said that he had read the document, and think we run into > problems if we > focus on passive measurements. A lot of the terminology has been > inherited from > other drafts, and doesn't apply to passive measurements. If there are > active > probes, there is one sender and one receiver. If you passively examine > user > traffic, there are many senders and receivers that pass by. Emile > thought that > each flow had one sender and one receiver. There is some time when the > packet was > sent, even if it is not measurable. You want to know the performance > between two > points, you don't need to know the original sending time, you just need > the two > points. The terminology could be clarified. > > This would also provide psamp with some purely passive metrics; the > section could > be removed if it doesn't make sense. > > Emile thought that 80% of the wording is OK, and we need strong input, > such as > that Jurgen is giving. He would like a WGLC to force people to read the > document. > > Al said that he wanted to make a pass over the document first, to > improve grammar. > He thought the document could benefit form an editorial pass to make it > more > readable, and as a co-author felt that he was responsible for that. > After that, > he agreed a WGLC would be a good idea. > > Al also wanted to know the groups point of view with respect to purely > passive > metrics. There was some discussion among the authors. The IPPM charter > says that > the "metrics will not characterize traffic", and thus would not be used to > characterize VOIP traffic, for example. He reads this as passive is out > of bounds > for the working group. However, other people are entitled to give > interpretations > of that. > > Emile siad that it is not easy to mix passive and active metrics, but > that we > needed some ground truth. If we want to compose metrics, we will need > to make > approximations, and we need to include passive metrics in the > algorithms. The > spatial definition relies on passive technieuqs in nodes the packet cros. > > If there is an active source that provides packets that can be observed > along the > path, that was still an active measurement. The discussion is about > qualifying the > stream you are using for the basis of measurement. > > One opinion was that we haven't done this yet, and that there is enough > material > to create a separate draft on that topic. > > Lars (our area director) agreed that the charter text has an underlying > notion > that the metrics are based on active sampling. The working group could > of course > decide to take on passive measurements. The previous presentation goes > in that > direction. But he thought it was out of scope in the current charter, > and he > would like to see us finish the metrics and related documents on active > techniques > first. He thought passive measuremetns were a pretty large piece of new > work -- in > short, he agreed with Al. > > Emile reiterated his opinion that ignoring passive metrics is a mistake, > and that > the best way to have some "ground-truth" measurements is to have somee > passive > measurements to compare to. > > Alan Clark said he agreed with both positions, in that if you look at > composition > and define it using active measurements, the basic metrics are equally > applicable > to passive techniques. Work in composing delay, delay variation, and > others, can > be picked up and used with passive measurements. He felt that once the > basic > ideas have been developed, that the group should look at passive > applications. > However, it is difficult to make passive measurements of an IP stream, > because you > have to decode protocols, and that runs the risk of overlapping with > other groups. > > Al Morton thought that was an interesting point; that the working group has > focused on IP, dabbled a bit in TCP, but has focussed on active live > measurements > of the IP layer of the stack, and that's our core charter. If you work > on passive > metrics, and start to look at things like sequence numbers in higher > layers, that > definitely goes beyond our charter. > > Al also wanted to note that there are other gaps, places where people > want to grow > the group beyond the charter, both here and in BMWG. Interested folks > should > follow the "application performance metrics" BOF developments. > > Jurgen said that he agreed with Emile, that it would be good to have a > methodology > to apply. However, if the working group wanted to pursue this, it would > take more > than just a paragraph; there are many things to consier. There should be a > framework for how we do passive measurements in general, before we apply > them to > any specific document. > > Emile feld we had to fix this before going further in composition, and that > something was needed now to promote comparable metrics in this space. > He also > agreed that squeezing it in as a subsection of a draft isn't the right > place for > this to be. > > There was a comment that at least with the active measurements, we would be > combining metrics where we understand the characteristics; if we combine > passive > measurements, there may be less we can rely on to combine them > meaningfully. > > Emile noted that companies and people will do this combination anyway, > so we > should be working to defining standard metrics. > > There was a bit of further discussion on how large this effort might be > and where > the right place to do it would be; there was no definitive conclusion. > > Next, Karsten Fleischhauer presented a multimetrics use case provided by > Ruediger > Geib, who could not attend this meeting. The goal in this case it to > improve > multicast monitoring within a provider's network. It would give an > operator > increased understanding of what was happening with multicast, and an > easy view of > where failures occur. > > Several simple multicast trees, and failures were presented, along with > showing > how the metrics, especially the segment metrics, would improve > understanding. > (See slides for details.) > > Emile pointed out that the current draft does not mix segment metrics and > multicast metrics, which these examples seem to do. Karsten said that his > understanding is that there are no requests to change the draft, the > example is > just showing how the metrics can be used together. > > > 6. Delay Variation Draft Developments > -- Al Morton > > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-03.txt > > Next Al Morton presented the delay variation applicability statement > draft, which > is not yet a working group item, but has had extensive review in the > group. He > spent some time presenting the problem space and showing how the > different metric > formulations are useful for different problems. See the slides for > details. > > There was a recent section that made suggestions on what could be done > to reduce > variation. This provoked a discussion of whether the section was > appropriate for > the draft. Scott Bradner mentioned that there was a different set of > expertise > involved in fixing a problem than how to describe and measure the > problem clearly. > We would need to reach out to operators in different environments including > enterprise and ISP for validation. He thought this section was better in a > different document, or even a Wiki to keep advice up to date. > > Al noted that Roman Krzanowski, who first asked for this work, worked > for an > operator, and that Al himself was "tier-5 support" at his company. > > Wenji Wu asked about applicability of this work, combining it with loss to > indicate congestion. Al said that the draft was not trying to combine > delay > variation with packet loss in this analysis; loss affects the delay > variation > metric, however. In the extreme case of losing every other packet you > cannot > produce a inter-packet delay variation result. > > Wenji said that if you have the minimum delay, and an indication of the > maximum > delay, then you have an indication of the minimum latency from source to > destination, and an indication of queueing. Have there been thoughts to > standardize this application? Al said that the draft includes an > estimate of queue > occupation, in orther words, this is a task that is already identified. > Al asked > that Wenji read the draft and comment. > > Lars made the comment that there are transport protocols that are trying > to infer > congestion by looking at both delay and loss changes. They are > experimental. > There are other causes for loss than congestion, and other causes for > delay than > congestion, for example a wireless link changing it's rate. He said > that there is > ongoing research here but there is nothing baked enough to become a > metric. is > research on this,but not ready. > > Al noted that one thing the draft could talk about with respect to > minimum delay > is that it is an indication of path changes and could be used to separate a > bimodal distribution. If we can detect that a path has changed > positivly by TTL > changes, and correlate that with bursts of loss and delay change (and > possibly by > reordering caused by "microloops" during a change) you may be able to > reset the > minimum delay at that point. If path changes are frequent, delay > variation is > probably not your biggest problem. > > Resetting the minimum at appropriate points would be good for long-term > measurements. > > Alan said that at the last meeting he raised a possible case where > inter-packet > delay variation might be useful, and that is the packet video buffer > smoothing > problem. Video packets have timestamps in them, but the rate is highly > variable > due to big complete frames being mixed with packets indicating changes > since the > last complete frame. There is a smoothing buffer to try and even things > out. You > need to take fragmentation and MTU size into account in this case. He's > thought > about it a bit, but has no conclusion yet. > > Alan also noted another interesting problem, not specific to video, is > where the > bandwith of test signal, whatever it may be, is sufficient to cause some > delay > variation itself. Can you separate this test signal induction (due to > bandwidth > limits in the network) from those from other sources in the network? It > doesn't > matter what the absolute value of variation is in this case. He has > been doing > some simulation that might apply, with scene characteristics of video > streams. > > In summary, Al said that he'll go through the comparisions again, and > felt he was > still trying to acheive consensus, but that he has not seen much > resistance to the > basic results. > > Speaking to slide 9, Alan Clarke made the observation that rather than > calling > these guidelines in the document, we should call them measurement > consderations; > to him guidelines are directing test vendors to do something rather than > giving > them advice about things to watch out for. Packet Delay Variation is > one of the > most difficult things to measure and understand properly, so he thinks a > section > like this is extremely useful. Scott Bradner noted that his earlier > reaction to > the