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From matsui@agenda.co.jp  Sat Jan  3 08:28:46 2009
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From nemey@alfredsolis.com  Mon Jan  5 02:32:42 2009
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From matarj@alum.rpi.edu  Mon Jan  5 05:12:36 2009
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From megan.hatley@ahss.org  Mon Jan  5 12:57:31 2009
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Christian,

Thanks for your (very kind) review.  We'll take care of the
two nits you identified in the next version.

Al and Benoit

At 01:38 AM 1/8/2009, Christian Vogt wrote:
>I have been selected as the General Area Review Team (Gen-ART)
>reviewer for this draft (for background on Gen-ART, please see
>http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/art/gen-art-FAQ.html).
>
>Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
>or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
>
>Document..........:  draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
>Reviewer..........:  Christian Vogt
>Review date.......:  Jan. 7, 2009
>IESG Telechat date:  Jan. 8, 2009
>
>
>Summary:  This draft is ready for publication as Informational RFC.
>
>
>This document compares two widely used metrics for measuring packet
>delay variations, and it provides guidance with respect to when to use
>which of the metrics.
>
>I found the document clearly ready for publication.  It is very
>informative and easy to read.  The comparison and guidelines provided by
>the document are relevant given the resemblance of the observed metrics
>and the variety of use cases to which the metrics potentially apply.
>Furthermore, the document includes an excellent motivation and survey of
>related work; this renders it useful for readers of different levels of
>expertise in the field of performance measuring.  Also, the document is
>perfectly embedded into existing work through a large number of
>well-placed references.
>
>Two nits, which should be fixed prior to publication, are the following:
>
>- Section 1.1, 3rd paragraph:  "Lost and delayed packets are separated
>   by a waiting time threshold." -- Since the waiting time threshold
>   does not only apply to those packets that are lost or delayed, this
>   sentence should be rephrased to:  "Packets for which one-way loss or
>   delay is measured are...".
>
>- Section 3.2, 4th-to-last paragraph:  "The error in the alignment
>   process can be accounted for by a factor, A." -- A is an offset
>   (addend) here, not a factor.
>
>Best regards,
>- Christian
>

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement
	Author(s)       : A. Morton, B. Claise
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-02.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2009-01-08

Packet delay variation metrics appear in many different standards
documents.  The metric definition in RFC 3393 has considerable
flexibility, and it allows multiple formulations of delay variation
through the specification of different packet selection functions.

Although flexibility provides wide coverage and room for new ideas,
it can make comparisons of independent implementations more
difficult.  Two different formulations of delay variation have come
into wide use in the context of active measurements.  This memo
examines a range of circumstances for active measurements of delay
variation and their uses, and recommends which of the two forms is
best matched to particular conditions and tasks.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-02.txt

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From karina.trycd@aig.com  Sat Jan 10 05:54:07 2009
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From maarouf.bellaziznn@amour.fr  Sat Jan 10 07:43:21 2009
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From mysliwiecuethna@advf.com  Mon Jan 12 13:12:18 2009
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From lyoungi@aesbrokers.com  Mon Jan 12 14:23:04 2009
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Subject: [ippm] Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
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I have been selected as the General Area Review Team (Gen-ART)
reviewer for this draft (for background on Gen-ART, please see
http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/art/gen-art-FAQ.html).

Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.


Document..........:  draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
Reviewer..........:  Christian Vogt
Review date.......:  Jan. 7, 2009
IESG Telechat date:  Jan. 8, 2009


Summary:  This draft is ready for publication as Informational RFC.


This document compares two widely used metrics for measuring packet
delay variations, and it provides guidance with respect to when to use
which of the metrics.

I found the document clearly ready for publication.  It is very
informative and easy to read.  The comparison and guidelines provided by
the document are relevant given the resemblance of the observed metrics
and the variety of use cases to which the metrics potentially apply.
Furthermore, the document includes an excellent motivation and survey of
related work; this renders it useful for readers of different levels of
expertise in the field of performance measuring.  Also, the document is
perfectly embedded into existing work through a large number of
well-placed references.

Two nits, which should be fixed prior to publication, are the following:

- Section 1.1, 3rd paragraph:  "Lost and delayed packets are separated
   by a waiting time threshold." -- Since the waiting time threshold
   does not only apply to those packets that are lost or delayed, this
   sentence should be rephrased to:  "Packets for which one-way loss or
   delay is measured are...".

- Section 3.2, 4th-to-last paragraph:  "The error in the alignment
   process can be accounted for by a factor, A." -- A is an offset
   (addend) here, not a factor.

Best regards,
- Christian


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:39:33 +0900
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Subject: [ippm] PAM2009 Student Workshop - Seoul, South Korea, April 1st,
	2009
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[Apologies if you receive this more than once]

                   Call for Papers
              PAM2009 Student Workshop
           Seoul, South Korea, April 1st, 2009
      http://pam2009.kaist.ac.kr/st_workshop.html

The goal of this workshop is to allow students an opportunity to present
ongoing
work and interact with other researchers in order to get feedback, exchange =

experiences, make contacts, and learn about related work. Students not only
will =

be able to learn about other students' work but also interact with well =

established researchers in the field who will participate in the workshop as

mentors and organizers. We are soliciting two-page extended abstracts
(double =

comlumn) on the same topics as covered in the original CFP of PAM 2009.
Submission information is available at: =

http://pam2009.kaist.ac.kr/st_workshop.html.
Submissions will be reviewed by the program committee, from which a number
of
abstracts will be selected for inclusion in the workshop program. Authors
will =

present their work as a poster.