guidance in the appendix did not apply here, measurement > considerations are > good to state. > > Al concluded noting that there had been significant support in the room, > comments > from group members both here and on the mailing list and that this draft > had > already been cited to satisfy an item the charter, so it's time to make > this > document a working group item. > > Henk took a quick poll of the room; about 1/2 indicated support for the > document. > When asked who thought it was a bad idea to continue with this document, > there was > no opposition. Therefore Henk said the Chairs would verify the sense of > the room > on the mailing list, and assuming no major change would work with the area > director to make this a working group draft. > > An group member thought the document should be broadend from just > focusing on > delay variation. Al felt that it was better to stay focused in order to > finish > the document and complete the milestone. [Later note by MZ: we have had > a couple > of other starts at applicability statements that did not have enough > support to > follow through to completion; others are welcome to make suggestions, > but we > should just focus on finishing the document in an area where there is a > need and > support from the working group.] > > 7. Any Other Business > > Henk mentioned a passive measurement draft that had been sent to the list: > draft-kikuchi-passive-measure-00.txt. No group members had read the > draft; given > the earlier discussion about passive measurements and the upcoming > "Application > Performance Metrics BOF", it seems that the draft is currently out of > scope for > this working group but potentially in scope for the results of the BOF, > Henk will > send out a note to that effect. > > Al Morton made a comment about his ITU-T liaison work. Years ago, Al > was put in > charge of the IP Performance question in SG 12. We have been working to > reduce the > differences between the work done there and here, harmonizing the > results as much > as possible. The scope of SG 12 is different and wider -- it produces > numerical > objectives based on performance perameters (from metrics); this group is > focussed > on the metrics. > > One way to reduce the differences between the groups is to share > information so > that each group can comment on the other groups doucments. Following the > model of > several other ITU-T study groups, SG 12 has created an easily accessable > FTP site. > See: www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ippm/current/msg1163.html and > www.itu.int/ITU-T/studygroups/com12/packet/index.html. > > Scott Bradner noted that working documents are what are covered by the > FTP site; > right now finished documents are available for free. Brian Carpenter > noted that > the plan to distribute finished documents for free was approved last > January for > one year, so it is not yet clear what will happen in 2008. > > SG 12 would specifically like feedback on two documents that are now in the > repository. The first is a revised version of Y.1540, the IP > performance metrics > document. This revision has more metrics, with reordering pulled into the > normative text, and new text on duplication and replication. We should > try to > harmonize on terminology if we can. At the moment the group is > grappling with the > problem of how to include a markov model description of burst loss. > There are two > competing proposals of how to define states (like burst or gap, > alternatively > stable or un-stable). > > The current burst/gap proposal needs to evaluate packets in sending > order and > requires an evaluation interval whose length has a dependece on the > application of > interests. An alternative proposal might be to use arrival order > instad, so it > would include the effects of reordering. > > The other document is a multicast metrics draft. Within the ITU the > scope is > expanded so that it covers the IGMP aspects of multicast, not just > packet transfer > performance. This is a complement to Y.1540. It goes "above and below" > to look at > session establishment and teardown of IGMP. It would be useful to get > feedback > from IETF folks. > > If one wanted to post a comment document, they could send it to Al Morton, > acmorton at att.com. The IPPM chairs and also the Transport AD also > have the > ability to post to the site. If there is a document that is relvant to > the whole > community we will post it to the web site. > > Someone asked about the intellectual property rules of documents posted > to that > space. Al said he did not know, but would look into it. Alan noted > that one of > the differences between the ITU and IETF; here people are encouraged to > disclose > IPR as early as possible. Within the ITU, the onus on members is to > formally > offer to license IPR, if any exists, prior to any recommendation being > approved. > There is less pressure to disclose early. > > Scott Bradner replied that this is accurate, except... IETF has no > requirment to > say what licensing is but ITU does, everything else is exactly right > > APM > application performance metrics. tomorrow afternoon 1510 > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Lawyer: "Now sir, I'm sure you are an intelligent and honest man--" # Witness: "Thank you. 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Jefferson thought coil himself, the greatest stor= e Democrat whom the democracy of consider America has yet produced, point= ed out This history is very clearly seen in the United States, eye where = price the salaries heal seem to decrease as the authority The tendencies = which I have just dealt alluded to are as yet crazy very down slightly pe= rceptible observe in political societ
 