TOPICS OF INTEREST
=A0 * Active Network Measurements
=A0 * Passive Network Measurements
=A0 * Performance Metrics
=A0 * Traffic Statistics
=A0 * Measurement Visualization
=A0 * New Measurement Approaches & Techniques=A0=A0=A0=A0 =

=A0 * Deployment of Measurement Infrastructure
=A0 * New Measurement Initiatives
=A0 * Applications of Network Measurements
=A0 * Network Measurements and Security
=A0 * Network Troubleshooting using Measurements
=A0 * Reproduce (or Refute) Previous Measurement Results

IMPORTANT DEADLINES
=A0 * Paper submission: February 6th, 2009
=A0 * Acceptance notification: February 13th, 2009

WORKSHOP PROGRAM COMMITTEE
=A0 Taesang Choi, ETRI
=A0 Taek-Geun Kwon, Chungnam National University
=A0 Sue Moon, KAIST

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Jan 14 12:31:01 2009
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Subject: [ippm] WG Review: Recharter of IP Performance Metrics (ippm)
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A modified charter has been submitted for the IP Performance Metrics
(ippm) working group in the Transport Area of the IETF.  The IESG has not
made any determination as yet.  The modified charter is provided below for
informational purposes only.  Please send your comments to the IESG
mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by Wednesday, January 21, 2009.

IP Performance Metrics (ippm) 
-------------------------------------------- 
Last Modified: 2008-12-19 
 
Current Status: Active Working Group 
 
Additional information is available at tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm 
 
Chair(s): 
	Matthew Zekauskas [matt@internet2.edu] 
         Henk Uijterwaal [henk@ripe.net] 
 
Transport Area Director(s): 
	Magnus Westerlund magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com]  
         Lars Eggert [lars.eggert@nokia.com] 
 
Transport Area Advisor: 
	Lars Eggert [lars.eggert@nokia.com] 
 
Mailing Lists: 
	General Discussion: ippm@ietf.org  
         To Subscribe: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm  
         In Body: subscribe 
	Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ippm/index.html 
 
 
Description of Working Group: 
 
The IPPM WG has developed a set of standard metrics that can be 
applied to the quality, performance, and reliability of Internet 
data delivery services. These metrics are designed such that they 
can be performed by network operators, end users, or independent 
testing groups. It is important that the metrics not represent a 
value judgment (i.e. define "good" and "bad"), but rather provide 
unbiased quantitative measures of performance. 
 
Functions peripheral to Internet data delivery services, such as 
NOC/NIC services, are beyond the scope of this working group. 
 
The IPPM WG has produced documents that define specific metrics and 
procedures for accurately measuring and documenting these metrics. 
This is the current list of fundamental metrics and the existing 
set of derived metrics. 
 
  - connectivity 
 
  - one-way delay and loss 
 
  - round-trip delay. 
 
  - delay variation 
 
  - loss patterns 
 
  - packet reordering 
 
  - bulk transport capacity 
 
  - link bandwidth capacity 
 
  - packet duplication 
 
The working group will advance these metrics along the standards 
track within the IETF.  It will be guided by applicable IESG documents 
in this area. Additionally, the WG will produce Proposed Standard 
AS documents, comparable to applicability statements in RFC 2026, 
that will focus on procedures for measuring the individual metrics 
and how these metrics characterize features that are important to 
different service classes, such as bulk transport, periodic streams, 
packet bursts or multimedia streams.  Each AS document will discuss 
the performance characteristics that are pertinent to a specified 
service class; clearly identify the set of metrics that aid in the 
description of those characteristics; specify the methodologies 
required to collect said metrics; and lastly, present the requirements 
for the common, unambiguous reporting of testing results.  The AS 
documents can also discuss the use of the metrics to verify performance 
expectations, such as SLA's, report results to specific user groups 
or investigate network problems.  The focus is, again, to define 
how this should be done, not to define a value judgment. The WG may 
define additional statistics for its metrics if needed. Specific 
topics of these AS documents must be approved by the Area Directors 
as charter additions. 
 
The WG will work on documents describing how to compose and decompose 
the results of its metrics over time or space. 
 
The WG has produced protocols to enable communication among test 
equipment that implements the one- and two-way metrics (OWAMP and 
TWAMP respectively).  OWAMP and TWAMP will be advanced along the 
standards track.   Further development of these protocols will also 
be done inside the WG. 
 
The metrics developed by the WG were developed inside an active 
measurement context, that is, the devices used to measure the metrics 
produce their own traffic.  However, most metrics can be used inside 
a passive context as well.  No work is planned is this area though, 
this may be changed with AD approval. 
 
The intent of the WG is to cooperate with other appropriate standards 
bodies and forums (such as ATIS IIF, ITU-T SG 12, 13 and 15, MEF) 
to promote consistent approaches and metrics. Within the IETF 
process, IPPM metrics definitions will be subject to as rigorous a 
scrutiny for usefulness, clarity, and accuracy as other protocol 
standards. The IPPM WG will interact with other areas of IETF 
activity whose scope intersect with the requirement of these specific 
metrics.  The WG will, on request, provide input to other IETF WG 
on the use of these metrics.

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At 03:30 PM 1/14/2009, IESG Secretary wrote:
>...The working group will advance these metrics along the standards
>track within the IETF.  It will be guided by applicable IESG documents
>in this area. Additionally, the WG will produce Proposed Standard
>AS documents, comparable to applicability statements in RFC 2026,
>that will focus on procedures for measuring the individual metrics
>and how these metrics characterize features that are important to
>different service classes, such as bulk transport, periodic streams,
>packet bursts or multimedia streams.  Each AS document will discuss...
<more of this paragraph below>


I think there may be some confusion about the role of AS memos
in IPPM, and possibly it is just my confusion, but let's find out.
This discussion may end-up as a comment on the charter text.