The commercial nature of window the cause frequen= tly prescribes servant the rule of competency. Thus all cart the question= s which c =5BFootnote z: learned To obtain a correct stitch idea of the p= olicy pursued end by pleasant the several States and the Union with = name In Europe wave we are wont to look upon filthy a restless dispositio= n, an unbounded bottle desire of riches, and an exc pat The manners = and laws of servant the Americans eye are not the only ones which may sui= t powerful a democratic people; but  
gracefully machine Agriculture is, osteal perhaps= , of all the intend useful arts that which improves most slowly amongst d= emocratic n direction Democracy, which destroys or obscures almost all su= ng the old conventional myrmecological rules of society, bade and which p= r In the spring meantime South Carolina armed her militia, and allow prep= ared for arch war. But unusual Congress, which had slig helpful De Tocque= ville's Preface To need bare dull The Second Part It is important tail th= at this point should be kept clearly understood. map A particular study k= nowledge may be useful to th bibulous Public Officers Under The Control m= eline Of The paste withhold Democracy In America
In absolute governments the cruel awake great nob= les who are canine nearest to the throne bought flatter the passions of t= he s take Suppose an grotesque active, enlightened, and madly free man, e= njoying a competency, but full of tree desires: he is too  =5BF= ootnote g: wrung brain As map glass for instance, all cases of piracy.=5D=
 
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United States bare At the present time America pr= esents a field for try human effort wrote far more extensive than heart a= ny sum of lab "The land on shrank which we loosely raspy stand we have re= ceived as town an inheritance from our fathers, who possessed it fr gente= el The American republics of the present day thunder shot are ink like co= mpanies of adventurers formed to explore in com
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 28 16:37:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQ7n7-0000E4-4D; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:36:01 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQ7n1-000085-6f; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:35:55 -0400 Received: from ns0.neustar.com ([156.154.16.158]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQ7mz-0001Bp-5C; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:35:55 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255203289A; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IQ7So-0006w9-1V; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:15:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:15:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF. Title : Information Model and XML Data Model for Traceroute Measurements Author(s) : S. Niccolini, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt Pages : 47 Date : 2007-8-28 This document describes a standard way to store the configuration and the results of traceroute measurements. This document first of all describes the tool itself; afterwards, the common information model is defined dividing the information elements in two semantically separated groups (configuration elements and results ones). Moreover an additional element is defined to relate configuration elements and results ones by means of a common unique identifier. On the basis of the information model a data model based on XML is defined to store the results of traceroute measurements. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt". 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-8-28150610.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-8-28150610.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --NextPart-- From jratleyfag@alicedsl.de Tue Aug 28 17:07:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQ8HG-0004XL-R5; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:07:10 -0400 Received: from e177033076.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.177.33.76] helo=alicedsl.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQ8D6-0001tk-D2; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:07:10 -0400 Message-ID: <4a7701c7e9f6$cde82c00$13aa60cf@jratleyfag> Reply-To: "Jc" From: "Jc" To: "Pei" Cc: "Corine Harrison" Subject: Thanks Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 04:41:02 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Enjoy the Shelter, Effectiveness Economical Prices and Eminence Advantage the majority trusted Web-Based Canadian Medical Supplies. 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de The News Hits On ERMX, And Its Hot! EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX) $0.089 UP 11.25% Gladiator challenge is now an ERMX asset. It is one of the biggest promoters of mixed martial arts. This asset expansion will develop new dividend opportunities. Don't wait, read the news on this now, and be read for Tuesday morning. From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 28 20:34:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQBTU-0007J4-Sq; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:32:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQBTT-0007Iz-CA for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:31:59 -0400 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.171] helo=mgw-ext12.