Should the Delay Variation AS draft have been a Standards Track memo?
(It is currently categorized as Informational)

It fits the description in the charter, except that I thought it
made more sense as a non-standards track document, because we have
a challenge ahead of us to advance our TS metrics along the stds track.
I didn't see any need to verify the material in the delay-var-AS
draft against implementations (but that's not needed for AS?).
Also, we have some elements of the AS charter description in our
current TS metrics documents (RFC 2026 allows for this possibility);
methods of measurement come to mind.

So, while I think IPPM can live with the current Informational status,
I may have made a mistake in the categorization of the delay-var-as memo,
and I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the topic.

thanks and regards,
Al

<complete charter paragraph follows>
The working group will advance these metrics along the standards
track within the IETF.  It will be guided by applicable IESG documents
in this area. Additionally, the WG will produce Proposed Standard
AS documents, comparable to applicability statements in RFC 2026,
that will focus on procedures for measuring the individual metrics
and how these metrics characterize features that are important to
different service classes, such as bulk transport, periodic streams,
packet bursts or multimedia streams.  Each AS document will discuss
the performance characteristics that are pertinent to a specified
service class; clearly identify the set of metrics that aid in the
description of those characteristics; specify the methodologies
required to collect said metrics; and lastly, present the requirements
for the common, unambiguous reporting of testing results.  The AS
documents can also discuss the use of the metrics to verify performance
expectations, such as SLA's, report results to specific user groups
or investigate network problems.  The focus is, again, to define
how this should be done, not to define a value judgment. The WG may
define additional statistics for its metrics if needed. Specific
topics of these AS documents must be approved by the Area Directors
as charter additions.


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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 16 00:29:05 2009
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Cc: K.Aldinger-Stein@telekom.de, ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Review: Recharter of IP Performance Metrics  (ippm)
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Al,

from my recollection of the IPDV metric, RFC3393 only determines that 
there must be a selction function F by which one defines an IPDV metric
based on a set of delay singletons. The AS draft discusses two 
different selection functions and recommends one. The AS draft as is 
discusses constructed examples, so I don't think it qualifies for a 
BCP, which I think may be another option where to go with it besides 
standards track. 

The selection function of RFC3393 allows for flexibility and may be 
useful to allow for search of the "perfect" IPDV specification. 
On the other hand, flexibility opens a door for incompatibility. 
So there's a point in determining a selection function for IPDV 
and making it a standard.

Regards,

Ruediger



-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Al Morton
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 4:57 PM
To: henk@ripe.net; matt@internet2.edu; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Review: Recharter of IP Performance Metrics (ippm)

At 03:30 PM 1/14/2009, IESG Secretary wrote:
>...The working group will advance these metrics along the standards
>track within the IETF.  It will be guided by applicable IESG documents
>in this area. Additionally, the WG will produce Proposed Standard
>AS documents, comparable to applicability statements in RFC 2026,
>that will focus on procedures for measuring the individual metrics
>and how these metrics characterize features that are important to
>different service classes, such as bulk transport, periodic streams,
>packet bursts or multimedia streams.  Each AS document will discuss...
<more of this paragraph below>


I think there may be some confusion about the role of AS memos
in IPPM, and possibly it is just my confusion, but let's find out.
This discussion may end-up as a comment on the charter text.

Should the Delay Variation AS draft have been a Standards Track memo?
(It is currently categorized as Informational)

It fits the description in the charter, except that I thought it
made more sense as a non-standards track document, because we have
a challenge ahead of us to advance our TS metrics along the stds track.
I didn't see any need to verify the material in the delay-var-AS
draft against implementations (but that's not needed for AS?).
Also, we have some elements of the AS charter description in our
current TS metrics documents (RFC 2026 allows for this possibility);
methods of measurement come to mind.

So, while I think IPPM can live with the current Informational status,
I may have made a mistake in the categorization of the delay-var-as memo,
and I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the topic.

thanks and regards,
Al

<complete charter paragraph follows>
The working group will advance these metrics along the standards
track within the IETF.  It will be guided by applicable IESG documents
in this area. Additionally, the WG will produce Proposed Standard
AS documents, comparable to applicability statements in RFC 2026,
that will focus on procedures for measuring the individual metrics
and how these metrics characterize features that are important to
different service classes, such as bulk transport, periodic streams,
packet bursts or multimedia streams.  Each AS document will discuss
the performance characteristics that are pertinent to a specified
service class; clearly identify the set of metrics that aid in the
description of those characteristics; specify the methodologies
required to collect said metrics; and lastly, present the requirements
for the common, unambiguous reporting of testing results.  The AS
documents can also discuss the use of the metrics to verify performance
expectations, such as SLA's, report results to specific user groups
or investigate network problems.  The focus is, again, to define
how this should be done, not to define a value judgment. The WG may
define additional statistics for its metrics if needed. Specific
topics of these AS documents must be approved by the Area Directors
as charter additions.