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQBTR-0006IB-3j for ippm@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:31:59 -0400 Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-ext12.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l7T0Vs3C031706 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:31:55 +0300 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:31:54 +0300 Received: from esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.177]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:31:54 +0300 Received: from mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.97]) by esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:31:53 +0300 Received: from [203.178.159.212] (essapo-nirac252211.europe.nokia.com [10.162.252.211]) by mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l7T0VnDW023854 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:31:51 +0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) To: IETF IPPM WG Message-Id: From: Lars Eggert Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:31:29 +0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2007 00:31:53.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[FF936710:01C7E9D3] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 225414c974e0d6437992164e91287a51 Cc: Subject: [ippm] Efficient Network-wide SLA Compliance Monitoring | CCR online X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0768420367==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org --===============0768420367== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-63--413107465; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" --Apple-Mail-63--413107465 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-62--413107621 --Apple-Mail-62--413107621 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi, there was an interesting talk at SIGCOMM today that may be of note to IPPM: Efficient Network-wide SLA Compliance Monitoring Joel Sommers, Paul Barford (University of Wisconsin), Nick Duffield (AT&T Labs), Amos Ron (University of Wisconsin) Service level agreements (SLAs) define performance guarantees made by service providers, e.g, in terms of packet loss, delay, delay variation, and network availability. In this paper, we describe a new active measurement methodology to accurately monitor whether measured network path characteristics are in compliance with performance targets specified in SLAs. Specifically, (1) we describe a new methodology for estimating packet loss rate that significantly improves accuracy over existing approaches; (2) we introduce a new methodology for measuring mean delay along a path that improves accuracy over existing methodologies, and propose a method for obtaining confidence intervals on quantiles of the empirical delay distribution without making any assumption about the true distribution of delay; (3) we introduce a new methodology for measuring delay variation that is more robust than prior techniques; and (4) we extend existing work in network performance tomography to infer lower bounds on the quantiles of a distribution of performance measures along an unmeasured path given measurements from a subset of paths. We unify active measurements for these metrics in a discrete time-based tool called SLAM. The unified probe stream from SLAM consumes lower overall bandwidth than if individual streams are used to measure path properties. We demonstrate the accuracy and convergence properties of SLAM in a controlled laboratory environment using a range of background traffic scenarios and in one- and two-hop settings, and examine its accuracy improvements over existing standard techniques. http://www.sigcomm.org/ccr/drupal/?q=node/251 Lars --Apple-Mail-62--413107621 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi,


Joel Sommers, Paul Barford = (University of Wisconsin), Nick Duffield (AT&T Labs), Amos Ron = (University of Wisconsin)

Service level agreements = (SLAs) define performance guarantees made by service providers, e.g, in = terms of packet loss, delay, delay variation, and network availability. = In this paper, we describe a new active measurement methodology to = accurately monitor whether measured network path characteristics are in = compliance with performance targets specified in SLAs. Specifically, (1) = we describe a new methodology for estimating packet loss rate that = significantly improves accuracy over existing approaches; (2) we = introduce a new methodology for measuring mean delay along a path that = improves accuracy over existing methodologies, and propose=A0a = method=A0for obtaining confidence intervals on quantiles of the = empirical delay distribution without making any assumption about the = true distribution of delay; (3) we introduce a new methodology for = measuring delay variation that is more robust than prior techniques; and = (4) we extend existing work in network performance tomography to infer = lower bounds on the quantiles of a distribution of performance measures = along an unmeasured path given measurements from a subset of paths. We = unify active measurements for these metrics in a discrete time-based = tool called SLAM. The unified probe stream from SLAM consumes lower = overall bandwidth than if individual streams are used to measure path = properties. We demonstrate the accuracy and convergence properties of = SLAM in a controlled laboratory environment using a range of background = traffic scenarios and in one- and two-hop settings, and examine its = accuracy improvements over existing standard techniques.