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From moukadercnn@anadolu.edu.tr  Sun Jan 18 07:27:18 2009
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From ontrose@aa4df.com  Mon Jan 19 10:13:16 2009
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From mac66@45mm.com  Mon Jan 19 10:14:49 2009
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From mawoolaway@alexander-kreis.de  Mon Jan 19 11:17:21 2009
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From marina.marchionidd@agrileasing.it  Mon Jan 19 12:29:01 2009
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From mhehicks@amerireach.com  Mon Jan 19 17:11:52 2009
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From n.baskaran@altuwairqi.com  Tue Jan 20 00:04:48 2009
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                                Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 7, B720. 093 Clements Road. London. SE67 7DG
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From karen.barfield@accenturehrservices.com  Tue Jan 20 05:43:48 2009
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                                Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B994. 347 Clements Road. London. SE25 6DG
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From richard@clearview.be  Tue Jan 20 09:48:38 2009
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Subject: You and a Gucci watch
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Dear Lucia,

Looking for a Tag Heuer? How about getting two, one for you and one for your spouse?
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Sincerely,
Mr Bourgeois




From kelvin_wongn@amax.com  Tue Jan 20 15:33:39 2009
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From jemovie@advest.com  Tue Jan 20 16:18:24 2009
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From austin@quakervalleyfoods.com  Tue Jan 20 21:44:12 2009
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Subject: You can save 80% on Franck Muller
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:43:37 -0500
From: "Virgil Lacey" <ipoverib-request@ietf.org>
To: "Dolores Horne" <ipoverib-request@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Dolores,

Looking for a IWC? How about getting two, one for you and one for your spouse?
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Sincerely,
Mr Horne


From kata@akcio.co.hu  Wed Jan 21 01:43:17 2009
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From olivier.dole@access-company.com  Wed Jan 21 05:49:29 2009
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From j.vanrijnd@andreascollege.nl  Wed Jan 21 11:05:31 2009
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From moonbeam@alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Jan 22 03:28:58 2009
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From jwkim@alusash.co.kr  Thu Jan 22 04:45:33 2009
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Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement '
   <draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-02.txt> as an Informational RFC

This document is the product of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Lars Eggert and Magnus Westerlund.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-02.txt

Technical Summary

Packet delay variation metrics appear in many different standards
documents.  The metric definition in RFC 3393 has considerable
flexibility, and it allows multiple formulations of delay variation
through the specification of different packet selection functions.
Although flexibility provides wide coverage and room for new ideas,
it can make comparisons of independent implementations more
difficult.  Two different formulations of delay variation have come
into wide use in the context of active measurements.  This memo
examines a range of circumstances for active measurements of delay
variation and their uses, and recommends which of the two forms is
best matched to particular conditions and tasks.

Working Group Summary

This document was suggested after a talk on this topic at IETF-65.  
There was no controversy in the WG process.  Consensus was smooth.

Personnel

The document shepherd is Henk Uijterwaal (henk@ripe.net). Lars
Eggert (lars.eggert@nokia.com) has reviewed this document for the IESG.

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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:42:51 -0500
From: Matthew J Zekauskas <matt@internet2.edu>
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The IETF Chair has asked that all working group members be advised of
the current discussion surrounding RFC 5378 (see attached forwarded
file).  A pointer to the original message is here:
<http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg54839.html>
and apparently also
<http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/Background-to-Draft-Update-to-IETF-Trust-Legal-Provisions.txt>


Marshall Eubanks sent the following summary to his working group:

      "... This is a complicated subject, but the executive summary is
that if you have an Internet-draft that quotes substantially from one or
more older RFCs (ones with a publication date pre-November 11, 2008),
and you did not write this earlier work yourself (or you wrote it while
with another company), you need to be aware of the likely difficulty of
obtaining RFC5378 clearances for your new work, and also to be aware
that a work-around is on the way. The work-around should be in place to
allow submissions to the San Francisco IETF well before the normal
deadlines. See the attached text for more details."

It may be that quoting other contributions (email, mic discussion) could
also require clearance.

Eric Rescorla added more detail in the message to his working group:

     "If you've been following the IETF mailing list, you may be aware
of the ongoing discussion about the impact of RFC 5378 on revised draft
submissions. Briefly, RFC 5378 requires Contributors to grant a more
expansive set of rights than were granted by RFC 3978, and 4748. If you
are submitting a document which contains text contributed by others
prior to the publication of RFC 5378 you may need to obtain additional
rights from the copyright holders of that text in order to contribute
under the 5378 terms."

My understanding is that this does not prevent development of documents,
only what rights need to be granted at RFC publication (and the
additional rights are for potential use outside the IETF process), so it
should not stop work.  (Eric added that he was waiting for the
resolution before publishing further drafts, however.)  Russ Housley
gave some advice in a separate message:
<http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg54957.html>

Discussion about specific points relating to IPPM documents are welcome
here.  Discussion about RFC 5378 and any changes to RFC 5378 should be
taken to the IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, and are off-topic on
the ippm list.

If anyone feels this is a major problem for them, please let the chairs
know.

--Matt

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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your review and
	comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem
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WG Chairs:

Please make sure that your WG, and especially your document authors, 
are aware of this situation.  Please follow the discussion on the 
IETF Discussion list, and keep the WG informed about the way forward 
as it develops.

Thanks,
   Russ


>From: "Ed Juskevicius" <edj.etc@gmail.com>
>To: "'IETF Discussion'" <ietf@ietf.org>, <ietf-announce@ietf.org>,
>         <iesg@ietf.org>, <iab@iab.org>, <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>,
>         <wgchairs@ietf.org>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:43:50 -0500
>Cc: 'Trustees' <trustees@ietf.org>
>Subject: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your review and
>         comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem
>
>The purpose of this message is twofold:
>
>1) To summarize the issues that some members of our community
>    have experienced since the publication of RFC 5378 in November 2008,
>    and
>2) To invite community review and discussion on a potential work-around
>    being considered by the IETF Trustees.
>
>Some I-D authors are having difficulty implementing RFC 5378.  An
>example of the difficulty is as follows:
>
>   - an author wants to include pre-5378 content in a new submission
>     or contribution to the IETF, but
>   - s/he is not certain that all of the author(s) of the earlier
>     material have agreed to license it to the IETF Trust according
>     to RFC 5378.
>
>If an I-D author includes pre-5378 material in a new document, then s/he
>must represent or warrant that all of the authors who created the
>pre-5378 material have granted rights for that material to the IETF Trust.
>If s/he cannot make this assertion, then s/he has a problem.
>
>This situation has halted the progression of some Internet-Drafts and
>interrupted the publication of some RFCs.  The Trustees of the IETF Trust
>are investigating ways to implement a temporary work-around so that IETF
>work can continue to progress.  A permanent solution to this "pre-5378
>problem" may require an update to RFC 5378, for example new work by the
>community to create a 5378-bis document.
>
>The remainder of this message provides an outline of the temporary work-
>around being considered by the Trustees.
>
>RFC 5378 sections 1.j and 5.3.c provide the IETF Trust with the
>authority to develop legend text for authors to use in situations where
>they wish to limit the granting of rights to modify and prepare
>derivatives of the documents they submit.  The Trustees used this
>authority in 2008 to develop and adopt the current "Legal Provisions
>Relating to IETF Documents" which are posted at:
>http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info/.
>
>The Trustees are now considering the creation of optional new legend text
>which could be used by authors experiencing the "pre-5378 problem".
>
>The new legend text, if implemented, would do the following:
>
>   a. Provide Authors and Contributors with a way to identify (to the
>      IETF Trust) that their contributions contain material from pre-5378
>      documents for which RFC 5378 rights to modify the material outside
>      the IETF standards process may not have been granted, and
>
>   b. Provide the IETF Trust and the community with a clear indication
>      of every document containing pre-5378 content and having the
>      "pre-5378 problem".
>
>So, how could the creation and use of some new legend text help people
>work-around the pre-5378 problem?
>
>The proposed answer is as follows:
>
>   1. Anyone having a contribution with the "pre-5378" problem should add
>      new legend text to the contribution, to clearly flag that it includes
>      pre-5378 material for which all of the rights needed under RFC 5378
>      may not have been granted, and
>
>   2. The IETF Trust will consider authors and contributors (with the
>      pre-5378 problem) to have met their RFC 5378 obligations if the
>      new legend text appears on their documents, and
>
>   3. Authors and contributors should only resort to adding the new
>      legend text to their documents (per #1) if they cannot develop
>      certainty that all of the author(s) of pre-5378 material in
>      their documents have agreed to license the pre-5378 content to
>      the IETF Trust according to RFC 5378.
>
>The proposed wording for the new legend text is now available for your
>review and comments in section 6.c.iii of a draft revision to the
>IETF Trust's "Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents" located at
>http://trustee.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html.
>
>Please note that the above document also contains new text in section 5.c
>dealing with "License Limitations".
>
>If your review and feedback on this proposed work-around is positive,
>then the new text may be adopted by the Trustees in early February 2009,
>and then be published as an official revision to the Legal Provisions
>document.  If so adopted, Internet-Drafts with pre-5378 material may
>advance within the Internet standards process and get published as RFCs
>where otherwise qualified to do so.  Unless covered by sections 6.c.i or
>6.c.ii, authors of documents in which there is no pre-5378
>material must provide a RFC 5378 license with no limitation on
>modifications outside the IETF standards process.
>
>The IETF Trust will not grant the right to modify or prepare derivative
>works of any specific RFC or other IETF Contribution outside the IETF
>standards process until RFC 5378 rights pertaining to that document have
>been obtained from all authors and after compliance by the IETF Trust
>with RFC 5377.  The Trustees will establish one or more mechanisms by
>which authors of pre-5378 documents may grant RFC 5378 rights.
>
>The Trustees hereby invite your review, comments and suggestions on this
>proposed work-around to the "pre-5378 problem".  The period for this review
>is 30 days.  Microsoft WORD and PDF versions of the proposed revisions are
>attached to this message.  Copies are also available on the IETF Trust
>website under the heading "DRAFT Policy and Procedures Being Developed" at:
>http://trustee.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html
>
>All feedback submitted before the end of February 7th will be considered by
>the Trustees.  A decision on whether to move forward with this proposal will
>be made and communicated to you before the end of February 15th.
>
>Please give this your attention.
>
>Regards and Happy New Year !
>
>Ed Juskevicius, on behalf of the IETF Trustees
>edj.etc@gmail.com


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_______________________________________________
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Cc: Henk Uijterwaal <henk@ripe.net>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Publication request: draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-06.txt
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The IETF IPPM working group requests publication of
draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-06 as a proposed standard.

Matt Zekauskas <matt@internet2.edu> will be Document Shepherd.

The Document Shepherd writeup is attached.

--Matt

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Document shepherd writeup for draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-06.txt, as required
by rfc4858, and specfied in the 17-Sep-2008 version of <http://www.ietf.org/IESG/content/Doc-Writeup.html>.

    (1.a) Who is the Document Shepherd for this document? Has the 
          Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the 
          document and, in particular, does he or she believe this 
          version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication? 

The document shepherd is Matt Zekauskas <matt@internet2.edu>
The document shepherd has personally reviewed this document and
believes this version is read for forwarding to the IESG for
publication.

    (1.b) Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members 
          and from key non-WG members? Does the Document Shepherd have 
          any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that 
          have been performed? 

I believe the document has received sufficent review from key WG
members.  I don't believe there are key non-WG members that need to
review the document; I did ask Dave Thalor about IPv6 terminology to
make sure we were consistent.  I have no concerns about the depth or
breadth of reivews for this document.

    (1.c) Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document 
          needs more review from a particular or broader perspective, 
          e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with 
          AAA, internationalization or XML? 

no.