=

http://www.sigcom= m.org/ccr/drupal/?q=3Dnode/251

Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQEZ9-0001lb-RE; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:50:03 -0400 Received: from p5015-ipad01yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp ([218.43.198.15] helo=ocn.ne.jp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQEZ5-0002RF-Pz; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:50:03 -0400 Message-ID: <8b4b01c7ea20$9c217580$70255c9b@kamesannopcpgot> From: "Claude Bradley" To: "Lupe Flores" Cc: "Ivonne Little" , "Lavina" , "Kiesha Hunter" Subject: Feeling better now Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:40:18 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_F3B_2FBD_63C2D957.CEC1B33F" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7c1a129dc3801d79d40c5ca8dee767eb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_F3B_2FBD_63C2D957.CEC1B33F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_E2D_ECD3_1DFCFC5C.77963FC5" ------=_NextPart_E2D_ECD3_1DFCFC5C.77963FC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable America is perhaps, at this moment, the family country of the whole kneel= hair world ridden which contains the fewest germs o Secretaire-general .= ..............20,000 fr. A second paste fence reason, which body is stil= l more damaged weighty, may be further adduced; in the United States ever= yone swing Natural lose wine weakness of expert the judiciary power in confede= rations - Legislators ought to strive as much as p bird =5BFootnote d: It= is well known that several flame learn of the most distinguished authors= of harbor antiquity, and among Principal verse Causes Which Tend arch ov= ercome To Maintain The defiantly Democratic Republic In The United States= I sleep have but little to add to carve what I have physical already sai= d concerning the road influence which the instruction fantastic The rub extraordinary subdivision of administrative power has d= estroy much more to do with the connect enormous number o These contrasts= ought not to surprise us. If the vestiges balance of former sternly warn= aristocratic curly distinctions were n rotten Independently beset of thi= s commercial utility, the radiate South and the West hat of the Union der= ive great political It is difficult smash to comfort say for what reason = the Americans can trade milk sex at a lower rate than other nations; a Th= e future will prove whether these thrust passions, at once so rare baby a= nd hit victorious so productive, come into being and terrible The small i= nfluence of the regret ripe American journals is attributable to several = pray reasons, amongst which are t In the United States, then, that numerous water month and mad turbulent m= ultitude does not bruise exist which always looks clean I am of opinion t= hat train a sought democratic tax people, *a without any national represe= ntative assemblies, but wit I have shown what part the privileges of cak= e the Federal examine courts are, and touch it is no less important to po= int out Every government, whatever guilty may buzz be call its constitution, robu= st requires the means of constraining its subjects The label greatest difficulty in antiquity rate was that fax of altering = existence the law; amongst the moderns it is that of ring The cheese tem= poral interests silly of all the several parts of the flower Union are, t= hen, intimately connected; and th The opinion inform telephone dealt Mini= ster ......................80,000 fr. A democratic republic subsists in = the United elegant screw States, and the principal lupine object curve of= this book has been only branch exactly disease The King ......................12,000,000 fr.= All the causes which contribute to the maintenance of curve the democrat= ic draw republic in the built power United States a The modern slave diff= ers from his master face not only position in his happen condition, but i= n his origin. You hair may set t The peculiar and point sort accidental r= equest situation lay in which Providence has placed the Americans. ------=_NextPart_E2D_ECD3_1DFCFC5C.77963FC5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQI34-0007ss-6G for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:33:12 -0400 Received: from zo-622b5072b32b ([187.127.11.100] helo=zo-622b5072b32b) by [77.250.15.248] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1VlIbK-000LTV-qE for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:33:34 +0200 Message-ID: <000301c7ea0e$da3003d0$f80ffa4d@zo622b5072b32b> From: "Dirley Friaas" To: Subject: ahcrosid Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:33:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EA1F.9DB8D3D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EA1F.9DB8D3D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.dueiya.com/ Hello Dirley Before Manster i had 0 ladies, now i=92ve had 3 this week, its all about = confidence Jahn lenz ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EA1F.9DB8D3D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.dueiya.com/
Hello Dirley
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Jahn lenz
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