    (1.d) Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or 
          issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director 
          and/or the IESG should be aware of? For example, perhaps he 
          or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or 
          has concerns whether there really is a need for it. In any 
          event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated 
          that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those 
          concerns here. Has an IPR disclosure related to this document 
          been filed? If so, please include a reference to the 
          disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on 
          this issue. 

I know of no unusual conerns of which the AD and IESG in general should
be aware.

I know of no IPR disclosures related to this document.

    (1.e) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it 
          represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with 
          others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and 
          agree with it? 

I believe this document fills a missing hole in the IPPM metrics, and there
is fairly broad consensus for this document.  There have been reviews and
comment by the vocal members.

    (1.f) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme 
          discontent? If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in 
          separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director. (It 
          should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is 
          entered into the ID Tracker.) 

no.

    (1.g) Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the 
          document satisfies all ID nits? (See 
          http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html and 
          http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/). Boilerplate checks are 
          not enough; this check needs to be thorough. Has the document 
          met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB 
          Doctor, media type and URI type reviews? 

Yes, however one reference currently in the "informative" catagory
should be moved to normative based on the last revision.  See next.

    (1.h) Has the document split its references into normative and 
          informative? Are there normative references to documents that 
          are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear 
          state? If such normative references exist, what is the 
          strategy for their completion? Are there normative references 
          that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]? If 
          so, list these downward references to support the Area 
          Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967]. 

The references are split into normative and non-normative.  However,
the last revision moved one reference [RFC3432] from "Informative" to
"Normative".  We discussed this with our AD, and believe that it can
be corrected either in updates based on comments from the IETF-wide
last call, or during the RFC editing process.  There are no "downard
references" nor references to drafts.

    (1.i) Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA 
          consideration section exists and is consistent with the body 
          of the document? If the document specifies protocol 
          extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA 
          registries? Are the IANA registries clearly identified? If 
          the document creates a new registry, does it define the 
          proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation 
          procedure for future registrations? Does it suggest a 
          reasonable name for the new registry? See [RFC5226]. If the 
          document describes an Expert Review process has Shepherd 
          conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG 
          can appoint the needed Expert during the IESG Evaluation? 

The IANA consideration section exists, and is consistent with the
metrics registry rquiremetns it references.

    (1.j) Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the 
          document that are written in a formal language, such as XML 
          code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in 
          an automated checker? 

There are no such sections.

    (1.k) The IESG approval announcement includes a Document 
          Announcement Write-Up. Please provide such a Document 
          Announcement Write-Up? Recent examples can be found in the
          "Action" announcements for approved documents. The approval 
          announcement contains the following sections: 

          Technical Summary 
             Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract 
             and/or introduction of the document. If not, this may be 
             an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract 
             or introduction. 

When a packet is sent from one host to the other, one normally
expects that exactly one copy of the packet that was sent arrives
at the destination.  It is, however, possible that a packet is
either lost or that multiple copies arrive.  This document defines
a metric for the case where a packet is sent, but multiple copies
arrive.  The document also discusses streams and methods to
summarize the results of streams.


          Working Group Summary 
             Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting? For 
             example, was there controversy about particular points or 
             were there decisions where the consensus was particularly 
             rough? 

This document was suggested when creating a succint summary of IPPM
metrics for reporting to users; this was one that was missing from the
IPPM metric suite.  There is consensus that this is the right definition.
There has been some question as to whether the definition is crisp and
unambiguous for both IPv4 and IPv6, and the document has been modified
to address those concerns.

          Document Quality 
             Are there existing implementations of the protocol? Have a 
             significant number of vendors indicated their plan to 
             implement the specification? Are there any reviewers that 
             merit special mention as having done a thorough review, 
             e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a 
             conclusion that the document had no substantive issues? If 
             there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review, 
             what was its course (briefly)? In the case of a Media Type 
             review, on what date was the request posted? 

I know of no current implementations that claim to implement this metric.
However, vendors in the working group have read and agreed with the
specification.




 

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From gjs@dgasecurity.com  Thu Jan 22 10:02:04 2009
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Hi,

I re-reviewed this, because it has changed quite a bit since -03. I  
have one issue that I think we should fix before IETF last call, which  
is:

Section 2.7., paragraph 1:
 >    Refer to section 2.7 of [RFC2680]

   Section 2.7 of [RFC2680] contains a lot of stuff that doesn't seem to
   be relevant to duplication. We may need to extract the relevant bits
   and place them here. (The other sections in this document that refer
   to 2680/3432 point to sections there that seem general enough.)


I have some other, minor comments that we could either also address  
now or in parallel with an IETF last call:


Section 2.4., paragraph 2:
 >    o  Both contain identical information fields.  The recipient thus
 >       could take either packet and use the data in an application.   
The
 >       other packet does not contain any additional information.
...
 >    The recipient thus could take either packet and use it in an
 >    application, the other copy does not contain any additional
 >    information.

   Same text appears in the first bullet above. Copy/paste issue?


Section 2.4., paragraph 5:
 >    If a packet is fragmented during transport and if, for whatever
 >    reason, re-assembly does not occur, then the packet will be deemed
 >    lost.  It is thus not included in the Type-P-one-way-packet- 
arrival-
 >    count.

   I'm a bit confused by the "re-assembly does not occur" part. Couldn't
   we simply say that this metric can on only be meaningfully applied to
   IP packets  after reassembly?


Section 2.5., paragraph 3:
 >    If this metrics is used in parallel with the Packet Loss Metric
 >    [RFC2680], the value of T0 should be the same for both cases in  
order
 >    to keep the results comparable.

   s/should/SHOULD/ (and why not MUST?)


Section 9.2., paragraph 2:
 >    [RFC3432]  Raisanen, V., Grotefeld, G., and A. Morton, "Network
 >               performance measurement with periodic streams", RFC  
3432,
 >               November 2002.

   This must become a normative reference, because 4.2.5, 4.2.6 and  
4.2.7
   simply point off to it.


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From kelli@dkwebconcepts.com  Fri Jan 23 09:38:00 2009
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Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:10:20 -0500
From: Matthew J Zekauskas <matt@internet2.edu>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] FYI: Issues with RFC 5378 and progressing documents to RFC
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The latest update.  Again, to discuss this particular issue, please go
to the general IETF list, ietf@ietf.org.

--Matt

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From: "Ed Juskevicius" <edj.etc@gmail.com>
To: <ietf@ietf.org>, <ietf-announce@ietf.org>, <wgchairs@ietf.org>,
	<iab@iab.org>, <iesg@ietf.org>, <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your comments on revised
	proposed legend text to work-around the Pre-5378 Problem
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:29:33 -0500
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This message is in follow-up to the IETF Trustees' request for community
review (announced on January 6, 2009) on some new legend text intended to
help authors work around the "pre-5378 problem".  

Please recall that some I-D authors have experienced difficulty implementing
RFC5378 since it was published on November 10, 2008.  An example of the
difficulty is summarized below:
  - an author wants to include pre-5378 content in a new submission
    or contribution to the IETF, but
  - the author is not able to assert that every author of the pre-5378
    content has agreed (or would agree) to license the earlier material
    for use outside of the IETF Standards Process

As a result of the above situation, many authors have reported they can not
submit or progress new contributions, because the legend text authorized by
the Trustees in November 2008 had no provisions for dealing with this
"pre-5378" problem. 

The Trustees met with legal counsel on January 22nd to discuss the comments
and suggestions which you have provided since January 6th.  We have received
many excellent suggestions for ways to clarify and improve the draft legend
text, and we are grateful for this.  

Based on the feedback received to date, the Trustees are now proposing a few
changes to the draft legend text. 

The 'old' legend text (as posted for community review on 2009-01-06) was:

> 6. Text To Be Included in IETF Documents
> c. Derivative Works and Publication Limitations
> iii.  If a Contribution includes Pre-5378 Material and the Contributor
> does not wish to allow modifications of such Pre-5378 Material to be
> made outside the IETF Standards Process:
>
> This document contains material from IETF Documents or IETF Contributions
> published before November 10, 2008 and, to the Contributor's knowledge,
> the person(s) controlling the copyright in such material have not granted
> the IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside
> the IETF Standards Process.  Without obtaining an adequate license from
> the person(s) controlling the copyright, this document may not be modified
> outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may not be
> created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format it for
> publication as an RFC and to translate it into languages other than
> English.

The updated proposed legend text based on the discussion to date is as
follows: 

This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF Contributions
published or made publicly available before November 10, 2008. The person(s)
controlling the copyright in some of this material may not have granted the
IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside the
IETF Standards Process. Without obtaining an adequate license from the
person(s) controlling the copyright in such materials, this document may not
be modified outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it
may not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format it
for publication as an RFC and to translate it into languages other than
English.

The Trustees invite your comments on the updated proposed legend text. We
believe the updated text incorporates the feedback we have received to date,
and we hope it clarifies the proposed legend.

The Trustees will meet again in early February to decide on whether to
revise the Trust License Policy based on the ongoing community discussion.
If so decided, a revision to the Trust's "Legal Provisions Relating to IETF
Documents" policy will be published.  Please refer to the attached PDF file
for an example of how the Legal Provisions document might look if today's
update to proposed legend text is adopted. A softcopy is available on the
IETF Trust website under the heading "DRAFT Policy and Procedures Being
Developed" at:
http://trustee.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html 

If you have any comments on the updated proposed legend text, please post
them before the end of February 7th.  The Trustees need to decide on whether
to adopt the proposed legend text, and then communicate our decision to you
on or before February 15th.

Please give this your attention.

Regards,

Ed Juskevicius, on behalf of the IETF Trustees
edj.etc@gmail.com

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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jan 26 01:44:46 2009
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Hi,

> Section 2.7., paragraph 1:
>  >    Refer to section 2.7 of [RFC2680]
> 
>   Section 2.7 of [RFC2680] contains a lot of stuff that doesn't seem to
>   be relevant to duplication. We may need to extract the relevant bits
>   and place them here. (The other sections in this document that refer
>   to 2680/3432 point to sections there that seem general enough.)

I've tried that and then ended up with about half the text of 2680.  What
did survive, didn't make much sense anymore, so the whole section had to
be re-written.  And then nobody would realize that this was simply extracted
from 2680 anymore.

Looking at it from a more practical point of view.  I'd expect that this
metric is used as part of a measurement system that measures properties
of packets (delay, loss, jitter, reordering, duplication).  The tricky
part is to set up the delay, with all clock issues related to that.  Once
you have done that, all others are simple.  Some of the clock stuff for
delay may be overkill for the other metrics, but who cares?


> Section 2.4., paragraph 2:
>   Same text appears in the first bullet above. Copy/paste issue?

Yes, fixed.  This is probably caused by having to do 3 versions with
very small changes over a relatively long period.

> Section 2.4., paragraph 5:
>  >    If a packet is fragmented during transport and if, for whatever
>  >    reason, re-assembly does not occur, then the packet will be deemed
>  >    lost.  It is thus not included in the Type-P-one-way-packet-arrival-
>  >    count.
> 
>   I'm a bit confused by the "re-assembly does not occur" part. Couldn't
>   we simply say that this metric can on only be meaningfully applied to
>   IP packets  after reassembly?

I don't think the latter is correct.  Suppose a packet A is split into A1
and A2.  A1 is duplicated during transport, A2 isn't.  My receiver thus
gets A1, A2, A1*.  It merges A1 and A2, then has A1* left in its buffers
and will be waiting for the other half to arrive.  One could argue that
there is duplication and Type-P-o-w-p-a-c should be >1.

In the metric, we have decided to consider these remnants lost and set
the value to 1.




> Section 2.5., paragraph 3: 
>   s/should/SHOULD/ (and why not MUST?)

MUST is indeed better.  (At least I cannot think of a reason why you would
use different timeouts).

> 
> 
> Section 9.2., paragraph 2:
>   This must become a normative reference, because 4.2.5, 4.2.6 and 4.2.7
>   simply point off to it.

Fixed.

I have a -07 version on my laptop ready to go if there are no further
comments.

Henk


-- 
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Hi,

On 2009-1-26, at 11:29, Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
>> Section 2.4., paragraph 5:
>>>   If a packet is fragmented during transport and if, for whatever
>>>   reason, re-assembly does not occur, then the packet will be deemed
>>>   lost.  It is thus not included in the Type-P-one-way-packet- 
>>> arrival-
>>>   count.
>>
>>  I'm a bit confused by the "re-assembly does not occur" part.  
>> Couldn't
>>  we simply say that this metric can on only be meaningfully applied  
>> to
>>  IP packets  after reassembly?
>
> I don't think the latter is correct.  Suppose a packet A is split  
> into A1
> and A2.  A1 is duplicated during transport, A2 isn't.  My receiver  
> thus
> gets A1, A2, A1*.  It merges A1 and A2, then has A1* left in its  
> buffers
> and will be waiting for the other half to arrive.  One could argue  
> that
> there is duplication and Type-P-o-w-p-a-c should be >1.
>
> In the metric, we have decided to consider these remnants lost and set
> the value to 1.

right, that's exactly what I was trying to express. The metric only  
applies to packets after reassembly, and because no A2* is received,  
there is no duplicate.

I may have simply been confused by the wording in the draft, but if it  
was clear to everyone else so far, leave it as-is.

> I have a -07 version on my laptop ready to go if there are no further
> comments.

Submit it and we'll go to IETF last call then.

Thanks,
Lars
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Hi Lars,

>> I have a -07 version on my laptop ready to go if there are no further
>> comments.
> 
> Submit it and we'll go to IETF last call then.

Done.

Henk

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : A One-Way Packet Duplication Metric
	Author(s)       : H. Uijterwaal
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-07.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2009-01-27

When a packet is sent from one host to the other, one normally
expects that exactly one copy of the packet that was sent arrives at
the destination.  It is, however, possible that a packet is either
lost or that multiple copies arrive.

In earlier work a metric for packet loss has been defined.  This
metric quantifies the case where a packet that is sent, does not
arrive at its destination within a reasonable time.  In this memo, a
metric for another case is defined: a packet is sent, but multiple
copies arrive.  The document also discusses streams and methods to
summarize the results of streams.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-07.txt

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Subject: [ippm] Getting ready for San Fransisco
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IPPM group,

We're about 2 months away from our next meeting in San Fransisco, which
means that now is the time to start preparing it.

1. If you want to present something in SF, please send us a note and
    we'll put you on the agenda.

2. Our new charter will probably be approved in the next weeks or so.  There
    is consensus about the text.  That means that we are ready to accept drafts
    under the new charter.  If you do plan to write a draft, please let us
    know.  Include title, authors, ETA for the first and final versions, etc.

3. We do have a few open items from Minneapolis.

     = Roman to review the composition drafts.
     = Al to ask the list for feedback on the Reflect Octets feature and
        the individual session control for TWAMP

4. Things your chairs did since MPLS:

     1. The duplicate draft is on the desk of the IESG.
     2. The delay variation AS document passed the IESG and is on its
        way to become a RFC.
     3. The new charter.

5. Things your chairs still plan to do before SF (in random order):
     1. WGLC on the composition draft
     2. Forward the multimetrics draft to the IESG
     3. Add milestones to our new charter.
     4. WGLC on the more TWAMP draft.

Matt & Henk


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From mia.crooks@allianceoneinc.com  Tue Jan 27 03:27:13 2009
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Jan 27 07:10:16 2009
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The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Metrics WG 
(ippm) to consider the following document:

- 'A One-Way Packet Duplication Metric '
   <draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-07.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-02-10. Exceptionally, 
comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-07.txt


IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=15953&rfc_flag=0

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Subject: Superior rep watches for you
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:57:27 -0500
From: "Floyd Lyles" <ipoverib-request@ietf.org>
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Dear Caitlin,

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Our Omega watches have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original.

Sincerely,
Mr Masters


From l.rr.com.-tnay@57.mailmx02.com  Wed Jan 28 05:04:12 2009
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From 201@dirtecdirac.com  Wed Jan 28 12:00:18 2009
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:59:28 -0500
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Dear Leanne,

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From kurosawa@aa.isas.ne.jp  Wed Jan 28 13:59:18 2009
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From crow@syonic.com  Thu Jan 29 14:09:04 2009
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From: "Luella North" <ipoverib-request@ietf.org>
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Subject: New rep watches delivered fast
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Dear Dominic,

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From amanda.searle@leap-frog.co.uk  Thu Jan 29 21:58:00 2009
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:57:12 -0800
From: "Louella Jernigan" <ipoverib-request@ietf.org>
To: "Edwin Vazquez" <ipoverib-request@ietf.org>
Subject: Get your Omega watch now
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Dear Edwin,

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